[gui-talk] Response to "The Hands That Feed"

Sun Feb 26 21:00:56 UTC 2012

Given that point mike, why then get on Apple's case about not having standards?  It has been argued that because Apple has out of the box accessibility, that we expect more from Apple.  Fair enough so far as that goes, but, I ask you.  Can you explain the gental wording of the Google resolution verses the Apple one?

Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!

Skype name:
barefootedray

Facebook:
facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1

On Feb 26, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:

> True enough.
> 
> As for Windows, I would venture that we *don't* treat Windows with kid
> gloves. But the corporate environment is -- at least to this observer --
> quite different. Microsoft makes little pretense of imposing standards on
> the industry -- it may come out with accessibility tools such as ActiveX,
> Aria, UI Automation and MSAA. But the industry developed in such a fashion
> that it proved almost impossible to make standards stick. That may not be
> desirable but it is reality.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret Jr
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:51 AM
> To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Response to "The Hands That Feed"
> 
> Well, Mike, it's how I feel about this particular matter.  I would say, of
> course, that it's disappointing that there are no standards for
> accessibility; and, framkly, there need to be.  Why, though, do we treat
> windows stuff with such kid gloves and but condem and diplore Apple?  Now, I
> grant that the resolution Curtis helped to  or authored did not say that,
> but, honestly, no matter what is said about this, you're not going to
> satisfy everybody.
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
> 
> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
> 
> Skype name:
> barefootedray
> 
> Facebook:
> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:19 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
> 
>> Ray:
>> 
>> I'm surprised that you would advocate such mealy-mouthed wording as
>> "expressed concern". It was more than that to me -- I was somewhere
> between
>> deeply disappointed and royally ticked off. I'd say "deeply disappointed"
>> was restrained. And, as I said in an earlier post, one is inclined to push
>> when the other side shows a willingness to listen.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ray Foret Jr
>> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:54 AM
>> To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Response to "The Hands That Feed"
>> 
>> Here, Curtis, I half agree.  Frustration, oh yes, I would agree with that.
>> Deep disappointment, sorry, I cannot go that far with it.  Just concerned
>> would have done better.  But why?  Frankly, I should have liked to see the
>> resolution more openly praise Apple for what it has done; but, express
>> concern at the lack of standards for accessibility.  After all, the Google
>> resolution did exactly that; and, we all know what they have recently done
>> to the search preferences page, (truly an inaccessible disaster now.),
>> expressing concern over the lack of accessibility standards coupled with
> an
>> open invitation to Apple to work  closely with the NFB and a strong public
>> urging to do so  would have gone down better.
>> 
>> I should like to know your views, if any, of the final points I raised.
> The
>> mistakes in the June 2009 Monitor article were, I believe, honest
> mistakes;
>> and, it was right for Apple users to come down on the NFB for making them;
>> but, and here's the real thing of it.  The NFB put right those honest
>> mistakes in December and did right to do so; yet, no credit from Apple
>> users. well, from me of course, and that was about it.  I'm not trying to
>> earn points here, but, I did defend the NFB on the list when I saw that it
>> was getting ugly.  To me, if you make a mistake, you should be called out
>> for it; but, when you put it right, your action should be just as openly
>> acknowedlged.  This was not done.  
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>> 
>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>> 
>> Skype name:
>> barefootedray
>> 
>> Facebook:
>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 26, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Curtis Chong wrote:
>> 
>>> Dear Ray:
>>> 
>>> "With respect to the resolution which the NFB passed at the 2011
>> convention,
>>> I must strongly disagree; not so much with what your resolution intended
>> to
>>> do; but rather, with the condemn and deplore language you employed."
>>> 
>>> As I tried to make clear in my post, the resolution that was passed at
> the
>>> NFB 2011 convention did not say 'condemn and deplore" at all.  Yes, there
>>> was a resolution which I championed which did incorporate "condemn and
>>> deplore" language, but (as others have pointed out) that resolution did
>>> fail.  The membership exercised its proper right to determine the course
>> of
>>> a resolution.
>>> 
>>> So, having put that aside, do you believe that the resolution that did
>> pass
>>> was too strongly worded?  I understand you agree with the intent.  I am
>>> still curious as to your thoughts about the words "frustration" and "deep
>>> disappointment."
>>> 
>>> Thank you, Ray.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely,
>>> 
>>> Curtis Chong
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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