[Faith-talk] Life and Religion

Fri Jun 3 17:16:38 UTC 2016

Good afternoon.  

Hello, Ashley.  Good to see a familiar name to me from other places in the blindness community.  

By way of introduction, I am the secretary of the NFB chapter in Daytona Beach, Florida.  

Recently I was appointed to the disability committee at the church where my mother and I attend.  We hope to make the church's programs and facilities more accessible and welcoming to people with all disabilities, including blindness.  

As for Mustapha's comments on faith, it will be helpful for him to understand religion is  not established as an arm of the government, especially here in America. Even in Western countries where there has been an established church, its role has become much more diminished.  The problems which resulted from undue influence of established churches were what drove the establishment and free exercise clauses in the Bill of Rights to the U. S. Constitution to be written as they are.  

This means the people are free to exercise faith or not, as they may determine by their own conscience.  The state apparatus is not supposed to unduly favor a particular theology, although laws may have a moral as well as practical basis.  

Faith should not be by compulsion, and the Kingdom of God, however we perceive it, in my case a Christian perception, should if anywhere reside within ourselves first spiritually.  This would best enable East and West to co-exist.  

Bill Outman 

-----Original Message-----
From: Faith-Talk [mailto:faith-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett via Faith-Talk
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 7:59 PM
To: Faith-talk, for the discussion of faith and religion
Cc: Ashley Bramlett
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Life and Religion

Brandon,

Good points and questions. I am offended by most of what Mostafa writes although some of his explanation  of Islam can be informative.
I was offended by his statement that beliefs  in the west are unestablished. 
We have many religions in America and in Canada from what I hear and I cannot speak for Europe, but the people I know from Europe do have an established faith, usually a Christian denomination.

I believe he is on here to just spread his views, not dialogue.
He posts random stuff about religion and especially Islam on the ACB chat list I'm on.
But no one responds there either.

In the past, we have just ignored him.

I think you raise good questions for some one who wants to dialogue or understand his views better, but I do not think he wants that.

Hope all had a nice memorial day.

Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: Brandon Olivares via Faith-talk
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 3:34 PM
To: Faith-talk,for the discussion of faith and religion
Cc: Brandon Olivares
Subject: Re: [Faith-talk] Life and Religion

I want to reply to a few points. There’s a ton to reply to, but if I did, it would be a very long email indeed.

> Religious beliefs are unestablished in the west. This is why you see 
> lots of people attempting to abandon and embrace various religions 
> simultaneously. I noticed lots of people who alternate religions, not 
> knowing what to infinitely embrace. Religion in the west is temporal 
> and experimental. The west does not like what we are satisfied with.

Why is this a bad thing? Why should we find something to “infinitely  embrace”? Why shouldn’t beliefs be “temporal and experimental”?

You state these as facts without any reasoning as to why this is a bad or undesirable thing.

> the formal commendation of same gender marriage

Same as above. Why is this bad? Some people see it as progress, myself included.

> the west does not regard religion as it should be regarded. I do not 
> necessarily consider that right or wrong, I am just reporting facts.

Uh, no you are not just reporting the facts. The word “should” points to an opinion, because the facts never have a “should” or any kind of judgment. 
“Should” according to whom?

So I’ll ask the hidden question directly: Why should religion be regarded differently than what it is?

That’s enough for now I think. I hope to see a genuine answer. If you truly want intellectual discussion, then please don’t write off my questions.

Brandon
> On May 30, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Mostafa via Faith-talk 
> <faith-talk at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> This is a continuum of what I commenced. As we can observe, religion 
> is collectively abandoned in the west due to numerously contravened 
> beliefs and philosophical concepts. This is a recognisable phenomenon. 
> People in the west are heavily uncertain about what to determine in 
> faith. Religious beliefs are unestablished in the west. This is why 
> you see lots of people attempting to abandon and embrace various 
> religions simultaneously. I noticed lots of people who alternate 
> religions, not knowing what to infinitely embrace. Religion in the 
> west is temporal and experimental. The west does not like what we are 
> satisfied with. Their thirst for genuine faith has not yet been 
> quenched. Of course, they will argue to attempt proving otherwise but, 
> their argument is based on indecisiveness. This is why we see lots of 
> moral corruption in the west. Yes, the west adheres basic principles 
> of morality but, it does not get any conservation in their family 
> disassociation, illicit and irregular relationships and, the formal 
> commendation of same gender marriage last year in the States proves 
> exactly what I am talking about. They may stick to certain beliefs to 
> improve their secular life such as work environment and so on. They 
> may not lie, not because lieing is a sinful act but, because it comes 
> against their interest. On other occasions, they may attempt to 
> justify lieing or deceit because it actually concurs with their 
> interest. I do not say that either Judaism or Christianity justify 
> these iniquitous acts but, the west does not regard religion as it 
> should be regarded. I do not necessarily consider that right or wrong, 
> I am just reporting facts. We may not agree with many things in the 
> west and, our disagreement with some western customs is essentially 
> based on religion. Western Christians may approve alcohol consumption, 
> eating pork or not kosher meat, they may possibly get engaged in 
> wedlock and so on. What I personally perceive, that the west 
> restructured the use of religious principles, so what it served their 
> secular life, they embraced and, what gets someone close to piety, 
> they abandoned and actually, substituted It with what satisfies their 
> temporal pursuits. That is the major crisis in the west and to be 
> quite fair, even here. Lots of Muslims are abandoning faith for  
> almost the same reasons of faith abandon in the west. People are tempted with lots of confusion and disarray. Even those who may not abandon faith entirely, are not practicing properly. There is actually an ordeal of religious adherence.
> The west though, determined to impose expulsion of religious impact. 
> Thus far, we ought to decease our indolence  and seek knowledge. It is 
> plainly discernable that our recognition of religion is quite 
> different from what it is in the western world. Our recognition is 
> essentially based on introspection and repudiating cynicism. Our role 
> is to keep clarifying what religion is for us to those who 
> predominantly inhabit the western world. Religion is not highly 
> revered in this culture and thence, they may not conveniently 
> apprehend why religion is so sacred for us. This is why they did not 
> fathom in Denmark for instance, why we were so offended with the 
> unhallowing caricature. This is a decisive proof that the west in 
> general does not recognize religion as sanctified as we do. Church is really a place for socialisation more than it is a place of worship.
> People do not stand in rows praying as we do in the Masjid. They just 
> sit down and listen attentively to the pastor and then, they either 
> sing or just leave. This is absolutely serious. Ramadan approaches and 
> that may keep me a bit occupied more than usual but, I will inshallah 
> make sure to render my posts on regular basis. I wish you all blessing 
> and I keenly look forward to hearing from you. Mostafa currently 
> resides in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
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