From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Mon Dec 1 00:58:41 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:58:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I have pride issues too. Even if someone asks me if I need help I'm likely to say no just I hate to admit I need help. But that's just something to deal with. Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Albert Yoo Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups Sarah, I feel the same way in an unfamiliararea. How do you know who to ask if you don't know any one in your cafeteria? I guess you have to ask and that will get over the shyness. I think other blind people feel the same way. A person who could see would feel the same way. I don't think it is just blind people that it is hard to ask some one for directions or any questions in an unfamiliar area. It is not so hard if some one comes up to me and starts talking to me. Asking some one else who I don't know is not as easy. Albert > From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:29:52 -0500> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups> > Hi All,> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we hadn't> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if it's your> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines that converge> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would be to ask the> people near y! ou, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in unfamiliar> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other thoughts?> Thank you,> Sarah> > > _______________________________________________> nabs-l mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail .com _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_access_ 112008 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From qmsingleton at comcast.net Mon Dec 1 01:26:52 2008 From: qmsingleton at comcast.net (Quintina M. Singleton) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:26:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Thruoureyes Radio Show Announcement Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: Dave Quintina Singleton Please tune in to the internet radio show "Thruoureyes with Joe Ruffalo" on Wednesday December 3 at 8:00 PM EST. Mr. Ruffalo will be interviewing Anna McClure, a representative from En-Vision America Inc. This company has successfully introduced several voice-enabled products like i.d. mate OMNI, the talking bar code reader, and now the newly released ScriptTalk, a prescription reading device. Listeners will get details about an opportunity to receive ScriptTalk for free. To learn more about En-Vision America Inc. and their promotional program; Just visit www.thruoureyes.org this Wednesday evening 12/03/08 at 8 PM eastern. From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Mon Dec 1 01:32:41 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:32:41 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups Message-ID: <20081201012949.YTA19731.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> I sometimes feel that way too, but it's something we all have to try to get over... >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:58:41 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >I think I have pride issues too. Even if someone asks me if I need help I'm >likely to say no just I hate to admit I need help. But that's just something >to deal with. >Sarah >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Albert Yoo >Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:25 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >Sarah, I feel the same way in an unfamiliararea. How do you know who to ask >if you don't know any one in your cafeteria? I guess you have to ask and >that will get over the shyness. I think other blind people feel the same >way. A person who could see would feel the same way. I don't think it is >just blind people that it is hard to ask some one for directions or any >questions in an unfamiliar area. It is not so hard if some one comes up to >me and starts talking to me. Asking some one else who I don't know is not as >easy. Albert > From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:29:52 -0500> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups> > Hi >All,> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we >hadn't> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if >it's your> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines >that converge> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would >be to ask the> people near y! > ou, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in unfamiliar> settings >alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other thoughts?> Thank >you,> Sarah> > > _______________________________________________> nabs-l >mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, >change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo 1%40hotmail >..com >_________________________________________________________________ >Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. >http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_ acq_access_ >112008 >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 01:37:23 2008 From: skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com (Karrie Kinstetter) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:37:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03b301c95355$6699f0a0$33cdd1e0$@com> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places that had a setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in front of me. This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency so if I put my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and are perfectly fine with it. Mind you, those are the blind people. If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to move up. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Jevnikar Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups Hi All, I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we hadn't yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if it's your turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines that converge so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would be to ask the people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in unfamiliar settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other thoughts? Thank you, Sarah _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gm ail.com From kolbygarrison at triad.rr.com Mon Dec 1 02:38:31 2008 From: kolbygarrison at triad.rr.com (Kolby Garrison) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:38:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups In-Reply-To: <20081201012949.YTA19731.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> References: <20081201012949.YTA19731.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: Hannah, Sarah, and all, You are not alone in feeling the way that you do about asking for help or refusing help when it is offered to you. I struggled with the same thing all through High School, and even in to my 1st semester of College. I learned very quickly that sometimes accepting help and even asking for assistance is nothing to be ashamed of, because sighted people do the same thing as well. I am currently a Sophomore in College, and I am working with my 1st Guide Dog. Sunny has opened so many doors for me, but I still have trouble asking for help and accepting help because of wanting to be independent. I received Sunny in June of this year, and transitioning from the cane to the Guide Dog was somewhat difficult for me. I needed a lot of help on campus in the beginning, despite having worked my routes with Sunny multiple times over the summer. Though I will not ever go back to using the cane again and will be partnering with a Guide Dog for the rest of my life, I now realize that asking for help and accepting help is a necessary part of being independent and that in fact my doing so enhances my independence. Thank you for letting me share my 2 cents worth, Kolby -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of hannah Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups I sometimes feel that way too, but it's something we all have to try to get over... >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:58:41 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >I think I have pride issues too. Even if someone asks me if I need help I'm >likely to say no just I hate to admit I need help. But that's just something >to deal with. >Sarah >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Albert Yoo >Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:25 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >Sarah, I feel the same way in an unfamiliararea. How do you know who to ask >if you don't know any one in your cafeteria? I guess you have to ask and >that will get over the shyness. I think other blind people feel the same >way. A person who could see would feel the same way. I don't think it is >just blind people that it is hard to ask some one for directions or any >questions in an unfamiliar area. It is not so hard if some one comes up to >me and starts talking to me. Asking some one else who I don't know is not as >easy. Albert > From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:29:52 -0500> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups> > Hi >All,> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we >hadn't> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if >it's your> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines >that converge> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would >be to ask the> people near y! > ou, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in unfamiliar> settings >alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other thoughts?> Thank >you,> Sarah> > > _______________________________________________> nabs-l >mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, >change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo 1%40hotmail >..com >_________________________________________________________________ >Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. >http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_ acq_access_ >112008 >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kolbygarrison%40tria d.rr.com From iamantonio at cox.net Mon Dec 1 02:45:38 2008 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:45:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students References: <7C8CF7C340BA40D9A52B65A6AF76951D@MonkeyPaw> Message-ID: Hi all, How about http://www.academictips.org/index.html Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "Arizona Students" ; "'California Students'" ; "Colorado Center" ; "'Colorado Students'" ; "Florida Students" ; "'Illinois Students'" ; "'Kansas Students'" ; "Kentucky Students" ; "Louisiana Students" ; "Michigan" ; "Minnesota Students" ; "Missouri" ; "National" ; "Nebraska" ; "New Hampshire Students" ; "New Jersey Students" ; "'North Carolina Students'" ; "Ohio" ; "Pennsylvania" ; "Presidents" ; "TABS Students" ; "Tennessee Students" ; "'Utah Students'" ; "Virginia Students" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:48 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students > Hello all, > > As we move into Thanksgiving, we're looking for the top web sites you, as > students, are grateful to for the resources they have afforded to you in > your education. We're looking for web sites on financial aid, applying to > college, scholarship databases, social networking, textbook discounts, > anything and everything you feel is a prime resource for you as a student. > Yes, we're already aware of PickAProf.com. We're looking for something a > little more substantive than a convenient way to rate the dismal robot you > had for biology. Your suggestions will be incorporated into the NABS web > site for all to take advantage. Be well, send us your suggestions and > enjoy > your Thanksgiving holiday. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1817 - Release Date: > 11/28/2008 8:17 AM > > From harryhogue at yahoo.com Mon Dec 1 03:39:20 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:39:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <561651.11779.qm@web33505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Colby,   I used a guide dog for a couple of years, when I realized that he was too interested in being a puppy, and in the interest of total honest I was probably a bit immature/lazy.  What I later came to realize, though, is that I had gotten a guide dog for the wrong reasons - I thought he would solve all my problems.  What threw me was the lack of any kind of tactile feedback--all my landmarks were gone!  I never could get the hang of that.  Not discouraging you at all -- I'm just interested why you decided to get a dog?  I thought I knew at sixteen and had the right idea, but looking back at twenty-two I realize that I was going about it all wrong.   And yes, I'll agree with the other person who said that a guide dog does make a great conversation piece--it also, as I found out first hand, can require you to have the police called when restaurant owners don't understand the laws about service animals--and my dad and I still got to sit in the back of the restaurant at a table by ourselvves, although I was too tired of trying to explain to the man about the dog at that point that I let it go.  LOL   I also understand about frustration with routes, but one thing builds on another and on another and so forth.  One day you will look up and realize that you know more than you thought you did. Take care all,   Harry --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Kolby Garrison wrote: From: Kolby Garrison Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 8:38 PM Hannah, Sarah, and all, You are not alone in feeling the way that you do about asking for help or refusing help when it is offered to you. I struggled with the same thing all through High School, and even in to my 1st semester of College. I learned very quickly that sometimes accepting help and even asking for assistance is nothing to be ashamed of, because sighted people do the same thing as well. I am currently a Sophomore in College, and I am working with my 1st Guide Dog. Sunny has opened so many doors for me, but I still have trouble asking for help and accepting help because of wanting to be independent. I received Sunny in June of this year, and transitioning from the cane to the Guide Dog was somewhat difficult for me. I needed a lot of help on campus in the beginning, despite having worked my routes with Sunny multiple times over the summer. Though I will not ever go back to using the cane again and will be partnering with a Guide Dog for the rest of my life, I now realize that asking for help and accepting help is a necessary part of being independent and that in fact my doing so enhances my independence. Thank you for letting me share my 2 cents worth, Kolby -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of hannah Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups I sometimes feel that way too, but it's something we all have to try to get over... >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:58:41 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >I think I have pride issues too. Even if someone asks me if I need help I'm >likely to say no just I hate to admit I need help. But that's just something >to deal with. >Sarah >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Albert Yoo >Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:25 PM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >Sarah, I feel the same way in an unfamiliararea. How do you know who to ask >if you don't know any one in your cafeteria? I guess you have to ask and >that will get over the shyness. I think other blind people feel the same >way. A person who could see would feel the same way. I don't think it is >just blind people that it is hard to ask some one for directions or any >questions in an unfamiliar area. It is not so hard if some one comes up to >me and starts talking to me. Asking some one else who I don't know is not as >easy. Albert > From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:29:52 -0500> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups> > Hi >All,> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we >hadn't> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if >it's your> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines >that converge> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would >be to ask the> people near y! > ou, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in unfamiliar> settings >alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other thoughts?> Thank >you,> Sarah> > > _______________________________________________> nabs-l >mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, >change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo 1%40hotmail >..com >_________________________________________________________________ >Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. >http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_ acq_access_ >112008 >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kolbygarrison%40tria d.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 03:57:47 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:57:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups In-Reply-To: <561651.11779.qm@web33505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <561651.11779.qm@web33505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0811301957o67f3295exccc291b612d0b48b@mail.gmail.com> The thing about the landmarks is why I wont use a guide dog and will stick with my trusty cane. Beth On 11/30/08, Harry Hogue wrote: > Colby, > > I used a guide dog for a couple of years, when I realized that he was too > interested in being a puppy, and in the interest of total honest I was > probably a bit immature/lazy. What I later came to realize, though, is that > I had gotten a guide dog for the wrong reasons - I thought he would solve > all my problems. What threw me was the lack of any kind of tactile > feedback--all my landmarks were gone! I never could get the hang of > that. Not discouraging you at all -- I'm just interested why you decided to > get a dog? I thought I knew at sixteen and had the right idea, but looking > back at twenty-two I realize that I was going about it all wrong. > > And yes, I'll agree with the other person who said that a guide dog does > make a great conversation piece--it also, as I found out first hand, can > require you to have the police called when restaurant owners don't > understand the laws about service animals--and my dad and I still got to sit > in the back of the restaurant at a table by ourselvves, although I was too > tired of trying to explain to the man about the dog at that point that I let > it go. LOL > > I also understand about frustration with routes, but one thing builds on > another and on another and so forth. One day you will look up and realize > that you know more than you thought you did. > > Take care all, > > Harry > > --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Kolby Garrison wrote: > > From: Kolby Garrison > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Date: Sunday, November 30, 2008, 8:38 PM > > Hannah, Sarah, and all, > You are not alone in feeling the way that you do about asking for help or > refusing help when it is offered to you. I struggled with the same thing all > through High School, and even in to my 1st semester of College. I learned > very quickly that sometimes accepting help and even asking for assistance is > nothing to be ashamed of, because sighted people do the same thing as well. > I am currently a Sophomore in College, and I am working with my 1st Guide > Dog. Sunny has opened so many doors for me, but I still have trouble asking > for help and accepting help because of wanting to be independent. I received > Sunny in June of this year, and transitioning from the cane to the Guide Dog > was somewhat difficult for me. I needed a lot of help on campus in the > beginning, despite having worked my routes with Sunny multiple times over > the summer. Though I will not ever go back to using the cane again and will > be partnering with a Guide Dog for the rest of my life, I now realize that > asking for help and accepting help is a necessary part of being independent > and that in fact my doing so enhances my independence. > Thank you for letting me share my 2 cents worth, > Kolby > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of hannah > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:33 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > > I sometimes feel that way too, but it's something we all have to > try to get over... > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list'" > >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:58:41 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > >>I think I have pride issues too. Even if someone asks me if I > need help I'm >>likely to say no just I hate to admit I need help. But that's > just something >>to deal with. >>Sarah > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>Of Albert Yoo >>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 6:25 PM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > > >>Sarah, I feel the same way in an unfamiliararea. How do you know > who to ask >>if you don't know any one in your cafeteria? I guess you have to > ask and >>that will get over the shyness. I think other blind people feel > the same >>way. A person who could see would feel the same way. I don't > think it is >>just blind people that it is hard to ask some one for directions > or any >>questions in an unfamiliar area. It is not so hard if some one > comes up to >>me and starts talking to me. Asking some one else who I don't > know is not as >>easy. Albert > From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> To: > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 02:29:52 -0500> Subject: [nabs-l] Line > Ups> > Hi >>All,> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one > aspect we >>hadn't> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do > you know if >>it's your> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are > several lines >>that converge> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious > thing would >>be to ask the> people near y! >> ou, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in unfamiliar> > settings >>alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other > thoughts?> Thank >>you,> Sarah> > > > _______________________________________________> > nabs-l >>mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To > unsubscribe, >>change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo > 1%40hotmail >>..com >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. >>http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_ > acq_access_ >>112008 >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev > nikar%40uto >>ronto.ca > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kolbygarrison%40tria > d.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 06:54:33 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:54:33 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081201065433.GA81139@yumi.bluecherry.net> I had someone come up to me to ask if I needed help at an ATM after dark tonight. Kinda scary, actually. The machine and I were arguing about whether it was going to actually read my card (a known problem with this ATM, actually.) Joseph On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 07:58:41PM -0500, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: >I think I have pride issues too. Even if someone asks me if I need help I'm >likely to say no just I hate to admit I need help. But that's just something >to deal with. >Sarah From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com Mon Dec 1 14:15:45 2008 From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 09:15:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students In-Reply-To: References: <7C8CF7C340BA40D9A52B65A6AF76951D@MonkeyPaw> Message-ID: Antonio, I never used this website before. After looking at the website, I will be using it now. It has a lot of helpful tips on it. Albert> From: iamantonio at cox.net> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:45:38 -0500> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students> > Hi all, How about> > http://www.academictips.org/index.html> > Antonio Guimaraes> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Orozco" > To: "Arizona Students" ; "'California > Students'" ; "Colorado Center" > ; "'Colorado Students'" ; "Florida > Students" ; "'Illinois Students'" ; > "'Kansas Students'" ; "Kentucky Students" > ; "Louisiana Students" ; > "Michigan" ; "Minnesota Students" ; > "Missouri" ; "National" ; "Nebraska" > ; "New Hampshire Students" > ; "New Jersey Students" > ; "'North Carolina Students'" ; > "Ohio" ; "Pennsylvania" ; "Presidents" > ; "TABS Students" > ; "Tennessee Students" ; > "'Utah Students'" ; "Virginia Students" > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:48 PM> Subject: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students> > > > Hello all,> >> > As we move into Thanksgiving, we're looking for the top web sites you, as> > students, are grateful to for the resources they have afforded to you in> > your education. We're looking for web sites on financial aid, applying to> > college, scholarship databases, social networking, textbook discounts,> > anything and everything you feel is a prime resource for you as a student.> > Yes, we're already aware of PickAProf.com. We're looking for something a> > little more substantive than a convenient way to rate the dismal robot you> > had for biology. Your suggestions will be incorporated into the NABS web> > site for all to take advantage. Be well, send us your suggestions and > > enjoy> > your Thanksgiving holiday.> >> > Joe Orozco> >> > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > > M.> > Barrie> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > nabs-l mailing list> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l:> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net> >> >> > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message.> > Checked by AVG.> > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1817 - Release Date: > > 11/28/2008 8:17 AM> >> > > > > _______________________________________________> nabs-l mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get more done, have more fun, and stay more connected with Windows Mobile®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/119642556/direct/01/ From jsorozco at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 16:31:08 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 11:31:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <52BD08911EED423F90096D64865ABF16@MonkeyPaw> Good suggestion. You guys keep them coming. Thanks in advance. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students Hi all, How about http://www.academictips.org/index.html Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "Arizona Students" ; "'California Students'" ; "Colorado Center" ; "'Colorado Students'" ; "Florida Students" ; "'Illinois Students'" ; "'Kansas Students'" ; "Kentucky Students" ; "Louisiana Students" ; "Michigan" ; "Minnesota Students" ; "Missouri" ; "National" ; "Nebraska" ; "New Hampshire Students" ; "New Jersey Students" ; "'North Carolina Students'" ; "Ohio" ; "Pennsylvania" ; "Presidents" ; "TABS Students" ; "Tennessee Students" ; "'Utah Students'" ; "Virginia Students" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 10:48 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Best Sites for Students > Hello all, > > As we move into Thanksgiving, we're looking for the top web sites you, > as students, are grateful to for the resources they have afforded to > you in your education. We're looking for web sites on financial aid, > applying to college, scholarship databases, social networking, > textbook discounts, anything and everything you feel is a prime resource for you as a student. > Yes, we're already aware of PickAProf.com. We're looking for > something a little more substantive than a convenient way to rate the > dismal robot you had for biology. Your suggestions will be > incorporated into the NABS web site for all to take advantage. Be > well, send us your suggestions and enjoy your Thanksgiving holiday. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40c > ox.net > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.11/1817 - Release Date: > 11/28/2008 8:17 AM > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From kolbygarrison at triad.rr.com Mon Dec 1 21:32:47 2008 From: kolbygarrison at triad.rr.com (Kolby Garrison) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:32:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods Message-ID: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> Hello Everyone, I knew that I wanted to partner with a Guide Dog as soon as I was old enough to understand what a Guide Dog could do. After graduating High School I went to Guide Dogs For The Blind in San Rafael, California to receive my 1st Guide Dog, but things did not work out for me there. The 2 dogs that I was matched with were not the right dogs for me, and I came home without a dog. I was devastated and my confidence became nonexistent. I learned my College campus using the cane with the help of a wonderful Orientation And Mobility Instructor who helped me realize my independence potential, and who worked with me for hours on end making sure that I was ready by the 1st day of classes. I applied to The Guide Dog Foundation For The Blind, because I knew more than ever that a Guide Dog was the right thing for me. My confidence increased, and by the time my home interview with GDF rolled around I was confident and independent with the cane. I was accepted to GDF and matched with Sunny in June of this year. She is a 5 year old female Golden Retriever, and she has changed my life. The lack of tactile feedback took some getting use to, but I will not ever go back to using the cane as I have said before. People talked to me when I was using my cane just as much as they do now that I am partnered with Sunny, and yes even Guide Dog users have to ask for help. Learning new routes is just as difficult with a Guide Dog as it is with the cane, and I will be very interested to see how Sunny responds to the new routes, buildings, and classes that we will be working on very soon for the upcoming semester. If anyone has any questions concerning why partnering with a Guide Dog is the right thing for me personally, please do ask. I am of the opinion that individuals should use the methods that work best for them in all circumstances, and working with a Guide Dog is what works best for me. I am enjoying all of the discussions on this list about various aspects of being a blind student. Thank You, Kolby From queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 23:12:44 2008 From: queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com (Marsha) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:12:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] To Kolby was mobility methods In-Reply-To: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> References: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> Message-ID: <01E5AF1AA412458EB2557A45C74CA28A@Cptr233> Kolby, My name is Marsha, and I am also a guide dog user, using my second guide named Emma. I would agree that using a guide is the best for me. I love your attitude when it comes to guide dogs, and wanted to ask, Are you a part of the National Association of guide dog users? It is a part of the NFB, as I have not seen you post on that list. We are a wonderful division who is growing by leaps and bounds. As you seem to be very passionate about guide dogs we would love to have that passionate a a part of our division. If you are not a aprt of the NAGDU family, and would like more info please email me back at this email address: queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com But if you are indeed a part of the division, we would love to hear more from you. We are really finding that people with guides in the NFB is growing, as the old thinking that the NFB is against guide dogs and handlers is NOT true! I look forward to hearing from you soon, Marsha NAGDU board Member -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kolby Garrison Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 4:33 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods Hello Everyone, I knew that I wanted to partner with a Guide Dog as soon as I was old enough to understand what a Guide Dog could do. After graduating High School I went to Guide Dogs For The Blind in San Rafael, California to receive my 1st Guide Dog, but things did not work out for me there. The 2 dogs that I was matched with were not the right dogs for me, and I came home without a dog. I was devastated and my confidence became nonexistent. I learned my College campus using the cane with the help of a wonderful Orientation And Mobility Instructor who helped me realize my independence potential, and who worked with me for hours on end making sure that I was ready by the 1st day of classes. I applied to The Guide Dog Foundation For The Blind, because I knew more than ever that a Guide Dog was the right thing for me. My confidence increased, and by the time my home interview with GDF rolled around I was confident and independent with the cane. I was accepted to GDF and matched with Sunny in June of this year. She is a 5 year old female Golden Retriever, and she has changed my life. The lack of tactile feedback took some getting use to, but I will not ever go back to using the cane as I have said before. People talked to me when I was using my cane just as much as they do now that I am partnered with Sunny, and yes even Guide Dog users have to ask for help. Learning new routes is just as difficult with a Guide Dog as it is with the cane, and I will be very interested to see how Sunny responds to the new routes, buildings, and classes that we will be working on very soon for the upcoming semester. If anyone has any questions concerning why partnering with a Guide Dog is the right thing for me personally, please do ask. I am of the opinion that individuals should use the methods that work best for them in all circumstances, and working with a Guide Dog is what works best for me. I am enjoying all of the discussions on this list about various aspects of being a blind student. Thank You, Kolby _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/queen.marsha.lindsey %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3655 (20081201) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3655 (20081201) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From blindhistory at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 00:21:55 2008 From: blindhistory at gmail.com (Lora and Myrtle) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 17:21:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods In-Reply-To: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> References: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> Message-ID: Congradulations you found a match with sunny. Why is sunny so old compared to other dogs that are issued out? Was she a donation dog? On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Kolby Garrison wrote: > Hello Everyone, > I knew that I wanted to partner with a Guide Dog as soon as I was old > enough > to understand what a Guide Dog could do. After graduating High School I > went > to Guide Dogs For The Blind in San Rafael, California to receive my 1st > Guide Dog, but things did not work out for me there. The 2 dogs that I was > matched with were not the right dogs for me, and I came home without a dog. > I was devastated and my confidence became nonexistent. I learned my College > campus using the cane with the help of a wonderful Orientation And Mobility > Instructor who helped me realize my independence potential, and who worked > with me for hours on end making sure that I was ready by the 1st day of > classes. I applied to The Guide Dog Foundation For The Blind, because I > knew > more than ever that a Guide Dog was the right thing for me. My confidence > increased, and by the time my home interview with GDF rolled around I was > confident and independent with the cane. I was accepted to GDF and matched > with Sunny in June of this year. She is a 5 year old female Golden > Retriever, and she has changed my life. The lack of tactile feedback took > some getting use to, but I will not ever go back to using the cane as I > have > said before. People talked to me when I was using my cane just as much as > they do now that I am partnered with Sunny, and yes even Guide Dog users > have to ask for help. Learning new routes is just as difficult with a Guide > Dog as it is with the cane, and I will be very interested to see how Sunny > responds to the new routes, buildings, and classes that we will be working > on very soon for the upcoming semester. > If anyone has any questions concerning why partnering with a Guide Dog is > the right thing for me personally, please do ask. I am of the opinion that > individuals should use the methods that work best for them in all > circumstances, and working with a Guide Dog is what works best for me. I am > enjoying all of the discussions on this list about various aspects of being > a blind student. > Thank You, > Kolby > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindhistory%40gmail.com > -- Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle From solsticesinger at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 01:05:16 2008 From: solsticesinger at gmail.com (solsticesinger) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:05:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods References: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> Message-ID: I agree with this wholeheartedly. Working with a guide isn't right for everyone, but it has most definitely been right for me. I got my first guide, also from GDF, in the summer of 1997, right before I entered my senior year of high school. There were definitely challenges, just as there are now, eleven years later, as I'm finishing up grad school. However, the benefits far outweigh the challenges, IMO, and, like Kolby, I can't imagine ever going back to a cane. Still, I respect everyone's personal choices, and don't feel it's correct to push my views on anyone. Shannon Who can heal, but one who has healed herself? Who can know, but one who has asked and sought? Who can lead, but one who has traveled the way? --ancient French proverb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kolby Garrison" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods Hello Everyone, I knew that I wanted to partner with a Guide Dog as soon as I was old enough to understand what a Guide Dog could do. After graduating High School I went to Guide Dogs For The Blind in San Rafael, California to receive my 1st Guide Dog, but things did not work out for me there. The 2 dogs that I was matched with were not the right dogs for me, and I came home without a dog. I was devastated and my confidence became nonexistent. I learned my College campus using the cane with the help of a wonderful Orientation And Mobility Instructor who helped me realize my independence potential, and who worked with me for hours on end making sure that I was ready by the 1st day of classes. I applied to The Guide Dog Foundation For The Blind, because I knew more than ever that a Guide Dog was the right thing for me. My confidence increased, and by the time my home interview with GDF rolled around I was confident and independent with the cane. I was accepted to GDF and matched with Sunny in June of this year. She is a 5 year old female Golden Retriever, and she has changed my life. The lack of tactile feedback took some getting use to, but I will not ever go back to using the cane as I have said before. People talked to me when I was using my cane just as much as they do now that I am partnered with Sunny, and yes even Guide Dog users have to ask for help. Learning new routes is just as difficult with a Guide Dog as it is with the cane, and I will be very interested to see how Sunny responds to the new routes, buildings, and classes that we will be working on very soon for the upcoming semester. If anyone has any questions concerning why partnering with a Guide Dog is the right thing for me personally, please do ask. I am of the opinion that individuals should use the methods that work best for them in all circumstances, and working with a Guide Dog is what works best for me. I am enjoying all of the discussions on this list about various aspects of being a blind student. Thank You, Kolby _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/solsticesinger%40gmail.com From hope.paulos at maine.edu Tue Dec 2 01:36:59 2008 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu ( Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:36:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I also agree. Received my first dog, Beignet, from Fidelco Guide Dog Foundation in 2004. I was a sophomore in college (I believe) and find it so much easier to travel with a guide than a cane. I believe, too, though, that keeping one's cane skills up is extremely important. There have been times when I left my dog at home (or in another room of the building I was in) and used a cane. The reason for this is that my dog doesn't do well with music and singing. I'm a bass player and I sing in a band. Go figure. The dog's a critic! But with a dog I can walk much faster and with more ease. We fly! Hope and Beignet (pronounced Ben yay). -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of solsticesinger Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 8:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods I agree with this wholeheartedly. Working with a guide isn't right for everyone, but it has most definitely been right for me. I got my first guide, also from GDF, in the summer of 1997, right before I entered my senior year of high school. There were definitely challenges, just as there are now, eleven years later, as I'm finishing up grad school. However, the benefits far outweigh the challenges, IMO, and, like Kolby, I can't imagine ever going back to a cane. Still, I respect everyone's personal choices, and don't feel it's correct to push my views on anyone. Shannon Who can heal, but one who has healed herself? Who can know, but one who has asked and sought? Who can lead, but one who has traveled the way? --ancient French proverb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kolby Garrison" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:32 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods Hello Everyone, I knew that I wanted to partner with a Guide Dog as soon as I was old enough to understand what a Guide Dog could do. After graduating High School I went to Guide Dogs For The Blind in San Rafael, California to receive my 1st Guide Dog, but things did not work out for me there. The 2 dogs that I was matched with were not the right dogs for me, and I came home without a dog. I was devastated and my confidence became nonexistent. I learned my College campus using the cane with the help of a wonderful Orientation And Mobility Instructor who helped me realize my independence potential, and who worked with me for hours on end making sure that I was ready by the 1st day of classes. I applied to The Guide Dog Foundation For The Blind, because I knew more than ever that a Guide Dog was the right thing for me. My confidence increased, and by the time my home interview with GDF rolled around I was confident and independent with the cane. I was accepted to GDF and matched with Sunny in June of this year. She is a 5 year old female Golden Retriever, and she has changed my life. The lack of tactile feedback took some getting use to, but I will not ever go back to using the cane as I have said before. People talked to me when I was using my cane just as much as they do now that I am partnered with Sunny, and yes even Guide Dog users have to ask for help. Learning new routes is just as difficult with a Guide Dog as it is with the cane, and I will be very interested to see how Sunny responds to the new routes, buildings, and classes that we will be working on very soon for the upcoming semester. If anyone has any questions concerning why partnering with a Guide Dog is the right thing for me personally, please do ask. I am of the opinion that individuals should use the methods that work best for them in all circumstances, and working with a Guide Dog is what works best for me. I am enjoying all of the discussions on this list about various aspects of being a blind student. Thank You, Kolby _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/solsticesinger%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine. edu __________ NOD32 3655 (20081201) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com From kolbygarrison at triad.rr.com Tue Dec 2 01:38:24 2008 From: kolbygarrison at triad.rr.com (Kolby Garrison) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:38:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods In-Reply-To: References: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> Message-ID: Hello Laura, Sunny is a reissue. She was too strong for her previous handler, so the handler chose to give her back to GDF in hopes that she would be retired and become a beloved pet or be reissued if the right person came along. My trainer told me that if I had not come along that Sunny would have been retired because there was not anyone else who could handld her Golden Retriever combination of softness and stubbornness and her energy level and very fast pace. The independence and freedom that she gives me are priceless, and she herself is invaluable. Sunny absolutely loves to work, and though I wish that our working life would be longer and that I had not missed out on 3 or so years with her I cannot imagine having a better dog for my 1st Guide Dog. Her enthusiasm, exuberance, energy, dedication, ETC are beyond measure. Kolby -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lora and Myrtle Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods Congradulations you found a match with sunny. Why is sunny so old compared to other dogs that are issued out? Was she a donation dog? On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Kolby Garrison wrote: > Hello Everyone, > I knew that I wanted to partner with a Guide Dog as soon as I was old > enough > to understand what a Guide Dog could do. After graduating High School I > went > to Guide Dogs For The Blind in San Rafael, California to receive my 1st > Guide Dog, but things did not work out for me there. The 2 dogs that I was > matched with were not the right dogs for me, and I came home without a dog. > I was devastated and my confidence became nonexistent. I learned my College > campus using the cane with the help of a wonderful Orientation And Mobility > Instructor who helped me realize my independence potential, and who worked > with me for hours on end making sure that I was ready by the 1st day of > classes. I applied to The Guide Dog Foundation For The Blind, because I > knew > more than ever that a Guide Dog was the right thing for me. My confidence > increased, and by the time my home interview with GDF rolled around I was > confident and independent with the cane. I was accepted to GDF and matched > with Sunny in June of this year. She is a 5 year old female Golden > Retriever, and she has changed my life. The lack of tactile feedback took > some getting use to, but I will not ever go back to using the cane as I > have > said before. People talked to me when I was using my cane just as much as > they do now that I am partnered with Sunny, and yes even Guide Dog users > have to ask for help. Learning new routes is just as difficult with a Guide > Dog as it is with the cane, and I will be very interested to see how Sunny > responds to the new routes, buildings, and classes that we will be working > on very soon for the upcoming semester. > If anyone has any questions concerning why partnering with a Guide Dog is > the right thing for me personally, please do ask. I am of the opinion that > individuals should use the methods that work best for them in all > circumstances, and working with a Guide Dog is what works best for me. I am > enjoying all of the discussions on this list about various aspects of being > a blind student. > Thank You, > Kolby > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindhistory%40gmail .com > -- Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kolbygarrison%40tria d.rr.com From blindhistory at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 02:44:33 2008 From: blindhistory at gmail.com (Lora and Myrtle) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 19:44:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods In-Reply-To: References: <3F537F4B0F6D46CF89C28B46AE8A434F@UNCGL3A8463> Message-ID: I received my first dog guide from Leader Dogs in Rodchester, Michigan. She is 21 months and still very much a puppy. She is a very hard worker. She likes to bark and growl at other dogs while working. It is definately a playful growl and I am working on this with her. I received her in July. She is a very very smart dog and very sneaky when it comes to food. She learns routes within the first couple of times of doing them. she is a very stubborn dog who walks fast (which I love). I love having Myrtle and wouldn't go back to a cane full time. I have been taking her to football games with cannons (when we score a touchdown). Usually she does pretty good except for these last 2 games when the cannons went of during the halftime show (as part of the music) and which I play in. She shut down after that and refused to work. I definately learned that you can't force a dog to work that doesn't want to work. Myrtle is a yellow lab. Sorry for the long post. On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Kolby Garrison wrote: > Hello Laura, > Sunny is a reissue. She was too strong for her previous handler, so the > handler chose to give her back to GDF in hopes that she would be retired > and > become a beloved pet or be reissued if the right person came along. My > trainer told me that if I had not come along that Sunny would have been > retired because there was not anyone else who could handld her Golden > Retriever combination of softness and stubbornness and her energy level and > very fast pace. The independence and freedom that she gives me are > priceless, and she herself is invaluable. Sunny absolutely loves to work, > and though I wish that our working life would be longer and that I had not > missed out on 3 or so years with her I cannot imagine having a better dog > for my 1st Guide Dog. Her enthusiasm, exuberance, energy, dedication, ETC > are beyond measure. > Kolby > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Lora and Myrtle > Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:22 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Mobility Methods > > Congradulations you found a match with sunny. Why is sunny so old > compared > to other dogs that are issued out? Was she a donation dog? > > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Kolby Garrison > wrote: > > > Hello Everyone, > > I knew that I wanted to partner with a Guide Dog as soon as I was old > > enough > > to understand what a Guide Dog could do. After graduating High School I > > went > > to Guide Dogs For The Blind in San Rafael, California to receive my 1st > > Guide Dog, but things did not work out for me there. The 2 dogs that I > was > > matched with were not the right dogs for me, and I came home without a > dog. > > I was devastated and my confidence became nonexistent. I learned my > College > > campus using the cane with the help of a wonderful Orientation And > Mobility > > Instructor who helped me realize my independence potential, and who > worked > > with me for hours on end making sure that I was ready by the 1st day of > > classes. I applied to The Guide Dog Foundation For The Blind, because I > > knew > > more than ever that a Guide Dog was the right thing for me. My confidence > > increased, and by the time my home interview with GDF rolled around I was > > confident and independent with the cane. I was accepted to GDF and > matched > > with Sunny in June of this year. She is a 5 year old female Golden > > Retriever, and she has changed my life. The lack of tactile feedback took > > some getting use to, but I will not ever go back to using the cane as I > > have > > said before. People talked to me when I was using my cane just as much as > > they do now that I am partnered with Sunny, and yes even Guide Dog users > > have to ask for help. Learning new routes is just as difficult with a > Guide > > Dog as it is with the cane, and I will be very interested to see how > Sunny > > responds to the new routes, buildings, and classes that we will be > working > > on very soon for the upcoming semester. > > If anyone has any questions concerning why partnering with a Guide Dog is > > the right thing for me personally, please do ask. I am of the opinion > that > > individuals should use the methods that work best for them in all > > circumstances, and working with a Guide Dog is what works best for me. I > am > > enjoying all of the discussions on this list about various aspects of > being > > a blind student. > > Thank You, > > Kolby > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindhistory%40gmail > .com > > > > > > -- > Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kolbygarrison%40tria > d.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindhistory%40gmail.com > -- Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle From fantasyfanatic01 at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 14:16:55 2008 From: fantasyfanatic01 at gmail.com (Franandah Damstra) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:16:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Win a Wii Video Game System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wii's are awesome. I don't think a blind person could play it alone, but I have a riot playing them with my friends and family. On 11/26/08, Melissa Ann Riccobono wrote: > Hello everyone, > The National Federation of the Blind of Maryland is running a holiday > raffle for a chance to win a Wii video game system, plus $300! > Chances to win are only $10 a piece and there will only be 1,000 chances > sold. > The winning number will be drawn on Christmas Eve, or sooner if the > 1,000 chances are sold out before that time. > > > > To purchase tickets, please visit > > http://www.nfbmd.org/Wii/WiiRules.html > > > Be sure to get your name in the contest and advertise this with your > friends and family. This is a great way to help the NFB of Maryland > and provide a nice gift for someone in your family--or yourself > Melissa Riccobono, President, National Federation of the Blind of Maryland > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fantasyfanatic01%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 17:18:03 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 09:18:03 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Skill Training and Reinforcement for High School Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081202171803.GB91487@yumi.bluecherry.net> Hi Arielle, 1. I did not receive Braille because I came to the Oregon School for the Blind as a large print reader. My vision is stable, if variable based on lighting conditions, so they figured I should continue to adjust the lighting and fonts to my preferences. Other skill areas were taught to me at the school, but at the time I was there, the full benefit of those programs was not available to me until I was "closer to transition". It turns out that I essentially transitioned myself at age 17, with a very incomplete skill set. Prior to my arrival at the Oregon School for the Blind, Mid-Oregon Regional Program provided me with an O&M instructor and an itinerant teacher I saw usually about once a week at first, less later on. These and other services are now provided in and around the Salem, Oregon area by Willamette ESD. The ESDs are not part of districts--Oregon funds these things directly out of the state Department of Education budget. This means when the state budget for education is cut, teachers of the blind and of the deaf are laid off. There is of course a critical need for and shortage of such professionals in Oregon, but there's a decided lack of budget to pay for more. 2. I'll echo the sentiments of others: Go do it. Few maintain memory of the Braille if they don't practice it regularly, and fewer still maintain the sensory skills needed without regular practice. Remember, a print reader is considered fluent if they exceed 120 words per minute, and the expectation is that by the end of elementary school that a student can read at 200 words per minute or faster. Can you do that in Braille? Diabetes and neuropathy aside, yes you can, if you want it and put forth the effort. For cooking, start with something simple, figure out what's involved, and get someone to walk you through the process start to finish. Just about anybody can help you do it, though there are a few non-visual techniques you're going to have to learn how to use. If your mentor is sighted, it would help if they know what they are, but as long as you know, it should be sufficient that they believe you can learn to cook, and be safe in doing so. The basic skills you'll need involve using a knife without watching what you cut while maintaining all of your fingers, and being able to tell when things like meats are properly cooked. If you're like me, you're going to want that person to be RIGHT THERE to tell you what to do next. I was totally clueless in the kitchen, and I know that food preparation is as much about timing as anything else. This gave me high levels of anxiety, and Julee Mullen several gray hairs I'm sure. (Sorry Julee!) Oh yes, touching the top of the food to see if it's done cooking: Check with the cooking implement to make sure you're reaching in to touch food, not pan. I didn't learn that one the hard way, but I have heard recently that someone else did. Ouch. Also, be mindful of how much lighter fluid you use on the charcoal if you're going to do some grilling. And do keep in mind that the fumes from the lighter fluid are quite flammable, so you wouldn't want to close the grill before you light the charcoal. That one I did learn the hard way. Great story on that one, but I'll forgo the telling just now. I'd say travel is like cooking, except you can't really depend on just anybody who thinks you can do it teaching you how its done. Cars are a lot bigger and heavier than you are, and they're made out of tougher stuff. If you and a car try to move into the same space at the same time, you're likely to wind up dead. So, how do you do it? Get a cane that is an appropriate length, first. If you got one years ago and have done some growing since then, I can pretty much promise you it's too short. The NFB's training centers recommend a nose-high cane, but I've seen people use shorter or longer. The longer canes work best with your palm facing generally upward. I had to develop my own technique because when I first started using the longer cane, I didn't have the muscle control for that particular position, and I did a lot of travel outside of travel classes. You'll figure out what works for you, I'm confident of that. The trick is that it has to be comfortable for you to use, and you want to keep the cane centered and walk in step. If it's not centered, you'll be unprotected on one side. Also, if your cane is centered and you're walking in step the way you've hopefully been shown, you'll tend to move in a straight line and tend not to veer off in one direction too easily unless you have some other disability that affects your movement. I'll assume that guide dog users have their own techniques for such things, and I don't really know what they are in detail. The best dog schools want you to have at least passingly good cane skills before you start, but I've seen what even GDB considers "good enough" cane skills, and I haven't been impressed with their minimum standards. Regardless of mobility tools employed, you need to be able to get from a known point A to a known point B, without getting turned around in the process. If you're blind, use your ears and listen to everything around you. The air moving over a lot of parked cars sounds differently than it does through trees or over grass, and you can hear the difference even across the street. Traffic noises can serve as directional cues, and you can hear surges in traffic at an upcoming traffic light long before you get there. Eric Woods describes the difference between a good traveler and a great one as the distance at which they are receiving information. Like I said, you can hear the traffic at an upcoming light long before you get there, so why would you ignore that information right up until you get there, then stand at the corner confusing drivers as to whether or not you intend to cross a street or not for two or three cycles while you figure out how the intersection moves? You won't learn the skill with traditional O&M instruction, but you don't need permission from an O&M teacher to use your ears and your brain. There are a set of guidelines for crossing a street safely. Cross lighted intersections with the parallel traffic on your side of the street. They may be next to you or across the street from you. When in doubt, wait for the next cycle. Cross with the beginning surge if you aren't sure it's safe to cross. Just because the light's green or the walk sign is on (and possibly squawking at you) doesn't mean it's safe to start walking. There are two-way stops, four-way stops, T intersections, and T intersections where a car can go straight into a parking lot. There are specific guidelines for crossing each. Circles, roundabouts, streets at odd angles, and intersections of more than two streets are all just more advanced versions of basic skills. For crossing an uncontrolled intersection (two-way stops) where you can't reliably count on an all-quiet for crossing, you're going to have to learn how to determine how wide the street is, how long it's going to take you to get across, and how far away the cars you hear in the distance are from where you are right now. Listen and time it. Look and time it if you've got some vision to use. It takes me about 10 to 11 seconds to cross about three lanes of traffic, and I move at a good pace. Time it at some lighted intersections. In short, if you don't know you can get across the street safely given the gaps in traffic, don't do it. I live a block from a highway, and there are times I can cross its four or five lanes trivially, anywhere. Sometimes while I'm waiting for a gap, someone will stop for me. (That's annoying because the guys on the opposite side of the street might not.) That said, there are times of the day that I'll walk several blocks out of my way to cross at a lighted intersection because there just isn't a safe gap for crossing five lanes of traffic--and I'm pretty confident that I'm one of the best travelers with or without vision you're ever likely to find. Sometimes it just isn't safe to cross in certain spots. You can practice the stuff that doesn't involve street crossings yourself or with someone else. You can find some trusted person to walk with you if you know what the skills are and ask them to confirm before you step out into traffic. If they know what you want from them, "Now?" is usually sufficient. Hopefully, if they answer "No", they can tell you why not and you can factor that in to your next prediction. The street crossing guidelines should probably come from someone who knows what they are--an O&M teacher, travel instructor, or some really good blind traveler if you aren't able to get one of the first two. That's all the mechanical stuff. It doesn't really cover how you get where you're going. Every city has rules for which side of the street odd and even addresses can be found, patterns for addresses, central streets, that sort of thing. Figure out what they are for where you're going to. If the streets aren't too crazy (and even if they are), you should be able to start with an address and figure out how to get out there based on these patterns. From there, you should be able to integrate information from your local mass transit system to figure out how to get close to the place you're going, and find your way from there. Figuring out where bus stops are can be a challenge. Your driver should know where the return stop is, and it can't hurt to ask. If there's some common pattern to bus stops in your area, that can help too, but I've found that more often than not there isn't a solid pattern you can depend upon, other than if you find a covered bus shelter, something's likely to stop there sooner or later. Possibly not what you want and possibly not any time real soon--particularly in the cases of limited service stops, but at least you know that it is in fact a stop for some bus, whether or not that is helpful to you. *grin* A GPS can help, but bad weather, tall buildings, being indoors, and the imprecision of address location data all combine to make the things less useful than you might think. Sometimes your best bet is just to walk into the first establishment you can find and ask directions. You'll be amazed what you find out doing that. 3. The Oregon Commission for the Blind operates a Summer Work Experience Program (SWEP) at Reed College in Portland, Oregon and at the Oregon School for the Blind in Salem for those students needing more support. You live in a dormitory, are responsible for feeding and cleaning up after yourself, and you work in an internship position. You earn a "paycheck" (really more of a stipend) for a part-time job at Oregon's minimum wage, and it's well more than enough to cover your expenses if you manage your money well. It is a great opportunity, and I highly recommend it to people in the area in the 15-18 age range. The Oregon School for the Blind also operates summer camps to do various interesting things. I went to one where we did something or other out in one of Oregon's forests. It was more than half my life ago now, so the details are a bit hazy in my mind. *grin* I just remember we were outdoors, doing something useful, and though I didn't generally like the whole outdoorsy thing, I did find someone there I really felt a connection to, which made it all worthwhile. I've lost track of her over the years, sadly, but I hear she's doing some good work nowadays. These kind of things were valuable experiences, no matter what I thought at the time. I didn't get as much out of them as I perhaps could have, and that was kind of my own fault. I was too busy being an angry-at-the-world angsty teenager with a disability to take full advantage of some really wonderful opportunities that were available to me. I had been too jaded by previous experiences, so I kind of burned a few bridges when some chances came along to learn and grow. That's why I'm 30 and still "transitioning" as it were. Hopefully others can learn from my mistake and use what's available to them right now so that they don't have to spend their twenties figuring out all of the stuff they missed when they had the chance. Sorry Arielle, this came out a lot longer than I expected it was going to. Joseph On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 01:34:58PM +1100, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Hello all, > >A while ago, I started a discussion on the list about skills that are >important for high school students to master before transitioning into >college, work, and adult life in general. Since then I have been asked >to help write a page for the new NABS Web site describing these skill >goals as well as resources for high school students to use to sharpen >their skills and confidence in preparation for transitioning after >graduation. Of course, we will provide information about the summer >youth programs at each of the three NFB training centers. But for >those high schoolers who can't get to a training center or who want >additional support during the year, I need your input about other >practical ways that these students can work on building their skills >while still in school. A few more specific questions for you guys: > >1. Did any of you receive Braille, travel, home management, etc. >training from someone in your local area outside of your school >district? If so, who was it and how did you find this teacher? > >2. What are some suggestions for things students can do every day to >reinforce their skills in Braille, computers, travel, and home >management after initially learning them? (For example, a Braille tip >would be to try to read Braille books for pleasure as much as >possible). > >3. What kinds of extracurricular activities, camps, etc. did you guys >participate in that you feel contributed to your skill development? > >Please tell us about your experiences--I'm hoping to include as many >ideas from the list as possible in this Web page. > >Thanks everyone for your contributions. You are helping to mentor and >support the next generation of blind youth! > >Happy Thanksgiving! > >Arielle Silverman >First Vice-President, National Association of Blind Students > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Dec 2 20:33:42 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 15:33:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [Nfb-science] Looking for Blind Person in Broadcasting Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: nfb-science-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-science-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David B Andrews (by way of David Andrews ) Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:34 PM To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [Nfb-science] Looking for Blind Person in Broadcasting >>> Janice Bailey 12/2/2008 11:52 AM >>> jan.bailey at state.mn.us I have a client who has a good opportunity to work for a radio station as an announcer. They use the Google Radio Automation system with a touch screen. The question is, could this be done with a keyboard? Our technology person is going out with me to look at this situation, but I'm wondering if anyone out there has anyone who is totally blind working at a radio station with automated equipment. Some other terms given to me were SS 32 and D mark. My client needs to do radio announcing, read the news, put in the commercials, or start them, not create them, and do some live broadcasting on mike. They definitely will hire him if the job could be made accessible. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Jan Bailey State Services for the Blind Rochester, Minnesota 55904 phone: 507-280-5563 or 1-800-657-3836 jan.bailey at state.mn.us _______________________________________________ Nfb-science mailing list Nfb-science at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-science_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nfb-science: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-science_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar% 40utoronto.ca From valandkayla at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 22:11:40 2008 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:11:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services Message-ID: Hi, my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: situations before finals is never good. anyway... one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, i've still not gotten my outline. Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the class to me. We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to revise. The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to the information provided above...any thought? Val From jrhoads284 at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 22:42:14 2008 From: jrhoads284 at gmail.com (Jamie Rhoads) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 17:42:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services References: Message-ID: <287CCD43F5C74212898F8D7D89B19ACF@rhoads> Hey Valorie First thing, wellcome to the list, and glad you have come seaking help. Now to your issues. As far as the DSS office not getting the papers to you on time. What you probably should have done and should do next time is make sure to call them every couple days to see if the paper is ready. I noticed you said that they usually call you when something is ready. That is good, but keep in mind they probably have many other students to keep track of, and it isn't their responsibility to let you know when something is ready to be picked up even if they say they will. You need to remember you are not in high school anymore, and you need to take these kinds of issues into your own hands. This will probably impress your DSS office as well if you put an active effort into getting your materials no matter what they may be. As for not getting your outline, keep on your professor. If need be, get someone from your DSS office to contact him/her. Just remember that old saying *the squeeky wheel gets the greace* It is hard sometimes to do these types of things, but while I was in school, it was one of the things I needed to learn in order to get things accomplished in an orderly fashion and when I wanted to. Secondly about your english professor, this is just one of those things we as blind people need to accept and honestly we shouldn't be mad about it. Yes, we have other opsticals to overcome and yes it seems very unfair, but in the end we want to be treated just like any other student would, so we need to accept and understand why sometimes professors won't give us that extra time or help. We can't go around saying we want to be equally treated, but then want extra time on something such as when we are sick. Now, if she were giving her sighted students extra time if they were sick, that's a different issue. You need to step back and see this as the professor is probably only trying to treat you as the same as she does her sighted students. One last thing, I don't see why you have a problem with using DSS. I used them all the way through school and it made things much easier. I got my books in formats that I needed, a letter to give to all my professors explaining my disability and the accommodations i would need, and many other things that helped school go a lot more smoothe. We want to be independent and that is fine, but if we need the help from the DSS office that is also fine because that is what they are there for. I hope this helps. Please don't take this as i'm being mean. These are things that I either have had said to me at one point, or things I truly believe. It isn't anything against you personally. Jamie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valerie Gibson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > Hi, > my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for > feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: > situations before finals is never good. anyway... > > one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: > when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen > btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes > and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those > teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline > for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, > natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. > > "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from > disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. > > I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS > to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. > > Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down > any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. > they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after > filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up > the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell > when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i > finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, > i've still not gotten my outline. > > Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open > professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even > when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the > class to me. > > We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the > semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first > project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second > project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest > grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should > have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to > revise. > > The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the > holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her > if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical > papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. > > If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with > little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines > are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i > ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, > before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and > now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". > > and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to > the information provided above...any thought? > > Val > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads284%40gmail.com From corbbo at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 00:49:14 2008 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:49:14 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Valerie, I'm sure that through these experiences, you've learned--as many of us have--the hard way that procrastination is never a good idea! Having worked in a Disability Support Services office, I don't really have any solutions for you at this point for this past semester. But for next semester, I'd start early and harp on your professors to get you the information that you need. On the bright side, though: you should have your notes or thoughts from the psych course even without the outline. So rely on those as you head toward the final exam. For your English class, I'd just present your professor with the e-mail where she said it would be fine to hand in the work late. Be polite, of course, and say you were relying on that message when working on the assignments. Ponder this, though: something I've learned while studying here in Ireland. Do what you can, and if it doesn't work out, so be it. There's nothing more you can do for your English class, and you can study what you have for psych. Good luck, work hard, and look forward to doing something differently next semester! Corbb O'Connor ----- Corbb O'Connor studying at the National University of Ireland, Galway On Dec 2, 2008, at 10:11 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: Hi, my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: situations before finals is never good. anyway... one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, i've still not gotten my outline. Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the class to me. We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to revise. The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to the information provided above...any thought? Val _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Dec 3 01:16:08 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:16:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Val, I'm sorry you're experiencing this, especially during final season where stress levels are high enough as it is. I'm a freshman too, and I can definitely understand your challenges. As much as it can be inconvenient to work with DSS or its equivalent, it appears it is officially necessary, for future reference. Sorry If that's obvious. If you process things in word, you can get the formatting details such as font size, colour, and spacing by using the JAWS command insert plus f. Have you made friends in your classes or other places at school? They would probably be happy to check things like formatting and such. Also, can you explain your situation to DSS, and see if they can intercede on your behalf to this prof? You obviously want to do the work and haven't been slacking or anything, so they should help you out because you've been a dedicated student. This is especially true because you put the effort out to contact your profs. Would it be possible to have a face-to-face meeting with your profs and a councilor from DSS? It would be harder for them to say no if they're looking you in the eye and can see your concerns first-hand. Sorry this is long-winded, and I hope things improve. Sincerely, Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services Hi, my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: situations before finals is never good. anyway... one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, i've still not gotten my outline. Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the class to me. We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to revise. The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to the information provided above...any thought? Val _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From sarah at growingstrong.org Wed Dec 3 01:45:39 2008 From: sarah at growingstrong.org (Sarah J. Blake) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 20:45:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services References: Message-ID: <036801c954e8$d9796fd0$6501a8c0@SBLAPTOP> Hi, Val. I don't have any suggestions that will help in the short run. However, it is possible to learn to handle your own formatting. Are you using JAWS or another screen reader? Are you writing your papers in Word? What version? This is a problem you will have throughout your college career, and it would be wise to master use of these tools. Sarah J. Blake http://www.growingstrong.org sjblake at growingstrong.org I'm protected by SpamBrave http://www.spambrave.com/ From weathertrooper at msn.com Thu Dec 4 02:41:46 2008 From: weathertrooper at msn.com (Ben Moore) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:41:46 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Subject: Re: Win a Wii Video Game System Message-ID: Yeah, the Wii's pretty fun. Can a Blind person play it alone? Absolutely! *points thumb at chest and smiles*. Lot easier than playing Gears of War 2 on the 360, that's for sure! Plus you get to play with family members instead of immature 12-year olds talking trash online. From MathType at dessci.com Wed Dec 3 03:23:24 2008 From: MathType at dessci.com (Design Science) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:23:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Press Release: MathType 6.5 for Windows is available Message-ID: Hi, Today we released MathType 6.5 for Windows. The complete press release is included below and is also available on our website at http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/081202.htm. Starting with this release, we are positioning MathType as a universal editor for mathematical notation. MathType already works with hundreds of applications and websites and we are now maintaining a list of them online in our MathType Interoperability Registry. This is just the beginning. Ultimately, we would like to make cut and paste of mathematics between applications and websites as easy as plain text. Please let us know if you have questions. Best Regards, --Bruce Bruce Virga EVP of Sales & Business Development, COO brucev at dessci.com Tel: +1 (562) 432-2920 Fax: +1 (562) 432-2857 Mobile: +1 (949) 233-8212 Design Science, Inc. -- www.dessci.com 140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor Long Beach, California 90802 USA ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, WebEQ, Equation Editor ~ =========================== For Immediate Release =========================== MathType 6.5 for Windows is Now Shipping New version designed to work with hundreds of education and scientific software applications and websites LONG BEACH, Calif. ­ December 2, 2008 ­ Design Science today announced the release of MathType™ 6.5 for Windows, a new version designed to work with a wide variety of education and scientific applications and websites. The company introduced its Equations Everywhere and Anywhere!™ initiative, hosting the MathType Interoperability Registry on its website, a listing of several hundred popular educational and scientific applications and websites that MathType now works with. This new version also includes translators for Mathematica and Maple, MathML import, and enables users to type TeX/LaTeX equations directly into Microsoft Word. "Scientists, engineers and educators are now using a much wider variety of applications and websites in their work than ever before," said Paul R. Topping, Design Science's President & CEO. "We're quite excited to release a new version of MathType that works with many of these. We're listening to our customers and adding more to the MathType Interoperability Registry as fast as we possibly can." In addition to Microsoft Word and PowerPoint, MathType now works with Wikipedia, Moodle, Adobe InDesign, Blackboard, QuarkXPress, Autograph, SigmaPlot, SMART Notebook, and SmartDraw to name a few. MathType has long been known as the professional version of the Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, used by millions of educators, scientists and engineers to create papers and presentations with textbook-quality equations. According to scientific and technical publishers, over 85% of submitted manuscripts containing mathematical notation are Microsoft Word documents with MathType or Equation Editor equations. MathType is US $57 for academic users, $97 for non-academic users; upgrades are US $37 for academic users, $49 for non-academic users. Anyone can download MathType from the Design Science website and try it free for 30 days. About Design Science Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, California, Design Science develops software used by educators, scientists and publishing professionals, including MathType, Equation Editor in Microsoft Office, WebEQ, MathFlow and MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in print. For more information please visit www.dessci.com. ### Design Science 140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor Long Beach, CA 90802 USA From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 3 04:24:39 2008 From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:24:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Press Release: MathType 6.5 for Windows is available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone tried Math Type? Will Math Type translate the numbers in Nemethz? Will Jaws be able to read the equations in Nemeth? Will the equations come out as gaevled mess after you write it? Albert > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:23:24 -0600> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org> From: MathType at dessci.com> Subject: [nabs-l] Press Release: MathType 6.5 for Windows is available> > > Hi,> > Today we released MathType 6.5 for Windows. The > complete press release is included below and is > also available on our website at > http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/081202.htm.> > Starting with this release, we are positioning > MathType as a universal editor for mathematical > notation. MathType already works with hundreds of > applications and websites and we are now > maintaining a list of them online in our MathType > Interoperability Registry. This is just the > beginning. Ultimately, we would like to make cut > and paste of mathematics between applications and > websites as easy as plain text.> > Please let us know if you have questions.> > Best Regards,> --Bruce> > Bruce Virga> EVP of Sales & Business Development, COO> brucev at dessci.com> > Tel: +1 (562) 432-2920> Fax: +1 (562) 432-2857> Mobile: +1 (949) 233-8212> > Design Science, Inc. -- > www.dessci.com > > 140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor> Long Beach, California 90802 USA> > ~ Makers of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, WebEQ, Equation Editor ~> > ===========================> For Immediate Release> ===========================> > > MathType 6.5 for Windows is Now Shipping> > > > > New version designed to work with hundreds of > education and scientific software applications and websites> > LONG BEACH, Calif. ­ December 2, 2008 ­ Design > Science today announced the release of MathType™ > 6.5 for Windows, a new version designed to work > with a wide variety of education and scientific > applications and websites. The company introduced > its Equations Everywhere and Anywhere!™ > initiative, hosting the MathType Interoperability > Registry on its website, a listing of several > hundred popular educational and scientific > applications and websites that MathType now works > with. This new version also includes translators > for Mathematica and Maple, MathML import, and > enables users to type TeX/LaTeX equations directly into Microsoft Word.> > "Scientists, engineers and educators are now > using a much wider variety of applications and > websites in their work than ever before," said > Paul R. Topping, Design Science's President & > CEO. "We're quite excited to release a new > version of MathType that works with many of > these. We're listening to our customers and > adding more to the MathType Interoperability > Registry as fast as we possibly can." In addition > to Microsoft Word and PowerPoint, MathType now > works with Wikipedia, Moodle, Adobe InDesign, > Blackboard, QuarkXPress, Autograph, SigmaPlot, > SMART Notebook, and SmartDraw to name a few.> > MathType has long been known as the professional > version of the Equation Editor in Microsoft > Office, used by millions of educators, scientists > and engineers to create papers and presentations > with textbook-quality equations. According to > scientific and technical publishers, over 85% of > submitted manuscripts containing mathematical > notation are Microsoft Word documents with > MathType or Equation Editor equations.> > MathType is US $57 for academic users, $97 for > non-academic users; upgrades are US $37 for > academic users, $49 for non-academic users. > Anyone can download MathType from the Design > Science website and try it free for 30 days.> > > About Design Science> > Founded in 1986 and headquartered in Long Beach, > California, Design Science develops software used > by educators, scientists and publishing > professionals, including MathType, Equation > Editor in Microsoft Office, WebEQ, MathFlow and > MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in > print. For more information please visit > www.dessci.com.> > ###> Design Science> 140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor> Long Beach, CA 90802> USA> > > _______________________________________________> nabs-l mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008 From amylsabo at comcast.net Wed Dec 3 04:40:36 2008 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 04:40:36 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services Message-ID: <120320080440.2421.49360DC400041E76000009752200745672010D0E9C0497030E@comcast.net> hello val, first of all i'm sorry for these issues that you are having with your first semester at college. as for the first situation i would have been more communicative with your prof in getting the notes from him/her. if not then you needed to deal with dss on this. i have had to deal with this on some issues and they can help emensely! secondally as to your english class i can understand on the formatting thing in how things look in word but, you need to proofread it yourself or have someone do it for you. as to the assignments for your class i have had to deal with this situation in dealing with sickness but, we want to be on a equal footing with our sighted partners. so, you need to do what you need to complete the assignments on time. we all make mistakes and hopefully you can learn from them and hopefully it won't happen again to you too! take care and good luck to you in this! hugs, amy sabo -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Valerie Gibson" > Hi, > my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for > feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: > situations before finals is never good. anyway... > > one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: > when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen > btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes > and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those > teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline > for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, > natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. > > "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from > disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. > > I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS > to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. > > Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down > any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. > they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after > filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up > the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell > when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i > finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, > i've still not gotten my outline. > > Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open > professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even > when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the > class to me. > > We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the > semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first > project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second > project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest > grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should > have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to > revise. > > The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the > holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her > if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical > papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. > > If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with > little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines > are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i > ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, > before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and > now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". > > and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to > the information provided above...any thought? > > Val > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 04:43:33 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 23:43:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Press Release: MathType 6.5 for Windows is available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4383d01d0812022043s4d36a646l60de642812ad8949@mail.gmail.com> Gee, I have never heard of this math type program. Beth On 12/2/08, Albert Yoo wrote: > > Has anyone tried Math Type? Will Math Type translate the numbers in Nemethz? > Will Jaws be able to read the equations in Nemeth? Will the equations come > out as gaevled mess after you write it? Albert > Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 > 21:23:24 -0600> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org> From: MathType at dessci.com> > Subject: [nabs-l] Press Release: MathType 6.5 for Windows is available> > > > Hi,> > Today we released MathType 6.5 for Windows. The > complete press > release is included below and is > also available on our website at > > http://www.dessci.com/en/company/press/releases/081202.htm.> >> Starting with this release, we are positioning > MathType as a universal > editor for mathematical > notation. MathType already works with hundreds of >> applications and websites and we are now > maintaining a list of them > online in our MathType > Interoperability Registry. This is just the > > beginning. Ultimately, we would like to make cut > and paste of mathematics > between applications and > websites as easy as plain text.> > Please let us > know if you have questions.> > Best Regards,> --Bruce> > Bruce Virga> EVP of > Sales & Business Development, COO> > brucev at dessci.com> > Tel: +1 (562) 432-2920> Fax: > +1 (562) 432-2857> Mobile: +1 (949) 233-8212> > Design Science, Inc. -- > > www.dessci.com >> > 140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor> Long Beach, California 90802 USA> > ~ Makers > of MathType, MathFlow, MathPlayer, WebEQ, Equation Editor ~> > > ===========================> For Immediate Release> > ===========================> > > MathType 6.5 for Windows is Now Shipping> > >> > > New version designed to work with hundreds of > education and > scientific software applications and websites> > LONG BEACH, Calif. ­ > December 2, 2008 ­ Design > Science today announced the release of MathType™ >> 6.5 for Windows, a new version designed to work > with a wide variety of > education and scientific > applications and websites. The company introduced >> its Equations Everywhere and Anywhere!™ > initiative, hosting the MathType > Interoperability > Registry on its website, a listing of several > hundred > popular educational and scientific > applications and websites that MathType > now works > with. This new version also includes translators > for > Mathematica and Maple, MathML import, and > enables users to type TeX/LaTeX > equations directly into Microsoft Word.> > "Scientists, engineers and > educators are now > using a much wider variety of applications and > > websites in their work than ever before," said > Paul R. Topping, Design > Science's President & > CEO. "We're quite excited to release a new > version > of MathType that works with many of > these. We're listening to our > customers and > adding more to the MathType Interoperability > Registry as > fast as we possibly can." In addition > to Microsoft Word and PowerPoint, > MathType now > works with Wikipedia, Moodle, Adobe InDesign, > Blackboard, > QuarkXPress, Autograph, SigmaPlot, > SMART Notebook, and SmartDraw to name a > few.> > MathType has long been known as the professional > version of the > Equation Editor in Microsoft > Office, used by millions of educators, > scientists > and engineers to create papers and presentations > with > textbook-quality equations. According to > scientific and technical > publishers, over 85% of > submitted manuscripts containing mathematical > > notation are Microsoft Word documents with > MathType or Equation Editor > equations.> > MathType is US $57 for academic users, $97 for > non-academic > users; upgrades are US $37 for > academic users, $49 for non-academic users. >> Anyone can download MathType from the Design > Science website and try it > free for 30 days.> > > About Design Science> > Founded in 1986 and > headquartered in Long Beach, > California, Design Science develops software > used > by educators, scientists and publishing > professionals, including > MathType, Equation > Editor in Microsoft Office, WebEQ, MathFlow and > > MathPlayer, to communicate on the web and in > print. For more information > please visit > > www.dessci.com.> >> ###> Design Science> 140 Pine Avenue, 4th Floor> Long Beach, CA 90802> > USA> > > _______________________________________________> nabs-l mailing > list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, > change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > Suspicious message? There's an alert for that. > http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From aguimaraes at nbp.org Wed Dec 3 14:35:23 2008 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:35:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: NBP-Announce: GENERAL: Anna Dresner's 'It's Not on the Keyboard:Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word' Message-ID: <006801c95554$60a4d9c0$3c64a8c0@nbp2.local> Hello all, this new book addresses a subject we talk about from time to time on the list. Antonio Guimaraes Customer Service national Braille Press ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Grima" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:14 AM Subject: NBP-Announce: GENERAL: Anna Dresner's 'It's Not on the Keyboard:Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word' > It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign > Languages in Word > By Anna Dresner > In braille, PortaBook, or ASCII Text, $5 > > Accents, the copyright symbol, the yen sign, diacritical marks, > alphabets such as Cyrillic-if you use a screen reader or braille display > and need to type characters that aren't on the standard keyboard, this > booklet will help! > > This book covers the two scenarios in which you might want to type such > characters: One, if you need to type things like the copyright symbol, > the yen sign, or an e with an acute accent but are working primarily in > English; and two, if you want to type in a language that uses many > symbols that aren't on the standard keyboard or are in a completely > different alphabet, and you want to have them all readily available on > the keyboard. Author Anna Dresner also covers how to work in a foreign > language, and offers helpful tips such as controlling the AutoCorrect > feature and making shortcut keys for symbols. > > > Check out the table of contents: > http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/SPECIAL.html > > > ****** > To order any books, send payment to: > NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 > Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext > 20. Or order any of our books online at > http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . > > > _______________________________________________ > Nbp mailing list > Nbp at nbp.org > > PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your > query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . > > Visit us at http://www.nbp.org > To unsubscribe from this list, go to: > http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/query/unsub.html?list=elist > From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:48:21 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:48:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Here is history of the white cane Message-ID: <49369c3c.85c2f10a.60cb.2975@mx.google.com> Thanks to Robert for posting this! I am so glad for this new history group! And the writer's group! (okay--ALL our groups!) Parents, students and teachers I think this history of the cane will give you some perspective on just how new the cane instruction/profession is and is still very much in a formative stage (though many O and M certified act as if what they know/been taught are laws of nature) and why the philosophies and levels of expertise and knowledge in the profession are so variable. Remember kid's canes were not ever manufactured in the history of the world until the 1980's and we are the ones who did it. In the history of the whole world cane and travel instruction for children (even adults relatively) is newborn--new born! Hope you enjoy and it helps with your understanding. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 11:32 PM To: NFB History Support List Subject: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Here is history of the white cane Hello: I thought I would forward this from the writer's group. There is a bibliography at the end. Regards, Robert Jaquiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Newman" To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:46 PM Subject: [stylist] Here is history of the white cane I wrote Jeff Altman, the Nebraska Training Center travel instructor. He has two articles dealing with the history of the cane and our use of it. Here is the first article. There will be a second one that apparently gets more into facts or something. The History of Orientation and Mobility The use of the cane or the staff by the blind dates back to antiquity, but the organized study of cane use is perhaps as recent as the last half of the last century. Cane technique as we have come to know it today, with the use of the Long Cane, dates back to World War 11. This is roughly fifty years ago. The prime mover in the technique, Richard Hoover (a man of remarkable talent) died in 1986. The roots of blind mobility are often attributed to the Old Testament. The concern for the blind is traced to Deuteronomy X.X.V.1.1., 18, "Cursed be he that maketh the blind wander out of his way, and all the people shall say Amen." The use of the staff by the blind has its roots in Greek Mythology. "The ancient Prophet Teresias was deprived of sight for an offense against the gods, he was compassioned by the goddess Charicolo, who in pity for his misfortune gave him a staff, by which he could conduct his steps with as much safety as if he had use of his eye sight" In the Biography of the Blind, James Wilson (I 83 5) offers these observations on the use of a cane: "A blind man inclines to the hand in which the staff is carried, and this often has a tendency to lead him astray when he travels on a road with which he is unacquainted." Wilson goes on to describe the establishment of The Asylum of the Blind in Belfast in the year 1800. If a formalized program for cane instruction existed there was not made clear by Wilson. The first formalized system of cane travel was offered by William Hanks Levy (I 872) in Blindness and Blind. Levy's basic technique was as follows: The cane is held in the right hand. It is held vertically six inches in front of the user. The hand grasps the hook (crook) of the stick, protecting the hand with the body of the cane. (Note that a straight cane would not be usable with this method.) Before starting, "the stick should gently sweep the ground in front." While in motion the user waves the stick from left to right in step with the feet. Levy's system also includes the need for use of the other senses. Hearing detects the approach of people and things. Smell helps detect landmarks. And the use of thin shoes literally helps the traveler get the feel of the terrain. The qualities of the stick are also addressed. It needs to be light but not elastic, so impressions can be transmitted. The handle must be like a hook. Height should vary with the individual, though no measuring system is offered. Levy's (1872) method for obstacle exploration is almost identical to today's use of a cane. However his true innovation in cane use came in detecting drop-offs and steps: "When steps, or other hindrances are anticipated, the stick should be advanced to its full length, so as to perceive at the earliest possible moment, the circumstances of the position." This is the first recorded use of the cane extended as a probe or bumper. Levy (1872) did not, however, advocate truly independent travel. This is made clear in his descriptions of street crossings; "Comparatively quiet streets may be crossed without a guide but those of considerable traffic should not be attempted. Just touching a first passer - asking him to lead you across the street is better than risking your neck..." In our next installment of the History of O&M we'll look at another novel nineteenth century travel system from England. The History of Orientation and Mobility, part II This is our second installment of the history of Mobility. In the last installment we looked at the system proposed by William Hanks Levy. The next two systems also come from England. After Levy, the next observations in cane travel came 24 years later by E.F.B. Robinson (I 896) in his book The True Sphere of the Blind. His actual cane technique, though novel, did not prove as useful as Levy's, however, his observations on travel and the traveler were most insightful. Robinson's cane technique calls for a straight stick. To start the traveler taps the edge of a sidewalk for the first few steps to draw a straight line of travel. To hold the line of travel Robinson notes that the traveler must walk erect and quickly. The following describes the actual use of the cane; "As he is in a quiet part of town he walks rapidly and balances his cane immediately in front of him, keeping it oscillating like the pendulum of the clock to guard his shins and knees..." (pg. 55) Robinson made other observations about traveling in the environment. He noted people by "tacit agreement," walk down the right side of the sidewalk. Like Levy, he also stresses the feeling of the surface by the feet of the traveler. For the cane itself, he suggests steel. Despite the fact it is heavy, its durability and conductivity qualities are extolled. World War I gave the world the first experiment with mass casualties in this century. The British rehabilitated their war blind at St. Dunstan's. Sir Arnold Lawson (1922) in describing the blinded soldier in his book War Blindness at St. Dunstan's, gives us a psychological insight into the newly blind; "When sight is first lost the patient is plunged into an intellectual abyss. He finds or rather fancies himself completely dependent on others for everything. He cannot walk, eat, or amuse himself his every action seems to necessitate an appeal for help." (pg.131) To combat these problems a mobility system was developed. Lawson describes it as follows; "Thus to enable him around to find his way about the building, narrow strips of carpet, the edges of which can be detected by the stick and which each man is provided, are laid along the corridors: and handrails where necessary afford further help, whilst stairs are indicated by patches of rubber or wood which feet instantly detect." (pg. 132) This would seem to indicate the British supported an organized use of cane for mobility. Perhaps this statement by Sir Arthur Pearson (I 92 1), a blinded war veteran, and later the person in charge of St. Dunstan's will shed light on cane use; "Not long after my sight went I gave up the use of one unless I was walking by myself in a place I didn't know well or I was going for a tramp over rough country... I am quite sure that I got along much better without than I did when I depended upon one. I walked more naturally and felt more confident. The experience of the men of St. Dunstan's who accustomed themselves to this habit agreed with mine." (pg. 34) Surprisingly, Pearson described a fairly sophisticated cane technique. It includes point forward, with occasional tap side to side. He advocates occasional sideways tap along the curb or the wall at the side of the walk to draw a line of travel. Though he sees the cane as the elongation of the arm, he warns that a heavy cane is a reminder of a beggar. This theme is an important one in acceptance of cane use. Observations of the environment were also made. He cautions the blind traveler to pay sharp attention to the dip in the road prior to reaching the curb. He also warns that horse drawn carts may mask the approach noise of fast cars. In our next installment we will look at Richard Hoover and the impact of World War 11. We will also look at the V.A.'s initial refusal to deal with blind rehabilitation. The History of Orientation and Mobility, part III We left off with the british using than discarding their canes. In the late 1920's Seeing Eye came into being. In the late thirties a young instructor, Richard Hoover, at the Maryland School for the Blind had asked the Principal, Warren Bledsoe if he could experiment with independent travel using a cane. The answer at that time was no. But, World War 2 would forever change the field of Mobility. A special committee was created by The Office of the Surgeon General in the Spring and Summer of 1942 to investigate agencies for the Blind in America and overseas. It was believed the war was certain to create many newly blinded servicemen. On May 28, 1943 Valley Forge and Letterman General Hospitals were designated the special treatment center for blind casualties. Pooling its patients also meant pooling its resources. The Army put out its call in the ranks and to civilians to recruit personnel with experience working with the blind. This is how people like Richard Hoover and Warren Bledsoe Junior found their way to Valley Forge. Two other individuals played significant roles at Valley Forge. Father Thomas Carroll, affectionately known as "the blind priest," was a frequent visitor to Valley Forge, and Chaplain at Avon (Old Farms). Kathern Gruber was in charge of the program for the war blinded for The American Foundation for the Blind. Both would become members of the Veteran Administration's Citizen Advisory Committee, and play key roles in the establishment of the VA's Blind Rehabilitation Center at Hines. Initially, the Army believed the VA would receive discharged servicemen and complete their rehabilitation. In his article on the account of Army rehabilitation of blind servicemen Colonel James Greear, suggests that is was believed the VA would establish an institution similar to St. Dunstan's. However, the VA refused to do this. The matter was temporarily resolved on January 8, 1944 when President Roosevelt made the Army the office of primary responsibility to establish a servicing institution for blinded servicemen. ((Editor's Note: The V.A. was in the midst of a huge scandal that was being congressionally investigated when World War 11 broke out. All this action was tabled. In the light of these major problems, it is not shocking they refused to become the sole source provider of blind rehab, a daunting task if one expected World War I type casualties. After the war Omar Bradley, a five star general was appointed to head the V.A. and clean up the problems.)) The V.A. did obtain Avon Old Farms School in Connecticut in Spring 1944, and opened on May 21, 1944 as Old Farms Convalescent Home. Veterans were to go here for follow on training after their Army rehabilitation. On August 25, 1944, Dibble General Hospital (present day Menlo Park) replaced Letterman. Colonel Greear was Chief Ophthalmologist and Hoover's commanding officer at Valley Forge. In recounting the Army's rehabilitation efforts for the blind in an article in "Outlook for the Blind" (1946) he describes how a soldier would learn orientation: "He was expected to learn fairly quickly to get around alone with, and without a cane; to travel easily with people; to get in and out of automobiles, buses and trains: to go up and down stairs and escalator; to go through revolving doors; to walk along unfamiliar streets, following directions, and to explore unfamiliar terrain by using his cane..." In discussing Avon, Greear makes no mention of orientation. Russell Williams offers a far more telling description: "Avon, at the outset of its establishment, held that a cane was not necessary, modifying this doctrine to some extent as time went on with regards to downtown travel, but always appearing to ascribe some particular virtue to avoidance of its use whenever possible." Warren Bledsoe recounts that the Saturday evening Post did an article on Avon entitled "They Learn to See at Avon Farms." The use of facial vision was the topic. The Office of the Surgeon General got involved in favor of the Valley Forge Program. In the summer of 1945 they dispatched an orientor from Valley Forge to Dibble to train staff. This was to insure that service-members reached Avon trained in cane use already. In our next installment we will look at how the Mobility program at Valley Forge really got off the ground. Then we will look at the resistance to it in the outside community. As part of the last installment a will provide a complete bibliography for those interested in further information. The History of Orientation and Mobility, part IV In the last segment we looked at the establishment of special Army training centers at Valley Forge and Dibble. In this segment casualties mount as the Normandy invasion begins in mid 1944. Richard Hoover in his writing recalls that one day at a staff meeting at Valley Forge someone said: "Does anyone here think the blind people in America do a good job getting around. I think they do a poor job." However, Bledsoe recalls the scene quite differently. After the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944, the topic of discussion at a staff meeting was the supposed shattered morale of the newly receive blinded soldiers. It was Hoover who said: "I think the first thing they need to know is how to get around. We've been working on it, but not enough. People say blind people in this country do a good job of getting around. I don't think they do a good job. They do a hell of a poor job. 55 This may have offended some of the staff in the room, but it did prompt then Lieutenant Colonel Greer (Chief of Ophthalmology and Hoover's boss) to examine the possibility of Orientation Training. By this time Hoover was ready to offer formal practical course of training. Colonel Henry Beuuwkes, Hospital Commander, was impressed with Hoover's proposal. He not only agreed to adopting his Long Cane training, but to allow screening and selection of instructors, and the necessary manpower to allow effective training. The following curriculum comes from a 1946 article written by Hoover. Rehabilitation for the blind was slated for 16 weeks, but Valley Forge was a treatment center which could extend the time of a soldier's stay. The orientation course consisted of 98 hours and was broken down as follows: 1. Travel (20 hours) 2. Special Methods (12 hours) 3. Demonstrations (12 hours) 4. Sports (12 hours) 5. Background Lectures (12 hours) 6. Discussion (10 hours) 7. Detail Duty (6 hours) 8. Tests (8 hours) To travel independently the use of five natural aids was taught. They included sound, touch, scent, muscular sensation and obstacle sensation. Hoover remarks that the first three were depended upon most, the last two the least. Editor's Note: There is very little written about the training in obstacle sensation. The movie "Bright Victory" with Arthur Kennedy does have a scene where he is being trained in this, and this is probably an accurate rendition of techniques used. The hospital itself was the initial setting for lessons. The first six without a cane, the next 16 were with one. This setting provided a challenge to the pupil and in Hoover's words, "yet not so difficult to invite defeat in the very beginning." The next nine lessons were taught downtown. Successful completion brought the pupil a furlough. No mention of remedial training is made, but it is logical to assume it was available. The gift of Valley forge goes deeper than just cane technique. It is a comprehensive system that includes the traveler orienting himself and protecting himself even when a cane is not used. Hoover's protection system is the forerunner of the current day Upper Protective Technique. The cane techniques taught by Hoover are almost identical to their successors today, the Touch Technique and Diagonal Technique. Hoover's two true innovations are the length of the cane, and touching it in front of the foot about to step instead of the traditional cane and step on the same side. The cane itself had been a limiting factor. Hoover's outdoor method (Touch Technique) called for an extended cane to follow the principle of cane tip forward suggested by Levy. The added length allowed a safety margin in searching for curbs, obstacles and dropoffs. Wooden canes proved undesirable. In 1945, 300 aluminum canes weighing between six and eight ounces each were obtained. All were a standard length of 45 inches. ((Editor's Note: Aluminum was used in production of airplanes, diversion of this for cane making was a major coup of the time and shows the emphasis given the rehabilitation effort.)) In our next installment we will look briefly at Hoover's philosophy on Mobility training and what happened to him after the war, the resistance in the field, and the establishment of Hines. The History of Orientation and Mobility, part V In our last segment, Richard Hoover had won approval of his idea for Mobility training for the blinded troops sent to Valley Forge. With the approval of Hoover's mobility plan Colonel Beeuwkes had also agreed to the screening of additional staff as orientors. The initial Army move to establish Valley Forge and Dibble as blind rehabilitation centers brought experienced staff, but now Orientors had to be recruited, screened and trained. In recalling the selection process Hoover describes the following: "It has been said that the patients were allowed a very large amount of time to learn their basic skills (months). Such was not the case , however, with their instructors, who had to produce or be disqualified within a few short weeks." A staff of 50 was eventually selected. The peak load at Valley Forge was estimated at about 360 pupils. Their actual screening method was not recorded by Hoover, but by the time they arrived for screening Hoover had developed his Long Cane techniques and was experimenting with them under blindfold. Performance under blindfold seems to have been one of the standards required. Hoover was released from active duty as a First Lieutenant at the beginning of 1947. The VA had approved the opening of Hines on July 12, 1946. The program would not actually begin until July 4, 1948. Hoover was repeatedly offered the position of being in charge of the Blind Rehabilitation Program at Hines. He refused repeatedly. Instead, he entered Johns Hopkins Medical School, and eventually became an Ophthalmologist. He stated; "I think the best thing you can do for the blind is make them see." He was however, in an unprecedented move, made a consultant to the VA Department of Medicine and Surgery while still a medical student. Warren Bledsoe filled the position at Hines which Hoover declined on an interim basis. Later the position would be filled by Russell Williams. Hoover did not abandon mobility. He continued to teach orientation classes while in medical school and residing at the Maryland School for the Blind. He taught students and members from various agencies servicing the blind community. Why was Hoover so concerned to teach orientation? Hoover had been trained to work with the blind, and worked at the Maryland School for the Blind before the war. He offered these thoughts in 1947: "Individuals also become functionally deficient to a certain degree when encountering a more intricate and complex environment. So most of us go on to seek training and education to cope with new situations and lend ourselves pliable to these many situations arising in the competitive world." Hoover goes on to compare Orientation to Plato's ideal concept of education, which is achievement of all one is capable of: "So, consider now, how paramount it is to give an education which establishes an intelligently functioning sensory and motor whole which cannot be produced in part and aims at the ultimate in education of which Plato spoke. Surely, walking without a guide would fall into this category besides its being a necessity, a joy, a right and a privilege." At Valley Forge the population was naturally servicemen. After the war, controversy existed over who could benefit from Hoover's program. The Army had dealt with once sighted male adults, who at the very least, had previously been sighted, and in excellent health. None had been congenitally blind, none had been over sixty. Hoover (1947) clearly addresses what he thinks is the potential target population for training: "...this speaker believes the time to begin orientation and travel is at the earliest possible moment. In the case of the infant the free use of the upper and lower extremities should be encouraged with authoritative training beginning with creeping movements and progressively continued the adapted throughout school years.. For those losing sight at a later age the hospital is the place to start orientation and travel, and it should be continued until the individual is independent and satisfied. There is no limit as to age, but here again, anyone entertaining the foolish notion that absolutely everyone should learn to travel should erase such a wild idea immediately. There are just as many in comparison, no doubt, not mentally or physically prepared for such an event as there are those of us not adequately suited for flying a P80." ((Editor's Note: It is important to consider the time that this statement was made, and the fact that little in the way of blind rehabilitation was being done with multiply involved individuals. This 1947 reference is the only time Hoover expressed his thoughts on this topic in writing, he did write other articles on establishment of the Valley Forge program.)) In our final installment we will look at the controversy over Mobility training. We will also look at the lengths the army went to distance themselves from the controversy. The History of Orientation and Mobility, part VI Seeing a blind person traveling with the aid of a cane may or may not be an every day sight for everyone, but it has certainly become a common one in our society. It seems incomprehensible today to fathom what all the resistance to teaching travel skills was about. At the very least one would reason that independent cane travel was worth trying. Why was there so much bias about the idea of a person with a cane? Art often mirrors and colors the impression of the viewer, and society in general. The art with blind as subjects in western culture has often represented them as pitiful, tattered beggars, often holding a cane. This idea certainly did not escape Pearson, as shown earlier. Rembrandt's Tobias shows a blind man reaching out, groping as if completely, hopelessly lost. Bellange shows a blind man, staff raised to heaven, speaking or questioning. Lagendyk and Parry each did poignant portrayals of blind beggars with canes. Perhaps the idea met with the same inertia all new ideas first meet. Hoover shares this recollection of one visitor: "We had a number of prominent visitors. One outstanding educator of the blind, himself sighted, seemed the epitome of mental blindness one day when he was supposed to be observing a lesson in foot travel and spent most of his time with his back to the instructor and blind soldier, giving a long lecture to his host on what a mess the Army was making of its program for the blind." The position of the Army is very hard to define. Colonel Greear was supportive of Hoover and writes praises of the Orientation Program in his 1946 article. Curiously, in an article published in May 1944 in the same magazine, Outlook for the Blind, he fails to mention anything about Hoover or orientation. It is easy to suppose that the program really did not bear fruit until 1945. This is true, but in the 1946 article Hoover is not mentioned either. There is only a reference to a highly qualified enlisted man who was later commissioned and in charge of the physical reconditioning program, which included orientation. The person is Hoover. Few people are mentioned by name in the are is another incident involving the Army and Hoover. Hoover addressed the American Association of Instructors of the Blind, 38th Stated Meeting, held at Perkins School, June 24-28, 1946. When the proceedings were published after the meeting, Hoover is listed as Lt. Richard E. Hoover. His November article in Outlook for the Blind fails to carry his military rank, though he was still on active duty at the time of print. But why should people in the Army or anyone for that matter be negative on cane use? World War 2 provided dazzling scientific breakthroughs. Sonar and radar were perfected. The jet engine was invented and atomic power introduced. In comparison to these great scientific strides, and those that have subsequently followed, the Long Cane or guide dog might seem primitive. Also, there is the desire to make the blind individual undetectable to the general public while traveling. When considered from this standpoint, independent travel is no longer the issue. Facial Perception, the magic sixth sense, seemed to be the main competition to Long Cane travel. The idea of something natural, internal, replacing sight is very appealing. Levy, Pearson and Hoover, though the last was somewhat skeptical, mention it. Today we know it is based on hearing. Ironically, in an obscure article titled "Can Orientation Be Taught Blind Students?", published in the March 1945 edition of Outlook for The Blind, Toger Lien comes to that conclusion. After experiment he states: "From this I concluded that ability to detect obstacles was entered in the ear that the facial sensations were only secondary effect." Perhaps the inertia to this idea is similar to the inertia facing Long Cane use at the time." Why did Orientation work at Valley Forge? The had the right clients, people who had once been independent and wanted to be independent again. They had the right instructors, the Army had taken a new generation willing to break from tradition. They had the right cane, the six to eight ounce Long Cane was vital. They had the right method. Levy, Robinson and St. Dunstan's had greatly influenced Hoover, but his idea of projecting the cane to the side of the following step was purely his own. And finally, they had Richard Hoover. Bledsoe offers this assessment: "Other hospitals had somewhat similar resources, but did not have Hoover. He found a way not only to get the right men together to teach soldiers, but knew how to handle both patients and how get the best out of them." (Editor's Note: A bibliography of the materials Bob Kozel used to research this series is available upon request.) REFERENCES: Bledsoe, C.W. (1969). From valley forge to hines: truth old enough to tell. American Association of Workers for the Blind, Annual. Washington, D.C. 97-137. Bledsoe, C.W. (1983) Originators of orientation and mobility training. In Foundations of Orientation and Mobility, chapter 18. Grear, J.N. (1944). Rehabilitation of the war-blinded soldiers, Outlook for the Blind, 38, 121-124. Grear, J.N. (1946). Rehabilitation of the blinded soldier, Outlook for the Blind, 71, 271-278. Hoover, R.E. (1946). Foot travel at valley forge. 38th Stated Meeting of the American Association of Instructors of the Blind, 138-143. Hoover, R.E. (1946). Foot travel at valley forge, Outlook for the Blind, 40, 246-251. Hoover, R.E. (1947). Orientation and travel technique for the blind. Proceedings of the American Association of Workers for the Blind, 27-32. Hoover, R.E. (1968). The valley forge story. Blindness 1968, American Association for Workers for the Blind Annual, 55-65. Lawson, A. (1922). War blindness at St. Dunstan's, London: Frowde, Hodder and Stoughton. Lein, T. (1945). Can orientation be taught blind students? Outlook for the Blind, 39, 64-67. Levy, W.H. (1872). Blindness and the blind. London: Chapman and Hall. Pearson, A. (1921). The conquest of blindness. London: Hodder and Stoughton. Robinson, E.F.B. (1896). The true sphere of the blind. Toronto: Briggs. Williams, R.C. (1972). Orientation and mobility, background discourse. In R. Hardy & J Cull (Eds.), Social and rehabilitation services for the blind, chapt. 13. Springfield: Thomas. Wilson, J. (1835). Biography of the blind. Birmingham: Showell. (Editor's Note: The "History of O&M" is a six-part series which appeared in the BVA Bulletin throughout 1997. Thanks go out to Bob Kozel, the VIST Coordinator in San Diego, for researching and writing this material.) Robert Leslie Newman Email- newmanrl at cox.net THOUGHT PROVOKER Website- Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info -----Original Message----- From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kasondra Payne Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:46 AM To: stylist at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane I believe that book was written by Tom Bickford. M y husband and I love that book, and we try to share that with everyone including our children's travel instructors. By the way, we have been thinking about writing a children's book from the point of view of a cane. Sighted kids hear and read about Braille in school, but a lot of them are mystified by the cane and what it is used for. What do you guys think? Kasondra Payne -----Original Message----- From: Angela fowler Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:21 PM To: stylist at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane That book was written by Eric Woods and a few other travel instructors from Louisiana and Minnesota. -----Original Message----- From: stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:stylist-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of LoriStay at aol.com Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 3:05 PM To: stylist at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [stylist] history of the cane Don't know if it will help, but get hold of "The Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane," a book that should be available through NFB. It was one of the Kernel books, I think. If it does not have the history in it, then the writer most certainly will. Lori In a message dated 12/1/08 1:16:23 AM, n6yr at sunflower.com writes: > dear Robert, and listers, > so far, I'm not finding such a book on the history of the cane. and, > what is on the web is surprisingly shallow. on a dozen or more sites > is identical, or nearly identical, text. > > find nothing at nls. > jc > > Jim Canaday M.A. > Lawrence, KS > > ************** Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity& ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) _______________________________________________ stylist mailing list stylist at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com _______________________________________________ stylist mailing list stylist at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/kassyp36%40msn.com _______________________________________________ stylist mailing list stylist at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/newmanrl%40cox.net _______________________________________________ stylist mailing list stylist at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for stylist: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlin k.net _______________________________________________ Nfb-history mailing list Nfb-history at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-history_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nfb-history: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-history_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%4 0gmail.com From agrima at nbp.org Thu Dec 4 01:59:39 2008 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:59:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NBP-Announce: Anna Dresner's 'It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word' Message-ID: It's Not on the Keyboard: Typing Special Characters and Foreign Languages in Word By Anna Dresner In braille, PortaBook, or ASCII Text, $5 Accents, the copyright symbol, the yen sign, diacritical marks, alphabets such as Cyrillic-if you use a screen reader or braille display and need to type characters that aren't on the standard keyboard, this booklet will help! This book covers the two scenarios in which you might want to type such characters: One, if you need to type things like the copyright symbol, the yen sign, or an e with an acute accent but are working primarily in English; and two, if you want to type in a language that uses many symbols that aren't on the standard keyboard or are in a completely different alphabet, and you want to have them all readily available on the keyboard. Author Anna Dresner also covers how to work in a foreign language, and offers helpful tips such as controlling the AutoCorrect feature and making shortcut keys for symbols. Check out the table of contents: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/SPECIAL.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 20. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . _______________________________________________ Nbp mailing list Nbp at nbp.org PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Dec 4 02:12:49 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:12:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Skill Training and Reinforcement for High School Students References: <4383d01d0811260341jfa8be3axf966ff60c06c97a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010b01c955b5$cebe9d90$0201a8c0@Serene> And, guys, don't chase the girls, either! A blind acquaintance of mine from college (not on this list) did that and got into a heap of trouble! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Skill Training and Reinforcement for High School Students > Let me answer the questions one by one: > 1. I received lots of Braille training when I was just a girl of about > five years old, but didn't receive too much homemaking skills because > I didn't get the chance or the teacher had a heavy caseload. The > teacher worked within the school district. We tried getting an > extended school year for me so I could get homemaking skills and all. > I even tried the DAytona rehab center's homemaking classes, but they > simply weren't enough. But part of it was my confidence level, which > was very low. So after working now with the Lighthouse of the Big > Bend in Tally, I think my confidence level is getting higher in that > area, but I can't really reinforce it because I'm on a meal plan. > 2. One thing I would highly recommend for students to reinforce their > skills is to ask their parents if they can help in the kitchen. My > friend Carlos says that sometimes parents won't let their blind > children near the kitchen. My mom? She's cool with it. She'll have > me snapping beans every Thanksgiving and she'll even let me boil eggs! > 3. I participated in band and chorus, but I don't think it was enough > to develop my social skills. One thing I would recommend is to really > start learning those social skills at a young age, and there's > something else that I'd recommend as well: girls, don't chase the > guys. I had a huge problem with that, and still do. I've had TWO > GUYS come up to me and complain about the way I act, and I think > they're right, sadly. > Beth > P.S. Happy Thanksgiving. > > On 11/25/08, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> A while ago, I started a discussion on the list about skills that are >> important for high school students to master before transitioning into >> college, work, and adult life in general. Since then I have been asked >> to help write a page for the new NABS Web site describing these skill >> goals as well as resources for high school students to use to sharpen >> their skills and confidence in preparation for transitioning after >> graduation. Of course, we will provide information about the summer >> youth programs at each of the three NFB training centers. But for >> those high schoolers who can't get to a training center or who want >> additional support during the year, I need your input about other >> practical ways that these students can work on building their skills >> while still in school. A few more specific questions for you guys: >> >> 1. Did any of you receive Braille, travel, home management, etc. >> training from someone in your local area outside of your school >> district? If so, who was it and how did you find this teacher? >> >> 2. What are some suggestions for things students can do every day to >> reinforce their skills in Braille, computers, travel, and home >> management after initially learning them? (For example, a Braille tip >> would be to try to read Braille books for pleasure as much as >> possible). >> >> 3. What kinds of extracurricular activities, camps, etc. did you guys >> participate in that you feel contributed to your skill development? >> >> Please tell us about your experiences--I'm hoping to include as many >> ideas from the list as possible in this Web page. >> >> Thanks everyone for your contributions. You are helping to mentor and >> support the next generation of blind youth! >> >> Happy Thanksgiving! >> >> Arielle Silverman >> First Vice-President, National Association of Blind Students >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From JFreeh at nfb.org Thu Dec 4 02:30:47 2008 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:30:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?NFB=92s_Target_Lawsuit_Settlement_May_Mea?= =?iso-8859-1?q?n_Money__for_You_=96_Check_out_www=2Enfbtargetlawsuit=2Eco?= =?iso-8859-1?q?m__now!?= Message-ID: NFB’s Target Lawsuit Settlement May Mean Money for You – Check out www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com now! Are you legally blind? Have you tried to access the goods or services on Target.com using screen-reader software while you were in the State of California at any time between February 7, 2003 and December 9, 2008? Did you have trouble using that Web site? If so, you are probably eligible to receive up to $7,000.00 from Target under terms of the settlement between that company and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB). However, you have to apply, and time is rapidly running out. To be eligible, you must fill out and submit a claim form by no later than January 8, 2009. There are two ways to get the claim form. The easiest way is to go to www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com. You will find the claim form, instructions, and other information. You may also request a claim form from: NFB v. Target Claims Administrator, RG2 Claims Administration LLC, P.O. Box 59479, Philadelphia, PA 19102-9479 (866-742-4955). There is still time for you to submit your claim. The form may be submitted online by January 8, 2009, or mailed to the address above, postmarked by that date. You do not have to be an NFB member to qualify. Jessica A. Freeh Public Relations Assistant NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2348 E-mail: jfreeh at nfb.org From dandrews at visi.com Thu Dec 4 02:35:59 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:35:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Announce: JAWSWiki Message-ID: >From: "E.J. Zufelt" >To: "NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List" >Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:07:37 -0400 >Subject: [nfbcs] Announce: JAWSWiki >Good morning, > >In combination with The JAWS Script Repository (still needing >volunteers), I have started JAWSWiki. > >You can check out JAWSWiki at http://wiki.jawsscripts.com . > >There is only a main page at the moment but over the next few days I >will be doing my best to bring some structure to the site. > >Everyone is welcome to visit and contribute to the wiki, which I >believe will be an amazing resource for JAWS users, trainers, and >scripters alike. > >Thanks, >Everett From golfereric at verizon.net Thu Dec 4 02:40:28 2008 From: golfereric at verizon.net (golfereric at verizon.net) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:40:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem Message-ID: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Hello Everybody For the spring semester i know what I will need to purchase for books. I have access to the title, author, and edition through website. The one piece of information I don't have is the ISBN number. So I emailed the bookstore and said they don't give out the ISBN number. So then I called the bookstore and again they said due to a new company policy they are unable to provide me with the ISBN numbers. Has anyone encountered this problem? Does anyone have suggestions as well? Thanks, Eric Gaudes. From liamskitten at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 02:55:36 2008 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Linda Stover) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:55:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?NFB=92s_Target_Lawsuit_Settlement_May_M?= =?windows-1252?q?ean_Money_for_You_=96_Check_out_www=2Enfbtargetla?= =?windows-1252?q?wsuit=2Ecom_now!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7949e5e20812031855h2598872k3962189e88b896fc@mail.gmail.com> Jessica, This press release seems to imply that the claims of anyone accessing the site by December 9th of this year will be considered. Should the ending date not be December 9th of 07, or are the claims retroactive? On 12/3/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: > > NFB's Target Lawsuit Settlement May Mean Money > for You – Check out > www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com now! > > > Are you legally blind? Have you tried to access > the goods or services on Target.com using > screen-reader software while you were in the > State of California at any time between February > 7, 2003 and December 9, 2008? Did you have > trouble using that Web site? If so, you are > probably eligible to receive up to $7,000.00 from > Target under terms of the settlement between that > company and the National Federation of the Blind > (NFB). However, you have to apply, and time is > rapidly running out. To be eligible, you must > fill out and submit a claim form by no later than January 8, 2009. > > > > There are two ways to get the claim form. The > easiest way is to go to > www.nfbtargetlawsuit.com. > You will find the claim form, instructions, and > other information. You may also request a claim > form from: NFB v. Target Claims Administrator, > RG2 Claims Administration LLC, P.O. Box 59479, > Philadelphia, PA 19102-9479 (866-742-4955). > > > > There is still time for you to submit your > claim. The form may be submitted online by > January 8, 2009, or mailed to the address above, postmarked by that date. > > > > You do not have to be an NFB member to qualify. > > > Jessica A. Freeh > Public Relations Assistant > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > 1800 Johnson Street > Baltimore, Maryland 21230 > Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2348 > E-mail: jfreeh at nfb.org > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 4 05:35:29 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 00:35:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem In-Reply-To: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> References: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Message-ID: Hi, If you try searching for the book on a library database sometimes they'll give the ISBN. Or if you try to Google the book title sometimes you can get it that way. Good luck, Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of golfereric at verizon.net Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:40 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem Hello Everybody For the spring semester i know what I will need to purchase for books. I have access to the title, author, and edition through website. The one piece of information I don't have is the ISBN number. So I emailed the bookstore and said they don't give out the ISBN number. So then I called the bookstore and again they said due to a new company policy they are unable to provide me with the ISBN numbers. Has anyone encountered this problem? Does anyone have suggestions as well? Thanks, Eric Gaudes. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Dec 4 06:49:49 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:49:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services References: Message-ID: Hi Valerie, Sorry to hear this; freshman year is a learning experience. When at George mason university, I did what you did. I had the dss write a letter of accomodation and the professors signed it. Sounds like a familar procedure. Your professor should have followed through. Can you remind him politely again? Has he been ignoring your requests? If you cannot get it from him other ideas are these. Get notes from a classmate. Also you should have a device like Pacmate to write notes; review your own notes if you have them. Often professors at the freshman intro level follow the textbook so study your book too. Next about the english professor, its confusing. Is she not accepting your papers since they are late or what? I hope you explained your issues that not only did you need assistance formatting but you were sick over the holiday. I'm also surprised you got a low grade just for formatting. Surely there was more. Professors take off some for formatting but not a failing grade for that. The professor can reject late papers. Its been my experience that different professors have different policies. Some will accept it for a lower grade; some with partial credit of some sort and some not at all. So I don't have any advice for the english class; its up to the professor as to whether they will accept papers. Next semester, get a tutor; surely your school has a tutoring service; mine does. Your tutor can make formatting suggestions as well as suggest areas to improve in writing. If you are failing english sounds like you need some tutoring assistance. Also, if you hire a reader for other matterial, they can check formatting too. If you're still reading, this is a bit long, I have some commands to help with formatting. This works if you use jaws and Microsoft word. Do you use that? Some commands tell you about formatting. Insert F: announces the size, type and spacing of writing. Such as 12 point, times new roman, line spacing single Also says if you have normal or bold font. Control B: bold on/off Control I: italic on/off Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valerie Gibson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > Hi, > my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for > feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: > situations before finals is never good. anyway... > > one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: > when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen > btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes > and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those > teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline > for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, > natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. > > "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from > disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. > > I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS > to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. > > Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down > any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. > they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after > filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up > the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell > when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i > finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, > i've still not gotten my outline. > > Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open > professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even > when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the > class to me. > > We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the > semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first > project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second > project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest > grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should > have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to > revise. > > The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the > holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her > if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical > papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. > > If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with > little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines > are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i > ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, > before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and > now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". > > and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to > the information provided above...any thought? > > Val > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3659 (20081202) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 08:07:18 2008 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 02:07:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem References: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Message-ID: <041A9E706A964837B481257D4E72EB90@Dezman> Or you might try asking the professor or calling the publisher. I've gotten this reply from the bookstore too. The only reason I can think of, silly as it is, is from a business standpoint. If they give you that info, then maybe you have what you need to go shop around for the book at a cheaper price. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem > Hi, > If you try searching for the book on a library database sometimes they'll > give the ISBN. Or if you try to Google the book title sometimes you can > get > it that way. > Good luck, > Sarah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of golfereric at verizon.net > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:40 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem > > Hello Everybody > > > For the spring semester i know what I will need to purchase for books. I > have access to the title, author, and edition through website. The one > piece of information I don't have is the ISBN number. So I emailed the > bookstore and said they don't give out the ISBN number. So then I called > the bookstore and again they said due to a new company policy they are > unable to provide me with the ISBN numbers. Has anyone encountered this > problem? Does anyone have suggestions as well? > > > Thanks, > Eric Gaudes. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 14:13:24 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:13:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Part 2- History of long cane and theblind Message-ID: <4937e58a.232d400a.1e1e.7b6f@mx.google.com> History of the cane part two...thanks again Robert! Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfb-history-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jaquiss Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:23 PM To: NFB History Support List Subject: [Nfb-history] Fw: [stylist] Part 2- History of long cane and theblind Hello: Here is the second article on this subject. Not sure why the first article was assembled from six pieces. Regards, Robert Jaquiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Newman" To: "'NFBnet Writer's Division Mailing List'" Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:37 PM Subject: [stylist] Part 2- History of long cane and the blind > Here is Jeff Altman's article which was published in the > "Encyclopedia of Disability 2008." > > > Headword#857 > Jeff Altman > Mar. 08 > > Long Canes > > The use of a cane or a long staff as an adaptive tool for independent > travel > by the BLIND has been documented throughout much of history. > Traditionally, > the "long cane" is so named because it is much longer than the orthopedic > cane; when held vertically, it often reaches to the middle of the chest, > or > to the height between the individual's chin and nose. Long canes are often > referred to as "white canes" but they are not always the same. The latter > refers to any cane that is white in color (sometimes with a red tip) and > has > primarily been viewed as a means of identifying blind persons so that they > might receive assistance and additional consideration from the normally > sighted public. This traditional view of the cane's coloring continues to > be > held by many members of the public, but among blind Americans the long > white > cane increasingly has become a symbol of independence. Changes in long > came > technology, usage, and instruction reflect the changing history of blind > people. > In the colonial period canes were usually made of wood or bamboo, > although even steel was sometimes used in spite of the disadvantages > created > by this material's weight. Often these canes were hand-made by blind > persons > themselves, their family members, or by local artisans. These early canes > usually reflected the individual user's needs, preferences, and > experiences > interacting with the environment. > With the industrial revolution in the 1800s, manufactured canes designed > to > meet the needs of persons with orthopedic disabilities became more common, > and often blind persons adopted these for their own use. The availability > and abundance of well-made canes promoted this choice, but other > motivations > influenced blind people's decisions to use these kinds of canes. The long > staff, in spite of its many advantages as a travel tool, carried the > symbolic and centuries-old STIGMA associated with blind beggars. Less > conspicuous, orthopedic canes enabled some blind people to "pass" as less > disabled. > Historically, the manner in which blind persons used the cane varied from > one individual to another, and most blind travelers developed their own > cane > techniques, although throughout history blind persons commonly have shared > their knowledge with one another. In the late 1800s, some European schools > began developing formalized training for independent travel by the blind, > which in most cases did not specifically address the effective use of the > cane. In the United States, such training was commonly presented by a > member of the teaching staff at residential schools for the blind. Usually > a > blind Physical Fitness instructor introduced use of the cane and basic > travel techniques to students in the weeks just before graduation. > World War II contributed to the rise of standardized methods for using the > cane as a tool for independent travel as many blinded veterans returned > from > the battlefields. Dr. Richard Hoover of the Valley Forge Army Hospital is > credited with first introducing a longer cane specifically designed to > meet > the needs of non-visual travel, and to standardize an effective technique > for the use of the long cane. When held vertically, Hoover's cane reached > roughly to the middle of the individual's chest. The "two point touch," or > "two tap," technique he developed involved arcing the cane evenly across > the > traveler's body, opposite of the person's footsteps, so that the cane > clears > effectively for obstacles ahead, allowing the person time to react. > These conventional canes have changed little in their design since the > 1940s. They have been commonly made of aluminum, although with the > development of lighter weight, more durable materials, fiberglass or > carbon > fiber have become more common. Designed for the purpose of independent > non-visual travel, their length is usually determined by factors such as > the > individual's height, length of stride, and personal preferences for > successfully interacting with the environment. One exception is the > different types of cane tips. Early developers and users recognized that > canes wore down over time from the friction created when it contacted the > ground, or became stuck on surfaces such as concrete. Early cane tips > were > only slightly larger in diameter than the cane shaft and either made of > metal or nylon. Beginning in the 1980s, new types of cane tips were > developed to address problems caused by sidewalk cracks and changes in > techniques. > Other cane styles trace their development to the mid to late 1950s and the > organized blindness movement, specifically from the efforts of the > NATIONAL > FEDERATION OF THE BLIND. These canes emerged from the collective knowledge > of blind persons themselves. These canes tend to be longer and lighter, > with > tapered, hollow, semi flexible, fiberglass shafts; they also have metal > tips > designed to produce superior auditory and tactile information that aids > the > traveler with echolocation and recognizing changes in surfaces. > Since World War II, two significantly different models for instruction in > non-visual independent travel skills have emerged. Clinical settings, most > predominantly associated with Dr. Richard Hoover's pioneering work, > defined > one approach. Clinical proponents identified with the MEDICAL MODEL coined > the term "Orientation and Mobility." This term refers to instruction that > assists the blind person to learn techniques that allow him or her to > remain > oriented, while moving safely through the environment. > Building from the medical and military training models of the 1940s > Conventional Orientation and Mobility instructors tend to view their role > similarly to that of an occupational therapist, seeking ways to reduce the > blind person's level of dependency by enhancing the use of their remaining > vision, and introducing non-visual techniques only where necessary. Under > this model, expertise is considered the intellectual property of the > professional instructors, who are wholly responsible for the safety of > their > students, lessons are presented in a set sequence of steps formulated by > experts in the field, and reinforced with students through repetition and > interaction with the instructor. Because of this instructional approach, > and > the belief that independent travel for the blind is complex, difficult, > and > potentially dangerous, for many years professionals in this model > considered it ineffective and unsafe for blind persons to enter the field. > As a result, the certification process associated with conventional > Orientation and Mobility resisted providing certification to qualified > blind > and visually impaired instructors until well after the enactment of the > 1990 > AMERICANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT. > The other model for instruction in non-visual travel skills resulted from > the organized blindness movement and was based upon the collective > knowledge > of blind persons themselves. Beginning in 1958 Dr. KENNETH JERNIGAN > developed this model, building from the philosophical approach of the > National Federation of the Blind that generated a consumer-driven model of > rehabilitation for the blind. In this model, often referred to as the > "Iowa > model," the instructor's role is to assist the student to develop a highly > functional non-visual understanding of the environment and personal > expertise with non-visual travel. In other words, the body of knowledge, > and the locus of control, are as quickly as possible transferred from the > instructor to the student. This model has since been defined within the > framework of "cognitive learning theory," through the work of Richard > Mettler in 1995 and As a result, this model of Orientation and Mobility is > commonly referred to as "Structured Discovery. This approach now also > offers > a university level program for instructor preparation and certification. > Changes in cane use and the educational practices for cane usage reflect > larger historical progressions in disability history. The history of the > long cane demonstrates the powerful links between adaptive devices, > rehabilitation, medical and social interpretations of blindness, as well > as > ACTIVISM, COMMUNITY, and EMPOWERMENT. > > Jeff Altman > > > See also ASSISTIVE DEVICES AND ADAPTIVE TECHNOLOGY > > Further Reading > Hill, P. and P. Ponder. Orientation And Mobility, A Guide For The > Practitioner. New York, American Foundation For The Blind, 1976. > Jernigan, K. "The Nature Of Independence: An Address Delivered To The > National Convention Of: The National Federation Of The Blind." Dallas, > Texas, July 6, 1993. > Kozel, R. "The History Of O&M." Blinded Veterans Association Bulletin, > 1997 > Mettler R. "The cognitive paradigm for teaching cane travel :Orientation > and > Mobility for Blind People." American Rehabilitation 23, no. 3 > (Autumn-Winter > 1997): 18-23. > Olson, C. On The Use Of The Blindfold. Lincoln NE: Nebraska Department of > Public Institutions, Division of Rehabilitation Services for the Visually > Impaired, 1982. > Morais, M. E., P. Lorensen, R. Allen, E. C.Bell, A. Hill, and E. Woods. > Techniques Used By Blind Cane Travel Instructors, A Practical Approach, > Learning, Teaching, Believing. Baltimore, The National Federation of the > Blind, 1997. > > President NFB Writers' Division > Robert Leslie Newman > Email- newmanrl at cox.net > Division Website- > Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > stylist mailing list > stylist at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > stylist: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlin k.net _______________________________________________ Nfb-history mailing list Nfb-history at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-history_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nfb-history: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-history_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%4 0gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 15:03:08 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:03:08 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem In-Reply-To: <041A9E706A964837B481257D4E72EB90@Dezman> References: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> <041A9E706A964837B481257D4E72EB90@Dezman> Message-ID: <20081204150308.GA5588@yumi.bluecherry.net> Dezman, That's exactly the point: If you don't have the ISBN, you can't be sure the book you're going to try and buy from someone else is the same book, same edition, etc. It makes buying online a risk most students don't want to take. This "company policy" is unethical, in my opinion. It certainly isn't going to be a valid defense when the whole ADA question comes up. That's a little complex because the relationship between most university bookstores and the universities themselves is not a direct one, but that's a solvable problem. Joseph On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:07:18AM -0600, Dezman Jackson wrote: > Or you might try asking the professor or calling the publisher. I've > gotten this reply from the bookstore too. The only reason I can think of, > silly as it is, is from a business standpoint. If they give you that > info, then maybe you have what you need to go shop around for the book at > a cheaper price. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:35 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem > > >> Hi, >> If you try searching for the book on a library database sometimes they'll >> give the ISBN. Or if you try to Google the book title sometimes you can >> get >> it that way. >> Good luck, >> Sarah >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of golfereric at verizon.net >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:40 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem >> >> Hello Everybody >> >> >> For the spring semester i know what I will need to purchase for books. I >> have access to the title, author, and edition through website. The one >> piece of information I don't have is the ISBN number. So I emailed the >> bookstore and said they don't give out the ISBN number. So then I called >> the bookstore and again they said due to a new company policy they are >> unable to provide me with the ISBN numbers. Has anyone encountered this >> problem? Does anyone have suggestions as well? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Eric Gaudes. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From minesm at me.com Thu Dec 4 15:29:16 2008 From: minesm at me.com (Maurice Mines) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 08:29:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem In-Reply-To: <041A9E706A964837B481257D4E72EB90@Dezman> References: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> <041A9E706A964837B481257D4E72EB90@Dezman> Message-ID: You might try and ask your Student Disabled Services to help you if it is a college bookstore. They can explain to them that you need it for a disability/academic purpose. All the other suggestions would work just fine. There might be someone at your bookstore, such as the manager, that handles disability concerns or works with rehab in some cases. You're not asking them to provide your counselor with information just to provide you with the proper information. Does your college post book information online? Maurice On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:07 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > Or you might try asking the professor or calling the publisher. > I've gotten this reply from the bookstore too. The only reason I can > think of, silly as it is, is from a business standpoint. If they > give you that info, then maybe you have what you need to go shop > around for the book at a cheaper price. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:35 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem > > >> Hi, >> If you try searching for the book on a library database sometimes >> they'll >> give the ISBN. Or if you try to Google the book title sometimes you >> can get >> it that way. >> Good luck, >> Sarah >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf >> Of golfereric at verizon.net >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:40 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem >> >> Hello Everybody >> >> >> For the spring semester i know what I will need to purchase for >> books. I >> have access to the title, author, and edition through website. The >> one >> piece of information I don't have is the ISBN number. So I emailed >> the >> bookstore and said they don't give out the ISBN number. So then I >> called >> the bookstore and again they said due to a new company policy they >> are >> unable to provide me with the ISBN numbers. Has anyone encountered >> this >> problem? Does anyone have suggestions as well? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Eric Gaudes. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm > %40me.com From corbbo at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 20:46:28 2008 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:46:28 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem In-Reply-To: References: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> <041A9E706A964837B481257D4E72EB90@Dezman> Message-ID: A tactic that I've found helpful is to go into the store with a friend. At GW, the ISBN numbers are printed on stickers with the class title, instructor name, etc. right below the book. My friend then reads the numbers out to me, I write them down, and hunt for the books online. If a friend isn't available, I find an associate and explain the situation to them this way: "Now, if I were sighted, I could come in here with a piece of paper and write down these numbers. But since I can't see, can you please read them to me?" If the associate says no, usually the manager understands my concern. Best of luck, Corbb ----- Corbb O'Connor studying at the National University of Ireland, Galway On Dec 4, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Maurice Mines wrote: You might try and ask your Student Disabled Services to help you if it is a college bookstore. They can explain to them that you need it for a disability/academic purpose. All the other suggestions would work just fine. There might be someone at your bookstore, such as the manager, that handles disability concerns or works with rehab in some cases. You're not asking them to provide your counselor with information just to provide you with the proper information. Does your college post book information online? Maurice On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:07 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > Or you might try asking the professor or calling the publisher. > I've gotten this reply from the bookstore too. The only reason I can > think of, silly as it is, is from a business standpoint. If they > give you that info, then maybe you have what you need to go shop > around for the book at a cheaper price. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:35 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem > > >> Hi, >> If you try searching for the book on a library database sometimes >> they'll >> give the ISBN. Or if you try to Google the book title sometimes you >> can get >> it that way. >> Good luck, >> Sarah >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On Behalf >> Of golfereric at verizon.net >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:40 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem >> >> Hello Everybody >> >> >> For the spring semester i know what I will need to purchase for >> books. I >> have access to the title, author, and edition through website. The >> one >> piece of information I don't have is the ISBN number. So I emailed >> the >> bookstore and said they don't give out the ISBN number. So then I >> called >> the bookstore and again they said due to a new company policy they >> are >> unable to provide me with the ISBN numbers. Has anyone encountered >> this >> problem? Does anyone have suggestions as well? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Eric Gaudes. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm > %40me.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Fri Dec 5 00:54:51 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups References: <03b301c95355$6699f0a0$33cdd1e0$@com> Message-ID: <013301c95674$14da3690$0201a8c0@Serene> With respect, I disagree. I think putting your hand on a sighted person's shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger. Also, some sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and grab your arm without worning you! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karrie Kinstetter" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places that had a > setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in front of > me. > This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency so if I > put > my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and are > perfectly > fine with it. > Mind you, those are the blind people. > If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to move up. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Sarah Jevnikar > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups > > Hi All, > I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we hadn't > yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if it's > your > turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines that > converge > so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would be to ask the > people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in > unfamiliar > settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other thoughts? > Thank you, > Sarah > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Fri Dec 5 01:05:11 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:05:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services References: <287CCD43F5C74212898F8D7D89B19ACF@rhoads> Message-ID: <015801c95675$865acdb0$0201a8c0@Serene> I don't exactly agree with Jamie about the prof.'s not giving extra time. First, it can be hard to find readers to proofread papers for formatting. Second, whether you're blind or sighted, you can ask for an extention in college, maybe, even easier than in high school. You're being sick has nothing to do with blindness and, because of the barrier of needing someone to proofread the paper, you deserve the extra time. It's not like you were asking for a month to finish the paper! You had it done the day you said you would. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Rhoads" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > Hey Valorie > First thing, wellcome to the list, and glad you have come seaking help. > Now to your issues. As far as the DSS office not getting the papers to > you on time. What you probably should have done and should do next time > is make sure to call them every couple days to see if the paper is ready. > I noticed you said that they usually call you when something is ready. > That is good, but keep in mind they probably have many other students to > keep track of, and it isn't their responsibility to let you know when > something is ready to be picked up even if they say they will. You need > to remember you are not in high school anymore, and you need to take these > kinds of issues into your own hands. This will probably impress your DSS > office as well if you put an active effort into getting your materials no > matter what they may be. As for not getting your outline, keep on your > professor. If need be, get someone from your DSS office to contact > him/her. Just remember that old saying *the squeeky wheel gets the > greace* It is hard sometimes to do these types of things, but while I was > in school, it was one of the things I needed to learn in order to get > things accomplished in an orderly fashion and when I wanted to. > Secondly about your english professor, this is just one of those > things we as blind people need to accept and honestly we shouldn't be mad > about it. Yes, we have other opsticals to overcome and yes it seems very > unfair, but in the end we want to be treated just like any other student > would, so we need to accept and understand why sometimes professors won't > give us that extra time or help. We can't go around saying we want to be > equally treated, but then want extra time on something such as when we are > sick. Now, if she were giving her sighted students extra time if they were > sick, that's a different issue. You need to step back and see this as the > professor is probably only trying to treat you as the same as she does her > sighted students. > One last thing, I don't see why you have a problem with using DSS. I > used them all the way through school and it made things much easier. I > got my books in formats that I needed, a letter to give to all my > professors explaining my disability and the accommodations i would need, > and many other things that helped school go a lot more smoothe. We want > to be independent and that is fine, but if we need the help from the DSS > office that is also fine because that is what they are there for. > I hope this helps. Please don't take this as i'm being mean. These are > things that I either have had said to me at one point, or things I truly > believe. It isn't anything against you personally. > > Jamie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Valerie Gibson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > > >> Hi, >> my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for >> feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: >> situations before finals is never good. anyway... >> >> one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: >> when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen >> btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes >> and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those >> teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline >> for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, >> natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. >> >> "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from >> disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. >> >> I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS >> to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. >> >> Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down >> any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. >> they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after >> filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up >> the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell >> when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i >> finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, >> i've still not gotten my outline. >> >> Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open >> professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even >> when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the >> class to me. >> >> We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the >> semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first >> project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second >> project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest >> grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should >> have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to >> revise. >> >> The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the >> holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her >> if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical >> papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. >> >> If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with >> little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines >> are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i >> ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, >> before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and >> now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". >> >> and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to >> the information provided above...any thought? >> >> Val >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads284%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From jrhoads284 at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 01:07:32 2008 From: jrhoads284 at gmail.com (Jamie Rhoads) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:07:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services References: <287CCD43F5C74212898F8D7D89B19ACF@rhoads> <015801c95675$865acdb0$0201a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <8E35B32D161B4D2A981166D3351900DF@rhoads> all I was saying is that if she did give sighted students that, then that's fine, but if not, then we can't expect extra time. But yes, you are right, you can ask for extra time. i was more leaning toard the thought that we can't expect to have other privilages that sighted students don't have. Now if they do, then that's totally cool. And yes you are right being sick has nothing to do with being blind. Jamie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >I don't exactly agree with Jamie about the prof.'s not giving extra time. >First, it can be hard to find readers to proofread papers for formatting. >Second, whether you're blind or sighted, you can ask for an extention in >college, maybe, even easier than in high school. You're being sick has >nothing to do with blindness and, because of the barrier of needing someone >to proofread the paper, you deserve the extra time. It's not like you were >asking for a month to finish the paper! You had it done the day you said >you would. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jamie Rhoads" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:42 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > > >> Hey Valorie >> First thing, wellcome to the list, and glad you have come seaking help. >> Now to your issues. As far as the DSS office not getting the papers to >> you on time. What you probably should have done and should do next time >> is make sure to call them every couple days to see if the paper is ready. >> I noticed you said that they usually call you when something is ready. >> That is good, but keep in mind they probably have many other students to >> keep track of, and it isn't their responsibility to let you know when >> something is ready to be picked up even if they say they will. You need >> to remember you are not in high school anymore, and you need to take >> these kinds of issues into your own hands. This will probably impress >> your DSS office as well if you put an active effort into getting your >> materials no matter what they may be. As for not getting your outline, >> keep on your professor. If need be, get someone from your DSS office to >> contact him/her. Just remember that old saying *the squeeky wheel gets >> the greace* It is hard sometimes to do these types of things, but while >> I was in school, it was one of the things I needed to learn in order to >> get things accomplished in an orderly fashion and when I wanted to. >> Secondly about your english professor, this is just one of those >> things we as blind people need to accept and honestly we shouldn't be mad >> about it. Yes, we have other opsticals to overcome and yes it seems very >> unfair, but in the end we want to be treated just like any other student >> would, so we need to accept and understand why sometimes professors won't >> give us that extra time or help. We can't go around saying we want to be >> equally treated, but then want extra time on something such as when we >> are sick. Now, if she were giving her sighted students extra time if they >> were sick, that's a different issue. You need to step back and see this >> as the professor is probably only trying to treat you as the same as she >> does her sighted students. >> One last thing, I don't see why you have a problem with using DSS. I >> used them all the way through school and it made things much easier. I >> got my books in formats that I needed, a letter to give to all my >> professors explaining my disability and the accommodations i would need, >> and many other things that helped school go a lot more smoothe. We want >> to be independent and that is fine, but if we need the help from the DSS >> office that is also fine because that is what they are there for. >> I hope this helps. Please don't take this as i'm being mean. These are >> things that I either have had said to me at one point, or things I truly >> believe. It isn't anything against you personally. >> >> Jamie >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Valerie Gibson" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >> >> >>> Hi, >>> my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for >>> feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: >>> situations before finals is never good. anyway... >>> >>> one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: >>> when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen >>> btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes >>> and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those >>> teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline >>> for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, >>> natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. >>> >>> "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from >>> disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. >>> >>> I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS >>> to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. >>> >>> Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down >>> any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. >>> they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after >>> filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up >>> the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell >>> when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i >>> finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, >>> i've still not gotten my outline. >>> >>> Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open >>> professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even >>> when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the >>> class to me. >>> >>> We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the >>> semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first >>> project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second >>> project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest >>> grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should >>> have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to >>> revise. >>> >>> The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the >>> holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her >>> if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical >>> papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. >>> >>> If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with >>> little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines >>> are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i >>> ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, >>> before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and >>> now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". >>> >>> and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to >>> the information provided above...any thought? >>> >>> Val >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads284%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads284%40gmail.com From startrekcafe at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 01:12:12 2008 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:12:12 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] msn messenger Message-ID: Hi. a newbie and got msn messenger. how, do i add a contact? and also, tried to send my sister a sms, but could not seem to do that, as i had a contact already, and would not let me change to a new contact. can any one help? cheers Marvin. ps: also any other tips for how to use msn messenger with jaws 10 would be fine. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Fri Dec 5 01:27:11 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 17:27:11 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups Message-ID: <20081205012659.LGQO2290.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel of the person in front of you. Best, Hannah > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Serena" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >With respect, I disagree. I think putting your hand on a sighted person's >shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger. Also, some >sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and grab your >arm without worning you! >Serena >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Karrie Kinstetter" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups >> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places that had a >> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in front of >> me. >> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency so if I >> put >> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and are >> perfectly >> fine with it. >> Mind you, those are the blind people. >> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to move up. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Sarah Jevnikar >> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups >> Hi All, >> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we hadn't >> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if it's >> your >> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines that >> converge >> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would be to ask the >> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in >> unfamiliar >> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other thoughts? >> Thank you, >> Sarah >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf reak69%40gm >> ail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc co%40verizon.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From KZakhnini at nfb.org Fri Dec 5 01:38:00 2008 From: KZakhnini at nfb.org (Zakhnini, Karen) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:38:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Youth Slam Message-ID: The National Federation of the Blind Youth Slam A 2009 STEM Leadership Academy Observe! Discover! Evolve! Launch rockets, perform astronomy, examine new technology, learn about engineering, solve crimes like on CSI, design solutions for the environment, meet new friends from all over the United States, play goal ball, watch movies, dance, make podcasts, meet blind role models, and experience many other adventures at the NFB Youth Slam! From July 26-August 1, 2009, two hundred blind and low vision high school students will stay at the University of Maryland, College Park, to be mentored by blind role models during fun and challenging activities meant to build confidence, expand leadership and advocacy skills, and increase science literacy. Participants will also attend various social events as well as workshops on topics such as leadership, career preparation, and advocacy. The NFB Youth Slam will culminate in an inspiring rally in Washington DC! Those interested in participating as students or mentors should complete an application by March 1, 2009. After an initial screening process, eligible students will be accepted into the program through random selection. Students and mentors need not have a strong interest in science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM) in order to participate, enjoy, and benefit from this academy. If you are interested in being a student or mentor participant or if you'd like to learn more about the NFB Youth Slam visit http://www.blindscience.org/ncbys/youth_slam.asp. Send questions about the NFB Youth Slam to youthslam at nfb.org. Karen C. Zakhnini Education Project Manager Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND Phone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2293 Fax: (410) 659-5129 Imagine a Future Full of Opportunity... From hope.paulos at maine.edu Fri Dec 5 01:49:04 2008 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:49:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services Message-ID: <20081205014623.ZEPA25475.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Serena. I also agree with you. On a number of occations I've had to ask for extensions and in all cases have received them. One time it had to do with the health of my guide dog and I needed to concentrate on her at the time. Another time it was because my computer stopped working. Other times it's because I didn't have particular material needed (from disability services office) and the professor actually got it for me. She read it aloud for me because it was Spanish and none of the disability services staff spoke it. Professors can be very devoted to their students if they want to be. This is what makes a good teacher or professor. You need to really care about your students and what you teach. Another thing professors need to understand is that life intrudes. Yes, we're in school to learn, but life intrudes. Things happen that prevents us from producing things at certain times, like Sickness, family emmergencies, etc. A professort understands this is a good professor. A professor that doesn't is obviously jgoing through the motionsof teaching and cares more about the actual performance and production of the student than how much the student learns. Just my opinion. Hope and Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Serena" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:05:11 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >I don't exactly agree with Jamie about the prof.'s not giving extra time. >First, it can be hard to find readers to proofread papers for formatting. >Second, whether you're blind or sighted, you can ask for an extention in >college, maybe, even easier than in high school. You're being sick has >nothing to do with blindness and, because of the barrier of needing someone >to proofread the paper, you deserve the extra time. It's not like you were >asking for a month to finish the paper! You had it done the day you said >you would. >Serena >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jamie Rhoads" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:42 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >> Hey Valorie >> First thing, wellcome to the list, and glad you have come seaking help. >> Now to your issues. As far as the DSS office not getting the papers to >> you on time. What you probably should have done and should do next time >> is make sure to call them every couple days to see if the paper is ready. >> I noticed you said that they usually call you when something is ready. >> That is good, but keep in mind they probably have many other students to >> keep track of, and it isn't their responsibility to let you know when >> something is ready to be picked up even if they say they will. You need >> to remember you are not in high school anymore, and you need to take these >> kinds of issues into your own hands. This will probably impress your DSS >> office as well if you put an active effort into getting your materials no >> matter what they may be. As for not getting your outline, keep on your >> professor. If need be, get someone from your DSS office to contact >> him/her. Just remember that old saying *the squeeky wheel gets the >> greace* It is hard sometimes to do these types of things, but while I was >> in school, it was one of the things I needed to learn in order to get >> things accomplished in an orderly fashion and when I wanted to. >> Secondly about your english professor, this is just one of those >> things we as blind people need to accept and honestly we shouldn't be mad >> about it. Yes, we have other opsticals to overcome and yes it seems very >> unfair, but in the end we want to be treated just like any other student >> would, so we need to accept and understand why sometimes professors won't >> give us that extra time or help. We can't go around saying we want to be >> equally treated, but then want extra time on something such as when we are >> sick. Now, if she were giving her sighted students extra time if they were >> sick, that's a different issue. You need to step back and see this as the >> professor is probably only trying to treat you as the same as she does her >> sighted students. >> One last thing, I don't see why you have a problem with using DSS. I >> used them all the way through school and it made things much easier. I >> got my books in formats that I needed, a letter to give to all my >> professors explaining my disability and the accommodations i would need, >> and many other things that helped school go a lot more smoothe. We want >> to be independent and that is fine, but if we need the help from the DSS >> office that is also fine because that is what they are there for. >> I hope this helps. Please don't take this as i'm being mean. These are >> things that I either have had said to me at one point, or things I truly >> believe. It isn't anything against you personally. >> Jamie >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Valerie Gibson" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >>> Hi, >>> my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for >>> feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob know: >>> situations before finals is never good. anyway... >>> one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it is: >>> when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a freshmen >>> btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any notes >>> and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those >>> teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an outline >>> for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, >>> natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this accomidation. >>> "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper from >>> disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. >>> I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to DSS >>> to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so i did. >>> Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to write down >>> any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my professors. >>> they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, after >>> filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to pick up >>> the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my cell >>> when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later that i >>> finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's signature, >>> i've still not gotten my outline. >>> Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open >>> professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with me, even >>> when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she gave the >>> class to me. >>> We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the >>> semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My first >>> project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second >>> project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the lowest >>> grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i should >>> have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i had to >>> revise. >>> The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick over the >>> holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and asked her >>> if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the physical >>> papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. >>> If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with >>> little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my lines >>> are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to campus, i >>> ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was okay, >>> before running to my english teacher's office and turning it in...and >>> now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". >>> and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych due to >>> the information provided above...any thought? >>> Val >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads28 4%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc co%40verizon.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine.edu From blindhistory at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 02:24:56 2008 From: blindhistory at gmail.com (Lora and Myrtle) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:24:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] PacMate reset Message-ID: Where is the cold reset on a qx pacmate. I have plugged my pacmate in and let it charge and now it won't do anything even though I turn it on. -- Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle From startrekcafe at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 02:39:53 2008 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:39:53 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results Message-ID: Hi. just to let people know, passed this subject at my local college in visual basic. cheers Marvin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nadil Sundarapperuma" To: Cc: "Steve Donaldson" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: Test Results Hi Marvin, I am delighted inform you that you have passed both test. There were minor problems your user interfaces but coding was perfect. All the programs works without any run time errors expect one. There was a problem with the database connection (Test 2- Q2) due to the connection string property. Your final grades as follows; Test 1: Pass Test 2: Pass Regards, Nadil Nadil Sundarapperuma Lecturer IT Studies TAFE SA - Adelaide City Campus Tel.: 08 82078365 Email : Nadil.Sundarapperuma at tafesa.edu.au >>> "Marvin Hunkin" 04/12/08 10:21 PM >>> Hi Nadil. got some mail from tafe sa at noarlunga. asking me about it studies and pre enrollment, and sent to my tas address? unless, there are any it online courses, for 2009. why did they send it to me, when they know that i am over 1000 kph away in Devonport, tas? damn computers again, got it wrong? can you answer this one for me? real strange! cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One From blindhistory at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 02:50:59 2008 From: blindhistory at gmail.com (Lora and Myrtle) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:50:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] PacMate reset In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nevermind found it. On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Lora and Myrtle wrote: > Where is the cold reset on a qx pacmate. I have plugged my pacmate in and > let it charge and now it won't do anything even though I turn it on. > > -- > Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle > -- Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Fri Dec 5 06:21:49 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 01:21:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good job! I hear visual basic is hard. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:40 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results Hi. just to let people know, passed this subject at my local college in visual basic. cheers Marvin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nadil Sundarapperuma" To: Cc: "Steve Donaldson" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: Test Results Hi Marvin, I am delighted inform you that you have passed both test. There were minor problems your user interfaces but coding was perfect. All the programs works without any run time errors expect one. There was a problem with the database connection (Test 2- Q2) due to the connection string property. Your final grades as follows; Test 1: Pass Test 2: Pass Regards, Nadil Nadil Sundarapperuma Lecturer IT Studies TAFE SA - Adelaide City Campus Tel.: 08 82078365 Email : Nadil.Sundarapperuma at tafesa.edu.au >>> "Marvin Hunkin" 04/12/08 10:21 PM >>> Hi Nadil. got some mail from tafe sa at noarlunga. asking me about it studies and pre enrollment, and sent to my tas address? unless, there are any it online courses, for 2009. why did they send it to me, when they know that i am over 1000 kph away in Devonport, tas? damn computers again, got it wrong? can you answer this one for me? real strange! cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 07:36:53 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 23:36:53 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem In-Reply-To: References: <2085503862.6580391228358428108.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> <041A9E706A964837B481257D4E72EB90@Dezman> Message-ID: <20081205073653.GE5588@yumi.bluecherry.net> Corbb, They're now covering those ISBN's with a sticker that won't tear off easily at some universities. Joseph On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:46:28PM +0000, Corbb O'Connor wrote: > A tactic that I've found helpful is to go into the store with a friend. > At GW, the ISBN numbers are printed on stickers with the class title, > instructor name, etc. right below the book. My friend then reads the > numbers out to me, I write them down, and hunt for the books online. If a > friend isn't available, I find an associate and explain the situation to > them this way: "Now, if I were sighted, I could come in here with a piece > of paper and write down these numbers. But since I can't see, can you > please read them to me?" If the associate says no, usually the manager > understands my concern. > > Best of luck, > Corbb > > ----- > Corbb O'Connor > studying at the National University of Ireland, Galway > > On Dec 4, 2008, at 3:29 PM, Maurice Mines wrote: > > You might try and ask your Student Disabled Services to help you if it > is a college bookstore. They can explain to them that you need it for a > disability/academic purpose. All the other suggestions would work just > fine. There might be someone at your bookstore, such as the manager, that > handles disability concerns or works with rehab in some cases. You're not > asking them to provide your counselor with information just to provide > you with the proper information. Does your college post book information > online? > > Maurice > > On Dec 4, 2008, at 1:07 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > >> Or you might try asking the professor or calling the publisher. I've >> gotten this reply from the bookstore too. The only reason I can think >> of, silly as it is, is from a business standpoint. If they give you >> that info, then maybe you have what you need to go shop around for the >> book at a cheaper price. >> >> Dezman >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >> >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem >> >> >>> Hi, >>> If you try searching for the book on a library database sometimes >>> they'll >>> give the ISBN. Or if you try to Google the book title sometimes you >>> can get >>> it that way. >>> Good luck, >>> Sarah >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>> On Behalf >>> Of golfereric at verizon.net >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:40 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Bookstore Problem >>> >>> Hello Everybody >>> >>> >>> For the spring semester i know what I will need to purchase for >>> books. I >>> have access to the title, author, and edition through website. The >>> one >>> piece of information I don't have is the ISBN number. So I emailed >>> the >>> bookstore and said they don't give out the ISBN number. So then I >>> called >>> the bookstore and again they said due to a new company policy they >>> are >>> unable to provide me with the ISBN numbers. Has anyone encountered >>> this >>> problem? Does anyone have suggestions as well? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Eric Gaudes. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >>> ronto.ca >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm >> %40me.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From valandkayla at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 14:37:50 2008 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:37:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services In-Reply-To: <20081205014623.ZEPA25475.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> References: <20081205014623.ZEPA25475.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Message-ID: Ashley, thank you for your advice, and I agree with what you said about freshmen year being a learning experience. My english issue was resolved, and I'm not going to fail the class after all. YAY ME! anyway, my psych professor, from what i understand, likes to go by the book when it come to disabilities services, and I've heard some professors are anal about having students go through DSS. However, i did not want to go through DSS at all, and if i had to, i wanted it to be a bare minimum, which is what i told him in the first email that i wrote him. But since the past is the past, and i don't know if i can do anything about it now: (this question goes for anyone), is there a way to get around DSS when your professor says that you have to go through them in order to get acomidations? thank you, and, for the record, i checked my spelling. i was in a hurry when last i wrote that email, so sorry to all the spelling fans. On 12/4/08, Hope Paulos wrote: > Serena. I also agree with you. On a number of occations I've > had to ask for extensions and in all cases have received them. > One time it had to do with the health of my guide dog and I > needed to concentrate on her at the time. Another time it was > because my computer stopped working. Other times it's because I > didn't have particular material needed (from disability services > office) and the professor actually got it for me. She read it > aloud for me because it was Spanish and none of the disability > services staff spoke it. Professors can be very devoted to their > students if they want to be. This is what makes a good teacher > or professor. You need to really care about your students and > what you teach. Another thing professors need to understand is > that life intrudes. Yes, we're in school to learn, but life > intrudes. Things happen that prevents us from producing things > at certain times, like Sickness, family emmergencies, etc. A > professort understands this is a good professor. A professor > that doesn't is obviously jgoing through the motionsof teaching > and cares more about the actual performance and production of > the student than how much the student learns. Just my opinion. > Hope and Beignet > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Serena" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:05:11 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > >>I don't exactly agree with Jamie about the prof.'s not giving > extra time. >>First, it can be hard to find readers to proofread papers for > formatting. >>Second, whether you're blind or sighted, you can ask for an > extention in >>college, maybe, even easier than in high school. You're being > sick has >>nothing to do with blindness and, because of the barrier of > needing someone >>to proofread the paper, you deserve the extra time. It's not > like you were >>asking for a month to finish the paper! You had it done the day > you said >>you would. > >>Serena > > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jamie Rhoads" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:42 PM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > > >>> Hey Valorie >>> First thing, wellcome to the list, and glad you have come > seaking help. >>> Now to your issues. As far as the DSS office not getting the > papers to >>> you on time. What you probably should have done and should do > next time >>> is make sure to call them every couple days to see if the paper > is ready. >>> I noticed you said that they usually call you when something is > ready. >>> That is good, but keep in mind they probably have many other > students to >>> keep track of, and it isn't their responsibility to let you know > when >>> something is ready to be picked up even if they say they will. > You need >>> to remember you are not in high school anymore, and you need to > take these >>> kinds of issues into your own hands. This will probably impress > your DSS >>> office as well if you put an active effort into getting your > materials no >>> matter what they may be. As for not getting your outline, keep > on your >>> professor. If need be, get someone from your DSS office to > contact >>> him/her. Just remember that old saying *the squeeky wheel gets > the >>> greace* It is hard sometimes to do these types of things, but > while I was >>> in school, it was one of the things I needed to learn in order > to get >>> things accomplished in an orderly fashion and when I wanted to. >>> Secondly about your english professor, this is just one of > those >>> things we as blind people need to accept and honestly we > shouldn't be mad >>> about it. Yes, we have other opsticals to overcome and yes it > seems very >>> unfair, but in the end we want to be treated just like any other > student >>> would, so we need to accept and understand why sometimes > professors won't >>> give us that extra time or help. We can't go around saying we > want to be >>> equally treated, but then want extra time on something such as > when we are >>> sick. Now, if she were giving her sighted students extra time > if they were >>> sick, that's a different issue. You need to step back and see > this as the >>> professor is probably only trying to treat you as the same as > she does her >>> sighted students. >>> One last thing, I don't see why you have a problem with > using DSS. I >>> used them all the way through school and it made things much > easier. I >>> got my books in formats that I needed, a letter to give to all > my >>> professors explaining my disability and the accommodations i > would need, >>> and many other things that helped school go a lot more smoothe. > We want >>> to be independent and that is fine, but if we need the help from > the DSS >>> office that is also fine because that is what they are there > for. >>> I hope this helps. Please don't take this as i'm being mean. > These are >>> things that I either have had said to me at one point, or things > I truly >>> believe. It isn't anything against you personally. > >>> Jamie > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Valerie Gibson" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services > > >>>> Hi, >>>> my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for >>>> feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob > know: >>>> situations before finals is never good. anyway... > >>>> one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it > is: >>>> when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a > freshmen >>>> btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any > notes >>>> and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those >>>> teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an > outline >>>> for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, >>>> natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this > accomidation. > >>>> "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper > from >>>> disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. > >>>> I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to > DSS >>>> to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so > i did. > >>>> Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to > write down >>>> any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my > professors. >>>> they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, > after >>>> filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to > pick up >>>> the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my > cell >>>> when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later > that i >>>> finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's > signature, >>>> i've still not gotten my outline. > >>>> Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open >>>> professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with > me, even >>>> when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she > gave the >>>> class to me. > >>>> We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the >>>> semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My > first >>>> project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second >>>> project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the > lowest >>>> grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i > should >>>> have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i > had to >>>> revise. > >>>> The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick > over the >>>> holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and > asked her >>>> if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the > physical >>>> papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. > >>>> If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with >>>> little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my > lines >>>> are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to > campus, i >>>> ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was > okay, >>>> before running to my english teacher's office and turning it > in...and >>>> now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". > >>>> and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych > due to >>>> the information provided above...any thought? > >>>> Val > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads28 > 4%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc > co%40verizon.net > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul > os%40maine.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > From valandkayla at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 14:42:01 2008 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:42:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups In-Reply-To: <20081205012659.LGQO2290.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> References: <20081205012659.LGQO2290.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: Hi all, when i went to the Louisiana center for the blind a long while back, we were taught to put the tip of the cane on the heel of the person in front of us. However when the person is moving around or hovering on the outskirts of the line where it becomes confusing, i just think the best way is to ask where the end of the line is, and when you find the end of the line, as the person when you can ove up. or rather, if they could tell you when it's time to move up. I'm shy too. part of the reason i've not posted to the list much, but college teaches me that you have to take what you need, and do what you've got to do to get things done, even if it's a matter of waiting in line. On 12/4/08, hannah wrote: > I think the best way would be to light put your cane to the heel > of the person in front of you. > Best, > Hannah > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Serena" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:54:51 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > >>With respect, I disagree. I think putting your hand on a sighted > person's >>shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger. Also, > some >>sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and > grab your >>arm without worning you! > >>Serena > > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Karrie Kinstetter" >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > > >>> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places > that had a >>> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in > front of >>> me. >>> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency > so if I >>> put >>> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and > are >>> perfectly >>> fine with it. >>> Mind you, those are the blind people. >>> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to > move up. > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Sarah Jevnikar >>> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups > >>> Hi All, >>> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect > we hadn't >>> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know > if it's >>> your >>> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines > that >>> converge >>> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would be > to ask the >>> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm > in >>> unfamiliar >>> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any > other thoughts? >>> Thank you, >>> Sarah > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesf > reak69%40gm >>> ail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc > co%40verizon.net > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > From valandkayla at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 14:47:01 2008 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 08:47:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] msn messenger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: my first bit of advice would be to play around with your new toy, since that's always the most fun. but to answer your first question: to ad a contact, hit alt+c. that will take you to the contacts file minue. arrow down to add a contact. you'll be in an edit box where you enter the person's email adress. when you do this, check at the end of the email so that you don't have any spaces. and also do this in the beginning. make sure that just the email address is in the edit box. I've never used messenger to send mss messages, but I'd guess you'd tab to the edit box where it asks for the phone number. again, play around with it, or read up in the jaws help topics in the jaws help minu. or you can ask me more questions, if you get lost. hope this helps. On 12/4/08, Marvin Hunkin wrote: > Hi. > a newbie and got msn messenger. > how, do i add a contact? > and also, tried to send my sister a sms, but could not seem to do that, as i > had a contact already, and would not let me change to a new contact. > can any one help? > cheers Marvin. > ps: also any other tips for how to use msn messenger with jaws 10 would be > fine. > E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com > MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com > Skype: startrekcafe > We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! > Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One > E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com > MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com > Skype: startrekcafe > We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! > Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Fri Dec 5 14:48:49 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 06:48:49 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results Message-ID: <20081205144833.CHUA13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> conglads... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Marvin Hunkin" To: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:39:53 +1100 >Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results >Hi. >just to let people know, passed this subject at my local college in visual >basic. >cheers Marvin. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Nadil Sundarapperuma" To: Cc: "Steve Donaldson" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:29 PM >Subject: Test Results >Hi Marvin, >I am delighted inform you that you have passed both test. There were minor >problems your user interfaces but coding was perfect. All the programs works >without any run time errors expect one. There was a problem with the >database connection (Test 2- Q2) due to the connection string property. Your >final grades as follows; >Test 1: Pass >Test 2: Pass >Regards, >Nadil >Nadil Sundarapperuma >Lecturer >IT Studies >TAFE SA - Adelaide City Campus >Tel.: 08 82078365 >Email : Nadil.Sundarapperuma at tafesa.edu.au >>>> "Marvin Hunkin" 04/12/08 10:21 PM >Hi Nadil. >got some mail from tafe sa at noarlunga. >asking me about it studies and pre enrollment, and sent to my tas address? >unless, there are any it online courses, for 2009. >why did they send it to me, when they know that i am over 1000 kph away in >Devonport, tas? >damn computers again, got it wrong? >can you answer this one for me? >real strange! >cheers Marvin. >E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com >MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com >Skype: startrekcafe >We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! >Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One >E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com >MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com >Skype: startrekcafe >We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! >Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One >E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com >MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com >Skype: startrekcafe >We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! >Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 18:01:25 2008 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:01:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] introduction In-Reply-To: <8045A9FB20B545F6B835D23BD4337C0A@consumer281f9d> References: <8045A9FB20B545F6B835D23BD4337C0A@consumer281f9d> Message-ID: <54f02f10812051001x29b61829s3b899ebd304962f4@mail.gmail.com> Hey Chris, Welcome to Nabs. I admit I'm a list lurker and don't post often. I hope you enjoy your stay here on the list and hope to talk with you soon. On 11/28/08, Christopher Kchao wrote: > Hi all, > I figured I'd finally do the formal thing and introduce myself for the sake > of most of you who probably don't know me. I'm completing my third semester > at Hunter College of the City University of New York. Presently, I'm in the > process of taking care of the rather extensive liberal arts requirements of > my education while exploring different career options. I have a great deal > of interest in working in a technical field; there's just something > extremely appealing about being on the cutting edge. In addition, I'm also > continuing to toy with the idea of going to law school to become an > attorney. > As far as vision is concerned, I am totally blind from birth. Location was a > rather large determining factor when deciding on my school of choice. > Staying at home with my parents would be too easy. Staying in suburban New > York at the mercy of anyone with functioning eyes and a car would be too > inconvenient. As a result of this decision, I am proud to say that I > consider myself to be moderately independent and have lived away from home > for a little bit over a year. I do however plan to attend one of the NFB > training centers in the near future. At the very least, doing so will aid in > reinforcing the skills I currently have and boosting my confidence. I feel > that independence is an absolutely vital skill and definitely aids in > increasing marketability in the workforce. > This mailing list, and the "blind students on facebook" group is the extent > of my involvement in the organized blind movement, if I may give it such a > designation. I hope to change that in the near future. Only recently have I > started to see the value of networking with other blind individuals, > especially when faced with challenges that would seem otherwise > unconventional to my sighted peers. This list definitely has a lot to offer > in terms of being an outlet in which people can share ideas, though > networking on a local level would be ideal. > Anyways, this is starting to sound like bits and pieces of a poorly written > college essay, so I think I'll stop. :-) > Just from being a nearly silent member on the list, I've already learned a > lot in the past few months. Keep it coming. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina From maria.kristic at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 18:35:47 2008 From: maria.kristic at gmail.com (Maria Kristic) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:35:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6662F1C7EF9C4495A129E8719CE7131C@maria> Awesome, congrats! I'm taking a VB.NET class myself next semester and am excited about it! Cheers, Maria -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:40 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results Hi. just to let people know, passed this subject at my local college in visual basic. cheers Marvin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nadil Sundarapperuma" To: Cc: "Steve Donaldson" Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:29 PM Subject: Test Results Hi Marvin, I am delighted inform you that you have passed both test. There were minor problems your user interfaces but coding was perfect. All the programs works without any run time errors expect one. There was a problem with the database connection (Test 2- Q2) due to the connection string property. Your final grades as follows; Test 1: Pass Test 2: Pass Regards, Nadil Nadil Sundarapperuma Lecturer IT Studies TAFE SA - Adelaide City Campus Tel.: 08 82078365 Email : Nadil.Sundarapperuma at tafesa.edu.au >>> "Marvin Hunkin" 04/12/08 10:21 PM >>> Hi Nadil. got some mail from tafe sa at noarlunga. asking me about it studies and pre enrollment, and sent to my tas address? unless, there are any it online courses, for 2009. why did they send it to me, when they know that i am over 1000 kph away in Devonport, tas? damn computers again, got it wrong? can you answer this one for me? real strange! cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/maria.kristic%40gmai l.com From jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 18:45:23 2008 From: jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com (Jessica Kostiw) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:45:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Highering Drivers References: <03b301c95355$6699f0a0$33cdd1e0$@com> <013301c95674$14da3690$0201a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <003001c95709$a27d4290$eb53a962@Jessica> Dear List, I am in the process of highering drivers and have a few questions. 1. How much do you pay them? When answering this question, please include where you live, since the cost of living varies. 2. For what types of things do you use them for? Do you have to set up a specific schedule? 3. Most importantly, how do you interview someone for a driving position? What types of questions to you ask? I have placed an add on Craigslist, has anyone else done such a thing? How do you make sure you aren't getting a cereal killer? I am living in a town that has no public transportation, or very little, and cabs are too expensive because everything is spread out. So far my mom has been driving, but this is getting old really really quick. Am I going about this the write way? Any suggestions? Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > With respect, I disagree. I think putting your hand on a sighted person's > shoulder is inappropriate, especially if it's a stranger. Also, some > sighted strangers may interpret this as wanting sighted guide and grab > your arm without worning you! > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karrie Kinstetter" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 8:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Line Ups > > >> Sarah, When I went to the school for the blind and other places that had >> a >> setting like this, I usually just put my hand on the person in front of >> me. >> This also helps a great deal seeing as I have a rocking tendency so if I >> put >> my hand on the person's shoulder, they usually don't mind and are >> perfectly >> fine with it. >> Mind you, those are the blind people. >> If it's the sighted people, they just usually kindly tell me to move up. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Sarah Jevnikar >> Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:30 AM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: [nabs-l] Line Ups >> >> Hi All, >> I was in my university cafeteria today and thought of one aspect we >> hadn't >> yet discussed. How do you guys manage line ups? How do you know if it's >> your >> turn or where the line ends? In my caf there are several lines that >> converge >> so things can get confusing. I know the obvious thing would be to ask the >> people near you, but I find I get shy and tongue-tied when I'm in >> unfamiliar >> settings alone so sometimes that doesn't work so well. Any other >> thoughts? >> Thank you, >> Sarah >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 21:27:13 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:27:13 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services In-Reply-To: References: <20081205014623.ZEPA25475.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <20081205212713.GI5588@yumi.bluecherry.net> Val Pal! The DSO requirement is difficult, but the professors are within their rights to insist that you prove your disability before providing an accommodation. The standard policy is that the university's DSO verifies disability claims and makes a determination of what the university must provide as an accommodation. Professors may provide you with anything they want, but the DSO specifies in that initial letter the kinds of things that, at a minimum, the university must do. Sometimes additional things come up, but the DSO tries to minimize their effort with the boiler plate letter. The mistake I think a lot of people make is to assume that DSOs exist to provide accommodations to students. That's not precisely true--they exist to provide support to professors in ensuring that the university's obligations under the law are met. As a blind person who believes in the principles upon which the Federation is built, your goal would be to be have the same expectations apply to you as are applied to anyone else. Neither higher nor lower are acceptable. The DSO has the goal of ensuring that the expectations are not higher. They don't have to worry about lower--but any truly supportive won't let you slide by with a lower standard. The thing is, if you and the DSO are working for similar goals, you can work together to ensure that the professor has the support they need to hold you to the same standard they hold other students. You figure out together what that standard is, and who needs to do what to make it happen. This changes the dynamic from the same sort of client/provider model you get with voc rehab services to one of partnership in supporting the professors. Some professors have some pretty significant failings, and you seem to have possibly already begun to discover that. Viewing DSOs this way doesn't really change that, but it does limit the effect those failings may have on you as a student because of blindness. Of course, a lot of DSOs need some education as well, but approaching them in this way might just be the start of that education--it'll throw them, I'm sure. I wish you success with the rest of the term--you know I don't believe in luck, and I know you don't need it even if I did. *smile* Joseph On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 08:37:50AM -0600, Valerie Gibson wrote: >Ashley, > >thank you for your advice, and I agree with what you said about >freshmen year being a learning experience. My english issue was >resolved, and I'm not going to fail the class after all. YAY ME! > >anyway, my psych professor, from what i understand, likes to go by the >book when it come to disabilities services, and I've heard some >professors are anal about having students go through DSS. > >However, i did not want to go through DSS at all, and if i had to, i >wanted it to be a bare minimum, which is what i told him in the first >email that i wrote him. > >But since the past is the past, and i don't know if i can do anything >about it now: (this question goes for anyone), is there a way to get >around DSS when your professor says that you have to go through them >in order to get acomidations? > >thank you, and, for the record, i checked my spelling. i was in a >hurry when last i wrote that email, so sorry to all the spelling fans. > >On 12/4/08, Hope Paulos wrote: >> Serena. I also agree with you. On a number of occations I've >> had to ask for extensions and in all cases have received them. >> One time it had to do with the health of my guide dog and I >> needed to concentrate on her at the time. Another time it was >> because my computer stopped working. Other times it's because I >> didn't have particular material needed (from disability services >> office) and the professor actually got it for me. She read it >> aloud for me because it was Spanish and none of the disability >> services staff spoke it. Professors can be very devoted to their >> students if they want to be. This is what makes a good teacher >> or professor. You need to really care about your students and >> what you teach. Another thing professors need to understand is >> that life intrudes. Yes, we're in school to learn, but life >> intrudes. Things happen that prevents us from producing things >> at certain times, like Sickness, family emmergencies, etc. A >> professort understands this is a good professor. A professor >> that doesn't is obviously jgoing through the motionsof teaching >> and cares more about the actual performance and production of >> the student than how much the student learns. Just my opinion. >> Hope and Beignet >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Serena" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Date sent: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:05:11 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >> >>>I don't exactly agree with Jamie about the prof.'s not giving >> extra time. >>>First, it can be hard to find readers to proofread papers for >> formatting. >>>Second, whether you're blind or sighted, you can ask for an >> extention in >>>college, maybe, even easier than in high school. You're being >> sick has >>>nothing to do with blindness and, because of the barrier of >> needing someone >>>to proofread the paper, you deserve the extra time. It's not >> like you were >>>asking for a month to finish the paper! You had it done the day >> you said >>>you would. >> >>>Serena >> >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Jamie Rhoads" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:42 PM >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >> >> >>>> Hey Valorie >>>> First thing, wellcome to the list, and glad you have come >> seaking help. >>>> Now to your issues. As far as the DSS office not getting the >> papers to >>>> you on time. What you probably should have done and should do >> next time >>>> is make sure to call them every couple days to see if the paper >> is ready. >>>> I noticed you said that they usually call you when something is >> ready. >>>> That is good, but keep in mind they probably have many other >> students to >>>> keep track of, and it isn't their responsibility to let you know >> when >>>> something is ready to be picked up even if they say they will. >> You need >>>> to remember you are not in high school anymore, and you need to >> take these >>>> kinds of issues into your own hands. This will probably impress >> your DSS >>>> office as well if you put an active effort into getting your >> materials no >>>> matter what they may be. As for not getting your outline, keep >> on your >>>> professor. If need be, get someone from your DSS office to >> contact >>>> him/her. Just remember that old saying *the squeeky wheel gets >> the >>>> greace* It is hard sometimes to do these types of things, but >> while I was >>>> in school, it was one of the things I needed to learn in order >> to get >>>> things accomplished in an orderly fashion and when I wanted to. >>>> Secondly about your english professor, this is just one of >> those >>>> things we as blind people need to accept and honestly we >> shouldn't be mad >>>> about it. Yes, we have other opsticals to overcome and yes it >> seems very >>>> unfair, but in the end we want to be treated just like any other >> student >>>> would, so we need to accept and understand why sometimes >> professors won't >>>> give us that extra time or help. We can't go around saying we >> want to be >>>> equally treated, but then want extra time on something such as >> when we are >>>> sick. Now, if she were giving her sighted students extra time >> if they were >>>> sick, that's a different issue. You need to step back and see >> this as the >>>> professor is probably only trying to treat you as the same as >> she does her >>>> sighted students. >>>> One last thing, I don't see why you have a problem with >> using DSS. I >>>> used them all the way through school and it made things much >> easier. I >>>> got my books in formats that I needed, a letter to give to all >> my >>>> professors explaining my disability and the accommodations i >> would need, >>>> and many other things that helped school go a lot more smoothe. >> We want >>>> to be independent and that is fine, but if we need the help from >> the DSS >>>> office that is also fine because that is what they are there >> for. >>>> I hope this helps. Please don't take this as i'm being mean. >> These are >>>> things that I either have had said to me at one point, or things >> I truly >>>> believe. It isn't anything against you personally. >> >>>> Jamie >> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Valerie Gibson" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 5:11 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] professors and disability services >> >> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> my name's Valerie. don't really post here much, but looking for >>>>> feeback on two situations i've got going on, which as you prob >> know: >>>>> situations before finals is never good. anyway... >> >>>>> one issue, i probably should have worked out sooner, but here it >> is: >>>>> when first regestering for my first year of psych, yes i'm a >> freshmen >>>>> btw, I emailed my professor and asked hi if he could send me any >> notes >>>>> and things that he shows the clas via email. He's one of those >>>>> teachers who teaches in a large auditorium, and projects an >> outline >>>>> for the class to cpy and fill out based on his lectures. Well, >>>>> natureally i don't see the outline, so i asked this >> accomidation. >> >>>>> "No." was his responce. he said that he needed to see a paper >> from >>>>> disability services (DSS), if he was going to provide that. >> >>>>> I didn't want to fight, and what harm could there be in going to >> DSS >>>>> to get the paper so long as i passsed the class, i thought. so >> i did. >> >>>>> Well, the paper was a letter of accomidation where i had to >> write down >>>>> any accomidations i may need, and take each paper to my >> professors. >>>>> they would sign off on it, and i'd bring it back to DSS. Well, >> after >>>>> filling out the paper DSS told me to ome back in a few days to >> pick up >>>>> the copies to give to my professors. Normally, they'd call my >> cell >>>>> when i needed to come by, and it wasn't until three weeks later >> that i >>>>> finally got the paper, and even after my psych professor's >> signature, >>>>> i've still not gotten my outline. >> >>>>> Second issue: my english professor was probably the most open >>>>> professor i've gotten this year. she was open to working with >> me, even >>>>> when i didn't want to work with DSS, and emailed anything she >> gave the >>>>> class to me. >> >>>>> We have four projects that we have to write by the end of the >>>>> semester, and we can revise as many times as she wants. My >> first >>>>> project got a good grade, but she pulled me aside on the second >>>>> project, and told me that it earned an "unsatisfactory", the >> lowest >>>>> grade, based on the formatting. natureally i understood that i >> should >>>>> have worked on finding someone to check the formatting. So i >> had to >>>>> revise. >> >>>>> The papers were due yesterday, and unfortuneately, i was sick >> over the >>>>> holidays, and wasn't in school. I emailed my professor and >> asked her >>>>> if i could email her the papers that day, and give her the >> physical >>>>> papers the next day, to which she rudely told me that i could. >> >>>>> If anyone knows my household, i don't get that much support with >>>>> little things, like having a sighted person check to see if my >> lines >>>>> are double spaced and things, so the next day, i got back to >> campus, i >>>>> ran by the writing center just to ask them if my formating was >> okay, >>>>> before running to my english teacher's office and turning it >> in...and >>>>> now, she's "having to think on wether she will even take it". >> >>>>> and if she doesn't, i will fail. and i'm already failing psych >> due to >>>>> the information provided above...any thought? >> >>>>> Val >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jrhoads28 >> 4%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc >> co%40verizon.net >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul >> os%40maine.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us Sat Dec 6 05:32:08 2008 From: David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us (David B Andrews) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 23:32:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Introducing: The Optelec FarView Message-ID: >>> "Optelec U.S., Inc." 12/5/2008 10:10 AM >>> www.Optelec.com November 28th, 2008 For more information, contact: Kelly O'Neill Marketing Coordinator KellyO at Optelec.com 800-826-4200 x227 Optelec FarView Optelec Announces Innovated Near and Distance Low Vision Solution with the FarView Vista, CA, November 28th, 2008 Optelec, the world leader in innovative and assistive technology for visually impaired and blind people, announced the release of FarView, a portable and powerful magnification solution that redefines how low vision users are able to access, store, review and share information. The unique design of the Optelec FarView and incomparable functionality of near and distance viewing sets a new standard for other portable and desktop devices currently on the market. Using a centralized, auto focus camera and six different viewing modes the FarView allows the user to view from a distance as well as up close. Viewing notes on the board, reading the menu at coffee shops, and traveling independently has never been easier! Optelec FarView The FarView enables the user to store the data for up close review in more detail at any time. Capture a complete document or multiple pages of a book or magazine. Up to 100 images can be stored on the device and accessed at any given moment. Stored images can be adjusted to the users needs via an integrated menu. Ergonomic scrolling buttons help the user to navigate through any document easily and comfortably, with an auto-scroll function which brings the user back to the beginning of the text line within a snap. Adjust images and text to the needs of the user though rotation, picture alignment, contrast and brightness settings. Also, FarView offers the user flexibility to connect to an external monitor or PC, encouraging the user to access printed text and photos comfortably and efficiently, and share this information with colleagues, friends and family. We are ecstatic to be bringing a product such as FarView to an industry thirsting for innovation, states Michiel van Schaik, CEO of Optelec Holding B.V. We at Optelec are 100% committed to combining the intelligence within a product with a flexible, powerful design in order for the consumers of our products to exponentially receive more functionality for the money that they spend. Whether the needs are for on-the-go portability, viewing street signs, storing class notes, reviewing important documents, reading the morning newspaper or sharing information the Optelec FarView puts freedom and independence in the palms of the user. Optelec expects to be delivering FarView to users in January, 2009. Contact your local Optelec distributor or sales office for more information and pricing details. About Optelec US Improving the quality of life of visually impaired and dyslexic people, reaching out with simple and effective solutions, Optelec was founded in 1985 and is recognized as the worldwide market leaders in providing innovative solutions for the blind, visually impaired and learning disabled. The companys flagship ClearView+ line has led the industry in high quality, innovative products that effectively improve the daily lives of the visually impaired. In January 2007, Tieman U.S., Holding Company to Optelec U.S. spun off ShopLowVision.com (www.ShopLowVision.com) and LowVision.com (www.LowVision.com) as a sister companies, providing the one-stop-shop for optical, non-optical and daily living aids products solutions and education for eye care professionals and consumers. Visit us at www.optelec.com. Optelec FarView www.Optelec.com www.Optelec.com www.Optelec.com Optelec.com | 3030 Enterprise Court, Suite C, Vista, CA 92081 | 800-826-4200 Forward email Safe Unsubscribe This email was sent to david.b.andrews at state.mn.us by noreply at optelec.com. Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribeT | Privacy Policy. Optelec U.S., Inc. | 3030 Enterprise Court | Suite C | Vista | CA | 92081 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b3c51e.gif Type: image/gif Size: 3784 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b3c51e.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 18462 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: b3c56c.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24861 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Hunkin" To: Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:39 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Test Results > Hi. > just to let people know, passed this subject at my local college in visual > basic. > cheers Marvin. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nadil Sundarapperuma" > To: > Cc: "Steve Donaldson" > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:29 PM > Subject: Test Results > > > Hi Marvin, > > I am delighted inform you that you have passed both test. There were minor > problems your user interfaces but coding was perfect. All the programs > works > without any run time errors expect one. There was a problem with the > database connection (Test 2- Q2) due to the connection string property. > Your > final grades as follows; > > Test 1: Pass > Test 2: Pass > > > Regards, > > Nadil > > > > Nadil Sundarapperuma > Lecturer > IT Studies > TAFE SA - Adelaide City Campus > Tel.: 08 82078365 > Email : Nadil.Sundarapperuma at tafesa.edu.au >>>> "Marvin Hunkin" 04/12/08 10:21 PM >>> > Hi Nadil. > got some mail from tafe sa at noarlunga. > asking me about it studies and pre enrollment, and sent to my tas address? > unless, there are any it online courses, for 2009. > why did they send it to me, when they know that i am over 1000 kph away in > Devonport, tas? > damn computers again, got it wrong? > can you answer this one for me? > real strange! > cheers Marvin. > E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com > MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com > Skype: startrekcafe > We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! > Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One > > > > E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com > MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com > Skype: startrekcafe > We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! > Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One > > > E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com > MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com > Skype: startrekcafe > We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! > Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 20:44:12 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:44:12 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Is this really innovation? (Was: The Optelec FarView) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081206204412.GA12548@yumi.bluecherry.net> Oh look, it's a digital camera, with crappy storage and video output to a nearby screen. I've got a Canon that will do most of this stuff, although you really have got to hold it very still if you want a clear picture of text on a whiteboard across the room, but you can do it. It'll store thousands of pictures on a single SD card too, not 100. It's got a bigger screen than my digital camera, but I bet it's got a lot bigger price tag too. Any takers? Also, how many people on the nabs list have taken or will take a test provided by ETS? They're not going to let you use a device that can take pictures of the test! Joseph On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 11:32:08PM -0600, David B Andrews wrote: > > > >>> "Optelec U.S., Inc." 12/5/2008 10:10 AM >>> > > www.Optelec.com > > November 28th, 2008 > For more information, contact: > Kelly O'Neill > Marketing Coordinator > KellyO at Optelec.com > 800-826-4200 x227 > > Optelec FarView > > > Optelec Announces Innovated Near and Distance > Low Vision Solution with the FarView > > Vista, CA, November 28th, 2008 Optelec, the world leader in innovative > and assistive technology for visually impaired and blind people, > announced the release of FarView, a portable and powerful magnification > solution that redefines how low vision users are able to access, store, > review and share information. > > The unique design of the Optelec FarView and incomparable functionality > of near and distance viewing sets a new standard for other portable and > desktop devices currently on the market. > > Using a centralized, auto focus camera and six different viewing modes > the FarView allows the user to view from a distance as well as up close. > Viewing notes on the board, reading the menu at coffee shops, and > traveling independently has never been easier! > > > Optelec FarView > > > The FarView enables the user to store the data for up close review in > more detail at any time. Capture a complete document or multiple pages of > a book or magazine. Up to 100 images can be stored on the device and > accessed at any given moment. Stored images can be adjusted to the users > needs via an integrated menu. Ergonomic scrolling buttons help the user > to navigate through any document easily and comfortably, with an > auto-scroll function which brings the user back to the beginning of the > text line within a snap. Adjust images and text to the needs of the user > though rotation, picture alignment, contrast and brightness settings. > > Also, FarView offers the user flexibility to connect to an external > monitor or PC, encouraging the user to access printed text and photos > comfortably and efficiently, and share this information with colleagues, > friends and family. > > We are ecstatic to be bringing a product such as FarView to an industry > thirsting for innovation, states Michiel van Schaik, CEO of Optelec > Holding B.V. We at Optelec are 100% committed to combining the > intelligence within a product with a flexible, powerful design in order > for the consumers of our products to exponentially receive more > functionality for the money that they spend. > > Whether the needs are for on-the-go portability, viewing street signs, > storing class notes, reviewing important documents, reading the morning > newspaper or sharing information the Optelec FarView puts freedom and > independence in the palms of the user. > > Optelec expects to be delivering FarView to users in January, 2009. > Contact your local Optelec distributor or sales office for more > information and pricing details. > > About Optelec US > Improving the quality of life of visually impaired and dyslexic people, > reaching out with simple and effective solutions, Optelec was founded in > 1985 and is recognized as the worldwide market leaders in providing > innovative solutions for the blind, visually impaired and learning > disabled. The companys flagship ClearView+ line has led the industry in > high quality, innovative products that effectively improve the daily > lives of the visually impaired. In January 2007, Tieman U.S., Holding > Company to Optelec U.S. spun off ShopLowVision.com > (www.ShopLowVision.com) > and LowVision.com > (www.LowVision.com) > as a sister companies, providing the one-stop-shop for optical, > non-optical and daily living aids products solutions and education for > eye care professionals and consumers. Visit us at > www.optelec.com. > > Optelec FarView > > www.Optelec.com > > www.Optelec.com > > www.Optelec.com > > > Optelec.com | 3030 Enterprise Court, Suite C, Vista, CA 92081 | 800-826-4200 > > > > > > > > Forward > email > > > Safe Unsubscribe > > This email was sent to david.b.andrews at state.mn.us by > noreply at optelec.com. > Update > Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with > SafeUnsubscribeT > | Privacy > Policy. > > Optelec U.S., Inc. | 3030 Enterprise Court | Suite C | Vista | CA | 92081 >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From hope.paulos at maine.edu Sat Dec 6 22:36:02 2008 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 17:36:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Is this really innovation? (Was: The Optelec FarView) Message-ID: <20081206223313.ONWO11428.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Hello, Joseph. I wouldn't think they'd let you use this device to take a test provided by ETS. I'm totally blind, so can't can't get any use out of this device. Smile. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:44:12 -0800 >Subject: [nabs-l] Is this really innovation? (Was: The Optelec FarView) >Oh look, it's a digital camera, with crappy storage and video output to a >nearby screen. I've got a Canon that will do most of this stuff, although >you really have got to hold it very still if you want a clear picture of >text on a whiteboard across the room, but you can do it. It'll store >thousands of pictures on a single SD card too, not 100. It's got a bigger >screen than my digital camera, but I bet it's got a lot bigger price tag >too. Any takers? >Also, how many people on the nabs list have taken or will take a test >provided by ETS? They're not going to let you use a device that can take >pictures of the test! >Joseph >On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 11:32:08PM -0600, David B Andrews wrote: >>>>> "Optelec U.S., Inc." 12/5/2008 10:10 AM >> > www.Optelec.com >> November 28th, 2008 >> For more information, contact: >> Kelly O'Neill >> Marketing Coordinator >> KellyO at Optelec.com >> 800-826-4200 x227 >> > Optelec FarView >> Optelec Announces Innovated Near and Distance >> Low Vision Solution with the FarView >> Vista, CA, November 28th, 2008 Optelec, the world leader in innovative >> and assistive technology for visually impaired and blind people, >> announced the release of FarView, a portable and powerful magnification >> solution that redefines how low vision users are able to access, store, >> review and share information. >> The unique design of the Optelec FarView and incomparable functionality >> of near and distance viewing sets a new standard for other portable and >> desktop devices currently on the market. >> Using a centralized, auto focus camera and six different viewing modes >> the FarView allows the user to view from a distance as well as up close. >> Viewing notes on the board, reading the menu at coffee shops, and >> traveling independently has never been easier! >> > Optelec FarView >> The FarView enables the user to store the data for up close review in >> more detail at any time. Capture a complete document or multiple pages of >> a book or magazine. Up to 100 images can be stored on the device and >> accessed at any given moment. Stored images can be adjusted to the users >> needs via an integrated menu. Ergonomic scrolling buttons help the user >> to navigate through any document easily and comfortably, with an >> auto-scroll function which brings the user back to the beginning of the >> text line within a snap. Adjust images and text to the needs of the user >> though rotation, picture alignment, contrast and brightness settings. >> Also, FarView offers the user flexibility to connect to an external >> monitor or PC, encouraging the user to access printed text and photos >> comfortably and efficiently, and share this information with colleagues, >> friends and family. >> We are ecstatic to be bringing a product such as FarView to an industry >> thirsting for innovation, states Michiel van Schaik, CEO of Optelec >> Holding B.V. We at Optelec are 100% committed to combining the >> intelligence within a product with a flexible, powerful design in order >> for the consumers of our products to exponentially receive more >> functionality for the money that they spend. >> Whether the needs are for on-the-go portability, viewing street signs, >> storing class notes, reviewing important documents, reading the morning >> newspaper or sharing information the Optelec FarView puts freedom and >> independence in the palms of the user. >> Optelec expects to be delivering FarView to users in January, 2009. >> Contact your local Optelec distributor or sales office for more >> information and pricing details. >> About Optelec US >> Improving the quality of life of visually impaired and dyslexic people, >> reaching out with simple and effective solutions, Optelec was founded in >> 1985 and is recognized as the worldwide market leaders in providing >> innovative solutions for the blind, visually impaired and learning >> disabled. The companys flagship ClearView+ line has led the industry in >> high quality, innovative products that effectively improve the daily >> lives of the visually impaired. In January 2007, Tieman U.S., Holding >> Company to Optelec U.S. spun off ShopLowVision.com >> (www.ShopLowVision.com) >> and LowVision.com >> (www.LowVision.com) >> as a sister companies, providing the one-stop-shop for optical, >> non-optical and daily living aids products solutions and education for >> eye care professionals and consumers. Visit us at >> www.optelec.com. >> > Optelec FarView >> www.Optelec.com >> www.Optelec.com >> www.Optelec.com >> Optelec.com | 3030 Enterprise Court, Suite C, Vista, CA 92081 | 800-826-4200 >> Forward >> email >> > Safe Unsubscribe >> This email was sent to david.b.andrews at state.mn.us by >> noreply at optelec.com. >> Update >> Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with >> SafeUnsubscribeT >> | Privacy >> Policy. >> Optelec U.S., Inc. | 3030 Enterprise Court | Suite C | Vista | CA | 92081 >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tj oseph%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine.edu From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 05:30:16 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:30:16 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Is this really innovation? (Was: The Optelec FarView) In-Reply-To: <20081206223313.ONWO11428.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> References: <20081206223313.ONWO11428.hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <20081207053016.GA15449@yumi.bluecherry.net> Nope, not a chance. If it can store anything, you can't use it. Print's a useful thing sometime, but Braille is definitely faster, and comes without headaches. Joseph On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 05:36:02PM -0500, Hope Paulos wrote: > Hello, Joseph. I wouldn't think they'd let you use this device to take > a test provided by ETS. I'm totally blind, so can't can't get any use > out of this device. Smile. From startrekcafe at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 09:39:18 2008 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 20:39:18 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] windows live messenger Message-ID: <4CFA899D0992435AAEBE4AE80D4F3C4E@marvinPC> Hi. just added a contact and tried to send a sms, but jaws is having problems, trying to focus, and was wondering. is there an invisible cursur or some edit fields, not reading properly. what other accessibility settings do i need to change in order to jaws to read really well with windows live messenger. and could not even get to my sister's contact, and kept landing when i tried to send a sms, to the other contac tperson's list. and when i did a search for sister's contact, could be not found. so, using jaws 10 with windows vista. any help or suggestions, how to resolve this issue? cheers Marvin. ps: and is there a jaws friendly tutorial on using some of the other features of windows live or msn messenger? E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One From queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 13:00:46 2008 From: queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com (Marsha) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:00:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] windows live messenger In-Reply-To: <4CFA899D0992435AAEBE4AE80D4F3C4E@marvinPC> References: <4CFA899D0992435AAEBE4AE80D4F3C4E@marvinPC> Message-ID: <379D5AF1AED445428C6ED8C4E238D30A@Cptr233> I have used windows live for a good while, and have since upgraded to the windows live plus. Now lets take a look at the window it self, if I can remember it. You have the main window with yoru contacts in it, when you install it, or first log in, it should put you into the window with yoru contacts. If you arrow down you will see yoru contacts. If you tab and or shift tab, there will be other options you will run into. If you have added a contact by going to the contact menu at the top of the window, in other words, Alt F and arrow over once to contacts, when the window opens, the first field you will land on is to add a contact. This edit box is where you put in the email address of the person you want on yoru contact list. To add them official you will tab until you get top the Ok box at the bottom. Of course there is a lot of other information you can add about a person but I suusally do not do that. Back in the main window, at the top it is going to say something to the effect of quick search edit box, if you continue to arrow down, it will say contact list. In the contact list you will want to arrow, to get to other options it is tab and or shift tab. There are several catergories that you can place a person in, family, friends, or co-workers. There is not really any tricks, well that I know of atleast. You also may have to encounter adds on yoru windows live messenger. And if you get into the little area where there the adds, if you continue to tab it will take you in a circle, sort to speak, like where you started you will get back to that point. If you tab through all the options in the main window, do not get into the menus just yet but familiarize your self with the main window. There will be most likely all sorts of options for voice chat, emicons. Once you find the main window with the contacts if will be easy to stay in that window as you will have to arrow down the contacts. To instant messange with that contact you will enter on there name or what email address is there. When you enter on there name, another window will open up, and it should land you right into a edit field for you to type in. again to navigate around this window is just a matter of tabs. I know for the version of windows live I have I can use, the command control shift H to get to the history window, the history window the little box in which what the person you are speaking with and what you say are displayed there. Jaws will , or should automatically read what the persons writes. Your friends can also add you first, fi that is easier, and then Im you first. Like I said when you first open windows live it should put you right into a box that will say at the top quick search edit, that is the contact window, and a lot of times that throws people off. I hope I have covered it all. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:39 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] windows live messenger Hi. just added a contact and tried to send a sms, but jaws is having problems, trying to focus, and was wondering. is there an invisible cursur or some edit fields, not reading properly. what other accessibility settings do i need to change in order to jaws to read really well with windows live messenger. and could not even get to my sister's contact, and kept landing when i tried to send a sms, to the other contac tperson's list. and when i did a search for sister's contact, could be not found. so, using jaws 10 with windows vista. any help or suggestions, how to resolve this issue? cheers Marvin. ps: and is there a jaws friendly tutorial on using some of the other features of windows live or msn messenger? E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/queen.marsha.lindsey %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3668 (20081206) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3668 (20081206) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 13:05:32 2008 From: queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com (Marsha) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 08:05:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] windows live messenger In-Reply-To: <4CFA899D0992435AAEBE4AE80D4F3C4E@marvinPC> References: <4CFA899D0992435AAEBE4AE80D4F3C4E@marvinPC> Message-ID: <6D02C7388A0A409DB50E53713AF59E52@Cptr233> Oh and I forgot to mention, that the contact lists such as family or friends opens, you can close it by using yoru left arrow and by opening it you will use yoru right arrow. This is why you may not be able to see yrou sister or other contacts. Once you open it leave it open. I have all my contacts in friends, but I don't know where you placed yours in which catergory. Hope that helps more, Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:39 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] windows live messenger Hi. just added a contact and tried to send a sms, but jaws is having problems, trying to focus, and was wondering. is there an invisible cursur or some edit fields, not reading properly. what other accessibility settings do i need to change in order to jaws to read really well with windows live messenger. and could not even get to my sister's contact, and kept landing when i tried to send a sms, to the other contac tperson's list. and when i did a search for sister's contact, could be not found. so, using jaws 10 with windows vista. any help or suggestions, how to resolve this issue? cheers Marvin. ps: and is there a jaws friendly tutorial on using some of the other features of windows live or msn messenger? E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/queen.marsha.lindsey %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3668 (20081206) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3668 (20081206) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sun Dec 7 16:55:13 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:55:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] windows live messenger In-Reply-To: <4CFA899D0992435AAEBE4AE80D4F3C4E@marvinPC> References: <4CFA899D0992435AAEBE4AE80D4F3C4E@marvinPC> Message-ID: What version of MSN are you using? Windows messenger is really old but windows live messenger should work just fine with jaws. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 4:39 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] windows live messenger Hi. just added a contact and tried to send a sms, but jaws is having problems, trying to focus, and was wondering. is there an invisible cursur or some edit fields, not reading properly. what other accessibility settings do i need to change in order to jaws to read really well with windows live messenger. and could not even get to my sister's contact, and kept landing when i tried to send a sms, to the other contac tperson's list. and when i did a search for sister's contact, could be not found. so, using jaws 10 with windows vista. any help or suggestions, how to resolve this issue? cheers Marvin. ps: and is there a jaws friendly tutorial on using some of the other features of windows live or msn messenger? E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 21:50:46 2008 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 15:50:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Colorado, Florida, and Minnesota Work Together On Tonight's Djd Invasion Message-ID: <807E7FD824654AEB82F28765C7997F25@DavidsDataPortal> Hi All! Join me for what should be an awesome Djd Invasion show tonight at 8 PM central. During the show, Kelly from Florida will be guest hosting, and friend Amazing Amy from Colorado is visiting and will be chiming in with her comments and thoughts during the show as well. This, combined with a nice blend of pop, country, and Christmas songs should make for a fun program. The fun begins at 8 PM central, and while it's on air, you're welcome to get in touch with us by msn/email at djdrocks4ever at gmail.com by aol instant messenger at the screen name djdrocks or when we're not playing songs, you can give us a call by dialing 1-516-874-5071 or if you have skype, just hit us up at thedjdinvasion If you're ready for what should be a fun December show, save this email, and at 8 PM central, go to http://www.thedjdinvasion.com/listen.html to be connected to us live! Hope to see you all there! Best regards, David, A.K.A Djd, host of The Djd Invasion http://www.thedjdinvasion.com From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 01:11:21 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:11:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod Message-ID: <493c743e.0c17400a.2118.fffff8e8@mx.google.com> Can anyone answer me with expereinces to forward back to this mom about the current access to iTunes and new talking ipod? Thanks! Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or using the new talking iPod? _______________________________________________ blindkid mailing list blindkid at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm ail.com From nancyjeck at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 02:40:42 2008 From: nancyjeck at yahoo.com (nancy jeckel) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 18:40:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] digital recorders? Message-ID: <469103.39627.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Does anyone use a digital recorder and if so, does it have the ability to work with Dragon Naturally Speaking?  What do we need to know when we get one?  What features are most important and what doesn't really matter?  Thanks for any help!  - Nancy From fantasyfanatic01 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 02:50:24 2008 From: fantasyfanatic01 at gmail.com (Franandah Damstra) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:50:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod In-Reply-To: <493c743e.0c17400a.2118.fffff8e8@mx.google.com> References: <493c743e.0c17400a.2118.fffff8e8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: There is a new talking iPod?! I want it. I know you can use itunes with Jaws, but it doesn't work that well. I just use Rhapsody and that works a lot better. For my ipod I just use Rock Box and have voices installed. However, if there is a talking ipod, I would love to hear about it. ~Fern On 12/7/08, Carrie Gilmer wrote: > Can anyone answer me with expereinces to forward back to this mom about the > current access to iTunes and new talking ipod? > > Thanks! > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind > NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 > Home Phone: 763-784-8590 > carrie.gilmer at gmail.com > www.nfb.org/nopbc > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) > Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod > > > Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or > using the new talking iPod? > > > _______________________________________________ > blindkid mailing list > blindkid at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindkid: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fantasyfanatic01%40gmail.com > From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 04:17:49 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 23:17:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] digital recorders? In-Reply-To: <469103.39627.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <469103.39627.qm@web34302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <493ca003.1e068e0a.4e1d.3879@mx.google.com> ILA sells a Sony that comes with a version of Dragon. I have it, but did not have any success getting that version of Dragon to work. It kept coming up and saying something was missing. That was on a different computer than I have now though, so I can't say how good or bad it is for sure. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of nancy jeckel Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:41 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] digital recorders? Does anyone use a digital recorder and if so, does it have the ability to work with Dragon Naturally Speaking?  What do we need to know when we get one?  What features are most important and what doesn't really matter?  Thanks for any help!  - Nancy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com From nancyjeck at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 18:03:51 2008 From: nancyjeck at yahoo.com (nancy jeckel) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:03:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <895714.64164.qm@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Scott, I just ordered it and am hoping for the best since the computer it will be paired with is new (as of this summer0 and has plenty of RAM.  So could you return it since the software didn't work?  Nancy --- On Mon, 12/8/08, nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org wrote: From: nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 12:00 PM Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to nabs-l at nfbnet.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org You can reach the person managing the list at nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Colorado, Florida, and Minnesota Work Together On Tonight's Djd Invasion (David Dunphy) 2. FW: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod (Carrie Gilmer) 3. digital recorders? (nancy jeckel) 4. Re: FW: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod (Franandah Damstra) 5. Re: digital recorders? (Scott Spaulding) Hi All! Join me for what should be an awesome Djd Invasion show tonight at 8 PM central. During the show, Kelly from Florida will be guest hosting, and friend Amazing Amy from Colorado is visiting and will be chiming in with her comments and thoughts during the show as well. This, combined with a nice blend of pop, country, and Christmas songs should make for a fun program. The fun begins at 8 PM central, and while it's on air, you're welcome to get in touch with us by msn/email at djdrocks4ever at gmail.com by aol instant messenger at the screen name djdrocks or when we're not playing songs, you can give us a call by dialing 1-516-874-5071 or if you have skype, just hit us up at thedjdinvasion If you're ready for what should be a fun December show, save this email, and at 8 PM central, go to http://www.thedjdinvasion.com/listen.html to be connected to us live! Hope to see you all there! Best regards, David, A.K.A Djd, host of The Djd Invasion http://www.thedjdinvasion.com Can anyone answer me with expereinces to forward back to this mom about the current access to iTunes and new talking ipod? Thanks! Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or using the new talking iPod? _______________________________________________ blindkid mailing list blindkid at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm ail.com Does anyone use a digital recorder and if so, does it have the ability to work with Dragon Naturally Speaking?  What do we need to know when we get one?  What features are most important and what doesn't really matter?  Thanks for any help!  - Nancy There is a new talking iPod?! I want it. I know you can use itunes with Jaws, but it doesn't work that well. I just use Rhapsody and that works a lot better. For my ipod I just use Rock Box and have voices installed. However, if there is a talking ipod, I would love to hear about it. ~Fern On 12/7/08, Carrie Gilmer wrote: > Can anyone answer me with expereinces to forward back to this mom about the > current access to iTunes and new talking ipod? > > Thanks! > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind > NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 > Home Phone: 763-784-8590 > carrie.gilmer at gmail.com > www.nfb.org/nopbc > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) > Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod > > > Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or > using the new talking iPod? > > > _______________________________________________ > blindkid mailing list > blindkid at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindkid: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fantasyfanatic01%40gmail.com > ILA sells a Sony that comes with a version of Dragon. I have it, but did not have any success getting that version of Dragon to work. It kept coming up and saying something was missing. That was on a different computer than I have now though, so I can't say how good or bad it is for sure. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of nancy jeckel Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:41 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] digital recorders? Does anyone use a digital recorder and if so, does it have the ability to work with Dragon Naturally Speaking?  What do we need to know when we get one?  What features are most important and what doesn't really matter?  Thanks for any help!  - Nancy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 19:29:54 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:29:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 In-Reply-To: <895714.64164.qm@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <895714.64164.qm@web34305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <493d75c9.1e038e0a.4554.3e8f@mx.google.com> I didn't, since the main thing it was needed for was audio, although the text translation would have been nice. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of nancy jeckel Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 1:04 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 Scott, I just ordered it and am hoping for the best since the computer it will be paired with is new (as of this summer0 and has plenty of RAM.  So could you return it since the software didn't work?  Nancy --- On Mon, 12/8/08, nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org wrote: From: nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 8 To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 12:00 PM Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to nabs-l at nfbnet.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org You can reach the person managing the list at nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Colorado, Florida, and Minnesota Work Together On Tonight's Djd Invasion (David Dunphy) 2. FW: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod (Carrie Gilmer) 3. digital recorders? (nancy jeckel) 4. Re: FW: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod (Franandah Damstra) 5. Re: digital recorders? (Scott Spaulding) Hi All! Join me for what should be an awesome Djd Invasion show tonight at 8 PM central. During the show, Kelly from Florida will be guest hosting, and friend Amazing Amy from Colorado is visiting and will be chiming in with her comments and thoughts during the show as well. This, combined with a nice blend of pop, country, and Christmas songs should make for a fun program. The fun begins at 8 PM central, and while it's on air, you're welcome to get in touch with us by msn/email at djdrocks4ever at gmail.com by aol instant messenger at the screen name djdrocks or when we're not playing songs, you can give us a call by dialing 1-516-874-5071 or if you have skype, just hit us up at thedjdinvasion If you're ready for what should be a fun December show, save this email, and at 8 PM central, go to http://www.thedjdinvasion.com/listen.html to be connected to us live! Hope to see you all there! Best regards, David, A.K.A Djd, host of The Djd Invasion http://www.thedjdinvasion.com Can anyone answer me with expereinces to forward back to this mom about the current access to iTunes and new talking ipod? Thanks! Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or using the new talking iPod? _______________________________________________ blindkid mailing list blindkid at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm ail.com Does anyone use a digital recorder and if so, does it have the ability to work with Dragon Naturally Speaking?  What do we need to know when we get one?  What features are most important and what doesn't really matter?  Thanks for any help!  - Nancy There is a new talking iPod?! I want it. I know you can use itunes with Jaws, but it doesn't work that well. I just use Rhapsody and that works a lot better. For my ipod I just use Rock Box and have voices installed. However, if there is a talking ipod, I would love to hear about it. ~Fern On 12/7/08, Carrie Gilmer wrote: > Can anyone answer me with expereinces to forward back to this mom about the > current access to iTunes and new talking ipod? > > Thanks! > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind > NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 > Home Phone: 763-784-8590 > carrie.gilmer at gmail.com > www.nfb.org/nopbc > > -----Original Message----- > From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM > To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) > Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod > > > Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or > using the new talking iPod? > > > _______________________________________________ > blindkid mailing list > blindkid at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > blindkid: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fantasyfanatic01%40g mail.com > ILA sells a Sony that comes with a version of Dragon. I have it, but did not have any success getting that version of Dragon to work. It kept coming up and saying something was missing. That was on a different computer than I have now though, so I can't say how good or bad it is for sure. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of nancy jeckel Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 9:41 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] digital recorders? Does anyone use a digital recorder and if so, does it have the ability to work with Dragon Naturally Speaking?  What do we need to know when we get one?  What features are most important and what doesn't really matter?  Thanks for any help!  - Nancy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 20:13:21 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:13:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch Message-ID: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am finding reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should be 1:08. Any tips? Thanks Rania, From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 20:51:56 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:51:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812081251g6d881264nfd17825c520ccc43@mail.gmail.com> I have a Braille watch whose minute hand is elevated so you can feel it better than you can feel the hour hand. But that's fine. The minute hand is usually longer than the hour hand and goes around in a complete circle faster. So always remember these things when you're reading a raille watch. Beth On 12/8/08, Rania wrote: > Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a > long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am finding > reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the > hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should > be 1:08. Any tips? > Thanks > Rania, > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From passionflower505 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 21:09:10 2008 From: passionflower505 at yahoo.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:09:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <195738.56438.qm@web65603.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> You kind of have to guess which minute it is when the minute hand is between two numbers. If it is just after the three, then it is safe to say that it is 16 minutes after the hour, but if it is just before the 4, it is safe to say that it is 19 minutes after he hour, if it is somewhere in the middle, then you just have to guestimate. After you have had it a while, you will get to know the positions of the minute hand more exactly, and it will be easier to figure out. The only problem i have had with braille watches is that, after a while, they have had a tendency to come open by themselves, so that is why they now annoy me, but if anyone has found a better quality watch that does not do this, then share. Cindy --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Rania wrote: > From: Rania > Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 3:13 PM > Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. > It has bin a long time since I learned how to read off of a > braille clock so I am finding reading the braille watch is a > llittle difficult to read. I can find the hour hand but I am > having a hard time with the minutes like when it should be > 1:08. Any tips? > Thanks > Rania, > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/passionflower505%40yahoo.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 21:09:12 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:09:12 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> Rania, I spend a lot of time with a Judy Clock doing student teaching, so I have developed the ability to read minutes on an analog clock, but very few people ever try to read the minutes with any precision on an analog watch. You're more likely to get "It's about ten after one." And lo and behold, it is about ten after one in Oregon. 1:08 to be exact. On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 03:13:21PM -0500, Rania wrote: >Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am finding reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should be 1:08. Any tips? >Thanks >Rania, >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 21:27:01 2008 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:27:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <54f02f10812081327l735a354ud7a97a03f04c9488@mail.gmail.com> I've never been good at reading braille watches. This is why I like the talking ones better. On 12/8/08, Rania wrote: > Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a > long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am finding > reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the > hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should > be 1:08. Any tips? > Thanks > Rania, > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina From harryhogue at yahoo.com Mon Dec 8 21:35:43 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 13:35:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <513723.77666.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Does that apply to print watches, too?  I know on braille watches they go in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and the short hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on the 2 (or the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 it's 3:15, etc.  I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it is "3:02, or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe it's 3:04, etc.  Does that help?   Thanks,   Harry --- On Mon, 12/8/08, T. Joseph Carter wrote: From: T. Joseph Carter Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 3:09 PM Rania, I spend a lot of time with a Judy Clock doing student teaching, so I have developed the ability to read minutes on an analog clock, but very few people ever try to read the minutes with any precision on an analog watch. You're more likely to get "It's about ten after one." And lo and behold, it is about ten after one in Oregon. 1:08 to be exact. On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 03:13:21PM -0500, Rania wrote: >Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am finding reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should be 1:08. Any tips? >Thanks >Rania, >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com From rmiller at osb.k12.ok.us Mon Dec 8 21:58:22 2008 From: rmiller at osb.k12.ok.us (Robert Miller) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:58:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard In-Reply-To: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I’m a teacher at the Oklahoma School for the Blind, and I teach assistive technology devices to students. I teach students from 2nd to 12th grade and I need your help regarding my high school seniors. More and more college students are being required to access blackboard from the college teachers. I’m told that blackboard isn’t very Jaws friendly. I wanted to get your opinion on blackboard’s accessibility. Is it accessible? If so, what is the best method of accessing it? Is there a set of keyboard commands that I can download to teach my students? Any help on accessing blackboard would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Waiting for your help! Robert. From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 23:56:23 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:56:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <54f02f10812081327l735a354ud7a97a03f04c9488@mail.gmail.com> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <54f02f10812081327l735a354ud7a97a03f04c9488@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812081556u770d0784v6fe51bfb982a9e49@mail.gmail.com> But don't the talking ones get a little disruptive in office buildings and work meetings? That's why I'm all about Braille watches. Beth On 12/8/08, Christina Mitchell wrote: > I've never been good at reading braille watches. This is why I like > the talking ones better. > > On 12/8/08, Rania wrote: >> Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a >> long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am >> finding >> reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the >> hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should >> be 1:08. Any tips? >> Thanks >> Rania, >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Christina > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From passionflower505 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 9 00:21:08 2008 From: passionflower505 at yahoo.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:21:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <793790.62153.qm@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I use jaws version 9, and as far as i can tell, blackboard is accessible. Granted, i only use it for a couple of classes, i have been able to read and turn in assignments, and i can fill out the online quizzes just fine. I haven't used any commands that are unusual, but again, i haven't really researched it since i only have to use it for a couple of classes. I have heard that some people have trouble with discussion boards and live online discussions, but i am not familiar with those. Cindy --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Robert Miller wrote: > From: Robert Miller > Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 4:58 PM > Hi everyone, I’m a teacher at the Oklahoma School for the > Blind, and I teach assistive technology devices to students. > I teach students from 2nd to 12th grade and I need your > help regarding my high school seniors. More and more > college students are being required to access blackboard > from the college teachers. I’m told that blackboard > isn’t very Jaws friendly. I wanted to get your opinion on > blackboard’s accessibility. Is it accessible? If so, what > is the best method of accessing it? Is there a set of > keyboard commands that I can download to teach my students? > Any help on accessing blackboard would be greatly > appreciated. > > Thank you! > Waiting for your help! > Robert. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/passionflower505%40yahoo.com From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 00:40:46 2008 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 19:40:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0812081556u770d0784v6fe51bfb982a9e49@mail.gmail.com> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <54f02f10812081327l735a354ud7a97a03f04c9488@mail.gmail.com> <4383d01d0812081556u770d0784v6fe51bfb982a9e49@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54f02f10812081640u705bbc01g33b483b50a6b640a@mail.gmail.com> You can always turn off the hour announcer. On 12/8/08, Beth wrote: > But don't the talking ones get a little disruptive in office buildings > and work meetings? That's why I'm all about Braille watches. > Beth > > On 12/8/08, Christina Mitchell wrote: >> I've never been good at reading braille watches. This is why I like >> the talking ones better. >> >> On 12/8/08, Rania wrote: >>> Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a >>> long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am >>> finding >>> reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the >>> hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it >>> should >>> be 1:08. Any tips? >>> Thanks >>> Rania, >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Christina >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 01:00:12 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:00:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard In-Reply-To: References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <493dc336.1c048e0a.6408.1834@mx.google.com> I use it some and I have not had any trouble to speak of. It is somewhat time consuming sometimes, since the pages are divided into sections, but I have found at least with some pages I can navigate quicker with heading navigation. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Miller Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard Hi everyone, I'm a teacher at the Oklahoma School for the Blind, and I teach assistive technology devices to students. I teach students from 2nd to 12th grade and I need your help regarding my high school seniors. More and more college students are being required to access blackboard from the college teachers. I'm told that blackboard isn't very Jaws friendly. I wanted to get your opinion on blackboard's accessibility. Is it accessible? If so, what is the best method of accessing it? Is there a set of keyboard commands that I can download to teach my students? Any help on accessing blackboard would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Waiting for your help! Robert. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Dec 9 01:09:38 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:09:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard In-Reply-To: References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: Hi! I am a first-year student and many of my professors use blackboard as a means to communicate with their students and to post assignments. I find it is very accessible - just like any other webpage. So all the regular Internet Explorer keystrokes apply. I use JAWS 9 it that is of any help. Good luck, Sarah Jevnikar -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Robert Miller Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:58 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard Hi everyone, I'm a teacher at the Oklahoma School for the Blind, and I teach assistive technology devices to students. I teach students from 2nd to 12th grade and I need your help regarding my high school seniors. More and more college students are being required to access blackboard from the college teachers. I'm told that blackboard isn't very Jaws friendly. I wanted to get your opinion on blackboard's accessibility. Is it accessible? If so, what is the best method of accessing it? Is there a set of keyboard commands that I can download to teach my students? Any help on accessing blackboard would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Waiting for your help! Robert. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Tue Dec 9 01:12:41 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 17:12:41 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch Message-ID: <20081209011204.MOWM14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> I think there's good and bad things about both of them. I have a Braille Jatch, but I can't read it... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Beth To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:56:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch >But don't the talking ones get a little disruptive in office buildings >and work meetings? That's why I'm all about Braille watches. >Beth >On 12/8/08, Christina Mitchell wrote: >> I've never been good at reading braille watches. This is why I like >> the talking ones better. >> On 12/8/08, Rania wrote: >>> Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a >>> long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am >>> finding >>> reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the >>> hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should >>> be 1:08. Any tips? >>> Thanks >>> Rania, >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor07 3%40gmail.com >> -- >> Christina >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi sloose%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 02:55:05 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:55:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <54f02f10812081640u705bbc01g33b483b50a6b640a@mail.gmail.com> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <54f02f10812081327l735a354ud7a97a03f04c9488@mail.gmail.com> <4383d01d0812081556u770d0784v6fe51bfb982a9e49@mail.gmail.com> <54f02f10812081640u705bbc01g33b483b50a6b640a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812081855t551928c1qc8297c3a0dbbebfb@mail.gmail.com> It's not so much the hour announcer. But if you need a reminder or if you want to check the time, sometimes the watch can sayy something and either you can't hear it unless it's pressed against your er or it's disruptive in an office setting. Beth On 12/8/08, Christina Mitchell wrote: > You can always turn off the hour announcer. > > On 12/8/08, Beth wrote: >> But don't the talking ones get a little disruptive in office buildings >> and work meetings? That's why I'm all about Braille watches. >> Beth >> >> On 12/8/08, Christina Mitchell wrote: >>> I've never been good at reading braille watches. This is why I like >>> the talking ones better. >>> >>> On 12/8/08, Rania wrote: >>>> Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a >>>> long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am >>>> finding >>>> reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the >>>> hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it >>>> should >>>> be 1:08. Any tips? >>>> Thanks >>>> Rania, >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Christina >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Christina > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 02:55:05 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:55:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <513723.77666.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> <513723.77666.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081209025505.GC36060@yumi.bluecherry.net> Harry, A Braille watch is essentially analog print watch that you can open up. It has bumps where numbers normally go. It does take just a little getting used to if you want to feel the time, but it's not that hard really. Joseph On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 01:35:43PM -0800, Harry Hogue wrote: >Does that apply to print watches, too?  I know on braille watches they go in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and the short hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on the 2 (or the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 it's 3:15, etc.  I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it is "3:02, or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe it's 3:04, etc.  Does that help? >  >Thanks, >  >Harry From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 02:59:16 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 18:59:16 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0812081556u770d0784v6fe51bfb982a9e49@mail.gmail.com> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <54f02f10812081327l735a354ud7a97a03f04c9488@mail.gmail.com> <4383d01d0812081556u770d0784v6fe51bfb982a9e49@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081209025916.GD36060@yumi.bluecherry.net> I agree Beth, talking watches just don't exactly scream professional environment to me. BONG!!! It's six fifty seven pm! *insert stupid rooster* Want to know how to look like a fool in front of sighted people in a hurry? That rooster will do it in seconds. Joseph On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 06:56:23PM -0500, Beth wrote: >But don't the talking ones get a little disruptive in office buildings >and work meetings? That's why I'm all about Braille watches. >Beth > >On 12/8/08, Christina Mitchell wrote: >> I've never been good at reading braille watches. This is why I like >> the talking ones better. >> >> On 12/8/08, Rania wrote: >>> Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a >>> long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am >>> finding >>> reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can find the >>> hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when it should >>> be 1:08. Any tips? >>> Thanks >>> Rania, >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Christina >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 03:13:32 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:13:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <20081209025505.GC36060@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> <513723.77666.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081209025505.GC36060@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812081913y3d174ffdv657605c0e94d0cd2@mail.gmail.com> LMAO! You betcha. I don't want to look like a fool in front of sighted friends, so I feel that a Braille watch will do the trick when I want to blend in. Plus, nobody knows it's special until I open the crystal. Beth On 12/8/08, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Harry, > > A Braille watch is essentially analog print watch that you can open up. It > has bumps where numbers normally go. It does take just a little getting > used to if you want to feel the time, but it's not that hard really. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 01:35:43PM -0800, Harry Hogue wrote: >>Does that apply to print watches, too? I know on braille watches they go >> in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and the short >> hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on the 2 (or >> the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 it's 3:15, >> etc. I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it is "3:02, >> or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe it's 3:04, >> etc. Does that help? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Harry > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 04:12:43 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:12:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <006901c959b4$631f49b0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Ok I am finding that I am slowly able to find the hour and minute hands and can tell if it is something like 12:15 but I am not understanding ware the numbers like the 01 come in. How can you figure that out? Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch > Rania, > > I spend a lot of time with a Judy Clock doing student teaching, so I have > developed the ability to read minutes on an analog clock, but very few > people ever try to read the minutes with any precision on an analog watch. > You're more likely to get "It's about ten after one." And lo and behold, > it is about ten after one in Oregon. 1:08 to be exact. > > On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 03:13:21PM -0500, Rania wrote: >>Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has bin a >>long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so I am >>finding reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to read. I can >>find the hour hand but I am having a hard time with the minutes like when >>it should be 1:08. Any tips? >>Thanks >>Rania, _______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Tue Dec 9 05:15:21 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:15:21 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch Message-ID: <20081209051443.PELC14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> This is just my opinion; I think that when we use a cane, it shows that we're blind or visually impaired, so I don't think it really makes a difference because our cane already shows that we're different, so using a talking watch probably wouldn't make that much more of a difference... I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I don't think using a talking watch will make people look like fools. >----- Original Message ----- >From: Beth To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:13:32 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch >LMAO! You betcha. I don't want to look like a fool in front of >sighted friends, so I feel that a Braille watch will do the trick when >I want to blend in. Plus, nobody knows it's special until I open the >crystal. >Beth >On 12/8/08, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Harry, >> A Braille watch is essentially analog print watch that you can open up. It >> has bumps where numbers normally go. It does take just a little getting >> used to if you want to feel the time, but it's not that hard really. >> Joseph >> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 01:35:43PM -0800, Harry Hogue wrote: >>>Does that apply to print watches, too? I know on braille watches they go >>> in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and the short >>> hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on the 2 (or >>> the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 it's 3:15, >>> etc. I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it is "3:02, >>> or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe it's 3:04, >>> etc. Does that help? >>>Thanks, >>>Harry >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi sloose%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From dwebster125 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 05:29:53 2008 From: dwebster125 at gmail.com (david webster) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 23:29:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0812081913y3d174ffdv657605c0e94d0cd2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> <513723.77666.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081209025505.GC36060@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4383d01d0812081913y3d174ffdv657605c0e94d0cd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b1de0a70812082129i3171e429m5b51ce7da1ea47ec@mail.gmail.com> Yah. I pretty much agree with everyone else on here. I have been using a braille watch for many years now. I'm 34 and wehn I went to schol in grade wchool there were no wuch things as talking watches. If you were blind you wore a braille watch and back then it was one of those old fashion ones whare you use to have to wind it. In fact I still have one of which I bought from the the natonal center. Yah I agree. thanks.bluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote: > LMAO! You betcha. I don't want to look like a fool in front of > sighted friends, so I feel that a Braille watch will do the trick when > I want to blend in. Plus, nobody knows it's special until I open the > crystal. > Beth > > On 12/8/08, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Harry, >> >> A Braille watch is essentially analog print watch that you can open up. >> It >> has bumps where numbers normally go. It does take just a little getting >> used to if you want to feel the time, but it's not that hard really. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 01:35:43PM -0800, Harry Hogue wrote: >>>Does that apply to print watches, too? I know on braille watches they go >>> in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and the >>> short >>> hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on the 2 (or >>> the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 it's 3:15, >>> etc. I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it is "3:02, >>> or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe it's 3:04, >>> etc. Does that help? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Harry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dwebster125%40gmail.com > From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 07:03:58 2008 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 02:03:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <20081209051443.PELC14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> References: <20081209051443.PELC14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <54f02f10812082303x6d2ef58bx1241a43c5f824df5@mail.gmail.com> Yeah it's as simple, turn off the hour announcers and rooster alarms and you're good to go until after your meetings. On 12/9/08, hannah wrote: > This is just my opinion; I think that when we use a cane, it > shows that we're blind or visually impaired, so I don't think it > really makes a difference because our cane already shows that > we're different, so using a talking watch probably wouldn't make > that much more of a difference... I don't mean to be rude or > anything, but I don't think using a talking watch will make > people look like fools. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Beth >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:13:32 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch > >>LMAO! You betcha. I don't want to look like a fool in front of >>sighted friends, so I feel that a Braille watch will do the trick > when >>I want to blend in. Plus, nobody knows it's special until I open > the >>crystal. >>Beth > >>On 12/8/08, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>> Harry, > >>> A Braille watch is essentially analog print watch that you can > open up. It >>> has bumps where numbers normally go. It does take just a little > getting >>> used to if you want to feel the time, but it's not that hard > really. > >>> Joseph > >>> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 01:35:43PM -0800, Harry Hogue wrote: >>>>Does that apply to print watches, too? I know on braille watches > they go >>>> in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and > the short >>>> hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on > the 2 (or >>>> the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 > it's 3:15, >>>> etc. I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it > is "3:02, >>>> or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe > it's 3:04, >>>> etc. Does that help? > >>>>Thanks, > >>>>Harry > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi > sloose%40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina From lindsay3.14 at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 07:22:56 2008 From: lindsay3.14 at gmail.com (Lindsay Yazzolino) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 02:22:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <2b1de0a70812082129i3171e429m5b51ce7da1ea47ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> <513723.77666.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081209025505.GC36060@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4383d01d0812081913y3d174ffdv657605c0e94d0cd2@mail.gmail.com> <2b1de0a70812082129i3171e429m5b51ce7da1ea47ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I admit that I haven't been wearing my Braille watch as often as I usually do since I almost always have my accessible phone on hand, but sometimes regret not doing so in instances in which, say, my battery dies or I have to turn off my phone. Even so, I definitely prefer Braille to talking watches. After having used one since I was seven or so (I am now 20), I have found reading the time to be second nature. I think that we each have our own preference for Braille or talking watches, and I wouldn't go so frar as to say that talking watches are unprofessional (that is, if the time-checking is kept to a minimum and the rooster isn't constantly activated), but, personally, I like to be able to discreetly "glance" at my watch without others having to know. Plus, if I am in an excruciatingly boring meeting without anything else to do, at least I have the face of my watch to keep me occupied, and will not be tempted to subject those around me to hearing my talking watch go off every other minute. Anyway, just my thoughts. Lindsay On 12/9/08, david webster wrote: > Yah. I pretty much agree with everyone else on here. I have been > using a braille watch for many years now. I'm 34 and wehn I went to > schol in grade wchool there were no wuch things as talking watches. > If you were blind you wore a braille watch and back then it was one of > those old fashion ones whare you use to have to wind it. In fact I > still have one of which I bought from the the natonal center. Yah I > agree. thanks.bluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote: >> LMAO! You betcha. I don't want to look like a fool in front of >> sighted friends, so I feel that a Braille watch will do the trick when >> I want to blend in. Plus, nobody knows it's special until I open the >> crystal. >> Beth >> >> On 12/8/08, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>> Harry, >>> >>> A Braille watch is essentially analog print watch that you can open up. >>> It >>> has bumps where numbers normally go. It does take just a little getting >>> used to if you want to feel the time, but it's not that hard really. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 01:35:43PM -0800, Harry Hogue wrote: >>>>Does that apply to print watches, too? I know on braille watches they go >>>> in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and the >>>> short >>>> hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on the 2 (or >>>> the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 it's 3:15, >>>> etc. I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it is "3:02, >>>> or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe it's >>>> 3:04, >>>> etc. Does that help? >>>> >>>>Thanks, >>>> >>>>Harry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dwebster125%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lindsay3.14%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 08:05:14 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 00:05:14 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch In-Reply-To: <006901c959b4$631f49b0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <005c01c95971$6b6b7230$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <20081208210912.GE28827@yumi.bluecherry.net> <006901c959b4$631f49b0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <20081209080514.GB36463@yumi.bluecherry.net> Rania, most sighted people can't tell just looking at an analog clock either. You've got to estimate how far the hand is between the two numbers and do a little bit of mental addition. That takes longer than most sighted people are willing to spend reading the time on an analog clock or watch, so they don't do it. Joseph On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 11:12:43PM -0500, Rania wrote: > Ok I am finding that I am slowly able to find the hour and minute hands > and can tell if it is something like 12:15 but I am not understanding > ware the numbers like the 01 come in. How can you figure that out? > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 4:09 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch > > >> Rania, >> >> I spend a lot of time with a Judy Clock doing student teaching, so I >> have developed the ability to read minutes on an analog clock, but very >> few people ever try to read the minutes with any precision on an analog >> watch. You're more likely to get "It's about ten after one." And lo >> and behold, it is about ten after one in Oregon. 1:08 to be exact. >> >> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 03:13:21PM -0500, Rania wrote: >>> Hi I just got a braille watch. I have never had one before. It has >>> bin a long time since I learned how to read off of a braille clock so >>> I am finding reading the braille watch is a llittle difficult to >>> read. I can find the hour hand but I am having a hard time with the >>> minutes like when it should be 1:08. Any tips? >>> Thanks >>> Rania, _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 13:47:50 2008 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 07:47:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch References: <20081209051443.PELC14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <8BB74A7C1A5744E0BBACA76011E2C09D@Dezman> Talking watches are ok, but if part of our goals as blind people is to blend in especially in the professional world, I think learning to use a Braille watch is a worthwhile thing. I think the talking watch can sometimes be distracting and attention-drawing just as a cellphone going off in the middle of a meeting. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "hannah" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch > This is just my opinion; I think that when we use a cane, it shows that > we're blind or visually impaired, so I don't think it really makes a > difference because our cane already shows that we're different, so using a > talking watch probably wouldn't make that much more of a difference... I > don't mean to be rude or anything, but I don't think using a talking watch > will make people look like fools. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Beth >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 22:13:32 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reading a braille watch > >>LMAO! You betcha. I don't want to look like a fool in front of >>sighted friends, so I feel that a Braille watch will do the trick > when >>I want to blend in. Plus, nobody knows it's special until I open > the >>crystal. >>Beth > >>On 12/8/08, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>> Harry, > >>> A Braille watch is essentially analog print watch that you can > open up. It >>> has bumps where numbers normally go. It does take just a little > getting >>> used to if you want to feel the time, but it's not that hard > really. > >>> Joseph > >>> On Mon, Dec 08, 2008 at 01:35:43PM -0800, Harry Hogue wrote: >>>>Does that apply to print watches, too? I know on braille watches > they go >>>> in five minute incroments - so if the long hand is on the 12 and > the short >>>> hand is on the 3 it's three o'clock, or if the long hand's on > the 2 (or >>>> the equivalent) it's 3:10, or ifr they are together on the 3 > it's 3:15, >>>> etc. I would just guess it it was about in the middle that it > is "3:02, >>>> or "3:03," or if it's a little closer to the next number maybe > it's 3:04, >>>> etc. Does that help? > >>>>Thanks, > >>>>Harry > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi > sloose%40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From newmanrl at cox.net Wed Dec 10 07:18:35 2008 From: newmanrl at cox.net (Robert Newman) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:18:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB- 2009 Writing Contest for Youth and Adults Message-ID: NFB Writers' Division Writing contests For Both Youth And Adults The National Federation of the Blind Writers' Division wishes to announce our annual writing contests. The opening date for submissions in both the contests for youth and for adults is January 1st, with the closing on (Post Marked) April 1st. See all requirements below: Youth Writing Contest The NFB Writers' Division is hosting a Youth Writing Contest to promote Braille literacy and excellence in creative writing. Entries will be judged on creativity and quality of Braille. We are looking for creative writing, in the form of fiction and poetry. There is no charge for entering. This is a contest for students who use Braille. Entries must Be submitted in hand embossed Braille, either on a slate and stylus or on a Braille writer. No computer Braille entries will be considered. Submissions must be Brailled by the entrant. Elementary students (K-5) may submit contracted Braille, uncontracted Braille, or an acceptable combination of the two. Students in higher grades will be expected to submit stories or poetry in contracted Braille. There are six categories, as follows: Elementary Fiction; Elementary Poetry; Middle School Fiction; Middle School Poetry; High School Fiction; High School Poetry. Elementary is K-5. Middle School is 6-8. High School is 9-12. The contest begins January first, and ends, postmarked date April first. There will be three cash prizes for each of the six categories. First prize per contest is $25. Second prize is $15 and third prize is $5. Submissions for fiction may not exceed one thousand words. Poetry may not exceed twenty lines. Authors may submit multiple entries and all work must be original and unpublished. Each entrant must provide an identical print copy for possible publication. Entries must be accompanied by a cover sheet containing entrant's information: Name, address, phone, email, title of the entry, school and grade of entrant. Winners will be announced at our division meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in Detroit, Michigan. Send to Fred Wurtzel, 1212 N Foster, Lansing Michigan, 48912. Adult Writing Contest The NFB Writers' Division's writing contest of fiction short stories and poetry for adults will be open for submissions starting January 1st, closing Post Marked April 1st. Top prize for each contest is $100, second $50, and third $25. Winners will be announced at our division meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in Detroit, Michigan. Fiction: short stories can be up to 3,000 words and can be of any genre. All work must be original and previously unpublished. If you wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet with title of all entries, name, address, phone and email (if available). A second requirement , is please have your documents double spaced and if you are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be handwritten. The cost for submission of a single story is $5.00. You can send either a check or money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division. You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Tom Stevens address- 1203 S. Fairview Road, Columbia MO 65203. The second method is to email your writing and cover letter to cthls at earthlink.net And for payment for electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal by then URL http://www.nfb-writers-division.org Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Tom's address in choice one. Poetry: Entrants are invited to submit original poetry of up to 36 lines. If you wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet with title of all entries, name, address, phone and email (if available). A second requirement , is please have your documents double spaced and if you are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be handwritten. The cost is $5.00 for up to 3 poems and you can send either a check or money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division. You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Lori Stayer, 2704 Beach Drive, Merrick NY 11566. The second method is to email your writing and cover letter to LoriStay at aol.com And for payment for electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal by then URL http://www.nfb-writers-division.org Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Lori's address in choice one. President NFB Writers' Division Robert Leslie Newman Email- newmanrl at cox.net Division Website- Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org Robert Leslie Newman Email- newmanrl at cox.net THOUGHT PROVOKER Website- Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info From leadinglabbie at mpmail.net Wed Dec 10 07:57:07 2008 From: leadinglabbie at mpmail.net (Angie Matney) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:57:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] EEOC plans to rush regs for ADA Amendments Act Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: David Andrews Hello Dave, I received the following from the Justice for All listserv. I thought I would pass it on to you so that you could forward it to any NFB lists you deem appropriate. Angie * * * Immediate Action Necessary * * * Tell EEOC Not to Rush Through 11th Hour ADA Amendments Act Regulations AAPD staff have learned that the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has scheduled a Commission meeting for this Thursday, December 11 at 2 p.m. to discuss regulations interpreting the new ADA Amendments Act that was signed into law by President Bush on September 25. We have learned that one of the potential items for discussion is a new "Interim Final Rule" interpreting the new ADA Amendments Act that would take effect concurrent with the statute's effective date on January 1, 2009. If the Commission decides to issue an Interim Final Rule, that means that their regulations would take effect BEFORE anyone outside the commission has had an opportunity to review and comment on them. This is not acceptable. Typically, administrative agencies issue a notice of proposed rulemaking and give stakeholders an opportunity to comment on proposed regulations before they take effect. We believe that it is essential that the disability community and broader civil rights coalition that worked hard to get the ADA Amendments Act signed into law have an opportunity to see and comment on the new regulations before they take effect, and we are concerned that the Commission would try to rush through a final rule with no public comment at the end of an administration. Call today to let the EEOC Chairperson, Naomi Churchill Earp, and the Legal Counsel, Reed Russell, know that we want an opportunity to review the proposed regulations BEFORE they take effect. The ADA Amendments Act was the product of long negotiations and discussions with multiple stakeholders, and it is important that the regulations benefit from the same kind of broad-based input. The new law repudiates an overly narrow approach to the definition of disability that had been applied by the U.S. Supreme Court AND the EEOC, and we don't want to see the new regulations inadvertently create new problems for charging parties with disabilities and employers. Congress did not instruct EEOC to issue regulations before the new law's effective date, and there is no reason for the regulatory process to move forward without the typical notice and opportunity to comment. Our message to EEOC is simple: Don't issue a rule before we have an opportunity to be heard. Nothing about us without us. To reach the Chair's office, call 202 663-4002. To reach the Legal Counsel, call 202 663-4609. From r.polk1 at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 10 08:53:31 2008 From: r.polk1 at sbcglobal.net (Ruby Polk) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:53:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Perkins Brailler Message-ID: NEW PERKINS BRAILLER >From the Editor of the Matilda Ziegler Magazine for the blind. To All Readers: It's a sunny morning in Watertown, MA, with a temperature in the mid-60s and Mother Nature in the midst of her glorious autumnal show of color. I'm on the well-manicured campus of Perkins School for the Blind, where I have come for the introduction of a redesigned icon. Today would be the first opportunity for Perkins students- and me--to see the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler. I entered the stately Howe Building and made my way over squeaky-clean tile floors to the auditorium, where students were awaiting the start of the presentation. Standing in front of a large, round wooden table was David Morgan, general manager of Perkins Products, the entity responsible for re-thinking the brailler. On the table sat four of his brand-new creations, and David showed me the brailler's finer points as we discussed the design process. He explained that Perkins Products began conceptualizing an updated brailler about three years ago, but the "real work" started a year later, with intensive user research in places like India, Mexico, South Africa and Malawi. Researchers heard how dust and dirt can jam the machines in India, how teachers in Malawi have just one brailler to pass around an entire school, and how American users wished for something easier to carry. Perkins engineers paid close attention to these comments, and they responded by making their next-generation brailler more portable, with a lighter weight and a smaller size. This machine weighs about 25 percent, or three pounds, less, and its footprint has been reduced, with dimensions that are 12 inches long, 10 inches wide and six inches high. A new built-in handle in the base is easy to grip. The brailler's keys have been redesigned to require less force, so the machine is more comfortable to use over a longer period of time. Keys are now lower to the table surface, making it easier to position fingers comfortably. The color of the keys has been changed to white, which contrasts with the brailler's colorful body, aiding those with low vision. The new machine is less noisy, and it has a muted end-of-line bell. At the back of the brailler is a retractable reading rest, which holds the paper flat, making it easier to proofread. Located on the front of the machine, margin guides are easier to grasp and hold. These are now easily accessible, and do not require reaching around to the back. The paper-feed knobs have a flatter shape, making them easier to hold and turn. This brailler takes paper up to 8-1/2 inches wide and 14 inches long. I'm sure braillists will appreciate these many improvements, but I'm betting that the most popular feature will be the easy-erase button. Simply depressing one key deletes an incorrect cell, letting the user braille over the original one. As you might expect, the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler, its official name, looks and feels very different from the classic version, which Perkins will continue to sell. Although the original design is cherished, it went unchanged for 57 years, and Perkins thought they were losing a lot of young people with it--that it wasn't quite "cool enough," according to David. Hip or not, the engineers saw no need to do a complete redesign, he said. They kept everything that was great about the original and put it in new packaging, making the machine lighter and more portable. Those familiar with the classic know it is constructed of heavy-duty metal. The next- generation brailler still has mostly all-metal construction inside, and the same embossing mechanisms, but the exterior shell is made of ABS plastic. This polycarbonate is a high-impact engineered plastic, like that used on aircraft. Perkins Products believes this plastic will prove to be more durable. It certainly is more colorful, as the brailler's exterior housing comes in a vivid shade similar to sky blue. This color, known as APH blue, will be the only one available until the spring, when there will be two more color choices: raspberry and midnight blue. How did the color and initials of American Printing House for the Blind end up on a Perkins product? David explained that APH actually had started designing its own brailler a few years ago. After learning that Perkins was already redesigning the classic brailler, APH decided to shelve its project. They joined forces with the school and supported Perkins's redesign by underwriting much of the research and development costs. In exchange for the Printing House's contribution, the letters a p and h were added to the brailler's name, and APH blue was the first color to be offered. They also have exclusive distribution rights within the United States and U.S. territories for the first six months of the product launch. Buyers using Federal Quota Funds will have to make their purchases through APH. By spring 2009, however, Perkins Products expects that all the resellers who carried its braillers in the past will offer the new one. The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler came on the United States market in October at a price of $650, which, refreshingly, is $40 less than the classic. It has a warranty of one year on parts and labor. International orders will be accepted after the first of the year. For developing countries with lower and middle incomes, purchase subsidies will be available, as they are for the classic model. Some of the next-generation braillers will undoubtedly end up back in the country where they were made. While the components are mostly American, some parts are sourced from southeast Asia. Final assembly takes place in India at an ISO 9001 factory, which meets U.S. standards, and about 80 percent of its workers have some kind of disability. Perkins Products has developed a marketing strategy for this brailler, the centerpiece of which is a special Web site. Perkinsbrailler.org features a song written especially for the brailler by blind recording artist Raul Midon. His "Next Generation" is a very catchy tune, and if you like it enough, you can even download a ringtone to your cell phone. After the marketing presentation was concluded, David left the Howe Building with me. I asked him what the next project is for Perkins Products, and found out that an electric version of the redesigned brailler will be coming to market in a year or so. I then asked how the introduction has been going for this brailler. David said he's pleased that the machine has generated a great deal of attention, and thinks that sales will be stimulated as word gets out. With obvious pride, he mentioned that professionals in the blindness field have called the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler "revolutionary." As we said our goodbyes, David added a final thought: "If it builds interest and excitement for braille, then it's done its job." The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler certainly is a great present for Louis Braille's 200th birthday in January-or this month it could even be a nice holiday gift for yourself or someone very special. From gwunder at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 09:08:34 2008 From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:08:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: McCarthy, Jim Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Diane McGeorge E-mail Reminder-Washington Seminar Fellow Federationists: The following message comes from Diane McGeorge who organizes much of the logistics of Washington Seminar. The time is growing closer than you might think. Our 2009 Washington Seminar will run from Sunday, February 8 to Wednesday, February 11. "Please get your reservations in as soon as possible." Our deadline for hotel reservations is January 5, 2009, which is only about one month off. Following is the information which I need to have to assure you of a room at the Holiday Inn. The address of the Holiday Inn Capitol is 550 C Street SW, Washington, DC 20024. 1. First of all I will need to have the names of the persons in the room. Please spell the first and last name of each person if you make the reservation by phone. You may do so by calling: (303) 778-1130, extension 219, or email (see below); and 2. I will need to have your arrival date and departure date. If people are sharing the room and their arrival and departure dates are different from yours, please be sure to indicate that; and 3. I will need to know if you wish a smoking or a non-smoking room. Also, if you have any special requirements, please advise. For example, if you require an accessible room, please include that information. If you wish to have a roll-away bed in the room, please let me know. If you request a roll-away bed, there will be an additional $15 charge per night; and 4. If you make your reservation by phone, and if you have an e-mail address, please leave that address so that we may send you confirmation that your reservation was received and processed. If you have no e-mail address, then please leave a telephone number so that I may call you back with a confirmation. You may make your reservations by e-mail by sending your request to Lisa Bonderson. Lisa's address is: lbonderson at cocenter.org. Either Lisa or I will send you a confirmation. The hotel rates are $154 per night for single, double, triple, or quad. There is an additional 14.5% hotel tax each night. When you check in you must be prepared to cover at least the first night of your stay with either a credit card or check; and then arrange to pay the balance by presenting a credit card or writing a check for the remainder of the cost. If state delegations will be paying for members with one check or one credit card, please advise Ed Cruz in the Holiday Inn Capitol accounting department prior to your arrival and he will make special arrangements for your delegation. It is also very advisable to supply to Mr. Cruz a list of the names of persons your delegation may plan to cover. It would also be advisable for you to supply me with the same list prior to arrival so that we will all be on the same page and this will lessen problems. Mr. Cruz has always been very helpful. Remember please, the deadline is January 5, 2009. There will be a number of special meetings during the seminar and you will want to watch the NFB Website for special announcements. The Great Gathering-In meeting will be held on Sunday, February 8, at 5 p.m. You certainly don't want to miss that. I hope this answers all of your questions. I look forward to seeing all of you in D.C. in February. Have a blessed holiday season. Diane McGeorge DM/wb From gwunder at earthlink.net Wed Dec 10 09:09:14 2008 From: gwunder at earthlink.net (Gary Wunder) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:09:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Test at Washington Seminar Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Braille Certification To: Louise Walch Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Braille Test at Washington Seminar Dear NFB State Presidents, Please find attached a flyer announcing that testing for the National Certification in Literary Braille will be held on the Saturday prior to our Washington Seminar. Please pass this information along to your membership and others you think might be interested. Thanks in advance. -Louise Louise G. Walch NBPCB Coordinator 210-464-6144 Braille at nbpcb.org www.nbpcb.org ----- Braille Test at Washington Seminar Feb 7, 2009 THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) As you may be aware, the National Literary Braille Competency Test (NLBCT) of the National Library Service (NLS) has been transferred to the administration of the National Blindness Professional Certification Board (NBPCB). With the NLBCT as its cornerstone, the NBPCB has established the National Certification in Literary Braille (NCLB), which is a complete professional credential that requires recertification on a five year cycle. Individuals who were certified with the NLBCT prior to 2006 will need to retest through the NBPCB; however, the initial fee may be waived if the applicant can show proof of original NLBCT credential. The NCLB is currently the only nationally recognized certification in literary Braille. The examination has not been substantially changed from its earlier version once administered by the NLS, however a five year recertification requirement has been instituted in the interest of maintaining high standards. The exam is not aimed at transcribers. Rather, it is a valid test of a person's ability to competently read, write, and understand contracted, literary Braille, and is being targeted to all individuals who teach Braille professionally, and/or those seeking to be credentialed in this area. The next scheduled exam open for certification and recertification in 2009 is: Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009 Time: 8:00am-5:00pm (Doors close 8:30am) Location: Holiday Inn Capitol (Columbia II) 550 C Street SW Washington, DC 20024 Cost: $250 combined application/testing fee Deadline: Sunday, January 4, 2009 (or $275 late registration January 5-25) Subsequent NCLB examinations will be convened wherever an appropriate venue can be procured, and sufficient applicant numbers make it possible. Please contact the NBPCB for more details. To apply online go to: http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/application/ or to download the NCLB Candidate Guidelines please visit: http://www.nbpcb.org/nclb/ For additional information please visit the NBPCB website at: www.nbpcb.org, call the NBPCB office at (318) 257-4554, or contact Louise Walch, NBPCB Coordinator, at: braille at nbpcb.org. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Flyer NCLB DC1.doc Type: application/msword Size: 31744 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Wed Dec 10 10:21:53 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 04:21:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod In-Reply-To: References: <493c743e.0c17400a.2118.fffff8e8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: The Apple Nano 4th Generation along with the most recent version of iTunes will produce speech on the ipod. You will also need the most recent versions of JAWS or Window-Eyes to get this stuff to work best. iTunes generates speech from your computer and transfers it to the Nano for playback, apparently. Dave At 08:50 PM 12/7/2008, you wrote: >There is a new talking iPod?! I want it. I know you can use itunes >with Jaws, but it doesn't work that well. I just use Rhapsody and that >works a lot better. For my ipod I just use Rock Box and have voices >installed. However, if there is a talking ipod, I would love to hear >about it. >~Fern > >On 12/7/08, Carrie Gilmer wrote: > > Can anyone answer me with expereinces to forward back to this mom about the > > current access to iTunes and new talking ipod? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children > > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind > > NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 > > Home Phone: 763-784-8590 > > carrie.gilmer at gmail.com > > www.nfb.org/nopbc > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:blindkid-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > > Behalf Of Barbara.Mathews at sce.com > > Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 11:01 AM > > To: NFBnet Blind Kid Mailing List,(for parents of blind children) > > Subject: [blindkid] iTunes/Talking iPod > > > > > > Has anyone (or has anyone's child) had success using iTunes with JAWS, or > > using the new talking iPod? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > blindkid mailing list > > blindkid at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > blindkid: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fantasyfanatic01%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.15/1835 - Release Date: >12/7/2008 4:56 PM From fantasyfanatic01 at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 13:56:12 2008 From: fantasyfanatic01 at gmail.com (Franandah Damstra) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 08:56:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB- 2009 Writing Contest for Youth and Adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome! I love writing! Maybe I'll enter one of my fanfictions... On 12/10/08, Robert Newman wrote: > > NFB Writers' Division Writing contests For Both Youth And Adults > > The National Federation of the Blind Writers' Division wishes to > announce our annual writing contests. The opening date for > submissions in both the contests for youth and for adults is January > 1st, with the closing on (Post Marked) April 1st. See all requirements > below: > > Youth Writing Contest > > The NFB Writers' Division is hosting a Youth Writing Contest to > promote Braille literacy and excellence in creative writing. Entries > will be judged on creativity and quality of Braille. We are looking > for creative writing, in the form of fiction and poetry. There is no > charge for entering. > > This is a contest for students who use Braille. Entries must Be > submitted in hand embossed Braille, either on a slate and stylus or > on a Braille writer. No computer Braille entries will be considered. > Submissions must be Brailled by the entrant. Elementary students > (K-5) may submit contracted Braille, uncontracted Braille, or an > acceptable combination of the two. Students in higher grades will be > expected to submit stories or poetry in contracted Braille. > > There are six categories, as follows: Elementary Fiction; Elementary > Poetry; Middle School Fiction; Middle School Poetry; High School > Fiction; High School Poetry. Elementary is K-5. Middle School is 6-8. > High School is 9-12. > > The contest begins January first, and ends, postmarked date April > first. There will be three cash prizes for each of the six > categories. First prize per contest is $25. Second prize is $15 and > third prize is $5. Submissions for fiction may not exceed one > thousand words. Poetry may not exceed twenty lines. Authors may > submit multiple entries and all work must be original and unpublished. > > Each entrant must provide an identical print copy for possible publication. > > Entries must be accompanied by a cover sheet containing entrant's > information: Name, address, phone, email, title of the entry, school > and grade of entrant. Winners will be announced at our division > meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in Detroit, > Michigan. > > Send to Fred Wurtzel, 1212 N Foster, Lansing Michigan, 48912. > > Adult Writing Contest > > The NFB Writers' Division's writing contest of fiction short stories > and poetry for adults will be open for submissions starting January > 1st, closing Post Marked April 1st. Top prize for each contest is > $100, second $50, and third $25. Winners will be announced at our > division meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in > Detroit, Michigan. > > Fiction: short stories can be up to 3,000 words and can be of any > genre. All work must be original and previously unpublished. If you > wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet with title of > all entries, name, address, phone and email (if available). A second > requirement , is please have your documents double spaced and if you > are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be handwritten. The cost for > submission of a single story is $5.00. You can send either a check or > money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division. > > You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method > of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Tom > Stevens address- 1203 S. Fairview Road, Columbia MO 65203. The second > method is to email your writing and cover letter to > cthls at earthlink.net And for payment for > electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal > by then URL > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org > Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Tom's address in choice one. > > Poetry: Entrants are invited to submit original poetry of up to 36 > lines. If you wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet > with title of all entries, name, address, phone and email (if > available). A second requirement , is please have your documents > double spaced and if you are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be > handwritten. The cost is $5.00 for up to 3 poems and you can send > either a check or money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division. > > You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method > of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Lori > Stayer, 2704 Beach Drive, Merrick NY 11566. > > The second method is to email your writing and cover letter to > LoriStay at aol.com And for payment for > electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal > by then URL > http://www.nfb-writers-division.org > Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Lori's address in choice one. > > President NFB Writers' Division > Robert Leslie Newman > Email- newmanrl at cox.net > Division Website- > Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org > Robert Leslie Newman > Email- newmanrl at cox.net > THOUGHT PROVOKER Website- > Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fantasyfanatic01%40gmail.com > From aguimaraes at nbp.org Wed Dec 10 16:11:07 2008 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:11:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Perkins Brailler References: Message-ID: <003401c95ae1$e8f93f40$3c64a8c0@nbp2.local> The major drawback of the brailler is that *This brailler takes paper up to 8-1/2 inches wide and 14 inches long.* good luck doing long math problems on one! Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ruby Polk (by way of David Andrews)" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 3:53 AM Subject: [nabs-l] New Perkins Brailler > NEW PERKINS BRAILLER > > >From the Editor of the Matilda Ziegler Magazine for the blind. > > To All Readers: > > It's a sunny morning in Watertown, MA, with a temperature in the mid-60s > and > Mother Nature in the midst of her glorious autumnal show of color. I'm on > the well-manicured campus of Perkins School for the Blind, where I have > come > for the introduction of a redesigned icon. > > Today would be the first opportunity for Perkins students- and me--to see > the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler. > > I entered the stately Howe Building and made my way over squeaky-clean > tile > floors to the auditorium, where students were awaiting the start of the > presentation. > > Standing in front of a large, round wooden table was David Morgan, general > manager of Perkins Products, the entity responsible for re-thinking the > brailler. On the table sat four of his brand-new creations, and David > showed me the brailler's finer points as we discussed the design process. > > He explained that Perkins Products began conceptualizing an updated > brailler > about three years ago, but the "real work" started a year later, with > intensive user research in places like India, Mexico, South Africa and > Malawi. Researchers heard how dust and dirt can jam the machines in > India, > how teachers in Malawi have just one brailler to pass around an entire > school, and how American users wished for something easier to carry. > > Perkins engineers paid close attention to these comments, and they > responded > by making their next-generation brailler more portable, with a lighter > weight and a smaller size. This machine weighs about 25 percent, or three > pounds, less, and its footprint has been reduced, with dimensions that are > 12 inches long, 10 inches wide and six inches high. A new built-in handle > in the base is easy to grip. The brailler's keys have been redesigned to > require less force, so the machine is more comfortable to use over a > longer > period of time. Keys are now lower to the table surface, making it easier > to position fingers comfortably. > > The color of the keys has been changed to white, which contrasts with the > brailler's colorful body, aiding those with low vision. The new machine > is > less noisy, and it has a muted end-of-line bell. At the back of the > brailler is a retractable reading rest, which holds the paper flat, making > it easier to proofread. Located on the front of the machine, margin > guides > are easier to grasp and hold. These are now easily accessible, and do not > require reaching around to the back. The paper-feed knobs have a flatter > shape, making them easier to hold and turn. This brailler takes paper up > to > 8-1/2 inches wide and 14 inches long. > > I'm sure braillists will appreciate these many improvements, but I'm > betting > that the most popular feature will be the easy-erase button. Simply > depressing one key deletes an incorrect cell, letting the user braille > over > the original one. > > As you might expect, the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler, its > official > name, looks and feels very different from the classic version, which > Perkins > will continue to sell. > > Although the original design is cherished, it went unchanged for 57 years, > and Perkins thought they were losing a lot of young people with it--that > it > wasn't quite "cool enough," according to David. Hip or not, the engineers > saw no need to do a complete redesign, he said. They kept everything that > was great about the original and put it in new packaging, making the > machine > lighter and more portable. > > Those familiar with the classic know it is constructed of heavy-duty > metal. > The next- generation brailler still has mostly all-metal construction > inside, and the same embossing mechanisms, but the exterior shell is made > of > ABS plastic. This polycarbonate is a high-impact engineered plastic, like > that used on aircraft. Perkins Products believes this plastic will prove > to > be more durable. > > It certainly is more colorful, as the brailler's exterior housing comes in > a > vivid shade similar to sky blue. > > This color, known as APH blue, will be the only one available until the > spring, when there will be two more color choices: raspberry and midnight > blue. > > How did the color and initials of American Printing House for the Blind > end > up on a Perkins product? David explained that APH actually had started > designing its own brailler a few years ago. After learning that Perkins > was > already redesigning the classic brailler, APH decided to shelve its > project. > They joined forces with the school and supported Perkins's redesign by > underwriting much of the research and development costs. > > In exchange for the Printing House's contribution, the letters a p and h > were added to the brailler's name, and APH blue was the first color to be > offered. They also have exclusive distribution rights within the United > States and U.S. territories for the first six months of the product > launch. > Buyers using Federal Quota Funds will have to make their purchases through > APH. By spring 2009, however, Perkins Products expects that all the > resellers who carried its braillers in the past will offer the new one. > > The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler came on the United States market > in > October at a price of $650, which, refreshingly, is $40 less than the > classic. It has a warranty of one year on parts and labor. International > orders will be accepted after the first of the year. For developing > countries with lower and middle incomes, purchase subsidies will be > available, as they are for the classic model. > > Some of the next-generation braillers will undoubtedly end up back in the > country where they were made. While the components are mostly American, > some parts are sourced from southeast Asia. Final assembly takes place in > India at an ISO 9001 factory, which meets U.S. standards, and about 80 > percent of its workers have some kind of disability. > > Perkins Products has developed a marketing strategy for this brailler, the > centerpiece of which is a special Web site. Perkinsbrailler.org features > a > song written especially for the brailler by blind recording artist Raul > Midon. His "Next Generation" is a very catchy tune, and if you like it > enough, you can even download a ringtone to your cell phone. > > After the marketing presentation was concluded, David left the Howe > Building > with me. I asked him what the next project is for Perkins Products, and > found out that an electric version of the redesigned brailler will be > coming > to market in a year or so. > > I then asked how the introduction has been going for this brailler. David > said he's pleased that the machine has generated a great deal of > attention, > and thinks that sales will be stimulated as word gets out. > > With obvious pride, he mentioned that professionals in the blindness field > have called the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler "revolutionary." As > we > said our goodbyes, David added a final thought: "If it builds interest and > excitement for braille, then it's done its job." > > The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler certainly is a great present for > Louis Braille's 200th birthday in January-or this month it could even be a > nice holiday gift for yourself or someone very special. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org > From liamskitten at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 17:03:33 2008 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Linda Stover) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:03:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB- 2009 Writing Contest for Youth and Adults In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7949e5e20812100903k7371fe6bi5911b7031d58511e@mail.gmail.com> Franandah, >From what I'm seeing from the E-mail, it can't be fanfiction, since fanfiction is, by its very nature, a story about someone else's characters. This has to be original fiction, with your own characters and setting. It'd be nice if fanfiction were allowed though *grin*! Hope this helps clarify things. Courtney On 12/10/08, Franandah Damstra wrote: > Awesome! I love writing! Maybe I'll enter one of my fanfictions... > > On 12/10/08, Robert Newman wrote: >> >> NFB Writers' Division Writing contests For Both Youth And Adults >> >> The National Federation of the Blind Writers' Division wishes to >> announce our annual writing contests. The opening date for >> submissions in both the contests for youth and for adults is January >> 1st, with the closing on (Post Marked) April 1st. See all requirements >> below: >> >> Youth Writing Contest >> >> The NFB Writers' Division is hosting a Youth Writing Contest to >> promote Braille literacy and excellence in creative writing. Entries >> will be judged on creativity and quality of Braille. We are looking >> for creative writing, in the form of fiction and poetry. There is no >> charge for entering. >> >> This is a contest for students who use Braille. Entries must Be >> submitted in hand embossed Braille, either on a slate and stylus or >> on a Braille writer. No computer Braille entries will be considered. >> Submissions must be Brailled by the entrant. Elementary students >> (K-5) may submit contracted Braille, uncontracted Braille, or an >> acceptable combination of the two. Students in higher grades will be >> expected to submit stories or poetry in contracted Braille. >> >> There are six categories, as follows: Elementary Fiction; Elementary >> Poetry; Middle School Fiction; Middle School Poetry; High School >> Fiction; High School Poetry. Elementary is K-5. Middle School is 6-8. >> High School is 9-12. >> >> The contest begins January first, and ends, postmarked date April >> first. There will be three cash prizes for each of the six >> categories. First prize per contest is $25. Second prize is $15 and >> third prize is $5. Submissions for fiction may not exceed one >> thousand words. Poetry may not exceed twenty lines. Authors may >> submit multiple entries and all work must be original and unpublished. >> >> Each entrant must provide an identical print copy for possible >> publication. >> >> Entries must be accompanied by a cover sheet containing entrant's >> information: Name, address, phone, email, title of the entry, school >> and grade of entrant. Winners will be announced at our division >> meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in Detroit, >> Michigan. >> >> Send to Fred Wurtzel, 1212 N Foster, Lansing Michigan, 48912. >> >> Adult Writing Contest >> >> The NFB Writers' Division's writing contest of fiction short stories >> and poetry for adults will be open for submissions starting January >> 1st, closing Post Marked April 1st. Top prize for each contest is >> $100, second $50, and third $25. Winners will be announced at our >> division meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in >> Detroit, Michigan. >> >> Fiction: short stories can be up to 3,000 words and can be of any >> genre. All work must be original and previously unpublished. If you >> wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet with title of >> all entries, name, address, phone and email (if available). A second >> requirement , is please have your documents double spaced and if you >> are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be handwritten. The cost for >> submission of a single story is $5.00. You can send either a check or >> money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division. >> >> You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method >> of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Tom >> Stevens address- 1203 S. Fairview Road, Columbia MO 65203. The second >> method is to email your writing and cover letter to >> cthls at earthlink.net And for payment for >> electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal >> by then URL >> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org >> Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Tom's address in choice one. >> >> Poetry: Entrants are invited to submit original poetry of up to 36 >> lines. If you wish to submit- You are required to send a cover sheet >> with title of all entries, name, address, phone and email (if >> available). A second requirement , is please have your documents >> double spaced and if you are sending it hardcopy, it cannot be >> handwritten. The cost is $5.00 for up to 3 poems and you can send >> either a check or money order made out to the NFB Writers' Division. >> >> You have two choices for submission: First is the traditional method >> of sending hardcopy and check, and if you do so, send it to Lori >> Stayer, 2704 Beach Drive, Merrick NY 11566. >> >> The second method is to email your writing and cover letter to >> LoriStay at aol.com And for payment for >> electronic submissions check our web site and see if we have PayPal >> by then URL >> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org >> Or, if you need to snail-mail the check, use Lori's address in choice one. >> >> President NFB Writers' Division >> Robert Leslie Newman >> Email- newmanrl at cox.net >> Division Website- >> Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org >> Robert Leslie Newman >> Email- newmanrl at cox.net >> THOUGHT PROVOKER Website- >> Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fantasyfanatic01%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 10 17:11:39 2008 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Dave Wright) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:11:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Portable computing Solutions from HandyTech North America Message-ID: <000801c95aea$604791c0$80f110ac@david6a79a76fb> Hello all, Handy Tech North America is pleased to now offer the MSI Wind sub Net Book along with the below software options from Serotek. Although the computer itself has a tiny footprint with only a 10 inch screen, the keyboard to the contrary doesn't have the feeling that you are trying to mash your fingers into some weird unnatural feeling little space. The keyboard also has a full row of function keys so no having to remember some strange command structure. We also high mark the Tab, enter, insert, F4, F8 and F12 keys for quick and efficient keyboard orientation. The letters F and J already have tactile markings. The MSI Wind comes with a 1.6ghz single core processor, 160 GB hard drive, 1 gb of memory, wireless network adaptor, 4 USB ports, integrated Real Tech Ethernet and audio adaptors, 6 cell lithium ion battery and is running Windows XP home. The cost of the MSI Wind itself is: $499.00 Handy Tech North America will High Mark, install, custom configure your new mobile marvel so all you have to do is turn it on and go. We will also install the Serotek RIM host so if you experience problems one of our talented technical support staff can remote into your computer and help resolve any problems you might be experiencing. Choose from one of the following System access software options and enjoy the ultimate in mobile computing fun and productivity. Option 1. MSI Wind Net Book, System Access Mobile and 1 year of System Access network. We'll also throw in a 20 gb U3 smart drive for no charge making it possible for you to access computers that don't already have screen readers installed not to mention the unparalleled internet experience for which system Access is well known. Unit cost: $1,127.00 Option 2. MSI Wind, month to month software as a service plan. This gives you a great Sub Net Book computer, system Access screen reader, System Access Network, mobility with the u3 smart drive and the human sounding Neo Speech engine. Unit cost: $499.00 for the MSI Wind and $39.99 per month for the software as a service no obligation walk away plan. Option 3. MSI Wind, 48 month software as a service buyout plan. This gives you a great Sub Net Book computer, system Access screen reader, System Access Network, mobility with the u3 smart drive and the human sounding Neo Speech engine. Unit cost: $499.00 for the MSI Wind and $24.99 per month for the software as a service 48 month buyout plan. Note that there is a $25 set-up fee for software as a service in addition to the first month payment the MSI Wind has a 1 year manufacturer warranty with a 2 year extended warranty option and all sales are final. If you are interested in any of the above exciting mobile computing packages please call: 651-636-5184 Or send e-mail to: sales at handytech.us Access anywhere has never been more affordable! Best Regards: David Wright Email: dwrigh6 at gmail.com Mobile: (832)518-0707 Webpage: http://www.knfbreader.com From startrekcafe at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 23:13:21 2008 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:13:21 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Editing Audio Tracks Message-ID: <21CB4CAC8DE14B81A75AEEECC89885F5@marvinPC> Hi. well, got some cds, that i had from one of my relatives, then burned to a cd and converted to mp3. now, tried editing the track information, so ti would say the track name, artist, album, and not just unknown artist, etc. well will paste a message below. could not edit the track information. and ripped a audio cd, and got jaws 10, and windows media 11. and it gave me the information, when i was editing it in windows explorer. and the track, artist, album, cane up. so, can any one help. another question is, is there any software, which can repair corrupted or damaged mp3 files, as do not have the original cd, any more. only the ripped mp3 copy. a few tracks, muffled, or warped. and here's the message. Hi. well, went to my track in windows media player, stopped the file, as loaded it from windows explorer. well, went to the properties tab, went to content. tried to edit the information, but it would not let me change any thing, like the title , artist, album. so how do i get to edit my audio tracks, as mp3, instead of saying unknown artist? can you help. cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One From harryhogue at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 02:26:43 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation Message-ID: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone,   I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide.   I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc.  What have you guys done who have graduated?  As I understand it you walk up  a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side.  Thoughts?   P.S.  Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish.   Harry From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 02:43:35 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:35 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Harry, When I graduated I practiced first a few days before so I would have an idea of how the route was set up and then I could do it on my own. However, I had a small graduation for just my small college, so that may not work if you're in a general university graduation. Maybe talk to the registrar and see if you can practice beforehand. You can also try asking someone you know who is graduating to be your guide. Amusingly, at our graduation the people working were nervous because I guess the lighting near the steps to go off the stage wasn't very good, and they were afraid people would fall off the stage! I think overall I was at an advantage! Arielle On 12/11/08, Harry Hogue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to > make arrangements for a guide. > > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking > across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys > done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the > person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the > other side. Thoughts? > > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the > student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they > wish. > > Harry > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From hjones711 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 02:45:53 2008 From: hjones711 at gmail.com (hannah jones) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:45:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49407EE1.6090809@gmail.com> i walked by myself at mine. made a dumb mistake but i did it. Harry Hogue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide. > > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts? > > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish. > > Harry > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.com > > From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 11 02:46:54 2008 From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:46:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:26:43 -0800> From: harryhogue at yahoo.com> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org> Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation> > Hello everyone,> > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide.> > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts?> > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish.> > Harry> _______________________________________________> nabs-l mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Suspicious message? There’s an alert for that. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008 From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 02:51:22 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:51:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812101851i745bce41l3b7c50ef366beda5@mail.gmail.com> I sat at one side of the stage during my junior college graduation, then walked across the stage to sit at another side of the stage in a chair located there. I think the disabilities office helped with that. I don't see why you couldn't just call the registrar's office and arrange for a guide and a special place to sit. Good ideas, Harry.Beth On 12/10/08, Harry Hogue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to > make arrangements for a guide. > > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking > across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys > done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the > person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the > other side. Thoughts? > > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the > student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they > wish. > > Harry > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Thu Dec 11 04:17:17 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:17:17 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation Message-ID: <20081211041627.SYMH14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> What about high school graduations? Any suggestions on how a person who's blind or visually impaired could prepare for that? > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:35 +1100 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation >Hi Harry, >When I graduated I practiced first a few days before so I would have >an idea of how the route was set up and then I could do it on my own. >However, I had a small graduation for just my small college, so that >may not work if you're in a general university graduation. Maybe talk >to the registrar and see if you can practice beforehand. You can also >try asking someone you know who is graduating to be your guide. >Amusingly, at our graduation the people working were nervous because I >guess the lighting near the steps to go off the stage wasn't very >good, and they were afraid people would fall off the stage! I think >overall I was at an advantage! >Arielle >On 12/11/08, Harry Hogue wrote: >> Hello everyone, >> I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to >> make arrangements for a guide. >> I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking >> across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys >> done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the >> person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the >> other side. Thoughts? >> P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the >> student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they >> wish. >> Harry >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71 %40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 11 04:49:16 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:49:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Harry, For high school, I just had the person ahead of me walk me to the stairs (ramp in your case) and then they walked across and I just went after them. I'd practiced the day of though cause we'd had a rehearsal as a group. Sometimes the people giving you the diploma might direct you, though this didn't happen in my case. The person ahead of me just waited for me on the other side of the stage and then we walked back to our seats together. I didn't know this person beforehand but it wasn't too difficult to ask them. Good luck, and congratulations on your grad. Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Harry Hogue Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation Hello everyone,   I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide.   I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc.  What have you guys done who have graduated?  As I understand it you walk up  a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side.  Thoughts?   P.S.  Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish.   Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From terri.rupp at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 06:08:30 2008 From: terri.rupp at gmail.com (Terri Rupp) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:08:30 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Washington Seminar roommate search Message-ID: I recently received a message from the NFB of New Mexico President telling me that a student from her state needs roommate for Washington Seminar. His name is Wesley Peters and will be arriving on Saturday February 7th, and leaving Wednesday February 11th. If anyone is interested, please contact me directly offlist. Warmest Wishes, Terri Rupp, President National Association of Blind Students (707)-567-3019 terri.rupp at gmail.com From noreply at serotek.com Thu Dec 11 08:34:12 2008 From: noreply at serotek.com (Serotek Announcements) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:34:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility Anywhere Braille Display Petition Message-ID: A petition has been started by George McDermith at http://www.petitiononline.com/brldis/petition.html asking Braille display manufacturers to base their drivers on the human interface protocol, found on all Windows computers. Such a design philosophy will ensure that users can be certain of having support for their Braille display on any computer, not just one which has been custom-configured for such access, and will eliminate the need to depend on specific screen reader drivers. The text of the petition reads as follows: "To: Braille display manufacturers We, the undersigned, who are Braille display users, friends and family of Braille display users, and teachers of the blind, *: Believe that accessibility to information for the blind on a par with their sighted piers is a right. Believe that due to this right, and due to the cost of Braille displays, accessing Braille through the use of Braille displays should not be limited by the type of screen reading solution used by the blind. *: Strongly request that all manufacturers of Braille displays cease basing the drivers of their Braille displays off of particular screen reader drivers, but rather base all Braille display drivers off of the Human User Interface Protocol, which can be found on all Windows computers. *: This will allow true portability and equal access to information for the blind, as they will be able to use their display with any computer. This will create greater competition in the market for the best Braille display to stand out, grant greater literacy in Braille through greater access to electronic Braille books and other materials, and support the right of all blind people to have accessibility anywhere." To add your support to this worthy cause, visit the petition web page at http://www.petitiononline.com/brldis/petition.html The Serotek Team From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 12:12:31 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:12:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation References: <20081211041627.SYMH14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <002801c95b89$be5fdb10$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> I had someone there to guide me across the platform but I also worked on it before the rehersel as well. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "hannah" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation > What about high school graduations? Any suggestions on how a person who's > blind or visually impaired could prepare for that? > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Arielle Silverman" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:35 +1100 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation > >>Hi Harry, > >>When I graduated I practiced first a few days before so I would > have >>an idea of how the route was set up and then I could do it on my > own. >>However, I had a small graduation for just my small college, so > that >>may not work if you're in a general university graduation. Maybe > talk >>to the registrar and see if you can practice beforehand. You can > also >>try asking someone you know who is graduating to be your guide. > >>Amusingly, at our graduation the people working were nervous > because I >>guess the lighting near the steps to go off the stage wasn't very >>good, and they were afraid people would fall off the stage! I > think >>overall I was at an advantage! > >>Arielle > >>On 12/11/08, Harry Hogue wrote: >>> Hello everyone, > >>> I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's > office to >>> make arrangements for a guide. > >>> I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about > walking >>> across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What > have you guys >>> done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a > ramp, to the >>> person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk > down the >>> other side. Thoughts? > >>> P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, > but that the >>> student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a > guide if they >>> wish. > >>> Harry >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71 > %40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From liz.bottner at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 14:43:08 2008 From: liz.bottner at gmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:43:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <494126ef.0c2d400a.52ff.ffffb2c3@mx.google.com> Hey Harry, When I graduated both high school and college, I walked across the stage totally independently with my guide dog. I made it very clear that if at all possible, I wanted to walk across by myself. During my college graduation, someone walked behind me in the aisle of seats, just to make sure I was going the right way, and then that person stopped at the stage, allowing me to go up completely on my own, where I shook hands with the people I needed to shake hands with and received my diploma cover. The person who was assisting me went around backstage, I think, and met me at the other side, once I came down the stairs, to help make sure I got back to the correct seat. I don't remember that much about my high school graduation, sorry! Haha! Take care, Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com From harryhogue at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 14:48:54 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:48:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <106962.6711.qm@web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone,   Thanks for the suggestions.  I'm going to go by the registrar's office today and see what they say/what has been done in the past (I believe one person did it on his own, an another had a guide).   I'll let you guys know! Harry --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: From: Sarah Jevnikar Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 10:49 PM Hi Harry, For high school, I just had the person ahead of me walk me to the stairs (ramp in your case) and then they walked across and I just went after them. I'd practiced the day of though cause we'd had a rehearsal as a group. Sometimes the people giving you the diploma might direct you, though this didn't happen in my case. The person ahead of me just waited for me on the other side of the stage and then we walked back to our seats together. I didn't know this person beforehand but it wasn't too difficult to ask them. Good luck, and congratulations on your grad. Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Harry Hogue Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation Hello everyone,   I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide.   I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc.  What have you guys done who have graduated?  As I understand it you walk up  a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side.  Thoughts?   P.S.  Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish.   Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com From passionflower505 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 16:02:47 2008 From: passionflower505 at yahoo.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:02:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad Message-ID: <19528.72355.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I really want to study abroad next year. I was curious about how those of you who have studied abroad liked it, and if there were difficulties that you would not have faced if you had stayed back. For example, how did you get your textbooks in an accessible format, and were the professors abroad willing to work with you? As far as the culture is concerned, did you find that people were less accepting of you in other countries? I really want to study abroad even if it would be a challenge, but i guess i am trying to figure out what i should plan for, or if there is anything i should do in advance to prepare. Thanks Cindy From hope.paulos at maine.edu Thu Dec 11 16:41:35 2008 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:41:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad Message-ID: <20081211163826.WBMY2218.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Hi Cindy. Where are you planning to study? Once I know the country I can get more information for you. I've never studied abroad, but might be able to help as far as the cultural aspects, depending on the country you're planning to go to. Hope and Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Cindy Bennett To: National Asociation of Blind Students Date sent: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:02:47 -0800 (PST) >Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad >I really want to study abroad next year. I was curious about how those of you who have studied abroad liked it, and if there were difficulties that you would not have faced if you had stayed back. For example, how did you get your textbooks in an accessible format, and were the professors abroad willing to work with you? As far as the culture is concerned, did you find that people were less accepting of you in other countries? I really want to study abroad even if it would be a challenge, but i guess i am trying to figure out what i should plan for, or if there is anything i should do in advance to prepare. >Thanks >Cindy >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine.edu From aguimaraes at nbp.org Thu Dec 11 19:34:29 2008 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:34:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad References: <19528.72355.qm@web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ce01c95bc7$7cb27720$3c64a8c0@nbp2.local> Hello, If going to Brazil, don't expect to have college books brailled. Most Brazilian students, my brother included, work with readers, volunteers, and scan their own books when convenient. The reality is there is no central location, nor the funds to provide such services. I don't think you are interested in Brazil as a study abroad option, but I think you'd like it. I'll be having fun down there for 3 weeks in June of next year. Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Bennett" To: "National Asociation of Blind Students" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:02 AM Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad >I really want to study abroad next year. I was curious about how those of >you who have studied abroad liked it, and if there were difficulties that >you would not have faced if you had stayed back. For example, how did you >get your textbooks in an accessible format, and were the professors abroad >willing to work with you? As far as the culture is concerned, did you find >that people were less accepting of you in other countries? I really want to >study abroad even if it would be a challenge, but i guess i am trying to >figure out what i should plan for, or if there is anything i should do in >advance to prepare. > Thanks > Cindy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org > From jbrastrup at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 20:57:51 2008 From: jbrastrup at yahoo.com (jamie brastrup) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:57:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] sorry very off topic but need help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <582924.68349.qm@web54010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> hi all, i have an interview in spokane the beginning of jan. over at the light house for the blind. i dont know when i will move there but need either a room to rent for 6 months till i can get employment history to apply for another apartment and someone to foster 2 cats (companion animals) or something that will take both me and the cats. if you could be of any help please let me know. thanks jamie --- On Thu, 12/11/08, nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org wrote: From: nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 11 To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 11:00 AM Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to nabs-l at nfbnet.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org You can reach the person managing the list at nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Editing Audio Tracks (Marvin Hunkin) 2. Walking at Graduation (Harry Hogue) 3. Re: Walking at Graduation (Arielle Silverman) 4. Re: Walking at Graduation (hannah jones) 5. Re: Walking at Graduation (Albert Yoo) 6. Re: Walking at Graduation (Beth) 7. Re: Walking at Graduation (hannah) 8. Re: Walking at Graduation (Sarah Jevnikar) 9. Washington Seminar roommate search (Terri Rupp) 10. Accessibility Anywhere Braille Display Petition (Serotek Announcements) 11. Re: Walking at Graduation (Rania) 12. Re: Walking at Graduation (Liz Bottner) 13. Re: Walking at Graduation (Harry Hogue) 14. studying abroad (Cindy Bennett) 15. Re: studying abroad (Hope Paulos) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:13:21 +1100 From: "Marvin Hunkin" Subject: [nabs-l] Editing Audio Tracks To: Message-ID: <21CB4CAC8DE14B81A75AEEECC89885F5 at marvinPC> Hi. well, got some cds, that i had from one of my relatives, then burned to a cd and converted to mp3. now, tried editing the track information, so ti would say the track name, artist, album, and not just unknown artist, etc. well will paste a message below. could not edit the track information. and ripped a audio cd, and got jaws 10, and windows media 11. and it gave me the information, when i was editing it in windows explorer. and the track, artist, album, cane up. so, can any one help. another question is, is there any software, which can repair corrupted or damaged mp3 files, as do not have the original cd, any more. only the ripped mp3 copy. a few tracks, muffled, or warped. and here's the message. Hi. well, went to my track in windows media player, stopped the file, as loaded it from windows explorer. well, went to the properties tab, went to content. tried to edit the information, but it would not let me change any thing, like the title , artist, album. so how do i get to edit my audio tracks, as mp3, instead of saying unknown artist? can you help. cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:26:43 -0800 (PST) From: Harry Hogue Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Message-ID: <330895.39158.qm at web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hello everyone, ? I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide. ? I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc.? What have you guys done who have graduated?? As I understand it you walk up? a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side.? Thoughts? ? P.S.? Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish. ? Harry ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:35 +1100 From: "Arielle Silverman" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Harry, When I graduated I practiced first a few days before so I would have an idea of how the route was set up and then I could do it on my own. However, I had a small graduation for just my small college, so that may not work if you're in a general university graduation. Maybe talk to the registrar and see if you can practice beforehand. You can also try asking someone you know who is graduating to be your guide. Amusingly, at our graduation the people working were nervous because I guess the lighting near the steps to go off the stage wasn't very good, and they were afraid people would fall off the stage! I think overall I was at an advantage! Arielle On 12/11/08, Harry Hogue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to > make arrangements for a guide. > > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking > across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys > done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the > person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the > other side. Thoughts? > > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the > student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they > wish. > > Harry > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:45:53 -0600 From: hannah jones Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Message-ID: <49407EE1.6090809 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed i walked by myself at mine. made a dumb mistake but i did it. Harry Hogue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide. > > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts? > > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish. > > Harry > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.com > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:46:54 -0500 From: Albert Yoo Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:26:43 -0800> From: harryhogue at yahoo.com> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org> Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation> > Hello everyone,> > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide.> > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts?> > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish.> > Harry> _______________________________________________> nabs-l mailing list> nabs-l at nfbnet.org> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Suspicious message? There?s an alert for that. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008 ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:51:22 -0500 From: Beth Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Message-ID: <4383d01d0812101851i745bce41l3b7c50ef366beda5 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I sat at one side of the stage during my junior college graduation, then walked across the stage to sit at another side of the stage in a chair located there. I think the disabilities office helped with that. I don't see why you couldn't just call the registrar's office and arrange for a guide and a special place to sit. Good ideas, Harry.Beth On 12/10/08, Harry Hogue wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to > make arrangements for a guide. > > I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking > across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys > done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the > person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the > other side. Thoughts? > > P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the > student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they > wish. > > Harry > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:17:17 -0800 From: hannah Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Message-ID: <20081211041627.SYMH14508.omta02.suddenlink.net at BrailleNote> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed What about high school graduations? Any suggestions on how a person who's blind or visually impaired could prepare for that? > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:35 +1100 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation >Hi Harry, >When I graduated I practiced first a few days before so I would have >an idea of how the route was set up and then I could do it on my own. >However, I had a small graduation for just my small college, so that >may not work if you're in a general university graduation. Maybe talk >to the registrar and see if you can practice beforehand. You can also >try asking someone you know who is graduating to be your guide. >Amusingly, at our graduation the people working were nervous because I >guess the lighting near the steps to go off the stage wasn't very >good, and they were afraid people would fall off the stage! I think >overall I was at an advantage! >Arielle >On 12/11/08, Harry Hogue wrote: >> Hello everyone, >> I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to >> make arrangements for a guide. >> I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking >> across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys >> done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the >> person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the >> other side. Thoughts? >> P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the >> student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they >> wish. >> Harry >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71 %40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:49:16 -0500 From: "Sarah Jevnikar" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Harry, For high school, I just had the person ahead of me walk me to the stairs (ramp in your case) and then they walked across and I just went after them. I'd practiced the day of though cause we'd had a rehearsal as a group. Sometimes the people giving you the diploma might direct you, though this didn't happen in my case. The person ahead of me just waited for me on the other side of the stage and then we walked back to our seats together. I didn't know this person beforehand but it wasn't too difficult to ask them. Good luck, and congratulations on your grad. Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Harry Hogue Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation Hello everyone, ? I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide. ? I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc.? What have you guys done who have graduated?? As I understand it you walk up? a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side.? Thoughts? ? P.S.? Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish. ? Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:08:30 -0800 From: "Terri Rupp" Subject: [nabs-l] Washington Seminar roommate search To: "NABS list serve" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I recently received a message from the NFB of New Mexico President telling me that a student from her state needs roommate for Washington Seminar. His name is Wesley Peters and will be arriving on Saturday February 7th, and leaving Wednesday February 11th. If anyone is interested, please contact me directly offlist. Warmest Wishes, Terri Rupp, President National Association of Blind Students (707)-567-3019 terri.rupp at gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:34:12 -0600 From: Serotek Announcements (by way of David Andrews ) Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility Anywhere Braille Display Petition To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A petition has been started by George McDermith at http://www.petitiononline.com/brldis/petition.html asking Braille display manufacturers to base their drivers on the human interface protocol, found on all Windows computers. Such a design philosophy will ensure that users can be certain of having support for their Braille display on any computer, not just one which has been custom-configured for such access, and will eliminate the need to depend on specific screen reader drivers. The text of the petition reads as follows: "To: Braille display manufacturers We, the undersigned, who are Braille display users, friends and family of Braille display users, and teachers of the blind, *: Believe that accessibility to information for the blind on a par with their sighted piers is a right. Believe that due to this right, and due to the cost of Braille displays, accessing Braille through the use of Braille displays should not be limited by the type of screen reading solution used by the blind. *: Strongly request that all manufacturers of Braille displays cease basing the drivers of their Braille displays off of particular screen reader drivers, but rather base all Braille display drivers off of the Human User Interface Protocol, which can be found on all Windows computers. *: This will allow true portability and equal access to information for the blind, as they will be able to use their display with any computer. This will create greater competition in the market for the best Braille display to stand out, grant greater literacy in Braille through greater access to electronic Braille books and other materials, and support the right of all blind people to have accessibility anywhere." To add your support to this worthy cause, visit the petition web page at http://www.petitiononline.com/brldis/petition.html The Serotek Team ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:12:31 -0500 From: "Rania" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Message-ID: <002801c95b89$be5fdb10$2d01a8c0 at DHQ5QJF1> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response I had someone there to guide me across the platform but I also worked on it before the rehersel as well. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "hannah" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation > What about high school graduations? Any suggestions on how a person who's > blind or visually impaired could prepare for that? > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Arielle Silverman" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:35 +1100 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation > >>Hi Harry, > >>When I graduated I practiced first a few days before so I would > have >>an idea of how the route was set up and then I could do it on my > own. >>However, I had a small graduation for just my small college, so > that >>may not work if you're in a general university graduation. Maybe > talk >>to the registrar and see if you can practice beforehand. You can > also >>try asking someone you know who is graduating to be your guide. > >>Amusingly, at our graduation the people working were nervous > because I >>guess the lighting near the steps to go off the stage wasn't very >>good, and they were afraid people would fall off the stage! I > think >>overall I was at an advantage! > >>Arielle > >>On 12/11/08, Harry Hogue wrote: >>> Hello everyone, > >>> I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's > office to >>> make arrangements for a guide. > >>> I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about > walking >>> across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What > have you guys >>> done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a > ramp, to the >>> person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk > down the >>> other side. Thoughts? > >>> P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, > but that the >>> student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a > guide if they >>> wish. > >>> Harry >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71 > %40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:43:08 -0500 From: "Liz Bottner" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Message-ID: <494126ef.0c2d400a.52ff.ffffb2c3 at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Harry, When I graduated both high school and college, I walked across the stage totally independently with my guide dog. I made it very clear that if at all possible, I wanted to walk across by myself. During my college graduation, someone walked behind me in the aisle of seats, just to make sure I was going the right way, and then that person stopped at the stage, allowing me to go up completely on my own, where I shook hands with the people I needed to shake hands with and received my diploma cover. The person who was assisting me went around backstage, I think, and met me at the other side, once I came down the stairs, to help make sure I got back to the correct seat. I don't remember that much about my high school graduation, sorry! Haha! Take care, Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 06:48:54 -0800 (PST) From: Harry Hogue Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Message-ID: <106962.6711.qm at web33501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Hello everyone, ? Thanks for the suggestions.? I'm going to go by the registrar's office today and see what they say/what has been done in the past (I believe one person did it on his own, an another had a guide). ? I'll let you guys know! Harry --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: From: Sarah Jevnikar Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 10:49 PM Hi Harry, For high school, I just had the person ahead of me walk me to the stairs (ramp in your case) and then they walked across and I just went after them. I'd practiced the day of though cause we'd had a rehearsal as a group. Sometimes the people giving you the diploma might direct you, though this didn't happen in my case. The person ahead of me just waited for me on the other side of the stage and then we walked back to our seats together. I didn't know this person beforehand but it wasn't too difficult to ask them. Good luck, and congratulations on your grad. Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Harry Hogue Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation Hello everyone, ? I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide. ? I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc.? What have you guys done who have graduated?? As I understand it you walk up? a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side.? Thoughts? ? P.S.? Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish. ? Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:02:47 -0800 (PST) From: Cindy Bennett Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad To: National Asociation of Blind Students Message-ID: <19528.72355.qm at web65613.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I really want to study abroad next year. I was curious about how those of you who have studied abroad liked it, and if there were difficulties that you would not have faced if you had stayed back. For example, how did you get your textbooks in an accessible format, and were the professors abroad willing to work with you? As far as the culture is concerned, did you find that people were less accepting of you in other countries? I really want to study abroad even if it would be a challenge, but i guess i am trying to figure out what i should plan for, or if there is anything i should do in advance to prepare. Thanks Cindy ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:41:35 -0500 From: Hope Paulos Subject: Re: [nabs-l] studying abroad To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Message-ID: <20081211163826.WBMY2218.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com at BrailleNote> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Cindy. Where are you planning to study? Once I know the country I can get more information for you. I've never studied abroad, but might be able to help as far as the cultural aspects, depending on the country you're planning to go to. Hope and Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Cindy Bennett To: National Asociation of Blind Students Date sent: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:02:47 -0800 (PST) >Subject: [nabs-l] studying abroad >I really want to study abroad next year. I was curious about how those of you who have studied abroad liked it, and if there were difficulties that you would not have faced if you had stayed back. For example, how did you get your textbooks in an accessible format, and were the professors abroad willing to work with you? As far as the culture is concerned, did you find that people were less accepting of you in other countries? I really want to study abroad even if it would be a challenge, but i guess i am trying to figure out what i should plan for, or if there is anything i should do in advance to prepare. >Thanks >Cindy >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine.edu ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 26, Issue 11 ************************************** From bcsarah.fan at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 21:36:31 2008 From: bcsarah.fan at gmail.com (Patricia) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:36:31 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation Message-ID: Hi Harry: I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the stage by myself in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my teacher advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she did sighted guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her and lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I could do that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I borrowed (I was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular mobility cane for this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and across the stage to greet those people I needed to. I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before that, as before hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route from my chair to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about to go up with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously received award and I didn't feel good about it that time. HTH, Patricia From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Thu Dec 11 22:37:23 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Patricia, That's so funny - I didn't know other people used and ID cane as a "formal cane". I find them harder to use than a mobility one though. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:37 PM To: nabs Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation Hi Harry: I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the stage by myself in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my teacher advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she did sighted guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her and lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I could do that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I borrowed (I was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular mobility cane for this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and across the stage to greet those people I needed to. I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before that, as before hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route from my chair to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about to go up with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously received award and I didn't feel good about it that time. HTH, Patricia _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Thu Dec 11 23:29:37 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:29:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation Message-ID: <20081211232841.GPJS13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> I use ID canes because they're light, but I find that they stick to things easily, but I like them because they're very very light... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hey Patricia, >That's so funny - I didn't know other people used and ID cane as a "formal >cane". I find them harder to use than a mobility one though. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Patricia >Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:37 PM >To: nabs >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hi Harry: >I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the stage by myself >in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my teacher >advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she did sighted >guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her and >lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I could do >that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I borrowed (I >was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular mobility cane for >this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and across the >stage to greet those people I needed to. >I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before that, as before >hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route from my chair >to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about to go up >with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously received award >and I didn't feel good about it that time. >HTH, >Patricia >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From weathertrooper at msn.com Sat Dec 13 00:55:12 2008 From: weathertrooper at msn.com (Ben Moore) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:55:12 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation References: Message-ID: When I graduated from high school (which is how you graduate from college as well, I think) I practiced with the person who was to sit down right before I did. Luckily he was one of my friends, so it worked out pretty well when the real thing happened. I recommend practicing with somebody, if at all possible - they wouldn't mind, since they probably need the practice as well.. I only say practice with someone so you don't screw up and go to the wrong seat. I had a friend who was also blind, and she didn't want to practice walking. So, when Graduation was happening, she was the ONLY senior to screw up by making a wrong turn. Damn, almost feel sorry for her. Instead I said, "can't tackle life alone, girl!" So that was that. From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Fri Dec 12 01:11:52 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:11:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation In-Reply-To: <20081211232841.GPJS13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> References: <20081211232841.GPJS13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: That's true. I find they're too thin to get a proper hold of and mine's a bit too long which is annoying at times. But the lightness is a good thing for sure. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of hannah Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation I use ID canes because they're light, but I find that they stick to things easily, but I like them because they're very very light... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hey Patricia, >That's so funny - I didn't know other people used and ID cane as a "formal >cane". I find them harder to use than a mobility one though. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Patricia >Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:37 PM >To: nabs >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hi Harry: >I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the stage by myself >in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my teacher >advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she did sighted >guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her and >lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I could do >that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I borrowed (I >was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular mobility cane for >this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and across the >stage to greet those people I needed to. >I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before that, as before >hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route from my chair >to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about to go up >with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously received award >and I didn't feel good about it that time. >HTH, >Patricia >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 02:38:02 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:38:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille+ Message-ID: <71AC741B64524568A99F262EBB3FDAFE@MonkeyPaw> Hello all, Can anyone using the Braille+ provide a user review? Likes? Dislikes? I'm looking into making the investment but want some firsthand accounts of how well the product works, how it synchronizes with the PC and how the Internet browsing functions. Thanks in advance. Best, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie From harryhogue at yahoo.com Fri Dec 12 04:16:13 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:16:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <12866.73318.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone, I went by the registrar's today and they are setting up everything for the ceremony n Saturday; they told me I can go by tomorrow morning and practice; I am free, they made it clear, to either do it on my own to have a guide, and it is my choice.  It is good when they are that open; although we know it is our choice, it is nice when others back you up with these things.   Thanks again for your advice, gus.   Harry --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: From: Sarah Jevnikar Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 7:11 PM That's true. I find they're too thin to get a proper hold of and mine's a bit too long which is annoying at times. But the lightness is a good thing for sure. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of hannah Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation I use ID canes because they're light, but I find that they stick to things easily, but I like them because they're very very light... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hey Patricia, >That's so funny - I didn't know other people used and ID cane as a "formal >cane". I find them harder to use than a mobility one though. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Patricia >Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:37 PM >To: nabs >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hi Harry: >I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the stage by myself >in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my teacher >advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she did sighted >guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her and >lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I could do >that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I borrowed (I >was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular mobility cane for >this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and across the >stage to greet those people I needed to. >I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before that, as before >hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route from my chair >to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about to go up >with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously received award >and I didn't feel good about it that time. >HTH, >Patricia >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Fri Dec 12 04:49:14 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:49:14 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation Message-ID: <20081212044817.JYFB13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Good luck Harry and let us know how it goes... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Harry Hogue To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:16:13 -0800 (PST) >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hello everyone, >I went by the registrar's today and they are setting up everything for the ceremony n Saturday; they told me I can go by tomorrow morning and practice; I am free, they made it clear, to either do it on my own to have a guide, and it is my choice.  It is good when they are that open; although we know it is our choice, it is nice when others back you up with these things. >  >Thanks again for your advice, gus. >  >Harry >--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: >From: Sarah Jevnikar Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 7:11 PM >That's true. I find they're too thin to get a proper hold of and >mine's a >bit too long which is annoying at times. But the lightness is a good thing >for sure. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of hannah >Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:30 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >I use ID canes because they're light, but I find that they stick >to things easily, but I like them because they're very very >light... >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing >list'" >>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:23 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >>Hey Patricia, >>That's so funny - I didn't know other people used and ID cane as >a "formal >>cane". I find them harder to use than a mobility one though. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>Of Patricia >>Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:37 PM >>To: nabs >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >>Hi Harry: >>I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the >stage by myself >>in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my >teacher >>advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she >did sighted >>guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her >and >>lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I >could do >>that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I >borrowed (I >>was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular >mobility cane for >>this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and >across the >>stage to greet those people I needed to. >>I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before >that, as before >>hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route >from my chair >>to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about >to go up >>with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously >received award >>and I didn't feel good about it that time. >>HTH, >>Patricia >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev >nikar%40uto >>ronto.ca >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli >cious%40suddenlink.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogu e%40yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Fri Dec 12 15:51:16 2008 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:51:16 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] performing arts division advertisements Message-ID: <121220081551.19185.494288740005468000004AF12207000953010D0E9C0497030E@comcast.net> hello all, i hope that everyone is doing well. sorry, that it has been a long while since i have done any public relations for the nfb and also for the performing arts division too! anyway, i wanted to let you all know for you those who weren't aware of this or not but, beginning this past sunday on the djd invasion we begun playing announcement about the division and also promoting the sound and sight volume 1 album for the holidays. in promoting the album which is wonderful for people to buy the album for the holidays and, also provide the division some good pr in getting donations and contributions for it. there will be many more announcements played about the division within the upcoming holiday season and throughout the year. to listen to them please turn into the djd invasion on sundaynights at 9pm est by going to www.thedjdinvasion.com/listen.html thanks again for your assistance, and i hope that everyone has a wonderful holiday season! sincerely yours, amy sabo From dlawless86 at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 22:08:32 2008 From: dlawless86 at gmail.com (Domonique Lawless) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:08:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation In-Reply-To: <20081212044817.JYFB13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> References: <20081212044817.JYFB13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <423e6e460812131408p166d17f6i6ef1f89b07990f3d@mail.gmail.com> Hi Harry, You could also ask the person who will be sitting next to you to tap you on the arm when you need to stand up and move. If you have a chance to practice before hand with this person you could touch your cane to the other person's heel and then move forward when they do. Usually there are lots of school officials lined up to shake your hand or congratulate you as you walk by to receive your diploma, so there shouldn't be a problem for you to get across. I hope this helps! Congratulations on graduating! Best Wishes, Domonique On 12/11/08, hannah wrote: > Good luck Harry and let us know how it goes... > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: Harry Hogue >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:16:13 -0800 (PST) >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation > >>Hello everyone, >>I went by the registrar's today and they are setting up > everything for the ceremony n Saturday; they told me I can go by > tomorrow morning and practice; I am free, they made it clear, to > either do it on my own to have a guide, and it is my choice. It > is good when they are that open; although we know it is our > choice, it is nice when others back you up with these things. >> >>Thanks again for your advice, gus. >> >>Harry > >>--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Sarah Jevnikar > wrote: > >>From: Sarah Jevnikar >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > >Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 7:11 PM > >>That's true. I find they're too thin to get a proper hold of and >>mine's a >>bit too long which is annoying at times. But the lightness is a > good thing >>for sure. > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>Of hannah >>Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:30 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation > >>I use ID canes because they're light, but I find that they stick >>to things easily, but I like them because they're very very >>light... > >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>list'" >>>>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:23 -0500 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation > >>>Hey Patricia, >>>That's so funny - I didn't know other people used and ID cane as >>a "formal >>>cane". I find them harder to use than a mobility one though. > >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>Of Patricia >>>Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:37 PM >>>To: nabs >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation > >>>Hi Harry: > >>>I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the >>stage by myself >>>in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my >>teacher >>>advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she >>did sighted >>>guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her >>and >>>lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I >>could do >>>that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I >>borrowed (I >>>was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular >>mobility cane for >>>this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and >>across the >>>stage to greet those people I needed to. > >>>I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before >>that, as before >>>hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route >>from my chair >>>to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about >>to go up >>>with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously >>received award >>>and I didn't feel good about it that time. > >>>HTH, > >>>Patricia >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev >>nikar%40uto >>>ronto.ca > > >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli >>cious%40suddenlink.net > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev > nikar%40uto >>ronto.ca > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogu > e%40yahoo.com >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dlawless86%40gmail.com > From serenacucco at verizon.net Sun Dec 14 19:21:10 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:21:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010601c95e21$1feda710$0301a8c0@Serene> Hey Harry I'm sure my answer's a moot point cuz it's Sunday, but the disability person was gonna make me sit in special seating, I'm guessing, closer to the stage, but I refused! In the end, the person in charge of graduation found someone to guide me. I used sighted guide, just cuz it was easier. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:26 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation Hello everyone, I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to make arrangements for a guide. I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts? P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if they wish. Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Sun Dec 14 19:37:15 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:37:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] walking at graduation References: <12866.73318.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <017a01c95e23$5efdfde0$0301a8c0@Serene> That's the good thing about the DSS Office not taking charge of you! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation Hello everyone, I went by the registrar's today and they are setting up everything for the ceremony n Saturday; they told me I can go by tomorrow morning and practice; I am free, they made it clear, to either do it on my own to have a guide, and it is my choice. It is good when they are that open; although we know it is our choice, it is nice when others back you up with these things. Thanks again for your advice, gus. Harry --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: From: Sarah Jevnikar Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 7:11 PM That's true. I find they're too thin to get a proper hold of and mine's a bit too long which is annoying at times. But the lightness is a good thing for sure. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of hannah Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation I use ID canes because they're light, but I find that they stick to things easily, but I like them because they're very very light... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:37:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hey Patricia, >That's so funny - I didn't know other people used and ID cane as a "formal >cane". I find them harder to use than a mobility one though. >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Patricia >Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 4:37 PM >To: nabs >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] walking at graduation >Hi Harry: >I haven't graduated university yet but I did walk across the stage by myself >in high school. like Sarah, I had someone there who was in my teacher >advisory (as that is how they went through the students). she did sighted >guide with me up to the stairs, and then i would stand behind her and >lightly put my hand on her shoulder (asking her of course if I could do >that). when she went up I located the stairs with an ID cane I borrowed (I >was told it would look cute and more dainty than a regular mobility cane for >this purpose) and then once my name was called I walked up and across the >stage to greet those people I needed to. >I did practice in the rehearsal and a couple of times before that, as before >hand I was going to try and see if I could memorize the route from my chair >to the stage but this option seemed best for me. I wasn't about to go up >with soemone sighted guide, as I did that for a spontaneously received award >and I didn't feel good about it that time. >HTH, >Patricia >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40uto >ronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From newmanrl at cox.net Mon Dec 15 00:47:05 2008 From: newmanrl at cox.net (Robert Newman) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:47:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New THOUGHT PROVOKER #140- McGoo'd Message-ID: NABS RE: McGoo'd Here is a THOUGHT PROVOKER about a teenager who has worked long and hard to make it with his not too good of low vision. But now he is beginning to think differently. If you have not read the PROVOKER, it follows. Recall that I collect responses and post them upon my web site for all the WWW to read and learn from and that URL is- Http://thoughtprovoker.info If you wish to receive THOUGHT PROVOKERS sent directly to you, just write me and ask, at- newmanrl at cox.net THOUGHT PROVOKER 140 McGoo'd "Whoa, that's a big honking screen for a laptop!" "Yeah, I like to be able to sit back and be comfortable." Dempsey was showing off his computer to a new friend. He was attending a summer program for blind teens of high school age. Rapidly he reduced the enlargement of the text he'd been studying. "I was checking out the details of the pics and diagrams we need to use for our group project," he lied; he didn't think it would be cool in this group to be the one using the biggest enlargement. Squinting now, he forged ahead, getting only a part of what scrolled by. Next to him, a tiny earphone voice running at triple speed told him his neighbor was back to reading via her screen enlargement software's voice. "Everyone finished? They want us back in the main hall in five minutes," said Kelly, the group's elected leader and the only one of them who was totally blind. Dempsey's ego hurt a little for not being chosen for lead. But deep down he knew he probably would not be able to outdo some of these guys, no matter if he could see better than them or not. "Yo! Done and got my notes Brailled up," answered Mark, putting his slate back in his laptop case. That Braille thing was something Dempsey just didn't get. He had visited with Mark and knew the two of them had about the same vision. Dempsey and his parents had always opted for print, wanting him to fit into the mainstream. "Hey, let's settle on who is going to present which part of the report," Kelsey said. "I've got to write out the specifics of what I say." "I'll handle the second section," Dempsey volunteered. He hadn't gotten much further than that in his study of the material; he was a good student, but these guys had gotten through the four sections of readings faster. And while the rest was being organized, he quickly wrote out a few notes with a heavy marker. He knew he'd better not even try to read from prepared notes; he'd gotten teased at the school where he was the only blind student ("Smelling or reading it, Dempsey?"). Presentations completed, the group was given a one-hour break. Someone suggested, "Let's go to Mickey D's!" "I know the way," Kelly said and took the lead. "Whoa.we going to go to a light?" asked Dempsey. "That would be four blocks down," answered Kelly. "We don't have the time." "We can handle this," Mark said, leaning forward, listening to the traffic on the four-lane street. Out of the four of them, Dempsey was the only one without a cane. He had a monocular back in the dorm, but even with that, this type of street made him nervous; at home he had a folding cane.somewhere. He never wanted the stigma of a cane, didn't need one, because he always chose where and when he would go places by himself. "Go!" Heart in his throat, Dempsey followed; he wouldn't be left behind. About the middle of the street, "Ow, darn!" as he kicked into an unseen cement island and fell. "Better take my arm.hurry." Kelly said. That evening was philosophy seminar. The topic was the effect of a blind media character upon an audience. "I have a rather provoking thought," spoke up one teen. "We all agree that when blindness is portrayed in the mass media, it has an effect upon how blindness is viewed by society. My question is, if that influence guides how we are treated and if you view that as a process that has been worked upon you, can you come up with a single term that captures the essence of which specific blind cult figure that's been applied to you?" Dempsey got it right away, but wasn't sure he was ready to share it. This day had brought it home to him-these guys had blindness skills, confidence, knew where in life they were going! They were competent blind people and he was basically an inferior sighted person. "Yeah, I've been McGoo'd." Robert Leslie Newman Email- newmanrl at cox.net THOUGHT PROVOKER Website- Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info From eduffy at pobox.com Mon Dec 15 04:38:29 2008 From: eduffy at pobox.com (eduffy) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:38:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Need a programmer Message-ID: I am forwarding the following for Eric Duffy. Please contact him directly, see below. Dave I am looking for someone with programming skills to write a simple program to clean up data in CSV files. I am willing to pay of course. Please email me privately or call (614) 562-5524. Thanks. Eric Duffy eduffy at pobox.com From startrekcafe at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 12:22:02 2008 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:22:02 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] it jobs problems Message-ID: <0B7F1C12BB0F4643AF8EF715A8D65462@marvinPC> Hi. well, have been looking for part time or full time it jobs in devonport tas. seems a lot of private and government jobs are in Launcestan or Hobart. and transport, could be a major problem, to me even getting a chance to get an interview. just starting seriosly to look for jobs. put a few feelers, asking for if any companies in devonport, or ulverston or latrobe, a few it companies. but have not heard back from them. so what do you suggest i do? as the public transport system, not really that great. no passenger trains, only buses, and that would take 3 hours or more out of my day to travel to Launcestan and return to devonport. pity there are no online jobs i could do as a part of a team, from home using the internet. suppose, most it firms have not the infresturcture to set that up. so just wondering, what are my options. there might be possible employment with Devon Industries, a supported work shop, and mainly manufacturing. they do have a admin section, but no it. they suggested i contact wise or ability employment. well, when i was in devonport, before moving to the mainland, then moving back to tas. long story. will not bore you with that, that's for another time and another place. so, what do you recommend? any suggestions, possible solutions, or work arounds, would be fine. or even possible links to possible job vacancies. i do not really want to work in a supported work shop, did that about 20 years ago at the royal society for the blind of south Australia. so what do you suggest? at a loss. have been looking around for a little while, searching online job sites. and get some it jobs, but they are in Launcestan or Hobart. any ideas? i have seem to hit a brick wall. i do get a taxi subsedy. but even at 2 days a week, to Launcestan and back, could be quite expensive. unless, be able to car pool, even if i can get an interview, get short listed, and even get the position. and even if i bring my laptop, which has jaws. really hit a brick wall and need suggestions. any one else been in this situation, middle aged, blind and trying to get a foot into this industry? cheers Marvin. E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One From passionflower505 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 16:43:50 2008 From: passionflower505 at yahoo.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:43:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] mac books Message-ID: <192465.70579.qm@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Macs are becoming very popular, and from what i have noticed they seem to work a lot better and to be more efficient than pc's. I know this is personal opinion, but i was curious if anyone has successfully used the voice over screen reader that is already on mac books when you get them, or if there is another screen reader that works with macs that would be better. Thanks Cindy From thisischris89 at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 17:12:18 2008 From: thisischris89 at gmail.com (Christopher Kchao) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:12:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] mac books In-Reply-To: <192465.70579.qm@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <192465.70579.qm@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <90B3AFF9E3E44BF6A541817505039AAF@consumer281f9d> For now, voiceover is the only screen reader that's available for Mac. Perhaps the most appealing quality about apple computers is that they come talking right out of the box without the need to install third party (and often expensive) software. To my knowledge, accessibility on the mac is still a work in progress though it has certainly come a long way. Even so, there are many blind people who use apple computers quite extensively in their daily lives with little to no difficulty. If anything, you always have the option of running windows by dual booting or using VMWare. If you want more information, I encourage you to check out the macvisionaries website and associated mailing list at http://www.macvisionaries.com Hope this helps -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:44 AM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] mac books Macs are becoming very popular, and from what i have noticed they seem to work a lot better and to be more efficient than pc's. I know this is personal opinion, but i was curious if anyone has successfully used the voice over screen reader that is already on mac books when you get them, or if there is another screen reader that works with macs that would be better. Thanks Cindy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thisischris89%40gmai l.com From JFreeh at nfb.org Mon Dec 15 18:45:47 2008 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:45:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Public Relations Specialist National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: “The biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor.” ### From corbbo at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 18:45:40 2008 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 18:45:40 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] mac books In-Reply-To: <90B3AFF9E3E44BF6A541817505039AAF@consumer281f9d> References: <192465.70579.qm@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <90B3AFF9E3E44BF6A541817505039AAF@consumer281f9d> Message-ID: <3F99A25D-9F20-4B70-A3BF-DCEFFAFFAE70@gmail.com> As a MacBook Pro user, I agree with Christopher: VoiceOver is very much still a work in progress. The Internet works pretty well, if you're using Safari, but Firefox is not accessible at all. Email is great, and Mac OS X Mail is 100 percent accessible. iTunes is getting there. And moving around files and folders works. But Microsoft Office 2004 isn't accessible -- I'm not sure about the latest version, as I don't have the money for that right now! Here's my short review: if you have some residual vision and use that to navigate your computer, a Mac is far better with its equivalent of Zoom Text (they call it Screen Magnification and its available out-of- the-box on all machines in System Preferences, Accessibility). However, if you're somebody who relies more on a screen reader than upon magnification, you're better off with a PC, for JAWS is far superior. Maybe in a few years that will change, but we can only hope! Oh, and one more thing: emulating a PC is possible on the Mac, but don't expect it to be like having a PC -- most programs are still comparatively slower, especially if you try to run access technology on them. I use Parallels to run Kurzweil and it works -- most of the time -- but it's also sometimes very buggy and slow. Best wishes-- Corbb ----- Corbb O'Connor studying at the National University of Ireland, Galway On Dec 15, 2008, at 5:12 PM, Christopher Kchao wrote: For now, voiceover is the only screen reader that's available for Mac. Perhaps the most appealing quality about apple computers is that they come talking right out of the box without the need to install third party (and often expensive) software. To my knowledge, accessibility on the mac is still a work in progress though it has certainly come a long way. Even so, there are many blind people who use apple computers quite extensively in their daily lives with little to no difficulty. If anything, you always have the option of running windows by dual booting or using VMWare. If you want more information, I encourage you to check out the macvisionaries website and associated mailing list at http://www.macvisionaries.com Hope this helps -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:44 AM To: National Asociation of Blind Students Subject: [nabs-l] mac books Macs are becoming very popular, and from what i have noticed they seem to work a lot better and to be more efficient than pc's. I know this is personal opinion, but i was curious if anyone has successfully used the voice over screen reader that is already on mac books when you get them, or if there is another screen reader that works with macs that would be better. Thanks Cindy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thisischris89%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 20:20:46 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:20:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any reason. Beth On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > CONTACT: > > Chris Danielsen > > Public Relations Specialist > > National Federation of the Blind > > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > National Federation of the Blind > Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > > > > Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans > > > > Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris > Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation > of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by > blind people is not blindness itself, but the > stereotypes held by the general public about > blindness and blind people. The idea that blind > people are incapable of the simplest tasks and > are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is > absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes > to an unemployment rate among blind people that > stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why > the National Federation of the Blind is > disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to > portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine > that focused almost exclusively on his > blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is > blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind > children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly > blinded veterans returning from Iraq and > Afghanistan. The National Federation of the > Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live > to consider the serious negative impact that > misinformation and stereotypes have on blind > people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." > > > > > ### > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From liamskitten at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 20:29:54 2008 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Linda Stover) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:29:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7949e5e20812151229o748ee820s344eea056437a2fb@mail.gmail.com> Hello, Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what exactly the comics were paridying. Courtney On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: > Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. > I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be > Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any > reason. > Beth > > On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> >> >> CONTACT: >> >> Chris Danielsen >> >> Public Relations Specialist >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> >> >> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >> >> >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >> stereotypes held by the general public about >> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >> the National Federation of the Blind is >> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >> that focused almost exclusively on his >> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >> blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind >> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >> to consider the serious negative impact that >> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >> >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com > From harryhogue at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 21:27:08 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Message-ID: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone,   I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish.  And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! Harry From yvgarcia at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 21:43:03 2008 From: yvgarcia at gmail.com (Yolanda Garcia) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:43:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016201c95efe$1c7e8e90$0201a8c0@yolanda> Yay, congratulations Harry for successfully completing this chapter in your journey of life. You'll definitely have more successes to come at Blind Inc and grad school! Continue the celebrating through out the holidays, you deserve it! Warmest Regards, Yolanda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Hello everyone, I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish. And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/yvgarcia%40gmail.com From pyyhkala at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 21:43:37 2008 From: pyyhkala at gmail.com (pyyhkala at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:43:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <7949e5e20812151229o748ee820s344eea056437a2fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <7949e5e20812151229o748ee820s344eea056437a2fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <695ace540812151343s3115259cw6d1c44b884061be@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an article I liked on Facebook, see below. NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper (the article has more detail on the controversy) You can also watch the skit in question at this link: http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/881501/ You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below that does a real time search: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. Best, Mika Twitter Micro blog: http://twitter.com/pyyhkala Facebook: http://profile.to/mika On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: > Hello, > > Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this > particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to > understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or > if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the governor > frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching segments of this > nature concerning the election on the show, certain > quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten > humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what > exactly the comics were paridying. > Courtney > > On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >> reason. >> Beth >> >> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> >>> Chris Danielsen >>> >>> Public Relations Specialist >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >>> >>> >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind >>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gmail.com > From hope.paulos at maine.edu Mon Dec 15 22:10:42 2008 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:10:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Message-ID: <20081215220715.WBRD2218.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Felicitaciones, harry! Congratulations! Hope and Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Harry Hogue To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) >Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! >Hello everyone, >  >I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish.  And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. >Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! >Harry >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine..edu From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Mon Dec 15 22:13:13 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:13:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <695ace540812151343s3115259cw6d1c44b884061be@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <7949e5e20812151229o748ee820s344eea056437a2fb@mail.gmail.com> <695ace540812151343s3115259cw6d1c44b884061be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I can't access the video for some reason. Anyone know if there are other places I could find it? Some of the comments are terrible though. "Bleeding heart liberal"? Yes, I am! And proud of it thanks! Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of pyyhkala at gmail.com Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hi, Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an article I liked on Facebook, see below. NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper (the article has more detail on the controversy) You can also watch the skit in question at this link: http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/88150 1/ You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below that does a real time search: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. Best, Mika Twitter Micro blog: http://twitter.com/pyyhkala Facebook: http://profile.to/mika On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: > Hello, > > Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this > particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to > understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or > if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the governor > frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching segments of this > nature concerning the election on the show, certain > quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten > humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what > exactly the comics were paridying. > Courtney > > On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >> reason. >> Beth >> >> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> >>> Chris Danielsen >>> >>> Public Relations Specialist >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >>> >>> >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans-blind >>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm ail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail. com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Mon Dec 15 22:13:39 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:13:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! In-Reply-To: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Congratulations! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Harry Hogue Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Hello everyone,   I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish.  And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From iamantonio at cox.net Mon Dec 15 22:29:38 2008 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:29:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] it jobs problems References: <0B7F1C12BB0F4643AF8EF715A8D65462@marvinPC> Message-ID: <000601c95f04$9de75060$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> Marvin, One of your options it to travel 3 or 4 hours a day. I do it, and I am only living in Providence RI, and working in Boston MA. I count my commute time as 20 hours a week. This includes getting to work about a half an hour before my shift each day, but since I treasure some down time, or gearing up to a day time, I haven't asked my superiors for an adjustment. If I did, I'd need to start the day at 8;45, which they could work with. I get a feeling people like runded up times, get ti work and leave on the hour, or the half hour. I chose where I live, and where I work. I have my own reasons for doing so, and I take on the 3 hours a day commute as something that comes with the territory. So, if you can get a job that pays well, and that is 3 hours travel round trip, consider how many other blind, and sighted people do it in developing countries, or even in the United States. Some times you make sacrifices. Sincerely, Antonio, who is on vacation and doesn't have to travel this week. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Hunkin" To: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:22 AM Subject: [nabs-l] it jobs problems > Hi. > well, have been looking for part time or full time it jobs in devonport > tas. > seems a lot of private and government jobs are in Launcestan or Hobart. > and transport, could be a major problem, to me even getting a chance to > get > an interview. > just starting seriosly to look for jobs. > put a few feelers, asking for if any companies in devonport, or ulverston > or > latrobe, a few it companies. but have not heard back from them. > so what do you suggest i do? > as the public transport system, not really that great. > no passenger trains, only buses, and that would take 3 hours or more out > of > my day to travel to Launcestan and return to devonport. > pity there are no online jobs i could do as a part of a team, from home > using the internet. > suppose, most it firms have not the infresturcture to set that up. > so just wondering, what are my options. > there might be possible employment with Devon Industries, a supported work > shop, and mainly manufacturing. > they do have a admin section, but no it. > they suggested i contact wise or ability employment. > well, when i was in devonport, before moving to the mainland, then moving > back to tas. > long story. > will not bore you with that, that's for another time and another place. > so, what do you recommend? > any suggestions, possible solutions, or work arounds, would be fine. > or even possible links to possible job vacancies. > i do not really want to work in a supported work shop, did that about 20 > years ago at the royal society for the blind of south Australia. > so what do you suggest? > at a loss. > have been looking around for a little while, searching online job sites. > and get some it jobs, but they are in Launcestan or Hobart. > any ideas? > i have seem to hit a brick wall. > i do get a taxi subsedy. > but even at 2 days a week, to Launcestan and back, could be quite > expensive. > unless, be able to car pool, even if i can get an interview, get short > listed, and even get the position. > and even if i bring my laptop, which has jaws. > really hit a brick wall and need suggestions. > any one else been in this situation, middle aged, blind and trying to get > a > foot into this industry? > cheers Marvin. > E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com > MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com > Skype: startrekcafe > We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! > Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One > E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com > MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com > Skype: startrekcafe > We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! > Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net From taiablas at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 22:29:55 2008 From: taiablas at gmail.com (Tai Blas(formerly Tomasi)) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:29:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! In-Reply-To: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000601c95f04$a977d300$fc677900$@com> Congratulations, Harry! Nice going. Tai -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Harry Hogue Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Hello everyone,   I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish.  And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/taiablas%40gmail.com From melissa at riccobono.us Mon Dec 15 22:34:18 2008 From: melissa at riccobono.us (Melissa Ann Riccobono) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:34:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Win a Wii Video Game System Message-ID: Hello everyone, The National Federation of the Blind of Maryland is running a holiday raffle for a chance to win a Wii video game system, plus $300! Chances to win are only $10 a piece and there will only be 1,000 chances sold. The winning number will be drawn on Christmas Eve, or sooner if the 1,000 chances are sold out before that time. Please act now to make sure you get your name in the contest. And, please send this link on to your friends and relatives who might be interested in winning this fantastically fun video game system! To purchase tickets, please visit http://www.nfbmd.org/Wii/WiiRules.html Be sure to get your name in the contest and advertise this with your friends and family. This is a great way to help the NFB of Maryland and provide a nice gift for someone in your family--or yourself Thank you for your support, Melissa Riccobono, President, National Federation of the Blind of Maryland From harryhogue at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 22:34:41 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:34:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] KNFB Reader Mobile, Talks and Wayfinder Access In-Reply-To: <20081215220715.WBRD2218.hrndva-omta06.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <68900.81082.qm@web33505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone,   First, thanks for the good wishes on my graduation!   I got, much to my surprise, the Nokia N82 with the KNFB Reader Mobile, Talks, and Wayfinder Access as a rather expensive but nice graduation present.  I am still playing around with the phone trying to figure things out... If this does not fit here or if there is another list where I should write about this, etc.  Please let me know; I don't want to be off-topic.  If anyone else has one/has thoughts/suggestions on how best to use the KNFB Reader Mobile/Talks, please let me know.     Thanks,   Harry --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Hope Paulos wrote: From: Hope Paulos Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 4:10 PM Felicitaciones, harry! Congratulations! Hope and Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Harry Hogue To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date sent: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) >Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! >Hello everyone, >  >I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish.  And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. >Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! >Harry >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine..edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 22:41:37 2008 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:41:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! In-Reply-To: References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54f02f10812151441v4902ec33uc8d140eb71f4b5dc@mail.gmail.com> Congratulations Harry! On 12/15/08, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: > Congratulations! > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Harry Hogue > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:27 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! > > Hello everyone, > > I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a > Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish. And yes, I walked across the stage > and received my diploma with only verbal cues. > Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! > Harry > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina From iamantonio at cox.net Mon Dec 15 22:57:29 2008 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:57:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com><7949e5e20812151229o748ee820s344eea056437a2fb@mail.gmail.com> <695ace540812151343s3115259cw6d1c44b884061be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501c95f08$8204cea0$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> >From a governer who is so opened to self-criticism, I think he got what he asked for. People from New Jersey should be up in arms, since he's so critical of that state in the skit. If he is unprepaired to be governer, then he's unprepaired to be governer. If he's a blind and unprepaired governer then that is who he is. The word blind is said only twice, but I am sure he displays some blindness-related mishaps, like missing a hand shake, and presenting a graph upside down. I think if you asked NFB people who followed Patterson 3 nonths ago about his blindness, they would be quick to point out several ways in which he has not adjusted to blindness effectively. I also think Saturday Night Live will make fun of whomever, no matter what supporters of the portraied say. They are in the business of making fun of people, and if they stop to listen to 50 thousand americans, they might be losing off of the millions who watch every week. I think the NFB leadership did the right thing by putting out a press release. It was the right action to take. Otherwise, we'd have the NFB losing off of the 50 thousand we now call members. I am not going to lose much sleep, or wear out my keyboard on list posts. This is a minor issue, and we go back to our scheduled program, including the very funny SNL. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes, ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment Hi, Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an article I liked on Facebook, see below. NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper (the article has more detail on the controversy) You can also watch the skit in question at this link: http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/881501/ You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below that does a real time search: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. Best, Mika Twitter Micro blog: http://twitter.com/pyyhkala Facebook: http://profile.to/mika On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: > Hello, > > Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this > particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to > understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or > if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the governor > frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching segments of this > nature concerning the election on the show, certain > quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten > humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what > exactly the comics were paridying. > Courtney > > On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >> reason. >> Beth >> >> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> >>> Chris Danielsen >>> >>> Public Relations Specialist >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >>> >>> >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind >>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Mon Dec 15 23:03:51 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:03:51 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Message-ID: <20081215230231.TXQZ13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Congrats Harry... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Harry Hogue To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) >Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! >Hello everyone, >  >I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish.  And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. >Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! >Harry >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 23:39:05 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:39:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <695ace540812151343s3115259cw6d1c44b884061be@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <7949e5e20812151229o748ee820s344eea056437a2fb@mail.gmail.com> <695ace540812151343s3115259cw6d1c44b884061be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081215233905.GB81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. Joseph On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >Hi, > >Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >article I liked on Facebook, see below. > >NY Times: >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper >(the article has more detail on the controversy) > >You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/881501/ > >You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >that does a real time search: >http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. > >Best, >Mika >Twitter Micro blog: >http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >Facebook: >http://profile.to/mika > >On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the governor >> frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching segments of this >> nature concerning the election on the show, certain >> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >> exactly the comics were paridying. >> Courtney >> >> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>> reason. >>> Beth >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> >>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind >>>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gmail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 23:43:36 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:43:36 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] mac books In-Reply-To: <3F99A25D-9F20-4B70-A3BF-DCEFFAFFAE70@gmail.com> References: <192465.70579.qm@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <90B3AFF9E3E44BF6A541817505039AAF@consumer281f9d> <3F99A25D-9F20-4B70-A3BF-DCEFFAFFAE70@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081215234336.GC81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> Office 2008 for Mac is totally inaccessible. And those of us who use screen magnification love the fact that on the Mac, we can zoom in a little or a lot, in very fine-grained steps. Much finer than on a PC. It works for guest OSes in Parallels or VMWare Fusion, too. Joseph On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 06:45:40PM +0000, Corbb O'Connor wrote: > As a MacBook Pro user, I agree with Christopher: VoiceOver is very much > still a work in progress. The Internet works pretty well, if you're using > Safari, but Firefox is not accessible at all. Email is great, and Mac OS > X Mail is 100 percent accessible. iTunes is getting there. And moving > around files and folders works. But Microsoft Office 2004 isn't > accessible -- I'm not sure about the latest version, as I don't have the > money for that right now! > > Here's my short review: if you have some residual vision and use that to > navigate your computer, a Mac is far better with its equivalent of Zoom > Text (they call it Screen Magnification and its available out-of-the-box > on all machines in System Preferences, Accessibility). However, if you're > somebody who relies more on a screen reader than upon magnification, > you're better off with a PC, for JAWS is far superior. Maybe in a few > years that will change, but we can only hope! Oh, and one more thing: > emulating a PC is possible on the Mac, but don't expect it to be like > having a PC -- most programs are still comparatively slower, especially > if you try to run access technology on them. I use Parallels to run > Kurzweil and it works -- most of the time -- but it's also sometimes very > buggy and slow. > > Best wishes-- > Corbb From serenacucco at verizon.net Mon Dec 15 23:58:09 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 18:58:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00b701c95f10$fbf56a50$0301a8c0@Serene> Congrats! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Hello everyone, I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish. And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From minesm at me.com Tue Dec 16 00:20:27 2008 From: minesm at me.com (Maurice Mines) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:20:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] mac books In-Reply-To: <192465.70579.qm@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <192465.70579.qm@web65605.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: hi I like mine just fine. hmm things seem to be so much better for som things. On Dec 15, 2008, at 9:43 AM, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Macs are becoming very popular, and from what i have noticed they > seem to work a lot better and to be more efficient than pc's. I know > this is personal opinion, but i was curious if anyone has > successfully used the voice over screen reader that is already on > mac books when you get them, or if there is another screen reader > that works with macs that would be better. > Thanks > Cindy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm > %40me.com From corbbo at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 01:34:13 2008 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:34:13 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, SNL blocks international audiences from watching their shows -- not uncommon practice by networks who don't get the same advertising dollars that they do from US audiences. So, I can't comment on the video but will be watching when I return to the States. On a different matter, though... Beth, the political environment in which we live is not a bubble. It's naive to think that a public figure isn't going to be mocked— especially on a program that received some of its highest ratings for doing just that to Gov. Palin and others involved in the Presidential races in years past. I salute you on aspiring to be a governor someday, but I hope you realize that being in the public eye means you will someday be the backdrop for others' careers in the humor industry. People don't tune into SNL for friendly handshakes, they tune in for the jokes. I think we'd do ourselves in the NFB a good service by accepting jokes sometimes. The organization's leadership overreacted on the movie Blindness, and might just be overreacting for a similar reason again, this time by expecting a comedic show to be serious. Corbb ----- Corbb O'Connor studying at the National University of Ireland, Galway On Dec 15, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Beth wrote: Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any reason. Beth On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > CONTACT: > > Chris Danielsen > > Public Relations Specialist > > National Federation of the Blind > > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > National Federation of the Blind > Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > > > > Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans > > > > Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris > Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation > of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by > blind people is not blindness itself, but the > stereotypes held by the general public about > blindness and blind people. The idea that blind > people are incapable of the simplest tasks and > are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is > absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes > to an unemployment rate among blind people that > stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why > the National Federation of the Blind is > disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to > portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine > that focused almost exclusively on his > blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is > blind is an attack on all blind Americans blind > children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly > blinded veterans returning from Iraq and > Afghanistan. The National Federation of the > Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live > to consider the serious negative impact that > misinformation and stereotypes have on blind > people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." > > > > > ### > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 04:36:22 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:36:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <20081215233905.GB81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. As for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. Best, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. Joseph On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >Hi, > >Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >article I liked on Facebook, see below. > >NY Times: >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) > >You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >881501/ > >You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >that does a real time search: >http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. > >Best, >Mika >Twitter Micro blog: >http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >Facebook: >http://profile.to/mika > >On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >> exactly the comics were paridying. >> Courtney >> >> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>> reason. >>> Beth >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> >>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>> Americans >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >> ail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 04:45:00 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:45:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] State Division Materials Message-ID: Dear state student division presidents and representatives: The NABS web site is well underway. As we grow closer to the launch we're turning to our student leadership at the state level to help us collect information about some specific information in your affiliates. If your affiliate offers a scholarship, we would like to know. If you have an upcoming state convention, we'd like the dates. If there is a unique program in your state that only exists in your geographic boundaries, we'd like you to share it with others. Help us build a complete repository of information that equally shares details about the happenings in your division and affiliate. If you could pass this along to me by Sunday, December 21, you'd be my favorite person. Also, I want to take a moment to thank Peter Donahue for throwing in his technical assistance to help us meet our ambitious deadline. He's good people, and any affiliate and/or division would be fortunate to have him in their corner. Thanks all. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 04:55:53 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:55:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! References: <20081215230231.TXQZ13880.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <00bd01c95f3a$93cfa290$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Congradulations! Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "hannah" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Congrats Harry... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Harry Hogue To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) >Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! >Hello everyone, > >I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish. And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. >Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! >Harry >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 05:35:59 2008 From: jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com (Jessica Kostiw) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:35:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was coming up on CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy that the NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any reason. Beth On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > CONTACT: > > Chris Danielsen > > Public Relations Specialist > > National Federation of the Blind > > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > National Federation of the Blind > Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > > > > Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans > > > > Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris > Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation > of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by > blind people is not blindness itself, but the > stereotypes held by the general public about > blindness and blind people. The idea that blind > people are incapable of the simplest tasks and > are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is > absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes > to an unemployment rate among blind people that > stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why > the National Federation of the Blind is > disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to > portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine > that focused almost exclusively on his > blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is > blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind > children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly > blinded veterans returning from Iraq and > Afghanistan. The National Federation of the > Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live > to consider the serious negative impact that > misinformation and stereotypes have on blind > people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." > > > > > ### > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com From jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 05:46:48 2008 From: jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com (Jessica Kostiw) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:46:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] it jobs problems References: <0B7F1C12BB0F4643AF8EF715A8D65462@marvinPC> <000601c95f04$9de75060$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> Message-ID: <019101c95f41$b052d020$534aa962@Jessica> Antonio, you have to admit that your long commute is the exception and not the rule. 3 hours! I am impressed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:29 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] it jobs problems > Marvin, > > One of your options it to travel 3 or 4 hours a day. I do it, and I am > only living in Providence RI, and working in Boston MA. > > I count my commute time as 20 hours a week. This includes getting to work > about a half an hour before my shift each day, but since I treasure some > down time, or gearing up to a day time, I haven't asked my superiors for > an adjustment. If I did, I'd need to start the day at 8;45, which they > could work with. I get a feeling people like runded up times, get ti work > and leave on the hour, or the half hour. > > I chose where I live, and where I work. I have my own reasons for doing > so, and I take on the 3 hours a day commute as something that comes with > the territory. > > So, if you can get a job that pays well, and that is 3 hours travel round > trip, consider how many other blind, and sighted people do it in > developing countries, or even in the United States. > > Some times you make sacrifices. > > Sincerely, > > Antonio, who is on vacation and doesn't have to travel this week. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marvin Hunkin" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:22 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] it jobs problems > > >> Hi. >> well, have been looking for part time or full time it jobs in devonport >> tas. >> seems a lot of private and government jobs are in Launcestan or Hobart. >> and transport, could be a major problem, to me even getting a chance to >> get >> an interview. >> just starting seriosly to look for jobs. >> put a few feelers, asking for if any companies in devonport, or ulverston >> or >> latrobe, a few it companies. but have not heard back from them. >> so what do you suggest i do? >> as the public transport system, not really that great. >> no passenger trains, only buses, and that would take 3 hours or more out >> of >> my day to travel to Launcestan and return to devonport. >> pity there are no online jobs i could do as a part of a team, from home >> using the internet. >> suppose, most it firms have not the infresturcture to set that up. >> so just wondering, what are my options. >> there might be possible employment with Devon Industries, a supported >> work >> shop, and mainly manufacturing. >> they do have a admin section, but no it. >> they suggested i contact wise or ability employment. >> well, when i was in devonport, before moving to the mainland, then moving >> back to tas. >> long story. >> will not bore you with that, that's for another time and another place. >> so, what do you recommend? >> any suggestions, possible solutions, or work arounds, would be fine. >> or even possible links to possible job vacancies. >> i do not really want to work in a supported work shop, did that about 20 >> years ago at the royal society for the blind of south Australia. >> so what do you suggest? >> at a loss. >> have been looking around for a little while, searching online job sites. >> and get some it jobs, but they are in Launcestan or Hobart. >> any ideas? >> i have seem to hit a brick wall. >> i do get a taxi subsedy. >> but even at 2 days a week, to Launcestan and back, could be quite >> expensive. >> unless, be able to car pool, even if i can get an interview, get short >> listed, and even get the position. >> and even if i bring my laptop, which has jaws. >> really hit a brick wall and need suggestions. >> any one else been in this situation, middle aged, blind and trying to get >> a >> foot into this industry? >> cheers Marvin. >> E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com >> MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com >> Skype: startrekcafe >> We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! >> Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One >> E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com >> MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com >> Skype: startrekcafe >> We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! >> Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com From liz.bottner at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 05:49:38 2008 From: liz.bottner at gmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:49:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! In-Reply-To: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49474148.0610c00a.61b1.4e7c@mx.google.com> Harry, Congrats! That's awesome! Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com From liamskitten at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 06:14:21 2008 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Linda Stover) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:14:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment In-Reply-To: <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> Message-ID: <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> Jo, I couldn't agree more with your remarks. We are constantly demanding to be treated as equal citizens; in this instance, our demand has been met. We are considered equal enough to be paridyed, taking it in the spirit of gest and humor, not a serious attack on the blind population. I also agree with you about the NFB's publicity quota; I think we all know the fairytale of the little boy who cried wolf. I'm afraid that if we as an organization continue to be this sensitive about very minor things, no one will give our words due consideration when a serious matter of discrimination does arise. Courtney On 12/15/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: > I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was coming up on > CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy that the > NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on > SaturdayNight Live Segment > > > Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. > I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be > Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any > reason. > Beth > > On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> >> >> CONTACT: >> >> Chris Danielsen >> >> Public Relations Specialist >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> >> >> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >> >> >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >> stereotypes held by the general public about >> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >> the National Federation of the Blind is >> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >> that focused almost exclusively on his >> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >> blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind >> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >> to consider the serious negative impact that >> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >> >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 07:10:23 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:10:23 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment In-Reply-To: <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I do think there is a fundamental difference between the SNL sketch and the Blindness movie. In the Blindness movie, blindness is used as a means of depicting "the end of the world" or "the collapse of humanity". The intent of the film is to shock, frighten, and disgust viewers and so whether or not viewers actually believe that the depiction of the blind is realistic, they will tend to experience negative emotions while watching the blind characters. The SNL sketch, on the other hand, is designed to make people laugh. Not only is humor at the expense of minorities commonly accepted in our culture, so people probably won't interpret these portrayals as being realistic, but also when people watch the sketch they are in a happy mood and so won't associate blindness with fear and disgust. That said, I'm not thrilled about the way Gov. Paterson was portrayed and I'm glad the NFB made a statement, but I don't think we should be expending as much energy on this as we did with the Blindness film. I also agree with the view that by using blindness as a characteristic to spoof, we are being regarded as part of the mainstream. After all many of us say we'd rather be teased like everyone else than treated with extra kindness and compliments. Perhaps this is really a gesture of inclusion. Arielle On 12/16/08, Linda Stover wrote: > Jo, > > I couldn't agree more with your remarks. We are constantly demanding > to be treated as equal citizens; in this instance, our demand has been > met. We are considered equal enough to be paridyed, taking it in the > spirit of gest and humor, not a serious attack on the blind > population. > > I also agree with you about the NFB's publicity quota; I think we all > know the fairytale of the little boy who cried wolf. I'm afraid that > if we as an organization continue to be this sensitive about very > minor things, no one will give our words due consideration when a > serious matter of discrimination does arise. > Courtney > > On 12/15/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: >> I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was coming up >> on >> CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy that the >> NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on >> SaturdayNight Live Segment >> >> >> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >> reason. >> Beth >> >> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> >>> Chris Danielsen >>> >>> Public Relations Specialist >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >>> >>> >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind >>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From blindjedi at clearwire.net Tue Dec 16 07:43:01 2008 From: blindjedi at clearwire.net (Jedi) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:43:01 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Saturday Night Live skit Message-ID: <6b81d4d60812152343k773fc7f9l39e680d5e3518efc@mail.gmail.com> Hey all. It's been interesting reading the back and forth regarding the recent SNL skit. Personally, I'm glad the National Center staff spoke up. When I first saw the SNL skit, I had a hard time understanding what was so frustrating about it. Then, I read a comment made by a sighted person who saw the skit and said that the fake Paterson was constantly groping for things, disoriented, shifty in body movements as the classical stereotype of blindness suggests, and he was squinting an awful lot. Add these subtle signs to the upside down graph, the comment made about blind/disabled people being off and therefore appropriate for government, and the fact that, at the end of the skit, blindness was clearly named as one reason why Paterson is (but shouldn't be appropriate for the Senate seat, and you have something not only frustrating, but downright damning. Can you imagine what riots would insue if they'd made fun of Paterson's racial make-up? It's one thing to make fun of a politician for whatever she or he might have done in the past (which I find rude anyway), but the whole way blindness was portrayed was a cheap shot and totally unnecessary to the political commentary about the various shananigans politicians get up to from time to time (I.E. sex scandals and drug abuse). I think National's response to "Blindness" can be similarly explained. The fact that blindness was used as a metaphor for ignorance was the least of National's issues with the film. It's a tired metaphor in my opinion; More than that, "Blindness" showed the blind as disgusting and helpless, and it paired sight with civility and dignity. That's a lot more problematic than just a stupid metaphor, don't you think? I think the real issue here is that both cases, the SNL skit and "Blindness," show hidden attitudes about the blind held by the general public. Here's what I gather from both presentations (which I have viewed): the blind are not only unfit for government, but we're disgusting people who lay waste to everything we touch; we are incapable of guiding ourselves let alone caring for our personal needs; we are just a little off along with the rest of the disabled community. If you think about it, the only thing that makes "blindness" work as a modern parable and the sNL skit work as comedy is the fact that folks view some truth in the images portrayed. If the SNL skit and the "Blindness" film don't get you frustrated, that should. I just want to point out one more thing before I go. Blindness has captured the imagination of the public for a long time, and it's been used in plays and popular literature (including film and music) since classical antiquity. Remember Dr. Jernigan's analysis of blindness in literture? I saw a lot of similarities between these modern depictions of blindness and those done in the middle ages. And while i'm sure no direct harm toward blind people was ever meant on the part of the artistic public, it still frustrates me all the same. -- Respectfully, Jedi From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Dec 16 08:21:03 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:21:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <20081215233905.GB81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. As for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. Best, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. Joseph On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >Hi, > >Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >article I liked on Facebook, see below. > >NY Times: >http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) > >You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >881501/ > >You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >that does a real time search: >http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. > >Best, >Mika >Twitter Micro blog: >http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >Facebook: >http://profile.to/mika > >On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >> exactly the comics were paridying. >> Courtney >> >> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>> reason. >>> Beth >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> >>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>> Americans >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >> ail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Dec 16 08:27:44 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:27:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry to post a second time on the same topic, but here is my issue: we're not being made fun of on the same level as the sighted people on shows like this. If stumbling around was something Gov Paterson actually did, then that makes sense to use that as a trademark to make him instantly recognizable on comedic shows like SNL. But since he doesn't, why use it? If he squints, sure, use that too if you want, but surely he wouldn't hold up a piece of paper upside down unless he's proved himself to be incompetent enough to do that whether he could see properly or not. So blast blind people identically as you would the sighted, but don't make their blindness part of the sketch as something that could detract from their competency, unless they have clearly demonstrated that it does. Thank you for reading this. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Linda Stover Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:14 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment Jo, I couldn't agree more with your remarks. We are constantly demanding to be treated as equal citizens; in this instance, our demand has been met. We are considered equal enough to be paridyed, taking it in the spirit of gest and humor, not a serious attack on the blind population. I also agree with you about the NFB's publicity quota; I think we all know the fairytale of the little boy who cried wolf. I'm afraid that if we as an organization continue to be this sensitive about very minor things, no one will give our words due consideration when a serious matter of discrimination does arise. Courtney On 12/15/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: > I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was coming up on > CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy that the > NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on > SaturdayNight Live Segment > > > Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. > I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be > Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any > reason. > Beth > > On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> >> >> CONTACT: >> >> Chris Danielsen >> >> Public Relations Specialist >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> >> >> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >> >> >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >> stereotypes held by the general public about >> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >> the National Federation of the Blind is >> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >> that focused almost exclusively on his >> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >> blind is an attack on all blind Americans-blind >> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >> to consider the serious negative impact that >> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >> >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm ail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gm ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail. com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From corbbo at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 10:45:35 2008 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:45:35 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0FA686AE-85E7-4AAB-9A9A-DA44C7133805@gmail.com> On a lighter side, did anybody else notice that the press release did not "condemn and deplore" the actions? Note that the leadership is only "disappointed" with the sketch. I'm glad that our press releases and organizational resolutions have gotten over that...at least for now...:grin: Corbb On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: I'm sorry to post a second time on the same topic, but here is my issue: we're not being made fun of on the same level as the sighted people on shows like this. If stumbling around was something Gov Paterson actually did, then that makes sense to use that as a trademark to make him instantly recognizable on comedic shows like SNL. But since he doesn't, why use it? If he squints, sure, use that too if you want, but surely he wouldn't hold up a piece of paper upside down unless he's proved himself to be incompetent enough to do that whether he could see properly or not. So blast blind people identically as you would the sighted, but don't make their blindness part of the sketch as something that could detract from their competency, unless they have clearly demonstrated that it does. Thank you for reading this. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Linda Stover Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:14 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment Jo, I couldn't agree more with your remarks. We are constantly demanding to be treated as equal citizens; in this instance, our demand has been met. We are considered equal enough to be paridyed, taking it in the spirit of gest and humor, not a serious attack on the blind population. I also agree with you about the NFB's publicity quota; I think we all know the fairytale of the little boy who cried wolf. I'm afraid that if we as an organization continue to be this sensitive about very minor things, no one will give our words due consideration when a serious matter of discrimination does arise. Courtney On 12/15/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: > I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was > coming up on > CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy > that the > NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on > SaturdayNight Live Segment > > > Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. > I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be > Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any > reason. > Beth > > On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >> >> >> >> CONTACT: >> >> Chris Danielsen >> >> Public Relations Specialist >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> >> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >> >> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >> >> cdanielsen at nfb.org >> >> >> >> National Federation of the Blind >> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> >> >> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >> Americans >> >> >> >> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >> stereotypes held by the general public about >> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >> the National Federation of the Blind is >> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >> that focused almost exclusively on his >> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >> blind is an attack on all blind Americans-blind >> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >> to consider the serious negative impact that >> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >> >> >> >> >> ### >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm ail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gm ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail . com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Tue Dec 16 11:05:53 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:05:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In high school I got them to show me the way ahead of time. In college I decided I would be ok just following the person in front of me. It was my brother, so thought I was safe. He started college before me, transferred in to where I was, and ended up graduating at the same time. Anyway, the problem turned out to be that he was drunk at the ceremony, so he, and I turned the wrong way! Dave At 08:26 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >Hello everyone, > >I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's >office to make arrangements for a guide. > >I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about >walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What >have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk >up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is >there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts? > >P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but >that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for >a guide if they wish. > >Harry >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1842 - Release Date: >12/10/2008 6:53 PM From dandrews at visi.com Tue Dec 16 11:16:52 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:16:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] it jobs problems In-Reply-To: <019101c95f41$b052d020$534aa962@Jessica> References: <0B7F1C12BB0F4643AF8EF715A8D65462@marvinPC> <000601c95f04$9de75060$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> <019101c95f41$b052d020$534aa962@Jessica> Message-ID: My commute is an hour 45 minutes, each way, or 3 and a half hours a day. I do it to be near my kids. Dave At 11:46 PM 12/15/2008, you wrote: >Antonio, you have to admit that your long commute is the exception >and not the rule. 3 hours! I am impressed! >----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:29 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] it jobs problems > > >>Marvin, >> >>One of your options it to travel 3 or 4 hours a day. I do it, and I >>am only living in Providence RI, and working in Boston MA. >> >>I count my commute time as 20 hours a week. This includes getting >>to work about a half an hour before my shift each day, but since I >>treasure some down time, or gearing up to a day time, I haven't >>asked my superiors for an adjustment. If I did, I'd need to start >>the day at 8;45, which they could work with. I get a feeling people >>like runded up times, get ti work and leave on the hour, or the half hour. >> >>I chose where I live, and where I work. I have my own reasons for >>doing so, and I take on the 3 hours a day commute as something that >>comes with the territory. >> >>So, if you can get a job that pays well, and that is 3 hours travel >>round trip, consider how many other blind, and sighted people do it >>in developing countries, or even in the United States. >> >>Some times you make sacrifices. >> >>Sincerely, >> >>Antonio, who is on vacation and doesn't have to travel this week. >> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Hunkin" >>To: >>Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:22 AM >>Subject: [nabs-l] it jobs problems >> >> >>>Hi. >>>well, have been looking for part time or full time it jobs in devonport tas. >>>seems a lot of private and government jobs are in Launcestan or Hobart. >>>and transport, could be a major problem, to me even getting a chance to get >>>an interview. >>>just starting seriosly to look for jobs. >>>put a few feelers, asking for if any companies in devonport, or ulverston or >>>latrobe, a few it companies. but have not heard back from them. >>>so what do you suggest i do? >>>as the public transport system, not really that great. >>>no passenger trains, only buses, and that would take 3 hours or more out of >>>my day to travel to Launcestan and return to devonport. >>>pity there are no online jobs i could do as a part of a team, from home >>>using the internet. >>>suppose, most it firms have not the infresturcture to set that up. >>>so just wondering, what are my options. >>>there might be possible employment with Devon Industries, a supported work >>>shop, and mainly manufacturing. >>>they do have a admin section, but no it. >>>they suggested i contact wise or ability employment. >>>well, when i was in devonport, before moving to the mainland, then moving >>>back to tas. >>>long story. >>>will not bore you with that, that's for another time and another place. >>>so, what do you recommend? >>>any suggestions, possible solutions, or work arounds, would be fine. >>>or even possible links to possible job vacancies. >>>i do not really want to work in a supported work shop, did that about 20 >>>years ago at the royal society for the blind of south Australia. >>>so what do you suggest? >>>at a loss. >>>have been looking around for a little while, searching online job sites. >>>and get some it jobs, but they are in Launcestan or Hobart. >>>any ideas? >>>i have seem to hit a brick wall. >>>i do get a taxi subsedy. >>>but even at 2 days a week, to Launcestan and back, could be quite expensive. >>>unless, be able to car pool, even if i can get an interview, get short >>>listed, and even get the position. >>>and even if i bring my laptop, which has jaws. >>>really hit a brick wall and need suggestions. >>>any one else been in this situation, middle aged, blind and trying to get a >>>foot into this industry? >>>cheers Marvin. >>>E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com >>>MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com >>>Skype: startrekcafe >>>We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! >>>Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One >>>E-mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com >>>MSN: sttartrekcafe at msn.com >>>Skype: startrekcafe >>>We Are The Borg! You Will Be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! >>>Star Trek Voyager Episode 68 Scorpian Part One >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com >> > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1849 - Release Date: >12/15/2008 9:01 AM From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 11:33:21 2008 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:33:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <115660C33058438388CF8A1835F21C03@Dezman> Congrads Harry. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Hello everyone, I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish. And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 16:32:07 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:32:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <0FA686AE-85E7-4AAB-9A9A-DA44C7133805@gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> <0FA686AE-85E7-4AAB-9A9A-DA44C7133805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812160832m4d215c55if0874df5d10efc21@mail.gmail.com> You're right, but I'd rather not be made fun of for my mild head wobbling and my blindness. I'd rather be the one makig fun of the others. Beth On 12/16/08, Corbb O'Connor wrote: > On a lighter side, did anybody else notice that the press release did > not "condemn and deplore" the actions? Note that the leadership is > only "disappointed" with the sketch. I'm glad that our press releases > and organizational resolutions have gotten over that...at least for > now...:grin: > > Corbb > > > On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: > > I'm sorry to post a second time on the same topic, but here is my issue: > we're not being made fun of on the same level as the sighted people on > shows > like this. If stumbling around was something Gov Paterson actually > did, then > that makes sense to use that as a trademark to make him instantly > recognizable on comedic shows like SNL. But since he doesn't, why use > it? If > he squints, sure, use that too if you want, but surely he wouldn't > hold up a > piece of paper upside down unless he's proved himself to be incompetent > enough to do that whether he could see properly or not. So blast blind > people identically as you would the sighted, but don't make their > blindness > part of the sketch as something that could detract from their > competency, > unless they have clearly demonstrated that it does. > Thank you for reading this. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Linda Stover > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:14 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on > SaturdayNight Live Segment > > Jo, > > I couldn't agree more with your remarks. We are constantly demanding > to be treated as equal citizens; in this instance, our demand has been > met. We are considered equal enough to be paridyed, taking it in the > spirit of gest and humor, not a serious attack on the blind > population. > > I also agree with you about the NFB's publicity quota; I think we all > know the fairytale of the little boy who cried wolf. I'm afraid that > if we as an organization continue to be this sensitive about very > minor things, no one will give our words due consideration when a > serious matter of discrimination does arise. > Courtney > > On 12/15/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: >> I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was >> coming up > on >> CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy >> that the >> NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Beth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on >> SaturdayNight Live Segment >> >> >> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >> reason. >> Beth >> >> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>> >>> >>> >>> CONTACT: >>> >>> Chris Danielsen >>> >>> Public Relations Specialist >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>> >>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>> >>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>> >>> >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind >>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>> Americans >>> >>> >>> >>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans-blind >>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ### >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm > ail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gm > ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail > . > com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com Tue Dec 16 18:00:13 2008 From: Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com (Rachel Becker) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:00:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wow! Talk about family drama... and I thought my brother was annoying. I guess you were pretty mad at him. I hope that at least people realized that it was his fault and not yours. Rachel -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of David Andrews Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:06 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In high school I got them to show me the way ahead of time. In college I decided I would be ok just following the person in front of me. It was my brother, so thought I was safe. He started college before me, transferred in to where I was, and ended up graduating at the same time. Anyway, the problem turned out to be that he was drunk at the ceremony, so he, and I turned the wrong way! Dave At 08:26 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >Hello everyone, > >I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's >office to make arrangements for a guide. > >I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about >walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What >have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk >up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who ever else is >there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts? > >P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but >that the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for >a guide if they wish. > >Harry >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1842 - Release Date: >12/10/2008 6:53 PM _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rachel%40beckerconsu ltants.com From sarah at growingstrong.org Tue Dec 16 17:59:34 2008 From: sarah at growingstrong.org (Sarah J. Blake) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:59:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com><00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica><7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com><0FA686AE-85E7-4AAB-9A9A-DA44C7133805@gmail.com> <4383d01d0812160832m4d215c55if0874df5d10efc21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <088b01c95fa8$0f892380$6501a8c0@SBLAPTOP> Hmm. Maybe the problem is that nobody really likes to be made fun of but nobody seems to be able to resist the urge to make fun of other people... Sarah J. Blake http://www.growingstrong.org sjblake at growingstrong.org I'm protected by SpamBrave http://www.spambrave.com/ From jj at bestmidi.com Tue Dec 16 19:36:36 2008 From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:36:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment References: <20081215233905.GB81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting stupid or > are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to make it look > like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of the camera for > other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, > but > it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of > political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I have > never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little thing > that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official > statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and > reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts about > real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions > of > people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people > important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of > society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >>aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >>heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >>post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >>> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>>> reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > From jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 21:32:18 2008 From: jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com (Jessica Kostiw) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:32:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind CommentsonSaturday Night Live Segment References: Message-ID: <00d601c95fc5$c68f5cd0$534aa962@Jessica> Joe, you do have a good point. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind CommentsonSaturday Night Live Segment > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, > but > it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of > political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I have > never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little thing > that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official > statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and > reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts about > real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions > of > people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people > important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of > society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >>aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >>heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >>post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >>> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>>> reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Dec 16 21:56:54 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:56:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <20081215233905.GB81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Hi, Sorry for the anger. Where have you found such characters? I'm definitely willing to be proven wrong. Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting stupid or > are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to make it look > like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of the camera for > other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, > but > it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of > political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I have > never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little thing > that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official > statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and > reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts about > real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions > of > people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people > important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of > society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >>aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >>heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >>post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >>> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>>> reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 22:13:58 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:13:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <49482829.48c3f10a.7720.3a9a@mx.google.com> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting stupid or > are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to make it look > like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of the camera for > other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, > but > it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of > political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I have > never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little thing > that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official > statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and > reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts about > real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions > of > people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people > important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of > society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >>aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >>heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >>post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >>> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>>> reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com From harryhogue at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 00:12:31 2008 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] My Minneapolis, Minnesota Blog Message-ID: <56209.59851.qm@web33507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone,   I have told all of you at one time or another about my plans to go to Minneapolis, Minnesota for training in blindness skills (general home management, getting more comfortable using public transportation, moving about in a city environment, use of power tools, etc).  I also mentioned that I would have a blog to chronicle my experiences while in Minneapolis.  As promised, here it is.  The address is harryhogue.blogspot.com.  As I mention in my first post, I intend for the posts to be daily, but this may change depending on my schedule and how inclined I actually am for writing.  Photos will also be provided when I have the time/when they are appropriate, etc.   Until next time,   Harry Hogue   From dlawless86 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 00:34:38 2008 From: dlawless86 at gmail.com (Domonique Lawless) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:34:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind CommentsonSaturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <00d601c95fc5$c68f5cd0$534aa962@Jessica> References: <00d601c95fc5$c68f5cd0$534aa962@Jessica> Message-ID: <423e6e460812161634m3e2279b2t3e2ec5fb2832187e@mail.gmail.com> Hi listers, One thing to consider is that the people that are made fun of on SNL usually do something to provoke the parodies that are created by the comedy writers. Also, when you put yourself or are put in the public's eye you are going to get feedback of every kind, including a little teasing. I watch SNL when I can, and find some things funny and some things not so funny. The Governor Patterson skit wasn't very humorous to me for the simple fact that I found the skit to be poorly written and to use very dry humor. We also have to remember that SNL makes fun of everyone and that by Patterson's lack of skills and alternative techniques he kind of set himself up for this to happen. I don't necessarily think that the NFB should get up in arms about this for the simple fact that shows like SNL and Mad TV make fun of minority groups all the time and we don't hear about African Americans Hispanics or Asians sending out massive press releases. If we just let it die down then after a while people will go about their lives and forget about the awkward blind man portrayed on SNL. Sorry if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I'm just a little frazzled from trying to get last minute things done before its all due at the end of the Semester. Best Wishes, Domonique On 12/16/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: > Joe, you do have a good point. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Orozco" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind CommentsonSaturday > Night Live Segment > > >> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, >> but >> it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of >> political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I have >> never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little thing >> that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official >> statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and >> reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts about >> real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions >> of >> people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >> As >> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >> people >> important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of >> society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >> M. >> Barrie >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of T. Joseph Carter >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday >> Night Live Segment >> >> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >> >> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>> >>>NY Times: >>>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >>>aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>> >>>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >>>881501/ >>> >>>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>that does a real time search: >>>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >>>heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >>>post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>> >>>Best, >>>Mika >>>Twitter Micro blog: >>>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>Facebook: >>>http://profile.to/mika >>> >>>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >>>> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>> Courtney >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>>>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>>>> reason. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>> >>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>> >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>> Americans >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>>40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dlawless86%40gmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 01:28:39 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:28:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals Message-ID: Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through the nightmare... >Twas the night before finals, >And all through the college, >The students were praying >For last minute knowledge. > >Most were quite sleepy, >But none touched their beds, >While visions of essays >danced in their heads. > >Out in the taverns, >A few were still drinking, >And hoping that liquor >would loosen up their thinking. > >In my own apartment >I had been pacing, >And dreading exams >I soon would be facing. > >My roommate was speechless, >His nose in his books, >And my comments to him >Drew unfriendly looks. > >I drained all the coffee, >And brewed a new pot, >No longer caring >That my nerves were shot. > >I stared at my notes, >But my thoughts were muddy, >My eyes went ablur, >I just couldn't study. > >"Some pizza might help," >I said with a shiver, >But each place I called >Refused to deliver. > >I'd nearly concluded >That life was too cruel, >With futures depending >On grades had in school. > >When all of a sudden, >Our door opened wide, >And Patron Saint Put It Off >Ambled inside. > >Her spirit was careless, >Her manner was mellow, >She started to bellow: > >"What kind of student >Would make such a fuss, >To toss back at teachers >What they tossed at us?" > >"On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >On Last Year's Exams! >On Wingit and Slingit, >And Last Minute Crams!" > >Her message delivered, >She vanished from sight, >But we heard her laughing >Outside in the night. > >"Your teachers have pegged you, >So just do your best. >Happy Finals to All, >And to All, a good test." From hjones711 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 01:48:23 2008 From: hjones711 at gmail.com (hannah jones) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:48:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49485A67.7000605@gmail.com> finals are over for me, but i understand that. Joe Orozco wrote: > Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through the > nightmare... > > > > >> Twas the night before finals, >> And all through the college, >> The students were praying >> For last minute knowledge. >> >> Most were quite sleepy, >> But none touched their beds, >> While visions of essays >> danced in their heads. >> >> Out in the taverns, >> A few were still drinking, >> And hoping that liquor >> would loosen up their thinking. >> >> In my own apartment >> I had been pacing, >> And dreading exams >> I soon would be facing. >> >> My roommate was speechless, >> His nose in his books, >> And my comments to him >> Drew unfriendly looks. >> >> I drained all the coffee, >> And brewed a new pot, >> No longer caring >> That my nerves were shot. >> >> I stared at my notes, >> But my thoughts were muddy, >> My eyes went ablur, >> I just couldn't study. >> >> "Some pizza might help," >> I said with a shiver, >> But each place I called >> Refused to deliver. >> >> I'd nearly concluded >> That life was too cruel, >> With futures depending >> On grades had in school. >> >> When all of a sudden, >> Our door opened wide, >> And Patron Saint Put It Off >> Ambled inside. >> >> Her spirit was careless, >> Her manner was mellow, >> She started to bellow: >> >> "What kind of student >> Would make such a fuss, >> To toss back at teachers >> What they tossed at us?" >> >> "On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >> On Last Year's Exams! >> On Wingit and Slingit, >> And Last Minute Crams!" >> >> Her message delivered, >> She vanished from sight, >> But we heard her laughing >> Outside in the night. >> >> "Your teachers have pegged you, >> So just do your best. >> Happy Finals to All, >> And to All, a good test." >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.com > > From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Wed Dec 17 02:13:19 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:13:19 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals Message-ID: <20081217021318.IKTE14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> My finals don't start until January 23rd... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: hannah jones To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:48:23 -0600 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals >finals are over for me, but i understand that. >Joe Orozco wrote: >> Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through the >> nightmare... >>> Twas the night before finals, >>> And all through the college, >>> The students were praying >>> For last minute knowledge. >>> Most were quite sleepy, >>> But none touched their beds, >>> While visions of essays >>> danced in their heads. >>> Out in the taverns, >>> A few were still drinking, >>> And hoping that liquor >>> would loosen up their thinking. >>> In my own apartment >>> I had been pacing, >>> And dreading exams >>> I soon would be facing. >>> My roommate was speechless, >>> His nose in his books, >>> And my comments to him >>> Drew unfriendly looks. >>> I drained all the coffee, >>> And brewed a new pot, >>> No longer caring >>> That my nerves were shot. >>> I stared at my notes, >>> But my thoughts were muddy, >>> My eyes went ablur, >>> I just couldn't study. >>> "Some pizza might help," >>> I said with a shiver, >>> But each place I called >>> Refused to deliver. >>> I'd nearly concluded >>> That life was too cruel, >>> With futures depending >>> On grades had in school. >>> When all of a sudden, >>> Our door opened wide, >>> And Patron Saint Put It Off >>> Ambled inside. >>> Her spirit was careless, >>> Her manner was mellow, >>> She started to bellow: >>> "What kind of student >>> Would make such a fuss, >>> To toss back at teachers >>> What they tossed at us?" >>> "On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >>> On Last Year's Exams! >>> On Wingit and Slingit, >>> And Last Minute Crams!" >>> Her message delivered, >>> She vanished from sight, >>> But we heard her laughing >>> Outside in the night. >>> "Your teachers have pegged you, >>> So just do your best. >>> Happy Finals to All, >>> And to All, a good test." >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711 %40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 02:30:47 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:30:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <49482829.48c3f10a.7720.3a9a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 02:56:04 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:56:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals In-Reply-To: <20081217021318.IKTE14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> References: <20081217021318.IKTE14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Message-ID: <49486a48.1e078e0a.061f.ffff8d10@mx.google.com> My one and only final was today. I had 2 other classes that did not have finals that finished last week. I'm done until Jan 7 now. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of hannah Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:13 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals My finals don't start until January 23rd... > ----- Original Message ----- >From: hannah jones To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:48:23 -0600 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals >finals are over for me, but i understand that. >Joe Orozco wrote: >> Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through the >> nightmare... >>> Twas the night before finals, >>> And all through the college, >>> The students were praying >>> For last minute knowledge. >>> Most were quite sleepy, >>> But none touched their beds, >>> While visions of essays >>> danced in their heads. >>> Out in the taverns, >>> A few were still drinking, >>> And hoping that liquor >>> would loosen up their thinking. >>> In my own apartment >>> I had been pacing, >>> And dreading exams >>> I soon would be facing. >>> My roommate was speechless, >>> His nose in his books, >>> And my comments to him >>> Drew unfriendly looks. >>> I drained all the coffee, >>> And brewed a new pot, >>> No longer caring >>> That my nerves were shot. >>> I stared at my notes, >>> But my thoughts were muddy, >>> My eyes went ablur, >>> I just couldn't study. >>> "Some pizza might help," >>> I said with a shiver, >>> But each place I called >>> Refused to deliver. >>> I'd nearly concluded >>> That life was too cruel, >>> With futures depending >>> On grades had in school. >>> When all of a sudden, >>> Our door opened wide, >>> And Patron Saint Put It Off >>> Ambled inside. >>> Her spirit was careless, >>> Her manner was mellow, >>> She started to bellow: >>> "What kind of student >>> Would make such a fuss, >>> To toss back at teachers >>> What they tossed at us?" >>> "On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >>> On Last Year's Exams! >>> On Wingit and Slingit, >>> And Last Minute Crams!" >>> Her message delivered, >>> She vanished from sight, >>> But we heard her laughing >>> Outside in the night. >>> "Your teachers have pegged you, >>> So just do your best. >>> Happy Finals to All, >>> And to All, a good test." >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711 %40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1849 - Release Date: 12/15/2008 9:01 AM From amylsabo at comcast.net Wed Dec 17 03:11:37 2008 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:11:37 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] My Minneapolis, Minnesota Blog Message-ID: <121720080311.18251.49486DE9000CC32D0000474B2200734830010D0E9C0497030E@comcast.net> hello harry, thanks for sharing this awesome news with us! i will definately will have to check this out. thanks again, and i will talk to you soon! hugs, amy -------------- Original message -------------- From: Harry Hogue > Hello everyone, > > I have told all of you at one time or another about my plans to go to > Minneapolis, Minnesota for training in blindness skills (general home > management, getting more comfortable using public transportation, moving about > in a city environment, use of power tools, etc). I also mentioned that I would > have a blog to chronicle my experiences while in Minneapolis. As promised, here > it is. The address is harryhogue.blogspot.com. As I mention in my first post, > I intend for the posts to be daily, but this may change depending on my schedule > and how inclined I actually am for writing. Photos will also be provided when I > have the time/when they are appropriate, etc. > > Until next time, > > Harry Hogue > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From jj at bestmidi.com Wed Dec 17 03:12:10 2008 From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:12:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of theBlind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment References: <20081215233905.GB81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <37925919748E42308FA68C6AEAC3EF6E@jsquared> There was a major character in the CBS comedy Becker for starters who was blind. And don't forget about BLind Justice. There's more as well. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of theBlind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment > Hi, > Sorry for the anger. Where have you found such characters? I'm definitely > willing to be proven wrong. > Sarah > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of J.J. Meddaugh > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind > characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. > Personally, I found the skit funny. > > J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com > A premier licensed Code Factory distributor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > >>I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. >> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting stupid >> or >> are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to make it look >> like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of the camera for >> other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Joe Orozco >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday >> Night Live Segment >> >> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, >> but >> it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of >> political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I >> have >> never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little >> thing >> that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official >> statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and >> reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts >> about >> real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions >> of >> people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >> As >> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >> people >> important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of >> society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >> M. >> Barrie >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of T. Joseph Carter >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday >> Night Live Segment >> >> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >> >> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>> >>>NY Times: >>>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >>>aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>> >>>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >>>881501/ >>> >>>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>that does a real time search: >>>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >>>heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >>>post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>> >>>Best, >>>Mika >>>Twitter Micro blog: >>>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>Facebook: >>>http://profile.to/mika >>> >>>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >>>> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>> Courtney >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>>>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>>>> reason. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>> >>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>> >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>> Americans >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>>40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > From kitty1488 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 03:27:44 2008 From: kitty1488 at gmail.com (Krista Pennell) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:27:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals In-Reply-To: <49485A67.7000605@gmail.com> References: <49485A67.7000605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601c95ff7$6e1cecc0$4a56c640$@com> Roommate and I just had a good laugh over that one. Brilliant! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of hannah jones Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals finals are over for me, but i understand that. Joe Orozco wrote: > Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through the > nightmare... > > > > >> Twas the night before finals, >> And all through the college, >> The students were praying >> For last minute knowledge. >> >> Most were quite sleepy, >> But none touched their beds, >> While visions of essays >> danced in their heads. >> >> Out in the taverns, >> A few were still drinking, >> And hoping that liquor >> would loosen up their thinking. >> >> In my own apartment >> I had been pacing, >> And dreading exams >> I soon would be facing. >> >> My roommate was speechless, >> His nose in his books, >> And my comments to him >> Drew unfriendly looks. >> >> I drained all the coffee, >> And brewed a new pot, >> No longer caring >> That my nerves were shot. >> >> I stared at my notes, >> But my thoughts were muddy, >> My eyes went ablur, >> I just couldn't study. >> >> "Some pizza might help," >> I said with a shiver, >> But each place I called >> Refused to deliver. >> >> I'd nearly concluded >> That life was too cruel, >> With futures depending >> On grades had in school. >> >> When all of a sudden, >> Our door opened wide, >> And Patron Saint Put It Off >> Ambled inside. >> >> Her spirit was careless, >> Her manner was mellow, >> She started to bellow: >> >> "What kind of student >> Would make such a fuss, >> To toss back at teachers >> What they tossed at us?" >> >> "On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >> On Last Year's Exams! >> On Wingit and Slingit, >> And Last Minute Crams!" >> >> Her message delivered, >> She vanished from sight, >> But we heard her laughing >> Outside in the night. >> >> "Your teachers have pegged you, >> So just do your best. >> Happy Finals to All, >> And to All, a good test." >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.co m > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kitty1488%40gmail.co m From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 03:34:56 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:34:56 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection Message-ID: Hello all, This year I moved to Boulder, CO, after spending my entire life living in Phoenix, Arizona where the coldest winter days get down to 40 degrees. I've been learning a lot over the past few weeks about traveling in the cold and snow and have actually found it to be a lot less daunting than I expected! The only thing I haven't quite figured out yet is how to keep my ears warm without losing too much environmental sound. When traffic sounds are already muffled by snow I want to be able to hear as much of what remains as I can for good orientation, but I also don't want to freeze my ears off! Suggestions? Arielle From brsmith2424 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 04:06:58 2008 From: brsmith2424 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:06:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Lost in Translation Message-ID: Is there a way I can translate text from .brf to .txt, .rtf, .html, or another usable format so I can read on my computer? I started using web-Braille two years ago: I downloaded the .brf file from the site, then I'd always use commands in Duxbury to translate the file from Braille to readable text, and just read with jaws from there. However, I don't have access to duxbury anymore and would rather not pay hundreds of dollars to download a complex system where the only thing I could see myself using on a regular basis is the translate command. Are there any other, preferably free and easy, methods to translate a braille file to readable text? For the record, I do understand that the point of web-Braille is to allow patrons to read files on a machine such as the Braillenote which supports the specific format and includes a Braille display. However, since translation is readily available in duxbury, I don't think I'm breaking any rules by converting the file for personal use. P.S. Excelent film (see subject) - Brice From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 04:27:01 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:27:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals References: <20081217021318.IKTE14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> <49486a48.1e078e0a.061f.ffff8d10@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <003b01c95fff$b5bdbde0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> I have class on Satterday but it is not a final and I don't go back until January 10th. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Spaulding" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals > My one and only final was today. I had 2 other classes that did not have > finals that finished last week. I'm done until Jan 7 now. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of hannah > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:13 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals > > My finals don't start until January 23rd... > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: hannah jones >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:48:23 -0600 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals > >>finals are over for me, but i understand that. > > >>Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through > the >>> nightmare... > > > > >>>> Twas the night before finals, >>>> And all through the college, >>>> The students were praying >>>> For last minute knowledge. > >>>> Most were quite sleepy, >>>> But none touched their beds, >>>> While visions of essays >>>> danced in their heads. > >>>> Out in the taverns, >>>> A few were still drinking, >>>> And hoping that liquor >>>> would loosen up their thinking. > >>>> In my own apartment >>>> I had been pacing, >>>> And dreading exams >>>> I soon would be facing. > >>>> My roommate was speechless, >>>> His nose in his books, >>>> And my comments to him >>>> Drew unfriendly looks. > >>>> I drained all the coffee, >>>> And brewed a new pot, >>>> No longer caring >>>> That my nerves were shot. > >>>> I stared at my notes, >>>> But my thoughts were muddy, >>>> My eyes went ablur, >>>> I just couldn't study. > >>>> "Some pizza might help," >>>> I said with a shiver, >>>> But each place I called >>>> Refused to deliver. > >>>> I'd nearly concluded >>>> That life was too cruel, >>>> With futures depending >>>> On grades had in school. > >>>> When all of a sudden, >>>> Our door opened wide, >>>> And Patron Saint Put It Off >>>> Ambled inside. > >>>> Her spirit was careless, >>>> Her manner was mellow, >>>> She started to bellow: > >>>> "What kind of student >>>> Would make such a fuss, >>>> To toss back at teachers >>>> What they tossed at us?" > >>>> "On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >>>> On Last Year's Exams! >>>> On Wingit and Slingit, >>>> And Last Minute Crams!" > >>>> Her message delivered, >>>> She vanished from sight, >>>> But we heard her laughing >>>> Outside in the night. > >>>> "Your teachers have pegged you, >>>> So just do your best. >>>> Happy Finals to All, >>>> And to All, a good test." > > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711 > %40gmail.com > > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm > ail.com > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1849 - Release Date: > 12/15/2008 > 9:01 AM > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com > From marty.rahn at juno.com Wed Dec 17 06:53:06 2008 From: marty.rahn at juno.com (Marty Rahn) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:53:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection References: Message-ID: Arielle, The best way I've found for dealing with this issue is to get a knitted stocking cap that you can pull down over your ears. They don't seem to block out as much sound as ear muffs or hoods do. HTH. Marty Rahn President, Colorado Association of Blind Students Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Colorado (Greeley Chapter) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:34 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection > Hello all, > > This year I moved to Boulder, CO, after spending my entire life living > in Phoenix, Arizona where the coldest winter days get down to 40 > degrees. I've been learning a lot over the past few weeks about > traveling in the cold and snow and have actually found it to be a lot > less daunting than I expected! The only thing I haven't quite figured > out yet is how to keep my ears warm without losing too much > environmental sound. When traffic sounds are already muffled by snow I > want to be able to hear as much of what remains as I can for good > orientation, but I also don't want to freeze my ears off! > > Suggestions? > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marty.rahn%40juno.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1852 - Release Date: 12/16/2008 6:11 PM ____________________________________________________________ Click to find information on your credit score and your credit report. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2Oy9YLJMfL3IYeD6rxqM5Vjobv5aXy13MTucx75gkv11Gp7/ From freedmas at stolaf.edu Wed Dec 17 07:02:42 2008 From: freedmas at stolaf.edu (Sydney Walker Freedman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 01:02:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <922c02e40812162302s44b44d62xe6839f0f89a0e6fa@mail.gmail.com> Hello from your friend Sydney in MN, where it feels like negative twenty-something, it's windy, and it's SNOWING! :) my personal favorite is to completely hide my face inside the hood of my favorite hoodie, pulling it completely tight with a drawstring; I then zip my coat shut over it and put my coat hood down. I look really "scary" and funny, and my friends get a kick out of talking to a hood and are envious of having to keep there faces partially bare in order to see. :) My second favorite thing is to wrap a scarf around my ears and face. I haven't had any trouble hearing with either of these methods, though I must confess that half of the point is to look silly and to make my friends, teachers, etc. laugh at the faceless person walking around. :) I'm not sure how helpful you'll find these suggestions, but I couldn't help myself from posting. Winter wishes, Sydney (whose radiator is broken and who doesn't mind :) ) On 12/16/08, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hello all, > > This year I moved to Boulder, CO, after spending my entire life living > in Phoenix, Arizona where the coldest winter days get down to 40 > degrees. I've been learning a lot over the past few weeks about > traveling in the cold and snow and have actually found it to be a lot > less daunting than I expected! The only thing I haven't quite figured > out yet is how to keep my ears warm without losing too much > environmental sound. When traffic sounds are already muffled by snow I > want to be able to hear as much of what remains as I can for good > orientation, but I also don't want to freeze my ears off! > > Suggestions? > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freedmas%40stolaf.edu > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 12:50:49 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:50:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals In-Reply-To: <003b01c95fff$b5bdbde0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <20081217021318.IKTE14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> <49486a48.1e078e0a.061f.ffff8d10@mx.google.com> <003b01c95fff$b5bdbde0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812170450y7685c5adpe33714897fedc562@mail.gmail.com> OMG, that is sooooooo funny. Beth On 12/16/08, Rania wrote: > I have class on Satterday but it is not a final and I don't go back until > January 10th. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Spaulding" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:56 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals > > >> My one and only final was today. I had 2 other classes that did not have >> finals that finished last week. I'm done until Jan 7 now. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of hannah >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:13 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals >> >> My finals don't start until January 23rd... >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>From: hannah jones >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:48:23 -0600 >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals >> >>>finals are over for me, but i understand that. >> >> >>>Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through >> the >>>> nightmare... >> >> >> >> >>>>> Twas the night before finals, >>>>> And all through the college, >>>>> The students were praying >>>>> For last minute knowledge. >> >>>>> Most were quite sleepy, >>>>> But none touched their beds, >>>>> While visions of essays >>>>> danced in their heads. >> >>>>> Out in the taverns, >>>>> A few were still drinking, >>>>> And hoping that liquor >>>>> would loosen up their thinking. >> >>>>> In my own apartment >>>>> I had been pacing, >>>>> And dreading exams >>>>> I soon would be facing. >> >>>>> My roommate was speechless, >>>>> His nose in his books, >>>>> And my comments to him >>>>> Drew unfriendly looks. >> >>>>> I drained all the coffee, >>>>> And brewed a new pot, >>>>> No longer caring >>>>> That my nerves were shot. >> >>>>> I stared at my notes, >>>>> But my thoughts were muddy, >>>>> My eyes went ablur, >>>>> I just couldn't study. >> >>>>> "Some pizza might help," >>>>> I said with a shiver, >>>>> But each place I called >>>>> Refused to deliver. >> >>>>> I'd nearly concluded >>>>> That life was too cruel, >>>>> With futures depending >>>>> On grades had in school. >> >>>>> When all of a sudden, >>>>> Our door opened wide, >>>>> And Patron Saint Put It Off >>>>> Ambled inside. >> >>>>> Her spirit was careless, >>>>> Her manner was mellow, >>>>> She started to bellow: >> >>>>> "What kind of student >>>>> Would make such a fuss, >>>>> To toss back at teachers >>>>> What they tossed at us?" >> >>>>> "On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >>>>> On Last Year's Exams! >>>>> On Wingit and Slingit, >>>>> And Last Minute Crams!" >> >>>>> Her message delivered, >>>>> She vanished from sight, >>>>> But we heard her laughing >>>>> Outside in the night. >> >>>>> "Your teachers have pegged you, >>>>> So just do your best. >>>>> Happy Finals to All, >>>>> And to All, a good test." >> >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli >> cious%40suddenlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm >> ail.com >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1849 - Release Date: >> 12/15/2008 >> 9:01 AM >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From blindhistory at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 13:10:45 2008 From: blindhistory at gmail.com (Lora and Myrtle) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 06:10:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals In-Reply-To: <003b01c95fff$b5bdbde0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <20081217021318.IKTE14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> <49486a48.1e078e0a.061f.ffff8d10@mx.google.com> <003b01c95fff$b5bdbde0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: i DON'T GO BACK UNTIL JANUARY 20TH On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Rania wrote: > I have class on Satterday but it is not a final and I don't go back until > January 10th. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Spaulding" < > spaulding.scott at gmail.com> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" < > nabs-l at nfbnet.org> > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals > > > My one and only final was today. I had 2 other classes that did not have >> finals that finished last week. I'm done until Jan 7 now. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of hannah >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:13 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals >> >> My finals don't start until January 23rd... >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: hannah jones >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >>> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:48:23 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals >>> >> >> finals are over for me, but i understand that. >>> >> >> >> Joe Orozco wrote: >>> >>>> Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through >>>> >>> the >> >>> nightmare... >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> Twas the night before finals, >>>>> And all through the college, >>>>> The students were praying >>>>> For last minute knowledge. >>>>> >>>> >> Most were quite sleepy, >>>>> But none touched their beds, >>>>> While visions of essays >>>>> danced in their heads. >>>>> >>>> >> Out in the taverns, >>>>> A few were still drinking, >>>>> And hoping that liquor >>>>> would loosen up their thinking. >>>>> >>>> >> In my own apartment >>>>> I had been pacing, >>>>> And dreading exams >>>>> I soon would be facing. >>>>> >>>> >> My roommate was speechless, >>>>> His nose in his books, >>>>> And my comments to him >>>>> Drew unfriendly looks. >>>>> >>>> >> I drained all the coffee, >>>>> And brewed a new pot, >>>>> No longer caring >>>>> That my nerves were shot. >>>>> >>>> >> I stared at my notes, >>>>> But my thoughts were muddy, >>>>> My eyes went ablur, >>>>> I just couldn't study. >>>>> >>>> >> "Some pizza might help," >>>>> I said with a shiver, >>>>> But each place I called >>>>> Refused to deliver. >>>>> >>>> >> I'd nearly concluded >>>>> That life was too cruel, >>>>> With futures depending >>>>> On grades had in school. >>>>> >>>> >> When all of a sudden, >>>>> Our door opened wide, >>>>> And Patron Saint Put It Off >>>>> Ambled inside. >>>>> >>>> >> Her spirit was careless, >>>>> Her manner was mellow, >>>>> She started to bellow: >>>>> >>>> >> "What kind of student >>>>> Would make such a fuss, >>>>> To toss back at teachers >>>>> What they tossed at us?" >>>>> >>>> >> "On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >>>>> On Last Year's Exams! >>>>> On Wingit and Slingit, >>>>> And Last Minute Crams!" >>>>> >>>> >> Her message delivered, >>>>> She vanished from sight, >>>>> But we heard her laughing >>>>> Outside in the night. >>>>> >>>> >> "Your teachers have pegged you, >>>>> So just do your best. >>>>> Happy Finals to All, >>>>> And to All, a good test." >>>>> >>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> >>> info for nabs-l: >> >>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711 >> %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli >>> >> cious%40suddenlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm >> ail.com >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1849 - Release Date: >> 12/15/2008 >> 9:01 AM >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blindhistory%40gmail.com > -- Lora and Leader Dog Myrtle From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 13:30:23 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:30:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4948fef5.08b38c0a.4412.6711@mx.google.com> Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Dec 17 14:29:30 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:29:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <49482829.48c3f10a.7720.3a9a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Joe, I agreed with your points. They make a lot of sense. Just for the record, I think blind people making fun of each other for spilling things or tripping over things is just as foolish as sighted people doing it. Good luck on finals all, sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Dec 17 14:33:23 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:33:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi there, I find wearing ear protection is well worth missing on some environmental sounds, though I totally understand your concerns. I just have to take it slower than I normally would. Winter travel is awful, so I wish you luck. If all the snow could be reserved for lawns and ski hills and kept from the sidewalks that would work well with me. Snow is for skiing not walking in! A white Christmas to you, Sarah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:35 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection Hello all, This year I moved to Boulder, CO, after spending my entire life living in Phoenix, Arizona where the coldest winter days get down to 40 degrees. I've been learning a lot over the past few weeks about traveling in the cold and snow and have actually found it to be a lot less daunting than I expected! The only thing I haven't quite figured out yet is how to keep my ears warm without losing too much environmental sound. When traffic sounds are already muffled by snow I want to be able to hear as much of what remains as I can for good orientation, but I also don't want to freeze my ears off! Suggestions? Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Dec 17 14:34:13 2008 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (Sarah Jevnikar) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:34:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of theBlind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <37925919748E42308FA68C6AEAC3EF6E@jsquared> References: <20081215233905.GB81898@yumi.bluecherry.net> <37925919748E42308FA68C6AEAC3EF6E@jsquared> Message-ID: Thanks J.J.! That's cool. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of theBlind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment There was a major character in the CBS comedy Becker for starters who was blind. And don't forget about BLind Justice. There's more as well. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of theBlind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment > Hi, > Sorry for the anger. Where have you found such characters? I'm definitely > willing to be proven wrong. > Sarah > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of J.J. Meddaugh > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 2:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind > characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. > Personally, I found the skit funny. > > J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com > A premier licensed Code Factory distributor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > >>I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. >> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting stupid >> or >> are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to make it look >> like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of the camera for >> other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of that. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Joe Orozco >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday >> Night Live Segment >> >> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it there, >> but >> it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a certain amount of >> political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of publicity quota. I >> have >> never known the organization to feel so sensitive about every little >> thing >> that is thrown around about blindness. We should not make official >> statements for comical nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and >> reserve those for when statements are required to drive real impacts >> about >> real issues. I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions >> of >> people out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >> As >> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >> people >> important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other member of >> society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the show. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >> M. >> Barrie >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of T. Joseph Carter >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday >> Night Live Segment >> >> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >> >> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>> >>>NY Times: >>>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todaysp >>>aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>> >>>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/ >>>881501/ >>> >>>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>that does a real time search: >>>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 (for >>>heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that people >>>post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>> >>>Best, >>>Mika >>>Twitter Micro blog: >>>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>Facebook: >>>http://profile.to/mika >>> >>>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning this >>>> particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>> Courtney >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>>>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>>>> reason. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>> >>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>> >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>> Americans >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, spokesman >>>>>> for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The biggest >>>>>> problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>>>> stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and blind >>>>>> people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the simplest >>>>>> tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is absolutely >>>>>> wrong. This misconception contributes to an unemployment rate >>>>>> among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is >>>>>> why the National Federation of the Blind is disappointed that >>>>>> Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor Paterson in a comedy >>>>>> routine that focused almost exclusively on his blindness. >>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl >>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>>40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca From iamantonio at cox.net Wed Dec 17 14:47:35 2008 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:47:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Lost in Translation References: Message-ID: <001f01c96056$66866ef0$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> If you already have Kurzweil, or open book, you can use the translation features found in them. If not, stay tuned, and others may have a cheeper solution. Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brice Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:06 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Lost in Translation > Is there a way I can translate text from .brf to .txt, .rtf, .html, or > another usable format so I can read on my computer? > I started using web-Braille two years ago: I downloaded the .brf file > from the site, then I'd always use commands in Duxbury to translate > the file from Braille to readable text, and just read with jaws from > there. > However, I don't have access to duxbury anymore and would rather not > pay hundreds of dollars to download a complex system where the only > thing I could see myself using on a regular basis is the translate > command. > Are there any other, preferably free and easy, methods to translate a > braille file to readable text? > > For the record, I do understand that the point of web-Braille is to > allow patrons to read files on a machine such as the Braillenote which > supports the specific format and includes a Braille display. However, > since translation is readily available in duxbury, I don't think I'm > breaking any rules by converting the file for personal use. > P.S. Excelent film (see subject) > > - Brice > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 16:09:36 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:09:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49492443.8905be0a.540a.2f1c@mx.google.com> I have some behind the head ear muffs that don't seem to block much sound, but they seem to do a good job of keeping my ears warm, once they are in the right place. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:35 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection Hello all, This year I moved to Boulder, CO, after spending my entire life living in Phoenix, Arizona where the coldest winter days get down to 40 degrees. I've been learning a lot over the past few weeks about traveling in the cold and snow and have actually found it to be a lot less daunting than I expected! The only thing I haven't quite figured out yet is how to keep my ears warm without losing too much environmental sound. When traffic sounds are already muffled by snow I want to be able to hear as much of what remains as I can for good orientation, but I also don't want to freeze my ears off! Suggestions? Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1849 - Release Date: 12/15/2008 9:01 AM From maria.kristic at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 17:14:25 2008 From: maria.kristic at gmail.com (Maria Kristic) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:14:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Lost in Translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A free solution is to use WinTrans (http://www.blind-computing.com/braille/programs/winbt.exe), a GUI interface to NFBTrans, or, if you want to use NFBTrans, the command-line app, itself, download that from http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Products_Technology/nfbtr774.zip. Kurzweil 1000 uses NFBTrans, so I have used it in conjunction with K1000 when back-translating BRF files, and the quality is pretty decent. HTH, Maria -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:07 PM To: nabs-L at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Lost in Translation Is there a way I can translate text from .brf to .txt, .rtf, .html, or another usable format so I can read on my computer? I started using web-Braille two years ago: I downloaded the .brf file from the site, then I'd always use commands in Duxbury to translate the file from Braille to readable text, and just read with jaws from there. However, I don't have access to duxbury anymore and would rather not pay hundreds of dollars to download a complex system where the only thing I could see myself using on a regular basis is the translate command. Are there any other, preferably free and easy, methods to translate a braille file to readable text? For the record, I do understand that the point of web-Braille is to allow patrons to read files on a machine such as the Braillenote which supports the specific format and includes a Braille display. However, since translation is readily available in duxbury, I don't think I'm breaking any rules by converting the file for personal use. P.S. Excelent film (see subject) - Brice From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 19:14:01 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:14:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <4948fef5.08b38c0a.4412.6711@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0BC2F010F3CB4A91825400C3AE11617D@MonkeyPaw> Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From tmatzick06 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 20:59:16 2008 From: tmatzick06 at gmail.com (Tara Sena) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:59:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] seeking male roommate for Washington DC seminar. Message-ID: <85ee6e3a0812171259i75fa1c51wf8d88c7e76090167@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, I am writing on behalf of the New mexico affiliate. We are looking for a roomate for a gentleman named Westly Peters. He will be attending the seminar in Washington DC. this January and needs a roommate. If you are interested please contact the affiliate president, Christine Hall at 505-268-3895. The sooner you call the better. Thank you in advance, Tara good luck with finals... ewww... From Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com Wed Dec 17 22:17:12 2008 From: Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com (Rachel Becker) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:17:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard In-Reply-To: <793790.62153.qm@web65610.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have not been able to turn in assignments on blackboard and I am also using JAWS 9. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard I use jaws version 9, and as far as i can tell, blackboard is accessible. Granted, i only use it for a couple of classes, i have been able to read and turn in assignments, and i can fill out the online quizzes just fine. I haven't used any commands that are unusual, but again, i haven't really researched it since i only have to use it for a couple of classes. I have heard that some people have trouble with discussion boards and live online discussions, but i am not familiar with those. Cindy --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Robert Miller wrote: > From: Robert Miller > Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 4:58 PM > Hi everyone, I’m a teacher at the Oklahoma School for the > Blind, and I teach assistive technology devices to students. > I teach students from 2nd to 12th grade and I need your > help regarding my high school seniors. More and more > college students are being required to access blackboard > from the college teachers. I’m told that blackboard > isn’t very Jaws friendly. I wanted to get your opinion on > blackboard’s accessibility. Is it accessible? If so, what > is the best method of accessing it? Is there a set of > keyboard commands that I can download to teach my students? > Any help on accessing blackboard would be greatly > appreciated. > > Thank you! > Waiting for your help! > Robert. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/passionflower505%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rachel%40beckerconsultants.com From mworkman at ualberta.ca Wed Dec 17 22:48:57 2008 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:48:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <0BC2F010F3CB4A91825400C3AE11617D@MonkeyPaw> Message-ID: Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From brsmith2424 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 23:37:14 2008 From: brsmith2424 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:37:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Lost in Translation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Maria! This looks great. On 12/17/08, Maria Kristic wrote: > A free solution is to use WinTrans > (http://www.blind-computing.com/braille/programs/winbt.exe), a GUI interface > to NFBTrans, or, if you want to use NFBTrans, the command-line app, itself, > download that from > http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Products_Technology/nfbtr774.zip. Kurzweil > 1000 uses NFBTrans, so I have used it in conjunction with K1000 when > back-translating BRF files, and the quality is pretty decent. > > HTH, > Maria > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Brice Smith > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:07 PM > To: nabs-L at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Lost in Translation > > Is there a way I can translate text from .brf to .txt, .rtf, .html, or > another usable format so I can read on my computer? > I started using web-Braille two years ago: I downloaded the .brf file > from the site, then I'd always use commands in Duxbury to translate > the file from Braille to readable text, and just read with jaws from > there. > However, I don't have access to duxbury anymore and would rather not > pay hundreds of dollars to download a complex system where the only > thing I could see myself using on a regular basis is the translate > command. > Are there any other, preferably free and easy, methods to translate a > braille file to readable text? > > For the record, I do understand that the point of web-Braille is to > allow patrons to read files on a machine such as the Braillenote which > supports the specific format and includes a Braille display. However, > since translation is readily available in duxbury, I don't think I'm > breaking any rules by converting the file for personal use. > P.S. Excelent film (see subject) > > - Brice > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com > From jess28 at samobile.net Wed Dec 17 23:42:28 2008 From: jess28 at samobile.net (Jessica Trask) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:42:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard Message-ID: <20081217234228.1027.48765@biff.serotek.com> Rachel, Unfortunately, Freedom Scientific will not ever support Blackboard. I know this from having a friend who was attending college a few years ago and he had even asked them about support for Blackboard. He worked for Freedom Scientific in tech support for a little over a year or so. There is another screen reader on the market that might work with Blackboard it's called System Access. I haven't personally tested it myself so I don't know if it works or not. -- Jess Jessica Trask Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 02:48:06 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:48:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <0BC2F010F3CB4A91825400C3AE11617D@MonkeyPaw> Message-ID: <4949b9ef.1c17400a.160d.6aec@mx.google.com> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have found the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the choices or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their view of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes determination is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished despite his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality I think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think they have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We have reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a fantasy truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice becomes a personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always free or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our choosing. I suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally responsible for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and white and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they are all powerful. It also doesn’t mean that those who are now powerless can't be empowered. Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he did. I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am full of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before in history. On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes many forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you think some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born of pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for whom they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind people were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind black people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I used compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for blind people. I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its thoughts about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not my experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of ability, of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said we have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who just do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or get out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of available training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need our rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy way out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem to enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person around. Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some things that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability of their eyeballs. If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or misunderstanding never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed along (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To me there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways we all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead to in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives them the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully creative and bright. I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and the laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I think they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is the oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they pulled at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a little? I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how much is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not look blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I think it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the person who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a cane and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would not have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind people fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind justice super blind character. They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek when the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and creative when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and do applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the way to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. It depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the truth does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are really just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or others who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness at all. I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people who exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind people would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children would just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption they could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such a problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple and all on the blind as all that. You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it..." Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray blind people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. Use our strength how? Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com From skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 03:09:07 2008 From: skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com (Karrie Kinstetter) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:09:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard In-Reply-To: <20081217234228.1027.48765@biff.serotek.com> References: <20081217234228.1027.48765@biff.serotek.com> Message-ID: <055401c960be$06ff30d0$14fd9270$@com> Jessica, Jaws works just fine with blackboard. I'm using it currently, and I've had no problems with it. Yes, sometimes it can be slow, but it works quite well wi I've even taken exams using blackboard, and it works really really well. So to say that freedom scientific won't support it is wrong. Sincerely, Karrie Kinstetterth it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jessica Trask Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:42 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard Rachel, Unfortunately, Freedom Scientific will not ever support Blackboard. I know this from having a friend who was attending college a few years ago and he had even asked them about support for Blackboard. He worked for Freedom Scientific in tech support for a little over a year or so. There is another screen reader on the market that might work with Blackboard it's called System Access. I haven't personally tested it myself so I don't know if it works or not. -- Jess Jessica Trask Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gm ail.com From jj at bestmidi.com Thu Dec 18 03:54:31 2008 From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:54:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Input Wanted for Student Seminar in Washington, DC Message-ID: Hello from the NABS Board. We are currently forming our agenda for an exciting student seminar in Washington, DC and are asking for your input. What topics would you like to hear about during the meeting? What speakers do you feel would bring empowerment or useful information to the table? What types of breakout sessions should we hold? Also, if you are attending Washington Seminar and have participated in a unique job, program, sport, or extracuricular activity, we want to hear from you. Please write jj at bestmidi.com with your input and ideas. We look forward to making this a wonderful student seminar. J.J. Meddaugh, secretary National Association of Blind Students From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 08:07:00 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 03:07:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <4949b9ef.1c17400a.160d.6aec@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5DAC07C0970F43CF9DE05899197E071B@MonkeyPaw> Carrie, People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too lofty. A blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind relative's abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may very well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people to know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they should feel so inclined. The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a goal, and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, the goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if that person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to achieve it in the first place. There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, but strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It has never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help fuel the person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee the person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their own prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your own definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would have unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my arguments would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle of a developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United States may not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities enjoyed here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too far in their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the privilege of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to work under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because they are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim of hate crimes because he is gay? I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind people are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it your belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their circumstances? Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on the person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human nature, and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a person's inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should have said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue that the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance of one of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be good, but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would venture to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means of articulating the same point. Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are not owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these limitations. You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person held responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the hypothesis that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? To me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the environment to change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may sit well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, that makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily defensive and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so delicate as to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the segment at all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the show's impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or not blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in the skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using this format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques would not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it your position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because blind people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational experience? Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use of our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could take another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. If push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for now let's call that one a to be continued... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have found the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the choices or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their view of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes determination is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished despite his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality I think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think they have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We have reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a fantasy truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice becomes a personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always free or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our choosing. I suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally responsible for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and white and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they are all powerful. It also doesn’t mean that those who are now powerless can't be empowered. Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he did. I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am full of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before in history. On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes many forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you think some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born of pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for whom they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind people were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind black people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I used compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for blind people. I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its thoughts about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not my experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of ability, of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said we have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who just do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or get out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of available training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need our rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy way out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem to enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person around. Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some things that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability of their eyeballs. If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or misunderstanding never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed along (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To me there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways we all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead to in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives them the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully creative and bright. I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and the laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I think they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is the oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they pulled at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a little? I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how much is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not look blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I think it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the person who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a cane and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would not have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind people fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind justice super blind character. They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek when the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and creative when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and do applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the way to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. It depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the truth does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are really just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or others who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness at all. I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people who exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind people would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children would just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption they could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such a problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple and all on the blind as all that. You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it..." Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray blind people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. Use our strength how? Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From marty.rahn at juno.com Thu Dec 18 08:26:13 2008 From: marty.rahn at juno.com (Marty Rahn) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:26:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard References: Message-ID: It's not submitting assignments that I have difficulty with in Blackboard. In fact, the only thing I have had a lot of difficulty with is the chat feature. The online chats that some profs do are not accessible to me, and I suspect, to some others as well. Even with JAWS 10, this feature does not work. Marty Rahn President, Colorado Association of Blind Students Vice President, National Federation of the Blind of Colorado (Greeley Chapter) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Becker" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard >I have not been able to turn in assignments on blackboard and I am also >using JAWS 9. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Cindy Bennett > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard > > > I use jaws version 9, and as far as i can tell, blackboard is accessible. > Granted, i only use it for a couple of classes, i have been able to read > and turn in assignments, and i can fill out the online quizzes just fine. > I haven't used any commands that are unusual, but again, i haven't really > researched it since i only have to use it for a couple of classes. I have > heard that some people have trouble with discussion boards and live online > discussions, but i am not familiar with those. > Cindy > > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Robert Miller wrote: > >> From: Robert Miller >> Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 4:58 PM >> Hi everyone, I’m a teacher at the Oklahoma School for the >> Blind, and I teach assistive technology devices to students. >> I teach students from 2nd to 12th grade and I need your >> help regarding my high school seniors. More and more >> college students are being required to access blackboard >> from the college teachers. I’m told that blackboard >> isn’t very Jaws friendly. I wanted to get your opinion on >> blackboard’s accessibility. Is it accessible? If so, what >> is the best method of accessing it? Is there a set of >> keyboard commands that I can download to teach my students? >> Any help on accessing blackboard would be greatly >> appreciated. >> >> Thank you! >> Waiting for your help! >> Robert. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/passionflower505%40yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rachel%40beckerconsultants.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marty.rahn%40juno.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1854 - Release Date: 12/17/2008 7:21 PM ____________________________________________________________ Protect our community. Click here to take criminal justice classes and begin a rewarding career. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2jutwv04mLyTZQAxOL4lwtCl5YwEwucfxuuG6xKgauKbl5f/ From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 08:33:26 2008 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 02:33:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] You Are Invited To Participate in The Djd Invasion Christmas Party of 2008 Message-ID: Hi All! Please feel free to share this with any friends/family you think would be interested: You are invited to send your favorite friends/family members a special holiday wish to be played over the air on my up coming Christmas special program on Sunday, december 21, 2008 starting at 7 PM central time (that's 8 PM eastern). While we're rockin around the Christmas tree with both traditional and not so traditional Christmas songs from various artists from all genres, I'll be playing the audio messages that get sent to me. Whether it's a song you want to dedicate to someone, or whether you just want to extend some holiday cheer, you can do it live during the show or as a recorded message played some time during the program. For those who wish to send a recorded message by phone, here's all you have to do. Simply pick up the phone between now and Sunday at 5 PM eastern, and dial 1-641-715-3900 and when prompted, enter in Extention 77196 followed by the pound sign. Then you can leave your special holiday message, and it will be played at some point during the show. If you wish to record an mp3 file, that's OK too, just attach it to an email sent to djdrocks4ever at gmail.com This will probably be the best Christmas special I've ever done so far, and you're invited to add your own personal touch to the show with that special holiday message for everyone or that special someone and/or your special Christmas request/dedication. More information will be coming out about the show and how to access it once the date gets closer. In the mean time, feel free to call the number above, and leave your holiday cheer! Best regards, David Dunphy From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 13:10:04 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 07:10:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <5DAC07C0970F43CF9DE05899197E071B@MonkeyPaw> Message-ID: <494a4bbc.1e038e0a.4ad8.ffffa317@mx.google.com> Dear Joe, Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never said I disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " there is an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough go getters" and that with just the right training the world can be theirs. My response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide variety of those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for decades and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic over-all perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and what some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally back and need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as best they can and some because of the variability of humans in general never had much toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep belief it is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had opportunity with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do achieve great things for themselves. And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity are their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are equal in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or levels of things that have come against them or levels of things to come back. I am not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there are more than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your earlier posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that have been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every opportunity. Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do not have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not even be aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am also aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who can rise up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects anything at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside intervention. I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly can not break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with blindness it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and a lack of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that generally sighted people trying to break free of their families or circumstances do not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are not capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in many cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even in one life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that happens uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there are inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of them and neither do they often break out and create high expectations for themselves. I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall or ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep faith in people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and challenges in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is not so simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a lot of grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in many things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally changing for the blind person except where access should reasonably be allowed--meaning it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the other hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means to be blind. And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and misconceptions perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of access, etc. Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a group hard and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us to come at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped give advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to the outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not exclude the other. I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a philosophy class with you. I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too lofty. A blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind relative's abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may very well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people to know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they should feel so inclined. The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a goal, and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, the goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if that person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to achieve it in the first place. There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, but strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It has never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help fuel the person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee the person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their own prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your own definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would have unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my arguments would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle of a developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United States may not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities enjoyed here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too far in their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the privilege of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to work under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because they are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim of hate crimes because he is gay? I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind people are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it your belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their circumstances? Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on the person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human nature, and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a person's inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should have said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue that the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance of one of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be good, but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would venture to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means of articulating the same point. Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are not owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these limitations. You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person held responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the hypothesis that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? To me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the environment to change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may sit well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, that makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily defensive and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so delicate as to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the segment at all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the show's impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or not blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in the skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using this format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques would not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it your position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because blind people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational experience? Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use of our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could take another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. If push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for now let's call that one a to be continued... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have found the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the choices or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their view of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes determination is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished despite his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality I think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think they have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We have reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a fantasy truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice becomes a personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always free or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our choosing. I suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally responsible for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and white and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they are all powerful. It also doesn’t mean that those who are now powerless can't be empowered. Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he did. I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am full of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before in history. On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes many forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you think some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born of pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for whom they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind people were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind black people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I used compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for blind people. I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its thoughts about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not my experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of ability, of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said we have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who just do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or get out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of available training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need our rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy way out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem to enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person around. Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some things that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability of their eyeballs. If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or misunderstanding never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed along (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To me there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways we all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead to in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives them the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully creative and bright. I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and the laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I think they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is the oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they pulled at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a little? I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how much is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not look blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I think it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the person who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a cane and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would not have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind people fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind justice super blind character. They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek when the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and creative when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and do applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the way to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. It depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the truth does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are really just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or others who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness at all. I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people who exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind people would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children would just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption they could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such a problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple and all on the blind as all that. You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it..." Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray blind people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. Use our strength how? Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 14:45:15 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:45:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] hope this doesn't annoy others--but one question on SNL Message-ID: <494a6202.1f068e0a.7599.ffffa188@mx.google.com> Dear Joe, I thought this best to separate. At the end.are you saying the only way a competent or skilled or "perfect" blind person could be funny would be to make fun of the blindness in a stereotypical way? I would hope that integration would mean they could be funny in the same way others are funny. I do not know the Govenor's personality or personal mannerisms or policies well enough to re-write the skit with humor pertaining to him personally aside from his blindness. I do believe there is enough more to him to be made fun of than just his blindness. I would be very happy if now some who never questioned the stereotypes did turn themselves to serious thought about whether or not blind people really do behave in such a manner inherently because of their blindness rather than just blankly accepting that they do behave in such a manner because of blindness. I can't speak for the whole national center-I do think they try or purposefully do their best to speak for us (given we are not monolithic)-in my case I think they did speak what I agree with and that is I hope for them to not get a laugh using blanket stereotypes with disrespect (whether or not they intended to be disrespectful)-just like I would not respect them doing blanket stereotype jokes that have clearly been harmful in their perpetuation about any other group. I personally understand the basis of some stereotypical humor as being much less harmful and sometimes even funny. I saw the SNL writers on an interview on the Charlie Rose show last week I think it was. They are all about pushing the envelope-nothing is out of bounds in their brainstorming sessions. I think it is fair to say to them when one feels the envelope has been pushed too far. I think out-of-bounds, or having boundaries, is what keeps us civil and learning to respect our diversity and laughing with each other in a healthy way rather than laughing at someone(s) in a put down way. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc From queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 15:07:04 2008 From: queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com (Marsha) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:07:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] SNL In-Reply-To: <494a6202.1f068e0a.7599.ffffa188@mx.google.com> References: <494a6202.1f068e0a.7599.ffffa188@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I missed the show itself, but is there some place I could see it now. If anyone has it or knows where I can see it please pass along the link or the file. It would be much appreciated! Marsha __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3702 (20081218) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From liamskitten at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 18:43:31 2008 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Linda Stover) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:43:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] SNL In-Reply-To: References: <494a6202.1f068e0a.7599.ffffa188@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7949e5e20812181043v2a1334dbx6da8e2298b74ce59@mail.gmail.com> Marsha, Here's a link where you can view it. I checked the link, so I know it is valid and does indeed show the aforementioned skit. http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/881501/ On 12/18/08, Marsha wrote: > I missed the show itself, but is there some place I could see it now. If > anyone has it or knows where I can see it please pass along the link or the > file. It would be much appreciated! > Marsha > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 3702 (20081218) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:37:32 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:37:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] hope this doesn't annoy others--but one question on SNL In-Reply-To: <494a6202.1f068e0a.7599.ffffa188@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Carrie, No, I do not think the only way a competent blind person can be funny is to make fun of blindness stereotypes. Yet, I do not think stereotypes are completely negative taboos that should be avoided at all cost. Stereotypes are exaggerated bits of accuracy that, if injected into humor, could be used as educational tools to change public perceptions. South Park, for all its raunchy nonsense, probably does a far better job of teaching morals than any lecture could ever hope to accomplish. I'm not sure there was any educational value in this past weekend's Saturday Night Live, but nor do I think the producers meant it to be educational in the first place. In fact, what made it so funny is that it was so stupid. People do not watch the show to be educated on the accurate, let alone positive, portrayals of people or groups of people. The show is comic relief engineered to make people laugh at the sheer idiocy of the topic. It may not have been polite of SNL to poke fun at the blind. Yet, to exclude the blind from such sarcasm is to further ostracize the blind population from the general public. I believe our disagreement has more to do with outlook than it does with intent. Ultimately, as long as we continue to share a common goal of helping blind people, I consider these types of debates a productive means of shaking up our views and creating strategies that are more effective than previous measures. I said in my last post that if I were to sit down and write a list of things we could be doing with our influence as the largest organization, the list would be voluminous, but I think my suggestions would primarily center around mutual education. Okay, so the SNL segment was an attack on the blind. Now give me examples of how a blind person really could excel at performing as a highly capable governor. The Blindness movie was a twisted depiction of a blind person's ability to survive, so tell me how a blind person really does carry out chores in his or her daily life. We cannot rely on statements. We need campaigns, and if too many media outlets are portraying the blind in a manner that is not acceptable, maybe we should be encouraging blind actors to go out there and do their share to turn the tide. I know such campaigns are no small task, but I sometimes fear that our positions are too blind-centric with little flexibility for sighted collaboration. We carry out joint projects with corporations to create new tools and devices, but so much of our progress depends on the basic social interactions of the variety that will help the general public see blind people for the productive citizens they are capable of being. In any case, I think I've belabored the point long enough. You're very articulate, and I look forward to a future discussion soon. Cordially, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:45 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] hope this doesn't annoy others--but one question on SNL Dear Joe, I thought this best to separate. At the end.are you saying the only way a competent or skilled or "perfect" blind person could be funny would be to make fun of the blindness in a stereotypical way? I would hope that integration would mean they could be funny in the same way others are funny. I do not know the Govenor's personality or personal mannerisms or policies well enough to re-write the skit with humor pertaining to him personally aside from his blindness. I do believe there is enough more to him to be made fun of than just his blindness. I would be very happy if now some who never questioned the stereotypes did turn themselves to serious thought about whether or not blind people really do behave in such a manner inherently because of their blindness rather than just blankly accepting that they do behave in such a manner because of blindness. I can't speak for the whole national center-I do think they try or purposefully do their best to speak for us (given we are not monolithic)-in my case I think they did speak what I agree with and that is I hope for them to not get a laugh using blanket stereotypes with disrespect (whether or not they intended to be disrespectful)-just like I would not respect them doing blanket stereotype jokes that have clearly been harmful in their perpetuation about any other group. I personally understand the basis of some stereotypical humor as being much less harmful and sometimes even funny. I saw the SNL writers on an interview on the Charlie Rose show last week I think it was. They are all about pushing the envelope-nothing is out of bounds in their brainstorming sessions. I think it is fair to say to them when one feels the envelope has been pushed too far. I think out-of-bounds, or having boundaries, is what keeps us civil and learning to respect our diversity and laughing with each other in a healthy way rather than laughing at someone(s) in a put down way. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Dec 18 21:59:00 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:59:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <047201c9615b$d5cbc7f0$0301a8c0@Serene> Dave, Your brother was drunk? You've gotta be kidding! ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation > In high school I got them to show me the way ahead of time. In college I > decided I would be ok just following the person in front of me. It was my > brother, so thought I was safe. He started college before me, transferred > in to where I was, and ended up graduating at the same time. Anyway, the > problem turned out to be that he was drunk at the ceremony, so he, and I > turned the wrong way! > > Dave > > At 08:26 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >>Hello everyone, >> >>I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's office to >>make arrangements for a guide. >> >>I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about walking >>across the stage to the person to get my diploma, etc. What have you guys >>done who have graduated? As I understand it you walk up a ramp, to the >>person, shake hands with him an who ever else is there, and walk down the >>other side. Thoughts? >> >>P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, but that >>the student just calls the registrar's office and arranges for a guide if >>they wish. >> >>Harry >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1842 - Release Date: >>12/10/2008 6:53 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Dec 18 22:28:41 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:28:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment References: Message-ID: <053b01c9615f$fb705440$0301a8c0@Serene> Hi Joe I honestly didn't watch the skit, but I think the reason we cry fowl when blind people get made fun of is that blind people who make fun of others do it, knowing they're joking around and knowing what might be going too far. Some sighted people might not. In college, a blind friend of mine (not on this list) didn't have great blindness skills. My friend Anthony (who some of you may remember is a wheelchair user) and I certainly vented to each other about things we felt our friend could do better, but we always kept our mouths shut and never mentioned any of our feelings to ignorant sighted students. One of my sighted acquaintances badmouthed my blind friend to me and I didn't tolerate it! Although I'll admit she was right about one or two things she claimed, she was wrong about most of them and had no basis for them. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > Carrie, > > Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told > they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, > chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of > blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization > growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the > achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or > not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to > behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind > person > as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of > the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be > more about socializing than it would be about advocating. > > I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked > reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is > sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that > the > more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? > > I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet > South > Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet > other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time > the > blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have > something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt > to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's > inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be > less > than perfect. > > Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual > acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just > human, > we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. > Somehow > I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at > other > blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, > blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow > the > sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? > > I just don't get it... > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James > M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Carrie Gilmer > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at > the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next > few > days. > The things I am considering are... > It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or > a > dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted > person > he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my > understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in > large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking > blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic > that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as > he > has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also > seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and > stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. > > So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in > non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have > everything read to him by readers... > > I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black > man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating > scene > from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public > outcry > would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- > The > reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and > bumbling--lack of proper training does. > > It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on > the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal > means > so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good > portrayal) > and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the > National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home > Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com > www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original > Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of J.J. Meddaugh > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind > characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. > Personally, I found the skit funny. > > J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com > A premier licensed Code Factory distributor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > >>I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. >> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >>make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >>the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all >>of > that. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday Night Live Segment >> >> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >> As >> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >> show. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >> humanity."--James M. >> Barrie >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday Night Live Segment >> >> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >> >> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>> >>>NY Times: >>>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>> >>>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>/ >>>881501/ >>> >>>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>that does a real time search: >>>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>> >>>Best, >>>Mika >>>Twitter Micro blog: >>>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>Facebook: >>>http://profile.to/mika >>> >>>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>> Courtney >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>> any reason. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>> >>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>> >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>> Americans >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on his > blindness. >>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>> l >>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>> % >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>> m >>>> ail.com >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>% >>>40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >> com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From iamantonio at cox.net Thu Dec 18 22:37:26 2008 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:37:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment References: Message-ID: <006001c96161$33d29310$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> Dear Marc, Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good points. First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris Danielson to write and distribute it. Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some time ago. The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were quietly ignoring this one. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net From iamantonio at cox.net Thu Dec 18 23:10:05 2008 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:10:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment References: <4949b9ef.1c17400a.160d.6aec@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <006401c96165$c3a79220$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> Carrie said, Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy way out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem to enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person around. The key phrase here is for now. Blind people may go through periods of eidalness, but learn that everyone else is moving on, and making something of their life. If there be a blind person here who feels success is only for the lucky, rest assured you are lucky to have those who've gone before you. Ordinary people who focus on success, and have the opportunity to achieve it. Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carrie Gilmer" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have found the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the choices or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their view of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes determination is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished despite his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality I think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think they have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We have reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a fantasy truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice becomes a personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always free or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our choosing. I suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally responsible for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and white and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now powerless can't be empowered. Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he did. I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am full of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before in history. On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes many forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you think some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born of pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for whom they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind people were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind black people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I used compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for blind people. I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its thoughts about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not my experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of ability, of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said we have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who just do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or get out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of available training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need our rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy way out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem to enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person around. Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some things that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability of their eyeballs. If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or misunderstanding never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed along (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To me there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways we all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead to in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives them the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully creative and bright. I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and the laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I think they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is the oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they pulled at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a little? I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how much is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not look blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I think it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the person who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a cane and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would not have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind people fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind justice super blind character. They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek when the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and creative when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and do applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the way to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. It depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the truth does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are really just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or others who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness at all. I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people who exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind people would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children would just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption they could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such a problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple and all on the blind as all that. You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it..." Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray blind people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. Use our strength how? Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Fri Dec 19 01:12:49 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:12:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment References: Message-ID: <008f01c96176$e97fecc0$0301a8c0@Serene> I agree with you,Marc! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From hjones711 at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 02:00:36 2008 From: hjones711 at gmail.com (hannah jones) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:00:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] SNL In-Reply-To: <7949e5e20812181043v2a1334dbx6da8e2298b74ce59@mail.gmail.com> References: <494a6202.1f068e0a.7599.ffffa188@mx.google.com> <7949e5e20812181043v2a1334dbx6da8e2298b74ce59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494B0044.8060109@gmail.com> Well, i finally just watched it. It was just wrong. Way wrong. Linda Stover wrote: > Marsha, > > Here's a link where you can view it. I checked the link, so I know it > is valid and does indeed show the aforementioned skit. > > http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/881501/ > > On 12/18/08, Marsha wrote: > >> I missed the show itself, but is there some place I could see it now. If >> anyone has it or knows where I can see it please pass along the link or the >> file. It would be much appreciated! >> Marsha >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >> database 3702 (20081218) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.com > > From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 05:07:31 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 00:07:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <006001c96161$33d29310$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> Message-ID: Marc, That's interesting. I did not catch your post until Antonio responded to it. I've never known GMail to drop list messages, but regardless, you clearly put thought into your message. I'll briefly respond in kind: First, religion, economy and politics do influence our upbring and play a significant role in our choices as adults. Nevertheless, Americans live in an open society where our development is just as influenced by the diversity of our peers as it was by our own childhood. We do not live in a vacuum devoid of exposure to a plethora of cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic classes. In short, there is always something by which to compare yourself to something or someone else. The same media that tilts the depiction of blind people is the very same media that blind people access to stay abreast of technological advances, educational opportunities and role models. The point has nothing to do with any brand of conservatism. It has to do with access to information and training. I do not believe that the high percentage of blind people who are unemployed choose to be unemployed, but the one quarter of the blind population that is employed is a scenario that begs the question: How was this employment achieved? Are we to believe that only 26 percent of the population has successfully changed attitudes long enough to get themselves hired? I will venture to make a guess that the 74 percent unemployment rate is an outdated statistic that will actually drop with the expansion of the aforementioned technological advances. Perhaps I am naïve indeed, but I am optimistic about our generation's place in the workforce. Second, blind people should not have to fight to be the odds. Well, the truth is that no one should have to fight to be the odds. On a separate point I believe challenges build character, but speaking directly to your contention, you are suggesting blind people have an additional burden than the sighted in their quest for success. Now we have a philosophical conundrum. On the one hand there is the belief that blindness is nothing more than a nuisance, that blindness is no more characteristic than the color of your eyes and that with proper training you too can excel at whatever you desire. On the other hand it is being suggested that blindness presents a unique set of challenges that significantly impair a person's ability to compete on equal footing. People can't have it both ways. I am not so strict as to believe there are not logistical challenges to a blind person's journey to success. My point, however, is that these challenges have been met and overcome by scores of blind people under greater adversity than is the case in today's world. I believe our generation has been spoiled by the achievements of our leaders, and when we are incapable of obtaining a goal we would rather blame it on our environment, on discrimination, on life, anything other than ourselves. Life has never been fair, and if people woke up feeling as though no amount of work could ever pay off, there would be no point in getting up at all. There are people who fall through the cracks. The rest of us should reach out, but do you genuinely believe there are enough people out there willing to teach others how to read, how to cross streets, how to advocate for themselves, how to be generally independent? If there is general disagreement that even high levels of determination cannot guarantee success, I suggest there be a plan of action to change this dismal fact. Third, I'll grant you the history of the treatment of the blind is less than pleasant. If your point here was to suggest that Carrie's analogy of blindness to slavery was in fact a valid one, I'll concede the argument. History is replete with atrocities against humankind, and although I am well aware you are not suggesting this notion, I would offer the reminder that we not allow history to govern our future potential. Fourth, my reference to the clucking chicken has to do with Ben Underwood's use of clicking to familiarize himself with his surroundings. Whether or not the method is effective is a separate matter, but effective or not, it is not socially acceptable. I know that referencing social norms begs the question, "what is normal?" Yet the reality stands that such behavior lends credence that blind people are special, and not in a good way. Somehow these are the examples that the media picks up and distributes, and I have to wonder why this is the case? Surely in our midst of 50,000 members there are enough people who can go out as ambassadors to change these slanted perceptions. Or, is it that we only find ourselves highlighting the negative publicity? In either case, stereotypes exist of all social groups. If a sighted person sees a blind person rocking, that sighted person will assume that all blind people rock. Is it fair? Of course it's not fair, but it's human nature that clouds the judgment of the blind as much as it does of the sighted. SNL picked up on stereotypical depictions of the blind, but on the whole I do not see how their comedy will impair my quality of life. I recognize my actions in daily life among sighted peers will have more of a profound impact than a show segment that would have been forgotten had there not been an official statement that legitimized the show's humor. Finally, the issue of the press release itself is a debatable matter. I do not think I am as concerned with the distribution of the press release as much as I am about the impetus for its distribution. My reasons, I think, have already been sufficiently outlined. Again, a very well-organized, very thought-provoking contribution to the discussion. I'm glad you came out of lurk mode and hope to see more of your feedback. We may not agree here. I think I'll let it rest after this post, but one thing I have learned from this thread is that while critics of the NFB may accuse it of being too militaristic, I am wondering if it is not militaristic enough... In an additional response to Carrie's question of what I think we should do with our influence, I will add two specific ideas: 1. We should design a mentoring program between blind people and sighted ones. The program should be used as a tool to eliminate the mentality of us versus them, but on a more practical level I think I would learn more from a sighted counterpart than I might from a fellow blind member. No offense to my blind peeps, but unless I am interested in a career in blindness, my network needs to be out there, in the sighted world, where I hope to make a name for myself. Blind mentorship should not have to be an arrangement. It should be a natural occurrence, though there are multiple benefits to such arrangements, so don't nobody go claiming I am anti-mentoring among the blind. 2. Boot camp! Are you surprised? My conservatism is never far, but seriously, two week sessions during the summer where adults travel to Baltimore to get dipped in all levels of alternative techniques to get a sense of what they could accomplish with the right attitude. Are we going to shake the status quo? No, but I think it would be a damn fine start. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Marc, Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good points. First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris Danielson to write and distribute it. Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some time ago. The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were quietly ignoring this one. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 06:26:11 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 17:26:11 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <006001c96161$33d29310$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> Message-ID: Hello listers, This discussion has led in several interesting directions and it is great to be able to discuss these fundamental questions of what the "reality" of blindness is and what role we have in shaping it. I think there are merits to both sides of the debate that are worth noting and expanding upon. I do agree with the concept of "creating our own reality" and this resonates with the wisdom with which I was raised and the belief that I still hold. I believe we create our own individual realities in that we can control how we react to events around us even if we cannot control the events themselves. We can decide whether to treat negative events as tragedies or as opportunities for learning and growth, and when we are given resources we can choose how we want to utilize them. It is true that sometimes our actions are limited by a lack of knowledge of what all the options are or by a lack of resources, but I think we can always choose what our general attitude is going to be. I do not, however, agree that there is an absolute dichotomy between failing and succeeding—in blindness or otherwise. First of all, we have to define what success and failure mean and that definition is going to be different to different people. A lot of us talk about employment for the blind as being a kind of success indicator. I believe that gainful employment is a basic element of success, but I don't think the "bottom line" is the sole dividing line between the successful and unsuccessful blind. There are other components of success—finding meaningful social relationships, contributing to the community and staying physically and mentally vitalized. A minimum-wage job may feel like success to one person who's struggled for many years to find it and yet be painfully boring and meaningless to another. So, the division between the successful and unsuccessful isn't very clear. Furthermore, we often tend to assume that blind people are either competent in all blindness skills or competent in none—and that just isn't true for a good chunk of the blind population. Someone might be excellent in Braille and academic skills but unable to do much independent travel or unpracticed in social etiquette, or vice versa. Some people have great skills but a weak blindness philosophy where they doubt themselves so much that the skills are never used, or on the contrary, they may have great confidence in their abilities but just not have the skills yet to realize their potential. The blind population is just as complex as the sighted and there is a lot of gray area between the so-called "elite" blind and the "stumbling bumbling" folks we've alluded to. And, above and beyond all that, there are going to be a certain number of "competent" blind people with great skills and philosophy who don't get the jobs, relationships, etc. that they want, and there will also be those "stereotypical" blind folks who do, whether because of outside resources, luck or just random variation. So the problem is complex—a certain amount of responsibility lies with all of us to make the best of the circumstances that we have, and then a certain amount of responsibility lies with the organized blind to figure out what circumstances are standing in our way and to work to make them better. A final, slightly unrelated thought: In my years in the NFB and following some of these recent list threads, I've observed that we tend to compare ourselves to other blind people a lot. It may be upward comparison ("Mr. So-and-So reads Braille faster than me; why?" or downward comparison ("Mr. So-and-So [or blind people in general] have such lousy social skills"). A little comparison with other blind people is fine—upward comparison motivates us to improve ("I want to get so I can read Braille just as fast as he can!") and downward comparison helps us continue to feel good about ourselves when people are constantly doubting our abilities ("I may be blind, but at least I know how to dress appropriately, unlike Mr. So-and-So!") All right, enough with the psychology talk—my point is that though social comparison is natural, I don't think it's good to make a habit of it. When we spend time comparing ourselves to others we lose sight of what we as individuals should be expecting from ourselves. We forget that others have totally different situations from us—different life histories, different causes of blindness, other factors in their lives that might cause them to differ from us. Mr. Fast Braille Reader probably has been reading Braille longer than you have—not something you can go back and change. And Mr. Fashion Clueless may have lacked certain mentors or role models that you had to help you learn about fashion—also not something worth worrying about. When we compare ourselves to others we're bound to get frustrated either with our own inability to measure up to them or with their seeming inferiority to us and how they "misrepresent" the blind. And in the case of downward comparison, we end up really denigrating each other—creating the situation Joseph once summed up here by saying, "Blind people hate each other!" I think a better way to keep ourselves motivated and also maintaining our self-esteem is to compare ourselves not with other blind people, but with what we want to become. New Year's Resolution time is right around the corner. Take some time to think about what your personal goals are—for this year and for the next few—and whether you're reaching them. If you're not satisfied with what you've been doing to reach your goals, think about what you've been lacking and what you can do to make up for it. We all have things we can grow and improve in both related and unrelated to blindness. And, think about things you're doing great in—note them, celebrate them, but resist the urge to focus your attention on other blind people who aren't doing so well in those areas. We certainly don't have to like all blind people, or even associate with any of them, but I think we do owe them the respect to treat them as unique human beings that are a cross-section of society, and that are capable of growing and improving as well. Cheers Arielle On 12/19/08, Joe Orozco wrote: > Marc, > > That's interesting. I did not catch your post until Antonio responded to > it. I've never known GMail to drop list messages, but regardless, you > clearly put thought into your message. I'll briefly respond in kind: > > First, religion, economy and politics do influence our upbring and play a > significant role in our choices as adults. Nevertheless, Americans live in > an open society where our development is just as influenced by the diversity > of our peers as it was by our own childhood. We do not live in a vacuum > devoid of exposure to a plethora of cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic > classes. In short, there is always something by which to compare yourself > to something or someone else. The same media that tilts the depiction of > blind people is the very same media that blind people access to stay abreast > of technological advances, educational opportunities and role models. The > point has nothing to do with any brand of conservatism. It has to do with > access to information and training. I do not believe that the high > percentage of blind people who are unemployed choose to be unemployed, but > the one quarter of the blind population that is employed is a scenario that > begs the question: How was this employment achieved? Are we to believe that > only 26 percent of the population has successfully changed attitudes long > enough to get themselves hired? I will venture to make a guess that the 74 > percent unemployment rate is an outdated statistic that will actually drop > with the expansion of the aforementioned technological advances. Perhaps I > am naïve indeed, but I am optimistic about our generation's place in the > workforce. > > Second, blind people should not have to fight to be the odds. Well, the > truth is that no one should have to fight to be the odds. On a separate > point I believe challenges build character, but speaking directly to your > contention, you are suggesting blind people have an additional burden than > the sighted in their quest for success. Now we have a philosophical > conundrum. On the one hand there is the belief that blindness is nothing > more than a nuisance, that blindness is no more characteristic than the > color of your eyes and that with proper training you too can excel at > whatever you desire. On the other hand it is being suggested that blindness > presents a unique set of challenges that significantly impair a person's > ability to compete on equal footing. People can't have it both ways. I am > not so strict as to believe there are not logistical challenges to a blind > person's journey to success. My point, however, is that these challenges > have been met and overcome by scores of blind people under greater adversity > than is the case in today's world. I believe our generation has been > spoiled by the achievements of our leaders, and when we are incapable of > obtaining a goal we would rather blame it on our environment, on > discrimination, on life, anything other than ourselves. Life has never been > fair, and if people woke up feeling as though no amount of work could ever > pay off, there would be no point in getting up at all. There are people who > fall through the cracks. The rest of us should reach out, but do you > genuinely believe there are enough people out there willing to teach others > how to read, how to cross streets, how to advocate for themselves, how to be > generally independent? If there is general disagreement that even high > levels of determination cannot guarantee success, I suggest there be a plan > of action to change this dismal fact. > > Third, I'll grant you the history of the treatment of the blind is less than > pleasant. If your point here was to suggest that Carrie's analogy of > blindness to slavery was in fact a valid one, I'll concede the argument. > History is replete with atrocities against humankind, and although I am well > aware you are not suggesting this notion, I would offer the reminder that we > not allow history to govern our future potential. > > Fourth, my reference to the clucking chicken has to do with Ben Underwood's > use of clicking to familiarize himself with his surroundings. Whether or > not the method is effective is a separate matter, but effective or not, it > is not socially acceptable. I know that referencing social norms begs the > question, "what is normal?" Yet the reality stands that such behavior lends > credence that blind people are special, and not in a good way. Somehow > these are the examples that the media picks up and distributes, and I have > to wonder why this is the case? Surely in our midst of 50,000 members there > are enough people who can go out as ambassadors to change these slanted > perceptions. Or, is it that we only find ourselves highlighting the > negative publicity? In either case, stereotypes exist of all social groups. > If a sighted person sees a blind person rocking, that sighted person will > assume that all blind people rock. Is it fair? Of course it's not fair, > but it's human nature that clouds the judgment of the blind as much as it > does of the sighted. SNL picked up on stereotypical depictions of the > blind, but on the whole I do not see how their comedy will impair my quality > of life. I recognize my actions in daily life among sighted peers will have > more of a profound impact than a show segment that would have been forgotten > had there not been an official statement that legitimized the show's humor. > > Finally, the issue of the press release itself is a debatable matter. I do > not think I am as concerned with the distribution of the press release as > much as I am about the impetus for its distribution. My reasons, I think, > have already been sufficiently outlined. > > Again, a very well-organized, very thought-provoking contribution to the > discussion. I'm glad you came out of lurk mode and hope to see more of your > feedback. We may not agree here. I think I'll let it rest after this post, > but one thing I have learned from this thread is that while critics of the > NFB may accuse it of being too militaristic, I am wondering if it is not > militaristic enough... > > In an additional response to Carrie's question of what I think we should do > with our influence, I will add two specific ideas: > > 1. We should design a mentoring program between blind people and sighted > ones. The program should be used as a tool to eliminate the mentality of us > versus them, but on a more practical level I think I would learn more from a > sighted counterpart than I might from a fellow blind member. No offense to > my blind peeps, but unless I am interested in a career in blindness, my > network needs to be out there, in the sighted world, where I hope to make a > name for myself. Blind mentorship should not have to be an arrangement. It > should be a natural occurrence, though there are multiple benefits to such > arrangements, so don't nobody go claiming I am anti-mentoring among the > blind. > > 2. Boot camp! Are you surprised? My conservatism is never far, but > seriously, two week sessions during the summer where adults travel to > Baltimore to get dipped in all levels of alternative techniques to get a > sense of what they could accomplish with the right attitude. Are we going > to shake the status quo? No, but I think it would be a damn fine start. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Antonio M. Guimaraes > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > Dear Marc, > > Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the > Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good > points. > > First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right > on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris > Danielson to write and distribute it. > > Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to > get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences > governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based > on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people > are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this > describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn > about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, > there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not > the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To > be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently > hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better > than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, > or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the > blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some > time ago. > > The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion > any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the > membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it > on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of > course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by > resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what > our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were > quietly ignoring this one. > > Sincerely, > > Antonio Guimaraes > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > Hello, > > I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to > draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. > > By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D > in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, > that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know > nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we > desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, > poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't > make one. > > I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into > an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential > election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect > reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, > without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever > else is interested. > > First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach > adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that > independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made > without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of > ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over > the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is > capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as > a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain > brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that > we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave > that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. > > Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something > of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to > ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to > beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to > succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of > determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently > the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries > out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of > affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to > succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of > determination. > > Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. > Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, > prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some > cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, > non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, > including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the > orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and > oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare > apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as > adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may > disagree. > > Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind > person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a > fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far > from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only > be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low > expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the > status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually > wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a > blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; > in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make > mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our > blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person > can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes > the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful > way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the > bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something > pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so > this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a > negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's > mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized > group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this > is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. > > Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press > releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going > into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write > and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets > picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or > informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh > well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time > condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it > in the first place. > > Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than > that, so I'll sign off for now. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > Carrie, > > Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own > version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you > are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme > example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. > People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. > The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic > status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the > individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow > his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for > the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which > society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are > only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose > to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" > rather than "reality?" > > Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, > that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to > understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination > to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people > who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and > protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. > > Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are > likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed > to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be > discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been > prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. > They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set > of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from > distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple > and the orange. > > No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. > But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall > memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like > commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know > you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole > family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic > unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party > and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the > party in the first place. > > As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not > at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally > not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough > people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes > minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough > blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking > generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend > comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted > population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that > stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. > > Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black > people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. > This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed > about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as > you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be > appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so > politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and > accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we > get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic > existence. > > If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there > should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn > Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I > mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career > aspirations. > > We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to > wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet > done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind > the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it > been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all > blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, > the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a > small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind > people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in > high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, > so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being > done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the > largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not > be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. > Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Carrie Gilmer > Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > Dear Joe, > Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal > reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is > exactly what you meant. > > For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they > reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere > as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. > > Try working in Rehab for a few years. > > I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up > with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up > blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel > alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to > become a good reader. > > Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black > people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut > back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to > slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was > expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to > say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... > > Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving > temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it > funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in > blacks? > > Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to > the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today > when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to > blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the > reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or > competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are > devastated in reality. That is funny? > > As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted > some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is > just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it > profane? We do place limits. > > For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense > of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name > they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. > > Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say > are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. > > It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the > tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of > opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke > is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with > something new, and is based in reality? > > The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching > the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when > that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not > perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. > > And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see > through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are > not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do > justice either in my opinion. > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the > National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home > Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original > Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > Carrie, > > Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told > they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, > chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of > blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization > growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the > achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or > not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to > behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person > as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of > the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be > more about socializing than it would be about advocating. > > I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked > reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is > sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the > more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? > > I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South > Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet > other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the > blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have > something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt > to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's > inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less > than perfect. > > Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual > acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, > we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow > I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other > blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, > blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the > sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? > > I just don't get it... > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Carrie Gilmer > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at > the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few > days. > The things I am considering are... > It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a > dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person > he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my > understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in > large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking > blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic > that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he > has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also > seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and > stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. > > So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in > non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have > everything read to him by readers... > > I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black > man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene > from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry > would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The > reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and > bumbling--lack of proper training does. > > It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on > the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means > so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) > and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the > National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home > Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original > Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of J.J. Meddaugh > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind > characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. > Personally, I found the skit funny. > > J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com > A premier licensed Code Factory distributor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > >>I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. >> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >>make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >>the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >>all of > that. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday Night Live Segment >> >> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >> As >> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >> show. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >> humanity."--James M. >> Barrie >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday Night Live Segment >> >> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >> >> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>> >>>NY Times: >>>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>> >>>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>/ >>>881501/ >>> >>>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>that does a real time search: >>>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>> >>>Best, >>>Mika >>>Twitter Micro blog: >>>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>Facebook: >>>http://profile.to/mika >>> >>>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>> Courtney >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>> any reason. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>> >>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>> >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>> Americans >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>> his > blindness. >>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>> l >>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>> % >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>> m >>>> ail.com >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>% >>>40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >> com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From mworkman at ualberta.ca Fri Dec 19 08:03:25 2008 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:03:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, Ah, I wondered why no response came. I was starting to think I had crossed a line, glad to see you can take the ribbing. No essay this time, just two points of clarification and one attempt at resolving a philosophical conundrum. First, I wasn't suggesting that religion, economy, and politics influence our upbringing, though that is undoubtedly true. I was actually gesturing at the social changes over the last 500 years that have allowed us to think of ourselves as free, autonomous, rational beings. I'm talking about things like secularization, the development of an economy, the creation of a public sphere, and the acceptance of natural law theory. I was suggesting that without these social changes, it literally wouldn't have been possible for you to think of yourself as someone who creates his own reality. It just couldn't be done 1000 years ago. I just find it interesting that we think the average person can step outside social influences when even being capable of having that thought depends entirely on the social changes I just pointed out. Let me put it another way, your upbringing, in a secular, individualistic, liberal democracy, is the only thing that allows you to think that you can overcome your upbringing. There is something contradictory about that in my mind. Second, I wasn't actually saying that blind people have an additional burden in their quest for success. I certainly think this is true, though I attribute the burden to environmental and social barriers (e.g., badly designed lanscapes, discrimination, lack of training, and so on). But I didn't bring up the additional burden blind people face. In fact, I was attributing that view to you. You said quote, "blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves", end quote. You then pointed out that it was indeed possible for blind people to muster up the required level of determination. My point was that blind people shouldn't have to muster up any more determination than the sighted. I'm saying that I don't care if it is possible for blind people to succeed; I want to live in a world where it is as easy for a blind person to succeed as it is for a sighted person. Until we get there, we shouldn't settle for it merely being possible for a sufficiently determined blind person to succeed. Lastly, I don't think I see a contradiction in holding both that blindness is no more than a characteristic, and that blind people face an additional burden resulting from their blindness. I would just say that the burden arises because others fail to recognize my blindness as nothing more than a characteristic. Many characteristics have been associated with facing additional burdens, for example, skin colour, religious faith, possessing two X chromosomes, etc). The fact that it is merely a characteristic doesn't mean others will see it that way. This is how I would resolve the apparent tension in the two positions. Though I will add that I think blindness is a much deeper part of my identity than height, hair colour, or eye colour. I can see how calling blindness a characteristic is politically expedient, but I don't think it's actually true, at least not for anyone whose been blind for a significant period of time. It's an interesting way of thinking about blindness nonetheless. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree as they say. The crux of it is that I think skits like the one in question, and movies like Blindness for that matter, have an actual negative impact on my life, through perpetuating myths about blindness that foster discrimination. You, on the other hand, think such portrayals are really quite harmless, and perhaps even helpful, in so far as they mainstream blindness. Can't think of how either of us would convince the other, but the discussion has at least been interesting. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 10:08 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Marc, That's interesting. I did not catch your post until Antonio responded to it. I've never known GMail to drop list messages, but regardless, you clearly put thought into your message. I'll briefly respond in kind: First, religion, economy and politics do influence our upbring and play a significant role in our choices as adults. Nevertheless, Americans live in an open society where our development is just as influenced by the diversity of our peers as it was by our own childhood. We do not live in a vacuum devoid of exposure to a plethora of cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic classes. In short, there is always something by which to compare yourself to something or someone else. The same media that tilts the depiction of blind people is the very same media that blind people access to stay abreast of technological advances, educational opportunities and role models. The point has nothing to do with any brand of conservatism. It has to do with access to information and training. I do not believe that the high percentage of blind people who are unemployed choose to be unemployed, but the one quarter of the blind population that is employed is a scenario that begs the question: How was this employment achieved? Are we to believe that only 26 percent of the population has successfully changed attitudes long enough to get themselves hired? I will venture to make a guess that the 74 percent unemployment rate is an outdated statistic that will actually drop with the expansion of the aforementioned technological advances. Perhaps I am naïve indeed, but I am optimistic about our generation's place in the workforce. Second, blind people should not have to fight to be the odds. Well, the truth is that no one should have to fight to be the odds. On a separate point I believe challenges build character, but speaking directly to your contention, you are suggesting blind people have an additional burden than the sighted in their quest for success. Now we have a philosophical conundrum. On the one hand there is the belief that blindness is nothing more than a nuisance, that blindness is no more characteristic than the color of your eyes and that with proper training you too can excel at whatever you desire. On the other hand it is being suggested that blindness presents a unique set of challenges that significantly impair a person's ability to compete on equal footing. People can't have it both ways. I am not so strict as to believe there are not logistical challenges to a blind person's journey to success. My point, however, is that these challenges have been met and overcome by scores of blind people under greater adversity than is the case in today's world. I believe our generation has been spoiled by the achievements of our leaders, and when we are incapable of obtaining a goal we would rather blame it on our environment, on discrimination, on life, anything other than ourselves. Life has never been fair, and if people woke up feeling as though no amount of work could ever pay off, there would be no point in getting up at all. There are people who fall through the cracks. The rest of us should reach out, but do you genuinely believe there are enough people out there willing to teach others how to read, how to cross streets, how to advocate for themselves, how to be generally independent? If there is general disagreement that even high levels of determination cannot guarantee success, I suggest there be a plan of action to change this dismal fact. Third, I'll grant you the history of the treatment of the blind is less than pleasant. If your point here was to suggest that Carrie's analogy of blindness to slavery was in fact a valid one, I'll concede the argument. History is replete with atrocities against humankind, and although I am well aware you are not suggesting this notion, I would offer the reminder that we not allow history to govern our future potential. Fourth, my reference to the clucking chicken has to do with Ben Underwood's use of clicking to familiarize himself with his surroundings. Whether or not the method is effective is a separate matter, but effective or not, it is not socially acceptable. I know that referencing social norms begs the question, "what is normal?" Yet the reality stands that such behavior lends credence that blind people are special, and not in a good way. Somehow these are the examples that the media picks up and distributes, and I have to wonder why this is the case? Surely in our midst of 50,000 members there are enough people who can go out as ambassadors to change these slanted perceptions. Or, is it that we only find ourselves highlighting the negative publicity? In either case, stereotypes exist of all social groups. If a sighted person sees a blind person rocking, that sighted person will assume that all blind people rock. Is it fair? Of course it's not fair, but it's human nature that clouds the judgment of the blind as much as it does of the sighted. SNL picked up on stereotypical depictions of the blind, but on the whole I do not see how their comedy will impair my quality of life. I recognize my actions in daily life among sighted peers will have more of a profound impact than a show segment that would have been forgotten had there not been an official statement that legitimized the show's humor. Finally, the issue of the press release itself is a debatable matter. I do not think I am as concerned with the distribution of the press release as much as I am about the impetus for its distribution. My reasons, I think, have already been sufficiently outlined. Again, a very well-organized, very thought-provoking contribution to the discussion. I'm glad you came out of lurk mode and hope to see more of your feedback. We may not agree here. I think I'll let it rest after this post, but one thing I have learned from this thread is that while critics of the NFB may accuse it of being too militaristic, I am wondering if it is not militaristic enough... In an additional response to Carrie's question of what I think we should do with our influence, I will add two specific ideas: 1. We should design a mentoring program between blind people and sighted ones. The program should be used as a tool to eliminate the mentality of us versus them, but on a more practical level I think I would learn more from a sighted counterpart than I might from a fellow blind member. No offense to my blind peeps, but unless I am interested in a career in blindness, my network needs to be out there, in the sighted world, where I hope to make a name for myself. Blind mentorship should not have to be an arrangement. It should be a natural occurrence, though there are multiple benefits to such arrangements, so don't nobody go claiming I am anti-mentoring among the blind. 2. Boot camp! Are you surprised? My conservatism is never far, but seriously, two week sessions during the summer where adults travel to Baltimore to get dipped in all levels of alternative techniques to get a sense of what they could accomplish with the right attitude. Are we going to shake the status quo? No, but I think it would be a damn fine start. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Marc, Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good points. First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris Danielson to write and distribute it. Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some time ago. The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were quietly ignoring this one. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 12:23:55 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 07:23:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment References: Message-ID: <006301c961d4$aa44dad0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Joe I aggree with your second idea of boot camp for the sited. I think they will gain a better understanding of how as a blind person we get things done. I think this will help a lot. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Marc, That's interesting. I did not catch your post until Antonio responded to it. I've never known GMail to drop list messages, but regardless, you clearly put thought into your message. I'll briefly respond in kind: First, religion, economy and politics do influence our upbring and play a significant role in our choices as adults. Nevertheless, Americans live in an open society where our development is just as influenced by the diversity of our peers as it was by our own childhood. We do not live in a vacuum devoid of exposure to a plethora of cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic classes. In short, there is always something by which to compare yourself to something or someone else. The same media that tilts the depiction of blind people is the very same media that blind people access to stay abreast of technological advances, educational opportunities and role models. The point has nothing to do with any brand of conservatism. It has to do with access to information and training. I do not believe that the high percentage of blind people who are unemployed choose to be unemployed, but the one quarter of the blind population that is employed is a scenario that begs the question: How was this employment achieved? Are we to believe that only 26 percent of the population has successfully changed attitudes long enough to get themselves hired? I will venture to make a guess that the 74 percent unemployment rate is an outdated statistic that will actually drop with the expansion of the aforementioned technological advances. Perhaps I am naïve indeed, but I am optimistic about our generation's place in the workforce. Second, blind people should not have to fight to be the odds. Well, the truth is that no one should have to fight to be the odds. On a separate point I believe challenges build character, but speaking directly to your contention, you are suggesting blind people have an additional burden than the sighted in their quest for success. Now we have a philosophical conundrum. On the one hand there is the belief that blindness is nothing more than a nuisance, that blindness is no more characteristic than the color of your eyes and that with proper training you too can excel at whatever you desire. On the other hand it is being suggested that blindness presents a unique set of challenges that significantly impair a person's ability to compete on equal footing. People can't have it both ways. I am not so strict as to believe there are not logistical challenges to a blind person's journey to success. My point, however, is that these challenges have been met and overcome by scores of blind people under greater adversity than is the case in today's world. I believe our generation has been spoiled by the achievements of our leaders, and when we are incapable of obtaining a goal we would rather blame it on our environment, on discrimination, on life, anything other than ourselves. Life has never been fair, and if people woke up feeling as though no amount of work could ever pay off, there would be no point in getting up at all. There are people who fall through the cracks. The rest of us should reach out, but do you genuinely believe there are enough people out there willing to teach others how to read, how to cross streets, how to advocate for themselves, how to be generally independent? If there is general disagreement that even high levels of determination cannot guarantee success, I suggest there be a plan of action to change this dismal fact. Third, I'll grant you the history of the treatment of the blind is less than pleasant. If your point here was to suggest that Carrie's analogy of blindness to slavery was in fact a valid one, I'll concede the argument. History is replete with atrocities against humankind, and although I am well aware you are not suggesting this notion, I would offer the reminder that we not allow history to govern our future potential. Fourth, my reference to the clucking chicken has to do with Ben Underwood's use of clicking to familiarize himself with his surroundings. Whether or not the method is effective is a separate matter, but effective or not, it is not socially acceptable. I know that referencing social norms begs the question, "what is normal?" Yet the reality stands that such behavior lends credence that blind people are special, and not in a good way. Somehow these are the examples that the media picks up and distributes, and I have to wonder why this is the case? Surely in our midst of 50,000 members there are enough people who can go out as ambassadors to change these slanted perceptions. Or, is it that we only find ourselves highlighting the negative publicity? In either case, stereotypes exist of all social groups. If a sighted person sees a blind person rocking, that sighted person will assume that all blind people rock. Is it fair? Of course it's not fair, but it's human nature that clouds the judgment of the blind as much as it does of the sighted. SNL picked up on stereotypical depictions of the blind, but on the whole I do not see how their comedy will impair my quality of life. I recognize my actions in daily life among sighted peers will have more of a profound impact than a show segment that would have been forgotten had there not been an official statement that legitimized the show's humor. Finally, the issue of the press release itself is a debatable matter. I do not think I am as concerned with the distribution of the press release as much as I am about the impetus for its distribution. My reasons, I think, have already been sufficiently outlined. Again, a very well-organized, very thought-provoking contribution to the discussion. I'm glad you came out of lurk mode and hope to see more of your feedback. We may not agree here. I think I'll let it rest after this post, but one thing I have learned from this thread is that while critics of the NFB may accuse it of being too militaristic, I am wondering if it is not militaristic enough... In an additional response to Carrie's question of what I think we should do with our influence, I will add two specific ideas: 1. We should design a mentoring program between blind people and sighted ones. The program should be used as a tool to eliminate the mentality of us versus them, but on a more practical level I think I would learn more from a sighted counterpart than I might from a fellow blind member. No offense to my blind peeps, but unless I am interested in a career in blindness, my network needs to be out there, in the sighted world, where I hope to make a name for myself. Blind mentorship should not have to be an arrangement. It should be a natural occurrence, though there are multiple benefits to such arrangements, so don't nobody go claiming I am anti-mentoring among the blind. 2. Boot camp! Are you surprised? My conservatism is never far, but seriously, two week sessions during the summer where adults travel to Baltimore to get dipped in all levels of alternative techniques to get a sense of what they could accomplish with the right attitude. Are we going to shake the status quo? No, but I think it would be a damn fine start. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Marc, Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good points. First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris Danielson to write and distribute it. Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some time ago. The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were quietly ignoring this one. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 16:54:43 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:54:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] SNL In-Reply-To: <494B0044.8060109@gmail.com> References: <494a6202.1f068e0a.7599.ffffa188@mx.google.com> <7949e5e20812181043v2a1334dbx6da8e2298b74ce59@mail.gmail.com> <494B0044.8060109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812190854q24f5bc6ah7a7e97c08538efc7@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Hannah. That skit was just wrong, especially when Paterson says, "I'm a blind man who loves cocaine." Excuse me, but not all blind people are drug users. I'm not, thank God. And neither is Paterson, I think. Beth On 12/18/08, hannah jones wrote: > Well, i finally just watched it. It was just wrong. Way wrong. > > > Linda Stover wrote: >> Marsha, >> >> Here's a link where you can view it. I checked the link, so I know it >> is valid and does indeed show the aforementioned skit. >> >> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson/881501/ >> >> On 12/18/08, Marsha wrote: >> >>> I missed the show itself, but is there some place I could see it now. If >>> anyone has it or knows where I can see it please pass along the link or >>> the >>> file. It would be much appreciated! >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 3702 (20081218) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hjones711%40gmail.com >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 20:45:50 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:45:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <006301c961d4$aa44dad0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: Well, I actually meant the boot camp should be for blind people, but yeah, I guess we could put some blind folds on the general public and let them experience the truth that blindness is not all that bad. Best, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 7:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Joe I aggree with your second idea of boot camp for the sited. I think they will gain a better understanding of how as a blind person we get things done. I think this will help a lot. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Marc, That's interesting. I did not catch your post until Antonio responded to it. I've never known GMail to drop list messages, but regardless, you clearly put thought into your message. I'll briefly respond in kind: First, religion, economy and politics do influence our upbring and play a significant role in our choices as adults. Nevertheless, Americans live in an open society where our development is just as influenced by the diversity of our peers as it was by our own childhood. We do not live in a vacuum devoid of exposure to a plethora of cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic classes. In short, there is always something by which to compare yourself to something or someone else. The same media that tilts the depiction of blind people is the very same media that blind people access to stay abreast of technological advances, educational opportunities and role models. The point has nothing to do with any brand of conservatism. It has to do with access to information and training. I do not believe that the high percentage of blind people who are unemployed choose to be unemployed, but the one quarter of the blind population that is employed is a scenario that begs the question: How was this employment achieved? Are we to believe that only 26 percent of the population has successfully changed attitudes long enough to get themselves hired? I will venture to make a guess that the 74 percent unemployment rate is an outdated statistic that will actually drop with the expansion of the aforementioned technological advances. Perhaps I am naïve indeed, but I am optimistic about our generation's place in the workforce. Second, blind people should not have to fight to be the odds. Well, the truth is that no one should have to fight to be the odds. On a separate point I believe challenges build character, but speaking directly to your contention, you are suggesting blind people have an additional burden than the sighted in their quest for success. Now we have a philosophical conundrum. On the one hand there is the belief that blindness is nothing more than a nuisance, that blindness is no more characteristic than the color of your eyes and that with proper training you too can excel at whatever you desire. On the other hand it is being suggested that blindness presents a unique set of challenges that significantly impair a person's ability to compete on equal footing. People can't have it both ways. I am not so strict as to believe there are not logistical challenges to a blind person's journey to success. My point, however, is that these challenges have been met and overcome by scores of blind people under greater adversity than is the case in today's world. I believe our generation has been spoiled by the achievements of our leaders, and when we are incapable of obtaining a goal we would rather blame it on our environment, on discrimination, on life, anything other than ourselves. Life has never been fair, and if people woke up feeling as though no amount of work could ever pay off, there would be no point in getting up at all. There are people who fall through the cracks. The rest of us should reach out, but do you genuinely believe there are enough people out there willing to teach others how to read, how to cross streets, how to advocate for themselves, how to be generally independent? If there is general disagreement that even high levels of determination cannot guarantee success, I suggest there be a plan of action to change this dismal fact. Third, I'll grant you the history of the treatment of the blind is less than pleasant. If your point here was to suggest that Carrie's analogy of blindness to slavery was in fact a valid one, I'll concede the argument. History is replete with atrocities against humankind, and although I am well aware you are not suggesting this notion, I would offer the reminder that we not allow history to govern our future potential. Fourth, my reference to the clucking chicken has to do with Ben Underwood's use of clicking to familiarize himself with his surroundings. Whether or not the method is effective is a separate matter, but effective or not, it is not socially acceptable. I know that referencing social norms begs the question, "what is normal?" Yet the reality stands that such behavior lends credence that blind people are special, and not in a good way. Somehow these are the examples that the media picks up and distributes, and I have to wonder why this is the case? Surely in our midst of 50,000 members there are enough people who can go out as ambassadors to change these slanted perceptions. Or, is it that we only find ourselves highlighting the negative publicity? In either case, stereotypes exist of all social groups. If a sighted person sees a blind person rocking, that sighted person will assume that all blind people rock. Is it fair? Of course it's not fair, but it's human nature that clouds the judgment of the blind as much as it does of the sighted. SNL picked up on stereotypical depictions of the blind, but on the whole I do not see how their comedy will impair my quality of life. I recognize my actions in daily life among sighted peers will have more of a profound impact than a show segment that would have been forgotten had there not been an official statement that legitimized the show's humor. Finally, the issue of the press release itself is a debatable matter. I do not think I am as concerned with the distribution of the press release as much as I am about the impetus for its distribution. My reasons, I think, have already been sufficiently outlined. Again, a very well-organized, very thought-provoking contribution to the discussion. I'm glad you came out of lurk mode and hope to see more of your feedback. We may not agree here. I think I'll let it rest after this post, but one thing I have learned from this thread is that while critics of the NFB may accuse it of being too militaristic, I am wondering if it is not militaristic enough... In an additional response to Carrie's question of what I think we should do with our influence, I will add two specific ideas: 1. We should design a mentoring program between blind people and sighted ones. The program should be used as a tool to eliminate the mentality of us versus them, but on a more practical level I think I would learn more from a sighted counterpart than I might from a fellow blind member. No offense to my blind peeps, but unless I am interested in a career in blindness, my network needs to be out there, in the sighted world, where I hope to make a name for myself. Blind mentorship should not have to be an arrangement. It should be a natural occurrence, though there are multiple benefits to such arrangements, so don't nobody go claiming I am anti-mentoring among the blind. 2. Boot camp! Are you surprised? My conservatism is never far, but seriously, two week sessions during the summer where adults travel to Baltimore to get dipped in all levels of alternative techniques to get a sense of what they could accomplish with the right attitude. Are we going to shake the status quo? No, but I think it would be a damn fine start. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Marc, Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good points. First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris Danielson to write and distribute it. Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some time ago. The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were quietly ignoring this one. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 00:10:48 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:10:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment References: Message-ID: <003901c96237$6a3fcfe0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Well why not! maybe they would get a gradder respect for how we do things. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Well, I actually meant the boot camp should be for blind people, but yeah, I guess we could put some blind folds on the general public and let them experience the truth that blindness is not all that bad. Best, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 7:24 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Joe I aggree with your second idea of boot camp for the sited. I think they will gain a better understanding of how as a blind person we get things done. I think this will help a lot. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 12:07 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Marc, That's interesting. I did not catch your post until Antonio responded to it. I've never known GMail to drop list messages, but regardless, you clearly put thought into your message. I'll briefly respond in kind: First, religion, economy and politics do influence our upbring and play a significant role in our choices as adults. Nevertheless, Americans live in an open society where our development is just as influenced by the diversity of our peers as it was by our own childhood. We do not live in a vacuum devoid of exposure to a plethora of cultures, ethnicities and socioeconomic classes. In short, there is always something by which to compare yourself to something or someone else. The same media that tilts the depiction of blind people is the very same media that blind people access to stay abreast of technological advances, educational opportunities and role models. The point has nothing to do with any brand of conservatism. It has to do with access to information and training. I do not believe that the high percentage of blind people who are unemployed choose to be unemployed, but the one quarter of the blind population that is employed is a scenario that begs the question: How was this employment achieved? Are we to believe that only 26 percent of the population has successfully changed attitudes long enough to get themselves hired? I will venture to make a guess that the 74 percent unemployment rate is an outdated statistic that will actually drop with the expansion of the aforementioned technological advances. Perhaps I am naïve indeed, but I am optimistic about our generation's place in the workforce. Second, blind people should not have to fight to be the odds. Well, the truth is that no one should have to fight to be the odds. On a separate point I believe challenges build character, but speaking directly to your contention, you are suggesting blind people have an additional burden than the sighted in their quest for success. Now we have a philosophical conundrum. On the one hand there is the belief that blindness is nothing more than a nuisance, that blindness is no more characteristic than the color of your eyes and that with proper training you too can excel at whatever you desire. On the other hand it is being suggested that blindness presents a unique set of challenges that significantly impair a person's ability to compete on equal footing. People can't have it both ways. I am not so strict as to believe there are not logistical challenges to a blind person's journey to success. My point, however, is that these challenges have been met and overcome by scores of blind people under greater adversity than is the case in today's world. I believe our generation has been spoiled by the achievements of our leaders, and when we are incapable of obtaining a goal we would rather blame it on our environment, on discrimination, on life, anything other than ourselves. Life has never been fair, and if people woke up feeling as though no amount of work could ever pay off, there would be no point in getting up at all. There are people who fall through the cracks. The rest of us should reach out, but do you genuinely believe there are enough people out there willing to teach others how to read, how to cross streets, how to advocate for themselves, how to be generally independent? If there is general disagreement that even high levels of determination cannot guarantee success, I suggest there be a plan of action to change this dismal fact. Third, I'll grant you the history of the treatment of the blind is less than pleasant. If your point here was to suggest that Carrie's analogy of blindness to slavery was in fact a valid one, I'll concede the argument. History is replete with atrocities against humankind, and although I am well aware you are not suggesting this notion, I would offer the reminder that we not allow history to govern our future potential. Fourth, my reference to the clucking chicken has to do with Ben Underwood's use of clicking to familiarize himself with his surroundings. Whether or not the method is effective is a separate matter, but effective or not, it is not socially acceptable. I know that referencing social norms begs the question, "what is normal?" Yet the reality stands that such behavior lends credence that blind people are special, and not in a good way. Somehow these are the examples that the media picks up and distributes, and I have to wonder why this is the case? Surely in our midst of 50,000 members there are enough people who can go out as ambassadors to change these slanted perceptions. Or, is it that we only find ourselves highlighting the negative publicity? In either case, stereotypes exist of all social groups. If a sighted person sees a blind person rocking, that sighted person will assume that all blind people rock. Is it fair? Of course it's not fair, but it's human nature that clouds the judgment of the blind as much as it does of the sighted. SNL picked up on stereotypical depictions of the blind, but on the whole I do not see how their comedy will impair my quality of life. I recognize my actions in daily life among sighted peers will have more of a profound impact than a show segment that would have been forgotten had there not been an official statement that legitimized the show's humor. Finally, the issue of the press release itself is a debatable matter. I do not think I am as concerned with the distribution of the press release as much as I am about the impetus for its distribution. My reasons, I think, have already been sufficiently outlined. Again, a very well-organized, very thought-provoking contribution to the discussion. I'm glad you came out of lurk mode and hope to see more of your feedback. We may not agree here. I think I'll let it rest after this post, but one thing I have learned from this thread is that while critics of the NFB may accuse it of being too militaristic, I am wondering if it is not militaristic enough... In an additional response to Carrie's question of what I think we should do with our influence, I will add two specific ideas: 1. We should design a mentoring program between blind people and sighted ones. The program should be used as a tool to eliminate the mentality of us versus them, but on a more practical level I think I would learn more from a sighted counterpart than I might from a fellow blind member. No offense to my blind peeps, but unless I am interested in a career in blindness, my network needs to be out there, in the sighted world, where I hope to make a name for myself. Blind mentorship should not have to be an arrangement. It should be a natural occurrence, though there are multiple benefits to such arrangements, so don't nobody go claiming I am anti-mentoring among the blind. 