[gui-talk] Response to "The Hands That Feed"

Ray Foret Jr rforetjr at att.net
Sun Feb 26 22:22:19 UTC 2012 

Fair enough Mike.  Point well taken.


Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!

Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!

Skype name:
barefootedray

Facebook:
facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1



On Feb 26, 2012, at 3:13 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:

> I'm going to answer by assaying a lawyer's "defense of alternatives" -- all
> of which should be preceeded by a "perhaps".
> 
> (1) Since Apple has done so well, we expect more of it than of Google.
> 
> (2) Google is at least speaking with us -- I know Dr. Maurer has or soon
> will make a trip to Google HQ for a heart-to-heart. Is Apple talking to us?
> Or to ACB, for that matter?
> 
> (4) In the case of the Google Search engine, I suspect that, like many
> corporations these days, their structure is so disorganized that even if
> attention is called to the problem, we would be hard-put to decide whom to
> skewer. Remember (said with an expression of nausea), this is the era of
> quality teams, goals, objectives and other corporate nonsense that
> substitutes hot air and good feelings for real decision-making. (grin)
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Foret Jr
> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 1:01 PM
> To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Response to "The Hands That Feed"
> 
> Given that point mike, why then get on Apple's case about not having
> standards?  It has been argued that because Apple has out of the box
> accessibility, that we expect more from Apple.  Fair enough so far as that
> goes, but, I ask you.  Can you explain the gental wording of the Google
> resolution verses the Apple one?
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
> 
> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
> 
> Skype name:
> barefootedray
> 
> Facebook:
> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 26, 2012, at 2:56 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
> 
>> True enough.
>> 
>> As for Windows, I would venture that we *don't* treat Windows with kid
>> gloves. But the corporate environment is -- at least to this observer --
>> quite different. Microsoft makes little pretense of imposing standards on
>> the industry -- it may come out with accessibility tools such as ActiveX,
>> Aria, UI Automation and MSAA. But the industry developed in such a fashion
>> that it proved almost impossible to make standards stick. That may not be
>> desirable but it is reality.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Ray Foret Jr
>> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:51 AM
>> To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Response to "The Hands That Feed"
>> 
>> Well, Mike, it's how I feel about this particular matter.  I would say, of
>> course, that it's disappointing that there are no standards for
>> accessibility; and, framkly, there need to be.  Why, though, do we treat
>> windows stuff with such kid gloves and but condem and diplore Apple?  Now,
> I
>> grant that the resolution Curtis helped to  or authored did not say that,
>> but, honestly, no matter what is said about this, you're not going to
>> satisfy everybody.
>> 
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>> 
>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>> 
>> Skype name:
>> barefootedray
>> 
>> Facebook:
>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 26, 2012, at 1:19 PM, Mike Freeman wrote:
>> 
>>> Ray:
>>> 
>>> I'm surprised that you would advocate such mealy-mouthed wording as
>>> "expressed concern". It was more than that to me -- I was somewhere
>> between
>>> deeply disappointed and royally ticked off. I'd say "deeply disappointed"
>>> was restrained. And, as I said in an earlier post, one is inclined to
> push
>>> when the other side shows a willingness to listen.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:gui-talk-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Ray Foret Jr
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 8:54 AM
>>> To: Discussion of the Graphical User Interface, GUI Talk Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [gui-talk] Response to "The Hands That Feed"
>>> 
>>> Here, Curtis, I half agree.  Frustration, oh yes, I would agree with
> that.
>>> Deep disappointment, sorry, I cannot go that far with it.  Just concerned
>>> would have done better.  But why?  Frankly, I should have liked to see
> the
>>> resolution more openly praise Apple for what it has done; but, express
>>> concern at the lack of standards for accessibility.  After all, the
> Google
>>> resolution did exactly that; and, we all know what they have recently
> done
>>> to the search preferences page, (truly an inaccessible disaster now.),
>>> expressing concern over the lack of accessibility standards coupled with
>> an
>>> open invitation to Apple to work  closely with the NFB and a strong
> public
>>> urging to do so  would have gone down better.
>>> 
>>> I should like to know your views, if any, of the final points I raised.
>> The
>>> mistakes in the June 2009 Monitor article were, I believe, honest
>> mistakes;
>>> and, it was right for Apple users to come down on the NFB for making
> them;
>>> but, and here's the real thing of it.  The NFB put right those honest
>>> mistakes in December and did right to do so; yet, no credit from Apple
>>> users. well, from me of course, and that was about it.  I'm not trying to
>>> earn points here, but, I did defend the NFB on the list when I saw that
> it
>>> was getting ugly.  To me, if you make a mistake, you should be called out
>>> for it; but, when you put it right, your action should be just as openly
>>> acknowedlged.  This was not done.  
>>> Sincerely,
>>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray!!!
>>> 
>>> Now a very proud and happy Mac user!!!
>>> 
>>> Skype name:
>>> barefootedray
>>> 
>>> Facebook:
>>> facebook.com/ray.foretjr.1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 26, 2012, at 9:50 AM, Curtis Chong wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Dear Ray:
>>>> 
>>>> "With respect to the resolution which the NFB passed at the 2011
>>> convention,
>>>> I must strongly disagree; not so much with what your resolution intended
>>> to
>>>> do; but rather, with the condemn and deplore language you employed."
>>>> 
>>>> As I tried to make clear in my post, the resolution that was passed at
>> the
>>>> NFB 2011 convention did not say 'condemn and deplore" at all.  Yes,
> there
>>>> was a resolution which I championed which did incorporate "condemn and
>>>> deplore" language, but (as others have pointed out) that resolution did
>>>> fail.  The membership exercised its proper right to determine the course
>>> of
>>>> a resolution.
>>>> 
>>>> So, having put that aside, do you believe that the resolution that did
>>> pass
>>>> was too strongly worded?  I understand you agree with the intent.  I am
>>>> still curious as to your thoughts about the words "frustration" and
> "deep
>>>> disappointment."
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you, Ray.
>>>> 
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>> 
>>>> Curtis Chong
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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