2. Boot camp! Are you surprised? My conservatism is never far, but seriously, two week sessions during the summer where adults travel to Baltimore to get dipped in all levels of alternative techniques to get a sense of what they could accomplish with the right attitude. Are we going to shake the status quo? No, but I think it would be a damn fine start. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 5:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Marc, Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good points. First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris Danielson to write and distribute it. Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some time ago. The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were quietly ignoring this one. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com 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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Dec 20 00:37:18 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:37:18 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Message-ID: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Carrie, I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I will not write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows that you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and life presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not choose our parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents lacked the patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher showed me as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My parents did support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, etc. Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child will read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do create reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see it? I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be forgotten. Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush’s speech is made fun of a lot. I don’t know whether I am offended not seeing the clip. But sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change and break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than being defensive about media clips. For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked up by CNN; my mom saw it and told me. Ashley -----Original Message----- >From: Carrie Gilmer >Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > >Dear Joe, >Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never said I >disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " there is >an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough go >getters" and that with just the right training the world can be theirs. My >response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide variety of >those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for decades >and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic over-all >perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the >tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and what >some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally back and >need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as best they >can and some because of the variability of humans in general never had much >toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep belief it >is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had opportunity >with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do achieve >great things for themselves. > >And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity are >their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are equal >in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or levels >of things that have come against them or levels of things to come back. I am >not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there are more >than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your earlier >posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that have >been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every opportunity. >Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do not >have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not even be >aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am also >aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who can rise >up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects anything >at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside intervention. > >I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly can not >break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with blindness >it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and a lack >of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that generally >sighted people trying to break free of their families or circumstances do >not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are not >capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in many >cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even in one >life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that happens >uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there are >inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of them and >neither do they often break out and create high expectations for themselves. > > >I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall or >ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep faith in >people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and challenges >in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is not so >simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a lot of >grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in many >things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally changing for >the blind person except where access should reasonably be allowed--meaning >it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the other >hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means to be >blind. > >And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and misconceptions >perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of access, etc. >Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a group hard >and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us to come >at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped give >advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to the >outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not exclude >the other. > >I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >philosophy class with you. > >I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. > > >Carrie Gilmer, President >National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >www.nfb.org/nopbc >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Joe Orozco >Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > >Carrie, > >People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too lofty. A >blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind relative's >abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind >character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may very >well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people to >know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they >should feel so inclined. > >The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a goal, >and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, the >goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if that >person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person >should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to >achieve it in the first place. > >There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, but >strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It has >never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. >Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help fuel the >person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee the >person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their own >prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your own >definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because >anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may >attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would have >unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. > >As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my arguments >would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle of a >developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United States may >not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities enjoyed >here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the >world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too far in >their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the privilege >of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. > >I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to work >under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking >victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. > >I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because they >are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim of >hate crimes because he is gay? > >I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind people >are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it your >belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their circumstances? >Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on the >person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the >problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human nature, >and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a person's >inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. > >You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should have >said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but >regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what >constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue that >the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance of one >of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core >Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be good, >but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that >Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would venture >to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means of >articulating the same point. > >Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of >their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are not >owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these limitations. >You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person held >responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the hypothesis >that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? To >me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the environment to >change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may sit >well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. > >The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a >mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, that >makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily defensive >and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed >reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so delicate as >to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the segment at >all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the show's >impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment >turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or not >blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in the >skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using this >format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques would >not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it your >position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because blind >people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >experience? > >Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use of >our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could take >another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. If >push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for now >let's call that one a to be continued... > >Joe Orozco > >"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. >Barrie >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Carrie Gilmer >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > >Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have found >the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. > > > > People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal >control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you >react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and >opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the choices >or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their view >of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes determination >is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job >early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished despite >his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality I >think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think they >have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn >intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We have >reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a fantasy >truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice becomes a >personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always free >or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our choosing. I >suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally responsible >for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and white >and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they >are all powerful. It also doesn’t mean that those who are now powerless >can't be empowered. > > > >Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he did. >I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to >employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. > > > >If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am full >of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before in >history. > > > >On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people >have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes many >forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of >unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you think >some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are >blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born of >pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for whom >they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind people >were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely >perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind black >people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I used >compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for >blind people. > > > >I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its thoughts >about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not my >experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of ability, >of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said we >have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can >help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential >but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who just >do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or get >out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of available >training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need our >rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. > > > > Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy way >out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a >free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem to >enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person around. >Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to >change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to >read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who >learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some things >that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people >both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability of >their eyeballs. > > > > If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or misunderstanding >never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't >believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something >and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed along >(if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we >are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To me >there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways we >all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of >blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead to >in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives them >the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully creative >and bright. > > > >I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself >about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and the >laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it >shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I think >they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is the >oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were >being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the >governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and >everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole >world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they pulled >at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how >bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a little? >I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how much >is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not look >blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I think >it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the person >who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a cane >and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a >minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would not >have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind people >fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do >sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because >they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind justice >super blind character. > > > >They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek when >the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the >audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and creative >when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of >their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and do >applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the way >to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. It >depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the truth >does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are really >just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand >why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or others >who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in >some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness at >all. > > > >I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the >majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the >same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people who >exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind people >would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children would >just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are >because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind >adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and >training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption they >could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such a >problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple and >all on the blind as all that. > > > >You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible >things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the >strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it..." >Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray blind >people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. >Use our strength how? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Carrie Gilmer, President > >National Organization of Parents of Blind Children > >A Division of the National Federation of the Blind > >NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 > >Home Phone: 763-784-8590 > >carrie.gilmer at gmail.com > >www.nfb.org/nopbc > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Joe Orozco > >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM > >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > >Carrie, > > > >Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own > >version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you > >are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme > >example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. > >People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. > >The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic > >status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the > >individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow > >his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for > >the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which > >society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are > >only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose > >to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" > >rather than "reality?" > > > >Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, > >that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to > >understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination > >to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people > >who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and > >protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. > > > >Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are > >likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed > >to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be > >discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been > >prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. > >They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set > >of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from > >distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple > >and the orange. > > > >No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. > >But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall > >memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like > >commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know > >you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole > >family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic > >unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party > >and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the > >party in the first place. > > > >As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not > >at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally > >not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough > >people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes > >minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough > >blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking > >generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend > >comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted > >population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that > >stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. > > > >Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black > >people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. > >This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed > >about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as > >you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be > >appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so > >politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and > >accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we > >get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic > >existence. > > > >If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there > >should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn > >Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I > >mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career > >aspirations. > > > >We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to > >wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet > >done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind > >the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it > >been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all > >blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, > >the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a > >small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind > >people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in > >high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, > >so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being > >done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the > >largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not > >be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. > >Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. > > > >Joe Orozco > > > >"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. > >Barrie > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > >Of Carrie Gilmer > >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM > >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > >Dear Joe, > >Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal > >reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is > >exactly what you meant. > > > >For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they > >reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere > >as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. > > > >Try working in Rehab for a few years. > > > >I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up > >with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up > >blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel > >alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to > >become a good reader. > > > >Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black > >people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut > >back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to > >slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was > >expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to > >say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... > > > >Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving > >temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it > >funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in > >blacks? > > > >Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to > >the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today > >when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to > >blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the > >reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or > >competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are > >devastated in reality. That is funny? > > > >As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted > >some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is > >just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it > >profane? We do place limits. > > > >For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense > >of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name > >they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. > > > >Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say > >are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. > > > >It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the > >tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of > >opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke > >is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with > >something new, and is based in reality? > > > >The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching > >the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when > >that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not > >perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. > > > >And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see > >through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are > >not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do > >justice either in my opinion. > > > > > > > >Carrie Gilmer, President > >National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the > >National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home > >Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original > >Message----- > >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > >Of Joe Orozco > >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM > >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > >Carrie, > > > >Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told > >they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, > >chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of > >blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization > >growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the > >achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or > >not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to > >behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person > >as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of > >the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be > >more about socializing than it would be about advocating. > > > >I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked > >reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is > >sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the > >more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? > > > >I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South > >Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet > >other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the > >blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have > >something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt > >to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's > >inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less > >than perfect. > > > >Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual > >acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, > >we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow > >I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other > >blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, > >blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the > >sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? > > > >I just don't get it... > > > >Joe Orozco > > > >"Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. > >Barrie > >-----Original Message----- > >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > >Of Carrie Gilmer > >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM > >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > > >I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at > >the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few > >days. > >The things I am considering are... > >It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a > >dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person > >he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my > >understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in > >large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking > >blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic > >that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he > >has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also > >seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and > >stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. > > > >So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in > >non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have > >everything read to him by readers... > > > >I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black > >man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene > >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry > >would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The > >reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and > >bumbling--lack of proper training does. > > > >It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on > >the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means > >so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) > >and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... > > > > > > > >Carrie Gilmer, President > >National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the > >National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home > >Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original > >Message----- > >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > >Of J.J. Meddaugh > >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday > >Night Live Segment > > > >That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind > >characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. > >Personally, I found the skit funny. > > > >J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com > >A premier licensed Code Factory distributor > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > >To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > > >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > >Night Live Segment > > > > > >>I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > >> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting > >>stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to > >>make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of > >>the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without > >>all of > >that. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >> Behalf Of Joe Orozco > >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > >> onSaturday Night Live Segment > >> > >> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > >> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > >> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > >> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > >> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > >> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > >> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > >> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > >> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > >> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > >> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > >> As > >> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > >> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > >> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > >> show. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Joe Orozco > >> > >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > >> humanity."--James M. > >> Barrie > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > >> onSaturday Night Live Segment > >> > >> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > >> > >> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > >> > >> Joseph > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: > >>>Hi, > >>> > >>>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an > >>>article I liked on Facebook, see below. > >>> > >>>NY Times: > >>>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays > >>>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) > >>> > >>>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: > >>>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson > >>>/ > >>>881501/ > >>> > >>>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below > >>>that does a real time search: > >>>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind > >>>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 > >>>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that > >>>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. > >>> > >>>Best, > >>>Mika > >>>Twitter Micro blog: > >>>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala > >>>Facebook: > >>>http://profile.to/mika > >>> > >>>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning > >>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to > >>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or > >>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the > >>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching > >>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain > >>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten > >>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what > >>>> exactly the comics were paridying. > >>>> Courtney > >>>> > >>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: > >>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. > >>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to > >>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for > >>>>> any reason. > >>>>> Beth > >>>>> > >>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: > >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> CONTACT: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Chris Danielsen > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Public Relations Specialist > >>>>>> > >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind > >>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind > >>>>>> Americans > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, > >>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The > >>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but > >>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and > >>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the > >>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is > >>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an > >>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 > >>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is > >>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor > >>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on > >>>>>> his > >blindness. > >>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all > >>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and > >>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The > >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday > >>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that > >>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before > >>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ### > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>> for > >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis > >>>>>> l > >>>>>> oose%40gmail.com > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten > >>>>> % > >>>>> 40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g > >>>> m > >>>> ail.com > >>>> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph > >>>% > >>>40gmail.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > >> ronto.ca > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > >> com > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai > >l.com > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai > >l.com > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >l.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net Merry Christmas and Happy New Year From dandrews at visi.com Sat Dec 20 16:08:27 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:08:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: WebAim is conducting a screen reader survey Message-ID: >Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 03:36:16 -0500 >From: Jennison Mark Asuncion >Subject: WebAim is conducting a screen reader survey >To: EASI at LISTSERV.ICORS.ORG > >Hello, > >The folks at WebAim www.webaim.org are conducting, to my memory, the >first comprehensive survey of its kind on screen reader use. I've >included information on the survey below. Please pass along through >your networks. > >Jennison > >Jennison Asuncion >Co-Director, Adaptech Research Network http://www.adaptech.org >LinkedIn at http://www.linkedin.com/in/jennison > > >From: Jared Smith >Subject: [WebAIM] Screen reader survey > >WebAIM is conducting a survey of screen reader users - >http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey/ > >Web accessibility experts often say something like, "Screen reader >users prefer?" followed by some accessibility recommendation. However, >many of these recommendations are based on personal preference or >conjecture - often from sighted users who only test with screen >readers. The fact is that there is little data about screen reader >usage to back up these recommendations. > >This survey will ask screen reader users about their usage and >preferences. If you are a full-time, part-time, or even occasional >screen reader user, please take a few minutes to complete the survey >and provide us with a few details on your screen reader usage and >preferences. We will be comparing results between those that rely on >screen readers and those that primarily use them for evaluation and >testing, so all screen reader users are invited to respond. Your >feedback will help influence the accessibility techniques that web >developers implement and that experts recommend. We'll be posting the >survey results in a few months. > >Please post this announcement and/or the URL to other accessibility, >disability, and assistive technology lists. More screen reader user >responses will help solidify the recommendations made. > >http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey/ >w >Jared Smith >WebAIM >_______________________________________________ From spangler.robert at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 17:36:08 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:36:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making fun of Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi Carrie, > > I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I will not write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows that you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and life presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not choose our parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents lacked the patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher showed me as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My parents did support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, etc. Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child will read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do create reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. > > As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see it? I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be forgotten. Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush’s speech is made fun of a lot. I don’t know whether I am offended not seeing the clip. But sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change and break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than being defensive about media clips. > For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked up by CNN; my mom saw it and told me. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: Carrie Gilmer >> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> Dear Joe, >> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never said I >> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " there is >> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough go >> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be theirs. My >> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide variety of >> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for decades >> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic over-all >> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the >> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and what >> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally back and >> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as best they >> can and some because of the variability of humans in general never had much >> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep belief it >> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had opportunity >> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do achieve >> great things for themselves. >> >> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity are >> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are equal >> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or levels >> of things that have come against them or levels of things to come back. I am >> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there are more >> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your earlier >> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that have >> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every opportunity. >> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do not >> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not even be >> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am also >> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who can rise >> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects anything >> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside intervention. >> >> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly can not >> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with blindness >> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and a lack >> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that generally >> sighted people trying to break free of their families or circumstances do >> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are not >> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in many >> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even in one >> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that happens >> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there are >> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of them and >> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for themselves. >> >> >> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall or >> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep faith in >> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and challenges >> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is not so >> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a lot of >> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in many >> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally changing for >> the blind person except where access should reasonably be allowed--meaning >> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the other >> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means to be >> blind. >> >> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and misconceptions >> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of access, etc. >> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a group hard >> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us to come >> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped give >> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to the >> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not exclude >> the other. >> >> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >> philosophy class with you. >> >> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >> >> >> Carrie Gilmer, President >> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >> www.nfb.org/nopbc >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Joe Orozco >> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> Carrie, >> >> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too lofty. A >> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind relative's >> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind >> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may very >> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people to >> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they >> should feel so inclined. >> >> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a goal, >> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, the >> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if that >> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person >> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to >> achieve it in the first place. >> >> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, but >> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It has >> never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. >> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help fuel the >> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee the >> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their own >> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your own >> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because >> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may >> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would have >> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >> >> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my arguments >> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle of a >> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United States may >> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities enjoyed >> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the >> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too far in >> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the privilege >> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >> >> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to work >> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking >> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >> >> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because they >> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim of >> hate crimes because he is gay? >> >> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind people >> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it your >> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their circumstances? >> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on the >> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the >> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human nature, >> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a person's >> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane crash. >> >> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should have >> said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but >> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what >> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue that >> the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance of one >> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core >> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be good, >> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that >> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would venture >> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means of >> articulating the same point. >> >> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of >> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are not >> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these limitations. >> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person held >> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the hypothesis >> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? To >> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the environment to >> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may sit >> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >> >> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a >> mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, that >> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily defensive >> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed >> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so delicate as >> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the segment at >> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the show's >> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment >> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or not >> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in the >> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using this >> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques would >> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it your >> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because blind >> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >> experience? >> >> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use of >> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could take >> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. If >> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for now >> let's call that one a to be continued... >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. >> Barrie >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Carrie Gilmer >> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have found >> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. >> >> >> >> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal >> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you >> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and >> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the choices >> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their view >> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes determination >> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job >> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished despite >> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality I >> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think they >> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn >> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We have >> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a fantasy >> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice becomes a >> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always free >> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our choosing. I >> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally responsible >> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and white >> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they >> are all powerful. It also doesn’t mean that those who are now powerless >> can't be empowered. >> >> >> >> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he did. >> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to >> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >> >> >> >> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am full >> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before in >> history. >> >> >> >> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people >> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes many >> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of >> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you think >> some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are >> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born of >> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for whom >> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind people >> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely >> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind black >> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I used >> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for >> blind people. >> >> >> >> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its thoughts >> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not my >> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of ability, >> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said we >> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can >> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential >> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who just >> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or get >> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of available >> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need our >> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >> >> >> >> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy way >> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a >> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem to >> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person around. >> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to >> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to >> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who >> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some things >> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people >> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability of >> their eyeballs. >> >> >> >> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or misunderstanding >> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't >> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something >> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed along >> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we >> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To me >> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways we >> all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of >> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead to >> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives them >> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully creative >> and bright. >> >> >> >> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself >> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and the >> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it >> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I think >> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is the >> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were >> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the >> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and >> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole >> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they pulled >> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how >> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a little? >> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how much >> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not look >> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I think >> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the person >> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a cane >> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a >> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would not >> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind people >> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do >> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because >> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind justice >> super blind character. >> >> >> >> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek when >> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the >> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and creative >> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of >> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and do >> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the way >> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. It >> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the truth >> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are really >> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand >> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or others >> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in >> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness at >> all. >> >> >> >> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the >> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the >> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people who >> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind people >> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children would >> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are >> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind >> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and >> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption they >> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such a >> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple and >> all on the blind as all that. >> >> >> >> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible >> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the >> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it..." >> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray blind >> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. >> Use our strength how? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Carrie Gilmer, President >> >> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >> >> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >> >> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >> >> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >> >> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >> >> www.nfb.org/nopbc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Joe Orozco >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >> >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> Carrie, >> >> >> >> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own >> >> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you >> >> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme >> >> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. >> >> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. >> >> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic >> >> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the >> >> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow >> >> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for >> >> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which >> >> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are >> >> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose >> >> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" >> >> rather than "reality?" >> >> >> >> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, >> >> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >> >> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination >> >> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people >> >> who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and >> >> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >> >> >> >> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are >> >> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed >> >> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be >> >> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been >> >> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. >> >> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set >> >> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >> >> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple >> >> and the orange. >> >> >> >> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. >> >> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall >> >> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >> >> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know >> >> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole >> >> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic >> >> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party >> >> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the >> >> party in the first place. >> >> >> >> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not >> >> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally >> >> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough >> >> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >> >> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough >> >> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking >> >> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend >> >> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted >> >> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that >> >> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >> >> >> >> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black >> >> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. >> >> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed >> >> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as >> >> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be >> >> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >> >> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >> >> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we >> >> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic >> >> existence. >> >> >> >> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there >> >> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn >> >> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I >> >> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career >> >> aspirations. >> >> >> >> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to >> >> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet >> >> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind >> >> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it >> >> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all >> >> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, >> >> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a >> >> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind >> >> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in >> >> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, >> >> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being >> >> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the >> >> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not >> >> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. >> >> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >> >> >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. >> >> Barrie >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> >> Of Carrie Gilmer >> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >> >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> Dear Joe, >> >> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal >> >> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is >> >> exactly what you meant. >> >> >> >> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they >> >> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere >> >> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >> >> >> >> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >> >> >> >> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up >> >> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up >> >> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel >> >> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to >> >> become a good reader. >> >> >> >> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black >> >> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut >> >> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to >> >> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was >> >> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to >> >> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >> >> >> >> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving >> >> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it >> >> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in >> >> blacks? >> >> >> >> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to >> >> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today >> >> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to >> >> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the >> >> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >> >> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >> >> devastated in reality. That is funny? >> >> >> >> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted >> >> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is >> >> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it >> >> profane? We do place limits. >> >> >> >> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense >> >> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name >> >> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. >> >> >> >> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say >> >> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >> >> >> >> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the >> >> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of >> >> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke >> >> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with >> >> something new, and is based in reality? >> >> >> >> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching >> >> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when >> >> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not >> >> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. >> >> >> >> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see >> >> through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are >> >> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do >> >> justice either in my opinion. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Carrie Gilmer, President >> >> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >> >> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >> >> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original >> >> Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> >> Of Joe Orozco >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >> >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> Carrie, >> >> >> >> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told >> >> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, >> >> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of >> >> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization >> >> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >> >> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or >> >> not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to >> >> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person >> >> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of >> >> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be >> >> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >> >> >> >> I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked >> >> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is >> >> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the >> >> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? >> >> >> >> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South >> >> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet >> >> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the >> >> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have >> >> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt >> >> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's >> >> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less >> >> than perfect. >> >> >> >> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual >> >> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, >> >> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow >> >> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other >> >> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, >> >> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the >> >> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >> >> >> >> I just don't get it... >> >> >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. >> >> Barrie >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> >> Of Carrie Gilmer >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >> >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at >> >> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few >> >> days. >> >> The things I am considering are... >> >> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a >> >> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person >> >> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my >> >> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in >> >> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking >> >> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic >> >> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he >> >> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also >> >> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >> >> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. >> >> >> >> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >> >> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >> >> everything read to him by readers... >> >> >> >> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black >> >> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene >> >>from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry >> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The >> >> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >> >> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >> >> >> >> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on >> >> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means >> >> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) >> >> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Carrie Gilmer, President >> >> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >> >> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >> >> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original >> >> Message----- >> >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> >> Of J.J. Meddaugh >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday >> >> Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >> >> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >> >> Personally, I found the skit funny. >> >> >> >> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >> >> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >> >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday >> >> Night Live Segment >> >> >> >> >> >>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. >>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >>> all of >> that. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>> As >>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>> show. >>> Best, >>> Joe Orozco >>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>> humanity."--James M. >>> Barrie >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>> Joseph >>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>> NY Times: >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>> / >>>> 881501/ >>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>> that does a real time search: >>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>> Best, >>>> Mika >>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>> Facebook: >>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>> Courtney >>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>> any reason. >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>> his >> blindness. >> >>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>> ### >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>> l >>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>> % >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>> m >>>>> ail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> >>> ronto.ca >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >>> com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >> >> l.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >> >> l.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com From spangler.robert at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 17:56:37 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 12:56:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on SaturdayNight Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494D31D5.40601@gmail.com> I certainly agree with that statement. I would rather be teased than coddled and treated like I always need help. Everyone else is teased - why shouldn't we be? So long as it isn't excessive and doesn't hold us back from success it's just like anyone else. I don't really feel that the SNL skit will hold us back. If anything, the NFB should agree with it and express its disatisfaction with how Gov. Paterson tries to cover up his blindness by not being independent. I would like to run for governor or some type of high position some day but I will use my cane and be prepared without a lot of assistance from others. I am proud to be blind and am very happy with the tasks that I am able to accomplish without sighted intervention, which includes pretty much everything. Thanks, Robby Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > I do think there is a fundamental difference between the SNL sketch > and the Blindness movie. In the Blindness movie, blindness is used as > a means of depicting "the end of the world" or "the collapse of > humanity". The intent of the film is to shock, frighten, and disgust > viewers and so whether or not viewers actually believe that the > depiction of the blind is realistic, they will tend to experience > negative emotions while watching the blind characters. The SNL sketch, > on the other hand, is designed to make people laugh. Not only is humor > at the expense of minorities commonly accepted in our culture, so > people probably won't interpret these portrayals as being realistic, > but also when people watch the sketch they are in a happy mood and so > won't associate blindness with fear and disgust. > > That said, I'm not thrilled about the way Gov. Paterson was portrayed > and I'm glad the NFB made a statement, but I don't think we should be > expending as much energy on this as we did with the Blindness film. I > also agree with the view that by using blindness as a characteristic > to spoof, we are being regarded as part of the mainstream. After all > many of us say we'd rather be teased like everyone else than treated > with extra kindness and compliments. Perhaps this is really a gesture > of inclusion. > > Arielle > > On 12/16/08, Linda Stover wrote: >> Jo, >> >> I couldn't agree more with your remarks. We are constantly demanding >> to be treated as equal citizens; in this instance, our demand has been >> met. We are considered equal enough to be paridyed, taking it in the >> spirit of gest and humor, not a serious attack on the blind >> population. >> >> I also agree with you about the NFB's publicity quota; I think we all >> know the fairytale of the little boy who cried wolf. I'm afraid that >> if we as an organization continue to be this sensitive about very >> minor things, no one will give our words due consideration when a >> serious matter of discrimination does arise. >> Courtney >> >> On 12/15/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: >>> I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was coming up >>> on >>> CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy that the >>> NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Beth" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on >>> SaturdayNight Live Segment >>> >>> >>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>> reason. >>> Beth >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> >>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind Americans >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans­blind >>>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > From spangler.robert at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 18:00:26 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:00:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Saturday Night Live skit In-Reply-To: <6b81d4d60812152343k773fc7f9l39e680d5e3518efc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b81d4d60812152343k773fc7f9l39e680d5e3518efc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494D32BA.9010006@gmail.com> It is true that we are seen this way by the general public but the only thing that we can do, individually, is be as independent as we can be and show those around us that we are not how they see us. that is truly all we can do. We can't go whining over issues like this skit and trying to tell people that they can't perform such acts because then we come off as whiney and bitchy about everything. People will dislike us even more. So just let it go and move on, people. Jedi wrote: > Hey all. > > It's been interesting reading the back and forth regarding the recent SNL skit. > > Personally, I'm glad the National Center staff spoke up. > > When I first saw the SNL skit, I had a hard time understanding what > was so frustrating about it. Then, I read a comment made by a sighted > person who saw the skit and said that the fake Paterson was constantly > groping for things, disoriented, shifty in body movements as the > classical stereotype of blindness suggests, and he was squinting an > awful lot. Add these subtle signs to the upside down graph, the > comment made about blind/disabled people being off and therefore > appropriate for government, and the fact that, at the end of the skit, > blindness was clearly named as one reason why Paterson is (but > shouldn't be appropriate for the Senate seat, and you have something > not only frustrating, but downright damning. Can you imagine what > riots would insue if they'd made fun of Paterson's racial make-up? > It's one thing to make fun of a politician for whatever she or he > might have done in the past (which I find rude anyway), but the whole > way blindness was portrayed was a cheap shot and totally unnecessary > to the political commentary about the various shananigans politicians > get up to from time to time (I.E. sex scandals and drug abuse). > > I think National's response to "Blindness" can be similarly explained. > The fact that blindness was used as a metaphor for ignorance was the > least of National's issues with the film. It's a tired metaphor in my > opinion; More than that, "Blindness" showed the blind as disgusting > and helpless, and it paired sight with civility and dignity. That's a > lot more problematic than just a stupid metaphor, don't you think? > > I think the real issue here is that both cases, the SNL skit and > "Blindness," show hidden attitudes about the blind held by the general > public. Here's what I gather from both presentations (which I have > viewed): the blind are not only unfit for government, but we're > disgusting people who lay waste to everything we touch; we are > incapable of guiding ourselves let alone caring for our personal > needs; we are just a little off along with the rest of the disabled > community. If you think about it, the only thing that makes > "blindness" work as a modern parable and the sNL skit work as comedy > is the fact that folks view some truth in the images portrayed. If the > SNL skit and the "Blindness" film don't get you frustrated, that > should. > > I just want to point out one more thing before I go. Blindness has > captured the imagination of the public for a long time, and it's been > used in plays and popular literature (including film and music) since > classical antiquity. Remember Dr. Jernigan's analysis of blindness in > literture? I saw a lot of similarities between these modern depictions > of blindness and those done in the middle ages. And while i'm sure no > direct harm toward blind people was ever meant on the part of the > artistic public, it still frustrates me all the same. > From spangler.robert at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 18:02:02 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:02:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0812160832m4d215c55if0874df5d10efc21@mail.gmail.com> References: <4383d01d0812151220q21222967u58dd50e0be2b0323@mail.gmail.com> <00f101c95f40$2dbb3900$534aa962@Jessica> <7949e5e20812152214h616e15e9rc73e3f2f8a121317@mail.gmail.com> <0FA686AE-85E7-4AAB-9A9A-DA44C7133805@gmail.com> <4383d01d0812160832m4d215c55if0874df5d10efc21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494D331A.2060503@gmail.com> Then dont' wobble your head. Beth wrote: > You're right, but I'd rather not be made fun of for my mild head > wobbling and my blindness. I'd rather be the one makig fun of the > others. > Beth > > On 12/16/08, Corbb O'Connor wrote: >> On a lighter side, did anybody else notice that the press release did >> not "condemn and deplore" the actions? Note that the leadership is >> only "disappointed" with the sketch. I'm glad that our press releases >> and organizational resolutions have gotten over that...at least for >> now...:grin: >> >> Corbb >> >> >> On Dec 16, 2008, at 8:27 AM, Sarah Jevnikar wrote: >> >> I'm sorry to post a second time on the same topic, but here is my issue: >> we're not being made fun of on the same level as the sighted people on >> shows >> like this. If stumbling around was something Gov Paterson actually >> did, then >> that makes sense to use that as a trademark to make him instantly >> recognizable on comedic shows like SNL. But since he doesn't, why use >> it? If >> he squints, sure, use that too if you want, but surely he wouldn't >> hold up a >> piece of paper upside down unless he's proved himself to be incompetent >> enough to do that whether he could see properly or not. So blast blind >> people identically as you would the sighted, but don't make their >> blindness >> part of the sketch as something that could detract from their >> competency, >> unless they have clearly demonstrated that it does. >> Thank you for reading this. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Linda Stover >> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:14 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on >> SaturdayNight Live Segment >> >> Jo, >> >> I couldn't agree more with your remarks. We are constantly demanding >> to be treated as equal citizens; in this instance, our demand has been >> met. We are considered equal enough to be paridyed, taking it in the >> spirit of gest and humor, not a serious attack on the blind >> population. >> >> I also agree with you about the NFB's publicity quota; I think we all >> know the fairytale of the little boy who cried wolf. I'm afraid that >> if we as an organization continue to be this sensitive about very >> minor things, no one will give our words due consideration when a >> serious matter of discrimination does arise. >> Courtney >> >> On 12/15/08, Jessica Kostiw wrote: >>> I first heard of this a few minutes ago when my Mom saw it was >>> coming up >> on >>> CNN. It was clearly making fun of blindness and I am very happy >>> that the >>> NFB has taken a stand, and so quickly. Disgusting! >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Beth" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:20 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on >>> SaturdayNight Live Segment >>> >>> >>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to be >>> Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for any >>> reason. >>> Beth >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CONTACT: >>>> >>>> Chris Danielsen >>>> >>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>> >>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>> >>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>> Americans >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris >>>> Danielsen, spokesman for the National Federation >>>> of the Blind, said: "The biggest problem faced by >>>> blind people is not blindness itself, but the >>>> stereotypes held by the general public about >>>> blindness and blind people. The idea that blind >>>> people are incapable of the simplest tasks and >>>> are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes >>>> to an unemployment rate among blind people that >>>> stubbornly remains at 70 percent. That is why >>>> the National Federation of the Blind is >>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to >>>> portray Governor Paterson in a comedy routine >>>> that focused almost exclusively on his >>>> blindness. Attacking the Governor because he is >>>> blind is an attack on all blind Americans-blind >>>> children, blind adults, blind seniors, and newly >>>> blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>>> Afghanistan. The National Federation of the >>>> Blind urges the producers of Saturday Night Live >>>> to consider the serious negative impact that >>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind >>>> people before continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ### >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm >> ail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gm >> ail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail >> . >> com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > From spangler.robert at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 18:08:00 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 13:08:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494D3480.1070101@gmail.com> Oh but that's the same with all minority groups. Use a certain word in public (won't say it here - you know what I'm talking about) and you better run for cover. I personally encourage sighted people to call me names and pick fun at me, again so long as it isn't too excessive. My friends, blind or sighted, are fully entitled to call me "that blind bastard" whenever they wish. Joe Orozco wrote: > Carrie, > > Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told > they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, > chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of > blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization > growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the > achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or > not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to > behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person > as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of > the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be > more about socializing than it would be about advocating. > > I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked > reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is > sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the > more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? > > I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South > Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet > other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the > blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have > something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt > to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's > inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less > than perfect. > > Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual > acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, > we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow > I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other > blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, > blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the > sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? > > I just don't get it... > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Carrie Gilmer > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > > I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at > the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few > days. > The things I am considering are... > It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a > dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person > he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my > understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in > large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking > blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic > that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he > has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also > seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and > stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. > > So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in > non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have > everything read to him by readers... > > I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black > man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene > from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry > would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The > reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and > bumbling--lack of proper training does. > > It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on > the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means > so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) > and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the > National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home > Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original > Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of J.J. Meddaugh > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind > characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. > Personally, I found the skit funny. > > J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com > A premier licensed Code Factory distributor > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Jevnikar" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday > Night Live Segment > > >> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. >> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without all of > that. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday Night Live Segment >> >> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >> As >> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >> show. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >> humanity."--James M. >> Barrie >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >> onSaturday Night Live Segment >> >> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >> >> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>> >>> NY Times: >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>> >>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>> / >>> 881501/ >>> >>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>> that does a real time search: >>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>> >>> Best, >>> Mika >>> Twitter Micro blog: >>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>> Facebook: >>> http://profile.to/mika >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>> Courtney >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>> any reason. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>> >>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>> >>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>> >>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>> Americans >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on his > blindness. >>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ### >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>> l >>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>> % >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>> m >>>> ail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>> % >>> 40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >> ronto.ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >> com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 20:07:34 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:07:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] O/T Christmas Cheer Message-ID: <34F91F6683B84D44B67BE38855850A4E@MonkeyPaw> Hey guys, I know the past week may have been a little tense given the back and forth over the SNL issue. My good friend Daphne Mitchell, president of LABS, understands my fascination with music and sent along notice of a rendition of one of the songs from The Lion King, only the best movie ever produced by Disney. Anyway, I also found their version of the 12 Days of Christmas, and it is fantastic. Check it out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fe11OlMiz8 The group is called No Straight Chaser. Show your support and buy their album if you like it. Hope you enjoy, and have yourselves a crazy little Christmas. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 23:43:23 2008 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 18:43:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] O/T Christmas Cheer In-Reply-To: <34F91F6683B84D44B67BE38855850A4E@MonkeyPaw> References: <34F91F6683B84D44B67BE38855850A4E@MonkeyPaw> Message-ID: <4383d01d0812201543h37c6b199hcfd418f9ceeb8e4a@mail.gmail.com> Awesome, Joe. I liked that rendition of the Twelve Days. I've heard the lyrics change, but I've never ever heard the music changed and the carols interwoven like that. This might be good for the music listserv. Beth On 12/20/08, Joe Orozco wrote: > Hey guys, > > I know the past week may have been a little tense given the back and forth > over the SNL issue. My good friend Daphne Mitchell, president of LABS, > understands my fascination with music and sent along notice of a rendition > of one of the songs from The Lion King, only the best movie ever produced by > Disney. Anyway, I also found their version of the 12 Days of Christmas, and > it is fantastic. Check it out here: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fe11OlMiz8 > > The group is called No Straight Chaser. Show your support and buy their > album if you like it. Hope you enjoy, and have yourselves a crazy little > Christmas. > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. > Barrie > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From brsmith2424 at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 00:56:27 2008 From: brsmith2424 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:56:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: Robert, ": He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor Paterson is the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and Hofstra University School of Law. Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, I'm not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of him? -Brice On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: > Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making fun of > Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. > He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. > > > bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi Carrie, >> >> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I will not >> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows that >> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and life >> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not choose our >> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents lacked the >> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher showed me >> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My parents did >> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, etc. >> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn >> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child will >> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do create >> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >> >> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see it? >> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be forgotten. >> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is made fun >> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the clip. But >> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change and >> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than being >> defensive about media clips. >> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked up by >> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> Dear Joe, >>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never said I >>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " there >>> is >>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough go >>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be theirs. >>> My >>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide variety >>> of >>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>> decades >>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>> over-all >>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the >>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and >>> what >>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally back >>> and >>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as best >>> they >>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general never had >>> much >>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep belief >>> it >>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>> opportunity >>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do achieve >>> great things for themselves. >>> >>> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity are >>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are >>> equal >>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or >>> levels >>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to come back. I >>> am >>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there are >>> more >>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your earlier >>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that have >>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>> opportunity. >>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do not >>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not even >>> be >>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am >>> also >>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who can >>> rise >>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>> anything >>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>> intervention. >>> >>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly can >>> not >>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>> blindness >>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and a >>> lack >>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that generally >>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or circumstances do >>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are not >>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in many >>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even in >>> one >>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that >>> happens >>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there are >>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of them >>> and >>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>> themselves. >>> >>> >>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall or >>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep faith in >>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>> challenges >>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is not >>> so >>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a lot >>> of >>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in many >>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally changing >>> for >>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>> allowed--meaning >>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the other >>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means to >>> be >>> blind. >>> >>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>> misconceptions >>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of access, >>> etc. >>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a group >>> hard >>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us to >>> come >>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped give >>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to the >>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not >>> exclude >>> the other. >>> >>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >>> philosophy class with you. >>> >>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>> >>> >>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Joe Orozco >>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> Carrie, >>> >>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too lofty. >>> A >>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind relative's >>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind >>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may very >>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people >>> to >>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they >>> should feel so inclined. >>> >>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a >>> goal, >>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, the >>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if >>> that >>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person >>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to >>> achieve it in the first place. >>> >>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, >>> but >>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It has >>> never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. >>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help fuel >>> the >>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee the >>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their own >>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your own >>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because >>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may >>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would >>> have >>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>> >>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my arguments >>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle of >>> a >>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United States >>> may >>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities >>> enjoyed >>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the >>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too far >>> in >>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>> privilege >>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>> >>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to work >>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking >>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>> >>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because >>> they >>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim >>> of >>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>> >>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind >>> people >>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it >>> your >>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>> circumstances? >>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on >>> the >>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the >>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human >>> nature, >>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a person's >>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane >>> crash. >>> >>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should >>> have >>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but >>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what >>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue >>> that >>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance of >>> one >>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core >>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be >>> good, >>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that >>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would >>> venture >>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means of >>> articulating the same point. >>> >>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of >>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are >>> not >>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these limitations. >>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person held >>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>> hypothesis >>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? >>> To >>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the environment >>> to >>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may >>> sit >>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>> >>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a >>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, >>> that >>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>> defensive >>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed >>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so delicate >>> as >>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the segment >>> at >>> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the >>> show's >>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment >>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or >>> not >>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in the >>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using this >>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques would >>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it >>> your >>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because >>> blind >>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >>> experience? >>> >>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use of >>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could >>> take >>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. If >>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for now >>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>> >>> Joe Orozco >>> >>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >>> M. >>> Barrie >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have >>> found >>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. >>> >>> >>> >>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal >>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you >>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and >>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the >>> choices >>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their >>> view >>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>> determination >>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job >>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished >>> despite >>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality >>> I >>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think >>> they >>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn >>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We >>> have >>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>> fantasy >>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>> becomes a >>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always >>> free >>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>> choosing. I >>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>> responsible >>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and >>> white >>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they >>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now powerless >>> can't be empowered. >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he >>> did. >>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to >>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>> >>> >>> >>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am >>> full >>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before >>> in >>> history. >>> >>> >>> >>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people >>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes >>> many >>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of >>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you >>> think >>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are >>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born >>> of >>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for >>> whom >>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind >>> people >>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely >>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind >>> black >>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I >>> used >>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for >>> blind people. >>> >>> >>> >>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its >>> thoughts >>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not >>> my >>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>> ability, >>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said >>> we >>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can >>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential >>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who >>> just >>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or >>> get >>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>> available >>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need >>> our >>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy >>> way >>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a >>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem >>> to >>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person >>> around. >>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to >>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to >>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who >>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some >>> things >>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people >>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability >>> of >>> their eyeballs. >>> >>> >>> >>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>> misunderstanding >>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't >>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something >>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed >>> along >>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we >>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To >>> me >>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways >>> we >>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of >>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead >>> to >>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives >>> them >>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>> creative >>> and bright. >>> >>> >>> >>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself >>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and >>> the >>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it >>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I >>> think >>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is >>> the >>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were >>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the >>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and >>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole >>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they >>> pulled >>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how >>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a >>> little? >>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how >>> much >>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not >>> look >>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I >>> think >>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the >>> person >>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a >>> cane >>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a >>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would >>> not >>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind >>> people >>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do >>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because >>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind >>> justice >>> super blind character. >>> >>> >>> >>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek >>> when >>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the >>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>> creative >>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of >>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and >>> do >>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the >>> way >>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. >>> It >>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the >>> truth >>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are >>> really >>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand >>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or >>> others >>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in >>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness >>> at >>> all. >>> >>> >>> >>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the >>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the >>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people >>> who >>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind >>> people >>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children >>> would >>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are >>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind >>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and >>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption >>> they >>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such >>> a >>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple >>> and >>> all on the blind as all that. >>> >>> >>> >>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>> terrible >>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the >>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about >>> it..." >>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray >>> blind >>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. >>> Use our strength how? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>> >>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>> >>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>> >>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>> >>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>> >>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>> >>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Joe Orozco >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>> >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> Carrie, >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their >>> own >>> >>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless >>> you >>> >>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme >>> >>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>> general. >>> >>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>> expectation. >>> >>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic >>> >>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, >>> the >>> >>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow >>> >>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking >>> for >>> >>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that >>> which >>> >>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are >>> >>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you >>> choose >>> >>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" >>> >>> rather than "reality?" >>> >>> >>> >>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but >>> then, >>> >>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >>> >>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>> determination >>> >>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people >>> >>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and >>> >>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>> >>> >>> >>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are >>> >>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>> allowed >>> >>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may >>> be >>> >>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never >>> been >>> >>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. >>> >>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own >>> set >>> >>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >>> >>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the >>> apple >>> >>> and the orange. >>> >>> >>> >>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. >>> >>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to >>> recall >>> >>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >>> >>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People >>> know >>> >>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their >>> whole >>> >>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>> Hispanic >>> >>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the >>> party >>> >>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the >>> >>> party in the first place. >>> >>> >>> >>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? >>> Not >>> >>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally >>> >>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough >>> >>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >>> >>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are >>> enough >>> >>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>> looking >>> >>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend >>> >>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted >>> >>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that >>> >>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black >>> >>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. >>> >>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed >>> >>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh >>> as >>> >>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may >>> be >>> >>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>> >>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >>> >>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways >>> we >>> >>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic >>> >>> existence. >>> >>> >>> >>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there >>> >>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to >>> learn >>> >>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I >>> >>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career >>> >>> aspirations. >>> >>> >>> >>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has >>> to >>> >>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet >>> >>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never >>> mind >>> >>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had >>> it >>> >>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all >>> >>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>> training, >>> >>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a >>> >>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind >>> >>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were >>> in >>> >>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few >>> days, >>> >>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things >>> being >>> >>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of >>> the >>> >>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will >>> not >>> >>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>> release. >>> >>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>> >>> >>> >>> Joe Orozco >>> >>> >>> >>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >>> M. >>> >>> Barrie >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> >>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>> >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear Joe, >>> >>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal >>> >>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that >>> is >>> >>> exactly what you meant. >>> >>> >>> >>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once >>> they >>> >>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not >>> anywhere >>> >>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>> >>> >>> >>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>> >>> >>> >>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew >>> up >>> >>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up >>> >>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel >>> >>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) >>> to >>> >>> become a good reader. >>> >>> >>> >>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. >>> Black >>> >>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often >>> cut >>> >>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order >>> to >>> >>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was >>> >>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came >>> to >>> >>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>> >>> >>> >>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving >>> >>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it >>> >>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in >>> >>> blacks? >>> >>> >>> >>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, >>> to >>> >>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and >>> today >>> >>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to >>> >>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the >>> >>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >>> >>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >>> >>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>> >>> >>> >>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>> acceptable--granted >>> >>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is >>> >>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it >>> >>> profane? We do place limits. >>> >>> >>> >>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep >>> sense >>> >>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a >>> name >>> >>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>> nigger. >>> >>> >>> >>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you >>> say >>> >>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>> >>> >>> >>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the >>> >>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial >>> of >>> >>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that >>> joke >>> >>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with >>> >>> something new, and is based in reality? >>> >>> >>> >>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>> stretching >>> >>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when >>> >>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does >>> not >>> >>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. >>> >>> >>> >>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like >>> see >>> >>> through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you >>> are >>> >>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't >>> do >>> >>> justice either in my opinion. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>> >>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>> >>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>> -----Original >>> >>> Message----- >>> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> >>> Of Joe Orozco >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>> >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> Carrie, >>> >>> >>> >>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told >>> >>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>> encouragement, >>> >>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number >>> of >>> >>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>> socialization >>> >>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >>> >>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether >>> or >>> >>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to >>> >>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind >>> person >>> >>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons >>> of >>> >>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be >>> >>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked >>> >>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is >>> >>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that >>> the >>> >>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet >>> South >>> >>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet >>> >>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time >>> the >>> >>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have >>> >>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>> attempt >>> >>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's >>> >>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be >>> less >>> >>> than perfect. >>> >>> >>> >>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual >>> >>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just >>> human, >>> >>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>> Somehow >>> >>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at >>> other >>> >>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, >>> >>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow >>> the >>> >>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>> >>> >>> >>> I just don't get it... >>> >>> >>> >>> Joe Orozco >>> >>> >>> >>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >>> M. >>> >>> Barrie >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> >>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>> >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look >>> at >>> >>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next >>> few >>> >>> days. >>> >>> The things I am considering are... >>> >>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or >>> a >>> >>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted >>> person >>> >>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is >>> my >>> >>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was >>> in >>> >>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking >>> >>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic >>> >>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as >>> he >>> >>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also >>> >>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>> >>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. >>> >>> >>> >>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>> >>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >>> >>> everything read to him by readers... >>> >>> >>> >>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black >>> >>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating >>> scene >>> >>>from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public >>> outcry >>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- >>> The >>> >>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>> >>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>> >>> >>> >>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on >>> >>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal >>> means >>> >>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>> portrayal) >>> >>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>> >>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>> >>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>> >>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>> -----Original >>> >>> Message----- >>> >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> >>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday >>> >>> Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>> >>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>> >>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>> >>> >>> >>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>> >>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>> >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>> onSaturday >>> >>> Night Live Segment >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful >>>> too. >>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >>>> all of >>> that. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>> As >>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>> show. >>>> Best, >>>> Joe Orozco >>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>> humanity."--James M. >>>> Barrie >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>> Joseph >>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>> NY Times: >>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>> / >>>>> 881501/ >>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Mika >>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>> Facebook: >>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>> Courtney >>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>>> his >>> blindness. >>> >>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>> % >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>> m >>>>>> ail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>> % >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >>> >>>> ronto.ca >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >>>> com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>> >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 21 10:30:17 2008 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Dave Wright) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 04:30:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Holiday Sales Message-ID: <013901c96357$240e6ec0$80f110ac@david6a79a76fb> Good morning all, With the holidays just around the corner, I wanted to take a moment to let everyone in on a little AT sale. After viewing the items below, please feel free to calling the following number or email me with any questions. Phone: 651-636-5184 X3 Used Nokia E61 excellent condition with full MobileSpeak license $399 plus $20 shipping Used HP Ipaq 6915 Mobile Messenger with full MobileSpeak Pocket and Mobile Geo licenses $995. Plus $20 shipping Used GW Micro VoiceSense in perfect condition, with all accessories and GW Sense Navigation GPS $1999 plus $25 shipping Used Clarity Deskmate Plus Excellent condition only used as demo regularly $3195 will sell for $1799 plus $45 shipping; Life time manufacturer warranty on the camera Used Clarity Deskmate Excellent condition only used as demo regularly $2795 will sell for $1199 plus $45 shipping; Life time manufacturer warranty on the camera Used Enhanced Vision Systems Nemo portable hand held video magnifier like new purchased for demo purposes and was only shown at one exhibit; regularly $799 will take $400 plus $20 shipping. Used Index Basic D Double sided Braille Embosser with the embosser head replaced warranty as new. Regularly $3295 will take $1499 plus $75 shipping Used Braille Star 40 USB about 5 years old, rarely used, excellent working condition. Sells new for $5995 only asking $1195 including shipping Again, I'm more than happy to answer any questions, so please don't hesitate to give me a shout. Best Regards: David Wright Email: dwrigh6 at gmail.com Mobile: (512)203-2474 WebPage: http://www.knfbreader.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 17:52:38 2008 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 11:52:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Rock Around The Christmas Tree With The Djd Invasion Christmas Special Tonight Message-ID: <29AD06C15BB34D08ACF59E72EDA83361@DavidsDataPortal> Hi To All and a happy holiday! Please read this entire notice as it contains information you'll need to participate in tonight's online Christmas party! You have been invited to attend tonight's annual Christmas party presented by The Djd Invasion internet radio show and site, and hosted by Djd and friends!!! The fun begins tonight at 7 PM central (8 PM eastern, 6 mountain and 5 pacific). This annual Christmas party, which has become a Djd Invasion Christmas tradition will feature some great comedy holiday classics to the traditional Christmas classics you've come to know and love and some more modern tunes thrown in. During tonight's show, you can feel free to Contact me by email or msn messenger at the address djdrocks4ever at gmail.com by aol instant messenger at the address djdrocks by skype when songs are not being played at the address thedjdinvasion by telephone live on the air when songs are not being played and we're on the mic by calling 1-516-874-5071 Or if you'd like to leave a pre recorded message expressing holiday cheer for that special someone or for the listeners call in at 1-775-464-6623 So if you're rapping presents, or just hanging out and want to rock around the Christmas tree with The Djd Invasion, join me then at the times mentioned above for several hours of Christmas cheer and good fun! You can attend tonight's Djd Invasion Christmas party of 2008 by saving this email, and at 7 PM central time (8 eastern, 6 mountain and 5 pacific) use the following link to listen: http://www.thedjdinvasion.com/christmasparty2008.html These holiday shows are fun, and I believe this one will be too, so I hope to see you all there! Best regards, David Dunphy, A.K.A Djd, host of The Djd Invasion http://www.thedjdinvasion.com From dandrews at visi.com Mon Dec 22 01:10:11 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 19:10:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation In-Reply-To: <047201c9615b$d5cbc7f0$0301a8c0@Serene> References: <330895.39158.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <047201c9615b$d5cbc7f0$0301a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: No, I am not -- join the real world -- lots of people are under the influence of one thing or another lots of the time. Dave At 03:59 PM 12/18/2008, you wrote: >Dave, >Your brother was drunk? You've gotta be kidding! > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:05 AM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Walking at Graduation > > >>In high school I got them to show me the way ahead of time. In >>college I decided I would be ok just following the person in front >>of me. It was my brother, so thought I was safe. He started >>college before me, transferred in to where I was, and ended up >>graduating at the same time. Anyway, the problem turned out to be >>that he was drunk at the ceremony, so he, and I turned the wrong way! >> >>Dave >> >>At 08:26 PM 12/10/2008, you wrote: >>>Hello everyone, >>> >>>I wanted to get everyone's advice before I call the registrar's >>>office to make arrangements for a guide. >>> >>>I'm graduating this Saturday, and am not sure what to do about >>>walking across the stage to the person to get my diploma, >>>etc. What have you guys done who have graduated? As I understand >>>it you walk up a ramp, to the person, shake hands with him an who >>>ever else is there, and walk down the other side. Thoughts? >>> >>>P.S. Disability SErvices said they don't have anything set up, >>>but that the student just calls the registrar's office and >>>arranges for a guide if they wish. >>> >>>Harry >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >>> >>> >>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >>>Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1842 - Release Date: >>>12/10/2008 6:53 PM >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net >> > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1856 - Release Date: >12/18/2008 8:06 PM From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Dec 22 01:49:16 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:49:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation Message-ID: <9C999559DA35456FAB39F5BEE63A8B2C@D1GMNL91> Hi all, Its gotten quiet. I hope everyone is home relaxing after finals and getting ready for the holidays. Have any of you taken dance? Private or class? What accomodations did you use? Its usually taught visually by demonstration. If you regularly do a active recreation activity or did growing up, it would be interesting to hear. Growing up, unfortunately, I did not engage in much physical activity for recreation. I guess my parents did not think I could participate in much. I did activities that were not physical like piano lessons. The extent of my activity was my swing set. Now I want to take ballroom dance as a class. Know what? My mother does not think its doable. She does not think they will be able to show me what's happening. I want to try and see what happens. Its at a recreation center and I have every right to participate if i pay money. I don't know how to change their minds. Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated. Ashley Ashley H Bramlett Undergraduate Student Marymount University From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 03:03:34 2008 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:03:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation References: <9C999559DA35456FAB39F5BEE63A8B2C@D1GMNL91> Message-ID: <84E59DC5F94C4AD2BE9D7905D681154A@Dezman> Ashley, I've taken several dance classes in the past including swing, jazz and ladden. I found that for most things it was easy for the instructor to explain verbally the movements as she was showing the class. Also, in types of dance like ballroom you dance with a partner or in groups much of the time so I found it easy to mimic the moves of the person I was dancing with. Perhaps you might make a recording of descriptions of different dance maneuvers and patterns as you learn them. In any event, I found it very fun, a good social activity, good exercise, and definitely doable by a blind person so go for it. HTH Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 7:49 PM Subject: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation > Hi all, > > Its gotten quiet. I hope everyone is home relaxing after finals and > getting ready for the holidays. > > Have any of you taken dance? Private or class? What accomodations did > you use? Its usually taught visually by demonstration. If you regularly > do a active recreation activity or did growing up, it would be > interesting to hear. Growing up, unfortunately, I did not engage in much > physical activity for recreation. I guess my parents did not think I > could participate in much. > I did activities that were not physical like piano lessons. The extent of > my activity was my swing set. > > Now I want to take ballroom dance as a class. Know what? My mother does > not think its doable. She does not think they will be able to show me > what's happening. I want to try and see what happens. Its at a > recreation center and I have every right to participate if i pay money. I > don't know how to change their minds. Any thoughts or experiences are > appreciated. > > Ashley > Ashley H Bramlett > Undergraduate Student > Marymount University > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 04:06:53 2008 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 23:06:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation In-Reply-To: <9C999559DA35456FAB39F5BEE63A8B2C@D1GMNL91> References: <9C999559DA35456FAB39F5BEE63A8B2C@D1GMNL91> Message-ID: <63af025c0812212006u422deb91s818a66727321fc21@mail.gmail.com> I'm not sure if you can change their mind without actually going ahead and doing it. If you were raised in the way you described (and I know you're not alone there), I imagine your parents are fairly set in their ways and their ideas of what blind people can or cannot do. Don't let this stop you from giving it a try though. Once you do it, your mom will come around. When I was a kid, I was reasonably active, but it always took a lot of convincing to get my parents, especially my over-protective dad to let me try out my crazy ideas. One in particular that really got my mom worrying was fencing. I heard about it at a medieval fair we went to and I wanted to try it so so so badly. She didn't think I'd be able to do it safely or without making a fool of myself and wasting money, but she agreed to take me to a free trial class and see what the instructors think after we give it a try. The beginner classes are run, in a way, like dance classes. After we stretch and warm up a bit, everyone lines up in two lines at one end of the gym and our coach stands a few feet in front of us and we run through movement drills. If there's a new move he wants us to learn, he tells us the name, explains when it should be used, shows us how it's done by example and adds it into the drill. During drills, he would sometimes be nonverbal and just do the movements ahead of us and have us copy him, but when I started he found that it actually helped everyone if he said the names of the moves as well ("Advance!" "Retreat!" "Lunge!") Also, when teaching a new move, he would always show it to the group first, then come over to me and show me up close and more physically. When we did blade practice (Fencing is sword fighting, by the way), it had to be one on one for everyone. He'd take us in small groups based on ability and explain what he was going to teach, then work with us one at a time, one after the other on the move. THis was great for me because I could get the one on one I needed (him moving my blade and my arm to physically take me through the motions of a move, slow paced practice sparring with him until I can get it up to speed, etc) without having to be segregated from the group as a whole. We did work out some blade techniques that were specific to my needs since I can't really see where my opponent's blade is, and we did that privately, but that was about it. When we did drills with a partner, I would usually try to pair myself with a more advanced fencer who knows what they're doing and can help me if I need it, at least in the beginning. And when we would actually have bouts (Two fencers would get up to fight and the rest of us would gather around, watch, and analyze so that everyone learns) the coach was very very descriptive and encouraged everyone who took a turn analyzing a move to do the same. This was great for me, and great for everyone else as well because they had to pay more attention than they would otherwise. When it was my turn to fight, I wasn't worried because I had good, well-accomodated training beforehand. Talk to your instructor before classes begin. Recreational dance teachers aren't like school gym teachers. They're usually doing it because they like it and want to do it, and they certainly want your business so it's unlikely she'll just tell you to go find some other hobby. You can work together and try to think of reasonable accomodations that will make it fun and doable. Good luck! On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > Its gotten quiet. I hope everyone is home relaxing after finals and > getting ready for the holidays. > > Have any of you taken dance? Private or class? What accomodations did you > use? Its usually taught visually by demonstration. If you regularly do a > active recreation activity or did growing up, it would be interesting to > hear. Growing up, unfortunately, I did not engage in much physical activity > for recreation. I guess my parents did not think I could participate in > much. > I did activities that were not physical like piano lessons. The extent of > my activity was my swing set. > > Now I want to take ballroom dance as a class. Know what? My mother does > not think its doable. She does not think they will be able to show me > what's happening. I want to try and see what happens. Its at a recreation > center and I have every right to participate if i pay money. I don't know > how to change their minds. Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated. > > Ashley > Ashley H Bramlett > Undergraduate Student > Marymount University > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From phillip.gross at austin.rr.com Mon Dec 22 04:31:07 2008 From: phillip.gross at austin.rr.com (Phillip Gross) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:31:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation In-Reply-To: <63af025c0812212006u422deb91s818a66727321fc21@mail.gmail.com> References: <9C999559DA35456FAB39F5BEE63A8B2C@D1GMNL91> <63af025c0812212006u422deb91s818a66727321fc21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow and people say I'm nuts for riding bulls. Nobody tried to stab me at least lol -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Principato Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation I'm not sure if you can change their mind without actually going ahead and doing it. If you were raised in the way you described (and I know you're not alone there), I imagine your parents are fairly set in their ways and their ideas of what blind people can or cannot do. Don't let this stop you from giving it a try though. Once you do it, your mom will come around. When I was a kid, I was reasonably active, but it always took a lot of convincing to get my parents, especially my over-protective dad to let me try out my crazy ideas. One in particular that really got my mom worrying was fencing. I heard about it at a medieval fair we went to and I wanted to try it so so so badly. She didn't think I'd be able to do it safely or without making a fool of myself and wasting money, but she agreed to take me to a free trial class and see what the instructors think after we give it a try. The beginner classes are run, in a way, like dance classes. After we stretch and warm up a bit, everyone lines up in two lines at one end of the gym and our coach stands a few feet in front of us and we run through movement drills. If there's a new move he wants us to learn, he tells us the name, explains when it should be used, shows us how it's done by example and adds it into the drill. During drills, he would sometimes be nonverbal and just do the movements ahead of us and have us copy him, but when I started he found that it actually helped everyone if he said the names of the moves as well ("Advance!" "Retreat!" "Lunge!") Also, when teaching a new move, he would always show it to the group first, then come over to me and show me up close and more physically. When we did blade practice (Fencing is sword fighting, by the way), it had to be one on one for everyone. He'd take us in small groups based on ability and explain what he was going to teach, then work with us one at a time, one after the other on the move. THis was great for me because I could get the one on one I needed (him moving my blade and my arm to physically take me through the motions of a move, slow paced practice sparring with him until I can get it up to speed, etc) without having to be segregated from the group as a whole. We did work out some blade techniques that were specific to my needs since I can't really see where my opponent's blade is, and we did that privately, but that was about it. When we did drills with a partner, I would usually try to pair myself with a more advanced fencer who knows what they're doing and can help me if I need it, at least in the beginning. And when we would actually have bouts (Two fencers would get up to fight and the rest of us would gather around, watch, and analyze so that everyone learns) the coach was very very descriptive and encouraged everyone who took a turn analyzing a move to do the same. This was great for me, and great for everyone else as well because they had to pay more attention than they would otherwise. When it was my turn to fight, I wasn't worried because I had good, well-accomodated training beforehand. Talk to your instructor before classes begin. Recreational dance teachers aren't like school gym teachers. They're usually doing it because they like it and want to do it, and they certainly want your business so it's unlikely she'll just tell you to go find some other hobby. You can work together and try to think of reasonable accomodations that will make it fun and doable. Good luck! On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi all, > > Its gotten quiet. I hope everyone is home relaxing after finals and > getting ready for the holidays. > > Have any of you taken dance? Private or class? What accomodations did you > use? Its usually taught visually by demonstration. If you regularly do a > active recreation activity or did growing up, it would be interesting to > hear. Growing up, unfortunately, I did not engage in much physical activity > for recreation. I guess my parents did not think I could participate in > much. > I did activities that were not physical like piano lessons. The extent of > my activity was my swing set. > > Now I want to take ballroom dance as a class. Know what? My mother does > not think its doable. She does not think they will be able to show me > what's happening. I want to try and see what happens. Its at a recreation > center and I have every right to participate if i pay money. I don't know > how to change their minds. Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated. > > Ashley > Ashley H Bramlett > Undergraduate Student > Marymount University > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/phillip.gross%40aust in.rr.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 05:01:52 2008 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 00:01:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation In-Reply-To: References: <9C999559DA35456FAB39F5BEE63A8B2C@D1GMNL91> <63af025c0812212006u422deb91s818a66727321fc21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63af025c0812212101i24fa7668o3d69233236b6d242@mail.gmail.com> I'll take swords over bulls any day, thank you. :) On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Phillip Gross wrote: > Wow and people say I'm nuts for riding bulls. Nobody tried to stab me at > least lol > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Jamie Principato > Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 10:07 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dance lessons and recreation > > I'm not sure if you can change their mind without actually going ahead and > doing it. If you were raised in the way you described (and I know you're > not > alone there), I imagine your parents are fairly set in their ways and their > ideas of what blind people can or cannot do. Don't let this stop you from > giving it a try though. Once you do it, your mom will come around. > > When I was a kid, I was reasonably active, but it always took a lot of > convincing to get my parents, especially my over-protective dad to let me > try out my crazy ideas. One in particular that really got my mom worrying > was fencing. I heard about it at a medieval fair we went to and I wanted to > try it so so so badly. She didn't think I'd be able to do it safely or > without making a fool of myself and wasting money, but she agreed to take > me > to a free trial class and see what the instructors think after we give it a > try. The beginner classes are run, in a way, like dance classes. After we > stretch and warm up a bit, everyone lines up in two lines at one end of the > gym and our coach stands a few feet in front of us and we run through > movement drills. If there's a new move he wants us to learn, he tells us > the > name, explains when it should be used, shows us how it's done by example > and > adds it into the drill. During drills, he would sometimes be nonverbal and > just do the movements ahead of us and have us copy him, but when I started > he found that it actually helped everyone if he said the names of the moves > as well ("Advance!" "Retreat!" "Lunge!") Also, when teaching a new move, he > would always show it to the group first, then come over to me and show me > up > close and more physically. When we did blade practice (Fencing is sword > fighting, by the way), it had to be one on one for everyone. He'd take us > in > small groups based on ability and explain what he was going to teach, then > work with us one at a time, one after the other on the move. THis was great > for me because I could get the one on one I needed (him moving my blade and > my arm to physically take me through the motions of a move, slow paced > practice sparring with him until I can get it up to speed, etc) without > having to be segregated from the group as a whole. We did work out some > blade techniques that were specific to my needs since I can't really see > where my opponent's blade is, and we did that privately, but that was about > it. When we did drills with a partner, I would usually try to pair myself > with a more advanced fencer who knows what they're doing and can help me if > I need it, at least in the beginning. And when we would actually have bouts > (Two fencers would get up to fight and the rest of us would gather around, > watch, and analyze so that everyone learns) the coach was very very > descriptive and encouraged everyone who took a turn analyzing a move to do > the same. This was great for me, and great for everyone else as well > because > they had to pay more attention than they would otherwise. When it was my > turn to fight, I wasn't worried because I had good, well-accomodated > training beforehand. > > Talk to your instructor before classes begin. Recreational dance teachers > aren't like school gym teachers. They're usually doing it because they like > it and want to do it, and they certainly want your business so it's > unlikely > she'll just tell you to go find some other hobby. You can work together and > try to think of reasonable accomodations that will make it fun and doable. > Good luck! > > On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Ashley Bramlett > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Its gotten quiet. I hope everyone is home relaxing after finals and > > getting ready for the holidays. > > > > Have any of you taken dance? Private or class? What accomodations did > you > > use? Its usually taught visually by demonstration. If you regularly do > a > > active recreation activity or did growing up, it would be interesting to > > hear. Growing up, unfortunately, I did not engage in much physical > activity > > for recreation. I guess my parents did not think I could participate in > > much. > > I did activities that were not physical like piano lessons. The extent > of > > my activity was my swing set. > > > > Now I want to take ballroom dance as a class. Know what? My mother does > > not think its doable. She does not think they will be able to show me > > what's happening. I want to try and see what happens. Its at a > recreation > > center and I have every right to participate if i pay money. I don't > know > > how to change their minds. Any thoughts or experiences are appreciated. > > > > Ashley > > Ashley H Bramlett > > Undergraduate Student > > Marymount University > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/phillip.gross%40aust > in.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From spangler.robert at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 16:44:15 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 11:44:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor and all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, but if someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be proud of myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide me down the street. Brice Smith wrote: > Robert, > > ": > He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." > > If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor Paterson is > the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first > African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and > Hofstra University School of Law. > > Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the > statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America > is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- > has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, I'm > not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of > personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, > at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the > methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of him? > > -Brice > On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making fun of >> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >> >> >> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Hi Carrie, >>> >>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I will not >>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows that >>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and life >>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not choose our >>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents lacked the >>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher showed me >>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My parents did >>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, etc. >>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn >>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child will >>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do create >>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>> >>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see it? >>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be forgotten. >>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is made fun >>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the clip. But >>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change and >>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than being >>> defensive about media clips. >>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked up by >>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> Dear Joe, >>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never said I >>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " there >>>> is >>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough go >>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be theirs. >>>> My >>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide variety >>>> of >>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>> decades >>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>> over-all >>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the >>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and >>>> what >>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally back >>>> and >>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as best >>>> they >>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general never had >>>> much >>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep belief >>>> it >>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>> opportunity >>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do achieve >>>> great things for themselves. >>>> >>>> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity are >>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are >>>> equal >>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or >>>> levels >>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to come back. I >>>> am >>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there are >>>> more >>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your earlier >>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that have >>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>> opportunity. >>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do not >>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not even >>>> be >>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am >>>> also >>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who can >>>> rise >>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>> anything >>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>> intervention. >>>> >>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly can >>>> not >>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>> blindness >>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and a >>>> lack >>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that generally >>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or circumstances do >>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are not >>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in many >>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even in >>>> one >>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that >>>> happens >>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there are >>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of them >>>> and >>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>> themselves. >>>> >>>> >>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall or >>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep faith in >>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>> challenges >>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is not >>>> so >>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a lot >>>> of >>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in many >>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally changing >>>> for >>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>> allowed--meaning >>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the other >>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means to >>>> be >>>> blind. >>>> >>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>> misconceptions >>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of access, >>>> etc. >>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a group >>>> hard >>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us to >>>> come >>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped give >>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to the >>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not >>>> exclude >>>> the other. >>>> >>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >>>> philosophy class with you. >>>> >>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>> >>>> >>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> Carrie, >>>> >>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too lofty. >>>> A >>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind relative's >>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind >>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may very >>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people >>>> to >>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they >>>> should feel so inclined. >>>> >>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a >>>> goal, >>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, the >>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if >>>> that >>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person >>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to >>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>> >>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, >>>> but >>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It has >>>> never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. >>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help fuel >>>> the >>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee the >>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their own >>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your own >>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because >>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may >>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would >>>> have >>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>> >>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my arguments >>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle of >>>> a >>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United States >>>> may >>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities >>>> enjoyed >>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the >>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too far >>>> in >>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>> privilege >>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>> >>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to work >>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking >>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>> >>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because >>>> they >>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim >>>> of >>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>> >>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind >>>> people >>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it >>>> your >>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>> circumstances? >>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on >>>> the >>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the >>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human >>>> nature, >>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a person's >>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane >>>> crash. >>>> >>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should >>>> have >>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but >>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what >>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue >>>> that >>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance of >>>> one >>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core >>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be >>>> good, >>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that >>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would >>>> venture >>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means of >>>> articulating the same point. >>>> >>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of >>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are >>>> not >>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these limitations. >>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person held >>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>> hypothesis >>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? >>>> To >>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the environment >>>> to >>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may >>>> sit >>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>> >>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a >>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, >>>> that >>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>> defensive >>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed >>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so delicate >>>> as >>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the segment >>>> at >>>> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the >>>> show's >>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment >>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or >>>> not >>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in the >>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using this >>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques would >>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it >>>> your >>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because >>>> blind >>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >>>> experience? >>>> >>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use of >>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could >>>> take >>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. If >>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for now >>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>> >>>> Joe Orozco >>>> >>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >>>> M. >>>> Barrie >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have >>>> found >>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total personal >>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you >>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws and >>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the >>>> choices >>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their >>>> view >>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>> determination >>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job >>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished >>>> despite >>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in reality >>>> I >>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think >>>> they >>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn >>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We >>>> have >>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>> fantasy >>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>> becomes a >>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always >>>> free >>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>> choosing. I >>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>> responsible >>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and >>>> white >>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where they >>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now powerless >>>> can't be empowered. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he >>>> did. >>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment to >>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am >>>> full >>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before >>>> in >>>> history. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind people >>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes >>>> many >>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims of >>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you >>>> think >>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they are >>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination born >>>> of >>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for >>>> whom >>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind >>>> people >>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a completely >>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind >>>> black >>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I >>>> used >>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is for >>>> blind people. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its >>>> thoughts >>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not >>>> my >>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>> ability, >>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who said >>>> we >>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training can >>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that potential >>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who >>>> just >>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above or >>>> get >>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>> available >>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need >>>> our >>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy >>>> way >>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for a >>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem >>>> to >>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person >>>> around. >>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them to >>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned to >>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who >>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some >>>> things >>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind people >>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability >>>> of >>>> their eyeballs. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>> misunderstanding >>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't >>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say something >>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed >>>> along >>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then we >>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To >>>> me >>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and ways >>>> we >>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of >>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead >>>> to >>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives >>>> them >>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>> creative >>>> and bright. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself >>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and >>>> the >>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think it >>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I >>>> think >>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it is >>>> the >>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they were >>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the >>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and >>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the whole >>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they >>>> pulled >>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how >>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a >>>> little? >>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how >>>> much >>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not >>>> look >>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I >>>> think >>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the >>>> person >>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a >>>> cane >>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words a >>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would >>>> not >>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind >>>> people >>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do >>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is because >>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind >>>> justice >>>> super blind character. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek >>>> when >>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the >>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>> creative >>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot of >>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and >>>> do >>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the >>>> way >>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this generation. >>>> It >>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the >>>> truth >>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are >>>> really >>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not understand >>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or >>>> others >>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or in >>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political correctness >>>> at >>>> all. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place the >>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of the >>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind people >>>> who >>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind >>>> people >>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children >>>> would >>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are >>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young blind >>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors and >>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption >>>> they >>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having such >>>> a >>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so simple >>>> and >>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>> terrible >>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the >>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about >>>> it..." >>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray >>>> blind >>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you say. >>>> Use our strength how? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>> >>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>> >>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>> >>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>> >>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>> >>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>> >>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>> >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Carrie, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their >>>> own >>>> >>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless >>>> you >>>> >>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme >>>> >>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>> general. >>>> >>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>> expectation. >>>> >>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic >>>> >>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, >>>> the >>>> >>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow >>>> >>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking >>>> for >>>> >>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that >>>> which >>>> >>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are >>>> >>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you >>>> choose >>>> >>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" >>>> >>>> rather than "reality?" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but >>>> then, >>>> >>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >>>> >>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>> determination >>>> >>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people >>>> >>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and >>>> >>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are >>>> >>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>> allowed >>>> >>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may >>>> be >>>> >>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never >>>> been >>>> >>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. >>>> >>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own >>>> set >>>> >>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >>>> >>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the >>>> apple >>>> >>>> and the orange. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. >>>> >>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to >>>> recall >>>> >>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >>>> >>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People >>>> know >>>> >>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their >>>> whole >>>> >>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>> Hispanic >>>> >>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the >>>> party >>>> >>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the >>>> >>>> party in the first place. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? >>>> Not >>>> >>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally >>>> >>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough >>>> >>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >>>> >>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are >>>> enough >>>> >>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>> looking >>>> >>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend >>>> >>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted >>>> >>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that >>>> >>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black >>>> >>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. >>>> >>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed >>>> >>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh >>>> as >>>> >>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may >>>> be >>>> >>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>> >>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >>>> >>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways >>>> we >>>> >>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic >>>> >>>> existence. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there >>>> >>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to >>>> learn >>>> >>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I >>>> >>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career >>>> >>>> aspirations. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has >>>> to >>>> >>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet >>>> >>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never >>>> mind >>>> >>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had >>>> it >>>> >>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all >>>> >>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>> training, >>>> >>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a >>>> >>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind >>>> >>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were >>>> in >>>> >>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few >>>> days, >>>> >>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things >>>> being >>>> >>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of >>>> the >>>> >>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will >>>> not >>>> >>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>> release. >>>> >>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joe Orozco >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >>>> M. >>>> >>>> Barrie >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> >>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>> >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Joe, >>>> >>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal >>>> >>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that >>>> is >>>> >>>> exactly what you meant. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once >>>> they >>>> >>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not >>>> anywhere >>>> >>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew >>>> up >>>> >>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up >>>> >>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel >>>> >>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) >>>> to >>>> >>>> become a good reader. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. >>>> Black >>>> >>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often >>>> cut >>>> >>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order >>>> to >>>> >>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was >>>> >>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came >>>> to >>>> >>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving >>>> >>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it >>>> >>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in >>>> >>>> blacks? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, >>>> to >>>> >>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and >>>> today >>>> >>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to >>>> >>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the >>>> >>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >>>> >>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >>>> >>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>> acceptable--granted >>>> >>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is >>>> >>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it >>>> >>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep >>>> sense >>>> >>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a >>>> name >>>> >>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>> nigger. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you >>>> say >>>> >>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the >>>> >>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial >>>> of >>>> >>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that >>>> joke >>>> >>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with >>>> >>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>> stretching >>>> >>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when >>>> >>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does >>>> not >>>> >>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like >>>> see >>>> >>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you >>>> are >>>> >>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't >>>> do >>>> >>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>> >>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>>> >>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>> -----Original >>>> >>>> Message----- >>>> >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> >>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>> >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Carrie, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told >>>> >>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>> encouragement, >>>> >>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number >>>> of >>>> >>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>> socialization >>>> >>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >>>> >>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether >>>> or >>>> >>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to >>>> >>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind >>>> person >>>> >>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons >>>> of >>>> >>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be >>>> >>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked >>>> >>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is >>>> >>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that >>>> the >>>> >>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet >>>> South >>>> >>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet >>>> >>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time >>>> the >>>> >>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have >>>> >>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>> attempt >>>> >>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's >>>> >>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be >>>> less >>>> >>>> than perfect. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual >>>> >>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just >>>> human, >>>> >>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>> Somehow >>>> >>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at >>>> other >>>> >>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, >>>> >>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow >>>> the >>>> >>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I just don't get it... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Joe Orozco >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James >>>> M. >>>> >>>> Barrie >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> >>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>> >>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look >>>> at >>>> >>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next >>>> few >>>> >>>> days. >>>> >>>> The things I am considering are... >>>> >>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or >>>> a >>>> >>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted >>>> person >>>> >>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is >>>> my >>>> >>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was >>>> in >>>> >>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking >>>> >>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic >>>> >>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as >>>> he >>>> >>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also >>>> >>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>> >>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>> >>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >>>> >>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black >>>> >>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating >>>> scene >>>> >>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public >>>> outcry >>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- >>>> The >>>> >>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>> >>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on >>>> >>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal >>>> means >>>> >>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>> portrayal) >>>> >>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>> >>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>> >>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>>> >>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>> -----Original >>>> >>>> Message----- >>>> >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> >>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>> >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday >>>> >>>> Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>> >>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>> >>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>> >>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>> >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>> onSaturday >>>> >>>> Night Live Segment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful >>>>> too. >>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >>>>> all of >>>> that. >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>> As >>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>> show. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>> Barrie >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>> Joseph >>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>> NY Times: >>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>> / >>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Mika >>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>>>> his >>>> blindness. >>>> >>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> 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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > From MThorpe at nfb.org Mon Dec 22 18:31:25 2008 From: MThorpe at nfb.org (Thorpe, Mary Jo) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:31:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB BELL Program for 2009 Message-ID: Braille Enrichment for Literacy and Nonvisual Learning 2009 NFB BELL Summer Program The NFB Jernigan Institute is pleased to announce the Braille Enrichment for Literacy and Nonvisual Learning (BELL) program in the summer of 2009. The BELL program is designed to serve as a demonstration program to help provide intensive Braille instruction to low vision children during the summer months. This pilot program will be modeled after the successful 2007 BELL Program led by the NFB of Maryland state affiliate. The NFB Jernigan Institute plans to expand this program into two additional states during the summer of 2009. Selected states will host the Institute's BELL Core team during the two weeks of their program. BELL Core Team members will facilitate a variety of fun, hands-on lessons ranging from group activities to one-on-one instruction to help teach Braille to low vision students ages four to twelve. The program will run Monday through Friday from 8:30 a.m. to 3:00 p.m. Please visit www.nfb.org/nfb/Bell_Program_2009.asp to learn more about this exciting program. Interested in being part of the BELL Core Team? Members of this team will be responsible for creating and implementing the curriculum and various activities for the three BELL program sites. These individuals will work closely with staff members from the NFB Jernigan Institute and the state coordinators from selected states to design lesson plans and projects for the program. Selected team members will be hired as contractual summer staff for the NFB Jernigan Institute beginning in June through the middle of August 2009. Team members will also participate in the NFB Youth Slam. Qualifications We are looking for enthusiastic and highly motivated individuals who are passionate about encouraging the next generation of blind children and eager to promote Braille literacy. Teachers of the Blind/Low Vision and those with experience teaching Braille to children are highly encouraged to apply. However, members do not have to be certified teachers to be effective participants in the NFB BELL program, but they should have experience working with young children. Benefits All aspects of the program, including transportation, room, and board will be provided by the NFB at no expense to selected team members. Team members will also receive a $3,500 stipend as payment for the summer. This program is an extraordinary opportunity for individuals to assist blind children and help to promote our efforts for Braille literacy. How to Apply Please visit the Web site to obtain an application. Applications are due by February 1, 2009. For all other questions about the NFB BELL Program, please contact: Mary Jo Thorpe, Education Programs Specialist, National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, ext. 2407, or by e-mail at mthorpe at nfb.org. From brsmith2424 at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 04:27:17 2008 From: brsmith2424 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:27:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> Message-ID: Robert, So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a difference and is worthless. I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of things: If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives from the people around him might not change. The same goes for Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. But what difference does it make? -Brice On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: > While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor and > all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely > based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, but if > someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what > difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing > my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be proud of > myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted > person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide > me down the street. > > > Brice Smith wrote: >> Robert, >> >> ": >> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >> >> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor Paterson is >> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >> Hofstra University School of Law. >> >> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, I'm >> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of him? >> >> -Brice >> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making fun of >>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>> >>> >>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Hi Carrie, >>>> >>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I will not >>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows that >>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and >>>> life >>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not choose our >>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents lacked the >>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher showed >>>> me >>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My parents did >>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, >>>> etc. >>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn >>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child >>>> will >>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>> create >>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>> >>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see >>>> it? >>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be forgotten. >>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is made >>>> fun >>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the clip. But >>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change and >>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than >>>> being >>>> defensive about media clips. >>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked up by >>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never said >>>>> I >>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>> there >>>>> is >>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough go >>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be theirs. >>>>> My >>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide variety >>>>> of >>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>> decades >>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>> over-all >>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the >>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and >>>>> what >>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally back >>>>> and >>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as best >>>>> they >>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general never had >>>>> much >>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>> belief >>>>> it >>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>> opportunity >>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do achieve >>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>> >>>>> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>> are >>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are >>>>> equal >>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or >>>>> levels >>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to come back. >>>>> I >>>>> am >>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there are >>>>> more >>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your earlier >>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that >>>>> have >>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>> opportunity. >>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do >>>>> not >>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not >>>>> even >>>>> be >>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am >>>>> also >>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who can >>>>> rise >>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>> anything >>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>> intervention. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly can >>>>> not >>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>> blindness >>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and a >>>>> lack >>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that generally >>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or circumstances >>>>> do >>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are >>>>> not >>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in >>>>> many >>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even >>>>> in >>>>> one >>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that >>>>> happens >>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there >>>>> are >>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of >>>>> them >>>>> and >>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>> themselves. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall or >>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep faith >>>>> in >>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>> challenges >>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is >>>>> not >>>>> so >>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a lot >>>>> of >>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in many >>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally changing >>>>> for >>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>> other >>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means to >>>>> be >>>>> blind. >>>>> >>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>> misconceptions >>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of access, >>>>> etc. >>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a group >>>>> hard >>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us to >>>>> come >>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped >>>>> give >>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to >>>>> the >>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not >>>>> exclude >>>>> the other. >>>>> >>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>> >>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> Carrie, >>>>> >>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>> lofty. >>>>> A >>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>> relative's >>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind >>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may >>>>> very >>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people >>>>> to >>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they >>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>> >>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a >>>>> goal, >>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, >>>>> the >>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if >>>>> that >>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person >>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to >>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>> >>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, >>>>> but >>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It >>>>> has >>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. >>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help >>>>> fuel >>>>> the >>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee >>>>> the >>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their >>>>> own >>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your >>>>> own >>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because >>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may >>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would >>>>> have >>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>> >>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>> arguments >>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle >>>>> of >>>>> a >>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>> States >>>>> may >>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities >>>>> enjoyed >>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the >>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too >>>>> far >>>>> in >>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>> privilege >>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>> >>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to >>>>> work >>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking >>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>> >>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because >>>>> they >>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim >>>>> of >>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>> >>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind >>>>> people >>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it >>>>> your >>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>> circumstances? >>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on >>>>> the >>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the >>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human >>>>> nature, >>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>> person's >>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane >>>>> crash. >>>>> >>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should >>>>> have >>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but >>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what >>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue >>>>> that >>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance >>>>> of >>>>> one >>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core >>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be >>>>> good, >>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that >>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would >>>>> venture >>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means >>>>> of >>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>> >>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of >>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are >>>>> not >>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>> limitations. >>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person >>>>> held >>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>> hypothesis >>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? >>>>> To >>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>> environment >>>>> to >>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may >>>>> sit >>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>> >>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a >>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, >>>>> that >>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>> defensive >>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed >>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>> delicate >>>>> as >>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>> segment >>>>> at >>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the >>>>> show's >>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment >>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or >>>>> not >>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in >>>>> the >>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using >>>>> this >>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques >>>>> would >>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it >>>>> your >>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because >>>>> blind >>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >>>>> experience? >>>>> >>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use >>>>> of >>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could >>>>> take >>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. >>>>> If >>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for >>>>> now >>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>> >>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>> >>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>> humanity."--James >>>>> M. >>>>> Barrie >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have >>>>> found >>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>> personal >>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you >>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws >>>>> and >>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the >>>>> choices >>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their >>>>> view >>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>> determination >>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job >>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished >>>>> despite >>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>> reality >>>>> I >>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think >>>>> they >>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn >>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We >>>>> have >>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>> fantasy >>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>> becomes a >>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always >>>>> free >>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>> choosing. I >>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>> responsible >>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and >>>>> white >>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where >>>>> they >>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now powerless >>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he >>>>> did. >>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment >>>>> to >>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am >>>>> full >>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before >>>>> in >>>>> history. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>> people >>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes >>>>> many >>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims >>>>> of >>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you >>>>> think >>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they >>>>> are >>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination >>>>> born >>>>> of >>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for >>>>> whom >>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind >>>>> people >>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>> completely >>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind >>>>> black >>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I >>>>> used >>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is >>>>> for >>>>> blind people. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its >>>>> thoughts >>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not >>>>> my >>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>> ability, >>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who >>>>> said >>>>> we >>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training >>>>> can >>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>> potential >>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who >>>>> just >>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above >>>>> or >>>>> get >>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>> available >>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need >>>>> our >>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy >>>>> way >>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for >>>>> a >>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem >>>>> to >>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person >>>>> around. >>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them >>>>> to >>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned >>>>> to >>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who >>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some >>>>> things >>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>> people >>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability >>>>> of >>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>> misunderstanding >>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't >>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>> something >>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed >>>>> along >>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then >>>>> we >>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To >>>>> me >>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and >>>>> ways >>>>> we >>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of >>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead >>>>> to >>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives >>>>> them >>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>> creative >>>>> and bright. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself >>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and >>>>> the >>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think >>>>> it >>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I >>>>> think >>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it >>>>> is >>>>> the >>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they >>>>> were >>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the >>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and >>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the >>>>> whole >>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they >>>>> pulled >>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how >>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a >>>>> little? >>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how >>>>> much >>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not >>>>> look >>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I >>>>> think >>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the >>>>> person >>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a >>>>> cane >>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words >>>>> a >>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would >>>>> not >>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind >>>>> people >>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do >>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>> because >>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind >>>>> justice >>>>> super blind character. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek >>>>> when >>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the >>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>> creative >>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot >>>>> of >>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and >>>>> do >>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the >>>>> way >>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>> generation. >>>>> It >>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the >>>>> truth >>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are >>>>> really >>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>> understand >>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or >>>>> others >>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or >>>>> in >>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>> correctness >>>>> at >>>>> all. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place >>>>> the >>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of >>>>> the >>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>> people >>>>> who >>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind >>>>> people >>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children >>>>> would >>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are >>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young >>>>> blind >>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors >>>>> and >>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption >>>>> they >>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having >>>>> such >>>>> a >>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>> simple >>>>> and >>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>> terrible >>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use >>>>> the >>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about >>>>> it..." >>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray >>>>> blind >>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you >>>>> say. >>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>> >>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>> >>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>> >>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>> >>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>> >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Carrie, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their >>>>> own >>>>> >>>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless >>>>> you >>>>> >>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme >>>>> >>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>> general. >>>>> >>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>> expectation. >>>>> >>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>> socioeconomic >>>>> >>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>> people, >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>> follow >>>>> >>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>> looking >>>>> for >>>>> >>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that >>>>> which >>>>> >>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There >>>>> are >>>>> >>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you >>>>> choose >>>>> >>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" >>>>> >>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but >>>>> then, >>>>> >>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >>>>> >>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>> determination >>>>> >>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>> people >>>>> >>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and >>>>> >>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are >>>>> >>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>> allowed >>>>> >>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may >>>>> be >>>>> >>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never >>>>> been >>>>> >>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. >>>>> >>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own >>>>> set >>>>> >>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >>>>> >>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the >>>>> apple >>>>> >>>>> and the orange. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>> slaves. >>>>> >>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to >>>>> recall >>>>> >>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >>>>> >>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People >>>>> know >>>>> >>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their >>>>> whole >>>>> >>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>> Hispanic >>>>> >>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the >>>>> party >>>>> >>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the >>>>> >>>>> party in the first place. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? >>>>> Not >>>>> >>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>> generally >>>>> >>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough >>>>> >>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >>>>> >>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are >>>>> enough >>>>> >>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>> looking >>>>> >>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend >>>>> >>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>> targeted >>>>> >>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that >>>>> >>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black >>>>> >>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>> status. >>>>> >>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>> depressed >>>>> >>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh >>>>> as >>>>> >>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may >>>>> be >>>>> >>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>> >>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >>>>> >>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the >>>>> ways >>>>> we >>>>> >>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>> sarcastic >>>>> >>>>> existence. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there >>>>> >>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to >>>>> learn >>>>> >>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I >>>>> >>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career >>>>> >>>>> aspirations. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not >>>>> yet >>>>> >>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never >>>>> mind >>>>> >>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten >>>>> had >>>>> it >>>>> >>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that >>>>> all >>>>> >>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>> training, >>>>> >>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is >>>>> a >>>>> >>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind >>>>> >>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few >>>>> days, >>>>> >>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things >>>>> being >>>>> >>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength >>>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world >>>>> will >>>>> not >>>>> >>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>> release. >>>>> >>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>> humanity."--James >>>>> M. >>>>> >>>>> Barrie >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> >>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>> personal >>>>> >>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once >>>>> they >>>>> >>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not >>>>> anywhere >>>>> >>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew >>>>> up >>>>> >>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew >>>>> up >>>>> >>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel >>>>> >>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> become a good reader. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. >>>>> Black >>>>> >>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often >>>>> cut >>>>> >>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that >>>>> was >>>>> >>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites >>>>> came >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving >>>>> >>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is >>>>> it >>>>> >>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> blacks? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>> asylums, >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and >>>>> today >>>>> >>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >>>>> >>>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >>>>> >>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>> >>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it >>>>> >>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep >>>>> sense >>>>> >>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a >>>>> name >>>>> >>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>> nigger. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names >>>>> you >>>>> say >>>>> >>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the >>>>> >>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>> denial >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that >>>>> joke >>>>> >>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with >>>>> >>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>> stretching >>>>> >>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>> eyesight--when >>>>> >>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does >>>>> not >>>>> >>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like >>>>> see >>>>> >>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you >>>>> are >>>>> >>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't >>>>> do >>>>> >>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>> >>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>>>> >>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>> -----Original >>>>> >>>>> Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> >>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>> >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Carrie, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are >>>>> told >>>>> >>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>> encouragement, >>>>> >>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>> socialization >>>>> >>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >>>>> >>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether >>>>> or >>>>> >>>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to >>>>> >>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind >>>>> person >>>>> >>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons >>>>> of >>>>> >>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would >>>>> be >>>>> >>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked >>>>> >>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>> themselves? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet >>>>> South >>>>> >>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet >>>>> >>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every >>>>> time >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors >>>>> have >>>>> >>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>> attempt >>>>> >>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's >>>>> >>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be >>>>> less >>>>> >>>>> than perfect. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual >>>>> >>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just >>>>> human, >>>>> >>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>> Somehow >>>>> >>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at >>>>> other >>>>> >>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, >>>>> >>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>> somehow >>>>> the >>>>> >>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>> humanity."--James >>>>> M. >>>>> >>>>> Barrie >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> >>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>> >>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look >>>>> at >>>>> >>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the >>>>> next >>>>> few >>>>> >>>>> days. >>>>> >>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>> >>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane >>>>> or >>>>> a >>>>> >>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted >>>>> person >>>>> >>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is >>>>> my >>>>> >>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking >>>>> >>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>> ironic >>>>> >>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way >>>>> as >>>>> he >>>>> >>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also >>>>> >>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>> >>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>> >>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >>>>> >>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical >>>>> black >>>>> >>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating >>>>> scene >>>>> >>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public >>>>> outcry >>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>> reality-- >>>>> The >>>>> >>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>> >>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more >>>>> on >>>>> >>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal >>>>> means >>>>> >>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>> portrayal) >>>>> >>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>> >>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>>>> >>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>> -----Original >>>>> >>>>> Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> >>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>> >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>> onSaturday >>>>> >>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>> >>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>> >>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>> >>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> >>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>> >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>> onSaturday >>>>> >>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful >>>>>> too. >>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have >>>>>> to >>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way >>>>>> of >>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >>>>>> all of >>>>> that. >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>> As >>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>> show. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>> Barrie >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>> Joseph >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>> NY Times: >>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>> / >>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of >>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>>>>> his >>>>> blindness. >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>>>> % >>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at 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>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>> >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>> >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 06:42:46 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:42:46 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> Brice, It never ceases to amaze me how quickly you see through to the heart of the matter. That's a fine talent and gift you've got, and I am always glad to see the use to which you put it. Let us consider a hypothetical situation: I am in Monmouth, Oregon and I wish to attend a conference in Portland, Oregon. For a sighted person, it is an eighty minute drive, but I am blind and have an "Oregon license to not drive. Ever." (That is a story for another email.) How shall I get there? I can hire a driver. I can take travel using three interconnected public transit systems. I can ask someone for a ride. Or, someone may offer me a ride. Robert seems to suggest that I am not independent unless I can get there without reliance on others. That takes away hiring a driver (i.e., letting an employee provide transportation), and public transit (i.e., letting four different people drive different legs of the trip). That's not a bad definition of independence, but it points out the truth rather clearly: None of us, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is independent. Those sighted people who are driving depend on people to manufacture and maintain the cars they drive, after all. Yet Robert is right that I should be able to make the decision to attend without first asking someone else if they're willing or able to provide me with the means to do it. This is self-determination, and I do not believe a healthy level of independence exists in the absence of it. That said, a healthy level of independence seems to also require that once I have reached self-determination, I am comfortable enough with my own ability to find a way to get there that I can give an appropriate answer when a colleague says, "Hey, I'm going to the same conference, and I live just a few blocks away from you. Can I offer you a ride?" That answer might be, "Thanks for offering, but no, I have a couple of errands to run along the way." Or it might be, "Hey, thanks! I appreciate it!" Could I get there otherwise, absolutely I can. Do I need to prove it? To whom, exactly? And why? Governor Patterson has many aides who do things for him that the rest of us do for ourselves because he pays them to. In that he's like any other politician. Politicians frequently pay people to drive for them, do their laundry, clean up their houses, read their mail, and the list goes on. They could do these things, but that would mean less time for being a politician. Some of the things Governor Patterson's aides do are different than what other governors' aides do, but they're no more and no less than the things others have done for them. Could Governor Patterson do these things for himself if he were no longer in office with aides to help him with everything? Possibly he'd have to learn how to do some of them--remember that President Clinton had to learn how to use an ATM after he left office. Maybe the ATMs are more complex for politicians, though. I mean, I use one and it asks me Checking or Savings.. He probably gets asked to choose Hard Money, Soft Money, etc. *grin* If the governor wants to make a decision, do you think he's got to go around and ask people if they can do it for him? I suspect he just makes it, and calls someone to ask them to arrange the details, just as any other executive would. Joseph On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:27:17PM -0500, Brice Smith wrote: >Robert, > >So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do >something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, >If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a >difference and is worthless. > >I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out >philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are >going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this >doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of >things: > >If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any >other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're >going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be >sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to >your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of >helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for >the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If >he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives >from the people around him might not change. The same goes for >Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other >governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly >assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires >to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who >would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly >have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would >want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without >being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. > >But what difference does it make? > >-Brice > >On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor and >> all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely >> based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, but if >> someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what >> difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing >> my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be proud of >> myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted >> person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide >> me down the street. >> >> >> Brice Smith wrote: >>> Robert, >>> >>> ": >>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >>> >>> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor Paterson is >>> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >>> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >>> Hofstra University School of Law. >>> >>> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >>> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >>> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >>> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, I'm >>> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >>> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >>> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >>> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of him? >>> >>> -Brice >>> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making fun of >>>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>>> >>>> >>>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>> Hi Carrie, >>>>> >>>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I will not >>>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows that >>>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and >>>>> life >>>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not choose our >>>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents lacked the >>>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher showed >>>>> me >>>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My parents did >>>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, >>>>> etc. >>>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn >>>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child >>>>> will >>>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>>> create >>>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>>> >>>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see >>>>> it? >>>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be forgotten. >>>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is made >>>>> fun >>>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the clip. But >>>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change and >>>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than >>>>> being >>>>> defensive about media clips. >>>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked up by >>>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never said >>>>>> I >>>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>>> there >>>>>> is >>>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough go >>>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be theirs. >>>>>> My >>>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide variety >>>>>> of >>>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>>> decades >>>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>>> over-all >>>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the >>>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and >>>>>> what >>>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally back >>>>>> and >>>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as best >>>>>> they >>>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general never had >>>>>> much >>>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>>> belief >>>>>> it >>>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>>> opportunity >>>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do achieve >>>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>>> >>>>>> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>>> are >>>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are >>>>>> equal >>>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or >>>>>> levels >>>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to come back. >>>>>> I >>>>>> am >>>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there are >>>>>> more >>>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your earlier >>>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that >>>>>> have >>>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do >>>>>> not >>>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not >>>>>> even >>>>>> be >>>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am >>>>>> also >>>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who can >>>>>> rise >>>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>>> anything >>>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>>> intervention. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly can >>>>>> not >>>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>>> blindness >>>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and a >>>>>> lack >>>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that generally >>>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or circumstances >>>>>> do >>>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are >>>>>> not >>>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in >>>>>> many >>>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even >>>>>> in >>>>>> one >>>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that >>>>>> happens >>>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there >>>>>> are >>>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of >>>>>> them >>>>>> and >>>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>>> themselves. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall or >>>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep faith >>>>>> in >>>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>>> challenges >>>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is >>>>>> not >>>>>> so >>>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a lot >>>>>> of >>>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in many >>>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally changing >>>>>> for >>>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>>> other >>>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means to >>>>>> be >>>>>> blind. >>>>>> >>>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>>> misconceptions >>>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of access, >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a group >>>>>> hard >>>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us to >>>>>> come >>>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped >>>>>> give >>>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to >>>>>> the >>>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not >>>>>> exclude >>>>>> the other. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >>>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>> >>>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>>> lofty. >>>>>> A >>>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>>> relative's >>>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind >>>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may >>>>>> very >>>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want people >>>>>> to >>>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if they >>>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>>> >>>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a >>>>>> goal, >>>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, >>>>>> the >>>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and if >>>>>> that >>>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the person >>>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant to >>>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and disappointments, >>>>>> but >>>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It >>>>>> has >>>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built entirely alone. >>>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >>>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help >>>>>> fuel >>>>>> the >>>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee >>>>>> the >>>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their >>>>>> own >>>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your >>>>>> own >>>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because >>>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may >>>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that would >>>>>> have >>>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>>> arguments >>>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the middle >>>>>> of >>>>>> a >>>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>>> States >>>>>> may >>>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities >>>>>> enjoyed >>>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of the >>>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too >>>>>> far >>>>>> in >>>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>>> privilege >>>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to >>>>>> work >>>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex trafficking >>>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply because >>>>>> they >>>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the victim >>>>>> of >>>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>>> >>>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it >>>>>> your >>>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>>> circumstances? >>>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough on >>>>>> the >>>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder the >>>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human >>>>>> nature, >>>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>>> person's >>>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane >>>>>> crash. >>>>>> >>>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should >>>>>> have >>>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, but >>>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what >>>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue >>>>>> that >>>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance >>>>>> of >>>>>> one >>>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard core >>>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be >>>>>> good, >>>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that >>>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would >>>>>> venture >>>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means >>>>>> of >>>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability of >>>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations are >>>>>> not >>>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>>> limitations. >>>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person >>>>>> held >>>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>>> hypothesis >>>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as responsibility? >>>>>> To >>>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>>> environment >>>>>> to >>>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position may >>>>>> sit >>>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>>> >>>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much a >>>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, >>>>>> that >>>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>>> defensive >>>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an uninformed >>>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>>> delicate >>>>>> as >>>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>>> segment >>>>>> at >>>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the >>>>>> show's >>>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the segment >>>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether or >>>>>> not >>>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in >>>>>> the >>>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using >>>>>> this >>>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques >>>>>> would >>>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is it >>>>>> your >>>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >>>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >>>>>> experience? >>>>>> >>>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better use >>>>>> of >>>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could >>>>>> take >>>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. >>>>>> If >>>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for >>>>>> now >>>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>> >>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>> M. >>>>>> Barrie >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I have >>>>>> found >>>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my hair. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>>> personal >>>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how you >>>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws >>>>>> and >>>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the >>>>>> choices >>>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their >>>>>> view >>>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>>> determination >>>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of job >>>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished >>>>>> despite >>>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >>>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>>> reality >>>>>> I >>>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think >>>>>> they >>>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, inborn >>>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. We >>>>>> have >>>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>>> fantasy >>>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>>> becomes a >>>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally always >>>>>> free >>>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>>> choosing. I >>>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>>> responsible >>>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and >>>>>> white >>>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where >>>>>> they >>>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now powerless >>>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality he >>>>>> did. >>>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of unemployment >>>>>> to >>>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am >>>>>> full >>>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever before >>>>>> in >>>>>> history. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also takes >>>>>> many >>>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, victims >>>>>> of >>>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >>>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If you >>>>>> think >>>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they >>>>>> are >>>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination >>>>>> born >>>>>> of >>>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste for >>>>>> whom >>>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>>> completely >>>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind >>>>>> black >>>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison I >>>>>> used >>>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is >>>>>> for >>>>>> blind people. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its >>>>>> thoughts >>>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is not >>>>>> my >>>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>>> ability, >>>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who >>>>>> said >>>>>> we >>>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training >>>>>> can >>>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>>> potential >>>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >>>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who >>>>>> just >>>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above >>>>>> or >>>>>> get >>>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>>> available >>>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They need >>>>>> our >>>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >>>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived easy >>>>>> way >>>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it for >>>>>> a >>>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or seem >>>>>> to >>>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person >>>>>> around. >>>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them >>>>>> to >>>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned >>>>>> to >>>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who >>>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some >>>>>> things >>>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the workability >>>>>> of >>>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>>> misunderstanding >>>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I don't >>>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >>>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>>> something >>>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed >>>>>> along >>>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) then >>>>>> we >>>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. To >>>>>> me >>>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and >>>>>> ways >>>>>> we >>>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the population of >>>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could lead >>>>>> to >>>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and gives >>>>>> them >>>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>>> creative >>>>>> and bright. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at myself >>>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, and >>>>>> the >>>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't think >>>>>> it >>>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. I >>>>>> think >>>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it >>>>>> is >>>>>> the >>>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they >>>>>> were >>>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the >>>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip and >>>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the >>>>>> whole >>>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they >>>>>> pulled >>>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how >>>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a >>>>>> little? >>>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, how >>>>>> much >>>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to "not >>>>>> look >>>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. I >>>>>> think >>>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the >>>>>> person >>>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a >>>>>> cane >>>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 words >>>>>> a >>>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they would >>>>>> not >>>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people do >>>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>>> because >>>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind >>>>>> justice >>>>>> super blind character. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek >>>>>> when >>>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face the >>>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>>> creative >>>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot >>>>>> of >>>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, and >>>>>> do >>>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on the >>>>>> way >>>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>>> generation. >>>>>> It >>>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the >>>>>> truth >>>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are >>>>>> really >>>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>>> understand >>>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or >>>>>> others >>>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along or >>>>>> in >>>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>>> correctness >>>>>> at >>>>>> all. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place >>>>>> the >>>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >>>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of >>>>>> the >>>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> who >>>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >>>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children >>>>>> would >>>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't are >>>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young >>>>>> blind >>>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors >>>>>> and >>>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little gumption >>>>>> they >>>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having >>>>>> such >>>>>> a >>>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>>> simple >>>>>> and >>>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>> terrible >>>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use >>>>>> the >>>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about >>>>>> it..." >>>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray >>>>>> blind >>>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you >>>>>> say. >>>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>> >>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>> >>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>> >>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>> >>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their >>>>>> own >>>>>> >>>>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless >>>>>> you >>>>>> >>>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme >>>>>> >>>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>>> general. >>>>>> >>>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>>> expectation. >>>>>> >>>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>>> socioeconomic >>>>>> >>>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>>> people, >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>>> follow >>>>>> >>>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>>> looking >>>>>> for >>>>>> >>>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that >>>>>> which >>>>>> >>>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There >>>>>> are >>>>>> >>>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you >>>>>> choose >>>>>> >>>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" >>>>>> >>>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but >>>>>> then, >>>>>> >>>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >>>>>> >>>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>>> determination >>>>>> >>>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>>> people >>>>>> >>>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and >>>>>> >>>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are >>>>>> >>>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>>> allowed >>>>>> >>>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never >>>>>> been >>>>>> >>>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. >>>>>> >>>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own >>>>>> set >>>>>> >>>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >>>>>> >>>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the >>>>>> apple >>>>>> >>>>>> and the orange. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>>> slaves. >>>>>> >>>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to >>>>>> recall >>>>>> >>>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >>>>>> >>>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People >>>>>> know >>>>>> >>>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their >>>>>> whole >>>>>> >>>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>>> Hispanic >>>>>> >>>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the >>>>>> party >>>>>> >>>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the >>>>>> >>>>>> party in the first place. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? >>>>>> Not >>>>>> >>>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>>> generally >>>>>> >>>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough >>>>>> >>>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >>>>>> >>>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are >>>>>> enough >>>>>> >>>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>>> looking >>>>>> >>>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend >>>>>> >>>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>>> targeted >>>>>> >>>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that >>>>>> >>>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black >>>>>> >>>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>>> status. >>>>>> >>>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>>> depressed >>>>>> >>>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>>> >>>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >>>>>> >>>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the >>>>>> ways >>>>>> we >>>>>> >>>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>>> sarcastic >>>>>> >>>>>> existence. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there >>>>>> >>>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to >>>>>> learn >>>>>> >>>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I >>>>>> >>>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career >>>>>> >>>>>> aspirations. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not >>>>>> yet >>>>>> >>>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never >>>>>> mind >>>>>> >>>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten >>>>>> had >>>>>> it >>>>>> >>>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that >>>>>> all >>>>>> >>>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>>> training, >>>>>> >>>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is >>>>>> a >>>>>> >>>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind >>>>>> >>>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few >>>>>> days, >>>>>> >>>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things >>>>>> being >>>>>> >>>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world >>>>>> will >>>>>> not >>>>>> >>>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>>> release. >>>>>> >>>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>> M. >>>>>> >>>>>> Barrie >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> >>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>>> personal >>>>>> >>>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once >>>>>> they >>>>>> >>>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not >>>>>> anywhere >>>>>> >>>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew >>>>>> up >>>>>> >>>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew >>>>>> up >>>>>> >>>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel >>>>>> >>>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> become a good reader. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. >>>>>> Black >>>>>> >>>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often >>>>>> cut >>>>>> >>>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that >>>>>> was >>>>>> >>>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites >>>>>> came >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving >>>>>> >>>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is >>>>>> it >>>>>> >>>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> blacks? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>>> asylums, >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and >>>>>> today >>>>>> >>>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >>>>>> >>>>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >>>>>> >>>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>>> >>>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it >>>>>> >>>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep >>>>>> sense >>>>>> >>>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a >>>>>> name >>>>>> >>>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>>> nigger. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names >>>>>> you >>>>>> say >>>>>> >>>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the >>>>>> >>>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>>> denial >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that >>>>>> joke >>>>>> >>>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with >>>>>> >>>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>>> stretching >>>>>> >>>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>>> eyesight--when >>>>>> >>>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does >>>>>> not >>>>>> >>>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like >>>>>> see >>>>>> >>>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you >>>>>> are >>>>>> >>>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't >>>>>> do >>>>>> >>>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>> >>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>> -----Original >>>>>> >>>>>> Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> >>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are >>>>>> told >>>>>> >>>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>>> encouragement, >>>>>> >>>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>>> socialization >>>>>> >>>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >>>>>> >>>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether >>>>>> or >>>>>> >>>>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to >>>>>> >>>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind >>>>>> person >>>>>> >>>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked >>>>>> >>>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>>> themselves? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet >>>>>> South >>>>>> >>>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet >>>>>> >>>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every >>>>>> time >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>>> attempt >>>>>> >>>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's >>>>>> >>>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be >>>>>> less >>>>>> >>>>>> than perfect. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual >>>>>> >>>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just >>>>>> human, >>>>>> >>>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>>> Somehow >>>>>> >>>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at >>>>>> other >>>>>> >>>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, >>>>>> >>>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>>> somehow >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>> M. >>>>>> >>>>>> Barrie >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> >>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look >>>>>> at >>>>>> >>>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the >>>>>> next >>>>>> few >>>>>> >>>>>> days. >>>>>> >>>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>>> >>>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane >>>>>> or >>>>>> a >>>>>> >>>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted >>>>>> person >>>>>> >>>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is >>>>>> my >>>>>> >>>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was >>>>>> in >>>>>> >>>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking >>>>>> >>>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>>> ironic >>>>>> >>>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way >>>>>> as >>>>>> he >>>>>> >>>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also >>>>>> >>>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>>> >>>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>>> >>>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >>>>>> >>>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical >>>>>> black >>>>>> >>>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating >>>>>> scene >>>>>> >>>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public >>>>>> outcry >>>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>>> reality-- >>>>>> The >>>>>> >>>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>>> >>>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more >>>>>> on >>>>>> >>>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal >>>>>> means >>>>>> >>>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>>> portrayal) >>>>>> >>>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>> >>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>> >>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>> -----Original >>>>>> >>>>>> Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> >>>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>> >>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>>> >>>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>>> >>>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>> >>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful >>>>>>> too. >>>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >>>>>>> all of >>>>>> that. >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >>>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. >>>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >>>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>>> As >>>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind >>>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>>> show. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>>> NY Times: >>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of >>>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>> blindness. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ 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>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 07:17:04 2008 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:17:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <63af025c0812222317m31a0cc9v158adb1ec552cf71@mail.gmail.com> Well said, Joseph. On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 1:42 AM, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Brice, > > It never ceases to amaze me how quickly you see through to the heart of the > matter. That's a fine talent and gift you've got, and I am always glad to > see the use to which you put it. > > Let us consider a hypothetical situation: I am in Monmouth, Oregon and I > wish to attend a conference in Portland, Oregon. For a sighted person, it > is an eighty minute drive, but I am blind and have an "Oregon license to not > drive. Ever." (That is a story for another email.) > > How shall I get there? I can hire a driver. I can take travel using three > interconnected public transit systems. I can ask someone for a ride. Or, > someone may offer me a ride. > > Robert seems to suggest that I am not independent unless I can get there > without reliance on others. That takes away hiring a driver (i.e., letting > an employee provide transportation), and public transit (i.e., letting four > different people drive different legs of the trip). > > That's not a bad definition of independence, but it points out the truth > rather clearly: None of us, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is independent. > Those sighted people who are driving depend on people to manufacture and > maintain the cars they drive, after all. > > Yet Robert is right that I should be able to make the decision to attend > without first asking someone else if they're willing or able to provide me > with the means to do it. This is self-determination, and I do not believe a > healthy level of independence exists in the absence of it. > > That said, a healthy level of independence seems to also require that once > I have reached self-determination, I am comfortable enough with my own > ability to find a way to get there that I can give an appropriate answer > when a colleague says, "Hey, I'm going to the same conference, and I live > just a few blocks away from you. Can I offer you a ride?" That answer > might be, "Thanks for offering, but no, I have a couple of errands to run > along the way." Or it might be, "Hey, thanks! I appreciate it!" > > Could I get there otherwise, absolutely I can. Do I need to prove it? To > whom, exactly? And why? > > Governor Patterson has many aides who do things for him that the rest of us > do for ourselves because he pays them to. In that he's like any other > politician. Politicians frequently pay people to drive for them, do their > laundry, clean up their houses, read their mail, and the list goes on. They > could do these things, but that would mean less time for being a politician. > Some of the things Governor Patterson's aides do are different than what > other governors' aides do, but they're no more and no less than the things > others have done for them. > > Could Governor Patterson do these things for himself if he were no longer > in office with aides to help him with everything? Possibly he'd have to > learn how to do some of them--remember that President Clinton had to learn > how to use an ATM after he left office. Maybe the ATMs are more complex for > politicians, though. I mean, I use one and it asks me Checking or Savings.. > He probably gets asked to choose Hard Money, Soft Money, etc. *grin* > > If the governor wants to make a decision, do you think he's got to go > around and ask people if they can do it for him? I suspect he just makes > it, and calls someone to ask them to arrange the details, just as any other > executive would. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:27:17PM -0500, Brice Smith wrote: > >> Robert, >> >> So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do >> something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, >> If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a >> difference and is worthless. >> >> I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out >> philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are >> going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this >> doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of >> things: >> >> If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any >> other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're >> going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be >> sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to >> your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of >> helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for >> the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If >> he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives >> from the people around him might not change. The same goes for >> Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other >> governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly >> assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires >> to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who >> would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly >> have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would >> want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without >> being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. >> >> But what difference does it make? >> >> -Brice >> >> On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >> >>> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor and >>> all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely >>> based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, but if >>> someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what >>> difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing >>> my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be proud of >>> myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted >>> person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide >>> me down the street. >>> >>> >>> Brice Smith wrote: >>> >>>> Robert, >>>> >>>> ": >>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >>>> >>>> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor Paterson is >>>> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >>>> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >>>> Hofstra University School of Law. >>>> >>>> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >>>> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >>>> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >>>> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, I'm >>>> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >>>> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >>>> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >>>> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of him? >>>> >>>> -Brice >>>> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>> >>>>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making fun of >>>>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Carrie, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I will >>>>>> not >>>>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows >>>>>> that >>>>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and >>>>>> life >>>>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not choose >>>>>> our >>>>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents lacked >>>>>> the >>>>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher showed >>>>>> me >>>>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My parents >>>>>> did >>>>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn >>>>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child >>>>>> will >>>>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>>>> create >>>>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see >>>>>> it? >>>>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be forgotten. >>>>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is made >>>>>> fun >>>>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the clip. >>>>>> But >>>>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change and >>>>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than >>>>>> being >>>>>> defensive about media clips. >>>>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked up >>>>>> by >>>>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I never >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are tough >>>>>>> go >>>>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be >>>>>>> theirs. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide >>>>>>> variety >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>>>> decades >>>>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>>>> over-all >>>>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had the >>>>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, and >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it totally >>>>>>> back >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as >>>>>>> best >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general never >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>>>> belief >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do >>>>>>> achieve >>>>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are >>>>>>> equal >>>>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or >>>>>>> levels >>>>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to come >>>>>>> back. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your >>>>>>> earlier >>>>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not >>>>>>> even >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet I am >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person who >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> rise >>>>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>>>> anything >>>>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person seemingly >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, and >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> lack >>>>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that >>>>>>> generally >>>>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or >>>>>>> circumstances >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people are >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms even >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that >>>>>>> happens >>>>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>>>> themselves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility overall >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep >>>>>>> faith >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>>>> challenges >>>>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say it is >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see a >>>>>>> lot >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally >>>>>>> changing >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it means >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>>>> misconceptions >>>>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of >>>>>>> access, >>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a >>>>>>> group >>>>>>> hard >>>>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for us >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> come >>>>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped >>>>>>> give >>>>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside and to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not >>>>>>> exclude >>>>>>> the other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >>>>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>>>> lofty. >>>>>>> A >>>>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>>>> relative's >>>>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the blind >>>>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain if >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves setting a >>>>>>> goal, >>>>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. Yet, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, and >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really meant >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and >>>>>>> disappointments, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those obstacles. It >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built entirely >>>>>>> alone. >>>>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >>>>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help >>>>>>> fuel >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will guarantee >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By your >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, because >>>>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others may >>>>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>>>> arguments >>>>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the >>>>>>> middle >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>>>> States >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities >>>>>>> enjoyed >>>>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too >>>>>>> far >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex >>>>>>> trafficking >>>>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the >>>>>>> victim >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. Is it >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>>>> circumstances? >>>>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not enough >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather ponder >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human >>>>>>> nature, >>>>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>>>> person's >>>>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane >>>>>>> crash. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I should >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be tough, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of what >>>>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would argue >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the attendance >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this hard >>>>>>> core >>>>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be >>>>>>> good, >>>>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between that >>>>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would >>>>>>> venture >>>>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic means >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the "workability >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's limitations >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person >>>>>>> held >>>>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>>>> hypothesis >>>>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as >>>>>>> responsibility? >>>>>>> To >>>>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>>>> environment >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a position >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> sit >>>>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so much >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. Unfortunately, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>>>> defensive >>>>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an >>>>>>> uninformed >>>>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>>>> delicate >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>>>> segment >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the >>>>>>> show's >>>>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the >>>>>>> segment >>>>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL because >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >>>>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a better >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that could >>>>>>> take >>>>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. >>>>>>> If >>>>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet for >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>> M. >>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> found >>>>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my >>>>>>> hair. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>>>> personal >>>>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then how >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the >>>>>>> choices >>>>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force their >>>>>>> view >>>>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>>>> determination >>>>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind of >>>>>>> job >>>>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished >>>>>>> despite >>>>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >>>>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>>>> reality >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people think >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, >>>>>>> inborn >>>>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible supports. >>>>>>> We >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>>>> fantasy >>>>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>>>> becomes a >>>>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally >>>>>>> always >>>>>>> free >>>>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>>>> choosing. I >>>>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and >>>>>>> white >>>>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now >>>>>>> powerless >>>>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the reality >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> did. >>>>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of >>>>>>> unemployment >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact I am >>>>>>> full >>>>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever >>>>>>> before >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> history. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also >>>>>>> takes >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, >>>>>>> victims >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >>>>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. If >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly because they >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination >>>>>>> born >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a distaste >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> whom >>>>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>>>> completely >>>>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the blind >>>>>>> black >>>>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The comparison >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> used >>>>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as it is >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blind people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its >>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That is >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>>>> ability, >>>>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>>>> potential >>>>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >>>>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people who >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise above >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>>>> available >>>>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. They >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >>>>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived >>>>>>> easy >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use it >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up or >>>>>>> seem >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person >>>>>>> around. >>>>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of them >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never learned >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone who >>>>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the >>>>>>> workability >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>>>> misunderstanding >>>>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >>>>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>>>> something >>>>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed >>>>>>> along >>>>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than with. >>>>>>> To >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and >>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the population >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something could >>>>>>> lead >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and >>>>>>> gives >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>>>> creative >>>>>>> and bright. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at >>>>>>> myself >>>>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was done, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this way. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity (it >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of the >>>>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or trip >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think they >>>>>>> pulled >>>>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know how >>>>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a >>>>>>> little? >>>>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of skills, >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to >>>>>>> "not >>>>>>> look >>>>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know either. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled with a >>>>>>> cane >>>>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 >>>>>>> words >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted people >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind >>>>>>> justice >>>>>>> super blind character. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of Shrek >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to face >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>>>> creative >>>>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a lot >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family is, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>>>> generation. >>>>>>> It >>>>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the >>>>>>> truth >>>>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>>>> understand >>>>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means I or >>>>>>> others >>>>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go along >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>>>> correctness >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >>>>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >>>>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind children >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who don't >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab counselors >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little >>>>>>> gumption >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>>>> simple >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>> terrible >>>>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about >>>>>>> it..." >>>>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly portray >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you >>>>>>> say. >>>>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> >>>>>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, >>>>>>> unless >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this >>>>>>> extreme >>>>>>> >>>>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>>>> general. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>>>> expectation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>>>> socioeconomic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>>>> people, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>>>> follow >>>>>>> >>>>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>>>> looking >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> >>>>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you >>>>>>> choose >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used >>>>>>> "environment" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but >>>>>>> then, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>>>> determination >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> >>>>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as >>>>>>> commodities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >>>>>>> >>>>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the >>>>>>> apple >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and the orange. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>>>> slaves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to >>>>>>> recall >>>>>>> >>>>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >>>>>>> >>>>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> >>>>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>> >>>>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>>>> Hispanic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the >>>>>>> party >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> party in the first place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on >>>>>>> stereotypes? >>>>>>> Not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>>>> generally >>>>>>> >>>>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. >>>>>>> Enough >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>>>> looking >>>>>>> >>>>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to >>>>>>> lend >>>>>>> >>>>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>>>> targeted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>>>> status. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>>>> depressed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well >>>>>>> laugh >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the >>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> >>>>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>>>> sarcastic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> existence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about >>>>>>> JAWS...I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with >>>>>>> career >>>>>>> >>>>>>> aspirations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not >>>>>>> yet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. >>>>>>> Never >>>>>>> mind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>>>> training, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few >>>>>>> days, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> >>>>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>>>> release. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>> M. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>>>> personal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes >>>>>>> once >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not >>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>> >>>>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who >>>>>>> grew >>>>>>> up >>>>>>> >>>>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who >>>>>>> grew >>>>>>> up >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to >>>>>>> travel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or >>>>>>> any) >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> become a good reader. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. >>>>>>> Black >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people >>>>>>> often >>>>>>> cut >>>>>>> >>>>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in >>>>>>> order >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> >>>>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites >>>>>>> came >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving >>>>>>> >>>>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? >>>>>>> Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blacks? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>>>> asylums, >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and >>>>>>> today >>>>>>> >>>>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes >>>>>>> due >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep >>>>>>> sense >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> name >>>>>>> >>>>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>>>> nigger. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> >>>>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>>>> denial >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> joke >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> >>>>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>>>> stretching >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>>>> eyesight--when >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the >>>>>>> least. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> >>>>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one >>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> >>>>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>> Home >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are >>>>>>> told >>>>>>> >>>>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>>>> encouragement, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast >>>>>>> number >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>>>> socialization >>>>>>> >>>>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to >>>>>>> whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> >>>>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David >>>>>>> Patersons >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>>>> themselves? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll >>>>>>> bet >>>>>>> South >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. >>>>>>> Yet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>>>> attempt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> less >>>>>>> >>>>>>> than perfect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to >>>>>>> visual >>>>>>> >>>>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just >>>>>>> human, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>>>> Somehow >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other >>>>>>> blindies, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>> M. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to >>>>>>> look >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the >>>>>>> next >>>>>>> few >>>>>>> >>>>>>> days. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a >>>>>>> cane >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> >>>>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> >>>>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised >>>>>>> "looking >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>>>> ironic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> >>>>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> >>>>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual >>>>>>> techniques. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical >>>>>>> black >>>>>>> >>>>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon >>>>>>> eating >>>>>>> scene >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the >>>>>> public >>>>>> >>>>>>> outcry >>>>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>>>> reality-- >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal >>>>>>> means >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>>>> portrayal) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>> Home >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is >>>>>>>> hurtful >>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... >>>>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>>>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>>>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>>>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real >>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people >>>>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>>>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>>>> show. >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>>>> NY Times: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>>>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, >>>>>>>>>> certain >>>>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of >>>>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, >>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at >>>>>>>>>>>> 70 >>>>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, 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list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From spangler.robert at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 20:03:51 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:03:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <49514427.5070208@gmail.com> Hello Mr. Carter, I do understand that there is a line that must be drawn regarding when one may need assistance. As Brice said in a previous message, we can't get anywhere without at least some dependence on others and I agree with this. even people without disabilities need a hand sometimes. I am OK with using public transportation and maybe accepting the occasional ride from a sighted counterpart; however, that is with the understanding that I do not do it all the time, I am not inconveniencing that person, and I have the skills to get from point A to point B if that driver weren't present. Public transit doesn't count to me because sighted people use that as well. I simply try not to seem as though I need more help than the average sighted person. sure, I need help with things due to my vision impairment, but I try my hardest to keep that to a minimum. I have heard many times, and it is a contraversial subject on here, that Mr. Paterson is assisted more than he should be and that he is unable to perform many tasks that you and I do ourselves independently on a daily basis. Yes, you are right in that many politicians pay people to do things for them simply because they can afford it and why not if they can pay someone to do it? sure I agree with that, but only if I am able to perform those chores by myself first would I invest in someone to do them for me. Thanks, Robby T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Brice, > > It never ceases to amaze me how quickly you see through to the heart of > the matter. That's a fine talent and gift you've got, and I am always > glad to see the use to which you put it. > > Let us consider a hypothetical situation: I am in Monmouth, Oregon and > I wish to attend a conference in Portland, Oregon. For a sighted > person, it is an eighty minute drive, but I am blind and have an "Oregon > license to not drive. Ever." (That is a story for another email.) > > How shall I get there? I can hire a driver. I can take travel using > three interconnected public transit systems. I can ask someone for a > ride. Or, someone may offer me a ride. > > Robert seems to suggest that I am not independent unless I can get there > without reliance on others. That takes away hiring a driver (i.e., > letting an employee provide transportation), and public transit (i.e., > letting four different people drive different legs of the trip). > > That's not a bad definition of independence, but it points out the truth > rather clearly: None of us, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is > independent. Those sighted people who are driving depend on people to > manufacture and maintain the cars they drive, after all. > > Yet Robert is right that I should be able to make the decision to attend > without first asking someone else if they're willing or able to provide > me with the means to do it. This is self-determination, and I do not > believe a healthy level of independence exists in the absence of it. > > That said, a healthy level of independence seems to also require that > once I have reached self-determination, I am comfortable enough with my > own ability to find a way to get there that I can give an appropriate > answer when a colleague says, "Hey, I'm going to the same conference, > and I live just a few blocks away from you. Can I offer you a ride?" > That answer might be, "Thanks for offering, but no, I have a couple of > errands to run along the way." Or it might be, "Hey, thanks! I > appreciate it!" > > Could I get there otherwise, absolutely I can. Do I need to prove it? > To whom, exactly? And why? > > Governor Patterson has many aides who do things for him that the rest of > us do for ourselves because he pays them to. In that he's like any > other politician. Politicians frequently pay people to drive for them, > do their laundry, clean up their houses, read their mail, and the list > goes on. They could do these things, but that would mean less time for > being a politician. Some of the things Governor Patterson's aides do > are different than what other governors' aides do, but they're no more > and no less than the things others have done for them. > > Could Governor Patterson do these things for himself if he were no > longer in office with aides to help him with everything? Possibly he'd > have to learn how to do some of them--remember that President Clinton > had to learn how to use an ATM after he left office. Maybe the ATMs are > more complex for politicians, though. I mean, I use one and it asks me > Checking or Savings.. He probably gets asked to choose Hard Money, Soft > Money, etc. *grin* > > If the governor wants to make a decision, do you think he's got to go > around and ask people if they can do it for him? I suspect he just > makes it, and calls someone to ask them to arrange the details, just as > any other executive would. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:27:17PM -0500, Brice Smith wrote: >> Robert, >> >> So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do >> something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, >> If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a >> difference and is worthless. >> >> I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out >> philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are >> going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this >> doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of >> things: >> >> If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any >> other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're >> going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be >> sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to >> your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of >> helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for >> the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If >> he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives >> from the people around him might not change. The same goes for >> Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other >> governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly >> assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires >> to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who >> would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly >> have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would >> want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without >> being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. >> >> But what difference does it make? >> >> -Brice >> >> On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor and >>> all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely >>> based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, but if >>> someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what >>> difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing >>> my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be proud of >>> myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted >>> person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide >>> me down the street. >>> >>> >>> Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Robert, >>>> >>>> ": >>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >>>> >>>> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor Paterson is >>>> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >>>> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >>>> Hofstra University School of Law. >>>> >>>> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >>>> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >>>> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >>>> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, I'm >>>> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >>>> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >>>> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >>>> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of him? >>>> >>>> -Brice >>>> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making >>>>> fun of >>>>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>>> Hi Carrie, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I >>>>>> will not >>>>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience shows >>>>>> that >>>>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and >>>>>> life >>>>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not >>>>>> choose our >>>>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents >>>>>> lacked the >>>>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher >>>>>> showed >>>>>> me >>>>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My >>>>>> parents did >>>>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, >>>>>> etc. >>>>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn >>>>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child >>>>>> will >>>>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>>>> create >>>>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>>>> >>>>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see >>>>>> it? >>>>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be >>>>>> forgotten. >>>>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is made >>>>>> fun >>>>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the >>>>>> clip. But >>>>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to change >>>>>> and >>>>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than >>>>>> being >>>>>> defensive about media clips. >>>>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was picked >>>>>> up by >>>>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I >>>>>>> never said >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are >>>>>>> tough go >>>>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be >>>>>>> theirs. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide >>>>>>> variety >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>>>> decades >>>>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>>>> over-all >>>>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have had >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it back, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it >>>>>>> totally back >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along as >>>>>>> best >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general >>>>>>> never had >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>>>> belief >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do >>>>>>> achieve >>>>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are >>>>>>> equal >>>>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or >>>>>>> levels >>>>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to come >>>>>>> back. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am >>>>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that >>>>>>> there are >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your >>>>>>> earlier >>>>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not >>>>>>> even >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility yet >>>>>>> I am >>>>>>> also >>>>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person >>>>>>> who can >>>>>>> rise >>>>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>>>> anything >>>>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person >>>>>>> seemingly can >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level dependency, >>>>>>> and a >>>>>>> lack >>>>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that >>>>>>> generally >>>>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or >>>>>>> circumstances >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind people >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple forms >>>>>>> even >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that >>>>>>> happens >>>>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>>>> themselves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility >>>>>>> overall or >>>>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a deep >>>>>>> faith >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>>>> challenges >>>>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say >>>>>>> it is >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I see >>>>>>> a lot >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong in >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally >>>>>>> changing >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it >>>>>>> means to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>>>> misconceptions >>>>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of >>>>>>> access, >>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as a >>>>>>> group >>>>>>> hard >>>>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right for >>>>>>> us to >>>>>>> come >>>>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped >>>>>>> give >>>>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside >>>>>>> and to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not >>>>>>> exclude >>>>>>> the other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >>>>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>>>> lofty. >>>>>>> A >>>>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>>>> relative's >>>>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I want >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain >>>>>>> if they >>>>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves >>>>>>> setting a >>>>>>> goal, >>>>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their direction. >>>>>>> Yet, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, >>>>>>> and if >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really >>>>>>> meant to >>>>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and >>>>>>> disappointments, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those >>>>>>> obstacles. It >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built entirely >>>>>>> alone. >>>>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >>>>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help >>>>>>> fuel >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will >>>>>>> guarantee >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. By >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views others >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence that >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>>>> arguments >>>>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the >>>>>>> middle >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>>>> States >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities >>>>>>> enjoyed >>>>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts >>>>>>> of the >>>>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too >>>>>>> far >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to >>>>>>> work >>>>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex >>>>>>> trafficking >>>>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is the >>>>>>> victim >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. >>>>>>> Is it >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>>>> circumstances? >>>>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not >>>>>>> enough on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather >>>>>>> ponder the >>>>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human >>>>>>> nature, >>>>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>>>> person's >>>>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane >>>>>>> crash. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I >>>>>>> should >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be >>>>>>> tough, but >>>>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter of >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would >>>>>>> argue >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the >>>>>>> attendance >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this >>>>>>> hard core >>>>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be >>>>>>> good, >>>>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference between >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would >>>>>>> venture >>>>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic >>>>>>> means >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the >>>>>>> "workability of >>>>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's >>>>>>> limitations are >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person >>>>>>> held >>>>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>>>> hypothesis >>>>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as >>>>>>> responsibility? >>>>>>> To >>>>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>>>> environment >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a >>>>>>> position may >>>>>>> sit >>>>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so >>>>>>> much a >>>>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. >>>>>>> Unfortunately, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>>>> defensive >>>>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an >>>>>>> uninformed >>>>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>>>> delicate >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>>>> segment >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the >>>>>>> show's >>>>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the >>>>>>> segment >>>>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of >>>>>>> whether or >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, so >>>>>>> is it >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >>>>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a >>>>>>> better use >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that >>>>>>> could >>>>>>> take >>>>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. >>>>>>> If >>>>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, yet >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> now >>>>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>> M. >>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged I >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> found >>>>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in my >>>>>>> hair. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>>>> personal >>>>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then >>>>>>> how you >>>>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the >>>>>>> choices >>>>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> view >>>>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>>>> determination >>>>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain kind >>>>>>> of job >>>>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished >>>>>>> despite >>>>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >>>>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>>>> reality >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier mentoring, >>>>>>> inborn >>>>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible >>>>>>> supports. We >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>>>> fantasy >>>>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>>>> becomes a >>>>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally >>>>>>> always >>>>>>> free >>>>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>>>> choosing. I >>>>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and >>>>>>> white >>>>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now >>>>>>> powerless >>>>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the >>>>>>> reality he >>>>>>> did. >>>>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of >>>>>>> unemployment >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In fact >>>>>>> I am >>>>>>> full >>>>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than ever >>>>>>> before >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> history. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition also >>>>>>> takes >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, >>>>>>> victims >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >>>>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. >>>>>>> If you >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly because >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination >>>>>>> born >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a >>>>>>> distaste for >>>>>>> whom >>>>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>>>> completely >>>>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> black >>>>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The >>>>>>> comparison I >>>>>>> used >>>>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as >>>>>>> it is >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> blind people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its >>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. That >>>>>>> is not >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>>>> ability, >>>>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>>>> potential >>>>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >>>>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise >>>>>>> above >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>>>> available >>>>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. >>>>>>> They need >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >>>>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the perceived >>>>>>> easy >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use >>>>>>> it for >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up >>>>>>> or seem >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person >>>>>>> around. >>>>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each of >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never >>>>>>> learned >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as someone >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the >>>>>>> workability >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>>>> misunderstanding >>>>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >>>>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>>>> something >>>>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed >>>>>>> along >>>>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently don't) >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than >>>>>>> with. To >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and >>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the >>>>>>> population of >>>>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something >>>>>>> could lead >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing and >>>>>>> gives >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>>>> creative >>>>>>> and bright. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh at >>>>>>> myself >>>>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was >>>>>>> done, and >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I don't >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this >>>>>>> way. I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no creativity >>>>>>> (it >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or >>>>>>> trip and >>>>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I think >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> pulled >>>>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't know >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a >>>>>>> little? >>>>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of >>>>>>> skills, how >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised to >>>>>>> "not >>>>>>> look >>>>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know >>>>>>> either. I >>>>>>> think >>>>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled >>>>>>> with a >>>>>>> cane >>>>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at 350 >>>>>>> words >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that they >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted >>>>>>> people do >>>>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind >>>>>>> justice >>>>>>> super blind character. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of >>>>>>> Shrek >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to >>>>>>> face the >>>>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>>>> creative >>>>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost a >>>>>>> lot >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family >>>>>>> is, and >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy >>>>>>> on the >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>>>> generation. >>>>>>> It >>>>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the >>>>>>> truth >>>>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are >>>>>>> really >>>>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>>>> understand >>>>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor means >>>>>>> I or >>>>>>> others >>>>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go >>>>>>> along or >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>>>> correctness >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >>>>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >>>>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind >>>>>>> children >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who >>>>>>> don't are >>>>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab >>>>>>> counselors >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little >>>>>>> gumption >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>>>> simple >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>> terrible >>>>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's >>>>>>> use >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about >>>>>>> it..." >>>>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly >>>>>>> portray >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you >>>>>>> say. >>>>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> >>>>>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, >>>>>>> unless >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this >>>>>>> extreme >>>>>>> >>>>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>>>> general. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>>>> expectation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>>>> socioeconomic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>>>> people, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>>>> follow >>>>>>> >>>>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>>>> looking >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> >>>>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you >>>>>>> choose >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used >>>>>>> "environment" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> then, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>>>> determination >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> >>>>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind >>>>>>> people may >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have >>>>>>> never >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as >>>>>>> commodities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced >>>>>>> their own >>>>>>> set >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >>>>>>> >>>>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the >>>>>>> apple >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and the orange. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>>>> slaves. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to >>>>>>> recall >>>>>>> >>>>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >>>>>>> >>>>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. >>>>>>> People >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> >>>>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> whole >>>>>>> >>>>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>>>> Hispanic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the >>>>>>> party >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic >>>>>>> hosting the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> party in the first place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on >>>>>>> stereotypes? >>>>>>> Not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>>>> generally >>>>>>> >>>>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. >>>>>>> Enough >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >>>>>>> >>>>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are >>>>>>> enough >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>>>> looking >>>>>>> >>>>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to >>>>>>> lend >>>>>>> >>>>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>>>> targeted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at >>>>>>> black >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>>>> status. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>>>> depressed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well >>>>>>> laugh >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your >>>>>>> generation may >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the >>>>>>> ways >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> >>>>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>>>> sarcastic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> existence. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> >>>>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less >>>>>>> refusal to >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about >>>>>>> JAWS...I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with >>>>>>> career >>>>>>> >>>>>>> aspirations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? >>>>>>> One has >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not >>>>>>> yet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. >>>>>>> Never >>>>>>> mind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily >>>>>>> forgotten >>>>>>> had >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>>>> training, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The >>>>>>> NFB is >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than >>>>>>> we were >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few >>>>>>> days, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible >>>>>>> things >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> >>>>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the >>>>>>> strength >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>>>> release. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>> M. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>>>> personal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't >>>>>>> think that >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes >>>>>>> once >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not >>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>> >>>>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person >>>>>>> who grew >>>>>>> up >>>>>>> >>>>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who >>>>>>> grew >>>>>>> up >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to >>>>>>> travel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille >>>>>>> (or any) >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> become a good reader. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. >>>>>>> Black >>>>>>> >>>>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people >>>>>>> often >>>>>>> cut >>>>>>> >>>>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in >>>>>>> order >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> >>>>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites >>>>>>> came >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of >>>>>>> surviving >>>>>>> >>>>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of >>>>>>> blacks? Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic >>>>>>> basis >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blacks? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>>>> asylums, >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> today >>>>>>> >>>>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the >>>>>>> stereotypes due >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word >>>>>>> f**k >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, >>>>>>> call it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a >>>>>>> deep >>>>>>> sense >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves >>>>>>> by a >>>>>>> name >>>>>>> >>>>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>>>> nigger. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> >>>>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. >>>>>>> When the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>>>> denial >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well >>>>>>> c'mon that >>>>>>> joke >>>>>>> >>>>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> >>>>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>>>> stretching >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>>>> eyesight--when >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the >>>>>>> least. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> >>>>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old >>>>>>> stereotype--if you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> >>>>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one >>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> >>>>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are >>>>>>> told >>>>>>> >>>>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>>>> encouragement, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast >>>>>>> number >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>>>> socialization >>>>>>> >>>>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to >>>>>>> whether >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> >>>>>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative >>>>>>> techniques to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> >>>>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David >>>>>>> Patersons >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because television >>>>>>> mocked >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind >>>>>>> man >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not >>>>>>> agree that >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>>>> themselves? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. >>>>>>> I'll bet >>>>>>> South >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an >>>>>>> outrage. Yet >>>>>>> >>>>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>>>> attempt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah >>>>>>> Palin's >>>>>>> >>>>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown >>>>>>> to be >>>>>>> less >>>>>>> >>>>>>> than perfect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to >>>>>>> visual >>>>>>> >>>>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are >>>>>>> just >>>>>>> human, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>>>> Somehow >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to >>>>>>> laugh at >>>>>>> other >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other >>>>>>> blindies, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>> M. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time >>>>>>> to look >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the >>>>>>> next >>>>>>> few >>>>>>> >>>>>>> days. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a >>>>>>> cane >>>>>>> or >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> >>>>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted >>>>>>> person >>>>>>> >>>>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. >>>>>>> It is >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> >>>>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that >>>>>>> this was >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised >>>>>>> "looking >>>>>>> >>>>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>>>> ironic >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most >>>>>>> stereotypical way >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> >>>>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. >>>>>>> It also >>>>>>> >>>>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual >>>>>>> techniques. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >>>>>>> >>>>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical >>>>>>> black >>>>>>> >>>>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon >>>>>>> eating >>>>>>> scene >>>>>>> >>>>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public >>>>>>> outcry >>>>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>>>> reality-- >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> >>>>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every >>>>>>> portrayal >>>>>>> means >>>>>>> >>>>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>>>> portrayal) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is >>>>>>>> hurtful >>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>> that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>>>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>>>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>>>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real >>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>>>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>>>> show. >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also >>>>>>>>> have an >>>>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>>>> NY Times: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link >>>>>>>>> below >>>>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely >>>>>>>>>> helpful to >>>>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at >>>>>>>>>> blindness, or >>>>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, >>>>>>>>>> certain >>>>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I >>>>>>>>>> said what >>>>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of >>>>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I >>>>>>>>>>> want to >>>>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness >>>>>>>>>>>> itself, but >>>>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains >>>>>>>>>>>> at 70 >>>>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. >>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of >>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday >>>>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ronto.ca >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>> >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>> >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 21:17:46 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:17:46 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Calling All New State Student Divisions... Message-ID: Hello NABS listers, If you're a member of a state student division that was organized during the past two years (2007 or 2008), we'd like to hear from you! NABS is putting together an informational handbook for people interested in starting or building up student divisions in their states. We're compiling a bunch of examples of great seminars, fund-raisers and other activities that other state divisions have done. We have a bunch of contributions already from some of our largest and oldest divisions, but we'd also like to include input from some of our newer divisions as well, to inspire those of us who are starting from the very beginning. So if your division is less than two years old and you've recently sponsored a seminar, fund-raiser or other activity that went well, we'd like to hear about it! Please reply on-list and tell us about your activity. Better yet, if you still have the agenda or other written materials from your event that you'd be willing to share with other NABS leaders, please send them to me individually at arielle71 at gmail.com Thanks in advance for your contributions! Hope everyone has an excellent holiday and a happy and healthy New Year, Arielle Silverman First Vice-President, National Association of Blind Students From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 00:45:33 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:45:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Calling All New State Student Divisions... Message-ID: Subject: [nabs-l] Calling All New State Student Divisions... Hello NABS listers, If you're a member of a state student division that was organized during the past two years (2007 or 2008), we'd like to hear from you! NABS is putting together an informational handbook for people interested in starting or building up student divisions in their states. We're compiling a bunch of examples of great seminars, fund-raisers and other activities that other state divisions have done. We have a bunch of contributions already from some of our largest and oldest divisions, but we'd also like to include input from some of our newer divisions as well, to inspire those of us who are starting from the very beginning. So if your division is less than two years old and you've recently sponsored a seminar, fund-raiser or other activity that went well, we'd like to hear about it! Please reply on-list and tell us about your activity. Better yet, if you still have the agenda or other written materials from your event that you'd be willing to share with other NABS leaders, please send them to me individually at arielle71 at gmail.com Thanks in advance for your contributions! Hope everyone has an excellent holiday and a happy and healthy New Year, Arielle Silverman First Vice-President, National Association of Blind Students _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 06:23:31 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:23:31 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <49514427.5070208@gmail.com> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> <49514427.5070208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081224062331.GB8826@yumi.bluecherry.net> So then, for you it is the appearance of not needing extra help that is the important factor? I used to have a similar outlook with regards to intellectual matters. To put it bluntly, sighted people tended to assume that I was stupid because I was blind when I was younger. The way I established myself was by being clearly smarter than others around me. I sincerely hope that you cannot actually imagine what high school was like for me, with that sort of personality. As I continued in my education, I maintained an attitude basically of contempt for the silly hoops I was being expected to jump through to demonstrate that I knew what I obviously did. I had few friends. One day, one who has become one of my most trusted friends said to me, "Joseph, we all know you're smart. You're absolutely brilliant. So who are you trying to prove it to?" I couldn't answer her then. Today, I know the answer: I was trying to prove it to myself. I needed to convince myself that I was smart enough, that I was good enough. I needed legitimacy somehow, because I had been considered somehow inferior for so long. Far too many people I would class as complete morons acted like they should be pitying me because I was so deprived by not being able to see. If anything, they were the ones who needed pity for not being able to think! Did I mention I carried a lot of anger and resentment as well? You know what the problem was? They were right, I was inferior, and I knew it. For all of my intellect, I had never had the opportunity to learn the skills of blindness. I had never really learned how to be unafraid crossing a busy street I couldn't see the other side of. I never learned to read Braille. I never even learned how to cook without fear that I would give myself salmonella or something. I accepted these things eventually. I got the training. I accepted that my success as a graduate student--particularly given the discrimination I have faced in the program--says all that ever need be said about my own cognitive ability. It also speaks volumes as to my newly acquired skills of blindness. Put simply, my skills are phenomenal, and growing more so. I am among the best travel students to come out of the Colorado Center for the Blind, and I am getting better. I can get anywhere I need to, however I need to get there, and I know it intuitively. I no longer care about appearances that I do so because anyone who does not look closely enough will never see anything but some blind guy. Anyone who looks more closely than that will see me, a blind guy who can and does go anywhere and do anything he sets his mind to. It's true Governor Patterson does not use a cane, and rightly he should. It is also true that he depends too much on audio recordings because he did not learn Braille. Yet parents of blind children have been forced to admit that the cane would make Governor Patterson look less confident and probably impede his job. We say that to be blind is respectable and that the cane is a symbol of that respect, but the sighted world doesn't agree. I've had this discussion with sighted friends, and the overall agreement we have reached is that I appear confident with my cane only because I appear to be extremely confident without it. The cane subtracts from apparent confidence in the eyes of the sighted public, and Governor Patterson doesn't have what it takes to pull it off in his line of work. So he uses a lot of sighted guide with a somewhat unorthodox technique that is basically effective and looks good on camera. Good adaptation on his part. As to Braille, there are a lot of people who don't know Braille who are blind. It would be enough to me for Governor Patterson to say that Braille is important, literacy is important, and that it would probably would've been better for him in the long run if he had learned it. He can't take the time to do so now. These are the two things that people have cited on these lists most often. Others were cited, but have been explained as things an executive would be expected to pay someone else to do anyway. I'll forgive his rejection of a cane since it truly would impede his career (whether I think that's just or not), and I understand the challenge of learning Braille as an adult because I learned it as one. Hopefully my ramblings have helped explain my thinking at least a bit. Joseph On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 03:03:51PM -0500, Robert Spangler wrote: > Hello Mr. Carter, > > I do understand that there is a line that must be drawn regarding when > one may need assistance. As Brice said in a previous message, we can't > get anywhere without at least some dependence on others and I agree with > this. even people without disabilities need a hand sometimes. I am OK > with using public transportation and maybe accepting the occasional ride > from a sighted counterpart; however, that is with the understanding that > I do not do it all the time, I am not inconveniencing that person, and I > have the skills to get from point A to point B if that driver weren't > present. Public transit doesn't count to me because sighted people use > that as well. I simply try not to seem as though I need more help than > the average sighted person. sure, I need help with things due to my > vision impairment, but I try my hardest to keep that to a minimum. I > have heard many times, and it is a contraversial subject on here, that > Mr. Paterson is assisted more than he should be and that he is unable to > perform many tasks that you and I do ourselves independently on a daily > basis. Yes, you are right in that many politicians pay people to do > things for them simply because they can afford it and why not if they > can pay someone to do it? sure I agree with that, but only if I am able > to perform those chores by myself first would I invest in someone to do > them for me. > > Thanks, > Robby > T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Brice, >> >> It never ceases to amaze me how quickly you see through to the heart of >> the matter. That's a fine talent and gift you've got, and I am always >> glad to see the use to which you put it. >> >> Let us consider a hypothetical situation: I am in Monmouth, Oregon and >> I wish to attend a conference in Portland, Oregon. For a sighted >> person, it is an eighty minute drive, but I am blind and have an >> "Oregon license to not drive. Ever." (That is a story for another >> email.) >> >> How shall I get there? I can hire a driver. I can take travel using >> three interconnected public transit systems. I can ask someone for a >> ride. Or, someone may offer me a ride. >> >> Robert seems to suggest that I am not independent unless I can get >> there without reliance on others. That takes away hiring a driver >> (i.e., letting an employee provide transportation), and public transit >> (i.e., letting four different people drive different legs of the trip). >> >> That's not a bad definition of independence, but it points out the >> truth rather clearly: None of us, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is >> independent. Those sighted people who are driving depend on people to >> manufacture and maintain the cars they drive, after all. >> >> Yet Robert is right that I should be able to make the decision to >> attend without first asking someone else if they're willing or able to >> provide me with the means to do it. This is self-determination, and I >> do not believe a healthy level of independence exists in the absence of >> it. >> >> That said, a healthy level of independence seems to also require that >> once I have reached self-determination, I am comfortable enough with my >> own ability to find a way to get there that I can give an appropriate >> answer when a colleague says, "Hey, I'm going to the same conference, >> and I live just a few blocks away from you. Can I offer you a ride?" >> That answer might be, "Thanks for offering, but no, I have a couple of >> errands to run along the way." Or it might be, "Hey, thanks! I >> appreciate it!" >> >> Could I get there otherwise, absolutely I can. Do I need to prove it? >> To whom, exactly? And why? >> >> Governor Patterson has many aides who do things for him that the rest >> of us do for ourselves because he pays them to. In that he's like any >> other politician. Politicians frequently pay people to drive for them, >> do their laundry, clean up their houses, read their mail, and the list >> goes on. They could do these things, but that would mean less time for >> being a politician. Some of the things Governor Patterson's aides do >> are different than what other governors' aides do, but they're no more >> and no less than the things others have done for them. >> >> Could Governor Patterson do these things for himself if he were no >> longer in office with aides to help him with everything? Possibly he'd >> have to learn how to do some of them--remember that President Clinton >> had to learn how to use an ATM after he left office. Maybe the ATMs >> are more complex for politicians, though. I mean, I use one and it >> asks me Checking or Savings.. He probably gets asked to choose Hard >> Money, Soft Money, etc. *grin* >> >> If the governor wants to make a decision, do you think he's got to go >> around and ask people if they can do it for him? I suspect he just >> makes it, and calls someone to ask them to arrange the details, just as >> any other executive would. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:27:17PM -0500, Brice Smith wrote: >>> Robert, >>> >>> So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do >>> something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, >>> If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a >>> difference and is worthless. >>> >>> I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out >>> philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are >>> going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this >>> doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of >>> things: >>> >>> If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any >>> other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're >>> going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be >>> sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to >>> your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of >>> helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for >>> the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If >>> he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives >>> from the people around him might not change. The same goes for >>> Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other >>> governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly >>> assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires >>> to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who >>> would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly >>> have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would >>> want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without >>> being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. >>> >>> But what difference does it make? >>> >>> -Brice >>> >>> On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor and >>>> all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely >>>> based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, but if >>>> someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what >>>> difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing >>>> my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be proud of >>>> myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted >>>> person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide >>>> me down the street. >>>> >>>> >>>> Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Robert, >>>>> >>>>> ": >>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >>>>> >>>>> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor Paterson is >>>>> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >>>>> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >>>>> Hofstra University School of Law. >>>>> >>>>> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >>>>> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >>>>> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >>>>> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, I'm >>>>> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >>>>> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >>>>> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >>>>> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of him? >>>>> >>>>> -Brice >>>>> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and >>>>>> making fun of >>>>>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>>>> Hi Carrie, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. >>>>>>> I will not >>>>>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience >>>>>>> shows that >>>>>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>>>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity and >>>>>>> life >>>>>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not >>>>>>> choose our >>>>>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents >>>>>>> lacked the >>>>>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab >>>>>>> teacher showed >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My >>>>>>> parents did >>>>>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with me, >>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to learn >>>>>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young child >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>>>>> create >>>>>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link to see >>>>>>> it? >>>>>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be >>>>>>> forgotten. >>>>>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is made >>>>>>> fun >>>>>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the >>>>>>> clip. But >>>>>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to >>>>>>> change and >>>>>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather than >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> defensive about media clips. >>>>>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>>>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was >>>>>>> picked up by >>>>>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. >>>>>>>> I never said >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people >>>>>>>> are tough go >>>>>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world >>>>>>>> can be theirs. >>>>>>>> My >>>>>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a >>>>>>>> wide variety >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>>>>> decades >>>>>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>>>>> over-all >>>>>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many >>>>>>>> have had the >>>>>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it >>>>>>>> back, and >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it >>>>>>>> totally back >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming >>>>>>>> along as best >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in >>>>>>>> general never had >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>>>>> belief >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up >>>>>>>> and do achieve >>>>>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And I basically agree that a person's choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all choices are >>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and supports or >>>>>>>> levels >>>>>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things >>>>>>>> to come back. >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and >>>>>>>> that there are >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of >>>>>>>> your earlier >>>>>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures that >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, and do >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may not >>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal >>>>>>>> responsibility yet I am >>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare >>>>>>>> person who can >>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person >>>>>>>> seemingly can >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level >>>>>>>> dependency, and a >>>>>>>> lack >>>>>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges >>>>>>>> that generally >>>>>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or >>>>>>>> circumstances >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind >>>>>>>> people are >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with isolation in >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple >>>>>>>> forms even >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things that >>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, there >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected anything of >>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>>>>> themselves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal >>>>>>>> responsibility overall or >>>>>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a >>>>>>>> deep faith >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>>>>> challenges >>>>>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to >>>>>>>> say it is >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because >>>>>>>> I see a lot >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and >>>>>>>> wrong in many >>>>>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world >>>>>>>> totally changing >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what >>>>>>>> it means to >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> blind. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>>>>> misconceptions >>>>>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack >>>>>>>> of access, >>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or >>>>>>>> ourselves as a group >>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was >>>>>>>> right for us to >>>>>>>> come >>>>>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and helped >>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the >>>>>>>> inside and to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one does not >>>>>>>> exclude >>>>>>>> the other. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be in a >>>>>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>>>>> lofty. >>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>>>>> relative's >>>>>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray >>>>>>>> the blind >>>>>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the world may >>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I >>>>>>>> want people >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a >>>>>>>> mountain if they >>>>>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves >>>>>>>> setting a >>>>>>>> goal, >>>>>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their >>>>>>>> direction. Yet, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving >>>>>>>> it, and if >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, >>>>>>>> the person >>>>>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never >>>>>>>> really meant to >>>>>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and >>>>>>>> disappointments, >>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those >>>>>>>> obstacles. It >>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built >>>>>>>> entirely alone. >>>>>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another person's >>>>>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will help >>>>>>>> fuel >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will >>>>>>>> guarantee >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly their >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will >>>>>>>> grow. By your >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own >>>>>>>> reality, because >>>>>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views >>>>>>>> others may >>>>>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence >>>>>>>> that would >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>>>>> arguments >>>>>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in >>>>>>>> the middle >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>>>>> States >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of opportunities >>>>>>>> enjoyed >>>>>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other >>>>>>>> parts of the >>>>>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come along too >>>>>>>> far >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and forced to >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex >>>>>>>> trafficking >>>>>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence >>>>>>>> simply because >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who >>>>>>>> is the victim >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair >>>>>>>> treatment. Is it >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>>>>> circumstances? >>>>>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and >>>>>>>> not enough on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would >>>>>>>> rather ponder the >>>>>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of human >>>>>>>> nature, >>>>>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a plane >>>>>>>> crash. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. >>>>>>>> What I should >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be >>>>>>>> tough, but >>>>>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the >>>>>>>> matter of what >>>>>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist >>>>>>>> would argue >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the >>>>>>>> attendance >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, >>>>>>>> this hard core >>>>>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere may be >>>>>>>> good, >>>>>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference >>>>>>>> between that >>>>>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I would >>>>>>>> venture >>>>>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the >>>>>>>> diplomatic means >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the >>>>>>>> "workability of >>>>>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's >>>>>>>> limitations are >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind person >>>>>>>> held >>>>>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>>>>> hypothesis >>>>>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as >>>>>>>> responsibility? >>>>>>>> To >>>>>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>>>>> environment >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a >>>>>>>> position may >>>>>>>> sit >>>>>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was >>>>>>>> not so much a >>>>>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. >>>>>>>> Unfortunately, >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>>>>> defensive >>>>>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead >>>>>>>> an uninformed >>>>>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>>>>> delicate >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only legitimized the >>>>>>>> show's >>>>>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to >>>>>>>> the segment >>>>>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question >>>>>>>> of whether or >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted himself in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show using >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative techniques >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for >>>>>>>> SNL, so is it >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on >>>>>>>> SNL because >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you have >>>>>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and educational >>>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a >>>>>>>> better use >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind >>>>>>>> people...that could >>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in reading. >>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my >>>>>>>> thoughts, yet for >>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have >>>>>>>> aged I have >>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including >>>>>>>> in my hair. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and >>>>>>>> then how you >>>>>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and flaws >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or limits the >>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people >>>>>>>> force their >>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain >>>>>>>> kind of job >>>>>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he wished >>>>>>>> despite >>>>>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the level of >>>>>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>>>>> reality >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what >>>>>>>> people think >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier >>>>>>>> mentoring, inborn >>>>>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible >>>>>>>> supports. We >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>>>>> fantasy >>>>>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>>>>> becomes a >>>>>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not >>>>>>>> totally always >>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>>>>> choosing. I >>>>>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't black and >>>>>>>> white >>>>>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum where >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are >>>>>>>> now powerless >>>>>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience >>>>>>>> the reality he >>>>>>>> did. >>>>>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of >>>>>>>> unemployment >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In >>>>>>>> fact I am >>>>>>>> full >>>>>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than >>>>>>>> ever before >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> history. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. >>>>>>>> Prohibition also takes >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been >>>>>>>> oppressed, victims >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are also >>>>>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even >>>>>>>> today. If you >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly >>>>>>>> because they >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is discrimination >>>>>>>> born >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a >>>>>>>> distaste for >>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. Blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to >>>>>>>> the blind >>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The >>>>>>>> comparison I >>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black >>>>>>>> people as it is >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> blind people. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having its >>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. >>>>>>>> That is not >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>>>>> ability, >>>>>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan who >>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality training >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>>>>> potential >>>>>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those whose >>>>>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind >>>>>>>> people who >>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to >>>>>>>> rise above >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the >>>>>>>> U.S. They need >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and it is >>>>>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the >>>>>>>> perceived easy >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or >>>>>>>> use it for >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have >>>>>>>> given up or seem >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind person >>>>>>>> around. >>>>>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for >>>>>>>> each of them >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who >>>>>>>> never learned >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as >>>>>>>> someone who >>>>>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are some >>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the >>>>>>>> workability >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>>>>> misunderstanding >>>>>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever >>>>>>>> change. I don't >>>>>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the world, but >>>>>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and laughed >>>>>>>> along >>>>>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently >>>>>>>> don't) then >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather >>>>>>>> than with. To >>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things and >>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the >>>>>>>> population of >>>>>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying >>>>>>>> something could lead >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches >>>>>>>> nothing and gives >>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>> and bright. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I >>>>>>>> laugh at myself >>>>>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it >>>>>>>> was done, and >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I >>>>>>>> don't think >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun >>>>>>>> this way. I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no >>>>>>>> creativity (it >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe they >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make >>>>>>>> fun of the >>>>>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall >>>>>>>> or trip and >>>>>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and the >>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I >>>>>>>> think they >>>>>>>> pulled >>>>>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I >>>>>>>> don't know how >>>>>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot or a >>>>>>>> little? >>>>>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of >>>>>>>> skills, how >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being >>>>>>>> raised to "not >>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL >>>>>>>> know either. I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically to the >>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been >>>>>>>> skilled with a >>>>>>>> cane >>>>>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille >>>>>>>> at 350 words >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that >>>>>>>> they would >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. >>>>>>>> "Skilled" blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like >>>>>>>> sighted people do >>>>>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the blind >>>>>>>> justice >>>>>>>> super blind character. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the >>>>>>>> end of Shrek >>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough >>>>>>>> to face the >>>>>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have >>>>>>>> lost a lot >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my >>>>>>>> family is, and >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of >>>>>>>> joy on the >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>>>>> generation. >>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw because the >>>>>>>> truth >>>>>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw but are >>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor >>>>>>>> means I or >>>>>>>> others >>>>>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we >>>>>>>> go along or >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>>>>> correctness >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you place >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet fully >>>>>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued butt of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not generally >>>>>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if >>>>>>>> these blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if >>>>>>>> blind children >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% >>>>>>>> who don't are >>>>>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if young >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab >>>>>>>> counselors >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a >>>>>>>> little gumption >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be having >>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>>>>> simple >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>>> terrible >>>>>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, >>>>>>>> let's use >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about >>>>>>>> it..." >>>>>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that >>>>>>>> wrongly portray >>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it as you >>>>>>>> say. >>>>>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact >>>>>>>> create their >>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. >>>>>>>> Yet, unless >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how >>>>>>>> this extreme >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>>>>> general. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>>>>> expectation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>>>>> socioeconomic >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you >>>>>>>> choose >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used >>>>>>>> "environment" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy >>>>>>>> task, but >>>>>>>> then, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of >>>>>>>> technology and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and >>>>>>>> slavery are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. >>>>>>>> Blind people may >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they >>>>>>>> have never >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as >>>>>>>> commodities. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have >>>>>>>> faced their own >>>>>>>> set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the >>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and the orange. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>>>>> slaves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to >>>>>>>> recall >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on >>>>>>>> culture. People >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you >>>>>>>> want their >>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>>>>> Hispanic >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the >>>>>>>> party >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic >>>>>>>> hosting the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> party in the first place. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on >>>>>>>> stereotypes? >>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's >>>>>>>> fire. Enough >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are >>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice >>>>>>>> but to lend >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>>>>> targeted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to >>>>>>>> surpass that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke >>>>>>>> fun at black >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>>>>> depressed >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may >>>>>>>> as well laugh >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your >>>>>>>> generation may >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the >>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>>>>> sarcastic >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> existence. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just >>>>>>>> maybe, there >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less >>>>>>>> refusal to >>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk >>>>>>>> about JAWS...I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do >>>>>>>> with career >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> aspirations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status >>>>>>>> quo? One has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not >>>>>>>> yet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of >>>>>>>> both. Never >>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily >>>>>>>> forgotten >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>>>>> training, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. >>>>>>>> The NFB is >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing >>>>>>>> population of blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature >>>>>>>> than we were >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few >>>>>>>> days, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>>> terrible things >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use >>>>>>>> the strength >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>>>>> release. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I >>>>>>>> don't think that >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low >>>>>>>> expectations, yes once >>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not >>>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a >>>>>>>> person who grew >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for >>>>>>>> someone who grew >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was >>>>>>>> allowed to travel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough >>>>>>>> Braille (or any) >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> become a good reader. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. >>>>>>>> Black >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black >>>>>>>> people often >>>>>>>> cut >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked >>>>>>>> illness in order >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity >>>>>>>> then that >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites >>>>>>>> came >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of >>>>>>>> surviving >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of >>>>>>>> blacks? Is >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true >>>>>>>> genetic basis >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blacks? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>>>>> asylums, >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered >>>>>>>> workshops, and >>>>>>>> today >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the >>>>>>>> stereotypes due >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The >>>>>>>> word f**k >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate >>>>>>>> it, call it >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out >>>>>>>> of a deep >>>>>>>> sense >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling >>>>>>>> themselves by a >>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>>>>> nigger. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or >>>>>>>> blind. When the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>>>>> denial >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard >>>>>>>> joke--well c'mon that >>>>>>>> joke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they >>>>>>>> come up with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>>>>> stretching >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>>>>> eyesight--when >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of >>>>>>>> that joke does >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at >>>>>>>> the least. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy >>>>>>>> able to like >>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old >>>>>>>> stereotype--if you >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that >>>>>>>> one doesn't >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are >>>>>>>> told >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>>>>> encouragement, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A >>>>>>>> vast number >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>>>>> socialization >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice >>>>>>>> as to whether >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative >>>>>>>> techniques to >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind >>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the >>>>>>>> David Patersons >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the >>>>>>>> NFB would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because >>>>>>>> television mocked >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling >>>>>>>> blind man >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you >>>>>>>> not agree that >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>>>>> themselves? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being >>>>>>>> black. I'll bet >>>>>>>> South >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an >>>>>>>> outrage. Yet >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every >>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>>>>> attempt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about >>>>>>>> Sarah Palin's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are >>>>>>>> shown to be >>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> than perfect. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind >>>>>>>> according to visual >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because >>>>>>>> we are just >>>>>>>> human, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>>>>> Somehow >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people >>>>>>>> to laugh at >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each >>>>>>>> other blindies, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had >>>>>>>> time to look >>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the >>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> days. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not >>>>>>>> use a cane >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted >>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't >>>>>>>> work. It is >>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard >>>>>>>> that this was >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be >>>>>>>> raised "looking >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>>>>> ironic >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most >>>>>>>> stereotypical way >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever >>>>>>>> attain. It also >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual >>>>>>>> techniques. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical >>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, >>>>>>>> watermelon eating >>>>>>>> scene >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public >>>>>>>> outcry >>>>>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>>>>> reality-- >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is >>>>>>>> just one more >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every >>>>>>>> portrayal >>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>>>>> portrayal) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole >>>>>>>>> thing is hurtful >>>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but >>>>>>>>> did they have >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and >>>>>>>>> in the way >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at >>>>>>>>> him without >>>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press >>>>>>>>> release? ... >>>>>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a >>>>>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of >>>>>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for >>>>>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about >>>>>>>>> real issues. >>>>>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed >>>>>>>>> millions of people >>>>>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers >>>>>>>>> thought blind >>>>>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other >>>>>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>>>>> show. >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I >>>>>>>>>> also have an >>>>>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>>>>> NY Times: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at >>>>>>>>>> the link below >>>>>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>>>>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the >>>>>>>>>> comments that >>>>>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>>>>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be >>>>>>>>>>> extremely helpful to >>>>>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically >>>>>>>>>>> at blindness, or >>>>>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on >>>>>>>>>>> the show, certain >>>>>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>>>>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering >>>>>>>>>>> as I said what >>>>>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of >>>>>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and >>>>>>>>>>>> someday I want to >>>>>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not >>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness itself, but >>>>>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that >>>>>>>>>>>>> stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind seniors, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the >>>>>>>>>>>>> producers of Saturday >>>>>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>>>>>>>>>>> your account info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>>>>>>>>>> your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ronto.ca >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Dec 24 20:22:23 2008 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:22:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: EdSharp 2.9 and FileDir 3.5 released Message-ID: > >New versions of the EdSharp editor and FileDir file manager are available >this holiday season! Improvements are described below. > >Cheers, >Jamal > >EdSharp 2.9 >http://EmpowermentZone.com/edsetup.exe > >Fixed the Alternate Menu command (Alt+F10). Fixed the Append from >Clipboard command (Alt+7) saving duplicate copies of text. > >Modified how indentation levels are spoken, e.g., with the Query Indent >command (Alt+I). Instead of saying "0 levels," "1 level," "2 levels," >etc., EdSharp now says "Level 0," "Level 1," "Level 2," etc. It then >reads the line above with different indentation, which is typically a >statement that introduced the current code block. > >Added a configuration option that determines the state of indent mode when >a new document window is opened. This mode may be toggled on a per-window >basis (Alt+Shift+I). This setting determines whether it is initially on >or off when a file is opened. The default is off, and may be changed via >the Configuration Options dialog (Alt+Shift+C). > >Another approach to hearing indentation levels is a JAWS sound scheme >contributed by Jim Homme. You can install it by pressing JAWSKey+F2 and >choosing Settings Packager. In that program, press Control+O and enter >Sounds4Stuff.zip. Then press Alt+I to import the settings. > >The JAWS scripts for EdSharp now include several hotkeys for refining >speech. Press either JAWSKey+I or Windows+` (depending on which is >easier) to toggle announcement of indentation changes. Other combinations >also use the grave accent key, found at the top left of the main part of a >U.S. keyboard. JAWSKey+` toggles between all and no punctuation. >Control+` increases the speech rate by five percent, and Control+Shift+` >decreases it. Alt+` increases the volume by five percent, and Alt+Shift+` >decreases it. > >Considerably improved Unicode support, including display of international >characters. Added the Yield Encoding command (Alt+Shift+Y) to convert all >or selected text according to a particular character encoding. If text >from a file or the clipboard appears to be rendered improperly in EdSharp, >you can tell it to base its interpretation on a different encoding: >ASCII, Latin 1, UTF-7, UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-32, or another encoding that you >specify by its HTML name or code page number. You can also choose a >conversion where the Unicode number of each character is put on a seperate >line. This may be used to identify non-printing characters in the >document. The command replaces all or selected text, so put a copy in a >new document window if you want to retain the original. >---------- > >FileDir 3.5 >http://EmpowermentZone.com/dirsetup.exe > >Fixed the Alternate Menu command (Alt+F10). > >Added the Extract with Regular Expression command, Control+Shift+E. This >is similar to Append to Clipboard, Shift+A, except that you are prompted >for a regular expression, and then only matches in tagged files are copied >to the clipboard. David Andrews and white cane Harry. From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com Thu Dec 25 05:15:15 2008 From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:15:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on this list Message-ID: _________________________________________________________________ It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Thu Dec 25 15:02:25 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 07:02:25 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on this list Message-ID: <20081225150132.MAUX14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Albert Yoo To: Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:15:15 -0500 >Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on this list >_________________________________________________________________ >It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. >http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_a cq_broad1_122008 >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net > From spangler.robert at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 16:18:53 2008 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:18:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <20081224062331.GB8826@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> <49514427.5070208@gmail.com> <20081224062331.GB8826@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4953B26C.20501@gmail.com> I still don't understand how a cane would impeed his career--please expand on that one. I don't feel that it impeeds me at all, so long as I am using it correctly, moving with confidence, and not tripping over everything. Furthermore, how do you appear confident without your cane? To me, you would appear more vulnerable and unable to navigate your surroundings. My cane is something in which I take great pride and feel that it is one of the most important tools that I possess. T. Joseph Carter wrote: > So then, for you it is the appearance of not needing extra help that is > the important factor? I used to have a similar outlook with regards to > intellectual matters. To put it bluntly, sighted people tended to > assume that I was stupid because I was blind when I was younger. The > way I established myself was by being clearly smarter than others around > me. I sincerely hope that you cannot actually imagine what high school > was like for me, with that sort of personality. > > As I continued in my education, I maintained an attitude basically of > contempt for the silly hoops I was being expected to jump through to > demonstrate that I knew what I obviously did. I had few friends. One > day, one who has become one of my most trusted friends said to me, > "Joseph, we all know you're smart. You're absolutely brilliant. So who > are you trying to prove it to?" > > I couldn't answer her then. Today, I know the answer: I was trying to > prove it to myself. I needed to convince myself that I was smart > enough, that I was good enough. I needed legitimacy somehow, because I > had been considered somehow inferior for so long. Far too many people I > would class as complete morons acted like they should be pitying me > because I was so deprived by not being able to see. If anything, they > were the ones who needed pity for not being able to think! Did I > mention I carried a lot of anger and resentment as well? > > You know what the problem was? They were right, I was inferior, and I > knew it. For all of my intellect, I had never had the opportunity to > learn the skills of blindness. I had never really learned how to be > unafraid crossing a busy street I couldn't see the other side of. I > never learned to read Braille. I never even learned how to cook without > fear that I would give myself salmonella or something. > > I accepted these things eventually. I got the training. I accepted > that my success as a graduate student--particularly given the > discrimination I have faced in the program--says all that ever need be > said about my own cognitive ability. It also speaks volumes as to my > newly acquired skills of blindness. > > Put simply, my skills are phenomenal, and growing more so. I am among > the best travel students to come out of the Colorado Center for the > Blind, and I am getting better. I can get anywhere I need to, however I > need to get there, and I know it intuitively. I no longer care about > appearances that I do so because anyone who does not look closely enough > will never see anything but some blind guy. Anyone who looks more > closely than that will see me, a blind guy who can and does go anywhere > and do anything he sets his mind to. > > It's true Governor Patterson does not use a cane, and rightly he > should. It is also true that he depends too much on audio recordings > because he did not learn Braille. Yet parents of blind children have > been forced to admit that the cane would make Governor Patterson look > less confident and probably impede his job. We say that to be blind is > respectable and that the cane is a symbol of that respect, but the > sighted world doesn't agree. > I've had this discussion with sighted friends, and the overall agreement > we have reached is that I appear confident with my cane only because I > appear to be extremely confident without it. The cane subtracts from > apparent confidence in the eyes of the sighted public, and Governor > Patterson doesn't have what it takes to pull it off in his line of > work. So he uses a lot of sighted guide with a somewhat unorthodox > technique that is basically effective and looks good on camera. Good > adaptation on his part. > > As to Braille, there are a lot of people who don't know Braille who are > blind. It would be enough to me for Governor Patterson to say that > Braille is important, literacy is important, and that it would probably > would've been better for him in the long run if he had learned it. He > can't take the time to do so now. > > These are the two things that people have cited on these lists most > often. Others were cited, but have been explained as things an > executive would be expected to pay someone else to do anyway. I'll > forgive his rejection of a cane since it truly would impede his career > (whether I think that's just or not), and I understand the challenge of > learning Braille as an adult because I learned it as one. > > Hopefully my ramblings have helped explain my thinking at least a bit. > > Joseph > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 03:03:51PM -0500, Robert Spangler wrote: >> Hello Mr. Carter, >> >> I do understand that there is a line that must be drawn regarding >> when one may need assistance. As Brice said in a previous message, >> we can't get anywhere without at least some dependence on others and >> I agree with this. even people without disabilities need a hand >> sometimes. I am OK with using public transportation and maybe >> accepting the occasional ride from a sighted counterpart; however, >> that is with the understanding that I do not do it all the time, I am >> not inconveniencing that person, and I have the skills to get from >> point A to point B if that driver weren't present. Public transit >> doesn't count to me because sighted people use that as well. I >> simply try not to seem as though I need more help than the average >> sighted person. sure, I need help with things due to my vision >> impairment, but I try my hardest to keep that to a minimum. I have >> heard many times, and it is a contraversial subject on here, that Mr. >> Paterson is assisted more than he should be and that he is unable to >> perform many tasks that you and I do ourselves independently on a >> daily basis. Yes, you are right in that many politicians pay people >> to do things for them simply because they can afford it and why not >> if they can pay someone to do it? sure I agree with that, but only >> if I am able to perform those chores by myself first would I invest >> in someone to do them for me. >> >> Thanks, >> Robby >> T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>> Brice, >>> >>> It never ceases to amaze me how quickly you see through to the heart >>> of the matter. That's a fine talent and gift you've got, and I am >>> always glad to see the use to which you put it. >>> >>> Let us consider a hypothetical situation: I am in Monmouth, Oregon >>> and I wish to attend a conference in Portland, Oregon. For a >>> sighted person, it is an eighty minute drive, but I am blind and >>> have an "Oregon license to not drive. Ever." (That is a story for >>> another email.) >>> >>> How shall I get there? I can hire a driver. I can take travel >>> using three interconnected public transit systems. I can ask >>> someone for a ride. Or, someone may offer me a ride. >>> >>> Robert seems to suggest that I am not independent unless I can get >>> there without reliance on others. That takes away hiring a driver >>> (i.e., letting an employee provide transportation), and public >>> transit (i.e., letting four different people drive different legs of >>> the trip). >>> >>> That's not a bad definition of independence, but it points out the >>> truth rather clearly: None of us, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is >>> independent. Those sighted people who are driving depend on people >>> to manufacture and maintain the cars they drive, after all. >>> >>> Yet Robert is right that I should be able to make the decision to >>> attend without first asking someone else if they're willing or able >>> to provide me with the means to do it. This is self-determination, >>> and I do not believe a healthy level of independence exists in the >>> absence of it. >>> >>> That said, a healthy level of independence seems to also require >>> that once I have reached self-determination, I am comfortable enough >>> with my own ability to find a way to get there that I can give an >>> appropriate answer when a colleague says, "Hey, I'm going to the >>> same conference, and I live just a few blocks away from you. Can I >>> offer you a ride?" That answer might be, "Thanks for offering, but >>> no, I have a couple of errands to run along the way." Or it might >>> be, "Hey, thanks! I appreciate it!" >>> >>> Could I get there otherwise, absolutely I can. Do I need to prove >>> it? To whom, exactly? And why? >>> >>> Governor Patterson has many aides who do things for him that the rest >>> of us do for ourselves because he pays them to. In that he's like >>> any other politician. Politicians frequently pay people to drive >>> for them, do their laundry, clean up their houses, read their mail, >>> and the list goes on. They could do these things, but that would >>> mean less time for being a politician. Some of the things Governor >>> Patterson's aides do are different than what other governors' aides >>> do, but they're no more and no less than the things others have done >>> for them. >>> >>> Could Governor Patterson do these things for himself if he were no >>> longer in office with aides to help him with everything? Possibly >>> he'd have to learn how to do some of them--remember that President >>> Clinton had to learn how to use an ATM after he left office. Maybe >>> the ATMs are more complex for politicians, though. I mean, I use one >>> and it asks me Checking or Savings.. He probably gets asked to >>> choose Hard Money, Soft Money, etc. *grin* >>> >>> If the governor wants to make a decision, do you think he's got to >>> go around and ask people if they can do it for him? I suspect he >>> just makes it, and calls someone to ask them to arrange the details, >>> just as any other executive would. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:27:17PM -0500, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> Robert, >>>> >>>> So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do >>>> something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, >>>> If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a >>>> difference and is worthless. >>>> >>>> I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out >>>> philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are >>>> going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this >>>> doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of >>>> things: >>>> >>>> If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any >>>> other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're >>>> going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be >>>> sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to >>>> your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of >>>> helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for >>>> the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If >>>> he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives >>>> from the people around him might not change. The same goes for >>>> Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other >>>> governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly >>>> assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires >>>> to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who >>>> would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly >>>> have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would >>>> want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without >>>> being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. >>>> >>>> But what difference does it make? >>>> >>>> -Brice >>>> >>>> On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor >>>>> and >>>>> all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely >>>>> based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, >>>>> but if >>>>> someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what >>>>> difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing >>>>> my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be >>>>> proud of >>>>> myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted >>>>> person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide >>>>> me down the street. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>> Robert, >>>>>> >>>>>> ": >>>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >>>>>> >>>>>> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor >>>>>> Paterson is >>>>>> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >>>>>> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >>>>>> Hofstra University School of Law. >>>>>> >>>>>> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >>>>>> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >>>>>> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >>>>>> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >>>>>> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >>>>>> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >>>>>> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of >>>>>> him? >>>>>> >>>>>> -Brice >>>>>> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>>>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making >>>>>>> fun of >>>>>>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>>>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi Carrie, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I >>>>>>>> will not >>>>>>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience >>>>>>>> shows that >>>>>>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>>>>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not >>>>>>>> choose our >>>>>>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents >>>>>>>> lacked the >>>>>>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher >>>>>>>> showed >>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My >>>>>>>> parents did >>>>>>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with >>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to >>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young >>>>>>>> child >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link >>>>>>>> to see >>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be >>>>>>>> forgotten. >>>>>>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is >>>>>>>> made >>>>>>>> fun >>>>>>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the >>>>>>>> clip. But >>>>>>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to >>>>>>>> change and >>>>>>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> defensive about media clips. >>>>>>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>>>>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was >>>>>>>> picked up by >>>>>>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I >>>>>>>>> never said >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are >>>>>>>>> tough go >>>>>>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be >>>>>>>>> theirs. >>>>>>>>> My >>>>>>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide >>>>>>>>> variety >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>>>>>> decades >>>>>>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>>>>>> over-all >>>>>>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have >>>>>>>>> had the >>>>>>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it >>>>>>>>> back, and >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it >>>>>>>>> totally back >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along >>>>>>>>> as best >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general >>>>>>>>> never had >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>>>>>> belief >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do >>>>>>>>> achieve >>>>>>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And I basically agree that a person's >>>>>>>>> choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>>>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all >>>>>>>>> choices are >>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and >>>>>>>>> supports or >>>>>>>>> levels >>>>>>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to >>>>>>>>> come back. >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that >>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your >>>>>>>>> earlier >>>>>>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, >>>>>>>>> and do >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility >>>>>>>>> yet I am >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person >>>>>>>>> who can >>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>>>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person >>>>>>>>> seemingly can >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level >>>>>>>>> dependency, and a >>>>>>>>> lack >>>>>>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that >>>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or >>>>>>>>> circumstances >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind >>>>>>>>> people are >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with >>>>>>>>> isolation in >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple >>>>>>>>> forms even >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected >>>>>>>>> anything of >>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>>>>>> themselves. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility >>>>>>>>> overall or >>>>>>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a >>>>>>>>> deep faith >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>>>>>> challenges >>>>>>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say >>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I >>>>>>>>> see a lot >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong >>>>>>>>> in many >>>>>>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally >>>>>>>>> changing >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>>>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>>>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it >>>>>>>>> means to >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> blind. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>>>>>> misconceptions >>>>>>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>>>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of >>>>>>>>> access, >>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as >>>>>>>>> a group >>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right >>>>>>>>> for us to >>>>>>>>> come >>>>>>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and >>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside >>>>>>>>> and to >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one >>>>>>>>> does not >>>>>>>>> exclude >>>>>>>>> the other. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be >>>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>>>>>> lofty. >>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>>>>>> relative's >>>>>>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the >>>>>>>>> world may >>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I >>>>>>>>> want people >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>>>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain >>>>>>>>> if they >>>>>>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves >>>>>>>>> setting a >>>>>>>>> goal, >>>>>>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their >>>>>>>>> direction. Yet, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, >>>>>>>>> and if >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really >>>>>>>>> meant to >>>>>>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and >>>>>>>>> disappointments, >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those >>>>>>>>> obstacles. It >>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built >>>>>>>>> entirely alone. >>>>>>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another >>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will >>>>>>>>> help >>>>>>>>> fuel >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will >>>>>>>>> guarantee >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>>>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. >>>>>>>>> By your >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views >>>>>>>>> others may >>>>>>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence >>>>>>>>> that would >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>>>>>> arguments >>>>>>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the >>>>>>>>> middle >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>>>>>> States >>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of >>>>>>>>> opportunities >>>>>>>>> enjoyed >>>>>>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts >>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come >>>>>>>>> along too >>>>>>>>> far >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and >>>>>>>>> forced to >>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex >>>>>>>>> trafficking >>>>>>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is >>>>>>>>> the victim >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. >>>>>>>>> Is it >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>>>>>> circumstances? >>>>>>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not >>>>>>>>> enough on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather >>>>>>>>> ponder the >>>>>>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of >>>>>>>>> human >>>>>>>>> nature, >>>>>>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a >>>>>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>> crash. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be >>>>>>>>> tough, but >>>>>>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter >>>>>>>>> of what >>>>>>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would >>>>>>>>> argue >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the >>>>>>>>> attendance >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this >>>>>>>>> hard core >>>>>>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere >>>>>>>>> may be >>>>>>>>> good, >>>>>>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference >>>>>>>>> between that >>>>>>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> venture >>>>>>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic >>>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the >>>>>>>>> "workability of >>>>>>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's >>>>>>>>> limitations are >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> held >>>>>>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>>>>>> hypothesis >>>>>>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as >>>>>>>>> responsibility? >>>>>>>>> To >>>>>>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>>>>>> environment >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a >>>>>>>>> position may >>>>>>>>> sit >>>>>>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so >>>>>>>>> much a >>>>>>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>>>>>> defensive >>>>>>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an >>>>>>>>> uninformed >>>>>>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>>>>>> delicate >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only >>>>>>>>> legitimized the >>>>>>>>> show's >>>>>>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the >>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of >>>>>>>>> whether or >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted >>>>>>>>> himself in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show >>>>>>>>> using >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative >>>>>>>>> techniques >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, >>>>>>>>> so is it >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and >>>>>>>>> educational >>>>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a >>>>>>>>> better use >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that >>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in >>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, >>>>>>>>> yet for >>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged >>>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in >>>>>>>>> my hair. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then >>>>>>>>> how you >>>>>>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and >>>>>>>>> flaws >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or >>>>>>>>> limits the >>>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain >>>>>>>>> kind of job >>>>>>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he >>>>>>>>> wished >>>>>>>>> despite >>>>>>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the >>>>>>>>> level of >>>>>>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>>>>>> reality >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier >>>>>>>>> mentoring, inborn >>>>>>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible >>>>>>>>> supports. We >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>>>>>> fantasy >>>>>>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>>>>>> becomes a >>>>>>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>>>>>> choosing. I >>>>>>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't >>>>>>>>> black and >>>>>>>>> white >>>>>>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum >>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now >>>>>>>>> powerless >>>>>>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the >>>>>>>>> reality he >>>>>>>>> did. >>>>>>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>>>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of >>>>>>>>> unemployment >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>>>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In >>>>>>>>> fact I am >>>>>>>>> full >>>>>>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than >>>>>>>>> ever before >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> history. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition >>>>>>>>> also takes >>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, >>>>>>>>> victims >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are >>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. >>>>>>>>> If you >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly >>>>>>>>> because they >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is >>>>>>>>> discrimination >>>>>>>>> born >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a >>>>>>>>> distaste for >>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. >>>>>>>>> Blind >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The >>>>>>>>> comparison I >>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as >>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> blind people. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having >>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. >>>>>>>>> That is not >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>>>>>> ability, >>>>>>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality >>>>>>>>> training >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>>>>>> potential >>>>>>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those >>>>>>>>> whose >>>>>>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind >>>>>>>>> people who >>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise >>>>>>>>> above >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. >>>>>>>>> They need >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and >>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the >>>>>>>>> perceived easy >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use >>>>>>>>> it for >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up >>>>>>>>> or seem >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> around. >>>>>>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each >>>>>>>>> of them >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never >>>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as >>>>>>>>> someone who >>>>>>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the >>>>>>>>> workability >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>>>>>> misunderstanding >>>>>>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. >>>>>>>>> I don't >>>>>>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the >>>>>>>>> world, but >>>>>>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and >>>>>>>>> laughed >>>>>>>>> along >>>>>>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently >>>>>>>>> don't) then >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than >>>>>>>>> with. To >>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the >>>>>>>>> population of >>>>>>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something >>>>>>>>> could lead >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing >>>>>>>>> and gives >>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>>> and bright. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh >>>>>>>>> at myself >>>>>>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was >>>>>>>>> done, and >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I >>>>>>>>> don't think >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this >>>>>>>>> way. I >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no >>>>>>>>> creativity (it >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun >>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or >>>>>>>>> trip and >>>>>>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I >>>>>>>>> think they >>>>>>>>> pulled >>>>>>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't >>>>>>>>> know how >>>>>>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot >>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>> little? >>>>>>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of >>>>>>>>> skills, how >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised >>>>>>>>> to "not >>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know >>>>>>>>> either. I >>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically >>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled >>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>> cane >>>>>>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at >>>>>>>>> 350 words >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that >>>>>>>>> they would >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted >>>>>>>>> people do >>>>>>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> justice >>>>>>>>> super blind character. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of >>>>>>>>> Shrek >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to >>>>>>>>> face the >>>>>>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost >>>>>>>>> a lot >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family >>>>>>>>> is, and >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy >>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>>>>>> generation. >>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw >>>>>>>>> because the >>>>>>>>> truth >>>>>>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw >>>>>>>>> but are >>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor >>>>>>>>> means I or >>>>>>>>> others >>>>>>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go >>>>>>>>> along or >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>>>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>>>>>> correctness >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you >>>>>>>>> place >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet >>>>>>>>> fully >>>>>>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued >>>>>>>>> butt of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not >>>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>>>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind >>>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who >>>>>>>>> don't are >>>>>>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if >>>>>>>>> young >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab >>>>>>>>> counselors >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little >>>>>>>>> gumption >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be >>>>>>>>> having >>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>>>>>> simple >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>>>> terrible >>>>>>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, >>>>>>>>> let's use >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> it..." >>>>>>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>>>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly >>>>>>>>> portray >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it >>>>>>>>> as you >>>>>>>>> say. >>>>>>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact >>>>>>>>> create their >>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, >>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this >>>>>>>>> extreme >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>>>>>> general. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>>>>>> expectation. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>>>>>> socioeconomic >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. >>>>>>>>> There >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the >>>>>>>>> reality you >>>>>>>>> choose >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used >>>>>>>>> "environment" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy >>>>>>>>> task, but >>>>>>>>> then, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in >>>>>>>>> rehab to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of >>>>>>>>> technology and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and >>>>>>>>> slavery are >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind >>>>>>>>> people may >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they >>>>>>>>> have never >>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as >>>>>>>>> commodities. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced >>>>>>>>> their own >>>>>>>>> set >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison >>>>>>>>> between the >>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and the orange. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>>>>>> slaves. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is >>>>>>>>> meant to >>>>>>>>> recall >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated >>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. >>>>>>>>> People >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you >>>>>>>>> want their >>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>>>>>> Hispanic >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive >>>>>>>>> by the >>>>>>>>> party >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic >>>>>>>>> hosting the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> party in the first place. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on >>>>>>>>> stereotypes? >>>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's >>>>>>>>> fire. Enough >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the >>>>>>>>> jokes >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe >>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but >>>>>>>>> to lend >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>>>>>> targeted >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to >>>>>>>>> surpass that >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at >>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>>>>>> depressed >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as >>>>>>>>> well laugh >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your >>>>>>>>> generation may >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one >>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>>>>>> sarcastic >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> existence. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just >>>>>>>>> maybe, there >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less >>>>>>>>> refusal to >>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about >>>>>>>>> JAWS...I >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do >>>>>>>>> with career >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> aspirations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? >>>>>>>>> One has >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we >>>>>>>>> have not >>>>>>>>> yet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of >>>>>>>>> both. Never >>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily >>>>>>>>> forgotten >>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>>>>>> training, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. >>>>>>>>> The NFB is >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population >>>>>>>>> of blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than >>>>>>>>> we were >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in >>>>>>>>> a few >>>>>>>>> days, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible >>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the >>>>>>>>> strength >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The >>>>>>>>> world >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>>>>>> release. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't >>>>>>>>> think that >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, >>>>>>>>> yes once >>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person >>>>>>>>> who grew >>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone >>>>>>>>> who grew >>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to >>>>>>>>> travel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille >>>>>>>>> (or any) >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> become a good reader. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old >>>>>>>>> reality. >>>>>>>>> Black >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black >>>>>>>>> people often >>>>>>>>> cut >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness >>>>>>>>> in order >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity >>>>>>>>> then that >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but >>>>>>>>> whites >>>>>>>>> came >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of >>>>>>>>> surviving >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of >>>>>>>>> blacks? Is >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic >>>>>>>>> basis >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blacks? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>>>>>> asylums, >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered >>>>>>>>> workshops, and >>>>>>>>> today >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the >>>>>>>>> stereotypes due >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this >>>>>>>>> treatment, but >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of >>>>>>>>> function or >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. >>>>>>>>> Lives are >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>>>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The >>>>>>>>> word f**k >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, >>>>>>>>> call it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of >>>>>>>>> a deep >>>>>>>>> sense >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling >>>>>>>>> themselves by a >>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>>>>>> nigger. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the >>>>>>>>> names >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. >>>>>>>>> When the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>>>>>> denial >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well >>>>>>>>> c'mon that >>>>>>>>> joke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come >>>>>>>>> up with >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>>>>>> stretching >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>>>>>> eyesight--when >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that >>>>>>>>> joke does >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the >>>>>>>>> least. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able >>>>>>>>> to like >>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old >>>>>>>>> stereotype--if you >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one >>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division >>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> told >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>>>>>> encouragement, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A >>>>>>>>> vast number >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>>>>>> socialization >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to >>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative >>>>>>>>> techniques to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real >>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David >>>>>>>>> Patersons >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because television >>>>>>>>> mocked >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling >>>>>>>>> blind man >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not >>>>>>>>> agree that >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>>>>>> themselves? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. >>>>>>>>> I'll bet >>>>>>>>> South >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an >>>>>>>>> outrage. Yet >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan >>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and >>>>>>>>> colors >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>>>>>> attempt >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah >>>>>>>>> Palin's >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are >>>>>>>>> shown to be >>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> than perfect. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according >>>>>>>>> to visual >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we >>>>>>>>> are just >>>>>>>>> human, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>>>>>> Somehow >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to >>>>>>>>> laugh at >>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other >>>>>>>>> blindies, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time >>>>>>>>> to look >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> days. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use >>>>>>>>> a cane >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a >>>>>>>>> sighted >>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't >>>>>>>>> work. It is >>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that >>>>>>>>> this was >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised >>>>>>>>> "looking >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>>>>>> ironic >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most >>>>>>>>> stereotypical way >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. >>>>>>>>> It also >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual >>>>>>>>> techniques. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a >>>>>>>>> stereotypical >>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon >>>>>>>>> eating >>>>>>>>> scene >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the >>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>> outcry >>>>>>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>>>>>> reality-- >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just >>>>>>>>> one more >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every >>>>>>>>> portrayal >>>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>>>>>> portrayal) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division >>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is >>>>>>>>>> hurtful >>>>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did >>>>>>>>>> they have >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in >>>>>>>>>> the way >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him >>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press >>>>>>>>>> release? ... >>>>>>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor >>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal >>>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve >>>>>>>>>> those for >>>>>>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real >>>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers >>>>>>>>>> thought blind >>>>>>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>>>>>> show. >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also >>>>>>>>>>> have an >>>>>>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>>>>>> NY Times: > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link >>>>>>>>>>> below >>>>>>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the >>>>>>>>>>> number 2 >>>>>>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the >>>>>>>>>>> comments that >>>>>>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info >>>>>>>>>>>> concerning >>>>>>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely >>>>>>>>>>>> helpful to >>>>>>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at >>>>>>>>>>>> blindness, or >>>>>>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, >>>>>>>>>>>> certain >>>>>>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps >>>>>>>>>>>> heighten >>>>>>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I >>>>>>>>>>>> said what >>>>>>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this >>>>>>>>>>>>> segment of >>>>>>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I >>>>>>>>>>>>> want to >>>>>>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paerson for >>>>>>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness >>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> befuddled is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> remains at 70 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Governor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost >>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> seniors, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>> account info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ronto.ca >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Dec 25 19:39:35 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:39:35 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Message-ID: <7666209.1230233976288.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi, Well to me a cane makes me look more confident and I take pride as well. But remember that to Gov Patterson and many others its different. To him maybe he is more confident to go sighted guide. Many low vision people never develop confidence or comfort with a cane because they were not taught it or reject it relying on vision that is inadquate. There are many reasons. Yes I can see why a cane would impede a high ranking person's career though like a politician. This is because you stand out a lot. Officials may be so focused on the cane and not everything else about him. Sadly some of the public are scared of those who carry canes. It is not respectable to them. To us it is. I was lucky that although I have some usable vision, I learned to use a cane in elementary school. Many vision impaired kids don't. Now go celebrate or just enjoy the day off! Ashley -----Original Message----- >From: Robert Spangler >Sent: Dec 25, 2008 11:18 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment > >I still don't understand how a cane would impeed his career--please >expand on that one. I don't feel that it impeeds me at all, so long as >I am using it correctly, moving with confidence, and not tripping over >everything. Furthermore, how do you appear confident without your cane? > To me, you would appear more vulnerable and unable to navigate your >surroundings. My cane is something in which I take great pride and feel >that it is one of the most important tools that I possess. > > >T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> So then, for you it is the appearance of not needing extra help that is >> the important factor? I used to have a similar outlook with regards to >> intellectual matters. To put it bluntly, sighted people tended to >> assume that I was stupid because I was blind when I was younger. The >> way I established myself was by being clearly smarter than others around >> me. I sincerely hope that you cannot actually imagine what high school >> was like for me, with that sort of personality. >> >> As I continued in my education, I maintained an attitude basically of >> contempt for the silly hoops I was being expected to jump through to >> demonstrate that I knew what I obviously did. I had few friends. One >> day, one who has become one of my most trusted friends said to me, >> "Joseph, we all know you're smart. You're absolutely brilliant. So who >> are you trying to prove it to?" >> >> I couldn't answer her then. Today, I know the answer: I was trying to >> prove it to myself. I needed to convince myself that I was smart >> enough, that I was good enough. I needed legitimacy somehow, because I >> had been considered somehow inferior for so long. Far too many people I >> would class as complete morons acted like they should be pitying me >> because I was so deprived by not being able to see. If anything, they >> were the ones who needed pity for not being able to think! Did I >> mention I carried a lot of anger and resentment as well? >> >> You know what the problem was? They were right, I was inferior, and I >> knew it. For all of my intellect, I had never had the opportunity to >> learn the skills of blindness. I had never really learned how to be >> unafraid crossing a busy street I couldn't see the other side of. I >> never learned to read Braille. I never even learned how to cook without >> fear that I would give myself salmonella or something. >> >> I accepted these things eventually. I got the training. I accepted >> that my success as a graduate student--particularly given the >> discrimination I have faced in the program--says all that ever need be >> said about my own cognitive ability. It also speaks volumes as to my >> newly acquired skills of blindness. >> >> Put simply, my skills are phenomenal, and growing more so. I am among >> the best travel students to come out of the Colorado Center for the >> Blind, and I am getting better. I can get anywhere I need to, however I >> need to get there, and I know it intuitively. I no longer care about >> appearances that I do so because anyone who does not look closely enough >> will never see anything but some blind guy. Anyone who looks more >> closely than that will see me, a blind guy who can and does go anywhere >> and do anything he sets his mind to. >> >> It's true Governor Patterson does not use a cane, and rightly he >> should. It is also true that he depends too much on audio recordings >> because he did not learn Braille. Yet parents of blind children have >> been forced to admit that the cane would make Governor Patterson look >> less confident and probably impede his job. We say that to be blind is >> respectable and that the cane is a symbol of that respect, but the >> sighted world doesn't agree. >> I've had this discussion with sighted friends, and the overall agreement >> we have reached is that I appear confident with my cane only because I >> appear to be extremely confident without it. The cane subtracts from >> apparent confidence in the eyes of the sighted public, and Governor >> Patterson doesn't have what it takes to pull it off in his line of >> work. So he uses a lot of sighted guide with a somewhat unorthodox >> technique that is basically effective and looks good on camera. Good >> adaptation on his part. >> >> As to Braille, there are a lot of people who don't know Braille who are >> blind. It would be enough to me for Governor Patterson to say that >> Braille is important, literacy is important, and that it would probably >> would've been better for him in the long run if he had learned it. He >> can't take the time to do so now. >> >> These are the two things that people have cited on these lists most >> often. Others were cited, but have been explained as things an >> executive would be expected to pay someone else to do anyway. I'll >> forgive his rejection of a cane since it truly would impede his career >> (whether I think that's just or not), and I understand the challenge of >> learning Braille as an adult because I learned it as one. >> >> Hopefully my ramblings have helped explain my thinking at least a bit. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 03:03:51PM -0500, Robert Spangler wrote: >>> Hello Mr. Carter, >>> >>> I do understand that there is a line that must be drawn regarding >>> when one may need assistance. As Brice said in a previous message, >>> we can't get anywhere without at least some dependence on others and >>> I agree with this. even people without disabilities need a hand >>> sometimes. I am OK with using public transportation and maybe >>> accepting the occasional ride from a sighted counterpart; however, >>> that is with the understanding that I do not do it all the time, I am >>> not inconveniencing that person, and I have the skills to get from >>> point A to point B if that driver weren't present. Public transit >>> doesn't count to me because sighted people use that as well. I >>> simply try not to seem as though I need more help than the average >>> sighted person. sure, I need help with things due to my vision >>> impairment, but I try my hardest to keep that to a minimum. I have >>> heard many times, and it is a contraversial subject on here, that Mr. >>> Paterson is assisted more than he should be and that he is unable to >>> perform many tasks that you and I do ourselves independently on a >>> daily basis. Yes, you are right in that many politicians pay people >>> to do things for them simply because they can afford it and why not >>> if they can pay someone to do it? sure I agree with that, but only >>> if I am able to perform those chores by myself first would I invest >>> in someone to do them for me. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Robby >>> T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>>> Brice, >>>> >>>> It never ceases to amaze me how quickly you see through to the heart >>>> of the matter. That's a fine talent and gift you've got, and I am >>>> always glad to see the use to which you put it. >>>> >>>> Let us consider a hypothetical situation: I am in Monmouth, Oregon >>>> and I wish to attend a conference in Portland, Oregon. For a >>>> sighted person, it is an eighty minute drive, but I am blind and >>>> have an "Oregon license to not drive. Ever." (That is a story for >>>> another email.) >>>> >>>> How shall I get there? I can hire a driver. I can take travel >>>> using three interconnected public transit systems. I can ask >>>> someone for a ride. Or, someone may offer me a ride. >>>> >>>> Robert seems to suggest that I am not independent unless I can get >>>> there without reliance on others. That takes away hiring a driver >>>> (i.e., letting an employee provide transportation), and public >>>> transit (i.e., letting four different people drive different legs of >>>> the trip). >>>> >>>> That's not a bad definition of independence, but it points out the >>>> truth rather clearly: None of us, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is >>>> independent. Those sighted people who are driving depend on people >>>> to manufacture and maintain the cars they drive, after all. >>>> >>>> Yet Robert is right that I should be able to make the decision to >>>> attend without first asking someone else if they're willing or able >>>> to provide me with the means to do it. This is self-determination, >>>> and I do not believe a healthy level of independence exists in the >>>> absence of it. >>>> >>>> That said, a healthy level of independence seems to also require >>>> that once I have reached self-determination, I am comfortable enough >>>> with my own ability to find a way to get there that I can give an >>>> appropriate answer when a colleague says, "Hey, I'm going to the >>>> same conference, and I live just a few blocks away from you. Can I >>>> offer you a ride?" That answer might be, "Thanks for offering, but >>>> no, I have a couple of errands to run along the way." Or it might >>>> be, "Hey, thanks! I appreciate it!" >>>> >>>> Could I get there otherwise, absolutely I can. Do I need to prove >>>> it? To whom, exactly? And why? >>>> >>>> Governor Patterson has many aides who do things for him that the rest >>>> of us do for ourselves because he pays them to. In that he's like >>>> any other politician. Politicians frequently pay people to drive >>>> for them, do their laundry, clean up their houses, read their mail, >>>> and the list goes on. They could do these things, but that would >>>> mean less time for being a politician. Some of the things Governor >>>> Patterson's aides do are different than what other governors' aides >>>> do, but they're no more and no less than the things others have done >>>> for them. >>>> >>>> Could Governor Patterson do these things for himself if he were no >>>> longer in office with aides to help him with everything? Possibly >>>> he'd have to learn how to do some of them--remember that President >>>> Clinton had to learn how to use an ATM after he left office. Maybe >>>> the ATMs are more complex for politicians, though. I mean, I use one >>>> and it asks me Checking or Savings.. He probably gets asked to >>>> choose Hard Money, Soft Money, etc. *grin* >>>> >>>> If the governor wants to make a decision, do you think he's got to >>>> go around and ask people if they can do it for him? I suspect he >>>> just makes it, and calls someone to ask them to arrange the details, >>>> just as any other executive would. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:27:17PM -0500, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Robert, >>>>> >>>>> So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do >>>>> something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, >>>>> If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a >>>>> difference and is worthless. >>>>> >>>>> I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out >>>>> philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are >>>>> going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this >>>>> doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of >>>>> things: >>>>> >>>>> If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any >>>>> other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're >>>>> going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be >>>>> sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to >>>>> your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of >>>>> helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for >>>>> the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If >>>>> he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives >>>>> from the people around him might not change. The same goes for >>>>> Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other >>>>> governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly >>>>> assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires >>>>> to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who >>>>> would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly >>>>> have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would >>>>> want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without >>>>> being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. >>>>> >>>>> But what difference does it make? >>>>> >>>>> -Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>>> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming governor >>>>>> and >>>>>> all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely >>>>>> based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this success, >>>>>> but if >>>>>> someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what >>>>>> difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing >>>>>> my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be >>>>>> proud of >>>>>> myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted >>>>>> person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide >>>>>> me down the street. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Robert, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ": >>>>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor >>>>>>> Paterson is >>>>>>> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >>>>>>> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >>>>>>> Hofstra University School of Law. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >>>>>>> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >>>>>>> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >>>>>>> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. Frankly, >>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >>>>>>> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >>>>>>> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >>>>>>> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making fun of >>>>>>> him? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Brice >>>>>>> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>>>>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and making >>>>>>>> fun of >>>>>>>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>>>>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi Carrie, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and Joe. I >>>>>>>>> will not >>>>>>>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal experience >>>>>>>>> shows that >>>>>>>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>>>>>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal opportunity >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do not >>>>>>>>> choose our >>>>>>>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My parents >>>>>>>>> lacked the >>>>>>>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab teacher >>>>>>>>> showed >>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. My >>>>>>>>> parents did >>>>>>>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me and with >>>>>>>>> me, >>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was fortunate to >>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A young >>>>>>>>> child >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a link >>>>>>>>> to see >>>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will be >>>>>>>>> forgotten. >>>>>>>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's speech is >>>>>>>>> made >>>>>>>>> fun >>>>>>>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing the >>>>>>>>> clip. But >>>>>>>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more to >>>>>>>>> change and >>>>>>>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things rather >>>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> defensive about media clips. >>>>>>>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>>>>>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it was >>>>>>>>> picked up by >>>>>>>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of communication. I >>>>>>>>>> never said >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind people are >>>>>>>>>> tough go >>>>>>>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the world can be >>>>>>>>>> theirs. >>>>>>>>>> My >>>>>>>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience with a wide >>>>>>>>>> variety >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>>>>>>> decades >>>>>>>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>>>>>>> over-all >>>>>>>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that many have >>>>>>>>>> had the >>>>>>>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to get it >>>>>>>>>> back, and >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get it >>>>>>>>>> totally back >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are coming along >>>>>>>>>> as best >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in general >>>>>>>>>> never had >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>>>>>>> belief >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise up and do >>>>>>>>>> achieve >>>>>>>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And I basically agree that a person's >>>>>>>>>> choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>>>>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not all >>>>>>>>>> choices are >>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources and >>>>>>>>>> supports or >>>>>>>>>> levels >>>>>>>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of things to >>>>>>>>>> come back. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and that >>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one of your >>>>>>>>>> earlier >>>>>>>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge failures >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>>>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>>>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own making, >>>>>>>>>> and do >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, they may >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal responsibility >>>>>>>>>> yet I am >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the rare person >>>>>>>>>> who can >>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>>>>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each person >>>>>>>>>> seemingly can >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level >>>>>>>>>> dependency, and a >>>>>>>>>> lack >>>>>>>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have challenges that >>>>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families or >>>>>>>>>> circumstances >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that blind >>>>>>>>>> people are >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with >>>>>>>>>> isolation in >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take multiple >>>>>>>>>> forms even >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting things >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally unique, >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected >>>>>>>>>> anything of >>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>>>>>>> themselves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal responsibility >>>>>>>>>> overall or >>>>>>>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I have a >>>>>>>>>> deep faith >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>>>>>>> challenges >>>>>>>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental side to say >>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. Because I >>>>>>>>>> see a lot >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right and wrong >>>>>>>>>> in many >>>>>>>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world totally >>>>>>>>>> changing >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>>>>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>>>>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of what it >>>>>>>>>> means to >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> blind. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>>>>>>> misconceptions >>>>>>>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>>>>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, lack of >>>>>>>>>> access, >>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or ourselves as >>>>>>>>>> a group >>>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was right >>>>>>>>>> for us to >>>>>>>>>> come >>>>>>>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as true and >>>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the inside >>>>>>>>>> and to >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing one >>>>>>>>>> does not >>>>>>>>>> exclude >>>>>>>>>> the other. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be fun to be >>>>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>>>>>>> lofty. >>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>>>>>>> relative's >>>>>>>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well portray the >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, the >>>>>>>>>> world may >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so yes, I >>>>>>>>>> want people >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>>>>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a mountain >>>>>>>>>> if they >>>>>>>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find themselves >>>>>>>>>> setting a >>>>>>>>>> goal, >>>>>>>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their >>>>>>>>>> direction. Yet, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of achieving it, >>>>>>>>>> and if >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing it, the >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never really >>>>>>>>>> meant to >>>>>>>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and >>>>>>>>>> disappointments, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those >>>>>>>>>> obstacles. It >>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built >>>>>>>>>> entirely alone. >>>>>>>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder another >>>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient guidance will >>>>>>>>>> help >>>>>>>>>> fuel >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter will >>>>>>>>>> guarantee >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>>>>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly certainly >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will grow. >>>>>>>>>> By your >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own reality, >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the views >>>>>>>>>> others may >>>>>>>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the existence >>>>>>>>>> that would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>>>>>>> arguments >>>>>>>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried out in the >>>>>>>>>> middle >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>>>>>>> States >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of >>>>>>>>>> opportunities >>>>>>>>>> enjoyed >>>>>>>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most other parts >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have come >>>>>>>>>> along too >>>>>>>>>> far >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed and >>>>>>>>>> forced to >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from sex >>>>>>>>>> trafficking >>>>>>>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence simply >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual who is >>>>>>>>>> the victim >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite obvious that >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair treatment. >>>>>>>>>> Is it >>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>>>>>>> circumstances? >>>>>>>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings and not >>>>>>>>>> enough on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would rather >>>>>>>>>> ponder the >>>>>>>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural flaw of >>>>>>>>>> human >>>>>>>>>> nature, >>>>>>>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming gravity for a >>>>>>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>> crash. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. What I >>>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people to be >>>>>>>>>> tough, but >>>>>>>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the matter >>>>>>>>>> of what >>>>>>>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core Federationist would >>>>>>>>>> argue >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through the >>>>>>>>>> attendance >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few exceptions, this >>>>>>>>>> hard core >>>>>>>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this sphere >>>>>>>>>> may be >>>>>>>>>> good, >>>>>>>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a difference >>>>>>>>>> between that >>>>>>>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high expectations? I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> venture >>>>>>>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the diplomatic >>>>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the >>>>>>>>>> "workability of >>>>>>>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's >>>>>>>>>> limitations are >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the blind >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> held >>>>>>>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis >>>>>>>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as >>>>>>>>>> responsibility? >>>>>>>>>> To >>>>>>>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>>>>>>> environment >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such a >>>>>>>>>> position may >>>>>>>>>> sit >>>>>>>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show was not so >>>>>>>>>> much a >>>>>>>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>>>>>>> defensive >>>>>>>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would lead an >>>>>>>>>> uninformed >>>>>>>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>>>>>>> delicate >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only >>>>>>>>>> legitimized the >>>>>>>>>> show's >>>>>>>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given to the >>>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious question of >>>>>>>>>> whether or >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor conducted >>>>>>>>>> himself in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of a show >>>>>>>>>> using >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the alternative >>>>>>>>>> techniques >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring for SNL, >>>>>>>>>> so is it >>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured on SNL >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how would you >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and >>>>>>>>>> educational >>>>>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest as a >>>>>>>>>> better use >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind people...that >>>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not interested in >>>>>>>>>> reading. >>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my thoughts, >>>>>>>>>> yet for >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I have aged >>>>>>>>>> I have >>>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey including in >>>>>>>>>> my hair. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you and then >>>>>>>>>> how you >>>>>>>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your abilities and >>>>>>>>>> flaws >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects or >>>>>>>>>> limits the >>>>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other people force >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a certain >>>>>>>>>> kind of job >>>>>>>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the "reality" he >>>>>>>>>> wished >>>>>>>>>> despite >>>>>>>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of the >>>>>>>>>> level of >>>>>>>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>>>>>>> reality >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times what people >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier >>>>>>>>>> mentoring, inborn >>>>>>>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of possible >>>>>>>>>> supports. We >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>>>>>>> fantasy >>>>>>>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>>>>>>> becomes a >>>>>>>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not totally >>>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>>>>>>> choosing. I >>>>>>>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just isn't >>>>>>>>>> black and >>>>>>>>>> white >>>>>>>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a vacuum >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who are now >>>>>>>>>> powerless >>>>>>>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to experience the >>>>>>>>>> reality he >>>>>>>>>> did. >>>>>>>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>>>>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality of >>>>>>>>>> unemployment >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>>>>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this organization. In >>>>>>>>>> fact I am >>>>>>>>>> full >>>>>>>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther than >>>>>>>>>> ever before >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> history. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. Prohibition >>>>>>>>>> also takes >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been oppressed, >>>>>>>>>> victims >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions you are >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this even today. >>>>>>>>>> If you >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and directly >>>>>>>>>> because they >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is >>>>>>>>>> discrimination >>>>>>>>>> born >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough of a >>>>>>>>>> distaste for >>>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred qualifies. >>>>>>>>>> Blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think happened to the >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. The >>>>>>>>>> comparison I >>>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black people as >>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> blind people. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB as having >>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you say. >>>>>>>>>> That is not >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>>>>>>> ability, >>>>>>>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. Jernigan >>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe quality >>>>>>>>>> training >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>>>>>>> potential >>>>>>>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst those >>>>>>>>>> whose >>>>>>>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also blind >>>>>>>>>> people who >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge to rise >>>>>>>>>> above >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across the U.S. >>>>>>>>>> They need >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but don't and >>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the >>>>>>>>>> perceived easy >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their troubles or use >>>>>>>>>> it for >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have given up >>>>>>>>>> or seem >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing blind >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> around. >>>>>>>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be for each >>>>>>>>>> of them >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who never >>>>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well as >>>>>>>>>> someone who >>>>>>>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. There are >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to the >>>>>>>>>> workability >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>>>>>>> misunderstanding >>>>>>>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever change. >>>>>>>>>> I don't >>>>>>>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change the >>>>>>>>>> world, but >>>>>>>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said nothing and >>>>>>>>>> laughed >>>>>>>>>> along >>>>>>>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many apparently >>>>>>>>>> don't) then >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind rather than >>>>>>>>>> with. To >>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands of things >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within the >>>>>>>>>> population of >>>>>>>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying something >>>>>>>>>> could lead >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches nothing >>>>>>>>>> and gives >>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>>>> and bright. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I laugh >>>>>>>>>> at myself >>>>>>>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way it was >>>>>>>>>> done, and >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the myths. I >>>>>>>>>> don't think >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking fun this >>>>>>>>>> way. I >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no >>>>>>>>>> creativity (it >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves believe >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to make fun >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to fall or >>>>>>>>>> trip and >>>>>>>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in speech and >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the same--I >>>>>>>>>> think they >>>>>>>>>> pulled >>>>>>>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I don't >>>>>>>>>> know how >>>>>>>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than others, a lot >>>>>>>>>> or a >>>>>>>>>> little? >>>>>>>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack of >>>>>>>>>> skills, how >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being raised >>>>>>>>>> to "not >>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL know >>>>>>>>>> either. I >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually specifically >>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been skilled >>>>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>>>> cane >>>>>>>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read Braille at >>>>>>>>>> 350 words >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques that >>>>>>>>>> they would >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. "Skilled" >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like sighted >>>>>>>>>> people do >>>>>>>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him as the >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> justice >>>>>>>>>> super blind character. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at the end of >>>>>>>>>> Shrek >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know enough to >>>>>>>>>> face the >>>>>>>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to have lost >>>>>>>>>> a lot >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, my family >>>>>>>>>> is, and >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a lot of joy >>>>>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>>>>>>> generation. >>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel raw >>>>>>>>>> because the >>>>>>>>>> truth >>>>>>>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised as raw >>>>>>>>>> but are >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without humor >>>>>>>>>> means I or >>>>>>>>>> others >>>>>>>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as we go >>>>>>>>>> along or >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>>>>>>> correctness >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems that you >>>>>>>>>> place >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are not yet >>>>>>>>>> fully >>>>>>>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the continued >>>>>>>>>> butt of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are not >>>>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>>>>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think if these >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if blind >>>>>>>>>> children >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the 90% who >>>>>>>>>> don't are >>>>>>>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach themselves, if >>>>>>>>>> young >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their rehab >>>>>>>>>> counselors >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a little >>>>>>>>>> gumption >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we wouldn't be >>>>>>>>>> having >>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>>>>>>> simple >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>>>>> terrible >>>>>>>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, >>>>>>>>>> let's use >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do something >>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>> it..." >>>>>>>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>>>>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that wrongly >>>>>>>>>> portray >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more about it >>>>>>>>>> as you >>>>>>>>>> say. >>>>>>>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact >>>>>>>>>> create their >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, >>>>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this >>>>>>>>>> extreme >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>>>>>>> general. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>>>>>>> expectation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>>>>>>> socioeconomic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. >>>>>>>>>> There >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the >>>>>>>>>> reality you >>>>>>>>>> choose >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used >>>>>>>>>> "environment" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy >>>>>>>>>> task, but >>>>>>>>>> then, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in >>>>>>>>>> rehab to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of >>>>>>>>>> technology and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and >>>>>>>>>> slavery are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind >>>>>>>>>> people may >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they >>>>>>>>>> have never >>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as >>>>>>>>>> commodities. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced >>>>>>>>>> their own >>>>>>>>>> set >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison >>>>>>>>>> between the >>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and the orange. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>>>>>>> slaves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is >>>>>>>>>> meant to >>>>>>>>>> recall >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were treated >>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. >>>>>>>>>> People >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you >>>>>>>>>> want their >>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>>>>>>> Hispanic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive >>>>>>>>>> by the >>>>>>>>>> party >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic >>>>>>>>>> hosting the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> party in the first place. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on >>>>>>>>>> stereotypes? >>>>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's >>>>>>>>>> fire. Enough >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the >>>>>>>>>> jokes >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe >>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but >>>>>>>>>> to lend >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>>>>>>> targeted >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to >>>>>>>>>> surpass that >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at >>>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>>>>>>> depressed >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as >>>>>>>>>> well laugh >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your >>>>>>>>>> generation may >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>>>>>>> sarcastic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> existence. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just >>>>>>>>>> maybe, there >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less >>>>>>>>>> refusal to >>>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about >>>>>>>>>> JAWS...I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do >>>>>>>>>> with career >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> aspirations. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? >>>>>>>>>> One has >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we >>>>>>>>>> have not >>>>>>>>>> yet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of >>>>>>>>>> both. Never >>>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been easily >>>>>>>>>> forgotten >>>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>>>>>>> training, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. >>>>>>>>>> The NFB is >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population >>>>>>>>>> of blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than >>>>>>>>>> we were >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in >>>>>>>>>> a few >>>>>>>>>> days, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the >>>>>>>>>> strength >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about it. The >>>>>>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>>>>>>> release. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't >>>>>>>>>> think that >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, >>>>>>>>>> yes once >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person >>>>>>>>>> who grew >>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone >>>>>>>>>> who grew >>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to >>>>>>>>>> travel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille >>>>>>>>>> (or any) >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> become a good reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old >>>>>>>>>> reality. >>>>>>>>>> Black >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black >>>>>>>>>> people often >>>>>>>>>> cut >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness >>>>>>>>>> in order >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity >>>>>>>>>> then that >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but >>>>>>>>>> whites >>>>>>>>>> came >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of >>>>>>>>>> surviving >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of >>>>>>>>>> blacks? Is >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic >>>>>>>>>> basis >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blacks? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>>>>>>> asylums, >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered >>>>>>>>>> workshops, and >>>>>>>>>> today >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the >>>>>>>>>> stereotypes due >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this >>>>>>>>>> treatment, but >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of >>>>>>>>>> function or >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. >>>>>>>>>> Lives are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>>>>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The >>>>>>>>>> word f**k >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, >>>>>>>>>> call it >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of >>>>>>>>>> a deep >>>>>>>>>> sense >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling >>>>>>>>>> themselves by a >>>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>>>>>>> nigger. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the >>>>>>>>>> names >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. >>>>>>>>>> When the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>>>>>>> denial >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well >>>>>>>>>> c'mon that >>>>>>>>>> joke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come >>>>>>>>>> up with >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>>>>>>> stretching >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>>>>>>> eyesight--when >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that >>>>>>>>>> joke does >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the >>>>>>>>>> least. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able >>>>>>>>>> to like >>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old >>>>>>>>>> stereotype--if you >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one >>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> told >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>>>>>>> encouragement, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A >>>>>>>>>> vast number >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>>>>>>> socialization >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to >>>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> not they want to receive certain training in alternative >>>>>>>>>> techniques to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David >>>>>>>>>> Patersons >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because television >>>>>>>>>> mocked >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling >>>>>>>>>> blind man >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not >>>>>>>>>> agree that >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>>>>>>> themselves? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. >>>>>>>>>> I'll bet >>>>>>>>>> South >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an >>>>>>>>>> outrage. Yet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan >>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and >>>>>>>>>> colors >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>>>>>>> attempt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah >>>>>>>>>> Palin's >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are >>>>>>>>>> shown to be >>>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> than perfect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according >>>>>>>>>> to visual >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we >>>>>>>>>> are just >>>>>>>>>> human, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>>>>>>> Somehow >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to >>>>>>>>>> laugh at >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other >>>>>>>>>> blindies, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time >>>>>>>>>> to look >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> days. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use >>>>>>>>>> a cane >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a >>>>>>>>>> sighted >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't >>>>>>>>>> work. It is >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that >>>>>>>>>> this was >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised >>>>>>>>>> "looking >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>>>>>>> ironic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical way >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. >>>>>>>>>> It also >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual >>>>>>>>>> techniques. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical >>>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon >>>>>>>>>> eating >>>>>>>>>> scene >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the >>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>> outcry >>>>>>>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>>>>>>> reality-- >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just >>>>>>>>>> one more >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every >>>>>>>>>> portrayal >>>>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>>>>>>> portrayal) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division >>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is >>>>>>>>>>> hurtful >>>>>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>>>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did >>>>>>>>>>> they have >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in >>>>>>>>>>> the way >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him >>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press >>>>>>>>>>> release? ... >>>>>>>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>>>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor >>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal >>>>>>>>>>> amount of >>>>>>>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>>>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>>>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>>>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve >>>>>>>>>>> those for >>>>>>>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts about real >>>>>>>>>>> issues. >>>>>>>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers >>>>>>>>>>> thought blind >>>>>>>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any >>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>>>>>>> show. >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>>>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also >>>>>>>>>>>> have an >>>>>>>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>>>>>>> NY Times: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link >>>>>>>>>>>> below >>>>>>>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the >>>>>>>>>>>> number 2 >>>>>>>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the >>>>>>>>>>>> comments that >>>>>>>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info >>>>>>>>>>>>> concerning >>>>>>>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely >>>>>>>>>>>>> helpful to >>>>>>>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at >>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, >>>>>>>>>>>>> certain >>>>>>>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps >>>>>>>>>>>>> heighten >>>>>>>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I >>>>>>>>>>>>> said what >>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> segment of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paerson for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> befuddled is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remains at 70 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Governor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seniors, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> account info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ronto.ca >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 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>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net Merry Christmas and Happy New Year From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Dec 25 19:41:15 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:41:15 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on this list Message-ID: <25418718.1230234076255.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi, Merry Christmas! Eat lots of turkey and everything. My favorite is my mom's green beans, so tender. -----Original Message----- >From: Albert Yoo >Sent: Dec 25, 2008 12:15 AM >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on this list > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. >http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net Merry Christmas and Happy New Year From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Thu Dec 25 20:25:26 2008 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (hannah) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:25:26 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on thislist Message-ID: <20081225202431.NHVY14508.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Happy holidays to all and have a great Christmas to all who celebrate it. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:41:15 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on thislist >Hi, >Merry Christmas! Eat lots of turkey and everything. My favorite is my mom's green beans, so tender. >-----Original Message----- >>From: Albert Yoo >Sent: Dec 25, 2008 12:15 AM >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on this list >>_________________________________________________________________ >>It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% faster. >>http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_a cq_broad1_122008 >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net >Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 00:28:00 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 19:28:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Division Trivia Message-ID: <5A2F2ECF2EAB4F1485C70113E622E100@MonkeyPaw> 1. In what year was NABS established? 2. Can anyone name the presidents of NABS from its inception through the present? 3. Are there any noteworthy tidbits of NABS history you could identify? If anyone has information on any of these points, let us know. I've been in contact with a few of you but figured a general call might generate more ideas. We're trying to build a comprehensive profile of the division. Any assistance you can provide would be very much appreciated. Thanks in advance, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 00:31:45 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 19:31:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] UnitedHealth Heroes Service-learning Grants Message-ID: To all eligible state divisions: This grant may be of interest to you. If you live in the listed states and have considered engaging a community service project to put your members to work, this may be a worthwhile opportunity. Our office will be announcing another grant opportunity of potential interest to you in January. To learn more visit: www.ysa.org/awards/ Best, Joe Orozco UnitedHealth Heroes Service-Learning Grants: Asking young people to take the lead in solving the most critical health problem facing their generation! (Applicants from selected states in the USA) Youth Service America and UnitedHealthcare are excited to offer the UnitedHealth HEROES service-learning grants, a Global Youth Service Grant (GYSG). More than 200 awards are available for youth-led community education projects. These grants of up to $1,000 support teachers, community-based and school-based service-learning coordinators, and students in the health professions to implement service-learning projects around childhood obesity. The selected projects will engage children and youth ages 5 to 25 in youth-led solutions. We encourage 'Semester of Service' length projects that launch in February, and use Global Youth Service Day (April 24-26, 2009) to bring visibility to their projects. Grants will support projects in Alabama, Arizona, California, Colorado, Indiana, Maryland, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and Tennessee, and in the following specific areas: Florida-selected counties, Illinois-Chicagoland and Peoria; and New York-Long Island, New York City, and Syracuse. Deadline: January 15, 2009. For application materials, visit http://tinyurl.com/UHHeroesGrant . Questions? E-mail: healthheroes at ysa.org YSA improves communities by increasing the number and the diversity of young people, ages 5-25, serving in substantive roles. From amylsabo at comcast.net Fri Dec 26 04:36:11 2008 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 04:36:11 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it on thislist Message-ID: <122620080436.21176.49545F3B0000F158000052B82206999735010D0E9C0497030E@comcast.net> hello all, merry christmas to all and a goodnight! i hope that everyone had a good christmas this year and a happy new year to come! hugs, amy -------------- Original message -------------- From: hannah > Happy holidays to all and have a great Christmas to all who > celebrate it. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net > >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 14:41:15 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates > it on thislist > > >Hi, > > >Merry Christmas! Eat lots of turkey and everything. My favorite > is my mom's green beans, so tender. > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >>From: Albert Yoo > >>Sent: Dec 25, 2008 12:15 AM > >>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>Subject: [nabs-l] Merry Christmas to every one who celebrates it > on this list > > > > >>_________________________________________________________________ > >>It’s the same Hotmail®. If by “same” you mean up to 70% > faster. > >>http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_a > cq_broad1_122008 > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma > hb%40earthlink.net > > > >Merry Christmas and Happy New Year > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli > cious%40suddenlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 09:25:37 2008 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 01:25:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment In-Reply-To: <4953B26C.20501@gmail.com> References: <29574421.1229733438587.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <494D2D08.9050204@gmail.com> <494FC3DF.1080304@gmail.com> <20081223064246.GB3464@yumi.bluecherry.net> <49514427.5070208@gmail.com> <20081224062331.GB8826@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4953B26C.20501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081226092537.GB15184@yumi.bluecherry.net> You take pride in your cane. I take pride in mine. People around us do not, because they do not know that it is respectable to be blind. The cane reminds them that we are blind, and a lot of them just get uncomfortable thinking about it. They get more so when they see us walking with it because they don't understand what we're doing. Sighted people walk around, neatly avoiding obstacles in their way. The way I understand guide dogs to function, it's somewhat similar. We cane users seek out obstacles so that we can use them to keep track of where we are going. To a sighted person who doesn't know that, we're "running right into everything." To them, we aren't very good at getting around because to them, getting around means NOT running into things. Therefore, using a cane and "running into things all the time" would cause sighted people who didn't know any better to question his ability. Of course, the governor could use the opportunity to educate. But not everyone is going to take the time to listen, as we all know. Plus, he's generally a busy guy, how much time can he afford to take to do that? There is also the very real chance that he doesn't want to "look blind" because he thinks people will think less of him. That they actually will may or may not fit into that. Joseph On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 11:18:53AM -0500, Robert Spangler wrote: > I still don't understand how a cane would impeed his career--please > expand on that one. I don't feel that it impeeds me at all, so long as > I am using it correctly, moving with confidence, and not tripping over > everything. Furthermore, how do you appear confident without your cane? > To me, you would appear more vulnerable and unable to navigate your > surroundings. My cane is something in which I take great pride and feel > that it is one of the most important tools that I possess. > > > T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> So then, for you it is the appearance of not needing extra help that is >> the important factor? I used to have a similar outlook with regards to >> intellectual matters. To put it bluntly, sighted people tended to >> assume that I was stupid because I was blind when I was younger. The >> way I established myself was by being clearly smarter than others >> around me. I sincerely hope that you cannot actually imagine what high >> school was like for me, with that sort of personality. >> >> As I continued in my education, I maintained an attitude basically of >> contempt for the silly hoops I was being expected to jump through to >> demonstrate that I knew what I obviously did. I had few friends. One >> day, one who has become one of my most trusted friends said to me, >> "Joseph, we all know you're smart. You're absolutely brilliant. So >> who are you trying to prove it to?" >> >> I couldn't answer her then. Today, I know the answer: I was trying to >> prove it to myself. I needed to convince myself that I was smart >> enough, that I was good enough. I needed legitimacy somehow, because I >> had been considered somehow inferior for so long. Far too many people >> I would class as complete morons acted like they should be pitying me >> because I was so deprived by not being able to see. If anything, they >> were the ones who needed pity for not being able to think! Did I >> mention I carried a lot of anger and resentment as well? >> >> You know what the problem was? They were right, I was inferior, and I >> knew it. For all of my intellect, I had never had the opportunity to >> learn the skills of blindness. I had never really learned how to be >> unafraid crossing a busy street I couldn't see the other side of. I >> never learned to read Braille. I never even learned how to cook >> without fear that I would give myself salmonella or something. >> >> I accepted these things eventually. I got the training. I accepted >> that my success as a graduate student--particularly given the >> discrimination I have faced in the program--says all that ever need be >> said about my own cognitive ability. It also speaks volumes as to my >> newly acquired skills of blindness. >> >> Put simply, my skills are phenomenal, and growing more so. I am among >> the best travel students to come out of the Colorado Center for the >> Blind, and I am getting better. I can get anywhere I need to, however >> I need to get there, and I know it intuitively. I no longer care about >> appearances that I do so because anyone who does not look closely >> enough will never see anything but some blind guy. Anyone who looks >> more closely than that will see me, a blind guy who can and does go >> anywhere and do anything he sets his mind to. >> >> It's true Governor Patterson does not use a cane, and rightly he >> should. It is also true that he depends too much on audio recordings >> because he did not learn Braille. Yet parents of blind children have >> been forced to admit that the cane would make Governor Patterson look >> less confident and probably impede his job. We say that to be blind is >> respectable and that the cane is a symbol of that respect, but the >> sighted world doesn't agree. I've had this discussion with sighted >> friends, and the overall agreement we have reached is that I appear >> confident with my cane only because I appear to be extremely confident >> without it. The cane subtracts from apparent confidence in the eyes of >> the sighted public, and Governor Patterson doesn't have what it takes >> to pull it off in his line of work. So he uses a lot of sighted guide >> with a somewhat unorthodox technique that is basically effective and >> looks good on camera. Good adaptation on his part. >> >> As to Braille, there are a lot of people who don't know Braille who are >> blind. It would be enough to me for Governor Patterson to say that >> Braille is important, literacy is important, and that it would probably >> would've been better for him in the long run if he had learned it. He >> can't take the time to do so now. >> >> These are the two things that people have cited on these lists most >> often. Others were cited, but have been explained as things an >> executive would be expected to pay someone else to do anyway. I'll >> forgive his rejection of a cane since it truly would impede his career >> (whether I think that's just or not), and I understand the challenge of >> learning Braille as an adult because I learned it as one. >> >> Hopefully my ramblings have helped explain my thinking at least a bit. >> >> Joseph >> >> On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 03:03:51PM -0500, Robert Spangler wrote: >>> Hello Mr. Carter, >>> >>> I do understand that there is a line that must be drawn regarding >>> when one may need assistance. As Brice said in a previous message, >>> we can't get anywhere without at least some dependence on others and >>> I agree with this. even people without disabilities need a hand >>> sometimes. I am OK with using public transportation and maybe >>> accepting the occasional ride from a sighted counterpart; however, >>> that is with the understanding that I do not do it all the time, I >>> am not inconveniencing that person, and I have the skills to get >>> from point A to point B if that driver weren't present. Public >>> transit doesn't count to me because sighted people use that as well. >>> I simply try not to seem as though I need more help than the >>> average sighted person. sure, I need help with things due to my >>> vision impairment, but I try my hardest to keep that to a minimum. I >>> have heard many times, and it is a contraversial subject on here, >>> that Mr. Paterson is assisted more than he should be and that he is >>> unable to perform many tasks that you and I do ourselves >>> independently on a daily basis. Yes, you are right in that many >>> politicians pay people to do things for them simply because they can >>> afford it and why not if they can pay someone to do it? sure I >>> agree with that, but only if I am able to perform those chores by >>> myself first would I invest in someone to do them for me. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Robby >>> T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>>> Brice, >>>> >>>> It never ceases to amaze me how quickly you see through to the >>>> heart of the matter. That's a fine talent and gift you've got, and >>>> I am always glad to see the use to which you put it. >>>> >>>> Let us consider a hypothetical situation: I am in Monmouth, Oregon >>>> and I wish to attend a conference in Portland, Oregon. For a >>>> sighted person, it is an eighty minute drive, but I am blind and >>>> have an "Oregon license to not drive. Ever." (That is a story for >>>> another email.) >>>> >>>> How shall I get there? I can hire a driver. I can take travel >>>> using three interconnected public transit systems. I can ask >>>> someone for a ride. Or, someone may offer me a ride. >>>> >>>> Robert seems to suggest that I am not independent unless I can get >>>> there without reliance on others. That takes away hiring a driver >>>> (i.e., letting an employee provide transportation), and public >>>> transit (i.e., letting four different people drive different legs >>>> of the trip). >>>> >>>> That's not a bad definition of independence, but it points out the >>>> truth rather clearly: None of us, sighted, blind, or otherwise, is >>>> independent. Those sighted people who are driving depend on people >>>> to manufacture and maintain the cars they drive, after all. >>>> >>>> Yet Robert is right that I should be able to make the decision to >>>> attend without first asking someone else if they're willing or able >>>> to provide me with the means to do it. This is self-determination, >>>> and I do not believe a healthy level of independence exists in the >>>> absence of it. >>>> >>>> That said, a healthy level of independence seems to also require >>>> that once I have reached self-determination, I am comfortable >>>> enough with my own ability to find a way to get there that I can >>>> give an appropriate answer when a colleague says, "Hey, I'm going >>>> to the same conference, and I live just a few blocks away from >>>> you. Can I offer you a ride?" That answer might be, "Thanks for >>>> offering, but no, I have a couple of errands to run along the >>>> way." Or it might be, "Hey, thanks! I appreciate it!" >>>> >>>> Could I get there otherwise, absolutely I can. Do I need to prove >>>> it? To whom, exactly? And why? >>>> >>>> Governor Patterson has many aides who do things for him that the >>>> rest of us do for ourselves because he pays them to. In that he's >>>> like any other politician. Politicians frequently pay people to >>>> drive for them, do their laundry, clean up their houses, read their >>>> mail, and the list goes on. They could do these things, but that >>>> would mean less time for being a politician. Some of the things >>>> Governor Patterson's aides do are different than what other >>>> governors' aides do, but they're no more and no less than the >>>> things others have done for them. >>>> >>>> Could Governor Patterson do these things for himself if he were no >>>> longer in office with aides to help him with everything? Possibly >>>> he'd have to learn how to do some of them--remember that President >>>> Clinton had to learn how to use an ATM after he left office. >>>> Maybe the ATMs are more complex for politicians, though. I mean, I >>>> use one and it asks me Checking or Savings.. He probably gets >>>> asked to choose Hard Money, Soft Money, etc. *grin* >>>> >>>> If the governor wants to make a decision, do you think he's got to >>>> go around and ask people if they can do it for him? I suspect he >>>> just makes it, and calls someone to ask them to arrange the >>>> details, just as any other executive would. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 11:27:17PM -0500, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> Robert, >>>>> >>>>> So a person can only achieve success and your respect If they do >>>>> something on their own without help from anyone? If I understand you, >>>>> If he's not doing it himself without assistance, it doesn't make a >>>>> difference and is worthless. >>>>> >>>>> I'm certainly not in the mood to open up another long and drawn-out >>>>> philosophy debate on the NFB's student list again, but you and I are >>>>> going to completely and totally disagree on this. I'm hoping this >>>>> doesn't start another roar, but I can't help but say a couple of >>>>> things: >>>>> >>>>> If you held a position of high authority as Governor Paterson, or any >>>>> other governor or elected official such as the president does, you're >>>>> going to be surrounded by people. chances are, they're going to be >>>>> sighted; and chances are, they're going to be absolutely crucial to >>>>> your success. President-elect Obama will be surrounded by a host of >>>>> helpers and staff members, and will experience very little freedom for >>>>> the next few years. He will certainly do "nothing alone;" and even If >>>>> he were blind, the level of assistance and contribution he receives >>>>> from the people around him might not change. The same goes for >>>>> Governor Paterson, as he too cannot act alone. He, like any other >>>>> governor, has a network of staff and cabinet members who constantly >>>>> assist him. If you were elected governor, regardless of your desires >>>>> to act alone, you would still work and be surrounded by people who >>>>> would be extremely important to your success. You would constantly >>>>> have people "breathing down your neck," perhaps more than you would >>>>> want to handle. And you might only rarely go down the street without >>>>> being followed, watched, guided, or surrounded. >>>>> >>>>> But what difference does it make? >>>>> >>>>> -Brice >>>>> >>>>> On 12/22/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>>> While I agree that he's accomplished quite a feat becoming >>>>>> governor and >>>>>> all, I critique people very strictly. I do not respect someone solely >>>>>> based on their accomplishments. sure, he has made this >>>>>> success, but if >>>>>> someone is always helping him and he's not doing things himself, what >>>>>> difference does it make? Frankly, I'm taking care of myself and doing >>>>>> my work without intervention if I get such a position. I'd be >>>>>> proud of >>>>>> myself so much that I would want to do it. I don't want some sighted >>>>>> person breathing down my neck every second and taking my hand to guide >>>>>> me down the street. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brice Smith wrote: >>>>>>> Robert, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ": >>>>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If anything, I find this blatantly disrespectful. Governor >>>>>>> Paterson is >>>>>>> the first legally blind governor of any U.S. State; the first >>>>>>> African-American governor of New York; and a graduate of Columbia and >>>>>>> Hofstra University School of Law. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Paterson might not have amazing "blindness skills," but assuming the >>>>>>> statistic concerning the unemployment rate of blind people in America >>>>>>> is true, Paterson -- NFB or not, super independence skills or not -- >>>>>>> has certainly made a name for himself and has my respect. >>>>>>> Frankly, I'm >>>>>>> not so sure the NFB can offer Paterson much; while his methods of >>>>>>> personal independence might not be in line with the NFB's philosophy, >>>>>>> at the end of the day he's managed to do his job regardless of the >>>>>>> methods used and to be successful. And you advocate making >>>>>>> fun of him? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Brice >>>>>>> On 12/20/08, Robert Spangler wrote: >>>>>>>> Exactly. If anything, the NFB should be pointing out and >>>>>>>> making fun of >>>>>>>> Governor Paterson for not wan ting to act blind and be independent. >>>>>>>> He's the kind of person who makes blind people look bad if anyone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi Carrie, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have seen the logical arguments put forth by you and >>>>>>>>> Joe. I will not >>>>>>>>> write as much. I just wanted to say that personal >>>>>>>>> experience shows that >>>>>>>>> you are right on. Determination plays a role but so does the >>>>>>>>> opportunities you are given. We are not dealt equal >>>>>>>>> opportunity and >>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>> presents things beyond your control. For instance we do >>>>>>>>> not choose our >>>>>>>>> parents. We did not know nfb until high school. My >>>>>>>>> parents lacked the >>>>>>>>> patience or knowledge to teach me some things. A rehab >>>>>>>>> teacher showed >>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>> as a teen some kitchen stuff like cutting and spreading. >>>>>>>>> My parents did >>>>>>>>> support my academic growth and went to IEPS, read to me >>>>>>>>> and with me, >>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>> Also we do not usually choose our teachers. I was >>>>>>>>> fortunate to learn >>>>>>>>> Braille by a nationally known teacher who wrote books. A >>>>>>>>> young child >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>> read more proficiently than a teen or adult learning. So yes we do >>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>> reality but reality is somewhat determined for us. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As to the skit I have not seen it. Can someone provide a >>>>>>>>> link to see >>>>>>>>> it? >>>>>>>>> I think too much is being made of it. A short skit will >>>>>>>>> be forgotten. >>>>>>>>> Many public officials are poked fun of. George Bush's >>>>>>>>> speech is made >>>>>>>>> fun >>>>>>>>> of a lot. I don't know whether I am offended not seeing >>>>>>>>> the clip. But >>>>>>>>> sterotypes are out there. I guess I feel we can do more >>>>>>>>> to change and >>>>>>>>> break stereotypes by being out there doing normal things >>>>>>>>> rather than >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> defensive about media clips. >>>>>>>>> For those who don't watch SNL they won't know what the media is >>>>>>>>> referencing. The press release did its job though; it >>>>>>>>> was picked up by >>>>>>>>> CNN; my mom saw it and told me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>>>> Sometimes email is such a difficult form of >>>>>>>>>> communication. I never said >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. You said that " >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> an unfortunate perception in the NFB that all blind >>>>>>>>>> people are tough go >>>>>>>>>> getters" and that with just the right training the >>>>>>>>>> world can be theirs. >>>>>>>>>> My >>>>>>>>>> response was only to indicate that in my experience >>>>>>>>>> with a wide variety >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> those who have been with the federation either rather newly or for >>>>>>>>>> decades >>>>>>>>>> and with a geographic spread--there is no such general simplistic >>>>>>>>>> over-all >>>>>>>>>> perception. Meaning that the NFB is well aware that >>>>>>>>>> many have had the >>>>>>>>>> tough-go-get-um-ness broken, some can be inspired to >>>>>>>>>> get it back, and >>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> some need to get it back varies, and some may never get >>>>>>>>>> it totally back >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> need continued friendship and support as they are >>>>>>>>>> coming along as best >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> can and some because of the variability of humans in >>>>>>>>>> general never had >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>> toughness or go-get-um-ness. On the other hand we have a firm deep >>>>>>>>>> belief >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> is true that even those who are very broken or who have not had >>>>>>>>>> opportunity >>>>>>>>>> with proper training can (and have over and over)rise >>>>>>>>>> up and do achieve >>>>>>>>>> great things for themselves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And I basically agree that a person's >>>>>>>>>> choices/reactions/pro-activity >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> their choices--what I was saying though is that there is room for >>>>>>>>>> understanding about where people come from, that not >>>>>>>>>> all choices are >>>>>>>>>> equal >>>>>>>>>> in difficulty, people do not have the same resources >>>>>>>>>> and supports or >>>>>>>>>> levels >>>>>>>>>> of things that have come against them or levels of >>>>>>>>>> things to come back. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> not personally ready to level total blame at anyone and >>>>>>>>>> that there are >>>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> than simply two choices in life in my experience as one >>>>>>>>>> of your earlier >>>>>>>>>> posts claimed. People have carved success out of huge >>>>>>>>>> failures that >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> been foisted at them. People have also failed when given every >>>>>>>>>> opportunity. >>>>>>>>>> Some people are trapped in a reality not of their own >>>>>>>>>> making, and do >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> have the resources or the knowledge of how to get out, >>>>>>>>>> they may not >>>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> aware they can get out. I believe in personal >>>>>>>>>> responsibility yet I am >>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>> aware keenly from my life experience that it is the >>>>>>>>>> rare person who can >>>>>>>>>> rise >>>>>>>>>> up and expect high things from themselves when no one else expects >>>>>>>>>> anything >>>>>>>>>> at all. I also know that learned fears can not just be overcome by >>>>>>>>>> intellect, and emotions can take some time and often outside >>>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I am wise enough to say why each >>>>>>>>>> person seemingly can >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> break out or even as a group why some can or do not. I guess with >>>>>>>>>> blindness >>>>>>>>>> it has to do with learned, and accepted on some level >>>>>>>>>> dependency, and a >>>>>>>>>> lack >>>>>>>>>> of skills and learned fear. Blind people have >>>>>>>>>> challenges that generally >>>>>>>>>> sighted people trying to break free of their families >>>>>>>>>> or circumstances >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> not have--and I say generally and I do not mean that >>>>>>>>>> blind people are >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> capable. I think the vulnerability has more to do with >>>>>>>>>> isolation in >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> cases than anything else...and isolation can take >>>>>>>>>> multiple forms even >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> life. It has to do with an unusual set of not expecting >>>>>>>>>> things that >>>>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>> uniquely more often to blind people. It is not totally >>>>>>>>>> unique, there >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> inner city or other where kids who no one ever expected >>>>>>>>>> anything of >>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> neither do they often break out and create high expectations for >>>>>>>>>> themselves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do not ignore or dilute a person's personal >>>>>>>>>> responsibility overall or >>>>>>>>>> ability to break out if they choose to try. Indeed I >>>>>>>>>> have a deep faith >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> people's abilities to rise up against all kinds of set-backs and >>>>>>>>>> challenges >>>>>>>>>> in life. I was "concentrating" on the environmental >>>>>>>>>> side to say it is >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>> simple as people just creating their own realities. >>>>>>>>>> Because I see a lot >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> grey does not mean I do not see clear lines of right >>>>>>>>>> and wrong in many >>>>>>>>>> things. I have not and am not a proponent of the world >>>>>>>>>> totally changing >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the blind person except where access should reasonably be >>>>>>>>>> allowed--meaning >>>>>>>>>> it is right to expect Braille books when you are a student. On the >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> hand the world must change in its misunderstandings of >>>>>>>>>> what it means to >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> blind. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And how this is to the point for me on the SNL. The myths and >>>>>>>>>> misconceptions >>>>>>>>>> perpetuate the unusually difficult environment for the blind--high >>>>>>>>>> unemployment, discrimination, inequality in education, >>>>>>>>>> lack of access, >>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>> Sometimes it is right to come at a blind person or >>>>>>>>>> ourselves as a group >>>>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>>>> and raise expectations--this time for me I agree it was >>>>>>>>>> right for us to >>>>>>>>>> come >>>>>>>>>> at SNL speaking to the misconceptions they expect as >>>>>>>>>> true and helped >>>>>>>>>> give >>>>>>>>>> advertisement and perpetuation to. We do both, from the >>>>>>>>>> inside and to >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> outside--both must be worked at. Talking about or doing >>>>>>>>>> one does not >>>>>>>>>> exclude >>>>>>>>>> the other. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we could go on for quite awhile, it would be >>>>>>>>>> fun to be in a >>>>>>>>>> philosophy class with you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I would indeed like to hear some of your ideas. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 2:07 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> People may very well tell a blind person that their dreams are too >>>>>>>>>> lofty. >>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>> blind person's own family may very well feel that their blind >>>>>>>>>> relative's >>>>>>>>>> abilities are too limited. The media may very well >>>>>>>>>> portray the blind >>>>>>>>>> character as something less than realistic. In short, >>>>>>>>>> the world may >>>>>>>>>> very >>>>>>>>>> well feel like a dismal place for a blind person, so >>>>>>>>>> yes, I want people >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> know that from us there is no hesitation, no reluctance, about our >>>>>>>>>> unequivocal belief in that person's capacity to move a >>>>>>>>>> mountain if they >>>>>>>>>> should feel so inclined. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The real world is not simple. A person may find >>>>>>>>>> themselves setting a >>>>>>>>>> goal, >>>>>>>>>> and then, abruptly, life throws a challenge in their >>>>>>>>>> direction. Yet, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> goal has not changed, only the person's method of >>>>>>>>>> achieving it, and if >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> person should feel too discouraged to continue pursuing >>>>>>>>>> it, the person >>>>>>>>>> should consider the possibility that perhaps they never >>>>>>>>>> really meant to >>>>>>>>>> achieve it in the first place. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is no gray matter. Life is full of failure and >>>>>>>>>> disappointments, >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> strength is found in how well a person overcomes those >>>>>>>>>> obstacles. It >>>>>>>>>> has >>>>>>>>>> never been my position that a person's success is built >>>>>>>>>> entirely alone. >>>>>>>>>> Just as there are people who will attempt to hinder >>>>>>>>>> another person's >>>>>>>>>> achievements, there will be people whose patient >>>>>>>>>> guidance will help >>>>>>>>>> fuel >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> person's desire, but neither the former nor the latter >>>>>>>>>> will guarantee >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> person's accomplishments. A person may not be responsible for the >>>>>>>>>> environment where they were raised, but it is mostly >>>>>>>>>> certainly their >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> prerogative to dictate the environment where they will >>>>>>>>>> grow. By your >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> definition a person is capable of creating their own >>>>>>>>>> reality, because >>>>>>>>>> anything greater than the challenges of life, or the >>>>>>>>>> views others may >>>>>>>>>> attempt to impose, is a reality separate from the >>>>>>>>>> existence that would >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> unraveled had the person given into those challenges or pressures. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As I observed in a different discussion thread, the basis of my >>>>>>>>>> arguments >>>>>>>>>> would be flawed if the discussion were being carried >>>>>>>>>> out in the middle >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> developing country. It is not. Our laws and views in the United >>>>>>>>>> States >>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>> not always be the most accommodating, but the level of >>>>>>>>>> opportunities >>>>>>>>>> enjoyed >>>>>>>>>> here far surpass the level of opportunities in most >>>>>>>>>> other parts of the >>>>>>>>>> world. In this country people with disabilities have >>>>>>>>>> come along too >>>>>>>>>> far >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> their fight for equality to allow their predecessors to enjoy the >>>>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>>>> of blaming someone else for their shortcomings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do not deny the fact that blind people are oppressed >>>>>>>>>> and forced to >>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>> under deplorable conditions. This is no different from >>>>>>>>>> sex trafficking >>>>>>>>>> victims who are forced to work under similar circumstances. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I do not deny that blind people are victims of violence >>>>>>>>>> simply because >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> are blind. How is this different from the homosexual >>>>>>>>>> who is the victim >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> hate crimes because he is gay? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I fail to see your conclusion here. It is quite >>>>>>>>>> obvious that blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> are just as likely as anyone else of facing unfair >>>>>>>>>> treatment. Is it >>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>> belief that these victims have no choice but to accept their >>>>>>>>>> circumstances? >>>>>>>>>> Your logic concentrates on the person's surroundings >>>>>>>>>> and not enough on >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> person, or maybe the problem is that your logic would >>>>>>>>>> rather ponder the >>>>>>>>>> problem rather than the solution. Hatred is a natural >>>>>>>>>> flaw of human >>>>>>>>>> nature, >>>>>>>>>> and to suggest that hatred, or discrimination, is to blame for a >>>>>>>>>> person's >>>>>>>>>> inability to break out of a mold is like blaming >>>>>>>>>> gravity for a plane >>>>>>>>>> crash. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You disagree that the NFB views blind people as tough. >>>>>>>>>> What I should >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> said is that the organization would like blind people >>>>>>>>>> to be tough, but >>>>>>>>>> regardless of the angle you choose, there is still the >>>>>>>>>> matter of what >>>>>>>>>> constitutes proper training. The hard core >>>>>>>>>> Federationist would argue >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> the only means of achieving proper training is through >>>>>>>>>> the attendance >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> of the three NFB training centers. With few >>>>>>>>>> exceptions, this hard core >>>>>>>>>> Federationist would suggest that anything outside this >>>>>>>>>> sphere may be >>>>>>>>>> good, >>>>>>>>>> but not good enough. Do you detect much of a >>>>>>>>>> difference between that >>>>>>>>>> Federationist's strict adherence and my high >>>>>>>>>> expectations? I would >>>>>>>>>> venture >>>>>>>>>> to guess the only difference between he and I is the >>>>>>>>>> diplomatic means >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> articulating the same point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now, you say a blind person's plight is not owed to the >>>>>>>>>> "workability of >>>>>>>>>> their eyeballs." To clarify, you are saying a person's >>>>>>>>>> limitations are >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> owed to their being blind. You blame other people for these >>>>>>>>>> limitations. >>>>>>>>>> You blame their environment. Then at what point is the >>>>>>>>>> blind person >>>>>>>>>> held >>>>>>>>>> responsible for their own performance? Or are you advancing the >>>>>>>>>> hypothesis >>>>>>>>>> that for certain blind people there is no such thing as >>>>>>>>>> responsibility? >>>>>>>>>> To >>>>>>>>>> me it seems that blaiming a person's environment expects the >>>>>>>>>> environment >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> change for the sake of the blind person, and while such >>>>>>>>>> a position may >>>>>>>>>> sit >>>>>>>>>> well in the ACB, it is not welcomed here. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The press release that came on the heels of the show >>>>>>>>>> was not so much a >>>>>>>>>> mistake for its publication but more for its content. >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> makes the whole thing a mistake. The rhetoric was unnecessarily >>>>>>>>>> defensive >>>>>>>>>> and overbearing. Calling the show an "attack" would >>>>>>>>>> lead an uninformed >>>>>>>>>> reader to believe that the resolve of the blind community is so >>>>>>>>>> delicate >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> to be crumpled by a fleeting brush of sarcasm. Acknowledging the >>>>>>>>>> segment >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> all through the distribution of a press release only >>>>>>>>>> legitimized the >>>>>>>>>> show's >>>>>>>>>> impact. If anything, I feel the formal attention given >>>>>>>>>> to the segment >>>>>>>>>> turned the brief exhibit of humor into a serious >>>>>>>>>> question of whether or >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> blind people really do behave the way the actor >>>>>>>>>> conducted himself in >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> skit. I mean, what does the National Center expect of >>>>>>>>>> a show using >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> format? A perfect blind person with all the >>>>>>>>>> alternative techniques >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> not be funny. Actually, they would be rather boring >>>>>>>>>> for SNL, so is it >>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>> position that blind people should just not be featured >>>>>>>>>> on SNL because >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> people are too sensitive? Or, a better question, how >>>>>>>>>> would you have >>>>>>>>>> rewritten the skit to meet your approval of a funny and >>>>>>>>>> educational >>>>>>>>>> experience? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Now, as to your final question of what I would suggest >>>>>>>>>> as a better use >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> our strength as the largest organization of blind >>>>>>>>>> people...that could >>>>>>>>>> take >>>>>>>>>> another voluminous post I am sure you are not >>>>>>>>>> interested in reading. >>>>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>>>> push comes to shove I will most definitely share my >>>>>>>>>> thoughts, yet for >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>> let's call that one a to be continued... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 9:48 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Well Joe we definitely disagree on a few points. As I >>>>>>>>>> have aged I have >>>>>>>>>> found >>>>>>>>>> the edges not so clear cut. I see much more grey >>>>>>>>>> including in my hair. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> People are dealt things in life regularly that are beyond total >>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>> control; meaning sometimes life makes a choice for you >>>>>>>>>> and then how you >>>>>>>>>> react is a choice and then what you have in your >>>>>>>>>> abilities and flaws >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> opportunities or resources or stumbling blocks affects >>>>>>>>>> or limits the >>>>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>>> or even your ability to make them. Sometimes other >>>>>>>>>> people force their >>>>>>>>>> view >>>>>>>>>> of how things should be (or their choices) on you. Sometimes >>>>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>>>> is not enough. Dr. tenBroek was determined to get a >>>>>>>>>> certain kind of job >>>>>>>>>> early on; he was not able to totally create the >>>>>>>>>> "reality" he wished >>>>>>>>>> despite >>>>>>>>>> his unrelenting determination because of the reality of >>>>>>>>>> the level of >>>>>>>>>> prejudice about his blindness. That is what I mean when I say in >>>>>>>>>> reality >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> think we do not totally create our own. Often times >>>>>>>>>> what people think >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> have done for themselves alone was enabled by earlier >>>>>>>>>> mentoring, inborn >>>>>>>>>> intelligence, family resources...a whole host of >>>>>>>>>> possible supports. We >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> reality given to us mostly that we must deal with--only those in a >>>>>>>>>> fantasy >>>>>>>>>> truly create their own was my point. How we deal with it by choice >>>>>>>>>> becomes a >>>>>>>>>> personal reality or environment but the choices are not >>>>>>>>>> totally always >>>>>>>>>> free >>>>>>>>>> or enabled--the choices also are sometimes in reality not of our >>>>>>>>>> choosing. I >>>>>>>>>> suppose this could sound like an excuse for not being personally >>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>> for a choice, and I don't think that at all. It just >>>>>>>>>> isn't black and >>>>>>>>>> white >>>>>>>>>> and that people totally create their own realities in a >>>>>>>>>> vacuum where >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> are all powerful. It also doesn't mean that those who >>>>>>>>>> are now powerless >>>>>>>>>> can't be empowered. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dr. tenBroek was not the only blind person to >>>>>>>>>> experience the reality he >>>>>>>>>> did. >>>>>>>>>> I doubt that the majority of unemployed blind people are without >>>>>>>>>> determination to work or wouldn't change their reality >>>>>>>>>> of unemployment >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> employment if they had the power to do so tomorrow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If I thought it impossible for progress to be made I would not be >>>>>>>>>> volunteering 50 plus hours a week for this >>>>>>>>>> organization. In fact I am >>>>>>>>>> full >>>>>>>>>> of hope and optimism about it and think we are farther >>>>>>>>>> than ever before >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> history. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On one point I will say I think you are undeniably mistaken, blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> have been prohibited from trying. And are today. >>>>>>>>>> Prohibition also takes >>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>> forms. If you also think blind people have not been >>>>>>>>>> oppressed, victims >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> unfair and deplorable and even forced labor conditions >>>>>>>>>> you are also >>>>>>>>>> mistaken; and some blind people are victims of this >>>>>>>>>> even today. If you >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> some have not been victims of violence also and >>>>>>>>>> directly because they >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> blind you are mistaken; it too occurs today. There is >>>>>>>>>> discrimination >>>>>>>>>> born >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> pity to be sure, but there are people who have enough >>>>>>>>>> of a distaste for >>>>>>>>>> whom >>>>>>>>>> they consider to be flawed human beings that hatred >>>>>>>>>> qualifies. Blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> were not openly sold on the slave block true--and it is not a >>>>>>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>>> perfect comparison, but (BTW) what do you think >>>>>>>>>> happened to the blind >>>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>>> people in the day? There is much we do have in common. >>>>>>>>>> The comparison I >>>>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>>>> compared the basis of the humor being false for black >>>>>>>>>> people as it is >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> blind people. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also think you are mistaken in generalizing the NFB >>>>>>>>>> as having its >>>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>> about blind people all being "tough go getters" as you >>>>>>>>>> say. That is not >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> experience. We are well aware of the cross section of society, of >>>>>>>>>> ability, >>>>>>>>>> of ambition; there is a spectrum. I believe it was Dr. >>>>>>>>>> Jernigan who >>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> have our geniuses and our jerks. I agree we believe >>>>>>>>>> quality training >>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> help a person achieve their own full personal potential if that >>>>>>>>>> potential >>>>>>>>>> but we also realize there is serious difficulty amongst >>>>>>>>>> those whose >>>>>>>>>> potential has been too badly damaged. There are also >>>>>>>>>> blind people who >>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>> do not have the wherewithal or opportunity or knowledge >>>>>>>>>> to rise above >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> out of a place they have been prohibited to. Also the quality of >>>>>>>>>> available >>>>>>>>>> training to get them "out" is wildly variable across >>>>>>>>>> the U.S. They need >>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>> rescuing and support--not our condemnation, in my opinion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes there are blind people who could and should but >>>>>>>>>> don't and it is >>>>>>>>>> frustrating. Yes there are those who like many take the >>>>>>>>>> perceived easy >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> out for now and blame their blindness for their >>>>>>>>>> troubles or use it for >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> free lunch or let it limit and do not question or have >>>>>>>>>> given up or seem >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> enjoy the attention they get from being the one amazing >>>>>>>>>> blind person >>>>>>>>>> around. >>>>>>>>>> Who can say how easy or hard or possible it would be >>>>>>>>>> for each of them >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> change as compared to oneself. Then there are those who >>>>>>>>>> never learned >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> read at all until adulthood and may never read as well >>>>>>>>>> as someone who >>>>>>>>>> learned in kindergarten no matter the determination. >>>>>>>>>> There are some >>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>> that you can not do over or ever get back. Society and some blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> both need to understand that their plight is not due to >>>>>>>>>> the workability >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> their eyeballs. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If those who have been the recipient of discrimination or >>>>>>>>>> misunderstanding >>>>>>>>>> never had raised a protest about it--nothing would ever >>>>>>>>>> change. I don't >>>>>>>>>> believe anyone believes one press release will change >>>>>>>>>> the world, but >>>>>>>>>> personally I feel it is possibly beneficial in this case to say >>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>> and I support the fact we did. I feel if we said >>>>>>>>>> nothing and laughed >>>>>>>>>> along >>>>>>>>>> (if we didn't think it was indeed funny-as many >>>>>>>>>> apparently don't) then >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> are in agreement with those who laugh at the blind >>>>>>>>>> rather than with. To >>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>> there is a difference. Responding is one of thousands >>>>>>>>>> of things and >>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> all work for awareness and progress--including within >>>>>>>>>> the population of >>>>>>>>>> blind people-- everyday. We don't know what saying >>>>>>>>>> something could lead >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> in a positive, we do know that saying nothing teaches >>>>>>>>>> nothing and gives >>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>> the impression that is was just fine to do--maybe even wonderfully >>>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>>>> and bright. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I love to laugh at myself. I think it is healthy. But I >>>>>>>>>> laugh at myself >>>>>>>>>> about real things. I don't find the skit funny the way >>>>>>>>>> it was done, and >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> laughs will be at the expense of perpetuating the >>>>>>>>>> myths. I don't think >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> shows an equality of treatment for the blind by poking >>>>>>>>>> fun this way. I >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> they made fun of the easiest thing for them, showed no >>>>>>>>>> creativity (it >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> oldest joke in the world), and probably made themselves >>>>>>>>>> believe they >>>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>>> being cutting edge or something because they dared to >>>>>>>>>> make fun of the >>>>>>>>>> governor's blindness. President Ford had a tendency to >>>>>>>>>> fall or trip and >>>>>>>>>> everyone made fun of that. Bush is often bumbling in >>>>>>>>>> speech and the >>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>> world makes fun of that. I don't think this is the >>>>>>>>>> same--I think they >>>>>>>>>> pulled >>>>>>>>>> at the stereotypes rather than just at the governor. I >>>>>>>>>> don't know how >>>>>>>>>> bumbling the governor really is--is he more than >>>>>>>>>> others, a lot or a >>>>>>>>>> little? >>>>>>>>>> I don't know. If he is bumbling and it is due to a lack >>>>>>>>>> of skills, how >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>> is due to what I have heard (if even true) of his being >>>>>>>>>> raised to "not >>>>>>>>>> look >>>>>>>>>> blind"? I don't know. I don't think the writer's of SNL >>>>>>>>>> know either. I >>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>> it was done more to the stereotype than actually >>>>>>>>>> specifically to the >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> who is governor. I don't know if the governor had been >>>>>>>>>> skilled with a >>>>>>>>>> cane >>>>>>>>>> and personally had great orientation skills, read >>>>>>>>>> Braille at 350 words >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> minute, had great skills in all non -visual techniques >>>>>>>>>> that they would >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> have still made fun of his blindness in the same way. >>>>>>>>>> "Skilled" blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> fumble too and drop and spill and get lost just like >>>>>>>>>> sighted people do >>>>>>>>>> sometimes. It is just that when they do the public assumes it is >>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>> they are blind. Or maybe they would have portrayed him >>>>>>>>>> as the blind >>>>>>>>>> justice >>>>>>>>>> super blind character. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They pulled at blindness the same way it was done at >>>>>>>>>> the end of Shrek >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> the three blind mice are performing and do not know >>>>>>>>>> enough to face the >>>>>>>>>> audience. Saturday Night Live was new and really cutting edge and >>>>>>>>>> creative >>>>>>>>>> when it first came out when I was young--they seem to >>>>>>>>>> have lost a lot >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> their creativity overall in my opinion. I am diverse, >>>>>>>>>> my family is, and >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> applaud diversity. I do a lot of laughing and find a >>>>>>>>>> lot of joy on the >>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>> to progress. The rawness you speak of is nothing new to this >>>>>>>>>> generation. >>>>>>>>>> It >>>>>>>>>> depends on the rawness-some things, as you say, feel >>>>>>>>>> raw because the >>>>>>>>>> truth >>>>>>>>>> does not wish to be faced. Some things are advertised >>>>>>>>>> as raw but are >>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>> just raunchy. I put this one in the raunchy category. I do not >>>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>>> why you think that feeling this portrayal is without >>>>>>>>>> humor means I or >>>>>>>>>> others >>>>>>>>>> who also find the same lack of humor to be depressed as >>>>>>>>>> we go along or >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> some kind of denial about the blind people who may exhibit these >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical behaviors. I don't agree it is about political >>>>>>>>>> correctness >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> all. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I get the impression Joe--maybe wrongly--but it seems >>>>>>>>>> that you place >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> majority of "blame" for the fact that blind people are >>>>>>>>>> not yet fully >>>>>>>>>> integrated on terms of equality (or maybe just the >>>>>>>>>> continued butt of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> same old jokes) on the blind people themselves--or on those blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>> exhibit stereotypical behaviors themselves or who are >>>>>>>>>> not generally >>>>>>>>>> successful by the general way we define success in America-meaning >>>>>>>>>> self-supportive and independent. So it seems you think >>>>>>>>>> if these blind >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> would just pull themselves up by their boot straps, if >>>>>>>>>> blind children >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> just stop poking their eyes and get Braille (like the >>>>>>>>>> 90% who don't are >>>>>>>>>> because they refused it?) and a cane and teach >>>>>>>>>> themselves, if young >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> adults who never had the chance would just get their >>>>>>>>>> rehab counselors >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> training centers on the ball, if they could just get a >>>>>>>>>> little gumption >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> could prevent employers from discriminating...we >>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be having >>>>>>>>>> such >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> problem...and would have our respectability. I think it is not so >>>>>>>>>> simple >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> all on the blind as all that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You said, "so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>>>>> terrible >>>>>>>>>> things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind >>>>>>>>>> people, let's use >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> strength of the largest blindness organization to do >>>>>>>>>> something about >>>>>>>>>> it..." >>>>>>>>>> Well Joe I really think we are--in every area one can think of and >>>>>>>>>> imagine...complaining about terrible things done that >>>>>>>>>> wrongly portray >>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>> people are just one. How do you think we can do more >>>>>>>>>> about it as you >>>>>>>>>> say. >>>>>>>>>> Use our strength how? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Home Phone: 763-784-8590 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> carrie.gilmer at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 1:14 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in >>>>>>>>>> fact create their >>>>>>>>>> own >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> version of reality according to their limited >>>>>>>>>> capacities. Yet, unless >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see >>>>>>>>>> how this extreme >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in >>>>>>>>>> general. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal >>>>>>>>>> expectation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, >>>>>>>>>> socioeconomic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind >>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to >>>>>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up >>>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the means to engineer their success in an area far >>>>>>>>>> removed from that >>>>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> society may have projected. You either fail, or you >>>>>>>>>> succeed. There >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> only two choices in life, and the choice you make is >>>>>>>>>> the reality you >>>>>>>>>> choose >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I >>>>>>>>>> used "environment" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> rather than "reality?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an >>>>>>>>>> easy task, but >>>>>>>>>> then, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that was the point of my prior post. One need not work >>>>>>>>>> in rehab to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of >>>>>>>>>> determination >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of >>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> who built profitable careers long before the advent of >>>>>>>>>> technology and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness >>>>>>>>>> and slavery are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not >>>>>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. >>>>>>>>>> Blind people may >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but >>>>>>>>>> they have never >>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated >>>>>>>>>> as commodities. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> They were treated like animals. Blind people may have >>>>>>>>>> faced their own >>>>>>>>>> set >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of >>>>>>>>>> pity, not from >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> distaste, so please do not attempt to force a >>>>>>>>>> comparison between the >>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and the orange. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American >>>>>>>>>> slaves. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke >>>>>>>>>> is meant to >>>>>>>>>> recall >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> memories of those terrible days where black people were >>>>>>>>>> treated like >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on >>>>>>>>>> culture. People >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless >>>>>>>>>> you want their >>>>>>>>>> whole >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a >>>>>>>>>> Hispanic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you >>>>>>>>>> drive by the >>>>>>>>>> party >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and see more adults than children, it's probably a >>>>>>>>>> Hispanic hosting the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> party in the first place. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based >>>>>>>>>> on stereotypes? >>>>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're >>>>>>>>>> generally >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> not, we should remember that where there's smoke, >>>>>>>>>> there's fire. Enough >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth >>>>>>>>>> to the jokes >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, >>>>>>>>>> maybe there are >>>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and >>>>>>>>>> looking >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> generally ridiculous that the general public has no >>>>>>>>>> choice but to lend >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a >>>>>>>>>> targeted >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> population in someone's punch line, it is your choice >>>>>>>>>> to surpass that >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to >>>>>>>>>> poke fun at black >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration >>>>>>>>>> status. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming >>>>>>>>>> depressed >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You >>>>>>>>>> may as well laugh >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> you go about the business of changing perceptions. >>>>>>>>>> Your generation may >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more >>>>>>>>>> diverse and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, >>>>>>>>>> is one of the >>>>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this >>>>>>>>>> sarcastic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> existence. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, >>>>>>>>>> just maybe, there >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, >>>>>>>>>> less refusal to >>>>>>>>>> learn >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to >>>>>>>>>> talk about JAWS...I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing >>>>>>>>>> to do with career >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> aspirations. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the >>>>>>>>>> status quo? One has >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or >>>>>>>>>> because we have not >>>>>>>>>> yet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination >>>>>>>>>> of both. Never >>>>>>>>>> mind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the press releases that prolong what would have been >>>>>>>>>> easily forgotten >>>>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate >>>>>>>>>> perception that >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of >>>>>>>>>> training, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the >>>>>>>>>> choir. The NFB is >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing >>>>>>>>>> population of blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people. In many ways the general public is no more >>>>>>>>>> mature than we were >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> high school. The ridiculousness of today will be >>>>>>>>>> forgotten in a few >>>>>>>>>> days, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the >>>>>>>>>> terrible things >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's >>>>>>>>>> use the strength >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> largest blindness organization to do something about >>>>>>>>>> it. The world >>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press >>>>>>>>>> release. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dear Joe, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own >>>>>>>>>> personal >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I >>>>>>>>>> don't think that >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> exactly what you meant. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For a blind person raised in dependency and low >>>>>>>>>> expectations, yes once >>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, >>>>>>>>>> however it is not >>>>>>>>>> anywhere >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Try working in Rehab for a few years. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I observed that more often than not it was easier for a >>>>>>>>>> person who grew >>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for >>>>>>>>>> someone who grew >>>>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was >>>>>>>>>> allowed to travel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough >>>>>>>>>> Braille (or any) >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> become a good reader. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in >>>>>>>>>> old reality. >>>>>>>>>> Black >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> people were not allowed to learn to read and write. >>>>>>>>>> Black people often >>>>>>>>>> cut >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked >>>>>>>>>> illness in order >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> slow production...because if they produced at peak >>>>>>>>>> capacity then that >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to >>>>>>>>>> slavery but whites >>>>>>>>>> came >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a >>>>>>>>>> result of surviving >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of >>>>>>>>>> treatment of blacks? Is >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true >>>>>>>>>> genetic basis >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blacks? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to >>>>>>>>>> asylums, >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered >>>>>>>>>> workshops, and >>>>>>>>>> today >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the >>>>>>>>>> stereotypes due >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this >>>>>>>>>> treatment, but >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level >>>>>>>>>> of function or >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> competence--it is training and experience and >>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Lives are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> devastated in reality. That is funny? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is >>>>>>>>>> acceptable--granted >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. >>>>>>>>>> The word f**k >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we >>>>>>>>>> regulate it, call it >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> profane? We do place limits. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so >>>>>>>>>> out of a deep >>>>>>>>>> sense >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling >>>>>>>>>> themselves by a >>>>>>>>>> name >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other >>>>>>>>>> nigger. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Blind people who put each other down by calling each >>>>>>>>>> other the names >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or >>>>>>>>>> blind. When the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to >>>>>>>>>> denial >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> opportunity and is always put out as the standard >>>>>>>>>> joke--well c'mon that >>>>>>>>>> joke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't >>>>>>>>>> they come up with >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> something new, and is based in reality? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as >>>>>>>>>> stretching >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on >>>>>>>>>> eyesight--when >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of >>>>>>>>>> that joke does >>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are >>>>>>>>>> naïve at the least. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the >>>>>>>>>> guy able to like >>>>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> through walls practically? This is the other age old >>>>>>>>>> stereotype--if you >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> not bumbling fools then you are mystical and >>>>>>>>>> amazing...that one doesn't >>>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> justice either in my opinion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A >>>>>>>>>> Division of the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind >>>>>>>>>> people who are >>>>>>>>>> told >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such >>>>>>>>>> encouragement, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the >>>>>>>>>> NFB. A vast number >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of >>>>>>>>>> socialization >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, >>>>>>>>>> recognizes the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a >>>>>>>>>> choice as to whether >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> not they want to receive certain training in >>>>>>>>>> alternative techniques to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> behave like those peers. If the average blind person, >>>>>>>>>> or real blind >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the >>>>>>>>>> David Patersons >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the world would be far and few between, and our work in >>>>>>>>>> the NFB would >>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> more about socializing than it would be about advocating. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think people were offended by the segment because >>>>>>>>>> television mocked >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality. We are too defensive to confess that the >>>>>>>>>> fumbling blind man >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would >>>>>>>>>> you not agree that >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people >>>>>>>>>> themselves? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being >>>>>>>>>> black. I'll bet >>>>>>>>>> South >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be >>>>>>>>>> an outrage. Yet >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket >>>>>>>>>> to moan every >>>>>>>>>> time >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all >>>>>>>>>> shapes and colors >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our >>>>>>>>>> attempt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about >>>>>>>>>> Sarah Palin's >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind >>>>>>>>>> are shown to be >>>>>>>>>> less >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> than perfect. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind >>>>>>>>>> according to visual >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or >>>>>>>>>> because we are just >>>>>>>>>> human, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. >>>>>>>>>> Somehow >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind >>>>>>>>>> people to laugh at >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind people. Some blind people go around calling each >>>>>>>>>> other blindies, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet >>>>>>>>>> somehow >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I just don't get it... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James >>>>>>>>>> M. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of Carrie Gilmer >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not >>>>>>>>>> had time to look >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan >>>>>>>>>> to over the >>>>>>>>>> next >>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> days. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The things I am considering are... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does >>>>>>>>>> not use a cane >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. >>>>>>>>>> To a sighted >>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes >>>>>>>>>> don't work. It is >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> understanding he also never learned Braille. I have >>>>>>>>>> heard that this was >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> large part due to his family's feelings that he not be >>>>>>>>>> raised "looking >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit >>>>>>>>>> ironic >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical way >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> has risen to a point of political success that few ever >>>>>>>>>> attain. It also >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical as he does not have good skills in >>>>>>>>>> non-visual techniques. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or >>>>>>>>>> needing to have >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> everything read to him by readers... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a >>>>>>>>>> stereotypical >>>>>>>>>> black >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, >>>>>>>>>> watermelon eating >>>>>>>>>> scene >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, >>>>>>>>> and the public >>>>>>>>>> outcry >>>>>>>>>> would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in >>>>>>>>>> reality-- >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> bumbling--lack of proper training does. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It is also harmful because of our minority status, it >>>>>>>>>> is just one more >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. >>>>>>>>>> Every portrayal >>>>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good >>>>>>>>>> portrayal) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carrie Gilmer, President >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A >>>>>>>>>> Division of the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: >>>>>>>>>> 410-659-9314 Home >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc >>>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Message----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Of J.J. Meddaugh >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments >>>>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Personally, I found the skit funny. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A premier licensed Code Factory distributor >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: "Sarah Jevnikar" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>> onSaturday >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole >>>>>>>>>>> thing is hurtful >>>>>>>>>>> too. >>>>>>>>>>> Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >>>>>>>>>>> stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this >>>>>>>>>>> but did they have >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, >>>>>>>>>>> and in the way >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun >>>>>>>>>>> at him without >>>>>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>> Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the >>>>>>>>>>> press release? ... >>>>>>>>>>> Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it >>>>>>>>>>> there, but it seems to me that just as the New York >>>>>>>>>>> governor has a >>>>>>>>>>> certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an >>>>>>>>>>> equal amount of >>>>>>>>>>> publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so >>>>>>>>>>> sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about >>>>>>>>>>> blindness. We should not make official statements for comical >>>>>>>>>>> nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and >>>>>>>>>>> reserve those for >>>>>>>>>>> when statements are required to drive real impacts >>>>>>>>>>> about real issues. >>>>>>>>>>> I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed >>>>>>>>>>> millions of people >>>>>>>>>>> out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. >>>>>>>>>>> As >>>>>>>>>>> for the humor, I found it gratifying that the >>>>>>>>>>> producers thought blind >>>>>>>>>>> people important enough to be swept up in jokes just >>>>>>>>>>> like any other >>>>>>>>>>> member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the >>>>>>>>>>> show. >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Joe Orozco >>>>>>>>>>> "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for >>>>>>>>>>> humanity."--James M. >>>>>>>>>>> Barrie >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments >>>>>>>>>>> onSaturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>> Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. >>>>>>>>>>> That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. >>>>>>>>>>> Joseph >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, >>>>>>>>>>> pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>> Here are some more articles, and a link to the >>>>>>>>>>>> skit. I also have an >>>>>>>>>>>> article I liked on Facebook, see below. >>>>>>>>>>>> NY Times: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >>>>>>>>>>>> You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>>>>> 881501/ >>>>>>>>>>>> You can read what the public is saying on Twitter >>>>>>>>>>>> at the link below >>>>>>>>>>>> that does a real time search: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>>>>>>>>>>> If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you >>>>>>>>>>>> press the number 2 >>>>>>>>>>>> (for heading level 2) it will take you directly to >>>>>>>>>>>> the comments that >>>>>>>>>>>> people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> Mika >>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter Micro blog: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>>>>>>>>>>> Facebook: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://profile.to/mika >>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Could someone provide more info or links to more >>>>>>>>>>>>> info concerning >>>>>>>>>>>>> this particular situation? I think it would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> extremely helpful to >>>>>>>>>>>>> understand if this is a spoof directed >>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically at blindness, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>>>>>>>>>>>> segments of this nature concerning the election >>>>>>>>>>>>> on the show, certain >>>>>>>>>>>>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to >>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps heighten >>>>>>>>>>>>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>> wondering as I said what >>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Courtney >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this segment of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> SNL. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> someday I want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gov. Paerson for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> any reason. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CONTACT: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Blind, said: "The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness itself, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about blindness and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incapable of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disoriented and befuddled is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to portray Governor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> almost exclusively on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his >>>>>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an attack on all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind seniors, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Afghanistan. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> producers of Saturday >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ### >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> l >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your account info >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>>>>>>>>>>> your account info >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> m >>>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >>>>>>>>>>>> your account info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> % >>>>>>>>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> 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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 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>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 19:53:36 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:53:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] State Student Division Materials Message-ID: <956189FF9F824482BD8B5C6E93AF0E64@MonkeyPaw> Dear state division representatives: We need a few items from you to ensure the upcoming NABS web site contains up-to-date information on your state division. 1. Does your division have a web site? If so, please send us the URL to this web site or web page to be included in our list. 2. If you have not already done so, please send us a list of upcoming events. Please include event name, date, time and location and any other relevant information to be made a part of the NABS Calendar of Events. This information can be added later, after the launch, but if you have information now, we would love to make it a part of the site right away. 3. Do you have any photographs and/or videos of your division at work? Send them to me off-list. We will include them on the NABS site where appropriate. Thank you for your cooperation. We are now only days from the unveiling of the NABS web site, and we are counting on you to make the first launch a good one. Regards, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 08:52:55 2008 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 03:52:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) Message-ID: <63af025c0812270052r2420be72q2fd0b263896ba13f@mail.gmail.com> Hi there, I'm new to this list, but certainly not new to being a blind student. My name is Jamie and I live in Florida. I was just wondering if anyone who reads this mailing list is a member of FABS. I've been trying to become a member for a long time now, especially as I noticed how.... well, how many problems exist (in my opinion and in the opinion of a number of others I've talked to) for blind students in local high schools and colleges, how poor the state's rehabilitation centers for the blind are, and how little is being done about this... But there's nothing on our state's NABS website that explains how to join, and when I e-mailed all the officers, I never got any reply. I've actually heard from other blind students who have tried to join that the group is rather inactive, and I think something can definitely be done about this. So are there any Floridians out there? -Jamie From docjohnson76 at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 01:15:22 2008 From: docjohnson76 at gmail.com (Ashley Johnson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:15:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sending e-mails Message-ID: <3d4927ff0812271715jd3c0ffeub63867ecfbe883fb@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I am an old member of this list but have been having trouble sending e-mails. This is just a test to see if it is working. Thanks Ashley From docjohnson76 at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 01:17:10 2008 From: docjohnson76 at gmail.com (Ashley Johnson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:17:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) In-Reply-To: <63af025c0812270052r2420be72q2fd0b263896ba13f@mail.gmail.com> References: <63af025c0812270052r2420be72q2fd0b263896ba13f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3d4927ff0812271717w387eb13as4c18efbc02e6c207@mail.gmail.com> Jamie, It's funny that you asked this question. I actually joined FABS at the NFBF convention this past May. I paid my dues and since then I have received only one phone call from the President. That was to verify my phone number. Since then, nothing has happened. I actually one of the board members of FABS, and she has tried to contact the president of FABS, and she has not heard back from her. I agree, this is a much needed group, but unfortunately it seems the people in charge are not very active. Ashley On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Jamie Principato wrote: > Hi there, > > I'm new to this list, but certainly not new to being a blind student. My > name is Jamie and I live in Florida. I was just wondering if anyone who > reads this mailing list is a member of FABS. I've been trying to become a > member for a long time now, especially as I noticed how.... well, how many > problems exist (in my opinion and in the opinion of a number of others I've > talked to) for blind students in local high schools and colleges, how poor > the state's rehabilitation centers for the blind are, and how little is > being done about this... But there's nothing on our state's NABS website > that explains how to join, and when I e-mailed all the officers, I never > got > any reply. I've actually heard from other blind students who have tried to > join that the group is rather inactive, and I think something can > definitely > be done about this. So are there any Floridians out there? > > -Jamie > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnson.2774%40osu.edu > From oceanrls at hotmail.com Sun Dec 28 01:44:41 2008 From: oceanrls at hotmail.com (rachel shepherd) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:44:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) References: <63af025c0812270052r2420be72q2fd0b263896ba13f@mail.gmail.com> <3d4927ff0812271717w387eb13as4c18efbc02e6c207@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My name is Rachel, and I am on the board of fund raising for FABS. I am very sorry to say that this group has been very inactive. I have tried many times to get things going, but nothing has changed. I looked forward to being a part of this group last year, and have now become very disappointed. So much does need to be done, and I'm not sure how to make these things happen when we can not get a hold of the president of the group. Rachel Jacobs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Johnson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) > Jamie, > It's funny that you asked this question. I actually joined FABS at > the > NFBF convention this past May. I paid my dues and since then I have > received only one phone call from the President. That was to verify my > phone number. Since then, nothing has happened. I actually one of the > board members of FABS, and she has tried to contact the president of FABS, > and she has not heard back from her. I agree, this is a much needed > group, > but unfortunately it seems the people in charge are not very active. > > Ashley > > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Jamie Principato > wrote: > >> Hi there, >> >> I'm new to this list, but certainly not new to being a blind student. My >> name is Jamie and I live in Florida. I was just wondering if anyone who >> reads this mailing list is a member of FABS. I've been trying to become a >> member for a long time now, especially as I noticed how.... well, how >> many >> problems exist (in my opinion and in the opinion of a number of others >> I've >> talked to) for blind students in local high schools and colleges, how >> poor >> the state's rehabilitation centers for the blind are, and how little is >> being done about this... But there's nothing on our state's NABS website >> that explains how to join, and when I e-mailed all the officers, I never >> got >> any reply. I've actually heard from other blind students who have tried >> to >> join that the group is rather inactive, and I think something can >> definitely >> be done about this. So are there any Floridians out there? >> >> -Jamie >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnson.2774%40osu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oceanrls%40hotmail.com > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 02:11:49 2008 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:11:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) In-Reply-To: <3d4927ff0812271717w387eb13as4c18efbc02e6c207@mail.gmail.com> References: <63af025c0812270052r2420be72q2fd0b263896ba13f@mail.gmail.com> <3d4927ff0812271717w387eb13as4c18efbc02e6c207@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63af025c0812271811q63f16148rc78c471e423e812c@mail.gmail.com> This is bittersweet. I'm both glad and disappointed to find that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Disappointed for obvious reasons. We can do better than this. Glad because it means I'm not going crazy, lol, and may actually have some backing to try to improve things. I know many blind students across Florida. I have friends in college who are finding they need to drop their majors because the higher level maths aren't being made accessible for them. I know others who are being forced to use unreliable paratransit either because the local vocational rehabilitation centers wont provide them with better mobility training or because they have been lead to believe it is the only way they can travel. I know students who are setteling for community college because their local high school vision department would not properly accomodate them, sheltering rather than helping, and therefore they could not earn all the required credits for university admission. I experienced first hand a rehabilitation day center that is so corrupt, they spent a month and a half teaching their partially sighted teenage group how to microwave hot pockets, insisting that we need to learn to do these simple things because cooking full meals for ourselves is just too difficult and dangerous for "the visually impaired". This center in particular spends more time focusing on "coping with vision loss and what you can't do" than it does showing you how much you can do regardless of your vision impairment. I could go on forever about this one issue, but it is these and other things that made me want to join FABS, and now make me more eager to make FABS a strong, active force in the blindness community of Florida. On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Ashley Johnson wrote: > Jamie, > It's funny that you asked this question. I actually joined FABS at the > NFBF convention this past May. I paid my dues and since then I have > received only one phone call from the President. That was to verify my > phone number. Since then, nothing has happened. I actually one of the > board members of FABS, and she has tried to contact the president of FABS, > and she has not heard back from her. I agree, this is a much needed group, > but unfortunately it seems the people in charge are not very active. > > Ashley > > On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Jamie Principato >wrote: > > > Hi there, > > > > I'm new to this list, but certainly not new to being a blind student. My > > name is Jamie and I live in Florida. I was just wondering if anyone who > > reads this mailing list is a member of FABS. I've been trying to become a > > member for a long time now, especially as I noticed how.... well, how > many > > problems exist (in my opinion and in the opinion of a number of others > I've > > talked to) for blind students in local high schools and colleges, how > poor > > the state's rehabilitation centers for the blind are, and how little is > > being done about this... But there's nothing on our state's NABS website > > that explains how to join, and when I e-mailed all the officers, I never > > got > > any reply. I've actually heard from other blind students who have tried > to > > join that the group is rather inactive, and I think something can > > definitely > > be done about this. So are there any Floridians out there? > > > > -Jamie > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnson.2774%40osu.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From oceanrls at hotmail.com Sun Dec 28 02:22:30 2008 From: oceanrls at hotmail.com (rachel Jacobs) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:22:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sending e-mails References: <3d4927ff0812271715jd3c0ffeub63867ecfbe883fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It worked! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Sending e-mails > Hello, > I am an old member of this list but have been having trouble sending > e-mails. This is just a test to see if it is working. > > Thanks > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oceanrls%40hotmail.com > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 03:00:53 2008 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:00:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sending e-mails References: <3d4927ff0812271715jd3c0ffeub63867ecfbe883fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001f01c96898$7feac5e0$2d01a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Hi your message came threw. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Sending e-mails > Hello, > I am an old member of this list but have been having trouble sending > e-mails. This is just a test to see if it is working. > > Thanks > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 03:01:39 2008 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:01:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New Perkins Brailler In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <170FA48DDFA04B06A6B907DC6F538B26@sarahd0fffdcf6> Interesting . I still have my old one somewhare. I put extended keys on it as my hands are getting a bit weaker over time. Take care. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ruby Polk (by way of David Andrews) Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:54 AM To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] New Perkins Brailler NEW PERKINS BRAILLER >From the Editor of the Matilda Ziegler Magazine for the blind. To All Readers: It's a sunny morning in Watertown, MA, with a temperature in the mid-60s and Mother Nature in the midst of her glorious autumnal show of color. I'm on the well-manicured campus of Perkins School for the Blind, where I have come for the introduction of a redesigned icon. Today would be the first opportunity for Perkins students- and me--to see the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler. I entered the stately Howe Building and made my way over squeaky-clean tile floors to the auditorium, where students were awaiting the start of the presentation. Standing in front of a large, round wooden table was David Morgan, general manager of Perkins Products, the entity responsible for re-thinking the brailler. On the table sat four of his brand-new creations, and David showed me the brailler's finer points as we discussed the design process. He explained that Perkins Products began conceptualizing an updated brailler about three years ago, but the "real work" started a year later, with intensive user research in places like India, Mexico, South Africa and Malawi. Researchers heard how dust and dirt can jam the machines in India, how teachers in Malawi have just one brailler to pass around an entire school, and how American users wished for something easier to carry. Perkins engineers paid close attention to these comments, and they responded by making their next-generation brailler more portable, with a lighter weight and a smaller size. This machine weighs about 25 percent, or three pounds, less, and its footprint has been reduced, with dimensions that are 12 inches long, 10 inches wide and six inches high. A new built-in handle in the base is easy to grip. The brailler's keys have been redesigned to require less force, so the machine is more comfortable to use over a longer period of time. Keys are now lower to the table surface, making it easier to position fingers comfortably. The color of the keys has been changed to white, which contrasts with the brailler's colorful body, aiding those with low vision. The new machine is less noisy, and it has a muted end-of-line bell. At the back of the brailler is a retractable reading rest, which holds the paper flat, making it easier to proofread. Located on the front of the machine, margin guides are easier to grasp and hold. These are now easily accessible, and do not require reaching around to the back. The paper-feed knobs have a flatter shape, making them easier to hold and turn. This brailler takes paper up to 8-1/2 inches wide and 14 inches long. I'm sure braillists will appreciate these many improvements, but I'm betting that the most popular feature will be the easy-erase button. Simply depressing one key deletes an incorrect cell, letting the user braille over the original one. As you might expect, the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler, its official name, looks and feels very different from the classic version, which Perkins will continue to sell. Although the original design is cherished, it went unchanged for 57 years, and Perkins thought they were losing a lot of young people with it--that it wasn't quite "cool enough," according to David. Hip or not, the engineers saw no need to do a complete redesign, he said. They kept everything that was great about the original and put it in new packaging, making the machine lighter and more portable. Those familiar with the classic know it is constructed of heavy-duty metal. The next- generation brailler still has mostly all-metal construction inside, and the same embossing mechanisms, but the exterior shell is made of ABS plastic. This polycarbonate is a high-impact engineered plastic, like that used on aircraft. Perkins Products believes this plastic will prove to be more durable. It certainly is more colorful, as the brailler's exterior housing comes in a vivid shade similar to sky blue. This color, known as APH blue, will be the only one available until the spring, when there will be two more color choices: raspberry and midnight blue. How did the color and initials of American Printing House for the Blind end up on a Perkins product? David explained that APH actually had started designing its own brailler a few years ago. After learning that Perkins was already redesigning the classic brailler, APH decided to shelve its project. They joined forces with the school and supported Perkins's redesign by underwriting much of the research and development costs. In exchange for the Printing House's contribution, the letters a p and h were added to the brailler's name, and APH blue was the first color to be offered. They also have exclusive distribution rights within the United States and U.S. territories for the first six months of the product launch. Buyers using Federal Quota Funds will have to make their purchases through APH. By spring 2009, however, Perkins Products expects that all the resellers who carried its braillers in the past will offer the new one. The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler came on the United States market in October at a price of $650, which, refreshingly, is $40 less than the classic. It has a warranty of one year on parts and labor. International orders will be accepted after the first of the year. For developing countries with lower and middle incomes, purchase subsidies will be available, as they are for the classic model. Some of the next-generation braillers will undoubtedly end up back in the country where they were made. While the components are mostly American, some parts are sourced from southeast Asia. Final assembly takes place in India at an ISO 9001 factory, which meets U.S. standards, and about 80 percent of its workers have some kind of disability. Perkins Products has developed a marketing strategy for this brailler, the centerpiece of which is a special Web site. Perkinsbrailler.org features a song written especially for the brailler by blind recording artist Raul Midon. His "Next Generation" is a very catchy tune, and if you like it enough, you can even download a ringtone to your cell phone. After the marketing presentation was concluded, David left the Howe Building with me. I asked him what the next project is for Perkins Products, and found out that an electric version of the redesigned brailler will be coming to market in a year or so. I then asked how the introduction has been going for this brailler. David said he's pleased that the machine has generated a great deal of attention, and thinks that sales will be stimulated as word gets out. With obvious pride, he mentioned that professionals in the blindness field have called the Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler "revolutionary." As we said our goodbyes, David added a final thought: "If it builds interest and excitement for braille, then it's done its job." The Next Generation Perkins/APH Brailler certainly is a great present for Louis Braille's 200th birthday in January-or this month it could even be a nice holiday gift for yourself or someone very special. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From liz.bottner at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 03:11:12 2008 From: liz.bottner at gmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:11:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sending e-mails In-Reply-To: <3d4927ff0812271715jd3c0ffeub63867ecfbe883fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3d4927ff0812271715jd3c0ffeub63867ecfbe883fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4956ee29.0807c00a.3173.ffffd978@mx.google.com> Ashley, I got your message, so I would say that it works! Take care, Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com From jp100 at earthlink.net Sun Dec 28 18:33:03 2008 From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:33:03 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question In-Reply-To: <4520D7337B7C4CEB829FC84CEEB7DC18@davee984e49f02> References: <4520D7337B7C4CEB829FC84CEEB7DC18@davee984e49f02> Message-ID: <001e01c9691a$c823b7e0$586b27a0$@net> Hello everyone, I know some of you have Myspace accounts. Here's my question. Lately, every time I want to log in to my account (I have one of those musician's accounts), it's asking me to type in one of those verification capcha deals. This is even after I type in my password. Does anyone know what is going on? Jim Portillo From dianefilipe at peoplepc.com Sun Dec 28 18:40:58 2008 From: dianefilipe at peoplepc.com (Diane) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:40:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question In-Reply-To: <001e01c9691a$c823b7e0$586b27a0$@net> References: <4520D7337B7C4CEB829FC84CEEB7DC18@davee984e49f02> <001e01c9691a$c823b7e0$586b27a0$@net> Message-ID: <13F4F7092B664F5C982E24C30285649C@DianePC> hi Jim! The capcha's are used to prevent viruses and spam. Only a human can read them, not a computer. Di ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" ; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" ; "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question > Hello everyone, > > I know some of you have Myspace accounts. Here's my question. > Lately, every time I want to log in to my account (I have one of those > musician's accounts), it's asking me to type in one of those verification > capcha deals. This is even after I type in my password. Does anyone know > what is going on? > Jim Portillo > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40peoplepc.com > From jp100 at earthlink.net Sun Dec 28 19:30:59 2008 From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:30:59 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question In-Reply-To: <13F4F7092B664F5C982E24C30285649C@DianePC> References: <4520D7337B7C4CEB829FC84CEEB7DC18@davee984e49f02> <001e01c9691a$c823b7e0$586b27a0$@net> <13F4F7092B664F5C982E24C30285649C@DianePC> Message-ID: <000001c96922$d1539490$73fabdb0$@net> Thanks. Yeah, I was aware of that. What is new is that one has to deal with these even if they type in the correct password. That's why I was wondering if others have encountered this lately. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Diane Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 10:41 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] myspace question hi Jim! The capcha's are used to prevent viruses and spam. Only a human can read them, not a computer. Di ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" ; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" ; "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question > Hello everyone, > > I know some of you have Myspace accounts. Here's my question. > Lately, every time I want to log in to my account (I have one of those > musician's accounts), it's asking me to type in one of those verification > capcha deals. This is even after I type in my password. Does anyone know > what is going on? > Jim Portillo > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40people pc.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.ne t From dianefilipe at peoplepc.com Sun Dec 28 19:39:05 2008 From: dianefilipe at peoplepc.com (Diane) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:39:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question In-Reply-To: <000001c96922$d1539490$73fabdb0$@net> References: <4520D7337B7C4CEB829FC84CEEB7DC18@davee984e49f02> <001e01c9691a$c823b7e0$586b27a0$@net><13F4F7092B664F5C982E24C30285649C@DianePC> <000001c96922$d1539490$73fabdb0$@net> Message-ID: <8A3F6979898049BA97034522078FADB5@DianePC> I think it might be profile specific, depending on who you are writing to. Di ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] myspace question > Thanks. Yeah, I was aware of that. > What is new is that one has to deal with these even if they type in the > correct password. That's why I was wondering if others have encountered > this lately. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Diane > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 10:41 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] myspace question > > hi Jim! > The capcha's are used to prevent viruses and spam. Only a human can read > them, not a computer. > Di > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim" > To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" ; "'National > Association of Blind Students mailing list'" ; "'NFBnet > NFBCS Mailing List'" > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:33 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question > > >> Hello everyone, >> >> I know some of you have Myspace accounts. Here's my question. >> Lately, every time I want to log in to my account (I have one of those >> musician's accounts), it's asking me to type in one of those verification >> capcha deals. This is even after I type in my password. Does anyone >> know >> what is going on? >> Jim Portillo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40people > pc.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.ne > t > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40peoplepc.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Dec 28 22:06:03 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:06:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) Message-ID: <7450411.1230501964313.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Hi Jamie, Those are some sad situations. The blind students I know seemed to do fine in college. Of course they had some struggles but not blindness related. In VA I know students going to big state schools including Longwood and George Mason and Mary Washington. I also know some at smaller schools like Christopher Newport University, William and Mary, and the community college. We have the Department for the blind with six regional offices; these offices employ O and M instructors. So if you need orientation to college you can get it. You can also get general O and M training too; they come to your home and practice in the community. I get the impression mobility instructors encourage everyone to use busses and mass transit. They tell you about paratransit but show you the bus system and its benefits too. But in smaller communities or rural areas of the state of VA there are not as many services and therefore blind students suffer by not being taught regularly. I hope things improve in Florida. As to the student division here the Virginia student group has the same problem. It is inactive. The president was not responsive. I became disappointed as you and Ashley did. So you are not alone. I recommend you contact your state president who hopefully will contact the existing Florida Association of Blind Students president. If he/she does not respond, elect a new one next state convention. Good luck. The VABS board fell apart. No one communicated. We have a VABS list that is inactive. So the only personal contact I have with college blind students is at state convention. Take care, Ashley -----Original Message----- >From: Jamie Principato >Sent: Dec 27, 2008 9:11 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) > >This is bittersweet. I'm both glad and disappointed to find that I'm not the >only one who has noticed this. Disappointed for obvious reasons. We can do >better than this. Glad because it means I'm not going crazy, lol, and may >actually have some backing to try to improve things. I know many blind >students across Florida. I have friends in college who are finding they need >to drop their majors because the higher level maths aren't being made >accessible for them. I know others who are being forced to use unreliable >paratransit either because the local vocational rehabilitation centers wont >provide them with better mobility training or because they have been lead to >believe it is the only way they can travel. I know students who are >setteling for community college because their local high school vision >department would not properly accomodate them, sheltering rather than >helping, and therefore they could not earn all the required credits for >university admission. I experienced first hand a rehabilitation day center >that is so corrupt, they spent a month and a half teaching their partially >sighted teenage group how to microwave hot pockets, insisting that we need >to learn to do these simple things because cooking full meals for ourselves >is just too difficult and dangerous for "the visually impaired". This center >in particular spends more time focusing on "coping with vision loss and what >you can't do" than it does showing you how much you can do regardless of >your vision impairment. I could go on forever about this one issue, but it >is these and other things that made me want to join FABS, and now make me >more eager to make FABS a strong, active force in the blindness community of >Florida. > >On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Ashley Johnson wrote: > >> Jamie, >> It's funny that you asked this question. I actually joined FABS at the >> NFBF convention this past May. I paid my dues and since then I have >> received only one phone call from the President. That was to verify my >> phone number. Since then, nothing has happened. I actually one of the >> board members of FABS, and she has tried to contact the president of FABS, >> and she has not heard back from her. I agree, this is a much needed group, >> but unfortunately it seems the people in charge are not very active. >> >> Ashley >> >> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Jamie Principato > >wrote: >> >> > Hi there, >> > >> > I'm new to this list, but certainly not new to being a blind student. My >> > name is Jamie and I live in Florida. I was just wondering if anyone who >> > reads this mailing list is a member of FABS. I've been trying to become a >> > member for a long time now, especially as I noticed how.... well, how >> many >> > problems exist (in my opinion and in the opinion of a number of others >> I've >> > talked to) for blind students in local high schools and colleges, how >> poor >> > the state's rehabilitation centers for the blind are, and how little is >> > being done about this... But there's nothing on our state's NABS website >> > that explains how to join, and when I e-mailed all the officers, I never >> > got >> > any reply. I've actually heard from other blind students who have tried >> to >> > join that the group is rather inactive, and I think something can >> > definitely >> > be done about this. So are there any Floridians out there? >> > >> > -Jamie >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnson.2774%40osu.edu >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net Merry Christmas and Happy New Year From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 22:07:45 2008 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:07:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Photo Submissions for NABS Site Message-ID: <3F19BECA6FCC47D2B5A4ACBCD833DB55@MonkeyPaw> Dear students, Thank you to those student divisions who have submitted photographs for the NABS web site. In order to keep a cohesive system, please ensure that your photos are accompanied by a brief description of what the photograph displays. Also, please ensure the file itself is titled in such a way as to make matching between the description and image an easy task. Submissions not meeting this criteria will not be considered for inclusion on the site. Thank you again, and if you have not yet submitted information, photographs or other details of your state division, now is the time to do so. Regards, Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie From passionflower505 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 00:22:39 2008 From: passionflower505 at yahoo.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:22:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] washington seminar room mate Message-ID: <601414.38012.qm@web65606.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I am currently in a room with two other girls, and we are seeking to find another female who has not yet made arrangements. We will be in from Saturday night through Monday night of washington seminar. If you think you would be interested or if you know a female who has not yet found people to stay with, please contact me off list so we can talk more. Cindy From phillip.gross at austin.rr.com Mon Dec 29 00:24:59 2008 From: phillip.gross at austin.rr.com (Phillip Gross) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:24:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question In-Reply-To: <13F4F7092B664F5C982E24C30285649C@DianePC> References: <4520D7337B7C4CEB829FC84CEEB7DC18@davee984e49f02> <001e01c9691a$c823b7e0$586b27a0$@net> <13F4F7092B664F5C982E24C30285649C@DianePC> Message-ID: If you will use firefox you can get a plug in that will read the captcha and put it on your clipboard so that you can paste it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Diane Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 12:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] myspace question hi Jim! The capcha's are used to prevent viruses and spam. Only a human can read them, not a computer. Di ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" To: "'NFBnet Blind Talk Mailing List'" ; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" ; "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: [nabs-l] myspace question > Hello everyone, > > I know some of you have Myspace accounts. Here's my question. > Lately, every time I want to log in to my account (I have one of those > musician's accounts), it's asking me to type in one of those verification > capcha deals. This is even after I type in my password. Does anyone know > what is going on? > Jim Portillo > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40people pc.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/phillip.gross%40aust in.rr.com From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 01:13:21 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:13:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar Message-ID: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> When is the meeting? I don't remember hearing anything about it. I'm planning on being in Baltimore the 6th & 7th, so if it is one of those days, I'll see about coming. From jj at bestmidi.com Mon Dec 29 02:43:19 2008 From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:43:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar References: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <54DE169CC3C341AFA5A3480DB7308B36@jsquared> Hello. The NABS seminar will be held on Sunday, February 8. I hope you can join us. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Spaulding" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:13 PM Subject: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar > When is the meeting? I don't remember hearing anything about it. I'm > planning on being in Baltimore the 6th & 7th, so if it is one of those > days, > I'll see about coming. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 03:04:29 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:04:29 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) In-Reply-To: <7450411.1230501964313.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7450411.1230501964313.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hello, Floridians and others, I'm thrilled to see how interested Jamie, Ashley, and Rachel are in strengthening the Florida Association of Blind Students and making things better for blind students in Florida. I myself was the president of the state student division in Arizona for four years and I can attest to the great need we have for blind students to band together to change things in all our states, and becoming active in a state division can be greatly enjoyable. >From my experiences as a state division president, I'll say that the president is certainly accountable to respond to and communicate with the division members. However, the presidency is a volunteer job and it is often a struggle to balance student division responsibilities with school, work, family and other obligations. That's why even the best student division president sometimes needs to get a little kick in the pants from the membership every once in a while to stay on-task. If you wan to ensure the division stays active, feel free to keep contacting your president and ask him/her what is happening with the division. As members or even future members of the division, however, you have the power to do more than just bug the president. If you have ideas for specific events the division could run or problems it should tackle, bring those specific issues to the president's attention. It's great that three of you are on the NABS list--I'd encourage you guys to talk by email, phone, or even in person to brainstorm some practical ideas for the division. Enlist help from your state president (Kathy Davis) or local chapter presidents too. They may have experience tackling some of these problems already--for example, they may have already tried to work with the Hot Pocket training center and can give you names of specific people there to talk to. If you come to the president of your student division with some solid suggestions for division activities, he/she is much more likely to take you seriously and work with you. Even better, volunteer to chair an event or provide a crucial element such as getting an item donated for a fund-raiser. Over the years in Arizona my board and I received many ideas and suggestions from members about things the student division should do. Some of those ideas panned out and others didn't. Over time the ones that other people offered to help with were more likely to work out. The president and board bear the brunt of the responsibility for making division activities happen, but sometimes they can't do it without work from the members as well. So certainly continue to attempt contact with your president, and if you can't after several attempts, bring your ideas to the state affiliate president. Student division presidents report directly to the president of the state affiliate, and the affiliate will also remain even after a new student president is elected. Above all, don't give up. Many student divisions go through cycles of activity and inactivity over time, for many reasons, but all strong divisions rely on a core of dedicated and motivated students. By networking and working with one another, the three of you can form a strong core for the rest of the division to thrive on. Feel free to talk with any of us on the NABS board if you have questions or concerns about your student division. My email address is Arielle71 at gmail.com And I am willing to give my phone number to you off-list if you wish. I hope this is helpful to those of you in other states as well as in Florida. Have a happy New Year and see many of you in Washington! Arielle Silverman First Vice-President National Association of Blind Students On 12/29/08, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi Jamie, > > Those are some sad situations. The blind students I know seemed to do fine > in college. Of course they had some struggles but not blindness related. > In VA I know students going to big state schools including Longwood and > George Mason and Mary Washington. I also know some at smaller schools like > Christopher Newport University, William and Mary, and the community college. > We have the Department for the blind with six regional offices; these > offices employ O and M instructors. So if you need orientation to college > you can get it. You can also get general O and M training too; they come to > your home and practice in the community. I get the impression mobility > instructors encourage everyone to use busses and mass transit. They tell > you about paratransit but show you the bus system and its benefits too. But > in smaller communities or rural areas of the state of VA there are not as > many services and therefore blind students suffer by not being taught > regularly. I hope things improve in Florida. > > As to the student division here the Virginia student group has the same > problem. It is inactive. The president was not responsive. I became > disappointed as you and Ashley did. So you are not alone. I recommend you > contact your state president who hopefully will contact the existing Florida > Association of Blind Students president. If he/she does not respond, elect > a new one next state convention. Good luck. The VABS board fell apart. No > one communicated. We have a VABS list that is inactive. So the only > personal contact I have with college blind students is at state convention. > > Take care, > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Jamie Principato >>Sent: Dec 27, 2008 9:11 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Florida Association of Blind Students (FABS) >> >>This is bittersweet. I'm both glad and disappointed to find that I'm not >> the >>only one who has noticed this. Disappointed for obvious reasons. We can do >>better than this. Glad because it means I'm not going crazy, lol, and may >>actually have some backing to try to improve things. I know many blind >>students across Florida. I have friends in college who are finding they >> need >>to drop their majors because the higher level maths aren't being made >>accessible for them. I know others who are being forced to use unreliable >>paratransit either because the local vocational rehabilitation centers wont >>provide them with better mobility training or because they have been lead >> to >>believe it is the only way they can travel. I know students who are >>setteling for community college because their local high school vision >>department would not properly accomodate them, sheltering rather than >>helping, and therefore they could not earn all the required credits for >>university admission. I experienced first hand a rehabilitation day center >>that is so corrupt, they spent a month and a half teaching their partially >>sighted teenage group how to microwave hot pockets, insisting that we need >>to learn to do these simple things because cooking full meals for ourselves >>is just too difficult and dangerous for "the visually impaired". This >> center >>in particular spends more time focusing on "coping with vision loss and >> what >>you can't do" than it does showing you how much you can do regardless of >>your vision impairment. I could go on forever about this one issue, but it >>is these and other things that made me want to join FABS, and now make me >>more eager to make FABS a strong, active force in the blindness community >> of >>Florida. >> >>On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Ashley Johnson >> wrote: >> >>> Jamie, >>> It's funny that you asked this question. I actually joined FABS at >>> the >>> NFBF convention this past May. I paid my dues and since then I have >>> received only one phone call from the President. That was to verify my >>> phone number. Since then, nothing has happened. I actually one of the >>> board members of FABS, and she has tried to contact the president of >>> FABS, >>> and she has not heard back from her. I agree, this is a much needed >>> group, >>> but unfortunately it seems the people in charge are not very active. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:52 AM, Jamie Principato >> >wrote: >>> >>> > Hi there, >>> > >>> > I'm new to this list, but certainly not new to being a blind student. >>> > My >>> > name is Jamie and I live in Florida. I was just wondering if anyone who >>> > reads this mailing list is a member of FABS. I've been trying to become >>> > a >>> > member for a long time now, especially as I noticed how.... well, how >>> many >>> > problems exist (in my opinion and in the opinion of a number of others >>> I've >>> > talked to) for blind students in local high schools and colleges, how >>> poor >>> > the state's rehabilitation centers for the blind are, and how little is >>> > being done about this... But there's nothing on our state's NABS >>> > website >>> > that explains how to join, and when I e-mailed all the officers, I >>> > never >>> > got >>> > any reply. I've actually heard from other blind students who have tried >>> to >>> > join that the group is rather inactive, and I think something can >>> > definitely >>> > be done about this. So are there any Floridians out there? >>> > >>> > -Jamie >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnson.2774%40osu.edu >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 03:06:43 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:06:43 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar In-Reply-To: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> References: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Scott and all, The Washington Seminar schedule is a little different this year. We'll be having the NABS meeting on Sunday, Feb. 8. The Great Gathering-In meeting will be on Sunday evening rather than on Monday night as in the past. Congressional appointments will be Monday-Wednesday; talk to your state president for details about when your appointments are scheduled. Arielle On 12/29/08, Scott Spaulding wrote: > When is the meeting? I don't remember hearing anything about it. I'm > planning on being in Baltimore the 6th & 7th, so if it is one of those days, > I'll see about coming. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 04:09:54 2008 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:09:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Who's GOing To Washintton? References: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0FF0295D3834479DAB2FBAAF21D2B769@angelo> Just wanted to check in and see who might be going. There's a chance I'll get to go with Blind Inc, and I plan to attend the student gathering there, and am curious to see if anyone I know from here will be there. >From David From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 04:25:58 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:25:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar In-Reply-To: References: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <49585164.073e400a.3a93.ffffb927@mx.google.com> What time on the 8th will the nabs meeting be held? I think I'll be able to make it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 10:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar Hi Scott and all, The Washington Seminar schedule is a little different this year. We'll be having the NABS meeting on Sunday, Feb. 8. The Great Gathering-In meeting will be on Sunday evening rather than on Monday night as in the past. Congressional appointments will be Monday-Wednesday; talk to your state president for details about when your appointments are scheduled. Arielle On 12/29/08, Scott Spaulding wrote: > When is the meeting? I don't remember hearing anything about it. I'm > planning on being in Baltimore the 6th & 7th, so if it is one of those days, > I'll see about coming. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1867 - Release Date: 12/28/2008 2:23 PM From spaulding.scott at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 05:52:21 2008 From: spaulding.scott at gmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:52:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Who's Going To Washington? In-Reply-To: <0FF0295D3834479DAB2FBAAF21D2B769@angelo> References: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> <0FF0295D3834479DAB2FBAAF21D2B769@angelo> Message-ID: <495865a2.232d400a.7d35.2377@mx.google.com> I am planning on being at the national center that weekend for an R&D committee meeting, so provided I can get transportation and flights to work out, then I plan to be there. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David Dunphy Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Who's GOing To Washintton? Just wanted to check in and see who might be going. There's a chance I'll get to go with Blind Inc, and I plan to attend the student gathering there, and am curious to see if anyone I know from here will be there. >From David _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spaulding.scott%40gm ail.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1867 - Release Date: 12/28/2008 2:23 PM From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 18:22:04 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:22:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Education: Public and Private Message-ID: <49591575.151e640a.27ab.74bc@mx.google.com> Greetings All, I have just caught up a bit after the holidays and family time to the continued thread on the SNL posts. I think (I hope-smile) I have already said enough for my pieces. I want to say I have enjoyed the eloquence and thoughtfulness of so many of you-it solidifies my optimism for the future of our continued progress as a group of people and as an organization. I would like to add one thought on the use of a cane and the idea of it impeding Governor Patterson's ability or inability to have his job. Since he was not actually elected-we do not know from his example how difficult or in what way his blindness might have been a factor in an election. It was not enough to prevent the Governor candidate he ran with as a candidate for Lt. Gov. from getting elected. I imagine now it will be his record as Governor that will be the major factor if he seeks re-election. The people of New York especially do have some new good ideas about blindness because of him just being Governor, and he is in fact doing the job, and apparently from where I sit and can tell out here in Minnesota is doing a rather fine job and especially so in a rather particularly challenging time. One of our toughest (and maybe even a primary trouble all along) challenges is our terribly small population and very minority status. We all know from experience that many are judged by the actions of one; the public often bases many of their ideas on the one blind person they know-for the good or for the not so good. Many in the public base their ideas of blindness on the portrayals of the blind in film and literature as well and have no alternative experience with a successful blind person in real life. Or the alternative experience they do have either reinforces the stereotypes or rather than shattering the stereotypes, they conclude the one blind person they know to be an exception and an inspiration rather than a rule(whether or not the blind person is actually skilled in alternative techniques. they think of that one blind person they know as amazing compared to the bumbling or tragic presentation in literature and film simply because they can do basic self care things independently). My experiences teach me this: Every time one of you is out in public or with another (perhaps less independent or skilled in alternative techniques) blind person, whether or not you are trying to, you are teaching something. I think if Governor Patterson was skilled in cane use, and did use it (not necessarily without still using sighted guide with he himself making the decision and directing from a point of strength when appropriate or more convenient or reasonable for the situation) it would not in itself alone impede him. It would be giving people new ideas about the cane. And that is what we need the public and some blind people to have: a new understanding. The question is if he would appear "blinder" using a cane, using Braille in giving speeches, or even if say he had an eye condition where his eyes visibly looked different with a lot of rolling or scarring or something like that and if that would be rejected by the public at large or if eventually accepted because his performance was so normal or above normal. Indeed the more "blinder" in truth in using alternative techniques someone appeared, rather than looking "blinder" by exhibiting the stereotypes, is what we hope for isn't it? I recall an experience with a foreign exchange student we had last year who at the time would have rather been dead (his words) than be seen in public using the cane because of what people thought about it. He and my son went to the mall. My son was alone, with his cane, ordering something in the food court. A little girl was overheard asking her mother what the white stick was. The mother was over heard replying that "he was blind". Well, that little girl just got a new idea about what blindness meant. Here was a normal teenage guy in most appearances, ordering and paying for his own stuff and finding a table and eating.etc. and he had a cane and he was blind. To that child, well she now carries that image too when she thinks of "blind". I hope my son does, yes does, look blind to people, as blind as he really is-and with that gives them a new definition or idea about what blindness is. I admit some disappointment at the opportunity lost if Patterson used a cane with skill. I do not think at all that it could impede in this case now anyway-he already has the job. In the end we are working toward the cane not being a factor. How will we ever get there if blind people en masse hide or reject its use in public in order to better get a foot in the door? Many thought blackness would impede Obama's chances, including many black people. And truly there was a day when blackness alone would have. Now if he was found to be corrupt, or inarticulate, or incompetent on the issues he would not likely be our next President. Likewise today I think a blind person has a better than ever chance (with using a cane or Braille and being obviously blind) can rise up and get others beyond it and educate. It will be somewhat easier now overall, even though Patterson may not be skilled in Braille or the cane, because he has shown that a blind person can do the job. I hope some others will run for office, and if they lose in the end I think it will primarily be because they failed to demonstrate leadership and a command of the issues and to speak to the people. I think it is a factor in people's minds-no doubt. I think even some may dismiss him doing the job as an exception. Some too may only accept by thinking he has more sighted help in the actual governorship than he has. They might think this whatever techniques he used. Overall he has in the end I think helped break a ceiling. The blind candidate will likely have to perhaps demonstrate a superior qualification, just as the first black nominee for president had to demonstrate a higher mark than I believe others had to, but if the candidate him or herself is demonstrative in this way, I think the blindness, like the blackness, will fall away in most people's minds as being a foundational factor in ability. I believe this is the best time in all of history for it. As for what the NFB could do for him. I think the same as it holds for any others of us. I don't think the NFB is only good for those needing "help" or is un-useful for those who already are personally generally successful. The NFB is much deeper and wider than that in my experience. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 20:14:19 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:14:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] To Beth: Accuracy on drug use and stuff for PAtterson In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0812190854q24f5bc6ah7a7e97c08538efc7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49592fa4.181e640a.42f8.ffff9879@mx.google.com> Dear Beth, It is my understanding that pretty much the day after he became Governor, Patterson held a press conference to beat the vetting to the punch and admitted to drug use and infidelity by both he and his wife in their marriage. Just FYI. So in this sense he showed that blind people are definitely human and capable of all normal things...smile. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:55 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SNL I agree with Hannah. That skit was just wrong, especially when Paterson says, "I'm a blind man who loves cocaine." Excuse me, but not all blind people are drug users. I'm not, thank God. And neither is Paterson, I think. Beth From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 20:14:19 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:14:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] To Arielle: on spoofing meaning equality and acceptance and the importance of things as compared to the whole BLindness movie... In-Reply-To: <494D31D5.40601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49592fae.181e640a.42f8.ffff98a1@mx.google.com> Dear Arielle, It escapes me how the oldest and most stereotypical and totally common portrayals of blindness as in the SNL skit played and pulled upon can now be viewed as an indication of a gesture of inclusion. This isn't teasing like everyone else at all in my mind. Also because someone sighted watches or takes in the stereotypes when they are in a "happy mood" has no less of a chance in internalizing it as fear and disgust than someone watching a tear jerker depiction or a repulsive of frightening depiction. Really, in my experience, in the end, whether it comes through laughter and as a joke or some other way the end result is the same, "thank god I am not blind" or "thank god my child is not blind" and some sense of inherent inferiority is placed on blindness and internalized or reinforced. I saw a Hallmark movie on their network last night. I had not expected it but one of the main characters was a blind child, perhaps about five or six. The portrayal of blindness was not horrible like in the Blindness movie, nor was it as a joke and she was not shown to be bumbling or completely unaware. However this very young child had a dog, and it wasn't even a totally "real" guide dog...no harness, but just a "good" super type dog. Whenever the child was alone she had the dog on leash. It was clear the child needed the dog to be a helper if no adult was right there. Otherwise if the child moved at all she was picked up and carried, yes carried, by an adult. She was cute as a button, bright and articulate. I don't recall any reference to Braille in the film. She runs her hand over a face of someone close who is leaving in one scene. The "mom" in the story spoke of some normal expectations minimally and the last scene in the movie was of her ice skating--albeit holding her grandfathers hand... Interestingly in one scene the mom says she adopted the girl as being given up and at nine months unwanted..."no one wants a blind baby I guess" was pretty close to the quote. This was not all bad, but it did little to give new or accurate ideas. I really think if you think that in the families and kids who watched this, they did not go away with some sense of mixed fear, inferiority, pity, or false inspiration about blindness you are naïve and mistaken. If things needed to be as blatant as the Blindness movie to harm us, we wouldn't be so harmed. Mr. Magoo was a common laugh when I was a kid, the same old lines and jokes...it had an impact and it did not help us. Indeed Arielle, for the greatest part throughout history, and even today, many are turned down for jobs or "helped" into dependency from "positive" not "negative" emotions. It has been said that our road to hell was paved with good intentions (for the most part)... and I think there is truth in that statement. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > I do think there is a fundamental difference between the SNL sketch > and the Blindness movie. In the Blindness movie, blindness is used as > a means of depicting "the end of the world" or "the collapse of > humanity". The intent of the film is to shock, frighten, and disgust > viewers and so whether or not viewers actually believe that the > depiction of the blind is realistic, they will tend to experience > negative emotions while watching the blind characters. The SNL sketch, > on the other hand, is designed to make people laugh. Not only is humor > at the expense of minorities commonly accepted in our culture, so > people probably won't interpret these portrayals as being realistic, > but also when people watch the sketch they are in a happy mood and so > won't associate blindness with fear and disgust. > > That said, I'm not thrilled about the way Gov. Paterson was portrayed > and I'm glad the NFB made a statement, but I don't think we should be > expending as much energy on this as we did with the Blindness film. I > also agree with the view that by using blindness as a characteristic > to spoof, we are being regarded as part of the mainstream. After all > many of us say we'd rather be teased like everyone else than treated > with extra kindness and compliments. Perhaps this is really a gesture > of inclusion. > > Arielle > From carrie.gilmer at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 20:41:01 2008 From: carrie.gilmer at gmail.com (Carrie Gilmer) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 14:41:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Belated Welcome to Marc In-Reply-To: <006001c96161$33d29310$020fa8c0@userf9b4fa60eb> Message-ID: <4959360a.261e640a.5e30.ffffc2d0@mx.google.com> Dear Marc, Your posts were also not showing for me and had Antonio not responded I would not have seen them. Anyway welcome and glad the conversation pulled you out from "lurking". I have known three Canadians, and liked them all...I "liked" you too right off, so I am at 100% with Canadians, smile. Welcome! I had to laugh because two paragraphs that I deleted as I thought it would be too much at the time you ended up writing nearly word for word-ha! Could this be why I liked you right off? Ha-LOL. I was glad you got some of the history out there. We have not left the dangers of "eugenics" forever behind us and indeed the very first to be murdered and the "practicing" of Nazi efficient mass killings were begun on children with mental and physical disabilities--including blind children. One of the arguments or rationales used to pacify society was a saving of money in difficult economics times-serious. Also it was in fact the United States of America who led the world in number of forced sterilizations on the disabled before Germany passed us up. Anyway I appreciated your joining in-and hope you do so regularly in the future. Best of wishes for you in gaining your Ph.d.! Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 4:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Marc, Although I would generally disagree with you about the direct effect of the Saturday Night Live skit on my life as a blind person, you have verry good points. First, the time and effort that went into writing the press release is right on. Many of us have spent much more time debating it that it took Chris Danielson to write and distribute it. Then there is the question that blind people can so definitively decide to get up in the morning and be successful, no matter the outside influences governing society, and life. If such a thing were true, then we could, based on often quoted unemployment rates among the blind, say that blind people are highly unmotivated, lazy, and disintrested in their own affairs. if this describes any of our readers, and I am sure it does, she or he should learn about the world, and the wonderful experiences to be had in it. To be sure, there are lazy, and disinterested blind people in our midst, but this is not the only factor in the 70 percent unemployment figures we so often cite. To be sure, employers have ideas about blind people. One employer recently hired someone else, even when it was clear the blind person performed better than the sighted in the job interview. Whether this was a lack of knowledge, or too much knowledge that current technologies were inaccessible to the blind candidate, the blind person lost out. That blind person was me, some time ago. The writing of a press release by the national office will spark discussion any time it is controvercial. National writes, leads, and speaks for the membership, and when some members have issue with it, they will have at it on our lists. The national office can't always speak for all members, of course, but it tries to capture the general feeling set fourth by resolutions, current thinking, or leadership actually leading. I wonder what our discussions would have been for the past few days if national were quietly ignoring this one. Sincerely, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Hello, I haven't posted on this list yet, but this thread is compelling enough to draw me out of lurker mode and into the conversation. By way of introduction, my name is Marc Workman, and I'll be starting a Ph.D in Philosophy at the University of Alberta in September. For you americans, that's in Canada where we spend all of our free time assuming that you know nothing about us and pretending that we don't care even though we desperately do. That little bit of self-depricating, but not very funny, poking fun at canadians was to show that I can take a joke, even if I can't make one. I find so much wrong with what you say Joe that this is likely to turn into an essay. I don't expect to change your mind (I saw the presidential election discussions, and I witnessed your impressive ability to deflect reasoned arguments without a second thought, and sometimes, it seemed, without a first as well). So this is really written for myself and whoever else is interested. First off, I always find it amusing when people assume that, once we reach adulthood, we are these completely free, autonomous, rational beings that independently choose whatever path we want. This assumption is usually made without the slightest awareness of how profoundly this conception of ourselves has been shaped by religious, economic, and political changes over the last 500 years. Not so long ago, the kind of person you describe who is capable of choosing his reality wasn't even conceivable. Now it's taken as a simple fact of nature, especially by americans and particularly a certain brand of conservative american (though many others as well of course), that we all freely and independently choose our reality. But I'll just leave that hopelessly internally contradictory position aside for now. Second, to the question: is it impossible for blind people to make something of themselves? The answer is obviously no. But it's the wrong question to ask. We should be working to make it so that blind people don't have to beat the odds, don't have to muster up anymore determination in order to succeed than do the sighted. The comment about the high level of determination required of blind people suggests that this is not currently the situation in which blind people find themselves, and for me, that cries out for rectification, but you imply that it is an acceptable state of affairs simply because it is always technically possible for blind people to succeed, provided of course that they muster up a high enough level of determination. Third, There seems to be some ignorance about the history of the blind. Blind people were, in fact, institutionalized in asylums, workshops, prisons, and privately in the home. Blind people were sterilized, in some cases voluntarily (whatever that means) and, in other cases, non-voluntarily. An of course there is the Holocaust where disabled people, including blind people, were actually killed. Suddenly, the apple and the orange don't seem so different, though I've never thought that apples and oranges were so difficult to compare; it would be much harder to compare apples with, say, submarines. Anyway, I view the history of the blind as adding up to more than mere discrimination borne of pity, but you may disagree. Fourth, I warned you it would be long, I don't recall ever hearing a blind person cluck like a chicken, unless he was trying to goad someone into a fight. And this is one of the problems with the SNL skit: it was so far from resembling anything close to an accurate depiction that it could only be funny to those who know almost nothing about blindness and hold very low expectations of the blind. I hardly think SNL was shedding light on the status quo. You can't tell me you think any blind person would actually wander back and forth in front of a camera like that. Nor do I think a blind person would show a graph upside down anymore that a sighted person; in fact, I suspect it would happen less because we know that when we make mistakes like that, it automatically gets assumed that it is a result of our blindness rather than, say, just being in a rush, whereas a sighted person can get away with making the same mistake and shrugging it off. The jokes the writers made were not based on observing blind people in any meaningful way. They simply imagined how hard it would be to be blind, recalled the bumbling blind man in past media portrayals, and came up with something pethetically unfunny. I grant, however, that 90% of SNL is crap, and so this was par for the course, but I genuinely believe these portrayals have a negative impact on me and the way I live my life. Exaggerating Sara Palin's mannerisms does little to perpetuate discrimination against any marginalized group. I don't think the same can be said of this particular skit, and this is why it is worse than just making fun of a politician. Finally, I don't understand why there is so much concern about writing press releases. It might make sense if there was a lot of time and effort going into this issue, but it's only a press release. It takes an hour to write and no time to send off to a set of media contacts. If the story gets picked up, then, who knows, you might end up actually educating someone or informing someone about the NFB. If the story doesn't get picked up, oh well, no real loss. I really find it odd that people would take more time condemning the writing of a press release than was actually spent writing it in the first place. Well, I'm sure I've alienated at least one of you, and probably more than that, so I'll sign off for now. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 12:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Yes, I suppose people with mental disabilities do in fact create their own version of reality according to their limited capacities. Yet, unless you are equating blindness to mental illness, I do not see how this extreme example fits into the context of my position or the discussion in general. People, blind and sighted, are born into a sphere of societal expectation. The sphere is made up of the family's ethnicity, religion, socioeconomic status, political affiliation, and in the specific case of blind people, the individual's disability. The individual could grow up choosing to follow his generation's traditional path in life, or they could grow up looking for the means to engineer their success in an area far removed from that which society may have projected. You either fail, or you succeed. There are only two choices in life, and the choice you make is the reality you choose to live in. Would you find it more acceptable if I used "environment" rather than "reality?" Breaking out of the trap of low expectations is not an easy task, but then, that was the point of my prior post. One need not work in rehab to understand that blind people have to muster up a high level of determination to make something of themselves. But is it impossible? Scores of people who built profitable careers long before the advent of technology and protective laws would probably respond with a resounding no. Your excursion into the comparisons between blindness and slavery are likewise beyond me. African-Americans, as you point out, were not allowed to become independent, productive or self-sufficient. Blind people may be discouraged from aiming for those three ambitions, but they have never been prohibited from trying. African-Americans were treated as commodities. They were treated like animals. Blind people may have faced their own set of discrimination, but the discrimination was born of pity, not from distaste, so please do not attempt to force a comparison between the apple and the orange. No, it would not be funny to mock the plight of African-American slaves. But making fun of a black person does not mean the joke is meant to recall memories of those terrible days where black people were treated like commodities. Minority jokes are more often based on culture. People know you do not invite a Hispanic to a birthday party unless you want their whole family to come along. Then again, you would not want to invite a Hispanic unless you plan on them not bringing a gift, and if you drive by the party and see more adults than children, it's probably a Hispanic hosting the party in the first place. As a Hispanic, am I offended by these funny jokes based on stereotypes? Not at all. The stereotypes are probably true, and even if they're generally not, we should remember that where there's smoke, there's fire. Enough people have engaged in a certain behavior to lend truth to the jokes minorities swap amongst each other. In other words, maybe there are enough blind people out there stumbling about, clucking like chickens and looking generally ridiculous that the general public has no choice but to lend comedy to the population's appearance. If you are a member of a targeted population in someone's punch line, it is your choice to surpass that stereotype, proving that the joke is just that, a joke. Yes, I know there are times when slavery is used to poke fun at black people, just as jokes are made of Hispanics' illegal immigration status. This is raw humor, but even raw humor is preferable to becoming depressed about a status that cannot be changed overnight. You may as well laugh as you go about the business of changing perceptions. Your generation may be appalled at the audacity of my generation's easy ability to be so politically incorrect, but our generation is a lot more diverse and accepting of this diversity. Humor, raw or otherwise, is one of the ways we get along, and I am glad blind people have their place in this sarcastic existence. If blind people do not want to be made fun of, maybe, just maybe, there should be less rocking, less eye poking, less groping, less refusal to learn Braille, less refusal to use a cane, less desire to talk about JAWS...I mean, these are fundamental matters that have nothing to do with career aspirations. We want to criticize SNL for shedding light on the status quo? One has to wonder if people are mad because SNL is right or because we have not yet done enough to fix the issue. I vote for a combination of both. Never mind the press releases that prolong what would have been easily forgotten had it been left alone. In the NFB there is an unfortunate perception that all blind people are tough, go getters, and with the right amount of training, the world is yours. I mean, you're preaching to the choir. The NFB is a small beacon of hope amid a much larger and growing population of blind people. In many ways the general public is no more mature than we were in high school. The ridiculousness of today will be forgotten in a few days, so in the meantime, rather than complain about all the terrible things being done to mislead the portrayal of blind people, let's use the strength of the largest blindness organization to do something about it. The world will not be brought to its knees with the official proclamation of a press release. Protests are as forgettable as the movie that necessitated them. Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:30 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Dear Joe, Reality is not what one creates for themselves-creating your own personal reality is one of the definitions of mental illness. I don't think that is exactly what you meant. For a blind person raised in dependency and low expectations, yes once they reach adulthood, life choices are theirs to make, however it is not anywhere as simple and cut and dry and you say in reality. Try working in Rehab for a few years. I observed that more often than not it was easier for a person who grew up with 20/20 who suddenly went blind to adjust than for someone who grew up blind and was enabled into dependency--who never was allowed to travel alone, or make their own decisions, or received enough Braille (or any) to become a good reader. Many of the stereotypes of black people have a basis in old reality. Black people were not allowed to learn to read and write. Black people often cut back on their work, slowed down, broke items, or faked illness in order to slow production...because if they produced at peak capacity then that was expected everyday--it was a form of resistance to slavery but whites came to say blacks were dumb, lazy, irresponsible... Is it funny to parody those behaviors that were a result of surviving temporarily such an evil and inhuman system of treatment of blacks? Is it funny to perpetuate the idea those behaviors are a true genetic basis in blacks? Blind people have been sent to the attic to live in secrecy, to asylums, to the sidelines, to the rocking chairs, to the sheltered workshops, and today when raised without skills often appear to exhibit the stereotypes due to blindness--that is the portrayal--the results of this treatment, but the reality is that eyesight has nothing to do with level of function or competence--it is training and experience and opportunity. Lives are devastated in reality. That is funny? As a society we choose what is funny overall and what is acceptable--granted some are always on the fringe, but they are a minority. The word f**k is just a word--where is freedom of speech--why do we regulate it, call it profane? We do place limits. For those blacks who call each other nigger, they do so out of a deep sense of inferiority and a warped attempt to reclaim calling themselves by a name they choose and is respectable. Most blacks do not call each other nigger. Blind people who put each other down by calling each other the names you say are reaching for respectability in the same most pathetic way. It can be funny when anyone trips or slips, sighted or blind. When the tripping is due to lack of attention. When the tripping is due to denial of opportunity and is always put out as the standard joke--well c'mon that joke is monotonous and likely a thousand years old. Can't they come up with something new, and is based in reality? The fact remains that such jokes are perceived by the public as stretching the truth and that the bumbling and fumbling are based on eyesight--when that is totally false. If you think the perpetuation of that joke does not perpetuate real discrimination I would say you are naïve at the least. And as for blind justice being a positive--wasn't the guy able to like see through walls practically? This is the other age old stereotype--if you are not bumbling fools then you are mystical and amazing...that one doesn't do justice either in my opinion. Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:31 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment Carrie, Reality is what a person creates for himself. Blind people who are told they could be doing more to reach their potential shun such encouragement, chalking it up to one more militaristic ploy of the NFB. A vast number of blind people may not have been exposed to adequate levels of socialization growing up, but eventually the blind person matures, recognizes the achievements of his sighted peers and then makes a choice as to whether or not they want to receive certain training in alternative techniques to behave like those peers. If the average blind person, or real blind person as you say, were trained in alternative techniques, the David Patersons of the world would be far and few between, and our work in the NFB would be more about socializing than it would be about advocating. I think people were offended by the segment because television mocked reality. We are too defensive to confess that the fumbling blind man is sadly the rule, not the exception. After all, would you not agree that the more difficult aspect of our work is working on blind people themselves? I don't know that SNL has made fun of Obama for being black. I'll bet South Park beats them to it, and yes, there may very well be an outrage. Yet other peoples' sensitivities should not be our ticket to moan every time the blind are the punch line to a joke. People of all shapes and colors have something to be made fun of, and there is no reason why we, in our attempt to be treated equally, should laugh at SNL's skit about Sarah Palin's inability to think or speak but cry fowl when the blind are shown to be less than perfect. Unfortunately there are hierarchies among the blind according to visual acuity. Either because this hierarchy exists, or because we are just human, we poke fun at each other for tripping over this or spilling that. Somehow I gather from this thread that it is okay for blind people to laugh at other blind people. Some blind people go around calling each other blindies, blindos, blinks and whatever other lables are out there, and yet somehow the sighted public is not qualified to join in the amusement? I just don't get it... Joe Orozco "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity."--James M. Barrie -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carrie Gilmer Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 5:14 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment I've been reading your posts with interest. I have not had time to look at the skit yet, or to think too deeply about it, but plan to over the next few days. The things I am considering are... It is a fairly known thing that Governor Patterson does not use a cane or a dog, yet he is well within the definition of blindness. To a sighted person he looks visibly blind--meaning you can tell his eyes don't work. It is my understanding he also never learned Braille. I have heard that this was in large part due to his family's feelings that he not be raised "looking blind" in order to give him the most opportunities. It seems a bit ironic that he now is portrayed "looking blind" in the most stereotypical way as he has risen to a point of political success that few ever attain. It also seems ironic that he has been observed as being a bit bumbling and stereotypical as he does not have good skills in non-visual techniques. So...the thing is if he looked like a real blind person skilled in non-visual techniques he would not be "bumbling" or needing to have everything read to him by readers... I also know that SNL has done no parody of Obama as a stereotypical black man. Might there be a skit in the works of a simple, watermelon eating scene from the oval office yet to come? Indeed I think not, and the public outcry would be deafening. A funny parody parodies something based in reality-- The reality of blind people is not that blindness means fumbling and bumbling--lack of proper training does. It is also harmful because of our minority status, it is just one more on the side of perpetuating the myths, lies and legends. Every portrayal means so much more to us, in hurtfulness or joy (in the case of a good portrayal) and in its impact in the public's mind--for good or for harm... Carrie Gilmer, President National Organization of Parents of Blind Children A Division of the National Federation of the Blind NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 Home Phone: 763-784-8590 carrie.gilmer at gmail.com www.nfb.org/nopbc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the BlindComments onSaturday Night Live Segment That's far from the truth. There's been several instances of blind characters on television portrayed in the way you're hoping for. Personally, I found the skit funny. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Jevnikar" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments onSaturday Night Live Segment >I agree with you Joe but at the same time this whole thing is hurtful too. > Why is it that every time a blind person is on TV they're acting >stupid or are incompetent. I'm glad they did this but did they have to >make it look like he was bumbling around, squinting, and in the way of >the camera for other skits? Surely they can poke fun at him without >all of that. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:36 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Wait, are we talking about the video clip or the press release? ... > Kidding, Santa will surely drop coal in my stocking for taking it > there, but it seems to me that just as the New York governor has a > certain amount of political capital, the NFB has an equal amount of > publicity quota. I have never known the organization to feel so > sensitive about every little thing that is thrown around about > blindness. We should not make official statements for comical > nonsense that will be forgotten in a few days and reserve those for > when statements are required to drive real impacts about real issues. > I, for one, found it gratifying that SNL informed millions of people > out there that a blind person is capable of becoming a governor. > As > for the humor, I found it gratifying that the producers thought blind > people important enough to be swept up in jokes just like any other > member of society. Next time I hope Dr. Maurer is invited on the > show. > > Best, > > Joe Orozco > > "Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for > humanity."--James M. > Barrie > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments > onSaturday Night Live Segment > > Well that was five minutes of my life I'll never get back. > > That was supposed to be funny? It was just stupid. > > Joseph > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 04:43:37PM -0500, pyyhkala at gmail.com wrote: >>Hi, >> >>Here are some more articles, and a link to the skit. I also have an >>article I liked on Facebook, see below. >> >>NY Times: >>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/15/nyregion/15skit.html?_r=1&ref=todays >>p aper (the article has more detail on the controversy) >> >>You can also watch the skit in question at this link: >>http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-gov-paterson >>/ >>881501/ >> >>You can read what the public is saying on Twitter at the link below >>that does a real time search: >>http://search.twitter.com/search?q=snl+blind >>If using Jaws on the above Twitter page, if you press the number 2 >>(for heading level 2) it will take you directly to the comments that >>people post. Twitter is a micro blogging service. >> >>Best, >>Mika >>Twitter Micro blog: >>http://twitter.com/pyyhkala >>Facebook: >>http://profile.to/mika >> >>On 12/15/08, Linda Stover wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Could someone provide more info or links to more info concerning >>> this particular situation? I think it would be extremely helpful to >>> understand if this is a spoof directed specifically at blindness, or >>> if the spoof is more directed to certain "blindisms" that the >>> governor frequently exhibits. I know that when I was watching >>> segments of this nature concerning the election on the show, certain >>> quirks/phrases/mannerisms were used to excess to perhaps heighten >>> humor/absurdity. Keeping this in mind, I'm wondering as I said what >>> exactly the comics were paridying. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 12/15/08, Beth wrote: >>>> Ijust watched CNN and they said something about this segment of SNL. >>>> I don't watch SLNL, but I support Paterson, and someday I want to >>>> be Governor, so there's no excuse for attacking Gov. Paerson for >>>> any reason. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> On 12/15/08, Freeh, Jessica wrote: >>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CONTACT: >>>>> >>>>> Chris Danielsen >>>>> >>>>> Public Relations Specialist >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> >>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 >>>>> >>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell) >>>>> >>>>> cdanielsen at nfb.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> National Federation of the Blind >>>>> Comments on Saturday Night Live Segment >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Largest Organization of the Blind Criticizes Attack on Blind >>>>> Americans >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (December 15, 2008): Chris Danielsen, >>>>> spokesman for the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The >>>>> biggest problem faced by blind people is not blindness itself, but >>>>> the stereotypes held by the general public about blindness and >>>>> blind people. The idea that blind people are incapable of the >>>>> simplest tasks and are perpetually disoriented and befuddled is >>>>> absolutely wrong. This misconception contributes to an >>>>> unemployment rate among blind people that stubbornly remains at 70 >>>>> percent. That is why the National Federation of the Blind is >>>>> disappointed that Saturday Night Live chose to portray Governor >>>>> Paterson in a comedy routine that focused almost exclusively on >>>>> his blindness. >>>>> Attacking the Governor because he is blind is an attack on all >>>>> blind Americans-blind children, blind adults, blind seniors, and >>>>> newly blinded veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. The >>>>> National Federation of the Blind urges the producers of Saturday >>>>> Night Live to consider the serious negative impact that >>>>> misinformation and stereotypes have on blind people before >>>>> continuing in this unfortunate vein of humor." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ### >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesis >>>>> l >>>>> oose%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten >>>> % >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pyyhkala%40g >>> m >>> ail.com >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph >>% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto > ronto.ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carrie.gilmer%40gmai l.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Mon Dec 29 21:24:23 2008 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:24:23 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Who's GOing To Washintton? Message-ID: <122920082124.22179.49594007000B7B60000056A32207300793010D0E9C0497030E@comcast.net> hello david, like i told you when i was with you in minnesota in january i might be going. i'm not making any promises. i need to workout with my state affiliate if i can get financial assistance and also a roommate for it. i might have one... so, i'm not making any promises due to financial issues but, like i have said to you many times i will see what i can do! thanks for posting this here and i will talk to you soon! hugs, from amy -------------- Original message -------------- From: "David Dunphy" > Just wanted to check in and see who might be going. There's a chance I'll > get to go with Blind Inc, and I plan to attend the student gathering there, > and am curious to see if anyone I know from here will be there. > >From David > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 21:42:21 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:42:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Who's GOing To Washintton? References: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com> <0FF0295D3834479DAB2FBAAF21D2B769@angelo> Message-ID: <008b01c969fe$551837f0$0301a8c0@Serene> Hey! I'm going. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dunphy" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:09 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Who's GOing To Washintton? > Just wanted to check in and see who might be going. There's a chance I'll > get to go with Blind Inc, and I plan to attend the student gathering > there, and am curious to see if anyone I know from here will be there. >>From David > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From golfereric at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 22:02:42 2008 From: golfereric at verizon.net (golfereric at verizon.net) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:02:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice Message-ID: <101176000.27455531230588162811.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Hello Everybody I was telling a sighted friend about the following situation and got a response that other professors might have a problem with it. The situation occured during the last full week of school. I was taking Introduction to Sociology and the professor decided to issue a take home final exam on Tuesday to be due on Friday. So he signed a document with approved accomodations and one of them was to receive all tests and exams in electronic format and when the professor issued the exam, the professor promised me that I would receive a copy of the exam the same day it was issued to everyone else in class. I waited all day and checked my student email constantly and there was no exam from the professor. So I sent a reminder email to the professor and got no response. The next day I checked my student email constantly and received no final exam. So on that day I sent an another reminder email to the professor. So I was scheduled to have a meeting with my Finite Math professor on Thursday of this week and my disability coordinator was at the meeting. It was to discuss what would work and what wouldn't work for my spring semester Finite Math class. After this meeting was over I mentioned to my disability coordinator about not receiving the final exam in electronic format from my Sociology professor. Between me and the disability coordinator we came up with an another email describing the ramficiations of ADA and for me to receive the final exam in electronic format. Neither the disability coordinator or I got a response. So my roommate was taking the same exact class and I scanned a copy of the exam questions. It was recoomended by my disability coordinator to write a letter to this professor after I received my final grade from the professor. My question to everybody is should I proceed with my case? If this information helps anybody I attend Southern New Hampshire University located in Manchester, New Hampshire Any thoughts and opinions are welcome Thanks, Eric Gaudes From hope.paulos at maine.edu Mon Dec 29 22:56:23 2008 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu ( Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:56:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice In-Reply-To: <101176000.27455531230588162811.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Message-ID: I still would proceed with the case. The professor signed an agreement that he would provide materials in electronic format. He did not comply with the agreement. Hope and guide dog, Beignet -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of golfereric at verizon.net Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 5:03 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice Hello Everybody I was telling a sighted friend about the following situation and got a response that other professors might have a problem with it. The situation occured during the last full week of school. I was taking Introduction to Sociology and the professor decided to issue a take home final exam on Tuesday to be due on Friday. So he signed a document with approved accomodations and one of them was to receive all tests and exams in electronic format and when the professor issued the exam, the professor promised me that I would receive a copy of the exam the same day it was issued to everyone else in class. I waited all day and checked my student email constantly and there was no exam from the professor. So I sent a reminder email to the professor and got no response. The next day I checked my student email constantly and received no final exam. So on that day I sent an another reminder email to the professor. So I was scheduled to have a meeting with my Finite Math professor on Thursday of this week and my disability coordinator was at the meeting. It was to discuss what would work and what wouldn't work for my spring semester Finite Math class. After this meeting was over I mentioned to my disability coordinator about not receiving the final exam in electronic format from my Sociology professor. Between me and the disability coordinator we came up with an another email describing the ramficiations of ADA and for me to receive the final exam in electronic format. Neither the disability coordinator or I got a response. So my roommate was taking the same exact class and I scanned a copy of the exam questions. It was recoomended by my disability coordinator to write a letter to this professor after I received my final grade from the professor. My question to everybody is should I proceed with my case? If this information helps anybody I attend Southern New Hampshire University located in Manchester, New Hampshire Any thoughts and opinions are welcome Thanks, Eric Gaudes _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine. edu From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 00:34:46 2008 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:34:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Who's GOing To Washintton? References: <4958243e.1d3e400a.79a0.61f3@mx.google.com><0FF0295D3834479DAB2FBAAF21D2B769@angelo> <008b01c969fe$551837f0$0301a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <3F3650E9165F42CDAC813421460FC013@angelo> Oh sweet! And we've been talking on here, so it'll be nice to finally meet you in person. From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 00:48:59 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:48:59 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] To Arielle: on spoofing meaning equality and acceptance and the importance of things as compared to the whole BLindness movie... In-Reply-To: <49592fae.181e640a.42f8.ffff98a1@mx.google.com> References: <494D31D5.40601@gmail.com> <49592fae.181e640a.42f8.ffff98a1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Carrie and all, The SNL sketch has certainly stirred a lot of healthy debate and soul-searching in the blind community and has caused us to grapple with some tough and important issues that don't have easy answers. A big part of the problem is that we can't directly measure how much a particular media portrayal affects or doesn't affect people's attitudes and behavior toward the blind, especially because there already is a lot of stereotyping and discrimination going on before the media portrayal occurs. In fact, skits like this one are based upon attitudes already held and so we can't necessarily determine whether the sketch directly created negative attitudes or discrimination toward the blind. I agree that in general the media does influence people especially if they don't have any other knowledge of blindness. My only argument is that in some cases where the portrayal is obviously exaggerated and satirical, people are less likely to interpret the portrayal as a true depiction of the people in question. Certain kinds of entertainment are designed to suspend people's ordinary perceptions of reality which is why things that are generally considered socially unacceptable are deemed acceptable for comedy. One of my favorite TV shows is South Park where members of virtually every religious, racial and cultural group are routinely made fun of including Jews. I am Jewish and would normally be outraged by any blatant labeling of Jews as greedy or obnoxious. Yet the Jewish characters on South Park constantly act this way and I think it is funny. I feel confident that the people who watch South Park would find the portrayal ridiculous and would never actually base their opinions of Jews on this show's characters. In fact, the very appeal of shows such as South Park is how exaggerated and unrealistic the portrayals actually are. On SNL depictions of political figures often start with a grain of truth and then wildly exaggerate it. Unfortunately there is a grain of truth in the bumbling portrayal of Patterson--not of blind people in general, but of Patterson in particular. I don't think that viewers of SNL would actually extend the portrayal so far as to apply to all blind people, or even that they would treat it as a realistic portrayal of Patterson himself. I also feel, and I am confident that I am not the only Federationist to feel, that part of true normality and acceptance is openness to being mocked and made fun of just as the general population is in today's entertainment culture. We as blind people are a cross-section of society. As such, we cannot expect to only be portrayed in a positive light all the time. I would argue that being treated with false kindness is just as bad as being treated with undeserved hostility. Just as we all hate being told we're amazing or inspirational all the time, so too we wouldn't want to be portrayed in the media as flawless saints--or not portrayed at all. A media portrayal that shows us as normal people--even those of us who use drugs, engage in infidelity or don't have the greatest skills--is what I referred to as a gesture of inclusion. I will close by saying I'm not thrilled by the sketch, and I personally wish they had focused on Patterson's other weaknesses besides his blindness. But it's done, and I think if we demand to be portrayed a certain way by the media, people may see us as sensitive individuals--not capable of taking a joke and perhaps not capable of doing the "heavy lifting" in our society either. It'd be a better tactic for us to quietly let people forget about SNL and counterattack by doing the best we can to be as skilled, confident and integrated as we can. As someone pointed out on another list, we can make a far stronger impression by getting ourselves out into the working world and into our universities than we will in our portrayal on a five-minute TV sketch. Arielle On 12/30/08, Carrie Gilmer wrote: > Dear Arielle, > It escapes me how the oldest and most stereotypical and totally common > portrayals of blindness as in the SNL skit played and pulled upon can now be > viewed as an indication of a gesture of inclusion. This isn't teasing like > everyone else at all in my mind. Also because someone sighted watches or > takes in the stereotypes when they are in a "happy mood" has no less of a > chance in internalizing it as fear and disgust than someone watching a tear > jerker depiction or a repulsive of frightening depiction. Really, in my > experience, in the end, whether it comes through laughter and as a joke or > some other way the end result is the same, "thank god I am not blind" or > "thank god my child is not blind" and some sense of inherent inferiority is > placed on blindness and internalized or reinforced. > > I saw a Hallmark movie on their network last night. I had not expected it > but one of the main characters was a blind child, perhaps about five or six. > The portrayal of blindness was not horrible like in the Blindness movie, nor > was it as a joke and she was not shown to be bumbling or completely unaware. > However this very young child had a dog, and it wasn't even a totally "real" > guide dog...no harness, but just a "good" super type dog. Whenever the child > was alone she had the dog on leash. It was clear the child needed the dog to > be a helper if no adult was right there. Otherwise if the child moved at all > she was picked up and carried, yes carried, by an adult. She was cute as a > button, bright and articulate. I don't recall any reference to Braille in > the film. She runs her hand over a face of someone close who is leaving in > one scene. The "mom" in the story spoke of some normal expectations > minimally and the last scene in the movie was of her ice skating--albeit > holding her grandfathers hand... Interestingly in one scene the mom says she > adopted the girl as being given up and at nine months unwanted..."no one > wants a blind baby I guess" was pretty close to the quote. This was not all > bad, but it did little to give new or accurate ideas. I really think if you > think that in the families and kids who watched this, they did not go away > with some sense of mixed fear, inferiority, pity, or false inspiration about > blindness you are naïve and mistaken. If things needed to be as blatant as > the Blindness movie to harm us, we wouldn't be so harmed. Mr. Magoo was a > common laugh when I was a kid, the same old lines and jokes...it had an > impact and it did not help us. > > Indeed Arielle, for the greatest part throughout history, and even today, > many are turned down for jobs or "helped" into dependency from "positive" > not "negative" emotions. It has been said that our road to hell was paved > with good intentions (for the most part)... and I think there is truth in > that statement. > > > > Carrie Gilmer, President > National Organization of Parents of Blind Children > A Division of the National Federation of the Blind > NFB National Center: 410-659-9314 > Home Phone: 763-784-8590 > carrie.gilmer at gmail.com > www.nfb.org/nopbc > > > Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I do think there is a fundamental difference between the SNL sketch >> and the Blindness movie. In the Blindness movie, blindness is used as >> a means of depicting "the end of the world" or "the collapse of >> humanity". The intent of the film is to shock, frighten, and disgust >> viewers and so whether or not viewers actually believe that the >> depiction of the blind is realistic, they will tend to experience >> negative emotions while watching the blind characters. The SNL sketch, >> on the other hand, is designed to make people laugh. Not only is humor >> at the expense of minorities commonly accepted in our culture, so >> people probably won't interpret these portrayals as being realistic, >> but also when people watch the sketch they are in a happy mood and so >> won't associate blindness with fear and disgust. >> >> That said, I'm not thrilled about the way Gov. Paterson was portrayed >> and I'm glad the NFB made a statement, but I don't think we should be >> expending as much energy on this as we did with the Blindness film. I >> also agree with the view that by using blindness as a characteristic >> to spoof, we are being regarded as part of the mainstream. After all >> many of us say we'd rather be teased like everyone else than treated >> with extra kindness and compliments. Perhaps this is really a gesture >> of inclusion. >> >> Arielle >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From serenacucco at verizon.net Tue Dec 30 00:57:53 2008 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:57:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice References: <101176000.27455531230588162811.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Message-ID: <00a001c96a19$a563d640$0301a8c0@Serene> Hi Eric The professor is clearly not complying with the agreement he signed! I don't understand what other professors would have a problem with and why that would affect your pursuing your case. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice > Hello Everybody > > > I was telling a sighted friend about the following situation and got a > response that other professors might have a problem with it. The situation > occured during the last full week of school. I was taking Introduction to > Sociology and the professor decided to issue a take home final exam on > Tuesday to be due on Friday. So he signed a document with approved > accomodations and one of them was to receive all tests and exams in > electronic format and when the professor issued the exam, the professor > promised me that I would receive a copy of the exam the same day it was > issued to everyone else in class. I waited all day and checked my student > email constantly and there was no exam from the professor. So I sent a > reminder email to the professor and got no response. The next day I > checked my student email constantly and received no final exam. So on that > day I sent an another reminder email to the professor. So I was scheduled > to have a meeting with my Finite Math professor on Thursday of this week > and my disability coordinator was at the meeting. It was to discuss what > would work and what wouldn't work for my spring semester Finite Math > class. After this meeting was over I mentioned to my disability > coordinator about not receiving the final exam in electronic format from > my Sociology professor. Between me and the disability coordinator we came > up with an another email describing the ramficiations of ADA and for me to > receive the final exam in electronic format. Neither the disability > coordinator or I got a response. So my roommate was taking the same exact > class and I scanned a copy of the exam questions. > > It was recoomended by my disability coordinator to write a letter to this > professor after I received my final grade from the professor. My question > to everybody is should I proceed with my case? > > If this information helps anybody I attend Southern New Hampshire > University located in Manchester, New Hampshire > Any thoughts and opinions are welcome > > Thanks, > Eric Gaudes > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From sarah at growingstrong.org Tue Dec 30 01:45:51 2008 From: sarah at growingstrong.org (Sarah J. Blake) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:45:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] French and German resources Message-ID: <030801c96a20$59be20e0$6501a8c0@SBLAPTOP> Does anyone have any college-level French and/or German resources, either scanned or in braille, that you'd like to share or offload? Sarah J. Blake http://www.growingstrong.org sjblake at growingstrong.org I'm protected by SpamBrave http://www.spambrave.com/ From hope.paulos at maine.edu Tue Dec 30 02:31:38 2008 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:31:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] French and German resources Message-ID: <20081230022543.GTAJ2065.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@BrailleNote> Hi there. I have cd's of german speech (beginning German) that I could create files of but nothing in Braille. Unfortunately, I deleted all of my braille stuff. Es tut mir leid- I'm sorry. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Sarah J. Blake" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:45:51 -0500 >Subject: [nabs-l] French and German resources >Does anyone have any college-level French and/or German resources, either scanned or in braille, that you'd like to share or offload? >Sarah J. Blake >http://www.growingstrong.org >sjblake at growingstrong.org >I'm protected by SpamBrave >http://www.spambrave.com/ >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine.edu From cdanielsen8 at aol.com Tue Dec 30 03:01:19 2008 From: cdanielsen8 at aol.com (Chris Danielsen) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:01:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Celebrates the 200th Anniversary of the Birth of Louis Braille Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Public Relations Specialist National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, ext. 2330 (410) 262-1281 (cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Celebrates the 200th Anniversary of the Birth of Louis Braille Events to be Held Nationwide in Over One Hundred Locations Baltimore, Maryland (December 29, 2008): The National Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nation’s largest and oldest organization of blind people, will hold events nationwide on Sunday, January 4, 2009, to promote Braille literacy and help celebrate the two-hundredth anniversary of the birth of Louis Braille (1809–1852), the inventor of the reading and writing code for the blind that bears his name. In over one hundred bookstores, libraries, and other venues all across the nation, National Federation of the Blind representatives will demonstrate Braille and the power of Braille literacy. “There can be no doubt that the ability to read and write Braille competently and efficiently is the key to education, employment, and success for the blind. Despite the undisputed value of Braille, only about 10 percent of blind children in the United States are currently learning it. These events will help raise awareness of the importance of Braille literacy and are an integral part of our nationwide campaign to reverse the downward trend in Braille literacy and to ensure that equal opportunities in education and employment are available to all of the nation’s blind,” said Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind. The events are being held nationwide as part of the National Federation of the Blind’s Braille Readers are Leaders campaign, a national initiative to promote the importance of reading and writing Braille for blind children and adults. The Braille Readers are Leaders campaign kicked off in July of 2008 with the unveiling of the design of a commemorative coin to be minted in 2009 in recognition of the two-hundredth anniversary of the birth of Louis Braille. The commemorative coin design will also be previewed at the events. For more information about the Braille Readers are Leaders campaign, please visit www.braille.org. To find out about events in your area, please contact Fredric Schroeder at fschroeder at nfb.org. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. Please visit our Web site: www.nfb.org. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Jan 4 National Braille literacy events release2.doc Type: application/msword Size: 92160 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 09:56:12 2008 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 04:56:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice In-Reply-To: <101176000.27455531230588162811.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> References: <101176000.27455531230588162811.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Message-ID: <63af025c0812300156w7b3cd75bh198b57f1c94d5396@mail.gmail.com> I would definitely go ahead and send that letter. You may have finished the class just fine, but you should not have had to do it in the way you did. If not for your own benefit, proceed for the benefit of future blind students in that class. On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:02 PM, wrote: > Hello Everybody > > > I was telling a sighted friend about the following situation and got a > response that other professors might have a problem with it. The situation > occured during the last full week of school. I was taking Introduction to > Sociology and the professor decided to issue a take home final exam on > Tuesday to be due on Friday. So he signed a document with approved > accomodations and one of them was to receive all tests and exams in > electronic format and when the professor issued the exam, the professor > promised me that I would receive a copy of the exam the same day it was > issued to everyone else in class. I waited all day and checked my student > email constantly and there was no exam from the professor. So I sent a > reminder email to the professor and got no response. The next day I checked > my student email constantly and received no final exam. So on that day I > sent an another reminder email to the professor. So I was scheduled to have > a meeting with my Finite Math professor on Thursday of this week and my > disability coordinator was at the meeting. It was to discuss what would work > and what wouldn't work for my spring semester Finite Math class. After this > meeting was over I mentioned to my disability coordinator about not > receiving the final exam in electronic format from my Sociology professor. > Between me and the disability coordinator we came up with an another email > describing the ramficiations of ADA and for me to receive the final exam in > electronic format. Neither the disability coordinator or I got a response. > So my roommate was taking the same exact class and I scanned a copy of the > exam questions. > > It was recoomended by my disability coordinator to write a letter to this > professor after I received my final grade from the professor. My question to > everybody is should I proceed with my case? > > If this information helps anybody I attend Southern New Hampshire > University located in Manchester, New Hampshire > Any thoughts and opinions are welcome > > Thanks, > Eric Gaudes > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From SWhite at nfb.org Tue Dec 30 19:53:40 2008 From: SWhite at nfb.org (White, Scott) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:53:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Job Opening on the NFB-Newsline Team Message-ID: Subject: Job opening on the NFB-NEWSLINE team 12/30/08 Good Day, I am writing to inform you that we have an opening at the National Center for the Blind in Baltimore, Maryland for a Manager of Content for Sponsored Technology. Please see below or visit the below web site for a job description and instructions on how to apply. http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Malcontents.asp?SnID=642008648 Thank you. Scott A. White Director of Sponsored Technology Programs NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2231 Cell: 410-300-8283 Fax: (410) 685-5653 Email: swhite at nfb.org Manager of Content for Sponsored Technology Description: Under the supervision of the Director of Sponsored Technology Programs, the Manager of Content for Sponsored Technology has primary responsibility for maintaining quality control of the information presented on NFB-NEWSLINE® as well as the addition of new content on the service. The manager acts as the point of contact between content providers and NFB-NEWSLINE®. Additionally the manager assists the Director of Sponsored Technology with other sponsored technology activities as needed. Responsibilities: * Monitors the NFB-NEWSLINE® system for stability, identifies problem issues and takes appropriate corrective measures. * Investigates and responds to system trouble reports from subscribers and state sponsors' management. * Communicates with stakeholders on the status of any repairs and projected timelines. * Performs periodic system and content checks to verify that the service is performing properly and resolves any issues discovered. * Routinely throughout the day monitors the updating of NFB-NEWSLINE® content to discover any discrepancies. * Identifies the reason for any discrepancies found and communicates with the content provider or staff members to facilitate resolution of the issue, continuing to track the content problem until it is fully resolved. * In conjunction with the Director, provides the technical staff with direction on the priority level of content fixes and additions. * Designs, implements, and manages a newspaper content escalation process for reporting and resolving newspaper content problems and issues. * Provides management with weekly and biweekly reports on the status of outstanding content issues and additions. * Participates in an on-call rotation with other team members for evening and weekend resolution of system issues. * Handles all aspects of acquiring content for the NFB-NEWSLINE® service, including initial contact and negotiation of contract with content providers, communicating technical requirements to the IT staff of the content provider, and ensuring quality control of the newly acquired content prior to its public release. * Monitors all newspaper contracts, identifies out-of-date contracts and brings these contracts up to our current standards. * Provides Level 1 general support to users regarding registration for service, changes in contact information, and general questions. * Provides Level 2 support and troubleshooting of technical issues reported by stakeholders and either resolves the issue or communicates it to appropriate personnel for resolution. * Provides support and training to state sponsors and coordinators on the use of the administration Web site. * Makes updates and additions to the NFB-NEWSLINE® Web site using a content management system when required. * Processes online forms from the Web site such as the application for service and e-mail delivery. * Recommends NFB-NEWSLINE® feature enhancements and initiatives to the Director of Sponsored Technology based on sponsor and subscriber feedback. Skills Required: * Ability to execute multiple tasks efficiently and effectively; * Ability to self-manage multiple projects simultaneously and meet deadlines; * A basic understanding of XML, HTML and FTP as an essential qualification; * The ability to set priorities and establish work routines independently; * Excellent oral and written communication skills; * Ability to learn new skills quickly; * Ability to deliver oral presentations to small and large groups; * Ability to communicate well with a wide variety of people and to troubleshoot problems; * Excellent follow-up skills; * Demonstrated skill in use of Microsoft Office Suite, including Word, Excel, Access, Power Point, and Outlook; * Ability to perform basic computer tasks required for the efficient operation of a business office. Education: A High School diploma is required. Other combinations of education and experience demonstrating qualifications to perform the work will be considered. Comments: Some out-of-state overnight travel is required. Requires an individual with above-average commitment to making a difference for a significant group of human beings frequently denied full opportunity in society. There are no “positions” in the traditional sense at the National Center for the Blind for many of our jobs. Candidates are hired on the basis of their education and experience ratings and performance in multiple interviews and then assigned where needed. We seek individuals who long to identify with a cause and to assist in advocacy for a group long denied equal opportunity to succeed or fail on the basis of ability, not be denied opportunity on the basis of society’s stereotypes. Applicants should send, preferably via e-mail, a résumé and cover letter indicating salary requirements to: Anthony Cobb, Director of Human Resources, National Federation of the Blind, 1800 Johnson Street, Baltimore, MD 21230; telephone 410-659-9314, ext. 2281; fax 410-685-5653; e-mail Acobb at nfb.org. The National Federation of the Blind is an equal opportunity employer. Accordingly all terms and conditions of employment will be carried out without regard to race, creed, color, religion, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, marital status, age, or disability. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Job opening on the NFB-NEWSLINE team 2008-12-30.rtf Type: application/rtf Size: 1235 bytes Desc: not available URL: From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 00:00:35 2008 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:00:35 +1100 Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice In-Reply-To: <63af025c0812300156w7b3cd75bh198b57f1c94d5396@mail.gmail.com> References: <101176000.27455531230588162811.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> <63af025c0812300156w7b3cd75bh198b57f1c94d5396@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Eric, You certainly can send your prof a letter informing him that his failure to give you the exam materials in a timely manner are a legal problem, for his own education and hopefully improved treatment of future blind students he may have. Whether you want to go further by taking legal action or seeking some kind of compensation is a complex decision. Legal action or lower forms of advocacy (such as complaining to a dean or department head) can be more powerful than just talking to the individual professor about your concerns. However, advocacy and especially legal battles can require a great deal of time, effort, and money, and may or may not be effective. It's key to decide whether the gain is worth the cost especially if you will probably never interact with this prof again or suffer further consequences of his delinquency. In general, when deciding which advocacy battles to fight there are a couple of factors to consider. First, is this a repeat offense or a one-time breach of the agreement? Repeated forgetfulness or failure to accommodate is in my mind a more stubborn problem than one slip. Not that this makes his behavior OK, but some professors are simply too lax about keeping up with their email--and are not intentionally slighting their blind students. Another factor to consider is whether the delay in receiving materials impacted your grade on the exam or in the course. Of course we want all our professors to comply with the ADA all the time, regardless of whether or not their noncompliance hurts us permanently, but some breaches are more serious and deserving of remedy than others. In any case I commend you for doing the most important thing of all and that is using a backup method to get your assignment done. Blind students sometimes get in the habit of relying on just one method for access and then let their grades slip when the method fails, blaming the failure on their poor performance or doing things like dropping courses instead of trying to find an alternative solution. No method is perfect and an important skill for blind students to have is the willingness to use more than one technique to get their assignments read and completed. Using a scanner is a good example of a secondary method to use when electronic materials aren't available. Another technique that's often neglected is the use of human readers. Readers have their disadvantages and aren't always ideal as a primary method for accessing material, but if your technology breaks down or professors or DSS fail to provide access in a timely manner, finding a reader is always an option, and a better one than dropping classes or not doing the work. Arielle On 12/30/08, Jamie Principato wrote: > I would definitely go ahead and send that letter. You may have finished the > class just fine, but you should not have had to do it in the way you did. If > not for your own benefit, proceed for the benefit of future blind students > in that class. > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 5:02 PM, wrote: > >> Hello Everybody >> >> >> I was telling a sighted friend about the following situation and got a >> response that other professors might have a problem with it. The situation >> occured during the last full week of school. I was taking Introduction to >> Sociology and the professor decided to issue a take home final exam on >> Tuesday to be due on Friday. So he signed a document with approved >> accomodations and one of them was to receive all tests and exams in >> electronic format and when the professor issued the exam, the professor >> promised me that I would receive a copy of the exam the same day it was >> issued to everyone else in class. I waited all day and checked my student >> email constantly and there was no exam from the professor. So I sent a >> reminder email to the professor and got no response. The next day I >> checked >> my student email constantly and received no final exam. So on that day I >> sent an another reminder email to the professor. So I was scheduled to >> have >> a meeting with my Finite Math professor on Thursday of this week and my >> disability coordinator was at the meeting. It was to discuss what would >> work >> and what wouldn't work for my spring semester Finite Math class. After >> this >> meeting was over I mentioned to my disability coordinator about not >> receiving the final exam in electronic format from my Sociology professor. >> Between me and the disability coordinator we came up with an another email >> describing the ramficiations of ADA and for me to receive the final exam >> in >> electronic format. Neither the disability coordinator or I got a response. >> So my roommate was taking the same exact class and I scanned a copy of the >> exam questions. >> >> It was recoomended by my disability coordinator to write a letter to this >> professor after I received my final grade from the professor. My question >> to >> everybody is should I proceed with my case? >> >> If this information helps anybody I attend Southern New Hampshire >> University located in Manchester, New Hampshire >> Any thoughts and opinions are welcome >> >> Thanks, >> Eric Gaudes >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From LoriStay at aol.com Wed Dec 31 03:31:46 2008 From: LoriStay at aol.com (by way of David Andrews ) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 21:31:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Writing Contest Message-ID: Do you know a budding writer? Pass this along! Lori Stayer Youth Writing Contest! The NFB Writers' Division is hosting a Youth Writing Contest to promote Braille literacy and excellence in creative writing. Entries will be judged on creativity and quality of Braille. We are looking for creative writing, in the form of fiction and poetry. There is no charge for entering. This is a contest for students who use Braille. Entries must Be submitted in hand embossed Braille, either on a slate and stylus or on a Braille writer. No computer Braille entries will be considered. Submissions must be Brailled by the entrant. Elementary students (K-5) may submit contracted Braille, uncontracted Braille, or an acceptable combination of the two. Students in higher grades will be expected to submit stories or poetry in contracted Braille. There are six categories, as follows: Elementary Fiction; Elementary Poetry; Middle School Fiction; Middle School Poetry; High School Fiction; High School Poetry. Elementary is K-5. Middle School is 6-8. High School is 9-12. The contest begins January first, and ends, postmarked date April first. There will be three cash prizes for each of the six categories. First prize per contest is $25. Second prize is $15 and third prize is $5. Submissions for fiction may not exceed one thousand words. Poetry may not exceed twenty lines. Authors may submit multiple entries and all work must be original and unpublished. Each entrant must provide an identical print copy for possible publication. Entries must be accompanied by a cover sheet containing entrant's information: Name, address, phone, email, title of the entry, school and grade of entrant. Winners will be announced at our division meeting during the July 2009 NFB National convention held in Detroit, Michigan. Send to Fred Wurtzel, 1212 N Foster, Lansing Michigan, 48912. Questions? contact Fred Wurtzel at f.wurtzel at comcast.net or 517-485-0326 From KZakhnini at nfb.org Wed Dec 31 18:10:53 2008 From: KZakhnini at nfb.org (Zakhnini, Karen) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:10:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Second NFB Youth Slam Message-ID: In the summer of 2009 we will have our second National Federation of the Blind Youth Slam for blind high school students. The program will be held at the University of Maryland, College Park. We still need plenty of mentors and students to apply, so please help us get the word out. If you need more information about the program or are interested in being a student or mentor participant, please visit http://www.blindscience.org/ncbys/Youth_Slam.asp and fill out the appropriate application. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Thank you! Sincerely, Karen C. Zakhnini Education Project Manager Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND Phone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2293 Fax: (410) 659-5129 Support Braille literacy and empowering programs by sponsoring me in the Motor City March for Independence! Visit http://www.marchforindependence.org/site/TR/walk/General?px=1003222&pg=personal&fr_id=1050 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Dec 31 21:25:48 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:25:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! References: <236413.26329.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6C2C995F56AA4C6393197980B8E02B87@D1GMNL91> Harry, Congradulations on graduating. Will you go bo Blind Inc next or what are your plans? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:27 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Successfully Graduated! Hello everyone, I am pleased to tell you all that I graduated this Saturday with a Bachelor's of Arts degree in Spanish. And yes, I walked across the stage and received my diploma with only verbal cues. Take care, and stay warm-it's cold out side! Harry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Dec 31 21:38:07 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:38:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals References: Message-ID: <2E672530E194430C885911DF68771A5A@D1GMNL91> This was a good poem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Twas the Night Before Finals > Here's a classic one to get those of you still in school through the > nightmare... > > > >>Twas the night before finals, >>And all through the college, >>The students were praying >>For last minute knowledge. >> >>Most were quite sleepy, >>But none touched their beds, >>While visions of essays >>danced in their heads. >> >>Out in the taverns, >>A few were still drinking, >>And hoping that liquor >>would loosen up their thinking. >> >>In my own apartment >>I had been pacing, >>And dreading exams >>I soon would be facing. >> >>My roommate was speechless, >>His nose in his books, >>And my comments to him >>Drew unfriendly looks. >> >>I drained all the coffee, >>And brewed a new pot, >>No longer caring >>That my nerves were shot. >> >>I stared at my notes, >>But my thoughts were muddy, >>My eyes went ablur, >>I just couldn't study. >> >>"Some pizza might help," >>I said with a shiver, >>But each place I called >>Refused to deliver. >> >>I'd nearly concluded >>That life was too cruel, >>With futures depending >>On grades had in school. >> >>When all of a sudden, >>Our door opened wide, >>And Patron Saint Put It Off >>Ambled inside. >> >>Her spirit was careless, >>Her manner was mellow, >>She started to bellow: >> >>"What kind of student >>Would make such a fuss, >>To toss back at teachers >>What they tossed at us?" >> >>"On Cliff Notes! On Crib Notes! >>On Last Year's Exams! >>On Wingit and Slingit, >>And Last Minute Crams!" >> >>Her message delivered, >>She vanished from sight, >>But we heard her laughing >>Outside in the night. >> >>"Your teachers have pegged you, >>So just do your best. >>Happy Finals to All, >>And to All, a good test." > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Dec 31 21:42:05 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:42:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection References: Message-ID: Good question. I live in VA; it gets below freezing sometimes but its not like the northern states. On the other hand its not as warm as Florida in winter. So far when I need to cover my ears for warmth, I do so with a hat covering my ears partly. A hat is thin so i can still hear pretty well. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:34 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Winter Ear Protection > Hello all, > > This year I moved to Boulder, CO, after spending my entire life living > in Phoenix, Arizona where the coldest winter days get down to 40 > degrees. I've been learning a lot over the past few weeks about > traveling in the cold and snow and have actually found it to be a lot > less daunting than I expected! The only thing I haven't quite figured > out yet is how to keep my ears warm without losing too much > environmental sound. When traffic sounds are already muffled by snow I > want to be able to hear as much of what remains as I can for good > orientation, but I also don't want to freeze my ears off! > > Suggestions? > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Dec 31 21:51:41 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:51:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard References: Message-ID: <4381467B438F4BFD982F40F28C263A1A@D1GMNL91> Rachel, I was not able to turn in assignments on blackboard either; jaws did not recognize some of the buttons. Also the discussion board was a problem. Many things i could access like all the documents. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Becker" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard >I have not been able to turn in assignments on blackboard and I am also >using JAWS 9. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Cindy Bennett > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard > > > I use jaws version 9, and as far as i can tell, blackboard is accessible. > Granted, i only use it for a couple of classes, i have been able to read > and turn in assignments, and i can fill out the online quizzes just fine. > I haven't used any commands that are unusual, but again, i haven't really > researched it since i only have to use it for a couple of classes. I have > heard that some people have trouble with discussion boards and live online > discussions, but i am not familiar with those. > Cindy > > > --- On Mon, 12/8/08, Robert Miller wrote: > >> From: Robert Miller >> Subject: [nabs-l] Jaws and Blackboard >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Date: Monday, December 8, 2008, 4:58 PM >> Hi everyone, I’m a teacher at the Oklahoma School for the >> Blind, and I teach assistive technology devices to students. >> I teach students from 2nd to 12th grade and I need your >> help regarding my high school seniors. More and more >> college students are being required to access blackboard >> from the college teachers. I’m told that blackboard >> isn’t very Jaws friendly. I wanted to get your opinion on >> blackboard’s accessibility. Is it accessible? If so, what >> is the best method of accessing it? Is there a set of >> keyboard commands that I can download to teach my students? >> Any help on accessing blackboard would be greatly >> appreciated. >> >> Thank you! >> Waiting for your help! >> Robert. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/passionflower505%40yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rachel%40beckerconsultants.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > From corbbo at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 22:16:46 2008 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:16:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Virginia Association of Blind Students References: <3DB02E1D-D55D-448E-AE62-D7F4ED7C2235@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0720F49A-B6F1-4853-9945-085C8FFAC34C@gmail.com> Hello students! I am posting this message on the National list as well, for I'm not sure how many students are on the Virginia list. I'm looking to get the Virginia division rolling again, and would love your help. If you attend school in Virginia or the metro-DC area, I'm happy to have you! Please see below for the message I sent the VABS list, and if you're interested, please join that list at www.nfbnet.org Many thanks and Happy New Year. Corbb ----- Corbb O'Connor The George Washington University '10 B.A. Political Communication & Economics Begin forwarded message: From: Corbb O'Connor Date: December 31, 2008 5:14:29 PM EST To: vabs at nfbnet.org Subject: From your President. Happy New Year Virginians! Corbb O'Connor here, President of the Virginia Association of Blind Students. For those who weren't aware, I spent this past semester abroad at the National University of Ireland, Galway, as was therefore unable to make it to our state convention. (You see, I told Dr. Schroeder that I would happily return if he paid my airfare -- I was told that was not in the budget!) I left you, though, in the very capable hands of Jessica Kostiw, and I'm glad to hear that she does not disappoint! It's time for us to start moving again as a division. I have had a great difficulty in reaching our current VABS Board this past year, so I am hoping that you can all help me. I would love to hear your ideas of what we can do this year. But more importantly, I want your help making those ideas a reality. One of the first things that I want to focus on is crafting a constitution for our division. This will involve a lot of discussion, some writing, and thinking about our division's future. To facilitate this, I propose that we hold a conference call either next Sunday, Jan. 4 or Monday, Jan. 5 at 10pm ET. I have used a service before at Freeconference.com where you will need to dial a phone number, enter an access code, and join the conversation. That phone number is a long-distance number, but my hope is that by holding this meeting in the evening, we can exploit free long distance minutes on cell phones! In order to give an accurate count of the participants to the teleconference company, please reply to me with your availability (either Sunday or Monday) and your e-mail address. Best wishes for 2009, and I look forward to working together. Corbb O'Connor ----- Corbb O'Connor The George Washington University '10 B.A. Political Communication & Economics From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Dec 31 22:52:07 2008 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:52:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice References: <101176000.27455531230588162811.JavaMail.javamailuser@localhost> Message-ID: <383707E9360A4328BC8D01889693302A@D1GMNL91> I think you should send the letter to the professor. He did not comply with the written agreement. Whether to go further depends on other factors. Was the professor a problem all along or just for the test? Did he repeatedly fail to be accomodating? I don't think your action will affect your interaction with future instructors. Good luck. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 5:02 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Legal Advice > Hello Everybody > > > I was telling a sighted friend about the following situation and got a > response that other professors might have a problem with it. The situation > occured during the last full week of school. I was taking Introduction to > Sociology and the professor decided to issue a take home final exam on > Tuesday to be due on Friday. So he signed a document with approved > accomodations and one of them was to receive all tests and exams in > electronic format and when the professor issued the exam, the professor > promised me that I would receive a copy of the exam the same day it was > issued to everyone else in class. I waited all day and checked my student > email constantly and there was no exam from the professor. So I sent a > reminder email to the professor and got no response. The next day I > checked my student email constantly and received no final exam. So on that > day I sent an another reminder email to the professor. So I was scheduled > to have a meeting with my Finite Math professor on Thursday of this week > and my disability coordinator was at the meeting. It was to discuss what > would work and what wouldn't work for my spring semester Finite Math > class. After this meeting was over I mentioned to my disability > coordinator about not receiving the final exam in electronic format from > my Sociology professor. Between me and the disability coordinator we came > up with an another email describing the ramficiations of ADA and for me to > receive the final exam in electronic format. Neither the disability > coordinator or I got a response. So my roommate was taking the same exact > class and I scanned a copy of the exam questions. > > It was recoomended by my disability coordinator to write a letter to this > professor after I received my final grade from the professor. My question > to everybody is should I proceed with my case? > > If this information helps anybody I attend Southern New Hampshire > University located in Manchester, New Hampshire > Any thoughts and opinions are welcome > > Thanks, > Eric Gaudes > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From davidb521 at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 23:03:10 2008 From: davidb521 at gmail.com (David Bouchard) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:03:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar Message-ID: <495bf9fc.0609c00a.2db9.43ba@mx.google.com> What time on Sunday will the meeting begin, and where will it be held? I am assuming it will be at the hotel in Washington. David -----Original Message----- From: J.J. Meddaugh Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar Hello. The NABS seminar will be held on Sunday, February 8. I hope you can join us. J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com A premier licensed Code Factory distributor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Spaulding" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:13 PM Subject: [nabs-l] student meeting at Washington seminar > When is the meeting? I don't remember hearing anything about it. I'm > planning on being in Baltimore the 6th & 7th, so if it is one of those > days, > I'll see about coming. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com