From monika_r_r at hotmail.com Fri Jun 5 20:10:19 2009 From: monika_r_r at hotmail.com (Monika Reinholz ) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:10:19 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Action Plan, Part 4 Message-ID: Joseph and all, I must agree with Arielle that NABS is not just for 18-25 year olds. I have been a member of CABS, and therefore, NABS since 2006. I am 28, almost 29 now, and not even blind but have made many friends since joining the NFB as a whole. I am glad to have joined as I have become a huge advocate for the cause...and more. I am sorry you feel the way you do Joseph but I can understand why you feel the way you do. You do bring up good points and I do feel we need to assist with such things, which I believe we (as in NABS and the NFB) are doing to the best of our ability. Of course this is MHO. In service, Monika.......................................................------ Original Message----- Date: Friday, June 05, 2009 9:22:37 am To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org From: T. Joseph Carter Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Action Plan, Part 4 Arielle, My opinion, worth about what you pay for it, is that NABS should neither start at age 18 nor stop at age 25. Here in Oregon, it is not uncommon for students to remain in "high school" until age 21 because of compromises made in and by the educational system in the state. I see it as our responsibility to work to correct that, which means we need the support of blind high school and middle school students, as well as parent involvement. If you fit into a certain income range, you don't qualify for financial aid grants until you turn 24, but haven't got enough income yourself or with family support to pay for college without them. I was such a person. I've nearly completed my Master's, and am continuing with my studies. I expect to finish at age 35, a full decade beyond the "typical" college age. I know students in their fifties. But it seems we have to go the other direction as well. Take Braille literacy for example. If we are serious about that issue, we must reach out to students as young as possible, and their parents. I don't know how active elementary-aged students would be in the organization, but I see great value in them having access to role models earning college or advanced degrees. I think I disagree with regard to the advocacy on local versus national issues. Support, advice, and suggestion are the easiest things to provide, and those have made a remarkable difference in some of the local issues here in Oregon. Even just getting the word out there that some of these things are happening can make a politician squeamish about voting in a way that hurts blind students. Joseph On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 03:17:15PM +1000, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Hi Joseph and all, >I don't know the context behind the comment you cited, and don't want >to openly criticize Ryan, but I'll just say briefly that I don't feel >this sentiment to be appropriate or true for most of the NABS >leadership. We don't stop at age 25. In fact, a lot of young >professionals who have recently completed their education, even if no >longer students, can still benefit from and in some cases can offer >leadership to our organization. I will admit that NABS has not always >done a good job of including students and professionals in their >mid-twenties or beyond. I appreciate the feedback and definitely want >to work on this, as well as building .... From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Fri Jun 5 20:13:21 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:13:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090605161321.79w1h38k2sowsg8o@webmail.utoronto.ca> Have fun! :D I'm so jealous! I wanted to go but am already in university. I hope it's a blast though. Sarah Quoting Lindsay Upschulte : > During the last week of July, I will be going to the Youth Slam in > College Park, Maryland. I was wondering who else is going. If you > are, please let me know. It would be interesting to get to know some > of you. > > Thanks! > -Linz > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From troubleclark at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 20:55:12 2009 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:55:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: <50A0D9C104B443A29FD1C9013A14F683@Dezman> References: <20090605025941.GK52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> <50A0D9C104B443A29FD1C9013A14F683@Dezman> Message-ID: I am going to the Youth Slam. I am from Maryland actually. I went to the first Youth Slam. On 6/5/09, Dezman Jackson wrote: > Joseph, > > Awsom, will be looking forward. > > Dezman > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "T. Joseph Carter" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 9:59 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Youth Slam > > >> Dezman, >> >> It will be great to meet you as well. I am also a mentor. >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 07:34:58PM -0500, Dezman Jackson wrote: >>> Lindsay, >>> >>> That's so awsom you're getting to go to Youth slam. I will be going as a >>> >>> mentor. It'll be cool to get to meet you. >>> >>> Dezman >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From cassonw at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 21:13:48 2009 From: cassonw at gmail.com (Bill) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 15:13:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26d2dfeb0906051413sf8c4278kc9149c3ad0071608@mail.gmail.com> I will also be attending youth slam this summer as a mentor. I think if you haven't heard back from them yet, you might not have been selected. I got my paper work back in early may. Bill On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Lindsay Upschulte < lindsayupschulte at gmail.com> wrote: During the last week of July, I will be going to the Youth Slam in College Park, Maryland. I was wondering who else is going. If you are, please let me know. It would be interesting to get to know some of you. Thanks! -Linz _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Sat Jun 6 01:50:01 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:50:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Presidents list? In-Reply-To: <20090605155814.GQ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090605155814.GQ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I handle the technical end, like with all lists. I generally receive instructions -- who to add or remove etc., from the nabs president. Dave At 10:58 AM 6/5/2009, you wrote: >Who exactly is responsible for the nabs-presidents mailing list? I >have sent about three emails to different individuals on the subject >and have never received a reply to any of them. > >Joseph > >-- >T. Joseph Carter, President >Oregon Association of Blind Students >carter.tjoseph at gmail.com >503-562-9299 > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4134 (20090605) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com > > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:25:59 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 06:25:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Presidents list? In-Reply-To: References: <20090605155814.GQ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090606132559.GF316@yumi.bluecherry.net> Dave, Then I don't know why Terri hasn't passed it along at any point in the past month: Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:36:48 -0700 From: "T. Joseph Carter" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] State president mailing list To: nabs.president at gmail.com Hi Terri, I submitted a subscription request online, but in case that doesn't work the way it should (it said that the requests would go to someone who I didn't immediately recognize as a student), I figured I should send you a message directly. The best email address to use is carter.tjoseph at gmail.com since it's the one that I use for all other NFB lists. Joseph -- T. Joseph Carter, President Oregon Association of Blind Students carter.tjoseph at gmail.com 503-562-9299 Is there some reason a NABS president would not be welcome on the presidents list? Or is this just a case of having a single point of failure that, for whatever reason, has failed? I have no way to know, since I'm essentially being ignored. Joseph -- T. Joseph Carter, President Oregon Association of Blind Students carter.tjoseph at gmail.com 503-562-9299 On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 08:50:01PM -0500, David Andrews wrote: > I handle the technical end, like with all lists. I generally receive > instructions -- who to add or remove etc., from the nabs president. > > Dave > > At 10:58 AM 6/5/2009, you wrote: >> Who exactly is responsible for the nabs-presidents mailing list? I >> have sent about three emails to different individuals on the subject >> and have never received a reply to any of them. >> >> Joseph >> >> -- >> T. Joseph Carter, President >> Oregon Association of Blind Students >> carter.tjoseph at gmail.com >> 503-562-9299 From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 23:06:32 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:06:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Action Plan, Part 4 In-Reply-To: <20090605025808.GJ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <37D4F3F6879145719F3CAA5EA0CC5B11@Rufus> <20090605025808.GJ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090606230632.GE5234@yumi.bluecherry.net> Since about three people have told me there are other factors Ryan may not have wanted to drag me into, I'll chalk up his comment in response to my question as possibly the best answer he could think of to avoid doing so. I am certain he had no idea something he offered dismissively would be taken personally. With that perspective, I no longer do. It seems important to me, though, to set the record straight. I was apparently wrong about this. I continue to believe that NABS should work to reach out to both younger and older students to advance the goals of this organization and of the NFB as a whole. Joseph On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 07:58:08PM -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Joe, > > I still believe that you are the only person I have seen on this list > who is capable of realizing this plan. Yet I do not believe your > proposal is likely to be implemented in whole or even in significant > part at this time. You say that these ideas are less ambitious than > those the earliest Federationists took upon themselves, and you are > right. That said, however, NABS appears to presently have a much > narrower focus in terms of what it wants to do, and for whom. > > I tried to drum up some support to convince you to run for the NABS > presidency, as you already know. I stopped when I read this comment > written by Ryan Strunk: "...he's too old. The division is made up of 18 > to 25 year olds. He's slipping outside of that range..." > > I have to tell you that I have never felt less welcome by any NFB > affiliate than when I read those comments by a former president of > NABS—the guy who ran this organization during my first opportunity to > meet with students involved in this organization. I was more than a > little hurt to read that comment. > > I have been one of those busting my butt here in Oregon to establish the > Oregon NABS affiliate while battling harsh and vindictive discrimination > in my university and a ruthless effort to close the Oregon School for the > Blind. When the term ends next week, the discrimination will end with > it. With "normal" academic demands, there's far more I believe I can do, > and far more that I want to do. > > Until our NABS leadership begins to look to expand the organization > beyond the narrow scope of 18-25 year olds and its present fear of > actual disagreement on any issue of substance, NABS will be little more > than a social club. Without a wider demographic target and the > occasional willingness to take on a difficult or controversial topic, > NABS cannot be what it should be: A powerful student organization that > speaks for the blind student with a unified voice that will not be > ignored. > > Now, one of my personality traits is that I am very results oriented. > This is both a strength and a limitation; I will leave it to the reader > to determine which it is today: I have no time for a social club, but I > will make time for the powerful student association. > > Joseph > > > On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 05:02:06PM -0400, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> 1. The Student Slate >> >> In my opinion, no job in the NABS board is more frustrating than the >> editorship of the Student Slate. Thankfully, I have never had to wear the >> hat of editor for the newsletter, but I have in some way assisted with its >> revision and compilation for the past four years. You will of course notice >> that in the past four years the publication of the newsletter has not been >> consistent, and while it may be all too easy to blame the editor, perhaps >> even the board as a whole, for not doing their job, I assure you the blame >> is completely your own for not writing an article when articles have been >> requested. >> >> It's ironic really. On the NABS-L list alone you might come across twenty >> posts from a single individual telling you the same thing twenty different >> times in the course of a single day. Some people wonder where they find the >> time to post so much. I wonder why these people haven't written articles? >> This is not a rhetorical question. If the shoe fits, talk to Jennifer >> Kennedy about how to submit something for publication. Unless things have >> changed, it was my understanding she wanted to put out another issue prior >> to convention. >> >> I offer two alternatives: >> >> A. Impose a moratorium on the Student Slate >> >> Every national organization should have a regular publication, but if this >> cannot be done, put it to sleep temporarily. Instead, come out with a >> monthly briefing. ... I know, you're thinking that if we can't get our act >> together on a publication that is supposed to be published four times a >> year, how in hell are we going to push one out once a month? People assume >> a publication has to be long and brimming with information. It does not >> have to be written that way. A simple update on the state of the division >> would suffice. A word from the president letting the membership know what >> the board has been doing and what it is planning is sufficient. Think of it >> as a condensed version of the Presidential Releases Dr. Maurer puts out for >> the organization at large. Even a well-written, well-organized one-pager >> would keep the masses happy, because it lets them know that their board is >> doing something beneficial. Later, when the division picks up steam and the >> Student Slate can be revived, feel free to bring it back. >> >> B. Turn the Student Slate into a magazine format >> >> If the idea of putting the Student Slate is too much of a break from >> tradition, consider changing the overall format of the publication. Right >> now we have five or six different stories of people doing great things in >> their lives. I think this is fine, but after a while we must surely realize >> that there are only so many ways to be an awesome blind person. As much as >> I enjoyed the Kernel book series, I was not all that sad to see it end, >> because many of the stories are of the type of material that can be found in >> the Braille Monitor. >> >> So, consider beginning special columns. You can have an interview column >> that focuses on the accomplishments of a board member or another leader in >> the NFB, or consider going out and interviewing someone who is not in the >> organization but who is still doing something great with themselves. I >> wouldn't mind reading an interview from Ginny Owens or David Paterson. Now >> you're probably thinking it would be too hard to interview those people. >> Begin with their publicist, chief of staff, publisher, depending on the >> nature of the person's profession. You could have a column on emerging >> technology. You could have another column on fashion sense and socializing. >> Another column could focus on following our legislative progress. Dear >> Abby? Remember, this is a student publication. The idea is not without >> merit, especially if the inquiries are of the variety related to blindness >> that some people are too shy to ask. >> >> Whether you go with the first suggestion or the second, you need not feel as >> though you yourself have to be generating all the news. Sometimes >> newsletters focus completely on the noise other people are creating, but the >> news is validated because it is coming from you. >> >> If partnerships are established, you can elevate your publication by >> incorporating the developments of those organizations. Using last >> installment's examples, you could reprint an article from Sports and >> Recreation's Competition Corner. You could help promote an event for the >> parents. In either case, you can expect that the gesture will be >> reciprocated, and any opportunity to expand your scope lends you the perfect >> opportunity to further highlight the funders that will begin to invest in >> your cause with all the popularity you slowly begin to accumulate. >> >> 2. Awards >> >> Hard work should be recognized. Just as the state affiliate with the >> greatest number of registered convention participants is given a banner, the >> state student division with the greatest number of registered students >> should receive a banner or certificate or trophy or some other type of >> incentive. Maybe a contest should be arranged to find the best looking >> banner? In either case, this begins to set up a friendly competition among >> the state divisions to recruit and bring the most number of members they can >> to convention. Alternatively, recognize state divisions for simply doing a >> good job regardless of the number of people they bring to the national >> convention. Some states may not have the numbers but do wonderful things to >> keep things happening in their states. >> >> I like the idea of the Blind Bargains web site recognizing companies for >> their innovative solutions. Why could NABS not run a similar voting session >> to recognize an exceptional DSS office, organization or company doing great >> things on behalf of the blind population, particularly students? Part of >> making a name for your organization comes with building your own sense of >> prestige. You represent the greatest number of blind students in the >> country. Now take this claim and legitimize your position by handing out >> certificates to groups deserving of your formal recognition. If you are >> successful at creating a good image for your activities, other people will >> buy into your elevated position and will want to be associated with what you >> have to offer. >> >> And, where is the harm in recognizing rising stars amongst the student >> ranks? Some of you are really out there busting your butts, making a >> difference and generally making the rest of us look good. We should know >> who you are, what you're doing and how we can learn from your success. A >> student of the year award would not be, in my opinion, out of line as a >> well-organized promotion and recruitment tool. >> >> Make these awards a part of the annual business meeting or winter banquet. >> Create the right amount of hype around the occasion, and in no time this new >> tradition could be manipulated to serve several important functions. >> >> 3. Community Service >> >> Nothing builds character more profoundly than the satisfaction of working >> hard to help others. In the NFB we pride ourselves in helping other blind >> people achieve higher levels of independence and self-sufficiency. I >> believe this should only be half of the equation. The NFB philosophy is >> primarily built on the notion that blind people can and should adjust to >> society rather than expect society to adjust to the blind. Therefore, in my >> opinion, it is not enough to convince a person that it can be respectable to >> be blind. I believe the step beyond this persuasion is to show them how to >> succeed despite being blind. After all, it makes very little sense to >> produce a fully competent blind hero if said hero is not given a means to >> exercise his or her newfound skills. To me, there is nothing more >> discouraging than seeing an awesome blind person stay in the blindness field >> because they feel that is the only field where they can continue to be >> awesome. >> >> So, I think we should take our philosophy a step further. If we truly >> believe that success is contingent on our adjustment to society, we should >> make it our business to help society as much, if not more, than we help our >> fellow blind people. To that end I believe every state student division >> should democratically select an issue the membership feels strongly about >> lending their support. These issues can be poverty and homelessness, >> disaster prevention, civic action, health and fitness, etc. >> >> Benefits: >> >> A. Visibility >> >> Blind people are all too often seen as the beneficiaries of social services >> rather than the contributors. What better way to discourage this general >> notion than the active participation of blind people in social activities >> that help vulnerable populations. Earlier I said that state student >> divisions should each select an issue, but I do not think it impossible for >> NABS representatives to take time from National Convention or Washington >> Seminar to prepare and distribute food for the homeless at a local soup >> kitchen. The argument will be made that there is already too much going on >> during these national gatherings. I would respond with a reminder that most >> of the activities going on during these events are geared at promoting >> independence, and there will never be a better time to make a statement of >> this independence amongst ourselves and to the public than a concerted >> effort at putting independence into practice in the company of blind people >> with such a wide array of skills. Maximum impact will always be achieved >> away from the microphone rather than behind it. >> >> Imagine yourselves participating in a walk-a-thon supporting the cause of >> your choice with t-shirts sporting the name of your division. It's a good >> public relations technique wrapped up in social integration. You'll make >> new friends and therefore make yourself stronger as an individual while you >> make NABS a stronger organization. >> >> You will not weaken your division because you are not making community >> service the centerpiece of your operation. You are simply making service >> the added bonus of belonging to the group and a convenient avenue to >> practice what you preach. >> >> B. Job Readiness >> >> Blind people will have a more difficult task of finding a job if they have >> never been given the opportunity to learn the basic skills that are not >> taught in the classroom. Budgeting, filing, e-mail etiquette, project >> management and so on could be learned by reading a number of web sites and >> enrolling in a few specialized courses, but if you do not have examples of >> how these skills have been utilized, what good are they in your resume? >> Volunteer opportunities do not always involve rolling up your sleeves and >> picking up garbage along the highway. You should do these activities at >> least once anyway, because one of my more memorable bonding experiences came >> about in a human chain as we worked to clear out trash from underneath a >> church building. Yet, you could help an organization build and maintain a >> web site. You could help them write press releases. You could help a >> teacher at an after school program tutor children. Whatever the case may >> be, pick a cause you and your members would enjoy doing and go out and do it >> together. You will grow closer as a group and learn to improve skills than >> can later be used in the hunt for an awesome job. >> >> C. Partnerships >> >> In the last installment I wrote of the benefits of establishing >> partnerships. In this context, think of the visibility another organization >> could help bring you through your participation in their activities. The >> Humane Society, the Red Cross, Boys and Girls Club, Boy Scouts, the American >> Cancer Society are all prolific outfits that could benefit from your help in >> exchange for publicity. Your involvement in their activities could also >> help generate more material for your fundraising efforts. Sponsors like to >> see what you're about, and while seminars to encourage blind students to be >> great people are great things for us, a prospective funder will be much more >> impressed if you can show how your preaching is ultimately helping your >> local communities. Find different ways to maximize your bang for their >> buck, and perhaps even more importantly, find ways to have fun exercising >> the NFB philosophy. Volunteer service really can be exciting if you find >> several ways to make it work for you and the organization you represent. >> >> This concludes the list of changes I would have offered in my hypothetical >> presidency. As I've said, these were geared for the division at the >> national level, but I hope I gave you enough of a glimpse of how they could >> be implemented at the state level with equal efficiency. So far there are >> at least fifteen pages worth of ideas and suggestions anyone could take and >> make happen both at the state and national levels. Though the ideas may >> seem elaborate, they are really nothing more than cumulative blocks that >> work in sync with one another if properly coordinated. My overriding theme >> has been job readiness and collaboration. Ultimately I believe the >> membership should enjoy being a part of NABS and to a greater extent the >> NFB. The board ought to be able to count on partnerships with other >> divisions, organizations and companies to make the work of implementing >> these plans possible. Other people could generate their own themes and >> platforms and produce their own lists of objectives with equal or better >> success if they only took the time to map it out. >> >> There would be a few other minor things I would like to see implemented >> regardless of who assumes the presidency of the national student division. >> Create a division song. Roll out bracelets or some other apparel. Write a >> division pledge. Propose a division toast at the winter banquet. In >> essence, think of little customs and traditions that can be specific to >> NABS. Make NABS something cool to belong to, and keep it balanced, because >> remember your audience can range from the five-year-old Kindergartner to the >> fifty-year-old doctoral candidate. >> >> I understand there are people in the ranks who believe my proposal is too >> much to swallow on account of us being volunteers. To these individuals I >> say, "Come up with a better excuse." The small group of volunteers who met >> to dream of and conceive the National Federation of the Blind did not think >> their vision was too ambitious, and their tasks in the thirty years >> following the organization's establishment were far more complex and >> daunting than my little rambling proposal as a whole. I do not believe the >> things I have outlined need to be implemented next week. In fact, I believe >> it would take a couple years to establish a good foundation, but the point >> is that you have to start somewhere. You have to take a few risks. You >> have to allow yourself to be held accountable. You have to learn to want >> and expect more, and you have to allow your ideas to be challenged and >> changed by the people you will trust to get it all done. >> >> But, we can cover these points in the next installment of my meandering >> thoughts, where I offer my controversial views on student leadership. >> >> To be continued... >> >> Joe Orozco >> >> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the >> crowd."--Max Lucado >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >> database 4131 (20090604) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Jun 7 01:02:04 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:02:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Presidents list? In-Reply-To: <20090606132559.GF316@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090605155814.GQ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090606132559.GF316@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I will add you as I know you are a good and loyal member! Dave At 08:25 AM 6/6/2009, you wrote: >Dave, > >Then I don't know why Terri hasn't passed it along at any point in >the past month: > > Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:36:48 -0700 > From: "T. Joseph Carter" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] State president mailing list > To: nabs.president at gmail.com > > Hi Terri, > > I submitted a subscription request online, but in case that doesn't > work the way it should (it said that the requests would go to > someone who I didn't immediately recognize as a student), I figured > I should send you a message directly. > > The best email address to use is carter.tjoseph at gmail.com since > it's the one that I use for all other NFB lists. > > Joseph > > -- T. Joseph Carter, President > Oregon Association of Blind Students > carter.tjoseph at gmail.com > 503-562-9299 > > >Is there some reason a NABS president would not be welcome on the >presidents list? Or is this just a case of having a single point of >failure that, for whatever reason, has failed? I have no way to >know, since I'm essentially being ignored. > >Joseph > >-- >T. Joseph Carter, President >Oregon Association of Blind Students >carter.tjoseph at gmail.com >503-562-9299 > > >On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 08:50:01PM -0500, David Andrews wrote: >>I handle the technical end, like with all lists. I generally receive >>instructions -- who to add or remove etc., from the nabs president. >> >>Dave >> >>At 10:58 AM 6/5/2009, you wrote: >>>Who exactly is responsible for the nabs-presidents mailing list? I >>>have sent about three emails to different individuals on the subject >>>and have never received a reply to any of them. >>> >>>Joseph >>> >>>-- >>>T. Joseph Carter, President >>>Oregon Association of Blind Students >>>carter.tjoseph at gmail.com >>>503-562-9299 > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4135 (20090606) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com > > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 01:09:44 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:09:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Action Plan, Part 4 In-Reply-To: <20090606230632.GE5234@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <37D4F3F6879145719F3CAA5EA0CC5B11@Rufus> <20090605025808.GJ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090606230632.GE5234@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906061809qce25fe0jefd60a63be07852b@mail.gmail.com> I second that, Joseph, after reading Joe's awesome proposals. I know plenty of people, young and old, that would enefit from NABS and its organization. Beth On 6/6/09, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Since about three people have told me there are other factors Ryan > may not have wanted to drag me into, I'll chalk up his comment in > response to my question as possibly the best answer he could think of > to avoid doing so. I am certain he had no idea something he offered > dismissively would be taken personally. > > With that perspective, I no longer do. It seems important to me, > though, to set the record straight. I was apparently wrong about > this. > > I continue to believe that NABS should work to reach out to both > younger and older students to advance the goals of this organization > and of the NFB as a whole. > > Joseph > > > On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 07:58:08PM -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Joe, >> >> I still believe that you are the only person I have seen on this list >> who is capable of realizing this plan. Yet I do not believe your >> proposal is likely to be implemented in whole or even in significant >> part at this time. You say that these ideas are less ambitious than >> those the earliest Federationists took upon themselves, and you are >> right. That said, however, NABS appears to presently have a much >> narrower focus in terms of what it wants to do, and for whom. >> >> I tried to drum up some support to convince you to run for the NABS >> presidency, as you already know. I stopped when I read this comment >> written by Ryan Strunk: "...he's too old. The division is made up of 18 >> to 25 year olds. He's slipping outside of that range..." >> >> I have to tell you that I have never felt less welcome by any NFB >> affiliate than when I read those comments by a former president of >> NABS—the guy who ran this organization during my first opportunity to >> meet with students involved in this organization. I was more than a >> little hurt to read that comment. >> >> I have been one of those busting my butt here in Oregon to establish the >> Oregon NABS affiliate while battling harsh and vindictive discrimination >> in my university and a ruthless effort to close the Oregon School for the >> Blind. When the term ends next week, the discrimination will end with >> it. With "normal" academic demands, there's far more I believe I can do, >> and far more that I want to do. >> >> Until our NABS leadership begins to look to expand the organization >> beyond the narrow scope of 18-25 year olds and its present fear of >> actual disagreement on any issue of substance, NABS will be little more >> than a social club. Without a wider demographic target and the >> occasional willingness to take on a difficult or controversial topic, >> NABS cannot be what it should be: A powerful student organization that >> speaks for the blind student with a unified voice that will not be >> ignored. >> >> Now, one of my personality traits is that I am very results oriented. >> This is both a strength and a limitation; I will leave it to the reader >> to determine which it is today: I have no time for a social club, but I >> will make time for the powerful student association. >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 05:02:06PM -0400, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> 1. The Student Slate >>> >>> In my opinion, no job in the NABS board is more frustrating than the >>> editorship of the Student Slate. Thankfully, I have never had to wear >>> the >>> hat of editor for the newsletter, but I have in some way assisted with >>> its >>> revision and compilation for the past four years. You will of course >>> notice >>> that in the past four years the publication of the newsletter has not >>> been >>> consistent, and while it may be all too easy to blame the editor, perhaps >>> even the board as a whole, for not doing their job, I assure you the >>> blame >>> is completely your own for not writing an article when articles have been >>> requested. >>> >>> It's ironic really. On the NABS-L list alone you might come across >>> twenty >>> posts from a single individual telling you the same thing twenty >>> different >>> times in the course of a single day. Some people wonder where they find >>> the >>> time to post so much. I wonder why these people haven't written >>> articles? >>> This is not a rhetorical question. If the shoe fits, talk to Jennifer >>> Kennedy about how to submit something for publication. Unless things >>> have >>> changed, it was my understanding she wanted to put out another issue >>> prior >>> to convention. >>> >>> I offer two alternatives: >>> >>> A. Impose a moratorium on the Student Slate >>> >>> Every national organization should have a regular publication, but if >>> this >>> cannot be done, put it to sleep temporarily. Instead, come out with a >>> monthly briefing. ... I know, you're thinking that if we can't get our >>> act >>> together on a publication that is supposed to be published four times a >>> year, how in hell are we going to push one out once a month? People >>> assume >>> a publication has to be long and brimming with information. It does not >>> have to be written that way. A simple update on the state of the >>> division >>> would suffice. A word from the president letting the membership know >>> what >>> the board has been doing and what it is planning is sufficient. Think of >>> it >>> as a condensed version of the Presidential Releases Dr. Maurer puts out >>> for >>> the organization at large. Even a well-written, well-organized one-pager >>> would keep the masses happy, because it lets them know that their board >>> is >>> doing something beneficial. Later, when the division picks up steam and >>> the >>> Student Slate can be revived, feel free to bring it back. >>> >>> B. Turn the Student Slate into a magazine format >>> >>> If the idea of putting the Student Slate is too much of a break from >>> tradition, consider changing the overall format of the publication. >>> Right >>> now we have five or six different stories of people doing great things in >>> their lives. I think this is fine, but after a while we must surely >>> realize >>> that there are only so many ways to be an awesome blind person. As much >>> as >>> I enjoyed the Kernel book series, I was not all that sad to see it end, >>> because many of the stories are of the type of material that can be found >>> in >>> the Braille Monitor. >>> >>> So, consider beginning special columns. You can have an interview column >>> that focuses on the accomplishments of a board member or another leader >>> in >>> the NFB, or consider going out and interviewing someone who is not in the >>> organization but who is still doing something great with themselves. I >>> wouldn't mind reading an interview from Ginny Owens or David Paterson. >>> Now >>> you're probably thinking it would be too hard to interview those people. >>> Begin with their publicist, chief of staff, publisher, depending on the >>> nature of the person's profession. You could have a column on emerging >>> technology. You could have another column on fashion sense and >>> socializing. >>> Another column could focus on following our legislative progress. Dear >>> Abby? Remember, this is a student publication. The idea is not without >>> merit, especially if the inquiries are of the variety related to >>> blindness >>> that some people are too shy to ask. >>> >>> Whether you go with the first suggestion or the second, you need not feel >>> as >>> though you yourself have to be generating all the news. Sometimes >>> newsletters focus completely on the noise other people are creating, but >>> the >>> news is validated because it is coming from you. >>> >>> If partnerships are established, you can elevate your publication by >>> incorporating the developments of those organizations. Using last >>> installment's examples, you could reprint an article from Sports and >>> Recreation's Competition Corner. You could help promote an event for the >>> parents. In either case, you can expect that the gesture will be >>> reciprocated, and any opportunity to expand your scope lends you the >>> perfect >>> opportunity to further highlight the funders that will begin to invest in >>> your cause with all the popularity you slowly begin to accumulate. >>> >>> 2. Awards >>> >>> Hard work should be recognized. Just as the state affiliate with the >>> greatest number of registered convention participants is given a banner, >>> the >>> state student division with the greatest number of registered students >>> should receive a banner or certificate or trophy or some other type of >>> incentive. Maybe a contest should be arranged to find the best looking >>> banner? In either case, this begins to set up a friendly competition >>> among >>> the state divisions to recruit and bring the most number of members they >>> can >>> to convention. Alternatively, recognize state divisions for simply doing >>> a >>> good job regardless of the number of people they bring to the national >>> convention. Some states may not have the numbers but do wonderful things >>> to >>> keep things happening in their states. >>> >>> I like the idea of the Blind Bargains web site recognizing companies for >>> their innovative solutions. Why could NABS not run a similar voting >>> session >>> to recognize an exceptional DSS office, organization or company doing >>> great >>> things on behalf of the blind population, particularly students? Part of >>> making a name for your organization comes with building your own sense of >>> prestige. You represent the greatest number of blind students in the >>> country. Now take this claim and legitimize your position by handing out >>> certificates to groups deserving of your formal recognition. If you are >>> successful at creating a good image for your activities, other people >>> will >>> buy into your elevated position and will want to be associated with what >>> you >>> have to offer. >>> >>> And, where is the harm in recognizing rising stars amongst the student >>> ranks? Some of you are really out there busting your butts, making a >>> difference and generally making the rest of us look good. We should know >>> who you are, what you're doing and how we can learn from your success. A >>> student of the year award would not be, in my opinion, out of line as a >>> well-organized promotion and recruitment tool. >>> >>> Make these awards a part of the annual business meeting or winter >>> banquet. >>> Create the right amount of hype around the occasion, and in no time this >>> new >>> tradition could be manipulated to serve several important functions. >>> >>> 3. Community Service >>> >>> Nothing builds character more profoundly than the satisfaction of working >>> hard to help others. In the NFB we pride ourselves in helping other >>> blind >>> people achieve higher levels of independence and self-sufficiency. I >>> believe this should only be half of the equation. The NFB philosophy is >>> primarily built on the notion that blind people can and should adjust to >>> society rather than expect society to adjust to the blind. Therefore, in >>> my >>> opinion, it is not enough to convince a person that it can be respectable >>> to >>> be blind. I believe the step beyond this persuasion is to show them how >>> to >>> succeed despite being blind. After all, it makes very little sense to >>> produce a fully competent blind hero if said hero is not given a means to >>> exercise his or her newfound skills. To me, there is nothing more >>> discouraging than seeing an awesome blind person stay in the blindness >>> field >>> because they feel that is the only field where they can continue to be >>> awesome. >>> >>> So, I think we should take our philosophy a step further. If we truly >>> believe that success is contingent on our adjustment to society, we >>> should >>> make it our business to help society as much, if not more, than we help >>> our >>> fellow blind people. To that end I believe every state student division >>> should democratically select an issue the membership feels strongly about >>> lending their support. These issues can be poverty and homelessness, >>> disaster prevention, civic action, health and fitness, etc. >>> >>> Benefits: >>> >>> A. Visibility >>> >>> Blind people are all too often seen as the beneficiaries of social >>> services >>> rather than the contributors. What better way to discourage this general >>> notion than the active participation of blind people in social activities >>> that help vulnerable populations. Earlier I said that state student >>> divisions should each select an issue, but I do not think it impossible >>> for >>> NABS representatives to take time from National Convention or Washington >>> Seminar to prepare and distribute food for the homeless at a local soup >>> kitchen. The argument will be made that there is already too much going >>> on >>> during these national gatherings. I would respond with a reminder that >>> most >>> of the activities going on during these events are geared at promoting >>> independence, and there will never be a better time to make a statement >>> of >>> this independence amongst ourselves and to the public than a concerted >>> effort at putting independence into practice in the company of blind >>> people >>> with such a wide array of skills. Maximum impact will always be achieved >>> away from the microphone rather than behind it. >>> >>> Imagine yourselves participating in a walk-a-thon supporting the cause of >>> your choice with t-shirts sporting the name of your division. It's a >>> good >>> public relations technique wrapped up in social integration. You'll make >>> new friends and therefore make yourself stronger as an individual while >>> you >>> make NABS a stronger organization. >>> >>> You will not weaken your division because you are not making community >>> service the centerpiece of your operation. You are simply making service >>> the added bonus of belonging to the group and a convenient avenue to >>> practice what you preach. >>> >>> B. Job Readiness >>> >>> Blind people will have a more difficult task of finding a job if they >>> have >>> never been given the opportunity to learn the basic skills that are not >>> taught in the classroom. Budgeting, filing, e-mail etiquette, project >>> management and so on could be learned by reading a number of web sites >>> and >>> enrolling in a few specialized courses, but if you do not have examples >>> of >>> how these skills have been utilized, what good are they in your resume? >>> Volunteer opportunities do not always involve rolling up your sleeves and >>> picking up garbage along the highway. You should do these activities at >>> least once anyway, because one of my more memorable bonding experiences >>> came >>> about in a human chain as we worked to clear out trash from underneath a >>> church building. Yet, you could help an organization build and maintain >>> a >>> web site. You could help them write press releases. You could help a >>> teacher at an after school program tutor children. Whatever the case may >>> be, pick a cause you and your members would enjoy doing and go out and do >>> it >>> together. You will grow closer as a group and learn to improve skills >>> than >>> can later be used in the hunt for an awesome job. >>> >>> C. Partnerships >>> >>> In the last installment I wrote of the benefits of establishing >>> partnerships. In this context, think of the visibility another >>> organization >>> could help bring you through your participation in their activities. The >>> Humane Society, the Red Cross, Boys and Girls Club, Boy Scouts, the >>> American >>> Cancer Society are all prolific outfits that could benefit from your help >>> in >>> exchange for publicity. Your involvement in their activities could also >>> help generate more material for your fundraising efforts. Sponsors like >>> to >>> see what you're about, and while seminars to encourage blind students to >>> be >>> great people are great things for us, a prospective funder will be much >>> more >>> impressed if you can show how your preaching is ultimately helping your >>> local communities. Find different ways to maximize your bang for their >>> buck, and perhaps even more importantly, find ways to have fun exercising >>> the NFB philosophy. Volunteer service really can be exciting if you find >>> several ways to make it work for you and the organization you represent. >>> >>> This concludes the list of changes I would have offered in my >>> hypothetical >>> presidency. As I've said, these were geared for the division at the >>> national level, but I hope I gave you enough of a glimpse of how they >>> could >>> be implemented at the state level with equal efficiency. So far there >>> are >>> at least fifteen pages worth of ideas and suggestions anyone could take >>> and >>> make happen both at the state and national levels. Though the ideas may >>> seem elaborate, they are really nothing more than cumulative blocks that >>> work in sync with one another if properly coordinated. My overriding >>> theme >>> has been job readiness and collaboration. Ultimately I believe the >>> membership should enjoy being a part of NABS and to a greater extent the >>> NFB. The board ought to be able to count on partnerships with other >>> divisions, organizations and companies to make the work of implementing >>> these plans possible. Other people could generate their own themes and >>> platforms and produce their own lists of objectives with equal or better >>> success if they only took the time to map it out. >>> >>> There would be a few other minor things I would like to see implemented >>> regardless of who assumes the presidency of the national student >>> division. >>> Create a division song. Roll out bracelets or some other apparel. Write >>> a >>> division pledge. Propose a division toast at the winter banquet. In >>> essence, think of little customs and traditions that can be specific to >>> NABS. Make NABS something cool to belong to, and keep it balanced, >>> because >>> remember your audience can range from the five-year-old Kindergartner to >>> the >>> fifty-year-old doctoral candidate. >>> >>> I understand there are people in the ranks who believe my proposal is too >>> much to swallow on account of us being volunteers. To these individuals >>> I >>> say, "Come up with a better excuse." The small group of volunteers who >>> met >>> to dream of and conceive the National Federation of the Blind did not >>> think >>> their vision was too ambitious, and their tasks in the thirty years >>> following the organization's establishment were far more complex and >>> daunting than my little rambling proposal as a whole. I do not believe >>> the >>> things I have outlined need to be implemented next week. In fact, I >>> believe >>> it would take a couple years to establish a good foundation, but the >>> point >>> is that you have to start somewhere. You have to take a few risks. You >>> have to allow yourself to be held accountable. You have to learn to want >>> and expect more, and you have to allow your ideas to be challenged and >>> changed by the people you will trust to get it all done. >>> >>> But, we can cover these points in the next installment of my meandering >>> thoughts, where I offer my controversial views on student leadership. >>> >>> To be continued... >>> >>> Joe Orozco >>> >>> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the >>> crowd."--Max Lucado >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 4131 (20090604) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 02:15:52 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 19:15:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Presidents list? In-Reply-To: References: <20090605155814.GQ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090606132559.GF316@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090607021552.GB6543@yumi.bluecherry.net> Thanks Dave, Some might question that "good" part a little since I am known to ask questions when something doesn't make sense. But I'll try to behave myself. Joseph On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 08:02:04PM -0500, David Andrews wrote: > I will add you as I know you are a good and loyal member! > > Dave > > At 08:25 AM 6/6/2009, you wrote: >> Dave, >> >> Then I don't know why Terri hasn't passed it along at any point in the >> past month: >> >> Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:36:48 -0700 >> From: "T. Joseph Carter" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] State president mailing list >> To: nabs.president at gmail.com >> >> Hi Terri, >> >> I submitted a subscription request online, but in case that doesn't >> work the way it should (it said that the requests would go to >> someone who I didn't immediately recognize as a student), I figured >> I should send you a message directly. >> >> The best email address to use is carter.tjoseph at gmail.com since it's >> the one that I use for all other NFB lists. >> >> Joseph >> >> -- T. Joseph Carter, President >> Oregon Association of Blind Students >> carter.tjoseph at gmail.com >> 503-562-9299 >> >> >> Is there some reason a NABS president would not be welcome on the >> presidents list? Or is this just a case of having a single point of >> failure that, for whatever reason, has failed? I have no way to know, >> since I'm essentially being ignored. >> >> Joseph >> >> -- >> T. Joseph Carter, President >> Oregon Association of Blind Students >> carter.tjoseph at gmail.com >> 503-562-9299 >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 08:50:01PM -0500, David Andrews wrote: >>> I handle the technical end, like with all lists. I generally receive >>> instructions -- who to add or remove etc., from the nabs president. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 10:58 AM 6/5/2009, you wrote: >>>> Who exactly is responsible for the nabs-presidents mailing list? I >>>> have sent about three emails to different individuals on the subject >>>> and have never received a reply to any of them. >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> -- >>>> T. Joseph Carter, President >>>> Oregon Association of Blind Students >>>> carter.tjoseph at gmail.com >>>> 503-562-9299 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 4135 (20090606) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From troubleclark at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:44:13 2009 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:44:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: <26d2dfeb0906051413sf8c4278kc9149c3ad0071608@mail.gmail.com> References: <26d2dfeb0906051413sf8c4278kc9149c3ad0071608@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I am going as a student again this summer. Nathan On 6/5/09, Bill wrote: > I will also be attending youth slam this summer as a mentor. I think if you > haven't heard back from them yet, you might not have been selected. I got > my paper work back in early may. > > Bill > > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Lindsay Upschulte < > lindsayupschulte at gmail.com> wrote: > > During the last week of July, I will be going to the Youth Slam in > College Park, Maryland. I was wondering who else is going. If you > are, please let me know. It would be interesting to get to know some > of you. > > Thanks! > -Linz > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From marrie12 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 19:42:15 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:42:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From Message-ID: <8AF85696854F43A7BF007F09D2FD9D90@sacomputer> Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From the EU and US Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU resistance Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU resistance OUT-LAW News, 03/06/2009 A proposed treaty that would change copyright laws to allow the supply of books across borders for the benefit of blind people has survived resistance from the US, UK, France, Germany and other countries. A committee of the World Intellectual Property Organisation agreed on Friday "to continue without delay" its work on "facilitating the access of blind, visually-impaired and other reading-disabled persons to copyright-protected works." At the heart of this work is a treaty proposed by the charitable organisation World Blind Union (WBU) and written with the help of the UK's Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) . RNIB campaign manager Dan Pescod attended the five-day meeting in Geneva. Pescod told OUT-LAW today that the UK and the US were among a group of countries that did not support the treaty and preferred 'soft options', though they stopped short of formally opposing it. Around 95% of books are never published in any format other than standard print, according to the WBU. But visually impaired people need books in other formats, such as large print, Braille and audio. People with other disabilities, such as cognitive impairments, can also find themselves 'print disabled'. "Imagine if you walked into a bookshop or library, and were told that you were only allowed to choose from five percent of the books on the shelf," said WBU president Dr William Rowland in a speech last year. "What would such a limited choice do to your education, to your leisure reading opportunities?" The WBU, RNIB and others have prepared a draft treaty that would relax copyright restrictions to allow the creation and supply of accessible books without the need for prior permission from the copyright owner. The treaty requires this generally to be done on a non-profit basis. In some countries, it is already legal to create accessible books without permission. It was made legal in the UK by the Copyright (Visually Impaired Persons) Act, passed in 2002. But that law is limited in scope. The rights are limited to visually-impaired persons - so while a person with dyslexia might benefit from a large-print book, or an electronic book which can be played using text-to-speech conversion software, the law does not facilitate that person. Also, the UK law, like equivalent laws in other countries, does not allow the supply of a digital book to a customer overseas. The WBU treaty, if signed and ratified in its present form, would lift these restrictions. It seeks to protect all 'reading disabled' persons and it allows the supply across borders of accessible works, as a Braille hard copy or as an e-book. At present, a tiny fraction of books that are available in accessible formats can be supplied across borders because their export requires the agreement of rights holders. Pescod said publishers have until recently seen little money to be made from converting books into accessible formats, meaning that the work is normally done by voluntary organisations like RNIB. "If we make an accessible version of a book in the UK and want to send that to another English-speaking country where they don't have the resources to make books accessible, we should be able to do that," he said. "But the copyright law as it stands doesn't allow the transfer of that accessible info. The exceptions in place in national legislations stop at the border." The preamble to the treaty notes that "90 percent of visually-impaired persons live in countries of low or moderate incomes." These countries tend to have the most limited ranges of accessible works, hence the need for a right to supply across borders. Pescod said that voluntary organisations in Chile, Columbia, Mexico, Nicaragua and Uruguay have only 8,517 books in alternative formats between them. However, Argentina has 63,000 books and Spain 102,000. All these countries speak Spanish. . Spain and Argentina will not share their libraries with their Latin American colleagues, though, for fear of breaking copyright laws, he said. The proposed treaty would also allow for the circumvention of digital rights management (DRM) where necessary to render a work accessible. Some books are published in a digital format that is not compatible with the assistive technologies used by disabled people. Lobbying for legislative change in the UK, the RNIB noted recently that DRM schemes "can react to assistive technology as if it were an illicit operation." It also said that "while e-book readers may have the facility to reproduce synthetic speech, the rights holder can apply a level of security which prevents this from working." The WBU treaty would allow a company to buy an e-book, hack the DRM and redistribute a DRM-free version of the work, provided copies are supplied exclusively for disabled customers. Pescod said that main objective of RNIB and the WBU for the week was to have the treaty formally proposed within the WIPO committee. Their second objective was to have it accepted as a viable proposal. "These were met," he said. "Brazil, Ecuador and Paraguay tabled the treaty as a proposal." That put the treaty before WIPO's Standing Committee on Copyright and Related Rights. It was strongly supported by delegates representing South American, African and Asian countries. "India and China were particularly supportive," said Pescod. Wealthier countries, it seems, were less enthusiastic. "Many publishers and rights holders and some states say we need a 'soft' solution," said Pescod. "RNIB should work with rights holders and others to resolve this, they say." Pescod said these groups want a 'stakeholder platform' to discuss the sharing of files, but not a treaty. "We're more than happy to speak," he said. "But where we part company is that the stakeholder platform is looking at one set of solutions only." It would address some technical challenges, he said; but it would not address other issues, including the production of unprofitable Braille works, or the extra work needed to describe images. "We're insisting that you need to work with rights holders - and we'll continue to do that - but we still need a treaty which would do three things: encourage national copyright exceptions for disabled people in all countries; allow transfer of accessible books in all countries; and allow tightening of rules on DRM systems that can block accessibility." "No country opposed the proposal [for a treaty] outright," said Pescod. "Those who wanted to suggest that they weren't happy with it used more coded language, like saying discussions were 'premature' or that they wanted to take it back home and discuss it [at a national level]." The published conclusions of the committee include the unattributed objection "that deliberations regarding any instrument would be premature." "Those attacking this [treaty] fear it is going to undermine copyright law," he said. "We disagree completely. Ensuring access for a bunch of people who the market was not selling to in the first place doesn't undermine copyright law." "This whole idea that it's 'premature' is bizarre," he said. "A WIPO and UNESCO working group looked at this in 1982. If that's premature, at what point does it become mature and ready to go?" Pescod said that support for the stakeholder platform instead of a treaty is coming only from those who are not disabled. "They're not blind and they know better? I would question that," he said. The UK was represented in two capacities: as a member of the European Union and as a member of the so-called 'Group B' countries, a WIPO term that refers to 17 EU member states, the US, Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, Norway, Switzerland and the Vatican. Neither the EU nor Group B representatives supported the proposal. "Both are sceptical," said Pescod. According to another meeting attendee, James Love of Knowledge Ecology International, a group that promotes access to knowledge, the opposition from the US and other high-income countries "is due to intense lobbying from a large group of publishers that oppose a 'paradigm shift', where treaties would protect consumer interests, rather than expand rights for copyright owners." Ville Oksanen, a member of European digital rights group EDRi said Group B and the EU "did their best to derail the process of getting the treaty under serious consideration." He described the given reasons as "rather perplexing" and described them as excuses designed to avoid being seen as opposing help for disabled people. "It remains to be seen how sceptical they will be next time," said Pescod. "At the end of the day, though, we are happy with the way things went." On Friday night the WIPO copyright committee reached agreement to discuss the treaty at its next meeting in November, in spite of the objections. In the meantime, the committee's conclusions note that "Member States will continue to consult on these issues at national level and report on the activities and views on possible solutions." James Love is confident that the treaty will make progress. "Group B came in the May [copyright committee] meeting to block any agreement to discuss a treaty," he told OUT-LAW. "We'll be back in November, discussing a treaty. The members of Group B will not be able to consistently avoid dealing with the treaty proposal. They will have to say yes or no in terms of moving this forward, and to explain why." "The core issue will be, what will it take to liberalize the cross-border movement of accessible works created under copyright limitations and exceptions?" said Love. "Given how harsh the access reality is for people who are blind or have other reading disabilities, Group B cannot long avoid addressing this topic. There will be more and more data, and fewer and fewer chances to claim strategic ignorance." < http://www.out-law.com/page-10059 Sarah Alawami msn: chellist at hotmail.com website: http://www.marrie.org twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 From serenacucco at verizon.net Sun Jun 7 20:32:06 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 16:32:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users SurvivesResistance From References: <8AF85696854F43A7BF007F09D2FD9D90@sacomputer> Message-ID: <002901c9e7af$0692b220$0401a8c0@Serene> Great! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 3:42 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users SurvivesResistance From > Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From > the EU and US > Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU > resistance > Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU > resistance > OUT-LAW News, 03/06/2009 > A proposed treaty that would change copyright laws to allow the supply of > books across borders for the benefit of blind people has survived > resistance > from the US, UK, France, Germany and other countries. > A committee of the World Intellectual Property Organisation agreed on > Friday > "to continue without delay" its work on "facilitating the access of > blind, > visually-impaired and other reading-disabled persons to > copyright-protected > works." > At the heart of this work is a treaty proposed by the charitable > organisation World Blind Union (WBU) and written with the help of the > UK's > Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) . > RNIB campaign manager Dan Pescod attended the five-day meeting in Geneva. > Pescod told OUT-LAW today that the UK and the US were among a group of > countries that did not support the treaty and preferred 'soft options', > though they stopped short of formally opposing it. > Around 95% of books are never published in any format other than standard > print, according to the WBU. But visually impaired people need books in > other formats, such as large print, Braille and audio. People with other > disabilities, such as cognitive impairments, can also find themselves > 'print > disabled'. > "Imagine if you walked into a bookshop or library, and were told that you > were only allowed to choose from five percent of the books on the shelf," > said WBU president Dr William Rowland in a speech last year. "What would > such a limited choice do to your education, to your leisure reading > opportunities?" > The WBU, RNIB and others have prepared a draft treaty that would relax > copyright restrictions to allow the creation and supply of accessible > books > without the need for prior permission from the copyright owner. The > treaty > requires this generally to be done on a non-profit basis. > In some countries, it is already legal to create accessible books without > permission. It was made legal in the UK by the Copyright (Visually > Impaired > Persons) Act, passed in 2002. But that law is limited in scope. The > rights > are limited to visually-impaired persons - so while a person with > dyslexia > might benefit from a large-print book, or an electronic book which can be > played using text-to-speech conversion software, the law does not > facilitate > that person. > Also, the UK law, like equivalent laws in other countries, does not allow > the supply of a digital book to a customer overseas. > The WBU treaty, if signed and ratified in its present form, would lift > these > restrictions. It seeks to protect all 'reading disabled' persons and it > allows the supply across borders of accessible works, as a Braille hard > copy > or as an e-book. At present, a tiny fraction of books that are available > in > accessible formats can be supplied across borders because their export > requires the agreement of rights holders. > Pescod said publishers have until recently seen little money to be made > from > converting books into accessible formats, meaning that the work is > normally > done by voluntary organisations like RNIB. > "If we make an accessible version of a book in the UK and want to send > that > to another English-speaking country where they don't have the resources > to > make books accessible, we should be able to do that," he said. "But the > copyright law as it stands doesn't allow the transfer of that accessible > info. The exceptions in place in national legislations stop at the > border." > The preamble to the treaty notes that "90 percent of visually-impaired > persons live in countries of low or moderate incomes." These countries > tend > to have the most limited ranges of accessible works, hence the need for a > right to supply across borders. > Pescod said that voluntary organisations in Chile, Columbia, Mexico, > Nicaragua and Uruguay have only 8,517 books in alternative formats > between > them. However, Argentina has 63,000 books and Spain 102,000. All these > countries speak Spanish. . Spain and Argentina will not share their > libraries with their Latin American colleagues, though, for fear of > breaking > copyright laws, he said. > The proposed treaty would also allow for the circumvention of digital > rights > management (DRM) where necessary to render a work accessible. Some books > are > published in a digital format that is not compatible with the assistive > technologies used by disabled people. > Lobbying for legislative change in the UK, the RNIB noted recently that > DRM > schemes "can react to assistive technology as if it were an illicit > operation." It also said that "while e-book readers may have the facility > to > reproduce synthetic speech, the rights holder can apply a level of > security > which prevents this from working." > The WBU treaty would allow a company to buy an e-book, hack the DRM and > redistribute a DRM-free version of the work, provided copies are supplied > exclusively for disabled customers. > Pescod said that main objective of RNIB and the WBU for the week was to > have > the treaty formally proposed within the WIPO committee. Their second > objective was to have it accepted as a viable proposal. "These were met," > he > said. "Brazil, Ecuador and Paraguay tabled the treaty as a proposal." > That put the treaty before WIPO's Standing Committee on Copyright and > Related Rights. It was strongly supported by delegates representing South > American, African and Asian countries. "India and China were particularly > supportive," said Pescod. Wealthier countries, it seems, were less > enthusiastic. > "Many publishers and rights holders and some states say we need a 'soft' > solution," said Pescod. "RNIB should work with rights holders and others > to > resolve this, they say." > Pescod said these groups want a 'stakeholder platform' to discuss the > sharing of files, but not a treaty. "We're more than happy to speak," he > said. "But where we part company is that the stakeholder platform is > looking > at one set of solutions only." It would address some technical > challenges, > he said; but it would not address other issues, including the production > of > unprofitable Braille works, or the extra work needed to describe images. > "We're insisting that you need to work with rights holders - and we'll > continue to do that - but we still need a treaty which would do three > things: encourage national copyright exceptions for disabled people in > all > countries; allow transfer of accessible books in all countries; and allow > tightening of rules on DRM systems that can block accessibility." > "No country opposed the proposal [for a treaty] outright," said Pescod. > "Those who wanted to suggest that they weren't happy with it used more > coded > language, like saying discussions were 'premature' or that they wanted to > take it back home and discuss it [at a national level]." > The published conclusions of the committee include the unattributed > objection "that deliberations regarding any instrument would be > premature." > "Those attacking this [treaty] fear it is going to undermine copyright > law," > he said. "We disagree completely. Ensuring access for a bunch of people > who > the market was not selling to in the first place doesn't undermine > copyright > law." > "This whole idea that it's 'premature' is bizarre," he said. "A WIPO and > UNESCO working group looked at this in 1982. If that's premature, at what > point does it become mature and ready to go?" > Pescod said that support for the stakeholder platform instead of a treaty > is > coming only from those who are not disabled. "They're not blind and they > know better? I would question that," he said. > The UK was represented in two capacities: as a member of the European > Union > and as a member of the so-called 'Group B' countries, a WIPO term that > refers to 17 EU member states, the US, Australia, Canada, Japan, New > Zealand, Norway, Switzerland and the Vatican. Neither the EU nor Group B > representatives supported the proposal. "Both are sceptical," said > Pescod. > According to another meeting attendee, James Love of Knowledge Ecology > International, a group that promotes access to knowledge, the opposition > from the US and other high-income countries "is due to intense lobbying > from > a large group of publishers that oppose a 'paradigm shift', where > treaties > would protect consumer interests, rather than expand rights for copyright > owners." > Ville Oksanen, a member of European digital rights group EDRi said Group > B > and the EU "did their best to derail the process of getting the treaty > under > serious consideration." He described the given reasons as "rather > perplexing" and described them as excuses designed to avoid being seen as > opposing help for disabled people. > "It remains to be seen how sceptical they will be next time," said > Pescod. > "At the end of the day, though, we are happy with the way things went." > On Friday night the WIPO copyright committee reached agreement to discuss > the treaty at its next meeting in November, in spite of the objections. > In > the meantime, the committee's conclusions note that "Member States will > continue to consult on these issues at national level and report on the > activities and views on possible solutions." > James Love is confident that the treaty will make progress. > "Group B came in the May [copyright committee] meeting to block any > agreement to discuss a treaty," he told OUT-LAW. "We'll be back in > November, > discussing a treaty. The members of Group B will not be able to > consistently > avoid dealing with the treaty proposal. They will have to say yes or no > in > terms of moving this forward, and to explain why." > "The core issue will be, what will it take to liberalize the cross-border > movement of accessible works created under copyright limitations and > exceptions?" said Love. "Given how harsh the access reality is for people > who are blind or have other reading disabilities, Group B cannot long > avoid > addressing this topic. There will be more and more data, and fewer and > fewer > chances to claim strategic ignorance." < > http://www.out-law.com/page-10059 > > > Sarah Alawami > msn: chellist at hotmail.com > website: http://www.marrie.org > twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From rmlambert1987 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 20:52:01 2009 From: rmlambert1987 at yahoo.com (Rob Lambert) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From Message-ID: <379980.90922.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Thanks for posting this. :) This is nice :) So, essentailly, we can get books from accross the pond now, as well as being able to not worry so much about needing a publisher's permission. I think this could speed up textbook reproduction as well. --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Sarah Alawami wrote: From: Sarah Alawami Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 12:42 PM   Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From   the EU and US   Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU   resistance   Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU   resistance   OUT-LAW News, 03/06/2009   A proposed treaty that would change copyright laws to allow the supply of   books across borders for the benefit of blind people has survived   resistance   from the US, UK, France, Germany and other countries.   A committee of the World Intellectual Property Organisation agreed on   Friday   "to continue without delay" its work on "facilitating the access of blind,   visually-impaired and other reading-disabled persons to   copyright-protected   works."   At the heart of this work is a treaty proposed by the charitable   organisation World Blind Union (WBU) and written with the help of the UK's   Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) .   RNIB campaign manager Dan Pescod attended the five-day meeting in Geneva.   Pescod told OUT-LAW today that the UK and the US were among a group of   countries that did not support the treaty and preferred 'soft options',   though they stopped short of formally opposing it.   Around 95% of books are never published in any format other than standard   print, according to the WBU. But visually impaired people need books in   other formats, such as large print, Braille and audio. People with other   disabilities, such as cognitive impairments, can also find themselves   'print   disabled'.   "Imagine if you walked into a bookshop or library, and were told that you   were only allowed to choose from five percent of the books on the shelf,"   said WBU president Dr William Rowland in a speech last year. "What would   such a limited choice do to your education, to your leisure reading   opportunities?"   The WBU, RNIB and others have prepared a draft treaty that would relax   copyright restrictions to allow the creation and supply of accessible   books   without the need for prior permission from the copyright owner. The treaty   requires this generally to be done on a non-profit basis.   In some countries, it is already legal to create accessible books without   permission. It was made legal in the UK by the Copyright (Visually   Impaired   Persons) Act, passed in 2002. But that law is limited in scope. The rights   are limited to visually-impaired persons - so while a person with dyslexia   might benefit from a large-print book, or an electronic book which can be   played using text-to-speech conversion software, the law does not   facilitate   that person.   Also, the UK law, like equivalent laws in other countries, does not allow   the supply of a digital book to a customer overseas.   The WBU treaty, if signed and ratified in its present form, would lift   these   restrictions. It seeks to protect all 'reading disabled' persons and it   allows the supply across borders of accessible works, as a Braille hard   copy   or as an e-book. At present, a tiny fraction of books that are available   in   accessible formats can be supplied across borders because their export   requires the agreement of rights holders.   Pescod said publishers have until recently seen little money to be made   from   converting books into accessible formats, meaning that the work is   normally   done by voluntary organisations like RNIB.   "If we make an accessible version of a book in the UK and want to send   that   to another English-speaking country where they don't have the resources to   make books accessible, we should be able to do that," he said. "But the   copyright law as it stands doesn't allow the transfer of that accessible   info. The exceptions in place in national legislations stop at the   border."   The preamble to the treaty notes that "90 percent of visually-impaired   persons live in countries of low or moderate incomes." These countries   tend   to have the most limited ranges of accessible works, hence the need for a   right to supply across borders.   Pescod said that voluntary organisations in Chile, Columbia, Mexico,   Nicaragua and Uruguay have only 8,517 books in alternative formats between   them. However, Argentina has 63,000 books and Spain 102,000. All these   countries speak Spanish. . Spain and Argentina will not share their   libraries with their Latin American colleagues, though, for fear of   breaking   copyright laws, he said.   The proposed treaty would also allow for the circumvention of digital   rights   management (DRM) where necessary to render a work accessible. Some books   are   published in a digital format that is not compatible with the assistive   technologies used by disabled people.   Lobbying for legislative change in the UK, the RNIB noted recently that   DRM   schemes "can react to assistive technology as if it were an illicit   operation." It also said that "while e-book readers may have the facility   to   reproduce synthetic speech, the rights holder can apply a level of   security   which prevents this from working."   The WBU treaty would allow a company to buy an e-book, hack the DRM and   redistribute a DRM-free version of the work, provided copies are supplied   exclusively for disabled customers.   Pescod said that main objective of RNIB and the WBU for the week was to   have   the treaty formally proposed within the WIPO committee. Their second   objective was to have it accepted as a viable proposal. "These were met,"   he   said. "Brazil, Ecuador and Paraguay tabled the treaty as a proposal."   That put the treaty before WIPO's Standing Committee on Copyright and   Related Rights. It was strongly supported by delegates representing South   American, African and Asian countries. "India and China were particularly   supportive," said Pescod. Wealthier countries, it seems, were less   enthusiastic.   "Many publishers and rights holders and some states say we need a 'soft'   solution," said Pescod. "RNIB should work with rights holders and others   to   resolve this, they say."   Pescod said these groups want a 'stakeholder platform' to discuss the   sharing of files, but not a treaty. "We're more than happy to speak," he   said. "But where we part company is that the stakeholder platform is   looking   at one set of solutions only." It would address some technical challenges,   he said; but it would not address other issues, including the production   of   unprofitable Braille works, or the extra work needed to describe images.   "We're insisting that you need to work with rights holders - and we'll   continue to do that - but we still need a treaty which would do three   things: encourage national copyright exceptions for disabled people in all   countries; allow transfer of accessible books in all countries; and allow   tightening of rules on DRM systems that can block accessibility."   "No country opposed the proposal [for a treaty] outright," said Pescod.   "Those who wanted to suggest that they weren't happy with it used more   coded   language, like saying discussions were 'premature' or that they wanted to   take it back home and discuss it [at a national level]."   The published conclusions of the committee include the unattributed   objection "that deliberations regarding any instrument would be   premature."   "Those attacking this [treaty] fear it is going to undermine copyright   law,"   he said. "We disagree completely. Ensuring access for a bunch of people   who   the market was not selling to in the first place doesn't undermine   copyright   law."   "This whole idea that it's 'premature' is bizarre," he said. "A WIPO and   UNESCO working group looked at this in 1982. If that's premature, at what   point does it become mature and ready to go?"   Pescod said that support for the stakeholder platform instead of a treaty   is   coming only from those who are not disabled. "They're not blind and they   know better? I would question that," he said.   The UK was represented in two capacities: as a member of the European   Union   and as a member of the so-called 'Group B' countries, a WIPO term that   refers to 17 EU member states, the US, Australia, Canada, Japan, New   Zealand, Norway, Switzerland and the Vatican. Neither the EU nor Group B   representatives supported the proposal. "Both are sceptical," said Pescod.   According to another meeting attendee, James Love of Knowledge Ecology   International, a group that promotes access to knowledge, the opposition   from the US and other high-income countries "is due to intense lobbying   from   a large group of publishers that oppose a 'paradigm shift', where treaties   would protect consumer interests, rather than expand rights for copyright   owners."   Ville Oksanen, a member of European digital rights group EDRi said Group B   and the EU "did their best to derail the process of getting the treaty   under   serious consideration." He described the given reasons as "rather   perplexing" and described them as excuses designed to avoid being seen as   opposing help for disabled people.   "It remains to be seen how sceptical they will be next time," said Pescod.   "At the end of the day, though, we are happy with the way things went."   On Friday night the WIPO copyright committee reached agreement to discuss   the treaty at its next meeting in November, in spite of the objections. In   the meantime, the committee's conclusions note that "Member States will   continue to consult on these issues at national level and report on the   activities and views on possible solutions."   James Love is confident that the treaty will make progress.   "Group B came in the May [copyright committee] meeting to block any   agreement to discuss a treaty," he told OUT-LAW. "We'll be back in   November,   discussing a treaty. The members of Group B will not be able to   consistently   avoid dealing with the treaty proposal. They will have to say yes or no in   terms of moving this forward, and to explain why."   "The core issue will be, what will it take to liberalize the cross-border   movement of accessible works created under copyright limitations and   exceptions?" said Love. "Given how harsh the access reality is for people   who are blind or have other reading disabilities, Group B cannot long   avoid   addressing this topic. There will be more and more data, and fewer and   fewer   chances to claim strategic ignorance." <   http://www.out-law.com/page-10059 Sarah Alawami msn: chellist at hotmail.com website: http://www.marrie.org twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rmlambert1987%40yahoo.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Sun Jun 7 21:06:37 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 17:06:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] mobile facebook Message-ID: <003201c9e7b3$d92bd320$0401a8c0@Serene> Hey guys To whoever on this list has recommended Mobile Facebook cuz it's much more accessible with Jaws, thanks! I just tried it for the first time today and it's really awesome! Serena From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 22:51:20 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:51:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users SurvivesResistance From In-Reply-To: <002901c9e7af$0692b220$0401a8c0@Serene> References: <8AF85696854F43A7BF007F09D2FD9D90@sacomputer> <002901c9e7af$0692b220$0401a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906071551n59be3451u2641fb653d4e8950@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for posting this to the list. The treaty hasn't been signed, but at least it hasn't been voted down. I think this is a good topic for all of us to get behind. Our legislators and the president need to understand that everyone has the right to read regardless of their reading ability. Copywrite holders are just being greedy as usual. Alena -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From marrie12 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 22:57:01 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:57:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled UsersSurvives Resistance From In-Reply-To: <379980.90922.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <379980.90922.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7D32275CCFE24A3FA5E31D2FE0E6BBE3@sacomputer> Well not as of yet. A few countries are still fighting this. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Lambert Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled UsersSurvives Resistance From Thanks for posting this. :) This is nice :) So, essentailly, we can get books from accross the pond now, as well as being able to not worry so much about needing a publisher's permission. I think this could speed up textbook reproduction as well. --- On Sun, 6/7/09, Sarah Alawami wrote: From: Sarah Alawami Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009, 12:42 PM   Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users Survives Resistance From   the EU and US   Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU   resistance   Copyright treaty backing e-books for disabled readers survives US and EU   resistance   OUT-LAW News, 03/06/2009   A proposed treaty that would change copyright laws to allow the supply of   books across borders for the benefit of blind people has survived   resistance   from the US, UK, France, Germany and other countries.   A committee of the World Intellectual Property Organisation agreed on   Friday   "to continue without delay" its work on "facilitating the access of blind,   visually-impaired and other reading-disabled persons to   copyright-protected   works."   At the heart of this work is a treaty proposed by the charitable   organisation World Blind Union (WBU) and written with the help of the UK's   Royal National Institute of Blind People (RNIB) .   RNIB campaign manager Dan Pescod attended the five-day meeting in Geneva.   Pescod told OUT-LAW today that the UK and the US were among a group of   countries that did not support the treaty and preferred 'soft options',   though they stopped short of formally opposing it.   Around 95% of books are never published in any format other than standard   print, according to the WBU. But visually impaired people need books in   other formats, such as large print, Braille and audio. People with other   disabilities, such as cognitive impairments, can also find themselves   'print   disabled'.   "Imagine if you walked into a bookshop or library, and were told that you   were only allowed to choose from five percent of the books on the shelf,"   said WBU president Dr William Rowland in a speech last year. "What would   such a limited choice do to your education, to your leisure reading   opportunities?"   The WBU, RNIB and others have prepared a draft treaty that would relax   copyright restrictions to allow the creation and supply of accessible   books   without the need for prior permission from the copyright owner. The treaty   requires this generally to be done on a non-profit basis.   In some countries, it is already legal to create accessible books without   permission. It was made legal in the UK by the Copyright (Visually   Impaired   Persons) Act, passed in 2002. But that law is limited in scope. The rights   are limited to visually-impaired persons - so while a person with dyslexia   might benefit from a large-print book, or an electronic book which can be   played using text-to-speech conversion software, the law does not   facilitate   that person.   Also, the UK law, like equivalent laws in other countries, does not allow   the supply of a digital book to a customer overseas.   The WBU treaty, if signed and ratified in its present form, would lift   these   restrictions. It seeks to protect all 'reading disabled' persons and it   allows the supply across borders of accessible works, as a Braille hard   copy   or as an e-book. At present, a tiny fraction of books that are available   in   accessible formats can be supplied across borders because their export   requires the agreement of rights holders.   Pescod said publishers have until recently seen little money to be made   from   converting books into accessible formats, meaning that the work is   normally   done by voluntary organisations like RNIB.   "If we make an accessible version of a book in the UK and want to send   that   to another English-speaking country where they don't have the resources to   make books accessible, we should be able to do that," he said. "But the   copyright law as it stands doesn't allow the transfer of that accessible   info. The exceptions in place in national legislations stop at the   border."   The preamble to the treaty notes that "90 percent of visually-impaired   persons live in countries of low or moderate incomes." These countries   tend   to have the most limited ranges of accessible works, hence the need for a   right to supply across borders.   Pescod said that voluntary organisations in Chile, Columbia, Mexico,   Nicaragua and Uruguay have only 8,517 books in alternative formats between   them. However, Argentina has 63,000 books and Spain 102,000. All these   countries speak Spanish. . Spain and Argentina will not share their   libraries with their Latin American colleagues, though, for fear of   breaking   copyright laws, he said.   The proposed treaty would also allow for the circumvention of digital   rights   management (DRM) where necessary to render a work accessible. Some books   are   published in a digital format that is not compatible with the assistive   technologies used by disabled people.   Lobbying for legislative change in the UK, the RNIB noted recently that   DRM   schemes "can react to assistive technology as if it were an illicit   operation." It also said that "while e-book readers may have the facility   to   reproduce synthetic speech, the rights holder can apply a level of   security   which prevents this from working."   The WBU treaty would allow a company to buy an e-book, hack the DRM and   redistribute a DRM-free version of the work, provided copies are supplied   exclusively for disabled customers.   Pescod said that main objective of RNIB and the WBU for the week was to   have   the treaty formally proposed within the WIPO committee. Their second   objective was to have it accepted as a viable proposal. "These were met,"   he   said. "Brazil, Ecuador and Paraguay tabled the treaty as a proposal."   That put the treaty before WIPO's Standing Committee on Copyright and   Related Rights. It was strongly supported by delegates representing South   American, African and Asian countries. "India and China were particularly   supportive," said Pescod. Wealthier countries, it seems, were less   enthusiastic.   "Many publishers and rights holders and some states say we need a 'soft'   solution," said Pescod. "RNIB should work with rights holders and others   to   resolve this, they say."   Pescod said these groups want a 'stakeholder platform' to discuss the   sharing of files, but not a treaty. "We're more than happy to speak," he   said. "But where we part company is that the stakeholder platform is   looking   at one set of solutions only." It would address some technical challenges,   he said; but it would not address other issues, including the production   of   unprofitable Braille works, or the extra work needed to describe images.   "We're insisting that you need to work with rights holders - and we'll   continue to do that - but we still need a treaty which would do three   things: encourage national copyright exceptions for disabled people in all   countries; allow transfer of accessible books in all countries; and allow   tightening of rules on DRM systems that can block accessibility."   "No country opposed the proposal [for a treaty] outright," said Pescod.   "Those who wanted to suggest that they weren't happy with it used more   coded   language, like saying discussions were 'premature' or that they wanted to   take it back home and discuss it [at a national level]."   The published conclusions of the committee include the unattributed   objection "that deliberations regarding any instrument would be   premature."   "Those attacking this [treaty] fear it is going to undermine copyright   law,"   he said. "We disagree completely. Ensuring access for a bunch of people   who   the market was not selling to in the first place doesn't undermine   copyright   law."   "This whole idea that it's 'premature' is bizarre," he said. "A WIPO and   UNESCO working group looked at this in 1982. If that's premature, at what   point does it become mature and ready to go?"   Pescod said that support for the stakeholder platform instead of a treaty   is   coming only from those who are not disabled. "They're not blind and they   know better? I would question that," he said.   The UK was represented in two capacities: as a member of the European   Union   and as a member of the so-called 'Group B' countries, a WIPO term that   refers to 17 EU member states, the US, Australia, Canada, Japan, New   Zealand, Norway, Switzerland and the Vatican. Neither the EU nor Group B   representatives supported the proposal. "Both are sceptical," said Pescod.   According to another meeting attendee, James Love of Knowledge Ecology   International, a group that promotes access to knowledge, the opposition   from the US and other high-income countries "is due to intense lobbying   from   a large group of publishers that oppose a 'paradigm shift', where treaties   would protect consumer interests, rather than expand rights for copyright   owners."   Ville Oksanen, a member of European digital rights group EDRi said Group B   and the EU "did their best to derail the process of getting the treaty   under   serious consideration." He described the given reasons as "rather   perplexing" and described them as excuses designed to avoid being seen as   opposing help for disabled people.   "It remains to be seen how sceptical they will be next time," said Pescod.   "At the end of the day, though, we are happy with the way things went."   On Friday night the WIPO copyright committee reached agreement to discuss   the treaty at its next meeting in November, in spite of the objections. In   the meantime, the committee's conclusions note that "Member States will   continue to consult on these issues at national level and report on the   activities and views on possible solutions."   James Love is confident that the treaty will make progress.   "Group B came in the May [copyright committee] meeting to block any   agreement to discuss a treaty," he told OUT-LAW. "We'll be back in   November,   discussing a treaty. The members of Group B will not be able to   consistently   avoid dealing with the treaty proposal. They will have to say yes or no in   terms of moving this forward, and to explain why."   "The core issue will be, what will it take to liberalize the cross-border   movement of accessible works created under copyright limitations and   exceptions?" said Love. "Given how harsh the access reality is for people   who are blind or have other reading disabilities, Group B cannot long   avoid   addressing this topic. There will be more and more data, and fewer and   fewer   chances to claim strategic ignorance." <   http://www.out-law.com/page-10059 Sarah Alawami msn: chellist at hotmail.com website: http://www.marrie.org twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rmlambert1987%40yaho o.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 22:57:01 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:57:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled UsersSurvivesResistance From In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906071551n59be3451u2641fb653d4e8950@mail.gmail.com> References: <8AF85696854F43A7BF007F09D2FD9D90@sacomputer><002901c9e7af$0692b220$0401a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906071551n59be3451u2641fb653d4e8950@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Is there a way we can bring this up at the convention? I won't be there for the whole time so not sure if I can help out in any way. I am no elequent speaker either. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of alena roberts Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 3:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled UsersSurvivesResistance From Thanks for posting this to the list. The treaty hasn't been signed, but at least it hasn't been voted down. I think this is a good topic for all of us to get behind. Our legislators and the president need to understand that everyone has the right to read regardless of their reading ability. Copywrite holders are just being greedy as usual. Alena -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 22:59:17 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:59:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Action Plan, Part 4 In-Reply-To: <20090606230632.GE5234@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <37D4F3F6879145719F3CAA5EA0CC5B11@Rufus> <20090605025808.GJ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090606230632.GE5234@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090607225917.GA12229@yumi.bluecherry.net> Hey all, I got a call from Ryan Strunk this morning. He explained what he meant by his comment. I understand and agree with his explanation, though I'm not able to adequately articulate his position now. (My excuse is that it is finals week for us quarter-based students. As an aside to high school students: If you're considering a college that uses the quarter system, reconsider for the sake of sanity.) We discussed some possibilities for addressing wider inclusion of both younger and older students and partnership with parent divisions. I also discussed with him an idea I had, but won't share now both for the above reason and because I haven't talked to my own board yet. It was a good call, and Ryan's input has been invaluable in things I will begin working on over the next few weeks. The one thing that I feel it is important to share now is that my interpretation of Ryan's comment was not as he intended it. Moreover since he did not see my reply, he had no idea that I took it personally, which allowed the misunderstanding to persist. My apologies for creating much ado over what ultimately was a small thing. Joseph On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 04:06:32PM -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Since about three people have told me there are other factors Ryan may > not have wanted to drag me into, I'll chalk up his comment in response to > my question as possibly the best answer he could think of to avoid doing > so. I am certain he had no idea something he offered dismissively would > be taken personally. > > With that perspective, I no longer do. It seems important to me, > though, to set the record straight. I was apparently wrong about this. > > I continue to believe that NABS should work to reach out to both younger > and older students to advance the goals of this organization and of the > NFB as a whole. > > Joseph > > > On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 07:58:08PM -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Joe, >> >> I still believe that you are the only person I have seen on this list >> who is capable of realizing this plan. Yet I do not believe your >> proposal is likely to be implemented in whole or even in significant >> part at this time. You say that these ideas are less ambitious than >> those the earliest Federationists took upon themselves, and you are >> right. That said, however, NABS appears to presently have a much >> narrower focus in terms of what it wants to do, and for whom. >> >> I tried to drum up some support to convince you to run for the NABS >> presidency, as you already know. I stopped when I read this comment >> written by Ryan Strunk: "...he's too old. The division is made up of >> 18 to 25 year olds. He's slipping outside of that range..." >> >> I have to tell you that I have never felt less welcome by any NFB >> affiliate than when I read those comments by a former president of >> NABS—the guy who ran this organization during my first opportunity to >> meet with students involved in this organization. I was more than a >> little hurt to read that comment. >> >> I have been one of those busting my butt here in Oregon to establish >> the Oregon NABS affiliate while battling harsh and vindictive >> discrimination in my university and a ruthless effort to close the >> Oregon School for the Blind. When the term ends next week, the >> discrimination will end with it. With "normal" academic demands, >> there's far more I believe I can do, and far more that I want to do. >> >> Until our NABS leadership begins to look to expand the organization >> beyond the narrow scope of 18-25 year olds and its present fear of >> actual disagreement on any issue of substance, NABS will be little more >> than a social club. Without a wider demographic target and the >> occasional willingness to take on a difficult or controversial topic, >> NABS cannot be what it should be: A powerful student organization that >> speaks for the blind student with a unified voice that will not be >> ignored. >> >> Now, one of my personality traits is that I am very results oriented. >> This is both a strength and a limitation; I will leave it to the reader >> to determine which it is today: I have no time for a social club, but I >> will make time for the powerful student association. >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 05:02:06PM -0400, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> 1. The Student Slate >>> >>> In my opinion, no job in the NABS board is more frustrating than the >>> editorship of the Student Slate. Thankfully, I have never had to wear the >>> hat of editor for the newsletter, but I have in some way assisted with its >>> revision and compilation for the past four years. You will of course notice >>> that in the past four years the publication of the newsletter has not been >>> consistent, and while it may be all too easy to blame the editor, perhaps >>> even the board as a whole, for not doing their job, I assure you the blame >>> is completely your own for not writing an article when articles have been >>> requested. >>> >>> It's ironic really. On the NABS-L list alone you might come across twenty >>> posts from a single individual telling you the same thing twenty different >>> times in the course of a single day. Some people wonder where they find the >>> time to post so much. I wonder why these people haven't written articles? >>> This is not a rhetorical question. If the shoe fits, talk to Jennifer >>> Kennedy about how to submit something for publication. Unless things have >>> changed, it was my understanding she wanted to put out another issue prior >>> to convention. >>> >>> I offer two alternatives: >>> >>> A. Impose a moratorium on the Student Slate >>> >>> Every national organization should have a regular publication, but if this >>> cannot be done, put it to sleep temporarily. Instead, come out with a >>> monthly briefing. ... I know, you're thinking that if we can't get our act >>> together on a publication that is supposed to be published four times a >>> year, how in hell are we going to push one out once a month? People assume >>> a publication has to be long and brimming with information. It does not >>> have to be written that way. A simple update on the state of the division >>> would suffice. A word from the president letting the membership know what >>> the board has been doing and what it is planning is sufficient. Think of it >>> as a condensed version of the Presidential Releases Dr. Maurer puts out for >>> the organization at large. Even a well-written, well-organized one-pager >>> would keep the masses happy, because it lets them know that their board is >>> doing something beneficial. Later, when the division picks up steam and the >>> Student Slate can be revived, feel free to bring it back. >>> >>> B. Turn the Student Slate into a magazine format >>> >>> If the idea of putting the Student Slate is too much of a break from >>> tradition, consider changing the overall format of the publication. Right >>> now we have five or six different stories of people doing great things in >>> their lives. I think this is fine, but after a while we must surely realize >>> that there are only so many ways to be an awesome blind person. As much as >>> I enjoyed the Kernel book series, I was not all that sad to see it end, >>> because many of the stories are of the type of material that can be found in >>> the Braille Monitor. >>> >>> So, consider beginning special columns. You can have an interview column >>> that focuses on the accomplishments of a board member or another leader in >>> the NFB, or consider going out and interviewing someone who is not in the >>> organization but who is still doing something great with themselves. I >>> wouldn't mind reading an interview from Ginny Owens or David Paterson. Now >>> you're probably thinking it would be too hard to interview those people. >>> Begin with their publicist, chief of staff, publisher, depending on the >>> nature of the person's profession. You could have a column on emerging >>> technology. You could have another column on fashion sense and socializing. >>> Another column could focus on following our legislative progress. Dear >>> Abby? Remember, this is a student publication. The idea is not without >>> merit, especially if the inquiries are of the variety related to blindness >>> that some people are too shy to ask. >>> >>> Whether you go with the first suggestion or the second, you need not feel as >>> though you yourself have to be generating all the news. Sometimes >>> newsletters focus completely on the noise other people are creating, but the >>> news is validated because it is coming from you. >>> >>> If partnerships are established, you can elevate your publication by >>> incorporating the developments of those organizations. Using last >>> installment's examples, you could reprint an article from Sports and >>> Recreation's Competition Corner. You could help promote an event for the >>> parents. In either case, you can expect that the gesture will be >>> reciprocated, and any opportunity to expand your scope lends you the perfect >>> opportunity to further highlight the funders that will begin to invest in >>> your cause with all the popularity you slowly begin to accumulate. >>> >>> 2. Awards >>> >>> Hard work should be recognized. Just as the state affiliate with the >>> greatest number of registered convention participants is given a banner, the >>> state student division with the greatest number of registered students >>> should receive a banner or certificate or trophy or some other type of >>> incentive. Maybe a contest should be arranged to find the best looking >>> banner? In either case, this begins to set up a friendly competition among >>> the state divisions to recruit and bring the most number of members they can >>> to convention. Alternatively, recognize state divisions for simply doing a >>> good job regardless of the number of people they bring to the national >>> convention. Some states may not have the numbers but do wonderful things to >>> keep things happening in their states. >>> >>> I like the idea of the Blind Bargains web site recognizing companies for >>> their innovative solutions. Why could NABS not run a similar voting session >>> to recognize an exceptional DSS office, organization or company doing great >>> things on behalf of the blind population, particularly students? Part of >>> making a name for your organization comes with building your own sense of >>> prestige. You represent the greatest number of blind students in the >>> country. Now take this claim and legitimize your position by handing out >>> certificates to groups deserving of your formal recognition. If you are >>> successful at creating a good image for your activities, other people will >>> buy into your elevated position and will want to be associated with what you >>> have to offer. >>> >>> And, where is the harm in recognizing rising stars amongst the student >>> ranks? Some of you are really out there busting your butts, making a >>> difference and generally making the rest of us look good. We should know >>> who you are, what you're doing and how we can learn from your success. A >>> student of the year award would not be, in my opinion, out of line as a >>> well-organized promotion and recruitment tool. >>> >>> Make these awards a part of the annual business meeting or winter banquet. >>> Create the right amount of hype around the occasion, and in no time this new >>> tradition could be manipulated to serve several important functions. >>> >>> 3. Community Service >>> >>> Nothing builds character more profoundly than the satisfaction of working >>> hard to help others. In the NFB we pride ourselves in helping other blind >>> people achieve higher levels of independence and self-sufficiency. I >>> believe this should only be half of the equation. The NFB philosophy is >>> primarily built on the notion that blind people can and should adjust to >>> society rather than expect society to adjust to the blind. Therefore, in my >>> opinion, it is not enough to convince a person that it can be respectable to >>> be blind. I believe the step beyond this persuasion is to show them how to >>> succeed despite being blind. After all, it makes very little sense to >>> produce a fully competent blind hero if said hero is not given a means to >>> exercise his or her newfound skills. To me, there is nothing more >>> discouraging than seeing an awesome blind person stay in the blindness field >>> because they feel that is the only field where they can continue to be >>> awesome. >>> >>> So, I think we should take our philosophy a step further. If we truly >>> believe that success is contingent on our adjustment to society, we should >>> make it our business to help society as much, if not more, than we help our >>> fellow blind people. To that end I believe every state student division >>> should democratically select an issue the membership feels strongly about >>> lending their support. These issues can be poverty and homelessness, >>> disaster prevention, civic action, health and fitness, etc. >>> >>> Benefits: >>> >>> A. Visibility >>> >>> Blind people are all too often seen as the beneficiaries of social services >>> rather than the contributors. What better way to discourage this general >>> notion than the active participation of blind people in social activities >>> that help vulnerable populations. Earlier I said that state student >>> divisions should each select an issue, but I do not think it impossible for >>> NABS representatives to take time from National Convention or Washington >>> Seminar to prepare and distribute food for the homeless at a local soup >>> kitchen. The argument will be made that there is already too much going on >>> during these national gatherings. I would respond with a reminder that most >>> of the activities going on during these events are geared at promoting >>> independence, and there will never be a better time to make a statement of >>> this independence amongst ourselves and to the public than a concerted >>> effort at putting independence into practice in the company of blind people >>> with such a wide array of skills. Maximum impact will always be achieved >>> away from the microphone rather than behind it. >>> >>> Imagine yourselves participating in a walk-a-thon supporting the cause of >>> your choice with t-shirts sporting the name of your division. It's a good >>> public relations technique wrapped up in social integration. You'll make >>> new friends and therefore make yourself stronger as an individual while you >>> make NABS a stronger organization. >>> >>> You will not weaken your division because you are not making community >>> service the centerpiece of your operation. You are simply making service >>> the added bonus of belonging to the group and a convenient avenue to >>> practice what you preach. >>> >>> B. Job Readiness >>> >>> Blind people will have a more difficult task of finding a job if they have >>> never been given the opportunity to learn the basic skills that are not >>> taught in the classroom. Budgeting, filing, e-mail etiquette, project >>> management and so on could be learned by reading a number of web sites and >>> enrolling in a few specialized courses, but if you do not have examples of >>> how these skills have been utilized, what good are they in your resume? >>> Volunteer opportunities do not always involve rolling up your sleeves and >>> picking up garbage along the highway. You should do these activities at >>> least once anyway, because one of my more memorable bonding experiences came >>> about in a human chain as we worked to clear out trash from underneath a >>> church building. Yet, you could help an organization build and maintain a >>> web site. You could help them write press releases. You could help a >>> teacher at an after school program tutor children. Whatever the case may >>> be, pick a cause you and your members would enjoy doing and go out and do it >>> together. You will grow closer as a group and learn to improve skills than >>> can later be used in the hunt for an awesome job. >>> >>> C. Partnerships >>> >>> In the last installment I wrote of the benefits of establishing >>> partnerships. In this context, think of the visibility another organization >>> could help bring you through your participation in their activities. The >>> Humane Society, the Red Cross, Boys and Girls Club, Boy Scouts, the American >>> Cancer Society are all prolific outfits that could benefit from your help in >>> exchange for publicity. Your involvement in their activities could also >>> help generate more material for your fundraising efforts. Sponsors like to >>> see what you're about, and while seminars to encourage blind students to be >>> great people are great things for us, a prospective funder will be much more >>> impressed if you can show how your preaching is ultimately helping your >>> local communities. Find different ways to maximize your bang for their >>> buck, and perhaps even more importantly, find ways to have fun exercising >>> the NFB philosophy. Volunteer service really can be exciting if you find >>> several ways to make it work for you and the organization you represent. >>> >>> This concludes the list of changes I would have offered in my hypothetical >>> presidency. As I've said, these were geared for the division at the >>> national level, but I hope I gave you enough of a glimpse of how they could >>> be implemented at the state level with equal efficiency. So far there are >>> at least fifteen pages worth of ideas and suggestions anyone could take and >>> make happen both at the state and national levels. Though the ideas may >>> seem elaborate, they are really nothing more than cumulative blocks that >>> work in sync with one another if properly coordinated. My overriding theme >>> has been job readiness and collaboration. Ultimately I believe the >>> membership should enjoy being a part of NABS and to a greater extent the >>> NFB. The board ought to be able to count on partnerships with other >>> divisions, organizations and companies to make the work of implementing >>> these plans possible. Other people could generate their own themes and >>> platforms and produce their own lists of objectives with equal or better >>> success if they only took the time to map it out. >>> >>> There would be a few other minor things I would like to see implemented >>> regardless of who assumes the presidency of the national student division. >>> Create a division song. Roll out bracelets or some other apparel. Write a >>> division pledge. Propose a division toast at the winter banquet. In >>> essence, think of little customs and traditions that can be specific to >>> NABS. Make NABS something cool to belong to, and keep it balanced, because >>> remember your audience can range from the five-year-old Kindergartner to the >>> fifty-year-old doctoral candidate. >>> >>> I understand there are people in the ranks who believe my proposal is too >>> much to swallow on account of us being volunteers. To these individuals I >>> say, "Come up with a better excuse." The small group of volunteers who met >>> to dream of and conceive the National Federation of the Blind did not think >>> their vision was too ambitious, and their tasks in the thirty years >>> following the organization's establishment were far more complex and >>> daunting than my little rambling proposal as a whole. I do not believe the >>> things I have outlined need to be implemented next week. In fact, I believe >>> it would take a couple years to establish a good foundation, but the point >>> is that you have to start somewhere. You have to take a few risks. You >>> have to allow yourself to be held accountable. You have to learn to want >>> and expect more, and you have to allow your ideas to be challenged and >>> changed by the people you will trust to get it all done. >>> >>> But, we can cover these points in the next installment of my meandering >>> thoughts, where I offer my controversial views on student leadership. >>> >>> To be continued... >>> >>> Joe Orozco >>> >>> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the >>> crowd."--Max Lucado >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >>> database 4131 (20090604) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 00:10:48 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:10:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled Users SurvivesResistance From In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906071551n59be3451u2641fb653d4e8950@mail.gmail.com> References: <8AF85696854F43A7BF007F09D2FD9D90@sacomputer> <002901c9e7af$0692b220$0401a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906071551n59be3451u2641fb653d4e8950@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906071710t7d59689amdebbb054fd34b039@mail.gmail.com> I second that one. 'copyright holders are being what they are, greedy, as they also are in music. The reading and recording industries are both hoodlums to me at least. lol Beth On 6/7/09, alena roberts wrote: > Thanks for posting this to the list. The treaty hasn't been signed, > but at least it hasn't been voted down. I think this is a good topic > for all of us to get behind. Our legislators and the president need to > understand that everyone has the right to read regardless of their > reading ability. Copywrite holders are just being greedy as usual. > > Alena > > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 00:40:28 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 17:40:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled UsersSurvivesResistance From In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0906071710t7d59689amdebbb054fd34b039@mail.gmail.com> References: <8AF85696854F43A7BF007F09D2FD9D90@sacomputer><002901c9e7af$0692b220$0401a8c0@Serene><3af83dbb0906071551n59be3451u2641fb653d4e8950@mail.gmail.com> <4383d01d0906071710t7d59689amdebbb054fd34b039@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14DDF4BFA733407291D8B876EC7E0E78@sacomputer> Yeah I agree. I'm already fighting that campain. www.savenetradio.org I'll shut up about that one though as that is OT for this list. Take care all. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 5:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cross-Border Sharing of Books for Disabled UsersSurvivesResistance From I second that one. 'copyright holders are being what they are, greedy, as they also are in music. The reading and recording industries are both hoodlums to me at least. lol Beth On 6/7/09, alena roberts wrote: > Thanks for posting this to the list. The treaty hasn't been signed, > but at least it hasn't been voted down. I think this is a good topic > for all of us to get behind. Our legislators and the president need to > understand that everyone has the right to read regardless of their > reading ability. Copywrite holders are just being greedy as usual. > > Alena > > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloos > e%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 11:36:53 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 06:36:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] My Own Internet Radio Station Radio360 Launches Tonight!!! Message-ID: <929ADACFC9C744B8BA57A7CA8151E9D6@thedjdinvasion> Hello There! If you're tired of listening to the same old songs on the radio, and the same old djs doing the same old announcements, contests, and commercials, then why not check out a new radio station that is hitting the internet air waves tonight! This evening, starting at 8 PM eastern, Radio360, a new station where variety matters and the listeners matter the most is going to launch, and you're invited to the kick off party, presented by The Djd Invasion! This station has been a project in the works for a long time, and it's finally ready to go live to the public! We've got a nice blend of broadcasters who each have their own talents and variety to bring to the table, and more people are on their way. And when no one is on live, you the listener get total control over the music, as you get to pick what you want to hear from our ever growing library of songs! But I'll leave you to check that out over the course of the week and beyond. The Djd Invasion Radio360 Kick Off Party begins at 8 PM eastern, and will feature some great celebratory music to get a radio station kicked off in style! I will be joined by close friends and by others who will be taking part as broadcasters on the station. The radio station web site will also be brought online at the same time as the show, so you can see what we're about, read the schedule of shows, apply for a slot if interested in broadcasting, and more!!! So come join the party, bring along your friends, and your requests! Yes, we unlike traditional radio stations actually play your requests! You can send them in by email, msn messenger, or aol instant messenger to the address live at radio360.us by yahoo messenger at the address radio360usa or when I'm on the microphone and not playing songs, you are welcome to call in live to the station using your telephone or skype! The telephone number is 516-717-4425 or you can hit the station up on skype at radio360usa So if you want to attend Radio360's welcome to the cyberworld party, save this email, and at 8 PM eastern, head on over to http://www.radio360.us and follow the links there for tuning into the program! Please note that the site will not be online until that time. I've been waiting to bring this station online for a long time, and now the night has come at last, so turn up your speakers, bring your family and friends, and let's get ready to rock and roll! I hope to see you all there tonight! Best regards, David Dunphy, station manager for Radio360 http://www.radio360.us From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 16:38:13 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 02:38:13 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Action Plan, Part 4 In-Reply-To: <20090607225917.GA12229@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <37D4F3F6879145719F3CAA5EA0CC5B11@Rufus> <20090605025808.GJ52832@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090606230632.GE5234@yumi.bluecherry.net> <20090607225917.GA12229@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Hi Joseph, Glad that you and Ryan reached a point of reconciliation and agreement. I've found that often comments can be accidentally taken out of context, especially when written through email. It's important not to read too much into electronic communications since they don't include voice inflections and other cues that can point us to the proper interpretation. I served on the NABS board when Ryan was president and I am confident that Ryan wouldn't intentionally exclude any demographic groups (nontraditional students etc.) from NABS or its leadership. I am glad you raised the issue, though, because I have a feeling that you aren't the only person with this concern. It is something I will keep in mind when designing NABS programs in the future. I also agree that NABS should have a stronger advocacy presence and I plan to talk with the legislative folks at national about the best ways to assist their national advocacy efforts. One idea is for NABS to pick one issue each year, which has both local and national impacts, and try to focus on that issue throughout the year and at our two national meetings. How do you guys think NABS can best aid local advocacy efforts specific to students, such as attempts to reform DSS practices or address individual discrimination cases? One final thing for us to remember is that NABS isn't an autonomous organization. We are a chartered division of the National Federation of the Blind, and as such we are bound by the NFB's constitution, rules, etc. We have to balance our own goals and interests with the directives we get from the national office. However, this also works to our advantage because we share resources and strategies with them in an effort to achieve our common goals. Arielle On 6/8/09, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Hey all, > > I got a call from Ryan Strunk this morning. He explained what he > meant by his comment. I understand and agree with his explanation, > though I'm not able to adequately articulate his position now. (My > excuse is that it is finals week for us quarter-based students. As > an aside to high school students: If you're considering a college > that uses the quarter system, reconsider for the sake of sanity.) > > We discussed some possibilities for addressing wider inclusion of > both younger and older students and partnership with parent > divisions. I also discussed with him an idea I had, but won't share > now both for the above reason and because I haven't talked to my own > board yet. > > It was a good call, and Ryan's input has been invaluable in things I > will begin working on over the next few weeks. The one thing that I > feel it is important to share now is that my interpretation of Ryan's > comment was not as he intended it. Moreover since he did not see my > reply, he had no idea that I took it personally, which allowed the > misunderstanding to persist. > > My apologies for creating much ado over what ultimately was a small > thing. > > Joseph > > > On Sat, Jun 06, 2009 at 04:06:32PM -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Since about three people have told me there are other factors Ryan may >> not have wanted to drag me into, I'll chalk up his comment in response to >> my question as possibly the best answer he could think of to avoid doing >> so. I am certain he had no idea something he offered dismissively would >> be taken personally. >> >> With that perspective, I no longer do. It seems important to me, >> though, to set the record straight. I was apparently wrong about this. >> >> I continue to believe that NABS should work to reach out to both younger >> and older students to advance the goals of this organization and of the >> NFB as a whole. >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 07:58:08PM -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>> Joe, >>> >>> I still believe that you are the only person I have seen on this list >>> who is capable of realizing this plan. Yet I do not believe your >>> proposal is likely to be implemented in whole or even in significant >>> part at this time. You say that these ideas are less ambitious than >>> those the earliest Federationists took upon themselves, and you are >>> right. That said, however, NABS appears to presently have a much >>> narrower focus in terms of what it wants to do, and for whom. >>> >>> I tried to drum up some support to convince you to run for the NABS >>> presidency, as you already know. I stopped when I read this comment >>> written by Ryan Strunk: "...he's too old. The division is made up of >>> 18 to 25 year olds. He's slipping outside of that range..." >>> >>> I have to tell you that I have never felt less welcome by any NFB >>> affiliate than when I read those comments by a former president of >>> NABS—the guy who ran this organization during my first opportunity to >>> meet with students involved in this organization. I was more than a >>> little hurt to read that comment. >>> >>> I have been one of those busting my butt here in Oregon to establish >>> the Oregon NABS affiliate while battling harsh and vindictive >>> discrimination in my university and a ruthless effort to close the >>> Oregon School for the Blind. When the term ends next week, the >>> discrimination will end with it. With "normal" academic demands, >>> there's far more I believe I can do, and far more that I want to do. >>> >>> Until our NABS leadership begins to look to expand the organization >>> beyond the narrow scope of 18-25 year olds and its present fear of >>> actual disagreement on any issue of substance, NABS will be little more >>> than a social club. Without a wider demographic target and the >>> occasional willingness to take on a difficult or controversial topic, >>> NABS cannot be what it should be: A powerful student organization that >>> speaks for the blind student with a unified voice that will not be >>> ignored. >>> >>> Now, one of my personality traits is that I am very results oriented. >>> This is both a strength and a limitation; I will leave it to the reader >>> to determine which it is today: I have no time for a social club, but I >>> will make time for the powerful student association. >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 05:02:06PM -0400, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> 1. The Student Slate >>>> >>>> In my opinion, no job in the NABS board is more frustrating than the >>>> editorship of the Student Slate. Thankfully, I have never had to wear >>>> the >>>> hat of editor for the newsletter, but I have in some way assisted with >>>> its >>>> revision and compilation for the past four years. You will of course >>>> notice >>>> that in the past four years the publication of the newsletter has not >>>> been >>>> consistent, and while it may be all too easy to blame the editor, >>>> perhaps >>>> even the board as a whole, for not doing their job, I assure you the >>>> blame >>>> is completely your own for not writing an article when articles have >>>> been >>>> requested. >>>> >>>> It's ironic really. On the NABS-L list alone you might come across >>>> twenty >>>> posts from a single individual telling you the same thing twenty >>>> different >>>> times in the course of a single day. Some people wonder where they find >>>> the >>>> time to post so much. I wonder why these people haven't written >>>> articles? >>>> This is not a rhetorical question. If the shoe fits, talk to Jennifer >>>> Kennedy about how to submit something for publication. Unless things >>>> have >>>> changed, it was my understanding she wanted to put out another issue >>>> prior >>>> to convention. >>>> >>>> I offer two alternatives: >>>> >>>> A. Impose a moratorium on the Student Slate >>>> >>>> Every national organization should have a regular publication, but if >>>> this >>>> cannot be done, put it to sleep temporarily. Instead, come out with a >>>> monthly briefing. ... I know, you're thinking that if we can't get our >>>> act >>>> together on a publication that is supposed to be published four times a >>>> year, how in hell are we going to push one out once a month? People >>>> assume >>>> a publication has to be long and brimming with information. It does not >>>> have to be written that way. A simple update on the state of the >>>> division >>>> would suffice. A word from the president letting the membership know >>>> what >>>> the board has been doing and what it is planning is sufficient. Think >>>> of it >>>> as a condensed version of the Presidential Releases Dr. Maurer puts out >>>> for >>>> the organization at large. Even a well-written, well-organized >>>> one-pager >>>> would keep the masses happy, because it lets them know that their board >>>> is >>>> doing something beneficial. Later, when the division picks up steam and >>>> the >>>> Student Slate can be revived, feel free to bring it back. >>>> >>>> B. Turn the Student Slate into a magazine format >>>> >>>> If the idea of putting the Student Slate is too much of a break from >>>> tradition, consider changing the overall format of the publication. >>>> Right >>>> now we have five or six different stories of people doing great things >>>> in >>>> their lives. I think this is fine, but after a while we must surely >>>> realize >>>> that there are only so many ways to be an awesome blind person. As much >>>> as >>>> I enjoyed the Kernel book series, I was not all that sad to see it end, >>>> because many of the stories are of the type of material that can be >>>> found in >>>> the Braille Monitor. >>>> >>>> So, consider beginning special columns. You can have an interview >>>> column >>>> that focuses on the accomplishments of a board member or another leader >>>> in >>>> the NFB, or consider going out and interviewing someone who is not in >>>> the >>>> organization but who is still doing something great with themselves. I >>>> wouldn't mind reading an interview from Ginny Owens or David Paterson. >>>> Now >>>> you're probably thinking it would be too hard to interview those people. >>>> Begin with their publicist, chief of staff, publisher, depending on the >>>> nature of the person's profession. You could have a column on emerging >>>> technology. You could have another column on fashion sense and >>>> socializing. >>>> Another column could focus on following our legislative progress. Dear >>>> Abby? Remember, this is a student publication. The idea is not without >>>> merit, especially if the inquiries are of the variety related to >>>> blindness >>>> that some people are too shy to ask. >>>> >>>> Whether you go with the first suggestion or the second, you need not >>>> feel as >>>> though you yourself have to be generating all the news. Sometimes >>>> newsletters focus completely on the noise other people are creating, but >>>> the >>>> news is validated because it is coming from you. >>>> >>>> If partnerships are established, you can elevate your publication by >>>> incorporating the developments of those organizations. Using last >>>> installment's examples, you could reprint an article from Sports and >>>> Recreation's Competition Corner. You could help promote an event for >>>> the >>>> parents. In either case, you can expect that the gesture will be >>>> reciprocated, and any opportunity to expand your scope lends you the >>>> perfect >>>> opportunity to further highlight the funders that will begin to invest >>>> in >>>> your cause with all the popularity you slowly begin to accumulate. >>>> >>>> 2. Awards >>>> >>>> Hard work should be recognized. Just as the state affiliate with the >>>> greatest number of registered convention participants is given a banner, >>>> the >>>> state student division with the greatest number of registered students >>>> should receive a banner or certificate or trophy or some other type of >>>> incentive. Maybe a contest should be arranged to find the best looking >>>> banner? In either case, this begins to set up a friendly competition >>>> among >>>> the state divisions to recruit and bring the most number of members they >>>> can >>>> to convention. Alternatively, recognize state divisions for simply >>>> doing a >>>> good job regardless of the number of people they bring to the national >>>> convention. Some states may not have the numbers but do wonderful >>>> things to >>>> keep things happening in their states. >>>> >>>> I like the idea of the Blind Bargains web site recognizing companies for >>>> their innovative solutions. Why could NABS not run a similar voting >>>> session >>>> to recognize an exceptional DSS office, organization or company doing >>>> great >>>> things on behalf of the blind population, particularly students? Part >>>> of >>>> making a name for your organization comes with building your own sense >>>> of >>>> prestige. You represent the greatest number of blind students in the >>>> country. Now take this claim and legitimize your position by handing >>>> out >>>> certificates to groups deserving of your formal recognition. If you are >>>> successful at creating a good image for your activities, other people >>>> will >>>> buy into your elevated position and will want to be associated with what >>>> you >>>> have to offer. >>>> >>>> And, where is the harm in recognizing rising stars amongst the student >>>> ranks? Some of you are really out there busting your butts, making a >>>> difference and generally making the rest of us look good. We should >>>> know >>>> who you are, what you're doing and how we can learn from your success. >>>> A >>>> student of the year award would not be, in my opinion, out of line as a >>>> well-organized promotion and recruitment tool. >>>> >>>> Make these awards a part of the annual business meeting or winter >>>> banquet. >>>> Create the right amount of hype around the occasion, and in no time this >>>> new >>>> tradition could be manipulated to serve several important functions. >>>> >>>> 3. Community Service >>>> >>>> Nothing builds character more profoundly than the satisfaction of >>>> working >>>> hard to help others. In the NFB we pride ourselves in helping other >>>> blind >>>> people achieve higher levels of independence and self-sufficiency. I >>>> believe this should only be half of the equation. The NFB philosophy is >>>> primarily built on the notion that blind people can and should adjust to >>>> society rather than expect society to adjust to the blind. Therefore, >>>> in my >>>> opinion, it is not enough to convince a person that it can be >>>> respectable to >>>> be blind. I believe the step beyond this persuasion is to show them how >>>> to >>>> succeed despite being blind. After all, it makes very little sense to >>>> produce a fully competent blind hero if said hero is not given a means >>>> to >>>> exercise his or her newfound skills. To me, there is nothing more >>>> discouraging than seeing an awesome blind person stay in the blindness >>>> field >>>> because they feel that is the only field where they can continue to be >>>> awesome. >>>> >>>> So, I think we should take our philosophy a step further. If we truly >>>> believe that success is contingent on our adjustment to society, we >>>> should >>>> make it our business to help society as much, if not more, than we help >>>> our >>>> fellow blind people. To that end I believe every state student division >>>> should democratically select an issue the membership feels strongly >>>> about >>>> lending their support. These issues can be poverty and homelessness, >>>> disaster prevention, civic action, health and fitness, etc. >>>> >>>> Benefits: >>>> >>>> A. Visibility >>>> >>>> Blind people are all too often seen as the beneficiaries of social >>>> services >>>> rather than the contributors. What better way to discourage this >>>> general >>>> notion than the active participation of blind people in social >>>> activities >>>> that help vulnerable populations. Earlier I said that state student >>>> divisions should each select an issue, but I do not think it impossible >>>> for >>>> NABS representatives to take time from National Convention or Washington >>>> Seminar to prepare and distribute food for the homeless at a local soup >>>> kitchen. The argument will be made that there is already too much going >>>> on >>>> during these national gatherings. I would respond with a reminder that >>>> most >>>> of the activities going on during these events are geared at promoting >>>> independence, and there will never be a better time to make a statement >>>> of >>>> this independence amongst ourselves and to the public than a concerted >>>> effort at putting independence into practice in the company of blind >>>> people >>>> with such a wide array of skills. Maximum impact will always be >>>> achieved >>>> away from the microphone rather than behind it. >>>> >>>> Imagine yourselves participating in a walk-a-thon supporting the cause >>>> of >>>> your choice with t-shirts sporting the name of your division. It's a >>>> good >>>> public relations technique wrapped up in social integration. You'll >>>> make >>>> new friends and therefore make yourself stronger as an individual while >>>> you >>>> make NABS a stronger organization. >>>> >>>> You will not weaken your division because you are not making community >>>> service the centerpiece of your operation. You are simply making >>>> service >>>> the added bonus of belonging to the group and a convenient avenue to >>>> practice what you preach. >>>> >>>> B. Job Readiness >>>> >>>> Blind people will have a more difficult task of finding a job if they >>>> have >>>> never been given the opportunity to learn the basic skills that are not >>>> taught in the classroom. Budgeting, filing, e-mail etiquette, project >>>> management and so on could be learned by reading a number of web sites >>>> and >>>> enrolling in a few specialized courses, but if you do not have examples >>>> of >>>> how these skills have been utilized, what good are they in your resume? >>>> Volunteer opportunities do not always involve rolling up your sleeves >>>> and >>>> picking up garbage along the highway. You should do these activities at >>>> least once anyway, because one of my more memorable bonding experiences >>>> came >>>> about in a human chain as we worked to clear out trash from underneath a >>>> church building. Yet, you could help an organization build and maintain >>>> a >>>> web site. You could help them write press releases. You could help a >>>> teacher at an after school program tutor children. Whatever the case >>>> may >>>> be, pick a cause you and your members would enjoy doing and go out and >>>> do it >>>> together. You will grow closer as a group and learn to improve skills >>>> than >>>> can later be used in the hunt for an awesome job. >>>> >>>> C. Partnerships >>>> >>>> In the last installment I wrote of the benefits of establishing >>>> partnerships. In this context, think of the visibility another >>>> organization >>>> could help bring you through your participation in their activities. >>>> The >>>> Humane Society, the Red Cross, Boys and Girls Club, Boy Scouts, the >>>> American >>>> Cancer Society are all prolific outfits that could benefit from your >>>> help in >>>> exchange for publicity. Your involvement in their activities could also >>>> help generate more material for your fundraising efforts. Sponsors like >>>> to >>>> see what you're about, and while seminars to encourage blind students to >>>> be >>>> great people are great things for us, a prospective funder will be much >>>> more >>>> impressed if you can show how your preaching is ultimately helping your >>>> local communities. Find different ways to maximize your bang for their >>>> buck, and perhaps even more importantly, find ways to have fun >>>> exercising >>>> the NFB philosophy. Volunteer service really can be exciting if you >>>> find >>>> several ways to make it work for you and the organization you represent. >>>> >>>> This concludes the list of changes I would have offered in my >>>> hypothetical >>>> presidency. As I've said, these were geared for the division at the >>>> national level, but I hope I gave you enough of a glimpse of how they >>>> could >>>> be implemented at the state level with equal efficiency. So far there >>>> are >>>> at least fifteen pages worth of ideas and suggestions anyone could take >>>> and >>>> make happen both at the state and national levels. Though the ideas may >>>> seem elaborate, they are really nothing more than cumulative blocks that >>>> work in sync with one another if properly coordinated. My overriding >>>> theme >>>> has been job readiness and collaboration. Ultimately I believe the >>>> membership should enjoy being a part of NABS and to a greater extent the >>>> NFB. The board ought to be able to count on partnerships with other >>>> divisions, organizations and companies to make the work of implementing >>>> these plans possible. Other people could generate their own themes and >>>> platforms and produce their own lists of objectives with equal or better >>>> success if they only took the time to map it out. >>>> >>>> There would be a few other minor things I would like to see implemented >>>> regardless of who assumes the presidency of the national student >>>> division. >>>> Create a division song. Roll out bracelets or some other apparel. >>>> Write a >>>> division pledge. Propose a division toast at the winter banquet. In >>>> essence, think of little customs and traditions that can be specific to >>>> NABS. Make NABS something cool to belong to, and keep it balanced, >>>> because >>>> remember your audience can range from the five-year-old Kindergartner to >>>> the >>>> fifty-year-old doctoral candidate. >>>> >>>> I understand there are people in the ranks who believe my proposal is >>>> too >>>> much to swallow on account of us being volunteers. To these individuals >>>> I >>>> say, "Come up with a better excuse." The small group of volunteers who >>>> met >>>> to dream of and conceive the National Federation of the Blind did not >>>> think >>>> their vision was too ambitious, and their tasks in the thirty years >>>> following the organization's establishment were far more complex and >>>> daunting than my little rambling proposal as a whole. I do not believe >>>> the >>>> things I have outlined need to be implemented next week. In fact, I >>>> believe >>>> it would take a couple years to establish a good foundation, but the >>>> point >>>> is that you have to start somewhere. You have to take a few risks. You >>>> have to allow yourself to be held accountable. You have to learn to >>>> want >>>> and expect more, and you have to allow your ideas to be challenged and >>>> changed by the people you will trust to get it all done. >>>> >>>> But, we can cover these points in the next installment of my meandering >>>> thoughts, where I offer my controversial views on student leadership. >>>> >>>> To be continued... >>>> >>>> Joe Orozco >>>> >>>> "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the >>>> crowd."--Max Lucado >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 4131 (20090604) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 19:12:30 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:12:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby Message-ID: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the right to choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is below. If I already sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby athlete says he is capable Janice Tibbetts Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the disabled, Air Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's contention that he should be allowed to fly without an attendant. The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby resident Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his service dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he has made many past trips on planes, trains and buses. "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a Paralympic bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot walk and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel unattended. Why not me?" Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human Rights Tribunal decision in January. The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel alone, but said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance rather than automatically ordered to bring an attendant. The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the airline to pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not contesting the award. "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the disabled passenger and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick cited the recent rescue of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River as an example of a successful and quick evacuation. The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when he unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San Francisco without being accompanied by an assistant. He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not have to shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada policy has recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free domestically, the concession does not apply to international travel. The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians said Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending its limited resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who wants to travel independently. "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes that a person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. Barring that, each case should be individually assessed, particularly since there are varying degrees of impairment, he said. Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, a condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his late 40s, he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely limited vision in his right eye. Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety procedures and would be able to find the emergency exits by following the lights along the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file cards containing such phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, please write on my palm in large block letters." He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of him, and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian Transportation Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was justified in discriminating against Morten. Sarah Alawami msn: chellist at hotmail.com website: http://www.marrie.org twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 From serenacucco at verizon.net Mon Jun 8 21:39:04 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:39:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> Message-ID: <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> I absolutely agree with you! I have a friend who's deaf-blind. Once he gets older and is able to travel independently, I would never want him to be denied the right to travel alone if he thinks he's able to do so! Many deaf-blind people do use assistants they call "SSPs" (support service providers) to assist them when necessary and, if hearing, interpret for them. If the client in the case feels he doesn't need an SSP, he certainly should be allowed to travel without one. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:12 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby > What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the right > to > choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is below. If I > already > sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. > > Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby > athlete says he is capable > > Janice Tibbetts > Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 > > In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the disabled, > Air > Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's contention that he should be > allowed to fly without an attendant. > > The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby > resident > Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. > > Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his service > dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he has made many > past trips on planes, trains and buses. > > "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a > Paralympic > bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. > > "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot walk > and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel unattended. > Why > not me?" > > Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human > Rights > Tribunal decision in January. > > The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel alone, > but > said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance rather than > automatically ordered to bring an attendant. > > The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to > accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the airline > to > pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not contesting the award. > > "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's spokesman > Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the disabled passenger > and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick cited the recent > rescue > of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River as an example of a > successful > and quick evacuation. > > The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when he > unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San Francisco > without being accompanied by an assistant. > > He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not have > to > shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada policy has > recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free domestically, > the > concession does not apply to international travel. > > The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians said > Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending its > limited > resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who wants to travel > independently. > > "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes that > a > person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. Barring > that, > each case should be individually assessed, particularly since there are > varying degrees of impairment, he said. > > Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, a > condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his late > 40s, > he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely limited vision in > his right eye. > > Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety > procedures > and would be able to find the emergency exits by following the lights > along > the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file cards containing such > phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, please write on my palm in > large > block letters." > > He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of him, > and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. > > The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal > overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. > > Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian Transportation > Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was justified in > discriminating > against Morten. > > > Sarah Alawami > msn: chellist at hotmail.com > website: http://www.marrie.org > twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 8 23:12:52 2009 From: commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net (Kevin Wassmer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:12:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> Message-ID: <85E0924855F0420D8E90C7D5C491DE0F@usore540475a8f> This is absolutely ridiculous. The things that bauther me about this is number 1, this could happen in the U.S. number 2, I have traveled in Canada alone without assistance and they didn't have a problem with it. Now when I came back home from Canada, I did have an assistant traveling with me. But that was at the discression of the mission president not the airlines. Still however, this bauthers the hell out of me. horus Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:12 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby > What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the right > to > choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is below. If I > already > sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. > > Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby > athlete says he is capable > > Janice Tibbetts > Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 > > In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the disabled, > Air > Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's contention that he should be > allowed to fly without an attendant. > > The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby > resident > Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. > > Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his service > dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he has made many > past trips on planes, trains and buses. > > "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a > Paralympic > bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. > > "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot walk > and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel unattended. > Why > not me?" > > Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human > Rights > Tribunal decision in January. > > The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel alone, > but > said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance rather than > automatically ordered to bring an attendant. > > The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to > accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the airline > to > pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not contesting the award. > > "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's spokesman > Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the disabled passenger > and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick cited the recent > rescue > of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River as an example of a > successful > and quick evacuation. > > The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when he > unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San Francisco > without being accompanied by an assistant. > > He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not have > to > shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada policy has > recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free domestically, > the > concession does not apply to international travel. > > The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians said > Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending its > limited > resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who wants to travel > independently. > > "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes that > a > person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. Barring > that, > each case should be individually assessed, particularly since there are > varying degrees of impairment, he said. > > Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, a > condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his late > 40s, > he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely limited vision in > his right eye. > > Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety > procedures > and would be able to find the emergency exits by following the lights > along > the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file cards containing such > phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, please write on my palm in > large > block letters." > > He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of him, > and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. > > The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal > overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. > > Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian Transportation > Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was justified in > discriminating > against Morten. > > > Sarah Alawami > msn: chellist at hotmail.com > website: http://www.marrie.org > twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net > From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 23:41:47 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:41:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right totravel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <0244B09AF0684FA8B9D23228029C55C1@sacomputer> I agree 100 percent . I'm not deaf blind but if that were ever to happen I would want to choose if I could do thing sby myself especially travel. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Serena Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right totravel alone; Burnaby I absolutely agree with you! I have a friend who's deaf-blind. Once he gets older and is able to travel independently, I would never want him to be denied the right to travel alone if he thinks he's able to do so! Many deaf-blind people do use assistants they call "SSPs" (support service providers) to assist them when necessary and, if hearing, interpret for them. If the client in the case feels he doesn't need an SSP, he certainly should be allowed to travel without one. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:12 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby > What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the > right to choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is > below. If I already sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. > > Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; > Burnaby athlete says he is capable > > Janice Tibbetts > Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 > > In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the > disabled, Air Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's > contention that he should be allowed to fly without an attendant. > > The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby > resident Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. > > Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his > service dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he > has made many past trips on planes, trains and buses. > > "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a > Paralympic bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. > > "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot > walk and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel unattended. > Why > not me?" > > Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human > Rights Tribunal decision in January. > > The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel > alone, but said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance > rather than automatically ordered to bring an attendant. > > The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to > accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the > airline to pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not > contesting the award. > > "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's > spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the > disabled passenger and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick > cited the recent rescue of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River > as an example of a successful and quick evacuation. > > The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when > he unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San > Francisco without being accompanied by an assistant. > > He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not > have to shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada > policy has recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free > domestically, the concession does not apply to international travel. > > The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians > said Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending > its limited resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who > wants to travel independently. > > "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes > that a person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. > Barring that, each case should be individually assessed, particularly > since there are varying degrees of impairment, he said. > > Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, > a condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his > late 40s, he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely > limited vision in his right eye. > > Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety > procedures and would be able to find the emergency exits by following > the lights along the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file > cards containing such phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, > please write on my palm in large block letters." > > He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of > him, and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. > > The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal > overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. > > Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian > Transportation Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was > justified in discriminating against Morten. > > > Sarah Alawami > msn: chellist at hotmail.com > website: http://www.marrie.org > twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40 > verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 00:13:10 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:13:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <85E0924855F0420D8E90C7D5C491DE0F@usore540475a8f> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> <85E0924855F0420D8E90C7D5C491DE0F@usore540475a8f> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906081713r7be0dadaydf992bf30b28037@mail.gmail.com> THis is completely absurtd. Even I could travel alone if given the opportunities and training. Beth On 6/8/09, Kevin Wassmer wrote: > This is absolutely ridiculous. The things that bauther me about this is > number 1, this could happen in the U.S. number 2, I have traveled in Canada > alone without assistance and they didn't have a problem with it. Now when I > came back home from Canada, I did have an assistant traveling with me. But > that was at the discression of the mission president not the airlines. Still > however, this bauthers the hell out of me. > > horus > > Cause its been 18 days > Since I first held you > But to me it feels just like > It feels like a lifetime > I'm trying hard to re-arrange > Some say its the hardest thing to do > But that's another 18 days > Without you.. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 1:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to > travelalone; Burnaby > > >> What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the right >> to >> choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is below. If I >> already >> sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. >> >> Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby >> athlete says he is capable >> >> Janice Tibbetts >> Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 >> >> In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the disabled, >> Air >> Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's contention that he should be >> allowed to fly without an attendant. >> >> The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby >> resident >> Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. >> >> Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his service >> dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he has made many >> past trips on planes, trains and buses. >> >> "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a >> Paralympic >> bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. >> >> "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot walk >> and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel unattended. >> Why >> not me?" >> >> Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human >> Rights >> Tribunal decision in January. >> >> The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel alone, >> but >> said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance rather than >> automatically ordered to bring an attendant. >> >> The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to >> accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the airline >> to >> pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not contesting the award. >> >> "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's spokesman >> Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the disabled passenger >> and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick cited the recent >> rescue >> of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River as an example of a >> successful >> and quick evacuation. >> >> The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when he >> unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San Francisco >> without being accompanied by an assistant. >> >> He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not have >> to >> shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada policy has >> recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free domestically, >> the >> concession does not apply to international travel. >> >> The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians said >> Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending its >> limited >> resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who wants to travel >> independently. >> >> "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes that >> a >> person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. Barring >> that, >> each case should be individually assessed, particularly since there are >> varying degrees of impairment, he said. >> >> Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, a >> condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his late >> 40s, >> he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely limited vision in >> his right eye. >> >> Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety >> procedures >> and would be able to find the emergency exits by following the lights >> along >> the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file cards containing such >> phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, please write on my palm in >> large >> block letters." >> >> He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of him, >> and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. >> >> The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal >> overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. >> >> Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian Transportation >> Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was justified in >> discriminating >> against Morten. >> >> >> Sarah Alawami >> msn: chellist at hotmail.com >> website: http://www.marrie.org >> twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From terri.rupp at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 00:46:44 2009 From: terri.rupp at gmail.com (Terri Rupp) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:46:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [NFBAffiliatePresidents] Ground transportation service from the airport (DTW) to the Detroit Marriott and Courtyard Marriott hotels at the Renaissance Center and vise-versa. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't know if everyone has gotten this email already, but it couldn't hurt to send it again. See you all in Detroit. Terri Rupp ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Fred Wurtzel Date: Wed, May 27, 2009 at 1:50 PM Subject: [NFBAffiliatePresidents] Ground transportation service from the airport (DTW) to the Detroit Marriott and Courtyard Marriott hotels at the Renaissance Center and vise-versa. To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org May 26, 2009 From: Mr. Fred Wurtzel, NFB of Michigan affiliate president To: NFB members attending the 2009 National Convention in Detroit RE: Ground transportation service from the airport (DTW) to the Detroit Marriott and Courtyard Marriott hotels at the Renaissance Center and vise-versa. We are pleased to share information on a service being made available to NFB members through Enjoi Transportation, prior to, during, and after our convention taking place in Detroit, from July 3rd- July 8th. Enjoi Transportation will offer a range of transportation vehicles from mini-vans to mini-buses, up to 46 passenger motor coaches. All vehicles are air-conditioned. Enjoi Transportation will provide round-trip ground transportation from Detroit Metro Airport (McNamara and North terminals) to the Detroit Marriot at the Renaissance Center to attendees for the round-trip discounted rate of $45.00 per person. Upon arrival at Detroit Metro Airport, attendees will be met by greeters in the baggage claim sections of both terminals who will assist arrivals to the registration table(s) and then onto awaiting shuttles for transport of members and luggage to the hotel(s). Ground transportation service will be available on a 24-hour basis throughout the convention dates. Those interested in this service are encouraged to make reservations at least 48 hours before arrival; however, ground transportation will also be available to attendees upon arrival to Detroit Metro Airport. (Single direction service is also available at $22.50 per person) Reservations can be made starting immediately via phone by using the information stated below. Credit card payments will be accepted. Please note that members who make a reservation, then change their plans and do not cancel their reservation within 48 hours of their scheduled arrival will be charged a one-way trip fee, of $22.50. Please consider this opportunity to save on the cost of transportation while in Detroit. There is no regular shuttle service from the airport terminals to hotels as we have had in other cities. Airport taxi and sedan service is available, but charges are approximately $50 EACH WAY per person. If you are interested in obtaining more information or making a reservation prior to your arrival in Detroit, please contact Enjoi Transportation at one of the following numbers: 1(877) ENJOI-US, 1(877) 365-6487, (313) 758-1000, via fax at (313) 758-1001, or via email at glynn at enjoitrans.com. SPECIAL NOTE: Please be aware the neither the National Federation of the Blind (NFB) nor the NFB of Michigan is responsible for this service in any way. _______________________________________________ NFBAffiliatePresidents mailing list NFBAffiliatePresidents at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbaffiliatepresidents_nfbnet.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Memo-Enjoi Transportation Detroit.doc Type: application/msword Size: 56832 bytes Desc: not available URL: From commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 9 01:04:35 2009 From: commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net (Kevin Wassmer) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:04:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's righttotravel alone; Burnaby References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer><00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> <0244B09AF0684FA8B9D23228029C55C1@sacomputer> Message-ID: We might not be deaf and blind. But it could be only a mater of time before we become the next victims. We have fight the good fight. I don't know how The NFB of Canada will handel this one. horus Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's righttotravel alone; Burnaby >I agree 100 percent . I'm not deaf blind but if that were ever to happen I > would want to choose if I could do thing sby myself especially travel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Serena > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right > totravel > alone; Burnaby > > I absolutely agree with you! I have a friend who's deaf-blind. Once he > gets older and is able to travel independently, I would never want him to > be > denied the right to travel alone if he thinks he's able to do so! Many > deaf-blind people do use assistants they call "SSPs" (support service > providers) to assist them when necessary and, if hearing, interpret for > them. If the client in the case feels he doesn't need an SSP, he > certainly > should be allowed to travel without one. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel > alone; Burnaby > > >> What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the >> right to choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is >> below. If I already sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. >> >> Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; >> Burnaby athlete says he is capable >> >> Janice Tibbetts >> Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 >> >> In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the >> disabled, Air Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's >> contention that he should be allowed to fly without an attendant. >> >> The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby >> resident Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. >> >> Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his >> service dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he >> has made many past trips on planes, trains and buses. >> >> "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a >> Paralympic bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. >> >> "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot >> walk and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel > unattended. >> Why >> not me?" >> >> Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human >> Rights Tribunal decision in January. >> >> The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel >> alone, but said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance >> rather than automatically ordered to bring an attendant. >> >> The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to >> accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the >> airline to pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not >> contesting the award. >> >> "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's >> spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the >> disabled passenger and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick >> cited the recent rescue of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River >> as an example of a successful and quick evacuation. >> >> The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when >> he unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San >> Francisco without being accompanied by an assistant. >> >> He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not >> have to shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada >> policy has recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free >> domestically, the concession does not apply to international travel. >> >> The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians >> said Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending >> its limited resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who >> wants to travel independently. >> >> "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes >> that a person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. >> Barring that, each case should be individually assessed, particularly >> since there are varying degrees of impairment, he said. >> >> Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, >> a condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his >> late 40s, he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely >> limited vision in his right eye. >> >> Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety >> procedures and would be able to find the emergency exits by following >> the lights along the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file >> cards containing such phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, >> please write on my palm in large block letters." >> >> He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of >> him, and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. >> >> The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal >> overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. >> >> Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian >> Transportation Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was >> justified in discriminating against Morten. >> >> >> Sarah Alawami >> msn: chellist at hotmail.com >> website: http://www.marrie.org >> twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40 >> verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net > From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 9 01:05:39 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:05:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Carnival Needs Volunteers Message-ID: I am Andrea Beasley Wisconsin Parents of Blind Children president. I was put in charge of the Braille Carnival and have been working very hard to put together a great carnival that all will enjoy. I have come up with several activities that are all adapted carnival games. I am looking for volunteers for this event. I will need a lot of help with this activity, please let me know if you can help out and where you like to help. The list of games are as follows: balloon pop with Braille notes hidden underneath fishing for Braille letters bean bag toss to make Braille letters and signs face painting Braille letters and signs no bake play dough using a Braille recipe treasure hunt simplified sand buckets with Braille to find within Braille math games quiet table with books, cards, etc... ticket prize booth This is where I am running into trouble, I was asked this weekend to have a separate activity for the middle school age kids because the thought is they will not like these activities so I am now searching for ideas. I hope all of this sounds fun and exciting to you. I know we have a volunteer with a latex allergy and I would love to know who this is and be able to talk with them so if it is you please email me about this. I also have a need for someone who has had experience in face painting. I think I could do this activity if no one feels they could do it. I have a list of needed items so please write me and let me know if you have any of these items and would be willing to bring them with you. tickets- each booth will be passing out tickets to the kids, like at a Chuck E. Cheese where they will spend it at the ticket booth prizes for behind the ticket booth small balloons- I am checking into nonlatex balloons cork board to tac balloons and messages onto darts to pop balloons magnetic fishing poles magnetic Braille print letters small/baby inflatable swimming pool small bean bags muffin tins buckets dry oatmeal- because I think sand would just be too messy slates, stylus, Braille writer, paper, Braille books of various levels, Brailled playing cards, Braille Uno, Brailled board games, etc... for quiet table Brailled notes to place behind the balloons and for the clues for the treasure hunt- might need to be written that morning face paint- preferably one that can be felt not just seen I think that about covers what I had. Again I want to thank everyone for their help and effort that will be put into this fun event, I know my son is very much looking forward to going to convention this year. We did not go last year because I could not travel but this year I will be glad to be back. I will accept any ideas that you all have for the middle schoolers, I hated those years so I have blocked them out and don't remember what I liked to do during that time. :) Thanks, Andrea Contact Info: 608-563-4708 home, 608-314-6384 cell, abeasley at jb11.net From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 9 01:07:55 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:07:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] APA Seeks Comments on Proposed Guidelines Message-ID: APA Seeks Comments on Proposed Guidelines ________________________________ The American Psychological Associations (APA) Task Force on Guidelines for Assessment and Treatment of Persons with Disabilities is seeking comments on the proposed Guidelines for Assessment of and Intervention with Individuals Who Have Disabilities Both the draft document and the comment form are located at: http://forms.apa.org/pi/disability APA would like to disseminate this draft as widely as possible and would appreciate your forwarding the call for comments to your division listserv. The 90-day comment period will end on July 31, 2009. Timothy C. Muzzio, Ph.D. Director, Program, Budget and Evaluation Division National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research Potomac Center Plaza 550 12th Street, SW, Room 6054 Washington, DC 20202-2550 202-245-7458 (voice) 202-245-7323 (fax) From jenandnixon at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 01:19:57 2009 From: jenandnixon at gmail.com (Jen&Nixon) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:19:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man'srighttotravel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer><00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene><0244B09AF0684FA8B9D23228029C55C1@sacomputer> Message-ID: <02c801c9e8a0$68969440$9824c2cf@JenandNixon> We have AEBC which used to be NFB:AE, but they changed their name, the NFB:AE is more specifically located in Vancouver, and not other provinces. I believe I have this information correct *grin* I know the man personally quoted in the article, and he is a fighter. It is quite a surprise as he has traveled around the world when he used to be a competitor in Judo and the paralympcs as well. I've traveled across Canada and US no problem, and I am deafblind myself, even Air Canada!!! Jennifer McEachen and "Nixon" Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc. Alumni Association Board of Directors and secretary jenandnixon at gmail.com / jmceachen at guidedogs.com -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Wassmer Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man'srighttotravel alone; Burnaby We might not be deaf and blind. But it could be only a mater of time before we become the next victims. We have fight the good fight. I don't know how The NFB of Canada will handel this one. horus Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's righttotravel alone; Burnaby >I agree 100 percent . I'm not deaf blind but if that were ever to >happen I would want to choose if I could do thing sby myself especially travel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Serena > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right > totravel alone; Burnaby > > I absolutely agree with you! I have a friend who's deaf-blind. Once > he gets older and is able to travel independently, I would never want > him to be denied the right to travel alone if he thinks he's able to > do so! Many deaf-blind people do use assistants they call "SSPs" > (support service > providers) to assist them when necessary and, if hearing, interpret > for them. If the client in the case feels he doesn't need an SSP, he > certainly should be allowed to travel without one. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to > travel alone; Burnaby > > >> What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the >> right to choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is >> below. If I already sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. >> >> Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; >> Burnaby athlete says he is capable >> >> Janice Tibbetts >> Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 >> >> In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the >> disabled, Air Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's >> contention that he should be allowed to fly without an attendant. >> >> The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby >> resident Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. >> >> Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his >> service dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he >> has made many past trips on planes, trains and buses. >> >> "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a >> Paralympic bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. >> >> "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot >> walk and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel > unattended. >> Why >> not me?" >> >> Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human >> Rights Tribunal decision in January. >> >> The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel >> alone, but said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance >> rather than automatically ordered to bring an attendant. >> >> The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to >> accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the >> airline to pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not >> contesting the award. >> >> "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's >> spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the >> disabled passenger and other passengers on the aircraft." >> Fitzpatrick cited the recent rescue of US Airways passengers in the >> Hudson River as an example of a successful and quick evacuation. >> >> The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when >> he unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San >> Francisco without being accompanied by an assistant. >> >> He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not >> have to shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada >> policy has recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free >> domestically, the concession does not apply to international travel. >> >> The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians >> said Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending >> its limited resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man >> who wants to travel independently. >> >> "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes >> that a person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. >> Barring that, each case should be individually assessed, >> particularly since there are varying degrees of impairment, he said. >> >> Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's >> Syndrome, a condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. >> Now in his late 40s, he is completely blind in his left eye and has >> severely limited vision in his right eye. >> >> Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety >> procedures and would be able to find the emergency exits by >> following the lights along the aisle. He also travels with >> pre-printed file cards containing such phrases as "I am deaf/blind, >> to talk to me, please write on my palm in large block letters." >> >> He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of >> him, and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. >> >> The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal >> overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. >> >> Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian >> Transportation Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was >> justified in discriminating against Morten. >> >> >> Sarah Alawami >> msn: chellist at hotmail.com >> website: http://www.marrie.org >> twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%4 >> 0 >> verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy > 2003%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jenandnixon%40gmail. com From bcsarah.fan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 01:26:30 2009 From: bcsarah.fan at gmail.com (Patricia) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:26:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] facebook mobile Message-ID: <8D7372324F6F47E7847BC5F8F4FDC01C@Athena> Serena, I've just started using it too and love it as well!!! From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 9 01:58:09 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind Message-ID: Vision The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative accessibility features that make it easier to use for those with impaired vision. VoiceOver iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable is that you control it using simple gestures that let you physically interact with items on screen. It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply touch the screen to hear a description of the item under your finger, then gesture with a double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any screen reader you've ever used before. Traditional screen readers describe individual elements on the screen, but struggle to communicate where each element is located or provide information about adjoining objects. This contextual information is very important but typically filtered out by other screen readers. For example, “off-screen” models used by traditional screen readers to represent applications and web pages intentionally strip away contextual information and describe web pages as a list or menu of items. But with VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s touchscreen, you interact directly with objects on the screen and can naturally understand their location and context. So, when you touch the upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, and as you drag your finger around the screen, you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing new sense of context and relationship between the items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. You'll hear descriptions of every item on the screen, including status information such as battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal levels, the cellular network provider, and time of day. It even lets you know when the display changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and when the screen is locked or unlocked. The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it to a speed that best suits your listening ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects to alert you when an application opens, when the screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the volume of background sounds and music are automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. It speaks your language VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. Getting started VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using iTunes with a compatible screen reader like VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to start using it right away. Sighted users can also enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. How it works With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. For example, instead of tapping to click a button or select an item, you tap to hear a description of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. When an item on the screen is selected, a black rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. In addition to touching and dragging around the screen, you can also flick left and right to move the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or previous item on the screen­no matter how big or small it is. By flicking, you have precise control of what you hear even when it might otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen Entering Text When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. The Rotor Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were turning an actual dial ­ changes the way VoiceOver moves through a document based on a setting you choose. For example, a flick up or down might move through text word by word. But when you choose the “character” setting, each time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move through the text character by character ­ perfect when you’re proofreading or editing text. You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the names of common items, such as headers, links, tables, images, and more. You select a setting, then flick up and down to move to the previous or next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in between. Applications VoiceOver works with all of the built-in applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, you can place and receive calls, surf the web, text and email your friends, check your stocks and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is also working with iPhone software developers so they can make their applications VoiceOver compatible. Learn more Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi Voice Control In addition to gestures, you can use your voice to play music and make a phone call. Just press and hold the home button, listen for the audio prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. When you want to make a call, speak the name or telephone number of the person you want to call. iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. Learn more Zoom Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea While many iPhone applications let you zoom in and out specific elements such as images in Mail, or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you magnify the entire screen of any application you’re using to help you see what’s on the display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for yourself or someone else, or later, using the Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with applications you purchase from the App store. Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when zoomed, you can continue using all of the familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. White On Black For those who need or prefer higher contrast, iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the display to White On Black. This reverse video affect works in all applications including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. Speak Auto-text When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you finish typing it or a correction when a word is misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these suggestions so you can hear them when they’re presented. When zoomed, for example, the suggestion might not be visible on screen, but you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons Tactile Buttons iPhone includes a few, easily discernible physical buttons used to control the phone: the Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, located on the upper-left edge; and the Home button, centered below the display. Giant Fonts For Mail Messages For improved email readability, you can increase the default font size of email text from Medium (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable iPhone Stereo Headset iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a high-performance microphone built into the cable. Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone jack and the headset lets you control music playback and answer and end calls by clicking the built-in remote control button. Several add-on products are also available to work with iPhone that can help those with hearing disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible induction ear loop from TecEar, wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. Hands-Free Speakerphone Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both audible and visual alerts. You can activate alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also offers an audio option confirming keyboard clicks. You can even set incoming calls to display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio alert. Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones You can assign distinctive ringtones to individuals in your contacts list, using the ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap User Guide In Accessible HTML The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML format designed with accessibility in mind. You can read the guide using your favorite screen reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. Hearing From braille at nbpcb.org Tue Jun 9 02:14:33 2009 From: braille at nbpcb.org (Braille Certification) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:14:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NCLB Braille Exam Dates For 2009 Message-ID: The National Blindness Professional Certification Board would like to announce that the NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) will be held on the following dates and locations: Detroit, Michigan Detroit Marriott Renaissance Center Saturday & Sunday, July 4-5, 2009 1:00pm-5:00pm both days Orangeburg, New York Dominican College Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:00am-5:00pm Elkins Park, Pennsylvania Salus University Sunday, Aug. 9, 2009 8:00am-5:00pm Albuquerque, New Mexico Albuquerque Grand Airport Hotel Saturday, Sept. 26, 2009 8:00am-5:00pm A combined application/testing fee of $250 applies. For updates, application deadlines, and to apply online go to: www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements For additional information, please visit the NBPCB website at: www.nbpcb.org, or contact Louise Walch, NBPCB Coordinator, at (318) 257-4554 or braille at nbpcb.org. Louise G. Walch NBPCB Coordinator braille at nbpcb.org www.nbpcb.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Announcement NCLB 06-08-09.doc Type: application/msword Size: 35840 bytes Desc: not available URL: From len at gatamundo.com Tue Jun 9 02:24:14 2009 From: len at gatamundo.com (Len Burns) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:24:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <4A2DC7CE.80606@gatamundo.com> More of the usual ablist discrimination. The guy sounds very competent. If he chooses to travel alone, they have no place interfering with his well thought through decision. I hope to heck he wins. If he does not the precedent will be a bad one. -L Serena wrote: > I absolutely agree with you! I have a friend who's deaf-blind. Once he > gets older and is able to travel independently, I would never want him > to be denied the right to travel alone if he thinks he's able to do so! > Many deaf-blind people do use assistants they call "SSPs" (support > service providers) to assist them when necessary and, if hearing, > interpret for them. If the client in the case feels he doesn't need an > SSP, he certainly should be allowed to travel without one. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to > travel alone; Burnaby > > >> What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the >> right to >> choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is below. If I >> already >> sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. >> >> Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby >> athlete says he is capable >> >> Janice Tibbetts >> Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 >> >> In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the disabled, >> Air >> Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's contention that he >> should be >> allowed to fly without an attendant. >> >> The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby >> resident >> Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. >> >> Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his >> service >> dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he has made many >> past trips on planes, trains and buses. >> >> "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a >> Paralympic >> bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. >> >> "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot >> walk >> and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel >> unattended. Why >> not me?" >> >> Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human >> Rights >> Tribunal decision in January. >> >> The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel alone, >> but >> said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance rather than >> automatically ordered to bring an attendant. >> >> The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to >> accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the airline >> to >> pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not contesting the award. >> >> "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's spokesman >> Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the disabled >> passenger >> and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick cited the recent >> rescue >> of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River as an example of a >> successful >> and quick evacuation. >> >> The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when he >> unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San Francisco >> without being accompanied by an assistant. >> >> He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not >> have to >> shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada policy has >> recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free >> domestically, the >> concession does not apply to international travel. >> >> The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians said >> Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending its >> limited >> resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who wants to >> travel >> independently. >> >> "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes >> that >> a >> person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. Barring >> that, >> each case should be individually assessed, particularly since there are >> varying degrees of impairment, he said. >> >> Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, a >> condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his late >> 40s, >> he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely limited >> vision in >> his right eye. >> >> Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety >> procedures >> and would be able to find the emergency exits by following the lights >> along >> the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file cards containing such >> phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, please write on my palm in >> large >> block letters." >> >> He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of >> him, >> and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. >> >> The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal >> overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. >> >> Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian Transportation >> Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was justified in >> discriminating >> against Morten. >> >> >> Sarah Alawami >> msn: chellist at hotmail.com >> website: http://www.marrie.org >> twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 03:23:16 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:23:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blindman'srighttotravel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <02c801c9e8a0$68969440$9824c2cf@JenandNixon> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer><00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene><0244B09AF0684FA8B9D23228029C55C1@sacomputer> <02c801c9e8a0$68969440$9824c2cf@JenandNixon> Message-ID: I wonder whjy the airlines said he had no right to appeal if that is indeed what he did? Sorry I'm going from memmory. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jen&Nixon Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:20 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blindman'srighttotravel alone; Burnaby We have AEBC which used to be NFB:AE, but they changed their name, the NFB:AE is more specifically located in Vancouver, and not other provinces. I believe I have this information correct *grin* I know the man personally quoted in the article, and he is a fighter. It is quite a surprise as he has traveled around the world when he used to be a competitor in Judo and the paralympcs as well. I've traveled across Canada and US no problem, and I am deafblind myself, even Air Canada!!! Jennifer McEachen and "Nixon" Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc. Alumni Association Board of Directors and secretary jenandnixon at gmail.com / jmceachen at guidedogs.com -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Wassmer Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man'srighttotravel alone; Burnaby We might not be deaf and blind. But it could be only a mater of time before we become the next victims. We have fight the good fight. I don't know how The NFB of Canada will handel this one. horus Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's righttotravel alone; Burnaby >I agree 100 percent . I'm not deaf blind but if that were ever to >happen I would want to choose if I could do thing sby myself >especially travel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Serena > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 2:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right > totravel alone; Burnaby > > I absolutely agree with you! I have a friend who's deaf-blind. Once > he gets older and is able to travel independently, I would never want > him to be denied the right to travel alone if he thinks he's able to > do so! Many deaf-blind people do use assistants they call "SSPs" > (support service > providers) to assist them when necessary and, if hearing, interpret > for them. If the client in the case feels he doesn't need an SSP, he > certainly should be allowed to travel without one. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to > travel alone; Burnaby > > >> What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the >> right to choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is >> below. If I already sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. >> >> Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; >> Burnaby athlete says he is capable >> >> Janice Tibbetts >> Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 >> >> In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the >> disabled, Air Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's >> contention that he should be allowed to fly without an attendant. >> >> The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby >> resident Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. >> >> Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his >> service dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he >> has made many past trips on planes, trains and buses. >> >> "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a >> Paralympic bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. >> >> "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot >> walk and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel > unattended. >> Why >> not me?" >> >> Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human >> Rights Tribunal decision in January. >> >> The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel >> alone, but said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance >> rather than automatically ordered to bring an attendant. >> >> The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to >> accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the >> airline to pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not >> contesting the award. >> >> "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's >> spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the >> disabled passenger and other passengers on the aircraft." >> Fitzpatrick cited the recent rescue of US Airways passengers in the >> Hudson River as an example of a successful and quick evacuation. >> >> The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when >> he unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San >> Francisco without being accompanied by an assistant. >> >> He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not >> have to shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada >> policy has recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free >> domestically, the concession does not apply to international travel. >> >> The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians >> said Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending >> its limited resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man >> who wants to travel independently. >> >> "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes >> that a person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. >> Barring that, each case should be individually assessed, >> particularly since there are varying degrees of impairment, he said. >> >> Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's >> Syndrome, a condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. >> Now in his late 40s, he is completely blind in his left eye and has >> severely limited vision in his right eye. >> >> Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety >> procedures and would be able to find the emergency exits by >> following the lights along the aisle. He also travels with >> pre-printed file cards containing such phrases as "I am deaf/blind, >> to talk to me, please write on my palm in large block letters." >> >> He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of >> him, and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. >> >> The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal >> overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. >> >> Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian >> Transportation Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was >> justified in discriminating against Morten. >> >> >> Sarah Alawami >> msn: chellist at hotmail.com >> website: http://www.marrie.org >> twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%4 >> 0 >> verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy > 2003%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jenandnixon%40gmail. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From brsmith24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 04:56:46 2009 From: brsmith24 at hotmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:56:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm happy with my N82. I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just a popular craze. I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less popular but more feature-filled products. But this ... For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. Brice > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 > To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > From: dandrews at visi.com > Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > > > Vision > > The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally > revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative > accessibility features that make it easier to use > for those with impaired vision. > > > VoiceOver > > iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp > > > > The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on > the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone > 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen > reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and > simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. > > What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable > is that you control it using simple gestures that > let you physically interact with items on screen. > It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of > memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or > endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what > you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply > touch the screen to hear a description of the > item under your finger, then gesture with a > double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. > > VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any > screen reader you've ever used before. > Traditional screen readers describe individual > elements on the screen, but struggle to > communicate where each element is located or > provide information about adjoining objects. This > contextual information is very important but > typically filtered out by other screen readers. > For example, “off-screen” models used by > traditional screen readers to represent > applications and web pages intentionally strip > away contextual information and describe web > pages as a list or menu of items. But with > VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. > > Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s > touchscreen, you interact directly with objects > on the screen and can naturally understand their > location and context. So, when you touch the > upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear > what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, > and as you drag your finger around the screen, > you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing > new sense of context and relationship between the > items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone > will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true > sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. > > You'll hear descriptions of every item on the > screen, including status information such as > battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal > levels, the cellular network provider, and time > of day. It even lets you know when the display > changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and > when the screen is locked or unlocked. > > The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it > to a speed that best suits your listening > ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects > to alert you when an application opens, when the > screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, > and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the > volume of background sounds and music are > automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, > so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. > > > It speaks your language > > VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 > languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese > (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), > English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French > (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, > Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), > Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. > > > Getting started > > VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. > There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All > you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, > and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and > enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using > iTunes with a compatible screen reader like > VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro > Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista > (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using > iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to > start using it right away. Sighted users can also > enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using > the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. > > > How it works > > With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, > but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. > For example, instead of tapping to click a button > or select an item, you tap to hear a description > of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. > > When an item on the screen is selected, a black > rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears > around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for > the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be > sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, > VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns > off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. > > In addition to touching and dragging around the > screen, you can also flick left and right to move > the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or > previous item on the screen­no matter how big or > small it is. By flicking, you have precise > control of what you hear even when it might > otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. > Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen > > > Entering Text > > When you’re typing text, such as an email message > or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the > keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm > when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver > speak each completed word instead of and in > addition to individual characters as you type > them. A flick up or down while typing moves the > insertion point cursor left and right within the > text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. > Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb > > > To help you type more quickly and accurately, > iPhone features word prediction and suggests the > correct spelling when you type a word > incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll > hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken > automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore > it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. > > > The Rotor > > Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a > > > > VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual > control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by > rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were > turning an actual dial ­ changes the way > VoiceOver moves through a document based on a > setting you choose. For example, a flick up or > down might move through text word by word. But > when you choose the “character” setting, each > time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move > through the text character by character ­ perfect > when you’re proofreading or editing text. > > You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. > When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the > names of common items, such as headers, links, > tables, images, and more. You select a setting, > then flick up and down to move to the previous or > next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in between. > > > Applications > > VoiceOver works with all of the built-in > applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as > Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, > you can place and receive calls, surf the web, > text and email your friends, check your stocks > and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is > also working with iPhone software developers so > they can make their applications VoiceOver > compatible. > Learn more > Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi > > > Voice Control > > In addition to gestures, you can use your voice > to play music and make a phone call. Just press > and hold the home button, listen for the audio > prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, > or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, > play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. > > When you want to make a call, speak the name or > telephone number of the person you want to call. > iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. > Learn > more > > > Zoom > > Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea > > > > While many iPhone applications let you zoom in > and out specific elements such as images in Mail, > or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you > magnify the entire screen of any application > you’re using to help you see what’s on the > display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using > iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for > yourself or someone else, or later, using the > Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. > > Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, > Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with > applications you purchase from the App store. > Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc > > > A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly > zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and > drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the > magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when > zoomed, you can continue using all of the > familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone > gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom > can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. > > > White On Black > > For those who need or prefer higher contrast, > iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the > display to White On Black. This reverse video > affect works in all applications including the > Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. > > > Speak Auto-text > > When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you > finish typing it or a correction when a word is > misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these > suggestions so you can hear them when they’re > presented. When zoomed, for example, the > suggestion might not be visible on screen, but > you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If > you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to > interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to > hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when > you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. > Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons > > > Tactile Buttons > > iPhone includes a few, easily discernible > physical buttons used to control the phone: the > Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the > Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, > located on the upper-left edge; and the Home > button, centered below the display. > > > Giant Fonts For Mail Messages > > For improved email readability, you can increase > the default font size of email text from Medium > (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. > iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable > > > iPhone Stereo Headset > > iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a > high-performance microphone built into the cable. > Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone > jack and the headset lets you control music > playback and answer and end calls by clicking the > built-in remote control button. > > Several add-on products are also available to > work with iPhone that can help those with hearing > disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible > induction ear loop from > TecEar, > wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. > > > Hands-Free Speakerphone > > Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in > speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to > Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. > > > Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts > > Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both > audible and visual alerts. You can activate > alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming > and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also > offers an audio option confirming keyboard > clicks. You can even set incoming calls to > display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. > > In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of > playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a > notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio alert. > > > Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones > > You can assign distinctive ringtones to > individuals in your contacts list, using the > ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the > iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download > additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). > A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap > > > User Guide In Accessible HTML > > The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML > format designed with accessibility in mind. You > can read the guide using your favorite screen > reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and > using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. > Hearing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 06:37:54 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:37:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] facebook mobile In-Reply-To: <8D7372324F6F47E7847BC5F8F4FDC01C@Athena> References: <8D7372324F6F47E7847BC5F8F4FDC01C@Athena> Message-ID: I'm still playing with it but I am loving it to. Now let's hope they don't change. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Patricia Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:27 PM To: nabs Subject: Re: [nabs-l] facebook mobile Serena, I've just started using it too and love it as well!!! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From jbahm at pcdesk.net Tue Jun 9 08:02:41 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:02:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <4A2DC7CE.80606@gatamundo.com> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> <4A2DC7CE.80606@gatamundo.com> Message-ID: <4A2E1721.1050906@pcdesk.net> A friend of mine originally sent me this artical, and I replied to him with my thoughts. I've copied them in this message. I certainly hope that the deaf-blind person wins as well. While I can understand the airline's concern in some cases (someone who obviously can't take care of themselves or someone with a severe mental disability), allowing them to make asesments as to the ability of a person to travel independently sets a dangerous precedent. If they are allowed to arbitrarily decide that a deaf-blind person can't travel independently, then how long do you think it would be before they decided that about blind people? Or deaf people? Or the elderly? Or any other group that some ignorant and completely unqualified airline staff person thought was unable to travel alone? I also contend that there are able-bodied people that are allowed to travel alone, but who might have trouble in an evacuation for other reasons. Take a mother with three very young children for example. By young, I mean young enough they wouldn't be able to understand and follow safety procedures on their own. Let's say there was an emergency situation in which immediate evacuation was required. There is a good chance that the mother would be determined to evacuate the children before evacuating herself. There's nothing wrong with that as far as ethics go. However, there is the potential that her doing that would cause a disruption in the evacuation and may endanger other passengers. Do we say she's not allowed to fly too? Joe From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Jun 9 08:37:28 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind Message-ID: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on those who innovate, can we? Respectfully Submitted Original message: > I'm happy with my N82. > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just > a popular craze. > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less > popular but more feature-filled products. > But this ... > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. > Brice >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> From: dandrews at visi.com >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> Vision >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >> for those with impaired vision. >> VoiceOver >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >> screen reader you've ever used before. >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >> communicate where each element is located or >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >> contextual information is very important but >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >> traditional screen readers to represent >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >> away contextual information and describe web >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >> location and context. So, when you touch the >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >> new sense of context and relationship between the >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >> screen, including status information such as >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >> to a speed that best suits your listening >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >> volume of background sounds and music are >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >> It speaks your language >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >> Getting started >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >> How it works >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >> control of what you hear even when it might >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >> Entering Text >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >> speak each completed word instead of and in >> addition to individual characters as you type >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >> correct spelling when you type a word >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >> The Rotor >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >> down might move through text word by word. But >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >> through the text character by character ­ perfect >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in between. >> Applications >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >> also working with iPhone software developers so >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >> compatible. >> Learn more >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >> Voice Control >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >> Learn >> more >> Zoom >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >> magnify the entire screen of any application >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with >> applications you purchase from the App store. >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. >> White On Black >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >> affect works in all applications including the >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >> Speak Auto-text >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >> Tactile Buttons >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >> button, centered below the display. >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >> For improved email readability, you can increase >> the default font size of email text from Medium >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >> iPhone Stereo Headset >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >> jack and the headset lets you control music >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >> built-in remote control button. >> Several add-on products are also available to >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >> induction ear loop from >> TecEar, >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio alert. >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >> Hearing >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com > _________________________________________________________________ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 12:54:54 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:54:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <4A2E1721.1050906@pcdesk.net> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> <4A2DC7CE.80606@gatamundo.com> <4A2E1721.1050906@pcdesk.net> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906090554o22d70059h64b67a3a75933674@mail.gmail.com> Good point, Joe. Before you know it, nobody will be able to travel alone. It scks. Beth On 6/9/09, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: > A friend of mine originally sent me this artical, and I replied to him > with my thoughts. I've copied them in this message. > > I certainly hope that the deaf-blind person wins as well. While I can > understand the airline's concern in some cases (someone who obviously > can't take care of themselves or someone with a severe mental > disability), allowing them to make asesments as to the ability of a > person to travel independently sets a dangerous precedent. If they are > allowed to arbitrarily decide that a deaf-blind person can't travel > independently, then how long do you think it would be before they > decided that about blind people? Or deaf people? Or the elderly? Or any > other group that some ignorant and completely unqualified airline staff > person thought was unable to travel alone? > I also contend that there are able-bodied people that are allowed to > travel alone, but who might have trouble in an evacuation for other > reasons. Take a mother with three very young children for example. By > young, I mean young enough they wouldn't be able to understand and > follow safety procedures on their own. Let's say there was an emergency > situation in which immediate evacuation was required. There is a good > chance that the mother would be determined to evacuate the children > before evacuating herself. There's nothing wrong with that as far as > ethics go. However, there is the potential that her doing that would > cause a disruption in the evacuation and may endanger other passengers. > Do we say she's not allowed to fly too? > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From freedmas at stolaf.edu Tue Jun 9 13:27:14 2009 From: freedmas at stolaf.edu (Sydney Walker Freedman) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:27:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: <922c02e40906090627l169a5b6fnd1ec3d850e9425c7@mail.gmail.com> I'm curious as to how sensitive the touch screen is. I once used someone's accessible Ipod touch (I think that's what it was), and the tiniest accidental movement registered, causing to do all sorts of things with volume, menus, etc. I One could get used to such a problem and gain the right touch for it, but might that be difficult, especially with various types of gestures? I'm itching to try one out to see how well the touch screen works? Anyone have any feedback? Thanks! Sydney On 6/9/09, Jedi wrote: > Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it > sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the > touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this > software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen > products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that > require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our > own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer > electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on > those who innovate, can we? > > Respectfully Submitted > > > Original message: > >> I'm happy with my N82. > > > >> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. > > >> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the >> only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine >> for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just >> a popular craze. > > > >> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less >> popular but more feature-filled products. > > > >> But this ... > > > >> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press >> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. > >> Brice >>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > > >>> Vision > >>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >>> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >>> accessibility features that make it easier to use >>> for those with impaired vision. > > >>> VoiceOver > >>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp > > > >>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >>> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >>> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >>> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. > >>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >>> is that you control it using simple gestures that >>> let you physically interact with items on screen. >>> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >>> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >>> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >>> touch the screen to hear a description of the >>> item under your finger, then gesture with a >>> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. > >>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >>> screen reader you've ever used before. >>> Traditional screen readers describe individual >>> elements on the screen, but struggle to >>> communicate where each element is located or >>> provide information about adjoining objects. This >>> contextual information is very important but >>> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >>> For example, “off-screen” models used by >>> traditional screen readers to represent >>> applications and web pages intentionally strip >>> away contextual information and describe web >>> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >>> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. > >>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >>> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >>> on the screen and can naturally understand their >>> location and context. So, when you touch the >>> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >>> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >>> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >>> new sense of context and relationship between the >>> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >>> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >>> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they >>> are. > >>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >>> screen, including status information such as >>> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >>> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >>> of day. It even lets you know when the display >>> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >>> when the screen is locked or unlocked. > >>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >>> to a speed that best suits your listening >>> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >>> to alert you when an application opens, when the >>> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >>> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >>> volume of background sounds and music are >>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >>> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. > > >>> It speaks your language > >>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >>> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >>> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >>> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >>> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >>> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and >>> Swedish. > > >>> Getting started > >>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >>> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >>> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >>> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >>> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >>> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >>> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >>> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >>> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >>> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >>> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. > > >>> How it works > >>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >>> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >>> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >>> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >>> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. > >>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >>> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >>> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >>> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >>> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >>> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. > >>> In addition to touching and dragging around the >>> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >>> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >>> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or >>> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >>> control of what you hear even when it might >>> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen > > >>> Entering Text > >>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >>> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >>> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >>> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>> speak each completed word instead of and in >>> addition to individual characters as you type >>> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >>> insertion point cursor left and right within the >>> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new >>> word. >>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb > > >>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >>> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >>> correct spelling when you type a word >>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >>> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >>> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >>> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. > > >>> The Rotor > >>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a > > > >>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >>> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by >>> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >>> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way >>> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >>> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >>> down might move through text word by word. But >>> when you choose the “character” setting, each >>> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >>> through the text character by character ­ perfect >>> when you’re proofreading or editing text. > >>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >>> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >>> names of common items, such as headers, links, >>> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >>> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in between. > > >>> Applications > >>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >>> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >>> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >>> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >>> text and email your friends, check your stocks >>> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >>> also working with iPhone software developers so >>> they can make their applications VoiceOver >>> compatible. >>> Learn >>> more >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi > > >>> Voice Control > >>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >>> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >>> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >>> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >>> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >>> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. > >>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >>> telephone number of the person you want to call. >>> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >>> Learn >>> more > > >>> Zoom > >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea > > > >>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >>> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >>> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >>> magnify the entire screen of any application >>> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >>> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >>> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >>> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >>> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. > >>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >>> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with >>> applications you purchase from the App store. >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc > > >>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >>> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >>> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >>> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >>> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >>> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >>> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >>> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. > > >>> White On Black > >>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >>> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >>> display to White On Black. This reverse video >>> affect works in all applications including the >>> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >>> VoiceOver. > > >>> Speak Auto-text > >>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >>> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >>> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >>> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >>> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >>> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >>> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >>> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >>> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons > > >>> Tactile Buttons > >>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >>> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >>> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >>> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >>> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >>> button, centered below the display. > > >>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages > >>> For improved email readability, you can increase >>> the default font size of email text from Medium >>> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable > > >>> iPhone Stereo Headset > >>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >>> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >>> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >>> jack and the headset lets you control music >>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >>> built-in remote control button. > >>> Several add-on products are also available to >>> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >>> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >>> induction ear loop from >>> TecEar, >>> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. > > >>> Hands-Free Speakerphone > >>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >>> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >>> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. > > >>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts > >>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >>> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >>> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >>> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >>> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >>> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >>> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. > >>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >>> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >>> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio alert. > > >>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones > >>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >>> individuals in your contacts list, using the >>> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >>> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >>> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap > > >>> User Guide In Accessible HTML > >>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >>> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >>> can read the guide using your favorite screen >>> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>> Hearing > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freedmas%40stolaf.edu > From brsmith24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:17:07 2009 From: brsmith24 at hotmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:17:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: I agree with you. that's why I said: "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." Just saying. Brice > From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it > sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the > touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this > software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen > products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that > require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our > own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer > electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on > those who innovate, can we? > > Respectfully Submitted > > > Original message: > > > I'm happy with my N82. > > > > > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. > > > > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the > > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or > > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine > > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just > > a popular craze. > > > > > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less > > popular but more feature-filled products. > > > > > But this ... > > > > > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press > > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. > > > Brice > >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 > >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > >> From: dandrews at visi.com > >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > > > >> Vision > > >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally > >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative > >> accessibility features that make it easier to use > >> for those with impaired vision. > > > >> VoiceOver > > >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp > > > > >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on > >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone > >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen > >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and > >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. > > >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable > >> is that you control it using simple gestures that > >> let you physically interact with items on screen. > >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of > >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or > >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what > >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply > >> touch the screen to hear a description of the > >> item under your finger, then gesture with a > >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. > > >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any > >> screen reader you've ever used before. > >> Traditional screen readers describe individual > >> elements on the screen, but struggle to > >> communicate where each element is located or > >> provide information about adjoining objects. This > >> contextual information is very important but > >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. > >> For example, “off-screen” models used by > >> traditional screen readers to represent > >> applications and web pages intentionally strip > >> away contextual information and describe web > >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with > >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. > > >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s > >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects > >> on the screen and can naturally understand their > >> location and context. So, when you touch the > >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear > >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, > >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, > >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing > >> new sense of context and relationship between the > >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone > >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true > >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. > > >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the > >> screen, including status information such as > >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal > >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time > >> of day. It even lets you know when the display > >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and > >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. > > >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it > >> to a speed that best suits your listening > >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects > >> to alert you when an application opens, when the > >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, > >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the > >> volume of background sounds and music are > >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, > >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. > > > >> It speaks your language > > >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 > >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese > >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), > >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French > >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, > >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), > >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. > > > >> Getting started > > >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. > >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All > >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, > >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and > >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using > >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like > >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro > >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista > >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using > >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to > >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also > >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using > >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. > > > >> How it works > > >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, > >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. > >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button > >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description > >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. > > >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black > >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears > >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for > >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be > >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, > >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns > >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. > > >> In addition to touching and dragging around the > >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move > >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or > >> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or > >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise > >> control of what you hear even when it might > >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. > >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen > > > >> Entering Text > > >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message > >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the > >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm > >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver > >> speak each completed word instead of and in > >> addition to individual characters as you type > >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the > >> insertion point cursor left and right within the > >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. > >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb > > > >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, > >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the > >> correct spelling when you type a word > >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll > >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken > >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore > >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. > > > >> The Rotor > > >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a > > > > >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual > >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by > >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were > >> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way > >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a > >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or > >> down might move through text word by word. But > >> when you choose the “character” setting, each > >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move > >> through the text character by character ­ perfect > >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. > > >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. > >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the > >> names of common items, such as headers, links, > >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, > >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or > >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in between. > > > >> Applications > > >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in > >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as > >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, > >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, > >> text and email your friends, check your stocks > >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is > >> also working with iPhone software developers so > >> they can make their applications VoiceOver > >> compatible. > >> Learn more > >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi > > > >> Voice Control > > >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice > >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press > >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio > >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, > >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, > >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. > > >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or > >> telephone number of the person you want to call. > >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. > >> Learn > >> more > > > >> Zoom > > >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea > > > > >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in > >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, > >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you > >> magnify the entire screen of any application > >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the > >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using > >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for > >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the > >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. > > >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, > >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with > >> applications you purchase from the App store. > >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc > > > >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly > >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and > >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the > >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when > >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the > >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone > >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom > >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. > > > >> White On Black > > >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, > >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the > >> display to White On Black. This reverse video > >> affect works in all applications including the > >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. > > > >> Speak Auto-text > > >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you > >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is > >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these > >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re > >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the > >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but > >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If > >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to > >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to > >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when > >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. > >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons > > > >> Tactile Buttons > > >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible > >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the > >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the > >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, > >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home > >> button, centered below the display. > > > >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages > > >> For improved email readability, you can increase > >> the default font size of email text from Medium > >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. > >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable > > > >> iPhone Stereo Headset > > >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a > >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. > >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone > >> jack and the headset lets you control music > >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the > >> built-in remote control button. > > >> Several add-on products are also available to > >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing > >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible > >> induction ear loop from > >> TecEar, > >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. > > > >> Hands-Free Speakerphone > > >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in > >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to > >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. > > > >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts > > >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both > >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate > >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming > >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also > >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard > >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to > >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. > > >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of > >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a > >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio alert. > > > >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones > > >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to > >> individuals in your contacts list, using the > >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the > >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download > >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). > >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap > > > >> User Guide In Accessible HTML > > >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML > >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You > >> can read the guide using your favorite screen > >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and > >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. > >> Hearing > > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:39:40 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:39:40 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: > > I agree with you. that's why I said: > > "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." > > Just saying. > > > > Brice >> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that >> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our >> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer >> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on >> those who innovate, can we? >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> >> Original message: >> >> > I'm happy with my N82. >> >> >> >> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >> >> >> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the >> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine >> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just >> > a popular craze. >> >> >> >> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less >> > popular but more feature-filled products. >> >> >> >> > But this ... >> >> >> >> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press >> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >> >> > Brice >> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> >> >> >> Vision >> >> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >> >> for those with impaired vision. >> >> >> >> VoiceOver >> >> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >> >> >> >> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >> >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >> >> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >> >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >> >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >> >> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >> >> communicate where each element is located or >> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >> >> contextual information is very important but >> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >> >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >> >> traditional screen readers to represent >> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >> >> away contextual information and describe web >> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >> >> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >> >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >> >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what >> >> they are. >> >> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >> >> screen, including status information such as >> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >> >> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >> >> volume of background sounds and music are >> >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >> >> >> >> It speaks your language >> >> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and >> >> Swedish. >> >> >> >> Getting started >> >> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >> >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >> >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >> >> >> >> How it works >> >> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >> >> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >> >> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >> >> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or >> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >> >> control of what you hear even when it might >> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >> >> >> >> Entering Text >> >> >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >> >> addition to individual characters as you type >> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a >> >> new word. >> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >> >> >> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >> >> correct spelling when you type a word >> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >> >> >> >> The Rotor >> >> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >> >> >> >> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >> >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by >> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >> >> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way >> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >> >> down might move through text word by word. But >> >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >> >> through the text character by character ­ perfect >> >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >> >> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >> >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >> >> between. >> >> >> >> Applications >> >> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >> >> compatible. >> >> Learn >> >> more >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >> >> >> >> Voice Control >> >> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >> >> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >> >> Learn >> >> more >> >> >> >> Zoom >> >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >> >> >> >> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >> >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >> >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >> >> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with >> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >> >> >> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >> >> auto-text. >> >> >> >> White On Black >> >> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >> >> affect works in all applications including the >> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >> >> VoiceOver. >> >> >> >> Speak Auto-text >> >> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >> >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >> >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >> >> >> >> Tactile Buttons >> >> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >> >> button, centered below the display. >> >> >> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >> >> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >> >> >> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >> >> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >> >> built-in remote control button. >> >> >> Several add-on products are also available to >> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >> >> induction ear loop from >> >> TecEar, >> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. >> >> >> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >> >> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >> >> >> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >> >> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >> >> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio alert. >> >> >> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >> >> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >> >> >> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >> >> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >> >> Hearing >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com > -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Jun 9 15:00:06 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:00:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <20090609110006.nzdmf506asoco8g0@webmail.utoronto.ca> If he had known problems travelling alone that would be one thing, but he sounds pretty competent. So I agree with Sarina and have no idea what Air Canada thinks it's doing. If only West Jet flew to more places; I've heard good things about them and accessibility. I hope this gets worked out soon. Sarah Quoting Serena : > I absolutely agree with you! I have a friend who's deaf-blind. Once > he gets older and is able to travel independently, I would never want > him to be denied the right to travel alone if he thinks he's able to do > so! Many deaf-blind people do use assistants they call "SSPs" (support > service providers) to assist them when necessary and, if hearing, > interpret for them. If the client in the case feels he doesn't need an > SSP, he certainly should be allowed to travel without one. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:12 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to > travel alone; Burnaby > > >> What do you all think of this? I think personally that he has the right to >> choose weather he can travel unassisted. The article is below. If I already >> sent this, my apoligies for the duplicate. >> >> Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby >> athlete says he is capable >> >> Janice Tibbetts >> Vancouver Sun, Apr. 7, 2009 >> >> In a case that balances passenger safety and the rights of the disabled, >> Air >> Canada is challenging a deaf and blind man's contention that he should be >> allowed to fly without an attendant. >> >> The airline will argue in Federal Court that not allowing Burnaby resident >> Eddy Morten to fly alone is justified discrimination. >> >> Morten counters that he has a system for safe air travel with his service >> dog, he has been self-sufficient all his life, and that he has made many >> past trips on planes, trains and buses. >> >> "I have never needed a babysitter," Morten, a father of two and a >> Paralympic >> bronze medallist in judo, wrote in an e-mail. >> >> "Air Canada routinely allows people who are blind, people who cannot walk >> and people who may be very disabled due to aging to travel unattended. Why >> not me?" >> >> Air Canada is fighting Morten in court after losing a Canadian Human >> Rights >> Tribunal decision in January. >> >> The tribunal did not order the airline to allow Morten to travel alone, >> but >> said he had the right to be assessed for self-reliance rather than >> automatically ordered to bring an attendant. >> >> The tribunal, ruling that Air Canada had not met its obligation to >> accommodate Morten to the point of "undue hardship," ordered the airline >> to >> pay Morten $10,000 in damages. Air Canada is not contesting the award. >> >> "It's the principle we're concerned about," said the airline's spokesman >> Peter Fitzpatrick. "It comes down to the safety of the disabled passenger >> and other passengers on the aircraft." Fitzpatrick cited the recent rescue >> of US Airways passengers in the Hudson River as an example of a successful >> and quick evacuation. >> >> The dispute between Air Canada and Morten began five years ago, when he >> unsuccessfully tried to book a flight from Vancouver to San Francisco >> without being accompanied by an assistant. >> >> He says he was "disempowered" by the rebuff and that he should not have to >> shoulder the cost of hiring an attendant. While Air Canada policy has >> recently changed to permit attendants to travel for free domestically, the >> concession does not apply to international travel. >> >> The vice-president of the Alliance of Equality for Blind Canadians said >> Monday that financially strapped Air Canada should be spending its limited >> resources more wisely than on fighting a disabled man who wants to travel >> independently. >> >> "There should be no blanket exclusions," said John Rae, who believes that >> a >> person's declaration they are self-reliant should be enough. Barring that, >> each case should be individually assessed, particularly since there are >> varying degrees of impairment, he said. >> >> Morten, who was born deaf but with good vision, has Usher's Syndrome, a >> condition that caused him to gradually lose his sight. Now in his late >> 40s, >> he is completely blind in his left eye and has severely limited vision in >> his right eye. >> >> Morten testified before the tribunal that he knows airline safety >> procedures >> and would be able to find the emergency exits by following the lights >> along >> the aisle. He also travels with pre-printed file cards containing such >> phrases as "I am deaf/blind, to talk to me, please write on my palm in >> large >> block letters." >> >> He also says that he could see an oxygen mask if it fell in front of him, >> and knows how to use a life vest if necessary. >> >> The airline will also argue in court that the human rights tribunal >> overstepped its jurisdiction when it ruled on the case. >> >> Air Canada said the proper body to decide is the Canadian Transportation >> Agency, which ruled in 2005 that the airline was justified in >> discriminating >> against Morten. >> >> >> Sarah Alawami >> msn: chellist at hotmail.com >> website: http://www.marrie.org >> twitter: http://twitter.com/marrie1 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 16:46:52 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:46:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "alena roberts" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: > > I agree with you. that's why I said: > > "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." > > Just saying. > > > > Brice >> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that >> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our >> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer >> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on >> those who innovate, can we? >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> >> Original message: >> >> > I'm happy with my N82. >> >> >> >> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >> >> >> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the >> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine >> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just >> > a popular craze. >> >> >> >> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less >> > popular but more feature-filled products. >> >> >> >> > But this ... >> >> >> >> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press >> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >> >> > Brice >> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> >> >> >> Vision >> >> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >> >> for those with impaired vision. >> >> >> >> VoiceOver >> >> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >> >> >> >> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >> >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >> >> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >> >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >> >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >> >> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >> >> communicate where each element is located or >> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >> >> contextual information is very important but >> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >> >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >> >> traditional screen readers to represent >> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >> >> away contextual information and describe web >> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >> >> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >> >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >> >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what >> >> they are. >> >> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >> >> screen, including status information such as >> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >> >> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >> >> volume of background sounds and music are >> >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >> >> >> >> It speaks your language >> >> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and >> >> Swedish. >> >> >> >> Getting started >> >> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >> >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >> >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >> >> >> >> How it works >> >> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >> >> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >> >> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >> >> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or >> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >> >> control of what you hear even when it might >> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >> >> >> >> Entering Text >> >> >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >> >> addition to individual characters as you type >> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a >> >> new word. >> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >> >> >> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >> >> correct spelling when you type a word >> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >> >> >> >> The Rotor >> >> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >> >> >> >> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >> >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by >> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >> >> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way >> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >> >> down might move through text word by word. But >> >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >> >> through the text character by character ­ perfect >> >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >> >> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >> >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >> >> between. >> >> >> >> Applications >> >> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >> >> compatible. >> >> Learn >> >> more >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >> >> >> >> Voice Control >> >> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >> >> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >> >> Learn >> >> more >> >> >> >> Zoom >> >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >> >> >> >> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >> >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >> >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >> >> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with >> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >> >> >> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >> >> auto-text. >> >> >> >> White On Black >> >> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >> >> affect works in all applications including the >> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >> >> VoiceOver. >> >> >> >> Speak Auto-text >> >> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >> >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >> >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >> >> >> >> Tactile Buttons >> >> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >> >> button, centered below the display. >> >> >> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >> >> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >> >> >> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >> >> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >> >> built-in remote control button. >> >> >> Several add-on products are also available to >> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >> >> induction ear loop from >> >> TecEar, >> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. >> >> >> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >> >> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >> >> >> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >> >> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >> >> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio >> >> alert. >> >> >> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >> >> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >> >> >> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >> >> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >> >> Hearing >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com > -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com From Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com Tue Jun 9 17:15:26 2009 From: Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com (Rachel Becker) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:15:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] math textbook question Message-ID: What do you do when you have to take a math class and can't find the textbook in Braille? I searched the APH Louis database for the book but it's not there. One source said that it will cost $6000 to get the chapters that I need Brailled. The state agency suggested that I use a reader. Do you think that using a reader would be a good solution for working with diagrams? Do you have any sugestions for dealing with a situation like this? Thanks. Rachel From jbahm at pcdesk.net Tue Jun 9 18:09:32 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:09:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travel alone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0906090554o22d70059h64b67a3a75933674@mail.gmail.com> References: <9BFE6F287C9E46FCAC20CBFC6E10FD89@sacomputer> <00ad01c9e881$8c294570$0401a8c0@Serene> <4A2DC7CE.80606@gatamundo.com> <4A2E1721.1050906@pcdesk.net> <4383d01d0906090554o22d70059h64b67a3a75933674@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2EA55C.4010400@pcdesk.net> You know, I've noticed something. In the US, the airlines seem to think they can get away with stuff that we'd never dream of letting other industries get away with. I think that's probably because in a lot of ways a different set of rules applies to them. I understand to an extent, safety and security are important and so certain rules have to be observed. But it seems the airlines can get away with a lot of crap that has nothing to do with safety or security, but they site one or the other as their reason for what ever it is they're wanting to do. As far as I'm concerned, this is yet another example of that. As far as I know, the person or persons that made this determination had no qualifications what so ever to make such a determination. But that's the thing. Any airline official can claim something is a safety or security issue, and it's taken to be fact, at least in the short term. Even if it's a ticket agent or someone like that who wouldn't have any real idea what would be such an issue. Joe From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:26:00 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:26:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090609182600.GA464@yumi.bluecherry.net> Brice, So, I think I'm hearing you say that you've been an anti-apple-snob and they finally came out with a device that even you think sounds really cool? *grin* Honestly, Apple and the hardcore Apple fan base really kind of ask for it sometimes, I freely admit. But what has me excited about the iPhone 3GS is not that it has a screen reader, but that it has the screen reader built-in to a device that sells for $199 with contract. Of course, AT&T will make you pay for their data plan with the phone and I'm not even remotely sure how useful the data plan would be to a blind user since I don't see how the iPhone 3GS handles text entry without a tactile keyboard. But if Apple's got that figured out, it's a $200 smart phone, accessible out of the box. That's something to get excited about. Now put a real camera in the thing Apple, so we can have iKNFB Reader. *grin* Joseph On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:56:46AM -0400, Brice Smith wrote: > >I'm happy with my N82. > > > >I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. > > >I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just a popular craze. > > > >I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less popular but more feature-filled products. > > > >But this ... > > > >For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. > >Brice >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> From: dandrews at visi.com >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> >> >> Vision >> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >> for those with impaired vision. >> >> >> VoiceOver >> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >> >> >> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >> screen reader you've ever used before. >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >> communicate where each element is located or >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >> contextual information is very important but >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >> traditional screen readers to represent >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >> away contextual information and describe web >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >> location and context. So, when you touch the >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >> new sense of context and relationship between the >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. >> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >> screen, including status information such as >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >> to a speed that best suits your listening >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >> volume of background sounds and music are >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >> >> >> It speaks your language >> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >> >> >> Getting started >> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >> >> >> How it works >> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >> control of what you hear even when it might >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >> >> >> Entering Text >> >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >> speak each completed word instead of and in >> addition to individual characters as you type >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >> >> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >> correct spelling when you type a word >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >> >> >> The Rotor >> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >> >> >> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >> down might move through text word by word. But >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >> through the text character by character ­ perfect >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in between. >> >> >> Applications >> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >> also working with iPhone software developers so >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >> compatible. >> Learn more >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >> >> >> Voice Control >> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >> Learn >> more >> >> >> Zoom >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >> >> >> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >> magnify the entire screen of any application >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with >> applications you purchase from the App store. >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >> >> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. >> >> >> White On Black >> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >> affect works in all applications including the >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >> >> >> Speak Auto-text >> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >> >> >> Tactile Buttons >> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >> button, centered below the display. >> >> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >> the default font size of email text from Medium >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >> >> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >> jack and the headset lets you control music >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >> built-in remote control button. >> >> Several add-on products are also available to >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >> induction ear loop from >> TecEar, >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. >> >> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >> >> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio alert. >> >> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >> >> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >> Hearing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com > >_________________________________________________________________ >Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From mworkman at ualberta.ca Tue Jun 9 18:28:41 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:28:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada In-Reply-To: <20090609110006.nzdmf506asoco8g0@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would pass on an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news letter, which came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news story, but it is pretty informative, and I think most of you will be pleased by the outcome. Marc Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind Passengers Discriminatory By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal [The Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten who is deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he cover the costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal found that this blanket decision did not allow for individual assessments of disabled travelers and it had a discriminatory impact on Mr. Morten as a person with a disability. At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he travels independently around the city where he lives. He is accompanied by his guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods that he uses to communicate when travelling. For quick communication such as asking for directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell the words in block letters on his palm. He indicated that people have no trouble understanding very quickly how to communicate with him. Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has a large button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of travelling on public transit. If a transit employee approached him to ask if he needed help, the transit employee would tap him on the shoulder and put Mr. Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could identify the person as a transit employee. He would let the person know that he is not lost by writing O K on a hand. If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten writes out the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the amount of the fare by drawing the number on his palm. When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that he was deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. Morten's disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an attendant to fly with him and he would be required to pay the cost of the attendant. The Air Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation attendant's decision. The Meda desk is part of Air Canada's reservations department. The practice that is to be followed when a person making a reservation indicates that they are a person with a disability who may require some accommodations while flying is that the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and from his or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may need while flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not medically trained. The medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational Health Services department who review the medical information and determine whether the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without conditions. The Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed physicians, occupational health nurses and medical officer assistants. The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person would be self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of passenger's ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability to make his or her need for assistance known and the ability of the passenger to move from his or her seat should that be necessary in an emergency. An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person with a disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine whether an individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. The Air Canada witness said that if the individual was not able to see or hear the cabin crew to receive information about safety procedures in an emergency situation, that individual would be considered non self-reliant for airline travel. At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten required an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure was to the questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. Morten and his doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health Services department of Air Canada. Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly form until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to fly with an attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's doctor until a couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed form was not received by the Occupation Health Services office before the date that Mr. Morten was to fly. The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada imposed on Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed on other passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten was directly related to his disability and the Tribunal found that this condition imposed by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. Morten to fly with an attendant affected his freedom to travel and increased his cost of travelling. Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the discrimination could be justified. In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this restriction was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement was adopted in the good faith belief that it was necessary for passenger safety and whether allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would have imposed undue hardship on Air Canada, considering health, safety and cost. Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each passenger's needs is not impossible especially since individual assessment is the procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to determine fitness to fly. The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the discriminatory policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his reservation. Air Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's individual needs and capabilities and because of this failure it could not justify the discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to accommodate the needs of disabled persons must be founded on their actual capacities and the real risks posed thereby, rather than on discriminatory assumptions based on stereotypes of disability." The Tribunal ordered: Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] and Mr. Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the inherent risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are currently allowed to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency situations, many able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process and act on safety-related emergency instructions. It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully redress the discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and prevent its recurrence. The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal suffering that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's decision: Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. Morten's sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his independence over the years and the effects on his physical well-being, we consider that an award of $10,000 is an appropriate amount for pain and suffering. The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 18:30:44 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:30:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090609183044.GB464@yumi.bluecherry.net> Alena, Bear in mind that the combined voice/data plan for the iPhone through AT&T is about $90 per month. Worse, it's AT&T service. I think the shock of the plan's cost will drive away as many people as are attracted to the low price of an accessible cell phone. Joseph On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 07:39:40AM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind >community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the >least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that >learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it >works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player >all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Jun 9 19:16:58 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:16:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada Message-ID: <20090609191658.11254.76580@web3.serotek.com> The very fact that a person with a disability is required to go through that trouble to fly is terrible anyway. I wouldn't want the third degree from a staff of medical professionals just because i want to fly. that's rediculous! My life should not be determined by a staff of medical doctors who are as steeped in stereotypes dispite their medical knowledge as the rest of the world. No thanks. How far do they want to take that, anyway? I could perhaps understand the fitness to fly thing if a condition were truly life threatening such as heart conditions or recent surgery. But for the most part, a disability doesn't qualify under those conditions. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would pass on > an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news letter, which > came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news story, but it is pretty > informative, and I think most of you will be pleased by the outcome. > Marc > Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind > Passengers Discriminatory > By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer > In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal [The > Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten who is > deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he cover the > costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal found that this > blanket decision did not allow for individual assessments of disabled > travelers and it had a discriminatory impact on Mr. Morten as a person with > a disability. > At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he travels > independently around the city where he lives. He is accompanied by his > guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods that he uses to > communicate when travelling. For quick communication such as asking for > directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell the words in block letters > on his palm. He indicated that people have no trouble understanding very > quickly how to communicate with him. > Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has a large > button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of travelling on > public transit. If a transit employee approached him to ask if he needed > help, the transit employee would tap him on the shoulder and put Mr. > Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could identify > the person as a transit employee. He would let the person know that he is > not lost by writing O K on a hand. > If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten writes out > the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the amount of the > fare by drawing the number on his palm. > When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that he was > deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. Morten's > disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an attendant to fly > with him and he would be required to pay the cost of the attendant. The Air > Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation attendant's decision. The Meda > desk is part of Air Canada's reservations department. The practice that is > to be followed when a person making a reservation indicates that they are a > person with a disability who may require some accommodations while flying is > that the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and from his > or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may need while > flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not medically trained. The > medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational Health > Services department who review the medical information and determine whether > the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without conditions. The > Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed physicians, occupational > health nurses and medical officer assistants. > The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person would be > self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of passenger's > ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability to make his or > her need for assistance known and the ability of the passenger to move from > his or her seat should that be necessary in an emergency. > An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person with a > disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine whether an > individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. The Air Canada > witness said that if the individual was not able to see or hear the cabin > crew to receive information about safety procedures in an emergency > situation, that individual would be considered non self-reliant for airline > travel. > At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not > followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the > reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten required > an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure was to the > questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. Morten and his > doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health Services department of > Air Canada. > Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly form > until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to fly with an > attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's doctor until a > couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed form was not received > by the Occupation Health Services office before the date that Mr. Morten was > to fly. > The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada imposed on > Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed on other > passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten was directly > related to his disability and the Tribunal found that this condition imposed > by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. Morten to fly with an > attendant affected his freedom to travel and increased his cost of > travelling. > Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant > discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the > discrimination could be justified. > In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant > requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this restriction > was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement was adopted in the > good faith belief that it was necessary for passenger safety and whether > allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would have imposed undue hardship on Air > Canada, considering health, safety and cost. > Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each passenger's > needs is not impossible especially since individual assessment is the > procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to determine fitness to fly. > The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the discriminatory > policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his reservation. Air > Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's individual needs and > capabilities and because of this failure it could not justify the > discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to accommodate the needs > of disabled persons must be founded on their actual capacities and the real > risks posed thereby, rather than on discriminatory assumptions based on > stereotypes of disability." > The Tribunal ordered: > Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] and Mr. > Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the > communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the inherent > risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are currently allowed > to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency situations, many > able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process and act on > safety-related emergency instructions. > It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully redress the > discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and prevent its > recurrence. > The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal suffering > that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's decision: > Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. Morten's > sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his independence over the > years and the effects on his physical well-being, we consider that an award > of $10,000 is an appropriate amount for pain and suffering. > The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at > http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 19:49:41 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:49:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com><3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dezman, You can actually buy an unlocked version of the IPhone 3GS. The unlocked versions of the IPhone how ever are more expensive then their unlocked counterparts. Here is a podcast talking about the IPhone 3GS http://serotalk.com/podcasts/SeroTalk016.mp3 Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dezman Jackson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "alena roberts" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: > > I agree with you. that's why I said: > > "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." > > Just saying. > > > > Brice >> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that >> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our >> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer >> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on >> those who innovate, can we? >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> >> Original message: >> >> > I'm happy with my N82. >> >> >> >> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >> >> >> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the >> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine >> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just >> > a popular craze. >> >> >> >> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less >> > popular but more feature-filled products. >> >> >> >> > But this ... >> >> >> >> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press >> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >> >> > Brice >> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> >> >> >> Vision >> >> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >> >> for those with impaired vision. >> >> >> >> VoiceOver >> >> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >> >> >> >> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >> >> 3G S. It�s the world�s first gesture-based screen >> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >> >> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >> >> It�s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >> >> you�re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >> >> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >> >> communicate where each element is located or >> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >> >> contextual information is very important but >> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >> >> For example, �off-screen� models used by >> >> traditional screen readers to represent >> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >> >> away contextual information and describe web >> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >> >> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone�s >> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >> >> what�s in the upper left corner of a web page, >> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >> >> you'll learn what�s nearby, providing an amazing >> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what >> >> they are. >> >> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >> >> screen, including status information such as >> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >> >> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >> >> volume of background sounds and music are >> >> automatically lowered, �ducking� under the voice, >> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >> >> >> >> It speaks your language >> >> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and >> >> Swedish. >> >> >> >> Getting started >> >> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >> >> There�s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >> >> Window-Eyes� for Windows XP and Windows Vista >> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >> >> >> >> How it works >> >> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >> >> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >> >> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >> >> previous item on the screen�no matter how big or >> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >> >> control of what you hear even when it might >> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >> >> >> >> Entering Text >> >> >> When you�re typing text, such as an email message >> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >> >> addition to individual characters as you type >> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a >> >> new word. >> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >> >> >> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >> >> correct spelling when you type a word >> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >> >> >> >> The Rotor >> >> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >> >> >> >> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >> >> control called a �rotor.� Turning the rotor� by >> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >> >> turning an actual dial � changes the way >> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >> >> down might move through text word by word. But >> >> when you choose the �character� setting, each >> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >> >> through the text character by character � perfect >> >> when you�re proofreading or editing text. >> >> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >> >> When you�re on a web page, the rotor contains the >> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >> >> between. >> >> >> >> Applications >> >> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >> >> compatible. >> >> Learn >> >> more >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >> >> >> >> Voice Control >> >> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >> >> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >> >> Learn >> >> more >> >> >> >> Zoom >> >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >> >> >> >> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >> >> you�re using to help you see what�s on the >> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >> >> iTunes when you�re setting up the iPhone, for >> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >> >> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens�even with >> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >> >> >> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >> >> auto-text. >> >> >> >> White On Black >> >> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >> >> affect works in all applications including the >> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >> >> VoiceOver. >> >> >> >> Speak Auto-text >> >> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they�re >> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >> >> you�re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >> >> you�re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >> >> >> >> Tactile Buttons >> >> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >> >> button, centered below the display. >> >> >> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >> >> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >> >> >> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >> >> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >> >> built-in remote control button. >> >> >> Several add-on products are also available to >> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >> >> induction ear loop from >> >> TecEar, >> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. >> >> >> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >> >> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >> >> >> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >> >> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >> >> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio >> >> alert. >> >> >> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >> >> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >> >> >> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >> >> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >> >> Hearing >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ >> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail�. >> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live�: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com > -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 20:04:09 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Trekk For Light Montana Message-ID: <344893.12055.qm@web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I wanted to take a moment to tell you all about a great opperrtunity for those of you who like to travel and like outdoor adventure. Trekk For Light Montana is a blind/low vision hiking event that pairs blind/low vision persons with sighted guides. Trekk for light is open to all blind/low vision adults, regardless of where they live. Trekk for Light Montana is a free or low cost (for the blind participants, I'm not sure about the sighted guides). This year's event  is scheduled for August 16 to 20 in the Little Belt Mountains of central Montana.  For more info, check out the following link: http://www.trollstegan.com/sflmt/ or contact  Ed Durbin, 406-535-7151 or tedurbin at midrivers.com. See you on the trail! Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 21:09:16 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:09:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906091409n2e4584f0l8efb247057d98558@mail.gmail.com> I am actually already on a family plan so the only extra cost would be the data plan. I also don't understand all these AT&T haters. I've never had any issues with them, and if you want an IPhone than you'll deal with being on AT&T. Those are just my thoughts. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 9 21:11:24 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby Message-ID: <487615.51299.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people are not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. BTW, I start cane travel training today. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 21:12:52 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:12:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com><3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ah thanks Jess, that I didn't know. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jess" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > Dezman, > You can actually buy an unlocked version of the IPhone 3GS. The unlocked > versions of the IPhone how ever are more expensive then their unlocked > counterparts. > Here is a podcast talking about the IPhone 3GS > http://serotalk.com/podcasts/SeroTalk016.mp3 > Jessica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dezman Jackson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > > Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will not > work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "alena roberts" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > > I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind > community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the > least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that > learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it > works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player > all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. > > On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: >> >> I agree with you. that's why I said: >> >> "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press >> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." >> >> Just saying. >> >> >> >> Brice >>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> >>> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >>> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >>> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >>> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >>> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that >>> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our >>> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer >>> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on >>> those who innovate, can we? >>> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> >>> Original message: >>> >>> > I'm happy with my N82. >>> >>> >>> >>> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>> >>> >>> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the >>> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly >>> > fine >>> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just >>> > a popular craze. >>> >>> >>> >>> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, >>> > less >>> > popular but more feature-filled products. >>> >>> >>> >>> > But this ... >>> >>> >>> >>> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>> > press >>> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>> >>> > Brice >>> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Vision >>> >>> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >>> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >>> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >>> >> for those with impaired vision. >>> >>> >>> >> VoiceOver >>> >>> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>> >>> >>> >>> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >>> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >>> >> 3G S. It's the world's first gesture-based screen >>> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>> >>> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >>> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >>> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >>> >> It's easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >>> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >>> >> you're looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >>> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >>> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >>> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>> >>> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >>> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >>> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >>> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >>> >> communicate where each element is located or >>> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >>> >> contextual information is very important but >>> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >>> >> For example, "off-screen" models used by >>> >> traditional screen readers to represent >>> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >>> >> away contextual information and describe web >>> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >>> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>> >>> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone's >>> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >>> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >>> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >>> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >>> >> what's in the upper left corner of a web page, >>> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>> >> you'll learn what's nearby, providing an amazing >>> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >>> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >>> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >>> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what >>> >> they are. >>> >>> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >>> >> screen, including status information such as >>> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >>> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >>> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >>> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >>> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>> >>> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >>> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >>> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >>> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >>> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >>> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >>> >> volume of background sounds and music are >>> >> automatically lowered, "ducking" under the voice, >>> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>> >>> >>> >> It speaks your language >>> >>> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >>> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >>> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >>> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >>> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >>> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), >>> >> and >>> >> Swedish. >>> >>> >>> >> Getting started >>> >>> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >>> >> There's nothing extra to purchase or install. All >>> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >>> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >>> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >>> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >>> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>> >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >>> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >>> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >>> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >>> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >>> >>> >>> >> How it works >>> >>> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >>> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >>> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >>> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >>> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>> >>> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >>> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >>> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >>> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >>> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >>> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >>> >>> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >>> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >>> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >>> >> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or >>> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >>> >> control of what you hear even when it might >>> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>> >>> >>> >> Entering Text >>> >>> >> When you're typing text, such as an email message >>> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >>> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >>> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >>> >> addition to individual characters as you type >>> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >>> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >>> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a >>> >> new word. >>> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>> >>> >>> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >>> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >>> >> correct spelling when you type a word >>> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >>> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >>> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >>> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >>> >>> >>> >> The Rotor >>> >>> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>> >>> >>> >>> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >>> >> control called a "rotor." Turning the rotor­ by >>> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >>> >> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way >>> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >>> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >>> >> down might move through text word by word. But >>> >> when you choose the "character" setting, each >>> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >>> >> through the text character by character ­ perfect >>> >> when you're proofreading or editing text. >>> >>> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >>> >> When you're on a web page, the rotor contains the >>> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >>> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >>> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >>> >> between. >>> >>> >>> >> Applications >>> >>> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >>> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >>> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >>> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >>> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >>> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >>> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >>> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >>> >> compatible. >>> >> Learn >>> >> more >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>> >>> >>> >> Voice Control >>> >>> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >>> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >>> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >>> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >>> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >>> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >>> >>> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >>> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >>> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >>> >> Learn >>> >> more >>> >>> >>> >> Zoom >>> >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>> >>> >>> >>> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >>> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >>> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >>> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >>> >> you're using to help you see what's on the >>> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >>> >> iTunes when you're setting up the iPhone, for >>> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >>> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >>> >>> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >>> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with >>> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>> >>> >>> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >>> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >>> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >>> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >>> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >>> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >>> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >>> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >>> >> auto-text. >>> >>> >>> >> White On Black >>> >>> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >>> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >>> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >>> >> affect works in all applications including the >>> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >>> >> VoiceOver. >>> >>> >>> >> Speak Auto-text >>> >>> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >>> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >>> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they're >>> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >>> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >>> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >>> >> you're using VoiceOver, you won't have to >>> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >>> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>> >> you're not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>> >>> >>> >> Tactile Buttons >>> >>> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >>> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >>> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >>> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >>> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >>> >> button, centered below the display. >>> >>> >>> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>> >>> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >>> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >>> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >>> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>> >>> >>> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >>> >>> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >>> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >>> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >>> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >>> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >>> >> built-in remote control button. >>> >>> >> Several add-on products are also available to >>> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >>> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >>> >> induction ear loop from >>> >> TecEar, >>> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. >>> >>> >>> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>> >>> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >>> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >>> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >>> >>> >>> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>> >>> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >>> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >>> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >>> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >>> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >>> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >>> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>> >>> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >>> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >>> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio >>> >> alert. >>> >>> >>> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>> >>> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >>> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >>> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >>> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >>> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>> >>> >>> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>> >>> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >>> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >>> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >>> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>> >> Hearing >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>> >>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. >> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From CDanielsen at nfb.org Tue Jun 9 21:15:58 2009 From: CDanielsen at nfb.org (Danielsen, Chris) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:15:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?FW=3A_Festival_International_de_Jazz_de_M?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ontr=E9al_more_ac_cessible_than_ever!?= Message-ID: ---------- We have been asked to circulate the following: From: HumanWare [mailto:nicolas.lagace at humanware.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:07 PM To: Danielsen, Chris Subject: Festival International de Jazz de Montréal more accessible than ever! Festival International de Jazz de Montréal more accessible than ever! New talking GPS Trekker Breeze makes world premiere MONTREAL, June 9, 2009 - To help celebrate the 30th anniversary of the Festival International de Jazz de Montréal this year, the Festival, HumanWare and the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille (INLB), have joined forces to make the programming and outdoor sites more accessible than ever. The new talking GPS Trekker Breeze will be made available to visually impaired festival goers so they can more easily find their way around the site. It's a world first! Participants with vision loss can come to the HumanWare-INLB booth to borrow a Trekker Breeze at no cost for a number of hours. They can then choose their next stop on the site from a list of prerecorded points of interest. Be it one of the many outdoor stages, a group of merchant booths, washroom facilities, or access to a metro station or bus stop, Breeze users need only follow the voice instructions to easily find their way to their destination. Festival goers who already have a Humanware GPS for the visually impaired can download the list of points of interest from www.humanware.com/jazz free of charge. Users of software or DAISY-format talking book players. such as the Victor Reader Stream, can also download the programming for all concerts. The Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille, which helped develop and test the Trekker Breeze, will also join in the festivities by offering information about visual disabilities. Passersby will be able to learn about the effects of various diseases of the eye by trying on simulation glasses made available by the INLB. This year marks the 200th anniversary since the birth of Louis Braille, inventor of the Braille writing system for the visually impaired. What better way to mark the anniversary than by attending the free concert by Stevie Wonder, the Grand événement General Motors on June 30, 2009? For more information, visit www.humanware.com/jazz or contact Humanware at 1-888-723-7273, or call the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille at 1-800-361-7013. About HumanWare HumanWare (http://www.humanware.com) is the global leader in assistive technologies for the print disabled. It creates products for people who are blind, have low vision and/or have learning disabilities. The innovative range of HumanWare products includes BrailleNote, the leading productivity device for the blind in education and business, as well as for personal use; the Victor Reader line, the world's leading digital audiobook players; and SmartView Xtend, the first fully modular and upgradeable CCTV-based video magnifier. About the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille Located in Longueuil, the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille is the only Quebec rehabilitation centre solely for people with visual impairments. It aims to achieve the social, educational, professional and community integration of people affected by partial or total loss of vision. Offering a range of specially adapted services, it serves the Montreal, Montérégie and Laval areas. For more information about the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille, visit: www.inlb.qc.ca. Source: HumanWare and the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille Information: Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille: Jade St-Jean Morin Relations Publiques Téléphone : 514 289-8688, poste 235 Mobile : 514 716-7530 jade at morinrp.com Humanware: Nicolas Lagacé Communications and Marketing HumanWare Tel.: 450-463-1717, ext. 341 nicolas.lagace at humanware.com ©2009 HumanWare. From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 21:35:58 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:35:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090609213558.GC684@yumi.bluecherry.net> Jess, "Obligation free" is not the same as "Unlocked". Genuinely unlocked phones are available in countries other than the United States, but you'd have to import one at considerable expense most likely. If I wind up with an iPhone 3GS, this is likely how it will happen, but I have little incentive to come up with that kind of cash unless and until I can be sure that I am buying a factory SIM unlocked product that may be activated with any carrier worldwide. This isn't my first foray into the iPhone, or into doing things to one that Apple and AT&T didn't intend. *grin* Have jailbreak, will travel. The iPhone dev team has the 3.0 Gold Master and is working on a jailbreak for 2G and 3G devices with iTunes 8.2. If they have an updated yellowsnow unlock for 3G (2G is completely unlocked already) or a better solution all around, they're keeping a lid on it until the 3GS enters the wild just in case the 3GS is vulnerable to the same exploit. How much of the above will affect blind users, I have no idea. I've never tried to use either of the jailbreak tools with VoiceOver even, but they use enough custom widgets that I don't predict success. Now that the phone's got a screen reader, I'll hit up the UI guys and see if they can add some accessibility hooks to the tools. Note, Apple doesn't think you should be doing any of this. If it breaks, you keep both pieces. Joseph On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 03:49:41PM -0400, Jess wrote: >Dezman, >You can actually buy an unlocked version of the IPhone 3GS. The unlocked >versions of the IPhone how ever are more expensive then their unlocked >counterparts. >Here is a podcast talking about the IPhone 3GS >http://serotalk.com/podcasts/SeroTalk016.mp3 >Jessica From habnkid at aol.com Tue Jun 9 21:37:35 2009 From: habnkid at aol.com (Haben Girma) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:37:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <20090609182600.GA464@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090609182600.GA464@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4A2ED61F.2040907@aol.com> Here's what Apple says about typing on the iPhone 3GS: Entering Text When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you’ll hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. It sounds like there would be a huge learning curve for blind users, but the end result could be fast typing on a fast and feature-packed phone. Haben T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Brice, > > So, I think I'm hearing you say that you've been an anti-apple-snob > and they finally came out with a device that even you think sounds > really cool? *grin* > > Honestly, Apple and the hardcore Apple fan base really kind of ask for > it sometimes, I freely admit. But what has me excited about the iPhone > 3GS is not that it has a screen reader, but that it has the screen > reader built-in to a device that sells for $199 with contract. > > Of course, AT&T will make you pay for their data plan with the phone > and I'm not even remotely sure how useful the data plan would be to a > blind user since I don't see how the iPhone 3GS handles text entry > without a tactile keyboard. But if Apple's got that figured out, it's > a $200 smart phone, accessible out of the box. > > That's something to get excited about. Now put a real camera in the > thing Apple, so we can have iKNFB Reader. *grin* > > Joseph > > > On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:56:46AM -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >> >> I'm happy with my N82. >> >> >> >> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >> >> >> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, >> the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly >> fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >> are just a popular craze. >> >> >> >> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, >> less popular but more feature-filled products. >> >> >> >> But this ... >> >> >> >> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >> press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >> >> Brice >>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> >>> >>> >>> Vision >>> >>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally revolutionary >>> screen reader, and other innovative accessibility features that make >>> it easier to use for those with impaired vision. >>> >>> >>> VoiceOver >>> >>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>> >>> >>> >>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on the Mac is now a >>> standard feature on the iPhone 3G S. It’s the world’s first >>> gesture-based screen reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>> >>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable is that you control >>> it using simple gestures that let you physically interact with items >>> on screen. It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of memorizing >>> hundreds of keyboard commands, or endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys >>> to find what you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply touch >>> the screen to hear a description of the item under your finger, then >>> gesture with a double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>> >>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any screen reader you've >>> ever used before. Traditional screen readers describe individual >>> elements on the screen, but struggle to communicate where each >>> element is located or provide information about adjoining objects. >>> This contextual information is very important but typically filtered >>> out by other screen readers. For example, “off-screen” models used >>> by traditional screen readers to represent applications and web >>> pages intentionally strip away contextual information and describe >>> web pages as a list or menu of items. But with VoiceOver on iPhone >>> 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>> >>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s touchscreen, you interact >>> directly with objects on the screen and can naturally understand >>> their location and context. So, when you touch the upper-left corner >>> of the screen, you'll hear what’s in the upper left corner of a web >>> page, and as you drag your finger around the screen, you'll learn >>> what’s nearby, providing an amazing new sense of context and >>> relationship between the items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on >>> iPhone will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true sense of how >>> things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. >>> >>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the screen, including >>> status information such as battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network >>> signal levels, the cellular network provider, and time of day. It >>> even lets you know when the display changes to landscape or portrait >>> orientation, and when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>> >>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it to a speed that >>> best suits your listening ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound >>> effects to alert you when an application opens, when the screen is >>> updated, when a message dialog appears, and more. And, when >>> Voiceover is talking, the volume of background sounds and music are >>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, so you can clearly >>> hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>> >>> >>> It speaks your language >>> >>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 languages including >>> Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, >>> English (US), English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Polish, >>> Portuguese (Brazil), Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish >>> (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >>> >>> >>> Getting started >>> >>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. There’s nothing extra >>> to purchase or install. All you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 >>> or later, and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and enable >>> VoiceOver without sighted assistance using iTunes with a compatible >>> screen reader like VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista (sold separately). >>> When you activate iPhone using iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on >>> the iPhone to start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using the Accessibility >>> menu in the Settings application. >>> >>> >>> How it works >>> >>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, but simple set of >>> gestures to control the iPhone. For example, instead of tapping to >>> click a button or select an item, you tap to hear a description of >>> the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>> >>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black rectangle called the >>> VoiceOver cursor appears around it. The VoiceOver cursor is >>> displayed for the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, VoiceOver includes a >>> screen curtain that turns off the display so no one can read it >>> without your knowledge. >>> >>> In addition to touching and dragging around the screen, you can also >>> flick left and right to move the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the >>> next or previous item on the screen­no matter how big or small it >>> is. By flicking, you have precise control of what you hear even when >>> it might otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>> >>> >>> Entering Text >>> >>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, >>> VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and >>> again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>> speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual >>> characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves >>> the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you can >>> edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>> >>> >>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >>> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll hear a sound >>> effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just >>> keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type >>> it for you. >>> >>> >>> The Rotor >>> >>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>> >>> >>> >>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual control called a “rotor.” >>> Turning the rotor­ by rotating two fingers on the screen as if you >>> were turning an actual dial ­ changes the way VoiceOver moves >>> through a document based on a setting you choose. For example, a >>> flick up or down might move through text word by word. But when you >>> choose the “character” setting, each time you flick up or down >>> VoiceOver will move through the text character by character ­ >>> perfect when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>> >>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. When you’re on a >>> web page, the rotor contains the names of common items, such as >>> headers, links, tables, images, and more. You select a setting, then >>> flick up and down to move to the previous or next occurrence of that >>> item on the page, skipping over items in between. >>> >>> >>> Applications >>> >>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in applications that come with >>> iPhone 3G S, such as Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. >>> So, you can place and receive calls, surf the web, text and email >>> your friends, check your stocks and the weather, and much, much >>> more. Apple is also working with iPhone software developers so they >>> can make their applications VoiceOver compatible. >>> Learn >>> more >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>> >>> >>> Voice Control >>> >>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice to play music and >>> make a phone call. Just press and hold the home button, listen for >>> the audio prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, or >>> playlist you want to hear. You can pause, play, change tracks, even >>> shuffle your music. >>> >>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or telephone number of >>> the person you want to call. iPhone 3G S understands 21 different >>> languages. >>> Learn >>> more >>> >>> >>> Zoom >>> >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>> >>> >>> >>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in and out specific >>> elements such as images in Mail, or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom >>> lets you magnify the entire screen of any application you’re using >>> to help you see what’s on the display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone >>> 3G S using iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for yourself or >>> someone else, or later, using the Accessibility menu in the Settings >>> application on the iPhone. >>> >>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight >>> screens­even with applications you purchase from the App store. >>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>> >>> >>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly zooms in and out >>> 200% and you can double-tap and drag three fingers to dynamically >>> adjust the magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when zoomed, >>> you can continue using all of the familiar flick, pinch, tap and >>> other iPhone gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom can >>> also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. >>> >>> >>> White On Black >>> >>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, iPhone 3G S provides >>> an option to change the display to White On Black. This reverse >>> video affect works in all applications including the Home, Unlock, >>> and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >>> >>> >>> Speak Auto-text >>> >>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you finish typing it or a >>> correction when a word is misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re presented. When >>> zoomed, for example, the suggestion might not be visible on screen, >>> but you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If you’re using >>> VoiceOver, you won't have to interrupt your typing and touch the >>> suggestion to hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>> >>> >>> Tactile Buttons >>> >>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible physical buttons used to >>> control the phone: the Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; >>> the Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, located on the >>> upper-left edge; and the Home button, centered below the display. >>> >>> >>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>> >>> For improved email readability, you can increase the default font >>> size of email text from Medium (the default) to Large, Extra-large, >>> or Giant. >>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>> >>> >>> iPhone Stereo Headset >>> >>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a high-performance >>> microphone built into the cable. Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm >>> stereo headphone jack and the headset lets you control music >>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the built-in remote >>> control button. >>> >>> Several add-on products are also available to work with iPhone that >>> can help those with hearing disabilities, including a hearing >>> aid-compatible induction ear loop from >>> TecEar, wireless remote >>> headset from Oticon, and others. >>> >>> >>> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>> >>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in speakerphone, >>> which you can also use to listen to Visual Voicemail, music, >>> podcasts, and video. >>> >>> >>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>> >>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both audible and visual >>> alerts. You can activate alerts for phone calls, text messages, >>> incoming and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also offers an >>> audio option confirming keyboard clicks. You can even set incoming >>> calls to display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>> >>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of playing a tone. To ensure >>> that you never miss a notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate >>> and play an audio alert. >>> >>> >>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>> >>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to individuals in your contacts >>> list, using the ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the iTunes >>> Store to create, purchase, and download additional ringtones of your >>> favorite songs (sold separately). >>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>> >>> >>> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>> >>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML format designed >>> with accessibility in mind. You can read the guide using your >>> favorite screen reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and using >>> Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>> Hearing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Jun 9 21:45:53 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:45:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind Message-ID: <20090609214553.2192.60150@web1.serotek.com> And it doesn't have the reader software in it, either. Can it support accessible GPS software? Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will not > work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "alena roberts" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind > community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the > least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that > learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it > works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player > all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. > On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: >> I agree with you. that's why I said: >> "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press >> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." >> Just saying. >> Brice >>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >>> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >>> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >>> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >>> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs that >>> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process our >>> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with consumer >>> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't hate on >>> those who innovate, can we? >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> Original message: >>>> I'm happy with my N82. >>>> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>>> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, the >>>> only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>>> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly fine >>>> for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs are just >>>> a popular craze. >>>> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, less >>>> popular but more feature-filled products. >>>> But this ... >>>> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a press >>>> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>>> Brice >>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>>> Vision >>>>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >>>>> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >>>>> accessibility features that make it easier to use >>>>> for those with impaired vision. >>>>> VoiceOver >>>>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >>>>> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >>>>> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >>>>> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >>>>> is that you control it using simple gestures that >>>>> let you physically interact with items on screen. >>>>> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>>>> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >>>>> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >>>>> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >>>>> touch the screen to hear a description of the >>>>> item under your finger, then gesture with a >>>>> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>>>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >>>>> screen reader you've ever used before. >>>>> Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>>> elements on the screen, but struggle to >>>>> communicate where each element is located or >>>>> provide information about adjoining objects. This >>>>> contextual information is very important but >>>>> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >>>>> For example, “off-screen” models used by >>>>> traditional screen readers to represent >>>>> applications and web pages intentionally strip >>>>> away contextual information and describe web >>>>> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >>>>> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>>>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >>>>> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >>>>> on the screen and can naturally understand their >>>>> location and context. So, when you touch the >>>>> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >>>>> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >>>>> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>>>> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >>>>> new sense of context and relationship between the >>>>> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >>>>> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >>>>> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what >>>>> they are. >>>>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >>>>> screen, including status information such as >>>>> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >>>>> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >>>>> of day. It even lets you know when the display >>>>> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >>>>> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >>>>> to a speed that best suits your listening >>>>> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >>>>> to alert you when an application opens, when the >>>>> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >>>>> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >>>>> volume of background sounds and music are >>>>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >>>>> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>>> It speaks your language >>>>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >>>>> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >>>>> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >>>>> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >>>>> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >>>>> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and >>>>> Swedish. >>>>> Getting started >>>>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >>>>> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >>>>> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >>>>> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >>>>> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >>>>> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >>>>> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>>>> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >>>>> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >>>>> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >>>>> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>>>> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >>>>> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >>>>> How it works >>>>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >>>>> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >>>>> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >>>>> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >>>>> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >>>>> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >>>>> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >>>>> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >>>>> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >>>>> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >>>>> In addition to touching and dragging around the >>>>> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >>>>> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >>>>> previous item on the screen­no matter how big or >>>>> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >>>>> control of what you hear even when it might >>>>> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>>> Entering Text >>>>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >>>>> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >>>>> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >>>>> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>>> speak each completed word instead of and in >>>>> addition to individual characters as you type >>>>> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >>>>> insertion point cursor left and right within the >>>>> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a >>>>> new word. >>>>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >>>>> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >>>>> correct spelling when you type a word >>>>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >>>>> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >>>>> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >>>>> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >>>>> The Rotor >>>>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >>>>> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by >>>>> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >>>>> turning an actual dial ­ changes the way >>>>> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >>>>> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >>>>> down might move through text word by word. But >>>>> when you choose the “character” setting, each >>>>> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >>>>> through the text character by character ­ perfect >>>>> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >>>>> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >>>>> names of common items, such as headers, links, >>>>> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>>>> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >>>>> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >>>>> between. >>>>> Applications >>>>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >>>>> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >>>>> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >>>>> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >>>>> text and email your friends, check your stocks >>>>> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >>>>> also working with iPhone software developers so >>>>> they can make their applications VoiceOver >>>>> compatible. >>>>> Learn >>>>> more >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>>> Voice Control >>>>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >>>>> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >>>>> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >>>>> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >>>>> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >>>>> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >>>>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >>>>> telephone number of the person you want to call. >>>>> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >>>>> Learn >>>>> more >>>>> Zoom >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >>>>> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >>>>> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >>>>> magnify the entire screen of any application >>>>> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >>>>> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >>>>> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >>>>> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >>>>> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >>>>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >>>>> Unlock, and Spotlight screens­even with >>>>> applications you purchase from the App store. >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >>>>> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >>>>> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >>>>> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >>>>> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >>>>> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >>>>> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >>>>> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >>>>> auto-text. >>>>> White On Black >>>>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >>>>> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >>>>> display to White On Black. This reverse video >>>>> affect works in all applications including the >>>>> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >>>>> VoiceOver. >>>>> Speak Auto-text >>>>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >>>>> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >>>>> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>>>> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >>>>> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >>>>> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >>>>> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >>>>> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >>>>> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >>>>> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>>> Tactile Buttons >>>>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >>>>> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >>>>> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >>>>> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >>>>> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >>>>> button, centered below the display. >>>>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>>> For improved email readability, you can increase >>>>> the default font size of email text from Medium >>>>> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >>>>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>>> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >>>>> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >>>>> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >>>>> jack and the headset lets you control music >>>>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >>>>> built-in remote control button. >>>>> Several add-on products are also available to >>>>> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >>>>> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >>>>> induction ear loop from >>>>> TecEar, >>>>> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and others. >>>>> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >>>>> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >>>>> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >>>>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >>>>> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >>>>> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >>>>> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >>>>> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >>>>> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >>>>> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >>>>> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >>>>> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an audio >>>>> alert. >>>>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >>>>> individuals in your contacts list, using the >>>>> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >>>>> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >>>>> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>>>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>>> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >>>>> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >>>>> can read the guide using your favorite screen >>>>> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>>>> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>>> Hearing >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. >> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From serenacucco at verizon.net Tue Jun 9 22:21:06 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:21:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada References: Message-ID: <00b901c9e950$9539f9f0$0401a8c0@Serene> Awesome! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada > Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would pass > on > an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news letter, which > came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news story, but it is pretty > informative, and I think most of you will be pleased by the outcome. > > Marc > > Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind > Passengers Discriminatory > By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer > > In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal [The > Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten who is > deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he cover the > costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal found that this > blanket decision did not allow for individual assessments of disabled > travelers and it had a discriminatory impact on Mr. Morten as a person > with > a disability. > > At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he > travels > independently around the city where he lives. He is accompanied by his > guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods that he uses to > communicate when travelling. For quick communication such as asking for > directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell the words in block > letters > on his palm. He indicated that people have no trouble understanding very > quickly how to communicate with him. > > Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has a > large > button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of travelling > on > public transit. If a transit employee approached him to ask if he needed > help, the transit employee would tap him on the shoulder and put Mr. > Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could > identify > the person as a transit employee. He would let the person know that he is > not lost by writing O K on a hand. > > If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten writes out > the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the amount of > the > fare by drawing the number on his palm. > > When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that he > was > deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. Morten's > disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an attendant to > fly > with him and he would be required to pay the cost of the attendant. The > Air > Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation attendant's decision. The Meda > desk is part of Air Canada's reservations department. The practice that is > to be followed when a person making a reservation indicates that they are > a > person with a disability who may require some accommodations while flying > is > that the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and from > his > or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may need while > flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not medically trained. > The > medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational Health > Services department who review the medical information and determine > whether > the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without conditions. The > Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed physicians, > occupational > health nurses and medical officer assistants. > > The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person would be > self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of passenger's > ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability to make his or > her need for assistance known and the ability of the passenger to move > from > his or her seat should that be necessary in an emergency. > > An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person with a > disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine whether an > individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. The Air Canada > witness said that if the individual was not able to see or hear the cabin > crew to receive information about safety procedures in an emergency > situation, that individual would be considered non self-reliant for > airline > travel. > > At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not > followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the > reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten > required > an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure was to the > questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. Morten and his > doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health Services department of > Air Canada. > > Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly form > until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to fly with an > attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's doctor until a > couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed form was not > received > by the Occupation Health Services office before the date that Mr. Morten > was > to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada imposed > on > Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed on other > passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten was directly > related to his disability and the Tribunal found that this condition > imposed > by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. Morten to fly with an > attendant affected his freedom to travel and increased his cost of > travelling. > > Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant > discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the > discrimination could be justified. > > In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant > requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this > restriction > was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement was adopted in > the > good faith belief that it was necessary for passenger safety and whether > allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would have imposed undue hardship on > Air > Canada, considering health, safety and cost. > > Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each passenger's > needs is not impossible especially since individual assessment is the > procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to determine fitness to > fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the > discriminatory > policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his reservation. Air > Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's individual needs and > capabilities and because of this failure it could not justify the > discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to accommodate the > needs > of disabled persons must be founded on their actual capacities and the > real > risks posed thereby, rather than on discriminatory assumptions based on > stereotypes of disability." > > The Tribunal ordered: > Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] and > Mr. > Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the > communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the inherent > risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are currently allowed > to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency situations, many > able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process and act on > safety-related emergency instructions. > > It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully redress > the > discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and prevent its > recurrence. > > The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal > suffering > that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's decision: > > Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. Morten's > sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his independence over the > years and the effects on his physical well-being, we consider that an > award > of $10,000 is an appropriate amount for pain and suffering. > > The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at > http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From freedmas at stolaf.edu Tue Jun 9 22:42:51 2009 From: freedmas at stolaf.edu (Sydney Walker Freedman) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:42:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <4A2ED61F.2040907@aol.com> References: <20090609182600.GA464@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A2ED61F.2040907@aol.com> Message-ID: <922c02e40906091542p3621fb18lea35df6356450ba0@mail.gmail.com> Couldn't you use one of those little bluetooth keyboard with it? On 6/9/09, Haben Girma wrote: > > Here's what Apple says about typing on the iPhone 3GS: > > Entering Text > When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, VoiceOver > echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and again to > confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver speak each > completed word instead of and in addition to individual characters as > you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves the insertion point > cursor left and right within the text so you can edit a word just as > easily and precisely as typing a new word. > > > To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word > prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word > incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you’ll hear a sound effect > and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just keep typing to > ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. > > > It sounds like there would be a huge learning curve for blind users, but > the end result could be fast typing on a fast and feature-packed phone. > > Haben > > T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Brice, >> >> So, I think I'm hearing you say that you've been an anti-apple-snob >> and they finally came out with a device that even you think sounds >> really cool? *grin* >> >> Honestly, Apple and the hardcore Apple fan base really kind of ask for >> it sometimes, I freely admit. But what has me excited about the iPhone >> 3GS is not that it has a screen reader, but that it has the screen >> reader built-in to a device that sells for $199 with contract. >> >> Of course, AT&T will make you pay for their data plan with the phone >> and I'm not even remotely sure how useful the data plan would be to a >> blind user since I don't see how the iPhone 3GS handles text entry >> without a tactile keyboard. But if Apple's got that figured out, it's >> a $200 smart phone, accessible out of the box. >> >> That's something to get excited about. Now put a real camera in the >> thing Apple, so we can have iKNFB Reader. *grin* >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:56:46AM -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >>> >>> I'm happy with my N82. >>> >>> >>> >>> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>> >>> >>> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, >>> the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly >>> fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>> are just a popular craze. >>> >>> >>> >>> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, >>> less popular but more feature-filled products. >>> >>> >>> >>> But this ... >>> >>> >>> >>> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>> press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>> >>> Brice >>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Vision >>>> >>>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally revolutionary >>>> screen reader, and other innovative accessibility features that make >>>> it easier to use for those with impaired vision. >>>> >>>> >>>> VoiceOver >>>> >>>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on the Mac is now a >>>> standard feature on the iPhone 3G S. It’s the world’s first >>>> gesture-based screen reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>> >>>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable is that you control >>>> it using simple gestures that let you physically interact with items >>>> on screen. It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of memorizing >>>> hundreds of keyboard commands, or endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys >>>> to find what you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply touch >>>> the screen to hear a description of the item under your finger, then >>>> gesture with a double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>>> >>>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any screen reader you've >>>> ever used before. Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>> elements on the screen, but struggle to communicate where each >>>> element is located or provide information about adjoining objects. >>>> This contextual information is very important but typically filtered >>>> out by other screen readers. For example, “off-screen” models used >>>> by traditional screen readers to represent applications and web >>>> pages intentionally strip away contextual information and describe >>>> web pages as a list or menu of items. But with VoiceOver on iPhone >>>> 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>>> >>>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s touchscreen, you interact >>>> directly with objects on the screen and can naturally understand >>>> their location and context. So, when you touch the upper-left corner >>>> of the screen, you'll hear what’s in the upper left corner of a web >>>> page, and as you drag your finger around the screen, you'll learn >>>> what’s nearby, providing an amazing new sense of context and >>>> relationship between the items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on >>>> iPhone will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true sense of how >>>> things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. >>>> >>>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the screen, including >>>> status information such as battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network >>>> signal levels, the cellular network provider, and time of day. It >>>> even lets you know when the display changes to landscape or portrait >>>> orientation, and when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>> >>>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it to a speed that >>>> best suits your listening ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound >>>> effects to alert you when an application opens, when the screen is >>>> updated, when a message dialog appears, and more. And, when >>>> Voiceover is talking, the volume of background sounds and music are >>>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, so you can clearly >>>> hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>> >>>> >>>> It speaks your language >>>> >>>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 languages including >>>> Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, >>>> English (US), English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Polish, >>>> Portuguese (Brazil), Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish >>>> (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >>>> >>>> >>>> Getting started >>>> >>>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. There’s nothing extra >>>> to purchase or install. All you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 >>>> or later, and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and enable >>>> VoiceOver without sighted assistance using iTunes with a compatible >>>> screen reader like VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>>> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista (sold separately). >>>> When you activate iPhone using iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on >>>> the iPhone to start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>>> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using the Accessibility >>>> menu in the Settings application. >>>> >>>> >>>> How it works >>>> >>>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, but simple set of >>>> gestures to control the iPhone. For example, instead of tapping to >>>> click a button or select an item, you tap to hear a description of >>>> the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>> >>>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black rectangle called the >>>> VoiceOver cursor appears around it. The VoiceOver cursor is >>>> displayed for the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, VoiceOver includes a >>>> screen curtain that turns off the display so no one can read it >>>> without your knowledge. >>>> >>>> In addition to touching and dragging around the screen, you can also >>>> flick left and right to move the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the >>>> next or previous item on the screen­no matter how big or small it >>>> is. By flicking, you have precise control of what you hear even when >>>> it might otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>> >>>> >>>> Entering Text >>>> >>>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, >>>> VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and >>>> again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>> speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual >>>> characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves >>>> the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you can >>>> edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >>>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>> >>>> >>>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >>>> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >>>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll hear a sound >>>> effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just >>>> keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type >>>> it for you. >>>> >>>> >>>> The Rotor >>>> >>>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual control called a “rotor.” >>>> Turning the rotor­ by rotating two fingers on the screen as if you >>>> were turning an actual dial ­ changes the way VoiceOver moves >>>> through a document based on a setting you choose. For example, a >>>> flick up or down might move through text word by word. But when you >>>> choose the “character” setting, each time you flick up or down >>>> VoiceOver will move through the text character by character ­ >>>> perfect when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>> >>>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. When you’re on a >>>> web page, the rotor contains the names of common items, such as >>>> headers, links, tables, images, and more. You select a setting, then >>>> flick up and down to move to the previous or next occurrence of that >>>> item on the page, skipping over items in between. >>>> >>>> >>>> Applications >>>> >>>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in applications that come with >>>> iPhone 3G S, such as Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. >>>> So, you can place and receive calls, surf the web, text and email >>>> your friends, check your stocks and the weather, and much, much >>>> more. Apple is also working with iPhone software developers so they >>>> can make their applications VoiceOver compatible. >>>> Learn >>>> more >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>> >>>> >>>> Voice Control >>>> >>>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice to play music and >>>> make a phone call. Just press and hold the home button, listen for >>>> the audio prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, or >>>> playlist you want to hear. You can pause, play, change tracks, even >>>> shuffle your music. >>>> >>>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or telephone number of >>>> the person you want to call. iPhone 3G S understands 21 different >>>> languages. >>>> Learn >>>> >>>> more >>>> >>>> >>>> Zoom >>>> >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in and out specific >>>> elements such as images in Mail, or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom >>>> lets you magnify the entire screen of any application you’re using >>>> to help you see what’s on the display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone >>>> 3G S using iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for yourself or >>>> someone else, or later, using the Accessibility menu in the Settings >>>> application on the iPhone. >>>> >>>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight >>>> screens­even with applications you purchase from the App store. >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>> >>>> >>>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly zooms in and out >>>> 200% and you can double-tap and drag three fingers to dynamically >>>> adjust the magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when zoomed, >>>> you can continue using all of the familiar flick, pinch, tap and >>>> other iPhone gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom can >>>> also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. >>>> >>>> >>>> White On Black >>>> >>>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, iPhone 3G S provides >>>> an option to change the display to White On Black. This reverse >>>> video affect works in all applications including the Home, Unlock, >>>> and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >>>> >>>> >>>> Speak Auto-text >>>> >>>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you finish typing it or a >>>> correction when a word is misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>>> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re presented. When >>>> zoomed, for example, the suggestion might not be visible on screen, >>>> but you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If you’re using >>>> VoiceOver, you won't have to interrupt your typing and touch the >>>> suggestion to hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>> >>>> >>>> Tactile Buttons >>>> >>>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible physical buttons used to >>>> control the phone: the Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; >>>> the Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, located on the >>>> upper-left edge; and the Home button, centered below the display. >>>> >>>> >>>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>> >>>> For improved email readability, you can increase the default font >>>> size of email text from Medium (the default) to Large, Extra-large, >>>> or Giant. >>>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>> >>>> >>>> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>> >>>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a high-performance >>>> microphone built into the cable. Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm >>>> stereo headphone jack and the headset lets you control music >>>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the built-in remote >>>> control button. >>>> >>>> Several add-on products are also available to work with iPhone that >>>> can help those with hearing disabilities, including a hearing >>>> aid-compatible induction ear loop from >>>> TecEar, wireless remote >>>> headset from Oticon, and others. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>> >>>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in speakerphone, >>>> which you can also use to listen to Visual Voicemail, music, >>>> podcasts, and video. >>>> >>>> >>>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>> >>>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both audible and visual >>>> alerts. You can activate alerts for phone calls, text messages, >>>> incoming and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also offers an >>>> audio option confirming keyboard clicks. You can even set incoming >>>> calls to display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>> >>>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of playing a tone. To ensure >>>> that you never miss a notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate >>>> and play an audio alert. >>>> >>>> >>>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>> >>>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to individuals in your contacts >>>> list, using the ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the iTunes >>>> Store to create, purchase, and download additional ringtones of your >>>> favorite songs (sold separately). >>>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>> >>>> >>>> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>> >>>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML format designed >>>> with accessibility in mind. You can read the guide using your >>>> favorite screen reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and using >>>> Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>> Hearing >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freedmas%40stolaf.edu > From fowlers at syix.com Tue Jun 9 23:02:09 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:02:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada In-Reply-To: <00b901c9e950$9539f9f0$0401a8c0@Serene> References: <00b901c9e950$9539f9f0$0401a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: Hey guys, Isn't the decision that air Canada is appealing? All the same, its at the very least a big step in the right direction. Angela -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Serena Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada Awesome! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada > Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would pass > on > an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news letter, which > came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news story, but it is pretty > informative, and I think most of you will be pleased by the outcome. > > Marc > > Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind > Passengers Discriminatory > By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer > > In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal [The > Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten who is > deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he cover the > costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal found that this > blanket decision did not allow for individual assessments of disabled > travelers and it had a discriminatory impact on Mr. Morten as a person > with > a disability. > > At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he > travels > independently around the city where he lives. He is accompanied by his > guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods that he uses to > communicate when travelling. For quick communication such as asking for > directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell the words in block > letters > on his palm. He indicated that people have no trouble understanding very > quickly how to communicate with him. > > Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has a > large > button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of travelling > on > public transit. If a transit employee approached him to ask if he needed > help, the transit employee would tap him on the shoulder and put Mr. > Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could > identify > the person as a transit employee. He would let the person know that he is > not lost by writing O K on a hand. > > If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten writes out > the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the amount of > the > fare by drawing the number on his palm. > > When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that he > was > deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. Morten's > disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an attendant to > fly > with him and he would be required to pay the cost of the attendant. The > Air > Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation attendant's decision. The Meda > desk is part of Air Canada's reservations department. The practice that is > to be followed when a person making a reservation indicates that they are > a > person with a disability who may require some accommodations while flying > is > that the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and from > his > or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may need while > flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not medically trained. > The > medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational Health > Services department who review the medical information and determine > whether > the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without conditions. The > Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed physicians, > occupational > health nurses and medical officer assistants. > > The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person would be > self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of passenger's > ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability to make his or > her need for assistance known and the ability of the passenger to move > from > his or her seat should that be necessary in an emergency. > > An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person with a > disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine whether an > individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. The Air Canada > witness said that if the individual was not able to see or hear the cabin > crew to receive information about safety procedures in an emergency > situation, that individual would be considered non self-reliant for > airline > travel. > > At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not > followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the > reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten > required > an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure was to the > questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. Morten and his > doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health Services department of > Air Canada. > > Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly form > until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to fly with an > attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's doctor until a > couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed form was not > received > by the Occupation Health Services office before the date that Mr. Morten > was > to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada imposed > on > Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed on other > passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten was directly > related to his disability and the Tribunal found that this condition > imposed > by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. Morten to fly with an > attendant affected his freedom to travel and increased his cost of > travelling. > > Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant > discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the > discrimination could be justified. > > In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant > requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this > restriction > was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement was adopted in > the > good faith belief that it was necessary for passenger safety and whether > allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would have imposed undue hardship on > Air > Canada, considering health, safety and cost. > > Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each passenger's > needs is not impossible especially since individual assessment is the > procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to determine fitness to > fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the > discriminatory > policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his reservation. Air > Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's individual needs and > capabilities and because of this failure it could not justify the > discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to accommodate the > needs > of disabled persons must be founded on their actual capacities and the > real > risks posed thereby, rather than on discriminatory assumptions based on > stereotypes of disability." > > The Tribunal ordered: > Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] and > Mr. > Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the > communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the inherent > risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are currently allowed > to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency situations, many > able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process and act on > safety-related emergency instructions. > > It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully redress > the > discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and prevent its > recurrence. > > The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal > suffering > that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's decision: > > Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. Morten's > sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his independence over the > years and the effects on his physical well-being, we consider that an > award > of $10,000 is an appropriate amount for pain and suffering. > > The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at > http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo n.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From mworkman at ualberta.ca Tue Jun 9 23:30:24 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:30:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, you're right. I missed that. Air Canada is appealing this decision in federal court. Sorry about that. I'll let you know if I ever hear anything about the court's decision. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Angela fowler Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 5:02 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada Hey guys, Isn't the decision that air Canada is appealing? All the same, its at the very least a big step in the right direction. Angela -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Serena Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada Awesome! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada > Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would pass > on > an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news letter, which > came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news story, but it is pretty > informative, and I think most of you will be pleased by the outcome. > > Marc > > Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind > Passengers Discriminatory > By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer > > In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal [The > Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten who is > deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he cover the > costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal found that this > blanket decision did not allow for individual assessments of disabled > travelers and it had a discriminatory impact on Mr. Morten as a person > with > a disability. > > At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he > travels > independently around the city where he lives. He is accompanied by his > guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods that he uses to > communicate when travelling. For quick communication such as asking for > directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell the words in block > letters > on his palm. He indicated that people have no trouble understanding very > quickly how to communicate with him. > > Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has a > large > button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of travelling > on > public transit. If a transit employee approached him to ask if he needed > help, the transit employee would tap him on the shoulder and put Mr. > Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could > identify > the person as a transit employee. He would let the person know that he is > not lost by writing O K on a hand. > > If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten writes out > the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the amount of > the > fare by drawing the number on his palm. > > When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that he > was > deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. Morten's > disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an attendant to > fly > with him and he would be required to pay the cost of the attendant. The > Air > Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation attendant's decision. The Meda > desk is part of Air Canada's reservations department. The practice that is > to be followed when a person making a reservation indicates that they are > a > person with a disability who may require some accommodations while flying > is > that the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and from > his > or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may need while > flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not medically trained. > The > medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational Health > Services department who review the medical information and determine > whether > the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without conditions. The > Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed physicians, > occupational > health nurses and medical officer assistants. > > The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person would be > self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of passenger's > ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability to make his or > her need for assistance known and the ability of the passenger to move > from > his or her seat should that be necessary in an emergency. > > An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person with a > disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine whether an > individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. The Air Canada > witness said that if the individual was not able to see or hear the cabin > crew to receive information about safety procedures in an emergency > situation, that individual would be considered non self-reliant for > airline > travel. > > At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not > followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the > reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten > required > an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure was to the > questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. Morten and his > doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health Services department of > Air Canada. > > Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly form > until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to fly with an > attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's doctor until a > couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed form was not > received > by the Occupation Health Services office before the date that Mr. Morten > was > to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada imposed > on > Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed on other > passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten was directly > related to his disability and the Tribunal found that this condition > imposed > by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. Morten to fly with an > attendant affected his freedom to travel and increased his cost of > travelling. > > Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant > discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the > discrimination could be justified. > > In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant > requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this > restriction > was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement was adopted in > the > good faith belief that it was necessary for passenger safety and whether > allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would have imposed undue hardship on > Air > Canada, considering health, safety and cost. > > Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each passenger's > needs is not impossible especially since individual assessment is the > procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to determine fitness to > fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the > discriminatory > policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his reservation. Air > Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's individual needs and > capabilities and because of this failure it could not justify the > discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to accommodate the > needs > of disabled persons must be founded on their actual capacities and the > real > risks posed thereby, rather than on discriminatory assumptions based on > stereotypes of disability." > > The Tribunal ordered: > Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] and > Mr. > Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the > communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the inherent > risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are currently allowed > to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency situations, many > able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process and act on > safety-related emergency instructions. > > It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully redress > the > discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and prevent its > recurrence. > > The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal > suffering > that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's decision: > > Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. Morten's > sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his independence over the > years and the effects on his physical well-being, we consider that an > award > of $10,000 is an appropriate amount for pain and suffering. > > The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at > http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo n.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From fowlers at syix.com Wed Jun 10 00:00:07 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:00:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please do, thanks. Angela -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 4:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada Yes, you're right. I missed that. Air Canada is appealing this decision in federal court. Sorry about that. I'll let you know if I ever hear anything about the court's decision. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Angela fowler Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 5:02 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada Hey guys, Isn't the decision that air Canada is appealing? All the same, its at the very least a big step in the right direction. Angela -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Serena Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 3:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada Awesome! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada > Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would > pass on an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news > letter, which came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news > story, but it is pretty informative, and I think most of you will be > pleased by the outcome. > > Marc > > Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind > Passengers Discriminatory By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer > > In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal > [The Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten > who is deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he > cover the costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal > found that this blanket decision did not allow for individual > assessments of disabled travelers and it had a discriminatory impact > on Mr. Morten as a person with a disability. > > At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he > travels independently around the city where he lives. He is > accompanied by his guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods > that he uses to communicate when travelling. For quick communication > such as asking for directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell > the words in block letters on his palm. He indicated that people have > no trouble understanding very quickly how to communicate with him. > > Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has a > large button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of > travelling on public transit. If a transit employee approached him to > ask if he needed help, the transit employee would tap him on the > shoulder and put Mr. > Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could > identify the person as a transit employee. He would let the person > know that he is not lost by writing O K on a hand. > > If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten writes > out the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the > amount of the fare by drawing the number on his palm. > > When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that > he was deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. > Morten's disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an > attendant to fly with him and he would be required to pay the cost of > the attendant. The Air Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation > attendant's decision. The Meda desk is part of Air Canada's > reservations department. The practice that is to be followed when a > person making a reservation indicates that they are a person with a > disability who may require some accommodations while flying is that > the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and from > his or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may > need while flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not > medically trained. > The > medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational > Health Services department who review the medical information and > determine whether the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without > conditions. The Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed > physicians, occupational health nurses and medical officer assistants. > > The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person would > be self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of > passenger's ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability > to make his or her need for assistance known and the ability of the > passenger to move from his or her seat should that be necessary in an > emergency. > > An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person > with a disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine > whether an individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. > The Air Canada witness said that if the individual was not able to see > or hear the cabin crew to receive information about safety procedures > in an emergency situation, that individual would be considered non > self-reliant for airline travel. > > At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not > followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the > reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten > required an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure > was to the questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. > Morten and his doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health > Services department of Air Canada. > > Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly > form until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to > fly with an attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's > doctor until a couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed > form was not received by the Occupation Health Services office before > the date that Mr. Morten was to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada > imposed on Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed > on other passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten > was directly related to his disability and the Tribunal found that > this condition imposed by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. > Morten to fly with an attendant affected his freedom to travel and > increased his cost of travelling. > > Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant > discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the > discrimination could be justified. > > In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant > requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this > restriction was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement > was adopted in the good faith belief that it was necessary for > passenger safety and whether allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would > have imposed undue hardship on Air Canada, considering health, safety > and cost. > > Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each > passenger's needs is not impossible especially since individual > assessment is the procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to > determine fitness to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the > discriminatory policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his > reservation. Air Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's > individual needs and capabilities and because of this failure it could > not justify the discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to > accommodate the needs of disabled persons must be founded on their > actual capacities and the real risks posed thereby, rather than on > discriminatory assumptions based on stereotypes of disability." > > The Tribunal ordered: > Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] > and Mr. > Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the > communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the > inherent risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are > currently allowed to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency > situations, many able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process > and act on safety-related emergency instructions. > > It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully > redress the discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and > prevent its recurrence. > > The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal > suffering that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's > decision: > > Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. > Morten's sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his > independence over the years and the effects on his physical > well-being, we consider that an award of $10,000 is an appropriate > amount for pain and suffering. > > The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at > http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo n.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 00:13:08 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <487615.51299.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <487615.51299.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906091713y1f7d615cge2137c9958dc192b@mail.gmail.com> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. Beth On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people are > not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an > emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. BTW, > I start cane travel training today. > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From marrie12 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 00:33:46 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:33:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Trekk For Light Montana In-Reply-To: <344893.12055.qm@web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <344893.12055.qm@web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is this for a charity? I've never heard of this. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:04 PM To: NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Trekk For Light Montana Hey all, I wanted to take a moment to tell you all about a great opperrtunity for those of you who like to travel and like outdoor adventure. Trekk For Light Montana is a blind/low vision hiking event that pairs blind/low vision persons with sighted guides. Trekk for light is open to all blind/low vision adults, regardless of where they live. Trekk for Light Montana is a free or low cost (for the blind participants, I'm not sure about the sighted guides). This year's event is scheduled for August 16 to 20 in the Little Belt Mountains of central Montana.  For more info, check out the following link: http://www.trollstegan.com/sflmt/ or contact  Ed Durbin, 406-535-7151 or tedurbin at midrivers.com. See you on the trail! Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 00:33:46 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:33:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right totravelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <487615.51299.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <487615.51299.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I personally would not want ot sit in an exit row as I panic easily and would be more of a detriment then a help to the situation. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:11 PM To: NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right totravelalone; Burnaby Hey all, Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people are not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. BTW, I start cane travel training today. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Jun 10 01:11:42 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:11:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby Message-ID: <20090610011142.24456.42322@web1.serotek.com> Not so. We tested a blind person's ability level in emergency exits long ago using all blind participants in a grounded airplane. We even took video. We found that the blind were as fast as their sighted counterparts. Actually, we found that airline attendants slowed some of us up some just by being in the way. Referenced from Walking Alone and Marching Together. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency > row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows > anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. > Beth > On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, >> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people are >> not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an >> emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. BTW, >> I start cane travel training today. >> Jim >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From abeasley at jb11.net Wed Jun 10 03:05:00 2009 From: abeasley at jb11.net (Andrea Beasley) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:05:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Time and Place of Carnival Message-ID: I realize that I did not send out the most important info: day and time. Could you also pass this along with my apologies. The Carnival will take place on Friday, July 3, 2009. Volunteers need to come to the Ambassador 2 Ballroom no later than 9:45. The children will be arriving at 10:15 and will be leaving at 12:00. The extra thirty minutes will give you time to get acquainted with others in the room and with your games of choice. When I get a true list of volunteers I will be contacting you and letting you know specifics on how to reach me in Detroit. If you have offered to bring items please bring them to that same room no later than 9:30 so the games can be set up. Thanks, and again sorry for forgetting this info. Andrea Contact Info: 608-563-4708 home, 608-314-6384 cell, abeasley at jb11.net From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 10 04:00:45 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:00:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] math textbook question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090610000045.vuwvt58bi8c044cs@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Rachel, I'm shocked your school won't pay for this. Transcription of books is far too expensive for students to handle themselves. Having a reader will not suffice for math; I tried it and it doesn't work. Not for visual things like diagrams, and equations can get complicated and so reading them in Braille would be most ideal. Do you need this immediately? It will take time to be brailled, so I would recommend talking with your professors ASAP about this issue so they can accommodate you. I hope it works out. Sarah Quoting Rachel Becker : > What do you do when you have to take a math class and can't find the > textbook in Braille? I searched the APH Louis database for the book but it's > not there. One source said that it will cost $6000 to get the chapters that > I need Brailled. The state agency suggested that I use a reader. Do you > think that using a reader would be a good solution for working with > diagrams? Do you have any sugestions for dealing with a situation like this? > Thanks. > Rachel > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From iamantonio at cox.net Wed Jun 10 04:06:22 2009 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:06:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Congratulations to all scholarship winners, see you at convention Message-ID: <00F22BDC64EC4E2490A5CE9FA9EDEC4A@userf9b4fa60eb> Hello all, I haven't been active on the list in a couple of weeks, but I do want to congratulate all scholarship winners of 2009. It will be very good to hear from you durring convention as you accept the investment of the National Federation of the Blind in your academic future. You will receive many things durring the weekend, most valuable in my mind is the assurance that you can and should pursue your dreams with confidence, and determination. Antonio Guimaraes If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you. http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169 Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 10 04:10:57 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:10:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Trekk For Light Montana In-Reply-To: <344893.12055.qm@web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <344893.12055.qm@web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090610001057.he7s22v63ko088wc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Jim, That sounds like so much fun! i hope it's a success. Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > I wanted to take a moment to tell you all about a great opperrtunity > for those of you who like to travel and like outdoor adventure. > > Trekk For Light Montana is a blind/low vision hiking event that > pairs blind/low vision persons with sighted guides. Trekk for light > is open to all blind/low vision adults, regardless of where they > live. Trekk for Light Montana is a free or low cost (for the blind > participants, I'm not sure about the sighted guides). This year's > event  > is scheduled for August 16 to 20 in the Little Belt Mountains of > central Montana.  > > For more info, check out the following link: > http://www.trollstegan.com/sflmt/ > > or contact  Ed Durbin, > 406-535-7151 or tedurbin at midrivers.com. > > See you on the trail! > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 10 04:13:44 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:13:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?FW=3A_Festival_International_de_Jazz_de_M?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ontr=E9al_more_ac_cessible_than_ever!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090610001344.qix2x680008c88oo@webmail.utoronto.ca> i know this is random, but I hope the trekker breezes are bilingual. The festival is in French-speaking Canada after all ... Quoting "Danielsen, Chris" : > > ---------- > We have been asked to circulate the following: > > From: HumanWare [mailto:nicolas.lagace at humanware.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:07 PM > To: Danielsen, Chris > Subject: Festival International de Jazz de Montréal more accessible > than ever! > > > > > > > Festival International de Jazz de Montréal more accessible than ever! > > > > > New talking GPS Trekker Breeze makes world premiere > > MONTREAL, June 9, 2009 - To help celebrate the 30th anniversary of > the Festival International de Jazz de Montréal this year, the > Festival, HumanWare and the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille > (INLB), have joined forces to make the programming and outdoor sites > more accessible than ever. The new talking GPS Trekker Breeze will > be made available to visually impaired festival goers so they can > more easily find their way around the site. It's a world first! > > Participants with vision loss can come to the HumanWare-INLB booth to > borrow a Trekker Breeze at no cost for a number of hours. They can then > choose their next stop on the site from a list of prerecorded points of > interest. Be it one of the many outdoor stages, a group of merchant > booths, washroom facilities, or access to a metro station or bus stop, > Breeze users need only follow the voice instructions to easily find > their way to their destination. Festival goers who already have a > Humanware GPS for the visually impaired can download the list of points > of interest from www.humanware.com/jazz free of charge. Users of > software or DAISY-format talking book players. such as the Victor > Reader Stream, can also download the programming for all concerts. > > The Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille, which helped develop and test > the Trekker Breeze, will also join in the festivities by offering > information about visual disabilities. Passersby will be able to learn > about the effects of various diseases of the eye by trying on > simulation glasses made available by the INLB. > > This year marks the 200th anniversary since the birth of Louis > Braille, inventor of the Braille writing system for the visually > impaired. What better way to mark the anniversary than by attending > the free concert by Stevie Wonder, the Grand événement General > Motors on June 30, 2009? > > For more information, visit > www.humanware.com/jazz > or contact Humanware at 1-888-723-7273, or call the Institut Nazareth > et Louis-Braille at 1-800-361-7013. > > About HumanWare > > HumanWare > (http://www.humanware.com) is the global leader in assistive technologies for the print disabled. It creates products for people who are blind, have low vision and/or have learning disabilities. The innovative range of HumanWare products includes BrailleNote, the leading productivity device for the blind in education and business, as well as for personal use; the Victor Reader line, the world's leading digital audiobook players; and SmartView Xtend, the first fully modular and upgradeable CCTV-based > video > magnifier. > > About the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille > > Located in Longueuil, the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille is the > only Quebec rehabilitation centre solely for people with visual > impairments. It aims to achieve the social, educational, > professional and community integration of people affected by partial > or total loss of vision. Offering a range of specially adapted > services, it serves the Montreal, Montérégie and Laval areas. For > more information about the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille, > visit: > www.inlb.qc.ca. > > > > Source: HumanWare and the Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille > > Information: > > Institut Nazareth et Louis-Braille: > > Jade St-Jean > Morin Relations Publiques > Téléphone : 514 289-8688, poste 235 > Mobile : 514 716-7530 > jade at morinrp.com > > > Humanware: > > Nicolas Lagacé > Communications and Marketing > HumanWare > Tel.: 450-463-1717, ext. 341 > nicolas.lagace at humanware.com > > > > > > > > ©2009 HumanWare. _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca From monika_r_r at hotmail.com Wed Jun 10 04:24:30 2009 From: monika_r_r at hotmail.com (Monika Reinholz) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:24:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0906091713y1f7d615cge2137c9958dc192b@mail.gmail.com> References: <487615.51299.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4383d01d0906091713y1f7d615cge2137c9958dc192b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the others, therefore having more space for someones legs to be comfortable during flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even though Im ony 5'5" because its more comfortable for the legs. I can understand the kid rule they have for the row but I believe everyone knows what they can do best. If a blind person knows s/he can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and let them sit where they are most comfortable. Monika Monika Reinholz > Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 > From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby > > T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency > row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows > anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. > Beth > > On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: > > Hey all, > > > > Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people are > > not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an > > emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. BTW, > > I start cane travel training today. > > > > Jim > > > > "From compromise and things half done, > > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > > And when at last the fight is won, > > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com From fowlers at syix.com Wed Jun 10 04:47:11 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:47:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <20090610011142.24456.42322@web1.serotek.com> References: <20090610011142.24456.42322@web1.serotek.com> Message-ID: <276DDBBFF13B43F1BA9C19B8CA3846C1@angelab> Does anyone still have that video? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby Not so. We tested a blind person's ability level in emergency exits long ago using all blind participants in a grounded airplane. We even took video. We found that the blind were as fast as their sighted counterparts. Actually, we found that airline attendants slowed some of us up some just by being in the way. Referenced from Walking Alone and Marching Together. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency > row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows > anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. > Beth > On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, >> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind >> people are not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to >> "need" an emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the >> airport/airplane. BTW, I start cane travel training today. >> Jim >> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and >> stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still >> unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm ail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 08:00:32 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Message-ID: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M instructor ever, me! You see,  the VR O/M instructor came to my house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. Apparantly, if  the cane is the right length, you should be able to take two full steps after your cane detects an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining  the "step left- swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back;  some blocks had minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb was there.  Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my skills. I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle in my future if I continued that way. Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. A couple of questions: How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads?  Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Jun 10 09:50:53 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:50:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Message-ID: <20090610095053.3955.81600@web1.serotek.com> Jim, Here are some suggestions to help you in the future. These may also be useful to others, so I post them here. First, regarding cane length. Yes, you will want a longer cane to fully cover the length of your stride. The longer cane will also make it easier to detect those down curbs you mentioned at a reasonable clip. Let's briefly talk about cane composition. Length gives you the advantage of stopping distance and maneuverability. What I'm about to suggest is controversial for a lot of reasons, but the collective experience of many expert cane travelers suggests that you may want to consider a lighter cane, especially one that is fiberglass or carbon fiber. I would also recommend according to that same collective experience, that you don't use a folding cane because the elastic places a barrier between you and the sensations you could be getting. Folding canes are great, but not if you want maximum sensativity. As an option, consider a telescoping cane for collapsability. But for long walks on rugged terrain, consider a straight cane (one that doesn't collapse) and a collapsing one when you're mostly going to travel by plane, car, be indoors, etc. If echolocation is useful to you, you may consider a metal tip for maximum sound as an echolocator. But if echolocation isn't useful because of your hearing loss, still consider the metal tip as it's also quite sensitive and much lighter than the roller tip which means that you exert less effort lifting the cane to make an arc, thus saving your wrist and preventing blistering. Also, to prevent blistering, consider a smooth plastic handle rather than a grippy leather one. In short, think about getting an NfB cane as we tend to make them long, light, and with a center of gravity that's closer to the top of the cane itself rather than the bottom. Now, as to orientation. That's another matter entirely. your instructor may not know how to orient in practice because she is a sighted person who doesn't use the knowledge on a regular basis and probably doesn't really believe that blind people can really travel anyway. This isn't true for all sighted instructors. the best sighted instructors are those who spent a lot of time under blindfold in the company of blind people, learning what the blind do through practice and guided mentoring from good blind travelers. Most sighted instructors get limited practice under blindfold and only see blind travelers on their lessons, so their knowledge tends to be more theoretical than practical. There isn't much you can do about that except to hang around blind people who are good at cane travel and who can really offer you practical suggestions on how to orient. Your teacher may be able to offer some help, but you will have to be the one to provide practical experience on your own unless you've actually observed your instructor actually get around with a blindfold. Knowing basic orientation skills (using non-visual information to discover your location) will negate the need for a flashlight. The more practiced you become, the more you can daydream on a midnight walk. Much of what I tell you comes from collective experience and from my own educational background both in cane travel and in blindness studies. Nonetheless, it's fantastic that the cane skills you have, and the cane itself, gave you a measure of confidence even at the beginning stages of your cane travel journey. Just imagine how confident and how fluid you will become when you get to a level of true experience! you'll be movin' and groovin' before you know it! Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hey all, > I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M > instructor ever, me! You see,  the VR O/M instructor came to my house > today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told > me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she > also told me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm > sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or > play with it. Of course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch > ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, > I did the test suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long > White Cane": I took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at > a speed I normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The > idea is to stop as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to > the wall. Apparantly, if  the cane is the right length, you should be > able to take two full steps after your cane detects > an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I > was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane > recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or > patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. > My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have > long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining  the "step left- swing > right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got > tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. > Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty > of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. > I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back;  some blocks had minimal > street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I > felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel > was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). > The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead > the way and my thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should > wander on a pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track > of what block I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I > was able to easily figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% > of the downsteps on curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. > That little 4 inch drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser > that the curb was there. >  Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride > out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane > knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel > more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I > dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend > to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk > enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my > skills. > I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident > "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost > confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost > confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty > enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane > dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a while, > I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew I did not > want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle in my future > if I continued that way. > Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near > broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link > fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the > tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence > provided enough pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal > position. The internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal > position, but I have the feeling that I may need something as strong as > an aluminum cane. > Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive > experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really > nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they > make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides > any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd > like to be able to hear myself think. > A couple of questions: > How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How > do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still > have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street > signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I > really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to > find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads?  Is the > wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? What > is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? I was > walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, > is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or > should I take it down a notch? Is it a good idea for me to teach myself > cane travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? > Thanks, > Jim > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 10:46:57 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:46:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 In-Reply-To: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <75E519C3B10D43E5B4B719B89EBD78FE@Jessica> Jim. I'm going to say no it's not a good idea for you to be trying to teach yourself how to travel with a cane. I've been using a cane on and off for over ten years now. And, I've always had an O&M instructor working with me. I'm also legally blind best vision corrected between 20/100 and 20/200. In the time I've been using the cane I've had only six different O&M instructors my last three years of high school I had three different ones. And, everytime I move to a different state I get one until I become fimiliar with the area where I live. Let me tell you now most O&M instructors their idea of a night O&M lesson is to take you out at Dusk and that is what they consider a night lesson. I believe that this is because they technically won't get paid overtime if they really wanted to do a night lesson with a student. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:00 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Hey all, I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M instructor ever, me! You see, the VR O/M instructor came to my house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. Apparantly, if the cane is the right length, you should be able to take two full steps after your cane detects an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining the "step left- swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back; some blocks had minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb was there. Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my skills. I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle in my future if I continued that way. Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. A couple of questions: How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads? Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:31:29 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:31:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada References: Message-ID: <013301c9e9bf$009bb6c0$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> wonderful. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada > Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would pass > on > an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news letter, which > came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news story, but it is pretty > informative, and I think most of you will be pleased by the outcome. > > Marc > > Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind > Passengers Discriminatory > By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer > > In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal [The > Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten who is > deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he cover the > costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal found that this > blanket decision did not allow for individual assessments of disabled > travelers and it had a discriminatory impact on Mr. Morten as a person > with > a disability. > > At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he > travels > independently around the city where he lives. He is accompanied by his > guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods that he uses to > communicate when travelling. For quick communication such as asking for > directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell the words in block > letters > on his palm. He indicated that people have no trouble understanding very > quickly how to communicate with him. > > Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has a > large > button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of travelling > on > public transit. If a transit employee approached him to ask if he needed > help, the transit employee would tap him on the shoulder and put Mr. > Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could > identify > the person as a transit employee. He would let the person know that he is > not lost by writing O K on a hand. > > If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten writes out > the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the amount of > the > fare by drawing the number on his palm. > > When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that he > was > deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. Morten's > disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an attendant to > fly > with him and he would be required to pay the cost of the attendant. The > Air > Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation attendant's decision. The Meda > desk is part of Air Canada's reservations department. The practice that is > to be followed when a person making a reservation indicates that they are > a > person with a disability who may require some accommodations while flying > is > that the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and from > his > or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may need while > flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not medically trained. > The > medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational Health > Services department who review the medical information and determine > whether > the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without conditions. The > Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed physicians, > occupational > health nurses and medical officer assistants. > > The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person would be > self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of passenger's > ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability to make his or > her need for assistance known and the ability of the passenger to move > from > his or her seat should that be necessary in an emergency. > > An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person with a > disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine whether an > individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. The Air Canada > witness said that if the individual was not able to see or hear the cabin > crew to receive information about safety procedures in an emergency > situation, that individual would be considered non self-reliant for > airline > travel. > > At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not > followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the > reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten > required > an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure was to the > questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. Morten and his > doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health Services department of > Air Canada. > > Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly form > until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to fly with an > attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's doctor until a > couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed form was not > received > by the Occupation Health Services office before the date that Mr. Morten > was > to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada imposed > on > Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed on other > passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten was directly > related to his disability and the Tribunal found that this condition > imposed > by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. Morten to fly with an > attendant affected his freedom to travel and increased his cost of > travelling. > > Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant > discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the > discrimination could be justified. > > In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant > requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this > restriction > was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement was adopted in > the > good faith belief that it was necessary for passenger safety and whether > allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would have imposed undue hardship on > Air > Canada, considering health, safety and cost. > > Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each passenger's > needs is not impossible especially since individual assessment is the > procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to determine fitness to > fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the > discriminatory > policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his reservation. Air > Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's individual needs and > capabilities and because of this failure it could not justify the > discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to accommodate the > needs > of disabled persons must be founded on their actual capacities and the > real > risks posed thereby, rather than on discriminatory assumptions based on > stereotypes of disability." > > The Tribunal ordered: > Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] and > Mr. > Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the > communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the inherent > risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are currently allowed > to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency situations, many > able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process and act on > safety-related emergency instructions. > > It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully redress > the > discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and prevent its > recurrence. > > The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal > suffering > that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's decision: > > Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. Morten's > sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his independence over the > years and the effects on his physical well-being, we consider that an > award > of $10,000 is an appropriate amount for pain and suffering. > > The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at > http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 11:40:47 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:40:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 References: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014901c9e9c0$4db94570$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> That's wonderful that you just got out there and started using. I am also glad to here that you felt confedent in your self. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:00 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Hey all, I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M instructor ever, me! You see, the VR O/M instructor came to my house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. Apparantly, if the cane is the right length, you should be able to take two full steps after your cane detects an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining the "step left- swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back; some blocks had minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb was there. Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my skills. I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle in my future if I continued that way. Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. A couple of questions: How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads? Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:03:27 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:03:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: References: <487615.51299.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4383d01d0906091713y1f7d615cge2137c9958dc192b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906100703t13f23e02ndc02111081126253@mail.gmail.com> Ok. But most airlines say, "You must be able to "see" the exit." Why is this and how can we justify being able to sit in an exit row? Beth On 6/10/09, Monika Reinholz wrote: > > Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the others, > therefore having more space for someones legs to be comfortable during > flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even though Im ony 5'5" because > its more comfortable for the legs. I can understand the kid rule they have > for the row but I believe everyone knows what they can do best. If a blind > person knows s/he can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and let > them sit where they are most comfortable. > > Monika > > Monika Reinholz > > > >> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 >> From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >> travelalone; Burnaby >> >> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency >> row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows >> anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. >> Beth >> >> On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: >> > Hey all, >> > >> > Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people >> > are >> > not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an >> > emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. >> > BTW, >> > I start cane travel training today. >> > >> > Jim >> > >> > "From compromise and things half done, >> > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> > And when at last the fight is won, >> > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 10 14:56:51 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:56:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 In-Reply-To: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090610105651.k1sy47oq4ok8g0ow@webmail.utoronto.ca> hi Jim, Firstly, congratulations on going it alone so soon. That's really great, and with that attitude you'll learn quickly. Your wrist shouldn't hurt though, so perhaps checking with an instructor once you get one to ensure you're holding it right would be a good idea. Don't slow down just because of the cane, as long as you're not reckless you should be fine. don't lose faith in your instructor yet. Referring to her as "the worst instructor ever" probably isn't the best way to begin your relationship. once you have more than one instructor, you'll be better able to judge who's good and who's not. Hearing the cane can be helpful, as sometimes it can tell you if you need to avoid a puddle jor if you're coming to a sewer grate. You'll get used to the sound eventually. roller tips are louder than most, so if it really bothers you, you might consider geting a diferent tip. As for getting stuck in things, this will happen less as you develop your technique. This is also reduced if you slide your cane rather than tap it. As someone who has very little useable vision, I always find it helpful to know where I am all the time. That being said, using the vision you have and flashlights like you suggested makes sense for you. As for focussing on cane travel, remember it is an essential skill you must learn. As you become more comfortable with it, you'll focus on it less and less. sorry for my verbosity, but i hope this helps. Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst > O/M instructor ever, me! You see,  the VR O/M instructor came to my > house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. > She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of > June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a > training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy > and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane > for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a > roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the > author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, > swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally > would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as > soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. > Apparantly, if  the cane is the right length, you should be able to > take two full steps after your cane detects > an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. > I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane > recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or > patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. > > My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I > have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining  the "step left- > swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my > wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less > effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know > from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters > very quickly. > > I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back;  some blocks had > minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh > blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the > cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on > the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I > allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander > (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). > Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I > brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out > where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs > that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch > drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb > was there. > >  Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride > out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the > cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to > feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact > that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend > to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk > enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my > skills. > > I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident > "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost > confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost > confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty > enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane > dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a > while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew > I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle > in my future if I continued that way. > > Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near > broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain > link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. > Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and > apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove > the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the > tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I > may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. > > Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive > experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was > really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. > Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the > cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via > touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. > > A couple of questions: > How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? > How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I > still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out > street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and > 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or > is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those > main roads?  Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned > to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for > the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as > fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to > expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? > Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I > really wait for the O/M instructor? > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From hfurney at bgsu.edu Wed Jun 10 16:29:36 2009 From: hfurney at bgsu.edu (Hannah G Furney) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:29:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 In-Reply-To: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023FF489B0008B4D9E6729B9F01EB224364640501B@MAIL6.bgsu.edu> Jim, Have you thought about going to an NFB traning center, to learn more blindness skills? Also, there are NFB canes out there too, to me at least I like them better than the other ones. They weigh less, and also they are supposed to be really long so that they can give early detection. Hannah Furney Cru NABS OABs NFB NFB- Ohio NFB of Greater Toledo- Board Member At Large ________________________________________ From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed [jim275_2 at yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:00 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Hey all, I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M instructor ever, me! You see, the VR O/M instructor came to my house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. Apparantly, if the cane is the right length, you should be able to take two full steps after your cane detects an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining the "step left- swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back; some blocks had minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb was there. Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my skills. I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle in my future if I continued that way. Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. A couple of questions: How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads? Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hfurney%40bgsu.edu From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:13:02 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:13:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <4A2ED61F.2040907@aol.com> References: <20090609182600.GA464@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A2ED61F.2040907@aol.com> Message-ID: <20090610171302.GJ1330@yumi.bluecherry.net> Haben, I read that, and I know how they describe text entry on the current iPhone. It's better than detractors claim, but nowhere near as easy nor as accurate as Apple indicates. Apple is promising to give developers a little bit more access to the iPhone without the jailbreak process so it is at least possible that someone could write a Bluetooth keyboard input method if the iPhone does not include one. If not, I'm sure it'll be a jailbreak option. I doubt you'll see support for the Esys 12, BrailleConnect 12 or similar device integrated via any jailbreak-requiring software unless it was written by a blind Mac user who has and uses the device. If that kind of thing is going to be supported, it almost certainly would have to come from Apple to be done right. Joseph On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 02:37:35PM -0700, Haben Girma wrote: > > Here's what Apple says about typing on the iPhone 3GS: > > Entering Text > When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, VoiceOver > echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and again to > confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver speak each > completed word instead of and in addition to individual characters as > you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves the insertion point > cursor left and right within the text so you can edit a word just as > easily and precisely as typing a new word. > > > To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word > prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word > incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you’ll hear a sound effect > and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just keep typing to > ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. > > > It sounds like there would be a huge learning curve for blind users, but > the end result could be fast typing on a fast and feature-packed phone. > > Haben > > T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Brice, >> >> So, I think I'm hearing you say that you've been an anti-apple-snob >> and they finally came out with a device that even you think sounds >> really cool? *grin* >> >> Honestly, Apple and the hardcore Apple fan base really kind of ask for >> it sometimes, I freely admit. But what has me excited about the iPhone >> 3GS is not that it has a screen reader, but that it has the screen >> reader built-in to a device that sells for $199 with contract. >> >> Of course, AT&T will make you pay for their data plan with the phone >> and I'm not even remotely sure how useful the data plan would be to a >> blind user since I don't see how the iPhone 3GS handles text entry >> without a tactile keyboard. But if Apple's got that figured out, it's >> a $200 smart phone, accessible out of the box. >> >> That's something to get excited about. Now put a real camera in the >> thing Apple, so we can have iKNFB Reader. *grin* >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:56:46AM -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >>> >>> I'm happy with my N82. >>> >>> >>> >>> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>> >>> >>> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, >>> the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly >>> fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>> are just a popular craze. >>> >>> >>> >>> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, >>> less popular but more feature-filled products. >>> >>> >>> >>> But this ... >>> >>> >>> >>> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>> press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>> >>> Brice >>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Vision >>>> >>>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally revolutionary >>>> screen reader, and other innovative accessibility features that >>>> make it easier to use for those with impaired vision. >>>> >>>> >>>> VoiceOver >>>> >>>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on the Mac is now a >>>> standard feature on the iPhone 3G S. It’s the world’s first >>>> gesture-based screen reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>> >>>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable is that you control >>>> it using simple gestures that let you physically interact with >>>> items on screen. It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>>> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or endlessly pressing >>>> tiny arrow keys to find what you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, >>>> you simply touch the screen to hear a description of the item under >>>> your finger, then gesture with a double-tap, drag, or flick to >>>> control the phone. >>>> >>>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any screen reader you've >>>> ever used before. Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>> elements on the screen, but struggle to communicate where each >>>> element is located or provide information about adjoining objects. >>>> This contextual information is very important but typically >>>> filtered out by other screen readers. For example, “off-screen” >>>> models used by traditional screen readers to represent applications >>>> and web pages intentionally strip away contextual information and >>>> describe web pages as a list or menu of items. But with VoiceOver >>>> on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>>> >>>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s touchscreen, you interact >>>> directly with objects on the screen and can naturally understand >>>> their location and context. So, when you touch the upper-left >>>> corner of the screen, you'll hear what’s in the upper left corner >>>> of a web page, and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>>> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing new sense of >>>> context and relationship between the items you hear. For many, >>>> VoiceOver on iPhone will provide, perhaps for the first time, a >>>> true sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of >>>> what they are. >>>> >>>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the screen, including >>>> status information such as battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular >>>> network signal levels, the cellular network provider, and time of >>>> day. It even lets you know when the display changes to landscape or >>>> portrait orientation, and when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>> >>>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it to a speed that >>>> best suits your listening ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound >>>> effects to alert you when an application opens, when the screen is >>>> updated, when a message dialog appears, and more. And, when >>>> Voiceover is talking, the volume of background sounds and music are >>>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, so you can >>>> clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>> >>>> >>>> It speaks your language >>>> >>>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 languages >>>> including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), >>>> Dutch, English (US), English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Polish, >>>> Portuguese (Brazil), Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish >>>> (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >>>> >>>> >>>> Getting started >>>> >>>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. There’s nothing >>>> extra to purchase or install. All you need is the iPhone 3G S, >>>> iTunes 8.2 or later, and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone >>>> and enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using iTunes with a >>>> compatible screen reader like VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and >>>> GW-Micro Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista (sold >>>> separately). When you activate iPhone using iTunes, you can enable >>>> VoiceOver on the iPhone to start using it right away. Sighted users >>>> can also enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using the >>>> Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >>>> >>>> >>>> How it works >>>> >>>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, but simple set of >>>> gestures to control the iPhone. For example, instead of tapping to >>>> click a button or select an item, you tap to hear a description of >>>> the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>> >>>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black rectangle called >>>> the VoiceOver cursor appears around it. The VoiceOver cursor is >>>> displayed for the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, VoiceOver includes a >>>> screen curtain that turns off the display so no one can read it >>>> without your knowledge. >>>> >>>> In addition to touching and dragging around the screen, you can >>>> also flick left and right to move the VoiceOver cursor precisely to >>>> the next or previous item on the screen­no matter how big or small >>>> it is. By flicking, you have precise control of what you hear even >>>> when it might otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>> >>>> >>>> Entering Text >>>> >>>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, >>>> VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, >>>> and again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>> speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual >>>> characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves >>>> the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you >>>> can edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >>>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>> >>>> >>>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >>>> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >>>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll hear a sound >>>> effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just >>>> keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone >>>> type it for you. >>>> >>>> >>>> The Rotor >>>> >>>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual control called a >>>> “rotor.” Turning the rotor­ by rotating two fingers on the screen >>>> as if you were turning an actual dial ­ changes the way VoiceOver >>>> moves through a document based on a setting you choose. For >>>> example, a flick up or down might move through text word by word. >>>> But when you choose the “character” setting, each time you flick up >>>> or down VoiceOver will move through the text character by character >>>> ­ perfect when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>> >>>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. When you’re on a >>>> web page, the rotor contains the names of common items, such as >>>> headers, links, tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>>> then flick up and down to move to the previous or next occurrence >>>> of that item on the page, skipping over items in between. >>>> >>>> >>>> Applications >>>> >>>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in applications that come >>>> with iPhone 3G S, such as Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and >>>> Maps. So, you can place and receive calls, surf the web, text and >>>> email your friends, check your stocks and the weather, and much, >>>> much more. Apple is also working with iPhone software developers so >>>> they can make their applications VoiceOver compatible. >>>> Learn >>>> more >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>> >>>> >>>> Voice Control >>>> >>>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice to play music and >>>> make a phone call. Just press and hold the home button, listen for >>>> the audio prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, or >>>> playlist you want to hear. You can pause, play, change tracks, even >>>> shuffle your music. >>>> >>>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or telephone number of >>>> the person you want to call. iPhone 3G S understands 21 different >>>> languages. >>>> Learn >>>> more >>>> >>>> >>>> Zoom >>>> >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in and out specific >>>> elements such as images in Mail, or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom >>>> lets you magnify the entire screen of any application you’re using >>>> to help you see what’s on the display. Zoom can be enabled on >>>> iPhone 3G S using iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >>>> yourself or someone else, or later, using the Accessibility menu in >>>> the Settings application on the iPhone. >>>> >>>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight >>>> screens­even with applications you purchase from the App store. >>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>> >>>> >>>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly zooms in and out >>>> 200% and you can double-tap and drag three fingers to dynamically >>>> adjust the magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when zoomed, >>>> you can continue using all of the familiar flick, pinch, tap and >>>> other iPhone gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom can >>>> also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >>>> auto-text. >>>> >>>> >>>> White On Black >>>> >>>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, iPhone 3G S provides >>>> an option to change the display to White On Black. This reverse >>>> video affect works in all applications including the Home, Unlock, >>>> and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >>>> >>>> >>>> Speak Auto-text >>>> >>>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you finish typing it or >>>> a correction when a word is misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks >>>> these suggestions so you can hear them when they’re presented. When >>>> zoomed, for example, the suggestion might not be visible on screen, >>>> but you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If you’re using >>>> VoiceOver, you won't have to interrupt your typing and touch the >>>> suggestion to hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>> >>>> >>>> Tactile Buttons >>>> >>>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible physical buttons used to >>>> control the phone: the Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; >>>> the Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, located on the >>>> upper-left edge; and the Home button, centered below the display. >>>> >>>> >>>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>> >>>> For improved email readability, you can increase the default font >>>> size of email text from Medium (the default) to Large, Extra-large, >>>> or Giant. >>>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>> >>>> >>>> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>> >>>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a high-performance >>>> microphone built into the cable. Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm >>>> stereo headphone jack and the headset lets you control music >>>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the built-in remote >>>> control button. >>>> >>>> Several add-on products are also available to work with iPhone that >>>> can help those with hearing disabilities, including a hearing >>>> aid-compatible induction ear loop from >>>> TecEar, wireless remote >>>> headset from Oticon, and others. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>> >>>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in speakerphone, >>>> which you can also use to listen to Visual Voicemail, music, >>>> podcasts, and video. >>>> >>>> >>>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>> >>>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both audible and visual >>>> alerts. You can activate alerts for phone calls, text messages, >>>> incoming and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also offers an >>>> audio option confirming keyboard clicks. You can even set incoming >>>> calls to display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>> >>>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of playing a tone. To >>>> ensure that you never miss a notification, you can also have iPhone >>>> vibrate and play an audio alert. >>>> >>>> >>>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>> >>>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to individuals in your >>>> contacts list, using the ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit >>>> the iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download additional >>>> ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>> >>>> >>>> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>> >>>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML format designed >>>> with accessibility in mind. You can read the guide using your >>>> favorite screen reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>>> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>> Hearing >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:16:32 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:16:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <922c02e40906091542p3621fb18lea35df6356450ba0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090609182600.GA464@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A2ED61F.2040907@aol.com> <922c02e40906091542p3621fb18lea35df6356450ba0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090610171632.GK1330@yumi.bluecherry.net> If they finally bothered to include a BT keyboard profile, yes. Prior to the invention of the iPhone, Steve Jobs used a Treo. Many people remember the Stowaway keyboards for the original Handspring Treo and Visor, which turned them into efficient text-based meeting note taking devices. Here's hoping for that BT profile, either built-in or via jailbreak. Joseph On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 04:42:51PM -0600, Sydney Walker Freedman wrote: >Couldn't you use one of those little bluetooth keyboard with it? > >On 6/9/09, Haben Girma wrote: >> >> Here's what Apple says about typing on the iPhone 3GS: >> >> Entering Text >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, VoiceOver >> echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and again to >> confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver speak each >> completed word instead of and in addition to individual characters as >> you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves the insertion point >> cursor left and right within the text so you can edit a word just as >> easily and precisely as typing a new word. >> >> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you’ll hear a sound effect >> and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just keep typing to >> ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >> >> >> It sounds like there would be a huge learning curve for blind users, but >> the end result could be fast typing on a fast and feature-packed phone. >> >> Haben >> >> T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>> Brice, >>> >>> So, I think I'm hearing you say that you've been an anti-apple-snob >>> and they finally came out with a device that even you think sounds >>> really cool? *grin* >>> >>> Honestly, Apple and the hardcore Apple fan base really kind of ask for >>> it sometimes, I freely admit. But what has me excited about the iPhone >>> 3GS is not that it has a screen reader, but that it has the screen >>> reader built-in to a device that sells for $199 with contract. >>> >>> Of course, AT&T will make you pay for their data plan with the phone >>> and I'm not even remotely sure how useful the data plan would be to a >>> blind user since I don't see how the iPhone 3GS handles text entry >>> without a tactile keyboard. But if Apple's got that figured out, it's >>> a $200 smart phone, accessible out of the box. >>> >>> That's something to get excited about. Now put a real camera in the >>> thing Apple, so we can have iKNFB Reader. *grin* >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:56:46AM -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm happy with my N82. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>>> >>>> >>>> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, >>>> the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>>> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly >>>> fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>>> are just a popular craze. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, >>>> less popular but more feature-filled products. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But this ... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>>> press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Vision >>>>> >>>>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally revolutionary >>>>> screen reader, and other innovative accessibility features that make >>>>> it easier to use for those with impaired vision. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver >>>>> >>>>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on the Mac is now a >>>>> standard feature on the iPhone 3G S. It’s the world’s first >>>>> gesture-based screen reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>>> >>>>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable is that you control >>>>> it using simple gestures that let you physically interact with items >>>>> on screen. It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of memorizing >>>>> hundreds of keyboard commands, or endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys >>>>> to find what you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply touch >>>>> the screen to hear a description of the item under your finger, then >>>>> gesture with a double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any screen reader you've >>>>> ever used before. Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>>> elements on the screen, but struggle to communicate where each >>>>> element is located or provide information about adjoining objects. >>>>> This contextual information is very important but typically filtered >>>>> out by other screen readers. For example, “off-screen” models used >>>>> by traditional screen readers to represent applications and web >>>>> pages intentionally strip away contextual information and describe >>>>> web pages as a list or menu of items. But with VoiceOver on iPhone >>>>> 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>>>> >>>>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s touchscreen, you interact >>>>> directly with objects on the screen and can naturally understand >>>>> their location and context. So, when you touch the upper-left corner >>>>> of the screen, you'll hear what’s in the upper left corner of a web >>>>> page, and as you drag your finger around the screen, you'll learn >>>>> what’s nearby, providing an amazing new sense of context and >>>>> relationship between the items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on >>>>> iPhone will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true sense of how >>>>> things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. >>>>> >>>>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the screen, including >>>>> status information such as battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network >>>>> signal levels, the cellular network provider, and time of day. It >>>>> even lets you know when the display changes to landscape or portrait >>>>> orientation, and when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>>> >>>>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it to a speed that >>>>> best suits your listening ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound >>>>> effects to alert you when an application opens, when the screen is >>>>> updated, when a message dialog appears, and more. And, when >>>>> Voiceover is talking, the volume of background sounds and music are >>>>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, so you can clearly >>>>> hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It speaks your language >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 languages including >>>>> Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, >>>>> English (US), English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Polish, >>>>> Portuguese (Brazil), Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish >>>>> (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Getting started >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. There’s nothing extra >>>>> to purchase or install. All you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 >>>>> or later, and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and enable >>>>> VoiceOver without sighted assistance using iTunes with a compatible >>>>> screen reader like VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>>>> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista (sold separately). >>>>> When you activate iPhone using iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on >>>>> the iPhone to start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>>>> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using the Accessibility >>>>> menu in the Settings application. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> How it works >>>>> >>>>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, but simple set of >>>>> gestures to control the iPhone. For example, instead of tapping to >>>>> click a button or select an item, you tap to hear a description of >>>>> the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>>> >>>>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black rectangle called the >>>>> VoiceOver cursor appears around it. The VoiceOver cursor is >>>>> displayed for the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, VoiceOver includes a >>>>> screen curtain that turns off the display so no one can read it >>>>> without your knowledge. >>>>> >>>>> In addition to touching and dragging around the screen, you can also >>>>> flick left and right to move the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the >>>>> next or previous item on the screen­no matter how big or small it >>>>> is. By flicking, you have precise control of what you hear even when >>>>> it might otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Entering Text >>>>> >>>>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, >>>>> VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and >>>>> again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>>> speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual >>>>> characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves >>>>> the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you can >>>>> edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >>>>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >>>>> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >>>>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll hear a sound >>>>> effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just >>>>> keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type >>>>> it for you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Rotor >>>>> >>>>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual control called a “rotor.” >>>>> Turning the rotor­ by rotating two fingers on the screen as if you >>>>> were turning an actual dial ­ changes the way VoiceOver moves >>>>> through a document based on a setting you choose. For example, a >>>>> flick up or down might move through text word by word. But when you >>>>> choose the “character” setting, each time you flick up or down >>>>> VoiceOver will move through the text character by character ­ >>>>> perfect when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>>> >>>>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. When you’re on a >>>>> web page, the rotor contains the names of common items, such as >>>>> headers, links, tables, images, and more. You select a setting, then >>>>> flick up and down to move to the previous or next occurrence of that >>>>> item on the page, skipping over items in between. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Applications >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in applications that come with >>>>> iPhone 3G S, such as Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. >>>>> So, you can place and receive calls, surf the web, text and email >>>>> your friends, check your stocks and the weather, and much, much >>>>> more. Apple is also working with iPhone software developers so they >>>>> can make their applications VoiceOver compatible. >>>>> Learn >>>>> more >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Voice Control >>>>> >>>>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice to play music and >>>>> make a phone call. Just press and hold the home button, listen for >>>>> the audio prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, or >>>>> playlist you want to hear. You can pause, play, change tracks, even >>>>> shuffle your music. >>>>> >>>>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or telephone number of >>>>> the person you want to call. iPhone 3G S understands 21 different >>>>> languages. >>>>> Learn >>>>> >>>>> more >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Zoom >>>>> >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in and out specific >>>>> elements such as images in Mail, or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom >>>>> lets you magnify the entire screen of any application you’re using >>>>> to help you see what’s on the display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone >>>>> 3G S using iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for yourself or >>>>> someone else, or later, using the Accessibility menu in the Settings >>>>> application on the iPhone. >>>>> >>>>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight >>>>> screens­even with applications you purchase from the App store. >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly zooms in and out >>>>> 200% and you can double-tap and drag three fingers to dynamically >>>>> adjust the magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when zoomed, >>>>> you can continue using all of the familiar flick, pinch, tap and >>>>> other iPhone gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom can >>>>> also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> White On Black >>>>> >>>>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, iPhone 3G S provides >>>>> an option to change the display to White On Black. This reverse >>>>> video affect works in all applications including the Home, Unlock, >>>>> and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Speak Auto-text >>>>> >>>>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you finish typing it or a >>>>> correction when a word is misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>>>> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re presented. When >>>>> zoomed, for example, the suggestion might not be visible on screen, >>>>> but you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If you’re using >>>>> VoiceOver, you won't have to interrupt your typing and touch the >>>>> suggestion to hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tactile Buttons >>>>> >>>>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible physical buttons used to >>>>> control the phone: the Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; >>>>> the Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, located on the >>>>> upper-left edge; and the Home button, centered below the display. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>>> >>>>> For improved email readability, you can increase the default font >>>>> size of email text from Medium (the default) to Large, Extra-large, >>>>> or Giant. >>>>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>>> >>>>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a high-performance >>>>> microphone built into the cable. Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm >>>>> stereo headphone jack and the headset lets you control music >>>>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the built-in remote >>>>> control button. >>>>> >>>>> Several add-on products are also available to work with iPhone that >>>>> can help those with hearing disabilities, including a hearing >>>>> aid-compatible induction ear loop from >>>>> TecEar, wireless remote >>>>> headset from Oticon, and others. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>>> >>>>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in speakerphone, >>>>> which you can also use to listen to Visual Voicemail, music, >>>>> podcasts, and video. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>>> >>>>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both audible and visual >>>>> alerts. You can activate alerts for phone calls, text messages, >>>>> incoming and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also offers an >>>>> audio option confirming keyboard clicks. You can even set incoming >>>>> calls to display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>>> >>>>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of playing a tone. To ensure >>>>> that you never miss a notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate >>>>> and play an audio alert. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>>> >>>>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to individuals in your contacts >>>>> list, using the ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the iTunes >>>>> Store to create, purchase, and download additional ringtones of your >>>>> favorite songs (sold separately). >>>>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>>> >>>>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML format designed >>>>> with accessibility in mind. You can read the guide using your >>>>> favorite screen reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and using >>>>> Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>>> Hearing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freedmas%40stolaf.edu >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From oceanrls at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 17:20:44 2009 From: oceanrls at hotmail.com (Rachel Jacobs) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:20:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Congratulations to all scholarship winners, see you at convention References: <00F22BDC64EC4E2490A5CE9FA9EDEC4A@userf9b4fa60eb> Message-ID: Thank you so much. Rachel Jacobs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:06 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Congratulations to all scholarship winners,see you at convention > Hello all, > > I haven't been active on the list in a couple of weeks, but I do want to > congratulate all scholarship winners of 2009. > > It will be very good to hear from you durring convention as you accept the > investment of the National Federation of the Blind in your academic > future. You will receive many things durring the weekend, most valuable in > my mind is the assurance that you can and should pursue your dreams with > confidence, and determination. > > Antonio Guimaraes > > If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup > trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of > highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary > works in Braille. > > Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you. > http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169 > Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oceanrls%40hotmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:28:58 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:28:58 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Graduate Work Opportunity In-Reply-To: <01E4173F5C004F539339FD8E283E6073@lcbruston.pri> References: <01E4173F5C004F539339FD8E283E6073@lcbruston.pri> Message-ID: I think this has been circulated before, but it looks like they still need people to apply for this great opportunity! Arielle ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Pamela Allen Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:46:57 -0500 Subject: Graduate Work Opportunity To: Daphne Mitchell , Susan Clark , Julie Russell , Bethel Murphy Cc: Arielle Silverman This was sent to me. Please share with others. Maybe we can find some good candidates. ------ I am passing along a request for disabled students to consider what looks like a great opportunity for graduate students to consider a marketing degree and career opportunity - I wanted to let you know about a great opportunity here at Wake Forest where you can get a FREE education and get PAID while you're doing it.. Our Dean of the Schools of Business is the former CEO of PepsiCo and very committed to diversity. He's gone around to his CEO friends, who have agreed to donate a bunch of money to pay tuition and fees, provide a stipend, and a job, to diverse students. The details are below. The problem is, response to the program has been dismal! As a faculty member, I would be embarrassed for him to have to tell his CEO friends, "thanks so much for your donation, but unfortunately I have to give it back because we couldn't find any students who wanted it." So, I need your help. Please contact me if you, or ANYONE you know is interested in the program. I want to take advantage of it and help out as many young scholars as I can. Don't worry about whether or not you (or they) have taken the GMAT, etc. All you need to do at this point is JUST APPLY. In business, you have to act when the opportunity is presented, and that is now. The Master of Art in Management program is designed specifically for liberal arts majors only. The MA degree program is a 10 month intense study of the basic functional areas of business. After graduation and working for approximately two years, all MA graduates are eligible to apply to Wake Forest as part of the MA/MBA joint degree program and get the MBA in one year. The new Dean, Steve Reinemund, has created a new scholarship for diverse students pursuing the MA degree called the Corporate Fellowship. The Corporate Fellowship provides full tuition and a $21,000 stipend to cover living expenses. Additionally, each Corporate Fellow will participate in a practicum. The practicum has two components, educational and professional development. Each student will be assigned a mentor that is a high level executive with their sponsor corporation. The mentor will oversee an educational project covering 4 of the functional areas of business using their own corporation as the subject. The student will visit the corporation 3 - 4 times during the program to present his/her results of their research project. Additionally, the "Professional Development" component of the fellowship provides career coaching and leadership development for the students. The goal for the corporation is to be able to groom and hopefully, hire a top candidate from a diverse background for their organization. Of course, there is no obligation that the students accept any offer of employment. Still, the student benefits, even if they are not ultimately hired by their sponsor corporation in that they have the MA degree and the type of experience that will make them more marketable. Wake Forest University has an opportunity for minority students to attend their MBA program for FREE, and so far, the response has been very poor. Please, please pass along this opportunity to your friends, families, and networks to see if there is an interest. This is a great school and a tremendous opportunity to attend a top graduate school. See details below. The contact person for anyone who is interested is: Derrick S. Boone, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Marketing Room 3139 Worrell Professional Center Babcock Graduate School of Management Wake Forest University 1834 Wake Forest Drive Winston-Salem , NC 27109-8758 derrick.boone at mba.wfu.edu John emailed him a nice response. Love and Blessings, LaVonne 1 Pamela Allen Executive Director 800-234-4166 www.lcb-ruston.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:48:59 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:48:59 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 In-Reply-To: <20090610105651.k1sy47oq4ok8g0ow@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090610105651.k1sy47oq4ok8g0ow@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Congratulations on getting your first cane, and especially on taking it for a test-drive on your own! It's great to see that you've already begun feeling the confidence and ease of travel that the cane brings. Don't worry, everyone's cane travel journey is paved with plenty of less-than-fun experiences and blunders as we get used to the process. I would highly recommend that you order a long NFB cane (one that's 2-4 inches shorter than you are). You can get one for free from the NFB Website if money is an issue. It's also great that you will be coming to convention. By all means bring your cane and/or pick up a long NFB cane at convention to practice. I can talk to some folks and see if we can find someone to give you a little informal lesson on technique and basic hotel navigation, if you are interested. The other element to nonvisual travel besides good cane technique, which I'm sure you already figured out, is keeping track of where you are and where you're going. This process is tricky for many of us at the beginning, but is relatively easy to master with a few simple skills. Perhaps the skill that might seem most foreign to you as someone who used to be fully sighted is keeping track of cardinal directions--north, east, south, and west--and using these to stay on track. The sun is your friend--in the morning it comes from the east, at midday it comes from the south, and in the late afternoon it comes from the west. Try walking around outside during the day and keeping track of which cardinal direction you're going in--and use a compass if necessary--and then try doing it again at night when you don't have sun cues, until you get used to it. Listening to what side the traffic is on and counting how many blocks you've walked is also part of it--hopefully your instructor will teach you these things if you're proactive about it. You could maybe also talk to someone in your affiliate, like Dan Burke or Jim Marks, about having a few extra cane travel/orientation lessons before you see your instructor again. And remember, getting lost is just part of the process and something all of us have experienced--all of us have stories (some funny, others painful!) It's awesome that you're not afraid to go out, explore and teach yourself new things along the way. Arielle On 6/11/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > hi Jim, > Firstly, congratulations on going it alone so soon. That's really > great, and with that attitude you'll learn quickly. Your wrist > shouldn't hurt though, so perhaps checking with an instructor once you > get one to ensure you're holding it right would be a good idea. Don't > slow down just because of the cane, as long as you're not reckless you > should be fine. don't lose faith in your instructor yet. Referring to > her as "the worst instructor ever" probably isn't the best way to > begin your relationship. once you have more than one instructor, > you'll be better able to judge who's good and who's not. > Hearing the cane can be helpful, as sometimes it can tell you if you > need to avoid a puddle jor if you're coming to a sewer grate. You'll > get used to the sound eventually. roller tips are louder than most, so > if it really bothers you, you might consider geting a diferent tip. As > for getting stuck in things, this will happen less as you develop your > technique. This is also reduced if you slide your cane rather than tap > it. > As someone who has very little useable vision, I always find it > helpful to know where I am all the time. That being said, using the > vision you have and flashlights like you suggested makes sense for > you. As for focussing on cane travel, remember it is an essential > skill you must learn. As you become more comfortable with it, you'll > focus on it less and less. > sorry for my verbosity, but i hope this helps. > Sarah > > > > > Quoting Jim Reed : > >> Hey all, >> >> I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst >> O/M instructor ever, me! You see,  the VR O/M instructor came to my >> house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. >> She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of >> June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a >> training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy >> and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane >> for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a >> roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the >> author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, >> swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally >> would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as >> soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. >> Apparantly, if  the cane is the right length, you should be able to >> take two full steps after your cane detects >> an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. >> I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane >> recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or >> patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. >> >> My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I >> have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining  the "step left- >> swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my >> wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less >> effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know >> from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters >> very quickly. >> >> I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back;  some blocks had >> minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh >> blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the >> cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on >> the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I >> allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander >> (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). >> Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I >> brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out >> where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs >> that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch >> drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb >> was there. >> >>  Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride >> out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the >> cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to >> feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact >> that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend >> to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk >> enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my >> skills. >> >> I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident >> "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost >> confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost >> confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty >> enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane >> dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a >> while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew >> I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle >> in my future if I continued that way. >> >> Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near >> broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain >> link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. >> Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and >> apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove >> the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the >> tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I >> may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. >> >> Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive >> experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was >> really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. >> Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the >> cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via >> touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. >> >> A couple of questions: >> How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? >> How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I >> still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out >> street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and >> 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or >> is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those >> main roads?  Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned >> to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for >> the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as >> fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to >> expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? >> Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I >> really wait for the O/M instructor? >> >> Thanks, >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From aguimaraes at nbp.org Wed Jun 10 17:54:23 2009 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:54:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 References: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2076D826C91A45539A2ACA5505367935@nbp2.local> Jim, Your cane is just too heavy. You can probably use something 75 percent lighter if you switched to an NFB cane, or an Iowa cane. NFB canes come in a collapsible, or straight model, and the Iowa is only available in a straight cane. You can get one of both, so you can try them out, and have the collapsible for going in doors to restaurants and such, and have a cane that is easy to store. You can probably get one of each for $60. For the Iowa folks, call (515) 281-1333. I prefer the Iowa canes for the durability, and ruggedness. They are coated with a texture that makes them more resilient, and scratch-resistant. I can't say much for how tall your cane should be since I don't know your height, but I use a cane that comes up to my eye brow. Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:00 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Hey all, I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M instructor ever, me! You see, the VR O/M instructor came to my house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. Apparantly, if the cane is the right length, you should be able to take two full steps after your cane detects an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining the "step left- swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back; some blocks had minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb was there. Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my skills. I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle in my future if I continued that way. Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. A couple of questions: How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads? Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 19:54:32 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:54:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Oregon votes to close school for the blind Message-ID: <20090610195432.GO1330@yumi.bluecherry.net> Hi everyone, Oregon's senate has voted 22 to 8 to close the Oregon School for the Blind. I've been told that the National Federation of the Blind of Oregon, the Oregon Council of the Blind, parents of students attending the school, and other stakeholders are weight their legal options at this time. Official word will likely follow, as will a list of the senators responsible. Joseph From solsticesinger at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 19:57:52 2009 From: solsticesinger at gmail.com (solsticesinger) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:57:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] math textbook question References: Message-ID: <5E0E859AC38B4B02850AE8424B6CB21C@shannon> Rachel, I would suggest a reader, since it seems the only viable option. You might talk to the disability services department at your school, and see if they'll put the diagrams into some sort of tactile format for you. Good luck. Shannon Are you a fan of women's music? If so, check out the Eclectic Collection: A Celebration of Women In Music, each Wednesday evening from 7 to 9 eastern. www.radio360.us ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rachel Becker" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:15 PM Subject: [nabs-l] math textbook question What do you do when you have to take a math class and can't find the textbook in Braille? I searched the APH Louis database for the book but it's not there. One source said that it will cost $6000 to get the chapters that I need Brailled. The state agency suggested that I use a reader. Do you think that using a reader would be a good solution for working with diagrams? Do you have any sugestions for dealing with a situation like this? Thanks. Rachel _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/solsticesinger%40gmail.com From jw927 at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 20:24:02 2009 From: jw927 at comcast.net (Jessica) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:24:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] msn and skype Message-ID: <517B79D7300B4E218D8D9DFBE1311340@Jess> Hi everyone! I hope everyone is doing well. I am just curious if anyone here has msn and/or skype? Please email me off-list with your information. Thank you all so much! Have a great day everyone! From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 21:15:59 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:15:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: <69FEF752-6414-4906-A015-D313E060870A@gmail.com> I think this is great!!! Not only is it cutting-edge, but it makes windows mobile for pocket pc look like... well... Sorry windows users... Junk. ha ha. Anyway... Great for apple and finally making the Iphone accessible! From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 21:23:10 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:23:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] More on Eddy Morten and Air Canada In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow... This is something that untill fixed, will make me not want to fly air canada. This is a travisty. On Jun 9, 2009, at 12:28 PM, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: > Since people seem to be interested in this story, I thought I would > pass on > an article from the ARCH Disability Law Centre's latest news letter, > which > came out today. It's not quite as pithy as a news story, but it is > pretty > informative, and I think most of you will be pleased by the outcome. > > Marc > > Eddy Morten v. Air Canada - Air Canada's Blanket Policy for Deaf-Blind > Passengers Discriminatory > By Laurie Letheren, Staff Lawyer > > In its January 26 2009 decision, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal > [The > Tribunal] found that Air Canada's decision that Mr. Eddy Morten who is > deaf-blind was required to travel with an attendant and that he > cover the > costs of having the attendant fly with him. The Tribunal found that > this > blanket decision did not allow for individual assessments of disabled > travelers and it had a discriminatory impact on Mr. Morten as a > person with > a disability. > > At the Tribunal hearing Mr. Morten described many examples of how he > travels > independently around the city where he lives. He is accompanied by > his > guide dog when he travels. He spoke of the methods that he uses to > communicate when travelling. For quick communication such as asking > for > directions, Mr. Morten will ask a person to spell the words in block > letters > on his palm. He indicated that people have no trouble understanding > very > quickly how to communicate with him. > > Mr. Morten also explained that he travels with a backpack which has > a large > button indicating that he is deaf-blind. He gave an example of > travelling on > public transit. If a transit employee approached him to ask if he > needed > help, the transit employee would tap him on the shoulder and put Mr. > Morten's hand on a badge on the employee's shirt. By this he could > identify > the person as a transit employee. He would let the person know that > he is > not lost by writing O K on a hand. > > If he takes a taxi, his guide dog accompanies him. Mr. Morten > writes out > the address where he wishes to go and the driver tells him the > amount of the > fare by drawing the number on his palm. > > When Mr. Morten made a reservation with Air Canada he indicated that > he was > deaf-blind. Once Air Canada had this information about Mr. Morten's > disability, the reservations attendant decided he needed an > attendant to fly > with him and he would be required to pay the cost of the attendant. > The Air > Canada Meda desk confirmed the reservation attendant's decision. The > Meda > desk is part of Air Canada's reservations department. The practice > that is > to be followed when a person making a reservation indicates that > they are a > person with a disability who may require some accommodations while > flying is > that the Meda desk is to receive information from the passenger and > from his > or her medical provider relating to the accommodations they may need > while > flying. The persons who work on the Meda desk are not medically > trained. The > medical information is to be passed to Air Canada's Occupational > Health > Services department who review the medical information and determine > whether > the passenger can fly on Air Canada with or without conditions. The > Occupational Health Services is staffed by licensed physicians, > occupational > health nurses and medical officer assistants. > > The Occupational Health Services is to consider whether a person > would be > self-reliant in air travel. This involves considerations of > passenger's > ability to understand emergency announcements, the ability to make > his or > her need for assistance known and the ability of the passenger to > move from > his or her seat should that be necessary in an emergency. > > An Air Canada witness stated that when determining whether a person > with a > disability is self-reliant the tests applied are to determine > whether an > individual would be able to act on emergency instructions. The Air > Canada > witness said that if the individual was not able to see or hear the > cabin > crew to receive information about safety procedures in an emergency > situation, that individual would be considered non self-reliant for > airline > travel. > > At the Tribunal, Air Canada agreed that the proper procedure was not > followed when Mr. Morten made his reservation. It was not for the > reservations department or the Meda desk to decide that Mr. Morten > required > an attendant to fly on Air Canada. The appropriate procedure was to > the > questionnaire used to determine fitness to fly sent to Mr. Morten > and his > doctors and then reviewed by the Occupation Health Services > department of > Air Canada. > > Mr. Morten's physician was not asked to complete the fitness to fly > form > until after Mr. Morten objected to the decision that he had to fly > with an > attendant and the form was not received by Mr. Morten's doctor until a > couple of weeks before he was to travel. The completed form was not > received > by the Occupation Health Services office before the date that Mr. > Morten was > to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that the evidence is clear that Air Canada > imposed on > Mr. Morten, as a condition of flying that was not imposed on other > passengers. Placing this condition of flying on Mr. Morten was > directly > related to his disability and the Tribunal found that this condition > imposed > by Air Canada was discriminatory. Requiring Mr. Morten to fly with an > attendant affected his freedom to travel and increased his cost of > travelling. > > Once the Tribunal found that the requirement to fly with an attendant > discriminated against Mr. Morten they had to consider whether the > discrimination could be justified. > > In deciding whether Air Canada was justified in imposing the attendant > requirement the Tribunal had to consider if the purpose of this > restriction > was rationally connected flying; whether the requirement was adopted > in the > good faith belief that it was necessary for passenger safety and > whether > allowing Mr. Morten to travel alone would have imposed undue > hardship on Air > Canada, considering health, safety and cost. > > Air Canada acknowledges that an individual assessment of each > passenger's > needs is not impossible especially since individual assessment is the > procedure that Air Canada's medical staff uses to determine fitness > to fly. > > The Tribunal concluded that Air Canada could not justify the > discriminatory > policy that had been applied when Mr. Morten made his reservation. Air > Canada had not taken any steps to assess Mr. Morten's individual > needs and > capabilities and because of this failure it could not justify the > discrimination. The Tribunal stated "Decisions not to accommodate > the needs > of disabled persons must be founded on their actual capacities and > the real > risks posed thereby, rather than on discriminatory assumptions based > on > stereotypes of disability." > > The Tribunal ordered: > Air Canada needs to work with the [Canadian Human Rights Commission] > and Mr. > Morten to develop an attendant policy that takes into account the > communication strategies utilized by people like Mr. Morten, the > inherent > risk posed by passengers with comprised mobility who are currently > allowed > to fly unaccompanied, and the fact that in emergency situations, many > able-bodied passengers are unable to receive, process and act on > safety-related emergency instructions. > > It is only after doing this that Air Canada can truly and fully > redress the > discriminatory practice it visited upon Mr. Morten and prevent its > recurrence. > > The Tribunal also made the following order to address the personal > suffering > that Mr. Morten had experiences as a result of Air Canada's decision: > > Given the impact that this discriminatory practice has had on Mr. > Morten's > sense of accomplishment, his efforts to develop his independence > over the > years and the effects on his physical well-being, we consider that > an award > of $10,000 is an appropriate amount for pain and suffering. > > The full decision of the Tribunal can be read at > http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/chrt/doc/2009/2009chrt3/2009chrt3.html > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 21:24:06 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:24:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> People have unlocked the older Iphones, why not this new one? On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will > not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- From: "alena roberts" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > > I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind > community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the > least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that > learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it > works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player > all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. > > On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: >> >> I agree with you. that's why I said: >> >> "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >> press >> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." >> >> Just saying. >> >> >> >> Brice >>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> >>> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >>> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >>> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >>> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >>> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs >>> that >>> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process >>> our >>> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with >>> consumer >>> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't >>> hate on >>> those who innovate, can we? >>> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> >>> Original message: >>> >>> > I'm happy with my N82. >>> >>> >>> >>> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>> >>> >>> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; >>> IMO, the >>> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are >>> perfectly fine >>> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>> are just >>> > a popular craze. >>> >>> >>> >>> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to >>> other, less >>> > popular but more feature-filled products. >>> >>> >>> >>> > But this ... >>> >>> >>> >>> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by >>> a press >>> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>> >>> > Brice >>> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Vision >>> >>> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >>> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >>> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >>> >> for those with impaired vision. >>> >>> >>> >> VoiceOver >>> >>> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>> >>> >>> >>> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >>> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >>> >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >>> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>> >>> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >>> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >>> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >>> >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >>> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >>> >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >>> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >>> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >>> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>> >>> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >>> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >>> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >>> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >>> >> communicate where each element is located or >>> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >>> >> contextual information is very important but >>> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >>> >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >>> >> traditional screen readers to represent >>> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >>> >> away contextual information and describe web >>> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >>> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely >>> new. >>> >>> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >>> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >>> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >>> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >>> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >>> >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >>> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>> >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >>> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >>> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >>> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >>> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of >>> what >>> >> they are. >>> >>> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >>> >> screen, including status information such as >>> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >>> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >>> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >>> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >>> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>> >>> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >>> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >>> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >>> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >>> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >>> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >>> >> volume of background sounds and music are >>> >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >>> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>> >>> >>> >> It speaks your language >>> >>> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >>> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >>> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >>> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >>> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >>> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish >>> (Spain), and >>> >> Swedish. >>> >>> >>> >> Getting started >>> >>> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >>> >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >>> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >>> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >>> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >>> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >>> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>> >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >>> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >>> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >>> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >>> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >>> >>> >>> >> How it works >>> >>> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >>> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >>> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >>> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >>> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>> >>> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >>> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >>> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >>> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >>> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >>> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >>> >>> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >>> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >>> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >>> >> previous item on the screen no matter how big or >>> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >>> >> control of what you hear even when it might >>> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>> >>> >>> >> Entering Text >>> >>> >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >>> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >>> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >>> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >>> >> addition to individual characters as you type >>> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >>> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >>> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as >>> typing a >>> >> new word. >>> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>> >>> >>> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >>> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >>> >> correct spelling when you type a word >>> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >>> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >>> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >>> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >>> >>> >>> >> The Rotor >>> >>> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>> >>> >>> >>> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >>> >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor by >>> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >>> >> turning an actual dial changes the way >>> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >>> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >>> >> down might move through text word by word. But >>> >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >>> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >>> >> through the text character by character perfect >>> >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>> >>> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >>> >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >>> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >>> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >>> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >>> >> between. >>> >>> >>> >> Applications >>> >>> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >>> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >>> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >>> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >>> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >>> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >>> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >>> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >>> >> compatible. >>> >> >> >Learn >>> >> more >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>> >>> >>> >> Voice Control >>> >>> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >>> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >>> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >>> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >>> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >>> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >>> >>> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >>> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >>> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >>> >> >> >Learn >>> >> more >>> >>> >>> >> Zoom >>> >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>> >>> >>> >>> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >>> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >>> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >>> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >>> >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >>> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >>> >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >>> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >>> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >>> >>> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >>> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens even with >>> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>> >>> >>> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >>> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >>> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >>> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >>> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >>> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >>> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >>> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >>> >> auto-text. >>> >>> >>> >> White On Black >>> >>> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >>> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >>> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >>> >> affect works in all applications including the >>> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >>> >> VoiceOver. >>> >>> >>> >> Speak Auto-text >>> >>> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >>> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >>> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >>> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >>> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >>> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >>> >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >>> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >>> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>> >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>> >>> >>> >> Tactile Buttons >>> >>> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >>> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >>> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >>> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >>> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >>> >> button, centered below the display. >>> >>> >>> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>> >>> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >>> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >>> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >>> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>> >>> >>> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >>> >>> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >>> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >>> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >>> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >>> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >>> >> built-in remote control button. >>> >>> >> Several add-on products are also available to >>> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >>> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >>> >> induction ear loop from >>> >> TecEar, >>> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and >>> others. >>> >>> >>> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>> >>> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >>> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >>> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >>> >>> >>> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>> >>> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >>> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >>> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >>> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >>> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >>> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >>> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>> >>> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >>> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >>> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an >>> audio >> alert. >>> >>> >>> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>> >>> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >>> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >>> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >>> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >>> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>> >>> >>> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>> >>> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >>> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >>> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >>> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>> >> >> >Hearing >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>> >>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. >> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From rmlambert1987 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 21:38:24 2009 From: rmlambert1987 at yahoo.com (Rob Lambert) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind Message-ID: <751248.61541.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> If a jailbreak were to occur, though, who's to say VoiceOver wouldn't stop functioning? Apple has built in little bits & pieces to prevent jailbreaking on the iPhone 3G S, which is coming pre-loaded with iPhone OS 3.0; you need 2.0 or below to jailbreak. The lower the better. Once jailbroken, you CAN NOT update your iPhone, because doing so would render the applications unusuable, and COULD cause your iPhone to crash. If a restore doesn't work, Apple wouldn't honor the warranty of your jailbroken iPhone. --- On Wed, 6/10/09, T. Joseph Carter wrote: From: T. Joseph Carter Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:16 AM If they finally bothered to include a BT keyboard profile, yes.  Prior to the invention of the iPhone, Steve Jobs used a Treo.  Many people remember the Stowaway keyboards for the original Handspring Treo and Visor, which turned them into efficient text-based meeting note taking devices. Here's hoping for that BT profile, either built-in or via jailbreak. Joseph On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 04:42:51PM -0600, Sydney Walker Freedman wrote: >Couldn't you use one of those little  bluetooth keyboard with it? > >On 6/9/09, Haben Girma wrote: >> >> Here's what Apple says about typing on the iPhone 3GS: >> >> Entering Text >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, VoiceOver >> echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and again to >> confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver speak each >> completed word instead of and in addition to individual characters as >> you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves the insertion point >> cursor left and right within the text so you can edit a word just as >> easily and precisely as typing a new word. >> >> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you’ll hear a sound effect >> and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just keep typing to >> ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >> >> >> It sounds like there would be a huge learning curve for blind users, but >> the end result could be fast typing on a fast and feature-packed phone. >> >> Haben >> >> T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>> Brice, >>> >>> So, I think I'm hearing you say that you've been an anti-apple-snob >>> and they finally came out with a device that even you think sounds >>> really cool? *grin* >>> >>> Honestly, Apple and the hardcore Apple fan base really kind of ask for >>> it sometimes, I freely admit. But what has me excited about the iPhone >>> 3GS is not that it has a screen reader, but that it has the screen >>> reader built-in to a device that sells for $199 with contract. >>> >>> Of course, AT&T will make you pay for their data plan with the phone >>> and I'm not even remotely sure how useful the data plan would be to a >>> blind user since I don't see how the iPhone 3GS handles text entry >>> without a tactile keyboard. But if Apple's got that figured out, it's >>> a $200 smart phone, accessible out of the box. >>> >>> That's something to get excited about. Now put a real camera in the >>> thing Apple, so we can have iKNFB Reader. *grin* >>> >>> Joseph >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:56:46AM -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm happy with my N82. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>>> >>>> >>>> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, >>>> the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>>> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly >>>> fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>>> are just a popular craze. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, >>>> less popular but more feature-filled products. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But this ... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>>> press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Vision >>>>> >>>>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally revolutionary >>>>> screen reader, and other innovative accessibility features that make >>>>> it easier to use for those with impaired vision. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver >>>>> >>>>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on the Mac is now a >>>>> standard feature on the iPhone 3G S. It’s the world’s first >>>>> gesture-based screen reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>>> >>>>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable is that you control >>>>> it using simple gestures that let you physically interact with items >>>>> on screen. It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of memorizing >>>>> hundreds of keyboard commands, or endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys >>>>> to find what you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply touch >>>>> the screen to hear a description of the item under your finger, then >>>>> gesture with a double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any screen reader you've >>>>> ever used before. Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>>> elements on the screen, but struggle to communicate where each >>>>> element is located or provide information about adjoining objects. >>>>> This contextual information is very important but typically filtered >>>>> out by other screen readers. For example, “off-screen” models used >>>>> by traditional screen readers to represent applications and web >>>>> pages intentionally strip away contextual information and describe >>>>> web pages as a list or menu of items. But with VoiceOver on iPhone >>>>> 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>>>> >>>>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s touchscreen, you interact >>>>> directly with objects on the screen and can naturally understand >>>>> their location and context. So, when you touch the upper-left corner >>>>> of the screen, you'll hear what’s in the upper left corner of a web >>>>> page, and as you drag your finger around the screen, you'll learn >>>>> what’s nearby, providing an amazing new sense of context and >>>>> relationship between the items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on >>>>> iPhone will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true sense of how >>>>> things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. >>>>> >>>>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the screen, including >>>>> status information such as battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network >>>>> signal levels, the cellular network provider, and time of day. It >>>>> even lets you know when the display changes to landscape or portrait >>>>> orientation, and when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>>> >>>>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it to a speed that >>>>> best suits your listening ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound >>>>> effects to alert you when an application opens, when the screen is >>>>> updated, when a message dialog appears, and more. And, when >>>>> Voiceover is talking, the volume of background sounds and music are >>>>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, so you can clearly >>>>> hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It speaks your language >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 languages including >>>>> Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, >>>>> English (US), English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Polish, >>>>> Portuguese (Brazil), Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish >>>>> (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Getting started >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. There’s nothing extra >>>>> to purchase or install. All you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 >>>>> or later, and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and enable >>>>> VoiceOver without sighted assistance using iTunes with a compatible >>>>> screen reader like VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>>>> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista (sold separately). >>>>> When you activate iPhone using iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on >>>>> the iPhone to start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>>>> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using the Accessibility >>>>> menu in the Settings application. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> How it works >>>>> >>>>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, but simple set of >>>>> gestures to control the iPhone. For example, instead of tapping to >>>>> click a button or select an item, you tap to hear a description of >>>>> the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>>> >>>>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black rectangle called the >>>>> VoiceOver cursor appears around it. The VoiceOver cursor is >>>>> displayed for the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, VoiceOver includes a >>>>> screen curtain that turns off the display so no one can read it >>>>> without your knowledge. >>>>> >>>>> In addition to touching and dragging around the screen, you can also >>>>> flick left and right to move the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the >>>>> next or previous item on the screen­no matter how big or small it >>>>> is. By flicking, you have precise control of what you hear even when >>>>> it might otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Entering Text >>>>> >>>>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, >>>>> VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and >>>>> again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>>> speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual >>>>> characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves >>>>> the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you can >>>>> edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >>>>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >>>>> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >>>>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll hear a sound >>>>> effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just >>>>> keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type >>>>> it for you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The Rotor >>>>> >>>>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual control called a “rotor.” >>>>> Turning the rotor­ by rotating two fingers on the screen as if you >>>>> were turning an actual dial ­ changes the way VoiceOver moves >>>>> through a document based on a setting you choose. For example, a >>>>> flick up or down might move through text word by word. But when you >>>>> choose the “character” setting, each time you flick up or down >>>>> VoiceOver will move through the text character by character ­ >>>>> perfect when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>>> >>>>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. When you’re on a >>>>> web page, the rotor contains the names of common items, such as >>>>> headers, links, tables, images, and more. You select a setting, then >>>>> flick up and down to move to the previous or next occurrence of that >>>>> item on the page, skipping over items in between. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Applications >>>>> >>>>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in applications that come with >>>>> iPhone 3G S, such as Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. >>>>> So, you can place and receive calls, surf the web, text and email >>>>> your friends, check your stocks and the weather, and much, much >>>>> more. Apple is also working with iPhone software developers so they >>>>> can make their applications VoiceOver compatible. >>>>> Learn >>>>> more >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Voice Control >>>>> >>>>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice to play music and >>>>> make a phone call. Just press and hold the home button, listen for >>>>> the audio prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, or >>>>> playlist you want to hear. You can pause, play, change tracks, even >>>>> shuffle your music. >>>>> >>>>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or telephone number of >>>>> the person you want to call. iPhone 3G S understands 21 different >>>>> languages. >>>>> Learn >>>>> >>>>> more >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Zoom >>>>> >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in and out specific >>>>> elements such as images in Mail, or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom >>>>> lets you magnify the entire screen of any application you’re using >>>>> to help you see what’s on the display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone >>>>> 3G S using iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for yourself or >>>>> someone else, or later, using the Accessibility menu in the Settings >>>>> application on the iPhone. >>>>> >>>>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight >>>>> screens­even with applications you purchase from the App store. >>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly zooms in and out >>>>> 200% and you can double-tap and drag three fingers to dynamically >>>>> adjust the magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when zoomed, >>>>> you can continue using all of the familiar flick, pinch, tap and >>>>> other iPhone gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom can >>>>> also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> White On Black >>>>> >>>>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, iPhone 3G S provides >>>>> an option to change the display to White On Black. This reverse >>>>> video affect works in all applications including the Home, Unlock, >>>>> and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Speak Auto-text >>>>> >>>>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you finish typing it or a >>>>> correction when a word is misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>>>> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re presented. When >>>>> zoomed, for example, the suggestion might not be visible on screen, >>>>> but you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If you’re using >>>>> VoiceOver, you won't have to interrupt your typing and touch the >>>>> suggestion to hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tactile Buttons >>>>> >>>>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible physical buttons used to >>>>> control the phone: the Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; >>>>> the Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, located on the >>>>> upper-left edge; and the Home button, centered below the display. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>>> >>>>> For improved email readability, you can increase the default font >>>>> size of email text from Medium (the default) to Large, Extra-large, >>>>> or Giant. >>>>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>>> >>>>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a high-performance >>>>> microphone built into the cable. Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm >>>>> stereo headphone jack and the headset lets you control music >>>>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the built-in remote >>>>> control button. >>>>> >>>>> Several add-on products are also available to work with iPhone that >>>>> can help those with hearing disabilities, including a hearing >>>>> aid-compatible induction ear loop from >>>>> TecEar, wireless remote >>>>> headset from Oticon, and others. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>>> >>>>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in speakerphone, >>>>> which you can also use to listen to Visual Voicemail, music, >>>>> podcasts, and video. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>>> >>>>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both audible and visual >>>>> alerts. You can activate alerts for phone calls, text messages, >>>>> incoming and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also offers an >>>>> audio option confirming keyboard clicks. You can even set incoming >>>>> calls to display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>>> >>>>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of playing a tone. To ensure >>>>> that you never miss a notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate >>>>> and play an audio alert. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>>> >>>>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to individuals in your contacts >>>>> list, using the ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the iTunes >>>>> Store to create, purchase, and download additional ringtones of your >>>>> favorite songs (sold separately). >>>>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>>> >>>>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML format designed >>>>> with accessibility in mind. You can read the guide using your >>>>> favorite screen reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and using >>>>> Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>>> Hearing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freedmas%40stolaf.edu >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rmlambert1987%40yahoo.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 21:57:51 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:57:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] msn and skype References: <517B79D7300B4E218D8D9DFBE1311340@Jess> Message-ID: <000b01c9ea16$80af6c10$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Hi Jessica I have both. Email me off list. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jessica" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:24 PM Subject: [nabs-l] msn and skype > Hi everyone! I hope everyone is doing well. I am just curious if anyone > here has msn and/or skype? Please email me off-list with your > information. Thank you all so much! Have a great day everyone! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 22:12:21 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel instructor Message-ID: <788310.70178.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Sarah, You miss understood me. What I said was my O/M instructor came to my house and gave me the cane, but no lesson on how to use it. Therefor I took it out and began teaching myself, thus making ME the worst O/M instructor ever (as I don't know anything about O/M). Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 22:27:47 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton.waterbury at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:27:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Article sent from ksl.com Message-ID: Finally... A battle against 1 of many schools for the deaf and blind. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6770856 From corbbo at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 02:28:44 2009 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:28:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7C56F108-266E-427B-AEF1-0784F24F11DB@gmail.com> Clinton, The older iPhones were "unlockable" because they had a removable SIM card. Now, the iPhones (newer 3G and all 3GS models) do not use SIM cards -- they're like a Verizon phone. The SIM card is embedded. The one nice thing, though, is that it's absolutely foolish to steal a new iPhone, just like a Verizon; when the owner finds out, they send a kill signal and now your phone NEVER works again. Corbb On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:24 PM, clinton waterbury wrote: People have unlocked the older Iphones, why not this new one? On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will > not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- From: "alena roberts" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind > > > I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind > community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the > least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that > learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it > works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player > all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. > > On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: >> >> I agree with you. that's why I said: >> >> "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >> press >> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." >> >> Just saying. >> >> >> >> Brice >>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> >>> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >>> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >>> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >>> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >>> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs >>> that >>> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process >>> our >>> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with >>> consumer >>> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't >>> hate on >>> those who innovate, can we? >>> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> >>> >>> Original message: >>> >>> > I'm happy with my N82. >>> >>> >>> >>> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>> >>> >>> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; >>> IMO, the >>> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are >>> perfectly fine >>> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>> are just >>> > a popular craze. >>> >>> >>> >>> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to >>> other, less >>> > popular but more feature-filled products. >>> >>> >>> >>> > But this ... >>> >>> >>> >>> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by >>> a press >>> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>> >>> > Brice >>> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Vision >>> >>> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >>> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >>> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >>> >> for those with impaired vision. >>> >>> >>> >> VoiceOver >>> >>> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>> >>> >>> >>> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >>> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >>> >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >>> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>> >>> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >>> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >>> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >>> >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >>> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >>> >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >>> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >>> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >>> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>> >>> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >>> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >>> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >>> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >>> >> communicate where each element is located or >>> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >>> >> contextual information is very important but >>> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >>> >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >>> >> traditional screen readers to represent >>> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >>> >> away contextual information and describe web >>> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >>> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely >>> new. >>> >>> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >>> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >>> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >>> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >>> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >>> >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >>> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>> >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >>> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >>> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >>> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >>> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of >>> what >>> >> they are. >>> >>> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >>> >> screen, including status information such as >>> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >>> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >>> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >>> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >>> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>> >>> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >>> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >>> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >>> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >>> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >>> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >>> >> volume of background sounds and music are >>> >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >>> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>> >>> >>> >> It speaks your language >>> >>> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >>> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >>> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >>> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >>> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >>> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish >>> (Spain), and >>> >> Swedish. >>> >>> >>> >> Getting started >>> >>> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >>> >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >>> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >>> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >>> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >>> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >>> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>> >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >>> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >>> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >>> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >>> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >>> >>> >>> >> How it works >>> >>> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >>> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >>> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >>> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >>> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>> >>> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >>> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >>> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >>> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >>> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >>> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >>> >>> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >>> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >>> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >>> >> previous item on the screen no matter how big or >>> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >>> >> control of what you hear even when it might >>> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>> >>> >>> >> Entering Text >>> >>> >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >>> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >>> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >>> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >>> >> addition to individual characters as you type >>> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >>> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >>> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as >>> typing a >>> >> new word. >>> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>> >>> >>> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >>> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >>> >> correct spelling when you type a word >>> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >>> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >>> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >>> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >>> >>> >>> >> The Rotor >>> >>> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>> >>> >>> >>> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >>> >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor by >>> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >>> >> turning an actual dial changes the way >>> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >>> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >>> >> down might move through text word by word. But >>> >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >>> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >>> >> through the text character by character perfect >>> >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>> >>> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >>> >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >>> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >>> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >>> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >>> >> between. >>> >>> >>> >> Applications >>> >>> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >>> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >>> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >>> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >>> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >>> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >>> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >>> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >>> >> compatible. >>> >> >> >Learn >>> >> more >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>> >>> >>> >> Voice Control >>> >>> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >>> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >>> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >>> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >>> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >>> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >>> >>> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >>> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >>> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >>> >> >> >Learn >>> >> more >>> >>> >>> >> Zoom >>> >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>> >>> >>> >>> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >>> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >>> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >>> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >>> >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >>> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >>> >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >>> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >>> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >>> >>> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >>> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens even with >>> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>> >>> >>> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >>> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >>> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >>> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >>> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >>> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >>> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >>> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >>> >> auto-text. >>> >>> >>> >> White On Black >>> >>> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >>> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >>> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >>> >> affect works in all applications including the >>> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >>> >> VoiceOver. >>> >>> >>> >> Speak Auto-text >>> >>> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >>> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >>> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >>> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >>> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >>> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >>> >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >>> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >>> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>> >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>> >>> >>> >> Tactile Buttons >>> >>> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >>> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >>> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >>> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >>> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >>> >> button, centered below the display. >>> >>> >>> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>> >>> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >>> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >>> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >>> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>> >>> >>> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >>> >>> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >>> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >>> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >>> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >>> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >>> >> built-in remote control button. >>> >>> >> Several add-on products are also available to >>> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >>> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >>> >> induction ear loop from >>> >> TecEar, >>> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and >>> others. >>> >>> >>> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>> >>> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >>> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >>> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >>> >>> >>> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>> >>> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >>> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >>> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >>> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >>> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >>> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >>> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>> >>> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >>> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >>> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an >>> audio >> alert. >>> >>> >>> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>> >>> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >>> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >>> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >>> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >>> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>> >>> >>> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>> >>> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >>> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >>> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >>> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>> >> >> >Hearing >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>> >>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. >> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu Jun 11 02:29:50 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby Message-ID: <20090611022950.15077.55567@web3.serotek.com> Beth, what your really dealing with is a psychosocial problem rather than a physical one. The sighted can't imagine how a blind person can safely opperate an emergency exit row let alone do much anything else because, in their world view, sight is a basic requirement for function and leisure. we know differently. sight is a convenience, not a necessary prerequisite. when a sighted person meets a blind person, their first thought usually is, "what would I do if I were in that situation? I'd be afraid and unable to cope!" Most sighted people don't recognize that they're suffering from a lack of information regarding blindness until you point it out to them. When they really understand that they need educating, most are open and willing to engage in the process. Those who aren't are experiencing good old-fashioned prejudice that spans as far back as ancient antiquitiy with the help of the blind prophet and the blind beggar. Sounds simplistic. Mostly, it's not, but that's the basic run-down of the thing. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Ok. But most airlines say, "You must be able to "see" the exit." Why > is this and how can we justify being able to sit in an exit row? > Beth > On 6/10/09, Monika Reinholz wrote: >> Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the others, >> therefore having more space for someones legs to be comfortable during >> flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even though Im ony 5'5" because >> its more comfortable for the legs. I can understand the kid rule they have >> for the row but I believe everyone knows what they can do best. If a blind >> person knows s/he can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and let >> them sit where they are most comfortable. >> Monika >> Monika Reinholz >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 >>> From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >>> travelalone; Burnaby >>> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency >>> row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows >>> anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. >>> Beth >>> On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: >>>> Hey all, >>>> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people >>>> are >>>> not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an >>>> emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. >>>> BTW, >>>> I start cane travel training today. >>>> Jim >>>> "From compromise and things half done, >>>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>>> And when at last the fight is won, >>>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 02:39:04 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:39:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> References: <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090611023904.GC4911@yumi.bluecherry.net> Because we haven't found the exploit necessary to do it. We don't have even a proper unlock for the iPhone 3G released a year ago. The closest we have is yellowsnow which is a program that fakes unlock for an older version of the software. The original iPhone is completely defeated. The iPhone 3G was built to keep us from doing that, and thus far we haven't. If someone's got a way to completely defeat the iPhone 3G, they've kept quiet about it in the hopes that the 3G S will be vulnerable. Joseph On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 03:24:06PM -0600, clinton waterbury wrote: > People have unlocked the older Iphones, why not this new one? > On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > >> Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will >> not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. >> >> Dezman >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "alena roberts" >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> >> I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind >> community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the >> least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that >> learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it >> works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player >> all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. >> >> On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: >>> >>> I agree with you. that's why I said: >>> >>> "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>> press >>> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." >>> >>> Just saying. >>> >>> >>> >>> Brice >>>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>> >>>> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >>>> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving the >>>> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >>>> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >>>> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs >>>> that >>>> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process >>>> our >>>> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with >>>> consumer >>>> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't >>>> hate on >>>> those who innovate, can we? >>>> >>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>> >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>> >>>> > I'm happy with my N82. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>>> >>>> >>>> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; >>>> IMO, the >>>> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>>> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are >>>> perfectly fine >>>> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>>> are just >>>> > a popular craze. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to >>>> other, less >>>> > popular but more feature-filled products. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > But this ... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by >>>> a press >>>> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>>> >>>> > Brice >>>> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Vision >>>> >>>> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >>>> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >>>> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >>>> >> for those with impaired vision. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver >>>> >>>> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >>>> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >>>> >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >>>> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>> >>>> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >>>> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >>>> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >>>> >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>>> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >>>> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >>>> >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >>>> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >>>> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >>>> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >>>> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >>>> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >>>> >> communicate where each element is located or >>>> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >>>> >> contextual information is very important but >>>> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >>>> >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >>>> >> traditional screen readers to represent >>>> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >>>> >> away contextual information and describe web >>>> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >>>> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely >>>> new. >>>> >>>> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >>>> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >>>> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >>>> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >>>> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >>>> >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >>>> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>>> >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >>>> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >>>> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >>>> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >>>> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of >>>> what >>>> >> they are. >>>> >>>> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >>>> >> screen, including status information such as >>>> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >>>> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >>>> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >>>> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >>>> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>> >>>> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >>>> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >>>> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >>>> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >>>> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >>>> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >>>> >> volume of background sounds and music are >>>> >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >>>> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> It speaks your language >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >>>> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >>>> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >>>> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >>>> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >>>> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish >>>> (Spain), and >>>> >> Swedish. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Getting started >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >>>> >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >>>> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >>>> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >>>> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >>>> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >>>> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>>> >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >>>> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >>>> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >>>> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>>> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >>>> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> How it works >>>> >>>> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >>>> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >>>> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >>>> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >>>> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>> >>>> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >>>> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >>>> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >>>> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >>>> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >>>> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >>>> >>>> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >>>> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >>>> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >>>> >> previous item on the screen no matter how big or >>>> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >>>> >> control of what you hear even when it might >>>> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Entering Text >>>> >>>> >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >>>> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >>>> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >>>> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >>>> >> addition to individual characters as you type >>>> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >>>> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >>>> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as >>>> typing a >>>> >> new word. >>>> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>> >>>> >>>> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >>>> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >>>> >> correct spelling when you type a word >>>> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >>>> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >>>> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >>>> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> The Rotor >>>> >>>> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >>>> >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor by >>>> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >>>> >> turning an actual dial changes the way >>>> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >>>> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >>>> >> down might move through text word by word. But >>>> >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >>>> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >>>> >> through the text character by character perfect >>>> >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>> >>>> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >>>> >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >>>> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >>>> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>>> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >>>> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >>>> >> between. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Applications >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >>>> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >>>> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >>>> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >>>> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >>>> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >>>> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >>>> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >>>> >> compatible. >>>> >> >>> >Learn >>>> >> more >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Voice Control >>>> >>>> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >>>> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >>>> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >>>> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >>>> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >>>> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >>>> >>>> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >>>> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >>>> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >Learn >>>> >> more >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Zoom >>>> >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >>>> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >>>> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >>>> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >>>> >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >>>> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >>>> >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >>>> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >>>> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >>>> >>>> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >>>> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens even with >>>> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>> >>>> >>>> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >>>> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >>>> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >>>> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >>>> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >>>> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >>>> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >>>> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >>>> >> auto-text. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> White On Black >>>> >>>> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >>>> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >>>> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >>>> >> affect works in all applications including the >>>> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and >>>> >> VoiceOver. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Speak Auto-text >>>> >>>> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >>>> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >>>> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>>> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >>>> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >>>> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >>>> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >>>> >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >>>> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >>>> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>> >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Tactile Buttons >>>> >>>> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >>>> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >>>> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >>>> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >>>> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >>>> >> button, centered below the display. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>> >>>> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >>>> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >>>> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >>>> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>> >>>> >>>> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>> >>>> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >>>> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >>>> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >>>> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >>>> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >>>> >> built-in remote control button. >>>> >>>> >> Several add-on products are also available to >>>> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >>>> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >>>> >> induction ear loop from >>>> >> TecEar, >>>> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and >>>> others. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>> >>>> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >>>> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >>>> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>> >>>> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >>>> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >>>> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >>>> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >>>> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >>>> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >>>> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>> >>>> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >>>> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >>>> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an >>>> audio >> alert. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>> >>>> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >>>> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >>>> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >>>> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >>>> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>>> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>> >>>> >>>> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>> >>>> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >>>> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >>>> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >>>> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>>> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>> >> >>>> >>> >Hearing >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>> >>>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>>> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>>> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. >>> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Alena Roberts >> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 02:50:10 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:50:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <751248.61541.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <751248.61541.qm@web56108.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090611025010.GD4911@yumi.bluecherry.net> Rob, Please don't spread misinformation. Betas of the 3.0 software have already been jailbroken "the hard way", with developers keeping details of how they did it close to their chests for obvious reasons. No automated tool exists yet, but us iPhone old-timers do remember doing things the hard way. (It requires more skill now and the dev team do not document their methods anymore..) There will likely be a new jailbreak tool for 3.0 on the iPhone and iPhone 3G soon after the iPhone 3G S is released. It will take longer to jailbreak the 3G S naturally, and we don't even know if a SIM unlock will be possible. I'm still using my two year old 4GB iPhone, personally, so my device will not support VoiceOver. Not enough CPU power. I'll likely order a 3G S internationally, factory unlocked, through an intermediary. A jailbreak would not disable VoiceOver, but it will disable your ability to just update to a new OS version any time Apple releases one. For those of us who use software on our phones that Apple will not allow into the AppStore, that's a small price to pay. Others use it for less legitimate purposes. Some use it for SIM unlocking. It's amusing, but the usage Apple seems to be most concerned with is the SIM unlocking. Joseph On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 02:38:24PM -0700, Rob Lambert wrote: >If a jailbreak were to occur, though, who's to say VoiceOver wouldn't stop functioning? Apple has built in little bits & pieces to prevent jailbreaking on the iPhone 3G S, which is coming pre-loaded with iPhone OS 3.0; you need 2.0 or below to jailbreak. The lower the better. Once jailbroken, you CAN NOT update your iPhone, because doing so would render the applications unusuable, and COULD cause your iPhone to crash. If a restore doesn't work, Apple wouldn't honor the warranty of your jailbroken iPhone. > >--- On Wed, 6/10/09, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > >From: T. Joseph Carter >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 10:16 AM > >If they finally bothered to include a BT keyboard profile, yes.  >Prior to the invention of the iPhone, Steve Jobs used a Treo.  Many >people remember the Stowaway keyboards for the original Handspring >Treo and Visor, which turned them into efficient text-based meeting >note taking devices. > >Here's hoping for that BT profile, either built-in or via jailbreak. > >Joseph > > >On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 04:42:51PM -0600, Sydney Walker Freedman wrote: >>Couldn't you use one of those little  bluetooth keyboard with it? >> >>On 6/9/09, Haben Girma wrote: >>> >>> Here's what Apple says about typing on the iPhone 3GS: >>> >>> Entering Text >>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, VoiceOver >>> echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and again to >>> confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver speak each >>> completed word instead of and in addition to individual characters as >>> you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves the insertion point >>> cursor left and right within the text so you can edit a word just as >>> easily and precisely as typing a new word. >>> >>> >>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >>> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you’ll hear a sound effect >>> and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just keep typing to >>> ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >>> >>> >>> It sounds like there would be a huge learning curve for blind users, but >>> the end result could be fast typing on a fast and feature-packed phone. >>> >>> Haben >>> >>> T. Joseph Carter wrote: >>>> Brice, >>>> >>>> So, I think I'm hearing you say that you've been an anti-apple-snob >>>> and they finally came out with a device that even you think sounds >>>> really cool? *grin* >>>> >>>> Honestly, Apple and the hardcore Apple fan base really kind of ask for >>>> it sometimes, I freely admit. But what has me excited about the iPhone >>>> 3GS is not that it has a screen reader, but that it has the screen >>>> reader built-in to a device that sells for $199 with contract. >>>> >>>> Of course, AT&T will make you pay for their data plan with the phone >>>> and I'm not even remotely sure how useful the data plan would be to a >>>> blind user since I don't see how the iPhone 3GS handles text entry >>>> without a tactile keyboard. But if Apple's got that figured out, it's >>>> a $200 smart phone, accessible out of the box. >>>> >>>> That's something to get excited about. Now put a real camera in the >>>> thing Apple, so we can have iKNFB Reader. *grin* >>>> >>>> Joseph >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 12:56:46AM -0400, Brice Smith wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm happy with my N82. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; IMO, >>>>> the only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>>>> digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are perfectly >>>>> fine for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>>>> are just a popular craze. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to other, >>>>> less popular but more feature-filled products. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But this ... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>>>> press release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>>> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>>>> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Vision >>>>>> >>>>>> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally revolutionary >>>>>> screen reader, and other innovative accessibility features that make >>>>>> it easier to use for those with impaired vision. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> VoiceOver >>>>>> >>>>>> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on the Mac is now a >>>>>> standard feature on the iPhone 3G S. It’s the world’s first >>>>>> gesture-based screen reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>>>> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>>>> >>>>>> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable is that you control >>>>>> it using simple gestures that let you physically interact with items >>>>>> on screen. It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of memorizing >>>>>> hundreds of keyboard commands, or endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys >>>>>> to find what you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply touch >>>>>> the screen to hear a description of the item under your finger, then >>>>>> gesture with a double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>>>>> >>>>>> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any screen reader you've >>>>>> ever used before. Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>>>> elements on the screen, but struggle to communicate where each >>>>>> element is located or provide information about adjoining objects. >>>>>> This contextual information is very important but typically filtered >>>>>> out by other screen readers. For example, “off-screen” models used >>>>>> by traditional screen readers to represent applications and web >>>>>> pages intentionally strip away contextual information and describe >>>>>> web pages as a list or menu of items. But with VoiceOver on iPhone >>>>>> 3G S, you'll experience something entirely new. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s touchscreen, you interact >>>>>> directly with objects on the screen and can naturally understand >>>>>> their location and context. So, when you touch the upper-left corner >>>>>> of the screen, you'll hear what’s in the upper left corner of a web >>>>>> page, and as you drag your finger around the screen, you'll learn >>>>>> what’s nearby, providing an amazing new sense of context and >>>>>> relationship between the items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on >>>>>> iPhone will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true sense of how >>>>>> things appear on screen, not just descriptions of what they are. >>>>>> >>>>>> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the screen, including >>>>>> status information such as battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network >>>>>> signal levels, the cellular network provider, and time of day. It >>>>>> even lets you know when the display changes to landscape or portrait >>>>>> orientation, and when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>>>> >>>>>> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it to a speed that >>>>>> best suits your listening ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound >>>>>> effects to alert you when an application opens, when the screen is >>>>>> updated, when a message dialog appears, and more. And, when >>>>>> Voiceover is talking, the volume of background sounds and music are >>>>>> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, so you can clearly >>>>>> hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It speaks your language >>>>>> >>>>>> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 languages including >>>>>> Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, >>>>>> English (US), English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>>>> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, Norwegian, Polish, >>>>>> Portuguese (Brazil), Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish >>>>>> (Mexico), Spanish (Spain), and Swedish. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Getting started >>>>>> >>>>>> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. There’s nothing extra >>>>>> to purchase or install. All you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 >>>>>> or later, and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and enable >>>>>> VoiceOver without sighted assistance using iTunes with a compatible >>>>>> screen reader like VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>>>>> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista (sold separately). >>>>>> When you activate iPhone using iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on >>>>>> the iPhone to start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>>>>> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using the Accessibility >>>>>> menu in the Settings application. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> How it works >>>>>> >>>>>> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, but simple set of >>>>>> gestures to control the iPhone. For example, instead of tapping to >>>>>> click a button or select an item, you tap to hear a description of >>>>>> the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>>>> >>>>>> When an item on the screen is selected, a black rectangle called the >>>>>> VoiceOver cursor appears around it. The VoiceOver cursor is >>>>>> displayed for the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>>>> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, VoiceOver includes a >>>>>> screen curtain that turns off the display so no one can read it >>>>>> without your knowledge. >>>>>> >>>>>> In addition to touching and dragging around the screen, you can also >>>>>> flick left and right to move the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the >>>>>> next or previous item on the screen­no matter how big or small it >>>>>> is. By flicking, you have precise control of what you hear even when >>>>>> it might otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Entering Text >>>>>> >>>>>> When you’re typing text, such as an email message or a note, >>>>>> VoiceOver echoes each character on the keyboard as you touch it, and >>>>>> again to confirm when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>>>> speak each completed word instead of and in addition to individual >>>>>> characters as you type them. A flick up or down while typing moves >>>>>> the insertion point cursor left and right within the text so you can >>>>>> edit a word just as easily and precisely as typing a new word. >>>>>> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> To help you type more quickly and accurately, iPhone features word >>>>>> prediction and suggests the correct spelling when you type a word >>>>>> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll hear a sound >>>>>> effect and the suggested word spoken automatically. You can just >>>>>> keep typing to ignore it, or press the space key to have iPhone type >>>>>> it for you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The Rotor >>>>>> >>>>>> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual control called a “rotor.” >>>>>> Turning the rotor­ by rotating two fingers on the screen as if you >>>>>> were turning an actual dial ­ changes the way VoiceOver moves >>>>>> through a document based on a setting you choose. For example, a >>>>>> flick up or down might move through text word by word. But when you >>>>>> choose the “character” setting, each time you flick up or down >>>>>> VoiceOver will move through the text character by character ­ >>>>>> perfect when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. When you’re on a >>>>>> web page, the rotor contains the names of common items, such as >>>>>> headers, links, tables, images, and more. You select a setting, then >>>>>> flick up and down to move to the previous or next occurrence of that >>>>>> item on the page, skipping over items in between. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Applications >>>>>> >>>>>> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in applications that come with >>>>>> iPhone 3G S, such as Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. >>>>>> So, you can place and receive calls, surf the web, text and email >>>>>> your friends, check your stocks and the weather, and much, much >>>>>> more. Apple is also working with iPhone software developers so they >>>>>> can make their applications VoiceOver compatible. >>>>>> Learn >>>>>> more >>>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Voice Control >>>>>> >>>>>> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice to play music and >>>>>> make a phone call. Just press and hold the home button, listen for >>>>>> the audio prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, or >>>>>> playlist you want to hear. You can pause, play, change tracks, even >>>>>> shuffle your music. >>>>>> >>>>>> When you want to make a call, speak the name or telephone number of >>>>>> the person you want to call. iPhone 3G S understands 21 different >>>>>> languages. >>>>>> Learn >>>>>> >>>>>> more >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Zoom >>>>>> >>>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in and out specific >>>>>> elements such as images in Mail, or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom >>>>>> lets you magnify the entire screen of any application you’re using >>>>>> to help you see what’s on the display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone >>>>>> 3G S using iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for yourself or >>>>>> someone else, or later, using the Accessibility menu in the Settings >>>>>> application on the iPhone. >>>>>> >>>>>> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, Unlock, and Spotlight >>>>>> screens­even with applications you purchase from the App store. >>>>>> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly zooms in and out >>>>>> 200% and you can double-tap and drag three fingers to dynamically >>>>>> adjust the magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when zoomed, >>>>>> you can continue using all of the familiar flick, pinch, tap and >>>>>> other iPhone gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom can >>>>>> also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak auto-text. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> White On Black >>>>>> >>>>>> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, iPhone 3G S provides >>>>>> an option to change the display to White On Black. This reverse >>>>>> video affect works in all applications including the Home, Unlock, >>>>>> and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom and VoiceOver. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Speak Auto-text >>>>>> >>>>>> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you finish typing it or a >>>>>> correction when a word is misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>>>>> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re presented. When >>>>>> zoomed, for example, the suggestion might not be visible on screen, >>>>>> but you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If you’re using >>>>>> VoiceOver, you won't have to interrupt your typing and touch the >>>>>> suggestion to hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>>>> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>>>> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Tactile Buttons >>>>>> >>>>>> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible physical buttons used to >>>>>> control the phone: the Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; >>>>>> the Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, located on the >>>>>> upper-left edge; and the Home button, centered below the display. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>>>> >>>>>> For improved email readability, you can increase the default font >>>>>> size of email text from Medium (the default) to Large, Extra-large, >>>>>> or Giant. >>>>>> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>>>> >>>>>> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a high-performance >>>>>> microphone built into the cable. Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm >>>>>> stereo headphone jack and the headset lets you control music >>>>>> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the built-in remote >>>>>> control button. >>>>>> >>>>>> Several add-on products are also available to work with iPhone that >>>>>> can help those with hearing disabilities, including a hearing >>>>>> aid-compatible induction ear loop from >>>>>> TecEar, wireless remote >>>>>> headset from Oticon, and others. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>>>> >>>>>> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in speakerphone, >>>>>> which you can also use to listen to Visual Voicemail, music, >>>>>> podcasts, and video. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>>>> >>>>>> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both audible and visual >>>>>> alerts. You can activate alerts for phone calls, text messages, >>>>>> incoming and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also offers an >>>>>> audio option confirming keyboard clicks. You can even set incoming >>>>>> calls to display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>>>> >>>>>> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of playing a tone. To ensure >>>>>> that you never miss a notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate >>>>>> and play an audio alert. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>>>> >>>>>> You can assign distinctive ringtones to individuals in your contacts >>>>>> list, using the ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the iTunes >>>>>> Store to create, purchase, and download additional ringtones of your >>>>>> favorite songs (sold separately). >>>>>> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>>>> >>>>>> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML format designed >>>>>> with accessibility in mind. You can read the guide using your >>>>>> favorite screen reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and using >>>>>> Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>>>> Hearing >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>>>> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freedmas%40stolaf.edu >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rmlambert1987%40yahoo.com > > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 03:15:48 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:15:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 References: <20090610095053.3955.81600@web1.serotek.com> Message-ID: <00F0D460787B4A0E929814CE2747A070@Ashley> Hi Jim, I'm glad you had a positive experience with the cane. A folding aluminum cane with a roller tip is a good quality cane. But its disadvantage is the heaviness. I used to have a folding aluminum cane. I'm not sure its a good idea to teach yourself O&M since you may develop improper habits that will be hard to correct. Still I understand your desire to learn. Its great you felt more confident and safe with it at night when your vision cannot work for you. I have some vision too. Acuity is actually good but my field is so limited rendering my vision not sufficient for travel. I just see straight ahead. So the cane makes me more confident to detect curbs and side objects out of my field of vision. Its too bad the O&M instructor didn't teach you how to use it. Unfortunately that's typical of instructors that visit clients at home. They first talk to you to evaluate the situation. They should have discussed your goals for O&M. Because they have high caseloads the lessons are infrequent and I hope you get a lesson before the end of June. My advice is slightly different than others as I think there's many options out there. I'm not a strong Federationist. I suggest you get a lighter cane that's taller as everyone else said. The one you have is free, but if you can afford one there's several choices. You might be able to ask your O&M instructor to bring different canes to sample. Ambutech makes graphite canes I think. If not other companies do. I have a folding cane made of graphite inside and its half the weight of the aluminum! No wonder your wrist hurts from constantly picking it up! You can also try the NFB fiber glass canes but there's several cane companies out there that may also meet your needs. I think your cane should come up to your chin. You need a longer cane for adaquate warning. In order not to get blisters or "hot spots" maybe you were gripping the cane too tightly. I also think alternating hands is a good idea to give one hand a rest for long walks like you did. I have used a cane since I was eight. Professionals realized my vision wasn't adaquate to travel. Mobility instruction in school is inadaquate since they have too many students to see but that's another story. I haven't had too much opportunity for independent travel and don't have a good sense of direction. Its not a strength. Still I did the basics of traveling alone around college campus and went some places alone such as the mall to shop and eat during college. I say this for background. Still here's my answers for what its worth. Traveling is an individual thing and what works for one doesn't work for another. Here it goes. I answer after your question. How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? If you slide your cane in an arc it should detect curbs. Its called constant contact. Most federationists use the tapping method called two point touch. Personally I like constant interaction with the ground and find it gives me more info. To keep track of what street you're on, there's a number of ways. In your case you can read the names and remember for later on when you can't see. People without enough vision to see them ask. You can ask about street names and remember the layout. If there's numbered streets they likely will go up or down in number. You can listen to traffic to tell major streets from side streets. You can count blocks. Mostly its memory. How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? You just think about it, what you're doing and make sure you have good technique. Later on it will be natural and you don't have to think about the mechanics of cane travel. If my mind wanders what helps me is I ask myself questions about the environment. I have to focus since otherwise I easily get lost! Actually in familiar environments I can drift off a bit since its so ingrained from routine I don't have to think. But usually not. Since I still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads? You could use your vision to check. But try developing trust and alternative methods of figuring it out. Maybe there's landmarks by major streets. I think its fine to find out where you are when you hit the main road. As long as you're traveling in the right direction, knowing every little street isn't neccessary. Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? No. You won't have wrist pain with a change in cane weight. Until then maybe shorter walks with the cane is good. Part of it is conditioning in that your muscles are not used to this work. Maybe build up to those long walks. so I think a combo of conditioning and trying lighter canes will help. What is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? Many cane matterials are strong and light weight. Graphite canes are strong and durable. Rainshine canes are strong too and looked pretty durable when I saw them. I was walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? You may want to slow down while you learn and get used to the cane. But in general you can walk as fast as you normally do. I just think as a beginner you can get more feedback and react to the tactile feedback from the cane if you slow down. Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? I'd say either wait or at least ask someone whose used a cane for guidance. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Jim, Here are some suggestions to help you in the future. These may also be useful to others, so I post them here. First, regarding cane length. Yes, you will want a longer cane to fully cover the length of your stride. The longer cane will also make it easier to detect those down curbs you mentioned at a reasonable clip. Let's briefly talk about cane composition. Length gives you the advantage of stopping distance and maneuverability. What I'm about to suggest is controversial for a lot of reasons, but the collective experience of many expert cane travelers suggests that you may want to consider a lighter cane, especially one that is fiberglass or carbon fiber. I would also recommend according to that same collective experience, that you don't use a folding cane because the elastic places a barrier between you and the sensations you could be getting. Folding canes are great, but not if you want maximum sensativity. As an option, consider a telescoping cane for collapsability. But for long walks on rugged terrain, consider a straight cane (one that doesn't collapse) and a collapsing one when you're mostly going to travel by plane, car, be indoors, etc. If echolocation is useful to you, you may consider a metal tip for maximum sound as an echolocator. But if echolocation isn't useful because of your hearing loss, still consider the metal tip as it's also quite sensitive and much lighter than the roller tip which means that you exert less effort lifting the cane to make an arc, thus saving your wrist and preventing blistering. Also, to prevent blistering, consider a smooth plastic handle rather than a grippy leather one. In short, think about getting an NfB cane as we tend to make them long, light, and with a center of gravity that's closer to the top of the cane itself rather than the bottom. Now, as to orientation. That's another matter entirely. your instructor may not know how to orient in practice because she is a sighted person who doesn't use the knowledge on a regular basis and probably doesn't really believe that blind people can really travel anyway. This isn't true for all sighted instructors. the best sighted instructors are those who spent a lot of time under blindfold in the company of blind people, learning what the blind do through practice and guided mentoring from good blind travelers. Most sighted instructors get limited practice under blindfold and only see blind travelers on their lessons, so their knowledge tends to be more theoretical than practical. There isn't much you can do about that except to hang around blind people who are good at cane travel and who can really offer you practical suggestions on how to orient. Your teacher may be able to offer some help, but you will have to be the one to provide practical experience on your own unless you've actually observed your instructor actually get around with a blindfold. Knowing basic orientation skills (using non-visual information to discover your location) will negate the need for a flashlight. The more practiced you become, the more you can daydream on a midnight walk. Much of what I tell you comes from collective experience and from my own educational background both in cane travel and in blindness studies. Nonetheless, it's fantastic that the cane skills you have, and the cane itself, gave you a measure of confidence even at the beginning stages of your cane travel journey. Just imagine how confident and how fluid you will become when you get to a level of true experience! you'll be movin' and groovin' before you know it! Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hey all, > I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M > instructor ever, me! You see, the VR O/M instructor came to my house > today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told me I > might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she also told > me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm sorry, but you > dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of > course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding > aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, I did the test > suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I > took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I > normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop > as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. > Apparantly, if the cane is the right length, you should be able to take > two full steps after your cane detects > an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I was > able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane recognizing the > wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or patience to half-ass > anything, I need a longer cane. > My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have long > legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining the "step left- swing right, > step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got tired and my > cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. Additionally, I > developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty of hiking experience > that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. > I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back; some blocks had minimal > street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I felt > confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel was easy > (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). The travel > may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead the way and my > thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should wander on a > pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block > I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily > figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on > curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch > drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb was > there. > Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride out", > and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane knocked > off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel more safe and > confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I dislike walking as a > form of travel, I intend > to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk > enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my > skills. > I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident "shorelining" > along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost confidence when I felt > myself nearing the curb, and I also lost confidence when I was on an > angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty enough, I instinctivly found > myself following my cane: if my cane dropped off the edge of the curb and > rode along the street for a while, I found myself angling towards the > street, even though I knew I did not want to go that way, and I knew there > was a rolled ankle in my future if I continued that way. > Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near broke > the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link fence, > and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the tip of the > cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence provided enough > pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal position. The > internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal position, but I have > the feeling that I may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. > Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive experience, > and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really nice to be able > to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they make a quiet cane? To > me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides any auditory feedback > that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd like to be able to hear > myself think. > A couple of questions: > How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How do > I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still have > vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I > know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to > know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly > where I am once I hit one of those main roads? Is the wrist pain unavoidle > until I become conditioned to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest > cane material for the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was > walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me > to expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? Is it > a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really wait > for the O/M instructor? > Thanks, > Jim > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4145 (20090610) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Jun 11 03:27:15 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:27:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of ms word 2007 Message-ID: Hi all, I really don’t understand Microsoft Word 2007 and could use some suggestions. I use jaws 10. At work I saw the latest version of MS office applications. Its so different. In 2003 you know you can go to the menus with the keys such as file, edit, view and tools by pressing alt and the letter and down arrow. For instance Alt O for Format and arrow down twice for bullets and numbers. In 2007 it seems less accessible with all these buttons on top and no menus! So the normal menu commands don’t work, or at least all of them don’t! So how do I get to what would be the file menu to open or save files? How do I get to tools to select word count and other items under tools? Do many of the short cut commands I already know still work. For instance Control C, x, and V for copy/cut/paste? Another is the command control B or I or U for Bold/Italics/underline. I can’t seem to change font or navigate well. I could use some common commands list and help! Thanks. Ashley From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 04:06:38 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:06:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <7C56F108-266E-427B-AEF1-0784F24F11DB@gmail.com> References: <20090609083728.24405.10945@web3.serotek.com> <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> <7C56F108-266E-427B-AEF1-0784F24F11DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7DC7B602-318C-44C2-A9D1-CDB7984A6394@gmail.com> Ahha... Ok. But you'd think you'd still be able to hack it in some way or another, or do they have that to where it's tricky at best... if at all? On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:28 PM, Corbb O'Connor wrote: > Clinton, > > The older iPhones were "unlockable" because they had a removable SIM > card. Now, the iPhones (newer 3G and all 3GS models) do not use SIM > cards -- they're like a Verizon phone. The SIM card is embedded. The > one nice thing, though, is that it's absolutely foolish to steal a > new iPhone, just like a Verizon; when the owner finds out, they send > a kill signal and now your phone NEVER works again. > > Corbb > > On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:24 PM, clinton waterbury wrote: > > People have unlocked the older Iphones, why not this new one? > On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > >> Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone >> will not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock >> it. >> >> Dezman >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "alena roberts" > > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >> >> >> I think that this technology is going to be awesome for the blind >> community, especially young people like us. The IPhone will be the >> least expensive accessible cell phone on the market. I am sure that >> learning to use the phone might be a bit of a challenge, but if it >> works, than we'll have a phone, a real web browser, and an mp3 player >> all in one device that we can utilize. All I have to say is Woot. >> >> On 6/9/09, Brice Smith wrote: >>> >>> I agree with you. that's why I said: >>> >>> "For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by a >>> press >>> release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader." >>> >>> Just saying. >>> >>> >>> >>> Brice >>>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:37:28 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>> >>>> Well, regardless of what you think about Apple and its products, it >>>> sounds like they may have brought us that much closer to solving >>>> the >>>> touch screen problem once and for all. Can you imagine how this >>>> software could be adapted so it's available for all touch-screen >>>> products at low or no cost to the user? We could then occupy jobs >>>> that >>>> require the use of touch-screens for data entry, we could process >>>> our >>>> own credit information at stores, and we could interface with >>>> consumer >>>> electronics that don't have buttons. How cool is that? We can't >>>> hate on >>>> those who innovate, can we? >>>> >>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>> >>>> >>>> Original message: >>>> >>>> > I'm happy with my N82. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > I've always resisted Apple; I think it's a bit over rated. >>>> >>>> >>>> > I've always looked down on macs and the masses that buy them; >>>> IMO, the >>>> > only people who really need them are those who do lots of film or >>>> > digital editing or other high-level processes -- PCs are >>>> perfectly fine >>>> > for basic computing, which is all most people do anyway. Macs >>>> are just >>>> > a popular craze. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > I've always thought iPods were nothing special, inferior to >>>> other, less >>>> > popular but more feature-filled products. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > But this ... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > For what it's worth, I don't think I've been more interested by >>>> a press >>>> > release concerning accessible technology since the KNFB Reader. >>>> >>>> > Brice >>>> >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:58:09 -0500 >>>> >> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org >>>> >> From: dandrews at visi.com >>>> >> Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Vision >>>> >>>> >> The revolutionary iPhone also includes an equally >>>> >> revolutionary screen reader, and other innovative >>>> >> accessibility features that make it easier to use >>>> >> for those with impaired vision. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver >>>> >>>> >> iPhone 3G S displaying VoiceOver settings. The VoiceOver and Sp >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> The same VoiceOver screen reader made popular on >>>> >> the Mac is now a standard feature on the iPhone >>>> >> 3G S. It’s the world’s first gesture-based screen >>>> >> reader, enabling you to enjoy the fun and >>>> >> simplicity of the iPhone even if you can't see the screen. >>>> >>>> >> What makes VoiceOver on iPhone truly remarkable >>>> >> is that you control it using simple gestures that >>>> >> let you physically interact with items on screen. >>>> >> It’s easy to learn and fun to use. Instead of >>>> >> memorizing hundreds of keyboard commands, or >>>> >> endlessly pressing tiny arrow keys to find what >>>> >> you’re looking for, with VoiceOver, you simply >>>> >> touch the screen to hear a description of the >>>> >> item under your finger, then gesture with a >>>> >> double-tap, drag, or flick to control the phone. >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver delivers an experience unlike any >>>> >> screen reader you've ever used before. >>>> >> Traditional screen readers describe individual >>>> >> elements on the screen, but struggle to >>>> >> communicate where each element is located or >>>> >> provide information about adjoining objects. This >>>> >> contextual information is very important but >>>> >> typically filtered out by other screen readers. >>>> >> For example, “off-screen” models used by >>>> >> traditional screen readers to represent >>>> >> applications and web pages intentionally strip >>>> >> away contextual information and describe web >>>> >> pages as a list or menu of items. But with >>>> >> VoiceOver on iPhone 3G S, you'll experience something entirely >>>> new. >>>> >>>> >> Because VoiceOver works with iPhone’s >>>> >> touchscreen, you interact directly with objects >>>> >> on the screen and can naturally understand their >>>> >> location and context. So, when you touch the >>>> >> upper-left corner of the screen, you'll hear >>>> >> what’s in the upper left corner of a web page, >>>> >> and as you drag your finger around the screen, >>>> >> you'll learn what’s nearby, providing an amazing >>>> >> new sense of context and relationship between the >>>> >> items you hear. For many, VoiceOver on iPhone >>>> >> will provide, perhaps for the first time, a true >>>> >> sense of how things appear on screen, not just descriptions of >>>> what >>>> >> they are. >>>> >>>> >> You'll hear descriptions of every item on the >>>> >> screen, including status information such as >>>> >> battery level, Wi-Fi and cellular network signal >>>> >> levels, the cellular network provider, and time >>>> >> of day. It even lets you know when the display >>>> >> changes to landscape or portrait orientation, and >>>> >> when the screen is locked or unlocked. >>>> >>>> >> The speaking rate is adjustable so you can set it >>>> >> to a speed that best suits your listening >>>> >> ability. VoiceOver uses distinctive sound effects >>>> >> to alert you when an application opens, when the >>>> >> screen is updated, when a message dialog appears, >>>> >> and more. And, when Voiceover is talking, the >>>> >> volume of background sounds and music are >>>> >> automatically lowered, “ducking” under the voice, >>>> >> so you can clearly hear what VoiceOver is telling you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> It speaks your language >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver includes built-in voices that speak 21 >>>> >> languages including Chinese (Cantonese), Chinese >>>> >> (China), Chinese (Taiwan), Dutch, English (US), >>>> >> English (UK), Finnish, French (Canada), French >>>> >> (France), German, Italian, Japanese, Korean, >>>> >> Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese (Brazil), >>>> >> Portuguese (Portugal), Russian, Spanish (Mexico), Spanish >>>> (Spain), and >>>> >> Swedish. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Getting started >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver is built right into the iPhone 3G S. >>>> >> There’s nothing extra to purchase or install. All >>>> >> you need is the iPhone 3G S, iTunes 8.2 or later, >>>> >> and a Mac or PC. You can activate your iPhone and >>>> >> enable VoiceOver without sighted assistance using >>>> >> iTunes with a compatible screen reader like >>>> >> VoiceOver included in Mac OS X and GW-Micro >>>> >> Window-Eyes® for Windows XP and Windows Vista >>>> >> (sold separately). When you activate iPhone using >>>> >> iTunes, you can enable VoiceOver on the iPhone to >>>> >> start using it right away. Sighted users can also >>>> >> enable VoiceOver for you directly on iPhone using >>>> >> the Accessibility menu in the Settings application. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> How it works >>>> >>>> >> With VoiceOver enabled, you'll use a different, >>>> >> but simple set of gestures to control the iPhone. >>>> >> For example, instead of tapping to click a button >>>> >> or select an item, you tap to hear a description >>>> >> of the item you touch and double-tap to click or select it. >>>> >>>> >> When an item on the screen is selected, a black >>>> >> rectangle called the VoiceOver cursor appears >>>> >> around it. The VoiceOver cursor is displayed for >>>> >> the benefit of sighted users with whom you may be >>>> >> sharing your phone. When you prefer privacy, >>>> >> VoiceOver includes a screen curtain that turns >>>> >> off the display so no one can read it without your knowledge. >>>> >>>> >> In addition to touching and dragging around the >>>> >> screen, you can also flick left and right to move >>>> >> the VoiceOver cursor precisely to the next or >>>> >> previous item on the screen no matter how big or >>>> >> small it is. By flicking, you have precise >>>> >> control of what you hear even when it might >>>> >> otherwise be difficult to place your finger on it. >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background shows the home screen >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Entering Text >>>> >>>> >> When you’re typing text, such as an email message >>>> >> or a note, VoiceOver echoes each character on the >>>> >> keyboard as you touch it, and again to confirm >>>> >> when you enter it. You can also have VoiceOver >>>> >> speak each completed word instead of and in >>>> >> addition to individual characters as you type >>>> >> them. A flick up or down while typing moves the >>>> >> insertion point cursor left and right within the >>>> >> text so you can edit a word just as easily and precisely as >>>> typing a >>>> >> new word. >>>> >> Two images side by side. The first shows a text-suggestion bubb >>>> >>>> >>>> >> To help you type more quickly and accurately, >>>> >> iPhone features word prediction and suggests the >>>> >> correct spelling when you type a word >>>> >> incorrectly. With Speak Auto-text enabled, you'll >>>> >> hear a sound effect and the suggested word spoken >>>> >> automatically. You can just keep typing to ignore >>>> >> it, or press the space key to have iPhone type it for you. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> The Rotor >>>> >>>> >> Two fingers touching a iPhone display and a counter-clockwise a >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver features an innovate new virtual >>>> >> control called a “rotor.” Turning the rotor by >>>> >> rotating two fingers on the screen as if you were >>>> >> turning an actual dial changes the way >>>> >> VoiceOver moves through a document based on a >>>> >> setting you choose. For example, a flick up or >>>> >> down might move through text word by word. But >>>> >> when you choose the “character” setting, each >>>> >> time you flick up or down VoiceOver will move >>>> >> through the text character by character perfect >>>> >> when you’re proofreading or editing text. >>>> >>>> >> You can also use the rotor to navigate web pages. >>>> >> When you’re on a web page, the rotor contains the >>>> >> names of common items, such as headers, links, >>>> >> tables, images, and more. You select a setting, >>>> >> then flick up and down to move to the previous or >>>> >> next occurrence of that item on the page, skipping over items in >>>> >> between. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Applications >>>> >>>> >> VoiceOver works with all of the built-in >>>> >> applications that come with iPhone 3G S, such as >>>> >> Phone, iPod, iTunes, Mail, Safari, and Maps. So, >>>> >> you can place and receive calls, surf the web, >>>> >> text and email your friends, check your stocks >>>> >> and the weather, and much, much more. Apple is >>>> >> also working with iPhone software developers so >>>> >> they can make their applications VoiceOver >>>> >> compatible. >>>> >> >>> >Learn >>>> >> more >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the foreground is displaying the Voi >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Voice Control >>>> >>>> >> In addition to gestures, you can use your voice >>>> >> to play music and make a phone call. Just press >>>> >> and hold the home button, listen for the audio >>>> >> prompt, and speak the name of the artist, album, >>>> >> or playlist you want to hear. You can pause, >>>> >> play, change tracks, even shuffle your music. >>>> >>>> >> When you want to make a call, speak the name or >>>> >> telephone number of the person you want to call. >>>> >> iPhone 3G S understands 21 different languages. >>>> >> >>> >Learn >>>> >> more >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Zoom >>>> >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the wea >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> While many iPhone applications let you zoom in >>>> >> and out specific elements such as images in Mail, >>>> >> or webpage columns in Safari, Zoom lets you >>>> >> magnify the entire screen of any application >>>> >> you’re using to help you see what’s on the >>>> >> display. Zoom can be enabled on iPhone 3G S using >>>> >> iTunes when you’re setting up the iPhone, for >>>> >> yourself or someone else, or later, using the >>>> >> Accessibility menu in the Settings application on the iPhone. >>>> >>>> >> Zoom works everywhere, including the Home, >>>> >> Unlock, and Spotlight screens even with >>>> >> applications you purchase from the App store. >>>> >> Two iPhones. The iPhone in the background is displaying the Acc >>>> >>>> >>>> >> A simple double-tap with three fingers instantly >>>> >> zooms in and out 200% and you can double-tap and >>>> >> drag three fingers to dynamically adjust the >>>> >> magnification between 100% and 500%. Even when >>>> >> zoomed, you can continue using all of the >>>> >> familiar flick, pinch, tap and other iPhone >>>> >> gestures to run your favorite applications. Zoom >>>> >> can also be used with white-on-black (reverse video) and speak >>>> >> auto-text. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> White On Black >>>> >>>> >> For those who need or prefer higher contrast, >>>> >> iPhone 3G S provides an option to change the >>>> >> display to White On Black. This reverse video >>>> >> affect works in all applications including the >>>> >> Home, Unlock, and Spotlight screens and can be used with Zoom >>>> and >>>> >> VoiceOver. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Speak Auto-text >>>> >>>> >> When typing, iPhone suggests a word before you >>>> >> finish typing it or a correction when a word is >>>> >> misspelled. Speak Auto-text speaks these >>>> >> suggestions so you can hear them when they’re >>>> >> presented. When zoomed, for example, the >>>> >> suggestion might not be visible on screen, but >>>> >> you can hear and accept it without seeing it. If >>>> >> you’re using VoiceOver, you won't have to >>>> >> interrupt your typing and touch the suggestion to >>>> >> hear it. Speak Auto-text can be enabled even when >>>> >> you’re not using VoiceOver or Zoom. >>>> >> Callouts indicate the name and location of the physical buttons >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Tactile Buttons >>>> >>>> >> iPhone includes a few, easily discernible >>>> >> physical buttons used to control the phone: the >>>> >> Sleep/Wake button, located on the top edge; the >>>> >> Ring/Silent switch and volume-control buttons, >>>> >> located on the upper-left edge; and the Home >>>> >> button, centered below the display. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Giant Fonts For Mail Messages >>>> >>>> >> For improved email readability, you can increase >>>> >> the default font size of email text from Medium >>>> >> (the default) to Large, Extra-large, or Giant. >>>> >> iPhone earbuds with clickable microphone built into the cable >>>> >>>> >>>> >> iPhone Stereo Headset >>>> >>>> >> iPhone comes with a stereo headset with a >>>> >> high-performance microphone built into the cable. >>>> >> Plug it into the standard 3.5 mm stereo headphone >>>> >> jack and the headset lets you control music >>>> >> playback and answer and end calls by clicking the >>>> >> built-in remote control button. >>>> >>>> >> Several add-on products are also available to >>>> >> work with iPhone that can help those with hearing >>>> >> disabilities, including a hearing aid-compatible >>>> >> induction ear loop from >>>> >> TecEar, >>>> >> wireless remote headset from Oticon, and >>>> others. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Hands-Free Speakerphone >>>> >>>> >> Enjoy hands-free communication using the built-in >>>> >> speakerphone, which you can also use to listen to >>>> >> Visual Voicemail, music, podcasts, and video. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Audible, Visible, And Vibrating Alerts >>>> >>>> >> Turn the ringer on, and iPhone delivers both >>>> >> audible and visual alerts. You can activate >>>> >> alerts for phone calls, text messages, incoming >>>> >> and sent mail, and calendar events. iPhone also >>>> >> offers an audio option confirming keyboard >>>> >> clicks. You can even set incoming calls to >>>> >> display a full-screen image or photo of the caller. >>>> >>>> >> In silent mode, iPhone vibrates instead of >>>> >> playing a tone. To ensure that you never miss a >>>> >> notification, you can also have iPhone vibrate and play an >>>> audio >> alert. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> Downloadable, Assignable Ringtones >>>> >>>> >> You can assign distinctive ringtones to >>>> >> individuals in your contacts list, using the >>>> >> ringtone as an audible caller ID. Visit the >>>> >> iTunes Store to create, purchase, and download >>>> >> additional ringtones of your favorite songs (sold separately). >>>> >> A visual representation of a ringtone sound wave as it might ap >>>> >>>> >>>> >> User Guide In Accessible HTML >>>> >>>> >> The iPhone User Guide is provided online in HTML >>>> >> format designed with accessibility in mind. You >>>> >> can read the guide using your favorite screen >>>> >> reader and web browser on your Mac and PC, and >>>> >> using Safari on the iPhone with VoiceOver. >>>> >> >>> >Hearing >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>>> >>>> > _________________________________________________________________ >>>> > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. >>>> > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > nabs-l mailing list >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> > nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. >>> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alena.roberts2282%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Alena Roberts >> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Thu Jun 11 05:21:25 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:21:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of ms word 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090611012125.03h1l2om8gsgsc04@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Ashley, I have no idea what they were thinking with MS 2007; it is certainly strange. Luckily many of the short-cut keys work, such as alt t for tools, and w for word count. I shudder to think what Excel is like if word is so non-JAWS friendly. ... May the force be with you :) Sarah Quoting Ashley Bramlett : > Hi all, > > > > I really don’t understand Microsoft Word 2007 and could use some suggestions. > > I use jaws 10. At work I saw the latest version of MS office > applications. Its so different. In 2003 you know you can go to the > menus with the keys such as file, edit, view and tools by pressing > alt and the letter and down arrow. > > For instance Alt O for Format and arrow down twice for bullets and > numbers. In 2007 it seems less accessible with all these buttons on > top and no menus! So the normal menu commands don’t work, or at > least all of them don’t! > > > > So how do I get to what would be the file menu to open or save > files? How do I get to tools to select word count and other items > under tools? Do many of the short cut commands I already know still > work. For instance Control C, x, and V for copy/cut/paste? > Another is the command control B or I or U for > Bold/Italics/underline. > > I can’t seem to change font or navigate well. I could use some > common commands list and help! > > > > Thanks. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From monika_r_r at hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 08:40:37 2009 From: monika_r_r at hotmail.com (Monika Reinholz) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:40:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <20090611022950.15077.55567@web3.serotek.com> References: <20090611022950.15077.55567@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: And that is why I am glad to be a sighted member of the NFB. Even though I knew that a blind person could do anything a sighted person can before I joined, I have learned a lot more about how it can be done since joining. Monika Reinholz > From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:50 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby > > Beth, > > what your really dealing with is a psychosocial problem rather than a > physical one. The sighted can't imagine how a blind person can safely > opperate an emergency exit row let alone do much anything else because, > in their world view, sight is a basic requirement for function and > leisure. we know differently. sight is a convenience, not a necessary > prerequisite. when a sighted person meets a blind person, their first > thought usually is, "what would I do if I were in that situation? I'd > be afraid and unable to cope!" Most sighted people don't recognize that > they're suffering from a lack of information regarding blindness until > you point it out to them. When they really understand that they need > educating, most are open and willing to engage in the process. Those > who aren't are experiencing good old-fashioned prejudice that spans as > far back as ancient antiquitiy with the help of the blind prophet and > the blind beggar. Sounds simplistic. Mostly, it's not, but that's the > basic run-down of the thing. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: > > Ok. But most airlines say, "You must be able to "see" the exit." Why > > is this and how can we justify being able to sit in an exit row? > > Beth > > > On 6/10/09, Monika Reinholz wrote: > > >> Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the others, > >> therefore having more space for someones legs to be comfortable during > >> flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even though Im ony 5'5" because > >> its more comfortable for the legs. I can understand the kid rule they have > >> for the row but I believe everyone knows what they can do best. If a blind > >> person knows s/he can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and let > >> them sit where they are most comfortable. > > >> Monika > > >> Monika Reinholz > > > > >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 > >>> From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com > >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to > >>> travelalone; Burnaby > > >>> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency > >>> row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows > >>> anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. > >>> Beth > > >>> On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: > >>>> Hey all, > > >>>> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people > >>>> are > >>>> not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an > >>>> emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. > >>>> BTW, > >>>> I start cane travel training today. > > >>>> Jim > > >>>> "From compromise and things half done, > >>>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > >>>> And when at last the fight is won, > >>>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu Jun 11 09:44:26 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:44:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby Message-ID: <20090611094426.26695.44916@web3.serotek.com> Monika, The benefits to having sighted folks like you in our ranks are two-fold. First, you serve as a living example of the relationship blind and sighted people can share together: one free of dominance and one built in mutual trust and empowerment. Second, you have a unique ability to share our message with the sighted community in a way that your sighted peers will understand. Thanks for the work you and the other sighted folks do with us. We're honored to have you as part of our cause. Cheers. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > And that is why I am glad to be a sighted member of the NFB. Even > though I knew that a blind person could do anything a sighted person > can before I joined, I have learned a lot more about how it can be done > since joining. > Monika Reinholz >> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:50 -0400 >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >> travelalone; Burnaby >> Beth, >> what your really dealing with is a psychosocial problem rather than a >> physical one. The sighted can't imagine how a blind person can safely >> opperate an emergency exit row let alone do much anything else because, >> in their world view, sight is a basic requirement for function and >> leisure. we know differently. sight is a convenience, not a necessary >> prerequisite. when a sighted person meets a blind person, their first >> thought usually is, "what would I do if I were in that situation? I'd >> be afraid and unable to cope!" Most sighted people don't recognize that >> they're suffering from a lack of information regarding blindness until >> you point it out to them. When they really understand that they need >> educating, most are open and willing to engage in the process. Those >> who aren't are experiencing good old-fashioned prejudice that spans as >> far back as ancient antiquitiy with the help of the blind prophet and >> the blind beggar. Sounds simplistic. Mostly, it's not, but that's the >> basic run-down of the thing. >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> Ok. But most airlines say, "You must be able to "see" the exit." Why >>> is this and how can we justify being able to sit in an exit row? >>> Beth >>> On 6/10/09, Monika Reinholz wrote: >>>> Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the others, >>>> therefore having more space for someones legs to be comfortable during >>>> flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even though Im ony 5'5" because >>>> its more comfortable for the legs. I can understand the kid rule they have >>>> for the row but I believe everyone knows what they can do best. If a blind >>>> person knows s/he can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and let >>>> them sit where they are most comfortable. >>>> Monika >>>> Monika Reinholz >>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 >>>>> From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >>>>> travelalone; Burnaby >>>>> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency >>>>> row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows >>>>> anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. >>>>> Beth >>>>> On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: >>>>>> Hey all, >>>>>> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind people >>>>>> are >>>>>> not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an >>>>>> emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the airport/airplane. >>>>>> BTW, >>>>>> I start cane travel training today. >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> "From compromise and things half done, >>>>>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>>>>> And when at last the fight is won, >>>>>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 10:57:24 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:57:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of ms word 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <813597C944D84D3B898DD9317972BD8A@Jessica> Ashley and All, Freedom Scientific does have Basic Training Materials for Office 2007. If you don't have the Basic Training installed on your computer go to Help and Check for updates. and you will find the Office 2007 with JAWS Daisy Book. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:27 PM Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of ms word 2007 Hi all, I really don�t understand Microsoft Word 2007 and could use some suggestions. I use jaws 10. At work I saw the latest version of MS office applications. Its so different. In 2003 you know you can go to the menus with the keys such as file, edit, view and tools by pressing alt and the letter and down arrow. For instance Alt O for Format and arrow down twice for bullets and numbers. In 2007 it seems less accessible with all these buttons on top and no menus! So the normal menu commands don�t work, or at least all of them don�t! So how do I get to what would be the file menu to open or save files? How do I get to tools to select word count and other items under tools? Do many of the short cut commands I already know still work. For instance Control C, x, and V for copy/cut/paste? Another is the command control B or I or U for Bold/Italics/underline. I can�t seem to change font or navigate well. I could use some common commands list and help! Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 17:42:58 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:42:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: <20090611094426.26695.44916@web3.serotek.com> References: <20090611094426.26695.44916@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906111042k3693c00dyf3e24ba8be4e6a54@mail.gmail.com> That's funny. I wonder why though every video I've watched on every airline says you need to be able to "see" the exit of an exit row. But oh well. As long as I don't have o sit away from the exit or in a bulkhead seat, I guess I'll be fine. Beth On 6/11/09, Jedi wrote: > Monika, > > The benefits to having sighted folks like you in our ranks are > two-fold. First, you serve as a living example of the relationship > blind and sighted people can share together: one free of dominance and > one built in mutual trust and empowerment. Second, you have a unique > ability to share our message with the sighted community in a way that > your sighted peers will understand. Thanks for the work you and the > other sighted folks do with us. We're honored to have you as part of > our cause. Cheers. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > > Original message: > >> And that is why I am glad to be a sighted member of the NFB. Even >> though I knew that a blind person could do anything a sighted person >> can before I joined, I have learned a lot more about how it can be done >> since joining. >> Monika Reinholz > > > >>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:50 -0400 >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >>> travelalone; Burnaby > >>> Beth, > >>> what your really dealing with is a psychosocial problem rather than a >>> physical one. The sighted can't imagine how a blind person can safely >>> opperate an emergency exit row let alone do much anything else because, >>> in their world view, sight is a basic requirement for function and >>> leisure. we know differently. sight is a convenience, not a necessary >>> prerequisite. when a sighted person meets a blind person, their first >>> thought usually is, "what would I do if I were in that situation? I'd >>> be afraid and unable to cope!" Most sighted people don't recognize that >>> they're suffering from a lack of information regarding blindness until >>> you point it out to them. When they really understand that they need >>> educating, most are open and willing to engage in the process. Those >>> who aren't are experiencing good old-fashioned prejudice that spans as >>> far back as ancient antiquitiy with the help of the blind prophet and >>> the blind beggar. Sounds simplistic. Mostly, it's not, but that's the >>> basic run-down of the thing. > >>> Respectfully Submitted > >>> Original message: >>>> Ok. But most airlines say, "You must be able to "see" the exit." Why >>>> is this and how can we justify being able to sit in an exit row? >>>> Beth > >>>> On 6/10/09, Monika Reinholz wrote: > >>>>> Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the >>>>> others, >>>>> therefore having more space for someones legs to be comfortable during >>>>> flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even though Im ony 5'5" >>>>> because >>>>> its more comfortable for the legs. I can understand the kid rule they >>>>> have >>>>> for the row but I believe everyone knows what they can do best. If a >>>>> blind >>>>> person knows s/he can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and >>>>> let >>>>> them sit where they are most comfortable. > >>>>> Monika > >>>>> Monika Reinholz > > > >>>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 >>>>>> From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >>>>>> travelalone; Burnaby > >>>>>> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency >>>>>> row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows >>>>>> anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. >>>>>> Beth > >>>>>> On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: >>>>>>> Hey all, > >>>>>>> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an >>>>>>> emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the >>>>>>> airport/airplane. >>>>>>> BTW, >>>>>>> I start cane travel training today. > >>>>>>> Jim > >>>>>>> "From compromise and things half done, >>>>>>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>>>>>> And when at last the fight is won, >>>>>>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 18:06:51 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:06:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [acb-l] nfb files idea complaint in utah Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe harcz" To: "blind democracy List" Cc: Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:52 PM Subject: [acb-l] nfb files idea complaint in utah National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against the Utah State Office of Education SALT LAKE CITY, June 9 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The National Federation of the Blind, its Utah affiliate, and its subsidiary organization, the Utah Parents of Blind Children, filed a complaint today against the Utah State Office of Education (USOE) alleging violations of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) and comparable state law. The organizations represent parents with blind and visually impaired children in Utah's public and charter schools who receive services primarily through the Blind Outreach program of the Utah Schools for the Deaf and Blind (USDB). The complaint alleges systemic problems at the USOE and within the USDB Blind Outreach program that prevent Utah's blind and visually impaired students from receiving a free appropriate public education as required by law. Complainants allege that these systemic problems have: List of 5 items � Resulted in failure to provide appropriate individualized evaluations crucial for determining needed educational support/services; � Prevented blind and visually impaired students from receiving timely access to textbooks and course materials in alternative formats like Braille and large print; � Caused students to receive state test materials in Braille with multiple errors and omissions, making test results invalid; � Denied students appropriate Braille instruction; and � Resulted in a lack of access to appropriate assistive technology and related training necessary to support literacy and curriculum access. list end Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind and visually impaired students can compete on terms of equality with their sighted peers and go on to lead productive and successful lives, but only if they are provided with an equal education. The National Federation of the Blind will do everything in our power to ensure that every blind and visually impaired child receives the educational services he or she needs to succeed, and that is why we have brought this action." Ron Gardner, president of the National Federation of the Blind of Utah, said: "For many years now we have waited in vain for the USOE and the USDB to implement effective policies and hire needed personnel to ensure equal education for Utah's blind and visually impaired children. We hope that this complaint will be the catalyst for a constructive dialogue that will finally resolve the outstanding issues and remove the barriers that stand in the way of the free appropriate public education to which blind and visually impaired students in Utah are entitled by law." Marla Palmer, president of the Utah Parents of Blind Children, said: "Nothing is more frustrating to a parent than seeing his or her child struggle in school for no other reason than that the child doesn't have a Braille textbook or can't access the school computer system. We are not asking for special treatment for our children; we are only asking that the state do what is required by law and create a level playing field where our children can succeed on their own merits." SOURCE National Federation of the Blind of Utah From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 11 18:26:38 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Donating blood/plasma Message-ID: <461842.27056.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I have a question for you all; I am wqondering if anyone has ever thought of, or tried this before.  I live in a town that has a Biolife Plasma Center. Essentially, its kinda like donating blood, except they donl take the blood, just the plasma,  and return the rest, You can get paid for this "donation"- you can go twice a week, you can make $50 a week, and make up to $200 a month. When I had my car I used to go out there twice a week, every week. Now that I dont have my car I cant get out there. There are buses that run that way, but they are so infrequent that the bus is not practicle. Additionally, the polasma process is unpredicatable, some times you can be in and out of the center in one- hour, but sometimes it takes 2 hours. That unpredictability is not good when yoy have a bus to catch and a 1.5 hour wait if you miss the bus. Billings does have a cab service, but it would be a $16 round-trip;  hardly worth it to make $20. I called Biolife and spoke to an assistant manager, I explained that I am a blind guy who used to donate regularly, and wanted to restart. I told him that I noticed plent of off-peak times when the center is pretty empty. I suggested that Biolife arrainge a shuttle bus during these times, or contract with the cab service. The assistant manager thought I had a good idea and was going to pass it along to the general manager. I was wondering, have any of you tried anything lke this with eather a biolife center, or a blood bank? to what sucess? thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 20:19:57 2009 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Word 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Just a few things to put your mind at ease about Word '07. First. Yes, cut, copy and paste commands are still the same, as well as keyboard commands to bold, underline, center, left align, etc... Also, commands to directly open dialogue boxes are still the same, e.g. control D to open the font dialogue. Now, here's the fun part. The alt based keyboard strokes that used to give you access to the menu bar will still perform the same actions, but they will not take you through the familiar menus. For example, you can still press alt T and then W to bring up word count, but alt T alone will not open a tools menu. This is obviously because there is no tools menu to open. They left the ability to use the alt based commands in so people who became used to them can continue to use them, but the menu structure off of which they were based is no longer there. I guess they are allowing us to wean ourselves off slowly. This all also holds true for Excel. I hope this is helpful. If it isn't clear or if you have any questions, feel free to shoot me an email. All the Best, Sean Whalen From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 21:39:24 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:39:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Adobie Reader 9 Message-ID: <004801c9eadd$18182f80$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Hi I have a pdf file I need to open but I wanted to know if there is a way to change the settings. Are there certain settings it should be set to? After it opens the document it then tells me the document is empty. Can someone please help me out asap? Thanks. Rania, From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 11 22:55:47 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:55:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Article sent from ksl.com References: Message-ID: <002c01c9eae7$c2ce8870$0701a8c0@Serene> Go NFB! Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Article sent from ksl.com > Finally... A battle against 1 of many schools for the deaf and blind. > http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=6770856 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 23:19:33 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <7C56F108-266E-427B-AEF1-0784F24F11DB@gmail.com> References: <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> <7C56F108-266E-427B-AEF1-0784F24F11DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090611231933.GB7645@yumi.bluecherry.net> Corbb, I'm sorry but this is not true. They have SIM cards and they can be popped out just as easily. This is essentially required. The iPhone has two "computers" in it, one for the main phone, and one that does nothing but talk to the radio hardware. While you can talk to the one computer via the USB cable, the other one is accessible only by software running on the first computer. We can pretty much do lots of fun things to the main computer, but the "baseband" computer is only accessible through a little tiny interface, and Apple's removed most of the useful commands from that interface. You can't read or write the baseband, you can only upload a new one that is a newer version. The newer version is checked to prove that it has Apple's cryptographic signature on it. That means a security exploit is needed either in the baseband or in the baseband chip's boot loader. We have the former, but not for the latest version of the baseband. But if your baseband version is newer than that, you're out of luck because the 3G's boot loaders have not been defeated. Well, one of the older ones has, and it has allowed baseband downgrades, but that's it. The newest 3G phones are simply locked, and there's not much we can do about it yet. Ultimately Apple will win this game or they'll run out of ideas to stop us. The problem is we have to hundreds of man hours to find an exploit we can sue and figure out how. Apple only needs to see what we did and patch it so that we can't in the future. Given that the 3G and soon also the 3G S are available overseas unlocked for any carrier and without contract, that's the easiest solution. These phones are not intended to land in US customers' hands, but there's not much Apple do about it since they're sold unlocked so that businesspeople can travel and use their phone in different countries by swapping SIMs. AT&T can't make them try to police that, but they can make them not sell the unlocked versions in the US, as part of their exclusivity deal. I'm pretty sure Verizon's still kicking themselves over that, since the iPhone was reportedly almost theirs. They wanted to have control over the user interface colors (red and white to match their corporate image..) The report is that Apple said no, and so Verizon walked out of the deal. The 3G S will be available internationally with a "factory" unlock, just like the 3G is now. iTunes will check to see if it should activate your device with the SIM in question. Apple's server will recognize that your phone is in its "unlocked phone" database, and it will be unlocked using a process protected by enough military grade encryption that we haven't much chance of duplicating it. I have a suspicion that you won't see this iteration of the iPhone on a network other than AT&T without going this route. Prepare to pay about $700 for it, though, and beware that losers on eBay sometimes call it "unlocked" if it has been jailbroken. There are also scammers out there. It's a pretty big investment in time to find reputable exporters, but it can be done. ...or you can live with AT&T, or you can wait until the exclusivity runs out. That's long rumored to be 2010, with AT&T not giving Apple any particularly great incentive for renewal. Joseph On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:28:44PM -0400, Corbb O'Connor wrote: > Clinton, > > The older iPhones were "unlockable" because they had a removable SIM > card. Now, the iPhones (newer 3G and all 3GS models) do not use SIM > cards -- they're like a Verizon phone. The SIM card is embedded. The one > nice thing, though, is that it's absolutely foolish to steal a new > iPhone, just like a Verizon; when the owner finds out, they send a kill > signal and now your phone NEVER works again. > > Corbb > > On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:24 PM, clinton waterbury wrote: > > People have unlocked the older Iphones, why not this new one? > On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: > >> Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone will >> not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. >> >> Dezman From commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net Fri Jun 12 00:38:47 2009 From: commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net (Kevin Wassmer) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:38:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] great news Message-ID: Hello Nabsters. I have sonme great news. I made my first sale for a company I ork for. I ork for Life orks International. It is a company that does Bussniss coaching. I like the person I work for. The owner is great. I will rite to you all later. horus Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 01:23:24 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:23:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] great news References: Message-ID: <72E254220001487C9477A26F960BF5F5@Dezman> Kevin, Congrads. Keep up the good work. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wassmer" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:38 PM Subject: [nabs-l] great news > Hello Nabsters. I have sonme great news. I made my first sale for a > company I ork for. I ork for Life orks International. It is a company that > does Bussniss coaching. I like the person I work for. The owner is great. > I will rite to you all later. > horus > > Cause its been 18 days > Since I first held you > But to me it feels just like > It feels like a lifetime > I'm trying hard to re-arrange > Some say its the hardest thing to do > But that's another 18 days > Without you.. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 12 01:35:57 2009 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Dave Wright) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:35:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Nokia N95 bundled with MobileSpeak ScreenReader on Sale Message-ID: <1FA787F6FF404238A4CDCA037813614D@dwrigh6> Good evening all, Handy Tech North America has 5 new in the box Nokia N95 GSM Symbian phones that we are bundling with Mobile Speak and leather case for only $650.00 for the entire package which is an awesome price. Follow the link below to take advantage of this very short lived online special price and don't hesitate to contact us at: 651-636-5184 or send e-mail to sales at handytech.us should you have any questions whatsoever. http://www.handytech.us/n95.html http://www.ha Best Regards: Dave Wright Work Phone: 651-636-5184 X803 Email: dwrigh6 at gmail.com WebPage: http://www.knfbreader.com From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 01:38:09 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:38:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] great news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kevin Please spell check your posts before you send them. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wassmer" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:38 PM Subject: [nabs-l] great news > Hello Nabsters. I have sonme great news. I made my first sale for a > company I ork for. I ork for Life orks International. It is a company that > does Bussniss coaching. I like the person I work for. The owner is great. > I will rite to you all later. > horus > > Cause its been 18 days > Since I first held you > But to me it feels just like > It feels like a lifetime > I'm trying hard to re-arrange > Some say its the hardest thing to do > But that's another 18 days > Without you.. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Jun 12 01:47:15 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:47:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to travelalone; Burnaby Message-ID: <20090612014715.20887.39924@web3.serotek.com> Beth. It's history lesson time. Back in the late 70's through the early 90's, we fought like hell to assure the rights of the blind in air travel. Our basic fight was over this lovely thing called "safety." From our point of view, "safety" was an arbitrary thing that seemed to have no other rhyme nor reason except to whatever extent an airline official sought to assert their whims. In the case of emergency exits, some airline officials said we should sit in emergency exits because we could then get out faster and not compromise the evacuation process. Others said we shouldn't because we might compromise the evacuation process. We Federationists were in strong belief (and still are) that the blind should sit wherever we are originally assigned unless we have a good reason not to. There came a time when the FAA decided that blind persons sitting in emergency exits wasn't safe because we can't see to opperate them or receive visual instructions from airline staff. We provided tons of reasoned arguments and evidence clearly showing that we are safe emergency exit passengers, but the FAA and Congress didn't see it our way. Consequently, we lost that battle. That is why you now hear directions stating that one must be able to see and hear instructions. I don't know what the history of exit row seating for the deaf came to, but I know that's how ours happened. I don't know if we're ever going to revisit the issue. Perhaps in due course as the public gets a little closer to understanding that blindness need not mean incapacity. Perhaps it'll all just naturally happen as society evolves. Perhaps not. I hope for the day when I'll be able to sit where I'm assigned in an aircraft. I hope that one day, I, like the rest of you, will be seen as capable human beings with something real to contribute. And I'm not just talking about exits, neither. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > That's funny. I wonder why though every video I've watched on every > airline says you need to be able to "see" the exit of an exit row. > But oh well. As long as I don't have o sit away from the exit or in a > bulkhead seat, I guess I'll be fine. > Beth > On 6/11/09, Jedi wrote: >> Monika, >> The benefits to having sighted folks like you in our ranks are >> two-fold. First, you serve as a living example of the relationship >> blind and sighted people can share together: one free of dominance and >> one built in mutual trust and empowerment. Second, you have a unique >> ability to share our message with the sighted community in a way that >> your sighted peers will understand. Thanks for the work you and the >> other sighted folks do with us. We're honored to have you as part of >> our cause. Cheers. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> And that is why I am glad to be a sighted member of the NFB. Even >>> though I knew that a blind person could do anything a sighted person >>> can before I joined, I have learned a lot more about how it can be done >>> since joining. >>> Monika Reinholz >>>> From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:50 -0400 >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >>>> travelalone; Burnaby >>>> Beth, >>>> what your really dealing with is a psychosocial problem rather than a >>>> physical one. The sighted can't imagine how a blind person can safely >>>> opperate an emergency exit row let alone do much anything else because, >>>> in their world view, sight is a basic requirement for function and >>>> leisure. we know differently. sight is a convenience, not a necessary >>>> prerequisite. when a sighted person meets a blind person, their first >>>> thought usually is, "what would I do if I were in that situation? I'd >>>> be afraid and unable to cope!" Most sighted people don't recognize that >>>> they're suffering from a lack of information regarding blindness until >>>> you point it out to them. When they really understand that they need >>>> educating, most are open and willing to engage in the process. Those >>>> who aren't are experiencing good old-fashioned prejudice that spans as >>>> far back as ancient antiquitiy with the help of the blind prophet and >>>> the blind beggar. Sounds simplistic. Mostly, it's not, but that's the >>>> basic run-down of the thing. >>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>> Original message: >>>>> Ok. But most airlines say, "You must be able to "see" the exit." Why >>>>> is this and how can we justify being able to sit in an exit row? >>>>> Beth >>>>> On 6/10/09, Monika Reinholz wrote: >>>>>> Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the >>>>>> others, >>>>>> therefore having more space for someones legs to be comfortable during >>>>>> flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even though Im ony 5'5" >>>>>> because >>>>>> its more comfortable for the legs. I can understand the kid rule they >>>>>> have >>>>>> for the row but I believe everyone knows what they can do best. If a >>>>>> blind >>>>>> person knows s/he can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and >>>>>> let >>>>>> them sit where they are most comfortable. >>>>>> Monika >>>>>> Monika Reinholz >>>>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 >>>>>>> From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to >>>>>>> travelalone; Burnaby >>>>>>> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an emergency >>>>>>> row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in those rows >>>>>>> anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. >>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>> On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: >>>>>>>> Hey all, >>>>>>>> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough to "need" an >>>>>>>> emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the >>>>>>>> airport/airplane. >>>>>>>> BTW, >>>>>>>> I start cane travel training today. >>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>> "From compromise and things half done, >>>>>>>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>>>>>>> And when at last the fight is won, >>>>>>>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 03:48:21 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:48:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question Message-ID: Hi There! I have a friend who is lookiong to switch to AT&T. I've heard there are some phones where you can get Mobile Speak for like 89 dollars. Does anyone know what models these are, and if they'll install MobileSpeak for you, or if you have to do that? Interested how the activation of the mobile speak license works too. Hope someone can help. >From David ***** If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and more! To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at http://www.radio360.us Follow us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa or add us to your MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! From JWilson at nfb.org Fri Jun 12 04:02:38 2009 From: JWilson at nfb.org (Wilson, Joanne) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:02:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Last Chance for Hilton Reservations for Convention Message-ID: ALERT! ALERT! ALERT! ALERT! Hi All, June 12, 2009 is the last day that the Hilton will be holding the National Federation of the Blind block of rooms. After June 12 you will be taking a chance on whether you can get a room FOR National Convention at the Hilton. Joanne Wilson Affiliate Action DA: Here is part of the original announcement from Joanne, announcing these rooms: Joanne Wilson tells us: Rooms are now also available in the Hilton Garden Inn, about seven blocks north of the Renaissance Center, at 351 Gratiot Avenue, Detroit, Michigan 48226. The above convention rates apply, with a nonrefundable deposit of $60.00 at booking and a five-night minimum stay for arrivals beginning Thursday, July 2, and departures no later than Friday, July 10. Please note this means that by making a reservation there you are obligated to pay for the full five nights at convention rates even if you stay fewer than five nights. You may make reservations through Hilton's reservation system at 1-866-534-5356 through Friday, June 12. Be sure to tell the agent you are attending the National Federation of the Blind convention. These rooms will go quickly; therefore, you should call right away to ensure having a reservation. From RWest at nfb.org Fri Jun 12 04:03:24 2009 From: RWest at nfb.org (West, Renee) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:03:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Lend_your_time_to_lend_a_hand=3A_Help_spr?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ead_the_word_about_NFB-NEWSLINE=AE_at_National_Convention!?= Message-ID: Greetings fellow Federationists: As you are surely aware, the NFB national convention is rapidly approaching, and so before everyone’s schedule is entirely packed I wanted to write to you to ask for your assistance. As this is the first convention since launching NFB-NEWSLINE® Online (Web site: www.nfbnewslineonline.org), we wanted to seize this occasion to afford convention attendees with an opportunity to become familiar with our new features, including Web News on Demand and NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket. To aid us in this effort, in addition to our two tables at the exhibit hall, the NFB-NEWSLINE® team has arranged for a suite (accommodating up to 25 people) that will allow for hands-on demonstrations of our newest online initiatives. This great effort to promote the service to convention attendees means that we are in great need of a great many pair of hands to help us out! Our suite will be available for 28 hours of walk-in traffic and our tables in the exhibit hall will need to be staffed for 23 hours--that’s a total of 51 hours! We are looking for support from our members who are familiar with the NFB-NEWSLINE® service; our volunteers will be asked to assist visitors in many ways; by providing information, handing out literature and helping sign up new subscribers, and demonstrating the service’s features. I would very much appreciate it if you would take some time during the convention to assist us in promoting and demonstrating the service to convention attendees. Please also ask others in your affiliate who you know use NFB-NEWSLINE® to volunteer their time as well In return, you'll provide a valuable service and receive prodigious thanks! Please send me an e-mail indicating your interest in volunteering during convention. My e-mail address is rwest at nfb.org and my inbox can accept a lot of entries! If you have questions, you may also reach me by phone at (410) 659-9314, extension 2411. Thank you for your time and for your attention to this matter. Renee West, Marketing and Outreach Manager NFB-NEWSLINE® Renee West Manager, Marketing and Outreach Sponsored Technology Programs NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore MD 21230 Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2411 Fax: (410) 659-5129 Websites: www.nfb.org www.nfbnewsline.org www.nfbnewslineonline.org From MRiccobono at nfb.org Fri Jun 12 04:07:05 2009 From: MRiccobono at nfb.org (Riccobono, Mark) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:07:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Opportunity to Participate in Research at NFB Convention Message-ID: Dear Federationists, A researcher planning to attend the NFB Convention in Detroit has asked us to distribute the following fo ryour consideration Thanks, Mark A. Riccobono Executive Director, Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND Opportunity to Participate in Research! Shannon B. Rinaldo, Ph.D. from Texas Tech University is seeking visually impaired adults ages 18-65 (older persons may also be considered) to participate in a research study while attending the National Federation of the Blind National Convention in Detroit July 3-8, 2009. Scheduled sessions will be set as to not interfere with the general sessions of the conference. The study involves listening to or reading Braille advertisements and completing questionnaires. Braille readers are preferred but the study may be able to incorporate non-Braille readers. Participants will be paid $20 for one hour or less of their time. The study requires approximately 70 participants. Contact Shannon Rinaldo via phone (859) 492-4939; email Shannon.rinaldo at ttu.edu; or contact her room at the Marriott Renaissance Center during the conference. Participants will be scheduled prior to the conference, so please contact the researcher as soon as you decide you are interested! From andrewjedg at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 04:11:23 2009 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew Edgcumbe) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:11:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] about the blind learning guitar Message-ID: Hi all It is Andrew. I am from Canada. I just had a question for you all. I have been trying to learn guitar. I have been trying to figure out the best way of or method for teaching myself and how you the blind community has learned the guitar. That is if there is any guitar players on this list. If you do play guitar please email me privately and i can tell you why I am asking in more detail of what is going on with me and the guitar and the difficaulty. From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 07:15:06 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:15:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Message-ID: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the sunglasses on,  I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now.  Oh, by the way, large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was safe). I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 12 07:56:50 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Grant proposal Message-ID: <964539.3669.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Joe, Do you know of any grants that would fund  trial runs for a disability shuttle buess to the Biolife Plasma Centers? I have two such centers in Montana. I bet I could use such a project to satisfy my Applied Research Project (AKA thesis) for my Public Administration degree. Even though I would be working with, or on behalf of Biolife, which is a private company, this issues of disability access, and public transportation are extreamly relevant to public administration and government. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From jdraichle at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 13:33:28 2009 From: jdraichle at gmail.com (Jessica Raichle) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:33:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question References: Message-ID: <09ED676164584F0B9D62D99A5E43C082@D6RYFF31> Hi, David: AT&T offered the Pantek Duo (not sure if I spelled that right), the Nokia 6650 and one other phone I can't remember right now with MobileSpeak for the lower price. If you look on their website they can tell you. And, yes, they can install it for you if you send it to their disabilities center. You can also call them to find out the phones. 866-241-6568 Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Dunphy" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:48 PM Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question > Hi There! > I have a friend who is lookiong to switch to AT&T. I've heard there are > some phones where you can get Mobile Speak for like 89 dollars. > Does anyone know what models these are, and if they'll install MobileSpeak > for you, or if you have to do that? Interested how the activation of the > mobile speak license works too. > Hope someone can help. >>From David > > ***** > If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, > and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the > station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called > Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able > to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and > more! > To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at > http://www.radio360.us > Follow us on twitter at > http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa > or add us to your MySpace at > http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa > Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jdraichle%40gmail.com From guitargirl89 at windstream.net Fri Jun 12 15:21:11 2009 From: guitargirl89 at windstream.net (stacy timberlake) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:21:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] about the blind learning guitar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ACE3AA877B749BA917EE6EB9A99267E@StacyPC> Hey Andrew, My name is Stacy and I have played the guitar for about 5 years now. What are the questions that you have? There are a ton of blind guitarists so your vision is not a big issue. Depending on what type of music you are wanting to play and the kind of money that you are wanting to invest there is even a C.D. series called talking tabs that will walk you through from the basics up--I play by ear so it isn't for me but I know a lot of people who love it. Good luck! Stacy --- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Edgcumbe" To: "nabs-l" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:11 AM Subject: [nabs-l] about the blind learning guitar > Hi all > > It is Andrew. > > I am from Canada. > > I just had a question for you all. > > I have been trying to learn guitar. > I have been trying to figure out the best way of or method for > teaching myself and how you the blind community has learned the > guitar. That is if there is any guitar players on this list. > > If you do play guitar please email me privately and i can tell you why > I am asking in more detail of what is going on with me and the guitar > and the difficaulty. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/guitargirl89%40windstream.net From guitargirl89 at windstream.net Fri Jun 12 15:54:36 2009 From: guitargirl89 at windstream.net (stacy timberlake) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:54:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 In-Reply-To: <00F0D460787B4A0E929814CE2747A070@Ashley> References: <20090610095053.3955.81600@web1.serotek.com> <00F0D460787B4A0E929814CE2747A070@Ashley> Message-ID: <76F950633C3243DBB8FD789DBBC1F395@StacyPC> Hey Jim, I started using a cane about 4 years ago--but I have been lucky enough to have a lot of O&M training so it is one of my strengths. Here are a few tips. As for orientation--use landmarks whenever possible, and keep in mind that even something like the slope of the ground is a land mark. For the hot spots and wrist pain-- This is where you need someone who can give direction. I use an aluminum cane with a rolling tip everywhere I go, but I honestly have never noticed it to be "heavy" in comparison to the NFB canes (which I have also tried) I use constant contact sweeping in an arch (sweeping the cane opposite of the foot that I am stepping with) But the way that you hold the aluminum canes is TOTALLY different than the way that you hold the NFB canes. If you have the cane that I think that you do there is a flat side to the handle you should point your first finger down that and wrap your hand around the rest. Good luck, Stacy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:15 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 > Hi Jim, > I'm glad you had a positive experience with the cane. > A folding aluminum cane with a roller tip is a good quality cane. But its > disadvantage is the heaviness. I used to have a folding aluminum cane. > I'm not sure its a good idea to teach yourself O&M since you may develop > improper habits that will be hard to correct. Still I understand your > desire to learn. > Its great you felt more confident and safe with it at night when your > vision cannot work for you. I have some vision too. Acuity is actually > good but my field is so limited rendering my vision not sufficient for > travel. I just see straight ahead. So the cane makes me more confident > to detect curbs and side objects out of my field of vision. Its too bad > the O&M instructor didn't teach you how to use it. Unfortunately that's > typical of instructors that visit clients at home. They first talk to you > to evaluate the situation. They should have discussed your goals for O&M. > Because they have high caseloads the lessons are infrequent and I hope you > get a lesson before the end of June. > > My advice is slightly different than others as I think there's many > options out there. I'm not a strong Federationist. > I suggest you get a lighter cane that's taller as everyone else said. The > one you have is free, but if you can afford one there's several choices. > You might be able to ask your O&M instructor to bring different canes to > sample. > Ambutech makes graphite canes I think. If not other companies do. I > have a folding cane made of graphite inside and its half the weight of the > aluminum! > No wonder your wrist hurts from constantly picking it up! You can also > try the NFB fiber glass canes but there's several cane companies out there > that may also meet your needs. I think your cane should come up to your > chin. You need a longer cane for adaquate warning. > In order not to get blisters or "hot spots" > maybe you were gripping the cane too tightly. I also think alternating > hands is a good idea to give one hand a rest for long walks like you did. > > I have used a cane since I was eight. Professionals realized my vision > wasn't adaquate to travel. > Mobility instruction in school is inadaquate since they have too many > students to see but that's another story. I haven't had too much > opportunity for independent travel and don't have a good sense of > direction. Its not a strength. Still I did the basics of traveling alone > around college campus and went some places alone such as the mall to shop > and eat during college. I say this for background. Still here's my > answers for what its worth. Traveling is an individual thing and what > works for one doesn't work for another. > Here it goes. I answer after your question. > > How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? > If you slide your cane in an arc it should detect curbs. Its called > constant contact. Most federationists use the tapping method called two > point touch. Personally I like constant interaction with the ground and > find it gives me more info. To keep track of what street you're on, > there's a number of ways. In your case you can read the names and > remember for later on when you can't see. People without enough vision to > see them ask. > You can ask about street names and remember the layout. If there's > numbered streets they likely will go up or down in number. You can listen > to traffic to tell major streets from side streets. You can count blocks. > Mostly its memory. > > How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? > You just think about it, what you're doing and make sure you have good > technique. Later on it will be natural and you don't have to think about > the mechanics of cane travel. > If my mind wanders what helps me is I ask myself questions about the > environment. I have to focus since otherwise I easily get lost! Actually > in familiar environments I can drift off a bit since its so ingrained from > routine I don't have to think. But usually not. > > Since I still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out > street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do > I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to > find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those main roads? > > You could use your vision to check. But try developing trust and > alternative methods of figuring it out. Maybe there's landmarks by major > streets. > I think its fine to find out where you are when you hit the main road. As > long as you're traveling in the right direction, knowing every little > street isn't neccessary. > > Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? > > No. You won't have wrist pain with a change in cane weight. Until then > maybe shorter walks with the cane is good. Part of it is conditioning in > that your muscles are not used to this work. Maybe build up to those long > walks. so I think a combo of conditioning and trying lighter canes will > help. > > What is the absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? > Many cane matterials are strong and > light weight. Graphite canes are strong and durable. Rainshine canes are > strong too and looked pretty durable when I saw them. > > I was walking at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the > day, is it reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast > or should I take it down a notch? > You may want to slow down while you learn and get used to the cane. But > in general you can > walk as fast as you normally do. I just think as a beginner you can get > more feedback and react to the tactile feedback from the cane if you slow > down. > > Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I really > wait for the O/M instructor? > > I'd say either wait or at least ask someone whose used a cane for > guidance. > > Ashley > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:50 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 > > > Jim, > > Here are some suggestions to help you in the future. These may also be > useful to others, so I post them here. > > First, regarding cane length. Yes, you will want a longer cane to fully > cover the length of your stride. The longer cane will also make it > easier to detect those down curbs you mentioned at a reasonable clip. > > Let's briefly talk about cane composition. Length gives you the > advantage of stopping distance and maneuverability. What I'm about to > suggest is controversial for a lot of reasons, but the collective > experience of many expert cane travelers suggests that you may want to > consider a lighter cane, especially one that is fiberglass or carbon > fiber. I would also recommend according to that same collective > experience, that you don't use a folding cane because the elastic > places a barrier between you and the sensations you could be getting. > Folding canes are great, but not if you want maximum sensativity. As an > option, consider a telescoping cane for collapsability. But for long > walks on rugged terrain, consider a straight cane (one that doesn't > collapse) and a collapsing one when you're mostly going to travel by > plane, car, be indoors, etc. If echolocation is useful to you, you may > consider a metal tip for maximum sound as an echolocator. But if > echolocation isn't useful because of your hearing loss, still consider > the metal tip as it's also quite sensitive and much lighter than the > roller tip which means that you exert less effort lifting the cane to > make an arc, thus saving your wrist and preventing blistering. Also, to > prevent blistering, consider a smooth plastic handle rather than a > grippy leather one. In short, think about getting an NfB cane as we > tend to make them long, light, and with a center of gravity that's > closer to the top of the cane itself rather than the bottom. > > Now, as to orientation. That's another matter entirely. your instructor > may not know how to orient in practice because she is a sighted person > who doesn't use the knowledge on a regular basis and probably doesn't > really believe that blind people can really travel anyway. This isn't > true for all sighted instructors. the best sighted instructors are > those who spent a lot of time under blindfold in the company of blind > people, learning what the blind do through practice and guided > mentoring from good blind travelers. Most sighted instructors get > limited practice under blindfold and only see blind travelers on their > lessons, so their knowledge tends to be more theoretical than > practical. There isn't much you can do about that except to hang around > blind people who are good at cane travel and who can really offer you > practical suggestions on how to orient. Your teacher may be able to > offer some help, but you will have to be the one to provide practical > experience on your own unless you've actually observed your instructor > actually get around with a blindfold. Knowing basic orientation skills > (using non-visual information to discover your location) will negate > the need for a flashlight. The more practiced you become, the more you > can daydream on a midnight walk. > > Much of what I tell you comes from collective experience and from my > own educational background both in cane travel and in blindness > studies. Nonetheless, it's fantastic that the cane skills you have, and > the cane itself, gave you a measure of confidence even at the beginning > stages of your cane travel journey. Just imagine how confident and how > fluid you will become when you get to a level of true experience! > you'll be movin' and groovin' before you know it! > > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> Hey all, > >> I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst O/M >> instructor ever, me! You see, the VR O/M instructor came to my house >> today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. She told me >> I might be able to get one lesson before the end of June. And she also >> told me not to use the cane until I had a training session. I'm sorry, >> but you dont give me a new tool or toy and tell me not to uae or play >> with it. Of course I took the cane for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech >> folding aluminum cane, with a roller tip. To test for length, I did the >> test suggested by the author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White >> Cane": I took my cane, swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed >> I normally would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to >> stop as soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. >> Apparantly, if the cane is the right length, you should be able to take >> two full steps after your cane detects >> an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. I >> was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane >> recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or >> patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. > >> My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I have >> long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining the "step left- swing >> right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my wrist got >> tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less effective. >> Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know from plenty of >> hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters very quickly. > >> I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back; some blocks had minimal >> street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh blind). I felt >> confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the cane travel was easy >> (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on the sidewaljk). The travel >> may have been a bit too easy, as I allowed my cane to lead the way and my >> thoughts to follow and wander (much as thoughts should wander on a >> pointless midnight walk). Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block >> I was on, however I brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily >> figure out where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on >> curbs that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch >> drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb was >> there. > >> Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride out", >> and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the cane knocked >> off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to feel more safe and >> confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact that I dislike walking as >> a form of travel, I intend >> to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk >> enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my >> skills. > >> I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident >> "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost confidence >> when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost confidence when I >> was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty enough, I instinctivly >> found myself following my cane: if my cane dropped off the edge of the >> curb and rode along the street for a while, I found myself angling >> towards the street, even though I knew I did not want to go that way, and >> I knew there was a rolled ankle in my future if I continued that way. > >> Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near >> broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain link >> fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. Fortunatly, the >> tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and apparantly the fence >> provided enough pressure on the joint to remove the tip from its normal >> position. The internal cord held, and the tip retuned to its normal >> position, but I have the feeling that I may need something as strong as >> an aluminum cane. > >> Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive experience, >> and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was really nice to be able >> to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. Do they make a quiet cane? >> To me, it does not seem to me like the cane provides any auditory >> feedback that can't also be detected via touch, and I'd like to be able >> to hear myself think. > >> A couple of questions: >> How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? How do >> I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I still have >> vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out street signs? If I >> know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and 15th, do I really need to >> know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or is it ok to find out exactly >> where I am once I hit one of those main roads? Is the wrist pain >> unavoidle until I become conditioned to using a cane? What is the >> absolute strongest cane material for the lightest weight? I was walking >> at max speed, I was walking as fast as I walk during the day, is it >> reasonable and safe for me to expect myself to walk that fast or should I >> take it down a notch? Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane >> travel, or should I really wait for the O/M instructor? > >> Thanks, >> Jim > >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4145 (20090610) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/guitargirl89%40windstream.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 12 15:56:46 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 11:56:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9C7C1F549C894BFA9AD8FA2694DE81A6@Ashley> Hi Jim, I totally agree! As I said before mobility wasn't a strength. What I meant was really that orientation wasn't a strength. I don't have a good sense of direction and don't form mental maps. Mobility is the easier part. But orientation is harder to master. Its made with the sighted in mind with signs and other visual cues. Still it can be done. Use your cane to feel what's around you and pay attention to what you're hearing. In a neighborhood there's not much traffic, especially at night so if that's where you're walking it might not provide much sound cues. Try to find tactile landmarks near your home. Is there something distinct like a hill or fence? I agree that large parking lots are a pain. I haven't found a solution for them either. Wheel chair accessible curbs are challenging as you said because its flat and harder to tell you're in the street. A clue for me was hearing cars if they're there. Also, as you use the cane more, you may be able to feel the difference in the cane. Streets are black asfault where as sidewalks are concrete of a different matterial. So the street feels different. Its hard to describe, but there's a slight difference. Sometimes I notice it, others I don't. I'm like you in that I use my vision in the day time but cannot at night. But I have less vision so I combine visual info with my cane and other senses. I found that when walking at night, I used my memory of the layout to stay oriented and nonvisual cues. For instance my campus was hilly. So the slope of the sidewalk in some areas was a good clue. There were benches by some buildings and outdoor tables by the student union. These were landmarks I could use with or with out vision. I'm glad it worked out for me since lots of activities occurred at night. I trusted my cane and went on my way. I think its great you're trying hard. Don't tell your new O and M instructor though. She may not like that. Hopefully when you do get a lesson it will be beneficial. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 AM Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Hey all, The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was safe). I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4150 (20090612) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From fowlers at syix.com Fri Jun 12 16:06:26 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:06:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab> Jim, Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the hang of it you will find it a big help. A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that landmark. If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more comfortable you will be with it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Hey all, The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the sunglasses on,  I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now.  Oh, by the way, large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was safe). I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Jun 12 17:47:22 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 13:47:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jim, For orientation, a few more comments on landmarks. Something like the slope of the ground is a landmark. With practice you might feel the difference in texture from concrete to asphalt to indicate its a street. Landmarks can also be objects like poles or mail boxes. Scents help too. Maybe there's the smell of certain flowers near your home. Everyone suggests compass directions. You can try that. But that didn't help me too much unless I was walking east or west during the daytime on a sunny day. Cardinal directions were just hard to understand. After high school I had an O M instructor come to my house to pick me up and practice mobility and get oriented to campus prior to the semester begginning. After all in school I wanted to focus on academics not orientation. Anyway, she talked about compass directions. She also talked about landmarks and listening to traffic for orientation. She was not in NFB using structured discovery officially but she was excellent I thought. I just say this to show that a non NFB instructor can have positive attitudes and use concepts similar to those NFB instructors have. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 AM Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Hey all, The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was safe). I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4150 (20090612) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 20:17:05 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 06:17:05 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim and all, If you drag your cane along the ground rather than tapping it (also known as "constant contact") it's a bit easier to feel the contrast between concrete and asphalt. It's also much easier to detect this contrast with an NFB fiberglass or carbon fiber cane (and a rigid cane will give you maximum sensitivity). At the NFB training centers, they teach you how to walk safely in the gutter between the curb and street by following the curb with your cane ("shorelining") and making sure not to get more than a step or so away from the curb. Many streets also have a "crown" or a ridge between the gutter and street that your cane will stick on. Once you cross the crown, you're in trouble, but as long as you stay on the curb site of the crown, you're safe. Making sure you can feel the curb with your cane with each step will prevent you from wandering to the opposite side of the street (which, believe me, I made that mistake more than once in Louisiana!) As for landmarks, as others have mentioned, anything you can hear, smell or feel with your cane is a landmark—inclines, texture changes like cobblestones on the sidewalk, echo changes (going from a covered to an open area or vice versa), loud air conditioners, construction, fountains, etc. are all helpful as long as they’re consistently in the same place. If nothing else, you can always count driveways or sidewalks between, say, your house and the closest street corner. My boyfriend’s apartment building isn’t really distinctive from the others at all, but I always knew how to find it once I discovered that it was the second sidewalk after the fourth driveway I crossed once I turn on his street—and the sidewalk slopes up, so if I space out and turn in at the first one instead, I’ll know right away that I’m on the wrong track. If you have a busy street that intersects the street you live on, use that as a landmark—if you were walking toward it at the beginning of your trip, you should be walking away from it on your way back, etc. Best of luck and keep exploring! Arielle On 6/13/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Jim, > For orientation, a few more comments on landmarks. > Something like the slope of the ground is a landmark. > With practice you might feel the difference in texture from concrete to > asphalt to indicate its a street. > Landmarks can also be objects like poles or mail boxes. > Scents help too. Maybe there's the smell of certain flowers near your home. > Everyone suggests compass directions. You can try that. But that didn't > help me too much unless I was walking east or west during the daytime on a > sunny day. > Cardinal directions were just hard to understand. > After high school I had an O M instructor come to my house to pick me up and > practice mobility and get oriented to campus prior to the semester > begginning. After all in school I wanted to focus on academics not > orientation. Anyway, she talked about compass directions. She also talked > about landmarks and listening to traffic for orientation. She was not in > NFB using structured discovery officially but she was excellent I thought. > I just say this to show that a non NFB instructor can have positive > attitudes and use concepts similar to those NFB instructors have. > > Ashley > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Reed" > To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > > > Hey all, > The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard > to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more > challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at > night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the > sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two > blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my > way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. > I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when > I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the > gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, large parking lots are a > pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. > and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street > without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other > side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was > safe). > > I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make > you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 4150 (20090612) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 20:20:54 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 06:20:54 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS Message-ID: Hi all, I was just wondering whether anyone has had experience using the statistical package "R" with JAWS? Some of our stat labs here are switching from SPSS to R and so many of our students are being expected to learn it. I would like to learn it in order to be able to teach/tutor for stats courses here. Since R is a fully command-driven program, it seems like it should be fully accessible, but when I tried playing with it I couldn't tell whether or not I had received an error message after entering a line of code. I am not sure whether this is a universal problem or if I just wasn't using the right navigation commands to interact with the program. Any suggestions or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Arielle From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 21:39:46 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:39:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090612213946.GC11922@yumi.bluecherry.net> Arielle, R programs (for that is what they are) can be written in Notepad or any other text editor. I do not know what the Windows GUI is like, but R itself is a UNIX-type program that runs in a terminal window. I never found the Windows Command Prompt to be all that efficient with JAWS (in fact I hated using it!) If the graphical interface isn't very good in terms of accessibility, it should be easy to fix. Joseph On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 06:20:54AM +1000, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Hi all, > >I was just wondering whether anyone has had experience using the >statistical package "R" with JAWS? Some of our stat labs here are >switching from SPSS to R and so many of our students are being >expected to learn it. I would like to learn it in order to be able to >teach/tutor for stats courses here. Since R is a fully command-driven >program, it seems like it should be fully accessible, but when I tried >playing with it I couldn't tell whether or not I had received an error >message after entering a line of code. I am not sure whether this is a >universal problem or if I just wasn't using the right navigation >commands to interact with the program. Any suggestions or experiences >would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks! >Arielle > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 22:24:53 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:24:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS In-Reply-To: <20090612213946.GC11922@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <20090612213946.GC11922@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <2FEE555978F34CA5ADF9E86A9DB24B60@sacomputer> Hmm I can navagate fine in a cmd prompt but that's just me and Iom kind of a geek anyways. Ok, I admit it! Lol! The trick is using your jaws curser a lot. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: blindmath at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS Arielle, R programs (for that is what they are) can be written in Notepad or any other text editor. I do not know what the Windows GUI is like, but R itself is a UNIX-type program that runs in a terminal window. I never found the Windows Command Prompt to be all that efficient with JAWS (in fact I hated using it!) If the graphical interface isn't very good in terms of accessibility, it should be easy to fix. Joseph On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 06:20:54AM +1000, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Hi all, > >I was just wondering whether anyone has had experience using the >statistical package "R" with JAWS? Some of our stat labs here are >switching from SPSS to R and so many of our students are being expected >to learn it. I would like to learn it in order to be able to >teach/tutor for stats courses here. Since R is a fully command-driven >program, it seems like it should be fully accessible, but when I tried >playing with it I couldn't tell whether or not I had received an error >message after entering a line of code. I am not sure whether this is a >universal problem or if I just wasn't using the right navigation >commands to interact with the program. Any suggestions or experiences >would be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks! >Arielle > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 22:25:12 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:25:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2943BDBA874740C290A7E8C806C5DCF0@sacomputer> Is it a cmd prompt you have to deal with? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 1:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; blindmath at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS Hi all, I was just wondering whether anyone has had experience using the statistical package "R" with JAWS? Some of our stat labs here are switching from SPSS to R and so many of our students are being expected to learn it. I would like to learn it in order to be able to teach/tutor for stats courses here. Since R is a fully command-driven program, it seems like it should be fully accessible, but when I tried playing with it I couldn't tell whether or not I had received an error message after entering a line of code. I am not sure whether this is a universal problem or if I just wasn't using the right navigation commands to interact with the program. Any suggestions or experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 22:25:38 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:25:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: <51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab> References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab> Message-ID: <914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer> I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. The thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that were not moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far away. I wandered in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to the center. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Angela fowler Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Jim, Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the hang of it you will find it a big help. A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that landmark. If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more comfortable you will be with it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Hey all, The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the sunglasses on,  I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now.  Oh, by the way, large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was safe). I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 22:25:38 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:25:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's rightto travelalone; Burnaby In-Reply-To: References: <20090611022950.15077.55567@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: And I'm still learning even though I graduated from the lcb not to long ago. I am constantly learning how and what can be done. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Monika Reinholz Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:41 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's rightto travelalone; Burnaby And that is why I am glad to be a sighted member of the NFB. Even though I knew that a blind person could do anything a sighted person can before I joined, I have learned a lot more about how it can be done since joining. Monika Reinholz > From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:50 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's right to > travelalone; Burnaby > > Beth, > > what your really dealing with is a psychosocial problem rather than a > physical one. The sighted can't imagine how a blind person can safely > opperate an emergency exit row let alone do much anything else > because, in their world view, sight is a basic requirement for > function and leisure. we know differently. sight is a convenience, not > a necessary prerequisite. when a sighted person meets a blind person, > their first thought usually is, "what would I do if I were in that > situation? I'd be afraid and unable to cope!" Most sighted people > don't recognize that they're suffering from a lack of information > regarding blindness until you point it out to them. When they really > understand that they need educating, most are open and willing to > engage in the process. Those who aren't are experiencing good > old-fashioned prejudice that spans as far back as ancient antiquitiy > with the help of the blind prophet and the blind beggar. Sounds > simplistic. Mostly, it's not, but that's the basic run-down of the thing. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: > > Ok. But most airlines say, "You must be able to "see" the exit." Why > > is this and how can we justify being able to sit in an exit row? > > Beth > > > On 6/10/09, Monika Reinholz wrote: > > >> Actually, Jim's not wierd. Emergency exit rows are bigger than the > >> others, therefore having more space for someones legs to be > >> comfortable during flight. Even I prefer emergency exit rows even > >> though Im ony 5'5" because its more comfortable for the legs. I can > >> understand the kid rule they have for the row but I believe > >> everyone knows what they can do best. If a blind person knows s/he > >> can handle being in an emergency row, so be it and let them sit where they are most comfortable. > > >> Monika > > >> Monika Reinholz > > > > >>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:13:08 -0400 > >>> From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com > >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Air Canada challenges deaf, blind man's > >>> right to travelalone; Burnaby > > >>> T's weird. What does height have to do with sitting in an > >>> emergency row? It would be better for a blind person not to sit in > >>> those rows anyhow because people ned to be directed from the aircraft visually. > >>> Beth > > >>> On 6/9/09, Jim Reed wrote: > >>>> Hey all, > > >>>> Another air travel related issue I just learned of is that blind > >>>> people are not allowed to sit in emergency rows. I am tall enough > >>>> to "need" an emergency row, so I guess I will hide my cane in the > >>>> airport/airplane. > >>>> BTW, > >>>> I start cane travel training today. > > >>>> Jim > > >>>> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and > >>>> stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me > >>>> still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>> for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi > >>>> sloose%40gmail.com > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r > >>> %40hotmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisl > >> oose%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjed > > i%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40h > otmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 22:25:38 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:25:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9FEDB1273F954718BB2E90FCBB3D2667@sacomputer> Oh lol. Yeah I've made that mistake too, especially when going to down to tech drive. Those cars sound about 2 inches away from your foot. I also use the tap slide methid to indicate what's gong on, or I will once I get my ballence back in order. I use a conbonation of both tap slide and the constant contact. Good luck in your cane travel. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 1:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Hi Jim and all, If you drag your cane along the ground rather than tapping it (also known as "constant contact") it's a bit easier to feel the contrast between concrete and asphalt. It's also much easier to detect this contrast with an NFB fiberglass or carbon fiber cane (and a rigid cane will give you maximum sensitivity). At the NFB training centers, they teach you how to walk safely in the gutter between the curb and street by following the curb with your cane ("shorelining") and making sure not to get more than a step or so away from the curb. Many streets also have a "crown" or a ridge between the gutter and street that your cane will stick on. Once you cross the crown, you're in trouble, but as long as you stay on the curb site of the crown, you're safe. Making sure you can feel the curb with your cane with each step will prevent you from wandering to the opposite side of the street (which, believe me, I made that mistake more than once in Louisiana!) As for landmarks, as others have mentioned, anything you can hear, smell or feel with your cane is a landmark-inclines, texture changes like cobblestones on the sidewalk, echo changes (going from a covered to an open area or vice versa), loud air conditioners, construction, fountains, etc. are all helpful as long as they're consistently in the same place. If nothing else, you can always count driveways or sidewalks between, say, your house and the closest street corner. My boyfriend's apartment building isn't really distinctive from the others at all, but I always knew how to find it once I discovered that it was the second sidewalk after the fourth driveway I crossed once I turn on his street-and the sidewalk slopes up, so if I space out and turn in at the first one instead, I'll know right away that I'm on the wrong track. If you have a busy street that intersects the street you live on, use that as a landmark-if you were walking toward it at the beginning of your trip, you should be walking away from it on your way back, etc. Best of luck and keep exploring! Arielle On 6/13/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Jim, > For orientation, a few more comments on landmarks. > Something like the slope of the ground is a landmark. > With practice you might feel the difference in texture from concrete > to asphalt to indicate its a street. > Landmarks can also be objects like poles or mail boxes. > Scents help too. Maybe there's the smell of certain flowers near your home. > Everyone suggests compass directions. You can try that. But that > didn't help me too much unless I was walking east or west during the > daytime on a sunny day. > Cardinal directions were just hard to understand. > After high school I had an O M instructor come to my house to pick me > up and practice mobility and get oriented to campus prior to the > semester begginning. After all in school I wanted to focus on > academics not orientation. Anyway, she talked about compass > directions. She also talked about landmarks and listening to traffic > for orientation. She was not in NFB using structured discovery officially but she was excellent I thought. > I just say this to show that a non NFB instructor can have positive > attitudes and use concepts similar to those NFB instructors have. > > Ashley > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Reed" > To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" > > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > > > Hey all, > The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to > be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it > more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to > sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the > basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then > overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my > sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. > I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my > mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I > hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, > large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. > and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the > street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb > on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic > at midnight, I was safe). > > I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane > make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn > pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still > unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40 > earthlink.net > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4150 (20090612) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm > ail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Fri Jun 12 22:44:55 2009 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:44:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1789423225.3744521244846695277.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> dear david, i too also have at&t and i have been told at their stores is there are phones thAat use the mobile speak software. like someone said which this is true you can purchase them online or there a few but, not too many that you can purchase at their stores. for the exact list go to their web site at www.at&t.com and, there is a list of the phones that use the mobile speak software on their phones. i too haven't found a phone yet that uses mobile speak software and, when your friend finds one they will need to send the phone to the disability services department to have it put into their phone. so, that's information about this. i hope that your friend can find a phone that they like and it serves their purpose. hugs always, from amy ----- Original Message ----- From: David Dunphy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:48:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question Hi There! I have a friend who is lookiong to switch to AT&T. I've heard there are some phones where you can get Mobile Speak for like 89 dollars. Does anyone know what models these are, and if they'll install MobileSpeak for you, or if you have to do that? Interested how the activation of the mobile speak license works too. Hope someone can help. >From David ***** If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and more! To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at http://www.radio360.us Follow us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa or add us to your MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com Fri Jun 12 23:10:15 2009 From: jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com (Jessica Kostiw) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:10:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment References: Message-ID: <004c01c9ebb2$f35eeb80$9151a962@Jessica> Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread. I've been really busy and am just now getting to my E mail. I have a question. Does anyone know if NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise equipment? It seems to me they would make a killing! I don't know about you, but I would pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or elliptical. Thoughts? Jessica Kostiw ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: [nabs-l] access to appliances > Hi all, > > Now a days it seems like more flat pannels out there! Many students live > at home when not studying at college in the dorms. For those of you in > your own places, a question. > > How have you made your appliances accessible? All appliances are flat: > microwaves, stoves, and ovens. Dishwashers too. These flat touch screens > can be labeled so we can use them. Stoves are another problem though. > I know there are talking microwaves. Are there other talking appliances? > It would be neat to have a talking dishwasher so it could call out to you > when your dishes were done! > > Do you have stoves you can feel the burners? Most stoves now have flat > tops! I was at Sears and another store and saw this. I don't think a > flat stove would be real safe. I have one at home here and use my vision > for it. Its harder to center the pots. When I could touch the burners I > touched them before turning on the stove. I centered the pot and then > turned the stove on. My point being flat stoves are not as accessible! > When they started making flat stoves with flat burners they didn't think > of low vision. > I have tunnel vision. The burners are not even a different color making > it hard to see! You can only see it after the stove is turned on and the > burner turns a redish color from the heat. > > Are there companies that have more accessible appliances than others? If > so, which ones? Any out there making the old type of stove where the > burners were raised? > Just wondering what's out there. If this is a problem, NFB should > advocate for accessibility. > > Ashley > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4102 (20090525) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com From hope.paulos at maine.edu Sat Jun 13 01:25:17 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:25:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question References: <1789423225.3744521244846695277.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <0313E6E79AEF4FBE9A24324149460BC5@Hope> Hey David! I have a samsung blackjack model with mobile speak smartphone. I installed mobile speak myself and it was relatively easy to do so. I contacted the disability services department and paid them the $89 . I think they ordered the license for me and I activated it online if I remember correctly. The good thing aboutinstalling it yourself is that you don't have to wait a long time to get the phone up and running for you. It takes a while for the disability services department to install the software and return the phone back to you. Hope this helps! Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 6:44 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cell phone question > dear david, > > i too also have at&t and i have been told at their stores is there are > phones thAat use the mobile speak software. like someone said which this > is true you can purchase them online or there a few but, not too many that > you can purchase at their stores. for the exact list go to their web site > at www.at&t.com and, there is a list of the phones that use the mobile > speak software on their phones. > > i too haven't found a phone yet that uses mobile speak software and, when > your friend finds one they will need to send the phone to the disability > services department to have it put into their phone. so, that's > information about this. i hope that your friend can find a phone that they > like and it serves their purpose. > > > hugs always, > from amy > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: David Dunphy > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Sent: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:48:21 +0000 (UTC) > > Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question > > > > Hi There! > > I have a friend who is lookiong to switch to AT&T. I've heard there are > some phones where you can get Mobile Speak for like 89 dollars. > > Does anyone know what models these are, and if they'll install MobileSpeak > for you, or if you have to do that? Interested how the activation of the > mobile speak license works too. > > Hope someone can help. > >>From David > > > > ***** > > If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, > and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the > station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called > Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able > to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and > more! > > To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at > > http://www.radio360.us > > Follow us on twitter at > > http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa > > or add us to your MySpace at > > http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa > > Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine.edu From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 13 01:28:44 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:28:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment References: <004c01c9ebb2$f35eeb80$9151a962@Jessica> Message-ID: Jessica, I second that! I'd pay extra for an accessible treadmill or eliptical. They make so many talking devices including ones for health like talking thermometers and scales. So why hasn't someone come up with a talking piece of cardio equipment? I wrote a while back about accessible appliances. The same goes for workout equipment. Just substitute appliance for cardio equipment and you have the same problem. Flat screens are prevalent in fitness equipment. The flat display allows you to program a workout with hills or varied resistance. It also provides you with great information about your workout including speed, distance, and estimated calories burned. Such information is inaccessible. Well, I have enough vision to read the screen and do so. But for some that's not an option. You can label the screenwith dimo tape or something for now so at least you can start and stop it independently. But still the display is not accessible. To answer your question, NFB is working on this I think. Call the national office and ask someone in the legislative department to be sure. NFB has proposed a technology bill of Rights. I know little about it other than it will mandate that new technology includes some non visual access. This probably includes those flat screens on fitness equipment. You might want to bring this concern to Lisa Maria the sports and rec president and the NFB national office. BTW, for now some equipment is more tactile than others. I heard through the sports and rec list. Nordic Track has a treadmill with tactile switches. Also Precor is pretty tactile. I used a Precor eliptical at the gym and the arrows for crossramp and resistance are tactile. The start button feels different too. HTH, Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jessica Kostiw" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment > Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread. I've been really busy and > am just now getting to my E mail. I have a question. Does anyone know if > NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise equipment? It > seems to me they would make a killing! I don't know about you, but I > would pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or elliptical. > > Thoughts? > Jessica Kostiw > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:34 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] access to appliances > > >> Hi all, >> >> Now a days it seems like more flat pannels out there! Many students live >> at home when not studying at college in the dorms. For those of you in >> your own places, a question. >> >> How have you made your appliances accessible? All appliances are flat: >> microwaves, stoves, and ovens. Dishwashers too. These flat touch >> screens can be labeled so we can use them. Stoves are another problem >> though. >> I know there are talking microwaves. Are there other talking appliances? >> It would be neat to have a talking dishwasher so it could call out to you >> when your dishes were done! >> >> Do you have stoves you can feel the burners? Most stoves now have flat >> tops! I was at Sears and another store and saw this. I don't think a >> flat stove would be real safe. I have one at home here and use my vision >> for it. Its harder to center the pots. When I could touch the burners I >> touched them before turning on the stove. I centered the pot and then >> turned the stove on. My point being flat stoves are not as accessible! >> When they started making flat stoves with flat burners they didn't think >> of low vision. >> I have tunnel vision. The burners are not even a different color making >> it hard to see! You can only see it after the stove is turned on and the >> burner turns a redish color from the heat. >> >> Are there companies that have more accessible appliances than others? If >> so, which ones? Any out there making the old type of stove where the >> burners were raised? >> Just wondering what's out there. If this is a problem, NFB should >> advocate for accessibility. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4102 (20090525) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sat Jun 13 01:38:41 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:38:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Donating blood/plasma In-Reply-To: <461842.27056.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <461842.27056.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090612213841.0je7fkxtfwo4sgkk@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Jim, Thank you for donating! It's so important and few people appreciate that. I think your idea is a good one, as often many people would be in a similar situation. I've donated blood before and noticed that many elderly people also do so it makes sense that a shuttle bus be provided. I hope it works out. Just a question, is being paid for blood donations a nation-wide thing or just in Montana? I had never heard of it before. Happy donating, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > I have a question for you all; I am wqondering if anyone has ever > thought of, or tried this before. > >  I live in a town that has a Biolife Plasma Center. Essentially, its > kinda like donating blood, except they donl take the blood, just > the plasma,  and return the rest, You can get paid for this > "donation"- you can go twice a week, you can make $50 a week, and > make up to $200 a month. > > When I had my car I used to go out there twice a week, every week. > Now that I dont have my car I cant get out there. There are buses > that run that way, but they are so infrequent that the bus is not > practicle. Additionally, the polasma process is unpredicatable, some > times you can be in and out of the center in one- hour, but > sometimes it takes 2 hours. That unpredictability is not good when > yoy have a bus to catch and a 1.5 hour wait if you miss the bus. > Billings does have a cab service, but it would be a $16 round-trip;  > hardly worth it to make $20. > > I called Biolife and spoke to an assistant manager, I explained that > I am a blind guy who used to donate regularly, and wanted to > restart. I told him that I noticed plent of off-peak times when the > center is pretty empty. I suggested that Biolife arrainge a shuttle > bus during these times, or contract with the cab service. The > assistant manager thought I had a good idea and was going to pass it > along to the general manager. > > I was wondering, have any of you tried anything lke this with eather > a biolife center, or a blood bank? to what sucess? > > thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From hope.paulos at maine.edu Sat Jun 13 01:42:51 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:42:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment References: <004c01c9ebb2$f35eeb80$9151a962@Jessica> Message-ID: I know they have accessible rowing machines. Or at least a program that makes the machine talk. I can't remember the name of it though. I'm sorry. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment > Jessica, > > I second that! I'd pay extra for an accessible treadmill or eliptical. > They make so many talking devices including ones for health like talking > thermometers and scales. > So why hasn't someone come up with a talking piece of cardio equipment? I > wrote a while back about accessible appliances. The same goes for workout > equipment. Just substitute appliance for cardio equipment and you have > the same problem. > Flat screens are prevalent in fitness equipment. The flat display allows > you to program a workout with hills or varied resistance. It also provides > you with great information about your workout including speed, distance, > and estimated calories burned. Such information is inaccessible. Well, I > have enough vision to read the screen and do so. But for some that's not > an option. > > You can label the screenwith dimo tape or something for now so at least > you can start and stop it independently. But still the display is not > accessible. > > To answer your question, NFB is working on this I think. Call the > national office and ask someone in the legislative department to be sure. > NFB has proposed a technology bill of Rights. I know little about it > other than it will mandate that new technology includes some non visual > access. This probably includes those flat screens on fitness equipment. > You might want to bring this concern to Lisa Maria the sports and rec > president and the NFB national office. > > BTW, for now some equipment is more tactile than others. I heard through > the sports and rec list. > Nordic Track has a treadmill with tactile switches. > Also Precor is pretty tactile. I used a Precor eliptical at the gym and > the arrows for crossramp and resistance are tactile. The start button > feels different too. > > HTH, > Ashley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jessica Kostiw" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:10 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment > > >> Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread. I've been really busy >> and am just now getting to my E mail. I have a question. Does anyone >> know if NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise >> equipment? It seems to me they would make a killing! I don't know about >> you, but I would pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or >> elliptical. >> >> Thoughts? >> Jessica Kostiw >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:34 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] access to appliances >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Now a days it seems like more flat pannels out there! Many students >>> live at home when not studying at college in the dorms. For those of >>> you in your own places, a question. >>> >>> How have you made your appliances accessible? All appliances are flat: >>> microwaves, stoves, and ovens. Dishwashers too. These flat touch >>> screens can be labeled so we can use them. Stoves are another problem >>> though. >>> I know there are talking microwaves. Are there other talking >>> appliances? It would be neat to have a talking dishwasher so it could >>> call out to you when your dishes were done! >>> >>> Do you have stoves you can feel the burners? Most stoves now have flat >>> tops! I was at Sears and another store and saw this. I don't think a >>> flat stove would be real safe. I have one at home here and use my >>> vision for it. Its harder to center the pots. When I could touch the >>> burners I touched them before turning on the stove. I centered the pot >>> and then turned the stove on. My point being flat stoves are not as >>> accessible! >>> When they started making flat stoves with flat burners they didn't think >>> of low vision. >>> I have tunnel vision. The burners are not even a different color making >>> it hard to see! You can only see it after the stove is turned on and >>> the burner turns a redish color from the heat. >>> >>> Are there companies that have more accessible appliances than others? >>> If so, which ones? Any out there making the old type of stove where the >>> burners were raised? >>> Just wondering what's out there. If this is a problem, NFB should >>> advocate for accessibility. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 4102 (20090525) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine.edu From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sat Jun 13 02:06:04 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:06:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090612220604.5gznqo5vwos04skc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Arielle, I used R with JAWS as part of a co-op placement in high school. I found I had to have the JAWS cursor on all the time to hear anything. You have to keep activating it to read the xcreen with the arrow keys, and then have to activae the PC cursor when you want to input code. It's a bit irritating, but you get used to it pretty quickly. Happy stats, Sarah Quoting Arielle Silverman : > Hi all, > > I was just wondering whether anyone has had experience using the > statistical package "R" with JAWS? Some of our stat labs here are > switching from SPSS to R and so many of our students are being > expected to learn it. I would like to learn it in order to be able to > teach/tutor for stats courses here. Since R is a fully command-driven > program, it seems like it should be fully accessible, but when I tried > playing with it I couldn't tell whether or not I had received an error > message after entering a line of code. I am not sure whether this is a > universal problem or if I just wasn't using the right navigation > commands to interact with the program. Any suggestions or experiences > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks! > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 02:06:28 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:06:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9FEDB1273F954718BB2E90FCBB3D2667@sacomputer> Message-ID: <006301c9ebcb$90bc7c90$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> When I was at BISM I went across a street and didn't even realize I had crossed the street until someone walking passed told me! Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > Oh lol. Yeah I've made that mistake too, especially when going to down to > tech drive. Those cars sound about 2 inches away from your foot. I also > use > the tap slide methid to indicate what's gong on, or I will once I get my > ballence back in order. I use a conbonation of both tap slide and the > constant contact. Good luck in your cane travel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 1:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > > Hi Jim and all, > > If you drag your cane along the ground rather than tapping it (also known > as > "constant contact") it's a bit easier to feel the contrast between > concrete > and asphalt. It's also much easier to detect this contrast with an NFB > fiberglass or carbon fiber cane (and a rigid cane will give you maximum > sensitivity). At the NFB training centers, they teach you how to walk > safely > in the gutter between the curb and street by following the curb with your > cane ("shorelining") and making sure not to get more than a step or so > away > from the curb. Many streets also have a "crown" or a ridge between the > gutter and street that your cane will stick on. Once you cross the crown, > you're in trouble, but as long as you stay on the curb site of the crown, > you're safe. Making sure you can feel the curb with your cane with each > step > will prevent you from wandering to the opposite side of the street (which, > believe me, I made that mistake more than once in Louisiana!) > > As for landmarks, as others have mentioned, anything you can hear, smell > or > feel with your cane is a landmark-inclines, texture changes like > cobblestones on the sidewalk, echo changes (going from a covered to an > open > area or vice versa), loud air conditioners, construction, fountains, etc. > are all helpful as long as they're consistently in the same place. If > nothing else, you can always count driveways or sidewalks between, say, > your > house and the closest street corner. My boyfriend's apartment building > isn't > really distinctive from the others at all, but I always knew how to find > it > once I discovered that it was the second sidewalk after the fourth > driveway > I crossed once I turn on his street-and the sidewalk slopes up, so if I > space out and turn in at the first one instead, I'll know right away that > I'm on the wrong track. If you have a busy street that intersects the > street > you live on, use that as a landmark-if you were walking toward it at the > beginning of your trip, you should be walking away from it on your way > back, > etc. > > Best of luck and keep exploring! > Arielle > > > On 6/13/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Jim, >> For orientation, a few more comments on landmarks. >> Something like the slope of the ground is a landmark. >> With practice you might feel the difference in texture from concrete >> to asphalt to indicate its a street. >> Landmarks can also be objects like poles or mail boxes. >> Scents help too. Maybe there's the smell of certain flowers near your > home. >> Everyone suggests compass directions. You can try that. But that >> didn't help me too much unless I was walking east or west during the >> daytime on a sunny day. >> Cardinal directions were just hard to understand. >> After high school I had an O M instructor come to my house to pick me >> up and practice mobility and get oriented to campus prior to the >> semester begginning. After all in school I wanted to focus on >> academics not orientation. Anyway, she talked about compass >> directions. She also talked about landmarks and listening to traffic >> for orientation. She was not in NFB using structured discovery >> officially > but she was excellent I thought. >> I just say this to show that a non NFB instructor can have positive >> attitudes and use concepts similar to those NFB instructors have. >> >> Ashley >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jim Reed" >> To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" >> >> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 >> >> >> Hey all, >> The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to >> be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it >> more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >> sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >> basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then >> overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >> sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out >> how > I got turned around the first time. >> I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my >> mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I >> hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, >> large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. > and very large sidewalks. >> and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >> street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >> on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic >> at midnight, I was safe). >> >> I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >> make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel > vulnerable. >> >> Thanks, >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn >> pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still >> unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40 >> earthlink.net >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4150 (20090612) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm >> ail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From jbahm at pcdesk.net Sat Jun 13 02:35:29 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:35:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Using R with JAWS In-Reply-To: <20090612220604.5gznqo5vwos04skc@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <20090612220604.5gznqo5vwos04skc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <4A331071.4050000@pcdesk.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 What happens if you use set the speaking mode (don't remember the exact name) to "all"? The insert+s key is what I'm refering to here. For standard command lines you don't need to do that with newer versions of JAWS, but it's something to try in this specific situation for those of you having trouble getting R itself to speak. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKMxBxAAoJEMh8jNraUiwqILIH/jBkUwTN+8B8/LjWMeP5Ktmi XPWU2T+0Kv0n+aOMbe0GuwSaToO2ZGGyXksVfE4sf+8oFvCdDcysOb90+ZgPALXL xkI/FF6gUEYtShbFcNL0mN5/vXV7OeChJ5qglc5X5h4cv16mWvCz4jFzXWIHp0Sp pMuK7qKFG4RZqsIJZ9d+Cx6nP3HbC33fhu7yVt9GFwhS1xyraHJFYxjCyS3nA2vA ozcyiAKBkoj02JDKkJpUouki5PuhabnbKnkJkHJ7NFXEhsj5FnOemnKIw5j5bByv U40YKL7XuKOFP16fOCNlK5cL86MtZO+E6HRg9pARy7L5y5ISGJkPDxojNbFL4aU= =DFHe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cumbiambera2005 at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 02:49:34 2009 From: cumbiambera2005 at gmail.com (Ashley Alexander) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:49:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Digital Converters? Message-ID: <4804d1140906121949o6ac71524x2b21994342113e35@mail.gmail.com> I heard something about that you have to program the new digital converters to get reception from the digital channels, and that you have to do this every so often. Does anyone have any advice on how to use the digital converter as far as programming it, etc? I'm a little hesitant on how to do that programming and being able to use it, so any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Ashley From dandrews at visi.com Sat Jun 13 02:52:32 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:52:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Adobie Reader 9 In-Reply-To: <004801c9eadd$18182f80$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <004801c9eadd$18182f80$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: The most common cause of this is that the document contains an image of a printed page, not the text itself. There are no settings that you can change that will help this. All you can do is perform OCR optical character recognition on the file itself, or on a printout of the file. Dave At 04:39 PM 6/11/2009, you wrote: >Hi I have a pdf file I need to open but I wanted to know if there is >a way to change the settings. Are there certain settings it should >be set to? After it opens the document it then tells me the document >is empty. Can someone please help me out asap? >Thanks. >Rania, >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4149 (20090611) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 03:10:31 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:10:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Donating blood/plasma In-Reply-To: <20090612213841.0je7fkxtfwo4sgkk@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <461842.27056.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090612213841.0je7fkxtfwo4sgkk@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <88D96A39477A429BB0A0A7B110C1D6E9@sacomputer> Someone did it in the small town there I lived. I'd do it to help out, but I don't weigh enough and I'm very afraid of needles. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 6:39 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Donating blood/plasma Hi Jim, Thank you for donating! It's so important and few people appreciate that. I think your idea is a good one, as often many people would be in a similar situation. I've donated blood before and noticed that many elderly people also do so it makes sense that a shuttle bus be provided. I hope it works out. Just a question, is being paid for blood donations a nation-wide thing or just in Montana? I had never heard of it before. Happy donating, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > I have a question for you all; I am wqondering if anyone has ever > thought of, or tried this before. > >  I live in a town that has a Biolife Plasma Center. Essentially, its > kinda like donating blood, except they donl take the blood, just the > plasma,  and return the rest, You can get paid for this > "donation"- you can go twice a week, you can make $50 a week, and > make up to $200 a month. > > When I had my car I used to go out there twice a week, every week. > Now that I dont have my car I cant get out there. There are buses > that run that way, but they are so infrequent that the bus is not > practicle. Additionally, the polasma process is unpredicatable, some > times you can be in and out of the center in one- hour, but > sometimes it takes 2 hours. That unpredictability is not good when > yoy have a bus to catch and a 1.5 hour wait if you miss the bus. > Billings does have a cab service, but it would be a $16 round-trip; > hardly worth it to make $20. > > I called Biolife and spoke to an assistant manager, I explained that > I am a blind guy who used to donate regularly, and wanted to > restart. I told him that I noticed plent of off-peak times when the > center is pretty empty. I suggested that Biolife arrainge a shuttle > bus during these times, or contract with the cab service. The > assistant manager thought I had a good idea and was going to pass it > along to the general manager. > > I was wondering, have any of you tried anything lke this with eather > a biolife center, or a blood bank? to what sucess? > > thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn > pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still > unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar > %40utoronto.ca > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 03:10:31 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:10:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: <006301c9ebcb$90bc7c90$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><9FEDB1273F954718BB2E90FCBB3D2667@sacomputer> <006301c9ebcb$90bc7c90$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <1824BE35E9B14EBEB31B8C4D0D41E8D8@sacomputer> I've done that before. I blaised across 2 or three streets not paying any attention to where I was and ended up 2 miles from the lcb. Not fun! That was my fault though, not the canes. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:06 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 When I was at BISM I went across a street and didn't even realize I had crossed the street until someone walking passed told me! Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > Oh lol. Yeah I've made that mistake too, especially when going to down > to tech drive. Those cars sound about 2 inches away from your foot. I > also use the tap slide methid to indicate what's gong on, or I will > once I get my ballence back in order. I use a conbonation of both tap > slide and the constant contact. Good luck in your cane travel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 1:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > > Hi Jim and all, > > If you drag your cane along the ground rather than tapping it (also > known as "constant contact") it's a bit easier to feel the contrast > between concrete and asphalt. It's also much easier to detect this > contrast with an NFB fiberglass or carbon fiber cane (and a rigid cane > will give you maximum sensitivity). At the NFB training centers, they > teach you how to walk safely in the gutter between the curb and street > by following the curb with your cane ("shorelining") and making sure > not to get more than a step or so away from the curb. Many streets > also have a "crown" or a ridge between the gutter and street that your > cane will stick on. Once you cross the crown, you're in trouble, but > as long as you stay on the curb site of the crown, you're safe. Making > sure you can feel the curb with your cane with each step will prevent > you from wandering to the opposite side of the street (which, believe > me, I made that mistake more than once in Louisiana!) > > As for landmarks, as others have mentioned, anything you can hear, > smell or feel with your cane is a landmark-inclines, texture changes > like cobblestones on the sidewalk, echo changes (going from a covered > to an open area or vice versa), loud air conditioners, construction, > fountains, etc. > are all helpful as long as they're consistently in the same place. If > nothing else, you can always count driveways or sidewalks between, > say, your house and the closest street corner. My boyfriend's > apartment building isn't really distinctive from the others at all, > but I always knew how to find it once I discovered that it was the > second sidewalk after the fourth driveway I crossed once I turn on his > street-and the sidewalk slopes up, so if I space out and turn in at > the first one instead, I'll know right away that I'm on the wrong > track. If you have a busy street that intersects the street you live > on, use that as a landmark-if you were walking toward it at the > beginning of your trip, you should be walking away from it on your way > back, etc. > > Best of luck and keep exploring! > Arielle > > > On 6/13/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Jim, >> For orientation, a few more comments on landmarks. >> Something like the slope of the ground is a landmark. >> With practice you might feel the difference in texture from concrete >> to asphalt to indicate its a street. >> Landmarks can also be objects like poles or mail boxes. >> Scents help too. Maybe there's the smell of certain flowers near >> your > home. >> Everyone suggests compass directions. You can try that. But that >> didn't help me too much unless I was walking east or west during the >> daytime on a sunny day. >> Cardinal directions were just hard to understand. >> After high school I had an O M instructor come to my house to pick me >> up and practice mobility and get oriented to campus prior to the >> semester begginning. After all in school I wanted to focus on >> academics not orientation. Anyway, she talked about compass >> directions. She also talked about landmarks and listening to traffic >> for orientation. She was not in NFB using structured discovery >> officially > but she was excellent I thought. >> I just say this to show that a non NFB instructor can have positive >> attitudes and use concepts similar to those NFB instructors have. >> >> Ashley >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jim Reed" >> To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" >> >> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:15 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 >> >> >> Hey all, >> The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to >> be hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make >> it more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >> sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >> basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then >> overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >> sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure >> out how > I got turned around the first time. >> I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my >> mistake when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I >> hadn't passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, >> large parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. > and very large sidewalks. >> and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >> street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >> on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no >> traffic at midnight, I was safe). >> >> I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >> make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel > vulnerable. >> >> Thanks, >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and >> stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still >> unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0 >> earthlink.net >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4150 (20090612) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g >> m >> ail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gma > il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04% > 40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Jun 13 03:55:27 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:55:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Message-ID: <20090613035527.7863.47356@web2.serotek.com> Was that the Dollar General parking lot? I'd get lost in that one almost every time. then, i'd realize that something was wrong. The traffic wasn't in the right place, so I'd backtrack, find myself going downhill toward the street, then realize that I'd gone into that silly thing yet again. respectfully Submitted, Jedi Original message: > I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. The > thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that were not > moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far away. I wandered > in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to the center. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Angela fowler > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > Jim, > Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test > drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the hang > of it you will find it a big help. > A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the > neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X street > and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that landmark. > If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you have > that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, and I > turned left, so now I'm walking north. > If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime > detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you have > drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been using a cane > all my life and I still hate them LOL. > Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more > comfortable you will be with it. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jim Reed > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM > To: MAB List; NABS mail list > Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > Hey all, > The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard > to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more > challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at > night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the > sunglasses on,  I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two > blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my > way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. > I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when > I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the > gym, I'd be one county over by now.  Oh, by the way, large parking lots are > a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. > and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street > without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other > side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was > safe). > I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make > you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > Thanks, > Jim > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Jun 13 03:57:49 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:57:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment Message-ID: <20090613035749.5895.72624@web2.serotek.com> I don't know about that, but i do know that Curves has some accessible equipment. You just sit in it (or stand) and start moving. It's all hydrolicly controlled. I also know that other gyms have equipment where you control the weight by putting apin in the right hole. The problem with that is, which one is the right hole? I suppose one could just count. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread. I've been really busy and > am just now getting to my E mail. I have a question. Does anyone know if > NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise equipment? It > seems to me they would make a killing! I don't know about you, but I would > pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or elliptical. > Thoughts? > Jessica Kostiw > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:34 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] access to appliances >> Hi all, >> Now a days it seems like more flat pannels out there! Many students live >> at home when not studying at college in the dorms. For those of you in >> your own places, a question. >> How have you made your appliances accessible? All appliances are flat: >> microwaves, stoves, and ovens. Dishwashers too. These flat touch screens >> can be labeled so we can use them. Stoves are another problem though. >> I know there are talking microwaves. Are there other talking appliances? >> It would be neat to have a talking dishwasher so it could call out to you >> when your dishes were done! >> Do you have stoves you can feel the burners? Most stoves now have flat >> tops! I was at Sears and another store and saw this. I don't think a >> flat stove would be real safe. I have one at home here and use my vision >> for it. Its harder to center the pots. When I could touch the burners I >> touched them before turning on the stove. I centered the pot and then >> turned the stove on. My point being flat stoves are not as accessible! >> When they started making flat stoves with flat burners they didn't think >> of low vision. >> I have tunnel vision. The burners are not even a different color making >> it hard to see! You can only see it after the stove is turned on and the >> burner turns a redish color from the heat. >> Are there companies that have more accessible appliances than others? If >> so, which ones? Any out there making the old type of stove where the >> burners were raised? >> Just wondering what's out there. If this is a problem, NFB should >> advocate for accessibility. >> Ashley >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4102 (20090525) __________ >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> http://www.eset.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Jun 13 04:23:03 2009 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 04:23:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions Message-ID: <212666187.3814921244866983554.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello all, well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, co about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one thing indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and forth from the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they were to help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed easy but, i have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i go on my own i get lost! it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident traveler and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in this area for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when you somewhat know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family teach this to you or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? what have any of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after you have moved there successfully and be confident in dioing this independtally? also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i don't have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and replace the old ones easily and independtally? thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! hugs, from amy From fowlers at syix.com Sat Jun 13 04:34:27 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:34:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment In-Reply-To: <20090613035749.5895.72624@web2.serotek.com> References: <20090613035749.5895.72624@web2.serotek.com> Message-ID: <3D39DAB0087B42189676D01C91EB104F@angelab> My treadmill isn't that bad. It's a nordic trac and all the buttons are actual buttons rather than touch screen junk. Obviously I can't read the display, but all I really care about is the time as I know what speed I'm going at by the way in which I pressed the controls. You have the time and approximate speed and you can pretty much figure the distance. Also, they do have talking pedometers. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 8:58 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment I don't know about that, but i do know that Curves has some accessible equipment. You just sit in it (or stand) and start moving. It's all hydrolicly controlled. I also know that other gyms have equipment where you control the weight by putting apin in the right hole. The problem with that is, which one is the right hole? I suppose one could just count. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread. I've been really busy > and am just now getting to my E mail. I have a question. Does anyone > know if NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise > equipment? It seems to me they would make a killing! I don't know > about you, but I would pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or elliptical. > Thoughts? > Jessica Kostiw > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:34 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] access to appliances >> Hi all, >> Now a days it seems like more flat pannels out there! Many students >> live at home when not studying at college in the dorms. For those of >> you in your own places, a question. >> How have you made your appliances accessible? All appliances are flat: >> microwaves, stoves, and ovens. Dishwashers too. These flat touch >> screens can be labeled so we can use them. Stoves are another problem though. >> I know there are talking microwaves. Are there other talking appliances? >> It would be neat to have a talking dishwasher so it could call out to >> you when your dishes were done! >> Do you have stoves you can feel the burners? Most stoves now have >> flat tops! I was at Sears and another store and saw this. I don't >> think a flat stove would be real safe. I have one at home here and >> use my vision for it. Its harder to center the pots. When I could >> touch the burners I touched them before turning on the stove. I >> centered the pot and then turned the stove on. My point being flat stoves are not as accessible! >> When they started making flat stoves with flat burners they didn't >> think of low vision. >> I have tunnel vision. The burners are not even a different color >> making it hard to see! You can only see it after the stove is turned >> on and the burner turns a redish color from the heat. >> Are there companies that have more accessible appliances than others? >> If so, which ones? Any out there making the old type of stove where >> the burners were raised? >> Just wondering what's out there. If this is a problem, NFB should >> advocate for accessibility. >> Ashley >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4102 (20090525) __________ >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> http://www.eset.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kost >> iw%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% > 40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From brsmith24 at hotmail.com Sat Jun 13 04:51:58 2009 From: brsmith24 at hotmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:51:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment In-Reply-To: <20090613035749.5895.72624@web2.serotek.com> References: <20090613035749.5895.72624@web2.serotek.com> Message-ID: These suggestions are often true to some extent or another. Half the equipment in my university's gym is accessible, at least in part. It's nice to work out with people, which is often what I do. In that case, when using a bike or treadmill I can just ask my partner for relevant information. Same with amount of weight being used. There are also pocket-sized devices you can buy that talk and tell you information like heart rate, calories burned, speed, ETC. These are independent of the machine used, but I suppose would work consistently well. I really wish stuff like the p90x workout was accessible. Of course most of these exercises can be found elsewhere If you look hard enough, but I know people using it with very pleasing results and intense workout sessions. You work alternating muscles, where you actually must "work" for ripped results. High price tag or not, it's ranked and reviewed well. Since the program is video-based, I'm guessing there's a visual component to the program that would be hard to overcome. It would be nice, though. Brice > From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:57:49 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment > > I don't know about that, but i do know that Curves has some accessible > equipment. You just sit in it (or stand) and start moving. It's all > hydrolicly controlled. I also know that other gyms have equipment where > you control the weight by putting apin in the right hole. The problem > with that is, which one is the right hole? I suppose one could just count. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > > Original message: > > Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread. I've been really busy and > > am just now getting to my E mail. I have a question. Does anyone know if > > NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise equipment? It > > seems to me they would make a killing! I don't know about you, but I would > > pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or elliptical. > > > Thoughts? > > Jessica Kostiw > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:34 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] access to appliances > > > >> Hi all, > > >> Now a days it seems like more flat pannels out there! Many students live > >> at home when not studying at college in the dorms. For those of you in > >> your own places, a question. > > >> How have you made your appliances accessible? All appliances are flat: > >> microwaves, stoves, and ovens. Dishwashers too. These flat touch screens > >> can be labeled so we can use them. Stoves are another problem though. > >> I know there are talking microwaves. Are there other talking appliances? > >> It would be neat to have a talking dishwasher so it could call out to you > >> when your dishes were done! > > >> Do you have stoves you can feel the burners? Most stoves now have flat > >> tops! I was at Sears and another store and saw this. I don't think a > >> flat stove would be real safe. I have one at home here and use my vision > >> for it. Its harder to center the pots. When I could touch the burners I > >> touched them before turning on the stove. I centered the pot and then > >> turned the stove on. My point being flat stoves are not as accessible! > >> When they started making flat stoves with flat burners they didn't think > >> of low vision. > >> I have tunnel vision. The burners are not even a different color making > >> it hard to see! You can only see it after the stove is turned on and the > >> burner turns a redish color from the heat. > > >> Are there companies that have more accessible appliances than others? If > >> so, which ones? Any out there making the old type of stove where the > >> burners were raised? > >> Just wondering what's out there. If this is a problem, NFB should > >> advocate for accessibility. > > >> Ashley > > > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > >> signature database 4102 (20090525) __________ > > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > >> http://www.eset.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From jbahm at pcdesk.net Sat Jun 13 05:00:44 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:00:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Digital Converters? In-Reply-To: <4804d1140906121949o6ac71524x2b21994342113e35@mail.gmail.com> References: <4804d1140906121949o6ac71524x2b21994342113e35@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A33327C.3010509@pcdesk.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hey there Ashley, All programming the digital converter box means is you need to have it scan for channels periodically. This scan checks the frequencies on which digital TV is broadcast and updates the list of channels on your box. That way, when you use the channel up and down buttons on the remote, your box only goes to channels it knows actually exist. It's the same function that tv sets have had for quite a while now, only it does it with digital frequencies instead of analog ones. As for how to do it, that varies from box to box. There will be a button on the box or the remote, or else it will be in the settings menu of the box. It's not hard to do. If you know your specific make and model of box, email me privately and I can help you program it. In general, though, You just tell it you want to perform a scan, then wait a few minutes for it to do it. There's no fancy programming involved. Just make sure you have your antenna connected and placed properly before you do the scan because if you can't receive a signal you obviously won't be able to scan for valid channels. Make sure you perform a scan on June 13 to pick up new digital channels. Then do it again as often as you believe necessary. Probably once a month is more than enough. Even every few months would probably do. You may want to do it a little more often for the first few months after the digital conversion because there might be new channels adding digital ability. They should have done already if they were going to, but it could happen. Let me know if I can be of further assistance. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKMzJ8AAoJEMh8jNraUiwqL6sH/3xyVZXWx5B36Irx9An+od2V XLkRcZorCSYnFhVbi5UPqMqsXQ+EXdRABIHyeiQJ+1O7giJu1LVxMcXOrvgNluqX oQfHWKb92gYvoxgWMuB/m4LYij+ElEhXqP36lBAD8Tt3OmKG8iMT2dFhXnuYUyQ6 pAMTMf8AHHFZ4ONfKCyGVtibEjwSpWbXSOdqS4VDmfT2UdjAURUCk+mQntAQm4XQ JYRrnsEG+qPU4eGU3UBrueDcooKyvXrKkODQvJfhIoT80E1f3PZw1TpafsUEs2Zl Hj96wKN59ggqB2XR9AU1qvQ6hip4xKM/MUgV0mg0ohbLPQEys0bkkx4g5d/TPjY= =bRyi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Jun 13 05:31:54 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 01:31:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions Message-ID: <20090613053154.10910.18194@web2.serotek.com> I don't know about those cane tips, but you might try a GPS solution to learn new areas you just can't seem to wrap your head around. Either that, or contact the San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind for a Braille map of your neighborhood. Either of these might be useful tools to get you oriented. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > hello all, > well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, co > about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one thing > indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and forth > from the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they > were to help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed > easy but, i have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i > go on my own i get lost! > it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident traveler > and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in this area > for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when you > somewhat know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family teach > this to you or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? > what have any of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after > you have moved there successfully and be confident in dioing this > independtally? > also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i don't > have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and replace > the old ones easily and independtally? > thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! > hugs, > from amy > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From fowlers at syix.com Sat Jun 13 07:49:04 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 00:49:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] maps In-Reply-To: <20090613053154.10910.18194@web2.serotek.com> References: <20090613053154.10910.18194@web2.serotek.com> Message-ID: <05EAE9418DF44E5989D6705FD87426AA@angelab> Speaking of maps, anyone know where I could get a tactile political map of California? Thanks Angela -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] mobility questions I don't know about those cane tips, but you might try a GPS solution to learn new areas you just can't seem to wrap your head around. Either that, or contact the San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind for a Braille map of your neighborhood. Either of these might be useful tools to get you oriented. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > hello all, > well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, > co about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one > thing indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and > forth from the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me > when they were to help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought > it seemed easy but, i have tried to do this successfully and, both > times when i go on my own i get lost! > it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident > traveler and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in > this area for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when > you somewhat know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family > teach this to you or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? > what have any of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after > you have moved there successfully and be confident in dioing this > independtally? > also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i > don't have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and > replace the old ones easily and independtally? > thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! > hugs, > from amy > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% > 40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From habnkid at aol.com Sat Jun 13 08:08:00 2009 From: habnkid at aol.com (Haben Girma) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 01:08:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cell phone question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A335E60.3050100@aol.com> Hi David, The Nokia E71X is one of the phones AT&T will offer with their discount rate of Mobile Speak. I seem to remember hearing, though, that the version of Mobile Speak AT&T offers is not the "full" version but some simpler version. I'm not completely sure about this. Also, starting June 19th an accessible iPhone will be available for purchase. The iPhone has a built-in screen reader and magnifier, so your friend wouldn't have to pay extra for a separate screen reader like Mobile Speak. However, depending on which phone your friend buys, another AT&T phone and their cheap Mobile Speak might cost less or more than the iPhone (with contracts). best of luck, Haben David Dunphy wrote: > Hi There! > I have a friend who is lookiong to switch to AT&T. I've heard there are some phones where you can get Mobile Speak for like 89 dollars. > Does anyone know what models these are, and if they'll install MobileSpeak for you, or if you have to do that? Interested how the activation of the mobile speak license works too. > Hope someone can help. > >From David > > ***** > If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and more! > To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at > http://www.radio360.us > Follow us on twitter at > http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa > or add us to your MySpace at > http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa > Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com > From steve.jacobson at visi.com Sat Jun 13 10:57:33 2009 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:57:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Adobie Reader 9 Message-ID: In addition to what Dave points out, some OCR packages are able to extract text from such PDF documents directly. OmniPage has this ability as does K-1000. Others do as well but I'm less familiar with how they work. If you have one of these packages, you won't need to physically print and scan the document to read it. If you are a student and these documents are coming from your college or school, you should mention this problem. The "empty document" problem comes from how the PDF's were originally created. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:52:32 -0500, David Andrews wrote: >The most common cause of this is that the document contains an image >of a printed page, not the text itself. There are no settings that >you can change that will help this. All you can do is perform OCR >optical character recognition on the file itself, or on a printout of the file. >Dave >At 04:39 PM 6/11/2009, you wrote: >>Hi I have a pdf file I need to open but I wanted to know if there is >>a way to change the settings. Are there certain settings it should >>be set to? After it opens the document it then tells me the document >>is empty. Can someone please help me out asap? >>Thanks. >>Rania, >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>signature database 4149 (20090611) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From jbahm at pcdesk.net Sat Jun 13 11:33:03 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 05:33:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Adobie Reader 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A338E6F.2050602@pcdesk.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Allow me to just add to what Steve said by saying that if you have one of these packages not only is it faster, but you'll most likely get better OCR quality as well. This being because the image is electronically transfered to the software performing the OCR instead of it first being subject to the quality limitations of your printer, then to the resolution of your scanner. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKM45vAAoJEMh8jNraUiwqjEYIAIcaUaEPDIHQr6T5icdGbEnx 0bXiNzLPIBJSOlzfCeySfSZFO/1UWuHd6np5RUlvz1tWo6n/r4EpTbEpJCBPIqyi bwCaPzdQd/6rh0gS0/PTKczrvSYQM2j5Xtc7zf2AFXw/QUY1FtupOjr071v6ATmB heV3H4LMmNAh8Cyix2+7QTLsDRpSNc9GYBOCqykMZfCIshNjLi3Mnoe2OfemJCp8 5AY3aGvYs2flIGpHBG0iaC38ahp/V9g3YWt7x9/PMgqrxGCdSuxV//VLl7Dhw3P4 J9I7U6d6k/2JsL8axGzw1Sgd3qVAHnPHuPbYzIcoV/y6zSAwtntbWRuZnkpIUsE= =bAr7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ginisd at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 13 13:20:28 2009 From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 06:20:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions References: <212666187.3814921244866983554.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Amy, Congratulations on taking on the adventure of making your way with your cane travel in an area new to you. Even after learning basic skills as a cane traveler, each individual neighborhood, or campus, can be a set of different challenges to deal with. A few years ago, I was forced to leave an area that I had been in over twenty years as a result of a condo conversion in my town of San Diego California, for a partof town completely unfamiliar to me. The change was to a part of town I had always wanted to live in, but the area was full of obstacles I had to work through, and it is still an on going process for me to move ffreely and with confidence. I am right now totally without sight, after years of having ups and downs in my vision. Intersections are something I am still mastering, and I miss the days sometimes when as a partially sighted person I could see the white lines of the pedestrian crosswalk. But of course there are ways of lining up at the angle to safely cross the street without vision, even for someone who tends to veer to the left and right as I do. Just as an example, , in my case I was moving from a part of the city where the blocks were laid out in a neat grid or series of squares, easy to conceptualize, to a street which is basically a semi circle with cross streets at odd angles. In my case, the Department of Rehabilitation sent out an orientation and mobility instructor not only to help me get a concept of the area, but I also ended up strengthening and updating my already pretty good cane skills. In a perfect world, it would be great if such services were consistently available when needed by visually inpaired people relocating, but funding can be unpredictable. It is usually advised, from the reading I have done, that if possible someone sighted or a visually impaired person who is familiar with your area help you travel a proposed route initially, filling you in on obstacles, possible landmarks, and brainstrorming intersections . Again, some areas are trickier than others to master. One thing that I really enjoyed in my early days here in my new neighborhood of San Diego called Normal Heights, was using a talking compass worn around my neck. The one I used costs about seventy five dollars. It is a great and I find, fun, tool for getting the big picture of a new place. A volunteer from the San Diego center for the Blind also gave me her input about my new surroundings, and while she was not a pro, her thoughts were helpful as she described peculiarities of some streets and intersections. Again, some areas of the city would have presented me with few problems, and I could have probably planned routes mostly by myself with no fuss or muss, but it can be a time saver also to have help Also, it is great, once a route is planned, to take notes in braille or a computer file so details, of say, turning right at the rose bush, can be retained easily. I have never tried tactile maps, but I am going to look into it. Some of the new mobility tools, with GPS aspects, are probably great too. Anyway, these are my thoughts, and I hope they relate to your situation, Happy Travels, Ginnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" To: "NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:23 PM Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions > hello all, > > well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, co > about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one thing > indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and forth from > the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they were to > help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed easy but, i > have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i go on my own i > get lost! > > it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident traveler > and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in this area > for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when you somewhat > know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family teach this to you > or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? what have any > of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after you have moved > there successfully and be confident in dioing this independtally? > > also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i don't > have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and replace > the old ones easily and independtally? > > thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! > > > hugs, > from amy > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 13 15:18:55 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:18:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment References: <20090613035749.5895.72624@web2.serotek.com> Message-ID: Brice, Right that program has excellent reviews and is video based; its visual. There's auditory instructions of course that may or may not be follable depending on how much exercise background you have. You could use it with a friend to describe and show you stuff. Otherwise its not accessible. My brother has this program and he started but didn't finish due to the comitment involved. But its one of the best videos out there since it includes pilates and yoga moves as well as t5raditional strength. I also workout in a gym with people and ask someone to read the screen if I can't with my limited vision. Good luck in finding a solution to stay fit. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brice Smith" To: Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:51 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment These suggestions are often true to some extent or another. Half the equipment in my university's gym is accessible, at least in part. It's nice to work out with people, which is often what I do. In that case, when using a bike or treadmill I can just ask my partner for relevant information. Same with amount of weight being used. There are also pocket-sized devices you can buy that talk and tell you information like heart rate, calories burned, speed, ETC. These are independent of the machine used, but I suppose would work consistently well. I really wish stuff like the p90x workout was accessible. Of course most of these exercises can be found elsewhere If you look hard enough, but I know people using it with very pleasing results and intense workout sessions. You work alternating muscles, where you actually must "work" for ripped results. High price tag or not, it's ranked and reviewed well. Since the program is video-based, I'm guessing there's a visual component to the program that would be hard to overcome. It would be nice, though. Brice > From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 23:57:49 -0400 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment > > I don't know about that, but i do know that Curves has some accessible > equipment. You just sit in it (or stand) and start moving. It's all > hydrolicly controlled. I also know that other gyms have equipment where > you control the weight by putting apin in the right hole. The problem > with that is, which one is the right hole? I suppose one could just count. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > > Original message: > > Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread. I've been really busy > > and > > am just now getting to my E mail. I have a question. Does anyone know if > > NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise equipment? It > > seems to me they would make a killing! I don't know about you, but I > > would > > pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or elliptical. > > > Thoughts? > > Jessica Kostiw > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 5:34 PM > > Subject: [nabs-l] access to appliances > > > >> Hi all, > > >> Now a days it seems like more flat pannels out there! Many students > >> live > >> at home when not studying at college in the dorms. For those of you in > >> your own places, a question. > > >> How have you made your appliances accessible? All appliances are flat: > >> microwaves, stoves, and ovens. Dishwashers too. These flat touch > >> screens > >> can be labeled so we can use them. Stoves are another problem though. > >> I know there are talking microwaves. Are there other talking > >> appliances? > >> It would be neat to have a talking dishwasher so it could call out to > >> you > >> when your dishes were done! > > >> Do you have stoves you can feel the burners? Most stoves now have flat > >> tops! I was at Sears and another store and saw this. I don't think a > >> flat stove would be real safe. I have one at home here and use my > >> vision > >> for it. Its harder to center the pots. When I could touch the burners I > >> touched them before turning on the stove. I centered the pot and then > >> turned the stove on. My point being flat stoves are not as accessible! > >> When they started making flat stoves with flat burners they didn't > >> think > >> of low vision. > >> I have tunnel vision. The burners are not even a different color making > >> it hard to see! You can only see it after the stove is turned on and > >> the > >> burner turns a redish color from the heat. > > >> Are there companies that have more accessible appliances than others? > >> If > >> so, which ones? Any out there making the old type of stove where the > >> burners were raised? > >> Just wondering what's out there. If this is a problem, NFB should > >> advocate for accessibility. > > >> Ashley > > > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > >> signature database 4102 (20090525) __________ > > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > >> http://www.eset.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 13 15:22:24 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:22:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] maps References: <20090613053154.10910.18194@web2.serotek.com> <05EAE9418DF44E5989D6705FD87426AA@angelab> Message-ID: <555272193851497C9FF88B63967654AF@Ashley> Angela, Try American Printing house for the blind. They make several geographical maps. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela fowler" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 3:49 AM Subject: [nabs-l] maps > Speaking of maps, anyone know where I could get a tactile political map of > California? > Thanks > Angela > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Jedi > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:32 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] mobility questions > > I don't know about those cane tips, but you might try a GPS solution to > learn new areas you just can't seem to wrap your head around. Either that, > or contact the San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind for a Braille map of > your neighborhood. Either of these might be useful tools to get you > oriented. > > Respectfully Submitted > > > Original message: >> hello all, > >> well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, >> co about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one >> thing indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and >> forth from the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me >> when they were to help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought >> it seemed easy but, i have tried to do this successfully and, both >> times when i go on my own i get lost! > >> it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident >> traveler and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in >> this area for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when >> you somewhat know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family >> teach this to you or have some mobility done through a state agency like > dvr? >> what have any of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after >> you have moved there successfully and be confident in dioing this >> independtally? > >> also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i >> don't have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and >> replace the old ones easily and independtally? > >> thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! > > >> hugs, >> from amy >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% >> 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Jun 13 15:48:58 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 11:48:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions References: <212666187.3814921244866983554.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <5D4AB15DBB35494D80A201F1E63B6A68@Ashley> Hi Amy, I struggle with the same thing. When going to a new area it takes lots of repetition and practice to learn my way. As you travel look for landmarks. Maybe a GPS or tactile map of the area will help. You could have a reader or someone make you a tactile map using graphing tape or whatever works for you. I'd say have someone show you who you feel comfortable with. Try family first since they're more available. Mobility instructors have high caseloads and can't see you often. But if family doesn't work then yes go with a mobility instructor. I found mobility instructors to explain things better than friends or family. Good luck. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy Sabo" To: "NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:23 AM Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions > hello all, > > well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, co > about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one thing > indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and forth from > the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they were to > help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed easy but, i > have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i go on my own i > get lost! > > it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident traveler > and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in this area > for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when you somewhat > know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family teach this to you > or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? what have any > of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after you have moved > there successfully and be confident in dioing this independtally? > > also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i don't > have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and replace > the old ones easily and independtally? > > thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! > > > hugs, > from amy > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Sat Jun 13 17:15:20 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:15:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Adobie Reader 9 References: <004801c9eadd$18182f80$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <007701c9ec4a$889ee6e0$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Thank you. I didn't realize that. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Adobie Reader 9 > The most common cause of this is that the document contains an image of a > printed page, not the text itself. There are no settings that you can > change that will help this. All you can do is perform OCR optical > character recognition on the file itself, or on a printout of the file. > > Dave > > At 04:39 PM 6/11/2009, you wrote: >>Hi I have a pdf file I need to open but I wanted to know if there is a way >>to change the settings. Are there certain settings it should be set to? >>After it opens the document it then tells me the document is empty. Can >>someone please help me out asap? >>Thanks. >>Rania, >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>signature database 4149 (20090611) __________ >> >>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >>http://www.eset.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 13 19:03:59 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment Message-ID: <564410.28717.qm@web65708.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Jessica, Wouldn't it just be easier memorize button locations or  to Braille the machine's buttons, and then either memorize or create a cheatsheet as to what the buttons do? For example, on my cell phone, I may not be able to read where is says "power", but I know the power button is the topmost button on the left. Also, even if I cant read the cell phone's display screen, I know that if I push menu 3 times that I will then be at my contacts list, then if I push down 4 times my dad's phone number will be highlighted, then I can push send. I don't need to see the screen, or have it talk to me to figure it out. As to why they don't make talking exersize equipment, the reason it is not made is because it does not make buisness sence to do so. First, there are not enough blind or reading impaired persons to make it profitable and/orworthwhile to make such machines. Additionally, making a talking treadmill is not as easy as simply adding a speaker to the machine. It is quite likely that several parts of the manufacture and assembly plant procees would have to be drasticly changed. This could include expensive propositions such as requiring new equipment, and then having to hire and train new emploees to run the equipment. From the manufactures point of view, it is not worth the hassle of compkletely retooling the engeneering of the machine, and retooling the manufacturing process simply to make a run of 1,000 talking treadmills. You may be willing to pay a little more for a talking treadmill, but given everything I just said, you would not pay a little more for for a talking machine, you would pay alot more. Jim Message: 11 Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:10:15 -0500 From: "Jessica Kostiw" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] access to Work Out Equipment To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Hey, I apologize, I know this is an old thread.  I've been really busy and am just now getting to my E mail.  I have a question.  Does anyone know if NFB or ACB has ever tried to push for accessible exercise equipment?  It seems to me they would make a killing!  I don't know about you, but I would pay a little extra for a talking treadmill, or elliptical. Thoughts? Jessica Kostiw "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 13 19:32:15 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 12:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Digital converter boxes Message-ID: <789150.72864.qm@web65714.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hello, I use regular cable, so I don't personally have one of those boxes, but from what I understand, based on the local cable company's advertizements, is that you need to use the "channle scan" function located somewhere within your TV's menus. Hope this helps Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 14 00:22:53 2009 From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:22:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How do you read bookshare books online? Message-ID: _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From hope.paulos at maine.edu Sun Jun 14 01:20:38 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:20:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] How do you read bookshare books online? References: Message-ID: <2BD6F383798045C4AA3C9432B904E904@Hope> I believe you have to a have a daisy compatible player to read bookshare books. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert Yoo" To: Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:22 PM Subject: [nabs-l] How do you read bookshare books online? _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine.edu From brownbears at mchsi.com Sun Jun 14 01:39:55 2009 From: brownbears at mchsi.com (Miranda brown) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:39:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream Message-ID: Hi, I recently received a victor reader stream, and I have received my UAK from RFB&D and I have downloaded the files to the stream, but this is where I need some help. The stream is asking me for my 4 digit pin and it keeps telling me I am wrong. Miranda From cowboy0210 at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 01:52:05 2009 From: cowboy0210 at gmail.com (cowboy0210 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:52:05 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream Message-ID: <1875460043-1244944277-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-524837034-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> RFB&D should have provided the pin. It is also typically listed on the cds they send you as well. ------Original Message------ From: Miranda brown Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' ReplyTo: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream Sent: Jun 13, 2009 7:39 PM Hi, I recently received a victor reader stream, and I have received my UAK from RFB&D and I have downloaded the files to the stream, but this is where I need some help. The stream is asking me for my 4 digit pin and it keeps telling me I am wrong. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.com Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From brownbears at mchsi.com Sun Jun 14 02:10:04 2009 From: brownbears at mchsi.com (Miranda brown) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream In-Reply-To: <1875460043-1244944277-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-524837034-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1875460043-1244944277-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-524837034-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <9C073C65EF0748D1B353D4D97267D989@MIRANDA> They sent me one CD and it is not on it, in the steps it just says enter your 4 digit pin. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of cowboy0210 at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream RFB&D should have provided the pin. It is also typically listed on the cds they send you as well. ------Original Message------ From: Miranda brown Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' ReplyTo: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream Sent: Jun 13, 2009 7:39 PM Hi, I recently received a victor reader stream, and I have received my UAK from RFB&D and I have downloaded the files to the stream, but this is where I need some help. The stream is asking me for my 4 digit pin and it keeps telling me I am wrong. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.c om Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brownbears%40mchsi.c om No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.67/2174 - Release Date: 06/13/09 17:54:00 From cowboy0210 at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 02:13:23 2009 From: cowboy0210 at gmail.com (cowboy0210 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 02:13:23 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream In-Reply-To: <9C073C65EF0748D1B353D4D97267D989@MIRANDA> References: <1875460043-1244944277-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-524837034-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><9C073C65EF0748D1B353D4D97267D989@MIRANDA> Message-ID: <1296641883-1244945555-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1743744596-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Sorry I was referring to the audio book cds that you receive from them. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Miranda brown" Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:10:04 To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream They sent me one CD and it is not on it, in the steps it just says enter your 4 digit pin. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of cowboy0210 at gmail.com Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream RFB&D should have provided the pin. It is also typically listed on the cds they send you as well. ------Original Message------ From: Miranda brown Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' ReplyTo: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream Sent: Jun 13, 2009 7:39 PM Hi, I recently received a victor reader stream, and I have received my UAK from RFB&D and I have downloaded the files to the stream, but this is where I need some help. The stream is asking me for my 4 digit pin and it keeps telling me I am wrong. Miranda _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.c om Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brownbears%40mchsi.c om No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.67/2174 - Release Date: 06/13/09 17:54:00 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Jun 14 02:45:07 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:45:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream In-Reply-To: <1875460043-1244944277-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim .net-524837034-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1875460043-1244944277-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-524837034-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: The Pinn is 7323 for everybody. Dave At 08:52 PM 6/13/2009, you wrote: >RFB&D should have provided the pin. It is also typically listed on >the cds they send you as well. >------Original Message------ >From: Miranda brown >Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >ReplyTo: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream >Sent: Jun 13, 2009 7:39 PM > >Hi, > >I recently received a victor reader stream, and I have received my UAK from >RFB&D and I have downloaded the files to the stream, but this is where I >need some help. The stream is asking me for my 4 digit pin and it keeps >telling me I am wrong. > >Miranda >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.com > > >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4153 (20090613) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com From oceanrls at hotmail.com Mon Jun 15 03:25:03 2009 From: oceanrls at hotmail.com (Rachel Jacobs) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:25:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream References: <1875460043-1244944277-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-524837034-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <9C073C65EF0748D1B353D4D97267D989@MIRANDA> Message-ID: Try 7323 maybe? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miranda brown" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream > They sent me one CD and it is not on it, in the steps it just says enter > your 4 digit pin. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of cowboy0210 at gmail.com > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream > > RFB&D should have provided the pin. It is also typically listed on the cds > they send you as well. > ------Original Message------ > From: Miranda brown > Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > ReplyTo: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream > Sent: Jun 13, 2009 7:39 PM > > Hi, > > I recently received a victor reader stream, and I have received my UAK > from > RFB&D and I have downloaded the files to the stream, but this is where I > need some help. The stream is asking me for my 4 digit pin and it keeps > telling me I am wrong. > > Miranda > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.c > om > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brownbears%40mchsi.c > om > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.67/2174 - Release Date: 06/13/09 > 17:54:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oceanrls%40hotmail.com > From jmassay1 at cox.net Sun Jun 14 03:23:43 2009 From: jmassay1 at cox.net (JMassay) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:23:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Donating Blood/ Plasma Message-ID: FYI to all, Legally, you cannot be paid to donate blood. It was deemed that, like organs, it would lead to compromising situations. When you donate plasma to a plasma center, the plasma is actually used for medical purposes but not used specifically in hospital settings. It is used, in many cases, to manufacture treatments like Factor 8 which is used to treat hemophiliacs. When you donate blood with the American Red Cross or another blood bank, you are donating for emergencies and surgeries. Donating is one of the most philanthropic things you can do. Blood only lasts, shelf life wise, for 49 days. However, an individual can donate every 56 days. There is usually a huge shortage and donors don't donate enough. I used to work for the Oklahoma Blood Institute. The last I knew only about 5% of the total population donates. The hard facts are something like within a persons lifetime there is an 85% chance that they will need a blood transfusion of one type or another. So, please donate your blood and plasma, the stress on donate. Jeannie Massay From habnkid at aol.com Sun Jun 14 05:54:03 2009 From: habnkid at aol.com (Haben Girma) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:54:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <20090611231933.GB7645@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> <7C56F108-266E-427B-AEF1-0784F24F11DB@gmail.com> <20090611231933.GB7645@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4A34907B.7000302@aol.com> Joseph, I may have missed something in this conversation, but could you say again why you personally would prefer an unlocked iPhone? Do you do a lot of travel overseas? Or is that you prefer T Mobile, which I hear has pretty poor coverage in The States. Oh, and as for getting an unlocked iPhone...those things cost about $700, as you say. What if you went and bought an iPhone from AT&T with a 2 year contract, which would cost you $200, and then dishonored the contract, which would cost about $175. That totals to around $400 for a round-about unlocked iPhone, which would be faster and cheaper than buying an unlocked one from overseas. Haben T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Corbb, > > I'm sorry but this is not true. They have SIM cards and they can be > popped out just as easily. This is essentially required. > > The iPhone has two "computers" in it, one for the main phone, and one > that does nothing but talk to the radio hardware. While you can talk > to the one computer via the USB cable, the other one is accessible > only by software running on the first computer. We can pretty much do > lots of fun things to the main computer, but the "baseband" computer > is only accessible through a little tiny interface, and Apple's > removed most of the useful commands from that interface. You can't > read or write the baseband, you can only upload a new one that is a > newer version. The newer version is checked to prove that it has > Apple's cryptographic signature on it. > > That means a security exploit is needed either in the baseband or in > the baseband chip's boot loader. We have the former, but not for the > latest version of the baseband. But if your baseband version is newer > than that, you're out of luck because the 3G's boot loaders have not > been defeated. Well, one of the older ones has, and it has allowed > baseband downgrades, but that's it. The newest 3G phones are simply > locked, and there's not much we can do about it yet. > > Ultimately Apple will win this game or they'll run out of ideas to > stop us. The problem is we have to hundreds of man hours to find an > exploit we can sue and figure out how. Apple only needs to see what > we did and patch it so that we can't in the future. > > Given that the 3G and soon also the 3G S are available overseas > unlocked for any carrier and without contract, that's the easiest > solution. These phones are not intended to land in US customers' > hands, but there's not much Apple do about it since they're sold > unlocked so that businesspeople can travel and use their phone in > different countries by swapping SIMs. > > AT&T can't make them try to police that, but they can make them not > sell the unlocked versions in the US, as part of their exclusivity > deal. I'm pretty sure Verizon's still kicking themselves over that, > since the iPhone was reportedly almost theirs. They wanted to have > control over the user interface colors (red and white to match their > corporate image..) The report is that Apple said no, and so Verizon > walked out of the deal. > > The 3G S will be available internationally with a "factory" unlock, > just like the 3G is now. iTunes will check to see if it should > activate your device with the SIM in question. Apple's server will > recognize that your phone is in its "unlocked phone" database, and it > will be unlocked using a process protected by enough military grade > encryption that we haven't much chance of duplicating it. > > I have a suspicion that you won't see this iteration of the iPhone on > a network other than AT&T without going this route. Prepare to pay > about $700 for it, though, and beware that losers on eBay sometimes > call it "unlocked" if it has been jailbroken. There are also scammers > out there. It's a pretty big investment in time to find reputable > exporters, but it can be done. > > ...or you can live with AT&T, or you can wait until the exclusivity > runs out. That's long rumored to be 2010, with AT&T not giving Apple > any particularly great incentive for renewal. > > Joseph > > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:28:44PM -0400, Corbb O'Connor wrote: >> Clinton, >> >> The older iPhones were "unlockable" because they had a removable SIM >> card. Now, the iPhones (newer 3G and all 3GS models) do not use SIM >> cards -- they're like a Verizon phone. The SIM card is embedded. The >> one nice thing, though, is that it's absolutely foolish to steal a >> new iPhone, just like a Verizon; when the owner finds out, they send >> a kill signal and now your phone NEVER works again. >> >> Corbb >> >> On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:24 PM, clinton waterbury wrote: >> >> People have unlocked the older Iphones, why not this new one? >> On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: >> >>> Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone >>> will not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock it. >>> >>> Dezman > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com From invite+mmn4ysba at facebookmail.com Sun Jun 14 08:25:25 2009 From: invite+mmn4ysba at facebookmail.com (Scott Spaulding) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:25:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Check out my photos on Facebook Message-ID: Hi nabs-l at nfbnet.org, I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. Thanks, Scott To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=551676042&k=Z6GZ44R4R261UDLBXBZTYV&r nabs-l at nfbnet.org was invited to join Facebook by Scott Spaulding. If you do not wish to receive this type of email from Facebook in the future, please click on the link below to unsubscribe. http://www.facebook.com/o.php?k=457b3c&u=682905882&mid=9eb123G28b4511aG0G8 Facebook's offices are located at 1601 S. California Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. From davidb521 at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 14:31:01 2009 From: davidb521 at gmail.com (David Bouchard) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 09:31:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Recording Engineers Message-ID: <4a35099b.07035a0a.521b.ffffd53f@mx.google.com> Hi, I am interested to know if there are any blind recording/audio engineers. I am interested in possibly majoring in this field, because I really would enjoy recording and manipulating music and/or sound. However, I am slightly concerned with the accessibility of MAC audio software such as Pro Tools, etc. This week, I will be visiting Middle Tennesssee State and Belmont University to look at their programs, and if I actually am able to talk to a professor, it would be helpful to have some information about blind people who are in this field, or have recently worked as recording/ audio engineers before going up there. Any advice you might have would be greatly appreciated. David From kconstan at student.umass.edu Sun Jun 14 15:56:45 2009 From: kconstan at student.umass.edu (Kristina Constant) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:56:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream References: Message-ID: Hi It is the same pin that comes with the cds for the stream. I believe it is 7323 for everyone but could be wrong. Best to call rfbd and check. Thanks Kristina ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miranda brown" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 9:39 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Victor Reader Stream > Hi, > > I recently received a victor reader stream, and I have received my UAK > from > RFB&D and I have downloaded the files to the stream, but this is where I > need some help. The stream is asking me for my 4 digit pin and it keeps > telling me I am wrong. > > Miranda > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kconstan%40student.umass.edu > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 14 19:16:38 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 12:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Message-ID: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side,  on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the side of the cane Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum  that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole vault. After the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From pajohns1 at vt.edu Sun Jun 14 19:59:15 2009 From: pajohns1 at vt.edu (pajohns1 at vt.edu) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:59:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B41BDBBAE7C452EA2870530B8F3A4F8@useripvq7z5u3t> Jim, Being 6'5, 280 myself. Try a 69' or 72' Iowa style with a disc tip. Also try a pencil grip in addition to the fist grips, and I have no problems using my stick from the side, and it prevents me from getting gut pokes. Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "NABS mail list" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:16 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Hey all, The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side, on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the side of the cane Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole vault. After the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pajohns1%40vt.edu From fowlers at syix.com Sun Jun 14 20:35:58 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:35:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain In-Reply-To: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99D5E0DAA6674ABD8E24946B7A59567C@angelab> Jim, have you ever heard of a rainshine cane? They're straight canes made of solid fiber glass, not quite as heavy as the aluminum and rugged as hell. I've had mine for over two years, and I too am an aggressive walker. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 12:17 PM To: NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Hey all, The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side,  on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the side of the cane Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum  that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole vault. After the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sun Jun 14 20:37:51 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:37:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain In-Reply-To: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090614163751.7ez4zzim4g848s04@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Jim, Oh the belly poke ... bad times for sure. I find sliding the cane rather than tapping it helps to aleviate this problem, but it's not infalible either. Sometimes having the cane at a less steep angle can help, or maybe getting a bigger tip that won't stick in so many cracks. As for the grip, I believe the recommended grip is that of a fist around the cane with your pointer finger lying along the flat side. The flat side should be pointing skyward, so to speak. for arm pain, you might consider using more wrist action; moving the cane back and forth by bending your wrist from left to right rather than moving your entire forearm. HTH, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be > spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready > to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not > so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it > uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in > my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just > above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is > flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works > to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the > fist, with the thumb along the flat side,  on top of the cane. Grip > 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane > and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the > middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on > top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running > along the side of the cane > > Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand > extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel > that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I > find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it > would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had > with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck > in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to > the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is > that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 > foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum  > that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe > bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move > away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy > every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the > process of doing a pole vault. After > the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it > jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable > force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. > > I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went > flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have > considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, > for too long. > > Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From chriswright11 at verizon.net Sun Jun 14 20:42:29 2009 From: chriswright11 at verizon.net (Christopher Wright) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:42:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Recording Engineers References: <4a35099b.07035a0a.521b.ffffd53f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000601c9ed30$a409f960$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Hi, Not all blind engineers use Pro Tools. A number of us use a program called Sonar. Sonar runs on a Windows machine. Although most audio classes are tought using Pro Tools, many of the concepts taught can be applied in Sonar. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bouchard" To: "National Association Of Blind Students (NABS)" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 10:31 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Recording Engineers > Hi, > I am interested to know if there are any blind recording/audio engineers. I am interested in possibly majoring in this field, because I really would enjoy recording and manipulating music and/or sound. However, I am slightly concerned with the accessibility of MAC audio software such as Pro Tools, etc. This week, I will be visiting Middle Tennesssee State and Belmont University to look at their programs, and if I actually am able to talk to a professor, it would be helpful to have some information about blind people who are in this field, or have recently worked as recording/ audio engineers before going up there. Any advice you might have would be greatly appreciated. > David > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/chriswright11%40verizon.net From ginisd at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 14 20:55:41 2009 From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:55:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <412BC7515F154F55B5AB504742E5023D@windows4c0ed96> Hi Jim, As you probably know, it is a good idea to keep your wrist from getting overly mobile, I believe but am not sure. I have carpal tunnel syndrome, and wear a wrist splint sometimes when using my cane. The movement of the wrist gets a narrower range with a splint, but you can also just be mindful of using your forearm as well as your wrist and see if that pain is lessened. Pain from carpal tunnel syndrome can radiate, too. But since I am far from amedical professional, it is just a notion. Also, you may just be having a temporary reaction to using new muscle groups in a new way. Great reading the installments of your saga, Best of luck, Ginnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "NABS mail list" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 12:16 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Hey all, The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side, on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the side of the cane Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole vault. After the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.net From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 21:10:55 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:10:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090614163751.7ez4zzim4g848s04@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <9BBA4B7AD90740FFBE9F01182F19B841@Dezman> Jim, There's a more comfortable grip especially more suited to the NFB type canes with there round grips. It is called the open-palm technique and you could definitely try it with the cane you're using now. Basically, you hold the cane with all of your fingers rapped around it in a loose grip with your palm facing upward. You then move the cane by opening and closing your last three fingers while grasping it between your thumb and index fingers. In this way, there's little need to use your wrist or forearm. Best, Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Hi Jim, Oh the belly poke ... bad times for sure. I find sliding the cane rather than tapping it helps to aleviate this problem, but it's not infalible either. Sometimes having the cane at a less steep angle can help, or maybe getting a bigger tip that won't stick in so many cracks. As for the grip, I believe the recommended grip is that of a fist around the cane with your pointer finger lying along the flat side. The flat side should be pointing skyward, so to speak. for arm pain, you might consider using more wrist action; moving the cane back and forth by bending your wrist from left to right rather than moving your entire forearm. HTH, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be > spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to > call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad > that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it > uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my > hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above > the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and > I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the > pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb > along the flat side, on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed > out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the > cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb > along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer > finger is extended and running along the side of the cane > > Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending > out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may > be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand > drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I > wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in > front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in > the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the > poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the > speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with > mass, energy, and momentum that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put > some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid > that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or > otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was > in the process of doing a pole vault. After > the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 > feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets > the immovable object. I pity that cane. > > I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went > flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have > considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for > too long. > > Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Jun 14 21:14:43 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:14:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Recording Engineers In-Reply-To: <4a35099b.07035a0a.521b.ffffd53f@mx.google.com> References: <4a35099b.07035a0a.521b.ffffd53f@mx.google.com> Message-ID: There are any number of blind recording engineers. You might try the blind audio e-mail list, don't know the exact address, but googling might turn it up. There is also a blind recording guy in New York, who apparently has a series of podcasts about what he does. I believe I heard one on blindcooltech. Dave At 09:31 AM 6/14/2009, you wrote: >Hi, >I am interested to know if there are any blind recording/audio >engineers. I am interested in possibly majoring in this field, >because I really would enjoy recording and manipulating music and/or >sound. However, I am slightly concerned with the accessibility of >MAC audio software such as Pro Tools, etc. This week, I will be >visiting Middle Tennesssee State and Belmont University to look at >their programs, and if I actually am able to talk to a professor, it >would be helpful to have some information about blind people who are >in this field, or have recently worked as recording/ audio engineers >before going up there. Any advice you might have would be greatly appreciated. >David > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4153 (20090613) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com From beckyasabo at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 03:18:21 2009 From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (becky sabo) Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:18:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How do you read bookshare books online? In-Reply-To: <2BD6F383798045C4AA3C9432B904E904@Hope> References: <2BD6F383798045C4AA3C9432B904E904@Hope> Message-ID: <466C9C9059CA48E89A25E4159B9DD0DC@BECKYLAPTOP> Hello, You can play book share books on the victor stream. I no this because I have one and I listen to books from book share on it. Sincerely Becky sabo -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 7:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How do you read bookshare books online? I believe you have to a have a daisy compatible player to read bookshare books. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert Yoo" To: Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:22 PM Subject: [nabs-l] How do you read bookshare books online? _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine. edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.c om From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 15:33:05 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:33:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] New iPhone Model Now Accessible to the Blind In-Reply-To: <4A34907B.7000302@aol.com> References: <3af83dbb0906090739w3fb8616ape67e96a416feeb64@mail.gmail.com> <11AF185B-E51E-4DC4-8AD3-77D8DBB446FF@gmail.com> <7C56F108-266E-427B-AEF1-0784F24F11DB@gmail.com> <20090611231933.GB7645@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A34907B.7000302@aol.com> Message-ID: <20090615153304.GA34924@yumi.bluecherry.net> Haben, It's less that I like T-Mobile and more that I cannot stand AT&T. Also, AT&T will not unlock your phone at contract termination. They could do it--Apple gives them the means. But they won't do it. There is undoubtedly going to be a lawsuit against Apple and AT&T over this practice of refusing to unlock phones at end of contract period. There is a ready and waiting class of people whose two-year contracts will expire at the end of the month. Probably the best network in the United States is Verizon, but they're also the least approachable for using "standard" equipment that works in other countries because they use CDMA. Joseph On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:54:03PM -0700, Haben Girma wrote: > > Joseph, I may have missed something in this conversation, but could you > say again why you personally would prefer an unlocked iPhone? Do you do > a lot of travel overseas? Or is that you prefer T Mobile, which I hear > has pretty poor coverage in The States. Oh, and as for getting an > unlocked iPhone...those things cost about $700, as you say. What if you > went and bought an iPhone from AT&T with a 2 year contract, which would > cost you $200, and then dishonored the contract, which would cost about > $175. That totals to around $400 for a round-about unlocked iPhone, > which would be faster and cheaper than buying an unlocked one from > overseas. > > Haben > > T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Corbb, >> >> I'm sorry but this is not true. They have SIM cards and they can be >> popped out just as easily. This is essentially required. >> >> The iPhone has two "computers" in it, one for the main phone, and one >> that does nothing but talk to the radio hardware. While you can talk >> to the one computer via the USB cable, the other one is accessible >> only by software running on the first computer. We can pretty much do >> lots of fun things to the main computer, but the "baseband" computer >> is only accessible through a little tiny interface, and Apple's >> removed most of the useful commands from that interface. You can't >> read or write the baseband, you can only upload a new one that is a >> newer version. The newer version is checked to prove that it has >> Apple's cryptographic signature on it. >> >> That means a security exploit is needed either in the baseband or in >> the baseband chip's boot loader. We have the former, but not for the >> latest version of the baseband. But if your baseband version is newer >> than that, you're out of luck because the 3G's boot loaders have not >> been defeated. Well, one of the older ones has, and it has allowed >> baseband downgrades, but that's it. The newest 3G phones are simply >> locked, and there's not much we can do about it yet. >> >> Ultimately Apple will win this game or they'll run out of ideas to >> stop us. The problem is we have to hundreds of man hours to find an >> exploit we can sue and figure out how. Apple only needs to see what >> we did and patch it so that we can't in the future. >> >> Given that the 3G and soon also the 3G S are available overseas >> unlocked for any carrier and without contract, that's the easiest >> solution. These phones are not intended to land in US customers' >> hands, but there's not much Apple do about it since they're sold >> unlocked so that businesspeople can travel and use their phone in >> different countries by swapping SIMs. >> >> AT&T can't make them try to police that, but they can make them not >> sell the unlocked versions in the US, as part of their exclusivity >> deal. I'm pretty sure Verizon's still kicking themselves over that, >> since the iPhone was reportedly almost theirs. They wanted to have >> control over the user interface colors (red and white to match their >> corporate image..) The report is that Apple said no, and so Verizon >> walked out of the deal. >> >> The 3G S will be available internationally with a "factory" unlock, >> just like the 3G is now. iTunes will check to see if it should >> activate your device with the SIM in question. Apple's server will >> recognize that your phone is in its "unlocked phone" database, and it >> will be unlocked using a process protected by enough military grade >> encryption that we haven't much chance of duplicating it. >> >> I have a suspicion that you won't see this iteration of the iPhone on >> a network other than AT&T without going this route. Prepare to pay >> about $700 for it, though, and beware that losers on eBay sometimes >> call it "unlocked" if it has been jailbroken. There are also scammers >> out there. It's a pretty big investment in time to find reputable >> exporters, but it can be done. >> >> ...or you can live with AT&T, or you can wait until the exclusivity >> runs out. That's long rumored to be 2010, with AT&T not giving Apple >> any particularly great incentive for renewal. >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:28:44PM -0400, Corbb O'Connor wrote: >>> Clinton, >>> >>> The older iPhones were "unlockable" because they had a removable SIM >>> card. Now, the iPhones (newer 3G and all 3GS models) do not use SIM >>> cards -- they're like a Verizon phone. The SIM card is embedded. The >>> one nice thing, though, is that it's absolutely foolish to steal a >>> new iPhone, just like a Verizon; when the owner finds out, they send >>> a kill signal and now your phone NEVER works again. >>> >>> Corbb >>> >>> On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:24 PM, clinton waterbury wrote: >>> >>> People have unlocked the older Iphones, why not this new one? >>> On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:46 AM, Dezman Jackson wrote: >>> >>>> Unfortunately, for people who are not with AT&T, the new iPhone >>>> will not work on other networks. You won't even be able to unlock >>>> it. >>>> >>>> Dezman >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 15:47:39 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:47:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [Cabs-talk] Action Plan, Part 4 Message-ID: <4D27358A409C48E4B16FC85E587A7CE8@Rufus> The below is a response to my last installment. I share it here because it flushes out the last of my points, that of community service, and I hope other states may take from it and engineer their own community involvement strategies. Joe Orozco Subject: Re: [Cabs-talk] Action Plan, Part 4 This is sensational. Like Joe says so many great ideas and we only need to latch onto a few and work those as the snowball gains momentum you can add more wood to the fire. I know when Terra and I did the American cancer society's walkathon the second year we organized a team. Because of our rural setting we only had 5 participants 4 of whom showed. Four of the five were blind. We got some press coverage from the Antelope valley press and did the best we could but we didn't have nfb philosophy to the degree I would've liked. We raised money also through selling candy but because Terra and I were the only sellers we actually lost money because we couldn't move the candy fast enough. How awesome it could have been to have a student team raising a couple grandmaybe even being in the top ten! The Celebration of life the cancer society holds happens every year it happens in our case at the local community college. It's 24-hours long and the team is suposed to keep someone on the track at all times, obviously we didn't because we didn't have enough people but early on we did get help because an ROTC class volunteered to help us in whatever ways they could. We brought a tent a card table and we sold more of the candy but we also watched the bands walked about to the other booths etc. Just think how much literature a student division team could pass out we could put something together like the California association of blind students is happy to join the thousands of people across the country who today are collectively fighting for a cure. Perhaps we could connect with a form of cancer that causes blindness and use that as a lever to tie in the NFB and of course blind students who fight for a cure. Another posability that a local student chapter could perhaps launch is really good in light of the current ecconomic downturn. It is something usually operated by churches but it could easily be done by a chapter and what a switch the blind helping the sighted with their food needs. I'm talking about ANgel food ministries. The food is overall pretty good and for about $30 you can get about double in food value. They do distribute a doctrinal magazine but it's nonobtrusive in that they simply have someone ask would you like a magazine if they say yes you give them the publication if no you don't and if lots of people come to your food distribution your going to get good press coverage just because the uniqueness of blind people running it. And, if they sign your organization up for each box of food you distribute the organization gets a dollar. eed perhaps some sighted volunteers if you can get them. The food is set up on an assembly line and is distributed once a month for two hours. It can even be done in a parking lot. The truck brings the food on a saturday. Many people purchase online and those who don't have to contact you and pay ahead of time. Two days before the event someone calls and reminds them to come pick up their food. If they fail to show their money is forfeited and the food is donated to a local charity. Thinking as Joe has mentioned we have everything to gain a couple hundred dollars or more depending on how many people come, for a day's work. dialogue with the community showing blind people as competent by distrigbuting food and even if need be helping carry boxes to the people's cars. WHat do you think Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'Arizona Students'" ; "'California Students'" ; "'Colorado Center'" ; "'Colorado Students'" ; "'Florida Students'" ; "'Illinois Students'" ; "'Kansas Students'" ; "'Kentucky Students'" ; "'Louisiana Students'" ; "'Michigan'" ; "'Minnesota Students'" ; "'Missouri'" ; "'National'" ; "'Nebraska'" ; "'New Hampshire Students'" ; "'New Jersey Students'" ; "'North Carolina Students'" ; "'Ohio'" ; "'Pennsylvania'" ; "'Presidents'" ; "'TABS Students'" ; "'Tennessee Students'" ; "'Utah Students'" ; "'Virginia Students'" Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 2:02 PM Subject: [Cabs-talk] Action Plan, Part 4 > Dear all, > > 1. The Student Slate > > In my opinion, no job in the NABS board is more frustrating than the > editorship of the Student Slate. Thankfully, I have never had to wear > the hat of editor for the newsletter, but I have in some way assisted > with its revision and compilation for the past four years. You will > of course notice that in the past four years the publication of the > newsletter has not been consistent, and while it may be all too easy > to blame the editor, perhaps even the board as a whole, for not doing > their job, I assure you the blame is completely your own for not > writing an article when articles have been requested. > > It's ironic really. On the NABS-L list alone you might come across > twenty posts from a single individual telling you the same thing > twenty different times in the course of a single day. Some people > wonder where they find the time to post so much. I wonder why these > people haven't written articles? > This is not a rhetorical question. If the shoe fits, talk to Jennifer > Kennedy about how to submit something for publication. Unless things > have changed, it was my understanding she wanted to put out another > issue prior to convention. > > I offer two alternatives: > > A. Impose a moratorium on the Student Slate > > Every national organization should have a regular publication, but if > this cannot be done, put it to sleep temporarily. Instead, come out > with a monthly briefing. ... I know, you're thinking that if we > can't get our act together on a publication that is supposed to be > published four times a year, how in hell are we going to push one out > once a month? People assume a publication has to be long and brimming > with information. It does not have to be written that way. A simple > update on the state of the division would suffice. A word from the > president letting the membership know what the board has been doing > and what it is planning is sufficient. Think of it as a condensed > version of the Presidential Releases Dr. Maurer puts out for the > organization at large. Even a well-written, well-organized one-pager > would keep the masses happy, because it lets them know that their > board is doing something beneficial. Later, when the division picks > up steam and the Student Slate can be revived, feel free to bring it > back. > > B. Turn the Student Slate into a magazine format > > If the idea of putting the Student Slate is too much of a break from > tradition, consider changing the overall format of the publication. > Right now we have five or six different stories of people doing great > things in their lives. I think this is fine, but after a while we > must surely realize that there are only so many ways to be an awesome > blind person. As much as I enjoyed the Kernel book series, I was not > all that sad to see it end, because many of the stories are of the > type of material that can be found in the Braille Monitor. > > So, consider beginning special columns. You can have an interview > column that focuses on the accomplishments of a board member or > another leader in the NFB, or consider going out and interviewing > someone who is not in the organization but who is still doing > something great with themselves. I wouldn't mind reading an interview from Ginny Owens or David Paterson. > Now > you're probably thinking it would be too hard to interview those people. > Begin with their publicist, chief of staff, publisher, depending on > the nature of the person's profession. You could have a column on > emerging technology. You could have another column on fashion sense > and socializing. > Another column could focus on following our legislative progress. > Dear Abby? Remember, this is a student publication. The idea is not > without merit, especially if the inquiries are of the variety related > to blindness that some people are too shy to ask. > > Whether you go with the first suggestion or the second, you need not > feel as though you yourself have to be generating all the news. > Sometimes newsletters focus completely on the noise other people are > creating, but the news is validated because it is coming from you. > > If partnerships are established, you can elevate your publication by > incorporating the developments of those organizations. Using last > installment's examples, you could reprint an article from Sports and > Recreation's Competition Corner. You could help promote an event for > the parents. In either case, you can expect that the gesture will be > reciprocated, and any opportunity to expand your scope lends you the > perfect opportunity to further highlight the funders that will begin > to invest in your cause with all the popularity you slowly begin to > accumulate. > > 2. Awards > > Hard work should be recognized. Just as the state affiliate with the > greatest number of registered convention participants is given a > banner, the state student division with the greatest number of > registered students should receive a banner or certificate or trophy > or some other type of incentive. Maybe a contest should be arranged > to find the best looking banner? In either case, this begins to set > up a friendly competition among the state divisions to recruit and > bring the most number of members they can to convention. > Alternatively, recognize state divisions for simply doing a good job > regardless of the number of people they bring to the national > convention. Some states may not have the numbers but do wonderful > things to keep things happening in their states. > > I like the idea of the Blind Bargains web site recognizing companies > for their innovative solutions. Why could NABS not run a similar > voting session to recognize an exceptional DSS office, organization or > company doing great things on behalf of the blind population, > particularly students? Part of making a name for your organization > comes with building your own sense of prestige. You represent the > greatest number of blind students in the country. Now take this claim > and legitimize your position by handing out certificates to groups > deserving of your formal recognition. If you are successful at > creating a good image for your activities, other people will buy into > your elevated position and will want to be associated with what you > have to offer. > > And, where is the harm in recognizing rising stars amongst the student > ranks? Some of you are really out there busting your butts, making a > difference and generally making the rest of us look good. We should > know who you are, what you're doing and how we can learn from your > success. A student of the year award would not be, in my opinion, out > of line as a well-organized promotion and recruitment tool. > > Make these awards a part of the annual business meeting or winter banquet. > Create the right amount of hype around the occasion, and in no time > this new tradition could be manipulated to serve several important > functions. > > 3. Community Service > > Nothing builds character more profoundly than the satisfaction of > working hard to help others. In the NFB we pride ourselves in helping > other blind people achieve higher levels of independence and > self-sufficiency. I believe this should only be half of the equation. > The NFB philosophy is primarily built on the notion that blind people > can and should adjust to society rather than expect society to adjust > to the blind. Therefore, in my opinion, it is not enough to convince > a person that it can be respectable to be blind. I believe the step > beyond this persuasion is to show them how to succeed despite being > blind. After all, it makes very little sense to produce a fully > competent blind hero if said hero is not given a means to exercise his > or her newfound skills. To me, there is nothing more discouraging > than seeing an awesome blind person stay in the blindness field > because they feel that is the only field where they can continue to be > awesome. > > So, I think we should take our philosophy a step further. If we truly > believe that success is contingent on our adjustment to society, we > should make it our business to help society as much, if not more, than > we help our fellow blind people. To that end I believe every state > student division should democratically select an issue the membership > feels strongly about lending their support. These issues can be > poverty and homelessness, disaster prevention, civic action, health > and fitness, etc. > > Benefits: > > A. Visibility > > Blind people are all too often seen as the beneficiaries of social > services rather than the contributors. What better way to discourage > this general notion than the active participation of blind people in > social activities that help vulnerable populations. Earlier I said > that state student divisions should each select an issue, but I do not > think it impossible for NABS representatives to take time from > National Convention or Washington Seminar to prepare and distribute > food for the homeless at a local soup kitchen. The argument will be > made that there is already too much going on during these national > gatherings. I would respond with a reminder that most of the > activities going on during these events are geared at promoting > independence, and there will never be a better time to make a > statement of this independence amongst ourselves and to the public > than a concerted effort at putting independence into practice in the > company of blind people with such a wide array of skills. Maximum > impact will always be achieved away from the microphone rather than > behind it. > > Imagine yourselves participating in a walk-a-thon supporting the cause > of your choice with t-shirts sporting the name of your division. It's > a good public relations technique wrapped up in social integration. > You'll make new friends and therefore make yourself stronger as an > individual while you make NABS a stronger organization. > > You will not weaken your division because you are not making community > service the centerpiece of your operation. You are simply making > service the added bonus of belonging to the group and a convenient > avenue to practice what you preach. > > B. Job Readiness > > Blind people will have a more difficult task of finding a job if they > have never been given the opportunity to learn the basic skills that > are not taught in the classroom. Budgeting, filing, e-mail etiquette, > project management and so on could be learned by reading a number of > web sites and enrolling in a few specialized courses, but if you do > not have examples of how these skills have been utilized, what good are they in your resume? > Volunteer opportunities do not always involve rolling up your sleeves > and picking up garbage along the highway. You should do these > activities at least once anyway, because one of my more memorable > bonding experiences came about in a human chain as we worked to clear > out trash from underneath a church building. Yet, you could help an > organization build and maintain a web site. You could help them write > press releases. You could help a teacher at an after school program > tutor children. Whatever the case may be, pick a cause you and your > members would enjoy doing and go out and do it together. You will > grow closer as a group and learn to improve skills than can later be > used in the hunt for an awesome job. > > C. Partnerships > > In the last installment I wrote of the benefits of establishing > partnerships. In this context, think of the visibility another > organization could help bring you through your participation in their > activities. The Humane Society, the Red Cross, Boys and Girls Club, > Boy Scouts, the American Cancer Society are all prolific outfits that > could benefit from your help in exchange for publicity. Your > involvement in their activities could also help generate more material > for your fundraising efforts. Sponsors like to see what you're about, > and while seminars to encourage blind students to be great people are > great things for us, a prospective funder will be much more impressed > if you can show how your preaching is ultimately helping your local > communities. Find different ways to maximize your bang for their > buck, and perhaps even more importantly, find ways to have fun > exercising the NFB philosophy. Volunteer service really can be > exciting if you find several ways to make it work for you and the organization you represent. > > This concludes the list of changes I would have offered in my > hypothetical presidency. As I've said, these were geared for the > division at the national level, but I hope I gave you enough of a > glimpse of how they could be implemented at the state level with equal > efficiency. So far there are at least fifteen pages worth of ideas > and suggestions anyone could take and make happen both at the state > and national levels. Though the ideas may seem elaborate, they are > really nothing more than cumulative blocks that work in sync with one > another if properly coordinated. My overriding theme has been job > readiness and collaboration. Ultimately I believe the membership > should enjoy being a part of NABS and to a greater extent the NFB. > The board ought to be able to count on partnerships with other > divisions, organizations and companies to make the work of > implementing these plans possible. Other people could generate their > own themes and platforms and produce their own lists of objectives > with equal or better success if they only took the time to map it out. > > There would be a few other minor things I would like to see > implemented regardless of who assumes the presidency of the national student division. > Create a division song. Roll out bracelets or some other apparel. > Write a division pledge. Propose a division toast at the winter > banquet. In essence, think of little customs and traditions that can > be specific to NABS. Make NABS something cool to belong to, and keep > it balanced, because remember your audience can range from the > five-year-old Kindergartner to the fifty-year-old doctoral candidate. > > I understand there are people in the ranks who believe my proposal is > too much to swallow on account of us being volunteers. To these > individuals I say, "Come up with a better excuse." The small group of > volunteers who met to dream of and conceive the National Federation of > the Blind did not think their vision was too ambitious, and their > tasks in the thirty years following the organization's establishment > were far more complex and daunting than my little rambling proposal as > a whole. I do not believe the things I have outlined need to be > implemented next week. In fact, I believe it would take a couple > years to establish a good foundation, but the point is that you have > to start somewhere. You have to take a few risks. You have to allow > yourself to be held accountable. You have to learn to want and expect > more, and you have to allow your ideas to be challenged and changed by > the people you will trust to get it all done. > > But, we can cover these points in the next installment of my > meandering thoughts, where I offer my controversial views on student leadership. > > To be continued... > > Joe Orozco > > "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the > crowd."--Max Lucado > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4131 (20090604) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cabs-talk mailing list > Cabs-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/cabs-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Cabs-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/cabs-talk_nfbnet.org/its_mike%40 > sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ Cabs-talk mailing list Cabs-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/cabs-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Cabs-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/cabs-talk_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail. com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4139 (20090608) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4151 (20090612) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4155 (20090615) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4155 (20090615) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From Kim.Charlson at Perkins.org Mon Jun 15 19:50:58 2009 From: Kim.Charlson at Perkins.org (Kim.Charlson at Perkins.org) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:50:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [bana-announce] BANA to Evaluate NUBS Message-ID: PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Judith Dixon, Chairperson Braille Authority of North America PHONE: 1-202-707-0722 E-MAIL: jdix at loc.gov Braille Authority of North America To Evaluate Nemeth Uniform Braille System The Braille Authority of North America has announced that it is making plans for the evaluation of the recently completed Nemeth Uniform Braille System (NUBS). According to its developer, Dr. Abraham Nemeth, NUBS is an updated version of the Nemeth code, which has been in use since 1972. The new system has been in development for ten years and is capable of rendering both literary and technical texts. "BANA deliberates very carefully before making even small changes to braille," said Judith Dixon, BANA chairperson. "We want to ensure that braille readers have access to the same information as do their print-reading counterparts in this age in which the norms for printed material are evolving rapidly. However, it is essential that we understand the impact of any changes on readability, writeability, space considerations, familiarity to current braille readers, etc. The benefits of making any change must be shown to outweigh the drawbacks." The timeline and other details of the evaluation process are still being determined. The evaluation will involve the input of all stakeholders, and information on how those interested can provide input will be made available soon. To view the completed code, or to read documents explaining the code, visit http://www.braille2000.com/brl2000/nubs.htm The mission and purpose of the Braille Authority of North America are to assure literacy for tactile readers through the standardization of braille and/or tactile graphics. BANA promotes and facilitates the use, teaching and production of braille. It publishes rules, interprets and renders opinions pertaining to braille in all existing codes. It deals with codes now in existence or to be developed in the future, in collaboration with other countries using English braille. In exercising its function and authority, BANA considers the effects of its decisions on other existing braille codes and formats; the ease of production by various methods; and acceptability to readers. For additional resource information, visit www.brailleauthority.org. From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 20:15:31 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:15:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain In-Reply-To: <9BBA4B7AD90740FFBE9F01182F19B841@Dezman> References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><20090614163751.7ez4zzim4g848s04@webmail.utoronto.ca> <9BBA4B7AD90740FFBE9F01182F19B841@Dezman> Message-ID: <3FB08E88B074415297FA5237639C0EE3@sacomputer> Yep I use that methid and I can walk for about 5/7 miles that way. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dezman Jackson Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Jim, There's a more comfortable grip especially more suited to the NFB type canes with there round grips. It is called the open-palm technique and you could definitely try it with the cane you're using now. Basically, you hold the cane with all of your fingers rapped around it in a loose grip with your palm facing upward. You then move the cane by opening and closing your last three fingers while grasping it between your thumb and index fingers. In this way, there's little need to use your wrist or forearm. Best, Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Hi Jim, Oh the belly poke ... bad times for sure. I find sliding the cane rather than tapping it helps to aleviate this problem, but it's not infalible either. Sometimes having the cane at a less steep angle can help, or maybe getting a bigger tip that won't stick in so many cracks. As for the grip, I believe the recommended grip is that of a fist around the cane with your pointer finger lying along the flat side. The flat side should be pointing skyward, so to speak. for arm pain, you might consider using more wrist action; moving the cane back and forth by bending your wrist from left to right rather than moving your entire forearm. HTH, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be > spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to > call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad > that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it > uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my > hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above > the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and > I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the > pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb > along the flat side, on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed > out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the > cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb > along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer > finger is extended and running along the side of the cane > > Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending > out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may > be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand > drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I > wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in > front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in > the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the > poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the > speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with > mass, energy, and momentum that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put > some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid > that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or > otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was > in the process of doing a pole vault. After > the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 > feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets > the immovable object. I pity that cane. > > I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went > flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have > considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for > too long. > > Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From TEOlivero at nfb.org Mon Jun 15 20:14:01 2009 From: TEOlivero at nfb.org (Olivero, Treva) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:14:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Track Agenda for 2009 NFB Convention Message-ID: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6BF4F807@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> 2009 National Convention Youth Track Sponsored by the NFB Jernigan Institute Education Team Contact: Mary Jo Thorpe, Education Programs Manager Youth Track Agenda Friday, July 3 7:30 AM to 8:45 AM-2009 NFB Youth Track Registration (held in conjunction with the NOPBC Registration). Register for the NFB Convention Youth Track and pick up an agenda for the week's activities. Ambassador One Ballroom, Level 3 9:00 AM to10:15 AM-"The Future Is Ours...and Theirs"-National Organization of Parents of Blind Children morning program. Panels and speakers will be related to teens during this session. Ambassador One Ballroom, Level 3 10:30 AM to 12:00 PM-"All About Me" Come kick off this year's Youth Track with fun icebreakers and meet new friends. This will also be an exciting seminar where youth will have the opportunity to help shape the future of youth outreach for the NFB as they share their thoughts with staff members from the NFB Jernigan Institute. Cascade B Ballroom, Courtyard Marriott 2:00 PM to 3:30 PM-"Back and Biceps, Chest and Triceps" No, this isn't a beauty contest, but a great way to help you on the road to preparing for one. Maybe you've been a little intimidated about working out in the gym because of all the complicated equipment or just finding your way around. Or maybe you just want to learn how to be more active. Come get advice from other blind individuals on what works for them and may work for you in this hands-on session. Blind individuals with experience and expertise in this field will be on hand to help lead this session. Meet at the Cascade B Ballroom, Courtyard Marriott. We will be going to the hotel workout facilities. 3:30 PM to 5:00 PM-"Me and YouTube" Make your voice heard as you gather with other teens to help us share the message and philosophy of the organization in your own style. Groups of teens will be given a particular topic on which to present. Later selected videos will be put up on YouTube to help us share the message of the NFB with other blind youth. Bring your friends and your creativity! Cascade B Ballroom, Courtyard Marriott Saturday, July 4 6:00 PM - 10:00 PM-National Association of Blind Students 6:00 PM-Registration ($5.00) & Meet-and-Greet 7:00 PM-Meeting Happy 42nd birthday to NABS! Remember to bring your contact information on a Brailed index card for registration. Terri Rupp, President Ambassador Two Ballroom, Level 3 Sunday, July 5 11:45 AM to 12:45 PM-"The Division for Me" Meet and greet with NFB Divisions-Representatives from the various divisions of the organization will be present to discuss their division with you. Whether you are a rising author, aspiring lawyer, or just want to hang with others who enjoy similar hobbies or interests, this is a great way to find the division for you! Greco Room, Level 4 Monday, July 6 7:30 PM to 8:30 PM-"Me and the Gossip Girls" (ages 14-18) Girls-bring your questions and thoughts about makeup, dating, or just how to get more involved in your school. Greco Room, Level 4 7:30 PM to 8:30 PM-"Me and the Guys" (ages 14-18) Guys-talk about cars, dating, school, or how to nail that perfect job to make a little extra money. Renoir Room, Level 4 Tuesday, July 7 6:00 PM to 10:00 PM-"It Wasn't Me": Murder Mystery at the Club Play along as guests at a dance club while private investigators try to solve a murder. Early arrivers are assigned a character role to play for the evening. Latecomers won't be able to play along but are welcome to watch the game and enjoy the experience. Mackinac East Ballroom, Level 5 Treva E. Olivero Coordinator, Mentoring and Outreach Projects Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 1800 Johnson Street Baltimore, MD 21230 Phone: (410) 659-9314 ext. 2295 Fax: (410) 659-5129 Email: teolivero at nfb.org Visit: www.nfb.org/mentoring "The better part of one's life consists of friendships." ~ Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) ~ From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 20:23:16 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:23:16 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions In-Reply-To: <5D4AB15DBB35494D80A201F1E63B6A68@Ashley> References: <212666187.3814921244866983554.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <5D4AB15DBB35494D80A201F1E63B6A68@Ashley> Message-ID: Hi Amy and all, I know it's been mentioned before, but the first time you walk through a new route hat you're going to be using a lot (whether by yourself or with someone who knows the area), write things down. Even if they don't seem significant at the time, write down things you come across on the way (landmarks, texture/incline changes, etc.) as well as all the turns you make. You won't need the notes for long, but it'll help you remember the directions in the short term and get less turned around during your initial explorations. I used to think that I needed to get route help from a trained O&M instructor whenever I moved to a new place. However, I've realized that there's little an O&M instructor knows about your route that you can't learn from a friend or acquaintance who knows where they're going. In fact, sometimes it's harder to get good route info from an instructor or relative who doesn't frequently visit the area you're learning. Your best bet is to get with someone (blind or sighted) who's familiar with the area and, preferably, who walks the route a lot and can tell you about shortcuts, landmarks, etc. Arielle On 6/14/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Amy, > I struggle with the same thing. When going to a new area it takes lots of > repetition and practice to learn my way. As you travel look for landmarks. > Maybe a GPS or tactile map of the area will help. You could have a reader > or someone make you a tactile map using graphing tape or whatever works for > you. > I'd say have someone show you who you feel comfortable with. > Try family first since they're more available. Mobility instructors have > high caseloads and can't see you often. > But if family doesn't work then yes go with a mobility instructor. I found > mobility instructors to explain things better than friends or family. > > Good luck. > Ashley > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amy Sabo" > To: "NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS" > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:23 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions > > >> hello all, >> >> well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, co >> about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one thing >> indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and forth from >> >> the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they were to >> >> help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed easy but, i >> >> have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i go on my own i >> get lost! >> >> it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident traveler >> and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in this area >> for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when you somewhat >> know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family teach this to you >> >> or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? what have any >> of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after you have moved >> there successfully and be confident in dioing this independtally? >> >> also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i don't >> have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and replace >> the old ones easily and independtally? >> >> thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! >> >> >> hugs, >> from amy >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 15 20:40:24 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question Message-ID: <604205.47341.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I am wondering what cell phones are out there for low vision folks, and where to get them? I don't need anything that talks or has a Braille display. Essentially I just need a phone with large print buttons, and a large display screen that displays larger print. I prefer a land line, and I really don't use my cell phone all that often, mostly just on vacation or calling a cab from campus. As such, I don't have a cell phone contract, I use a pay as you go plan. Are there any ac cessable phones that can be used with a pay as you go plan? Does anyone have an old phone that would work for me that they no longer need or use, and that they would be willing to sell for cheap? As I said, I don't want or need anything fancy. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 21:46:56 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:46:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question In-Reply-To: <604205.47341.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <604205.47341.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <676EC2B12CCD488CBCA73EB3AD681F36@Jessica> Jim. I have an AT&T pay as you go plan and for as much as I actually use the cell phone it works for me. I have a Samsung flip phone. I'm sorry I don't remember what the total name of the phone is. Also, with the pay as you go phones you can pretty much buy them anywhere you can think of. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "NABS mail list" Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:40 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question > Hey all, > > I am wondering what cell phones are out there for low vision folks, and > where to get them? I don't need anything that talks or has a Braille > display. Essentially I just need a phone with large print buttons, and a > large display screen that displays larger print. > > I prefer a land line, and I really don't use my cell phone all that often, > mostly just on vacation or calling a cab from campus. As such, I don't > have a cell phone contract, I use a pay as you go plan. Are there any ac > cessable phones that can be used with a pay as you go plan? > > Does anyone have an old phone that would work for me that they no longer > need or use, and that they would be willing to sell for cheap? As I said, > I don't want or need anything fancy. > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From jp100 at earthlink.net Mon Jun 15 22:58:48 2009 From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:58:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Nokia N95 bundled with MobileSpeak ScreenReader on Sale In-Reply-To: <1FA787F6FF404238A4CDCA037813614D@dwrigh6> References: <1FA787F6FF404238A4CDCA037813614D@dwrigh6> Message-ID: <005901c9ee0c$d8402330$88c06990$@net> Dave, What phone providers will this phone work with? Jim -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wright Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: Illinois Association of Blind Students List; NFB of Illinois Mailing List Subject: [nabs-l] Nokia N95 bundled with MobileSpeak ScreenReader on Sale Good evening all, Handy Tech North America has 5 new in the box Nokia N95 GSM Symbian phones that we are bundling with Mobile Speak and leather case for only $650.00 for the entire package which is an awesome price. Follow the link below to take advantage of this very short lived online special price and don't hesitate to contact us at: 651-636-5184 or send e-mail to sales at handytech.us should you have any questions whatsoever. http://www.handytech.us/n95.html http://www.ha Best Regards: Dave Wright Work Phone: 651-636-5184 X803 Email: dwrigh6 at gmail.com WebPage: http://www.knfbreader.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.ne t From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 23:41:21 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:41:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions In-Reply-To: References: <212666187.3814921244866983554.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net><5D4AB15DBB35494D80A201F1E63B6A68@Ashley> Message-ID: <96079AF7343C474888C45E674674EB40@sacomputer> Actually my room mate suggested that I get a tape recorder and tape my own notes. I can't stap focused on everything at once, and that's how I ended up almost 2 miles from the lcb center. I write the directions down and forgot to take a look at them. Try the tape recorder thing and see if that works. Good luck. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 1:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] mobility questions Hi Amy and all, I know it's been mentioned before, but the first time you walk through a new route hat you're going to be using a lot (whether by yourself or with someone who knows the area), write things down. Even if they don't seem significant at the time, write down things you come across on the way (landmarks, texture/incline changes, etc.) as well as all the turns you make. You won't need the notes for long, but it'll help you remember the directions in the short term and get less turned around during your initial explorations. I used to think that I needed to get route help from a trained O&M instructor whenever I moved to a new place. However, I've realized that there's little an O&M instructor knows about your route that you can't learn from a friend or acquaintance who knows where they're going. In fact, sometimes it's harder to get good route info from an instructor or relative who doesn't frequently visit the area you're learning. Your best bet is to get with someone (blind or sighted) who's familiar with the area and, preferably, who walks the route a lot and can tell you about shortcuts, landmarks, etc. Arielle On 6/14/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Hi Amy, > I struggle with the same thing. When going to a new area it takes > lots of repetition and practice to learn my way. As you travel look for landmarks. > Maybe a GPS or tactile map of the area will help. You could have a > reader or someone make you a tactile map using graphing tape or > whatever works for you. > I'd say have someone show you who you feel comfortable with. > Try family first since they're more available. Mobility instructors > have high caseloads and can't see you often. > But if family doesn't work then yes go with a mobility instructor. I > found mobility instructors to explain things better than friends or family. > > Good luck. > Ashley > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amy Sabo" > To: "NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS" > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:23 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions > > >> hello all, >> >> well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, >> co about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one >> thing indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and >> forth from >> >> the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they >> were to >> >> help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed easy >> but, i >> >> have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i go on my >> own i get lost! >> >> it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident >> traveler and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived >> in this area for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do >> when you somewhat know the area but, you still don't? do you have a >> family teach this to you >> >> or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? what have >> any of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after you have >> moved there successfully and be confident in dioing this independtally? >> >> also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i >> don't have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and >> replace the old ones easily and independtally? >> >> thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! >> >> >> hugs, >> from amy >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >> 0earthlink.net >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm > ail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From habnkid at aol.com Tue Jun 16 00:12:16 2009 From: habnkid at aol.com (Haben Girma) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:12:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers Message-ID: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> Hello, I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? thanks, Haben From davidb521 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 01:30:15 2009 From: davidb521 at gmail.com (David Bouchard) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:30:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers Message-ID: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> Hi, I actually have an Index Braille embosser, and they are slightly temperamental. It is not a tractor-feed embosser, meaning that you place individual sheets of paper into a tray. Sometimes you need to be careful with the machine pulling in more than one sheet of paper, but I believe the hardware has improved in the past 8 years. The embosser is quick, but relatively noisy, especially when you stand next to it. However, you can get a rather expensive sound cabinet. You can email me off-list if you have more questions about it, although keep in mind that I am not an embosser expert by any means. Hope this helps, David -----Original Message----- From: Haben Girma Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 7:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers Hello, I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? thanks, Haben _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com From b.schulz at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 16 02:19:20 2009 From: b.schulz at sbcglobal.net (Bryan Schulz) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:19:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] 10 days left Message-ID: please send out. Hi, Various people on different lists asked about tours available in conjunction with the convention in Detroit this year. I have scheduled my air transportation in the evening so i can visit the Henry Ford museum after checking out of the hotel on 7/9. There are 10 days left for anyone to say they are interested in taking a tour of the Henry Ford Museum autos wing and the lady is willing to arrange permission for us to wear the cloth gloves in order to be able to touch the cars which is not normally allowed. The proposed time is approximately 12:00 noon to 1:30 with assistance/commentary from the guide and then how ever much time you would like to spend on your own after the contracted 90 minutes with the guide. The cost will be $12 at the door plus a fee ranging from $10 down to $6 for a group of 15 min to 25 max. to cover the fee for the guide. Let me know by june 24th if you want to be part of the group as i have to tell the lady yes or no on the 25th. Bryan Schulz The BEST Solution www.best-acts.com From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 16 02:30:55 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:30:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> References: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> Message-ID: The Tiger embossers should be quiet as they are not grossly mechanical, the way others are Nothing is going to be completely quiet though. Fast is a relative term, the fastest embossers are in the $30,000 to $100,000 range, and I don't think you can afford those. If you can I will be your tech guy! The index basic D has improved, and we have had good luck with them. Also, the Braille quality on the Tiger isn't its strongest point, so make sure you have seen it first. It is best at graphics, and graphics/text mixes. Dave At 07:12 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >Hello, > >I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to >emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are >among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. >Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares >to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since >it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large >print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index >embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and breaking. Is >that still the case in 2009? > >thanks, >Haben > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4157 (20090615) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com > > From jmatte28 at comcast.net Tue Jun 16 03:31:05 2009 From: jmatte28 at comcast.net (jonathan matte) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:31:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Anything Goes with Jon Matte debuts tomorrow on Radio 360 Message-ID: Hi there everyone! I need to start this announcement by letting everyone on this list know that this is purely informational email only so if you aren't interested in reading on feel free to discard at this point. My name is Jonathan Matte. Many of you have seen me post on and off over the past few months, but I'm posting this evening because I would like to make everyone out their aware of my new radio show. As I'm sure many of you know david Dunphy another member of this list recently created radio 360 an online station which he is the manager of and I'm proud to be emailing the list to talk briefly about my show and I'd like to also say that I'm extremely honored to be such a valuable member of the radio 360 staff. So if your interested in finding out more about my show format please read below for more information. It's my privilege to be emailing you to let you know that starting Tomorrow Tuesday June 16 from 6 to 9 A M. and on every Tuesday morning that I'll be bringing you Anything goes a show which will have multiple goals. Some weeks you may hear more of a musical line up from me while other weeks could be more talk radio orriented. The reason for the show title Anything Goes is because you never know from week to week what to expect or what sorts of surprises I may bring to the show. I not only see this show as being an entertainment venue for music and book reviews but also as a forum for talking about serious issues whether they be technology related, human interest, or as I said above just random debate and chatter. Like the various other radio 360 shows each which have there own distinct and unique differences the styles of music you'll generally hear on my show will tend to be more oldies/ easy listening orriented and not focus so heavily on top 40/ contemparary pop which you would more frequently hear on shows such as The DJD invasion hosted by my broadcasting colleague and our esteemed director of radio 360 David Dunphy. So whether your waking up with the kids, trying to get that last minute college paper typed up from a long night at the computer and endless cups of coffee and stimulants, getting ready to head off to work, or perhaps your taking high school summer courses Tune in to me Jon Matte and my show Anything goes from 6 A.M. to 9 A.M. every tuesday morning. To access the show at the appointed time listed above head on over to www.radio360.us and follow the options for listening there are a few different ways to access my show so if one doesn't work try all of them. Also I'll be taking any feedback, comments, or requests you may have. I can be reached via email at the address jmatte22 at comcast.net or by AOL Instant Messenger at the screen name tvvault82 So join Me Jon Matte tomorrow from 6 to 9 for music, banter, and any other surprises i may bring along to the show on Radio 360 where variety is the spice of life and pleasing our audience is everything. From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 05:01:03 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:01:03 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Message-ID: Hi all, Recently we’ve been talking about airline discrimination, which has historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don’t know how we perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory treatment (“The blind person can’t sit in the exit row”) or stereotypes (“Blind people are slow”). What I’ve always found fascinating, though, is that lack of knowledge—ignorance—doesn’t always translate into discrimination. In fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. But this doesn’t happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still “don’t get it”. This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who’s taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we’ve just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you can easily have one without the other. And it’s prejudice, not ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, alleviating prejudice isn’t that simple. It seems like much of the persistence of people’s prejudices comes from their emotional or “gut” reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it’s going to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his child’s blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about blindness. And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to instinctively “get it” more than my mother, for example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don’t? Is it something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple educating isn’t enough to address people’s deep-seated emotional reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with respect? It’s easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won’t. But for those who aren’t responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about blindness? I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it’s central to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be blind for ourselves and for others. Arielle From startrekcafe at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 07:05:55 2009 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:05:55 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] designing organizational documents using Excel 2007 Message-ID: <36D0C6303BDC41A78575825F2D4DAC25@marvinPC> Hi. noticed that in excel 2007, the chart wizrd has been removed. and only the chart types, and then insert a chart. would love a flow chart template for excel. where can i find this. or do i search on the office site and download it? or some one suggestted on another list, that i use merged cells, with ... or solid lines, and have it highlighted in different borders and colors. which way would be the easiest, so i does not take me more then an hour to do this. any ideas would be welcome. cheers Marvin. E-Mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com Msn: startrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 07:21:51 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 00:21:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the LCB. I've ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew times so I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so I can get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and there already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and we have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane to dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and bee in the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is helping me just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I said bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen in performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the steps and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I can dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you say and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I can dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open there eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I hope what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the morning. Hehaha! Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do google "life long dreams" in Nevada. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hi all, Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you can easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's going to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about blindness. And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is it something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple educating isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But for those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about blindness? I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be blind for ourselves and for others. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From graduate56 at juno.com Tue Jun 16 08:29:44 2009 From: graduate56 at juno.com (Melissa Green) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:29:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: Message-ID: <6FC33DA9AD9A41C79393B1835DEA4AD6@melissa> Arielle, You make some very good points. Melissa Green Limitations live only in our minds. But if we use our imaginations, our possibilities become limitless ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 11:01 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hi all, Recently we’ve been talking about airline discrimination, which has historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don’t know how we perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory treatment (“The blind person can’t sit in the exit row”) or stereotypes (“Blind people are slow”). What I’ve always found fascinating, though, is that lack of knowledge—ignorance—doesn’t always translate into discrimination. In fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. But this doesn’t happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still “don’t get it”. This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who’s taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we’ve just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you can easily have one without the other. And it’s prejudice, not ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, alleviating prejudice isn’t that simple. It seems like much of the persistence of people’s prejudices comes from their emotional or “gut” reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it’s going to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his child’s blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about blindness. And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to instinctively “get it” more than my mother, for example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don’t? Is it something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple educating isn’t enough to address people’s deep-seated emotional reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with respect? It’s easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won’t. But for those who aren’t responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about blindness? I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it’s central to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be blind for ourselves and for others. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com ____________________________________________________________ Get your dream car or truck. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTLa8uNfGZWKdV0KCBTRFnBSbroYmdBNp5SztUlOBFdmL70HI7T7qQ/ From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 10:33:07 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:33:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: Message-ID: <002b01c9ee6d$d7d33980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> I think it has to do with both the experience the person has or has not had with blind people as well as the personallity of the person. I have found some people to just except me for who I am and ask me questions like how I use the computer. Once I explain how it works they understand at least to me it seems that way. I really like it when sighted people whom have never been around a blind person are interested in learning what they can by asking me questions. That shows me that they are excepting of my blindness and how I do things. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hi all, Recently we’ve been talking about airline discrimination, which has historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don’t know how we perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory treatment (“The blind person can’t sit in the exit row”) or stereotypes (“Blind people are slow”). What I’ve always found fascinating, though, is that lack of knowledge—ignorance—doesn’t always translate into discrimination. In fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. But this doesn’t happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still “don’t get it”. This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who’s taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we’ve just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you can easily have one without the other. And it’s prejudice, not ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, alleviating prejudice isn’t that simple. It seems like much of the persistence of people’s prejudices comes from their emotional or “gut” reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it’s going to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his child’s blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about blindness. And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to instinctively “get it” more than my mother, for example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don’t? Is it something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple educating isn’t enough to address people’s deep-seated emotional reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with respect? It’s easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won’t. But for those who aren’t responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about blindness? I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it’s central to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be blind for ourselves and for others. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 12:59:39 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:59:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: <002b01c9ee6d$d7d33980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <002b01c9ee6d$d7d33980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906160559r26a387f1qaac7894cbdb65b6c@mail.gmail.com> I have probably the best friend you could ask for. Aaron is probabl the coolest sighted guy ever. We don't normally talk about blindness, it's something I don't wish to always talk about, but Aaron accepts that I use my computer differently than others. I guess being able to chat on FB and AIM makes me more of a person than if I don't. There are those who use MSN and Skype who can probably see my point. But a lot of people use FB. But one of the nicest things about Aaron is that he doesn't ever say I can't do something because I'm blind. I don't know if other sighted people in Florida really view us that way. That's just my two cents worth. Beth On 6/16/09, Rania wrote: > I think it has to do with both the experience the person has or has not had > with blind people as well as the personallity of the person. I have found > some people to just except me for who I am and ask me questions like how I > use the computer. Once I explain how it works they understand at least to me > it seems that way. I really like it when sighted people whom have never been > around a blind person are interested in learning what they can by asking me > questions. That shows me that they are excepting of my blindness and how I > do things. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Hi all, > > Recently we’ve been talking about airline discrimination, which has > historically served as a good representation of the kind of > second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with > members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in > describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as > incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their > assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It > is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled > community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don’t know how we > perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to > discriminatory treatment (“The blind person can’t sit in the exit > row”) or stereotypes (“Blind people are slow”). > > What I’ve always found fascinating, though, is that lack of > knowledge—ignorance—doesn’t always translate into discrimination. In > fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show > them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our > alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. > But this doesn’t happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, > there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still > “don’t get it”. This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor > who’s taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you > should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy > intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big > deal out of our blindness than do people we’ve just met, even if our > parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness > workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference > between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but > you can easily have one without the other. And it’s prejudice, not > ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. > > Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple > education, alleviating prejudice isn’t that simple. It seems like much > of the persistence of people’s prejudices comes from their emotional > or “gut” reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind > students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that > children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as > sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an > aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So > no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her > caseload who has partial sight, it’s going to be a struggle for the > teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his > child’s blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time > letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he > reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how > to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training > centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical > skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings > about blindness. > > And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people > who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and > treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or > education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even > though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling > about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never > met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to > instinctively “get it” more than my mother, for example, who besides > raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books > about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages > espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > > So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members > of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don’t? Is it > something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple > educating isn’t enough to address people’s deep-seated emotional > reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over > whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with > respect? It’s easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to > education about blindness and who won’t. But for those who aren’t > responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting > our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M > instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations > we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about > blindness? > > I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it’s central > to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it > means to be blind for ourselves and for others. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From troubleclark at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 13:42:20 2009 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:42:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: References: <26d2dfeb0906051413sf8c4278kc9149c3ad0071608@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I know of one other person that is going to the slam. Do you know of anybody else? On 6/7/09, Nathan Clark wrote: > I am going as a student again this summer. > Nathan > > On 6/5/09, Bill wrote: >> I will also be attending youth slam this summer as a mentor. I think if >> you >> haven't heard back from them yet, you might not have been selected. I >> got >> my paper work back in early may. >> >> Bill >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Lindsay Upschulte < >> lindsayupschulte at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> During the last week of July, I will be going to the Youth Slam in >> College Park, Maryland. I was wondering who else is going. If you >> are, please let me know. It would be interesting to get to know some >> of you. >> >> Thanks! >> -Linz >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > From cowboy0210 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 14:19:35 2009 From: cowboy0210 at gmail.com (cowboy0210 at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:19:35 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: References: <26d2dfeb0906051413sf8c4278kc9149c3ad0071608@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <788935130-1245161923-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-847756493-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I am going as a mentor. Kevin Ledford Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Nathan Clark Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:42:20 To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Youth Slam I know of one other person that is going to the slam. Do you know of anybody else? On 6/7/09, Nathan Clark wrote: > I am going as a student again this summer. > Nathan > > On 6/5/09, Bill wrote: >> I will also be attending youth slam this summer as a mentor. I think if >> you >> haven't heard back from them yet, you might not have been selected. I >> got >> my paper work back in early may. >> >> Bill >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Lindsay Upschulte < >> lindsayupschulte at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> During the last week of July, I will be going to the Youth Slam in >> College Park, Maryland. I was wondering who else is going. If you >> are, please let me know. It would be interesting to get to know some >> of you. >> >> Thanks! >> -Linz >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.com From davidb521 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:23:05 2009 From: davidb521 at gmail.com (David Bouchard) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:23:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers Message-ID: <4a37b8d5.07025a0a.75ac.1b91@mx.google.com> Hmm. When I emboss documents on the Index, I notice that the Braille quality on even is not so great when using Interpoint. Thoughts? David -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers The Tiger embossers should be quiet as they are not grossly mechanical, the way others are Nothing is going to be completely quiet though. Fast is a relative term, the fastest embossers are in the $30,000 to $100,000 range, and I don't think you can afford those. If you can I will be your tech guy! The index basic D has improved, and we have had good luck with them. Also, the Braille quality on the Tiger isn't its strongest point, so make sure you have seen it first. It is best at graphics, and graphics/text mixes. Dave At 07:12 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >Hello, > >I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to >emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are >among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. >Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares >to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since >it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large >print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index >embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and breaking. Is >that still the case in 2009? > >thanks, >Haben > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4157 (20090615) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 17:51:06 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:51:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: <002b01c9ee6d$d7d33980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <002b01c9ee6d$d7d33980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <2EC0B79BFA824A57BF057E0140234B0F@sacomputer> Oh Same here. I've ben on travel routs and have ben asked questions. I try and answer as best I can while paying attention to what I'm doing. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice I think it has to do with both the experience the person has or has not had with blind people as well as the personallity of the person. I have found some people to just except me for who I am and ask me questions like how I use the computer. Once I explain how it works they understand at least to me it seems that way. I really like it when sighted people whom have never been around a blind person are interested in learning what they can by asking me questions. That shows me that they are excepting of my blindness and how I do things. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hi all, Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you can easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's going to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about blindness. And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is it something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple educating isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But for those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about blindness? I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be blind for ourselves and for others. Arielle _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 17:51:06 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:51:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0906160559r26a387f1qaac7894cbdb65b6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <002b01c9ee6d$d7d33980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <4383d01d0906160559r26a387f1qaac7894cbdb65b6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Acutally I went to a place for a week where everyone treeted me and my blind friend like we were 5 year olds, efven when I did show them I could do it, What stopped them was when I jumped up, asked for help to the stage, got on the mic right away and did what I needed to do. I think they had a little more respect for me after that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 6:00 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice I have probably the best friend you could ask for. Aaron is probabl the coolest sighted guy ever. We don't normally talk about blindness, it's something I don't wish to always talk about, but Aaron accepts that I use my computer differently than others. I guess being able to chat on FB and AIM makes me more of a person than if I don't. There are those who use MSN and Skype who can probably see my point. But a lot of people use FB. But one of the nicest things about Aaron is that he doesn't ever say I can't do something because I'm blind. I don't know if other sighted people in Florida really view us that way. That's just my two cents worth. Beth On 6/16/09, Rania wrote: > I think it has to do with both the experience the person has or has > not had with blind people as well as the personallity of the person. I > have found some people to just except me for who I am and ask me > questions like how I use the computer. Once I explain how it works > they understand at least to me it seems that way. I really like it > when sighted people whom have never been around a blind person are > interested in learning what they can by asking me questions. That > shows me that they are excepting of my blindness and how I do things. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Hi all, > > Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has > historically served as a good representation of the kind of > second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with > members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in > describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as > incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their > assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It > is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled > community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we > perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to > discriminatory treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit > row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). > > What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of > knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In > fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show > them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our > alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. > But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, > there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still > "don't get it". This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor > who's taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you > should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy > intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big > deal out of our blindness than do people we've just met, even if our > parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness > workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference > between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but > you can easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not > ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. > > Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple > education, alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much > of the persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional > or "gut" reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind > students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that > children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as > sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an > aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So > no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her > caseload who has partial sight, it's going to be a struggle for the > teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his > child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time > letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he > reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how > to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training > centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical > skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings > about blindness. > > And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people > who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and > treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or > education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even > though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling > about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never > met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to > instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for example, who besides > raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books > about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages > espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > > So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members > of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is it > something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple > educating isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional > reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over > whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with > respect? It's easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to > education about blindness and who won't. But for those who aren't > responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting > our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M > instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations > we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about > blindness? > > I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central > to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it > means to be blind for ourselves and for others. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04% > 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloos > e%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Jun 16 18:16:59 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:16:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Message-ID: <20090616181659.19708.98408@web1.serotek.com> Listers: I think there are just some people out there who get that different doesn't mean deficit regardless of the difference we're talking about. There are, for example, some men who really understand that women aren't so fundamentally different from them. There are White people who get it that ethnic differences among themselves and between themselves and other races doesn't automatically spell deficient. If anything, these are differences to be shared and cellebrated while discovering our common ground. And yes, that goes for blindness, too. I have a few sighted friends who just naturally get it, and many more who just plain don't. there's no real way to predict who will get it and who won't, but I'm always fascinated to discover who gets it and who doesn't. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I have probably the best friend you could ask for. Aaron is probabl > the coolest sighted guy ever. We don't normally talk about blindness, > it's something I don't wish to always talk about, but Aaron accepts > that I use my computer differently than others. I guess being able to > chat on FB and AIM makes me more of a person than if I don't. There > are those who use MSN and Skype who can probably see my point. But a > lot of people use FB. But one of the nicest things about Aaron is > that he doesn't ever say I can't do something because I'm blind. I > don't know if other sighted people in Florida really view us that way. > That's just my two cents worth. > Beth > On 6/16/09, Rania wrote: >> I think it has to do with both the experience the person has or has not had >> with blind people as well as the personallity of the person. I have found >> some people to just except me for who I am and ask me questions like how I >> use the computer. Once I explain how it works they understand at least to me >> it seems that way. I really like it when sighted people whom have never been >> around a blind person are interested in learning what they can by asking me >> questions. That shows me that they are excepting of my blindness and how I >> do things. >> Rania, >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> Hi all, >> Recently we’ve been talking about airline discrimination, which has >> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >> second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with >> members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in >> describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as >> incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their >> assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It >> is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled >> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don’t know how we >> perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to >> discriminatory treatment (“The blind person can’t sit in the exit >> row”) or stereotypes (“Blind people are slow”). >> What I’ve always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >> knowledge—ignorance—doesn’t always translate into discrimination. In >> fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show >> them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our >> alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >> But this doesn’t happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >> there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still >> “don’t get it”. This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor >> who’s taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you >> should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy >> intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big >> deal out of our blindness than do people we’ve just met, even if our >> parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness >> workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference >> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >> you can easily have one without the other. And it’s prejudice, not >> ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. >> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >> education, alleviating prejudice isn’t that simple. It seems like much >> of the persistence of people’s prejudices comes from their emotional >> or “gut” reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind >> students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that >> children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as >> sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an >> aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So >> no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her >> caseload who has partial sight, it’s going to be a struggle for the >> teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his >> child’s blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time >> letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he >> reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how >> to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training >> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >> skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings >> about blindness. >> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >> who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >> treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or >> education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even >> though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling >> about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never >> met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to >> instinctively “get it” more than my mother, for example, who besides >> raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books >> about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages >> espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). >> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members >> of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don’t? Is it >> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >> educating isn’t enough to address people’s deep-seated emotional >> reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over >> whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with >> respect? It’s easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to >> education about blindness and who won’t. But for those who aren’t >> responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting >> our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M >> instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations >> we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about >> blindness? >> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it’s central >> to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it >> means to be blind for ourselves and for others. >> Arielle >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dlambert at aristotle.net Tue Jun 16 19:11:03 2009 From: dlambert at aristotle.net (dlambert at aristotle.net) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:11:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education Message-ID: Hi everyone: Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, especially since I haven't been in two years. But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research later on. In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an opportunity to provide input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an education in a public school system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you ended up in? Looking back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but just wanted to get a feel for the range of experiences people may have. Thanks Denna Lambert From monika_r_r at hotmail.com Tue Jun 16 19:27:27 2009 From: monika_r_r at hotmail.com (Monika Reinholz) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:27:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle and all, As for me, I was raised not to be prejudiced in my family. It (being prejudiced) only ends up making things worse in my opinion. As Melissa and Marty could tell you, I had a ton of questions about blindness and what its like to be blind. I must admit, many of the answers did amaze me...like how a blind person can play certain sports, for one...but I took it in stride. Who best to ask about that type of stuff than the person who does it. I remember my first time they took me to play goalball. Having no clue what that was, I asked the basic questions and it sounded fun. I went and watched them play so I could get a better understanding of how its played, and after the first period, I wanted to get in there and play myself. It may well possibly be a personality and experience thing. I've always been and always will be a very accepting type of person. I believe in the "what comes around, goes around" theory. I've also had many exerpiences with the disabled community before I started working with Melissa and Marty, from working at Goodwill and volunteering with Martin Luther Homes as a summer day camp counselor. I just wish there more of us (non-prejudiced people) in the world. You do make some great points as well. Even though education is a good way to go about it with many, it doesn't always work. Most of the time, and this is unfortunate, you have to actually do something to show others that "hey, I may be blind or disabled, but I can do this myself". Now, this is just an idea, but maybe it can start something wonderful... why not do more active community stuff. Look into getting a booth space at community events, or just be out there in force when large community happenings are going on. The summer is full of community things, and with Independance day coming up many areas will have some sort of fireworks display the community goes to see. Yes, even though many will be at the National Convention during that weekend, there are probably many who will not be for some reason or another. There is also Labor Day to look into as well. Well, I'll stop there for now. I do hope we can start something awesome with the ideas we can generate amongst us. Monika > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:01:03 +1000 > From: arielle71 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > Hi all, > > Recently we’ve been talking about airline discrimination, which has > historically served as a good representation of the kind of > second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with > members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in > describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as > incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their > assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It > is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled > community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don’t know how we > perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to > discriminatory treatment (“The blind person can’t sit in the exit > row”) or stereotypes (“Blind people are slow”). > > What I’ve always found fascinating, though, is that lack of > knowledge—ignorance—doesn’t always translate into discrimination. In > fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show > them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our > alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. > But this doesn’t happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, > there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still > “don’t get it”. This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor > who’s taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you > should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy > intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big > deal out of our blindness than do people we’ve just met, even if our > parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness > workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference > between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but > you can easily have one without the other. And it’s prejudice, not > ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. > > Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple > education, alleviating prejudice isn’t that simple. It seems like much > of the persistence of people’s prejudices comes from their emotional > or “gut” reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind > students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that > children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as > sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an > aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So > no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her > caseload who has partial sight, it’s going to be a struggle for the > teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his > child’s blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time > letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he > reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how > to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training > centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical > skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings > about blindness. > > And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people > who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and > treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or > education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even > though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling > about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never > met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to > instinctively “get it” more than my mother, for example, who besides > raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books > about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages > espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > > So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members > of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don’t? Is it > something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple > educating isn’t enough to address people’s deep-seated emotional > reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over > whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with > respect? It’s easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to > education about blindness and who won’t. But for those who aren’t > responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting > our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M > instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations > we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about > blindness? > > I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it’s central > to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it > means to be blind for ourselves and for others. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40hotmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 20:00:12 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:00:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <736ECC88A9244481B2D82E60A082C152@sacomputer> I'm going ot be in a parade float this year actually aned then I'll hopefully be dancing if I get my ruteen down. I love to vollenteer like that as it helps all realise that I can do more then computer related stuff. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Monika Reinholz Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:27 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Arielle and all, As for me, I was raised not to be prejudiced in my family. It (being prejudiced) only ends up making things worse in my opinion. As Melissa and Marty could tell you, I had a ton of questions about blindness and what its like to be blind. I must admit, many of the answers did amaze me...like how a blind person can play certain sports, for one...but I took it in stride. Who best to ask about that type of stuff than the person who does it. I remember my first time they took me to play goalball. Having no clue what that was, I asked the basic questions and it sounded fun. I went and watched them play so I could get a better understanding of how its played, and after the first period, I wanted to get in there and play myself. It may well possibly be a personality and experience thing. I've always been and always will be a very accepting type of person. I believe in the "what comes around, goes around" theory. I've also had many exerpiences with the disabled community before I started working with Melissa and Marty, from working at Goodwill and volunteering with Martin Luther Homes as a summer day camp counselor. I just wish there more of us (non-prejudiced people) in the world. You do make some great points as well. Even though education is a good way to go about it with many, it doesn't always work. Most of the time, and this is unfortunate, you have to actually do something to show others that "hey, I may be blind or disabled, but I can do this myself". Now, this is just an idea, but maybe it can start something wonderful... why not do more active community stuff. Look into getting a booth space at community events, or just be out there in force when large community happenings are going on. The summer is full of community things, and with Independance day coming up many areas will have some sort of fireworks display the community goes to see. Yes, even though many will be at the National Convention during that weekend, there are probably many who will not be for some reason or another. There is also Labor Day to look into as well. Well, I'll stop there for now. I do hope we can start something awesome with the ideas we can generate amongst us. Monika > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:01:03 +1000 > From: arielle71 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > Hi all, > > Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has > historically served as a good representation of the kind of > second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with > members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in > describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as > incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their > assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It > is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled > community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we > perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to > discriminatory treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit > row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). > > What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of > knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In > fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show > them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our > alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. > But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, > there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still > "don't get it". This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor > who's taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you > should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy > intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big > deal out of our blindness than do people we've just met, even if our > parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness > workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference > between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but > you can easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not > ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. > > Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple > education, alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much > of the persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional > or "gut" reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind > students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that > children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as > sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an > aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So > no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her > caseload who has partial sight, it's going to be a struggle for the > teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his > child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time > letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he > reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how > to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training > centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical > skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings > about blindness. > > And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people > who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and > treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or > education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even > though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling > about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never > met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to > instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for example, who besides > raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books > about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages > espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > > So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members > of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is it > something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple > educating isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional > reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over > whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with > respect? It's easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to > education about blindness and who won't. But for those who aren't > responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting > our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M > instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations > we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about > blindness? > > I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central > to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it > means to be blind for ourselves and for others. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/monika_r_r%40h > otmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 16 20:12:28 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Cane travel Message-ID: <618700.73711.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I found out the hard way that good cane travel skills work, and bad cane travel skills hurt. I began by making a rookiee mistake; I needed to walk an "L" shaped route, and instead of walking the "L" shape, I decided to zig-zag my route, and I subsequently got myself lost. Once I got lost, I took off my glasses, and I stopped trusting/listening to my cane; instead I was relying on my vision, and not too much later, I tripped over something and took a header off of something metal (I got a little lump, but otherwise I am fine.) After I cracked myself in the head, I became gunshy and started using "baby steps" with my cane. I eventually got over it and resumed full strides. I guess that is just the first of many cane travel-related injuries I will sustain in my lifetime, so I better get used to it. On the positive side, there were several streaches where I got in the groove; my cane rythm was smooth, like I had been doing it for years. But just as quickly as I got into those grooves, I fell right back out of rythm. I think alot of that rythm came from somewhat mastering the open palm technique/grip. I am right handed, and essentially what I did was make a grip where my index finger was running down the side of the cane, and most of the cane's weight was being supported by my middle finger which served as the pivot point for the cane. Basicly, I would use my index finger to push the cane to the left, then I would use my palm to push it back to the right. Since the cane was essentially free to pivot on my middle finger, both my palm and my index finger served as "springboards" which propelled the cane in whichever direction I wanted it to go. Because I wasn't exactly gripping the cane, this grip was more comfortable and somewhat less painful. However, this grip also felt less secure (like the cane could easily be ripped from my hand by an obstacle), and I also feel like I got less feedback from the cane using this grip than I did when I had the cane in a death grio. Its kinda funny, a while ago, a friend and I were talking about Dr. Jernigian's speech "The Nature of Independnece",  and I basicly made a comment that essentially said "Big deal, a grown man (Jernigian) can walk to the barber shop by himself." Now, I am essentially doing the same thing,  I am bragging about being able to walk to and from school on my own. In once sense, I feel childish for bragging about something as simple as walking to class, but at the same time I am proud of myself for having done it, Thats all for now, peace, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From aguimaraes at nbp.org Tue Jun 16 20:32:51 2009 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:32:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer> Message-ID: Hi all,, We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something out of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not tolerate discrimination at any time. When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or do you think your actions were appropriate? Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the LCB. > I've > ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew times > so > I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so I > can > get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and there > already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and we > have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane to > dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and bee in > the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is helping me > just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I said > bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen in > performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the > steps > and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I can > dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you say > and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I can > dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open > there > eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I hope > what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the > morning. > Hehaha! > > Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do > google "life long dreams" in Nevada. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > Hi all, > > Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has > historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class > treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the > public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of > some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight > in > their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave > them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within > the > disabled > community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we > perform > everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory > treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit > row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). > > What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of > knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact > many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we > use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative > techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. > But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there > are > those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". > This > includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for > thirty > years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your > way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own > parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've > just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to > blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a > difference > between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you > can > easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, that > actually causes us trouble. > > Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, > alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the > persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" > reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know > all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn > Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on > some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a > stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is > trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's > going > to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The > parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to > have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter > how > much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out > how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training > centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, > but > also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about > blindness. > > And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who > display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us > normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our > parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to > spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who > treat > us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and > yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for > example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of > the > leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the > messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > > So what do you guys think makes the difference between those > members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is > it > something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple > educating > isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what can > we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the > street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to tell > who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But for > those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still > protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators > like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what > accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their > misconceptions about blindness? > > I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to > how > we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be > blind for ourselves and for others. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org > From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 20:30:39 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:30:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane travel In-Reply-To: <618700.73711.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <618700.73711.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72F911BCABF14FBABBCE3231BAE51B05@sacomputer> The open palm grip can feel a bit unsecure but once you get used to it you will never go back to anything else. Take care. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:12 PM To: NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Cane travel Hey all, I found out the hard way that good cane travel skills work, and bad cane travel skills hurt. I began by making a rookiee mistake; I needed to walk an "L" shaped route, and instead of walking the "L" shape, I decided to zig-zag my route, and I subsequently got myself lost. Once I got lost, I took off my glasses, and I stopped trusting/listening to my cane; instead I was relying on my vision, and not too much later, I tripped over something and took a header off of something metal (I got a little lump, but otherwise I am fine.) After I cracked myself in the head, I became gunshy and started using "baby steps" with my cane. I eventually got over it and resumed full strides. I guess that is just the first of many cane travel-related injuries I will sustain in my lifetime, so I better get used to it. On the positive side, there were several streaches where I got in the groove; my cane rythm was smooth, like I had been doing it for years. But just as quickly as I got into those grooves, I fell right back out of rythm. I think alot of that rythm came from somewhat mastering the open palm technique/grip. I am right handed, and essentially what I did was make a grip where my index finger was running down the side of the cane, and most of the cane's weight was being supported by my middle finger which served as the pivot point for the cane. Basicly, I would use my index finger to push the cane to the left, then I would use my palm to push it back to the right. Since the cane was essentially free to pivot on my middle finger, both my palm and my index finger served as "springboards" which propelled the cane in whichever direction I wanted it to go. Because I wasn't exactly gripping the cane, this grip was more comfortable and somewhat less painful. However, this grip also felt less secure (like the cane could easily be ripped from my hand by an obstacle), and I also feel like I got less feedback from the cane using this grip than I did when I had the cane in a death grio. Its kinda funny, a while ago, a friend and I were talking about Dr. Jernigian's speech "The Nature of Independnece",  and I basicly made a comment that essentially said "Big deal, a grown man (Jernigian) can walk to the barber shop by himself." Now, I am essentially doing the same thing,  I am bragging about being able to walk to and from school on my own. In once sense, I feel childish for bragging about something as simple as walking to class, but at the same time I am proud of myself for having done it, Thats all for now, peace, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 20:51:06 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 13:51:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer> Message-ID: <12A24A7E15C54C2FBB73234230DF4678@sacomputer> That's why I do stuff, 1 because I do enjoy it,and, 2, so people can see me out there. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Guimaraes Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hi all,, We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something out of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not tolerate discrimination at any time. When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or do you think your actions were appropriate? Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the LCB. > I've > ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew times > so > I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so I > can > get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and there > already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and we > have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane to > dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and bee in > the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is helping me > just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I said > bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen in > performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the > steps > and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I can > dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you say > and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I can > dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open > there > eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I hope > what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the > morning. > Hehaha! > > Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do > google "life long dreams" in Nevada. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > Hi all, > > Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has > historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class > treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the > public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of > some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight > in > their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave > them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within > the > disabled > community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we > perform > everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory > treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit > row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). > > What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of > knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact > many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we > use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative > techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. > But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there > are > those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". > This > includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for > thirty > years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your > way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own > parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've > just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to > blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a > difference > between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you > can > easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, that > actually causes us trouble. > > Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, > alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the > persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" > reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know > all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn > Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on > some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a > stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is > trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's > going > to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The > parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to > have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter > how > much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out > how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training > centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, > but > also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about > blindness. > > And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who > display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us > normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our > parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to > spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who > treat > us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and > yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for > example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of > the > leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the > messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > > So what do you guys think makes the difference between those > members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is > it > something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple > educating > isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what can > we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the > street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to tell > who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But for > those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still > protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators > like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what > accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their > misconceptions about blindness? > > I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to > how > we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be > blind for ourselves and for others. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 21:25:59 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:25:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane travel References: <618700.73711.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <72F911BCABF14FBABBCE3231BAE51B05@sacomputer> Message-ID: <9E18B3BE97B84F30B485983DD18581FC@Dezman> Jim, Also, the feedback and sensitivity you get depends on how the cane is engineered. Based on experience, many cane users have learned that a lighter cane made of a material like fiberglass or carbon fiber tend to give maximum feedback and also are more flexible, having more give when the cane gets caught in cracks and what not. Also, the metal disc-like tip has proven to contribute significantly to the information you get from the cane including echolocation. Best, Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane travel The open palm grip can feel a bit unsecure but once you get used to it you will never go back to anything else. Take care. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:12 PM To: NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Cane travel Hey all, I found out the hard way that good cane travel skills work, and bad cane travel skills hurt. I began by making a rookiee mistake; I needed to walk an "L" shaped route, and instead of walking the "L" shape, I decided to zig-zag my route, and I subsequently got myself lost. Once I got lost, I took off my glasses, and I stopped trusting/listening to my cane; instead I was relying on my vision, and not too much later, I tripped over something and took a header off of something metal (I got a little lump, but otherwise I am fine.) After I cracked myself in the head, I became gunshy and started using "baby steps" with my cane. I eventually got over it and resumed full strides. I guess that is just the first of many cane travel-related injuries I will sustain in my lifetime, so I better get used to it. On the positive side, there were several streaches where I got in the groove; my cane rythm was smooth, like I had been doing it for years. But just as quickly as I got into those grooves, I fell right back out of rythm. I think alot of that rythm came from somewhat mastering the open palm technique/grip. I am right handed, and essentially what I did was make a grip where my index finger was running down the side of the cane, and most of the cane's weight was being supported by my middle finger which served as the pivot point for the cane. Basicly, I would use my index finger to push the cane to the left, then I would use my palm to push it back to the right. Since the cane was essentially free to pivot on my middle finger, both my palm and my index finger served as "springboards" which propelled the cane in whichever direction I wanted it to go. Because I wasn't exactly gripping the cane, this grip was more comfortable and somewhat less painful. However, this grip also felt less secure (like the cane could easily be ripped from my hand by an obstacle), and I also feel like I got less feedback from the cane using this grip than I did when I had the cane in a death grio. Its kinda funny, a while ago, a friend and I were talking about Dr. Jernigian's speech "The Nature of Independnece", and I basicly made a comment that essentially said "Big deal, a grown man (Jernigian) can walk to the barber shop by himself." Now, I am essentially doing the same thing, I am bragging about being able to walk to and from school on my own. In once sense, I feel childish for bragging about something as simple as walking to class, but at the same time I am proud of myself for having done it, Thats all for now, peace, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 21:42:27 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:42:27 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions In-Reply-To: <96079AF7343C474888C45E674674EB40@sacomputer> References: <212666187.3814921244866983554.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <5D4AB15DBB35494D80A201F1E63B6A68@Ashley> <96079AF7343C474888C45E674674EB40@sacomputer> Message-ID: Hi all, Tape-recording is fine for some people, but there are a couple advantages to writing with a slate and stylus, Braille notetaker, etc. First, it's easier to remember info when you actively engage with it by writing it down rather than just listening to it. Second and perhaps more important, at least for me, it's much easier to move around through my notes and get to the part I need quickly when it’s written down than when it’s on tape. Arielle On 6/16/09, Sarah Alawami wrote: > Actually my room mate suggested that I get a tape recorder and tape my own > notes. I can't stap focused on everything at once, and that's how I ended up > almost 2 miles from the lcb center. I write the directions down and forgot > to take a look at them. Try the tape recorder thing and see if that works. > > Good luck. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Arielle Silverman > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 1:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] mobility questions > > Hi Amy and all, > > I know it's been mentioned before, but the first time you walk through a new > route hat you're going to be using a lot (whether by yourself or with > someone who knows the area), write things down. Even if they don't seem > significant at the time, write down things you come across on the way > (landmarks, texture/incline changes, etc.) as well as all the turns you > make. You won't need the notes for long, but it'll help you remember the > directions in the short term and get less turned around during your initial > explorations. > > I used to think that I needed to get route help from a trained O&M > instructor whenever I moved to a new place. However, I've realized that > there's little an O&M instructor knows about your route that you can't learn > from a friend or acquaintance who knows where they're going. In fact, > sometimes it's harder to get good route info from an instructor or relative > who doesn't frequently visit the area you're learning. Your best bet is to > get with someone (blind or sighted) who's familiar with the area and, > preferably, who walks the route a lot and can tell you about shortcuts, > landmarks, etc. > > Arielle > > On 6/14/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Hi Amy, >> I struggle with the same thing. When going to a new area it takes >> lots of repetition and practice to learn my way. As you travel look for > landmarks. >> Maybe a GPS or tactile map of the area will help. You could have a >> reader or someone make you a tactile map using graphing tape or >> whatever works for you. >> I'd say have someone show you who you feel comfortable with. >> Try family first since they're more available. Mobility instructors >> have high caseloads and can't see you often. >> But if family doesn't work then yes go with a mobility instructor. I >> found mobility instructors to explain things better than friends or > family. >> >> Good luck. >> Ashley >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Amy Sabo" >> To: "NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS" >> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:23 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions >> >> >>> hello all, >>> >>> well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, >>> co about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one >>> thing indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and >>> forth from >>> >>> the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they >>> were to >>> >>> help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed easy >>> but, i >>> >>> have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i go on my >>> own i get lost! >>> >>> it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident >>> traveler and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived >>> in this area for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do >>> when you somewhat know the area but, you still don't? do you have a >>> family teach this to you >>> >>> or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? what have >>> any of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after you have >>> moved there successfully and be confident in dioing this independtally? >>> >>> also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i >>> don't have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and >>> replace the old ones easily and independtally? >>> >>> thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! >>> >>> >>> hugs, >>> from amy >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%4 >>> 0earthlink.net >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gm >> ail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Jun 16 21:49:24 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:49:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> References: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20090616174924.b76r2hvw8444ocss@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi there, I have a Basic-D embosser which conveniently prints on both sides of a Braille page. It's fairly fast, but loud unfortunately. Quoting David Bouchard : > Hi, > I actually have an Index Braille embosser, and they are slightly > temperamental. It is not a tractor-feed embosser, meaning that you > place individual sheets of paper into a tray. Sometimes you need to > be careful with the machine pulling in more than one sheet of paper, > but I believe the hardware has improved in the past 8 years. The > embosser is quick, but relatively noisy, especially when you stand > next to it. However, you can get a rather expensive sound cabinet. > You can email me off-list if you have more questions about it, > although keep in mind that I am not an embosser expert by any means. > Hope this helps, > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: Haben Girma > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 7:12 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers > > > Hello, > > I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to emboss > textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are among the > quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. Does anyone > know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares to the Juliet > Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since it is very > portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, > a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental > and prone to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? > > thanks, > Haben > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From braille at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 16 22:05:02 2009 From: braille at sbcglobal.net (Mary Donahue) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:05:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education References: Message-ID: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> Hello Denna and listers, When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If my family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go to public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. My mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school district would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for the Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and social skills. At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. Mary Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > Hi everyone: > > Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, > especially since I haven't > been in two years. > > But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research > later on. > > In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an > opportunity to provide > input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an > education in a public school > system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you > ended up in? Looking > back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? > > Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but > just wanted to get a feel > for the range of experiences people may have. > > Thanks > > Denna Lambert > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Tue Jun 16 23:12:05 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:12:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education References: Message-ID: <00b401c9eed7$de0049f0$0701a8c0@Serene> I went to a public school and am really glad I did! I didn't get a choice about it cuz, in NJ, there isn't a legitimit school for the blind. (There's actually a religiously affiliated school that's for kids with multiple disabilities, although the school authorities would never say that. They're a bunch of lyers!)I was involved in concert band and the pep band in high school and made 2 great long-lasting friends! I don't think I would've changed anything. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:11 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > Hi everyone: > > Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, > especially since I haven't > been in two years. > > But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research > later on. > > In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an > opportunity to provide > input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an > education in a public school > system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you > ended up in? Looking > back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? > > Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but > just wanted to get a feel > for the range of experiences people may have. > > Thanks > > Denna Lambert > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 23:22:59 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:22:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4383d01d0906161622p182ae6e3jcc7926bc80540b58@mail.gmail.com> I personally have been topublic schools, and the kids were kind of picky and mean. But the teachers were very supportive. In private school, I learnd a lot of good values, but didn't have any friends. Also, at first, services had to be provided at the public school only. So I almost didn't get the services I needed at a small private school. The state-run school for the blind is probably not a good setting because, according to one of my friends and from past experience, there are some crazies that hang around there. Plus the sexism and ageism was prominent when I was young. So that's my two cents worth. Beth On 6/16/09, dlambert at aristotle.net wrote: > Hi everyone: > > Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, > especially since I haven't > been in two years. > > But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research > later on. > > In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an > opportunity to provide > input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an > education in a public school > system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you > ended up in? Looking > back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? > > Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but just > wanted to get a feel > for the range of experiences people may have. > > Thanks > > Denna Lambert > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 23:25:58 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:25:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: <20090616181659.19708.98408@web1.serotek.com> References: <20090616181659.19708.98408@web1.serotek.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906161625k4bc9380fgc20395b758a5ebe@mail.gmail.com> I see that. Good points, Sarah and Jedi. Beth On 6/16/09, Jedi wrote: > Listers: > > I think there are just some people out there who get that different > doesn't mean deficit regardless of the difference we're talking about. > There are, for example, some men who really understand that women > aren't so fundamentally different from them. There are White people who > get it that ethnic differences among themselves and between themselves > and other races doesn't automatically spell deficient. If anything, > these are differences to be shared and cellebrated while discovering > our common ground. And yes, that goes for blindness, too. > > I have a few sighted friends who just naturally get it, and many more > who just plain don't. there's no real way to predict who will get it > and who won't, but I'm always fascinated to discover who gets it and > who doesn't. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > Original message: >> I have probably the best friend you could ask for. Aaron is probabl >> the coolest sighted guy ever. We don't normally talk about blindness, >> it's something I don't wish to always talk about, but Aaron accepts >> that I use my computer differently than others. I guess being able to >> chat on FB and AIM makes me more of a person than if I don't. There >> are those who use MSN and Skype who can probably see my point. But a >> lot of people use FB. But one of the nicest things about Aaron is >> that he doesn't ever say I can't do something because I'm blind. I >> don't know if other sighted people in Florida really view us that way. >> That's just my two cents worth. >> Beth > >> On 6/16/09, Rania wrote: >>> I think it has to do with both the experience the person has or has not >>> had >>> with blind people as well as the personallity of the person. I have found >>> some people to just except me for who I am and ask me questions like how >>> I >>> use the computer. Once I explain how it works they understand at least to >>> me >>> it seems that way. I really like it when sighted people whom have never >>> been >>> around a blind person are interested in learning what they can by asking >>> me >>> questions. That shows me that they are excepting of my blindness and how >>> I >>> do things. >>> Rania, >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >>> Hi all, > >>> Recently we’ve been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>> second-class treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with >>> members of the public. I think Jedi made some good points in >>> describing the tendency of some sighted people to judge us as >>> incompetent based on the role of sight in their own lives and their >>> assumption that losing their sight would leave them incapacitated. It >>> is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the disabled >>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don’t know how we >>> perform everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to >>> discriminatory treatment (“The blind person can’t sit in the exit >>> row”) or stereotypes (“Blind people are slow”). > >>> What I’ve always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>> knowledge—ignorance—doesn’t always translate into discrimination. In >>> fact many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show >>> them how we use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our >>> alternative techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>> But this doesn’t happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>> there are those who know all the facts about blindness and still >>> “don’t get it”. This includes, for instance, the mobility instructor >>> who’s taught O&M for thirty years but who still insists that you >>> should walk three blocks out of your way rather than cross a busy >>> intersection. Many of us find that our own parents make more of a big >>> deal out of our blindness than do people we’ve just met, even if our >>> parents have met competent blind people or been to blindness >>> workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference >>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>> you can easily have one without the other. And it’s prejudice, not >>> ignorance, that actually causes us trouble. > >>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>> education, alleviating prejudice isn’t that simple. It seems like much >>> of the persistence of people’s prejudices comes from their emotional >>> or “gut” reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind >>> students may know all the facts about Braille, including the fact that >>> children who learn Braille while young can read just as fast as >>> sighted children. And yet, on some gut level the teacher feels an >>> aversion to Braille, seeing it as a stigma or a symbol of weakness. So >>> no matter how well this teacher is trained, if she gets a kid in her >>> caseload who has partial sight, it’s going to be a struggle for the >>> teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The parent who finds his >>> child’s blindness frightening, likewise, is going to have a hard time >>> letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how much he >>> reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out how >>> to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training >>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>> skills, but also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings >>> about blindness. > >>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>> who display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>> treat us normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or >>> education on our parts. We all know sighted people like this, even >>> though we often tend to spend most of our mental energy grumbling >>> about the sighted people who treat us strangely. My boyfriend never >>> met a single blind person before me, and yet in some ways seems to >>> instinctively “get it” more than my mother, for example, who besides >>> raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the leading books >>> about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the messages >>> espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > >>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members >>> of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don’t? Is it >>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>> educating isn’t enough to address people’s deep-seated emotional >>> reactions, what can we do about it? Do we have any control over >>> whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us or treats us with >>> respect? It’s easy enough for us to tell who will be responsive to >>> education about blindness and who won’t. But for those who aren’t >>> responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting >>> our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M >>> instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations >>> we get but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about >>> blindness? > >>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it’s central >>> to how we act as an organization and how we can really change what it >>> means to be blind for ourselves and for others. > >>> Arielle > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 16 23:33:16 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] prejudice vs ignorance Message-ID: <691075.76762.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Arielle, It seems to me that ignorance is the willingness or desire to be uninformed, and prejudice is a fearful reaction to the unknown, thus ignorance and prejudice are related and somewhat self-perpetuating. The reason I consider ignorance to be a condition of the willing is because the Internet makes it so that anyone can learn anything about any topic they choose to learn about. But at the same time, why should someone learn about something that is irrelevant to them? For example, in my case, prior to affiliating myself with the NFB and MAB,  I have never in my life known or interacted with a blind person, therefore I had no reason to learn about them.  Additionally, sometimes ignorance is fueled by the fact that people simply don't know what they don't know. For example, before I went blind, I did not know that there were different types and degrees of blindness.  I did not know that not all blind people are totally blind.  I know for me, my ignorance of blindness was definitely a conscious choice that was based on fear. I knew I was going blind, but I felt that somehow denial and ignorance were better than truth and knowledge. If a blind individual is afraid and unwilling to learn about a condition that affects his daily life, how can we expect sighted individuals to care about, or to understand blindness? Perhaps another relevant question here would be, "If blindness is irrelevant to an individual, should we care if that individual is ignorant about blindness?" Personally, I see no reason why every person in the U.S. needs to know about blindness. Before you all get pissed at me (again), let me explain. If a sighted person lives in a community where there are no blind people, who cares what that sighted person or the community as a whole thinks or knows? If there are no blind people in the community, it doesn't matter what the community knows, or thinks about blindness. Once a blind person moves into the community, then there is a reason for the community to learn about blindness, and it is the job of the blind individual to actively educate people, but it is also the job of the blind person to act in a way that demonstrates confidence and ability. While I would not consider myself prejudice against blind people or any other group, I have held anti-blind positions in the past (related to hybrid cars and Kindle DX lawsuits). Those anti-blind positions stemmed from my ignorance of,  and apathy towards blindness issues that were not related to, or applicable to me. The problem was, I considered myself a sighted person, and as such,  I had no reason to care about or to consider the needs of blind individuals or the blind community.  For me, at that point, I did not view NFB actions as serving my needs or the interests of the blind community, instead, I saw NFB actions as a  threat to the interest of the sighted community, thus, by extension, NFB actions were a threat to my interest.  How do issues that pit the needs and interests of the blind community against the needs and interest of the sighted community lead to prejudice against blind people? Things that threaten the status quo create fear, both fear of change, and fear of the unknown. Naturally, that fear extends not only to the issue that threatens the status quo, but that fear also extends to the individuals who are, or are perceived to be causing the change.  In this case prejudice and fear are not aimed at the person as an individual, but rather that prejudice stems from what that person represents. I got to go, my O/M instructor should be here any minute. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Jun 16 23:37:36 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:37:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane travel In-Reply-To: <618700.73711.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <618700.73711.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090616193736.m5rfzptzmssgok04@webmail.utoronto.ca> Jim, You should be proud of yourself. Especially considering your initial hesitations about blindness and anything that came with it. You're doing great. Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > I found out the hard way that good cane travel skills work, and bad > cane travel skills hurt. I began by making a rookiee mistake; I > needed to walk an "L" shaped route, and instead of walking the "L" > shape, I decided to zig-zag my route, and I subsequently got myself > lost. Once I got lost, I took off my glasses, and I stopped > trusting/listening to my cane; instead I was relying on my vision, > and not too much later, I tripped over something and took a header > off of something metal (I got a little lump, but otherwise I am > fine.) After I cracked myself in the head, I became gunshy and > started using "baby steps" with my cane. I eventually got over it > and resumed full strides. I guess that is just the first of many > cane travel-related injuries I will sustain in my lifetime, so I > better get used to it. > > On the positive side, there were several streaches where I got in > the groove; my cane rythm was smooth, like I had been doing it for > years. But just as quickly as I got into those grooves, I fell right > back out of rythm. > > I think alot of that rythm came from somewhat mastering the open > palm technique/grip. I am right handed, and essentially what I did > was make a grip where my index finger was running down the side of > the cane, and most of the cane's weight was being supported by my > middle finger which served as the pivot point for the cane. Basicly, > I would use my index finger to push the cane to the left, then I > would use my palm to push it back to the right. Since the cane was > essentially free to pivot on my middle finger, both my palm and my > index finger served as "springboards" which propelled the cane in > whichever direction I wanted it to go. Because I wasn't exactly > gripping the cane, this grip was more comfortable and somewhat less > painful. However, this grip also felt less secure (like the cane > could easily be ripped from my hand by an obstacle), and I also feel > like I got less feedback from the cane using this grip than I did > when I had the cane in a death grio. > > Its kinda funny, a while ago, a friend and I were talking about Dr. > Jernigian's speech "The Nature of Independnece",  and I basicly made > a comment that essentially said "Big deal, a grown man (Jernigian) > can walk to the barber shop by himself." Now, I am essentially doing > the same thing,  I am bragging about being able to walk to and from > school on my own. In once sense, I feel childish for bragging about > something as simple as walking to class, but at the same time I am > proud of myself for having done it, > > Thats all for now, > peace, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From hope.paulos at maine.edu Wed Jun 17 01:31:40 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:31:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <002b01c9ee6d$d7d33980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> <2EC0B79BFA824A57BF057E0140234B0F@sacomputer> Message-ID: <443945EB2B3345D582861F0E270C55F7@Hope> I agree. A lot of the people around here are curious (especially about the guide dog). I'll tell you, though, at least for me, it's difficult for me to talk to them and to pay attention to the cues of my dog. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:51 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Oh Same here. I've ben on travel routs and have ben asked questions. I > try > and answer as best I can while paying attention to what I'm doing. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Rania > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:33 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > I think it has to do with both the experience the person has or has not > had > with blind people as well as the personallity of the person. I have found > some people to just except me for who I am and ask me questions like how I > use the computer. Once I explain how it works they understand at least to > me > it seems that way. I really like it when sighted people whom have never > been > around a blind person are interested in learning what they can by asking > me > questions. That shows me that they are excepting of my blindness and how I > do things. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Hi all, > > Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has > historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class > treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the > public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of > some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight > in > their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave > them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within > the > disabled > community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we > perform > everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory > treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit > row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). > > What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of > knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact > many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we > use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative > techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. > But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there > are > those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". > This > includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for > thirty > years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your > way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own > parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've > just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to > blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a > difference > between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you > can > easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, that > actually causes us trouble. > > Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, > alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the > persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" > reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know > all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn > Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on > some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a > stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is > trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's > going > to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The > parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to > have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter > how > much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out > how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training > centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, > but > also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about > blindness. > > And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who > display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us > normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our > parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to > spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who > treat > us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and > yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for > example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of > the > leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the > messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). > > So what do you guys think makes the difference between those members of > the > sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is it something > about > their personalities or experiences? And if simple educating isn't enough > to > address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what can we do about it? > Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the street grabs us > or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to tell who will be > responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But for those who > aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still protecting > our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators like O&M > instructors, who have power over what we learn or what accommodations we > get > but whose judgments are affected by their misconceptions about blindness? > > I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to > how > we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be > blind for ourselves and for others. > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine.edu From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 17 02:05:06 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:05:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> References: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: That is an Everest, and the feed stuff can be unreliable. The Basic D is a tractor-fed embosser and more reliable. Dave At 08:30 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >Hi, >I actually have an Index Braille embosser, and they are slightly >temperamental. It is not a tractor-feed embosser, meaning that you >place individual sheets of paper into a tray. Sometimes you need to >be careful with the machine pulling in more than one sheet of paper, >but I believe the hardware has improved in the past 8 years. The >embosser is quick, but relatively noisy, especially when you stand >next to it. However, you can get a rather expensive sound cabinet. >You can email me off-list if you have more questions about it, >although keep in mind that I am not an embosser expert by any means. >Hope this helps, >David > >-----Original Message----- >From: Haben Girma >Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 7:12 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers > > >Hello, > >I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to emboss >textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are among the >quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. Does anyone >know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares to the Juliet >Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since it is very >portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, >a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental >and prone to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? > >thanks, >Haben > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 17 02:07:39 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:07:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <4a37b8d5.07025a0a.75ac.1b91@mx.google.com> References: <4a37b8d5.07025a0a.75ac.1b91@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You indicated in another message that you had an Everest. It was unfortunately never a great machine. Dave At 10:23 AM 6/16/2009, you wrote: >Hmm. When I emboss documents on the Index, I notice that the Braille >quality on even is not so great when using Interpoint. Thoughts? >David > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Andrews >Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:30 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers > >The Tiger embossers should be quiet as they are not grossly >mechanical, the way others are Nothing is going to be completely >quiet though. > >Fast is a relative term, the fastest embossers are in the $30,000 to >$100,000 range, and I don't think you can afford those. If you can I >will be your tech guy! > >The index basic D has improved, and we have had good luck with them. > >Also, the Braille quality on the Tiger isn't its strongest point, so >make sure you have seen it first. It is best at graphics, and >graphics/text mixes. > >Dave > >At 07:12 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: > > >Hello, > > > >I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to > >emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are > >among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. > >Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares > >to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since > >it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large > >print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index > >embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and breaking. Is > >that still the case in 2009? > > > >thanks, > >Haben > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > > > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > >signature database 4157 (20090615) __________ > > > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > > >http://www.eset.com > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Jun 17 02:17:03 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:17:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] prejudice vs ignorance Message-ID: <20090617021703.30414.31903@web3.serotek.com> Jim, First of all, congratulations on your explanation of prejudice versus ignorance and how they're related. Your message was eloquent and well-thought. I've been doing a lot of thinking about my role as an educator to the sighted community. I've also been thinking a lot about my role as an ambassador and how those relate together. Jim, I think you're right. the internet allows anyone to be educated on just about anything. The NFB is usually in the top ten Google results for just about any topic related to blindness these days, so our message is spreading. Tons of NFB members have their own personal web sites espousing our philosophy, and the NFB itself has reached further into the ether than it's ever done before. So Jim is right: anyone who is ignorant about blindness is doing so willingly. With the speed of technology, there isn't really a community in the United states, or even the world, that doesn't know something about blindness even if it has no blind citizens. But truthfully, i'm not convinced that there aren't any communities out there who haven't been touched by vision loss of some kind. That said, Jim made the observation that it's a blind person's job to educate. Lots of people in the NFB feel its our job to be something like an ambassador for the blindness community. To some extent, I believe that's true. We have to set a good example when it counts, and we can't cry equal rights without taking equal responsibility. At the same time, how many of you (myself included) wished that you could just be human beings and hell with educating? I think that sometimes, we forget that we are human beings and that it's okay to say no to the sighted person who wants to be educated right this minute. for example, have you ever been studying at the student union building when someone notices you reading Braille? You really want to study, but this sighted person is just so curious! Given that said individual doesn't know you from Adam or Eve, given that the individual doesn't have anything you need or want, given that the individual doesn't have any authority over you, and given that you really want to study, and given that it's not your job to be a human FAQ page, you do have a right to say no to answering the question. Sure the sighted person may be disappointed and may even be put off that you said no and may think every blind person is rude. But you know, that's their problem. If you've said something like "You know, I'm sorry but this isn't a good time for me," then you haven't been rude at all. same goes with any other inquiry that a sighted person may make, any help they may offer, etc. If a sighted person really seriously must know, there is, as Jim observed, the internet upon which a person can Google "Braille" and get more information than they could possibly go through in a lifetime. here's another one that I've been working on. I personally don't feel comfortable sharing my medical history when it comes to my blindness with total strangers. People with other conditions aren't expected to, so why should I be unless I choose to be? Really, it has nothing to do with me. Again, it's all about the sighted person who wants to tell me about their amazing blind aunt who can fold her laundry even though she can only see shadows. It's all about the sighted person who wants to use this information to figure out how to communicate with me, how to help me, what they can and can't say to me, etc. Naturally, sight doesn't really help a person figure all that out. And what about those who are just curious? Again, we do have the right to say no and do it politely yet confidently. Again, if they get upset because I didn't entertain their curiosity, that's okay. I can simply say, "I'm sorry, but I don't believe I know you and I don't feel it's appropriate for me to share this information with you at this moment." Now, if you want to answer, go ahead. But for those of us who don't, that should be okay, too regardless of what the sighted or blind think about it. Surely, some of you may be asking, "How would you handle someone you know but you still don't feel it's helpful or appropriate to answer a question?" then don't. When I'm at a job interview, I don't think I have to educate my employer about what I can and can't see. They just need to know that I can do the job efficiently and safely. So, when I get the "How much can you see?" question, I simply say "I find that sight doesn't matter much since I use X and Y blindness techniques to get Z done." That usually suffices for most people. If they keep pushing, I might use the appropriacy line because, technically, it is inappropriate based on the fact that we don't know each other and ADA law. And, if they're so hell bent on this idea that sight is required for the job, I'm probably not going to get hired even if I'm a high partial since my vision loss would still be pretty substantial in most cases. These are just my musings on blindness, ignorance, and education. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Arielle, > It seems to me that ignorance is the willingness or desire to be > uninformed, and prejudice is a fearful reaction to the unknown, thus > ignorance and prejudice are related and somewhat self-perpetuating. The > reason I consider ignorance to be a condition of the willing is because > the Internet makes it so that anyone can learn anything about any topic > they choose to learn about. But at the same time, why should someone > learn about something that is irrelevant to them? For example, in my > case, prior to affiliating myself with the NFB and MAB,  I have never > in my life known or interacted with a blind person, therefore I had no > reason to learn about them.  Additionally, sometimes ignorance is > fueled by the fact that people simply don't know what they don't know. > For example, before I went blind, I did not know that there were > different types and degrees of blindness.  I did not know that not all > blind people are totally blind. >  I know for me, my ignorance of blindness was definitely a conscious > choice that was based on fear. I knew I was going blind, but I felt > that somehow denial and ignorance were better than truth and knowledge. > If a blind individual is afraid and unwilling to learn about a > condition that affects his daily life, how can we expect sighted > individuals to care about, or to understand blindness? > Perhaps another relevant question here would be, "If blindness is > irrelevant to an individual, should we care if that individual is > ignorant about blindness?" Personally, I see no reason why every person > in the U.S. needs to know about blindness. Before you all get pissed at > me (again), let me explain. If a sighted person lives in a community > where there are no blind people, who cares what that sighted person or > the community as a whole thinks or knows? If there are no blind people > in the community, it doesn't matter what the community knows, or thinks > about blindness. Once a blind person moves into the community, then > there is a reason for the community to learn about blindness, and it is > the job of the blind individual to actively educate people, but it is > also the job of the blind person to act in a way that demonstrates > confidence and ability. > While I would not consider myself prejudice against blind people or any > other group, I have held anti-blind positions in the past (related to > hybrid cars and Kindle DX lawsuits). Those anti-blind positions stemmed > from my ignorance of,  and apathy towards blindness issues that were > not related to, or applicable to me. The problem was, I considered > myself a sighted person, and as such,  I had no reason to care about or > to consider the needs of blind individuals or the blind community.  For > me, at that point, I did not view NFB actions as serving my needs or > the interests of the blind community, instead, I saw NFB actions as a  > threat to the interest of the sighted community, thus, by extension, > NFB actions were a threat to my interest. >  How do issues that pit the needs and interests of the blind community > against the needs and interest of the sighted community lead to > prejudice against blind people? Things that threaten the status quo > create fear, both fear of change, and fear of the unknown. Naturally, > that fear extends not only to the issue that threatens the status quo, > but that fear also extends to the individuals who are, or are perceived > to be causing the change.  In this case prejudice and fear are not > aimed at the person as an individual, but rather that prejudice stems > from what that person represents. > I got to go, my O/M instructor should be here any minute. > Jim > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 17 03:21:10 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:21:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] prejudice vs ignorance In-Reply-To: <691075.76762.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <691075.76762.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090616232110.gkovptuge88440o4@webmail.utoronto.ca> Jim, You raise some interesting points. I'll state here that I for one am not "pissed at you", as you have articulated your points clearly and passively. I too think that prejudice stems from ignorance, but that an ignorant person is not neceesarily prejudiced. Moving to a new city for school meant meeting a qhole new group of people, and as Jim has mentioned, I was that first blind person that any one of them had met. Naturally, everyone responded differently; some ignored me as they would others they didn't know, some talked to me but wouldn't invite me places, and some true friends enjoyed spending time with me on many occasions. They were all ignorant at first, but they either chose to increase their knowledge or not to. I think this was directly related to their willingness to learn new things and meet different people, and not a specific prejudice against me as a blind person. I think there's more but I can't put it into words at the moment. TTYS, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Arielle, > It seems to me that ignorance is the willingness or desire to be > uninformed, and prejudice is a fearful reaction to the unknown, thus > ignorance and prejudice are related and somewhat self-perpetuating. > The reason I consider ignorance to be a condition of the willing is > because the Internet makes it so that anyone can learn anything > about any topic they choose to learn about. But at the same time, > why should someone learn about something that is irrelevant to them? > For example, in my case, prior to affiliating myself with the NFB > and MAB,  I have never in my life known or interacted with a blind > person, therefore I had no reason to learn about them.  > Additionally, sometimes ignorance is fueled by the fact that people > simply don't know what they don't know. For example, before I went > blind, I did not know that there were different types and degrees of > blindness.  I did not know that not all blind people are totally > blind. > >  I know for me, my ignorance of blindness was definitely a conscious > choice that was based on fear. I knew I was going blind, but I felt > that somehow denial and ignorance were better than truth and > knowledge. If a blind individual is afraid and unwilling to learn > about a condition that affects his daily life, how can we expect > sighted individuals to care about, or to understand blindness? > > Perhaps another relevant question here would be, "If blindness is > irrelevant to an individual, should we care if that individual is > ignorant about blindness?" Personally, I see no reason why every > person in the U.S. needs to know about blindness. Before you all get > pissed at me (again), let me explain. If a sighted person lives in > a community where there are no blind people, who cares what that > sighted person or the community as a whole thinks or knows? If there > are no blind people in the community, it doesn't matter what the > community knows, or thinks about blindness. Once a blind person > moves into the community, then there is a reason for the community > to learn about blindness, and it is the job of the blind individual > to actively educate people, but it is also the job of the blind > person to act in a way that demonstrates confidence and ability. > > While I would not consider myself prejudice against blind people or > any other group, I have held anti-blind positions in the past > (related to hybrid cars and Kindle DX lawsuits). Those anti-blind > positions stemmed from my ignorance of,  and apathy towards > blindness issues that were not related to, or applicable to me. The > problem was, I considered myself a sighted person, and as such,  I > had no reason to care about or to consider the needs of blind > individuals or the blind community.  For me, at that point, I did > not view NFB actions as serving my needs or the interests of the > blind community, instead, I saw NFB actions as a  threat to the > interest of the sighted community, thus, by extension, NFB actions > were a threat to my interest. > >  How do issues that pit the needs and interests of the blind > community against the needs and interest of the sighted community > lead to prejudice against blind people? Things that threaten the > status quo create fear, both fear of change, and fear of the > unknown. Naturally, that fear extends not only to the issue that > threatens the status quo, but that fear also extends to the > individuals who are, or are perceived to be causing the change.  In > this case prejudice and fear are not aimed at the person as an > individual, but rather that prejudice stems from what that person > represents. > > I got to go, my O/M instructor should be here any minute. > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 17 03:23:58 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:23:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer> Message-ID: <20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery slope. Sarah Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : > Hi all,, > > We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take > part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something out > of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, > swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. > > Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not > tolerate discrimination at any time. > > When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take > to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or > do you think your actions were appropriate? > > Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the LCB. I've >> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew times so >> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so I can >> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and there >> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and we >> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane to >> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and bee in >> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is helping me >> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I said >> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen in >> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the steps >> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I can >> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you say >> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I can >> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open there >> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I hope >> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the morning. >> Hehaha! >> >> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do >> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> Hi all, >> >> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >> historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class >> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the >> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of >> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight in >> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave >> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within the >> disabled >> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we perform >> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >> >> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact >> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how we >> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there are >> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". This >> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for thirty >> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your >> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own >> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've >> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to >> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a difference >> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you can >> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, that >> actually causes us trouble. >> >> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple education, >> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" >> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may know >> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn >> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, on >> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a >> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's going >> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. The >> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to >> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter how >> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures out >> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our training >> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, but >> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about blindness. >> >> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who >> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us >> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our >> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to >> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who treat >> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and >> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for >> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of the >> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the >> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). >> >> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is it >> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple educating >> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what can >> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on the >> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to tell >> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But for >> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still >> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators >> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >> misconceptions about blindness? >> >> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to how >> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to be >> blind for ourselves and for others. >> >> Arielle >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca From minesm at me.com Wed Jun 17 03:50:19 2009 From: minesm at me.com (Maurice Mines) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:50:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfb-announce] Fwd: international roaming charges -- Detroit convention References: Message-ID: <0872904A-DC76-4D93-8437-18A13EBC14FD@me.com> hi this just fyi, for all. Begin forwarded message: > From: Corbb O'Connor > Date: June 15, 2009 10:31:04 PM MDT > To: nfbv-announce at nfbnet.org, Virginia Association of Blind Students > list , nfb-announce at nfbnet.org > Subject: [Nfb-announce] Fwd: international roaming charges -- > Detroit convention > > FYI on cell phones at the National Convention! > > Corbb > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Rovig, Lorraine" > Date: June 15, 2009 2:21:43 PM EDT > Subject: FW: international roaming charges -- Detroit convention > > Dear Students, > > Please note the useful advice from the NFB’s IT department below. > > Cordially, > > Lorraine Rovig > Assistant to Mr. Anil Lewis, Chairperson, NFB Scholarship Committee > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > Office: (410) 659-9314, x2415 > Email: scholarships at nfb.org > > From: NFB IT DEPT. > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:17 PM > To: NCB Staff > Subject: international roaming > > For those of you travelling to convention, you’ll notice that just a > couple hundred yards across the Detroit River is Canada, our > neighbor to the north (or in this unusual case, our neighbor to the > south). Though you will need a passport to cross the border, your > cell phone doesn’t. Depending where you are in the hotel, your cell > phone (or data card) may give up on a weak signal from your carrier > and switch to the Rogers Communications cell signal from Canada. > This constitutes international roaming and can be very expensive. > Unless you have a contract that includes it, you might consider > contacting your provider to disable international roaming, if only > for the first couple of weeks of July. I found AT&T to be very > helpful in providing assistance with my request. To make it a bit > easier for those interested, here are contact numbers for the > various carriers: > > AT&T : 611 or 800-331-0500 > Sprint : *2, press Talk or 888-211-4727 > T-Mobile : 800-937-8997 > Verizon : *611 or 800-922-0204 > Virgin Mobile : 888-322-1122 > > Here’s to no cell phone bill suprises, eh? If you supervise anyone > without e-mail, please advise any of those attending convention. > > Regards, > John > > _______________________________________________ > Nfb-announce mailing list > Nfb-announce at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-announce_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for Nfb-announce: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-announce_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com From davidb521 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 05:00:07 2009 From: davidb521 at gmail.com (David Bouchard) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:00:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers Message-ID: <4a387859.03015a0a.1b6a.ffff95a1@mx.google.com> Of course. My mistake. I always seem to get those models confused somehow. David -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers That is an Everest, and the feed stuff can be unreliable. The Basic D is a tractor-fed embosser and more reliable. Dave At 08:30 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >Hi, >I actually have an Index Braille embosser, and they are slightly >temperamental. It is not a tractor-feed embosser, meaning that you >place individual sheets of paper into a tray. Sometimes you need to >be careful with the machine pulling in more than one sheet of paper, >but I believe the hardware has improved in the past 8 years. The >embosser is quick, but relatively noisy, especially when you stand >next to it. However, you can get a rather expensive sound cabinet. >You can email me off-list if you have more questions about it, >although keep in mind that I am not an embosser expert by any means. >Hope this helps, >David > >-----Original Message----- >From: Haben Girma >Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 7:12 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers > > >Hello, > >I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to emboss >textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are among the >quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. Does anyone >know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares to the Juliet >Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since it is very >portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, >a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental >and prone to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? > >thanks, >Haben > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com From habnkid at aol.com Wed Jun 17 05:57:56 2009 From: habnkid at aol.com (Haben Girma) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:57:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> References: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4A3885E4.1070304@aol.com> Thanks David. I seem to have missed the part about the Index Basic D not being a tractor feed embosser when I was doing the research. That's an important feature for me since I"ll be embossing textbooks. Haben David Bouchard wrote: > Hi, > I actually have an Index Braille embosser, and they are slightly temperamental. It is not a tractor-feed embosser, meaning that you place individual sheets of paper into a tray. Sometimes you need to be careful with the machine pulling in more than one sheet of paper, but I believe the hardware has improved in the past 8 years. The embosser is quick, but relatively noisy, especially when you stand next to it. However, you can get a rather expensive sound cabinet. You can email me off-list if you have more questions about it, although keep in mind that I am not an embosser expert by any means. > Hope this helps, > David > > -----Original Message----- > From: Haben Girma > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 7:12 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers > > > Hello, > > I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to emboss > textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are among the > quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. Does anyone > know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares to the Juliet > Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since it is very > portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, > a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental > and prone to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? > > thanks, > Haben > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com > From habnkid at aol.com Wed Jun 17 06:02:00 2009 From: habnkid at aol.com (Haben Girma) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:02:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: References: <4a36f5a6.060ec00a.7961.ffffd7a2@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4A3886D8.8050705@aol.com> Thanks Dave! David Andrews wrote: > That is an Everest, and the feed stuff can be unreliable. The Basic D > is a tractor-fed embosser and more reliable. > > Dave > > At 08:30 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >> Hi, >> I actually have an Index Braille embosser, and they are slightly >> temperamental. It is not a tractor-feed embosser, meaning that you >> place individual sheets of paper into a tray. Sometimes you need to >> be careful with the machine pulling in more than one sheet of paper, >> but I believe the hardware has improved in the past 8 years. The >> embosser is quick, but relatively noisy, especially when you stand >> next to it. However, you can get a rather expensive sound cabinet. >> You can email me off-list if you have more questions about it, >> although keep in mind that I am not an embosser expert by any means. >> Hope this helps, >> David >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Haben Girma >> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 7:12 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers >> >> >> Hello, >> >> I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to emboss >> textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are among the >> quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. Does anyone >> know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares to the Juliet >> Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since it is very >> portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, >> a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental >> and prone to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? >> >> thanks, >> Haben >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidb521%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com From habnkid at aol.com Wed Jun 17 06:06:15 2009 From: habnkid at aol.com (Haben Girma) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 23:06:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: References: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> Message-ID: <4A3887D7.3000309@aol.com> Can you estimate the size and weight of the Index Basic D? thanks, Haben David Andrews wrote: > The Tiger embossers should be quiet as they are not grossly > mechanical, the way others are Nothing is going to be completely > quiet though. > > Fast is a relative term, the fastest embossers are in the $30,000 to > $100,000 range, and I don't think you can afford those. If you can I > will be your tech guy! > > The index basic D has improved, and we have had good luck with them. > > Also, the Braille quality on the Tiger isn't its strongest point, so > make sure you have seen it first. It is best at graphics, and > graphics/text mixes. > > Dave > > At 07:12 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to >> emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are >> among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they are. >> Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers compares >> to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index Basic D since >> it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can handle large >> print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states that Index >> embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and breaking. Is >> that still the case in 2009? >> >> thanks, >> Haben >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 4157 (20090615) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com From troubleclark at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 11:23:17 2009 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:23:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> Message-ID: I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: > Hello Denna and listers, > > When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If my > family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go to > public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. My > mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school district > would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of > getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that > district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for the > Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. > Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me > Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have > received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and social > skills. > > At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. > > Mary Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > > >> Hi everyone: >> >> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >> especially since I haven't >> been in two years. >> >> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research >> later on. >> >> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >> opportunity to provide >> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >> education in a public school >> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >> ended up in? Looking >> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >> >> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >> just wanted to get a feel >> for the range of experiences people may have. >> >> Thanks >> >> Denna Lambert >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 12:14:00 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:14:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> Message-ID: <000d01c9ef45$197e2890$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> I went to public school. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Clark" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the > blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than > blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other > problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get > out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people > at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be > prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. > > On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >> Hello Denna and listers, >> >> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If >> my >> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go >> to >> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. >> My >> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >> district >> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of >> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >> the >> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me >> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have >> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >> social >> skills. >> >> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >> >> Mary Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >> >> >>> Hi everyone: >>> >>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>> especially since I haven't >>> been in two years. >>> >>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>> research >>> later on. >>> >>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >>> opportunity to provide >>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>> education in a public school >>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >>> ended up in? Looking >>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>> >>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>> just wanted to get a feel >>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Denna Lambert >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 13:44:47 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 09:44:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. Beth On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: > I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the > blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than > blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other > problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get > out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people > at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be > prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. > > On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >> Hello Denna and listers, >> >> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If >> my >> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go >> to >> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. >> My >> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school district >> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of >> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >> the >> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me >> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have >> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >> social >> skills. >> >> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >> >> Mary Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >> >> >>> Hi everyone: >>> >>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>> especially since I haven't >>> been in two years. >>> >>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research >>> later on. >>> >>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >>> opportunity to provide >>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>> education in a public school >>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >>> ended up in? Looking >>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>> >>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>> just wanted to get a feel >>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Denna Lambert >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 17 14:54:24 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:54:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> Message-ID: <20090617105424.4i4p0auhakoc0skc@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi, Just for reference, please don't use the term retardation or any of its derivatives. It was a term of the past, but is now considered offensive. More to the point though, I have always attended public schools. I used to be really against schools for the blind, but have come to realized as I have matured more that they do have a place and purpose in society for those students who need them, even though I don't consider myself such a student. I have observed that students in public schools had better social skills and greater expectations for themselves than those students who attended schools for the blind. I do know that in terms of athletics and job placement opportunities, students at schools for the blind had the upper hand, as teachers there were better used to working with the blind than teachers at public schools. Smaller class sizes at schools for the blind allow for more individualized attention in class, but I have heard that academic standards at schools for the blind are lower than at public schools. Quoting Nathan Clark : > I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the > blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than > blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other > problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get > out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people > at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be > prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. > > On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >> Hello Denna and listers, >> >> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If my >> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go to >> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. My >> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school district >> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of >> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for the >> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me >> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have >> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and social >> skills. >> >> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >> >> Mary Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >> >> >>> Hi everyone: >>> >>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>> especially since I haven't >>> been in two years. >>> >>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research >>> later on. >>> >>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >>> opportunity to provide >>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>> education in a public school >>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >>> ended up in? Looking >>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>> >>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>> just wanted to get a feel >>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Denna Lambert >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 17 15:02:20 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:02:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <4A3887D7.3000309@aol.com> References: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> <4A3887D7.3000309@aol.com> Message-ID: <20090617110220.jhxnhzkjwo8co8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca> HI Haben, Here's a link to some info on Index Braille Embossers, specifically the Basic-D but there are links to others too on this page. http://abro.ca/product.php?id=Basic-D,S&parent=brailleEmb.txtI'd have to guess Quoting Haben Girma : > Can you estimate the size and weight of the Index Basic D? > > thanks, > Haben > > David Andrews wrote: >> The Tiger embossers should be quiet as they are not grossly >> mechanical, the way others are Nothing is going to be completely >> quiet though. >> >> Fast is a relative term, the fastest embossers are in the $30,000 >> to $100,000 range, and I don't think you can afford those. If you >> can I will be your tech guy! >> >> The index basic D has improved, and we have had good luck with them. >> >> Also, the Braille quality on the Tiger isn't its strongest point, >> so make sure you have seen it first. It is best at graphics, and >> graphics/text mixes. >> >> Dave >> >> At 07:12 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to >>> emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are >>> among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they >>> are. Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers >>> compares to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index >>> Basic D since it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can >>> handle large print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states >>> that Index embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and >>> breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? >>> >>> thanks, >>> Haben >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 4157 (20090615) >>> __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca From troubleclark at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 15:06:00 2009 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:06:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> <4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? nathan On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: > Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are > sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. > Beth > > On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >> >> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>> Hello Denna and listers, >>> >>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If >>> my >>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go >>> to >>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. >>> My >>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>> district >>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of >>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>> the >>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me >>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have >>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>> social >>> skills. >>> >>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>> >>> Mary Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>> >>> >>>> Hi everyone: >>>> >>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>> especially since I haven't >>>> been in two years. >>>> >>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>> research >>>> later on. >>>> >>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >>>> opportunity to provide >>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>> education in a public school >>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >>>> ended up in? Looking >>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>> >>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Denna Lambert >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From hope.paulos at maine.edu Wed Jun 17 17:09:37 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:09:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education Message-ID: <20090617171040929.QOVQ1654@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> I also attended public school all of my life. I was "included" (the older term for this was "mainstreamed"). I think each school setting has its benefits. First, I didn't getting best of education in public school. I was the first and only blind student in my elementary and high school. Although academic standards may be lowed at schools for the blind, I feel teachers are better able to meet the academic needs of their blind students. That said, students who attend schools for the blind for a long period of time attend classes with individuals who may have additional disabilities. This can lead to the acquisition of inappropriate repetitive behaviors. This happens not only in schools for the blind but in any institutional setting. Public schools, however, allow blind students to interact with their sighted peers and requires them to act appropriately around sighted people. All in all, each school setting has its benefits. Just my opinion! Hope and Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- >From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date sent: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:54:24 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >Hi, >Just for reference, please don't use the term retardation or any of >its derivatives. It was a term of the past, but is now considered >offensive. >More to the point though, I have always attended public schools. I >used to be really against schools for the blind, but have come to >realized as I have matured more that they do have a place and purpose >in society for those students who need them, even though I don't >consider myself such a student. I have observed that students in >public schools had better social skills and greater expectations for >themselves than those students who attended schools for the blind. I >do know that in terms of athletics and job placement opportunities, >students at schools for the blind had the upper hand, as teachers >there were better used to working with the blind than teachers at >public schools. Smaller class sizes at schools for the blind allow for >more individualized attention in class, but I have heard that academic >standards at schools for the blind are lower than at public schools. >Quoting Nathan Clark : >> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>> Hello Denna and listers, >>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If my >>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go to >>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. My >>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school district >>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of >>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for the >>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me >>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have >>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and social >>> skills. >>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>> Mary Donahue >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>> Hi everyone: >>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>> especially since I haven't >>>> been in two years. >>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research >>>> later on. >>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >>>> opportunity to provide >>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>> education in a public school >>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >>>> ended up in? Looking >>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>> Thanks >>>> Denna Lambert >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%4 0sbcglobal.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troublecl ark%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jev nikar%40utoronto.ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine.edu From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 17:05:51 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:05:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> <4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906171005i814fc5fx299cfda1cda62d97@mail.gmail.com> Right. Not unless you're intelligent like a friend of mine is. He was lucky to go to grad school but had to drop it because of debts he owed the college. Beth On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: > it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students > from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? > nathan > > > On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: >> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are >> sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. >> Beth >> >> On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >>> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >>> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >>> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >>> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >>> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >>> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >>> >>> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>>> Hello Denna and listers, >>>> >>>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. >>>> If >>>> my >>>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to >>>> go >>>> to >>>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, >>>> Wisconsin. >>>> My >>>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>>> district >>>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way >>>> of >>>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>>> the >>>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught >>>> me >>>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't >>>> have >>>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>>> social >>>> skills. >>>> >>>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Mary Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone: >>>>> >>>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>>> especially since I haven't >>>>> been in two years. >>>>> >>>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>>> research >>>>> later on. >>>>> >>>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given >>>>> an >>>>> opportunity to provide >>>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>>> education in a public school >>>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting >>>>> you >>>>> ended up in? Looking >>>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>>> >>>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Denna Lambert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 17:48:06 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 03:48:06 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: <20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer> <20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Hi all, According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What the three all have in common is that, even though technically they can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than our individual strengths and weaknesses. My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). Arielle On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a > clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would > help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing > event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery slope. > Sarah > > Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : > >> Hi all,, >> >> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something out >> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >> >> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >> tolerate discrimination at any time. >> >> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >> do you think your actions were appropriate? >> >> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the LCB. >>> I've >>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew times >>> so >>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so I >>> can >>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and there >>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and we >>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane to >>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and bee >>> in >>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is helping >>> me >>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>> said >>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen in >>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>> steps >>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I >>> can >>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you say >>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I can >>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>> there >>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I hope >>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>> morning. >>> Hehaha! >>> >>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do >>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class >>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the >>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of >>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight >>> in >>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave >>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within >>> the >>> disabled >>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>> perform >>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>> >>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact >>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how >>> we >>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there >>> are >>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". >>> This >>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>> thirty >>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your >>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own >>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've >>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to >>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>> difference >>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you >>> can >>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>> that >>> actually causes us trouble. >>> >>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>> education, >>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" >>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>> know >>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn >>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, >>> on >>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a >>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's >>> going >>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. >>> The >>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to >>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter >>> how >>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures >>> out >>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>> training >>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, >>> but >>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>> blindness. >>> >>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who >>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us >>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our >>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to >>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who >>> treat >>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and >>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for >>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of >>> the >>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the >>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). >>> >>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is >>> it >>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>> educating >>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what >>> can >>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on >>> the >>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>> tell >>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But >>> for >>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still >>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators >>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>> misconceptions about blindness? >>> >>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to >>> how >>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to >>> be >>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 17 18:06:27 2009 From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:06:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d><4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c9ef76$56ac6d90$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Nathan and listers, Not all together true. There are numerous blind individuals that attended schools for the blind and later had distinguished careers in their field of interest. Here is a short list: Helen Keller Dr. Jacob Bolotin, (The first successful blind doctor in the United States) Dr. Nuel Perry, (Former Director of the California School for the Blind and mentor to Dr. Jacobus TenBroek) Dr. Jacobus TenBroek, (Founder of the National Federation of the Blind and distinguished scholar of law and a Speech Professor ) Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, (World authority on blindness and a teacher of blind children. He is the immediate past-President of the National Federation of the Blind and a pioneer in blindness rehabilitation) Dr. T.V. (Tim) Cranmer, (Inventor of technology for the blind including the Cranmer Abacus, the Braille-N Speak, and other assistive technology and services for the blind.) Fanny Crosby, (19th Century blind hymn composer and poet Peggy Pinder-Eliot, (A successful lawyer, former NFB Board Member and a past NFB scholarship recipient and past scholarship committee chairperson) Richard Ossinger, Successful Blind Entrepreneur) Ray Charles Stevie Wunder Ronnie Milsap Tom Sullivan Glenn Crosby, (A successful blind restaurantor) I believe that the above list gives some examples of successful blind individuals who received part or all of their education from a school for the blind. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Clark" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? nathan On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: > Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are > sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. > Beth > > On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >> >> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>> Hello Denna and listers, >>> >>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. >>> If >>> my >>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to >>> go >>> to >>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, >>> Wisconsin. >>> My >>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>> district >>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way >>> of >>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>> the >>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught >>> me >>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't >>> have >>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>> social >>> skills. >>> >>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>> >>> Mary Donahue >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>> >>> >>>> Hi everyone: >>>> >>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>> especially since I haven't >>>> been in two years. >>>> >>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>> research >>>> later on. >>>> >>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given >>>> an >>>> opportunity to provide >>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>> education in a public school >>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting >>>> you >>>> ended up in? Looking >>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>> >>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Denna Lambert >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net From hope.paulos at maine.edu Wed Jun 17 17:09:42 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:09:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education Message-ID: <20090617171045803.QOXW1654@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> It depends on the student's academic abilities as to whether or not they go to college. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Nathan Clark To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 11:06:00 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students >from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? >nathan >On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: >> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are >> sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. >> Beth >> On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >>> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >>> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >>> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >>> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >>> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >>> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >>> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>>> Hello Denna and listers, >>>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If >>>> my >>>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go >>>> to >>>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. >>>> My >>>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>>> district >>>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of >>>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>>> the >>>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me >>>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have >>>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>>> social >>>> skills. >>>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>>> Mary Donahue >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>>> Hi everyone: >>>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>>> especially since I haven't >>>>> been in two years. >>>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>>> research >>>>> later on. >>>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >>>>> opportunity to provide >>>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>>> education in a public school >>>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >>>>> ended up in? Looking >>>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Denna Lambert >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%4 0sbcglobal.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troublecl ark%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesi sloose%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troublecl ark%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40maine.edu From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 17 19:25:37 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:25:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> <4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090617152537.qncc44h5j4www80k@webmail.utoronto.ca> At least in my experience, schools for the blind prepare those students who could achieve education beyond high school for it. Many students I know who went to these schools are going or have gone to higher education. Quoting Nathan Clark : > it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students > from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? > nathan > > > On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: >> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are >> sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. >> Beth >> >> On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >>> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >>> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >>> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >>> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >>> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >>> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >>> >>> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>>> Hello Denna and listers, >>>> >>>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. If >>>> my >>>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to go >>>> to >>>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, Wisconsin. >>>> My >>>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>>> district >>>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way of >>>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>>> the >>>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught me >>>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't have >>>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>>> social >>>> skills. >>>> >>>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Mary Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone: >>>>> >>>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>>> especially since I haven't >>>>> been in two years. >>>>> >>>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>>> research >>>>> later on. >>>>> >>>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >>>>> opportunity to provide >>>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>>> education in a public school >>>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >>>>> ended up in? Looking >>>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>>> >>>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Denna Lambert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 17 19:31:02 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:31:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer> <20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090617153102.d22nc29t64ok44ko@webmail.utoronto.ca> I see your point, Arielle. I agree with you. Sarah Quoting Arielle Silverman : > Hi all, > > According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an > emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members > of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused > with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but > prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the > attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral > component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's > reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or > anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are > slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good > at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to > read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us > preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What > the three all have in common is that, even though technically they > can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group > membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same > because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than > our individual strengths and weaknesses. > > My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is > what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we > get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they > still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as > a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people > feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing > to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). > > Arielle > > On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: >> >> >> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery slope. >> Sarah >> >> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >> >>> Hi all,, >>> >>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something out >>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>> >>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>> >>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>> >>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the LCB. >>>> I've >>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew times >>>> so >>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so I >>>> can >>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and there >>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and we >>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane to >>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and bee >>>> in >>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is helping >>>> me >>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>> said >>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen in >>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>> steps >>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I >>>> can >>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you say >>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I can >>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>> there >>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I hope >>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>> morning. >>>> Hehaha! >>>> >>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do >>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of second-class >>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of the >>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency of >>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of sight >>>> in >>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would leave >>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within >>>> the >>>> disabled >>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>> perform >>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>> >>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In fact >>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how >>>> we >>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, there >>>> are >>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". >>>> This >>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>> thirty >>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of your >>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own >>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people we've >>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been to >>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>> difference >>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but you >>>> can >>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>> that >>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>> education, >>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" >>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>> know >>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn >>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, >>>> on >>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a >>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's >>>> going >>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. >>>> The >>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going to >>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter >>>> how >>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures >>>> out >>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>> training >>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, >>>> but >>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>> blindness. >>>> >>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people who >>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat us >>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on our >>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend to >>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who >>>> treat >>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, and >>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, for >>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many of >>>> the >>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of the >>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their own). >>>> >>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? Is >>>> it >>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>> educating >>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what >>>> can >>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on >>>> the >>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>> tell >>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But >>>> for >>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while still >>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with educators >>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>> >>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to >>>> how >>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to >>>> be >>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 19:53:53 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson Message-ID: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not impressed. I am not convinced that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude towards blindness to teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). Given the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach me under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. Before I could turn around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, even though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made me take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need a lesson on sighted O/M, I've been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the landmarks that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess she just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to detect and avoid obstacles on my own. Towards the end of the lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next lesson I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, and I intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. Additionally, I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a sleepshade and travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to agree with, she said, "if your O/M instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works with clients under sleepshades." Thoughts? Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 19:58:45 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 12:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Low vision cane travel question Message-ID: <974421.92523.qm@web65704.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I have a low vision cane travel question for you all. I have been wearing a pair of sunglasses at night when I go out to practice using my cane. These sunglasses have both positive and negitive consiquences. First, from a positive point, they make it dark enough that it is a waste of time for me to try and see whats in front of me, thus I have all but stopped using my vision for the mobility aspect of cane travel. Additionally, the sunglasses aford me a little bit of protection from trees and bushes that my thin, wire framed reading glasses simply can't provide. The downside of wearing sunglasses at night is that I tend to forget to use my vision for what it's worth; I tend to just stare straight ahead while I am under my sunglasses. Additionally, I am still using visual landmarks to navigate, and I have gotten myself lost (either completely or slightly) everytime I have gone out under sunglasses. The reason I am getting lost is because I am looking for visual landmarks that I simply can't see under sunglasses. This suggest two alternatives, lose the sunglasses or get non-visual O/M training.  I have only had one O/M lesson under sleepshades, so I really don't feel comfortable getting out there on my own to practice under sleepshades. The inability, or unwillingness to practice by myself undersleepshades means that I can't develop my own set of non-visual landmarks to follow, thus I am forced to rely on faulty vision to guide me. Additionally, I don't want to be limited to set routes. My goal is to be able to find my way to and from any point in this city, day or night, visually and/or non-visually, and with or without the aid of a GPS. I know that I have set high expectations, but I expect nothing less of myself. Unfourtunatly, when it comes to O/M instruction, I've been told to expect one lesson per week. I am not sure if I can I develop the skills needed to realize my goal of safe and unrestricted non-visual travel and navigation if I am only getting one O/M lesson per week.  Clearly, the once a week non-visual O/M training is going to take a while, so, I return my focus to eyewear. I am wondering if any of you have any suggestions for eyewear that may work better for me at night than dark sunglasses. For example, I am wondering if a pair of orange tinted sunglasses might work better for me at night than a dark tinted pair. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Wed Jun 17 20:43:44 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:43:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: <000901c9ef76$56ac6d90$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d><4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> <000901c9ef76$56ac6d90$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <20090617164344.t4zld7nrxcg80koo@webmail.utoronto.ca> don't forget Louis Braille. Where would we be without him? Quoting Peter Donahue : > Hello Nathan and listers, > > Not all together true. There are numerous blind individuals that > attended schools for the blind and later had distinguished careers in their > field of interest. Here is a short list: > > Helen Keller > Dr. Jacob Bolotin, (The first successful blind doctor in the United States) > Dr. Nuel Perry, (Former Director of the California School for the Blind and > mentor to Dr. Jacobus TenBroek) > Dr. Jacobus TenBroek, (Founder of the National Federation of the Blind and > distinguished scholar of law and a Speech Professor ) > Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, (World authority on blindness and a teacher of blind > children. He is the immediate past-President of the National Federation of > the Blind and a pioneer in blindness rehabilitation) > Dr. T.V. (Tim) Cranmer, (Inventor of technology for the blind including the > Cranmer Abacus, the Braille-N Speak, and other assistive technology and > services for the blind.) > Fanny Crosby, (19th Century blind hymn composer and poet > Peggy Pinder-Eliot, (A successful lawyer, former NFB Board Member and a past > NFB scholarship recipient and past scholarship committee chairperson) > Richard Ossinger, Successful Blind Entrepreneur) > Ray Charles > Stevie Wunder > Ronnie Milsap > Tom Sullivan > Glenn Crosby, (A successful blind restaurantor) > > I believe that the above list gives some examples of successful blind > individuals who received part or all of their education from a school for > the blind. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nathan Clark" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > > > it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students > from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? > nathan > > > On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: >> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are >> sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. >> Beth >> >> On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >>> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >>> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >>> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >>> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >>> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >>> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >>> >>> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>>> Hello Denna and listers, >>>> >>>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. >>>> If >>>> my >>>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to >>>> go >>>> to >>>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, >>>> Wisconsin. >>>> My >>>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>>> district >>>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way >>>> of >>>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>>> the >>>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught >>>> me >>>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't >>>> have >>>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>>> social >>>> skills. >>>> >>>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Mary Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone: >>>>> >>>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>>> especially since I haven't >>>>> been in two years. >>>>> >>>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>>> research >>>>> later on. >>>>> >>>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given >>>>> an >>>>> opportunity to provide >>>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>>> education in a public school >>>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting >>>>> you >>>>> ended up in? Looking >>>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>>> >>>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Denna Lambert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 21:20:26 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:20:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d><4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com><000901c9ef76$56ac6d90$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> <20090617164344.t4zld7nrxcg80koo@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <6D5718717E0840B8BFDF8696FD29FA82@Dezman> Excellent point Sarah. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > don't forget Louis Braille. Where would we be without him? > > > > Quoting Peter Donahue : > >> Hello Nathan and listers, >> >> Not all together true. There are numerous blind individuals that >> attended schools for the blind and later had distinguished careers in >> their >> field of interest. Here is a short list: >> >> Helen Keller >> Dr. Jacob Bolotin, (The first successful blind doctor in the United >> States) >> Dr. Nuel Perry, (Former Director of the California School for the Blind >> and >> mentor to Dr. Jacobus TenBroek) >> Dr. Jacobus TenBroek, (Founder of the National Federation of the Blind >> and >> distinguished scholar of law and a Speech Professor ) >> Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, (World authority on blindness and a teacher of >> blind >> children. He is the immediate past-President of the National Federation >> of >> the Blind and a pioneer in blindness rehabilitation) >> Dr. T.V. (Tim) Cranmer, (Inventor of technology for the blind including >> the >> Cranmer Abacus, the Braille-N Speak, and other assistive technology and >> services for the blind.) >> Fanny Crosby, (19th Century blind hymn composer and poet >> Peggy Pinder-Eliot, (A successful lawyer, former NFB Board Member and a >> past >> NFB scholarship recipient and past scholarship committee chairperson) >> Richard Ossinger, Successful Blind Entrepreneur) >> Ray Charles >> Stevie Wunder >> Ronnie Milsap >> Tom Sullivan >> Glenn Crosby, (A successful blind restaurantor) >> >> I believe that the above list gives some examples of successful blind >> individuals who received part or all of their education from a school for >> the blind. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Nathan Clark" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >> >> >> it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students >> from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? >> nathan >> >> >> On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: >>> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are >>> sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. >>> Beth >>> >>> On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>>> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >>>> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >>>> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >>>> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >>>> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >>>> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >>>> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >>>> >>>> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>>>> Hello Denna and listers, >>>>> >>>>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. >>>>> If >>>>> my >>>>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to >>>>> go >>>>> to >>>>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, >>>>> Wisconsin. >>>>> My >>>>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>>>> district >>>>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way >>>>> of >>>>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in >>>>> that >>>>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School >>>>> for >>>>> the >>>>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>>>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught >>>>> me >>>>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't >>>>> have >>>>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>>>> social >>>>> skills. >>>>> >>>>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>>>> >>>>> Mary Donahue >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone: >>>>>> >>>>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>>>> especially since I haven't >>>>>> been in two years. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>>>> research >>>>>> later on. >>>>>> >>>>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given >>>>>> an >>>>>> opportunity to provide >>>>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>>>> education in a public school >>>>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting >>>>>> you >>>>>> ended up in? Looking >>>>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>>>> >>>>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, >>>>>> but >>>>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> >>>>>> Denna Lambert >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 21:38:30 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:38:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson References: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c9ef93$f5e24ed0$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> How about asking her what would happen if you suddenly lost what sight you still had? How would she teach you what you want to learn? Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "NABS mail list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 3:53 PM Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson > Hey all, > > I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not impressed. > I am not convinced > that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude towards > blindness to > teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be > able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to > go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). > > Given > the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach me > under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal > travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. > Before I could turn > around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, even > though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual > techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every > block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made me > take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see > the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put > on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also > two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with > her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably > walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need a > lesson on sighted O/M, I've > been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to > see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I > am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me > figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the landmarks > that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes > sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was > telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other > obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I > approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I > even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was > doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess she > just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to > detect and avoid obstacles on my own. > > Towards the end of the > lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told > her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She > seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like > "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next lesson > I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, and I > intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. > > Additionally, > I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a sleepshade > and > travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I > havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to > become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to agree > with, she said, "if your O/M > instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really > doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge > learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical > application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of > an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works > with clients under sleepshades." > > Thoughts? > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Wed Jun 17 21:44:43 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:44:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d><4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> <000901c9ef76$56ac6d90$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <010501c9ef94$d3cf0d50$0701a8c0@Serene> True, but I noticed that none of these people are my generation or a little bit older. I wonder ... have the academic standards at schools for the blind declined since these people graduated? Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > Hello Nathan and listers, > > Not all together true. There are numerous blind individuals that > attended schools for the blind and later had distinguished careers in > their > field of interest. Here is a short list: > > Helen Keller > Dr. Jacob Bolotin, (The first successful blind doctor in the United > States) > Dr. Nuel Perry, (Former Director of the California School for the Blind > and > mentor to Dr. Jacobus TenBroek) > Dr. Jacobus TenBroek, (Founder of the National Federation of the Blind and > distinguished scholar of law and a Speech Professor ) > Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, (World authority on blindness and a teacher of blind > children. He is the immediate past-President of the National Federation of > the Blind and a pioneer in blindness rehabilitation) > Dr. T.V. (Tim) Cranmer, (Inventor of technology for the blind including > the > Cranmer Abacus, the Braille-N Speak, and other assistive technology and > services for the blind.) > Fanny Crosby, (19th Century blind hymn composer and poet > Peggy Pinder-Eliot, (A successful lawyer, former NFB Board Member and a > past > NFB scholarship recipient and past scholarship committee chairperson) > Richard Ossinger, Successful Blind Entrepreneur) > Ray Charles > Stevie Wunder > Ronnie Milsap > Tom Sullivan > Glenn Crosby, (A successful blind restaurantor) > > I believe that the above list gives some examples of successful blind > individuals who received part or all of their education from a school for > the blind. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nathan Clark" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > > > it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students > from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? > nathan > > > On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: >> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are >> sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. >> Beth >> >> On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >>> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >>> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >>> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >>> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >>> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >>> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >>> >>> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>>> Hello Denna and listers, >>>> >>>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. >>>> If >>>> my >>>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to >>>> go >>>> to >>>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, >>>> Wisconsin. >>>> My >>>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>>> district >>>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way >>>> of >>>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>>> the >>>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught >>>> me >>>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't >>>> have >>>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>>> social >>>> skills. >>>> >>>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Mary Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone: >>>>> >>>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>>> especially since I haven't >>>>> been in two years. >>>>> >>>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>>> research >>>>> later on. >>>>> >>>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given >>>>> an >>>>> opportunity to provide >>>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>>> education in a public school >>>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting >>>>> you >>>>> ended up in? Looking >>>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>>> >>>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, >>>>> but >>>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Denna Lambert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From troubleclark at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 21:51:16 2009 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:51:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: <000901c9ef76$56ac6d90$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> <4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> <000901c9ef76$56ac6d90$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: You are absoluetly correct and what I should have said was now that blind students have choices whether to go to a public school or a school for the blind, the blind schools that I am knowledgeable about tend to have predonimately students with multiple disabilities. With multiple disabilities, it can distract from the education of others in the classroom. I know that when I lost my vision at the age of 9, the Department of Education in the state in which I live suggested that my parents NOT send me to the school for the blind because of the severity of disabilities of students there. The list of blind school graduates you have sent below are obviously successful people who are very intelligent and succeeded when the laws weren't necessarily on their side as much as they are today. Hope that clears up my comment Nathan On 6/17/09, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Nathan and listers, > > Not all together true. There are numerous blind individuals that > attended schools for the blind and later had distinguished careers in their > field of interest. Here is a short list: > > Helen Keller > Dr. Jacob Bolotin, (The first successful blind doctor in the United States) > Dr. Nuel Perry, (Former Director of the California School for the Blind and > mentor to Dr. Jacobus TenBroek) > Dr. Jacobus TenBroek, (Founder of the National Federation of the Blind and > distinguished scholar of law and a Speech Professor ) > Dr. Kenneth Jernigan, (World authority on blindness and a teacher of blind > children. He is the immediate past-President of the National Federation of > the Blind and a pioneer in blindness rehabilitation) > Dr. T.V. (Tim) Cranmer, (Inventor of technology for the blind including the > Cranmer Abacus, the Braille-N Speak, and other assistive technology and > services for the blind.) > Fanny Crosby, (19th Century blind hymn composer and poet > Peggy Pinder-Eliot, (A successful lawyer, former NFB Board Member and a past > NFB scholarship recipient and past scholarship committee chairperson) > Richard Ossinger, Successful Blind Entrepreneur) > Ray Charles > Stevie Wunder > Ronnie Milsap > Tom Sullivan > Glenn Crosby, (A successful blind restaurantor) > > I believe that the above list gives some examples of successful blind > individuals who received part or all of their education from a school for > the blind. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nathan Clark" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > > > it is just go and graduate and then try to find a job. Most students > from school for the blind don't usually go to college right? > nathan > > > On 6/17/09, Beth wrote: >> Good point, Nathan. I think a lot of schools for the blind are >> sheltered communities with no real world things to look forward to. >> Beth >> >> On 6/17/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>> I am in a public school and I am glad I did not go to a school for the >>> blind. Some of the kids at school for the blinds may have more than >>> blindness as a disability we are talking mental retardation or other >>> problems. I love it in public school due to the fact that when I get >>> out in the job market I will probably will not see other blind people >>> at the job. By vgoing to public school I am being forced to be >>> prepared to what I will face when I get out into the real world. >>> >>> On 6/16/09, Mary Donahue wrote: >>>> Hello Denna and listers, >>>> >>>> When I started school in the late 1950s, there wasn't much choice. >>>> If >>>> my >>>> family and I had stayed in the Chicago area, I would have been able to >>>> go >>>> to >>>> public school. However, in early 1958, we moved to Eau Claire, >>>> Wisconsin. >>>> My >>>> mother would have liked me to go to public school, but the school >>>> district >>>> would not budge in its thinking. If I went, then there would be no way >>>> of >>>> getting my material, and I was the only blind child at the time in that >>>> district. Therefore, it meant driving 220 miles to the State School for >>>> the >>>> Visually Handicapped in Janesville, which was quite traumatic for me. >>>> Looking back, though, I have no regrets. My first-grade teacher taught >>>> me >>>> Braille, I eventually learned cane travel, which I probably wouldn't >>>> have >>>> received in public school. The same goes for daily living skills and >>>> social >>>> skills. >>>> >>>> At any rate, those are my thoughts. Hope this helps. >>>> >>>> Mary Donahue >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:11 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone: >>>>> >>>>> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >>>>> especially since I haven't >>>>> been in two years. >>>>> >>>>> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some >>>>> research >>>>> later on. >>>>> >>>>> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given >>>>> an >>>>> opportunity to provide >>>>> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >>>>> education in a public school >>>>> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting >>>>> you >>>>> ended up in? Looking >>>>> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >>>>> >>>>> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >>>>> just wanted to get a feel >>>>> for the range of experiences people may have. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Denna Lambert >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/braille%40sbcglobal.net >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 22:28:17 2009 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:28:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson In-Reply-To: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63af025c0906171528s6757fee0p7423c0318fb0132e@mail.gmail.com> You sound like you're describing my old O/M instructory as well as the two instructors I met prior to him and blatantly refused to work with for what I felt were very good reasons. That's every O/M instructor I've ever met The NFB, in my opinion, has an excellent idea of how O/M *should* work, and from what I've heard they put it to extremely good using at their centers for the blind. But to anyone's knowledge, has the NFB made any recent efforts to take their philosophy further than teaching O/M skills to the blind? Has anything been done to address this at it's core, at the universities that educate and train the O/M instructors themselves? On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not impressed. > I am not convinced > that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude towards > blindness to > teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be > able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to > go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). > > Given > the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach me > under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal > travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. > Before I could turn > around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, even > though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual > techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every > block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made me > take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see > the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put > on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also > two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with > her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably > walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need a > lesson on sighted O/M, I've > been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to > see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I > am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me > figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the landmarks > that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes > sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was > telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other > obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I > approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I > even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was > doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess she > just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to > detect and avoid obstacles on my own. > > Towards the end of the > lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told > her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She > seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like > "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next lesson > I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, and I > intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. > > Additionally, > I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a sleepshade > and > travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I > havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to > become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to agree > with, she said, "if your O/M > instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really > doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge > learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical > application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of > an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works > with clients under sleepshades." > > Thoughts? > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 22:41:21 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination Message-ID: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance leads the sighted domination. First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to scream "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid to ask questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to improve the public preception of blindness and blind people. Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share information, and what activities they participate in. How is a sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make mistakes? Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner until/unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how they have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I need I know if and how my blind partner can handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to take your word for it. I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted people must prove themselves as well.  If you don't want to be dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts will be reflected in my actions. One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to prove that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, it seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind person's word that they can do the task.  It seems to be one big secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it.  As a sighted person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind people feel they have the right to get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If you trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as everyone else. Personaly,  if someone doubts my skills and abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on the fact that I am "different". I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 23:03:12 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:03:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson References: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <63af025c0906171528s6757fee0p7423c0318fb0132e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001901c9ef9f$cb4e88d0$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> that sounds like the kind of instruction I had in high school. I had lessons something like once every 2 weeks. I feel I got a lot more out of it when I went to BISM because when I was in high school all she did with me was teach me a root that I never used. Looking back that was pointless. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamie Principato" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson > You sound like you're describing my old O/M instructory as well as the two > instructors I met prior to him and blatantly refused to work with for what > I > felt were very good reasons. That's every O/M instructor I've ever met > The NFB, in my opinion, has an excellent idea of how O/M *should* work, > and > from what I've heard they put it to extremely good using at their centers > for the blind. But to anyone's knowledge, has the NFB made any recent > efforts to take their philosophy further than teaching O/M skills to the > blind? Has anything been done to address this at it's core, at the > universities that educate and train the O/M instructors themselves? > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not >> impressed. >> I am not convinced >> that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude towards >> blindness to >> teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be >> able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to >> go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). >> >> Given >> the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach me >> under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal >> travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. >> Before I could turn >> around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, even >> though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual >> techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every >> block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made me >> take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see >> the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put >> on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also >> two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with >> her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably >> walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need >> a >> lesson on sighted O/M, I've >> been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to >> see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I >> am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me >> figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the landmarks >> that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes >> sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was >> telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other >> obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I >> approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I >> even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was >> doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess she >> just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to >> detect and avoid obstacles on my own. >> >> Towards the end of the >> lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told >> her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She >> seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like >> "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next lesson >> I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, and I >> intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. >> >> Additionally, >> I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a >> sleepshade >> and >> travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I >> havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to >> become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to agree >> with, she said, "if your O/M >> instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really >> doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge >> learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical >> application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of >> an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works >> with clients under sleepshades." >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 17 23:27:29 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] White cane law question Message-ID: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, Yesterday my O/M instructor gave me some conflicting advice that is implicitly linked to the white cane law. On one hand, she told me that while I am stopped  at an intersection and waiting to cross, that I should have the tip of my cane near my toes, and that I should extend the top part of my cane outwards towards the street so that drivers can clearly see the cane (without being able to run it over) and then they will know a blind guy is trying to cross the street. Techniclly, based on the white cane law, drivers  are supposed to yield to a blind guy with an extended cane at an intersection. Then, a few miniutes later she told me to never cross the street when a driver has stopped to let me cross. She told me to turn my back on the driver if need be. So, which is it? Do I stick the cane out forcing drivers to yield,  and then cross when they yield, or do I patiently wait at the intersection? It seems to me that I shouldn't stick my cane out there if I don't have any intention on crossing when I am yielded to. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From len at gatamundo.com Thu Jun 18 00:19:29 2009 From: len at gatamundo.com (Len Burns) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:19:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] White cane law question In-Reply-To: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A398811.90808@gatamundo.com> Jim, First of all, if you have not done so already, I would ask her to clarify the contradiction. I have never held my cane in that manner at an intersection, and in truth, I highly doubt drivers would frequently interpret this stance in the manner described. Those laws are well and good, but anybody who takes them seriously is not living in the real world. As regards not crossing if somebody stops to wait, I think that is a judgment call based on a number of factors. I cross a very busy four lane road every day in a location where there is a cross walk, but no signal. I have no illusions about the involved risks, but have been crossing this spot for almost 14 years now. In this location, if you never crossed when people stop for you, you would never cross at all. You do always need to keep in mind that sighted people by habit communicate a great deal with eye contact. This often includes whether or not somebody is about to step into an intersection. One thing one must be very careful is to give clear signals if one is going forward, and be ready to pull back if the signals get crossed. Another thing you have to watch, especially at an intersection such as I described above ist that although the people in one lane stop, does not mean the idiots in the next lane will do so as well. I encounter people daily who are in such a hurry that they will even go between lanes around the stopped cards to avoid waiting for a pedestrian. My philosophy is this. I presume that I am invisible until I am certain that I am seen. This has saved my life a lot of times over about 40 years of swinging a white cane. I have been hit three times, all probably avoidable if I had been more proactive, and none of them really my doing. I have been fortunate, I have gotten banged up, but never seriously injured. From each, I learned a lesson in proactivity that has saved me a lot of trouble at a later time. -Len Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > Yesterday my O/M instructor gave me some conflicting advice that is implicitly linked to the white cane law. On one hand, she told me that while I am stopped at an intersection and waiting to cross, that I should have the tip of my cane near my toes, and that I should extend the top part of my cane outwards towards the street so that drivers can clearly see the cane (without being able to run it over) and then they will know a blind guy is trying to cross the street. Techniclly, based on the white cane law, drivers are supposed to yield to a blind guy with an extended cane at an intersection. Then, a few miniutes later she told me to never cross the street when a driver has stopped to let me cross. She told me to turn my back on the driver if need be. > > So, which is it? Do I stick the cane out forcing drivers to yield, and then cross when they yield, or do I patiently wait at the intersection? It seems to me that I shouldn't stick my cane out there if I don't have any intention on crossing when I am yielded to. > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 00:22:01 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Test Message-ID: <917402.8778.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Just switching from digest to non-digest mode, and I wanted to see if I did it right. "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From hope.paulos at maine.edu Thu Jun 18 01:06:41 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:06:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] White cane law question References: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A398811.90808@gatamundo.com> Message-ID: <007DF3A0E0764461AC5EA5D6B6D50051@Hope> Wow. I have never been taught to hold the cane in this way. When I used a cane, I was taught to do an arc when I was about ready to cross the street, so that cars could see me. I agree totally with Len- try, if you can, to be certain that you are seen. Although I use a guide dog, now, and she's taught "intelligent disobedience", I don't step off of that curb without ensuring that people have seen me. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Len Burns" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] White cane law question > Jim, > > First of all, if you have not done so already, I would ask her to clarify > the contradiction. > > I have never held my cane in that manner at an intersection, and in truth, > I highly doubt drivers would frequently interpret this stance in the > manner described. Those laws are well and good, but anybody who takes > them seriously is not living in the real world. > > As regards not crossing if somebody stops to wait, I think that is a > judgment call based on a number of factors. I cross a very busy four lane > road every day in a location where there is a cross walk, but no signal. > I have no illusions about the involved risks, but have been crossing this > spot for almost 14 years now. In this location, if you never crossed when > people stop for you, you would never cross at all. You do always need to > keep in mind that sighted people by habit communicate a great deal with > eye contact. This often includes whether or not somebody is about to step > into an intersection. One thing one must be very careful is to give clear > signals if one is going forward, and be ready to pull back if the signals > get crossed. > > Another thing you have to watch, especially at an intersection such as I > described above ist that although the people in one lane stop, does not > mean the idiots in the next lane will do so as well. I encounter people > daily who are in such a hurry that they will even go between lanes around > the stopped cards to avoid waiting for a pedestrian. > > My philosophy is this. I presume that I am invisible until I am certain > that I am seen. This has saved my life a lot of times over about 40 years > of swinging a white cane. I have been hit three times, all probably > avoidable if I had been more proactive, and none of them really my doing. > I have been fortunate, I have gotten banged up, but never seriously > injured. From each, I learned a lesson in proactivity that has saved me a > lot of trouble at a later time. > > -Len > > Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, Yesterday my O/M instructor gave me some conflicting advice that >> is implicitly linked to the white cane law. On one hand, she told me that >> while I am stopped at an intersection and waiting to cross, that I >> should have the tip of my cane near my toes, and that I should extend the >> top part of my cane outwards towards the street so that drivers can >> clearly see the cane (without being able to run it over) and then they >> will know a blind guy is trying to cross the street. Techniclly, based on >> the white cane law, drivers are supposed to yield to a blind guy with an >> extended cane at an intersection. Then, a few miniutes later she told me >> to never cross the street when a driver has stopped to let me cross. She >> told me to turn my back on the driver if need be. >> >> So, which is it? Do I stick the cane out forcing drivers to yield, and >> then cross when they yield, or do I patiently wait at the intersection? >> It seems to me that I shouldn't stick my cane out there if I don't have >> any intention on crossing when I am yielded to. >> >> Thanks, Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn >> pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still >> unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine.edu From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 18 01:34:35 2009 From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:34:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Test In-Reply-To: <917402.8778.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <917402.8778.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jim, you did message came through > Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:22:01 -0700 > From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Test > > Just switching from digest to non-digest mode, and I wanted to see if I did it right. > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albertyoo1%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try bing_1x1 From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 01:44:14 2009 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:44:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] White cane law question In-Reply-To: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54f02f10906171844y22c782f7p5ed2aad1ce731ac8@mail.gmail.com> Jim, I'm not saying you should do this, since everybody's street crossing methods differ, but I'll tell you what my O N M instructor has me do when we're walking together to cross the streets. I've never done this alone, but the way she told me was to extend my cane out not so that drivers run it over, but enough for them to see that I'm trying to cross and they'll usually stop and let me cross with her beside me. Just my insight here. On 6/17/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > Yesterday my O/M instructor gave me some conflicting advice that is > implicitly linked to the white cane law. On one hand, she told me that while > I am stopped  at an intersection and waiting to cross, that I should have > the tip of my cane near my toes, and that I should extend the top part of my > cane outwards towards the street so that drivers can clearly see the cane > (without being able to run it over) and then they will know a blind guy is > trying to cross the street. Techniclly, based on the white cane law, > drivers  are supposed to yield to a blind guy with an extended cane at an > intersection. Then, a few miniutes later she told me to never cross the > street when a driver has stopped to let me cross. She told me to turn my > back on the driver if need be. > > So, which is it? Do I stick the cane out forcing drivers to yield,  and then > cross when they yield, or do I patiently wait at the intersection? It seems > to me that I shouldn't stick my cane out there if I don't have any intention > on crossing when I am yielded to. > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina From Laura.Weber at hs.utc.com Thu Jun 18 02:16:09 2009 From: Laura.Weber at hs.utc.com (Weber, Laura B HS) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:16:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Volunteer Opportunity at National Convention Message-ID: I'm looking for volunteers... Carol Castellano has asked me to coordinate the "A Universally Fun Time" session which will occur Monday, July 6, from 7:00-10:00 at the NFB national convention in Detroit. Noreen Grice, the presenter, needs 21 volunteers: 8 for the Tactile Jupiter Activity and 13 for the Solar System Tour. So far, I have 3 volunteers. The session is: A Universally Fun Time drop-in session for ages 5 - 13 Monday, July 6, 7:00 - 10:00 pm Cascade D, Courtyard Marriott We will need volunteers to arrive early for set up and to stay late for clean up. We can get more details and exact times to volunteers when we have their contact information, but a good estimate would be 6:30 - 10:30 p.m. Everyone will need to be at the briefing, but not everyone will have to stay to clean up. We may also meet for about 30 minutes sometime during the day of the session so that Noreen can brief volunteers. I will be there, along with the co-coordinator, Stephanie Kieszak-Holloway, but I'd still like 21 dedicated volunteers, so that she and I can be available to run around as needed. Please let me know if you'd like to volunteer or if you know someone who might. My e-mail is weberfam07 at comcast.net. Thanks! Laura Weber "Weber, Laura B HS" From sarah at growingstrong.org Thu Jun 18 02:20:18 2009 From: sarah at growingstrong.org (Sarah J. Blake) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:20:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] White cane law question References: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A398811.90808@gatamundo.com> Message-ID: Jim, You need to ask her to clarify this information. There are likely contextual factors involved regarding the type of of intersection. What I can tell you is that if the driver cannot see your cane, they cannot exercise necessary caution when you begin to cross. The ones who should yield to you are drivers who can right turn on red, not drivers who have a green light. Her other caution may have concerned situations where the sound of stopped traffic may make you think you have a green light when it is not truly possible to determine this; but you should ask her to clarify what she meant. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Len Burns" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] White cane law question > Jim, > > First of all, if you have not done so already, I would ask her to clarify > the contradiction. > > I have never held my cane in that manner at an intersection, and in truth, > I highly doubt drivers would frequently interpret this stance in the > manner described. Those laws are well and good, but anybody who takes > them seriously is not living in the real world. > > As regards not crossing if somebody stops to wait, I think that is a > judgment call based on a number of factors. I cross a very busy four lane > road every day in a location where there is a cross walk, but no signal. > I have no illusions about the involved risks, but have been crossing this > spot for almost 14 years now. In this location, if you never crossed when > people stop for you, you would never cross at all. You do always need to > keep in mind that sighted people by habit communicate a great deal with > eye contact. This often includes whether or not somebody is about to step > into an intersection. One thing one must be very careful is to give clear > signals if one is going forward, and be ready to pull back if the signals > get crossed. > > Another thing you have to watch, especially at an intersection such as I > described above ist that although the people in one lane stop, does not > mean the idiots in the next lane will do so as well. I encounter people > daily who are in such a hurry that they will even go between lanes around > the stopped cards to avoid waiting for a pedestrian. > > My philosophy is this. I presume that I am invisible until I am certain > that I am seen. This has saved my life a lot of times over about 40 years > of swinging a white cane. I have been hit three times, all probably > avoidable if I had been more proactive, and none of them really my doing. > I have been fortunate, I have gotten banged up, but never seriously > injured. From each, I learned a lesson in proactivity that has saved me a > lot of trouble at a later time. > > -Len > > Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, Yesterday my O/M instructor gave me some conflicting advice that >> is implicitly linked to the white cane law. On one hand, she told me that >> while I am stopped at an intersection and waiting to cross, that I >> should have the tip of my cane near my toes, and that I should extend the >> top part of my cane outwards towards the street so that drivers can >> clearly see the cane (without being able to run it over) and then they >> will know a blind guy is trying to cross the street. Techniclly, based on >> the white cane law, drivers are supposed to yield to a blind guy with an >> extended cane at an intersection. Then, a few miniutes later she told me >> to never cross the street when a driver has stopped to let me cross. She >> told me to turn my back on the driver if need be. >> >> So, which is it? Do I stick the cane out forcing drivers to yield, and >> then cross when they yield, or do I patiently wait at the intersection? >> It seems to me that I shouldn't stick my cane out there if I don't have >> any intention on crossing when I am yielded to. >> >> Thanks, Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn >> pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still >> unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah%40growingstrong.org I'm protected by SpamBrave http://www.spambrave.com/ From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Thu Jun 18 02:31:25 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:31:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson Message-ID: <20090618023125.30707.29170@web3.serotek.com> Hi. As of right now, there is only one university program that directly teaches NFB philosophy to its students. Generally, students who are directly interested in our brand of philosophy tend to attend Louisiana Tech, and those who aren't generally don't. However, I think that our philosophy is slowly (and I mean VERY slowly) starting to creep into other university programs as our trained professionals interact with other trained professionals in the field. More professionals currently in the field with inflence on student populations are also reading our stuff and getting connected with our philosophy. Some folks are starting to see that it makes sense. But in terms of a total integration of our philosophy into non-NFB university programs? Nope. At this point,many in the blindness field, for all the progress we've made, are still relatively uncertain about the usefulness, safety, and practicality of our philosophy. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > You sound like you're describing my old O/M instructory as well as the two > instructors I met prior to him and blatantly refused to work with for what I > felt were very good reasons. That's every O/M instructor I've ever met > The NFB, in my opinion, has an excellent idea of how O/M *should* work, and > from what I've heard they put it to extremely good using at their centers > for the blind. But to anyone's knowledge, has the NFB made any recent > efforts to take their philosophy further than teaching O/M skills to the > blind? Has anything been done to address this at it's core, at the > universities that educate and train the O/M instructors themselves? > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, >> I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not impressed. >> I am not convinced >> that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude towards >> blindness to >> teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be >> able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to >> go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). >> Given >> the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach me >> under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal >> travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. >> Before I could turn >> around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, even >> though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual >> techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every >> block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made me >> take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see >> the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put >> on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also >> two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with >> her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably >> walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need a >> lesson on sighted O/M, I've >> been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to >> see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I >> am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me >> figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the landmarks >> that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes >> sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was >> telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other >> obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I >> approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I >> even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was >> doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess she >> just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to >> detect and avoid obstacles on my own. >> Towards the end of the >> lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told >> her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She >> seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like >> "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next lesson >> I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, and I >> intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. >> Additionally, >> I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a sleepshade >> and >> travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I >> havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to >> become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to agree >> with, she said, "if your O/M >> instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really >> doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge >> learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical >> application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of >> an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works >> with clients under sleepshades." >> Thoughts? >> Jim >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dandrews at visi.com Thu Jun 18 02:42:40 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:42:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <4A3887D7.3000309@aol.com> References: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> <4A3887D7.3000309@aol.com> Message-ID: I don't know exactly, but for an embosser in its class, Romeo, Juliet etc., it is smaller, lighter and quieter (a little.) Dave At 01:06 AM 6/17/2009, you wrote: >Can you estimate the size and weight of the Index Basic D? > >thanks, >Haben > >David Andrews wrote: >>The Tiger embossers should be quiet as they are not grossly >>mechanical, the way others are Nothing is going to be completely quiet though. >> >>Fast is a relative term, the fastest embossers are in the $30,000 >>to $100,000 range, and I don't think you can afford those. If you >>can I will be your tech guy! >> >>The index basic D has improved, and we have had good luck with them. >> >>Also, the Braille quality on the Tiger isn't its strongest point, >>so make sure you have seen it first. It is best at graphics, and >>graphics/text mixes. >> >>Dave >> >>At 07:12 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >> >>>Hello, >>> >>>I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which to >>>emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers are >>>among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet they >>>are. Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger embossers >>>compares to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in the Index >>>Basic D since it is very portable, but I'm not sure whether it can >>>handle large print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC in 2001 states >>>that Index embossers are temperamental and prone to jamming and >>>breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? >>> >>>thanks, >>>Haben >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >>> >>> >>>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >>>signature database 4157 (20090615) __________ >>> >>>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>> >>>http://www.eset.com >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com > > >__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >signature database 4164 (20090617) __________ > >The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > >http://www.eset.com > > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Thu Jun 18 02:53:44 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:53:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination In-Reply-To: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090617225344.ccnhife4qosok0wo@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Jim, You raise some interesting points as usual. I am probably the last person, (or one of them) to scream sighted domination. I get what you're saying though. I think, for me personally, it depends on the situation. If someone asks me a question, I will always be polite. Even if it is the drunk guy in residence asking me to teach him Braille once he's sober ... yes I didn't actually think that would happen either Even if someone doesn't ask for proof, I still try to either demonstrate a skill (if possible) or explain explicitly how I complete that skill. I think you're right in not taking someone's word for what they can do, and hopefully all the proof anyone needs will come through actions as you go about your daily routine with that person. I'm sorry if that made no sense whatsoever. Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance > leads the sighted domination. > > First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are > ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, > education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is > to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. > Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to > scream "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid > to ask questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to > improve the public preception of blindness and blind people. > > Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining > relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share > information, and what activities they participate in. How is a > sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed > to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless > they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make > mistakes? > > Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not > have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) > in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am > not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent > until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person > through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their > friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind > person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are > indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not > going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner > until/unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how > they have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination > issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death > consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I > need I know if and how my blind partner can > handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I > have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be > done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to > take your word for it. > > I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, > and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is > not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted > people must prove themselves as well.  If you don't want to be > dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle > yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be > somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts > will be reflected in my actions. > > One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people > accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to > prove that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, > it seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind > person's word that they can do the task.  It seems to be one big > secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an > employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some > blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do > something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it.  As a sighted > person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your > basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of > certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want > to be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right > to know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind > people feel they have the right to > get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, > whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions > without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If > you trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and > handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as > everyone else. Personaly,  if someone doubts my skills and > abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I > either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to > piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself > by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on > the fact that I am "different". > > I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but > these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. > > Jim > > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From jmatte28 at comcast.net Thu Jun 18 02:54:35 2009 From: jmatte28 at comcast.net (jonathan matte) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:54:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] another edition of anything goes airs tomorrow June 18 Message-ID: <17AEB9622D624673B3EDEF56B9084BC6@homexpuser> Hello there everyone! If you happened to miss the maiden broadcast of Anything goes which premiered this Tuesday on radio 360 then you'll be happy to know that it will be returning tomorrow for another all new broadcast. The theme of tomorrow's music will be an exploration of music from 1951 through 1952. We've got some fun songs, novelty goodies, and of course for all of you romantics out their we have some great balads so if your just having one of those mornings where your finding it hard getting in gear for work, have to wake up with the kids and get them off to school or summer camp, perhaps you have a college thesis and are on your sixth cup of coffee perhaps this is the perfect show to ease you in to your morning. The show starts around 6 A.M. and will probably go till sometime in the 9 or 10 o'clock hour since there are no other personalities ahead of me tomorrow morning. So join me Jon Matte for another edition of anything goes. to listen at 6 A.M. head on over to www.radio360.us and follow the options for listening there are a few alternative ways to listen so if one doesn't work feel free to check out all of them. One of them I'm sure is bound to work for you and I know you'll have alot of fun. Also we'll be doing a digital technology segment tomorrow and talking about an experience I had with Sea Gate the maker of external hard drives and we may even talk a little bit about new digital talking book system that NLS is launtching in September. You never know what to expect on anything goes because when you expect the unexpected the unexpected will never happen. Also during the show I can take requests by email or by instant messenger. My aim screen name is tvvault82 or you can email them to me at jmatte22 at comcast.net So come on by and enjoy the show Regards Jon Matte host of anything goes on your internet radio dial radio 360 where variety matters. From iamantonio at cox.net Thu Jun 18 03:20:08 2009 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 23:20:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] White cane law question References: <247914.45173.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Law or no law, here are some thoughts. First, I never thought that sort of pushing the top of my cane would signal anything to a driver. First time I hear of it, so don't know the origin of it. I'm trying to think of several instances where either waving a driver on, or signaling I'm next would be called for. First, even though the pedestrian has the right of way, and drivers may be aware of this, and kind enough to stop for you, realize it's not always in your best interest to take one driver's kindness as signal that you are safe to cross. You should always be the one to decide when it's safe for you to cross. We are all taught to cross with some level of parallell traffic at busy intersections. I tipically stick to this cardinal rule, even when things are quiet, and pedestrians tell me it's safe to cross. After all they can see, and they know you have the green, and that it is your time to cross safely, right? Well, try that when traffic is quiet, and you will likely vear into a lane of traffic where cars will soon begin their speedy course. Now you are lost, confused, and not safe because you did not have the sound clues that help a blind travelor . The same goes for a driver trying to get you to cross. If streets are busy, and I'm sure to get lots of traffic sounds, I'll always wait for those sounds. Ok, unless I am in a hurry, and I take another pedestrian's arm to cross right with them. the times when I signal by way of cane movement include crossings not at intersections, at an all quiet, or where there is no cross walk, and I get an "all quiet" opportunity. I do this near my house all the time. It's a couple of blocks away from a highway, and I figure it's safe to cross when there is no car coming. I stick my cane out there, and walk into the street. I may even keep the cane extended in front of me for a second if I am uncertain of the all quiet, then go about completing the crossing. The extended cane, and me walking briskly across the street is enough to tell drivers I am headed across, and they can see it from far away. Either I'll make the crossing in enough time, or they'll slow down to allow me extra time, my version of reasonable accomodations, grin. I realize this all quiet crossing thing may be best to try when one is more confortable crossing, but if you are going to be traveling a lot, and you're blind, you can count on using this technique at times. Right on red turners are notorious for yealding, and you'll often be doing a little dance with these drivers, one trying to figure out if the other is ready to go first. Just make up your mind, and communicate it by your actions. Either get to crossing, or stand back. Good luck Jim as you continue learning your cane technique. Antonio Guimaraes If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you. http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169 Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "MAB List" ; "NABS mail list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:27 PM Subject: [nabs-l] White cane law question Hey all, Yesterday my O/M instructor gave me some conflicting advice that is implicitly linked to the white cane law. On one hand, she told me that while I am stopped at an intersection and waiting to cross, that I should have the tip of my cane near my toes, and that I should extend the top part of my cane outwards towards the street so that drivers can clearly see the cane (without being able to run it over) and then they will know a blind guy is trying to cross the street. Techniclly, based on the white cane law, drivers are supposed to yield to a blind guy with an extended cane at an intersection. Then, a few miniutes later she told me to never cross the street when a driver has stopped to let me cross. She told me to turn my back on the driver if need be. So, which is it? Do I stick the cane out forcing drivers to yield, and then cross when they yield, or do I patiently wait at the intersection? It seems to me that I shouldn't stick my cane out there if I don't have any intention on crossing when I am yielded to. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 04:28:24 2009 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:28:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson In-Reply-To: <20090618023125.30707.29170@web3.serotek.com> References: <20090618023125.30707.29170@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: <63af025c0906172128n4e9328f6ucac18d2f1ac20c6d@mail.gmail.com> I just don't see a real shift in philosophy occurring until the NFB has begun influencing the curriculum in more than one university. Yes, it is very true that right now there are *many* in the blindness field that feel their way is better and cast doubts on ours, but I think this is mainly because their way is the way that they and all their colleagues were taught. Have you ever met a little child who will ask his mother for homework help only to protest the easy solution mother showed him because "That's not how teacher did it!" I think this mentality tends to stick with us long into adulthood, though perhaps in a more mature context. Preconceived notions aside, I think the majority of blindness professions would begin to shift towards NFB philosophy a lot more if the majority of universities supported and taught it. If more universities began to teach the importance of sleepshade training and universal navigation skills as well as how to properly incorporate these into a mobility lesson, more O&M instructors would believe that this is a valuable part of their instruction that they should be putting to good use. On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Jedi wrote: > Hi. > > As of right now, there is only one university program that directly teaches > NFB philosophy to its students. Generally, students who are directly > interested in our brand of philosophy tend to attend Louisiana Tech, and > those who aren't generally don't. However, I think that our philosophy is > slowly (and I mean VERY slowly) starting to creep into other university > programs as our trained professionals interact with other trained > professionals in the field. More professionals currently in the field with > inflence on student populations are also reading our stuff and getting > connected with our philosophy. Some folks are starting to see that it makes > sense. But in terms of a total integration of our philosophy into non-NFB > university programs? Nope. At this point,many in the blindness field, for > all the progress we've made, are still relatively uncertain about the > usefulness, safety, and practicality of our philosophy. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > > Original message: > > You sound like you're describing my old O/M instructory as well as the two >> instructors I met prior to him and blatantly refused to work with for what >> I >> felt were very good reasons. That's every O/M instructor I've ever met >> The NFB, in my opinion, has an excellent idea of how O/M *should* work, >> and >> from what I've heard they put it to extremely good using at their centers >> for the blind. But to anyone's knowledge, has the NFB made any recent >> efforts to take their philosophy further than teaching O/M skills to the >> blind? Has anything been done to address this at it's core, at the >> universities that educate and train the O/M instructors themselves? >> > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 3:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: >> > > Hey all, >>> >> > I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not impressed. >>> I am not convinced >>> that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude towards >>> blindness to >>> teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be >>> able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to >>> go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). >>> >> > Given >>> the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach me >>> under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal >>> travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. >>> Before I could turn >>> around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, even >>> though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual >>> techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every >>> block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made me >>> take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see >>> the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put >>> on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also >>> two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with >>> her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably >>> walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need >>> a >>> lesson on sighted O/M, I've >>> been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to >>> see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I >>> am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me >>> figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the landmarks >>> that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes >>> sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was >>> telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other >>> obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I >>> approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I >>> even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was >>> doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess she >>> just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to >>> detect and avoid obstacles on my own. >>> >> > Towards the end of the >>> lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told >>> her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She >>> seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like >>> "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next lesson >>> I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, and I >>> intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. >>> >> > Additionally, >>> I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a >>> sleepshade >>> and >>> travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I >>> havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to >>> become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to agree >>> with, she said, "if your O/M >>> instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really >>> doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge >>> learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical >>> application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of >>> an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works >>> with clients under sleepshades." >>> >> > Thoughts? >>> >> > Jim >>> >> > "From compromise and things half done, >>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>> And when at last the fight is won, >>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >> > _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 05:06:41 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] First solo trip under sleepshades Message-ID: <522471.94941.qm@web65714.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, Well, my fear of going it alone undersleepshades lasted about 16 hours. Since I was going it alone, and entirly responsible for my safety, I was a bit jumpy and quick to take of the sleepshade at the first moment I felt something might not be right. More often than not, when I took off the blindfold, I was fairly well on target, and had I left the blindfold on, I probably would have figured it out. I should trust my instinct and cane more. I did however trip off a few curbs, wander out into the middle of a residential street via an extrodinaraly wide driveway, and I also had a few crooked street crossings. I am having a hard time determining where the round corners square off. And of course I got lost. I have yet to not get lost when traveling under sunglases or sleepshades, and it is starting to piss me off. I know I can do this; its not that hard. I just can't figure out where or how I am getting turned around. For example, I went to the gym under sleepshades, the route requires me to go west several blocks, south a few blocks, and west a few more blocks. The streets running east-west are lettered (A, B, C), and the streets runing north south are numbered (8,8,10). There is no reason I should be getting lost on such a simple route, and with such a simple street name system. I walked for about 6-7 blocks and lifted my sleepshade to verify where I was, and I was somehow only two blocks from my house. Very frustrating indead. I had one kid ask me if I was wearing a sleepshade because I was pretending to be blind for a day; I breifly explained what I was doing as I walked. Of course some A-hole had to blast their horn for no reason as I was approaching an intersection that I knew was there, that scared the crap out of me. All and all, not to bad for my first time out alone. Jimj "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 05:17:40 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:17:40 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination In-Reply-To: <20090617225344.ccnhife4qosok0wo@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090617225344.ccnhife4qosok0wo@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: Hi Jim and all, Jim you raise some interesting points about the struggle we often face in having to prove ourselves and our abilities to the sighted. It’s helped me to better understandone factor that separates the people who “get it” from those who don’t. As you demonstrate, much of what determines the outcome of our interactions comes from people’s initial assumptions and expectations about us. Some people start out by assuming that we are helpless, can’t do the simplest of tasks or at least that everything we do is different from everything sighted people do. These people will not treat us with acceptance (“like one of the guys”) until they observe behavior from us showing that we can, in fact, do things. I’d like to call this the “ground-up” approach because expectations start at the bottom and are gradually adjusted upwards as we prove our capabilities. Jim, your O&M instructor is a great representation of the ground-up pattern of expectation. It’s clear that she doesn’t expect you to do much on your own and even less under sleepshades. Eventually she might raise her expectations a little, but right now she is stuck on the ground which is causing you to have to fight an uphill battle (literally) just to get quality education. On the other hand, there are those sighted people in our lives who start out assuming that we are capable of participating in all the same activities as they, even if they don’t have full information about how we do these things. These people, upon meeting you, will treat you like “one of the guys” or “one of the girls” without giving blindness much attention. As long as we continue to live up to these high expectations, full acceptance is possible. If it turns out that we in fact can’t do some things as efficiently or well as originally expected, then expectations might be adjusted down a little to reflect this. But ultimately, it seems that people who start out with high expectations will eventually expect more from us than those who start with low ones. I call this latter approach the “sky-down” approach and I think it’s representative of our thinking in the NFB and of the attitudes conveyed at our training centers. We admit there’s a few things that the blind can’t do because of current technological limitations (like driving or using certain computer applications independently), but on the whole, there’s many more things we can do than things we can’t. At our training centers we start with the highest possible expectations. When instructors at NFB training centers give challenging assignments, they assume that students can complete them successfully. If the student is struggling, the student might be given a more simple assignment until basic skills are mastered, and then work back up to the more difficult assignment. But ultimately, the student will learn and be challenged more than if all the assignments were easy. In the hiking example, we can assume that a blind hiking partner won’t be able to navigate or keep up safely, and continue to assume that unless the partner proves otherwise. But why not take the opposite approach? Why not assume the partner can do it, and then change our minds only if we see actual evidence that the blind partner is having a tough time? Of course, the ground-up approach is safer and more conservative. It’s safer to assume the blind person can’t do something rather than assuming they can and then being proven wrong. But sometimes the low expectations themselves that initiate this line of thinking aren’t justified. And the problem is that low expectations tend to perpetuate themselves. As long as we’re in “climbing” mode and trying to show off what we can do to elevate our status in other people’s eyes, we’re going to doubt our abilities and not do as well as if we start at the top. And the tragic thing is that in cases like your O&M instructor, we might not get a chance to climb at all. If a teacher is constantly telling you where curbs are and trying to keep you out of trouble, you never have any opportunity to change her expectations. Unfortunately we can’t control whether another person views us with a ground-up or a sky-down perspective. We can, however, work on being the best blind people that we can be in order to give people reason to expect as much out of us as they possibly can. Arielle On 6/18/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > You raise some interesting points as usual. > > I am probably the last person, (or one of them) to scream sighted > domination. I get what you're saying though. I think, for me > personally, it depends on the situation. If someone asks me a > question, I will always be polite. Even if it is the drunk guy in > residence asking me to teach him Braille once he's sober ... yes I > didn't actually think that would happen either Even if > someone doesn't ask for proof, I still try to either demonstrate a > skill (if possible) or explain explicitly how I complete that skill. I > think you're right in not taking someone's word for what they can do, > and hopefully all the proof anyone needs will come through actions as > you go about your daily routine with that person. > I'm sorry if that made no sense whatsoever. > Sarah > > > Quoting Jim Reed : > >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to >> scream "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid >> to ask questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to >> improve the public preception of blindness and blind people. >> >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner >> until/unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how >> they have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >> need I know if and how my blind partner can >> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well.  If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to >> prove that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, >> it seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task.  It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it.  As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want >> to be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right >> to know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >> people feel they have the right to >> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If >> you trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly,  if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> >> Jim >> >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From nefamphetamine at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 06:48:25 2009 From: nefamphetamine at gmail.com (Nefertiti Matos Olivares) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:48:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination In-Reply-To: <20090617225344.ccnhife4qosok0wo@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090617225344.ccnhife4qosok0wo@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <3d644bc30906172348j2adee786m62d7407908ef9f0d@mail.gmail.com> I could not agree with you more, Jim. Now it’s just a matter of getting the sighted to stop doing the freak show stair (and various other odd behaviors) long enough to care to ask… Nef On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > You raise some interesting points as usual. > > I am probably the last person, (or one of them) to scream sighted > domination. I get what you're saying though. I think, for me > personally, it depends on the situation. If someone asks me a > question, I will always be polite. Even if it is the drunk guy in > residence asking me to teach him Braille once he's sober ... yes I > didn't actually think that would happen either Even if > someone doesn't ask for proof, I still try to either demonstrate a > skill (if possible) or explain explicitly how I complete that skill. I > think you're right in not taking someone's word for what they can do, > and hopefully all the proof anyone needs will come through actions as > you go about your daily routine with that person. > I'm sorry if that made no sense whatsoever. > Sarah > > > Quoting Jim Reed : > >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to >> scream "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid >> to ask questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to >> improve the public preception of blindness and blind people. >> >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner >> until/unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how >> they have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >> need I know if and how my blind partner can >> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well.  If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to >> prove that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, >> it seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task.  It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it.  As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want >> to be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right >> to know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >> people feel they have the right to >> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If >> you trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly,  if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> >> Jim >> >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nefamphetamine%40gmail.com > From jp100 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 18 07:05:35 2009 From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:05:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question Message-ID: <006e01c9efe3$2e38f870$8aaae950$@net> Howdy, I know there's no real list regarding this subject, but I'm wanting to talk with some people who are using the Verizon network for cell phone service. My contract with Sprint will end on June 30th. It is with Sprint. I may want to change to a phone that can have good speech software. I'd love the KNFB reader, but it is so expensive and I don't think I could use Verizon with it, right? Thanks for any information you can provide. Jim From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 07:19:04 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination Message-ID: <364529.36440.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Arielle, I may have used the wrong word, but I can't really think of a better word that "prove". Its not like I'm going to be standing there with a checklist making you do tricks, when I say "prove yourself", I am referring to the constant process that goes on throughout society of people acting, and then being judged based on their actions. I am not setting low expectations, I am allowing them to determine where my expectations should be. Also, by allowing the actions of the blind person to dictate my expectations, many basic questions will be answered in the very first meeting. But don't forget, at the same time I am asking questions about you, you are going to be asking similar questions about me. This is not any form of negitive prejudice, instead, this is just the natural process human beings go through in determining who we want to associate with, be friends with, or have a relationship with.  It is true that I may have a little less confidence in a blind person's ability to do X, but I am still going to give them a chance to do X, and I will judge them accordingly. For the blind hiking partner example, that "first meeting" I spoke of above would involve me, a blind person, and at least one other person going on a backpacking trip. During the trip, it will naturally become quite clear who can or can't keep up, and who is and isn't capable (sighted or not, were all equal right?). The challenge for the blind person is getting the opportunity to prove yourself in the first place. And that's where prejudice and ignorance can play a role in inhibiting blind people's freedom and opportunities.  Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Wed, 6/17/09, Arielle Silverman wrote: From: Arielle Silverman Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009, 11:17 PM Hi Jim and all, Jim you raise some interesting points about the struggle we often face in having to prove ourselves and our abilities to the sighted. It’s helped me to better understandone factor that separates the people who “get it” from those who don’t. As you demonstrate, much of what determines the outcome of our interactions comes from people’s initial assumptions and expectations about us. Some people start out by assuming that we are helpless, can’t do the simplest of tasks or at least that everything we do is different from everything sighted people do. These people will not treat us with acceptance (“like one of the guys”) until they observe behavior from us showing that we can, in fact, do things. I’d like to call this the “ground-up” approach because expectations start at the bottom and are gradually adjusted upwards as we prove our capabilities. Jim, your O&M instructor is a great representation of the ground-up pattern of expectation. It’s clear that she doesn’t expect you to do much on your own and even less under sleepshades. Eventually she might raise her expectations a little, but right now she is stuck on the ground which is causing you to have to fight an uphill battle (literally) just to get quality education. On the other hand, there are those sighted people in our lives who start out assuming that we are capable of participating in all the same activities as they, even if they don’t have full information about how we do these things. These  people, upon meeting you, will treat you like “one of the guys” or “one of the girls”  without giving blindness much attention.  As long as we continue to live up to these high expectations, full acceptance is possible.  If it turns out that we in fact can’t do some things as efficiently or well as originally expected, then expectations might be adjusted down a little to reflect this. But ultimately, it seems that people who start out with high expectations will eventually expect more from us than those who start with low ones. I call this latter approach the “sky-down” approach and I think it’s representative of our thinking in the NFB and of the attitudes conveyed at our training centers. We admit there’s a few things that the blind can’t do because of current technological limitations (like driving or using certain computer applications independently), but on the whole, there’s many more things we can do than things we can’t. At our training centers we start with the highest possible expectations. When instructors at NFB training centers give challenging assignments, they assume that students can complete them successfully. If the student is struggling, the student might be given a more simple assignment until basic skills are mastered, and then work back up to the more difficult assignment. But ultimately, the student will learn and be challenged more than if all the assignments were easy. In the hiking example, we can assume that a blind hiking partner won’t be able to navigate or keep up safely, and continue to assume that unless the partner proves otherwise. But why not take the opposite approach? Why not assume the partner can do it, and then change our minds only if we see actual evidence  that the blind partner is having a tough time? Of course, the ground-up approach is safer and more conservative. It’s safer to assume the blind person can’t do something rather than assuming they can and then being proven wrong. But sometimes the low expectations themselves that initiate this line of thinking aren’t justified. And the problem is that low expectations tend to perpetuate themselves. As long as we’re in “climbing” mode and trying to show off what we can do to elevate our status in other people’s eyes, we’re going to doubt our abilities and not do as well as if we start at the top. And the tragic thing is that in cases like your O&M instructor, we might not get a chance to climb at all. If a teacher is constantly telling you where curbs are and trying  to keep you out of trouble, you never have any opportunity to change her expectations. Unfortunately we can’t control whether another person views us with a ground-up or a sky-down perspective. We can, however, work on being the best blind people that we can be in order to give people reason to expect as much out of us as they possibly can. Arielle On 6/18/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > You raise some interesting points as usual. > > I am probably the last person, (or one of them) to scream sighted > domination. I get what you're saying though. I think, for me > personally, it depends on the situation. If someone asks me a > question, I will always be polite. Even if it is the drunk guy in > residence asking me to teach him Braille once he's sober ... yes I > didn't actually think that would happen either Even if > someone doesn't ask for proof, I still try to either demonstrate a > skill (if possible) or explain explicitly how I complete that skill. I > think you're right in not taking someone's word for what they can do, > and hopefully all the proof anyone needs will come through actions as > you go about your daily routine with that person. > I'm sorry if that made no sense whatsoever. > Sarah > > > Quoting Jim Reed : > >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >>  Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to >> scream  "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid >> to ask  questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to >> improve the  public preception of blindness and blind people. >> >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >>  to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >>  they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner >> until/unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how >> they have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >>  issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >>  need I know if and how my blind partner can >>  handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well.  If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >>  accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to >> prove  that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, >> it  seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task.  It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it.  As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >>  certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want >> to  be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right >> to  know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >>  people feel they have the right to >>  get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >>  without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If >> you  trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >>  handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly,  if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >>  piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >>  by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> >> Jim >> >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 07:32:35 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Message-ID: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same function as a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's wearing sleep shades? (No offense meant to anyone) Thanks, Jim  "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From marrie12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 07:37:50 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:37:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question In-Reply-To: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <918D43ADCD00440A82327153F25ECE47@sacomputer> Hey! I like the sleepshades! Theya re to me very comfertable and they help when you are chopping onions. Wallmart might have something but they itch like crazy. You could also maybe where some dark glasses or something like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:33 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey all, Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same function as a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's wearing sleep shades? (No offense meant to anyone) Thanks, Jim  "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 07:48:05 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 00:48:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] First solo trip under sleepshades In-Reply-To: <522471.94941.qm@web65714.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <522471.94941.qm@web65714.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <344CC40849424803AF2262FEA44A539E@sacomputer> Hey good job! I remember one time I was traveling in sleepshades and got so turned around I ended up ont eh other side of town. I now know what happened but at the time I was trying to keep my head. I did it and I didn't lift my shades at all. I wanted to but I kept trucking. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:07 PM To: NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] First solo trip under sleepshades Hey all, Well, my fear of going it alone undersleepshades lasted about 16 hours. Since I was going it alone, and entirly responsible for my safety, I was a bit jumpy and quick to take of the sleepshade at the first moment I felt something might not be right. More often than not, when I took off the blindfold, I was fairly well on target, and had I left the blindfold on, I probably would have figured it out. I should trust my instinct and cane more. I did however trip off a few curbs, wander out into the middle of a residential street via an extrodinaraly wide driveway, and I also had a few crooked street crossings. I am having a hard time determining where the round corners square off. And of course I got lost. I have yet to not get lost when traveling under sunglases or sleepshades, and it is starting to piss me off. I know I can do this; its not that hard. I just can't figure out where or how I am getting turned around. For example, I went to the gym under sleepshades, the route requires me to go west several blocks, south a few blocks, and west a few more blocks. The streets running east-west are lettered (A, B, C), and the streets runing north south are numbered (8,8,10). There is no reason I should be getting lost on such a simple route, and with such a simple street name system. I walked for about 6-7 blocks and lifted my sleepshade to verify where I was, and I was somehow only two blocks from my house. Very frustrating indead. I had one kid ask me if I was wearing a sleepshade because I was pretending to be blind for a day; I breifly explained what I was doing as I walked. Of course some A-hole had to blast their horn for no reason as I was approaching an intersection that I knew was there, that scared the crap out of me. All and all, not to bad for my first time out alone. Jimj "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From ginisd at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 18 08:47:40 2009 From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 01:47:40 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Message-ID: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 10:38:33 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:38:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [Njabs-talk] Accessibility Problems with Google Products? Message-ID: <005401c9f000$ee7cc3b0$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> > Hello all! > As some of you may know, I am currently at Google in Mountain View, CA > completing a 10 week software development internship. Tomorrow, Thursday, > June 18, an accessibility "intergrouplet" within Google will be conducting > a > large-scale testing session in which employees volunteering their time can > identify and report accessibility issues to the teams responsible for > managing various Google applications. If anyone has any issues with a > Google application, this would be your chance to get it on the table and > have it fixed! The accessibility issues that will be addressed can span > accross all Google products including: Google Search, GMail, Google > Documents, Google Photos / Picasa, Google Sites, Google Reader, and even > YouTube. If you are having a problem, or are frustrated with a product or > service offered by Google, I encourage you to contact me ASAP so that I > may > address it at the event tomorrow. > > Please email me directly at my corporate address: > caseyburkhardt at google.com. > The more detailed you can make your problem description, the more easily I > can identify the issue and ensure it is reported properly to the > individuals > responsible. > > As always, Google welcomes feedback of any kind. If there is something, > in > terms of accessibility, that you like in a Google product and feel that it > would be useful in other products, please let me know this as well. Also, > please feel free to post this message on any other list that would benefit > from this information. > > Thanks, > Casey Burkhardt > From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 10:45:37 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:45:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Test References: <917402.8778.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007601c9f001$eb2565e0$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> It came threw. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "NABS mail list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 8:22 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Test > Just switching from digest to non-digest mode, and I wanted to see if I > did it right. > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 10:49:17 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:49:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><20090617225344.ccnhife4qosok0wo@webmail.utoronto.ca> <3d644bc30906172348j2adee786m62d7407908ef9f0d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008e01c9f002$6f009600$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> I agree with you on that one! It anoy's me because instead of stairing at me they could just come up to me and ask me something. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nefertiti Matos Olivares" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:48 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination I could not agree with you more, Jim. Now it’s just a matter of getting the sighted to stop doing the freak show stair (and various other odd behaviors) long enough to care to ask… Nef On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > You raise some interesting points as usual. > > I am probably the last person, (or one of them) to scream sighted > domination. I get what you're saying though. I think, for me > personally, it depends on the situation. If someone asks me a > question, I will always be polite. Even if it is the drunk guy in > residence asking me to teach him Braille once he's sober ... yes I > didn't actually think that would happen either Even if > someone doesn't ask for proof, I still try to either demonstrate a > skill (if possible) or explain explicitly how I complete that skill. I > think you're right in not taking someone's word for what they can do, > and hopefully all the proof anyone needs will come through actions as > you go about your daily routine with that person. > I'm sorry if that made no sense whatsoever. > Sarah > > > Quoting Jim Reed : > >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to >> scream "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid >> to ask questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to >> improve the public preception of blindness and blind people. >> >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner >> until/unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how >> they have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >> need I know if and how my blind partner can >> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well. If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to >> prove that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, >> it seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task. It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it. As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want >> to be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right >> to know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >> people feel they have the right to >> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If >> you trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly, if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> >> Jim >> >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nefamphetamine%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 10:56:24 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:56:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><20090617225344.ccnhife4qosok0wo@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <009201c9f003$6c9a00d0$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Would the same go for a rehab counselor who told you that you couldn't go to school for the vary thing you want to do? The counselor's reason being that you won't be able to understand what the teacher is talking about and that it is going to be vary hard? After hereing this you tell them that yes you know it is going to be hard? I had to tell this person that yes I know it is going to be difficult but how am I going to know for my self if I can handle it? Sometimes I feel that if you are a blind person with an addissional disability people tend to use that against you to try to prove that you are not capable of doing certain things. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination Hi Jim and all, Jim you raise some interesting points about the struggle we often face in having to prove ourselves and our abilities to the sighted. It’s helped me to better understandone factor that separates the people who “get it” from those who don’t. As you demonstrate, much of what determines the outcome of our interactions comes from people’s initial assumptions and expectations about us. Some people start out by assuming that we are helpless, can’t do the simplest of tasks or at least that everything we do is different from everything sighted people do. These people will not treat us with acceptance (“like one of the guys”) until they observe behavior from us showing that we can, in fact, do things. I’d like to call this the “ground-up” approach because expectations start at the bottom and are gradually adjusted upwards as we prove our capabilities. Jim, your O&M instructor is a great representation of the ground-up pattern of expectation. It’s clear that she doesn’t expect you to do much on your own and even less under sleepshades. Eventually she might raise her expectations a little, but right now she is stuck on the ground which is causing you to have to fight an uphill battle (literally) just to get quality education. On the other hand, there are those sighted people in our lives who start out assuming that we are capable of participating in all the same activities as they, even if they don’t have full information about how we do these things. These people, upon meeting you, will treat you like “one of the guys” or “one of the girls” without giving blindness much attention. As long as we continue to live up to these high expectations, full acceptance is possible. If it turns out that we in fact can’t do some things as efficiently or well as originally expected, then expectations might be adjusted down a little to reflect this. But ultimately, it seems that people who start out with high expectations will eventually expect more from us than those who start with low ones. I call this latter approach the “sky-down” approach and I think it’s representative of our thinking in the NFB and of the attitudes conveyed at our training centers. We admit there’s a few things that the blind can’t do because of current technological limitations (like driving or using certain computer applications independently), but on the whole, there’s many more things we can do than things we can’t. At our training centers we start with the highest possible expectations. When instructors at NFB training centers give challenging assignments, they assume that students can complete them successfully. If the student is struggling, the student might be given a more simple assignment until basic skills are mastered, and then work back up to the more difficult assignment. But ultimately, the student will learn and be challenged more than if all the assignments were easy. In the hiking example, we can assume that a blind hiking partner won’t be able to navigate or keep up safely, and continue to assume that unless the partner proves otherwise. But why not take the opposite approach? Why not assume the partner can do it, and then change our minds only if we see actual evidence that the blind partner is having a tough time? Of course, the ground-up approach is safer and more conservative. It’s safer to assume the blind person can’t do something rather than assuming they can and then being proven wrong. But sometimes the low expectations themselves that initiate this line of thinking aren’t justified. And the problem is that low expectations tend to perpetuate themselves. As long as we’re in “climbing” mode and trying to show off what we can do to elevate our status in other people’s eyes, we’re going to doubt our abilities and not do as well as if we start at the top. And the tragic thing is that in cases like your O&M instructor, we might not get a chance to climb at all. If a teacher is constantly telling you where curbs are and trying to keep you out of trouble, you never have any opportunity to change her expectations. Unfortunately we can’t control whether another person views us with a ground-up or a sky-down perspective. We can, however, work on being the best blind people that we can be in order to give people reason to expect as much out of us as they possibly can. Arielle On 6/18/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > Hi Jim, > You raise some interesting points as usual. > > I am probably the last person, (or one of them) to scream sighted > domination. I get what you're saying though. I think, for me > personally, it depends on the situation. If someone asks me a > question, I will always be polite. Even if it is the drunk guy in > residence asking me to teach him Braille once he's sober ... yes I > didn't actually think that would happen either Even if > someone doesn't ask for proof, I still try to either demonstrate a > skill (if possible) or explain explicitly how I complete that skill. I > think you're right in not taking someone's word for what they can do, > and hopefully all the proof anyone needs will come through actions as > you go about your daily routine with that person. > I'm sorry if that made no sense whatsoever. > Sarah > > > Quoting Jim Reed : > >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to >> scream "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid >> to ask questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to >> improve the public preception of blindness and blind people. >> >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner >> until/unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how >> they have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >> need I know if and how my blind partner can >> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well. If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to >> prove that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, >> it seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task. It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it. As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want >> to be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right >> to know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >> people feel they have the right to >> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If >> you trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly, if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> >> Jim >> >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 11:16:18 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:16:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question In-Reply-To: <006e01c9efe3$2e38f870$8aaae950$@net> References: <006e01c9efe3$2e38f870$8aaae950$@net> Message-ID: <41B9D082DC5B40C6993252C2CEF46D50@Jessica> Jim, The N82 which is the phone you would need to get is only available through AT&T or T-Mobile. If you go to www. knfbreader.com it will give you the details. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" ; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" ; "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:05 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question > Howdy, > > > > I know there's no real list regarding this subject, but I'm wanting to > talk > with some people who are using the Verizon network for cell phone service. > > My contract with Sprint will end on June 30th. It is with Sprint. > > I may want to change to a phone that can have good speech software. > > I'd love the KNFB reader, but it is so expensive and I don't think I could > use Verizon with it, right? > > > > Thanks for any information you can provide. > > > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 12:46:40 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:46:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: <20090617110220.jhxnhzkjwo8co8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> <4A3887D7.3000309@aol.com> <20090617110220.jhxnhzkjwo8co8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: As far as braille embossers go... Does anyone know what embossers work on the mac and linux? On Jun 17, 2009, at 9:02 AM, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > HI Haben, > Here's a link to some info on Index Braille Embossers, specifically > the Basic-D but there are links to others too on this page. > http://abro.ca/product.php?id=Basic-D,S&parent=brailleEmb.txtI'd > have to guess > > Quoting Haben Girma : > >> Can you estimate the size and weight of the Index Basic D? >> >> thanks, >> Haben >> >> David Andrews wrote: >>> The Tiger embossers should be quiet as they are not grossly >>> mechanical, the way others are Nothing is going to be completely >>> quiet though. >>> >>> Fast is a relative term, the fastest embossers are in the $30,000 >>> to $100,000 range, and I don't think you can afford those. If >>> you can I will be your tech guy! >>> >>> The index basic D has improved, and we have had good luck with them. >>> >>> Also, the Braille quality on the Tiger isn't its strongest point, >>> so make sure you have seen it first. It is best at graphics, and >>> graphics/text mixes. >>> >>> Dave >>> >>> At 07:12 PM 6/15/2009, you wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I'm interested in finding a quiet and fast embosser with which >>>> to emboss textbooks for college. I hear that the Tiger embossers >>>> are among the quietest, but I can't find out exactly how quiet >>>> they are. Does anyone know how the noise level of the Tiger >>>> embossers compares to the Juliet Pro 60? I'm also interested in >>>> the Index Basic D since it is very portable, but I'm not sure >>>> whether it can handle large print jobs. Also, a review by IBTC >>>> in 2001 states that Index embossers are temperamental and prone >>>> to jamming and breaking. Is that still the case in 2009? >>>> >>>> thanks, >>>> Haben >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com >>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of >>>> virus signature database 4157 (20090615) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/habnkid%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 12:57:10 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:57:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education In-Reply-To: <4383d01d0906171005i814fc5fx299cfda1cda62d97@mail.gmail.com> References: <5C67FE9F18E64D41B9F4D5FF726AF6AF@valued3a11ee5d> <4383d01d0906170644k5415babfte9e64924a9b19670@mail.gmail.com> <4383d01d0906171005i814fc5fx299cfda1cda62d97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I went to the Utah School for the blind untill the 4th grade. I found the first 2 years of public school anoying because I didn't have a lot of the books the students were using in braille, and they wouldn't let me take home a braille'n speak and still had me using a brailler with an inprint device on the side so it would hook up to a printer, and that was the extent of the technology I was getting. From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:03:14 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:03:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Low vision cane travel question In-Reply-To: <974421.92523.qm@web65704.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <974421.92523.qm@web65704.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <82465EAA-227F-43CC-94ED-E43F7959294A@gmail.com> Firstly... I would personally recommend a lesson at least 5 times a week. Second. I would go ahead and lose the sunglasses, and then just use the sleepshades for maybe 10-15 minutes or so, and then increase it when you feel more comfortable using nonvisual landmarks. Also. Is there a devision of survices for the blind in or near your area? On Jun 17, 2009, at 1:58 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > I have a low vision cane travel question for you all. I have been > wearing a pair of sunglasses at night > when I go out to practice using my cane. These sunglasses have both > positive and negitive consiquences. First, from a positive point, they > make it dark enough that it is a waste of time for me to try and see > whats in front of me, thus I have all but stopped using my vision for > the mobility aspect of cane travel. Additionally, the sunglasses aford > me a little bit of protection from trees and bushes that my thin, wire > framed reading glasses simply can't provide. > > The downside of > wearing sunglasses at night is that I tend to forget to use my vision > for what it's worth; I tend to just stare straight ahead while I am > under my sunglasses. Additionally, I am still using visual landmarks > to > navigate, and I have gotten myself lost (either completely or > slightly) > everytime I have gone out under sunglasses. The reason I am getting > lost is because I am looking for visual landmarks that I simply can't > see under sunglasses. This suggest two alternatives, lose the > sunglasses or get non-visual O/M training. > > I > have only had one O/M lesson under sleepshades, so I really don't feel > comfortable getting out there on my own to practice under sleepshades. > The inability, or unwillingness to practice by myself undersleepshades > means that I can't develop my own set of non-visual landmarks to > follow, thus I am forced to rely on faulty vision to guide me. > Additionally, I don't want to be limited to set routes. My goal is to > be able to find my way to and from any point in this city, day or > night, visually and/or non-visually, and with or without the aid of a > GPS. I know that I have set high expectations, but I expect nothing > less of myself. Unfourtunatly, when it comes to O/M instruction, I've > been told to expect one lesson per week. I am not sure if I can I > develop the skills needed to realize my goal of safe and unrestricted > non-visual travel and navigation if I am only getting one O/M lesson > per week. > > Clearly, > the once a week non-visual O/M training is going to take a while, > so, I > return my focus to eyewear. I am wondering if any of you have any > suggestions for eyewear that may work better for me at night than dark > sunglasses. For example, I am wondering if a pair of orange tinted > sunglasses might work better for me at night than a dark tinted pair. > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:06:10 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:06:10 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson In-Reply-To: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66B5C519-1655-426B-94ED-C2D17CB075A3@gmail.com> Uh... Wow... The whole purpose of sleepshades and o and m is to... Gain the skills like finding landmarks and being able to go anywhere. Really, I would talk to 1 of the higherups about this. On Jun 17, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not > impressed. I am not convinced > that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude > towards blindness to > teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be > able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need > to > go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). > > Given > the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach > me under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal > travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific > routes. Before I could turn > around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, > even > though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual > techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every > block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made > me > take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see > the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put > on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also > two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with > her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably > walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't > need a lesson on sighted O/M, I've > been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to > see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I > am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me > figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the > landmarks > that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes > sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was > telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other > obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I > approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I > even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was > doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess > she > just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to > detect and avoid obstacles on my own. > > Towards the end of the > lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told > her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She > seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like > "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next > lesson > I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, > and I > intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. > > Additionally, > I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a > sleepshade and > travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I > havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to > become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to > agree with, she said, "if your O/M > instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really > doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge > learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical > application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of > an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works > with clients under sleepshades." > > Thoughts? > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:35:05 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:35:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> Message-ID: <99C9CD456A24468E8479BEB4276439A8@Rufus> Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake this task. If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person to his or her classes. A blind student need not have government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In turn, the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to help you move forward with something more solid with the school. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:48:15 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:48:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination In-Reply-To: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <573E21F8-C644-47CA-84E2-467CCC1DC067@gmail.com> I think this is a valid point. I mean... I would want to know if a doctor had the right skills to treat a broken leg or something like that, or even if someone who was fixing my computer wasn't going to just screw it up even worse than it was before. It's like when I was at the center for the blind here in salt lake city. I tok a woodshop class and managed to make a lamp, and avery time someone asks if I got hurt in the process, whitch I did but it was vary minor compared to other stuff I've heard about, I just tell them what happened and laugh about it seeing as how it was, by all accounts, a blunder on my part. The thing is though, crying discrimination over just little things is there everywhere. On the other hand though, if someone is telling me that my imput is not valued simpley cause I can't see an image on a screen or anything like that, and said individual does research for several large companies... Well then I'm gonna call bs on them. On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance > leads the sighted domination. > > First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are > ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, > education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is > to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. > Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to scream > "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid to ask > questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to improve the > public preception of blindness and blind people. > > Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining > relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share > information, and what activities they participate in. How is a > sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed > to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless > they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make > mistakes? > > Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not > have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) > in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am > not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent > until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person > through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their > friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind > person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are > indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not > going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner until/ > unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how they > have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination > issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death > consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I > need I know if and how my blind partner can > handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I > have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be > done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to > take your word for it. > > I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, > and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is > not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted > people must prove themselves as well. If you don't want to be > dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle > yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be > somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts > will be reflected in my actions. > > One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people > accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to prove > that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, it > seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind > person's word that they can do the task. It seems to be one big > secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an > employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some > blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do > something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it. As a sighted > person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your > basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of > certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to > be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to > know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind > people feel they have the right to > get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, > whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions > without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If you > trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and > handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as > everyone else. Personaly, if someone doubts my skills and > abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I > either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to > piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself > by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on > the fact that I am "different". > > I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but > these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. > > Jim > > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 13:54:07 2009 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:54:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question In-Reply-To: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63af025c0906180654t1ac5e419jdb4d1de2e11f2dd9@mail.gmail.com> Not to my knowledge, but when I had this dilemma, what I did was buy a pair of sunglasses that had the foam around the inside to block light from getting in through the corners of your eyes (I believe my eye doctor had some of these on hand, but I know I've seen them at Walmart as well) and then painted the insides of the lenses black. Looking from the outside in, I was just another stereotypical blind person who wore sunglasses when I used them. On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:32 AM, Jim Reed wrote: > > Hey all, > Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same function as > a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's wearing sleep > shades? (No offense meant to anyone) > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 14:34:52 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 07:34:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> References: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906180734m7d5eea5cn5d66ee53a3483a61@mail.gmail.com> I think that my university had the same attitude, although as I got more aquainted with disability services I think they would have found a student to help me. I really think that help to find classes should be offered because they change every term. I had to have a sighted friend help me find my classes each term. I was also never provided with a tactile map, and even if I was it would have only shown me the buildings which would have helped, but then you have to find the room in that building. I was a psychology major and the psych building had no braille for the room numbers until I demanded that they be installed. I think that college campuses fail their visually impaired students when it comes to orienting them to the campus, especially if it is a large campus. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From fowlers at syix.com Thu Jun 18 16:38:36 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:38:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson In-Reply-To: <66B5C519-1655-426B-94ED-C2D17CB075A3@gmail.com> References: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <66B5C519-1655-426B-94ED-C2D17CB075A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A1E95679ED6476BB88FFA61130B621B@angelab> Yes, but I don't think there's a first time sleep shade user on the planet that didn't peak a few times their first time out. In Jim's case, the info he gleamed from peaking for the most part confirmed that he was on the right track, and he did say that he realized that he didn't really need to. He was made aware of the alternative techniques he could have used instead. Jim's doing a damn good job of self-teaching if you ask me. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of clinton waterbury Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:06 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson Uh... Wow... The whole purpose of sleepshades and o and m is to... Gain the skills like finding landmarks and being able to go anywhere. Really, I would talk to 1 of the higherups about this. On Jun 17, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not > impressed. I am not convinced that my O/M instructor has the time, > skill, or proper additude towards blindness to teach me what I > need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be able to safely > travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to go in > Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). > > Given > the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach > me under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal travel and > navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. Before I > could turn around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to > campus. Then, even though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of > learning non-visual techniques, she insisted that I take off my > blindfold nearly every block so that I could check out the terrain > ahead, and she also made me take off my sleepshades quite frequently > so that I could visually see the landmarks that she was pointing out. > I must have took off and put on those sleepshades about 20 times > during the lesson. There were also two times where she told me to take > off my sleepshades and walk with her, "so that we can find the best > route visually". I think I probably walked 4-5 blocks without my > sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need a lesson on sighted O/M, > I've been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me > to see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when > I am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me > figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the > landmarks that were around, she was telling me everytime there were > bushes sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she > was telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any > other obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime > I approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I > even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was > doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess > she just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able > to detect and avoid obstacles on my own. > > Towards the end of the > lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told > her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She > seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like > "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next > lesson I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little > obstaclle, and I intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of > the lesson. > > Additionally, > I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a > sleepshade and travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a > sleepshade, but I havent been under one for years." A blind friend of > mine (who wants to become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I > am begining to agree with, she said, "if your O/M instructor > can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really doesnt have any > buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge learned in O/M > masters programs are nice, but without practical application of the > theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of an O/M instructor > as her counterparts who routinely practices or works with clients > under sleepshades." > > Thoughts? > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn > pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still > unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterb > ury%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 16:43:59 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 09:43:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but we also have the right to participate in society which may mean accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be heard. Thanks. http://www.blindgal.com -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From golfereric at myfairpoint.net Thu Jun 18 16:59:42 2009 From: golfereric at myfairpoint.net (Eric) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:59:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question Message-ID: <81ECB4EE25D542EF80E3217BEE595FA5@SCHOOLLAPTOP> Jim I know that Verizon has a phone that will be pretty accessible to blind people. It is a MOTO Q 9c with TALKS. My two year contract with Verizon ends soon and when that happens I will be getting this phone. I haven't had any use with it so if anyone has please let me know. Hope this helps, Eric Gaudes From oceanrls at hotmail.com Fri Jun 19 17:31:34 2009 From: oceanrls at hotmail.com (Rachel Jacobs) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:31:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question References: <81ECB4EE25D542EF80E3217BEE595FA5@SCHOOLLAPTOP> Message-ID: I don't know about that phone, but I have the lgnv2 and it is amazing. Rachel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric" To: Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:59 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question > Jim > > > > I know that Verizon has a phone that will be pretty accessible to blind > people. It is a MOTO Q 9c with TALKS. My two year contract with Verizon > ends > soon and when that happens I will be getting this phone. I haven't had any > use with it so if anyone has please let me know. > > > > > > Hope this helps, > > Eric Gaudes > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oceanrls%40hotmail.com > From kevin at kevinlarose.net Thu Jun 18 18:25:12 2009 From: kevin at kevinlarose.net (Kevin LaRose) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:25:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question References: <81ECB4EE25D542EF80E3217BEE595FA5@SCHOOLLAPTOP> Message-ID: <941FDC6E1BD24A2694D8BB7A48EA1CCF@acer6e40e97492> I have heard that the LG phone requires sighted assistance to get set up. It also, as I understand it, doesn't announce who text messages come from. I may be in the market for it after all, however, as it looks like the Motorola Q is "no longer available at this time" according to the Verizon Wireless website. Kevin L. I'm protected by SpamBrave http://www.spambrave.com/ From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 18:59:52 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Message-ID: <822431.47367.qm@web65705.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I am going to stop you right there. You can not do "research" on things that have not happened. Im soryy, but researching a hypothetical situation is not research; you are guessing at best, and telling a fiction story at worst. If you want to research what happens to a low vision person without funding, then you need to find an actual low vision person who doesnt have funding. Of course, at that point, is it ethical to study this person for your own benifit without trying to get them funding (or somehow get them O/M training)? Do yourself a favor, pick a topic that is real (one that has or does haoppen). This way emperical observations can lead you to cause/effect relationships. Even if you choose to go with a longitudinal, case-study type research model, you still need to work with real people experiencing real events. I would talk to your proffessor, and I would also talk to you schools research compliance (research ethics) board. If you get out and start doing research on actual people, you need their approval, and honestly, their approval is a good idea anyway, because you, the researcher, are liable for your screw-ups. "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Thu, 6/18/09, V Nork wrote: From: V Nork Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 2:47 AM Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility.  It involves a hypothetical question.  What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies?  Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned?  Would the college or university offer direct help?  On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student.   It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards.  It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester.  I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears.   My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored.  Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus?  Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From oceanrls at hotmail.com Fri Jun 19 19:18:37 2009 From: oceanrls at hotmail.com (Rachel Jacobs) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:18:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question References: <81ECB4EE25D542EF80E3217BEE595FA5@SCHOOLLAPTOP> <941FDC6E1BD24A2694D8BB7A48EA1CCF@acer6e40e97492> Message-ID: It is easy enough for someone to set it up for you. It announces who texts you annitially, but if you didn't here it come in it will not say who it is from. I simply just asked people to type their name at the end of the message and that has worked great! Rachel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin LaRose" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question >I have heard that the LG phone requires sighted assistance to get set up. >It also, as I understand it, doesn't announce who text messages come from. >I may be in the market for it after all, however, as it looks like the >Motorola Q is "no longer available at this time" according to the Verizon >Wireless website. > Kevin L. > > I'm protected by SpamBrave > http://www.spambrave.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oceanrls%40hotmail.com > From marrie12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 19:17:54 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:17:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question In-Reply-To: <63af025c0906180654t1ac5e419jdb4d1de2e11f2dd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <63af025c0906180654t1ac5e419jdb4d1de2e11f2dd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Good idea! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Principato Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Not to my knowledge, but when I had this dilemma, what I did was buy a pair of sunglasses that had the foam around the inside to block light from getting in through the corners of your eyes (I believe my eye doctor had some of these on hand, but I know I've seen them at Walmart as well) and then painted the insides of the lenses black. Looking from the outside in, I was just another stereotypical blind person who wore sunglasses when I used them. On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 3:32 AM, Jim Reed wrote: > > Hey all, > Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same > function as a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's > wearing sleep shades? (No offense meant to anyone) > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn > pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still > unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4 > 0gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 19:17:54 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:17:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2916066EB5074172B8E43BF0734B658F@sacomputer> I tweeted that on twitter but I also say both . -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of alena roberts Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 9:44 AM To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of Oregon mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but we also have the right to participate in society which may mean accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be heard. Thanks. http://www.blindgal.com -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 20:08:49 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:08:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson References: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><66B5C519-1655-426B-94ED-C2D17CB075A3@gmail.com> <5A1E95679ED6476BB88FFA61130B621B@angelab> Message-ID: <2D87D8E2230F4C8CBDEE583CEF963CBF@Dezman> I agree. Jim really understands what it's going to take for him to become a competent traveler. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela fowler" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson > Yes, but I don't think there's a first time sleep shade user on the planet > that didn't peak a few times their first time out. In Jim's case, the info > he gleamed from peaking for the most part confirmed that he was on the > right > track, and he did say that he realized that he didn't really need to. He > was > made aware of the alternative techniques he could have used instead. Jim's > doing a damn good job of self-teaching if you ask me. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of clinton waterbury > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:06 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson > > Uh... Wow... The whole purpose of sleepshades and o and m is to... > Gain the skills like finding landmarks and being able to go anywhere. > Really, I would talk to 1 of the higherups about this. > On Jun 17, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not >> impressed. I am not convinced that my O/M instructor has the time, >> skill, or proper additude towards blindness to teach me what I >> need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be able to safely >> travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to go in >> Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). >> >> Given >> the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach >> me under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal travel and >> navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. Before I >> could turn around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to >> campus. Then, even though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of >> learning non-visual techniques, she insisted that I take off my >> blindfold nearly every block so that I could check out the terrain >> ahead, and she also made me take off my sleepshades quite frequently >> so that I could visually see the landmarks that she was pointing out. >> I must have took off and put on those sleepshades about 20 times >> during the lesson. There were also two times where she told me to take >> off my sleepshades and walk with her, "so that we can find the best >> route visually". I think I probably walked 4-5 blocks without my >> sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need a lesson on sighted O/M, >> I've been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me >> to see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when >> I am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me >> figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the >> landmarks that were around, she was telling me everytime there were >> bushes sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she >> was telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any >> other obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime >> I approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I >> even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was >> doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess >> she just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able >> to detect and avoid obstacles on my own. >> >> Towards the end of the >> lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told >> her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She >> seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like >> "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next >> lesson I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little >> obstaclle, and I intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of >> the lesson. >> >> Additionally, >> I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a >> sleepshade and travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a >> sleepshade, but I havent been under one for years." A blind friend of >> mine (who wants to become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I >> am begining to agree with, she said, "if your O/M instructor >> can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really doesnt have any >> buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge learned in O/M >> masters programs are nice, but without practical application of the >> theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of an O/M instructor >> as her counterparts who routinely practices or works with clients >> under sleepshades." >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn >> pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still >> unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterb >> ury%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 18 20:17:59 2009 From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:17:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question References: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <918D43ADCD00440A82327153F25ECE47@sacomputer> Message-ID: <01e101c9f051$e0571370$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Sarah and listers, They can also be ordered from the Independence Market. If you're coming to convention be sure to pick up a pair from the NFB Store. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey! I like the sleepshades! Theya re to me very comfertable and they help when you are chopping onions. Wallmart might have something but they itch like crazy. You could also maybe where some dark glasses or something like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:33 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey all, Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same function as a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's wearing sleep shades? (No offense meant to anyone) Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 20:22:46 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:22:46 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination In-Reply-To: <573E21F8-C644-47CA-84E2-467CCC1DC067@gmail.com> References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <573E21F8-C644-47CA-84E2-467CCC1DC067@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Of course we want to know that people have certain skills before we hire them to do things for us or with us. What I take issue with is why we take for granted that a sighted person can do something, while still requiring evidence before believing that a blind person can do it. If we require proof or evidence from anyone (blind or sighted) that they can do something, that's fine. But assuming that a sighted companion will be good at hiking, for example, but requiring evidence from a blind person just because they're blind is discrimination, whether or not it's justified. And it's rooted in the assumption that a blind person's abilities are less or at least different from the abilities of a sighted individual. Arielle On 6/18/09, clinton waterbury wrote: > I think this is a valid point. I mean... I would want to know if a > doctor had the right skills to treat a broken leg or something like > that, or even if someone who was fixing my computer wasn't going to > just screw it up even worse than it was before. > It's like when I was at the center for the blind here in salt lake > city. I tok a woodshop class and managed to make a lamp, and avery > time someone asks if I got hurt in the process, whitch I did but it > was vary minor compared to other stuff I've heard about, I just tell > them what happened and laugh about it seeing as how it was, by all > accounts, a blunder on my part. > The thing is though, crying discrimination over just little things is > there everywhere. > On the other hand though, if someone is telling me that my imput is > not valued simpley cause I can't see an image on a screen or anything > like that, and said individual does research for several large > companies... Well then I'm gonna call bs on them. > On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to scream >> "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid to ask >> questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to improve the >> public preception of blindness and blind people. >> >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner until/ >> unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how they >> have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >> need I know if and how my blind partner can >> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well. If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to prove >> that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, it >> seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task. It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it. As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to >> be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to >> know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >> people feel they have the right to >> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If you >> trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly, if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> >> Jim >> >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 20:31:57 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:31:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson References: <81663.46239.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <66B5C519-1655-426B-94ED-C2D17CB075A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jim, If you're going to be in Detroit perhaps you can arrange a travel lesson with an instructor trained in NFB methodology or likewise a good traveler. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "clinton waterbury" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First O/M lesson > Uh... Wow... The whole purpose of sleepshades and o and m is to... > Gain the skills like finding landmarks and being able to go anywhere. > Really, I would talk to 1 of the higherups about this. > On Jun 17, 2009, at 1:53 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I just had my first O/M lesson under sleepshades, and I was not >> impressed. I am not convinced >> that my O/M instructor has the time, skill, or proper additude towards >> blindness to >> teach me what I need/want to know. My goal of O/M training is to be >> able to safely travel and navigate non-visually anywhere I want/need to >> go in Billings (or anywhere else for that matter). >> >> Given >> the goals I just mentioned, I told/asked my O/M instructor to teach me >> under sleepshades, and I asked her to teach me universal >> travel and navigation skills, rather than teaching me specific routes. >> Before I could turn >> around twice, she is teaching me a specific route to campus. Then, even >> though I was under sleepshades for the purposes of learning non-visual >> techniques, she insisted that I take off my blindfold nearly every >> block so that I could check out the terrain ahead, and she also made me >> take off my sleepshades quite frequently so that I could visually see >> the landmarks that she was pointing out. I must have took off and put >> on those sleepshades about 20 times during the lesson. There were also >> two times where she told me to take off my sleepshades and walk with >> her, "so that we can find the best route visually". I think I probably >> walked 4-5 blocks without my sleepshades on. I'm sorry, but I don't need >> a lesson on sighted O/M, I've >> been doing that since birth. And what the hell good does it do me to >> see a landmark visually that I may not be able to see visually when I >> am walking to school at night? Additionally, she wasn't letting me >> figure out anything for myself. She was telling me of all the landmarks >> that were around, she was telling me everytime there were bushes >> sticking out into the sidewalk, or trees overhanging it, she was >> telling me everytime there was a bench, lightpost, sign, or any other >> obstacle in my way, and she kinda made a gasping sound everytime I >> approached a curb at full speed. She was doing all of this before I >> even had the chance to detect the obstacle with my cane, and she was >> doing all of this without having seen me run into anything; I guess she >> just assumed that I would not/did not have the skills to be able to >> detect and avoid obstacles on my own. >> >> Towards the end of the >> lesson I got sick of her pointing out where every curb was, and I told >> her that she wasnt doing me any favors by pointing out every curb. She >> seemed to be taken by suprize at this, and she said something like >> "fine, I'll let you walk off the curb". Whenever we get our next lesson >> I intend to tell her to stop pointing out every little obstaclle, and I >> intend to leave the sleepshade on for the duration of the lesson. >> >> Additionally, >> I asked my O/M instructor if she herself actually gets under a >> sleepshade and >> travels. Her response was, " I was trained under a sleepshade, but I >> havent been under one for years." A blind friend of mine (who wants to >> become an O/M instructor) made a good point that I am begining to agree >> with, she said, "if your O/M >> instructor can't/won't travel under a sleepshade, then she really >> doesnt have any buisness teaching O/M. All the theoretical knowledge >> learned in O/M masters programs are nice, but without practical >> application of the theoretical knowledge, she will never be as good of >> an O/M instructor as her counterparts who routinely practices or works >> with clients under sleepshades." >> >> Thoughts? >> >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From mworkman at ualberta.ca Thu Jun 18 20:39:17 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:39:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <99C9CD456A24468E8479BEB4276439A8@Rufus> Message-ID: I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not through assistance from the university, then whose responsibility is it. My gut tells me you will say that it is of course the blind person's responsibility, but my gut has been wrong in the past. Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless the university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every classroom door, accessible elevators, and is constructed in a manner that requires little in the way of orientation for a blind person to get around, then the university does have a responsibility to offer this sort of assistance. In Canada anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is a reasonable accommodation that doesn't impose an undo hardship, and I suspect the same would be true in american law. But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe it is. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake this task. If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person to his or her classes. A blind student need not have government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In turn, the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to help you move forward with something more solid with the school. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From ginisd at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 18 21:13:25 2009 From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:13:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help References: <822431.47367.qm@web65705.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <69C1A315A797432D983F97B947D7238A@windows4c0ed96> Whew! Are you out of breath, Jim, from some of the hasty conclusions you jumped to after reading my post? (friendly grin) Where to start? First of all, my research paper will be an informal survey of what other colleges are doing in the case of students who may not have funding for even minimal orientation and mobility trainng. I amtrying to get perspective on this since it is a real life struggle I am facing. I have some funding from the California Department of Rehabilitation for mobility lessons, but it is limited. In my case, as a returning student who is recently totally blind, I have some back problems that make me walk slowly, in an unsteady way, and I take a long time to get anywhere. I am not sure a volunteer would hang with me as I teeter tottered along to get a little help to get to my classes by planning a route. And I really need only a bit of help since I have most of the basic white cane skills down pat. I want to save any professional training I am funded for to deal with busy intersections, since this is my weak point right now. So my questions, as kind of a brainstorming thing, are am I the only one facing this painful situation? What happens on other campuses? Is it a reasonable accomodation to expect a staff memnber at a college to have as his or her job description being a sometime mobility aide? And so on. I agree research must be approached carefully, but let us not define research too narrowly. I have done studies in experimental psychology, as well as open ended journalistic articles for publication, so I feel grounded in this. And I hope to find on this list the same kind of support and understanding I would extend to someone else. Respectfully, Ginniee----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help I am going to stop you right there. You can not do "research" on things that have not happened. Im soryy, but researching a hypothetical situation is not research; you are guessing at best, and telling a fiction story at worst. If you want to research what happens to a low vision person without funding, then you need to find an actual low vision person who doesnt have funding. Of course, at that point, is it ethical to study this person for your own benifit without trying to get them funding (or somehow get them O/M training)? Do yourself a favor, pick a topic that is real (one that has or does haoppen). This way emperical observations can lead you to cause/effect relationships. Even if you choose to go with a longitudinal, case-study type research model, you still need to work with real people experiencing real events. I would talk to your proffessor, and I would also talk to you schools research compliance (research ethics) board. If you get out and start doing research on actual people, you need their approval, and honestly, their approval is a good idea anyway, because you, the researcher, are liable for your screw-ups. "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Thu, 6/18/09, V Nork wrote: From: V Nork Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 2:47 AM Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.net From mworkman at ualberta.ca Thu Jun 18 21:40:29 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:40:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. But, for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people fight for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed in order to facilitate easier access? I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but where we part company is on the issue of design. If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because no amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is one example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that I know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible currency are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the average sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because these adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to oppose them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that that is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these differences into consideration. So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best to educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right attitude when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. Regards, Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of alena roberts Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of Oregon mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but we also have the right to participate in society which may mean accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be heard. Thanks. http://www.blindgal.com -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From terri.rupp at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 21:44:58 2009 From: terri.rupp at gmail.com (Terri Rupp) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 14:44:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Help at Convention In-Reply-To: <01c801c9f056$1843a5b0$a531b148@DHJK30D1> References: <01c801c9f056$1843a5b0$a531b148@DHJK30D1> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Angela S. Wolf Date: Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 1:48 PM Subject: Help at Convention To: Terri Rupp Hi: Can you please forward the following message to the NABS list. Thanks so much! Angela *** Dear Ambassadors: It is that time of year again. We are preparing for another great convention, and we are excited that you will be a part of making convention run smoothly . Our committee will function much like last year, where we will ensure that convention attendees feel welcome, are able to move efficiently to meetings and general sessions, and overall have a positive convention experience. One of our primary tasks at convention is marshalling. This hotel, as many of you may know, is a little tricky to navigate, so marshalling will play an important role this year. I am asking for individuals who are interested in volunteering for marshalling shifts to respond to this e-mail with days/times you will be able to serve. Here is a general overview of this year's convention schedule. Keep in mind that typically we need more help at peak times, which I have indicated with a *. Friday, July 3 Seminar Day Saturday, July 4 Registration and Packet Pick-up Day* (especially during registration morning) Sunday, July 5 Board Meeting and Division Day * (especially before and after the board meeting) Monday, July 6 Motor City March and Opening Session * (especially before the march, before sessions, and after sessions) Tuesday, July 7 Business Session * (before and after each session) Wednesday, July 8 Banquet Day and Adjournment * (especially before and after each session and before/after banquet) I will provide you with a schedule of your assignments before convention, so you can be sure to plan for your commitments. Also, as an Ambassador, you might want to familiarize yourself with the site of the convention in order to be as helpful to convention attendees as possible. You can find a very helpful article at: http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm09/bm0905/bm090507.htm If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me. Sincerely, Angela Wolf, Chair NFB Convention Ambassadors Committee (512) 417-8190 angelawolf at austin.rr.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 21:46:50 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 07:46:50 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Cool Online Stats Program Message-ID: Hi all, I just discovered a Web-based statistical calculator called GraphPad QuickCalcs that looks really neat and extremely accessible too. You can check it out at http://www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm It won't do some of the more complicated procedures, but is great for most of the basic stuff (such as T-tests and chi-square tests) as well as certain kinds of chemistry problems. It also seems to include a lot of built-in conceptual help. Might be a good accessible alternative to SPSS for introductory stats courses and simple research analyses. Anyone have experience using this application? Arielle From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 21:56:13 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:56:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Marc, Your tone suggests it would be wrong of me to say it is the responsibility of the blind person to find their own classrooms? This is your criteria for deeming a campus accessible: 1. Fully accessible maps 2. Braille on every classroom door 3. Accessible elevators 4. Constructed in a way that requires little orientation for the blind individual I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, correct me if I'm wrong. But no institution could come clean on all four points, and even if it planned to do so in the future, there is still the matter of the here and now where the blind student still needs to find their way. My e-mail very clearly suggests a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to their classrooms. Imagine how that would pan out in the local newspapers? But, yes, ultimately, if the university is taking its sweet time about getting its act together, it is the responsibility of the student to find their way around campus just as it is their responsibility, and not the school's, to have the assignments completed. The student should file a complaint or do whatever they need to do to rectify the situation, but I'm referring to what needs to be done today because when classes start the student needs to get there with or without the university's assistance. College is, after all, one step away from real life, and accessible maps, labeled doors and such are certainly not a part of finding the office for an interview. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not through assistance from the university, then whose responsibility is it. My gut tells me you will say that it is of course the blind person's responsibility, but my gut has been wrong in the past. Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless the university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every classroom door, accessible elevators, and is constructed in a manner that requires little in the way of orientation for a blind person to get around, then the university does have a responsibility to offer this sort of assistance. In Canada anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is a reasonable accommodation that doesn't impose an undo hardship, and I suspect the same would be true in american law. But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe it is. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake this task. If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person to his or her classes. A blind student need not have government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In turn, the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to help you move forward with something more solid with the school. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman %40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 18 22:18:22 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination Message-ID: <218468.94459.qm@web65705.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Arielle, If you think my additude is discrimination, I can live with that because my additude is justified. You see, I am a blind guy without blindness skills, and in some areas of my life I know my skills are deficient. Because I am an untrained blind person, I know they exist, and I can reasonably expect for there to be more than one untrained blind person out there. Its not that all blind people are incapable, but some are. And in my case, that is where my doubts about blind people rise from. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Arielle Silverman wrote: From: Arielle Silverman Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 2:22 PM Hi all, Of course we want to know that people have certain skills before we hire them to do things for us or with us. What I take issue with is why we take for granted that a sighted person can do something, while still requiring evidence before believing that a blind person can do it. If we require proof or evidence from anyone (blind or sighted) that they can do something, that's fine. But assuming that a sighted companion will be good at hiking, for example, but requiring evidence from a blind person just because they're blind is discrimination, whether or not it's justified. And it's rooted in the assumption that a blind person's abilities are less or at least different from the abilities of a sighted individual. Arielle On 6/18/09, clinton waterbury wrote: > I think this is a valid point.  I mean...  I would want to know if a > doctor had the right skills to treat a broken leg or something like > that, or even if someone who was fixing my computer wasn't going to > just screw it up even worse than it was before. > It's like when I was at the center for the blind here in salt lake > city.  I tok a woodshop class and managed to make a lamp, and avery > time someone asks if I got hurt in the process, whitch I did but it > was vary minor compared to other stuff I've heard about, I just tell > them what happened and laugh about it seeing as how it was, by all > accounts, a blunder on my part. > The thing is though, crying discrimination over just little things is > there everywhere. > On the other hand though, if someone is telling me that my imput is > not valued simpley cause I can't see an image on a screen or anything > like that, and said individual does research for several large > companies...  Well then I'm gonna call bs on them. > On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to scream >> "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid to ask >> questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to improve the >> public preception of blindness and blind people. >> >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner until/ >> unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how they >> have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >> need I know if and how my blind partner can >> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well.  If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to prove >> that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, it >> seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task.  It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it.  As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to >> be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to >> know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >> people feel they have the right to >> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If you >> trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly,  if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> >> Jim >> >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 18 22:46:11 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:46:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question References: <006e01c9efe3$2e38f870$8aaae950$@net> Message-ID: <006301c9f066$9424a610$0701a8c0@Serene> It depends what you're really looking for: If you're looking for an actual cellphone that's accessible, there's a relatively new one from Verizon that has Talks or Mobile Speak on it. If you simply want a device that you can use to do stuff like read print material, the KNFB Reader Mobile would be great, although really expensive! You don't have to use the KNFB Reader Mobile as your cell and, a little hint for you about getting rehab to pay for the reader, don't tell them you might use it as a cell cuz they'll say you don't really need an accessible cell, although you might really want one. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim" To: "'Blind Talk Mailing List'" ; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" ; "'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:05 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question > Howdy, > > > > I know there's no real list regarding this subject, but I'm wanting to > talk > with some people who are using the Verizon network for cell phone service. > > My contract with Sprint will end on June 30th. It is with Sprint. > > I may want to change to a phone that can have good speech software. > > I'd love the KNFB reader, but it is so expensive and I don't think I could > use Verizon with it, right? > > > > Thanks for any information you can provide. > > > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 23:01:48 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:01:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marc, Keep in mind here in the United States I don't believe that's encountered very much because for the most part unless the student inherits a decent amount of money through the death of a relative or through some other means. They will generally always qualify for services through the Commission for the Blind or whatever the blindness agency is. I would believe that in the case you saying though that it would be someone who is in the Disability Services office at the college in the case that it is a two or four year public college such as a community college or a four year university. Or in the case of a private two or four year community college or university it would be whatever the college personnel who deals with students with disabilities. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not through > assistance from the university, then whose responsibility is it. My gut > tells me you will say that it is of course the blind person's > responsibility, but my gut has been wrong in the past. > > Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless the > university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every classroom > door, > accessible elevators, and is constructed in a manner that requires little > in > the way of orientation for a blind person to get around, then the > university > does have a responsibility to offer this sort of assistance. In Canada > anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is a > reasonable > accommodation that doesn't impose an undo hardship, and I suspect the same > would be true in american law. > > But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe it is. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > > Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake this task. > If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private institution, > there is still some type of compliance officer on hand who should find a > student worker to show the blind person to his or her classes. A blind > student need not have government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In > turn, the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I > think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. Keep us > posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to help you move > forward with something more solid with the school. > > Joe Orozco > > "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the > crowd."--Max Lucado > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a > research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical > question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on > your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and > mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? > Let us say in this example the student already had basic white > cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them > until they had a route planned? Would the college or > university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen > as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is > simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay > for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help > should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems > to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the > college or university could be designated to offer some > assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run > through so a student could get to classes each semester. I > have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my > suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for > tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar > or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco > %40gmail.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of > virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 4160 (20090616) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com > From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 18 23:02:48 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:02:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help References: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> Message-ID: <007d01c9f068$e6880a30$0701a8c0@Serene> I don't think the college has a legal responsibility to provide cane lessons to blind students and, yes, it's the student's responsibility to orient to the campus. Having said that, this doesn't mean that nobody should be available to help students orient. It doesn't have to be the disability services office. When I was in college, I simply asked friends I really trusted to walk with me around campus to orient me. I also sometimes used my mom. If you don't think your friends are right for the job, so to speak, readers are often good options. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "V Nork" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:47 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research > topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would > happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed > help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or > social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic > white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until > they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct > help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of > the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help > or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help > should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that > is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could > be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an > initial run through so a student could get to > classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, > but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request > for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not > to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From mworkman at ualberta.ca Thu Jun 18 23:07:11 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:07:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, You said "the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy." Then you said, "a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to their classrooms." You have to admit there is some ambiguity here. My guess is that what you are saying is that the school does have a responsibility to provide the service, but that in cases where the school is not providing this service, it is then up to the student to find his or her own way. If that is indeed what you meant, then we agree, but that is not at all what you implied in the original post. You made it sound like the school, quote, need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, end quote, but a student could request this of the school, and the school would be hard pressed to say no. You offer the example of going to the newspapers, which suggest that a student could shame them into doing it. For me, however, there is a big difference between saying the school is failing to meet its responsibilities, and saying that the school would have a difficult time facing a public shaming. The latter assertion doesn't imply that the school has any responsibility whatsoever, and it really sounded like you were adopting the latter position. Now, I really can't tell if you favour the former, like me, or the latter. No sarcasm at all. Those are only minimal standards of accessibility that came off the top of my head. If I thought about it, I could come up with many others. It may be true that absolutely no school meets even these minimal criteria (I really have no idea), but that is beside the point. The point is that, unless the school does meet the criteria, the school has a responsibility to assist students with orientation to classrooms and other destinations. If a school were fully accessible, then I could accept the argument that it is entirely the student's responsibility, but, as you said, no schools are, so the school thus has a responsibility. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:56 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Marc, Your tone suggests it would be wrong of me to say it is the responsibility of the blind person to find their own classrooms? This is your criteria for deeming a campus accessible: 1. Fully accessible maps 2. Braille on every classroom door 3. Accessible elevators 4. Constructed in a way that requires little orientation for the blind individual I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, correct me if I'm wrong. But no institution could come clean on all four points, and even if it planned to do so in the future, there is still the matter of the here and now where the blind student still needs to find their way. My e-mail very clearly suggests a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to their classrooms. Imagine how that would pan out in the local newspapers? But, yes, ultimately, if the university is taking its sweet time about getting its act together, it is the responsibility of the student to find their way around campus just as it is their responsibility, and not the school's, to have the assignments completed. The student should file a complaint or do whatever they need to do to rectify the situation, but I'm referring to what needs to be done today because when classes start the student needs to get there with or without the university's assistance. College is, after all, one step away from real life, and accessible maps, labeled doors and such are certainly not a part of finding the office for an interview. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not through assistance from the university, then whose responsibility is it. My gut tells me you will say that it is of course the blind person's responsibility, but my gut has been wrong in the past. Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless the university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every classroom door, accessible elevators, and is constructed in a manner that requires little in the way of orientation for a blind person to get around, then the university does have a responsibility to offer this sort of assistance. In Canada anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is a reasonable accommodation that doesn't impose an undo hardship, and I suspect the same would be true in american law. But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe it is. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake this task. If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person to his or her classes. A blind student need not have government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In turn, the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to help you move forward with something more solid with the school. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman %40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 18 23:13:42 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:13:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> We should adapt to the world. Yes, there are necessary accommodations the NFB has fought for, such as adaptive technology, books on CD, and testing accommodations and there are commissions for the blind to provide orientation and mobility services and Braille lessons, but, other than that, we should adapt to the world. We don't need things like automated traffic signals on street corners. They only make us not use our skills as much or, in some cases, not learn them at all cuz some people may believe they don't need to learn them. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "alena roberts" To: "nabs" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ; "NFB of Oregon mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:43 PM Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? > Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? > This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it > should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but > we also have the right to participate in society which may mean > accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's > opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be > heard. Thanks. > > http://www.blindgal.com > > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 23:15:48 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:15:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64079950BA7B4B058F327AF0FE681782@Jessica> Marc, The American's with Disabilities Act says that by law two out of the four of the items are required to be in place. Also keep in mind to that even in the college enviroment the blind and visually impaired are still in the minority even of the disabled student populations at any college that you might be attending. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- AAFrom: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > Marc, > > Your tone suggests it would be wrong of me to say it is the responsibility > of the blind person to find their own classrooms? > > This is your criteria for deeming a campus accessible: > > 1. Fully accessible maps > > 2. Braille on every classroom door > > 3. Accessible elevators > > 4. Constructed in a way that requires little orientation for the blind > individual > > I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, correct me if I'm wrong. But > no institution could come clean on all four points, and even if it planned > to do so in the future, there is still the matter of the here and now > where > the blind student still needs to find their way. My e-mail very clearly > suggests a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to > their classrooms. Imagine how that would pan out in the local newspapers? > But, yes, ultimately, if the university is taking its sweet time about > getting its act together, it is the responsibility of the student to find > their way around campus just as it is their responsibility, and not the > school's, to have the assignments completed. The student should file a > complaint or do whatever they need to do to rectify the situation, but I'm > referring to what needs to be done today because when classes start the > student needs to get there with or without the university's assistance. > College is, after all, one step away from real life, and accessible maps, > labeled doors and such are certainly not a part of finding the office for > an > interview. > > Joe Orozco > > "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the > crowd."--Max Lucado > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not > through assistance from the university, then whose > responsibility is it. My gut tells me you will say that it is > of course the blind person's responsibility, but my gut has > been wrong in the past. > > Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless > the university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every > classroom door, accessible elevators, and is constructed in a > manner that requires little in the way of orientation for a > blind person to get around, then the university does have a > responsibility to offer this sort of assistance. In Canada > anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is > a reasonable accommodation that doesn't impose an undo > hardship, and I suspect the same would be true in american law. > > But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe it is. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > > Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake > this task. > If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private > institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on > hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person > to his or her classes. A blind student need not have > government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In turn, the > school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I > think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. > Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to > help you move forward with something more solid with the school. > > Joe Orozco > > "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on > the crowd."--Max Lucado > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a > research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical > question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on > your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and > mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? > Let us say in this example the student already had basic white > cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them > until they had a route planned? Would the college or > university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen > as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is > simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay > for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help > should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems > to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the > college or university could be designated to offer some > assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run > through so a student could get to classes each semester. I > have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my > suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for > tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar > or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any > thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco > %40gmail.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of > virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of > virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman > %40ualberta. > ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco > %40gmail.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of > virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 4168 (20090618) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 18 23:19:30 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:19:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question References: <81ECB4EE25D542EF80E3217BEE595FA5@SCHOOLLAPTOP> <941FDC6E1BD24A2694D8BB7A48EA1CCF@acer6e40e97492> Message-ID: <00d101c9f06b$3b826ce0$0701a8c0@Serene> I have an LG phone, not sure if it's the "NV2," but it does say who texts you, but it won't read the message. It does identify who's calling you and lets you call people and check voicemails, missed calls, battery level, date, and time all by voice. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin LaRose" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question >I have heard that the LG phone requires sighted assistance to get set up. >It also, as I understand it, doesn't announce who text messages come from. >I may be in the market for it after all, however, as it looks like the >Motorola Q is "no longer available at this time" according to the Verizon >Wireless website. > Kevin L. > > I'm protected by SpamBrave > http://www.spambrave.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 18 23:21:30 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:21:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help References: <822431.47367.qm@web65705.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d701c9f06b$831024d0$0701a8c0@Serene> I think Jinny , in addition to writing a paper, is actually asking for advice for herself. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help I am going to stop you right there. You can not do "research" on things that have not happened. Im soryy, but researching a hypothetical situation is not research; you are guessing at best, and telling a fiction story at worst. If you want to research what happens to a low vision person without funding, then you need to find an actual low vision person who doesnt have funding. Of course, at that point, is it ethical to study this person for your own benifit without trying to get them funding (or somehow get them O/M training)? Do yourself a favor, pick a topic that is real (one that has or does haoppen). This way emperical observations can lead you to cause/effect relationships. Even if you choose to go with a longitudinal, case-study type research model, you still need to work with real people experiencing real events. I would talk to your proffessor, and I would also talk to you schools research compliance (research ethics) board. If you get out and start doing research on actual people, you need their approval, and honestly, their approval is a good idea anyway, because you, the researcher, are liable for your screw-ups. "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Thu, 6/18/09, V Nork wrote: From: V Nork Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 2:47 AM Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 23:38:16 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:38:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help References: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> <007d01c9f068$e6880a30$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <001f01c9f06d$db269490$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> When I was learning whare my classes were I had my driver at the time who is a good friend of mine come with me until I got the root down and was able to get there on my own. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help >I don't think the college has a legal responsibility to provide cane >lessons to blind students and, yes, it's the student's responsibility to >orient to the campus. Having said that, this doesn't mean that nobody >should be available to help students orient. It doesn't have to be the >disability services office. When I was in college, I simply asked friends >I really trusted to walk with me around campus to orient me. I also >sometimes used my mom. If you don't think your friends are right for the >job, so to speak, readers are often good options. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "V Nork" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:47 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > >> Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research >> topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would >> happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed >> help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or >> social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had >> basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them >> until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer >> direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual >> responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one >> does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that >> someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. >> It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the >> college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a >> kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get >> to >> classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, >> but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request >> for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not >> to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From oceanrls at hotmail.com Fri Jun 19 23:41:48 2009 From: oceanrls at hotmail.com (Rachel Jacobs) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:41:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question References: <81ECB4EE25D542EF80E3217BEE595FA5@SCHOOLLAPTOP><941FDC6E1BD24A2694D8BB7A48EA1CCF@acer6e40e97492> <00d101c9f06b$3b826ce0$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: My phone reads the texts that someone sends me. It does not read that text to me after I type one though. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question >I have an LG phone, not sure if it's the "NV2," but it does say who texts >you, but it won't read the message. It does identify who's calling you and >lets you call people and check voicemails, missed calls, battery level, >date, and time all by voice. > > Serena > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin LaRose" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question > > >>I have heard that the LG phone requires sighted assistance to get set up. >>It also, as I understand it, doesn't announce who text messages come from. >>I may be in the market for it after all, however, as it looks like the >>Motorola Q is "no longer available at this time" according to the Verizon >>Wireless website. >> Kevin L. >> >> I'm protected by SpamBrave >> http://www.spambrave.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oceanrls%40hotmail.com > From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 23:41:50 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:41:50 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906181641u644d6daek7b9c69746704fae9@mail.gmail.com> Mark, I think you said it all. Your description of NFB's philosophy is why I usually don't support them. I like you believe in universal accessible design. If people have misconceptions about what I'm capable of, then it is my responsibility to show them that they're wrong. Good design doesn't hurt people. If all blind people could be given the training they deserve maybe fewer things would need to be changed, but that's not the case now and I doubt it ever will. I don't think it's right for anyone to deny another person the ability to do something because the sighted world might get the wrong message. Most people lose their vision later in life and they're either too stubborn to get training, or they don't know where to turn. Finally, as I pointed out in my post most "accessible" changes end up helping people they were never intended to. This says to me that designing something with lots of people in mind is the best solution. Thanks for your input, and I hope more people will tell us their opinions. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Jun 19 00:06:19 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:06:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination Message-ID: <20090619000619.26267.43149@web3.serotek.com> Jim and all: I think what bothered me ost about Jim's initial message on this topic was this whole idea of proving oneself. On one hand, Jim did say that he wouldn't expect a blind person to do tricks for him, but he also at least cited two or three examples (being one of the guys and hiking) where he would expect a blind to prove themselves. I would want someone to prove themselves to me in those situations, but not because they're disabled. To prove that someone's a just one of the guys, I'd want her to be friendly, outgoing, caring, empathetic, and all the other qualities we look for in friends. As for hiking, I'd want someone to prove to me that they can handle an urgent situation because all outdoors people need to be able to do so. I'd want that person to prove their outdoorsmanship because those are the skills required. And frankly, I could care less how said disalbed person does it so long as I know they can. Presumably, if someone says, "I've been an outdoors person for 30 years," I don't need them to prove to me that they can do it. I would not, however, require an individual to prove to me that they're capable based on blindness alone. I think that Arielle's right. A person who has never met a blind person has two options. They can start believing that a blind person can do anything they can do, or they can start by believing that a blind person is considerably limited based on blindness alone. Or, if you're like my friend Ani, you come with no expectations at all and don't expect to be educated just because he's a sighted person. Instead, he figures the educational process will just happen naturally when it needs to happen and he's comfortable having me do things or letting me do things even if he doesn't know exactly how I'm going to do them. Such an arrangement has worked for us. He also has some limitations of his own. I also just take it as it comes and let him educate me on his strengths and needs as necessary. Ideally, that's how I'd like it to work, and it has for us. When it ever becomes necessary for us to discuss our strengths and limitations, we just do it. Neither of us expects that the other will be limited based on our physical characteristics. Instead, we let the other communicate to us what their needs are. If nothing's mentioned, then it's probably not a problem. Does any of that make sense? Respectfully Submitted Original message: > I think this is a valid point. I mean... I would want to know if a > doctor had the right skills to treat a broken leg or something like > that, or even if someone who was fixing my computer wasn't going to > just screw it up even worse than it was before. > It's like when I was at the center for the blind here in salt lake > city. I tok a woodshop class and managed to make a lamp, and avery > time someone asks if I got hurt in the process, whitch I did but it > was vary minor compared to other stuff I've heard about, I just tell > them what happened and laugh about it seeing as how it was, by all > accounts, a blunder on my part. > The thing is though, crying discrimination over just little things is > there everywhere. > On the other hand though, if someone is telling me that my imput is > not valued simpley cause I can't see an image on a screen or anything > like that, and said individual does research for several large > companies... Well then I'm gonna call bs on them. > On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, >> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >> leads the sighted domination. >> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to scream >> "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid to ask >> questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to improve the >> public preception of blindness and blind people. >> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >> mistakes? >> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner until/ >> unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how they >> have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >> need I know if and how my blind partner can >> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >> take your word for it. >> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >> people must prove themselves as well. If you don't want to be >> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >> will be reflected in my actions. >> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to prove >> that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, it >> seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >> person's word that they can do the task. It seems to be one big >> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it. As a sighted >> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to >> be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to >> know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >> people feel they have the right to >> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If you >> trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >> everyone else. Personaly, if someone doubts my skills and >> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >> the fact that I am "different". >> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >> Jim >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Jun 19 00:25:10 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:25:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? Message-ID: <20090619002510.27645.46806@web3.serotek.com> Marc, I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a bad thing. I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we can't see. As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument from the NFB. there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to provide it, we'll help them do it. As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used to doing things visually. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. But, > for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people fight > for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed in > order to facilitate easier access? > I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the > organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but > where we part company is on the issue of design. > If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built > environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is > appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because no > amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet > cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it > perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is one > example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that I > know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible currency > are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB > favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if I'm > wrong on this. > So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who > does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services > designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is > that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues > that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the > main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument > goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates > these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the average > sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're > incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because these > adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to oppose > them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if I'm > wrong. > Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate > misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, > but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? > The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't > possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and > can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally > designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They > designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to > determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in > design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be > employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken > into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they > originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly > every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed > based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this > environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that that > is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing > abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these > differences into consideration. > So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it > strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most > people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal > design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best to > educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of > really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate > rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right attitude > when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be > interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I > said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if > someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why > the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > Regards, > Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of alena roberts > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM > To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of > Oregon mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the > world adapt to us? > Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? > This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it > should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but > we also have the right to participate in society which may mean > accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's > opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be > heard. Thanks. > http://www.blindgal.com > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Jun 19 00:30:05 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:30:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination Message-ID: <20090619003005.27645.70670@web3.serotek.com> Arielle, Amen. My thoughts exactly. And if I do experience discrimination, I should be able to call it out without fear of getting labeled as "oversensitive." That's why so many people don't file ADA complaints: they're afraid (and rightfully so_) that people will think them oversensitive, mayve even do harm to them physically, economically, emotionally, etc. If the sighted truly want to be educated, then they need to be able to really hear us and even be willing to deal with the uncomfortable parts of the education process. And yes, blind people should have tact, but calling things as they are should not be mistaken for tactlessness. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all, > Of course we want to know that people have certain skills before we > hire them to do things for us or with us. What I take issue with is > why we take for granted that a sighted person can do something, while > still requiring evidence before believing that a blind person can do > it. If we require proof or evidence from anyone (blind or sighted) > that they can do something, that's fine. But assuming that a sighted > companion will be good at hiking, for example, but requiring evidence > from a blind person just because they're blind is discrimination, > whether or not it's justified. And it's rooted in the assumption that > a blind person's abilities are less or at least different from the > abilities of a sighted individual. > Arielle > On 6/18/09, clinton waterbury wrote: >> I think this is a valid point. I mean... I would want to know if a >> doctor had the right skills to treat a broken leg or something like >> that, or even if someone who was fixing my computer wasn't going to >> just screw it up even worse than it was before. >> It's like when I was at the center for the blind here in salt lake >> city. I tok a woodshop class and managed to make a lamp, and avery >> time someone asks if I got hurt in the process, whitch I did but it >> was vary minor compared to other stuff I've heard about, I just tell >> them what happened and laugh about it seeing as how it was, by all >> accounts, a blunder on my part. >> The thing is though, crying discrimination over just little things is >> there everywhere. >> On the other hand though, if someone is telling me that my imput is >> not valued simpley cause I can't see an image on a screen or anything >> like that, and said individual does research for several large >> companies... Well then I'm gonna call bs on them. >> On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Jim Reed wrote: >>> Hey all, >>> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >>> leads the sighted domination. >>> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >>> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >>> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >>> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >>> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to scream >>> "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid to ask >>> questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to improve the >>> public preception of blindness and blind people. >>> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >>> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >>> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >>> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >>> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >>> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >>> mistakes? >>> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >>> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >>> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >>> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >>> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >>> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >>> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >>> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >>> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >>> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner until/ >>> unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how they >>> have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >>> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >>> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >>> need I know if and how my blind partner can >>> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >>> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >>> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >>> take your word for it. >>> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >>> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >>> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >>> people must prove themselves as well. If you don't want to be >>> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >>> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >>> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >>> will be reflected in my actions. >>> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >>> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to prove >>> that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, it >>> seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >>> person's word that they can do the task. It seems to be one big >>> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >>> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >>> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >>> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it. As a sighted >>> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >>> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >>> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to >>> be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to >>> know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >>> people feel they have the right to >>> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >>> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >>> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If you >>> trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >>> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >>> everyone else. Personaly, if someone doubts my skills and >>> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >>> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >>> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >>> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >>> the fact that I am "different". >>> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >>> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >>> Jim >>> "From compromise and things half done, >>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>> And when at last the fight is won, >>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Jun 19 00:36:03 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:36:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination Message-ID: <20090619003603.26268.79523@web3.serotek.com> Jim, Okay. So, what I hear you saying is that because you're an untrained blind person, your discrimination is justified toward all blind people because there are other blind people who are untrained? I can see where you would feel that way, but I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. For example, you know that I'm a trained blind person because I've told you so. I'm a graduate of the Louisiana Center for the Blind and can travel anywhere I want to go, pay my bills, do what I need to do, etc. So, if what you're saying is true, then you'll justifiably discriminate against me because you're untrained and because there are others who are untrained, and so that's where your bar is set. For me as a trained blind person, that's just plain frustrating! Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Arielle, > If you think my additude is discrimination, I can live with that > because my additude is justified. You see, I am a blind guy without > blindness skills, and in some areas of my life I know my skills are > deficient. Because I am an untrained blind person, I know they exist, > and I can reasonably expect for there to be more than one untrained > blind person out there. Its not that all blind people are incapable, > but some are. And in my case, that is where my doubts about blind > people rise from. > Jim > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > --- On Thu, 6/18/09, Arielle Silverman wrote: > From: Arielle Silverman > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Thursday, June 18, 2009, 2:22 PM > Hi all, > Of course we want to know that people have certain skills before we > hire them to do things for us or with us. What I take issue with is > why we take for granted that a sighted person can do something, while > still requiring evidence before believing that a blind person can do > it. If we require proof or evidence from anyone (blind or sighted) > that they can do something, that's fine. But assuming that a sighted > companion will be good at hiking, for example, but requiring evidence > from a blind person just because they're blind is discrimination, > whether or not it's justified. And it's rooted in the assumption that > a blind person's abilities are less or at least different from the > abilities of a sighted individual. > Arielle > On 6/18/09, clinton waterbury wrote: >> I think this is a valid point.  I mean...  I would want to know if a >> doctor had the right skills to treat a broken leg or something like >> that, or even if someone who was fixing my computer wasn't going to >> just screw it up even worse than it was before. >> It's like when I was at the center for the blind here in salt lake >> city.  I tok a woodshop class and managed to make a lamp, and avery >> time someone asks if I got hurt in the process, whitch I did but it >> was vary minor compared to other stuff I've heard about, I just tell >> them what happened and laugh about it seeing as how it was, by all >> accounts, a blunder on my part. >> The thing is though, crying discrimination over just little things is >> there everywhere. >> On the other hand though, if someone is telling me that my imput is >> not valued simpley cause I can't see an image on a screen or anything >> like that, and said individual does research for several large >> companies...  Well then I'm gonna call bs on them. >> On Jun 17, 2009, at 4:41 PM, Jim Reed wrote: >>> Hey all, >>> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >>> leads the sighted domination. >>> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people are >>> ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. Therefore, >>> education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The other way is >>> to actually do whatever it is the sighted person thinks you cant do. >>> Part of the problem is that some blind people are so quick to scream >>> "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted people are afraid to ask >>> questions; this does nothing to reduce ignorance or to improve the >>> public preception of blindness and blind people. >>> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >>> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >>> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >>> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person supposed >>> to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind people unless >>> they are free and comfortable enough to ask questions and make >>> mistakes? >>> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does not >>> have the confidence (or the necessary information to be confident) >>> in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am sorry, but I am >>> not just going to take your word for it that you can be independent >>> until you prove it to me. I am not going to put a blind person >>> through an obstacle course just to decide if I want to be their >>> friend, but it seems like it would be awfully hard to treat a blind >>> person as "one of the guys" until they first prove that they are >>> indeed capable of being just "one of the guys". Similarly, I am not >>> going to go hiking in the wilderness with a blind partner until/ >>> unless I knowhow their vision limits their function, and how they >>> have overcome this limitation. This is not a sighted domination >>> issue, this is a practical issue with potential life and death >>> consiquences. Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I >>> need I know if and how my blind partner can >>> handle the situation. If my life is potentially in their hands, I >>> have a need and a right to know that they can do what needs to be >>> done, and I am sorry, but in this situation I am not just going to >>> take your word for it. >>> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, confidence, >>> and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not given. This is >>> not an attitude that I only take towards blind people, sighted >>> people must prove themselves as well.  If you don't want to be >>> dominated, then you need to prove to me that you can handle >>> yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always going to be >>> somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I might, my doubts >>> will be reflected in my actions. >>> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted people >>> accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely required to prove >>> that we do indeed have the skills we claim to have. However, it >>> seems that the sighted are just supposed to accept the blind >>> person's word that they can do the task.  It seems to be one big >>> secret as to how blind people do task, there are laws preventing an >>> employer from asking how the blind person would do the job, some >>> blind people get pissed when you ask them if, or how they can do >>> something, and, god forbid you ask them to prove it.  As a sighted >>> person, everyone knows (with a fair amount of certianty) what your >>> basic skills and abilities are, and they know (with a fair amount of >>> certianty) how you accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to >>> be treated as equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to >>> know if, and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind >>> people feel they have the right to >>> get pissed off if I ask them if or how thay can do something, >>> whereas I can ask any of my sighted friends the exact same questions >>> without them thinking I am dominating or custodializing them? If you >>> trueky want to be equals, then you all need to put up with, and >>> handle, the same crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as >>> everyone else. Personaly,  if someone doubts my skills and >>> abilities, I don't cry domination or discrimination, instead I >>> either attempt to prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to >>> piss off. If I am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself >>> by crying discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on >>> the fact that I am "different". >>> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >>> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of late. >>> Jim >>> "From compromise and things half done, >>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>> And when at last the fight is won, >>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From alberto.2500 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 00:38:53 2009 From: alberto.2500 at gmail.com (alberto arreola) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:38:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question In-Reply-To: <006e01c9efe3$2e38f870$8aaae950$@net> References: <006e01c9efe3$2e38f870$8aaae950$@net> Message-ID: <4a3ade20.16078e0a.278a.1d3e@mx.google.com> Jim, Verizon has quite a few phone's you could probably get your hands on. You could get almost any windows mobile phone from them and get Mobile speak for it from code factory.es, the thing depends on how much you are willing to spend on a phone. These programs run around 300 dollars for the talking program and 250 for the screen magnifier I believe. Now if you decide to go with this you get a 30 day trial with these programs to see if you like them. If you do you just look for the person in your area that sells it, and you pay for which ever software you get, or if you don't like it just remove it off your phone. Your other option is to see what the price of the screen reader for black berry "Orator" will be when it's released. Now you could also go with their Moto Q 9 C, but I've never seen it so I don't know how reliable it can be for you. Now the only problem with this is that most phone companies give you a 14 day return on their phones so that's another thing to think about when making a choice of this kind. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 1:06 AM To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'; 'NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List' Subject: [nabs-l] Cell phone question Howdy, I know there's no real list regarding this subject, but I'm wanting to talk with some people who are using the Verizon network for cell phone service. My contract with Sprint will end on June 30th. It is with Sprint. I may want to change to a phone that can have good speech software. I'd love the KNFB reader, but it is so expensive and I don't think I could use Verizon with it, right? Thanks for any information you can provide. Jim _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alberto.2500%40gmail .com From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 00:43:46 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:43:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1941BF16F8AE44F7BEC70B7C9C666E6E@Rufus> Marc, You're looking for a debate where no debate is warranted. We agree. There is, to my knowledge, no law requiring schools at any level to provide anyone to show a blind student where anything is located on a college campus. I could be wrong but I believe everything concerning accommodations has to do with the classroom itself. My argument for a school providing this orientation service has to do with the same kind of common courtesy I myself would show someone if asked the location of a building or room. When I first arrived at Texas State I requested someone from the disability office to show me the buildings my first semester. After that, if I was going out to a part of campus I had not as yet learned, I asked a friend, or sometimes a reader, to do me the favor of showing me the building I needed. From the part of the university I believe the gesture to be so small as to negate any reason they would have for not fulfilling the request. And, if the school does not provide the service, the student can ask someone else to do them the favor. In summary, I believe schools should provide this minimal form of orientation not out of a legal obligation but out of a sense of simple human kindness. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Joe, You said "the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy." Then you said, "a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to their classrooms." You have to admit there is some ambiguity here. My guess is that what you are saying is that the school does have a responsibility to provide the service, but that in cases where the school is not providing this service, it is then up to the student to find his or her own way. If that is indeed what you meant, then we agree, but that is not at all what you implied in the original post. You made it sound like the school, quote, need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, end quote, but a student could request this of the school, and the school would be hard pressed to say no. You offer the example of going to the newspapers, which suggest that a student could shame them into doing it. For me, however, there is a big difference between saying the school is failing to meet its responsibilities, and saying that the school would have a difficult time facing a public shaming. The latter assertion doesn't imply that the school has any responsibility whatsoever, and it really sounded like you were adopting the latter position. Now, I really can't tell if you favour the former, like me, or the latter. No sarcasm at all. Those are only minimal standards of accessibility that came off the top of my head. If I thought about it, I could come up with many others. It may be true that absolutely no school meets even these minimal criteria (I really have no idea), but that is beside the point. The point is that, unless the school does meet the criteria, the school has a responsibility to assist students with orientation to classrooms and other destinations. If a school were fully accessible, then I could accept the argument that it is entirely the student's responsibility, but, as you said, no schools are, so the school thus has a responsibility. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:56 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Marc, Your tone suggests it would be wrong of me to say it is the responsibility of the blind person to find their own classrooms? This is your criteria for deeming a campus accessible: 1. Fully accessible maps 2. Braille on every classroom door 3. Accessible elevators 4. Constructed in a way that requires little orientation for the blind individual I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, correct me if I'm wrong. But no institution could come clean on all four points, and even if it planned to do so in the future, there is still the matter of the here and now where the blind student still needs to find their way. My e-mail very clearly suggests a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to their classrooms. Imagine how that would pan out in the local newspapers? But, yes, ultimately, if the university is taking its sweet time about getting its act together, it is the responsibility of the student to find their way around campus just as it is their responsibility, and not the school's, to have the assignments completed. The student should file a complaint or do whatever they need to do to rectify the situation, but I'm referring to what needs to be done today because when classes start the student needs to get there with or without the university's assistance. College is, after all, one step away from real life, and accessible maps, labeled doors and such are certainly not a part of finding the office for an interview. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not through assistance from the university, then whose responsibility is it. My gut tells me you will say that it is of course the blind person's responsibility, but my gut has been wrong in the past. Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless the university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every classroom door, accessible elevators, and is constructed in a manner that requires little in the way of orientation for a blind person to get around, then the university does have a responsibility to offer this sort of assistance. In Canada anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is a reasonable accommodation that doesn't impose an undo hardship, and I suspect the same would be true in american law. But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe it is. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake this task. If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person to his or her classes. A blind student need not have government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In turn, the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to help you move forward with something more solid with the school. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman %40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman %40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From JWilson at nfb.org Fri Jun 19 01:36:09 2009 From: JWilson at nfb.org (Wilson, Joanne) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:36:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention Message-ID: ---------- From: Berggren, John Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:17 PM To: NCB Staff For those of you travelling to convention, you'll notice that just a couple hundred yards across the Detroit River is Canada, our neighbor to the north (or in this unusual case, our neighbor to the south). Though you will need a passport to cross the border, your cell phone doesn't. Depending where you are in the hotel, your cell phone (or data card) may give up on a weak signal from your carrier and switch to the Rogers Communications cell signal from Canada. This constitutes international roaming and can be very expensive. Unless you have a contract that includes it, you might consider contacting your provider to disable international roaming, if only for the first couple of weeks of July. I found AT&T to be very helpful in providing assistance with my request. To make it a bit easier for those interested, here are contact numbers for the various carriers: AT&T : 611 or 800-331-0500 Sprint : *2, press Talk or 888-211-4727 T-Mobile : 800-937-8997 Verizon : *611 or 800-922-0204 Virgin Mobile : 888-322-1122 Here's to no cell phone bill surprises, eh? If you supervise anyone without e-mail, please advise any of those attending convention. Regards, John From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 02:02:13 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:02:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> I think that attitude ignores that accessibility benefits more than the people it is originally intended to. When I cross a street that has an audible signal I not only pay attention to the sounds from the signal, but I also listen to my traffic. I had the priveledge of getting O and M training. Not everyone gets the training they need. Audible signals also help people who can see, and those who may have low vision. Fighting against accessibility doesn't help anyone, especially people with disabilities. I think we need to support teaching people skills and having things be accessible to us at the same time. For those of you that don't think that our money doesn't descriminate against the blind, I respectfully disagree. Almost all other countries in the world have money that is easily distinguishable, and we don't. There are simple modifications that can be made to our bills to make them distinguishable. The EU even made sure to talk to the blind community before designing the Euro so that they made sure it would be usable by all citizens. I shouldn't have to use a machine to tell what denomination of money I am using because the treasury department thinks it's too hard to change the money. Just some thoughts. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From mworkman at ualberta.ca Fri Jun 19 02:22:13 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:22:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <1941BF16F8AE44F7BEC70B7C9C666E6E@Rufus> Message-ID: Joe, I don't think we do agree. You're saying that the nice thing to do is for universities to assist students to orient themselves around campus, assuming that the student doesn't already receive this assistance through some other program. So it's nice that schools do this, but it isn't exactly wrong if they don't. A school that refused to do this would simply not be acting in accordance with common courtesy or human kindness. There is a pretty significant gap between that position and arguing that a school that fails to provide this reasonable accommodation, where providing the accommodation would not constitute an undo hardship, is failing to fulfill its legal/moral obligations. I include moral there because I don't care if this is mandated by law. If it isn't, then it should be. I think the difference between not acting nicely and failing to meet obligations is a real difference with serious legal/moral implications. For one, you can refuse to act kindly without being forced to pay a penalty. It's true, you might occasionally be made to pay a penalty through bad publicity, but you just as easily may not. Refuse to obey the law, on the other hand, and you are always subject to being penalized. Rather than this being an unwarranted debate, I think it reflects much deeper disagreements about personal responsibility, the role of government, and the effectiveness of legal requirements. Given its ties to these deeper issues, the debate is probably useless, but not unwarranted. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:44 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Marc, You're looking for a debate where no debate is warranted. We agree. There is, to my knowledge, no law requiring schools at any level to provide anyone to show a blind student where anything is located on a college campus. I could be wrong but I believe everything concerning accommodations has to do with the classroom itself. My argument for a school providing this orientation service has to do with the same kind of common courtesy I myself would show someone if asked the location of a building or room. When I first arrived at Texas State I requested someone from the disability office to show me the buildings my first semester. After that, if I was going out to a part of campus I had not as yet learned, I asked a friend, or sometimes a reader, to do me the favor of showing me the building I needed. From the part of the university I believe the gesture to be so small as to negate any reason they would have for not fulfilling the request. And, if the school does not provide the service, the student can ask someone else to do them the favor. In summary, I believe schools should provide this minimal form of orientation not out of a legal obligation but out of a sense of simple human kindness. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:07 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Joe, You said "the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy." Then you said, "a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to their classrooms." You have to admit there is some ambiguity here. My guess is that what you are saying is that the school does have a responsibility to provide the service, but that in cases where the school is not providing this service, it is then up to the student to find his or her own way. If that is indeed what you meant, then we agree, but that is not at all what you implied in the original post. You made it sound like the school, quote, need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, end quote, but a student could request this of the school, and the school would be hard pressed to say no. You offer the example of going to the newspapers, which suggest that a student could shame them into doing it. For me, however, there is a big difference between saying the school is failing to meet its responsibilities, and saying that the school would have a difficult time facing a public shaming. The latter assertion doesn't imply that the school has any responsibility whatsoever, and it really sounded like you were adopting the latter position. Now, I really can't tell if you favour the former, like me, or the latter. No sarcasm at all. Those are only minimal standards of accessibility that came off the top of my head. If I thought about it, I could come up with many others. It may be true that absolutely no school meets even these minimal criteria (I really have no idea), but that is beside the point. The point is that, unless the school does meet the criteria, the school has a responsibility to assist students with orientation to classrooms and other destinations. If a school were fully accessible, then I could accept the argument that it is entirely the student's responsibility, but, as you said, no schools are, so the school thus has a responsibility. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:56 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Marc, Your tone suggests it would be wrong of me to say it is the responsibility of the blind person to find their own classrooms? This is your criteria for deeming a campus accessible: 1. Fully accessible maps 2. Braille on every classroom door 3. Accessible elevators 4. Constructed in a way that requires little orientation for the blind individual I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, correct me if I'm wrong. But no institution could come clean on all four points, and even if it planned to do so in the future, there is still the matter of the here and now where the blind student still needs to find their way. My e-mail very clearly suggests a school should have no excuses not to show the blind student to their classrooms. Imagine how that would pan out in the local newspapers? But, yes, ultimately, if the university is taking its sweet time about getting its act together, it is the responsibility of the student to find their way around campus just as it is their responsibility, and not the school's, to have the assignments completed. The student should file a complaint or do whatever they need to do to rectify the situation, but I'm referring to what needs to be done today because when classes start the student needs to get there with or without the university's assistance. College is, after all, one step away from real life, and accessible maps, labeled doors and such are certainly not a part of finding the office for an interview. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of mworkman at ualberta.ca Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help I'm curious Joe, if not through public funding, and if not through assistance from the university, then whose responsibility is it. My gut tells me you will say that it is of course the blind person's responsibility, but my gut has been wrong in the past. Just in case my gut is right this time, I would say that unless the university provides fully accessible maps, braille on every classroom door, accessible elevators, and is constructed in a manner that requires little in the way of orientation for a blind person to get around, then the university does have a responsibility to offer this sort of assistance. In Canada anyways, I think it would be pretty easy to argue that this is a reasonable accommodation that doesn't impose an undo hardship, and I suspect the same would be true in american law. But I am genuinely curious whose responsibility you believe it is. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:35 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Someone from the disability office should be able to undertake this task. If such an office does not exist, as may be true in a private institution, there is still some type of compliance officer on hand who should find a student worker to show the blind person to his or her classes. A blind student need not have government assistance to be shown this courtesy. In turn, the school need not be expected to carry out this courtesy, but I think they will be hard-pressed not to do such a small favor. Keep us posted, and write to me off list if you need someone to help you move forward with something more solid with the school. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of V Nork Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:48 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4160 (20090616) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman %40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman %40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From mworkman at ualberta.ca Fri Jun 19 03:30:52 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:30:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <20090619002510.27645.46806@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: Jedi said, I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a bad thing. That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only included products and services while I always said environments, products, and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of products and services, it does not support universal design of the built environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively opposes it. Jedi said, The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we can't see. Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not believe in universal design of the environment. What you call over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about blindness. My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations are only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in a manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways that would make them less necessary? I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would respond to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able to square these two things. Looking forward to a response when you have time. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Jedi Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? Marc, I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a bad thing. I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we can't see. As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument from the NFB. there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to provide it, we'll help them do it. As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used to doing things visually. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. But, > for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people fight > for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed in > order to facilitate easier access? > I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the > organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but > where we part company is on the issue of design. > If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built > environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is > appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because no > amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet > cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it > perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is one > example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that I > know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible currency > are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB > favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if I'm > wrong on this. > So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who > does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services > designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is > that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues > that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the > main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument > goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates > these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the average > sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're > incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because these > adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to oppose > them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if I'm > wrong. > Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate > misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, > but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? > The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't > possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and > can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally > designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They > designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to > determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in > design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be > employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken > into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they > originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly > every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed > based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this > environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that that > is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing > abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these > differences into consideration. > So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it > strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most > people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal > design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best to > educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of > really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate > rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right attitude > when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be > interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I > said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if > someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why > the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > Regards, > Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of alena roberts > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM > To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of > Oregon mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the > world adapt to us? > Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? > This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it > should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but > we also have the right to participate in society which may mean > accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's > opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be > heard. Thanks. > http://www.blindgal.com > -- > Alena Roberts > Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 05:16:31 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:16:31 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: References: <20090619002510.27645.46806@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I'm really tired and so will provide only a brief response here--will elaborate more later. I won't try to speak for the NFB, but will share my personal opinion and a new angle on this issue. I am personally in full support of universal design principles and practices. I don't think that having universally accessible systems in place perpetuates prejudice or misconceptions. However, I do think the critical question is "How much should we fight for environmental modifications?" rather than "Should the environment be changed?" In answering the former question I do think that fighting too much is what can hurt blind people. This is because we have limited energy, time and resources. Whenever we choose to fight more on one issue, I think time, money, and energy that could be spent on another issue is taken away. That kind of trade-off is really what we're facing here. Again, more on this later, but it gives you something else to think about. Arielle On 6/19/09, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: > Jedi said, > > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll > ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a > bad thing. > > That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where > I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue > that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous > instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only > included products and services while I always said environments, products, > and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is > about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of > products and services, it does not support universal design of the built > environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively > opposes it. > > Jedi said, > > The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes > from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because > we can't see. > > Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not > believe in universal design of the environment. What you call > over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that > statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the > negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I > suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part > in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from > misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in > terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't > necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. > > So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB > opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, > unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) > the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such > modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about > blindness. > > My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose > something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes > more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and > how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And > actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I > recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing > everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create > disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that > leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. > > I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want > to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those > issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact > supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible > signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations are > only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I > suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, > is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you > might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, > youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in a > manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the > training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make > these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways > that would make them less necessary? > > I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design > of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a > sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would respond > to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested > in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social > construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able > to square these two things. > > Looking forward to a response when you have time. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Jedi > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the > world adapt to us? > > > Marc, > > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that > you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services > user-friendly is a bad thing. > > I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible > currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, > I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. > > With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. > Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind > think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest > needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be > accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity > for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every > corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary > environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious > when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few > neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does > believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and > reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we > can't see. > > As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were > frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that > non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, > we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. > For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill > identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were > outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility > features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally > reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our > big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably > all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. > > In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all > the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what > access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible > based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals > chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. > That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that > accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real > need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument > from the NFB. > > there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. > We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue > except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to > provide it, we'll help them do it. > > As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's > more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I > just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my > responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when > sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or > just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used > to doing things visually. > > Respectfully Submitted > Original message: >> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. > But, >> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people > fight >> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed > in >> order to facilitate easier access? > >> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the >> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >> where we part company is on the issue of design. > >> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because > no >> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is > one >> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that > I >> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible > currency >> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if > I'm >> wrong on this. > >> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues >> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the > average >> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because > these >> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to > oppose >> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if > I'm >> wrong. > >> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that > that >> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >> differences into consideration. > >> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best > to >> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > >> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate >> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right > attitude >> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > >> Regards, > >> Marc > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of alena roberts >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >> Oregon mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >> world adapt to us? > > >> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >> heard. Thanks. > >> http://www.blindgal.com > >> -- >> Alena Roberts >> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 05:37:16 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 22:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance, prejudice, and sighted domination Message-ID: <518133.13367.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Jedi, Arielle, and others, I know some of the post that I have writ en about ignorance, prejudice, and sighted domination may have made me seem like an ass hole, and I don't know, maybe I am. But I am being forced (not literally) into a culture that as of six months ago, I did not give a damn about, and forced (literally) into a lifestyle that I so desperately hoped to avoid (blindness). All of a sudden, I am now being forced to make decisions and judgments about things, people, abilities, and disabilities that I have never had to make before, and I don't have adequate knowledge or experience to make those decisions. I suppose that with time and immersion, I will "get it", but for now, I guess I really don't. Or maybe I get it in theory, but not in practice. Until I "get it", I can only judge other blind people by the same standards as I expect to be judged; I expect to earn everything I get, and I expect to be judged based on my actions. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From rmlambert1987 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 06:33:03 2009 From: rmlambert1987 at yahoo.com (Rob Lambert) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question Message-ID: <354240.8522.qm@web56103.mail.re3.yahoo.com> It's enV (spelled e n cap v) 3 Sent from my iPod On Jun 18, 2009, at 23:19, "Serena" wrote: I have an LG phone, not sure if it's the "NV2," but it does say who texts you, but it won't read the message. It does identify who's calling you and lets you call people and check voicemails, missed calls, battery level, date, and time all by voice. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin LaRose" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Verizon Wireless Network Question I have heard that the LG phone requires sighted assistance to get set up. It also, as I understand it, doesn't announce who text messages come from. I may be in the market for it after all, however, as it looks like the Motorola Q is "no longer available at this time" according to the Verizon Wireless website. Kevin L. I'm protected by SpamBrave http://www.spambrave.com/ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rmlambert1987%40yahoo.com From len at gatamundo.com Fri Jun 19 07:58:03 2009 From: len at gatamundo.com (Len Burns) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 00:58:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance, prejudice, and sighted domination In-Reply-To: <518133.13367.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <518133.13367.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A3B450B.5020602@gatamundo.com> Jim, To expect to earn everything you get and be judged upon your actions is about as fair as it gets. That is how sighted people treat one another, and how they ought to treat us. All humans have differences and similarities, and people adjust differently to them. People do or do not like others because of gender, race, sexual orientation, disability, and a few hundred other aspects of being human. When I am in a room full of people, I know that within that group there are those who will be forever anxious because I walk out my door each day, those who may not be familiar with me but are far more interested in my role in the group than if I can see, and a majority who fall somewhere between those extremes. Those in the middle ground are people I can likely influence if I have enough time and contact. When I was hired for my last job, I learned that several people had confronted the hiring manager regarding his decition to hire me. They told him that I would be unable to work with the population we served. At that time, I had been a licensed family therapist for over 15 years, and had worked in everything from private practice to the toughest agency settings. aI knew who they were, and took it upon myself to win them through professional respect. In this case I was successful. Over the years, I can count the number of clients who have responded negatively to my blindness on about two fingers. Because I am skilled at my trade, the focus is upon the reasons they are in my office, whether or not I can see is a practical matter. -Len Jim Reed wrote: > Jedi, Arielle, and others, > > I know some of the post that I have writ en about ignorance, > prejudice, and sighted domination may have made me seem like an ass > hole, and I don't know, maybe I am. But I am being forced (not > literally) into a culture that as of six months ago, I did not give a > damn about, and forced (literally) into a lifestyle that I so > desperately hoped to avoid (blindness). All of a sudden, I am now > being forced to make decisions and judgments about things, people, > abilities, and disabilities that I have never had to make before, and > I don't have adequate knowledge or experience to make those > decisions. I suppose that with time and immersion, I will "get it", > but for now, I guess I really don't. Or maybe I get it in theory, but > not in practice. Until I "get it", I can only judge other blind > people by the same standards as I expect to be judged; I expect to > earn everything I get, and I expect to be judged based on my actions. > > > Thanks, Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and > stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still > unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To > unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com From len at gatamundo.com Fri Jun 19 08:14:31 2009 From: len at gatamundo.com (Len Burns) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 01:14:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <20090619002510.27645.46806@web3.serotek.com> References: <20090619002510.27645.46806@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: <4A3B48E7.8040402@gatamundo.com> As regards audible signals, while you are likely correct as to the official position, I think it no secret the influence the NFB has exerted on this issue. As far as the noise factor, if the correct kind of audible signals are used, there is no noise. If it is a loud chirping signal, it is a nuisance. If it is among those that make a soft clicking sound so that, heaven forbid, I can actually find the button without looking like a bumbling fool, followed by an audible announcement when the light has changed, they bother no one. I have been making street crossings for a very long time, since long before audible signals existed. Although I am highly skilled in this pastime, I would prefer the same information as my sighted peers when the light changes. The discussion of money below is a distortion of the issue. As you well know, the U.S. is one of the few industrialized countries who still uses paper notes that cannot be distinguished by touch. Yes, we all live with this, and we survive, but the absurdity is not lost. I belong to neither organization for many reasons, but the biggest one is that I call things as I see them, not by an organizations party line. I have lived much of the philosophy that the NFB claims for its own for most of my life and shall continue to do so. -Len Jedi wrote: > Marc, > > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that > you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services > user-friendly is a bad thing. > > I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible > currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, > I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. > > With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. > Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind > think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest > needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be > accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity for > good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every > corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary > environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious > when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few > neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does believe > that overmodification of the environment both comes from and reinforces > the idea that blind people are severely limited because we can't see. > > As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were > frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that > non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, > we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. > For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill > identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were > outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility > features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally > reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our > big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably > all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. > > In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all > the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what > access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible > based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals > chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. > That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that > accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real need, > not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument from > the NFB. > > there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. > We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue except > where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to provide > it, we'll help them do it. > > As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's > more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I just > can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my > responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when > sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or > just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used to > doing things visually. > > Respectfully Submitted > Original message: >> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this >> list. But, >> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >> fight >> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are >> designed in >> order to facilitate easier access? > >> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think >> the >> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >> where we part company is on the issue of design. > >> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is >> because no >> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals >> is one >> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say >> that I >> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >> currency >> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me >> if I'm >> wrong on this. > >> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically >> seen is >> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB >> argues >> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only >> perpetuates >> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >> average >> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >> these >> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >> oppose >> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me >> if I'm >> wrong. > >> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who >> originally >> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when >> they >> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with >> this >> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >> that >> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >> differences into consideration. > >> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because >> most >> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our >> best to >> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > >> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack >> adequate >> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >> attitude >> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, >> and if >> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > >> Regards, > >> Marc > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of alena roberts >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >> Oregon mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >> world adapt to us? > > >> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >> heard. Thanks. > >> http://www.blindgal.com > >> -- >> Alena Roberts >> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> >> ca > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > From len at gatamundo.com Fri Jun 19 08:21:43 2009 From: len at gatamundo.com (Len Burns) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 01:21:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Prejudice, ignorance, and sighted domination In-Reply-To: References: <511900.95509.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <573E21F8-C644-47CA-84E2-467CCC1DC067@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A3B4A97.6070401@gatamundo.com> Arielle I do not like the below either, but unfortunately it does have some basis in fact. While I have little doubt of your competence, blind people in this culture are not expected to develop the same competences as their sighted peers. For this reason, the additional concern about a blind persons ability to perfunction an activity is not always unwarranted. We are not expected to be competent, and simultaneously blamed because we are not. -Len Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > Of course we want to know that people have certain skills before we > hire them to do things for us or with us. What I take issue with is > why we take for granted that a sighted person can do something, while > still requiring evidence before believing that a blind person can do > it. If we require proof or evidence from anyone (blind or sighted) > that they can do something, that's fine. But assuming that a sighted > companion will be good at hiking, for example, but requiring evidence > from a blind person just because they're blind is discrimination, > whether or not it's justified. And it's rooted in the assumption that > a blind person's abilities are less or at least different from the > abilities of a sighted individual. > > Arielle > > On 6/18/09, clinton waterbury wrote: >> I think this is a valid point. I mean... I would want to know if >> a doctor had the right skills to treat a broken leg or something >> like that, or even if someone who was fixing my computer wasn't >> going to just screw it up even worse than it was before. It's like >> when I was at the center for the blind here in salt lake city. I >> tok a woodshop class and managed to make a lamp, and avery time >> someone asks if I got hurt in the process, whitch I did but it was >> vary minor compared to other stuff I've heard about, I just tell >> them what happened and laugh about it seeing as how it was, by all >> accounts, a blunder on my part. The thing is though, crying >> discrimination over just little things is there everywhere. On the >> other hand though, if someone is telling me that my imput is not >> valued simpley cause I can't see an image on a screen or anything >> like that, and said individual does research for several large >> companies... Well then I'm gonna call bs on them. On Jun 17, 2009, >> at 4:41 PM, Jim Reed wrote: >> >>> Hey all, >>> >>> I wanted to start a slightly different topic as to how ignorance >>> leads the sighted domination. >>> >>> First of all, sighted domination occurs because sighted people >>> are ignorant of what blind people can do, or how they do it. >>> Therefore, education is one way to avoid sighted domination. The >>> other way is to actually do whatever it is the sighted person >>> thinks you cant do. Part of the problem is that some blind people >>> are so quick to scream "sighted domination" that ignorant sighted >>> people are afraid to ask questions; this does nothing to reduce >>> ignorance or to improve the public preception of blindness and >>> blind people. >>> >>> Second, like it or not, blindness does play a role in defining >>> relationships; it defines how people interact, how they share >>> information, and what activities they participate in. How is a >>> sighted person who has never interacted with a blind person >>> supposed to know what is appropreate to do or say around blind >>> people unless they are free and comfortable enough to ask >>> questions and make mistakes? >>> >>> Much sighted domination occurs because the sighted person does >>> not have the confidence (or the necessary information to be >>> confident) in the skills and abilities of a blind person. I am >>> sorry, but I am not just going to take your word for it that you >>> can be independent until you prove it to me. I am not going to >>> put a blind person through an obstacle course just to decide if I >>> want to be their friend, but it seems like it would be awfully >>> hard to treat a blind person as "one of the guys" until they >>> first prove that they are indeed capable of being just "one of >>> the guys". Similarly, I am not going to go hiking in the >>> wilderness with a blind partner until/ unless I knowhow their >>> vision limits their function, and how they have overcome this >>> limitation. This is not a sighted domination issue, this is a >>> practical issue with potential life and death consiquences. >>> Before I break my leg five miles in the backcountry, I need I >>> know if and how my blind partner can handle the situation. If my >>> life is potentially in their hands, I have a need and a right to >>> know that they can do what needs to be done, and I am sorry, but >>> in this situation I am not just going to take your word for it. >>> >>> I guess the bottom line is, in my mind, that equality, >>> confidence, and acceptance, much like respect, are earned, not >>> given. This is not an attitude that I only take towards blind >>> people, sighted people must prove themselves as well. If you >>> don't want to be dominated, then you need to prove to me that you >>> can handle yourself; until then, try as I might, I am always >>> going to be somewhat doubtful of your abilites, and try as I >>> might, my doubts will be reflected in my actions. >>> >>> One last note on equality. It is common knowledge how sighted >>> people accomplish tasks, and sighted people are routinely >>> required to prove that we do indeed have the skills we claim to >>> have. However, it seems that the sighted are just supposed to >>> accept the blind person's word that they can do the task. It >>> seems to be one big secret as to how blind people do task, there >>> are laws preventing an employer from asking how the blind person >>> would do the job, some blind people get pissed when you ask them >>> if, or how they can do something, and, god forbid you ask them to >>> prove it. As a sighted person, everyone knows (with a fair >>> amount of certianty) what your basic skills and abilities are, >>> and they know (with a fair amount of certianty) how you >>> accomplish your task. So, if blind people want to be treated as >>> equals, why shouldnt sighted people have the right to know if, >>> and how you can do something? And, why is it that blind people >>> feel they have the right to get pissed off if I ask them if or >>> how thay can do something, whereas I can ask any of my sighted >>> friends the exact same questions without them thinking I am >>> dominating or custodializing them? If you trueky want to be >>> equals, then you all need to put up with, and handle, the same >>> crap as everyone else, and in the same manner as everyone else. >>> Personaly, if someone doubts my skills and abilities, I don't >>> cry domination or discrimination, instead I either attempt to >>> prove them wrong, I ignore them, or I tell them to piss off. If I >>> am truely an equal in society, I don't defend myself by crying >>> discrimination, and I don't justify my actions based on the fact >>> that I am "different". >>> >>> I don't know, I guess this is the sighted side of me talking, but >>> these are some of the things I have been thinking about as of >>> late. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> >>> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and >>> stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me >>> still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing >>> list nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >>> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To >> unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> > > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To > unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Jun 19 10:42:55 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 06:42:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? Message-ID: <20090619104255.14007.58237@web1.serotek.com> well, the NFB isn't against universal design as a principle. i think it's a matter of supporting design that doesn't support the perpetuation of stereotypes and the like. Respectfully, Kedi Original message: > Jedi said, > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll > ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a > bad thing. > That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where > I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue > that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous > instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only > included products and services while I always said environments, products, > and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is > about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of > products and services, it does not support universal design of the built > environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively > opposes it. > Jedi said, > The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes > from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because > we can't see. > Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not > believe in universal design of the environment. What you call > over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that > statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the > negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I > suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part > in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from > misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in > terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't > necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. > So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB > opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, > unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) > the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such > modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about > blindness. > My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose > something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes > more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and > how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And > actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I > recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing > everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create > disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that > leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. > I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want > to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those > issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact > supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible > signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations are > only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I > suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, > is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you > might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, > youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in a > manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the > training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make > these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways > that would make them less necessary? > I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design > of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a > sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would respond > to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested > in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social > construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able > to square these two things. > Looking forward to a response when you have time. > Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Jedi > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the > world adapt to us? > Marc, > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that > you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services > user-friendly is a bad thing. > I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible > currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, > I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. > With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. > Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind > think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest > needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be > accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity > for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every > corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary > environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious > when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few > neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does > believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and > reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we > can't see. > As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were > frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that > non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, > we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. > For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill > identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were > outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility > features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally > reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our > big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably > all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. > In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all > the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what > access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible > based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals > chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. > That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that > accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real > need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument > from the NFB. > there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. > We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue > except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to > provide it, we'll help them do it. > As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's > more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I > just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my > responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when > sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or > just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used > to doing things visually. > Respectfully Submitted > Original message: >> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. > But, >> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people > fight >> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed > in >> order to facilitate easier access? >> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the >> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >> where we part company is on the issue of design. >> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because > no >> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is > one >> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that > I >> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible > currency >> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if > I'm >> wrong on this. >> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues >> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the > average >> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because > these >> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to > oppose >> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if > I'm >> wrong. >> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that > that >> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >> differences into consideration. >> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best > to >> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate >> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right > attitude >> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >> Regards, >> Marc >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of alena roberts >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >> Oregon mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >> world adapt to us? >> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >> heard. Thanks. >> http://www.blindgal.com >> -- >> Alena Roberts >> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Jun 19 14:04:37 2009 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:04:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <20090619104255.14007.58237@web1.serotek.com> Message-ID: Over the years, this is a subject that has seemed to me to be often overlooked and oversimplified for the sake of making arguments. I don't claim to know all the thought processes behind all members of the NFB who feel that our positions are generally correct, but I do know my processes and at least my tendency to look at universal environmental design negatively is based only to a small degree upon the image that some aspects can perpetuate. Having said that, I believe that perpetuating a negative image needs to be considered and is not worth it if the gain isn't significant. The first thing that bothers me about taking positions based upon universal environmental design as portrayed here is that is allows us to stop considering what are the gains and the losses. To take a position simply because it is believed we have a right to it without considering the costs and the benefits won't serve us well in the long run. Second, we operate within a society that assumes by default that most activities cannot be performed unaided by blind persons. Certainly there are exceptions, we're all good at music, for example, but in general the assumption is that most things suggested are thought not to be something we can do. As a result, we often believe we can't do many things until we see others doing it or until we are pressed to push ourselves a little. Much of this "pushing" happens for many of us in adjustment to blindness training and through our exposure to other successful blind people. The result of some of the "pushing" that happens is that we find that many things we think are difficult to do turn out to be an everyday happening after a time. Some of what we must "push" to do is not truly due to it being difficult, but rather, a result of having to push against society's and our own beliefs of what we can do. If we are not careful of what we build into an environment, we will build into it those things that society believes we cannot do, minimizing our chances to develop our own skills. Beyond that, we are part of society, and as such, those of us who are lucky enough to be tax payers should be concerned as to whether the money spent is something that truly makes our lives better. What about the fact that some of us need certain help while others of us do not? This is again a problem faced by all society and it is not one with simple answers. To try to come up with a universal design in an environmental sense that meets everyone's needs is not necessarily the way to go. For some needs, a universal design will never be adequate and the needs will have to be met through specialized services. To think we will solve all problems through a universal approach will likely reduce the chances of some groups having special needs from getting the specialized services that they need. In some cases, creating a universal approach that tries to meet everybody's needs will either be too expensive or not serve anyone effectively while providing a false sense that everyone is truly better off. What I believe we in the NFB have tried to do is to try to look at many larger issues individually rather than taking the position that since sighted people have it, it must be provided to us. This philosophy may well be something we all agree applies to specific larger issues, but I do not personally believe it is a general rule to follow for every issue. For example, my guess is that we all would agree that blind people need to have as equal access as possible to education. However, that does not mean that every aspect of education will be handled in the same way. For example, most printed maps cannot simply be raised or made tactual as is. They are simply too complicated. We are going to need to get information filtered in some way to extract the educational value that we need. We need equal access, but equal access isn't always going to be the same access. There are other environmental issues that are similar where broader access doesn't imply that all access at all levels will be exactly what sighted persons get. We need to define what we need in some cases or figure out how we can adapt to make a solution most effective. We have to think ahead. Some on this list will learn the hard way that some of the services provided by colleges to provide equal access prevent one from developing skills necessary in many employment situations. The same can be true of other solutions to access that adapt the environment in some cases for short term or specific gains but don't take the longer view of how they might affect us. I think this is a very important and interesting topic and hope there is more careful discussion without getting too bogged down in specific issues that have emotional baggage that make them hard to discuss. Best regards, Steve Jacobson Original message: >> Jedi said, >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll >> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a >> bad thing. >> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where >> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue >> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >> included products and services while I always said environments, products, >> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is >> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively >> opposes it. >> Jedi said, >> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because >> we can't see. >> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the >> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part >> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in >> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. >> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB >> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, >> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) >> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such >> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >> blindness. >> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose >> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes >> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and >> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I >> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that >> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. >> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want >> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those >> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations are >> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, >> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you >> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in a >> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make >> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways >> that would make them less necessary? >> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design >> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would respond >> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested >> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social >> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able >> to square these two things. >> Looking forward to a response when you have time. >> Marc >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of Jedi >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >> world adapt to us? >> Marc, >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >> user-friendly is a bad thing. >> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. >> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >> can't see. >> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. >> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >> from the NFB. >> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >> provide it, we'll help them do it. >> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >> to doing things visually. >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >> But, >>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >> fight >>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed >> in >>> order to facilitate easier access? >>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the >>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>> where we part company is on the issue of design. >>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because >> no >>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is >> one >>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that >> I >>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >> currency >>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong on this. >>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues >>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >> average >>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >> these >>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >> oppose >>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong. >>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >> that >>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>> differences into consideration. >>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best >> to >>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate >>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >> attitude >>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >>> Regards, >>> Marc >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>> Oregon mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>> world adapt to us? >>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>> heard. Thanks. >>> http://www.blindgal.com >>> -- >>> Alena Roberts >>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >> bile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >-- >Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 14:58:53 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:58:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Announcements Via NABSLink Message-ID: <6B073E5940A447B182CA69123669C0E1@Rufus> Hello students, I want to make you aware of the Announcements page on NABSLink.org. Before, during and after the national convention you may have activities you wish broadcasted to the rest of the student division. Now you can do so by sending your announcement to: announcements (at) NABSLink.org Replace (at) with @. To read about the format in which to submit your announcements, and to read future announcements, please visit: www.nabslink.org/announcements/ Regards, Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4171 (20090619) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 15:03:40 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:03:40 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <20090619104255.14007.58237@web1.serotek.com> References: <20090619104255.14007.58237@web1.serotek.com> Message-ID: Hi all, If the U.S. treasury decided on its own to make money identifiable by touch, I don't think anyone, NFB or not, would complain. I think what aroused the controversy is whether or not we should sue the treasury and call the current currency discriminatory, not whether or not we should have accessible money. This is an important distinction. Arielle On 6/19/09, Jedi wrote: > well, the NFB isn't against universal design as a principle. i think > it's a matter of supporting design that doesn't support the > perpetuation of stereotypes and the like. > > Respectfully, > Kedi > Original message: >> Jedi said, > >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >> you'll >> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a >> bad thing. > >> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases >> where >> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue >> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >> included products and services while I always said environments, products, >> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is >> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively >> opposes it. > >> Jedi said, > >> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited >> because >> we can't see. > >> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to >> the >> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part >> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in >> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. > >> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB >> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the >> environment, >> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and >> 2) >> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such >> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >> blindness. > >> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to >> oppose >> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes >> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design >> and >> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which >> I >> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that >> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. > >> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want >> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those >> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations >> are >> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, >> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you >> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in >> a >> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that >> make >> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in >> ways >> that would make them less necessary? > >> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal >> design >> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would >> respond >> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested >> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the >> social >> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been >> able >> to square these two things. > >> Looking forward to a response when you have time. > >> Marc > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of Jedi >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >> world adapt to us? > > >> Marc, > >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >> user-friendly is a bad thing. > >> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. > >> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >> can't see. > >> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. > >> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >> from the NFB. > >> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >> provide it, we'll help them do it. > >> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >> to doing things visually. > >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >> But, >>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >> fight >>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed >> in >>> order to facilitate easier access? > >>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think >>> the >>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>> where we part company is on the issue of design. > >>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because >> no >>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is >> one >>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that >> I >>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >> currency >>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong on this. > >>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen >>> is >>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB >>> argues >>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only >>> perpetuates >>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >> average >>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >> these >>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >> oppose >>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong. > >>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who >>> originally >>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when >>> they >>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with >>> this >>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >> that >>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>> differences into consideration. > >>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because >>> most >>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best >> to >>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > >>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack >>> adequate >>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >> attitude >>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and >>> if >>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > >>> Regards, > >>> Marc > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>> Oregon mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>> world adapt to us? > > >>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>> heard. Thanks. > >>> http://www.blindgal.com > >>> -- >>> Alena Roberts >>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >> bile.net > >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From mworkman at ualberta.ca Fri Jun 19 16:13:25 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:13:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, That's a very interesting point. I can certainly see how our scarce resources might be better spent on promoting excellent training, passing good legislation, and so on, rather than on adapting the environment. There's one point in response that I'd like to make. Perhaps you can address it if and when you elaborate further. It makes sense not to fight for environmental alterations because of the lack of resources, but it doesn't make sense to spend resources fighting against environmental changes. In this case, you would be spending those precious resources on opposing environmental changes that could benefit some. Maybe the NFB has never actively opposed environmental changes, I don't think this is the case, but it might be. Leaving the NFB aside, do you think it is ever appropriate to actively oppose environmental changes that other individuals and organizations are willing to spend time and energy fighting for? Thanks, Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? Hi all, I'm really tired and so will provide only a brief response here--will elaborate more later. I won't try to speak for the NFB, but will share my personal opinion and a new angle on this issue. I am personally in full support of universal design principles and practices. I don't think that having universally accessible systems in place perpetuates prejudice or misconceptions. However, I do think the critical question is "How much should we fight for environmental modifications?" rather than "Should the environment be changed?" In answering the former question I do think that fighting too much is what can hurt blind people. This is because we have limited energy, time and resources. Whenever we choose to fight more on one issue, I think time, money, and energy that could be spent on another issue is taken away. That kind of trade-off is really what we're facing here. Again, more on this later, but it gives you something else to think about. Arielle On 6/19/09, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: > Jedi said, > > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll > ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a > bad thing. > > That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where > I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue > that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous > instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only > included products and services while I always said environments, products, > and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is > about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of > products and services, it does not support universal design of the built > environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively > opposes it. > > Jedi said, > > The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes > from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because > we can't see. > > Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not > believe in universal design of the environment. What you call > over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that > statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the > negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I > suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part > in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from > misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in > terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't > necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. > > So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB > opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, > unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) > the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such > modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about > blindness. > > My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose > something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes > more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and > how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And > actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I > recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing > everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create > disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that > leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. > > I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want > to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those > issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact > supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible > signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations are > only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I > suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, > is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you > might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, > youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in a > manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the > training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make > these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways > that would make them less necessary? > > I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design > of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a > sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would respond > to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested > in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social > construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able > to square these two things. > > Looking forward to a response when you have time. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Jedi > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the > world adapt to us? > > > Marc, > > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that > you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services > user-friendly is a bad thing. > > I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible > currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, > I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. > > With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. > Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind > think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest > needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be > accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity > for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every > corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary > environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious > when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few > neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does > believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and > reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we > can't see. > > As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were > frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that > non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, > we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. > For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill > identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were > outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility > features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally > reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our > big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably > all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. > > In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all > the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what > access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible > based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals > chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. > That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that > accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real > need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument > from the NFB. > > there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. > We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue > except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to > provide it, we'll help them do it. > > As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's > more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I > just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my > responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when > sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or > just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used > to doing things visually. > > Respectfully Submitted > Original message: >> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. > But, >> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people > fight >> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed > in >> order to facilitate easier access? > >> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the >> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >> where we part company is on the issue of design. > >> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because > no >> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is > one >> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that > I >> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible > currency >> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if > I'm >> wrong on this. > >> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues >> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the > average >> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because > these >> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to > oppose >> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if > I'm >> wrong. > >> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that > that >> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >> differences into consideration. > >> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best > to >> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > >> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate >> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right > attitude >> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > >> Regards, > >> Marc > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of alena roberts >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >> Oregon mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >> world adapt to us? > > >> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >> heard. Thanks. > >> http://www.blindgal.com > >> -- >> Alena Roberts >> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 16:57:35 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:57:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: References: <20090619104255.14007.58237@web1.serotek.com> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906190957m5e6c22d6kdde4931b6f61fd95@mail.gmail.com> It is an important distinction, but I am of the opinion that the government doesn't do anything without being asked to. It is pretty clear to me that they had no intention of making the money accessible, and even after they got sued they still don't want to. Since this is the case, I think that the fight was worth it. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From mworkman at ualberta.ca Fri Jun 19 17:06:26 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:06:26 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm not sure, Steve, if the criticism of over-simplifying these issues includes this particular discussion, but I can say that I'm genuinely trying to gain a deeper understanding of the thinking on these matters. Perhaps there is no uniform NFB position, which is fine, perhaps the best we can do is put forward our thinking on the matter and see if we can get a better sense of why people hold the positions they do. I'd be happy with that. I probably don't have to say this, but I will. This is not an exercise in NFB bashing. If I were an american, I'd almost certainly be an active NFB member. I've even travelled from central Alberta to a national convention in Dallas and enjoyed it very much. I became active in the blindness movement in Canada after attending that convention, and I'm now on the National Board of one of the many advocacy organizations here in Canada. For me, this is primarily a philosophical discussion, much like if we were discussing equality or independence. People cannot possibly all agree on what exactly equality means, nor should we, but it's a discussion worth having all the same. I also would rather avoid getting bogged down in specific instances that carry a lot of emotional weight. The problem I find is that it is very difficult to discuss this stuff purely in the abstract. It is much easier with a concrete example, but unfortunately, using a concrete example usually requires simplifying the specific case to some extent. You say we do need to weigh the costs of altering the environment, which come in the form of perpetuation of negative stereotypes etc, against the benefits. I don't want to sound naive. I recognize the potential for these costs. I just can't let the possibility that someone will misinterpret what I'm doing stop me from doing something that I otherwise believe is right. I also think that steps can be taken to minimize or eliminate the negative possibilities. These steps come primarily in the form of education. I don't think we're going to come together on this one. It might be the first place where people simply disagree with one another. I'm not sure that believing in universal design as a principle that should govern the design of environments, products, and services necessarily requires us to stop examining costs and benefits. For me, the belief in universal design is like the belief in equality or autonomey. We all want equality for blind citizens. You say yourself that we all want equal access to education but that what constitutes equal access will differ in specific cases. I think universal design is similar. It is an over arching principle like equality or independence that we should always be striving for. We won't always agree on the best way to achieve it, but we should all work towards it in the best way we know how. I don't think the NFB, in general, believes in universal design in the way it believes in equality and independence, at least not when it comes to the built environment. The point about environmental changes not allowing us to fully develop our skills is an excellent one. At least, I can totally understand why someone would oppose changes on these grounds. My initial thoughts are to say that universal design and excellent blindness training are compatible, but I know this doesn't quite get at what your saying. I also want to say that if I didn't have to spend as much time developing my skills to deal with a badly designed environment, I might be able to spend my time on more interesting and important things like studying and spending time with friends and family. I could see you saying that I will learn the hard way that not all environments can be universally designed, so by making some environments easier to navigate, I'm setting myself up to fail in environments that are harder. I guess I would say that's how things are today, so nothing really would change except that the number of places where I need to bust out my top skills would be minimized. So we would still need great training centres, which is perfectly compatible with universal design, and there would still be places where you would need to employ higher-level skills. I admit that I'm not entirely satisfied with the response I've just offered. I need to think more about it. I know I'm not comfortable with the idea that we should leave the environment badly designed so that it forces us to acquire and maintain better skills. If you take it to the extreme, it actually raises the possibility that we should make the environment harder to navigate so that we are forced to acquire and maintain better blindness skills. I know that's not what you're saying, but it seems like a plausible implication of the argument. Finally, I will point out that universal design is compatible with specialized services. I believe that universal design is simply, to the greatest extent possible, designing things in ways that take into consideration differences in ability, skill, training, intelligence, etc. There are more detailed definitions, but I think that one will do. So whenever it is not possible to design something in a way that will meet everyone's unique needs, then special adaptation is perfectly acceptable. The goal is to minimize the need for special adaptation. There is no reason special adaptation cannot exist if necessary. Thanks for the interesting observations. Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Steve Jacobson Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:05 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? Over the years, this is a subject that has seemed to me to be often overlooked and oversimplified for the sake of making arguments. I don't claim to know all the thought processes behind all members of the NFB who feel that our positions are generally correct, but I do know my processes and at least my tendency to look at universal environmental design negatively is based only to a small degree upon the image that some aspects can perpetuate. Having said that, I believe that perpetuating a negative image needs to be considered and is not worth it if the gain isn't significant. The first thing that bothers me about taking positions based upon universal environmental design as portrayed here is that is allows us to stop considering what are the gains and the losses. To take a position simply because it is believed we have a right to it without considering the costs and the benefits won't serve us well in the long run. Second, we operate within a society that assumes by default that most activities cannot be performed unaided by blind persons. Certainly there are exceptions, we're all good at music, for example, but in general the assumption is that most things suggested are thought not to be something we can do. As a result, we often believe we can't do many things until we see others doing it or until we are pressed to push ourselves a little. Much of this "pushing" happens for many of us in adjustment to blindness training and through our exposure to other successful blind people. The result of some of the "pushing" that happens is that we find that many things we think are difficult to do turn out to be an everyday happening after a time. Some of what we must "push" to do is not truly due to it being difficult, but rather, a result of having to push against society's and our own beliefs of what we can do. If we are not careful of what we build into an environment, we will build into it those things that society believes we cannot do, minimizing our chances to develop our own skills. Beyond that, we are part of society, and as such, those of us who are lucky enough to be tax payers should be concerned as to whether the money spent is something that truly makes our lives better. What about the fact that some of us need certain help while others of us do not? This is again a problem faced by all society and it is not one with simple answers. To try to come up with a universal design in an environmental sense that meets everyone's needs is not necessarily the way to go. For some needs, a universal design will never be adequate and the needs will have to be met through specialized services. To think we will solve all problems through a universal approach will likely reduce the chances of some groups having special needs from getting the specialized services that they need. In some cases, creating a universal approach that tries to meet everybody's needs will either be too expensive or not serve anyone effectively while providing a false sense that everyone is truly better off. What I believe we in the NFB have tried to do is to try to look at many larger issues individually rather than taking the position that since sighted people have it, it must be provided to us. This philosophy may well be something we all agree applies to specific larger issues, but I do not personally believe it is a general rule to follow for every issue. For example, my guess is that we all would agree that blind people need to have as equal access as possible to education. However, that does not mean that every aspect of education will be handled in the same way. For example, most printed maps cannot simply be raised or made tactual as is. They are simply too complicated. We are going to need to get information filtered in some way to extract the educational value that we need. We need equal access, but equal access isn't always going to be the same access. There are other environmental issues that are similar where broader access doesn't imply that all access at all levels will be exactly what sighted persons get. We need to define what we need in some cases or figure out how we can adapt to make a solution most effective. We have to think ahead. Some on this list will learn the hard way that some of the services provided by colleges to provide equal access prevent one from developing skills necessary in many employment situations. The same can be true of other solutions to access that adapt the environment in some cases for short term or specific gains but don't take the longer view of how they might affect us. I think this is a very important and interesting topic and hope there is more careful discussion without getting too bogged down in specific issues that have emotional baggage that make them hard to discuss. Best regards, Steve Jacobson Original message: >> Jedi said, >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll >> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a >> bad thing. >> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where >> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue >> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >> included products and services while I always said environments, products, >> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is >> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively >> opposes it. >> Jedi said, >> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because >> we can't see. >> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the >> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part >> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in >> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. >> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB >> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, >> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) >> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such >> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >> blindness. >> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose >> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes >> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and >> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I >> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that >> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. >> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want >> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those >> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations are >> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, >> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you >> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in a >> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make >> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways >> that would make them less necessary? >> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design >> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would respond >> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested >> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social >> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able >> to square these two things. >> Looking forward to a response when you have time. >> Marc >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of Jedi >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >> world adapt to us? >> Marc, >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >> user-friendly is a bad thing. >> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. >> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >> can't see. >> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. >> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >> from the NFB. >> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >> provide it, we'll help them do it. >> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >> to doing things visually. >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >> But, >>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >> fight >>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed >> in >>> order to facilitate easier access? >>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the >>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>> where we part company is on the issue of design. >>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because >> no >>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is >> one >>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that >> I >>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >> currency >>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong on this. >>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues >>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >> average >>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >> these >>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >> oppose >>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong. >>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >> that >>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>> differences into consideration. >>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best >> to >>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate >>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >> attitude >>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >>> Regards, >>> Marc >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>> Oregon mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>> world adapt to us? >>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>> heard. Thanks. >>> http://www.blindgal.com >>> -- >>> Alena Roberts >>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >> bile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo bile.net >-- >Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi si.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 17:18:02 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 03:18:02 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] First solo trip under sleepshades In-Reply-To: <344CC40849424803AF2262FEA44A539E@sacomputer> References: <522471.94941.qm@web65714.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <344CC40849424803AF2262FEA44A539E@sacomputer> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Again, we've all had this kind of "rough sailing" during our first few trips out under sleepshades. When you thought you had walked several blocks and it turned out to be only two, you might have accidentally mistaken driveways for streets--a common mistake. I also suspect your instructor hasn't taught you how to distinguish between a driveway and street since she's only expecting you to learn set routes and not master skills that can be applied anywhere. Sometimes driveways and streets can be hard to distinguish, but here are a few common signs: 1. Most streets have a little ridge (or a crown) that you will feel when you start to cross. 2. The street will be rough asphalt, so if you slide your cane back and forth it will stick--driveways usually aren't that rough. 3. If you slide your cane from side to side before you cross the street/driveway, pay attention to the slope. A driveway will often slope up or down from side to side whereas a street will go up at the beginning, flatten out and then go back down when you approach the opposite side. 4. If you tap your cane, a driveway will usually echo more than a street due to parked cars and buildings nearby. You might not get the greatest echo feedback from an aluminum cane, though. 5. Stand and wait a minute before crossing. If any cars go by moving relatively fast, it's a street. Hope this is helpful as you continue on your adventures. I hope you will keep venturing out with the shades and keep telling us about what happens. It's great to see that you're determined to learn these things even if you don't have good training at the moment. And remember, there should be at least one person in your NFB affiliate who can teach you something, even if they're not an official O&M instructor. Arielle On 6/18/09, Sarah Alawami wrote: > Hey good job! I remember one time I was traveling in sleepshades and got so > turned around I ended up ont eh other side of town. I now know what > happened but at the time I was trying to keep my head. I did it and I didn't > lift my shades at all. I wanted to but I kept trucking. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jim Reed > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 10:07 PM > To: NABS mail list > Subject: [nabs-l] First solo trip under sleepshades > > Hey all, > > Well, my fear of going it alone undersleepshades lasted about 16 hours. > Since I was going it alone, and entirly responsible for my safety, I was a > bit jumpy and quick to take of the sleepshade at the first moment I felt > something might not be right. More often than not, when I took off the > blindfold, I was fairly well on target, and had I left the blindfold on, I > probably would have figured it out. I should trust my instinct and cane > more. I did however trip off a few curbs, wander out into the middle of a > residential street via an extrodinaraly wide driveway, and I also had a few > crooked street crossings. I am having a hard time determining where the > round corners square off. > > And of course I got lost. I have yet to not get lost when traveling under > sunglases or sleepshades, and it is starting to piss me off. I know I can do > this; its not that hard. I just can't figure out where or how I am getting > turned around. For example, I went to the gym under sleepshades, the route > requires me to go west several blocks, south a few blocks, and west a few > more blocks. The streets running east-west are lettered (A, B, C), and the > streets runing north south are numbered (8,8,10). There is no reason I > should be getting lost on such a simple route, and with such a simple street > name system. I walked for about 6-7 blocks and lifted my sleepshade to > verify where I was, and I was somehow only two blocks from my house. Very > frustrating indead. > > I had one kid ask me if I was wearing a sleepshade because I was pretending > to be blind for a day; I breifly explained what I was doing as I walked. Of > course some A-hole had to blast their horn for no reason as I was > approaching an intersection that I knew was there, that scared the crap out > of me. > > All and all, not to bad for my first time out alone. > > Jimj > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lindsay3.14 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 18:02:27 2009 From: lindsay3.14 at gmail.com (Lindsay Yazzolino) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:02:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: <788935130-1245161923-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-847756493-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <26d2dfeb0906051413sf8c4278kc9149c3ad0071608@mail.gmail.com> <788935130-1245161923-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-847756493-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: I only check my list mail on occasion and just saw this thread. I should be going as a mentor, as I did two years ago. I'm looking forward to seeing many of you there! lindsay On 6/16/09, cowboy0210 at gmail.com wrote: > I am going as a mentor. > > Kevin Ledford > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nathan Clark > > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:42:20 > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Youth Slam > > > I know of one other person that is going to the slam. Do you know of > anybody else? > > > > On 6/7/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >> I am going as a student again this summer. >> Nathan >> >> On 6/5/09, Bill wrote: >>> I will also be attending youth slam this summer as a mentor. I think if >>> you >>> haven't heard back from them yet, you might not have been selected. I >>> got >>> my paper work back in early may. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Lindsay Upschulte < >>> lindsayupschulte at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> During the last week of July, I will be going to the Youth Slam in >>> College Park, Maryland. I was wondering who else is going. If you >>> are, please let me know. It would be interesting to get to know some >>> of you. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> -Linz >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lindsay3.14%40gmail.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 18:46:08 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? Message-ID: <860608.92622.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I have not been following this thread, so sorry if my thoughts have been expressed by otheres elseware. Think about the silent /hybrid car issue and you have your answer. Clearly the blind community has already deemed it appropreate to make the world adapt to us. And if you look at the Kindle situation you can see that the blind community would rather force the world to adapt to us, rather than develop "work arounds" that allow us to adapt to the world. Now, understand that my history and knowledge of the blind is limited, but it seems as if we try to force the world to change first, and when, and only when that fails do we attempt to adaptt to the world. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Fri, 6/19/09, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: From: mworkman at ualberta.ca Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 10:13 AM Arielle, That's a very interesting point.  I can certainly see how our scarce resources might be better spent on promoting excellent training, passing good legislation, and so on, rather than on adapting the environment. There's one point in response that I'd like to make.  Perhaps you can address it if and when you elaborate further.  It makes sense not to fight for environmental alterations because of the lack of resources, but it doesn't make sense to spend resources fighting against environmental changes.  In this case, you would be spending those precious resources on opposing environmental changes that could benefit some.  Maybe the NFB has never actively opposed environmental changes, I don't think this is the case, but it might be.  Leaving the NFB aside, do you think it is ever appropriate to actively oppose environmental changes that other individuals and organizations are willing to spend time and energy fighting for? Thanks, Marc -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 11:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? Hi all, I'm really tired and so will provide only a brief  response here--will elaborate more later. I won't try to speak for the NFB, but will share my personal opinion and a new angle on this issue. I am personally in full support of universal design principles and practices. I don't think that having universally accessible systems in place perpetuates prejudice or misconceptions. However, I do think the critical question is "How much should we fight for environmental modifications?" rather than "Should the environment be changed?" In answering the former question I do think that fighting too much is what can hurt blind people. This is because we have  limited energy, time and resources. Whenever we choose to fight more on one issue, I think time, money, and energy that could be spent on another issue is taken  away. That kind of trade-off  is really what we're facing here. Again, more on this later, but it gives you something  else to think about. Arielle On 6/19/09, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: > Jedi said, > > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll > ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a > bad thing. > > That is true I think.  At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where > I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances.  Though, one could argue > that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous > instance.  Maybe I'll come back to that.  But I noticed that you only > included products and services while I always said environments, products, > and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is > about environments.  So while the NFB may support universal design of > products and services, it does not support universal design of the built > environment.  In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively > opposes it. > > Jedi said, > > The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes > from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because > we can't see. > > Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not > believe in universal design of the environment.  What you call > over-modification many would call universal design.  Also based on that > statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the > negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I > suggested was the reason in my earlier post.  I have to leave out the part > in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from > misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in > terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't > necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. > > So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB > opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, > unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) > the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such > modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about > blindness. > > My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose > something because others are likely to misunderstand it.  I think it makes > more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and > how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability.  And > actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I > recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing > everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create > disabilities.  It's a belief in the social construction of disability that > leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. > > I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want > to get into that debate.  And I don't think anything you've said on those > issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact > supports those claims.  In all three examples you mentioned (audible > signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity.  Adaptations are > only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I > suggested.  What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, > is what counts as necessary.  Something that may not be necessary for you > might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, > youth, supports, and the list goes on and on.  Why not construct things in a > manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the > training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make > these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways > that would make them less necessary? > > I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design > of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a > sign of blind people's weakness.  I also wonder about how you would respond > to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested > in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social > construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able > to square these two things. > > Looking forward to a response when you have time. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Jedi > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the > world adapt to us? > > > Marc, > > I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that > you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services > user-friendly is a bad thing. > > I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible > currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, > I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. > > With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. > Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind > think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest > needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be > accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity > for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every > corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary > environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious > when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few > neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does > believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and > reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we > can't see. > > As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were > frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that > non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, > we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. > For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill > identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were > outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility > features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally > reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our > big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably > all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. > > In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all > the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what > access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible > based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals > chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. > That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that > accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real > need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument > from the NFB. > > there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. > We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue > except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to > provide it, we'll help them do it. > > As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's > more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I > just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my > responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when > sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or > just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used > to doing things visually. > > Respectfully Submitted > Original message: >> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. > But, >> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people > fight >> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed > in >> order to facilitate easier access? > >> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy.  I think the >> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >> where we part company is on the issue of design. > >> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >> environment unless absolutely necessary.  So even the NFB says it is >> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because > no >> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >> cars.  In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment.  Audible signals is > one >> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another.  Let me say that > I >> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible > currency >> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary.  Correct me if > I'm >> wrong on this. > >> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment.  Who >> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >> that it hurts blind people.  If  I understand the position, the NFB argues >> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >> these misconceptions and myths.  Altering the environment makes the > average >> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc.  So because > these >> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to > oppose >> them.  This is my understanding of the opposition.  Again, correct me if > I'm >> wrong. > >> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up.  They >> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >> determine when the light has changed.  Well that was a serious error in >> design.  Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >> originally designed it.  A very similar argument can be made about nearly >> every environment, product, and service.  They are almost always designed >> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >> environment, use this product, and receive this service.  We know that > that >> is a bad assumption.  People come with an innumerable set of differing >> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >> differences into consideration. > >> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >> people interpret things wrongly.  Instead, we should push for universal >> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best > to >> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > >> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >> really good rehabilitation training services.  We completely lack adequate >> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right > attitude >> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind.  Nothing I say should be >> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills.  But as I >> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > >> Regards, > >> Marc > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of alena roberts >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >> Oregon mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >> world adapt to us? > > >> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >> heard. Thanks. > >> http://www.blindgal.com > >> -- >> Alena Roberts >> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 18:53:00 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:53:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906191153x1bb69aafwcec2e2899ca825f0@mail.gmail.com> I am really finding this discussion fascinating. I am glad to see that we're all comfortable offering our opinions, even if they aren't the same as someone elses. I want to second what Mark said. When I brought up this topic, I never intended for it to be a NFB or any other organization bashing. I am not a member of any organization and probably never will be. I also understand that getting into specific situations will only cause grief, but it seems like with this issue that being abstract really doesn't address the issue properly. For those of you that appose universal design in any way I would challenge you to think about what Mark and I have said. I don't want life handed to me on a silver platter, but I also don't want to spend all my energy figuring out how I'm going to accomplish something because it's completely inaccessible to me because of my disability. I can't count how many jobs I haven't gotten because of software issues. How many of here know that we could have any job we wanted if we had more usable vision? I know universal design isn't going to solve everything, but when companies want to offer their products, services, and environments to everyone they usually do a good job. I also think we all need to stop worrying about what sighted people are going to think. I've dealt with so much prejudice in my life, and I don't see that disappearing anytime soon. As a blind person all I can do is educate the people around me, and show them that their stereotypes are wrong. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 18:57:59 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:57:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums 2009 Message-ID: <32BC1DA532C940DE9FD207A323400FEB@Rufus> From: tabs_students at googlegroups.com [mailto:tabs_students at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of 2009 TABS President Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 1:56 AM To: The Texas Association of Blind Students Subject: [TABS] 2009 Southern Strums Brought to you By T.A.B.S For Immediate Release Contact Jose Martinez, Event Coordinator The Texas Association of Blind Students Phone: (210) 722-3597 E-Mail: jose.martinez07 at gmail.com Southern Strums Pulls into the Motor City San Antonio, Texas - For five years the Texas Association of Blind Students (TABS) has brought together some of the organization's finest musical talents in the convenience of one exceptional performance. In times past the benefit concert has evolved into a tradition in the general flow of the National Federation of the Blind's annual convention, and this year the event is raising the bar, venturing out into the general public as the main entertainment for one of Detroit's finest jazz restaurants. Join TABS, in collaboration with Seldom Blues, as they proudly present Southern Strums 2009. In the chaotic landscape that is the vibrant annual convention of the National Federation of the Blind one often wonders where the time will be found to do it all. Seasoned members and first time conventioneers are always astounded by the sheer number of new people there are to meet, but the benefit to this dynamic fundraiser is that these interactions can be struck up and rekindled in the midst of a relaxing atmosphere serenaded by some of the NFB's brightest performers. "Southern Strums," says TABS president, Juan del Rosario, "is as much about providing an evening of top notch entertainment as it is about raising funds for educational projects benefiting blind students across the state of Texas. We work around the year to ensure our fellow students have equal access to educational, employment and technological opportunities, and Southern Strums is a good means of conveying our message in a wholesome manner for everyone involved." All Federationists are welcomed to Seldom Blues, conveniently located in the Renaissance Center. The show kicks off at 6:00 PM and runs until the lights go out at 10:00 PM. All guests are kindly asked to provide a donation of five dollars to be a part of this special event to a TABS representative at the registration table next to the restaurant entrance. Come one, come all. This will be an elegant evening you will not want to miss. About Seldom Blues 400 Renaissance Ctr # 1 Detroit, MI 48243 WWW.SeldomBlues.com Seldom Blues is Detroit's premier jazz restaurant and supper club. Seldom Blues offers a unique downtown entertainment and dining experience. The menu breathes excellence bringing new and inspired tastes to continental cuisine. Located In the prestigious GM Renaissance Center, Seldom Blues presents a breathtaking view of the Detroit River and Canadian skyline. From a magnificent Sunday Brunch, to a signature lunch and dinner, we invite all generations to impress dates, business clients, and guests of Detroit. Jazz musicians amidst and delectable cuisine generates a remarkable and memorable dining experience. About the Texas Association of Blind Students TABS is a membership organization devoted to the advancement of blind students of all ages. Since its inception in 1990, TABS has worked on multiple levels to encourage the equal participation of blind individuals in all functions of society. Through instructional seminars, state and national conventions, legislative action, social events, and literature, we strive to promote independence and self- advocacy. The organization operates as a whole under the principle that inside and outside the classroom blind students are fully capable of leading normal productive lives. In order to reinforce this belief, it is necessary to view the change within blind students themselves. Thus, our ongoing objective is to work in conjunction with the National Association of Blind Students (NABS) and to a larger extent with the National Federation of the Blind (NFB) to build a sturdy foundation of useful skills, solid confidence, and raw determination so that we may in turn show the public that blindness is not the limitation it is thought to be. In essence, the primary goal of TABS is to follow its parent organizations in changing what it means to be blind. ### --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ The Texas Association of Blind Students Web Site: www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Toll Free: 877-887-5902 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Texas Association of Blind Students" group. To post to this group, send email to tabs_students at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tabs_students-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tabs_students -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4168 (20090618) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4172 (20090619) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 19:19:22 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] March for independence Message-ID: <998251.51141.qm@web65711.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I am not going to be participating in the national convention's March for Independence. I will not be participating because I don't feel comfortable doing so. I don't feel comfortable doing so because I feel I would simply become an oddity for the sighted to stare at, kinda like a display piece at a mueseam. And depending on who is doing the viewing, I (we) may just be considered a freak show. I was just wondering what others think about the March, and how others view their role within the March. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From trillian551 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 19:46:55 2009 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 21:46:55 +0200 Subject: [nabs-l] Youth Slam In-Reply-To: References: <26d2dfeb0906051413sf8c4278kc9149c3ad0071608@mail.gmail.com> <788935130-1245161923-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-847756493-@bxe1110.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: Hello, Like Lindsay, I should definitely check these more often. I will be attending as a mentor as well. Mary On 6/19/09, Lindsay Yazzolino wrote: > I only check my list mail on occasion and just saw this thread. I > should be going as a mentor, as I did two years ago. I'm looking > forward to seeing many of you there! > > lindsay > > On 6/16/09, cowboy0210 at gmail.com wrote: >> I am going as a mentor. >> >> Kevin Ledford >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Nathan Clark >> >> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 09:42:20 >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Youth Slam >> >> >> I know of one other person that is going to the slam. Do you know of >> anybody else? >> >> >> >> On 6/7/09, Nathan Clark wrote: >>> I am going as a student again this summer. >>> Nathan >>> >>> On 6/5/09, Bill wrote: >>>> I will also be attending youth slam this summer as a mentor. I think if >>>> you >>>> haven't heard back from them yet, you might not have been selected. I >>>> got >>>> my paper work back in early may. >>>> >>>> Bill >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Lindsay Upschulte < >>>> lindsayupschulte at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> During the last week of July, I will be going to the Youth Slam in >>>> College Park, Maryland. I was wondering who else is going. If you >>>> are, please let me know. It would be interesting to get to know some >>>> of you. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> -Linz >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cowboy0210%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lindsay3.14%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 In reaffirming the greatness of our nation, we understand that greatness is never a given. It must be earned. President Barack Obama From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 19:56:55 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:56:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [Nfb-or] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090619195655.GQ39342@yumi.bluecherry.net> Alena, You ask a thought-provoking question. In an idealized world, I think you're right that it really should be both. Unfortunately, we don't life in one. The view of the NFB is generally that the blind must adapt to the world, so long as the world isn't trying to prevent us from doing so. There's three good reasons for that: First, it is a realistic perspective. People with disabilities comprise about 10% of the population, and specific adaptations for specific disabilities affect even smaller groups. Some are happy to adapt, but others resent the implication that they should have to change anything to suit us. The opposing view may win lawsuits, but hearts and minds are not so easily won. Second, this view provides us with dignity, and more than a little pride. We know that equality means treatment that is no different from that of anyone else—no extra breaks, but also no extra barriers. While we recognize that sometimes we have to accept the former to offset the latter, our preference is not to. If we can maintain our dignity by working a little harder so that we need not accept something that may be regarded as a special favor, we will. I'll take up this point in particular in another message. Third, it gives us the right to a certain amount of respect. We do not always get it, but we demand a certain amount of common respect from sighted people. Adapting to the world makes our case for such a demand a little stronger. Because we adapt to the world, we compete with sighted people on their own terms. As such, we demonstrate that we deserve the same respect anyone else would be given. We are not second-class citizens. We are not defective people. We are not useless eaters. There are barriers in the world for blind people. Some are natural. Many are artificial. We know that we can rise to overcome these barriers with tenacity and creativity, and we do it often. We often ask for nothing more than the opportunity to do so, if we can find the means. Unfortunately, the real shape of prejudice and "ableism" is that when we start to overcome these barriers, there are some out there who try to create new barriers for us. This is usually when you see the NFB start to expect the world to change. It's one thing for a blind person to find himself or herself unable to overcome the barriers that exist. It's quite another for the blind person to be prevented from having an honest chance to try. I generally agree with this outlook because it gets results, and I am very much a results-oriented person. I'll come back to the second reason in a reply. Joseph On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 09:43:59AM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >heard. Thanks. > >http://www.blindgal.com > >-- >Alena Roberts >Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Jun 19 19:58:31 2009 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:58:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, First, I am sorry if my use of the word "simplistic" sounded as though I was being critical of your discussion as that was not my intent. Also, I did not see your comments as NFB bashing. I think we're after the same thing regarding a discussion of philosophy. By "simplistic", I meant to be saying that to view environmental modifications as a class makes the argument simple, one is for it or one is against it. Since the NFB had been against some environmental modifications that makes the NFB against universal design. This puts the burden on us to be for or against universal design rather than considering the many individual issues that make up the environment. while not a major thing, truncated domes have now been installed in my neighborhood where wheelchair ramped walks meet the street. However, the slant of the ramped walk is very significant so there just is no danger of not recognizing one is transitioning to the street. In addition, the city has to take some extra time when clearing the corner to make certain snow and ice do not smooth out the domes. Finally, since sidewalks are cleared of snow by the city, there will be the need to replace these domes due to dammage. One wonders what is the cost of maintaining truncated domes in locations where the slant is very detectable without them? But for me to be against truncated domes on the corners in my neighborhood puts me against universal design and federal regulations. It doesn't matter if they help anyone, the important thing is that they are perceived to help by government and by the public. I am not saying categorically that truncated domes are never helpful, only that they have become a symbol of universal design here and are therefore almost above debate or evaluation. They may not be the best example, but they constitute an example that may have less baggage than some. I do not believe that we in the NFB generally oppose something that is clearly right because of the image it creates. What I believe we have done is oppose accommodations where the gain was debatable. We have also opposed positions where the same thing could be accomplished with less of a downside using another approach. In my mind, these are both different than simply opposing what is right to preserve an image. As a general rule, applying the concept of universal design to software, appliances, and even the environment is a good overall principle, I think we actually agree on that. However, I don't believe we will be served well in the long run if we view universal design as an absolute, where all of the various parts have the same significance because the parts are viewed as a whole. We also can't give up the notion that if a problem we encounter can be solved by something we can do or by a device that we can operate rather than changing the environment, we need to consider that option and not just write it off because it isn't fair. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I don't think we will be well served in the long run if we stop viewing issues in the context of the cost to society versus the gain to us. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:06:26 -0600, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: >I'm not sure, Steve, if the criticism of over-simplifying these issues >includes this particular discussion, but I can say that I'm genuinely trying >to gain a deeper understanding of the thinking on these matters. Perhaps >there is no uniform NFB position, which is fine, perhaps the best we can do >is put forward our thinking on the matter and see if we can get a better >sense of why people hold the positions they do. I'd be happy with that. >I probably don't have to say this, but I will. This is not an exercise in >NFB bashing. If I were an american, I'd almost certainly be an active NFB >member. I've even travelled from central Alberta to a national convention >in Dallas and enjoyed it very much. I became active in the blindness >movement in Canada after attending that convention, and I'm now on the >National Board of one of the many advocacy organizations here in Canada. >For me, this is primarily a philosophical discussion, much like if we were >discussing equality or independence. People cannot possibly all agree on >what exactly equality means, nor should we, but it's a discussion worth >having all the same. >I also would rather avoid getting bogged down in specific instances that >carry a lot of emotional weight. The problem I find is that it is very >difficult to discuss this stuff purely in the abstract. It is much easier >with a concrete example, but unfortunately, using a concrete example usually >requires simplifying the specific case to some extent. >You say we do need to weigh the costs of altering the environment, which >come in the form of perpetuation of negative stereotypes etc, against the >benefits. I don't want to sound naive. I recognize the potential for these >costs. I just can't let the possibility that someone will misinterpret what >I'm doing stop me from doing something that I otherwise believe is right. I >also think that steps can be taken to minimize or eliminate the negative >possibilities. These steps come primarily in the form of education. I >don't think we're going to come together on this one. It might be the first >place where people simply disagree with one another. >I'm not sure that believing in universal design as a principle that should >govern the design of environments, products, and services necessarily >requires us to stop examining costs and benefits. For me, the belief in >universal design is like the belief in equality or autonomey. We all want >equality for blind citizens. You say yourself that we all want equal access >to education but that what constitutes equal access will differ in specific >cases. I think universal design is similar. It is an over arching >principle like equality or independence that we should always be striving >for. We won't always agree on the best way to achieve it, but we should all >work towards it in the best way we know how. I don't think the NFB, in >general, believes in universal design in the way it believes in equality and >independence, at least not when it comes to the built environment. >The point about environmental changes not allowing us to fully develop our >skills is an excellent one. At least, I can totally understand why someone >would oppose changes on these grounds. My initial thoughts are to say that >universal design and excellent blindness training are compatible, but I know >this doesn't quite get at what your saying. I also want to say that if I >didn't have to spend as much time developing my skills to deal with a badly >designed environment, I might be able to spend my time on more interesting >and important things like studying and spending time with friends and >family. I could see you saying that I will learn the hard way that not all >environments can be universally designed, so by making some environments >easier to navigate, I'm setting myself up to fail in environments that are >harder. I guess I would say that's how things are today, so nothing really >would change except that the number of places where I need to bust out my >top skills would be minimized. So we would still need great training >centres, which is perfectly compatible with universal design, and there >would still be places where you would need to employ higher-level skills. >I admit that I'm not entirely satisfied with the response I've just offered. >I need to think more about it. I know I'm not comfortable with the idea >that we should leave the environment badly designed so that it forces us to >acquire and maintain better skills. If you take it to the extreme, it >actually raises the possibility that we should make the environment harder >to navigate so that we are forced to acquire and maintain better blindness >skills. I know that's not what you're saying, but it seems like a plausible >implication of the argument. >Finally, I will point out that universal design is compatible with >specialized services. I believe that universal design is simply, to the >greatest extent possible, designing things in ways that take into >consideration differences in ability, skill, training, intelligence, etc. >There are more detailed definitions, but I think that one will do. So >whenever it is not possible to design something in a way that will meet >everyone's unique needs, then special adaptation is perfectly acceptable. >The goal is to minimize the need for special adaptation. There is no reason >special adaptation cannot exist if necessary. >Thanks for the interesting observations. >Marc >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >Behalf Of Steve Jacobson >Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:05 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >world adapt to us? >Over the years, this is a subject that has seemed to me to be often >overlooked and oversimplified for the sake of making arguments. I don't >claim to know all the >thought processes behind all members of the NFB who feel that our positions >are generally correct, but I do know my processes and at least my tendency >to look at >universal environmental design negatively is based only to a small degree >upon the image that some aspects can perpetuate. Having said that, I >believe that >perpetuating a negative image needs to be considered and is not worth it if >the gain isn't significant. >The first thing that bothers me about taking positions based upon universal >environmental design as portrayed here is that is allows us to stop >considering what are >the gains and the losses. To take a position simply because it is believed >we have a right to it without considering the costs and the benefits won't >serve us well in >the long run. >Second, we operate within a society that assumes by default that most >activities cannot be performed unaided by blind persons. Certainly there >are exceptions, >we're all good at music, for example, but in general the assumption is that >most things suggested are thought not to be something we can do. As a >result, we often >believe we can't do many things until we see others doing it or until we are >pressed to push ourselves a little. Much of this "pushing" happens for many >of us in >adjustment to blindness training and through our exposure to other >successful blind people. The result of some of the "pushing" that happens >is that we find that >many things we think are difficult to do turn out to be an everyday >happening after a time. Some of what we must "push" to do is not truly due >to it being difficult, but >rather, a result of having to push against society's and our own beliefs of >what we can do. If we are not careful of what we build into an environment, >we will build >into it those things that society believes we cannot do, minimizing our >chances to develop our own skills. Beyond that, we are part of society, and >as such, those of >us who are lucky enough to be tax payers should be concerned as to whether >the money spent is something that truly makes our lives better. >What about the fact that some of us need certain help while others of us do >not? This is again a problem faced by all society and it is not one with >simple answers. >To try to come up with a universal design in an environmental sense that >meets everyone's needs is not necessarily the way to go. For some needs, a >universal >design will never be adequate and the needs will have to be met through >specialized services. To think we will solve all problems through a >universal approach will >likely reduce the chances of some groups having special needs from getting >the specialized services that they need. In some cases, creating a >universal approach >that tries to meet everybody's needs will either be too expensive or not >serve anyone effectively while providing a false sense that everyone is >truly better off. >What I believe we in the NFB have tried to do is to try to look at many >larger issues individually rather than taking the position that since >sighted people have it, it >must be provided to us. This philosophy may well be something we all agree >applies to specific larger issues, but I do not personally believe it is a >general rule to >follow for every issue. For example, my guess is that we all would agree >that blind people need to have as equal access as possible to education. >However, that >does not mean that every aspect of education will be handled in the same >way. For example, most printed maps cannot simply be raised or made tactual >as is. They >are simply too complicated. We are going to need to get information >filtered in some way to extract the educational value that we need. We need >equal access, but >equal access isn't always going to be the same access. There are other >environmental issues that are similar where broader access doesn't imply >that all access at >all levels will be exactly what sighted persons get. We need to define what >we need in some cases or figure out how we can adapt to make a solution most >effective. We have to think ahead. Some on this list will learn the hard >way that some of the services provided by colleges to provide equal access >prevent one >from developing skills necessary in many employment situations. The same >can be true of other solutions to access that adapt the environment in some >cases for >short term or specific gains but don't take the longer view of how they >might affect us. >I think this is a very important and interesting topic and hope there is >more careful discussion without getting too bogged down in specific issues >that have emotional >baggage that make them hard to discuss. >Best regards, >Steve Jacobson > Original message: >>> Jedi said, >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >you'll >>> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a >>> bad thing. >>> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases >where >>> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue >>> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >>> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >>> included products and services while I always said environments, >products, >>> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, >is >>> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >>> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >>> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively >>> opposes it. >>> Jedi said, >>> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >>> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited >because >>> we can't see. >>> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >>> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >>> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >>> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to >the >>> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >>> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the >part >>> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >>> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in >>> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >>> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. >>> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB >>> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the >environment, >>> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and >2) >>> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such >>> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >>> blindness. >>> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to >oppose >>> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it >makes >>> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design >and >>> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >>> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which >I >>> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >>> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >>> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability >that >>> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. >>> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't >want >>> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those >>> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >>> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >>> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations >are >>> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >>> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as >well, >>> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you >>> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >>> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things >in a >>> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >>> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that >make >>> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in >ways >>> that would make them less necessary? >>> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal >design >>> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >>> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would >respond >>> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm >interested >>> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the >social >>> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been >able >>> to square these two things. >>> Looking forward to a response when you have time. >>> Marc >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of Jedi >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >>> world adapt to us? >>> Marc, >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >>> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >>> user-friendly is a bad thing. >>> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >>> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >>> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. >>> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >>> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >>> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >>> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >>> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >>> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >>> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >>> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >>> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >>> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >>> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >>> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >>> can't see. >>> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >>> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >>> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >>> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >>> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >>> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >>> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >>> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >>> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >>> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >>> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. >>> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >>> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >>> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >>> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >>> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >>> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >>> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >>> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >>> from the NFB. >>> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >>> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >>> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >>> provide it, we'll help them do it. >>> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >>> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >>> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >>> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >>> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >>> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >>> to doing things visually. >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> Original message: >>>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >>> But, >>>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >>> fight >>>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed >>> in >>>> order to facilitate easier access? >>>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think >the >>>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>>> where we part company is on the issue of design. >>>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because >>> no >>>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is >>> one >>>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say >that >>> I >>>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >>> currency >>>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >>> I'm >>>> wrong on this. >>>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen >is >>>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB >argues >>>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are >the >>>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the >argument >>>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only >perpetuates >>>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >>> average >>>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >>> these >>>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >>> oppose >>>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if >>> I'm >>>> wrong. >>>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable >itself, >>>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's >thinking? >>>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who >originally >>>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had >taken >>>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when >they >>>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about >nearly >>>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always >designed >>>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with >this >>>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >>> that >>>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>>> differences into consideration. >>>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because >most >>>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our >best >>> to >>>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >>>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack >adequate >>>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >>> attitude >>>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as >I >>>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and >if >>>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or >why >>>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >>>> Regards, >>>> Marc >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>>> Oregon mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>>> world adapt to us? >>>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>>> heard. Thanks. >>>> http://www.blindgal.com >>>> -- >>>> Alena Roberts >>>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>>> ca >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>> bile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >>> >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >bile.net >>-- >>Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi >si.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >ca >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 20:47:21 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:47:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [Nfb-or] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <20090619195655.GQ39342@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <20090619195655.GQ39342@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <20090619204720.GR39342@yumi.bluecherry.net> I said I'd come back to the second reason (skip next para if you just read the message before this): On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 12:56:55PM -0700, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Second, this view provides us with dignity, and more than a little > pride. We know that equality means treatment that is no different > from that of anyone else—no extra breaks, but also no extra > barriers. While we recognize that sometimes we have to accept the > former to offset the latter, our preference is not to. If we can > maintain our dignity by working a little harder so that we need not > accept something that may be regarded as a special favor, we will. > I'll take up this point in particular in another message. It is sometimes said that the NFB is critical of or tends to attack those blind people who we feel negatively impact our collective dignity. I'm not saying that doing so is good or right, nor even am I saying that it happens as often as some say. It does happen once in awhile, though, and it's not even really limited to Federationists all that much. If and when it does happen, though, this notion of collective dignity is at the heart of it. Unfortunately, I find that it leads to a sort of stratification amongst the blind—again, not limited to the Federation by any stretch of the imagination. What I've observed is that we tend to look down upon those who have significantly less independence than we have, because we wish not to be associated with their more limited ability and treated accordingly. We also look down upon those demonstrating significantly greater independence because they make us feel somehow less capable by comparison. This is dangerous for us as a collective population. I think it has a lot to do with why there is a deaf culture, but no blind culture. We are divided because we constantly compare ourselves to others, and we do it unfavorably most of the time. A sighted friend observed to me one day that it seemed to her that blind people all hated each other, based on the fact that she knows nearly half a dozen of us, and none of us seemed to want anything to do with each other except at a distance over the Internet. Her conclusion is wrong, but it was her observation that caused me to take a closer look at this problem. I've said this extends far beyond the NFB, but I think the NFB has been shortsighted as an organization in addressing the problem. I hate to end this message without proposing a solution to the problem I see, but I don't wish to hijack Alena's thread any more than I already have. I do have some thoughts on the matter, but I'll start my own thread to address them. Joseph From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Jun 19 20:59:55 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:59:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? Message-ID: <20090619205955.24825.55723@web3.serotek.com> Marc, The number one philosophical principle that guides my opinions on this issue is that the environment, with a few exceptions, isn't poorly designed for blind people in the first place. Respectfully submitted Original message: > I'm not sure, Steve, if the criticism of over-simplifying these issues > includes this particular discussion, but I can say that I'm genuinely trying > to gain a deeper understanding of the thinking on these matters. Perhaps > there is no uniform NFB position, which is fine, perhaps the best we can do > is put forward our thinking on the matter and see if we can get a better > sense of why people hold the positions they do. I'd be happy with that. > I probably don't have to say this, but I will. This is not an exercise in > NFB bashing. If I were an american, I'd almost certainly be an active NFB > member. I've even travelled from central Alberta to a national convention > in Dallas and enjoyed it very much. I became active in the blindness > movement in Canada after attending that convention, and I'm now on the > National Board of one of the many advocacy organizations here in Canada. > For me, this is primarily a philosophical discussion, much like if we were > discussing equality or independence. People cannot possibly all agree on > what exactly equality means, nor should we, but it's a discussion worth > having all the same. > I also would rather avoid getting bogged down in specific instances that > carry a lot of emotional weight. The problem I find is that it is very > difficult to discuss this stuff purely in the abstract. It is much easier > with a concrete example, but unfortunately, using a concrete example usually > requires simplifying the specific case to some extent. > You say we do need to weigh the costs of altering the environment, which > come in the form of perpetuation of negative stereotypes etc, against the > benefits. I don't want to sound naive. I recognize the potential for these > costs. I just can't let the possibility that someone will misinterpret what > I'm doing stop me from doing something that I otherwise believe is right. I > also think that steps can be taken to minimize or eliminate the negative > possibilities. These steps come primarily in the form of education. I > don't think we're going to come together on this one. It might be the first > place where people simply disagree with one another. > I'm not sure that believing in universal design as a principle that should > govern the design of environments, products, and services necessarily > requires us to stop examining costs and benefits. For me, the belief in > universal design is like the belief in equality or autonomey. We all want > equality for blind citizens. You say yourself that we all want equal access > to education but that what constitutes equal access will differ in specific > cases. I think universal design is similar. It is an over arching > principle like equality or independence that we should always be striving > for. We won't always agree on the best way to achieve it, but we should all > work towards it in the best way we know how. I don't think the NFB, in > general, believes in universal design in the way it believes in equality and > independence, at least not when it comes to the built environment. > The point about environmental changes not allowing us to fully develop our > skills is an excellent one. At least, I can totally understand why someone > would oppose changes on these grounds. My initial thoughts are to say that > universal design and excellent blindness training are compatible, but I know > this doesn't quite get at what your saying. I also want to say that if I > didn't have to spend as much time developing my skills to deal with a badly > designed environment, I might be able to spend my time on more interesting > and important things like studying and spending time with friends and > family. I could see you saying that I will learn the hard way that not all > environments can be universally designed, so by making some environments > easier to navigate, I'm setting myself up to fail in environments that are > harder. I guess I would say that's how things are today, so nothing really > would change except that the number of places where I need to bust out my > top skills would be minimized. So we would still need great training > centres, which is perfectly compatible with universal design, and there > would still be places where you would need to employ higher-level skills. > I admit that I'm not entirely satisfied with the response I've just offered. > I need to think more about it. I know I'm not comfortable with the idea > that we should leave the environment badly designed so that it forces us to > acquire and maintain better skills. If you take it to the extreme, it > actually raises the possibility that we should make the environment harder > to navigate so that we are forced to acquire and maintain better blindness > skills. I know that's not what you're saying, but it seems like a plausible > implication of the argument. > Finally, I will point out that universal design is compatible with > specialized services. I believe that universal design is simply, to the > greatest extent possible, designing things in ways that take into > consideration differences in ability, skill, training, intelligence, etc. > There are more detailed definitions, but I think that one will do. So > whenever it is not possible to design something in a way that will meet > everyone's unique needs, then special adaptation is perfectly acceptable. > The goal is to minimize the need for special adaptation. There is no reason > special adaptation cannot exist if necessary. > Thanks for the interesting observations. > Marc > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Steve Jacobson > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the > world adapt to us? > Over the years, this is a subject that has seemed to me to be often > overlooked and oversimplified for the sake of making arguments. I don't > claim to know all the > thought processes behind all members of the NFB who feel that our positions > are generally correct, but I do know my processes and at least my tendency > to look at > universal environmental design negatively is based only to a small degree > upon the image that some aspects can perpetuate. Having said that, I > believe that > perpetuating a negative image needs to be considered and is not worth it if > the gain isn't significant. > The first thing that bothers me about taking positions based upon universal > environmental design as portrayed here is that is allows us to stop > considering what are > the gains and the losses. To take a position simply because it is believed > we have a right to it without considering the costs and the benefits won't > serve us well in > the long run. > Second, we operate within a society that assumes by default that most > activities cannot be performed unaided by blind persons. Certainly there > are exceptions, > we're all good at music, for example, but in general the assumption is that > most things suggested are thought not to be something we can do. As a > result, we often > believe we can't do many things until we see others doing it or until we are > pressed to push ourselves a little. Much of this "pushing" happens for many > of us in > adjustment to blindness training and through our exposure to other > successful blind people. The result of some of the "pushing" that happens > is that we find that > many things we think are difficult to do turn out to be an everyday > happening after a time. Some of what we must "push" to do is not truly due > to it being difficult, but > rather, a result of having to push against society's and our own beliefs of > what we can do. If we are not careful of what we build into an environment, > we will build > into it those things that society believes we cannot do, minimizing our > chances to develop our own skills. Beyond that, we are part of society, and > as such, those of > us who are lucky enough to be tax payers should be concerned as to whether > the money spent is something that truly makes our lives better. > What about the fact that some of us need certain help while others of us do > not? This is again a problem faced by all society and it is not one with > simple answers. > To try to come up with a universal design in an environmental sense that > meets everyone's needs is not necessarily the way to go. For some needs, a > universal > design will never be adequate and the needs will have to be met through > specialized services. To think we will solve all problems through a > universal approach will > likely reduce the chances of some groups having special needs from getting > the specialized services that they need. In some cases, creating a > universal approach > that tries to meet everybody's needs will either be too expensive or not > serve anyone effectively while providing a false sense that everyone is > truly better off. > What I believe we in the NFB have tried to do is to try to look at many > larger issues individually rather than taking the position that since > sighted people have it, it > must be provided to us. This philosophy may well be something we all agree > applies to specific larger issues, but I do not personally believe it is a > general rule to > follow for every issue. For example, my guess is that we all would agree > that blind people need to have as equal access as possible to education. > However, that > does not mean that every aspect of education will be handled in the same > way. For example, most printed maps cannot simply be raised or made tactual > as is. They > are simply too complicated. We are going to need to get information > filtered in some way to extract the educational value that we need. We need > equal access, but > equal access isn't always going to be the same access. There are other > environmental issues that are similar where broader access doesn't imply > that all access at > all levels will be exactly what sighted persons get. We need to define what > we need in some cases or figure out how we can adapt to make a solution most > effective. We have to think ahead. Some on this list will learn the hard > way that some of the services provided by colleges to provide equal access > prevent one > from developing skills necessary in many employment situations. The same > can be true of other solutions to access that adapt the environment in some > cases for > short term or specific gains but don't take the longer view of how they > might affect us. > I think this is a very important and interesting topic and hope there is > more careful discussion without getting too bogged down in specific issues > that have emotional > baggage that make them hard to discuss. > Best regards, > Steve Jacobson > Original message: >>> Jedi said, >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that > you'll >>> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a >>> bad thing. >>> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases > where >>> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue >>> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >>> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >>> included products and services while I always said environments, > products, >>> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, > is >>> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >>> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >>> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively >>> opposes it. >>> Jedi said, >>> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >>> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited > because >>> we can't see. >>> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >>> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >>> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >>> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to > the >>> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >>> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the > part >>> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >>> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in >>> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >>> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. >>> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB >>> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the > environment, >>> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and > 2) >>> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such >>> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >>> blindness. >>> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to > oppose >>> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it > makes >>> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design > and >>> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >>> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which > I >>> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >>> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >>> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability > that >>> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. >>> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't > want >>> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those >>> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >>> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >>> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations > are >>> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >>> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as > well, >>> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you >>> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >>> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things > in a >>> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >>> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that > make >>> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in > ways >>> that would make them less necessary? >>> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal > design >>> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >>> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would > respond >>> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm > interested >>> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the > social >>> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been > able >>> to square these two things. >>> Looking forward to a response when you have time. >>> Marc >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of Jedi >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >>> world adapt to us? >>> Marc, >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >>> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >>> user-friendly is a bad thing. >>> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >>> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >>> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. >>> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >>> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >>> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >>> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >>> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >>> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >>> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >>> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >>> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >>> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >>> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >>> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >>> can't see. >>> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >>> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >>> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >>> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >>> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >>> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >>> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >>> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >>> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >>> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >>> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. >>> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >>> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >>> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >>> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >>> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >>> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >>> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >>> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >>> from the NFB. >>> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >>> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >>> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >>> provide it, we'll help them do it. >>> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >>> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >>> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >>> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >>> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >>> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >>> to doing things visually. >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> Original message: >>>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >>> But, >>>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >>> fight >>>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed >>> in >>>> order to facilitate easier access? >>>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think > the >>>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>>> where we part company is on the issue of design. >>>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because >>> no >>>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is >>> one >>>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say > that >>> I >>>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >>> currency >>>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >>> I'm >>>> wrong on this. >>>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen > is >>>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB > argues >>>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are > the >>>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the > argument >>>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only > perpetuates >>>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >>> average >>>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >>> these >>>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >>> oppose >>>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if >>> I'm >>>> wrong. >>>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable > itself, >>>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's > thinking? >>>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who > originally >>>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had > taken >>>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when > they >>>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about > nearly >>>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always > designed >>>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with > this >>>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >>> that >>>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>>> differences into consideration. >>>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because > most >>>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our > best >>> to >>>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >>>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack > adequate >>>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >>> attitude >>>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as > I >>>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and > if >>>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or > why >>>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >>>> Regards, >>>> Marc >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>>> Oregon mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>>> world adapt to us? >>>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>>> heard. Thanks. >>>> http://www.blindgal.com >>>> -- >>>> Alena Roberts >>>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>>> ca >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>> bile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi > si.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 21:32:12 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance, prejudice, Sighted domination and the sighted preception of sighted-blind interactions Message-ID: <611028.8747.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, Have you all ever stopped to think about how the sighted view their interactions with blind people? Let me breifly tell you a story. Yesterday, I went out for a cane travel lesson undersleepshades with an older man from the local chapter. First, we walked from his house to his church and back. Then we walked from his house to the grocery store. Along the way he was pointing out different landmarks and things he uses in cane travel. We got to the store, it was warm, we had been walking for a while, and he was doing me a fovor, so I offered to by him a soda. He agreed. We were walking into the store, I offered an elbow, and he refused. Based on his refusal, I assumed he was competent to get himself around the store, so, much like I would do with as sighted companion, I took off and made a beeline for the soda coolers. I walk for about 10 seconds, then turn around, and the guy is standing in nearly the same spot as I left him, baby-steping his way towards my general direction. Seeing this, I purposely started taopping my cane so as to give him an auditory cue to follow. This went on for the entire time we were in the store; tap and wait, tap and wait. The other option, which I did as well, was to walk beside him. except he was walking so slow that I probably could have crawled faster than he was walking. So, in order to give him his independence, or allow him to keep his pride, self-worth, or whatever, I was forced to walk slower tham slow, and I was forced to constaintly tap my cane. I asked if it was helpful for me to tap the cane, and his answer was "couldn't hurt". What the hell does that mean? Give me an answer; yes it helps, or no it doesn't. But the point of this story is that by this man refusing to take an elbow, he wasn't demonstrating his independnece, what he was demonstrating is that he is not just "one of the guys" -- what he was demonstrating was that he would, more than likely, always slow me down, regardless of where we were going or what we were doing. Returning to our conversation yesterday about proving onesself, going into the grocery store was one of those times where this man had a chance to "prove himself", and he failed miserably. Mind you, he did not "fail" because he refused to take an elbow. He "failed" because he slowed me down (considerably), and he "failed" because he made me feel like a babysiter. It was quite uncomfortable for me to walk as slowly as I had to, and it was even more uncomfortable for me to do the "wait and tap" method. There were two ways this man could have "passed" this test; First, he could have refused an elbow and been able to keep up, or he could have taken an elbow and been able to keep up. Sure, I'd rather him refuse an elbow and keep up on his own, but it makes no differenc eto me if I have to help a friend out by providing an elbow. So, the next time you feel the need to "prove" you are independent, stop and think about how you are affecting others. Because if your "independence" is actually negitivly affecting others, do you really think you are improving how they precieve you as an individual, or how how they precieve your skill set as it pretains to independence? Thoughts? Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From marrie12 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 21:46:20 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:46:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question In-Reply-To: <01e101c9f051$e0571370$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <186864.88638.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><918D43ADCD00440A82327153F25ECE47@sacomputer> <01e101c9f051$e0571370$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Yep. I have my extra pair laying around the house someware. And I stil.l use them when I have a really bad headache. After all, I can still get my stuff done. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 1:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hello Sarah and listers, They can also be ordered from the Independence Market. If you're coming to convention be sure to pick up a pair from the NFB Store. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey! I like the sleepshades! Theya re to me very comfertable and they help when you are chopping onions. Wallmart might have something but they itch like crazy. You could also maybe where some dark glasses or something like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:33 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey all, Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same function as a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's wearing sleep shades? (No offense meant to anyone) Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba l.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From chriswright11 at verizon.net Fri Jun 19 21:35:57 2009 From: chriswright11 at verizon.net (Christopher Wright) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:35:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <001201c9f125$f04e0a20$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Hi Serena, Accessible Pedestrian signals come in handy when, for example, I'm lined up and ready to cross a street but there's no parallel traffic to help me decide when to step off the curb. From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 19 22:20:07 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Message-ID: <517575.16305.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I called my eye doctor and asked about those foam lined sunglasses, and she said the cheapest pair was like $130. Thats an awful lot to spend on a pair of glasses that will effectivly be ruined by painting the lens black. I hope the NFB store at convention has them cheaper than that. Does it really matter that all light, and all vision be blocked? For exampe, I could buy the cheapest pair of sunglasses at the gas station and paint the lenses black,  and as long as the lenses are big enough to block my visual field, I don't see why they wouldnt work. "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Fri, 6/19/09, Sarah Alawami wrote: From: Sarah Alawami Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:46 PM Yep. I have my extra  pair laying  around the house someware. And I stil.l use them when I have a really bad headache. After all, I can still get my stuff done. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 1:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hello Sarah and listers, They can also be ordered from the Independence Market. If you're coming to convention be sure to pick up a pair from the NFB Store. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey! I like the sleepshades!  Theya re to me very comfertable and they help when you are chopping onions. Wallmart might have something but they itch like crazy. You could also maybe where some dark glasses or something like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:33 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey all, Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same function as a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's wearing sleep shades? (No offense meant to anyone) Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba l.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From nijat1989 at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 22:42:05 2009 From: nijat1989 at gmail.com (Nijat Worley) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:42:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The procedure for getting a book recorded at RFBD Message-ID: <35F6AA359FB94F18830FF384E6FDF0AF@Nijatash> Greetings NABS members, I was wondering if anybody knew the procedure for sending a book to be recorded at RFB and D. I have a few books to send in to be put into accessible format. Do we just send the book to them and they will record it? Do wee send the books to the same address as the all the books? How long does it take them to record a book? How do they deal with books that have lot of foreign words in it? Thank you. Nijat From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 20 00:07:03 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Custodializm and sighted=blind interactions Message-ID: <224148.53973.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, In an earlier post, I told a breif story about going into a grocery store with a blind guy, and I expressed my perceptions of that situation. Well, I wrote the man who was the subject of that post, and I asked him some questions. I don't think I posed the same questions to you all as I just posed to him, so I have copied and pasted the relevant sections of my letter, and I would like to hear your opinions and answers to the questions I posed. Thanks, Jim Here is the letter _______________________________________________________________- "... Yesterday, when we went into the grocery store, I offered you an elbow which you refused. No problem. Since you refused my elbow, I assumed you knew the store and/or could keep up with me, so, without giving you much of a second thought, I took off looking for one soda cooler or another. However, several times I looked back, and you were standing in almost the same place I left you, or you were very slowly walking towards my general direction. I tried walking slower, but within two steps I was already way in front of you. Then, I would stop (or walk) and purposefully tap my cane to give you a noise to follow, but the tapping did not really seem to make a difference (aat least not in terms of your speed). In general, I felt kind of uncomfortable being in the store with you. I felt uncomfortable walking so slowly next to a grown man who seems in good health, and I felt even more uncomfortable with my "wait and tap" method. My discomfort stems from not having had to deal with these situations (interacting with other blind people) before, and not really knowing how, or what to do, or knowing what is appropriate and/or expected. My instinct is to treat you (or any other blind person) as I would treat any of my sighted friends. That means, in the grocery store for example, that I go from Point A to Point B,  get my stuff, and get out as quickly as possible;  and I expect that my companion will keep up without me slowing down. However, if I would have used that approach with you yesterday, I probably would have been in the store, found and bought our sodas, and been out the store, and you may have still been standing somewhere near where I left you. If that had been the case, I would have felt like a real jerk for having ditched my blind companion because he could not keep up.  On the other hand, the other approach, the custodial approach, is equally uncomfortable to me, and that is the approach I felt like I was using with you (walking real slow and needlessly tapping my cane). I know there has to be a happy medium between my "sink or swim" (keep up or get left behind) approach, and my custodial (walk real slow and tap) approach. For as much as blind people don't want to be custodialized, I don't want to be a custodian. But at the same time, if blind people want to be considered and treated as equals, then I shouldn't feel like I have to wait for them, or accommodate them. Are all accommodations custodialism and a threat to blind independence? Where and how is that line drawn? To what extent is it the responsibility of the blind person to tell hs/her companion what they need and want? What is the sighted person to do if the blind person provides no such guidance? Is it the responsibility of the sighted to, and how should a sighted persons determine and respond to  the needs and wants of a blind companion? In a situation such as ours in the grocery store, the options (as I see them) were for me to slow down, you to speed up, or for you to take my elbow. Why should I slow down? Why should you speed up or take an elbow? How are our differing needs and/or wants reconsiled without you feeling custodialized, and without me feeling like a custodian? Thanks, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts, Jim" "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 00:40:06 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:40:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question In-Reply-To: <517575.16305.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <517575.16305.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53654B687D2F485482477C5DFFAE6BAC@sacomputer> The sleepshaids are 7 dollars at the nfb store. I think. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 3:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question I called my eye doctor and asked about those foam lined sunglasses, and she said the cheapest pair was like $130. Thats an awful lot to spend on a pair of glasses that will effectivly be ruined by painting the lens black. I hope the NFB store at convention has them cheaper than that. Does it really matter that all light, and all vision be blocked? For exampe, I could buy the cheapest pair of sunglasses at the gas station and paint the lenses black,  and as long as the lenses are big enough to block my visual field, I don't see why they wouldnt work. "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Fri, 6/19/09, Sarah Alawami wrote: From: Sarah Alawami Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 3:46 PM Yep. I have my extra  pair laying  around the house someware. And I stil.l use them when I have a really bad headache. After all, I can still get my stuff done. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 1:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hello Sarah and listers, They can also be ordered from the Independence Market. If you're coming to convention be sure to pick up a pair from the NFB Store. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey! I like the sleepshades!  Theya re to me very comfertable and they help when you are chopping onions. Wallmart might have something but they itch like crazy. You could also maybe where some dark glasses or something like that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:33 AM To: MAB List; NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] Sleep shade question Hey all, Is there anything out there that is designed to serve the same function as a sleep shade without making you look like the idiot who's wearing sleep shades? (No offense meant to anyone) Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba l.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 00:40:06 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:40:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The procedure for getting a book recorded at RFBD In-Reply-To: <35F6AA359FB94F18830FF384E6FDF0AF@Nijatash> References: <35F6AA359FB94F18830FF384E6FDF0AF@Nijatash> Message-ID: I only remember that you need 2 coppies of the book. It can take a very long time to record the books if they cannot find a reader to do it. I don'[t know where to send the books though. Try going to www.rfbd.org and see. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nijat Worley Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 3:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] The procedure for getting a book recorded at RFBD Greetings NABS members, I was wondering if anybody knew the procedure for sending a book to be recorded at RFB and D. I have a few books to send in to be put into accessible format. Do we just send the book to them and they will record it? Do wee send the books to the same address as the all the books? How long does it take them to record a book? How do they deal with books that have lot of foreign words in it? Thank you. Nijat _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 00:57:04 2009 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 20:57:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Custodializm and sighted=blind interactions In-Reply-To: <224148.53973.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <224148.53973.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63af025c0906191757i645df660k2bfe39b0d87d56ab@mail.gmail.com> This is very interesting. I have to say, I've never really had a situation like this. I guess I haven't really traveled with other blind people enough. When ever I'm at the Jernigan Institute, everyone around me either seems to know where they're going or already have a friend or room mate's arm. I had a blind friend when I was in elementary school, and when we would go somewhere she would always more than willingly take my arm, but her blindness skills were greatly lacking and she had absolutely no desire to improve any of them (her parents never believed she could be independent, and it seems as a result neither did she). But I did start to feel like a custodian, especially as we approached those fiercely independent young teen years. It actually began to have some strain on our friendship. Now I'm living with my boyfriend who is totally blind, and it's very different. Now we do walk sighted-guide from time to time, but it doesn't feel like custodializing at all. We're intimately involved with one another and have been in a very close relationship for a few years now. People would expect to see us more or less attached at the hip when we walk together. But when we walk like this, even when I'm guiding him, we do both still actively use our canes, if that matters. I just feel like I'm walking with him, not necessarily "looking after" him in any way. I think it's also important to note, however, that my boyfriend is *very* independent. He follows me with ease and often even takes lead. He's confident with his cane travel skills and at times I would venture to say his overall O&M is better than mine regardless of how much sight either of us has. I think it's the responsibility of the blind person first and foremost to know what they are capable of. If you know you aren't confident enough with your cane to take more than baby steps (or move at all in some cases), and you therefore wont be able to simply follow your friend, then it is your responsibility to either ask to take their arm or simply say "Go get what you need. I'll wait here. No worries." If you don't want to be guided and you don't want to wait, consider that all the more motivation to improve on mobility. Ultimately, if you have a preference, or a specific thing that will work for you, and you know what it is, it's your job to ask for it. It isn't your sighted companion's responsability to try and guess at what it might be and put themselves out in the process. The sighted person can certainly ask "What can we do to make this work better for both of us?", but that communication has to be there. On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > In an earlier post, I told a breif story about going into a grocery store > with a blind guy, and I expressed my perceptions of that situation. Well, I > wrote the man who was the subject of that post, and I asked him some > questions. I don't think I posed the same questions to you all as I just > posed to him, so I have copied and pasted the relevant sections of my > letter, and I would like to hear your opinions and answers to the questions > I posed. > > Thanks, > > Jim > Here is the letter > _______________________________________________________________- > > "... > Yesterday, when we went into the > grocery store, I offered you an elbow which you refused. No problem. > Since you refused my elbow, I assumed you knew the store and/or could > keep up with me, so, without giving you much of a second thought, I > took off looking for one soda cooler or another. However, several times > I looked back, and you were standing in almost the same place I left > you, or you were very slowly walking towards my general direction. I > tried walking slower, but within two steps I was already way in front > of you. Then, I would stop (or walk) and purposefully tap my cane to > give you a noise to follow, but the tapping did not really seem to make > a difference (aat least not in terms of your speed). > > > In general, I felt kind of uncomfortable being in the store with you. I > felt uncomfortable walking so slowly next to a grown man who seems in > good health, and I felt even more uncomfortable with my "wait and tap" > method. My discomfort stems from not having had to deal with these > situations (interacting with other blind people) before, and not really > knowing how, or what to do, or knowing what is appropriate and/or > expected. > > My instinct is to treat you (or any other blind person) > as I would treat any of my sighted friends. That means, in the grocery > store for example, that I go from Point A to Point B, get my stuff, > and get out as quickly as possible; and I expect that my companion > will keep up without me slowing down. However, if I would have used > that approach with you yesterday, I probably would have been in the > store, found and bought our sodas, and been out the store, and you may > have still been standing somewhere near where I left you. If that had > been the case, I would have felt like a real jerk for having ditched my > blind companion because he could not keep up. On the other hand, the > other approach, the custodial approach, is equally uncomfortable to me, > and that is the approach I felt like I was using with you (walking real > slow and needlessly tapping my cane). > > I > know there has to be a happy medium between my "sink or swim" (keep up > or get left behind) approach, and my custodial (walk real slow and tap) > approach. For as much as blind people don't want to be custodialized, I > don't want to be a custodian. But at the same time, if blind people > want to be considered and treated as equals, then I shouldn't feel like > I have to wait for them, or accommodate them. > > Are > all accommodations custodialism and a threat to blind independence? > Where and how is that line drawn? To what extent is it the > responsibility of the blind person to tell hs/her companion what they > need and want? What is the sighted person to do if the blind person > provides no such guidance? Is it the responsibility of the sighted to, and > how should a sighted persons determine and respond to the needs and wants > of a blind companion? > > In > a situation such as ours in the grocery store, the options (as I see > them) were for me to slow down, you to speed up, or for you to take my > elbow. Why should I slow down? Why should you speed up or take an > elbow? How are our differing needs and/or wants reconsiled without you > feeling custodialized, and without me feeling like a custodian? > > Thanks, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts, > Jim" > > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 02:19:14 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 19:19:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <001201c9f125$f04e0a20$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> <001201c9f125$f04e0a20$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906191919g5ed2d5a5ydbc2fd0b84153afc@mail.gmail.com> Chris, You bring up a prime example, thank you. I have stood at lights before waiting to make sure it was safe to cross simply because there was no parallel traffic for me to listen to. The audible signal solves that exact problem. I still need to listen to my traffic, but at least then I know that my light is green. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 03:51:05 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:51:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Southern Strums 2009, Updated Message-ID: From: tabs_students at googlegroups.com [mailto:tabs_students at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jose Martinez Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 3:58 PM To: Members at nfb-texas.org; tabs_students at googlegroups.com Subject: [TABS] updated Southern Strums Press Release Hope to see all you Texans out supporting this years Southern Strums, it is shaping up to be a great show! Monday July 6, six to ten pm. ... For Immediate Release Contact Jose Martinez, Event Coordinator The Texas Association of Blind Students Phone: (210) 722-3597 E-Mail: jose.martinez07 at gmail.com Southern Strums Pulls into the Motor City July 6, 2009 San Antonio, Texas - For five years the Texas Association of Blind Students (TABS) has brought together some of the organization's finest musical talents in the convenience of one exceptional performance. In times past the benefit concert has evolved into a tradition in the general flow of the National Federation of the Blind's annual convention, and this year the event is raising the bar, venturing out into the general public as the main entertainment for one of Detroit's finest jazz restaurants. Join TABS, in collaboration with Seldom Blues, as they proudly present Southern Strums 2009. In the chaotic landscape that is the vibrant annual convention of the National Federation of the Blind one often wonders where the time will be found to do it all. Seasoned members and first time conventioneers are always astounded by the sheer number of new people there are to meet, but the benefit to this dynamic fundraiser is that these interactions can be struck up and rekindled in the midst of a relaxing atmosphere serenaded by some of the NFB's brightest performers. "Southern Strums," says TABS president, Juan del Rosario, "is as much about providing an evening of top notch entertainment as it is about raising funds for educational projects benefiting blind students across the state of Texas. We work around the year to ensure our fellow students have equal access to educational, employment and technological opportunities, and Southern Strums is a good means of conveying our message in a wholesome manner for everyone involved." All Federationists are welcomed to Seldom Blues, conveniently located in the Renaissance Center. The show kicks off at 6:00 PM and runs until the lights go out at 10:00 PM. All guests are kindly asked to provide a donation of five dollars to be a part of this special event to a TABS representative at the registration table next to the restaurant entrance. Come one, come all. This will be an elegant evening you will not want to miss. About Seldom Blues 400 Renaissance Ctr # 1 Detroit, MI 48243 WWW.SeldomBlues.com Seldom Blues is Detroit's premier jazz restaurant and supper club. Seldom Blues offers a unique downtown entertainment and dining experience. The menu breathes excellence bringing new and inspired tastes to continental cuisine. Located In the prestigious GM Renaissance Center, Seldom Blues presents a breathtaking view of the Detroit River and Canadian skyline. From a magnificent Sunday Brunch, to a signature lunch and dinner, we invite all generations to impress dates, business clients, and guests of Detroit. Jazz musicians amidst and delectable cuisine generates a remarkable and memorable dining experience. About the Texas Association of Blind Students TABS is a membership organization devoted to the advancement of blind students of all ages. Since its inception in 1990, TABS has worked on multiple levels to encourage the equal participation of blind individuals in all functions of society. Through instructional seminars, state and national conventions, legislative action, social events, and literature, we strive to promote independence and self-advocacy. The organization operates as a whole under the principle that inside and outside the classroom blind students are fully capable of leading normal productive lives. In order to reinforce this belief, it is necessary to view the change within blind students themselves. Thus, our ongoing objective is to work in conjunction with the National Association of Blind Students (NABS) and to a larger extent with the National Federation of the Blind (NFB) to build a sturdy foundation of useful skills, solid confidence, and raw determination so that we may in turn show the public that blindness is not the limitation it is thought to be. In essence, the primary goal of TABS is to follow its parent organizations in changing what it means to be blind. ### --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ The Texas Association of Blind Students Web Site: www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Toll Free: 877-887-5902 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Texas Association of Blind Students" group. To post to this group, send email to tabs_students at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to tabs_students-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tabs_students -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4172 (20090619) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4172 (20090619) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Jun 20 03:54:55 2009 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 23:54:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Custodializm and sighted=blind interactions Message-ID: <20090620035455.5441.47523@web2.serotek.com> Listers: I consider myself to have excellent cane travel skills, and I feel that my skills are self evident when I walk alone or when others walk with me regardless of whether they are blind or sighted. Ordinarily, I choose to converse with my friends and simply walk beside them because that's what's convenient for me. If I feel the desire or necessity to take an arm, I'll ask for it, and my friends (blind or sighted) don't mind. Usually, I take an arm when it's rediculously crowded or something like that. Before I received cane travel lessons at the LCB, I didn't always feel so confident and competent, especially in places where my vision wasn't as effective as I would have liked. I might have been more willing to take an arm under those circumstances provided that I couldn't see some part of them and follow those cues instead. When I was with my blind friends, especially my NFB blind friends, I felt comfortable stretching out and experiencing the fullness of my blindness skills. I knew I could trust them not to laugh at me if I made a mistake. I knew that I could trust them to be patient enough to offer on-the-spot lessons if necessary, and I knew they'd be patient enough to give me cues to follow so I could follow them and really get the fullest experience out of independent movement. As for them, they may have been frustrated, impatient, and the like. But the thing is that they didn't show it. Instead, they seemed to realize how important it was for me to strike out on my own, and it was because of their patience that I got a taste of what I could expect should I decide to go through an appropriate course in cane travel. Also, I could learn through doing and observing how they interacted with the environment. As a side note, it always struck me that the leaders of my non-NFB blind groups tended to have some vision. In the NFB blind groups, it didn't matter. Often, the best and most confident leaders in our group had no vision at all or had no real travel vision to speak of. It was through their example that I understood in a real way that vision really doesn't matter. As a result, I still feel safe traveling with other NFB-ers. i can make a mistake, I can learn and grow even though I'm pretty confident and competent already, and I can trust in their understanding and encouragement should I need it. On the same level, I hear where Jim is coming from. I have a blind friend who isn't really interested in getting out there and enjoying independent movement. If she was interested, she'd do it more than she currently does with our without me. As it stands, she really doesn't and so she isn't. when we travel together, I often take the lead because I can orient better. Sometimes, I let her take the lead so she can practice orienting, making decisions, and acting on them through movement in some direction or another. Sometimes, she makes bad decisions about when to cross a street, and she often wanders out in the middle of nowhere because she's trying to see what she really can't and doesn't have the blindness skills to compensate. Sure, I get frustrated because it takes her twenty minutes to walk to some place that I can reach in five. But, I try not to let it show for the same reasons my nFB mentors didn't let it show. I understand that it's not all about me, my convenience, getting some place, or any of that. Sometimes, it's about letting go and letting the less experienced actually get some experience so they can hopefully become more confident and competent. Too often, we blind people aren't given the chance to stretch our wings because, to be honest, many sighted people feel its their responsibility to help and take care of us be it out of kindness or just a desire to get it done faster. That's the value of experiences like walking with an NFB friend who understands that I need to stretch out as much as they do, especially in an environment like Convention for example. From where I'm standing, it's always felt to me like there's an unspoken understanding that since we're not exactly in the real world, why not get out and explore our talents and sharpen our skills? On a much smaller level, I try to foster that sense of understanding even when I'm with only one NFB blind friend. In most cases, it really doesn't matter how long it takes to get to the grocery store. What matters is what happens between the time we leave my friend's house and when we get there. Does that make sense? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > This is very interesting. I have to say, I've never really had a situation > like this. I guess I haven't really traveled with other blind people enough. > When ever I'm at the Jernigan Institute, everyone around me either seems to > know where they're going or already have a friend or room mate's arm. I had > a blind friend when I was in elementary school, and when we would go > somewhere she would always more than willingly take my arm, but her > blindness skills were greatly lacking and she had absolutely no desire to > improve any of them (her parents never believed she could be independent, > and it seems as a result neither did she). But I did start to feel like a > custodian, especially as we approached those fiercely independent young teen > years. It actually began to have some strain on our friendship. Now I'm > living with my boyfriend who is totally blind, and it's very different. Now > we do walk sighted-guide from time to time, but it doesn't feel like > custodializing at all. We're intimately involved with one another and have > been in a very close relationship for a few years now. People would expect > to see us more or less attached at the hip when we walk together. But when > we walk like this, even when I'm guiding him, we do both still actively use > our canes, if that matters. I just feel like I'm walking with him, not > necessarily "looking after" him in any way. I think it's also important to > note, however, that my boyfriend is *very* independent. He follows me with > ease and often even takes lead. He's confident with his cane travel skills > and at times I would venture to say his overall O&M is better than mine > regardless of how much sight either of us has. > I think it's the responsibility of the blind person first and foremost to > know what they are capable of. If you know you aren't confident enough with > your cane to take more than baby steps (or move at all in some cases), and > you therefore wont be able to simply follow your friend, then it is your > responsibility to either ask to take their arm or simply say "Go get what > you need. I'll wait here. No worries." If you don't want to be guided and > you don't want to wait, consider that all the more motivation to improve on > mobility. Ultimately, if you have a preference, or a specific thing that > will work for you, and you know what it is, it's your job to ask for it. It > isn't your sighted companion's responsability to try and guess at what it > might be and put themselves out in the process. The sighted person can > certainly ask "What can we do to make this work better for both of us?", but > that communication has to be there. > On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, >> In an earlier post, I told a breif story about going into a grocery store >> with a blind guy, and I expressed my perceptions of that situation. Well, I >> wrote the man who was the subject of that post, and I asked him some >> questions. I don't think I posed the same questions to you all as I just >> posed to him, so I have copied and pasted the relevant sections of my >> letter, and I would like to hear your opinions and answers to the questions >> I posed. >> Thanks, >> Jim >> Here is the letter >> _______________________________________________________________- >> "... >> Yesterday, when we went into the >> grocery store, I offered you an elbow which you refused. No problem. >> Since you refused my elbow, I assumed you knew the store and/or could >> keep up with me, so, without giving you much of a second thought, I >> took off looking for one soda cooler or another. However, several times >> I looked back, and you were standing in almost the same place I left >> you, or you were very slowly walking towards my general direction. I >> tried walking slower, but within two steps I was already way in front >> of you. Then, I would stop (or walk) and purposefully tap my cane to >> give you a noise to follow, but the tapping did not really seem to make >> a difference (aat least not in terms of your speed). >> In general, I felt kind of uncomfortable being in the store with you. I >> felt uncomfortable walking so slowly next to a grown man who seems in >> good health, and I felt even more uncomfortable with my "wait and tap" >> method. My discomfort stems from not having had to deal with these >> situations (interacting with other blind people) before, and not really >> knowing how, or what to do, or knowing what is appropriate and/or >> expected. >> My instinct is to treat you (or any other blind person) >> as I would treat any of my sighted friends. That means, in the grocery >> store for example, that I go from Point A to Point B, get my stuff, >> and get out as quickly as possible; and I expect that my companion >> will keep up without me slowing down. However, if I would have used >> that approach with you yesterday, I probably would have been in the >> store, found and bought our sodas, and been out the store, and you may >> have still been standing somewhere near where I left you. If that had >> been the case, I would have felt like a real jerk for having ditched my >> blind companion because he could not keep up. On the other hand, the >> other approach, the custodial approach, is equally uncomfortable to me, >> and that is the approach I felt like I was using with you (walking real >> slow and needlessly tapping my cane). >> I >> know there has to be a happy medium between my "sink or swim" (keep up >> or get left behind) approach, and my custodial (walk real slow and tap) >> approach. For as much as blind people don't want to be custodialized, I >> don't want to be a custodian. But at the same time, if blind people >> want to be considered and treated as equals, then I shouldn't feel like >> I have to wait for them, or accommodate them. >> Are >> all accommodations custodialism and a threat to blind independence? >> Where and how is that line drawn? To what extent is it the >> responsibility of the blind person to tell hs/her companion what they >> need and want? What is the sighted person to do if the blind person >> provides no such guidance? Is it the responsibility of the sighted to, and >> how should a sighted persons determine and respond to the needs and wants >> of a blind companion? >> In >> a situation such as ours in the grocery store, the options (as I see >> them) were for me to slow down, you to speed up, or for you to take my >> elbow. Why should I slow down? Why should you speed up or take an >> elbow? How are our differing needs and/or wants reconsiled without you >> feeling custodialized, and without me feeling like a custodian? >> Thanks, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts, >> Jim" >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 04:31:02 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:31:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] State Contacts Message-ID: <453A2C53D4D44B39830F45473EA9D763@Rufus> Dear all, If you are the president or student contact of your state division, please visit the link below to ensure your state's contact information is properly listed: http://www.nabslink.org/members/contacts.shtml If something is incorrect, please e-mail me off-list. Delaware, I know for sure your information has not yet been included, and I need Katherine or Liz to get with me about listing the right contact data. Thank you. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4172 (20090619) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sat Jun 20 04:38:37 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:38:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <007d01c9f068$e6880a30$0701a8c0@Serene> References: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> <007d01c9f068$e6880a30$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <20090620003837.2ab3qbgntw84wgc4@webmail.utoronto.ca> I would respectfully disagree. I think it's 100% the school's responsibility to orient the student to campus. If the student wishes to learn the surrounding city/town they should find their own way of doing it, but how can a office for students with disabilities properly assist their students academically if the students don't know the way to class? Quoting Serena : > I don't think the college has a legal responsibility to provide cane > lessons to blind students and, yes, it's the student's responsibility > to orient to the campus. Having said that, this doesn't mean that > nobody should be available to help students orient. It doesn't have to > be the disability services office. When I was in college, I simply > asked friends I really trusted to walk with me around campus to orient > me. I also sometimes used my mom. If you don't think your friends are > right for the job, so to speak, readers are often good options. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "V Nork" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:47 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > >> Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a >> research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. >> What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if >> he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no >> funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this >> example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just >> needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route >> planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my >> campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the >> blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have >> help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who >> needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It >> just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of >> the college or university could be designated to offer some >> assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through >> so a student could get to >> classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key >> way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. >> My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is >> this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for >> any thoughts, Ginnie >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sat Jun 20 04:39:24 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 00:39:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cool Online Stats Program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090620003924.2eecf5upkw0kws80@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Arielle! Thanks! This is so sweet. I hope it works out well. Sarah Quoting Arielle Silverman : > Hi all, > > I just discovered a Web-based statistical calculator called GraphPad > QuickCalcs that looks really neat and extremely accessible too. You > can check it out at > http://www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/index.cfm > It won't do some of the more complicated procedures, but is great for > most of the basic stuff (such as T-tests and chi-square tests) as well > as certain kinds of chemistry problems. It also seems to include a > lot of built-in conceptual help. Might be a good accessible > alternative to SPSS for introductory stats courses and simple research > analyses. > > Anyone have experience using this application? > > Arielle > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sat Jun 20 05:07:21 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 01:07:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090620010721.qsx5mmnkg8cg48gg@webmail.utoronto.ca> Marc, Are you on the NEADS board? I think I might find myself there, considering how badly things have been in the world of accessibility at school for me lately. Quoting mworkman at ualberta.ca: > I'm not sure, Steve, if the criticism of over-simplifying these issues > includes this particular discussion, but I can say that I'm genuinely trying > to gain a deeper understanding of the thinking on these matters. Perhaps > there is no uniform NFB position, which is fine, perhaps the best we can do > is put forward our thinking on the matter and see if we can get a better > sense of why people hold the positions they do. I'd be happy with that. > > I probably don't have to say this, but I will. This is not an exercise in > NFB bashing. If I were an american, I'd almost certainly be an active NFB > member. I've even travelled from central Alberta to a national convention > in Dallas and enjoyed it very much. I became active in the blindness > movement in Canada after attending that convention, and I'm now on the > National Board of one of the many advocacy organizations here in Canada. > For me, this is primarily a philosophical discussion, much like if we were > discussing equality or independence. People cannot possibly all agree on > what exactly equality means, nor should we, but it's a discussion worth > having all the same. > > I also would rather avoid getting bogged down in specific instances that > carry a lot of emotional weight. The problem I find is that it is very > difficult to discuss this stuff purely in the abstract. It is much easier > with a concrete example, but unfortunately, using a concrete example usually > requires simplifying the specific case to some extent. > > You say we do need to weigh the costs of altering the environment, which > come in the form of perpetuation of negative stereotypes etc, against the > benefits. I don't want to sound naive. I recognize the potential for these > costs. I just can't let the possibility that someone will misinterpret what > I'm doing stop me from doing something that I otherwise believe is right. I > also think that steps can be taken to minimize or eliminate the negative > possibilities. These steps come primarily in the form of education. I > don't think we're going to come together on this one. It might be the first > place where people simply disagree with one another. > > I'm not sure that believing in universal design as a principle that should > govern the design of environments, products, and services necessarily > requires us to stop examining costs and benefits. For me, the belief in > universal design is like the belief in equality or autonomey. We all want > equality for blind citizens. You say yourself that we all want equal access > to education but that what constitutes equal access will differ in specific > cases. I think universal design is similar. It is an over arching > principle like equality or independence that we should always be striving > for. We won't always agree on the best way to achieve it, but we should all > work towards it in the best way we know how. I don't think the NFB, in > general, believes in universal design in the way it believes in equality and > independence, at least not when it comes to the built environment. > > The point about environmental changes not allowing us to fully develop our > skills is an excellent one. At least, I can totally understand why someone > would oppose changes on these grounds. My initial thoughts are to say that > universal design and excellent blindness training are compatible, but I know > this doesn't quite get at what your saying. I also want to say that if I > didn't have to spend as much time developing my skills to deal with a badly > designed environment, I might be able to spend my time on more interesting > and important things like studying and spending time with friends and > family. I could see you saying that I will learn the hard way that not all > environments can be universally designed, so by making some environments > easier to navigate, I'm setting myself up to fail in environments that are > harder. I guess I would say that's how things are today, so nothing really > would change except that the number of places where I need to bust out my > top skills would be minimized. So we would still need great training > centres, which is perfectly compatible with universal design, and there > would still be places where you would need to employ higher-level skills. > > I admit that I'm not entirely satisfied with the response I've just offered. > I need to think more about it. I know I'm not comfortable with the idea > that we should leave the environment badly designed so that it forces us to > acquire and maintain better skills. If you take it to the extreme, it > actually raises the possibility that we should make the environment harder > to navigate so that we are forced to acquire and maintain better blindness > skills. I know that's not what you're saying, but it seems like a plausible > implication of the argument. > > Finally, I will point out that universal design is compatible with > specialized services. I believe that universal design is simply, to the > greatest extent possible, designing things in ways that take into > consideration differences in ability, skill, training, intelligence, etc. > There are more detailed definitions, but I think that one will do. So > whenever it is not possible to design something in a way that will meet > everyone's unique needs, then special adaptation is perfectly acceptable. > The goal is to minimize the need for special adaptation. There is no reason > special adaptation cannot exist if necessary. > > Thanks for the interesting observations. > > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On > Behalf Of Steve Jacobson > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:05 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the > world adapt to us? > > > Over the years, this is a subject that has seemed to me to be often > overlooked and oversimplified for the sake of making arguments. I don't > claim to know all the > thought processes behind all members of the NFB who feel that our positions > are generally correct, but I do know my processes and at least my tendency > to look at > universal environmental design negatively is based only to a small degree > upon the image that some aspects can perpetuate. Having said that, I > believe that > perpetuating a negative image needs to be considered and is not worth it if > the gain isn't significant. > > The first thing that bothers me about taking positions based upon universal > environmental design as portrayed here is that is allows us to stop > considering what are > the gains and the losses. To take a position simply because it is believed > we have a right to it without considering the costs and the benefits won't > serve us well in > the long run. > > Second, we operate within a society that assumes by default that most > activities cannot be performed unaided by blind persons. Certainly there > are exceptions, > we're all good at music, for example, but in general the assumption is that > most things suggested are thought not to be something we can do. As a > result, we often > believe we can't do many things until we see others doing it or until we are > pressed to push ourselves a little. Much of this "pushing" happens for many > of us in > adjustment to blindness training and through our exposure to other > successful blind people. The result of some of the "pushing" that happens > is that we find that > many things we think are difficult to do turn out to be an everyday > happening after a time. Some of what we must "push" to do is not truly due > to it being difficult, but > rather, a result of having to push against society's and our own beliefs of > what we can do. If we are not careful of what we build into an environment, > we will build > into it those things that society believes we cannot do, minimizing our > chances to develop our own skills. Beyond that, we are part of society, and > as such, those of > us who are lucky enough to be tax payers should be concerned as to whether > the money spent is something that truly makes our lives better. > > What about the fact that some of us need certain help while others of us do > not? This is again a problem faced by all society and it is not one with > simple answers. > To try to come up with a universal design in an environmental sense that > meets everyone's needs is not necessarily the way to go. For some needs, a > universal > design will never be adequate and the needs will have to be met through > specialized services. To think we will solve all problems through a > universal approach will > likely reduce the chances of some groups having special needs from getting > the specialized services that they need. In some cases, creating a > universal approach > that tries to meet everybody's needs will either be too expensive or not > serve anyone effectively while providing a false sense that everyone is > truly better off. > > What I believe we in the NFB have tried to do is to try to look at many > larger issues individually rather than taking the position that since > sighted people have it, it > must be provided to us. This philosophy may well be something we all agree > applies to specific larger issues, but I do not personally believe it is a > general rule to > follow for every issue. For example, my guess is that we all would agree > that blind people need to have as equal access as possible to education. > However, that > does not mean that every aspect of education will be handled in the same > way. For example, most printed maps cannot simply be raised or made tactual > as is. They > are simply too complicated. We are going to need to get information > filtered in some way to extract the educational value that we need. We need > equal access, but > equal access isn't always going to be the same access. There are other > environmental issues that are similar where broader access doesn't imply > that all access at > all levels will be exactly what sighted persons get. We need to define what > we need in some cases or figure out how we can adapt to make a solution most > effective. We have to think ahead. Some on this list will learn the hard > way that some of the services provided by colleges to provide equal access > prevent one > from developing skills necessary in many employment situations. The same > can be true of other solutions to access that adapt the environment in some > cases for > short term or specific gains but don't take the longer view of how they > might affect us. > > I think this is a very important and interesting topic and hope there is > more careful discussion without getting too bogged down in specific issues > that have emotional > baggage that make them hard to discuss. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > Original message: >>> Jedi said, > >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that > you'll >>> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a >>> bad thing. > >>> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases > where >>> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue >>> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >>> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >>> included products and services while I always said environments, > products, >>> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, > is >>> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >>> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >>> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively >>> opposes it. > >>> Jedi said, > >>> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >>> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited > because >>> we can't see. > >>> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >>> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >>> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >>> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to > the >>> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >>> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the > part >>> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >>> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in >>> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >>> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. > >>> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB >>> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the > environment, >>> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and > 2) >>> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such >>> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >>> blindness. > >>> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to > oppose >>> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it > makes >>> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design > and >>> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >>> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which > I >>> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >>> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >>> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability > that >>> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. > >>> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't > want >>> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those >>> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >>> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >>> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations > are >>> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >>> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as > well, >>> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you >>> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >>> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things > in a >>> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >>> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that > make >>> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in > ways >>> that would make them less necessary? > >>> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal > design >>> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >>> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would > respond >>> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm > interested >>> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the > social >>> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been > able >>> to square these two things. > >>> Looking forward to a response when you have time. > >>> Marc > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of Jedi >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >>> world adapt to us? > > >>> Marc, > >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >>> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >>> user-friendly is a bad thing. > >>> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >>> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >>> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. > >>> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >>> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >>> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >>> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >>> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >>> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >>> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >>> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >>> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >>> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >>> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >>> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >>> can't see. > >>> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >>> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >>> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >>> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >>> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >>> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >>> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >>> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >>> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >>> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >>> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. > >>> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >>> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >>> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >>> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >>> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >>> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >>> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >>> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >>> from the NFB. > >>> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >>> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >>> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >>> provide it, we'll help them do it. > >>> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >>> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >>> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >>> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >>> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >>> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >>> to doing things visually. > >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> Original message: >>>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >>> But, >>>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >>> fight >>>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed >>> in >>>> order to facilitate easier access? > >>>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think > the >>>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>>> where we part company is on the issue of design. > >>>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because >>> no >>>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is >>> one >>>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say > that >>> I >>>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >>> currency >>>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >>> I'm >>>> wrong on this. > >>>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen > is >>>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB > argues >>>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are > the >>>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the > argument >>>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only > perpetuates >>>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >>> average >>>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >>> these >>>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >>> oppose >>>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if >>> I'm >>>> wrong. > >>>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable > itself, >>>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's > thinking? >>>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who > originally >>>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had > taken >>>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when > they >>>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about > nearly >>>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always > designed >>>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with > this >>>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >>> that >>>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>>> differences into consideration. > >>>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because > most >>>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our > best >>> to >>>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > >>>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack > adequate >>>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >>> attitude >>>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as > I >>>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and > if >>>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or > why >>>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > >>>> Regards, > >>>> Marc > >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>>> Oregon mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>>> world adapt to us? > > >>>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>>> heard. Thanks. > >>>> http://www.blindgal.com > >>>> -- >>>> Alena Roberts >>>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>>> ca > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>> bile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo > bile.net > >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40vi > si.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. > ca > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 06:19:03 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:19:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <20090620003837.2ab3qbgntw84wgc4@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <1BD3B70DB7A745B7937C832B17617DF2@Rufus> Making it a legal requirement opens the door on too many scenarios. If the DSS office begins showing students to their classes there is really no reason why the student should not be shown to the dining halls, the recreation centers, the parks, theaters, party sites and any other venue on campus not necessarily included as part of the student's class schedule. This may seem extreme, but this is also America, where loopholes are routinely abused. Would it be wrong for the school to provide someone to do this extracurricular orientation? Of course not, but I'd rather that be carried out according to the school's discretion and availability rather than as a matter of mandated obligation. A student should see the school's assistance as a useful resource rather than as a crutch. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:39 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help I would respectfully disagree. I think it's 100% the school's responsibility to orient the student to campus. If the student wishes to learn the surrounding city/town they should find their own way of doing it, but how can a office for students with disabilities properly assist their students academically if the students don't know the way to class? Quoting Serena : > I don't think the college has a legal responsibility to provide cane > lessons to blind students and, yes, it's the student's responsibility > to orient to the campus. Having said that, this doesn't mean that > nobody should be available to help students orient. It doesn't have > to be the disability services office. When I was in college, I simply > asked friends I really trusted to walk with me around campus to orient > me. I also sometimes used my mom. If you don't think your friends > are right for the job, so to speak, readers are often good options. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "V Nork" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:47 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > >> Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a >> research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. >> What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if >> he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no >> funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this >> example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just >> needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route >> planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my >> campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the >> blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have >> help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who >> needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It >> just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of >> the college or university could be designated to offer some >> assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through >> so a student could get to >> classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key >> way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. >> My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is >> this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for >> any thoughts, Ginnie >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%4 >> 0verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar > %40utoronto.ca _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4173 (20090620) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4173 (20090620) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Jun 20 06:39:20 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 02:39:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Register for the NABS Business Meeting Message-ID: <2049453454CC4409BB5A1FAFB38C277A@Rufus> Dear all, Please register online for the NABS business meeting. Fill out the form located at the link below. Then, on the evening of Saturday, July 4, please get into the express registration line and let the NABS representative know that you have already registered online. They will have a list of registered participants, and all you will need to do is pay your five-dollar registration fee. There will be no need to spend time providing your address and other contact information. This form will also serve as your membership registration to the student division. The contact information you provide will only be shared with your state student division contact. Please note that this registration form is not the same as the NFB convention registration form. Also, note that if you do not register online, you are strongly encouraged to Braille out your contact information on an index card so that a NABS representative can more easily add your data to the directory after convention. If you have never attended a NABS meeting, the lines can be a nightmare. This is a very positive problem but one, we are sure, you could do without. Please help NABS more easily administer the registration process by registering in advance. Link: http://www.nabslink.org/members/membership_registration.shtml Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4173 (20090620) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com Sat Jun 20 16:30:20 2009 From: Rachel at BeckerConsultants.com (Rachel Becker) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 12:30:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] The procedure for getting a book recorded at RFBD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I heard that you don't need two copies anymore. I've never had a book recorded, but I'd be interested to know how it works. Rachel -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On Behalf Of Sarah Alawami Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:40 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The procedure for getting a book recorded at RFBD I only remember that you need 2 coppies of the book. It can take a very long time to record the books if they cannot find a reader to do it. I don'[t know where to send the books though. Try going to www.rfbd.org and see. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nijat Worley Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 3:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] The procedure for getting a book recorded at RFBD Greetings NABS members, I was wondering if anybody knew the procedure for sending a book to be recorded at RFB and D. I have a few books to send in to be put into accessible format. Do we just send the book to them and they will record it? Do wee send the books to the same address as the all the books? How long does it take them to record a book? How do they deal with books that have lot of foreign words in it? Thank you. Nijat _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rachel%40beckerconsu ltants.com From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sat Jun 20 17:24:09 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 13:24:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <1BD3B70DB7A745B7937C832B17617DF2@Rufus> References: <1BD3B70DB7A745B7937C832B17617DF2@Rufus> Message-ID: <20090620132409.91dk0bixw04gcwk0@webmail.utoronto.ca> Joe, This is a good point. A compromise might be that the school provides the student with contact information for local organizations which provide o and m training, but make it the student's responsibility to get in touch with said organizations. Perhaps the school could pay for a finite number of instructional hours for the student, but then make it the student's responsibility to pay/find funding for any additional hours beyond this set number. Some schools have a bersary for students with disabilities who qualify for government assistance in paying their tuition, and some organizations who provide o and m training are registered charities who provide their services for free. Gradually making students responsible for their own orientation seems better than any alternative. Does this sound reasonable? Sarah Quoting Joe Orozco : > Making it a legal requirement opens the door on too many scenarios. If the > DSS office begins showing students to their classes there is really no > reason why the student should not be shown to the dining halls, the > recreation centers, the parks, theaters, party sites and any other venue on > campus not necessarily included as part of the student's class schedule. > This may seem extreme, but this is also America, where loopholes are > routinely abused. Would it be wrong for the school to provide someone to > do this extracurricular orientation? Of course not, but I'd rather that be > carried out according to the school's discretion and availability rather > than as a matter of mandated obligation. A student should see the school's > assistance as a useful resource rather than as a crutch. > > Joe Orozco > > "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the > crowd."--Max Lucado > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:39 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > > > > I would respectfully disagree. I think it's 100% the school's > responsibility to orient the student to campus. If the student > wishes to learn the surrounding city/town they should find > their own way of doing it, but how can a office for students > with disabilities properly assist their students academically > if the students don't know the way to class? > > > Quoting Serena : > >> I don't think the college has a legal responsibility to provide cane >> lessons to blind students and, yes, it's the student's responsibility >> to orient to the campus. Having said that, this doesn't mean that >> nobody should be available to help students orient. It doesn't have >> to be the disability services office. When I was in college, > I simply >> asked friends I really trusted to walk with me around campus > to orient >> me. I also sometimes used my mom. If you don't think your friends >> are right for the job, so to speak, readers are often good options. >> >> Serena >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "V Nork" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:47 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help >> >> >>> Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a >>> research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. >>> What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if >>> he or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no >>> funding from government or social agencies? Let us say in this >>> example the student already had basic white cane skills, but just >>> needed to have someone walk with them until they had a route >>> planned? Would the college or university offer direct help? On my >>> campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of the >>> blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have >>> help or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who >>> needed help should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It >>> just seems to me that is reasonable to think that some member of >>> the college or university could be designated to offer some >>> assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an initial run through >>> so a student could get to >>> classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key >>> way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. >>> My request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is >>> this similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for >>> any thoughts, Ginnie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%4 >>> 0verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar >> %40utoronto.ca > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco > %40gmail.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of > virus signature database 4173 (20090620) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 4173 (20090620) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From serenacucco at verizon.net Sat Jun 20 23:59:55 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:59:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help References: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96><007d01c9f068$e6880a30$0701a8c0@Serene> <20090620003837.2ab3qbgntw84wgc4@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <009d01c9f203$360969a0$0701a8c0@Serene> I only meant that they legally don't have to provide cane lessons, not that they morally shouldn't do it. Plus, the disability office doesn't necessarily know anything about blindness before the first blind student comes on campus, so might not be the best option. Asking the office for some responsible students to orient the blind students could be helpful. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > > > I would respectfully disagree. I think it's 100% the school's > responsibility to orient the student to campus. If the student wishes to > learn the surrounding city/town they should find their own way of doing > it, but how can a office for students with disabilities properly assist > their students academically if the students don't know the way to class? > > > Quoting Serena : > >> I don't think the college has a legal responsibility to provide cane >> lessons to blind students and, yes, it's the student's responsibility >> to orient to the campus. Having said that, this doesn't mean that >> nobody should be available to help students orient. It doesn't have to >> be the disability services office. When I was in college, I simply >> asked friends I really trusted to walk with me around campus to orient >> me. I also sometimes used my mom. If you don't think your friends are >> right for the job, so to speak, readers are often good options. >> >> Serena >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "V Nork" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:47 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help >> >> >>> Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a >>> research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. >>> What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he >>> or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding >>> from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the >>> student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have >>> someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the >>> college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is >>> seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is >>> simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for >>> it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a >>> flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is >>> reasonable to think that some member of the college or university >>> could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility >>> aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to >>> classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key >>> way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My >>> request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this >>> similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any >>> thoughts, Ginnie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From serenacucco at verizon.net Sat Jun 20 23:54:59 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 19:54:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Custodializm and sighted=blind interactions References: <224148.53973.qm@web65707.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008301c9f202$85a50290$0701a8c0@Serene> I suspect the blind person really wanted verbal directing, as if you were fully sighted. I think he/she didn't realize that blind or partially sighted people can't really give verbal directing as easily as sighted people. He/she should've told you what he/she wanted and really should've taken your elbow, so he/she wouldn't get lost. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "NABS mail list" Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 8:07 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Custodializm and sighted=blind interactions Hey all, In an earlier post, I told a breif story about going into a grocery store with a blind guy, and I expressed my perceptions of that situation. Well, I wrote the man who was the subject of that post, and I asked him some questions. I don't think I posed the same questions to you all as I just posed to him, so I have copied and pasted the relevant sections of my letter, and I would like to hear your opinions and answers to the questions I posed. Thanks, Jim Here is the letter _______________________________________________________________- "... Yesterday, when we went into the grocery store, I offered you an elbow which you refused. No problem. Since you refused my elbow, I assumed you knew the store and/or could keep up with me, so, without giving you much of a second thought, I took off looking for one soda cooler or another. However, several times I looked back, and you were standing in almost the same place I left you, or you were very slowly walking towards my general direction. I tried walking slower, but within two steps I was already way in front of you. Then, I would stop (or walk) and purposefully tap my cane to give you a noise to follow, but the tapping did not really seem to make a difference (aat least not in terms of your speed). In general, I felt kind of uncomfortable being in the store with you. I felt uncomfortable walking so slowly next to a grown man who seems in good health, and I felt even more uncomfortable with my "wait and tap" method. My discomfort stems from not having had to deal with these situations (interacting with other blind people) before, and not really knowing how, or what to do, or knowing what is appropriate and/or expected. My instinct is to treat you (or any other blind person) as I would treat any of my sighted friends. That means, in the grocery store for example, that I go from Point A to Point B, get my stuff, and get out as quickly as possible; and I expect that my companion will keep up without me slowing down. However, if I would have used that approach with you yesterday, I probably would have been in the store, found and bought our sodas, and been out the store, and you may have still been standing somewhere near where I left you. If that had been the case, I would have felt like a real jerk for having ditched my blind companion because he could not keep up. On the other hand, the other approach, the custodial approach, is equally uncomfortable to me, and that is the approach I felt like I was using with you (walking real slow and needlessly tapping my cane). I know there has to be a happy medium between my "sink or swim" (keep up or get left behind) approach, and my custodial (walk real slow and tap) approach. For as much as blind people don't want to be custodialized, I don't want to be a custodian. But at the same time, if blind people want to be considered and treated as equals, then I shouldn't feel like I have to wait for them, or accommodate them. Are all accommodations custodialism and a threat to blind independence? Where and how is that line drawn? To what extent is it the responsibility of the blind person to tell hs/her companion what they need and want? What is the sighted person to do if the blind person provides no such guidance? Is it the responsibility of the sighted to, and how should a sighted persons determine and respond to the needs and wants of a blind companion? In a situation such as ours in the grocery store, the options (as I see them) were for me to slow down, you to speed up, or for you to take my elbow. Why should I slow down? Why should you speed up or take an elbow? How are our differing needs and/or wants reconsiled without you feeling custodialized, and without me feeling like a custodian? Thanks, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts, Jim" "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Jun 21 00:04:34 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:04:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] first O/M lesson Message-ID: Hi Jim, Wow, what an experience you had. My first thoughts are to politely discuss your goals with your instructor prior to the next lesson. She is probably not used to someone with these goals. Most low vision people will naturally want to use their vision and cane. Its only those in the NFB that understand the value of learning nonvisually. You're right there's no point in learning routes using visual landmarks when you may or may not see them later on when you're actually traveling to a destination. Explain to your instructor you wish to learn nonvisually because your vision is not useful at night or dim lighting conditions. Explain you have classes and events to attend at night and therefore its neccessary to learn nonvisually. I think you have the right idea to insist you keep your sleep shades on the entire lesson. Generally clients recieving O/M instruction use their vision and cane skills. To my knowledge only the three nfb centers and a few state centers modeled after NFB philosophy teach using nonvisual instruction. Still if that is what you want they should work with you to meet those goals even if their university O/M courses said to use low vision and landmarks. My advice is to be polite but upfront with your instructor and try and work with her. If after two or three lessons you still are fighting her teaching style focussing only on visual landmarks you can do something. Either get a new instructor if possible or teach yourself. Is there someone skilled in travel in your nearby nfb chapter? If so, ask them for some informal instruction. Fortunately there's a handful of members great in travel at the two nfb chapters nearby. I can practice with them or get advice. I rarely do because we are all busy but its an option. Is there any private agencies with O/M instructors you could try? In my area there's the Columbia lighthouse for the blind. I've gotten sufficient instruction through the department for the blind though. I think you just had bad luck. Many instructors while not following nfb philosophy, are at least a bit open minded! Here's a bit about my O/M background briefly. Like you I have tunnel vision. I have a real limited field though and nystagmus. I recieved a cane in second grade. I got a folding aluminum cane but in high school switched to a lighter folding cane because friends recommended it. I had an O/M instructor in public school similar to what you described. We had lessons every other week. She was heavily focussed on pointing out visual landmarks. She did not encourage me to use the tapping method with the cane so I could hear echos from it. She pointed out obstacles my cane could have come across. All she did with me was teach me a root that I never used. Looking back on it the lessons were almost pointless. I was able to practice crossing different kinds of streets wich was a good start to outdoor travel. She also did a good job of orienting me to my classes in middle and high school. I walked independely. Its apaulling to me that I hear stories of aids escorting students from class to class. They ought to be learning and then walking themselves! However after public school when working with the department for the blind, a different better story. I had two instructors. One I just started with because the first one left. It was much better. My goals were to learn to navigate around campus, learn/practice crossing streets, learn about the layout and adress system, take buses, take the subway, and keep a better cane technique. In public school I usually used the diagonal technique and sometimes constant contact. That's sliding the cane in an arc. Not much attention was given to walking in step or tapping it probably since I had vision. I chose to use my vision and cane, but but clients can use sleepshades and instructors will respect that. My instructor taught me routes to classes. She taught me about the subway such as if the red line was upstairs. Often blue and orange lines going to the capitol are on one level and those going the other way are on another level. I learned that if the track has two lines they alternate colors, like a blue then an orange train. But you have to ask a sighted person to know for sure. We did a few bus lessons too. She took me to a few stores and showed me where customer service was. These skills of knowing the metro subway layout and using customer service were helpful and gave me confidence. These skills were transferable to other situations. She taught me about streets and described the layout using cardinal directions. My point being that there are good instructors out there and open minded to what you want. They will listen to your goals and help you achieve them if they're good instructors. Its too bad you had a closed minded person set in their ways on route travel and visual orientation. My instructor expected me to use tactile info from the cane and my sense of smell and hearing. If I wasn't listening and paying attention she'd say something to me! My second instructor I have now teaches general skills and expects you to apply them to other settings. He is open to helping the client learn what they want. He will tell you the layout of streets with cardinal directions if you want to know. He will use sleep shades if 1) the client wants to. or 2) the client is losing vision. I think my instructors after high school that I got after age 18 were much better and had higher expectations. I learned more in a short time from them than I did in several years of lessons in public school! Please keep us posted on what happens. As for sleep shades I don't think its neccessary to block out all light. If your vision is blocked that's what matters. So your idea of buying cheap sunglasses and painting them will work okay. Ashley From RWest at nfb.org Sun Jun 21 01:09:59 2009 From: RWest at nfb.org (West, Renee) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:09:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB-NEWSLINE 2009 National Convention Schedule of Events Message-ID: Opportunities to learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® Online’s revolutionary new features available during NFB’s National Convention in Detroit Michigan NFB-NEWSLINE® is looking towards the future with new initiatives that make use of modern-age assistive technology and devices. We have four new initiatives, NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, Podable News, and KeyStream, and we want to share information about our new initiatives with national convention attendees. To that end we have arranged for a suite to allow for hands-on demonstrations of our new features in addition to two tables in our exhibit hall. Our suite will feature four computer stations so that you can gain a better understanding of, and first-hand experience with, our new initiatives. We will have several open-house events in our suite to accommodate the time constraints of convention attendees, so please look through the NFB-NEWSLINE® schedule below to see which open-house sessions are a best fit with your own schedule. You may feel free to drop in during any of the open-house sessions. For those of you unfamiliar with our new initiatives, here’s a brief description of each to whet your appetite before you come visit us in our suite to fill up on these goodies: Web News on Demand Web News on Demand provides all of the features that subscribers enjoy with the traditional, phone-based service, including access to all of their favorite publications, the TV listings, and the Local Information Channel content. With Web News on Demand subscribers can, for the first time ever, visit a secure, text-only Web site that offers the distinctive ability to view the entirety of any publication offered on the service. Further, this ability affords a uniquely enhanced search capability as a reader can search for a term throughout the publication’s content. A subscriber using Web News on Demand is able to send a full newspaper, a section of a newspaper, or a single article to his or her e-mail inbox, allowing for unrivaled and immediate access to a breaking news story. NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket With NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, we've increased the flexibility and functionality of NFB-NEWSLINE® so that our subscribers can more easily and quickly get their news through a digital talking book player (such as the Victor Reader Stream, Icon, or Braille+). NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket is a dynamic software application that a subscriber installs on his or her computer that, through an Internet connection, automatically downloads the publications of the subscriber’s choice to his or her portable digital talking book player (such as the Victor Reader Stream, the Icon, or the Braille+). Through this revolutionary initiative subscribers can gain easy and immediate access to their favorite publications and enjoy the reading experience that is offered with a DAISY-reading device. Podable News Podable News provides publication content in an audio format so that subscribers can use an Ipod or other MP3-playing device to access their favorite newspapers and magazines. Also, with Podable News, you now have the ability to create your own "paper." If you like to read USA Today's sports coverage, but prefer the Wall Street Journal's technology reporting, and you never miss The New Yorker's Shouts and Murmurs column, you'll really appreciate NFB-NEWSLINE®'s innovative functionality using your MP3-playing device. KeyStream This initiative streams NFB-NEWSLINE® publication content over the Internet, allowing for the same usability and flexibility as the traditional, phone-based service, but is accessed with your computer. KeyStream is quite easy to use, even for those with very little computer experience. Friday, July 3: 9:00am - 11:00am At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 11:30am - 1:30pm Affiliate President’s Gathering: Presentation, Demonstration, Affiliate outreach. Affiliate presidents, give your members the good news about NFB-NEWSLINE®! In this session we'll give you an opportunity to experience our new initiatives for yourself, and we'll also explore ways in which you and your members can share information about the service in your own communities. Room 6401 2:00pm - 6:00pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 6:30pm - 8:00pm Walk-in NFB-NEWSLINE® informational exhibit for parents of blind children, as well as their children. Please join us with your child(ren) for an opportunity to become familiar with the NFB-NEWSLINE® service and its new features. Besides getting some hands-on experience, you'll also learn how having access to the news can help your child in his or her schoolwork and provide the foundation for a successful adult life. Best suited for ages 10 and up. Room 6401 8:30pm - 10:00pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 Saturday, July 4: 1:00 - 3:00 What’s New with NFB-NEWSLINE®? Presentational Seminar: Come and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE®, the world’s largest audible newspaper service for the blind and visually impaired. Topics covered will include information on our newest online initiatives and improvements to the service. Mackinac West Ballroom, Level 5 3:30pm - 6:00pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 6:30pm - 8:00pm Gathering for professionals in the field of work with the blind. Are you a teacher of blind students? Are you involved in the rehabilitation field, or do you work for an agency or organization that serves the blind? If so, please come and join us for an evening of presentations and possibilities. You can get hands-on experience with our new initiatives and explore how they can serve to assist a blind child achieve educational success as well as provide content for an adult’s rehabilitation process. Room 6401 8:30pm - 10:00pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 Sunday, July 5: 8:00am - 11:00 At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 1:30pm - 5:30pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 6:00pm -7:00pm Promotion, Evaluation, and Advancement of Technology Committee Gathering. This session is for anyone working with, has an interest in, or teaches assistive technology. We will provide an opportunity to gain hands-on experience with NFB-NEWSLINE®’s new initiatives and discuss ways to promote the service to your colleagues and clients. Room 6401 8:30pm – 10:00pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 Monday, July 6: 6:30pm until 10:00pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 Tuesday, July 7: 6:30pm until 10:00pm At any time during this open-house session, please stop by and learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Web News on Demand, and our other revolutionary new features! We have four computer stations with Internet connections where you can get personal, hands-on experience with our new features. Room 6401 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2009-05-08 STP Final Convention Schedule.doc Type: application/msword Size: 45568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Sun Jun 21 01:35:34 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:35:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <860608.92622.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <860608.92622.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jim: I would say that in general, the NFB position is not to never ask for changes in the environment, but to ask only for those changes we think are really necessary. There are others in the blindness field who will always ask for changes first, and we don't think this is the right position to take. Sometimes if you ask and you aren't successful, you do more damage then if you never asked at all -- setting a bad legal precedent. Sometimes the cost may be to high, a literal cost, or a figurative cost -- that is in the damage you do to what sighted people think of blind persons. So to some we may seem inconsistent. This isn't the case, but you must be able to draw sometimes subtle distinctions, weigh costs etc. Dave At 01:46 PM 6/19/2009, you wrote: >Hey all, > >I have not been following this thread, so sorry if my thoughts have >been expressed by otheres elseware. > >Think about the silent /hybrid car issue and you have your answer. >Clearly the blind community has already deemed it appropreate to >make the world adapt to us. And if you look at the Kindle situation >you can see that the blind community would rather force the world to >adapt to us, rather than develop "work arounds" that allow us to >adapt to the world. From info at michaelhingson.com Sun Jun 21 01:13:10 2009 From: info at michaelhingson.com (Michael Hingson) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 20:13:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] KNFB Reader Mobile and Making Money Message-ID: Dear Colleagues, Are you a power user of the KnfbReader Mobile? Are you attending the up-coming NFB National convention in Detroit? Are you interested in earning a little extra spending money? If your answers to these three questions were "yes" then I would like to talk with you. As you may know, the NFB is a National distributor for the KnfbReader Mobile. We will be operating the KnfbReader booth at the NFB convention. I am looking for a few good Reader users to help demo on Saturday, July 4, and Sunday, July 5. If you believe you can do the job please call me before Friday, June 26, 2009 at (415) 827-4084 so we can discuss how you might fit in. I am also looking for some help from one or two persons who can help us with credit card processing. For this job I will need people who can see and read a laptop computer screen. If you or someone you know might be interested again please call me at (415) 827-4084. Thank you for your help. The KnfbReader Mobile is the most exciting product yet developed by the team of the NFB and Ray Kurzweil. I appreciate your help in making Reader sales a great success in Detroit. To your success, Mike Hingson The Michael Hingson Group "Speaking with Vision" Michael Hingson, President (415) 827-4084 info at michaelhingson.com www.michaelhingson.com for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit: http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com http://michaelhingson.com/images/knfbReader-michael_hingson.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1bec913.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3059 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jmassay1 at cox.net Sun Jun 21 03:07:48 2009 From: jmassay1 at cox.net (JMassay) Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2009 22:07:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] march for Independence Message-ID: Jim, I think it is unfortunate that you will not be walking in the march for Independence. Aside from raising money to support the Imagination Fund, it is a public opportunity to display our independence . While it is true that there will always be people who gawk at anyone different from themselves, that is not an acceptable excuse to not participate. Each one of us has an opportunity , if not many, everyday to demonstrate that blindness is not a tragedy. By participating fully in life, and proudly doing so, you can make a difference in educating someone about the capabilities of yourself and the other blind members of the organization that you have become a part of. It can be difficult to not pay attention to what you think others perceptions might be, but seriously? Do you really care about someone who would think you (we ), are a "freak" show? Jeannie From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 17:48:53 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 12:48:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A Tribute To Those GOing To National Convention And More On Tonight's Djd Invasion Message-ID: Hello To All! The Djd Invasion returns to your internet dial on Radio360 this evening starting at 7 PM eastern time. For tonight's show, we've got New music from taylor Swift A tribute to those who are going to the NFB convention in Detroit Some comedy And more... Plus Big Dan will be co hosting on tonight's show as well. During the show, you can contact us by email msn or aol instant messenger at the address live at radio360.us or, when we're not playing songs, you can contact us on skype at radio360usa or by phone by dialing 516-717-4425 So to listen, save this email, and at 7 PM eastern, go to http://www.radio360.us/players/playerselection.html to be connected to tonight's show. We both hope to see you there! Best regards, David Dunphy, station manager of Radio360 http://www.radio360.us From Kim.Charlson at Perkins.org Sun Jun 21 18:55:48 2009 From: Kim.Charlson at Perkins.org (Kim.Charlson at Perkins.org) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:55:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [bana-announce] Research Participants Needed for NUBS Evaluation Message-ID: The Braille Authority of North America (BANA), in response to consumer requests, is conducting an evaluation of the Nemeth Uniform Braille System (NUBS) at major conferences this year including the NFB and ACB conventions, the Getting in Touch with Literacy conference, and the fall NBA meeting. NUBS is an experimental code designed to include literary, math, and scientific information, combining all three codes into one unified system. As an initial phase of this evaluation, BANA is recruiting interested Braille readers who will be attending consumer conventions this summer, to participate in one or more aspects of the evaluation. BANA is looking for a broad representation of participants--readers of various ages, with different levels of braille reading experience, and both casual and professional users of braille. At the conventions, selected individuals will take part in sessions examining the experimental code. Some individuals will be assigned to a group task, and others to a half-hour individual task. If an individual is not selected for the convention tasks, he or she will be welcome to participate in a later survey. If you are interested in being considered as a participant in this phase, please complete the online survey at www.brailleauthority.org/nubssurv.html. From all of the responses received BANA will create participant groups of similar size. If you are interested in attending sessions this fall at either Getting in Touch with Literacy or the fall NBA conference, watch for an announcement from BANA later this summer with information on how to volunteer. From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 20:24:59 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:24:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090621202459.GF12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Marc, You said that the NFB's positions on these issues is more nuanced than you indicate, and you are right. One of the problems I have seen is that while some very active members who have closely followed the issues can adequately articulate those positions, a lot of people don't follow them that closely or buy in to the press releases of our opponents which intentionally seek to remove those crucial details. Let us take the squawker signals as an excellent example. When they first came on the scene, it really was black and white with the NFB, because the signals were and are dangerous. It's not even that the lights as they exist are badly designed from a universal perspective, but that the solution was worse than the problem. If you have to choose between hearing cars and hearing that the light has changed, you're less likely to go splat if you know what the cars are doing. That isn't a matter of training, either. That's a matter of common sense and self-preservation. Now, learning to hear what those cars are doing and accurately interpret the results—ah, now that takes some training. The nuance came into play when newer signals with speakers at each pole that make only as much noise as they need to came around. As an organization, we still believe it is impractical to spend the billions of dollars to immediately outfit every single signal with these things. We continue to be offended that sighted people seem to think that vocational rehabilitation centers need them, but far more difficult intersections do not. There is a means of installing the things that does not have a significant financial burden associated: Install them only when the intersection is being serviced. When you do that, the cost is only that of the signals themselves and a small amount of labor. If the signal is being replaced as part of the service, the cost is almost nothing to make the choice of a more universal signal. I don't see the NFB as "progressive", and I don't really like that word anyway, since logically what is "progressive" would depend on your definition of "progress". Hopefully without a political debate, I will opine that the group using that term since before I was born is collectively the most custodial bunch of people who ever tried to commit charity upon us to ensure that we're taken care of like everybody else. No sir, I suspect the NFB is the antithesis of that way of thinking even if we have to sometimes accept what they offer and use it as best we can for our own purposes. Instead, I would say that the NFB is pragmatic. If you remove the danger factor of universally designed pedestrian signals, you are left with the financial impact. That is where the NFB appears to shy away from them. There may be a debate about whether the sighted world would treat us differently if we fought for these things, but the real objection comes down to money: If they have to spend tons of money on us, we fear resentment and retaliation. I personally found each one of the NFB's arguments against altering the US currency to be valid, and yet I still managed to find a logical basis for supporting the ACB's goal, despite agreement that their method posed risk. That logic, combined with a broader view of people who could benefit from the changes in question, some basic moral teaching of my faith led me to one conclusion: I continued to support it despite the cost involved—though I put forward some plans that would reduce the overall cost in exchange for a longer transition to a universal currency. The NFB didn't agree with me on that one, and I was not able to convince a majority that I was right. Yet when the decision was made that changes were made, the NFB did demonstrate interest in making sure the changes made were useful ones. I think when it comes right down to it, most things that are worth changing are worth changing for the sake of everyone. If they aren't going to benefit everyone, we ask two questions: Does the need really exist? And if so, how best can that need be filled, taking all factors into consideration? We don't always operate this way—or we may occasionally lose some perspective in the heat of the moment. Generally though, it is the way the NFB operates. It serves us well, too. Joseph On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 03:40:29PM -0600, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: >I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. But, >for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people fight >for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed in >order to facilitate easier access? > >I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the >organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >where we part company is on the issue of design. > >If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because no >amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is one >example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that I >know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible currency >are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if I'm >wrong on this. > >So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues >that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the average >sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because these >adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to oppose >them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if I'm >wrong. > >Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that that >is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >differences into consideration. > >So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best to >educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. > >Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate >rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right attitude >when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. > >Regards, > >Marc > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >Behalf Of alena roberts >Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >Oregon mailing list >Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >world adapt to us? > > >Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >heard. Thanks. > >http://www.blindgal.com > >-- >Alena Roberts >Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >ca > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 20:35:28 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:35:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: References: <20090619002510.27645.46806@web3.serotek.com> Message-ID: <20090621203528.GH12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Arielle, As always, you raise an interesting point. We do have finite resources, and we students have more finite resources than most. This probably stems from the large negative income we have. *grin* I think it has to become about priorities and choosing our battles. We cannot take on the whole world at the same time, even if all of the blind are united behind us. There's just a lot more of them than there are of us. We must therefore consider and decide where to concentrate our resources. My mother never told me to pick my battles, but fortunately I have a loving Godmother who made sure that I learned this before I "grew up". The NFB shouldn't forget the lesson so many of us have had to learn, usually the hard way. Joseph On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 03:16:31PM +1000, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Hi all, > >I'm really tired and so will provide only a brief response here--will >elaborate more later. I won't try to speak for the NFB, but will share >my personal opinion and a new angle on this issue. I am personally in >full support of universal design principles and practices. I don't >think that having universally accessible systems in place perpetuates >prejudice or misconceptions. However, I do think the critical question >is "How much should we fight for environmental modifications?" rather >than "Should the environment be changed?" In answering the former >question I do think that fighting too much is what can hurt blind >people. This is because we have limited energy, time and resources. >Whenever we choose to fight more on one issue, I think time, money, >and energy that could be spent on another issue is taken away. That >kind of trade-off is really what we're facing here. > >Again, more on this later, but it gives you something else to think about. > >Arielle > >On 6/19/09, mworkman at ualberta.ca wrote: >> Jedi said, >> >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that you'll >> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is a >> bad thing. >> >> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases where >> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could argue >> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >> included products and services while I always said environments, products, >> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, is >> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it actively >> opposes it. >> >> Jedi said, >> >> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because >> we can't see. >> >> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to the >> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the part >> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified in >> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. >> >> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the NFB >> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the environment, >> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), and 2) >> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that such >> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >> blindness. >> >> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to oppose >> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it makes >> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design and >> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, which I >> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability that >> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. >> >> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't want >> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on those >> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations are >> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as well, >> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for you >> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things in a >> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that make >> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in ways >> that would make them less necessary? >> >> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal design >> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would respond >> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm interested >> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the social >> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been able >> to square these two things. >> >> Looking forward to a response when you have time. >> >> Marc >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >> Behalf Of Jedi >> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >> world adapt to us? >> >> >> Marc, >> >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >> user-friendly is a bad thing. >> >> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. >> >> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >> can't see. >> >> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. >> >> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >> from the NFB. >> >> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >> provide it, we'll help them do it. >> >> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >> to doing things visually. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >> But, >>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >> fight >>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are designed >> in >>> order to facilitate easier access? >> >>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think the >>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>> where we part company is on the issue of design. >> >>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is because >> no >>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals is >> one >>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say that >> I >>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >> currency >>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong on this. >> >>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen is >>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB argues >>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only perpetuates >>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >> average >>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >> these >>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >> oppose >>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me if >> I'm >>> wrong. >> >>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who originally >>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when they >>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with this >>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >> that >>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>> differences into consideration. >> >>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because most >>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our best >> to >>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >> >>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack adequate >>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >> attitude >>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and if >>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >> >>> Regards, >> >>> Marc >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>> Oregon mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>> world adapt to us? >> >> >>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>> heard. Thanks. >> >>> http://www.blindgal.com >> >>> -- >>> Alena Roberts >>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >> bile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >> ca >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 20:49:49 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:49:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <4A3B48E7.8040402@gatamundo.com> References: <20090619002510.27645.46806@web3.serotek.com> <4A3B48E7.8040402@gatamundo.com> Message-ID: <20090621204949.GJ12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Len, Playing devil's advocate for just a moment (my position on the issue is well-documented), the US produces more of those paper notes than most of those other industrialized countries who have identifiable by touch currencies. In fact, it produces more of them than most of those countries combined. This increases costs, massively. I think the greatest objection to changes there come from owners of money-handling machines and the desire to stack notes as can be done for cotton/linen, but can't so easily be done for polymers with raised markings. I think these costs could be offset, but I also think this requires more forethought than the average politician is capable of. It's also not going to happen in the present economy. Joseph On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 01:14:31AM -0700, Len Burns wrote: > The discussion of money below is a distortion of the issue. As you well > know, the U.S. is one of the few industrialized countries who still uses > paper notes that cannot be distinguished by touch. Yes, we all live > with this, and we survive, but the absurdity is not lost. > > I belong to neither organization for many reasons, but the biggest one > is that I call things as I see them, not by an organizations party line. > I have lived much of the philosophy that the NFB claims for its own for > most of my life and shall continue to do so. > > -Len > > Jedi wrote: >> Marc, >> >> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >> user-friendly is a bad thing. >> >> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. >> >> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >> can't see. >> >> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. >> >> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >> from the NFB. >> >> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >> provide it, we'll help them do it. >> >> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >> to doing things visually. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this >>> list. But, >>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind >>> people fight >>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are >>> designed in >>> order to facilitate easier access? >> >>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I >>> think the >>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, but >>> where we part company is on the issue of design. >> >>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is >>> because no >>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what it >>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals >>> is one >>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say >>> that I >>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >>> currency >>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me >>> if I'm >>> wrong on this. >> >>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. Who >>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically >>> seen is >>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB >>> argues >>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are the >>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the argument >>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only >>> perpetuates >>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >>> average >>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So >>> because these >>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >>> oppose >>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me >>> if I'm >>> wrong. >> >>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable itself, >>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's thinking? >>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we couldn't >>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept and >>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who >>> originally >>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used to >>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had taken >>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when >>> they >>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about nearly >>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always designed >>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with >>> this >>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know >>> that that >>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>> differences into consideration. >> >>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, it >>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because >>> most >>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our >>> best to >>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >> >>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack >>> adequate >>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >>> attitude >>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as I >>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, >>> and if >>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or why >>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >> >>> Regards, >> >>> Marc >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>> Oregon mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>> world adapt to us? >> >> >>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>> heard. Thanks. >> >>> http://www.blindgal.com >> >>> -- >>> Alena Roberts >>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> >>> >>> ca >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From clinton.waterbury at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 21:32:33 2009 From: clinton.waterbury at gmail.com (clinton waterbury) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:32:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A Tribute To Those GOing To National Convention And More On Tonight's Djd Invasion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D8BD0CD-F046-4337-90F9-1F66DEA14933@gmail.com> What's the url for the station? On Jun 21, 2009, at 11:48 AM, David Dunphy wrote: > Hello To All! > The Djd Invasion returns to your internet dial on Radio360 this > evening starting at 7 PM eastern time. > For tonight's show, we've got > New music from taylor Swift > A tribute to those who are going to the NFB convention in Detroit > Some comedy > And more... > Plus Big Dan will be co hosting on tonight's show as well. > During the show, you can contact us by email msn or aol instant > messenger at the address > live at radio360.us > or, when we're not playing songs, you can contact us on skype at > radio360usa > or by phone by dialing > 516-717-4425 > So to listen, save this email, and at 7 PM eastern, go to > http://www.radio360.us/players/playerselection.html > to be connected to tonight's show. We both hope to see you there! > Best regards, > David Dunphy, station manager of Radio360 > http://www.radio360.us > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterbury%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 21:33:58 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:33:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Alena, Have you ever crossed a street at the wrong time because you heard one of those signals from a block away? I've seen sighted and blind people do this on SW Broadway in front of the Portland State campus. If it were not a college campus where cars are used to people wandering into the street randomly, there would likely have been numerous fatalities as a result of poorly implemented signals. I would fight against such poorly designed and implemented signals. In fact, I support the notion of removing the signals installed around the Portland State campus because they are dangerous. At SW 5th and Broadway, there's a recently installed new signal that is pretty nice overall. If the city wants to replace Portland State's dangerous signals with these new ones, I'm all for it. But the city doesn't want to do that, because as far as they're concerned, the intersections are already accessible. To whom, and under what circumstances? I think you can see the problem. I'll stay out of the currency issue as it is now a moot point. Joseph On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 07:02:13PM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >I think that attitude ignores that accessibility benefits more than >the people it is originally intended to. When I cross a street that >has an audible signal I not only pay attention to the sounds from the >signal, but I also listen to my traffic. I had the priveledge of >getting O and M training. Not everyone gets the training they need. >Audible signals also help people who can see, and those who may have >low vision. Fighting against accessibility doesn't help anyone, >especially people with disabilities. I think we need to support >teaching people skills and having things be accessible to us at the >same time. > >For those of you that don't think that our money doesn't descriminate >against the blind, I respectfully disagree. Almost all other countries >in the world have money that is easily distinguishable, and we don't. >There are simple modifications that can be made to our bills to make >them distinguishable. The EU even made sure to talk to the blind >community before designing the Euro so that they made sure it would be >usable by all citizens. I shouldn't have to use a machine to tell what >denomination of money I am using because the treasury department >thinks it's too hard to change the money. > >Just some thoughts. From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 21:47:43 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 14:47:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Comparing Braille Embossers In-Reply-To: References: <4A36E360.4090304@aol.com> <4A3887D7.3000309@aol.com> <20090617110220.jhxnhzkjwo8co8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <20090621214743.GM12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> They all work in Linux. It's just a matter of knowing how to send stuff to them. Most will emboss a properly formatted BRF directly. Graphics aren't widely supported. ETC's embossers had Classic MacOS support, but I didn't see support for modern Macs. Index supports the Mac directly through their iBraille software. I don't know about other embossers. Of course, like Linux, Macs use the Common UNIX Printing System (CUPS) and you can set up an embosser much the same way you would on a Linux system. I doubt you'd be able to print to it from most applications, however, unless there's specific driver support for the Mac. Joseph On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 06:46:40AM -0600, clinton waterbury wrote: > As far as braille embossers go... Does anyone know what embossers work > on the mac and linux? From marrie12 at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 22:14:25 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:14:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] A Tribute To Those GOing To National Convention AndMore On Tonight's Djd Invasion In-Reply-To: <3D8BD0CD-F046-4337-90F9-1F66DEA14933@gmail.com> References: <3D8BD0CD-F046-4337-90F9-1F66DEA14933@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1FC747F3E3614113BA89C9E47F6A78E8@sacomputer> www.radio360.us is the url. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of clinton waterbury Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 2:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] A Tribute To Those GOing To National Convention AndMore On Tonight's Djd Invasion What's the url for the station? On Jun 21, 2009, at 11:48 AM, David Dunphy wrote: > Hello To All! > The Djd Invasion returns to your internet dial on Radio360 this > evening starting at 7 PM eastern time. > For tonight's show, we've got > New music from taylor Swift > A tribute to those who are going to the NFB convention in Detroit Some > comedy And more... > Plus Big Dan will be co hosting on tonight's show as well. > During the show, you can contact us by email msn or aol instant > messenger at the address live at radio360.us or, when we're not playing > songs, you can contact us on skype at radio360usa or by phone by > dialing > 516-717-4425 > So to listen, save this email, and at 7 PM eastern, go to > http://www.radio360.us/players/playerselection.html > to be connected to tonight's show. We both hope to see you there! > Best regards, > David Dunphy, station manager of Radio360 http://www.radio360.us > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clinton.waterb > ury%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From len at gatamundo.com Sun Jun 21 22:29:52 2009 From: len at gatamundo.com (Len Burns) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 15:29:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> <20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> Joe, I think you are giving way too much credit to these signals. How many times have you seen/heard/whatever people make unsafe crossings without such distractions? I observe this all the time, whether there happens to be an auditory signal in the neighborhood or not. I am not at risk for such a mishap for the simple reason that I use such signals as one, and only one, piece of information to decide when it is safe to cross a street. I do agree with you on the quality of many of the signals however. They can be implemented to be inoffensive, with clear safe indicators. Do you know why the better quality ones have not been used in this commuity? It is because of squabbling between blindness organizations. On one street the better quality ones were ripped out and the ones such as you describe put in their place. I in in a position to know because I know the person who fought to have it done right. I define better quality as the ones with a quiet sound indicating the location of the walk button, and spoken indicators when the signal changes as to which direction has the walk sign. This are unambiguous and not a public nuisance. -Len T. Joseph Carter wrote: > Alena, > > Have you ever crossed a street at the wrong time because you heard one > of those signals from a block away? I've seen sighted and blind people > do this on SW Broadway in front of the Portland State campus. If it > were not a college campus where cars are used to people wandering into > the street randomly, there would likely have been numerous fatalities as > a result of poorly implemented signals. > > I would fight against such poorly designed and implemented signals. In > fact, I support the notion of removing the signals installed around the > Portland State campus because they are dangerous. At SW 5th and > Broadway, there's a recently installed new signal that is pretty nice > overall. If the city wants to replace Portland State's dangerous > signals with these new ones, I'm all for it. > > But the city doesn't want to do that, because as far as they're > concerned, the intersections are already accessible. To whom, and under > what circumstances? I think you can see the problem. > > I'll stay out of the currency issue as it is now a moot point. > > Joseph > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 07:02:13PM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >> I think that attitude ignores that accessibility benefits more than >> the people it is originally intended to. When I cross a street that >> has an audible signal I not only pay attention to the sounds from the >> signal, but I also listen to my traffic. I had the priveledge of >> getting O and M training. Not everyone gets the training they need. >> Audible signals also help people who can see, and those who may have >> low vision. Fighting against accessibility doesn't help anyone, >> especially people with disabilities. I think we need to support >> teaching people skills and having things be accessible to us at the >> same time. >> >> For those of you that don't think that our money doesn't descriminate >> against the blind, I respectfully disagree. Almost all other countries >> in the world have money that is easily distinguishable, and we don't. >> There are simple modifications that can be made to our bills to make >> them distinguishable. The EU even made sure to talk to the blind >> community before designing the Euro so that they made sure it would be >> usable by all citizens. I shouldn't have to use a machine to tell what >> denomination of money I am using because the treasury department >> thinks it's too hard to change the money. >> >> Just some thoughts. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com From liz.bottner at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 22:49:30 2009 From: liz.bottner at gmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:49:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: [Nfb-announce] [bana-announce] Research Participants Needed for NUBS Evaluation Message-ID: <4a3eb8f8.060ec00a.7a28.008b@mx.google.com> I apologize if this has been posted here before, but I figured I would pass it along. Those going to convention might want to participate. Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com  Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot The Braille Authority of North America (BANA), in response to consumer requests, is conducting an evaluation of the Nemeth Uniform Braille System (NUBS) at major conferences this year including the NFB and ACB conventions, the Getting in Touch with Literacy conference, and the fall NBA meeting. NUBS is an experimental code designed to include literary, math, and scientific information, combining all three codes into one unified system. As an initial phase of this evaluation, BANA is recruiting interested Braille readers who will be attending consumer conventions this summer, to participate in one or more aspects of the evaluation. BANA is looking for a broad representation of participants--readers of various ages, with different levels of braille reading experience, and both casual and professional users of braille. At the conventions, selected individuals will take part in sessions examining the experimental code. Some individuals will be assigned to a group task, and others to a half-hour individual task. If an individual is not selected for the convention tasks, he or she will be welcome to participate in a later survey. If you are interested in being considered as a participant in this phase, please complete the online survey at www.brailleauthority.org/nubssurv.html. From all of the responses received BANA will create participant groups of similar size. If you are interested in attending sessions this fall at either Getting in Touch with Literacy or the fall NBA conference, watch for an announcement from BANA later this summer with information on how to volunteer. _______________________________________________ Nfb-announce mailing list Nfb-announce at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfb-announce_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Nfb-announce: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfb-announce_nfbnet.org/liz.bottner%40 gmail.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Jun 21 22:50:41 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 17:50:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] A Tribute To Those GOing To National Convention AndMore On Tonight's Djd Invasion References: <3D8BD0CD-F046-4337-90F9-1F66DEA14933@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4339903A1C0C49B69DA2170985E06803@thedjdinvasion> It's http://www.radio360.us/players/playerselection.html and the tribute will occur in the first hour. ***** If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and more! To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at http://www.radio360.us Follow us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa or add us to your MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! From LPovinelli at aol.com Mon Jun 22 00:09:49 2009 From: LPovinelli at aol.com (by way of David Andrews ) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:09:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Room or roommate needed for NFB convention in Detroit - Please circulate! Message-ID: Roommate or room request for NFB convention. This fellow just found us last week at the 2nd American Bar Association Conference on the Employment of Lawyers with Disabilities. Please let Brian know if you are able to help out! From: jbjones1978 at hotmail.com I am looking for someone willing to allow me to stay in their room (share costs of course), or if someone is canceling their reservation, I will be happy to take over their reservation. I have made my airplane reservations and will be in Detroit, July 2 through 9. I really do not have specific requirements as far as a roommate goes. Ideally, I just hope that they are not a loud snorer or have to get up frequently due to sleeping problems that I have nightly. If someone would be interested in me rooming with them, my contact information is jbjones1978 at hotmail.com and 662-801-5033. I will look forward to seeing you there. Best regards, Brian Jones From newmanrl at cox.net Mon Jun 22 00:29:19 2009 From: newmanrl at cox.net (Robert Newman) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:29:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Last_Notice-_NFB_Writers=92_Division_2009?= =?iso-8859-1?q?__Workshop_and_Annual_Meeting?= Message-ID: Last Notice- NFB Writers' Division 2009 Workshop and Annual Meeting The 2009 National convention is coming very, very soon. The Writers' Division is providing this final notice of our two events and wish to invite you to attend. Our 2009 work shop is on Friday, July 03, 2009. Time- 1:00 - 3:00 pm Cost- $5.00 Location- Room 6405, 60th floor Program- Visit with a prize winning author, Lev Raphael. Lev will be sharing his writer's story: how he got started; what and who inspired him; what's kept him going; how he works; what publishing means to him; and why he writes. Our 2009 annual division meeting is Sunday, July 05, 2009. Time- 1:00 - 4:00 pm Location- Renoir Room, Level 4 Program- special guest Deborah Kent Stein, leader within the NFB, author of over 100 books for children and young adults; our business meeting, elections and more. See you all there! Robert Leslie Newman -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Last notice.rtf Type: application/rtf Size: 6615 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kconstan at student.umass.edu Mon Jun 22 00:42:46 2009 From: kconstan at student.umass.edu (Kristina Constant) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:42:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] first convention Message-ID: <49C306DCC9F84E81B637D495B6E72CAA@user0b70da9c0d> Dear Students, My name is Kristina Constant and I am attending my first ever national convention. It is quite daunting just reading the agenda does anyone have any tips on not getting overwhelmed by reading the agenda ahead of time and discovering a way to carve out a schedule? Thanks Kristina From kconstan at student.umass.edu Mon Jun 22 00:55:45 2009 From: kconstan at student.umass.edu (Kristina Constant) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:55:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Register for the NABS Business Meeting References: <2049453454CC4409BB5A1FAFB38C277A@Rufus> Message-ID: Hi, I was able to access this website and fill out the form but when I hit on continue it brought me to a website that was not available. Just thought you should know so if there is a problem with the website it can be fixed in time for people can register for convention. Thanks Kristina Constant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'Arizona Students'" ; "'California Students'" ; "'Colorado Center'" ; "'Colorado Students'" ; "'Florida Students'" ; "'Illinois Students'" ; "'Kansas Students'" ; "'Kentucky Students'" ; "'Louisiana Students'" ; "'Michigan'" ; "'Minnesota Students'" ; "'Missouri'" ; "'National'" ; "'Nebraska'" ; "'New Hampshire Students'" ; "'New Jersey Students'" ; "'North Carolina Students'" ; "'Ohio'" ; "'Pennsylvania'" ; "'Presidents'" ; "'TABS Students'" ; "'Tennessee Students'" ; "'Utah Students'" ; "'Virginia Students'" Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:39 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Register for the NABS Business Meeting > Dear all, > > Please register online for the NABS business meeting. Fill out the form > located at the link below. Then, on the evening of Saturday, July 4, > please > get into the express registration line and let the NABS representative > know > that you have already registered online. They will have a list of > registered participants, and all you will need to do is pay your > five-dollar > registration fee. There will be no need to spend time providing your > address and other contact information. > > This form will also serve as your membership registration to the student > division. The contact information you provide will only be shared with > your > state student division contact. > > Please note that this registration form is not the same as the NFB > convention registration form. > > Also, note that if you do not register online, you are strongly encouraged > to Braille out your contact information on an index card so that a NABS > representative can more easily add your data to the directory after > convention. > > If you have never attended a NABS meeting, the lines can be a nightmare. > This is a very positive problem but one, we are sure, you could do > without. > Please help NABS more easily administer the registration process by > registering in advance. > > Link: > > http://www.nabslink.org/members/membership_registration.shtml > > Joe Orozco > > "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the > crowd."--Max Lucado > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 4173 (20090620) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kconstan%40student.umass.edu > From jsorozco at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 01:35:35 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:35:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Register for the NABS Business Meeting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I have received your specific registration as well as that of everyone else who's registered thus far. After you click Submit you should be redirected back to the NABSLink site following a brief Thank You page, but I will check into why this is not occurring. Anyone else with technical difficulties please let me know as I am trying to fix these before I turn the web site over to my successor. Thanks. Joe Orozco "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the crowd."--Max Lucado -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kristina Constant Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 8:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Register for the NABS Business Meeting Hi, I was able to access this website and fill out the form but when I hit on continue it brought me to a website that was not available. Just thought you should know so if there is a problem with the website it can be fixed in time for people can register for convention. Thanks Kristina Constant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'Arizona Students'" ; "'California Students'" ; "'Colorado Center'" ; "'Colorado Students'" ; "'Florida Students'" ; "'Illinois Students'" ; "'Kansas Students'" ; "'Kentucky Students'" ; "'Louisiana Students'" ; "'Michigan'" ; "'Minnesota Students'" ; "'Missouri'" ; "'National'" ; "'Nebraska'" ; "'New Hampshire Students'" ; "'New Jersey Students'" ; "'North Carolina Students'" ; "'Ohio'" ; "'Pennsylvania'" ; "'Presidents'" ; "'TABS Students'" ; "'Tennessee Students'" ; "'Utah Students'" ; "'Virginia Students'" Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:39 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Register for the NABS Business Meeting > Dear all, > > Please register online for the NABS business meeting. Fill out the > form located at the link below. Then, on the evening of Saturday, > July 4, please get into the express registration line and let the NABS > representative know that you have already registered online. They > will have a list of registered participants, and all you will need to > do is pay your five-dollar registration fee. There will be no need to > spend time providing your address and other contact information. > > This form will also serve as your membership registration to the > student division. The contact information you provide will only be > shared with your state student division contact. > > Please note that this registration form is not the same as the NFB > convention registration form. > > Also, note that if you do not register online, you are strongly > encouraged to Braille out your contact information on an index card so > that a NABS representative can more easily add your data to the > directory after convention. > > If you have never attended a NABS meeting, the lines can be a nightmare. > This is a very positive problem but one, we are sure, you could do > without. > Please help NABS more easily administer the registration process by > registering in advance. > > Link: > > http://www.nabslink.org/members/membership_registration.shtml > > Joe Orozco > > "A man who wants to lead the orchestra must turn his back on the > crowd."--Max Lucado > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4173 (20090620) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kconstan%40stu > dent.umass.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco %40gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4174 (20090620) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4174 (20090620) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 01:38:28 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 18:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] first convention Message-ID: <787171.4558.qm@web65703.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Kristina, I am also attending my first convention. There is indead alot of stuff on the agenda. What I did to make the agenda less daunting was to copy and paste it into a Microsoft Word document, and then I deleted everything that I knew I did not want to attend. It turns out that that whole agenda can be whittled down to 4-6 relevant and interesting things per day. For me, there were two challenges. The first being choosing between two conflicting events, and the second being choosing between attending a serious event (such as a seminar) vs. a fun event (dance, play, recreation). I think I had a harder time choosing to participate in the fun events because, to me, this convention may be a once in a lifetime oppertunity, theirfore, I feel I should spend my time learning as much as possible. I bet as the convention proceeds, I will find myself wanting to take a break from all the seriousness, and I will probably want to attend a fun event. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Sun, 6/21/09, Kristina Constant wrote: From: Kristina Constant Subject: [nabs-l] first convention To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 6:42 PM Dear Students,  My name is Kristina Constant and I am attending my first ever national convention.  It is quite daunting just reading the agenda does anyone have any tips on not getting overwhelmed by reading the agenda ahead of time and discovering a way to carve out a schedule?  Thanks Kristina _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From liz.bottner at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 02:14:38 2009 From: liz.bottner at gmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:14:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Register for the NABS Business Meeting In-Reply-To: References: <2049453454CC4409BB5A1FAFB38C277A@Rufus> Message-ID: <4a3ee8e9.15045a0a.6a1b.ffff9240@mx.google.com> Hi, I registered at the link just fine. Perhaps try again? Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com  Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot From alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 02:30:38 2009 From: alena.roberts2282 at gmail.com (alena roberts) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:30:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> <20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> Message-ID: <3af83dbb0906211930l257ea3crad7b14da878dd1ea@mail.gmail.com> I want to respond to a couple of things. I think we're really off topic from where we started with, but that's okay. I think that conversation is what I wanted, and all of you have given that to me. I have never crossed because I heard an audible signal a block away. My hearing knows that the sound isn't loud enough, so I ignore it, I also always listen to my traffic and the audible signal. I agree with Len that the quiter signals that talk to you are better than the chirpers, but in my opinion having something is better than nothing. Before I moved to Corvallis, I had to cross at inersections that were unsafe for me because they wre hard to read. In those cases, audible signals would have been very helpful. As far as the currency goes, I don't think it matters how many american dollars are made vs. some other countries currency. There are ways to transform the bills without using tactile markings, and if the $1 wasn't changed, most vending machines wouldn't have to be changed. Money management is such a vital skill in my opinion, and I think that I should have the right to use cash if I want to. I choose not to because I can't distinguish it on my own, I don't have an expensive machine that will tell me what denomination I have, and I am trusting sighted people to be honest with me. Those are just some thoughts. -- Alena Roberts Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ From iamantonio at cox.net Mon Jun 22 02:38:03 2009 From: iamantonio at cox.net (Antonio M. Guimaraes) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:38:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] first convention References: <49C306DCC9F84E81B637D495B6E72CAA@user0b70da9c0d> Message-ID: <68374D5EB38A4E7DBCB7932FEAA617A3@userf9b4fa60eb> Kristina, The best convention I ever had was very much unplanned until I got to the hotel. I would use my braille agenda the day before, and through out the day to see what might be happening in the immediate future that I wanted to get to. I guess I also did find the things I felt I must attend, and block those times to make sure I was there. I went through my week in spontanious pursuit, and it was really the best thing I could ever do. This has been my experience, and I wish I could still afford to go off the cuff like that. I have responsibilities with my work at National Braille Press, the commitments with my state affiliate, the friends I've made in the past, and all, and I find it difficult if not impossible not to plan much of my time before I reach the hotel. If you think you can continuously find interesting things to do , and not be lost in a huge hotel, I would not wory too much about too many details. Enjoy the convention, and certainly use the agenda to your advantage, but try and not structure your time, and limit yourself to your prepared plans for now is my advice. My best convention experience was one year in atlanta, and even how to get from the airport to the hotel was total surprise. I opened a monitor article in the airplane and saw that one could take public transportation from the airport to the hotel, and that is what I did. If you get to the hotel early enough, or even any time late at night is good, learn where things are, stairs and elevators, dog releaf areas, meeting rooms, and everything else you can or need to know about the building. Oh, learn where the stairs are located: it might save you time durring elevator jams. Antonio Guimaraes If an infinite number of rednecks riding in an infinite number of pickup trucks fire an infinite number of shotgun rounds at an infinite number of highway signs, they will eventually produce all the world's great literary works in Braille. Shop online and support the NFB of RI at no additional cost to you. http://www.givebackamerica.com/charity.php?b=169 Givebackamerica.org, America's Online Charity Shopping Mall ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kristina Constant" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 8:42 PM Subject: [nabs-l] first convention > Dear Students, My name is Kristina Constant and I am attending my first > ever national convention. It is quite daunting just reading the agenda > does anyone have any tips on not getting overwhelmed by reading the agenda > ahead of time and discovering a way to carve out a schedule? Thanks > Kristina > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/iamantonio%40cox.net From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 03:20:25 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:20:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] first convention References: <49C306DCC9F84E81B637D495B6E72CAA@user0b70da9c0d> Message-ID: <14A2C4DAC78240AFBFF05953109BA82F@thedjdinvasion> I'm going for the first time too. What I've been told is a good thing to do is to look at the various items, and find ones that really grab you and sound really interesting, and try to attend as many of those as possible. No one gets to go to everything, and some people have to run to one thing then go to another. Come to the karaoke event, that's a plug since I'll be helping to run it, but anyway. There are a lot of cool things to do, so just look at what interests you the most. ***** If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and more! To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at http://www.radio360.us Follow us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa or add us to your MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 04:21:26 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:21:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> <20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> Message-ID: <20090622042126.GN12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Len, I know it happens because of the signals because I've made the error myself. I thought I heard the signal for this block, and it was for the adjacent one, echoing off the building. The person I was walking with admits to making the same mistake, more than once, listening to the sound but not looking. I've observed others doing it at two specific intersections, frequently. Joseph On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 03:29:52PM -0700, Len Burns wrote: > Joe, > > I think you are giving way too much credit to these signals. How many > times have you seen/heard/whatever people make unsafe crossings without > such distractions? I observe this all the time, whether there happens > to be an auditory signal in the neighborhood or not. > > I am not at risk for such a mishap for the simple reason that I use such > signals as one, and only one, piece of information to decide when it is > safe to cross a street. > > I do agree with you on the quality of many of the signals however. They > can be implemented to be inoffensive, with clear safe indicators. Do > you know why the better quality ones have not been used in this > commuity? It is because of squabbling between blindness organizations. > On one street the better quality ones were ripped out and the ones such > as you describe put in their place. I in in a position to know because I > know the person who fought to have it done right. I define better > quality as the ones with a quiet sound indicating the location of the > walk button, and spoken indicators when the signal changes as to which > direction has the walk sign. This are unambiguous and not a public > nuisance. > > -Len > > T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Alena, >> >> Have you ever crossed a street at the wrong time because you heard one >> of those signals from a block away? I've seen sighted and blind people >> do this on SW Broadway in front of the Portland State campus. If it >> were not a college campus where cars are used to people wandering into >> the street randomly, there would likely have been numerous fatalities >> as a result of poorly implemented signals. >> >> I would fight against such poorly designed and implemented signals. In >> fact, I support the notion of removing the signals installed around the >> Portland State campus because they are dangerous. At SW 5th and >> Broadway, there's a recently installed new signal that is pretty nice >> overall. If the city wants to replace Portland State's dangerous >> signals with these new ones, I'm all for it. >> >> But the city doesn't want to do that, because as far as they're >> concerned, the intersections are already accessible. To whom, and >> under what circumstances? I think you can see the problem. >> >> I'll stay out of the currency issue as it is now a moot point. >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 07:02:13PM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >>> I think that attitude ignores that accessibility benefits more than >>> the people it is originally intended to. When I cross a street that >>> has an audible signal I not only pay attention to the sounds from the >>> signal, but I also listen to my traffic. I had the priveledge of >>> getting O and M training. Not everyone gets the training they need. >>> Audible signals also help people who can see, and those who may have >>> low vision. Fighting against accessibility doesn't help anyone, >>> especially people with disabilities. I think we need to support >>> teaching people skills and having things be accessible to us at the >>> same time. >>> >>> For those of you that don't think that our money doesn't descriminate >>> against the blind, I respectfully disagree. Almost all other countries >>> in the world have money that is easily distinguishable, and we don't. >>> There are simple modifications that can be made to our bills to make >>> them distinguishable. The EU even made sure to talk to the blind >>> community before designing the Euro so that they made sure it would be >>> usable by all citizens. I shouldn't have to use a machine to tell what >>> denomination of money I am using because the treasury department >>> thinks it's too hard to change the money. >>> >>> Just some thoughts. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 04:30:56 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:30:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> <20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> Message-ID: <20090622043056.GO12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Len, Oh, the message was longer than I read, sorry. The modern signals are much better and safer all around. They were designed in response to criticisms like the ones I have made of these older models. The thing is, once the older ones get installed, the intersection is "accessible" to sighted minds, even if they're actually more dangerous than ever. Essentially, these are the first signals installed, usually around places blind people are likely to go. Portland State had Project Braille until this year when its funding was cut. Other places put them around vocational rehabilitation programs that serve the blind, independent living centers, and other places you're likely to find blind people. The assumption here is that you have to make those places accessible because blind people go there. Didn't you know that blind people don't go anywhere else? That's why I said I was insulted. Joseph On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 03:29:52PM -0700, Len Burns wrote: > Joe, > > I think you are giving way too much credit to these signals. How many > times have you seen/heard/whatever people make unsafe crossings without > such distractions? I observe this all the time, whether there happens > to be an auditory signal in the neighborhood or not. > > I am not at risk for such a mishap for the simple reason that I use such > signals as one, and only one, piece of information to decide when it is > safe to cross a street. > > I do agree with you on the quality of many of the signals however. They > can be implemented to be inoffensive, with clear safe indicators. Do > you know why the better quality ones have not been used in this > commuity? It is because of squabbling between blindness organizations. > On one street the better quality ones were ripped out and the ones such > as you describe put in their place. I in in a position to know because I > know the person who fought to have it done right. I define better > quality as the ones with a quiet sound indicating the location of the > walk button, and spoken indicators when the signal changes as to which > direction has the walk sign. This are unambiguous and not a public > nuisance. > > -Len > > T. Joseph Carter wrote: >> Alena, >> >> Have you ever crossed a street at the wrong time because you heard one >> of those signals from a block away? I've seen sighted and blind people >> do this on SW Broadway in front of the Portland State campus. If it >> were not a college campus where cars are used to people wandering into >> the street randomly, there would likely have been numerous fatalities >> as a result of poorly implemented signals. >> >> I would fight against such poorly designed and implemented signals. In >> fact, I support the notion of removing the signals installed around the >> Portland State campus because they are dangerous. At SW 5th and >> Broadway, there's a recently installed new signal that is pretty nice >> overall. If the city wants to replace Portland State's dangerous >> signals with these new ones, I'm all for it. >> >> But the city doesn't want to do that, because as far as they're >> concerned, the intersections are already accessible. To whom, and >> under what circumstances? I think you can see the problem. >> >> I'll stay out of the currency issue as it is now a moot point. >> >> Joseph >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 07:02:13PM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >>> I think that attitude ignores that accessibility benefits more than >>> the people it is originally intended to. When I cross a street that >>> has an audible signal I not only pay attention to the sounds from the >>> signal, but I also listen to my traffic. I had the priveledge of >>> getting O and M training. Not everyone gets the training they need. >>> Audible signals also help people who can see, and those who may have >>> low vision. Fighting against accessibility doesn't help anyone, >>> especially people with disabilities. I think we need to support >>> teaching people skills and having things be accessible to us at the >>> same time. >>> >>> For those of you that don't think that our money doesn't descriminate >>> against the blind, I respectfully disagree. Almost all other countries >>> in the world have money that is easily distinguishable, and we don't. >>> There are simple modifications that can be made to our bills to make >>> them distinguishable. The EU even made sure to talk to the blind >>> community before designing the Euro so that they made sure it would be >>> usable by all citizens. I shouldn't have to use a machine to tell what >>> denomination of money I am using because the treasury department >>> thinks it's too hard to change the money. >>> >>> Just some thoughts. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/len%40gatamundo.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 04:49:25 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:49:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <3af83dbb0906211930l257ea3crad7b14da878dd1ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com> <00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene> <3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com> <20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> <4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com> <3af83dbb0906211930l257ea3crad7b14da878dd1ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090622044925.GP12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Alena, I promise at these two intersections, it IS loud enough in the right conditions. The block is really short, less than 100 yards, and there's a tall building that the sound bounces off of. When the wind is right, it sounds like the sound's in a different spot than it is, and it's got enough volume to be confused easily. I actually tried to come up with a way to change all bills but the dollar, and I couldn't find a good way to do it. Neither the ACB nor the NFB nor the Treasury Department came up with a good way to do it either, but all of them concluded that changes should be made to all but the dollar. I say change the dollar, but change it last. Produce the $100 bill first at the current size (or a fraction longer), and decrease the length of the bills from there. This allows current cash registers to be used, but causes money handling machines to need to be changed. That's acceptable, provided that times and tax breaks equating the cost of retrofitting over time are provided to offset the cost to the private sector. The $20 and $1 should be last, since the $20 affects the majority of ATMs and the $1 affects vending machines. Option #2 is to stop printing the $1 bill. The $1 coin would be much easier for vending machines to support, and some already do. Ultimately, we don't know what the Treasury Department will ultimately do. Right now they're considering options, including electronic bill identifiers. I think a barcode printed to be read with a specific wavelength of light makes the most sense for this, but again it's a change to the currency. Granted, it's a change that makes readers cost like $30, but it's still a change. It also helps deter counterfeiters and gives the blind a way to detect a counterfeit bill other than by it not feeling right (the most common means of detecting a forgery today..) This one's a settled issue in my mind. The ACB won, and I'm not sorry they did. I think they took one hell of a risk in our name to do it. That's water under the bridge. We continued to fight against the ACB on this one beyond a point where our efforts could only cause what we most feared, in my opinion. But that too is water under the bridge. Taxpayers are going to foot the bill for this one, and that is settled. Our job now is to make sure they get what they're paying for, in my opinion. Joseph On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 07:30:38PM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >I want to respond to a couple of things. I think we're really off >topic from where we started with, but that's okay. I think that >conversation is what I wanted, and all of you have given that to me. > >I have never crossed because I heard an audible signal a block away. >My hearing knows that the sound isn't loud enough, so I ignore it, I >also always listen to my traffic and the audible signal. I agree with >Len that the quiter signals that talk to you are better than the >chirpers, but in my opinion having something is better than nothing. >Before I moved to Corvallis, I had to cross at inersections that were >unsafe for me because they wre hard to read. In those cases, audible >signals would have been very helpful. > >As far as the currency goes, I don't think it matters how many >american dollars are made vs. some other countries currency. There are >ways to transform the bills without using tactile markings, and if the >$1 wasn't changed, most vending machines wouldn't have to be changed. >Money management is such a vital skill in my opinion, and I think that >I should have the right to use cash if I want to. I choose not to >because I can't distinguish it on my own, I don't have an expensive >machine that will tell me what denomination I have, and I am trusting >sighted people to be honest with me. > >Those are just some thoughts. > >-- >Alena Roberts >Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 05:05:35 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:05:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain In-Reply-To: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090622050535.GS12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Jim, Sorry for the thread necromancy... If you're going to Detroit this year, look me up. I had to develop some custom cane techniques while I was in Colorado, and I till use them sometimes when the weather and terrain call for them. Start learning to use that cane in both hands, and invest in a good soft ice pack while you're learning. It sounds like you're using a heavier graphite/aluminum golf grip cane. I think you mentioned elsewhere that it folds. I'll bet anything that if you're used to moving around without a cane, at speed, it's too short for you. Unfortunately, the Independence Market is clearing out what stock it has of 50/50 canes--they had a few design flaws, and the design was never improved. That means your choices for NFB canes are rigid (which can take creativity to figure out what to do with it when you're not using it), or the telescopic models. The latter don't take a whole lot of abuse, and I don't recommend them for a heavy-handed cane user. I use mostly the rigid model, even though you won't find a much lighter hand than I use. Joseph On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 12:16:38PM -0700, Jim Reed wrote: >Hey all, >The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side,  on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the side of the cane > >Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum  that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole vault. After > the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. > >I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. > >Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated > >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From graduate56 at juno.com Mon Jun 22 07:41:16 2009 From: graduate56 at juno.com (Melissa Green) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:41:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? References: <20090619104255.14007.58237@web1.serotek.com> Message-ID: <4EFA8DE811F3470D9F6C71C49EE89B1F@melissa> Arielle, That is a really good point. Thanks for highlighting the distenctions. I must say though that I don't believe we should have everything adapted for us. You know some people want braille everywhere, and that just isn't feasible. That is why I try to support the things that do put braille on their products. Melissa Green Limitations live only in our minds. But if we use our imaginations, our possibilities become limitless ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? > Hi all, > > If the U.S. treasury decided on its own to make money identifiable by > touch, I don't think anyone, NFB or not, would complain. I think what > aroused the controversy is whether or not we should sue the treasury > and call the current currency discriminatory, not whether or not we > should have accessible money. This is an important distinction. > > Arielle > > On 6/19/09, Jedi wrote: >> well, the NFB isn't against universal design as a principle. i think >> it's a matter of supporting design that doesn't support the >> perpetuation of stereotypes and the like. >> >> Respectfully, >> Kedi >> Original message: >>> Jedi said, >> >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >>> you'll >>> ever hear anyone say that making products and services user-friendly is >>> a >>> bad thing. >> >>> That is true I think. At least, it is harder for me to think of cases >>> where >>> I've heard of NFB opposition in these instances. Though, one could >>> argue >>> that currency is akin to a product, not the same, just an analogous >>> instance. Maybe I'll come back to that. But I noticed that you only >>> included products and services while I always said environments, >>> products, >>> and services, and my main argument, the one that interests me the most, >>> is >>> about environments. So while the NFB may support universal design of >>> products and services, it does not support universal design of the built >>> environment. In some cases, not only does it not support it, it >>> actively >>> opposes it. >> >>> Jedi said, >> >>> The NFB does believe that overmodification of the environment both comes >>> from and reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited >>> because >>> we can't see. >> >>> Based on this statement, I think you would agree that the NFB does not >>> believe in universal design of the environment. What you call >>> over-modification many would call universal design. Also based on that >>> statement, I take it that the main reason for this opposition is due to >>> the >>> negative impression that comes from these modifications, which is what I >>> suggested was the reason in my earlier post. I have to leave out the >>> part >>> in your assertion that modifications not only perpetuate, but stem from >>> misconceptions because I believe, in most cases, they can be justified >>> in >>> terms of correcting a flaw in the original design, and therefore don't >>> necessarily come from misconceptions, though they may reinforce them. >> >>> So I'm left thinking that my original two claims were correct: 1) the >>> NFB >>> opposes, either passively or actively, universal design of the >>> environment, >>> unless such adaptations are taken to be necessary (e.g., quiet cars), >>> and >>> 2) >>> the main, if not only, reason for this opposition is the belief that >>> such >>> modifications will perpetuate/reinforce negative misconceptions about >>> blindness. >> >>> My position was, and still is, that it doesn't make a lot of sense to >>> oppose >>> something because others are likely to misunderstand it. I think it >>> makes >>> more sense to try to educate people about the need for universal design >>> and >>> how a lack of universal design only serves to construct disability. And >>> actually, given the notion that disability is socially constructed, >>> which >>> I >>> recall you accepted, I'm a little surprised that you would oppose doing >>> everything possible to eliminate environmental barriers that create >>> disabilities. It's a belief in the social construction of disability >>> that >>> leads me to disagree with the NFB on this very point. >> >>> I could go into the audible signals and currency, but I really didn't >>> want >>> to get into that debate. And I don't think anything you've said on >>> those >>> issues refutes numbers 1 and 2 above; I think what you've said in fact >>> supports those claims. In all three examples you mentioned (audible >>> signals, currency, and DVS), you talk about need/necessity. Adaptations >>> are >>> only justified if they are absolutely necessary, which is exactly what I >>> suggested. What I would challenge, and I believe Alena questions as >>> well, >>> is what counts as necessary. Something that may not be necessary for >>> you >>> might be necessary for someone with less training, intelligence, health, >>> youth, supports, and the list goes on and on. Why not construct things >>> in >>> a >>> manner that requires less of these things? It's great if you have the >>> training, intelligence, health, etc, but why design things in ways that >>> make >>> these necessary, and more importantly, why oppose redesigning things in >>> ways >>> that would make them less necessary? >> >>> I'm primarily interested in why we should not advocate for universal >>> design >>> of the environment simply because some people may misinterpret this as a >>> sign of blind people's weakness. I also wonder about how you would >>> respond >>> to the stuff about necessity, and closely related to that , I'm >>> interested >>> in how you square opposition of universal design with a belief in the >>> social >>> construction of disability, because I, and others I know, haven't been >>> able >>> to square these two things. >> >>> Looking forward to a response when you have time. >> >>> Marc >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>> Behalf Of Jedi >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 6:25 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the >>> world adapt to us? >> >> >>> Marc, >> >>> I don't think that the NfB is against universal design. I doubt that >>> you'll ever hear anyone say that making products and services >>> user-friendly is a bad thing. >> >>> I also think you're right about the audio signals and accessible >>> currency issues. they are nuanced and complicated. but since you asked, >>> I'll give you and the rest of the list the down and dirty of it all. >> >>> With audio signals, the NFB never exactly opposed them altogether. >>> Instead, the NFB said that audio signals need to be put where the blind >>> think they're necessary based on our collective experience, our honest >>> needs, and with the understanding that many street intersections can be >>> accomplished by the average blind person given the right opportunity >>> for good training. The NFB is not in support of audio signals on every >>> corner for two reasons. first, they would drown out necessary >>> environmental cues that we can already hear. Second, they're obnoxious >>> when placed on block after block. If you don't believe me, visit a few >>> neighborhoods in Seattle where it's been done. Yes, the NFB does >>> believe that overmodification of the environment both comes from and >>> reinforces the idea that blind people are severely limited because we >>> can't see. >> >>> As for accessible currency, we never said no to that either. We were >>> frustrated with the ACB because, for good or ill, the ACB claimed that >>> non-accessible currency discriminates against the blind. Furthermore, >>> we've been using currency without accessible markings for a long time. >>> For most of us, getting a sighted person's help or using a bill >>> identifier of some kind has been no big deal. If the treasury were >>> outfitting the bills anyway, then why not include accessibility >>> features? but because the ACB said that the money should be totally >>> reoutfitted because the blind are being discriminated against was our >>> big deal. So now, the government has to redo all the bills, [probably >>> all the vending machines and the like, and the list goes on. >> >>> In general, the NFB favors technology that gives us access but for all >>> the right reasons. If sighted people are the ones determining what >>> access looks like, they're likely to make the wrong things accessible >>> based on lack of education. For example, they'll make sidewalk signals >>> chirp but may not think about the need for accessible touch screens. >>> That kind of thing. So really, what it comes down to is that >>> accessibility discussions need to be intelligent and based on real >>> need, not stereotypes. If you do that, I doubt you'll get much argument >>> from the NFB. >> >>> there are gray areas like DVS. Again, we never said no to that, either. >>> We just didn't think it was terribly necessary to force the issue >>> except where we really need the information. But, if people wanted to >>> provide it, we'll help them do it. >> >>> As for me personally, I feel it's appropriate to ask for help if it's >>> more efficient than whatever techniques are available to me or if I >>> just can't do it at all for some reason. Otherwise, I feel it's my >>> responsibility to adapt to the world as is. What annoys me is when >>> sighted people presume to know when my techniques are inefficient or >>> just not able to do the task simply because they can see and are used >>> to doing things visually. >> >>> Respectfully Submitted >>> Original message: >>>> I was actually planning to ask a similar question myself on this list. >>> But, >>>> for me, the question is as follows: to what extent should blind people >>> fight >>>> for changes to the way environments, products, and services are >>>> designed >>> in >>>> order to facilitate easier access? >> >>>> I believe strongly in a lot of the tenants of NFB philosophy. I think >>>> the >>>> organization generally has a progressive attitude towards blindness, >>>> but >>>> where we part company is on the issue of design. >> >>>> If I'm correct, the NFB generally opposes alterations to the built >>>> environment unless absolutely necessary. So even the NFB says it is >>>> appropriate to fight so that silent cars make noise, and this is >>>> because >>> no >>>> amount of training is going to completely eliminate the danger of quiet >>>> cars. In general, though, the NFB promotes better training over what >>>> it >>>> perceives as unnecessary changes to the environment. Audible signals >>>> is >>> one >>>> example, and I think accessible currency is yet another. Let me say >>>> that >>> I >>>> know the reasons for the stances on audible signals and accessible >>> currency >>>> are more nuanced, but, as a generalization, it seems to me that the NFB >>>> favours training over alterations that aren't necessary. Correct me if >>> I'm >>>> wrong on this. >> >>>> So the question is then, why oppose alterations to the environment. >>>> Who >>>> does it hurt when we fight to have environments, products, and services >>>> designed with everyone in mind? And the answer that I've typically seen >>>> is >>>> that it hurts blind people. If I understand the position, the NFB >>>> argues >>>> that misconceptions and myths about the abilities of blind people are >>>> the >>>> main barriers we face, and I won't argue with that, but then the >>>> argument >>>> goes on to suggest that making changes to the environment only >>>> perpetuates >>>> these misconceptions and myths. Altering the environment makes the >>> average >>>> sighted Joe six pack think that we all need special treatment, we're >>>> incapable of doing things like everyone else, etc etc etc. So because >>> these >>>> adaptations/alterations actually do damage to us, it is necessary to >>> oppose >>>> them. This is my understanding of the opposition. Again, correct me >>>> if >>> I'm >>>> wrong. >> >>>> Now, let's suppose that it's true that such alterations perpetuate >>>> misconceptions and prejudice, which I think is actually debatable >>>> itself, >>>> but even if true, don't we see the flaw in the sighted person's >>>> thinking? >>>> The reason we should push for audible signals is not because we >>>> couldn't >>>> possibly cross the street without them, it's not because we're inept >>>> and >>>> can't do things like everyone else, it's because the people who >>>> originally >>>> designed the thing called a controlled intersection screwed up. They >>>> designed it on the assumption that sight would be the main sense used >>>> to >>>> determine when the light has changed. Well that was a serious error in >>>> design. Both the sense of hearing and the sense of touch can also be >>>> employed to detect when the light changes if only the designers had >>>> taken >>>> into consideration these alternative ways of gaining information when >>>> they >>>> originally designed it. A very similar argument can be made about >>>> nearly >>>> every environment, product, and service. They are almost always >>>> designed >>>> based on the assumption that only one kind of body will interact with >>>> this >>>> environment, use this product, and receive this service. We know that >>> that >>>> is a bad assumption. People come with an innumerable set of differing >>>> abilities, and design should, as much as possible, try to take these >>>> differences into consideration. >> >>>> So even if sighted people do misinterpret changes to the environment, >>>> it >>>> strikes me as odd that we should put up with bad designs just because >>>> most >>>> people interpret things wrongly. Instead, we should push for universal >>>> design of environments, products, and services, and we should do our >>>> best >>> to >>>> educate those who would misunderstand these alterations. >> >>>> Let me say pre-emptively that I absolutely support the availability of >>>> really good rehabilitation training services. We completely lack >>>> adequate >>>> rehab services up here in Canada, and I think the NFB has the right >>> attitude >>>> when it comes to the blind teaching the blind. Nothing I say should be >>>> interpreted as denying the need for excellent blindness skills. But as >>>> I >>>> said, I very much disagree with the NFB stance on universal design, and >>>> if >>>> someone wants to show me where I've mischaracterized the position, or >>>> why >>>> the position ought to be supported, I would really appreciate that. >> >>>> Regards, >> >>>> Marc >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On >>>> Behalf Of alena roberts >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:44 AM >>>> To: nabs; National Association of Blind Students mailing list; NFB of >>>> Oregon mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the >>>> world adapt to us? >> >> >>>> Should the world adapt to the blind, or should we adapt to the world? >>>> This is the question I posed in my blog today. I believe that it >>>> should be both. People with disabilities need to be given tools, but >>>> we also have the right to participate in society which may mean >>>> accomidating our needs. I would really like to hear other people's >>>> opinions about this topic. Please visit my blog and let your voice be >>>> heard. Thanks. >> >>>> http://www.blindgal.com >> >>>> -- >>>> Alena Roberts >>>> Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>>> ca >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo >>> bile.net >> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman%40ualberta. >>> ca >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com > ____________________________________________________________ Find information on Technical Schools and advance your career. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTOvBUADdbuJMObkR7LJDMv4yAGeLIlkvbGbqXCaO7AIGpMvgdQBk0/ From graduate56 at juno.com Mon Jun 22 07:42:54 2009 From: graduate56 at juno.com (Melissa Green) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:42:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education References: <00b401c9eed7$de0049f0$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <0D081C4DF9B843BEA2D9C3277FC3C4D3@melissa> I believe that both schools for the blind and public school have their place. I went to public school in Nj. However, I also attended camps for the blind and various other summer programs as well. I won't say that I wouldn't change anything. That would be untrue. I will say that I am glad that the right to choice is available. Parents can have their children attend both a public school and the blind school, or just choose one or the other. Its not like when I was growing up. The schools that were supposed to be for blind children were usually very quiet and the books would be old and out of date, and or every blind person went to the school for the blind and nowhere else. That is how it was in alabama. All of the blind people were living in the town where the school for the blind was located. Even after graduation. if not, they worked for the agency for the blind. That was all. I feel that it should be the parents choice, and the student when he or she is older. Finally, both settings have their disadvantages, and advantages. I don't know what I would do with the choice. Melissa Green Limitations live only in our minds. But if we use our imaginations, our possibilities become limitless ----- Original Message ----- From: "Serena" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education >I went to a public school and am really glad I did! I didn't get a choice >about it cuz, in NJ, there isn't a legitimit school for the blind. >(There's actually a religiously affiliated school that's for kids with >multiple disabilities, although the school authorities would never say >that. They're a bunch of lyers!)I was involved in concert band and the pep >band in high school and made 2 great long-lasting friends! I don't think I >would've changed anything. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:11 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Schools for the Blind vs. Public School Education > > >> Hi everyone: >> >> Almost 10 days until convention. I'm very much excited about coming, >> especially since I haven't >> been in two years. >> >> But I wanted to pose a question that could possibly lead to some research >> later on. >> >> In determine what type of education you would receive, were you given an >> opportunity to provide >> input as to whether a school for the blind was a good option vs. an >> education in a public school >> system. What were your experience in which ever educational setting you >> ended up in? Looking >> back, what would you have changed or wanted to have happen? >> >> Any input would be great. I'll provide my input publicly later on, but >> just wanted to get a feel >> for the range of experiences people may have. >> >> Thanks >> >> Denna Lambert >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com > ____________________________________________________________ Criminal Lawyers - Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTOVoJPJpDpzid7bG6H9wVFm7bb8xE1XzgROHUCh5dt2lsIUO24tm4/ From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 10:43:29 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 06:43:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <20090622044925.GP12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <3af83dbb0906180943sa227ca3o9cab42a93362a2c3@mail.gmail.com><00b301c9f06a$6c21bdc0$0701a8c0@Serene><3af83dbb0906181902i38837993x7c81aced6ac080fa@mail.gmail.com><20090621213358.GK12990@yumi.bluecherry.net><4A3EB460.9050903@gatamundo.com><3af83dbb0906211930l257ea3crad7b14da878dd1ea@mail.gmail.com> <20090622044925.GP12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <91D23ADB8E1A45A59FFAF6B265CBE09D@Jessica> Joseph, >From what I understand the Treasury Department wasn't planning on changing the one dollar bill because then all vending machines would have to be replaced . I believe that the currency is still being worked on although I haven't recently heard an update from ACB in quite some time. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world,or should the world adapt to us? > Alena, > > I promise at these two intersections, it IS loud enough in the right > conditions. The block is really short, less than 100 yards, and there's a > tall building that the sound bounces off of. When the wind is right, it > sounds like the sound's in a different spot than it is, and it's got > enough volume to be confused easily. > > I actually tried to come up with a way to change all bills but the dollar, > and I couldn't find a good way to do it. Neither the ACB nor the NFB nor > the Treasury Department came up with a good way to do it either, but all > of them concluded that changes should be made to all but the dollar. > > I say change the dollar, but change it last. Produce the $100 bill first > at the current size (or a fraction longer), and decrease the length of the > bills from there. This allows current cash registers to be used, but > causes money handling machines to need to be changed. That's acceptable, > provided that times and tax breaks equating the cost of retrofitting over > time are provided to offset the cost to the private sector. The $20 and > $1 should be last, since the $20 affects the majority of ATMs and the $1 > affects vending machines. > > Option #2 is to stop printing the $1 bill. The $1 coin would be much > easier for vending machines to support, and some already do. > > Ultimately, we don't know what the Treasury Department will ultimately do. > Right now they're considering options, including electronic bill > identifiers. I think a barcode printed to be read with a specific > wavelength of light makes the most sense for this, but again it's a change > to the currency. Granted, it's a change that makes readers cost like $30, > but it's still a change. It also helps deter counterfeiters and gives the > blind a way to detect a counterfeit bill other than by it not feeling > right (the most common means of detecting a forgery today..) > > This one's a settled issue in my mind. The ACB won, and I'm not sorry > they did. I think they took one hell of a risk in our name to do it. > That's water under the bridge. We continued to fight against the ACB on > this one beyond a point where our efforts could only cause what we most > feared, in my opinion. But that too is water under the bridge. Taxpayers > are going to foot the bill for this one, and that is settled. Our job now > is to make sure they get what they're paying for, in my opinion. > > Joseph > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 07:30:38PM -0700, alena roberts wrote: >>I want to respond to a couple of things. I think we're really off >>topic from where we started with, but that's okay. I think that >>conversation is what I wanted, and all of you have given that to me. >> >>I have never crossed because I heard an audible signal a block away. >>My hearing knows that the sound isn't loud enough, so I ignore it, I >>also always listen to my traffic and the audible signal. I agree with >>Len that the quiter signals that talk to you are better than the >>chirpers, but in my opinion having something is better than nothing. >>Before I moved to Corvallis, I had to cross at inersections that were >>unsafe for me because they wre hard to read. In those cases, audible >>signals would have been very helpful. >> >>As far as the currency goes, I don't think it matters how many >>american dollars are made vs. some other countries currency. There are >>ways to transform the bills without using tactile markings, and if the >>$1 wasn't changed, most vending machines wouldn't have to be changed. >>Money management is such a vital skill in my opinion, and I think that >>I should have the right to use cash if I want to. I choose not to >>because I can't distinguish it on my own, I don't have an expensive >>machine that will tell me what denomination I have, and I am trusting >>sighted people to be honest with me. >> >>Those are just some thoughts. >> >>-- >>Alena Roberts >>Blog: http://www.blindgal.com/ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From jmatte28 at comcast.net Mon Jun 22 12:11:39 2009 From: jmatte28 at comcast.net (jonathan matte) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 08:11:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] tv and commedy meet music of the 1950's on tomorrow's anything goes Message-ID: <5C9810F11F0944DBBADAD3EE25236EE4@homexpuser> Hi there everyone! What does the old television series Dragnet have to do with a stan Freberg commedy clip? the answer to that question can be found out tomorrow morning on anything goes hosted by myself Jon Matte. For those of you who have not had a chance to check out Anything goes and found out more about it Anything Goes is an online internet radio show that airs Tuesday and sometimes on Thursday mornings on Radio 360 an all new online radio station started up by my friend and station director David Dunphy. The program is called Anything goes because it is based off of the broadway hit of the same renown title but I not only see this program as being a source of musical entertainment, but also as a venue to debate or discuss serious or thought provoking issues, review technology, books, or other products of interest, and to keep up on trends both in the news and outside of regular conventional media sources. You can also count on some good old banter. This week's music theme will be a continuing exploration of the hits of the 1950's as we look at music from the years 1953 through 1955 as determined by Billboard the trade publication which monitors trends inside the entertainment and music business. As many people know the 1950's was an interesting era. >From 1942 till about 1955 it was a very laid back and easy listening sort of era but with Rock And Roll on the rise music was about to get a face lift and be forever changed. So if you enjoy listening to older music and learning some informative facts such as what the first official rock and roll song ever to be recorded was then I invite you to join me Jon Matte this Tuesday morning from 6 AM through the 9 o'clock hour for Anything Goes where you should never expect the unexpected because the unexpected will never occur. To listen at 6 A. M. head on over to www.radio360.us and follow the options listed for listening. There are a few alternate ways that you can tune in to the show so if one doesn't work try all of them and use which ever one works best for your listening preferences and your office/ home computer system. During the show you can email me with questions, to say hello, or with any requests for music from 1953 through 1955 to jmatte22 at comcast.net or for those who are feeling extremely bold you can instant message me through aim/ AOL Instant Messenger at the screen name tvvault82 If you don't have aim it's a free software messaging client that you can download directly from aim.com In closing I would really like to encourage folks out their to check out my show. While I understand that not everyone is going to necessarily be a fan of 1950's music I'm looking to try and improve the amount of listeners that I get to my program by trying different things in each show to try and make it interesting while sticking with my main theme. I look forward to seeing you all on radio 360 tomorrow morning Have a great day! Regards Jon Matte host of Anything Goes From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 12:11:58 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:11:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] At Last You'll Get Your NFB Convention Tribute Dan From Maryland And More On Tonight's Special Djd Invasion Message-ID: <3914F889FE5946FC90829248297FFB44@thedjdinvasion> Hi All! That's right! You heard it! I want to apologize for those who tried tuning in last night, but with the server upgrading that went on during my normal time slot last night, The Djd Invasion could not air! So it will air tonight at 8 PM eastern, and feature Big Dan as co host, some great music, and that highly anticipated tribute to those going to the NFB convention. During the show, we can be contacted by email, msn, or aim at live at radio360.us or when we're on the mic and not playing songs, we can be called by either dialing 516-717-4425 or we can be reached on skype at radio360usa So to listen, save this email, and at 8 PM eastern, go to http://www.radio360.us/players/playerselection.html to be connected to the stream! We hope to see you on this special night for some special Djd Invasion fun! Best regards, David Dunphy, Radio360 station manager http://www.radio360.us From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 18:34:35 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 11:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain Message-ID: <397203.37382.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Joseph, My wrist, hand, and forearm pain have almost disappeared. You are right; at the moment I use a 64 inch aluminum ambutech cane with a golf drip and a roller tip. I am six foot four, and you are right, it is too short. I often dont find curbs or obstacles until it is too late, or until I am an inch or so away from disaster. I took a "Superman" style dive off the curb the other day for just that very reason. But there really isnt much I can do about it at the moment (not until I can get to convention and get another, longer cane). Pretty much, I need as long of a cane as possible, and for me, that means either a 70, or a 72 inch cane. I really have no preference for the style of my next cane, except I know I don't want a rigid cane. For me, a rigid cane will become 70 inches of, "where the hell do I put this thing?" Being that I dont/wont use my cane all the time, portability is key. Also, I am not convinced the roller tip is not causing some of my problems; I am not sure what that tip is or isnt feeling. However, I breifly tried a disc-tip, and that tip got stuck in every single tinly crack on the sidewalk. Other than a disc or roller tip, are there any other tip styles avaliable? If I understand my cane options: Cane style: Rigid canes are strong, light and sensitive, but a pain in the ass to transport Telescoping canes are weak, but sensitive (and the one I tried liked to collapse itself) folding canes are stronger that telescoping, but not as sensitive as telescoping or rigid Tips rollers are heavyer and less sensitive, but fight off cracks better Disc tips are lighter, more sensitive, but get stuck on every crack Cane material Other than weight, I am not familiar with the attributes of the various cane materials At convention I think I may pick up a 70 inch folding carbon fiber with a roller tip (if possible, I will pick up a extra disc tip). Thanks, Jim   "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Sun, 6/21/09, T. Joseph Carter wrote: From: T. Joseph Carter Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 11:05 PM Jim, Sorry for the thread necromancy... If you're going to Detroit this year, look me up.  I had to develop some custom cane techniques while I was in Colorado, and I till use them sometimes when the weather and terrain call for them.  Start learning to use that cane in both hands, and invest in a good soft ice pack while you're learning. It sounds like you're using a heavier graphite/aluminum golf grip cane.  I think you mentioned elsewhere that it folds.  I'll bet anything that if you're used to moving around without a cane, at speed, it's too short for you. Unfortunately, the Independence Market is clearing out what stock it has of 50/50 canes--they had a few design flaws, and the design was never improved.  That means your choices for NFB canes are rigid (which can take creativity to figure out what to do with it when you're not using it), or the telescopic models.  The latter don't take a whole lot of abuse, and I don't recommend them for a heavy-handed cane user. I use mostly the rigid model, even though you won't find a much lighter hand than I use. Joseph On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 12:16:38PM -0700, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side,  on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the side of the cane > > Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum  that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole vault. After > the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. > I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. > Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > >      _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 22 20:12:39 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness Message-ID: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to coincide with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people were out. First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got myself lost, so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for traffic or anything else that might give me a clue, then this guy started yelling from his porch "are you OK, do you need any help, do you know where you are, where are you going..." I yelled back that "I was fine, that I did not need any help, and that I was trying to figure it out for myself". I continued to stand there, trying to figure it out,  and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was being so distracting that I just said "F This",  and moved on, thus a learning opportunity was lost. Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders campus, and I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, and I did not want to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady approaches me, introduces herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she had been following me for a block or two, and then she tells me that "you are doing great", and that "I admire you". I politely said thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I really wasn't blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But really, I was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring me? All I am doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on the planet can do." Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am "doing great"? She has no clue where I started, or where I was going. She has no clue if I am lost two miles in the wrong direction, nor does she know whether or not I fell off of half a dozen curbs in the process of getting to school."  I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two weeks of cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that tells others "I know what I am doing". I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness are so much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, after observing a blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully competent and capable. I would not be willing to make that assumption. Why is this lady making such assumptions about me? I am not complaining that this lady thinks I am capable,  I am complaining because this lady feels she has all the information she needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only two blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven anything, this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it positive or negative judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn your complements and your admiration; don't just give them to me. Thoughts? Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 21:46:48 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:46:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness In-Reply-To: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would have taken that opportunity to educate her and say, I'm must doing something normal just like you would do. I did that a lot in Ruston and it semeed to help. I was nice about it and showed them that I was just like any sighted person out there. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reed Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 1:13 PM To: NABS mail list Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness Hey all, Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to coincide with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people were out. First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got myself lost, so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for traffic or anything else that might give me a clue, then this guy started yelling from his porch "are you OK, do you need any help, do you know where you are, where are you going..." I yelled back that "I was fine, that I did not need any help, and that I was trying to figure it out for myself". I continued to stand there, trying to figure it out,  and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was being so distracting that I just said "F This",  and moved on, thus a learning opportunity was lost. Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders campus, and I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, and I did not want to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady approaches me, introduces herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she had been following me for a block or two, and then she tells me that "you are doing great", and that "I admire you". I politely said thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I really wasn't blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But really, I was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring me? All I am doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on the planet can do." Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am "doing great"? She has no clue where I started, or where I was going. She has no clue if I am lost two miles in the wrong direction, nor does she know whether or not I fell off of half a dozen curbs in the process of getting to school."  I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two weeks of cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that tells others "I know what I am doing". I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness are so much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, after observing a blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully competent and capable. I would not be willing to make that assumption. Why is this lady making such assumptions about me? I am not complaining that this lady thinks I am capable,  I am complaining because this lady feels she has all the information she needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only two blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven anything, this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it positive or negative judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn your complements and your admiration; don't just give them to me. Thoughts? Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From cnaylor073 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 22:01:05 2009 From: cnaylor073 at gmail.com (Christina Mitchell) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:01:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness In-Reply-To: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54f02f10906221501i28370ed3k9c08021cf267090c@mail.gmail.com> When someone says they admire what I do or that I'm doing great, I just take it as a compliment and thank them. I don't get upset about it. I would be more upset if they start asking me why am I walking when I can't see where I'm going. At least they know I'm trying, hence the reason why they say I'm doing great or they admire me. In this case, I don't think these people were doing this in an attempt to be mean, they're simply trying to help but don't know the best way how, hence the reason why they react in ways we don't consider helpful. Just my 2 sense. On 6/22/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to coincide > with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people were out. > > First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got myself lost, > so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for traffic or anything > else that might give me a clue, then this guy started yelling from his porch > "are you OK, do you need any help, do you know where you are, where are you > going..." I yelled back that "I was fine, that I did not need any help, and > that I was trying to figure it out for myself". I continued to stand there, > trying to figure it out,  and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy > continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was being so > distracting that I just said "F This",  and moved on, thus a learning > opportunity was lost. > > Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders campus, and > I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, and I did not want > to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady approaches me, introduces > herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she had been following me for a block > or two, and then she tells me that "you are doing great", and that "I admire > you". I politely said thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I > really wasn't blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But > really, I was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring me? All I > am doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on the planet can do." > Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am "doing great"? She has no > clue where I started, or where I was going. She has no clue if I am lost two > miles in the wrong direction, nor does she know whether or not I fell off of > half a dozen curbs in the process of getting to school." > >  I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two weeks of > cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that tells others "I > know what I am doing". > > I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness are so > much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, after observing a > blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully competent and capable. I > would not be willing to make that assumption. Why is this lady making such > assumptions about me? I am not complaining that this lady thinks I am > capable,  I am complaining because this lady feels she has all the > information she needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only > two blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven anything, > this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it positive or negative > judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn your complements and your > admiration; don't just give them to me. > > Thoughts? > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina From serenacucco at verizon.net Mon Jun 22 22:24:58 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:24:58 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016c01c9f388$477bfe60$0701a8c0@Serene> Hi Jim Actually, the lady wasn't saying you were doing great cuz she was really observing much. She said it cuz she doesn't know anything about blindness, so thinks your walking at all is amazing. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Reed" To: "NABS mail list" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:12 PM Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness Hey all, Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to coincide with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people were out. First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got myself lost, so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for traffic or anything else that might give me a clue, then this guy started yelling from his porch "are you OK, do you need any help, do you know where you are, where are you going..." I yelled back that "I was fine, that I did not need any help, and that I was trying to figure it out for myself". I continued to stand there, trying to figure it out, and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was being so distracting that I just said "F This", and moved on, thus a learning opportunity was lost. Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders campus, and I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, and I did not want to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady approaches me, introduces herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she had been following me for a block or two, and then she tells me that "you are doing great", and that "I admire you". I politely said thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I really wasn't blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But really, I was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring me? All I am doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on the planet can do." Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am "doing great"? She has no clue where I started, or where I was going. She has no clue if I am lost two miles in the wrong direction, nor does she know whether or not I fell off of half a dozen curbs in the process of getting to school." I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two weeks of cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that tells others "I know what I am doing". I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness are so much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, after observing a blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully competent and capable. I would not be willing to make that assumption. Why is this lady making such assumptions about me? I am not complaining that this lady thinks I am capable, I am complaining because this lady feels she has all the information she needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only two blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven anything, this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it positive or negative judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn your complements and your admiration; don't just give them to me. Thoughts? Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 22:44:00 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:44:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <54f02f10906221501i28370ed3k9c08021cf267090c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c9f38a$f0b35210$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> When people tell me things like that I just thank them and keep going. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Mitchell" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness When someone says they admire what I do or that I'm doing great, I just take it as a compliment and thank them. I don't get upset about it. I would be more upset if they start asking me why am I walking when I can't see where I'm going. At least they know I'm trying, hence the reason why they say I'm doing great or they admire me. In this case, I don't think these people were doing this in an attempt to be mean, they're simply trying to help but don't know the best way how, hence the reason why they react in ways we don't consider helpful. Just my 2 sense. On 6/22/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to > coincide > with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people were out. > > First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got myself > lost, > so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for traffic or > anything > else that might give me a clue, then this guy started yelling from his > porch > "are you OK, do you need any help, do you know where you are, where are > you > going..." I yelled back that "I was fine, that I did not need any help, > and > that I was trying to figure it out for myself". I continued to stand > there, > trying to figure it out, and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy > continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was being > so > distracting that I just said "F This", and moved on, thus a learning > opportunity was lost. > > Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders campus, > and > I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, and I did not want > to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady approaches me, introduces > herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she had been following me for a > block > or two, and then she tells me that "you are doing great", and that "I > admire > you". I politely said thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I > really wasn't blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But > really, I was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring me? All I > am doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on the planet can do." > Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am "doing great"? She has no > clue where I started, or where I was going. She has no clue if I am lost > two > miles in the wrong direction, nor does she know whether or not I fell off > of > half a dozen curbs in the process of getting to school." > > I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two weeks of > cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that tells others "I > know what I am doing". > > I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness are so > much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, after observing > a > blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully competent and capable. I > would not be willing to make that assumption. Why is this lady making such > assumptions about me? I am not complaining that this lady thinks I am > capable, I am complaining because this lady feels she has all the > information she needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only > two blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven > anything, > this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it positive or negative > judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn your complements and your > admiration; don't just give them to me. > > Thoughts? > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.com > -- Christina _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Mon Jun 22 23:07:18 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:07:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <54f02f10906221501i28370ed3k9c08021cf267090c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's OK. Someone who saw me walking with my cane the other day said that I need to activate my sonar so I can cross the street. Go figure that! >From David ***** If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and more! To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at http://www.radio360.us Follow us on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa or add us to your MySpace at http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! From fowlers at syix.com Mon Jun 22 23:26:12 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:26:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness In-Reply-To: <000901c9f38a$f0b35210$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><54f02f10906221501i28370ed3k9c08021cf267090c@mail.gmail.com> <000901c9f38a$f0b35210$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <0A8E429C48174D14B01E438B02039AA7@angelab> I don't know. It irritates me too sometimes, particularly since it seems like every time people give me such compliments I've just made some silly mistake. What is so spectacular about accomplishing this simple task, I wonder, especially since I'm not doing a real good job at it. On the other hand though, when they say they admire you, it means you are surpassing their expectations of what a blind person is capable of. Shouldn't that cause them to raise the bar a bit, especially if they see other competent blind people shortly thereafter? Any time we allow someone to see us exceeding their low expectations we've taken a baby step forward. Maybe, just maybe we've put that person on the path toward true understanding. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rania Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 3:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness When people tell me things like that I just thank them and keep going. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Mitchell" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness When someone says they admire what I do or that I'm doing great, I just take it as a compliment and thank them. I don't get upset about it. I would be more upset if they start asking me why am I walking when I can't see where I'm going. At least they know I'm trying, hence the reason why they say I'm doing great or they admire me. In this case, I don't think these people were doing this in an attempt to be mean, they're simply trying to help but don't know the best way how, hence the reason why they react in ways we don't consider helpful. Just my 2 sense. On 6/22/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > > Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to > coincide > with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people were out. > > First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got myself > lost, > so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for traffic or > anything > else that might give me a clue, then this guy started yelling from his > porch > "are you OK, do you need any help, do you know where you are, where are > you > going..." I yelled back that "I was fine, that I did not need any help, > and > that I was trying to figure it out for myself". I continued to stand > there, > trying to figure it out, and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy > continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was being > so > distracting that I just said "F This", and moved on, thus a learning > opportunity was lost. > > Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders campus, > and > I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, and I did not want > to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady approaches me, introduces > herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she had been following me for a > block > or two, and then she tells me that "you are doing great", and that "I > admire > you". I politely said thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I > really wasn't blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But > really, I was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring me? All I > am doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on the planet can do." > Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am "doing great"? She has no > clue where I started, or where I was going. She has no clue if I am lost > two > miles in the wrong direction, nor does she know whether or not I fell off > of > half a dozen curbs in the process of getting to school." > > I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two weeks of > cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that tells others "I > know what I am doing". > > I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness are so > much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, after observing > a > blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully competent and capable. I > would not be willing to make that assumption. Why is this lady making such > assumptions about me? I am not complaining that this lady thinks I am > capable, I am complaining because this lady feels she has all the > information she needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only > two blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven > anything, > this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it positive or negative > judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn your complements and your > admiration; don't just give them to me. > > Thoughts? > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cnaylor073%40gmail.c om > -- Christina _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 00:24:33 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:24:33 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] should the blind adapt to the world, or should the world adapt to us? In-Reply-To: <91D23ADB8E1A45A59FFAF6B265CBE09D@Jessica> References: <20090622044925.GP12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> <91D23ADB8E1A45A59FFAF6B265CBE09D@Jessica> Message-ID: <20090623002433.GU12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Jess, The Treasury Department doesn't actually know what it is going to do exactly just yet, except that they do not have plans to alter the dollar bill. They may find that finally ceasing to print the dollar bill is the best solution to the problem. Joseph On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 06:43:29AM -0400, Jess wrote: >Joseph, >>From what I understand the Treasury Department wasn't planning on changing >the one dollar bill because then all vending machines would have to be >replaced . I believe that the currency is still being worked on although I >haven't recently heard an update from ACB in quite some time. >Jessica From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 00:49:17 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 17:49:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: <914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer> References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab> <914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer> Message-ID: <20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> More thread necromancy for Joseph, yay! At CCB, there is a thing we call the DNA pole. Just about every student at the center has left some on it when they smack into it. I managed to avoid it because I'm left-handed and naturally tended to find it with my cane. At least, I managed until one day at the very end when not even wearing a sleepshade or anything, SMACK! Joseph On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 03:25:38PM -0700, Sarah Alawami wrote: >I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. The >thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that were not >moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far away. I wandered >in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to the center. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Angela fowler >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Jim, > Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test >drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the hang >of it you will find it a big help. > A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the >neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X street >and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that landmark. >If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you have >that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, and I >turned left, so now I'm walking north. > If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime >detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you have >drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been using a cane >all my life and I still hate them LOL. > Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more >comfortable you will be with it. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Jim Reed >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM >To: MAB List; NABS mail list >Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Hey all, >The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be hard >to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it more >challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to sleepshades at >night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the basics. With the >sunglasses on,  I got turned around once, and then overshot my house by two >blocks. When I got lost I took off my sunglasses and was able to find my >way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. >I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake when >I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't passed the >gym, I'd be one county over by now.  Oh, by the way, large parking lots are >a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. >and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the street >without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb on the other >side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic at midnight, I was >safe). > >I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane make >you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > >Thanks, >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 01:44:36 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:44:36 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help In-Reply-To: <009d01c9f203$360969a0$0701a8c0@Serene> References: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> <007d01c9f068$e6880a30$0701a8c0@Serene> <20090620003837.2ab3qbgntw84wgc4@webmail.utoronto.ca> <009d01c9f203$360969a0$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: Hi Ginnie and all, I’d like to address two aspects of this question. The first is offering solutions that Ginnie and other students can use to successfully and efficiently learn the way around campus. The second is addressing who is responsible for providing blindness-related assistance, including help finding classrooms. To answer the first question, in my experience there really isn’t much an O&M instructor can teach you about campus that can’t be taught by any individual who has a reasonable knowledge of the campus layout and knows which buildings you will be using. If someone is available to offer help as a volunteer, great. If not, then why not put up a flyer on campus offering to pay someone $15 for two hours of assistance (or two one-hour meetings; maybe the first meeting they can show you the route(s) and the second meeting you can practice)? This person will essentially be acting as a reader—providing information from the campus map or from building signs which you can then use to construct a mental map of the campus, and know how to find the buildings in the future. Problem solved—for only $15. Or, why not ask a friend or acquaintance for a couple hours of their time and offer to cook them dinner or buy them lunch as a reciprocation? Again, problem solved—without having to wait on bureaucratic VR officials to fit you into their packed schedule. And it gives you the ability to manage the reader on your own. Of course, this plan assumes that you have the basic cane/orientation skills needed to remember the routes you learn and be able to follow them in the future. Remember also that there’s a learning curve for everyone, blind or sighted, to learn a new campus. You won’t know the routes perfectly after one or two lessons. But you should have enough knowledge to get within a good distance of where you want to be, and then be able to explore on your own or ask questions in order to clarify the route, and find landmarks that work best for you. Now, to the second, more philosophical question. I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think it is a school’s responsibility to provide O&M. It technically isn’t even a school’s legal obligation to provide materials in accessible formats; many schools don’t have DSS offices or other formal means of producing accessible materials at all. What schools are obligated to do is to merely allow us to use reasonable accommodations, even if we have to come up with the accommodations ourselves. If a university can’t provide accessible testing materials or pay readers for us, they have to give us permission to use our own readers, laptops, etc. to take tests. Denying us this right would be violating the ADA, but the school doesn’t have to go the extra mile and make the exam materials accessible. Similarly, even if the school doesn’t provide O&M, we still have other, often better, ways of learning our way around. If a school wants to provide formal O&M services as a courtesy, I have no problem with that. But I think it’s ultimately the student’s responsibility to figure out how to access class materials, and also how to get to and from class. As has been mentioned, O&M is rarely, if ever, provided on the job. And for us as blind students, the best way (often the only way) for us to feel confident and really develop our skills is through practice and problem-solving. I think that also, in general, we need to be sure to distinguish between true inaccessibility and mere inconvenience. Take the example of Braille signs in buildings. In the CU psychology building where I go to class and work, the Braille signage is sparse and inconsistent. Many of my professors’ offices, the business office and some classrooms don’t have Braille. On my first day, I had to spend some time asking people where rooms were instead of just reading the signs. Did I face more inconvenience finding my advisor’s office and distinguishing between the men’s and women’s bathrooms than other first-year students? Certainly. But was I unable to visit my advisor’s office or use the bathrooms in the building? Certainly not. I could file a complaint and insist that the Braille signage gets updated, and technically I’d be justified in doing that. But frankly, doing so takes much time and effort, which I’d rather be spending on my classes and job. Contrast that with buildings that lack wheelchair ramps, which makes it very hard or impossible for wheelchair users to get into the building. These buildings are truly inaccessible to wheelchair users, whereas a lack of Braille signs is merely inconvenient. (Incidentally, the National Center for the Blind has little, if any, Braille signage in its headquarters building. When I interned there, guess how I found my colleagues’ offices? The old-fashioned way, by asking questions and forming a mental map. And that experience helped me get comfortable enough with those techniques to be able to do it again in the psych building!) I think that many of us, especially those of us who grew up blind, are conditioned by society to focus a lot on our “special needs” and we sometimes lose track of finding the best solution to get the job done. After all, we have IEP’s all through school, and then after high school we get entered into the “transition” system, followed by voc rehab. It’s easy to assume that the only solution to a given problem lies in the blindness system—through VR or DSS, for instance. I have certainly been guilty of that kind of thinking. For instance, until recently I thought that the only way for me to learn my campus was through months of lessons with trained O&M specialists, and that the only way for me to take an exam in college was through DSS. Sometimes, as in Ginnie’s situation, the blindness system isn’t an option. It is in times like these when we need to take a step back and think about creative solutions—like asking a friend to orient us to campus, for instance. There is a danger of relying only on the blindness system and then, if the system fails us, feeling like we have no choice but to either fight the system tooth and nail or give up and drop out of school. It may seem like an exaggeration, but I’ve definitely seen students respond in both ways. One of the things I think NABS does best is to help each other find ways to “think outside the box”, so to speak, and solve problems on our own, without being forced to depend on an often unpredictable blindness system. It is extremely liberating to know that, while the blindness system is there and can help us sometimes, we still have ways to get the job done with or without them. Respectfully, Arielle On 6/21/09, Serena wrote: > I only meant that they legally don't have to provide cane lessons, not that > they morally shouldn't do it. Plus, the disability office doesn't > necessarily know anything about blindness before the first blind student > comes on campus, so might not be the best option. Asking the office for > some responsible students to orient the blind students could be helpful. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 12:38 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > > >> >> >> >> I would respectfully disagree. I think it's 100% the school's >> responsibility to orient the student to campus. If the student wishes to >> learn the surrounding city/town they should find their own way of doing >> it, but how can a office for students with disabilities properly assist >> their students academically if the students don't know the way to class? >> >> >> Quoting Serena : >> >>> I don't think the college has a legal responsibility to provide cane >>> lessons to blind students and, yes, it's the student's responsibility >>> to orient to the campus. Having said that, this doesn't mean that >>> nobody should be available to help students orient. It doesn't have to >>> be the disability services office. When I was in college, I simply >>> asked friends I really trusted to walk with me around campus to orient >>> me. I also sometimes used my mom. If you don't think your friends are >>> right for the job, so to speak, readers are often good options. >>> >>> Serena >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "V Nork" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 4:47 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a >>>> research topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. >>>> What would happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he >>>> or she needed help with orientation and mobility but had no funding >>>> from government or social agencies? Let us say in this example the >>>> student already had basic white cane skills, but just needed to have >>>> someone walk with them until they had a route planned? Would the >>>> college or university offer direct help? On my campus, such help is >>>> seen as the individual responsibility of the blind student. It is >>>> simply sink or swim if one does not have help or money to pay for >>>> it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help should post a >>>> flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that is >>>> reasonable to think that some member of the college or university >>>> could be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility >>>> aideto do an initial run through so a student could get to >>>> classes each semester. I have tried to lobby for this in a low key >>>> way, but so far my suggestions have fallen on unreceptive ears. My >>>> request for tactile maps has also been seemingly ignored. Is this >>>> similar or not to the situation on your campus? Thanks for any >>>> thoughts, Ginnie >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 01:54:35 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:54:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: <20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab><914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer> <20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Loil. Reminds me of the julery box that everyone including me used to smac in to. Some were lucky until the day the graduated. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 More thread necromancy for Joseph, yay! At CCB, there is a thing we call the DNA pole. Just about every student at the center has left some on it when they smack into it. I managed to avoid it because I'm left-handed and naturally tended to find it with my cane. At least, I managed until one day at the very end when not even wearing a sleepshade or anything, SMACK! Joseph On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 03:25:38PM -0700, Sarah Alawami wrote: >I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. >The thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that >were not moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far >away. I wandered in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to the center. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Angela fowler >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Jim, > Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test >drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the >hang of it you will find it a big help. > A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the >neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X >street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that landmark. >If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you >have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, >and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. > If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime >detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you >have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been >using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. > Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more comfortable >you will be with it. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Jim Reed >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM >To: MAB List; NABS mail list >Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Hey all, >The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be >hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it >more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >basics. With the sunglasses on,  I got turned around once, and then >overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. >I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake >when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't >passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now.  Oh, by the way, large >parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. >and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic >at midnight, I was safe). > >I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > >Thanks, >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix. >com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From fowlers at syix.com Tue Jun 23 02:24:25 2009 From: fowlers at syix.com (Angela fowler) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:24:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab><914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer><20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Ah, the famous pole. It's in a perfect spot, isn't it? I creased my forehead on that sucker a couple times. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Alawami Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:55 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Loil. Reminds me of the julery box that everyone including me used to smac in to. Some were lucky until the day the graduated. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 More thread necromancy for Joseph, yay! At CCB, there is a thing we call the DNA pole. Just about every student at the center has left some on it when they smack into it. I managed to avoid it because I'm left-handed and naturally tended to find it with my cane. At least, I managed until one day at the very end when not even wearing a sleepshade or anything, SMACK! Joseph On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 03:25:38PM -0700, Sarah Alawami wrote: >I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. >The thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that >were not moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far >away. I wandered in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to >the center. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Angela fowler >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Jim, > Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test >drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the >hang of it you will find it a big help. > A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the >neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X >street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed >that landmark. >If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you >have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, >and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. > If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime >detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you >have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been >using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. > Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more comfortable >you will be with it. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Jim Reed >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM >To: MAB List; NABS mail list >Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Hey all, >The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be >hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it >more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >basics. With the sunglasses on,  I got turned around once, and then >overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out >how I got turned around the first time. >I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake >when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't >passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now.  Oh, by the way, large >parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and >very large sidewalks. >and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic >at midnight, I was safe). > >I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > >Thanks, >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix. >com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 02:44:22 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:44:22 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness In-Reply-To: References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <54f02f10906221501i28370ed3k9c08021cf267090c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim and all, It sounds like you’ve stumbled upon the more entertaining side of cane travel! Rest assured that all of us have experienced this weirdness at some point, to varying degrees. You’re right also to be a bit puzzled by the compliments you’ve started getting for merely walking down the street. This happens to me too, and I find it irritating for two reasons. First, I don’t believe the comments arise from people’s belief that I am fully competent and capable (as you mention). This is because in my experience, sighted people who actually believe I am capable of getting around don’t make these comments. On the other hand, upon further questioning, it often becomes apparent that the people who do make the comments don’t have much faith in my abilities after all. Rather, I think that when people tell me I’m admirable or amazing for walking a couple blocks down the street, they’re merely saying that I’m more competent than they expected, not that I’m fully competent. This also explains why people make the remarks even after we’ve made some travel mistake. Even if we mess up, bad, we’re still better at it than they expected, so it’s natural to feel like they didn’t expect much to begin with. The second reason it bugs me is that it seems like sometimes people feel like they have to offer me encouragement or “cheerleading” by saying things like “You’re doing great” or “You’re OK” as I walk by minding my own business. It’s almost like what you would say to a little kid who’s learning something for the first time. Similar is being patted on the shoulder by a stranger or being asked “Are you by yourself?” at the airport. Of course, it doesn’t feel good to be thought of either as childlike or as so depressed or unstable that we need their encouragement. So we do have the right to be annoyed by this stuff, but we also don’t have to be bitter or discouraged by it either. A sense of humor can be your best ally in these kinds of situations. Often when something like this happens there isn’t time to respond directly to the person, but we can laugh about it later (either to ourselves or to friends) which helps us realize that the subtle insults implied by this behavior don’t really mean anything. A couple weeks ago I was out at a restaurant with my boyfriend when a lady at a table next to us approached me and said out of the blue, “I know you don’t know who I am, but I just think you’re so beautiful!” Of course I had no idea what to say back to her so I just said “thanks” kind of awkwardly and after she walked away we both just started cracking up. In that situation it wasn’t even really clear that her comment was blindness-related (after all maybe I was just looking really great that night!) but it was strange enough that blindness seemed to at least partially factor in. She could have thought that just merely seeing a blind woman at a restaurant on a date like a normal 24-year-old was just so incredibly beautiful that she felt compelled to tell me (and after all, she never told him he was handsome!) But, in any case, we laughed about it and realized that in the grand scheme of things it wasn’t a big deal. Sometimes, there is time to turn the encounter into an educational opportunity. Once when I was at the airport and asked someone whether I was going the right way to get from baggage claim to the ground transportation exit on the other side of the terminal, the woman confirmed I was going the right way and then added, “But it’s scary!” Now, this route literally involved me walking in a straight line across flat tile. I’ll admit the outside curbs where all the shuttles and buses pull in can be a little scary, but this definitely wasn’t. The woman was going the same way so I tried to explain to her that actually I did this kind of thing a lot and to me it wasn’t really a big deal. I think by the end of the conversation she mainly started to get it at least a little bit. Sometimes just saying, “Thanks for the compliment, but for me it’s really not that big of a deal” and then elaborating with a little more detail about how cane travel works is enough to get the main point across. I also think there’s a lot to teach just by example. The guy who says he admires you might at first be saying it out of low expectations. But if he sees over time that you’re a good traveler, those expectations are likely to slowly get ratcheted up. Arielle On 6/23/09, David Dunphy wrote: > That's OK. Someone who saw me walking with my cane the other day said that I > need to activate my sonar so I can cross the street. Go figure that! > >From David > > ***** > If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, > and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the > station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called > Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able > to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and > more! > To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at > http://www.radio360.us > Follow us on twitter at > http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa > or add us to your MySpace at > http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa > Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Tue Jun 23 03:07:51 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:07:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness In-Reply-To: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090622230751.a0rnmc71k0g4w0o4@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Jim, Abso-flippin'-lutely people are weird. A cane brings out the best, and the worst, in people. Just learn to smile and be polite (unless you feel in danger) and you'll be all good. I'm sure we all have many stories of the oddballs we've met along the way. Bear in mind that most people are well-intentioned, and will more than likely help you too much than try to lead you astray. Happy travels, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to > coincide with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people > were out. > > First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got > myself lost, so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for > traffic or anything else that might give me a clue, then this guy > started yelling from his porch "are you OK, do you need any help, do > you know where you are, where are you going..." I yelled back that > "I was fine, that I did not need any help, and that I was trying to > figure it out for myself". I continued to stand there, trying to > figure it out,  and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy > continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was > being so distracting that I just said "F This",  and moved on, thus > a learning opportunity was lost. > > Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders > campus, and I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, > and I did not want to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady > approaches me, introduces herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she > had been following me for a block or two, and then she tells me > that "you are doing great", and that "I admire you". I politely > said thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I really > wasn't blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But > really, I was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring > me? All I am doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on > the planet can do." Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am > "doing great"? She has no clue where I started, or where I was > going. She has no clue if I am lost two miles in the wrong > direction, nor does she know whether or not I fell off of half a > dozen curbs in the process of getting to school." > >  I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two > weeks of cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that > tells others "I know what I am doing". > > I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness > are so much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, > after observing a blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully > competent and capable. I would not be willing to make that > assumption. Why is this lady making such assumptions about me? I am > not complaining that this lady thinks I am capable,  I am > complaining because this lady feels she has all the information she > needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only two > blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven > anything, this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it > positive or negative judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn > your complements and your admiration; don't just give them to me. > > Thoughts? > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 03:54:17 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane Message-ID: <191267.11064.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Well, my first cane lasted all of two weeks. The cane got caught between a crack on the sidewalk and my hip, and the result was a cane bent beyond recognition, and then it snaped when I tried straightening it. When I got home,  I tried a makeshift splint and duct tape job, and the result probably would have been sufficient to get me home had I been forced to make such a repair enroute, but I wouldnt willingly go out with a cane in such a condition. I would not rank Ambutech's folding aluminum cane very highly. This sucks, I am out of a cane just when I was begining to feel comfortable with it. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 04:29:33 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:29:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab><914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer><20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: I managed to miss the jewelry box the whole time I was there. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Loil. Reminds me of the julery box that everyone including me used to smac in to. Some were lucky until the day the graduated. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 More thread necromancy for Joseph, yay! At CCB, there is a thing we call the DNA pole. Just about every student at the center has left some on it when they smack into it. I managed to avoid it because I'm left-handed and naturally tended to find it with my cane. At least, I managed until one day at the very end when not even wearing a sleepshade or anything, SMACK! Joseph On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 03:25:38PM -0700, Sarah Alawami wrote: >I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. >The thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that >were not moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far >away. I wandered in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to the center. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Angela fowler >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Jim, > Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test >drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the >hang of it you will find it a big help. > A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the >neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X >street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that landmark. >If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you >have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, >and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. > If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime >detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you >have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been >using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. > Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more comfortable >you will be with it. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Jim Reed >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM >To: MAB List; NABS mail list >Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Hey all, >The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be >hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it >more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then >overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. >I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake >when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't >passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, large >parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. >and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic >at midnight, I was safe). > >I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > >Thanks, >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix. >com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com From mworkman at ualberta.ca Tue Jun 23 05:20:11 2009 From: mworkman at ualberta.ca (mworkman at ualberta.ca) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 23:20:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Orientation on Campus and its Relation to Universal Design Message-ID: Hi everyone, I've been participating in two conversations on this list recently, and now I want to try to bring them together. As you can guess from the subject line, one was on orientation on campus and the other on universal design. What I plan to say may not make complete sense if you haven't followed the two conversations, but that's why we have archives. Part of the difficulty in the discussion of universal design was that it took place mainly in the abstract. It was difficult to discuss any concrete example that didn't have some bagage attached to it. I want to try to offer a concrete example that is particularly important to students and may help bring focus to the universal design discussion. In the orientation discussion, I argued that the school has a responsibility, morally if not legally, to provide students with basic orientation around campus should the student request it. I'm not talking about cane lessons, just some route planning to classrooms and other destinations on campus. I also want to make it clear that this is a second best solution for me, and ideally a temporary one. The primary solution to the issue of orientation would be for the school to take steps to make it possible for a student to learn these routes entirely independently, or at least as independently as possible. Some of these steps might include offering tactile maps, or particularly detailed written descriptions of the campus, placing braille on classroom doors, putting the names of buildings in braille in easy to locate areas just inside or outside of each building, and perhaps some alterations to the landscaping of the campus , though I don't know what exact sorts of landscaping changes would be appropriate. These are just a few ideas. If smarter people than me thought about this, they could come up with other much better ways to make it easier for a blind person to independently find locations on campus. If it's not yet obvious, here's how what I'm saying links up with universal design. If someone said, why does the school have this responsibility? My answer would be that if a school is going to provide various guides to finding locations on campus for sighted people (e.g., maps around campus, printed names on buildings, room numbers on doors, etc), then it is only fair that they offer some alternative way of accessing this information for people who don't use sight as their primary means of accessing information. So I'm saying that the design of the campus did not take blindness into consideration, and to make up for this bad design, the school should, first, take steps to make sure that the information they provide through maps, signs, and printed markings is accessible in other ways, in accordance with the principle of universal design, or failing that, provide basic orientation services to students who request it. Keep in mind here that this argument is employed only to make this a matter of justice. It's a way of arguing that the school has an obligation/responsibility; it's not the only reason I favour universal design. Now, I've seen at least two NABS leaders take positions that differ from mine on the orientation question. It's not so much that they oppose making information accessible or the school providing some assistance if the school is able to, but neither person seemed to think that any effort should be spent on holding the school accountable for failing to offer equal access to information on campus. In both cases, necessity and personal responsibility was emphasized. For many years, students have figured out effective ways of getting around campus despite the lack of equal access to information. So why spend energy fighting for more equal access to location information when we already possess these strategies. Moreover, these are skills we need to learn when we enter the work force, so the inconvenience we put up with now will benefit us in the long run. I don't dispute either point. My argument in favour of the school's having a responsibility is based solely on the idea of equal access to information. But I actually don't want to debate the issue of whose responsibility it is so much as use this as an example of where I think the NFB generally gets it wrong. Here, we have two potential presidents of NABS who seem to me to hold the position that promoting universal design on campus, which would make it easier to independently find locations, is not a big priority. It might be nice if schools did this, but we're not going to push them on it. I've never meant to suggest that the NFB always opposes universal design of the environment. I've offered the example of quiet cars where the NFB has actively fought to bring in mandatory requirements, but, in my admittedly limited experience, the debate always seems to hinge on whether the environmental modifications are necessary. If the modifications aren't totally necessary, if we can use an alternative technique that makes the modifications less necessary, then we shouldn't fight for the modifications. For me, this really looks like a failure to see the big picture and the long-term goal. As mentioned above, I generally make the argument for universal design in terms of fairness because I think it's the most persuasive way to make it, but I think there are tremendous long-term and unforeseen positives as well. Back to the case of orientation, I realize that we already possess techniques for learning locations on campus, that the skills we acquire will help us in the future, and that it would require a significant effort to get schools to provide equal access to information, but think of how much time, money, and energy is saved in the long run if we successfully fight for this stuff now. I can put out an ad and hire someone to give me a couple hours of orientation, and this might even be a good skill for me to learn, but I'm really the only one who benefits from this. If, on the other hand, I am successful in encouraging my school to begin implementing modifications in accordance with the principle of universal design, every blind student who comes to the campus after me will benefit. Not only that, every blind person who happens to visit the campus will benefit. As a Ph.D student, I'm expected to travel to different universities in Canada and internationally to present at, or attend, various conferences. The thought of having to go to campuses that are completely foreign, with absolutely no ability to arrange for any kind of orientation while on campus (I'm only going for two days after all), and with no way of independently orienting myself either before or after arriving on campus, is not very appealing to me. If you fight to make your campus more accessible, and I happen to visit it, it benefits me. Moreover, as Alena has pointed out, universal design tends to have unforeseen benefits. For example, any time you could get information that is currently being expressed only visually to be expressed audibly or tactily as well, you could potentially benefit someone with a print disability who isn't blind. So I can go ahead and hire someone for two hours, or I can ask a friend, but these things have little lasting benefit for anyone other than me. Promoting universal design on campus, however, will benefit future students, visitors to campus, and a variety of people who aren't themselves blind. It just seems to me that the NFB too often ignores these long-term and unforeseen benefits. I can understand the desire to want to examine each case individually, but often, as I see it, the question of necessity receives too much weight, and too much emphasis is put on personal responsibility. Personal responsibility is fine, but we also need to think about how our efforts can have the most significant and wide-reaching impact. The idea that modifications are unnecessary, or will reflect badly on us, or will become a cruch, these beliefs can cause the NFB to miss the big picture and the long-term benefit that can come from these modifications. What I've said is not meant to chastize NABS leadership, or make simplistic generalizations about the NFB. My goal was to clarify my understanding of the NFB's position with respect to universal design by introducing a concrete example that doesn't have a lot of bagage and is particularly important to students. Given the remarks I saw from NABS leaders on the topic of orientation on campus, I can't help but maintain my view that the NFB doesn't tend to think of universal design as a very high priority. In a few cases, the NFB fights for it, in a few cases, the NFB actively fights against it, and in most cases, the attitude is that it would be nice but isn't worth expending any energy over. Given my views about fairness and equal access, and given the long-term and wide-reaching benefits that I believe come from promoting universal design, I can't help thinking that the NFB's is the wrong attitude to have about universal design. Regards, Marc From troubleclark at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 13:50:23 2009 From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:50:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab> <914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer> <20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: Yeah Joseph I did the same thing when I was at CCB. I ran into it without my sleepshades on to. I ran into it once or twice. Nathan On 6/23/09, Dezman Jackson wrote: > I managed to miss the jewelry box the whole time I was there. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Alawami" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:54 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > > > Loil. Reminds me of the julery box that everyone including me used to smac > in to. Some were lucky until the day the graduated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of T. Joseph Carter > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:49 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > > More thread necromancy for Joseph, yay! > > At CCB, there is a thing we call the DNA pole. Just about every student at > the center has left some on it when they smack into it. I managed to avoid > it because I'm left-handed and naturally tended to find it with my cane. At > least, I managed until one day at the very end when not even wearing a > sleepshade or anything, SMACK! > > Joseph > > > On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 03:25:38PM -0700, Sarah Alawami wrote: >>I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. >>The thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that >>were not moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far >>away. I wandered in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to the > center. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Angela fowler >>Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM >>To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 >> >>Jim, >> Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test >>drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the >>hang of it you will find it a big help. >> A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the >>neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X >>street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that > landmark. >>If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you >>have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, >>and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. >> If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime >>detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you >>have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been >>using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. >> Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more > comfortable >>you will be with it. >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>Behalf Of Jim Reed >>Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM >>To: MAB List; NABS mail list >>Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 >> >>Hey all, >>The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be >>hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it >>more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >>sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >>basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then >>overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >>sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how > I got turned around the first time. >>I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake >>when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't >>passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, large >>parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very > large sidewalks. >>and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >>street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >>on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic >>at midnight, I was safe). >> >>I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >>make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel > vulnerable. >> >>Thanks, >>Jim >> >>"From compromise and things half done, >>Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>And when at last the fight is won, >>... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix. >>com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmai >>l.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >>40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 18:09:06 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] What to do with a broken cane? Message-ID: <325929.87935.qm@web65706.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I was about to throw away my broken cane, but before I do so, I wanted to check with you all to make sure there is nothing else that can be done with it. For example, are there any organizations that refurbish blind equipment? If so,  my cane only needs to be soddered and re-tipped, it would be nearly as good as new.  I'm sure a poor blind guy in the U.S. or overseas would be happy to have it. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 18:28:59 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:28:59 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane In-Reply-To: <191267.11064.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <191267.11064.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim and all, Remember that you can order a free cane online from the NFB: http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Free_Cane_Program.asp?SnID=955764290 Arielle On 6/23/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Well, my first cane lasted all of two weeks. The cane got caught between a > crack on the sidewalk and my hip, and the result was a cane bent beyond > recognition, and then it snaped when I tried straightening it. When I got > home,  I tried a makeshift splint and duct tape job, and the result probably > would have been sufficient to get me home had I been forced to make such a > repair enroute, but I wouldnt willingly go out with a cane in such a > condition. > > I would not rank Ambutech's folding aluminum cane very highly. > > This sucks, I am out of a cane just when I was begining to feel comfortable > with it. > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 19:29:36 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:29:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 In-Reply-To: References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab><914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer><20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <8243DD7E3CB54557ACE47BB687400870@sacomputer> Lucky! I had blood running down my lip when I went back to the center. It was gross! We used to, and still do call it getting initiated over there. You can't feel it with your cane as it is about 4 foot off the ground and about 3 feet out? I think? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dezman Jackson Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 9:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 I managed to miss the jewelry box the whole time I was there. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Loil. Reminds me of the julery box that everyone including me used to smac in to. Some were lucky until the day the graduated. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 More thread necromancy for Joseph, yay! At CCB, there is a thing we call the DNA pole. Just about every student at the center has left some on it when they smack into it. I managed to avoid it because I'm left-handed and naturally tended to find it with my cane. At least, I managed until one day at the very end when not even wearing a sleepshade or anything, SMACK! Joseph On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 03:25:38PM -0700, Sarah Alawami wrote: >I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. >The thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that >were not moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far >away. I wandered in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to the center. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Angela fowler >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Jim, > Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test >drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the >hang of it you will find it a big help. > A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the >neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X >street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed that landmark. >If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you >have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, >and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. > If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime >detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you >have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been >using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. > Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more comfortable >you will be with it. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Jim Reed >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM >To: MAB List; NABS mail list >Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Hey all, >The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be >hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it >more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then >overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out how I got turned around the first time. >I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake >when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't >passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, large >parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and very large sidewalks. >and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic >at midnight, I was safe). > >I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > >Thanks, >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix. >com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gma il.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 19:34:39 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:34:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness In-Reply-To: <20090622230751.a0rnmc71k0g4w0o4@webmail.utoronto.ca> References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090622230751.a0rnmc71k0g4w0o4@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <16CBF9B7046C4DEF8A8758D2D61357B0@sacomputer> I'd rather have people help me too much then try and lead me astray. I hear a talk I think, Can't remember what it was called, about throwhing a nickle or something along this conversation. I might get tomatos thrown at me for these comments but ah well. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:08 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness Hi Jim, Abso-flippin'-lutely people are weird. A cane brings out the best, and the worst, in people. Just learn to smile and be polite (unless you feel in danger) and you'll be all good. I'm sure we all have many stories of the oddballs we've met along the way. Bear in mind that most people are well-intentioned, and will more than likely help you too much than try to lead you astray. Happy travels, Sarah Quoting Jim Reed : > Hey all, > > Me and my cane took a walk last night, and my walk just happened to > coincide with the end of a festival at the park, so allot of people > were out. > > First, I was working on non-visual travel, and as usual, I got > myself lost, so I st oped where I was and I was trying to listen for > traffic or anything else that might give me a clue, then this guy > started yelling from his porch "are you OK, do you need any help, do > you know where you are, where are you going..." I yelled back that > "I was fine, that I did not need any help, and that I was trying to > figure it out for myself". I continued to stand there, trying to > figure it out,  and trying to listen for traffic, and this guy > continued to stand there and yell. It got to the point where he was > being so distracting that I just said "F This",  and moved on, thus > a learning opportunity was lost. > > Then, a little later, I was crossing the footbridge that borders > campus, and I stopped walking because I thought I heard a footstep, > and I did not want to whack anyone with my cane. Then, this lady > approaches me, introduces herself, shakes my hand, tells me that she > had been following me for a block or two, and then she tells me that > "you are doing great", and that "I admire you". I politely said > thanks; I didn't have the heart to tell her that I really wasn't > blind (in the way she expected me to be blind, anyway). But really, I > was thinking, "First of all, why is this lady admiring me? All I am > doing is taking a walk, which nearly every human on the planet can > do." Then, I thought, "how does this lady know I am "doing great"? > She has no clue where I started, or where I was going. She has no > clue if I am lost two miles in the wrong direction, nor does she know > whether or not I fell off of half a dozen curbs in the process of > getting to school." > >  I guess I should be proud of the fact that after only one or two > weeks of cane travel experience, that I already put off a vibe that > tells others "I know what I am doing". > > I guess this lady struck me as odd because her views on blindness > are so much different than mine. This lady is willing to assume, > after observing a blind stranger travel two blocks, that I am fully > competent and capable. I would not be willing to make that > assumption. Why is this lady making such assumptions about me? I am > not complaining that this lady thinks I am capable,  I am > complaining because this lady feels she has all the information she > needs to make such a decision after watching me walk only two > blocks. My point is, by walking two blocks, I have not proven > anything, this lady has no basis by which to judge me, be it > positive or negative judgments. Let me prove myself, let me earn > your complements and your admiration; don't just give them to me. > > Thoughts? > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn > pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still > unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar > %40utoronto.ca > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 19:57:09 2009 From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] What to do with a broken cane? Message-ID: <639926.28334.qm@web30901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jim, It is in your best interest to keep the broken cane for spare parts since another cane may need a link or so. I have been in positions where I needed to rewire the alastic from one cane to another due to one of the coards snapping. Also, keep the tips; you, never know when an extra one will become useful. --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Jim Reed wrote: > From: Jim Reed > Subject: [nabs-l] What to do with a broken cane? > To: "NABS mail list" > Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 2:09 PM > Hey all, > > I was about to throw away my broken cane, but before I do > so, I wanted to check with you all to make sure there is > nothing else that can be done with it. For example, are > there any organizations that refurbish blind equipment? If > so,  my cane only needs to be soddered and re-tipped, it > would be nearly as good as new.  I'm sure a poor blind guy > in the U.S. or overseas would be happy to have it. > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > >       > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 23 20:06:25 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane Message-ID: <632649.4990.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> They are not long enough for me; they only go to 63 inches. "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Arielle Silverman wrote: From: Arielle Silverman Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 12:28 PM Hi Jim and all, Remember that you can order a free cane online from the NFB: http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Free_Cane_Program.asp?SnID=955764290 Arielle On 6/23/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Well, my first cane lasted all of two weeks. The cane got caught between a > crack on the sidewalk and my hip, and the result was a cane bent beyond > recognition, and then it snaped when I tried straightening it. When I got > home,  I tried a makeshift splint and duct tape job, and the result probably > would have been sufficient to get me home had I been forced to make such a > repair enroute, but I wouldnt willingly go out with a cane in such a > condition. > > I would not rank Ambutech's folding aluminum cane very highly. > > This sucks, I am out of a cane just when I was begining to feel comfortable > with it. > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From vgc732 at optonline.net Tue Jun 23 20:57:31 2009 From: vgc732 at optonline.net (Vincent Chaney) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:57:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Seeing Eye 80th Anniversary on ThruOurEyes Internet Radio Message-ID: Come One, Come All, Please join Joseph Ruffalo, host of the ThruOurEyes Internet Radio Show, as he focuses on The Seeing Eye's 80th Anniversary. Joe will discuss the events which have been held so far and celebrations yet to come. Joe will interview: Jim Kutsch, President and CEO; Rivi Israel, instructor; Roger Woodhour, volunteer puppy raiser; and Vincent Chaney, Seeing Eye Graduate. Joe and Jim will discuss The Seeing Eye's programs and will touch upon the history of the school and the mission it continues to fulfill today and into the future. Joe will then speak with Rivi Israel who is one of the instructors at The Seeing Eye. They will talk about Rivi's experiences training these special dogs and the instruction of the human partners once they have been matched with their dogs. The conversation will then turn to Roger Woodhour and the role of puppy raisers. Some of the topics Joe and Roger will cover include the Puppy Development Program, early training of the pups, and exposure to the world that the dogs receive in preparation for their future as Seeing Eye dogs. Joe will also talk with Vincent Chaney who partners with Randolph, a Yellow Labrador, and review Vincent's 28 years of working with 3 Seeing Eye dogs. Their conversation will touch upon traveling into New York City to work, and their trips around the country for pleasure, work and the NFB National Conventions. We especially wish to thank The Seeing Eye for their acceptance and participation in the show dedicated to and in honor of their 80th anniversary. For those wishing to listen the evening of the show, the link to the ThruOurEyes.org - WTOE Radio Home - Windows Internet Explorer is: http://www.thruoureyes.org/ The Wednesday, June 24th show will air at 5 PM PDT, 6 PM MDT, 7 PM CDT and 8 PM EDT. We are hoping that anyone who has an interest in the history of guide dogs, or in The Seeing Eye who pioneered dog guide services here in the USA, or who just has a love of dogs will listen in for this special show. The ThruOurEyes Internet Radio Show is also available via an Internet Podcast. Should you miss the show and wish to listen, the information is available on JAWS friendly links on http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html Vincent Chaney, NFBNJ Diabetes Division President , Co-chair Lead NJAGDU From commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 23 21:04:01 2009 From: commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net (Kevin Wassmer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:04:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane References: <191267.11064.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7165A18AE1014F55B66B4BCEDD3FAE67@usore540475a8f> I ordered a free cane. I have a question though. Can you only order 1 free cane? Or can you order as many as you want? Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane Hi Jim and all, Remember that you can order a free cane online from the NFB: http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Free_Cane_Program.asp?SnID=955764290 Arielle On 6/23/09, Jim Reed wrote: > Well, my first cane lasted all of two weeks. The cane got caught between a > crack on the sidewalk and my hip, and the result was a cane bent beyond > recognition, and then it snaped when I tried straightening it. When I got > home, I tried a makeshift splint and duct tape job, and the result > probably > would have been sufficient to get me home had I been forced to make such a > repair enroute, but I wouldnt willingly go out with a cane in such a > condition. > > I would not rank Ambutech's folding aluminum cane very highly. > > This sucks, I am out of a cane just when I was begining to feel > comfortable > with it. > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net From commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net Tue Jun 23 21:04:48 2009 From: commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net (Kevin Wassmer) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:04:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 References: <7234.24731.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><51C8A357DFF74324B48C01BA411854A8@angelab><914C5B0DEB984AFF8DBB38E7C6427E64@sacomputer><20090623004917.GW12990@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <2B82596EBFB34899B1B75F7CEFA0435E@usore540475a8f> I smaked in to that once and that was enough for me. Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Angela fowler" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Ah, the famous pole. It's in a perfect spot, isn't it? I creased my forehead on that sucker a couple times. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Alawami Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:55 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 Loil. Reminds me of the julery box that everyone including me used to smac in to. Some were lucky until the day the graduated. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of T. Joseph Carter Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:49 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 More thread necromancy for Joseph, yay! At CCB, there is a thing we call the DNA pole. Just about every student at the center has left some on it when they smack into it. I managed to avoid it because I'm left-handed and naturally tended to find it with my cane. At least, I managed until one day at the very end when not even wearing a sleepshade or anything, SMACK! Joseph On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 03:25:38PM -0700, Sarah Alawami wrote: >I remember in ther lcb there was one parkinglot everyone got lost in. >The thing felt like pavement and you realised it when you hit cars that >were not moving and the trafic on trenton sounded suddenly very far >away. I wandered in to that parkinglot every time I traveled back to >the center. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Angela fowler >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:06 AM >To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Jim, > Just wanted to say congratulations on taking that cane for a test >drive and keeping after it despite the frustrations. Once you get the >hang of it you will find it a big help. > A couple of points, do you know the general orientation of the >neighborhood in which you live? What I mean is, if I'm walking down X >street and toward X landmark I'm walking south if I have not passed >that landmark. >If I walk down my driveway and turn right, I'm walking east. Once you >have that down you can keep your direction easier. I was walking east, >and I turned left, so now I'm walking north. > If you get an NFB cane, I think you will have a much easier dime >detecting the change from concrete to asphalt which indicates that you >have drifted into the street. As for large parking lots, I've been >using a cane all my life and I still hate them LOL. > Once again, good work. The more you use the cane, the more comfortable >you will be with it. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >Behalf Of Jim Reed >Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 12:15 AM >To: MAB List; NABS mail list >Subject: [nabs-l] cane travel trip 2 > >Hey all, >The mobility part is easy, its the orientation part that is going to be >hard to master. I decided to wear my sunglasses at night to make it >more challenging, I think sunglasses are a good compramize to >sleepshades at night, at least for now while Im trying to learn the >basics. With the sunglasses on, I got turned around once, and then >overshot my house by two blocks. When I got lost I took off my >sunglasses and was able to find my way. I'm still trying to figure out >how I got turned around the first time. >I ended up heading west when I wanted to go east. I realized my mistake >when I was walking past my gym in the wrong direction. If I hadn't >passed the gym, I'd be one county over by now. Oh, by the way, large >parking lots are a pain as well. As are streets without sidewalks. and >very large sidewalks. >and wheel chair accessable curbs that allow you to breeze into the >street without knowing your in the street until you run into the curb >on the other side (I was on quiet residential streets with no traffic >at midnight, I was safe). > >I did get nervous when I heard some people somewhere near me; a cane >make you an awfully big target. I'm a big guy, its not often I feel vulnerable. > >Thanks, >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix. >com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmai >l.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph% >40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/fowlers%40syix.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 21:47:45 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:47:45 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane In-Reply-To: <632649.4990.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <632649.4990.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Sorry; I forgot that the free canes have a more limited length selection. You should be able to buy a 50/50 cane which folds in half for $10, or a rigid or telescoping 70-inch or 72-inch fiberglass cane for $25. Arielle On 6/24/09, Jim Reed wrote: > They are not long enough for me; they only go to 63 inches. > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > From: Arielle Silverman > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 12:28 PM > > Hi Jim and all, > > Remember that you can order a free cane online from the NFB: > > http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Free_Cane_Program.asp?SnID=955764290 > > Arielle > > On 6/23/09, Jim Reed wrote: >> Well, my first cane lasted all of two weeks. The cane got caught between a >> crack on the sidewalk and my hip, and the result was a cane bent beyond >> recognition, and then it snaped when I tried straightening it. When I got >> home,  I tried a makeshift splint and duct tape job, and the result >> probably >> would have been sufficient to get me home had I been forced to make such a >> repair enroute, but I wouldnt willingly go out with a cane in such a >> condition. >> >> I would not rank Ambutech's folding aluminum cane very highly. >> >> This sucks, I am out of a cane just when I was begining to feel >> comfortable >> with it. >> >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 22:38:39 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:38:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane References: <191267.11064.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <7165A18AE1014F55B66B4BCEDD3FAE67@usore540475a8f> Message-ID: <4110FA46183E4755B00A95EF34E2F3A1@Dezman> Kevin, I think it's once every six months. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Wassmer" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:04 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane >I ordered a free cane. I have a question though. Can you only order 1 free >cane? Or can you order as many as you want? > > > Cause its been 18 days > Since I first held you > But to me it feels just like > It feels like a lifetime > I'm trying hard to re-arrange > Some say its the hardest thing to do > But that's another 18 days > Without you.. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane > > > Hi Jim and all, > > Remember that you can order a free cane online from the NFB: > > http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Free_Cane_Program.asp?SnID=955764290 > > Arielle > > On 6/23/09, Jim Reed wrote: >> Well, my first cane lasted all of two weeks. The cane got caught between >> a >> crack on the sidewalk and my hip, and the result was a cane bent beyond >> recognition, and then it snaped when I tried straightening it. When I got >> home, I tried a makeshift splint and duct tape job, and the result >> probably >> would have been sufficient to get me home had I been forced to make such >> a >> repair enroute, but I wouldnt willingly go out with a cane in such a >> condition. >> >> I would not rank Ambutech's folding aluminum cane very highly. >> >> This sucks, I am out of a cane just when I was begining to feel >> comfortable >> with it. >> >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Thu Jun 11 14:40:47 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Blooworth) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:40:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 References: <752416.15087.qm@web65715.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><20090610105651.k1sy47oq4ok8g0ow@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <28BCEF2227634E7198B5134592E8F77A@teal6e6857f643> Jim i remember the first time i could go out alone and feel safe. It is an amazing feeling of self sufficiency. I recommend first starting out taking it slow and check out the surroundings until you get used to it. It is good that you use the flashlight but you should probably work on not using it because there is going to be a day when you dont have the flashlight that you rely on and you need to trust the cane, it will be your best friend. Also with taking it slow it will give you a minute to pick up on curbs or steps in general. Also use your other senses. I have no vision and some hearing loss but i can detect open spaces or walls by the way noise bounces off them, call it a 6th sense. As for the cane there are a few different types and you need to play around with it alittle and see what makes you feel more comfortable. Personally i use a KyOFB cane because the convienance of it folding but Tonia at the McDowell center in louisville Ky told me about one that slides into itself rather than folding. Also with the OFB cane its alittle heavier making me feel alittle safer but it is the cane that i started out with and have had traning with in my 2 and 1/2 years of blindness. I do have an NFB cane that i got through the free white cane program on NFB.ORG and yes it is more efficient but i feel like i am going to run into something and break it so it is a matter of finding what works for you best. I started out with a 50 inch cane and my local instructor told me i was hunched over alittle and gave me a 52 inch cane and now people think i am taller because i have better posture and i can feel further in front of me letting me know what to expect. I also use constant contact which "slows you down" but it also lets you see uneven sidewalk found frequently in Kentucky however in grass or gravel 2 touch tap is better to use so learning them both is useful. As for teaching yourself i have learned that just like anything else except braille learning your way is better and you need to play with it alittle. At school i had my friends walk with me and tell me what to look for if i do it right or if i do it wrong. It is good to have someone sighted the first couple tries until you get confortable with the area but that is your choice. I agree some instructors are better than others since i have had my fair share of instructors but you need to have confidence in the instructor. Don't be scared to ask questions. Street names, the sound of traffic, and landmarks like grass or pavement are all important for cane travel. I wish you the best of luck in your cane travel and really dont worry i have not yet met anybody that didnt have problems the first time and sometimes the second. I personally dont like to say i am lost....simply exploring. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane Travel Training: Report Number 1 Hi Jim, Congratulations on getting your first cane, and especially on taking it for a test-drive on your own! It's great to see that you've already begun feeling the confidence and ease of travel that the cane brings. Don't worry, everyone's cane travel journey is paved with plenty of less-than-fun experiences and blunders as we get used to the process. I would highly recommend that you order a long NFB cane (one that's 2-4 inches shorter than you are). You can get one for free from the NFB Website if money is an issue. It's also great that you will be coming to convention. By all means bring your cane and/or pick up a long NFB cane at convention to practice. I can talk to some folks and see if we can find someone to give you a little informal lesson on technique and basic hotel navigation, if you are interested. The other element to nonvisual travel besides good cane technique, which I'm sure you already figured out, is keeping track of where you are and where you're going. This process is tricky for many of us at the beginning, but is relatively easy to master with a few simple skills. Perhaps the skill that might seem most foreign to you as someone who used to be fully sighted is keeping track of cardinal directions--north, east, south, and west--and using these to stay on track. The sun is your friend--in the morning it comes from the east, at midday it comes from the south, and in the late afternoon it comes from the west. Try walking around outside during the day and keeping track of which cardinal direction you're going in--and use a compass if necessary--and then try doing it again at night when you don't have sun cues, until you get used to it. Listening to what side the traffic is on and counting how many blocks you've walked is also part of it--hopefully your instructor will teach you these things if you're proactive about it. You could maybe also talk to someone in your affiliate, like Dan Burke or Jim Marks, about having a few extra cane travel/orientation lessons before you see your instructor again. And remember, getting lost is just part of the process and something all of us have experienced--all of us have stories (some funny, others painful!) It's awesome that you're not afraid to go out, explore and teach yourself new things along the way. Arielle On 6/11/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: > > > hi Jim, > Firstly, congratulations on going it alone so soon. That's really > great, and with that attitude you'll learn quickly. Your wrist > shouldn't hurt though, so perhaps checking with an instructor once you > get one to ensure you're holding it right would be a good idea. Don't > slow down just because of the cane, as long as you're not reckless you > should be fine. don't lose faith in your instructor yet. Referring to > her as "the worst instructor ever" probably isn't the best way to > begin your relationship. once you have more than one instructor, > you'll be better able to judge who's good and who's not. > Hearing the cane can be helpful, as sometimes it can tell you if you > need to avoid a puddle jor if you're coming to a sewer grate. You'll > get used to the sound eventually. roller tips are louder than most, so > if it really bothers you, you might consider geting a diferent tip. As > for getting stuck in things, this will happen less as you develop your > technique. This is also reduced if you slide your cane rather than tap > it. > As someone who has very little useable vision, I always find it > helpful to know where I am all the time. That being said, using the > vision you have and flashlights like you suggested makes sense for > you. As for focussing on cane travel, remember it is an essential > skill you must learn. As you become more comfortable with it, you'll > focus on it less and less. > sorry for my verbosity, but i hope this helps. > Sarah > > > > > Quoting Jim Reed : > >> Hey all, >> >> I just got through my first cane travel lesson, and I had the worst >> O/M instructor ever, me! You see, the VR O/M instructor came to my >> house today, we talked for an hour, she gave me the cane and left. >> She told me I might be able to get one lesson before the end of >> June. And she also told me not to use the cane until I had a >> training session. I'm sorry, but you dont give me a new tool or toy >> and tell me not to uae or play with it. Of course I took the cane >> for a spin. It is a 64 inch ambutech folding aluminum cane, with a >> roller tip. To test for length, I did the test suggested by the >> author of "Care and Feeding of the Long White Cane": I took my cane, >> swinging it as I normaly would, walking at a speed I normally >> would, and I walked straight towards a wall. The idea is to stop as >> soon as your cane hits the walll, and then walk to the wall. >> Apparantly, if the cane is the right length, you should be able to >> take two full steps after your cane detects >> an obstacle, without having your face or shin detect the obastacle. >> I was able to manage maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a step between the cane >> recognizing the wall and me running into it. I dont have the time or >> patience to half-ass anything, I need a longer cane. >> >> My first impression of the cane: Ouch! Damn it my wrist hurts. I >> have long legs and I walk fast. I tried maintaining the "step left- >> swing right, step right-swing lef"t rythm, but fairly quickly my >> wrist got tired and my cane swings became less frequent, thus less >> effective. Additionally, I developed a "hot spot" on my palm; I know >> from plenty of hiking experience that "hot spots" turn to blisters >> very quickly. >> >> I walked 11 blocks total, to the gym and back; some blocks had >> minimal street light, some blocks had no light (I am totally nigh >> blind). I felt confident and I walked fast. In between corners, the >> cane travel was easy (althoug I did noit run into any obstacles on >> the sidewaljk). The travel may have been a bit too easy, as I >> allowed my cane to lead the way and my thoughts to follow and wander >> (much as thoughts should wander on a pointless midnight walk). >> Anyhow, I very shortly lost track of what block I was on, however I >> brought a flashlight with me, so I was able to easily figure out >> where I was. Additionally, I missed 80% of the downsteps on curbs >> that I was not able to first detect visually. That little 4 inch >> drop just wasnt enough for me and my cane to regiser that the curb >> was there. >> >> Despite my newness to the cane, I felt myself being able to "stride >> out", and it felt good to do so. I am not sure how much time the >> cane knocked off my travel time, but what it did do was allow me to >> feel more safe and confident traveling at night. Dispite the fact >> that I dislike walking as a form of travel, I intend >> to make regular night walks a part of my routine. Hop[efully, if I walk >> enough blocks, I will run into situations that will test and expand my >> skills. >> >> I did notice that I felt much more comfortable and confident >> "shorelining" along the non-curb side of the sidewalk. I lost >> confidence when I felt myself nearing the curb, and I also lost >> confidence when I was on an angled slope, such as a driveway. Oddlty >> enough, I instinctivly found myself following my cane: if my cane >> dropped off the edge of the curb and rode along the street for a >> while, I found myself angling towards the street, even though I knew >> I did not want to go that way, and I knew there was a rolled ankle >> in my future if I continued that way. >> >> Oh, byu the way, I've used my cane on only one trip, and I damn near >> broke the thing. The tip got caught in what I believe was a chain >> link fence, and all of a sudden the cane sounder different. >> Fortunatly, the tip of the cane had its own folding joint, and >> apparantly the fence provided enough pressure on the joint to remove >> the tip from its normal position. The internal cord held, and the >> tip retuned to its normal position, but I have the feeling that I >> may need something as strong as an aluminum cane. >> >> Other than the fact that my wrist is sore, it was a positive >> experience, and I intend to do it again tomarrow night. It was >> really nice to be able to walk at night, even if it was a bit loud. >> Do they make a quiet cane? To me, it does not seem to me like the >> cane provides any auditory feedback that can't also be detected via >> touch, and I'd like to be able to hear myself think. >> >> A couple of questions: >> How do I better detect curbs and keep track of what street i'm on? >> How do I stay focused on something as dull as cane travel? Since I >> still have vision, is it ok to rely on a flashlight to check out >> street signs? If I know that the main streets are 8th, 13th, and >> 15th, do I really need to know that I am in between 9th and 10th, or >> is it ok to find out exactly where I am once I hit one of those >> main roads? Is the wrist pain unavoidle until I become conditioned >> to using a cane? What is the absolute strongest cane material for >> the lightest weight? I was walking at max speed, I was walking as >> fast as I walk during the day, is it reasonable and safe for me to >> expect myself to walk that fast or should I take it down a notch? >> Is it a good idea for me to teach myself cane travel, or should I >> really wait for the O/M instructor? >> >> Thanks, >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Sun Jun 14 01:25:18 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Blooworth) Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:25:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions References: <212666187.3814921244866983554.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <5D4AB15DBB35494D80A201F1E63B6A68@Ashley> Message-ID: in a new area sometimes family or friends are the best to teach you because they are more available. If you do have a family member or friend teach you just be sure to ask street names, and what you would find if you do it right or if you do it wrong -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] mobility questions > Hi Amy, > I struggle with the same thing. When going to a new area it takes lots of > repetition and practice to learn my way. As you travel look for > landmarks. Maybe a GPS or tactile map of the area will help. You could > have a reader or someone make you a tactile map using graphing tape or > whatever works for you. > I'd say have someone show you who you feel comfortable with. > Try family first since they're more available. Mobility instructors have > high caseloads and can't see you often. > But if family doesn't work then yes go with a mobility instructor. I > found mobility instructors to explain things better than friends or > family. > > Good luck. > Ashley > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amy Sabo" > To: "NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS" > Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 12:23 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] mobility questions > > >> hello all, >> >> well, some of you know that i moved from littleton, co to englewood, co >> about a month ago or so and, it's been great so far but, for one thing >> indeed! i'm having to learn new routes and find my way back and forth >> from the bus stops and back to my place. my parents showed me when they >> were to help us move in but, it was only one time. i thought it seemed >> easy but, i have tried to do this successfully and, both times when i go >> on my own i get lost! >> >> it's very frustrating that a person like me who is a confident traveler >> and a good one to have this difficulity. and, i have lived in this area >> for over 6 years. so, here's my question what do you do when you somewhat >> know the area but, you still don't? do you have a family teach this to >> you or have some mobility done through a state agency like dvr? what have >> any of you guys do when learjning a new route or area after you have >> moved there successfully and be confident in dioing this independtally? >> >> also, i have a very hard times on putting on my cane tipe since i don't >> have strength ibn my hands so how can i put on my cane tips and replace >> the old ones easily and independtally? >> >> thanks again and i will talk to you all soon! >> >> >> hugs, >> from amy >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4152 (20090612) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 04:57:22 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Blooworth) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:57:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help References: <47A336A203A84D4AA98D37525960DD4C@windows4c0ed96> Message-ID: <48D45603EBD647ED888B5DA0350BCCF8@teal6e6857f643> Hi Ginnie well for me going to a very small private catholic college at the beginning of my first semester student support services had a peer mentor help me to class before my O/M started but i would have them walk with me rather than lead me sighted guide. Then second semester i just had friends walk with me most of the time so that i could be comfortable with my routes. Also my school provided tutors, note-takers, held my mail in the mailroom rather than a code key locker, when i went to the cafeteria at the door they would take my card then ask me what i wanted, get it and help me to a seat. Also i had a scribe for every test, teachers would email me syllabi or handouts/worksheets. They were very accomodating and helpful of course it was under 700 people total and under 500 people who lived on campus. -Teal----- Original Message ----- From: "V Nork" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 3:47 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Research Paper Help > Hi all, Hope any of you can help me with some information for a research > topic on mobility. It involves a hypothetical question. What would > happen to a visually impaired student on your campus if he or she needed > help with orientation and mobility but had no funding from government or > social agencies? Let us say in this example the student already had basic > white cane skills, but just needed to have someone walk with them until > they had a route planned? Would the college or university offer direct > help? On my campus, such help is seen as the individual responsibility of > the blind student. It is simply sink or swim if one does not have help > or money to pay for it.It was suggested to me that someone who needed help > should post a flyer on college bulletin boards. It just seems to me that > is reasonable to think that some member of the college or university could > be designated to offer some assistance as a kind of mobility aideto do an > initial run through so a student could get to classes each semester. I > have tried to lobby for this in a low key way, but so far my suggestions > have fallen on unreceptive ears. My request for tactile maps has also > been seemingly ignored. Is this similar or not to the situation on your > campus? Thanks for any thoughts, Ginnie > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Mon Jun 15 13:06:01 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Blooworth) Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 08:06:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4B41BDBBAE7C452EA2870530B8F3A4F8@useripvq7z5u3t> Message-ID: <6C4102210ED04CC3880D488F9755D4D1@teal6e6857f643> hmm well jim ...sounds like you need a marshmello (sp) tip that way it won't get stuck in the cracks in the sidewalk. This tip rolls oppose to simply making a point at the end of the cane. If the Kentucky OFB cane hurts your wrist like that maybe an NFB cane would feel better. These already have the rounded tip at the end and they are lighter canes. The change of the tip i think will help with it stavving you in the gut (i used to do it all the time), and it may or may not help with the wrist and arm pain because you can simply "glide". Also a longer cane may be beneficial helping stand straighter and not "work as hard". Congrats on feeling more comfortable with your cane and venturing out indepentantly. Thats the only way you can really get the confidentce you need for independant travel. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain > Jim, > > Being 6'5, 280 myself. Try a 69' or 72' Iowa style with a disc > tip. Also try a pencil grip in addition to the fist grips, and I have no > problems using my stick from the side, and it prevents me from getting gut > pokes. > > Patrick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Reed" > To: "NABS mail list" > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:16 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain > > > Hey all, > The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be > spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to > call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad > that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable > to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the > meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has > one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different > grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with > the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side, on top of > the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of > the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the > middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top > of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the > side of the cane > > Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending > out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be > contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting > towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using > a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is > that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I > end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, > what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes > with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and > momentum that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe > bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away > from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I > touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole > vault. After > the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 > feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the > immovable object. I pity that cane. > > I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went > flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered > walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. > > Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated > > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pajohns1%40vt.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 01:31:16 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Blooworth) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:31:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: <88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643> Hi All Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid to talk to us any longer. In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to follow our dreams but still we are people. One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Hi all, > > According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an > emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members > of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused > with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but > prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the > attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral > component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's > reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or > anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are > slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good > at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to > read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us > preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What > the three all have in common is that, even though technically they > can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group > membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same > because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than > our individual strengths and weaknesses. > > My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is > what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we > get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they > still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as > a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people > feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing > to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). > > Arielle > > On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca wrote: >> >> >> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery slope. >> Sarah >> >> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >> >>> Hi all,, >>> >>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something out >>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>> >>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>> >>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>> >>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the LCB. >>>> I've >>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>> times >>>> so >>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so I >>>> can >>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>> there >>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>> we >>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane to >>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and bee >>>> in >>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is helping >>>> me >>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>> said >>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen >>>> in >>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>> steps >>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I >>>> can >>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>> say >>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I can >>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>> there >>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>> hope >>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>> morning. >>>> Hehaha! >>>> >>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do >>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>> second-class >>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>> the >>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>> of >>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>> sight >>>> in >>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>> leave >>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even within >>>> the >>>> disabled >>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>> perform >>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>> >>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>> fact >>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them how >>>> we >>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>> there >>>> are >>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". >>>> This >>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>> thirty >>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>> your >>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our own >>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>> we've >>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>> to >>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>> difference >>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>> you >>>> can >>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>> that >>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>> education, >>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" >>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>> know >>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who learn >>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And yet, >>>> on >>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as a >>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's >>>> going >>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. >>>> The >>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going >>>> to >>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no matter >>>> how >>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures >>>> out >>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>> training >>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical skills, >>>> but >>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>> blindness. >>>> >>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>> who >>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat >>>> us >>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>> our >>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend >>>> to >>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who >>>> treat >>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>> and >>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>> for >>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>> of >>>> the >>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>> the >>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>> own). >>>> >>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>> Is >>>> it >>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>> educating >>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what >>>> can >>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on >>>> the >>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>> tell >>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But >>>> for >>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>> still >>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>> educators >>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>> >>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central to >>>> how >>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means to >>>> be >>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Tue Jun 23 23:14:59 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Bloodworth) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:14:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane References: <191267.11064.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><7165A18AE1014F55B66B4BCEDD3FAE67@usore540475a8f> <4110FA46183E4755B00A95EF34E2F3A1@Dezman> Message-ID: <25557AE3AD044AB5BB7855B3FB0123E2@teal6e6857f643> yes Kevin i believe he is right. every 6 months and you can actually check it out online and it should tell you how often NFB.ORG. This is the reason i am not comfortable with the NFB cane though and it is hard to see different tactile textures. Best of luck, -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dezman Jackson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:38 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane > Kevin, > > I think it's once every six months. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kevin Wassmer" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:04 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane > > >>I ordered a free cane. I have a question though. Can you only order 1 free >>cane? Or can you order as many as you want? >> >> >> Cause its been 18 days >> Since I first held you >> But to me it feels just like >> It feels like a lifetime >> I'm trying hard to re-arrange >> Some say its the hardest thing to do >> But that's another 18 days >> Without you.. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane >> >> >> Hi Jim and all, >> >> Remember that you can order a free cane online from the NFB: >> >> http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Free_Cane_Program.asp?SnID=955764290 >> >> Arielle >> >> On 6/23/09, Jim Reed wrote: >>> Well, my first cane lasted all of two weeks. The cane got caught between >>> a >>> crack on the sidewalk and my hip, and the result was a cane bent beyond >>> recognition, and then it snaped when I tried straightening it. When I >>> got >>> home, I tried a makeshift splint and duct tape job, and the result >>> probably >>> would have been sufficient to get me home had I been forced to make such >>> a >>> repair enroute, but I wouldnt willingly go out with a cane in such a >>> condition. >>> >>> I would not rank Ambutech's folding aluminum cane very highly. >>> >>> This sucks, I am out of a cane just when I was begining to feel >>> comfortable >>> with it. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> "From compromise and things half done, >>> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >>> And when at last the fight is won, >>> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From sarah at growingstrong.org Tue Jun 23 23:45:15 2009 From: sarah at growingstrong.org (Sarah J. Blake) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:45:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] unsubbing for now Message-ID: <41587102287E4601B9BF8FA97A47F3CA@acere817fae0d8> Hi, all. I am a bit overloaded with mail at the moment and am juggling an internship, several professional presentations, and an upcoming teaching assistantship in an intensive first-year Greek course; so I am unsubbing for a while. I may be back as I sort out my Ph.D. options and begin the application process. If any of you would like to keep my name handy as a resource for consulting on accessibility of ancient languages or higher education in religious schools, please feel free to do so as these are my specialty areas. I am not able to keep up with the volume of mail on all lists but am happy to receive inquiries from new students in these areas who may need assistance. Sarah J. Blake E-Mail: sjblake at growingstrong.org http://www.growingstrong.org I'm protected by SpamBrave http://www.spambrave.com/ From AZNOR99 at aol.com Wed Jun 24 01:51:00 2009 From: AZNOR99 at aol.com (AZNOR99 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:51:00 EDT Subject: [nabs-l] IABS Travel Kits for Sale Message-ID: The Illinois Association of Blind Students will be selling IABS Travel Kits at the NFB Convention for $10 each. The kits include travel sizes of each of the following: - toothpaste - toothbrush - dental floss - mouthwash - hand sanitizer - tishue - hair comb - deoderant - sturdy, reusable plastic storage pouch The entire kit is TSA approved and can be taken in carry-on luggage. This travel kit is a great deal at only $10; and it conveniently has everything you'll need that the hotel doesn't give away for free. If you would like to purchase an IABS Travel kit, please do one of the following: - Visit the Illinois deligation during general session and ask for an IABS Board Member - Attend the NABS meeting and listen for the people selling the kits before and after the meeting - Pick up your hotel telephone, dial 0, and ask to be transferred to Alyson Slaughter or Ronza Othman The IABS Travel Kits make excellent gifts and are very useful to everyone. The proceeds from this fundraiser will be used to fund IABS programs and activities. Thank you for your continued support of the Illinois Student Division. Regards, Ronza Othman, Fundraising Chair and Treasurer Illinois Association of Blind Students **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004) From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 02:03:47 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:03:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: <88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643> References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca> <88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643> Message-ID: <38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> Teal, They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate against you because you have a disability. My fianc�e and I have been living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 housing . Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teal Blooworth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Hi All > > Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. > Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many > occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually > everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left > or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the > bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some > of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid to > talk to us any longer. > > In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. > Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind > person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology > class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a > student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the > girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and > knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind > people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and > stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we > have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to > follow our dreams but still we are people. > > One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask > questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are > curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they > will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a > big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is > understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking at > apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was > because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and friday > i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the june 29th > slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. discrimination > is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? > > -Teal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Hi all, >> >> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >> >> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >> >> Arielle >> >> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery slope. >>> Sarah >>> >>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>> >>>> Hi all,, >>>> >>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something out >>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>> >>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>> >>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>> >>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>> LCB. >>>>> I've >>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>> times >>>>> so >>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>> I >>>>> can >>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>> there >>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>> we >>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>> to >>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>> bee >>>>> in >>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>> helping >>>>> me >>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>> said >>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not happen >>>>> in >>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>> steps >>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that I >>>>> can >>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>> say >>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>> can >>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>> there >>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>> hope >>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>> morning. >>>>> Hehaha! >>>>> >>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we do >>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>> second-class >>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>> the >>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>> of >>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>> sight >>>>> in >>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>> leave >>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>> within >>>>> the >>>>> disabled >>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>> perform >>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>> >>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>> fact >>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>> how >>>>> we >>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>> there >>>>> are >>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get it". >>>>> This >>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>> thirty >>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>> your >>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>> own >>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>> we've >>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>> to >>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>> difference >>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>> you >>>>> can >>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>> that >>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>> education, >>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or "gut" >>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>> know >>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>> learn >>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>> yet, >>>>> on >>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>> a >>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, it's >>>>> going >>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child Braille. >>>>> The >>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is going >>>>> to >>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>> matter >>>>> how >>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he figures >>>>> out >>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>> training >>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>> skills, >>>>> but >>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>> blindness. >>>>> >>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>> who >>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and treat >>>>> us >>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>> our >>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often tend >>>>> to >>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people who >>>>> treat >>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>> and >>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>> for >>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>> the >>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>> own). >>>>> >>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>> Is >>>>> it >>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>> educating >>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, what >>>>> can >>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy on >>>>> the >>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>> tell >>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. But >>>>> for >>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>> still >>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>> educators >>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>> >>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>> to >>>>> how >>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>> to >>>>> be >>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 02:12:35 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Bloodworth) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:12:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness References: <293983.33325.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><54f02f10906221501i28370ed3k9c08021cf267090c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <67AEA717A510487D86198C6F1131A9D7@teal6e6857f643> Hello Actually Arielle I have had some ofthe same things happen. Different people would randomly tell me just how beautiful I am but i never really put those 2 things together and it makes since. Sometimes afterwards they make a comment like "I just dont know what i would do if i were blind" and that has made me think it before but never really put that together. As for people thinking we are not able to really do things i have had people really grab onto me before or at times nearly pick me up down stairs. I would joke and ask for a piggy back ride but you cannot really be offended by it. Even I had never met a visually impaired person before my going blind therefore i have an understanding of not knowing the human bodies way of compensating and abilities. You really do just have too educate them and let them kno how to help you. My favorite cheerleader saying will always be "good girl". This makes me wonder if a pat on the head will follow. To look on the positive side atleast you hav people who care enough to help you out oppose to ignoring your questions on the street. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness Hi Jim and all, It sounds like you’ve stumbled upon the more entertaining side of cane travel! Rest assured that all of us have experienced this weirdness at some point, to varying degrees. You’re right also to be a bit puzzled by the compliments you’ve started getting for merely walking down the street. This happens to me too, and I find it irritating for two reasons. First, I don’t believe the comments arise from people’s belief that I am fully competent and capable (as you mention). This is because in my experience, sighted people who actually believe I am capable of getting around don’t make these comments. On the other hand, upon further questioning, it often becomes apparent that the people who do make the comments don’t have much faith in my abilities after all. Rather, I think that when people tell me I’m admirable or amazing for walking a couple blocks down the street, they’re merely saying that I’m more competent than they expected, not that I’m fully competent. This also explains why people make the remarks even after we’ve made some travel mistake. Even if we mess up, bad, we’re still better at it than they expected, so it’s natural to feel like they didn’t expect much to begin with. The second reason it bugs me is that it seems like sometimes people feel like they have to offer me encouragement or “cheerleading” by saying things like “You’re doing great” or “You’re OK” as I walk by minding my own business. It’s almost like what you would say to a little kid who’s learning something for the first time. Similar is being patted on the shoulder by a stranger or being asked “Are you by yourself?” at the airport. Of course, it doesn’t feel good to be thought of either as childlike or as so depressed or unstable that we need their encouragement. So we do have the right to be annoyed by this stuff, but we also don’t have to be bitter or discouraged by it either. A sense of humor can be your best ally in these kinds of situations. Often when something like this happens there isn’t time to respond directly to the person, but we can laugh about it later (either to ourselves or to friends) which helps us realize that the subtle insults implied by this behavior don’t really mean anything. A couple weeks ago I was out at a restaurant with my boyfriend when a lady at a table next to us approached me and said out of the blue, “I know you don’t know who I am, but I just think you’re so beautiful!” Of course I had no idea what to say back to her so I just said “thanks” kind of awkwardly and after she walked away we both just started cracking up. In that situation it wasn’t even really clear that her comment was blindness-related (after all maybe I was just looking really great that night!) but it was strange enough that blindness seemed to at least partially factor in. She could have thought that just merely seeing a blind woman at a restaurant on a date like a normal 24-year-old was just so incredibly beautiful that she felt compelled to tell me (and after all, she never told him he was handsome!) But, in any case, we laughed about it and realized that in the grand scheme of things it wasn’t a big deal. Sometimes, there is time to turn the encounter into an educational opportunity. Once when I was at the airport and asked someone whether I was going the right way to get from baggage claim to the ground transportation exit on the other side of the terminal, the woman confirmed I was going the right way and then added, “But it’s scary!” Now, this route literally involved me walking in a straight line across flat tile. I’ll admit the outside curbs where all the shuttles and buses pull in can be a little scary, but this definitely wasn’t. The woman was going the same way so I tried to explain to her that actually I did this kind of thing a lot and to me it wasn’t really a big deal. I think by the end of the conversation she mainly started to get it at least a little bit. Sometimes just saying, “Thanks for the compliment, but for me it’s really not that big of a deal” and then elaborating with a little more detail about how cane travel works is enough to get the main point across. I also think there’s a lot to teach just by example. The guy who says he admires you might at first be saying it out of low expectations. But if he sees over time that you’re a good traveler, those expectations are likely to slowly get ratcheted up. Arielle On 6/23/09, David Dunphy wrote: > That's OK. Someone who saw me walking with my cane the other day said that > I > need to activate my sonar so I can cross the street. Go figure that! > >From David > > ***** > If you're tired of hearing the same old songs on your local radio station, > and if you can't find the variety you've always wanted, then check out the > station that I own and operate with a great group of broadcasters called > Radio360. You'll hear all types of music and programming, plus you're able > to control what you hear through requests, interaction with the djs, and > more! > To find out more about the station, visit us on the web at > http://www.radio360.us > Follow us on twitter at > http://www.twitter.com/radio360usa > or add us to your MySpace at > http://www.myspace.com/radio360usa > Come check us out, you won't be disappointed!!! > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From harryhogue at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 02:40:53 2009 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone Message-ID: <338209.57450.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> hello everyone, I jsut wanted to take a minute to say hello to everyone, old friends and new alike. It has been some time since I have posted to this list; I unsubscribed for a while when i got busy with other things. I hope to get active in it again and to keep everyone updated with what is going on with me. FYI, I will be in Boston August 1-29 at the Boston Language Institute doing certification to teach English as a Second Language, and then I will be working on getting a job -- either domesticly or abroad. I would rpefer to go ahead and get a job within the United States for a little while just to get my feet under me. Anyway, I will be in the Back Bay area, so if anyone is in that area and wants to hang out, or has recommendations for sites to visit on the weekend, restaurants, pubs, etc. just let me know. Thanks, and look forward to talking with all of you again. Harry From ccook01 at knology.net Wed Jun 24 03:49:47 2009 From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:49:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone In-Reply-To: <338209.57450.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <338209.57450.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Harry good luck with the ESL teaching Corey Check out my blog. http://www.blindrants.blogspot.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 10:40 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone > > hello everyone, > > I jsut wanted to take a minute to say hello to everyone, old friends and > new alike. It has been some time since I have posted to this list; I > unsubscribed for a while when i got busy with other things. I hope to get > active in it again and to keep everyone updated with what is going on with > me. FYI, I will be in Boston August 1-29 at the Boston Language Institute > doing certification to teach English as a Second Language, and then I will > be working on getting a job -- either domesticly or abroad. I would > rpefer to go ahead and get a job within the United States for a little > while just to get my feet under me. Anyway, I will be in the Back Bay > area, so if anyone is in that area and wants to hang out, or has > recommendations for sites to visit on the weekend, restaurants, pubs, etc. > just let me know. > > Thanks, and look forward to talking with all of you again. > > Harry > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ccook01%40knology.net > > From spangler.robert at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 04:02:02 2009 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:02:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain In-Reply-To: <397203.37382.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <397203.37382.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A41A53A.9070408@gmail.com> If you are very light with the cane and use the palm-up method it should not stick in cracks. Also, have it at belly-button level and out about an arm's length. Carbon fiber tends to be the lightest but not as bendy and will break easier. The fiberglass canes are very bendy but are slightly heavier. With the telescoping canes, you need to pull them all the way out but twist each piece tightly after pulling it out; this will keep it from collapsing on itself when traveling. On 6/22/2009 2:34 PM, Jim Reed wrote: > Joseph, > > My wrist, hand, and forearm pain have almost disappeared. > > You are right; at the moment I use a 64 inch aluminum ambutech cane with a golf drip and a roller tip. I am six foot four, and you are right, it is too short. I often dont find curbs or obstacles until it is too late, or until I am an inch or so away from disaster. I took a "Superman" style dive off the curb the other day for just that very reason. But there really isnt much I can do about it at the moment (not until I can get to convention and get another, longer cane). Pretty much, I need as long of a cane as possible, and for me, that means either a 70, or a 72 inch cane. I really have no preference for the style of my next cane, except I know I don't want a rigid cane. For me, a rigid cane will become 70 inches of, "where the hell do I put this thing?" Being that I dont/wont use my cane all the time, portability is key. Also, I am not convinced the roller tip is not causing some of my problems; I am not sure what that tip is or isnt feeling. However, > I breifly tried a disc-tip, and that tip got stuck in every single tinly crack on the sidewalk. Other than a disc or roller tip, are there any other tip styles avaliable? > > If I understand my cane options: > > Cane style: > Rigid canes are strong, light and sensitive, but a pain in the ass to transport > Telescoping canes are weak, but sensitive (and the one I tried liked to collapse itself) > folding canes are stronger that telescoping, but not as sensitive as telescoping or rigid > > Tips > rollers are heavyer and less sensitive, but fight off cracks better > Disc tips are lighter, more sensitive, but get stuck on every crack > > Cane material > Other than weight, I am not familiar with the attributes of the various cane materials > > At convention I think I may pick up a 70 inch folding carbon fiber with a roller tip (if possible, I will pick up a extra disc tip). > > Thanks, > Jim > > > > > > "From compromise and things half done, > Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, > ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer > > --- On Sun, 6/21/09, T. Joseph Carter wrote: > > From: T. Joseph Carter > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 11:05 PM > > Jim, > > Sorry for the thread necromancy... > > If you're going to Detroit this year, look me up. I had to develop some custom cane techniques while I was in Colorado, and I till use them sometimes when the weather and terrain call for them. Start learning to use that cane in both hands, and invest in a good soft ice pack while you're learning. > > It sounds like you're using a heavier graphite/aluminum golf grip cane. I think you mentioned elsewhere that it folds. I'll bet anything that if you're used to moving around without a cane, at speed, it's too short for you. > > Unfortunately, the Independence Market is clearing out what stock it has of 50/50 canes--they had a few design flaws, and the design was never improved. That means your choices for NFB canes are rigid (which can take creativity to figure out what to do with it when you're not using it), or the telescopic models. The latter don't take a whole lot of abuse, and I don't recommend them for a heavy-handed cane user. > > I use mostly the rigid model, even though you won't find a much lighter hand than I use. > > Joseph > > > On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 12:16:38PM -0700, Jim Reed wrote: >> Hey all, The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along the flat side, on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger is extended and running along the side of > the cane >> >> Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with mass, energy, and momentum that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was in the process of doing a pole vault. > After >> the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the immovable object. I pity that cane. >> I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. >> Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated >> >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carter.tjoseph%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com > From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 05:11:50 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:11:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] IABS Travel Kits for Sale References: Message-ID: <4A0814E94A294860A52FB588E8A04817@Dezman> I thought this was pretty cool for a fund raiser. You know you'll need some of this extra stuff Britany. LOL Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 8:51 PM Subject: [nabs-l] IABS Travel Kits for Sale > The Illinois Association of Blind Students will be selling IABS Travel > Kits > at the NFB Convention for $10 each. The kits include travel sizes of each > of the following: > - toothpaste > - toothbrush > - dental floss > - mouthwash > - hand sanitizer > - tishue > - hair comb > - deoderant > - sturdy, reusable plastic storage pouch > > The entire kit is TSA approved and can be taken in carry-on luggage. > > This travel kit is a great deal at only $10; and it conveniently has > everything you'll need that the hotel doesn't give away for free. > > If you would like to purchase an IABS Travel kit, please do one of the > following: > - Visit the Illinois deligation during general session and ask for an IABS > Board Member > - Attend the NABS meeting and listen for the people selling the kits > before > and after the meeting > - Pick up your hotel telephone, dial 0, and ask to be transferred to > Alyson > Slaughter or Ronza Othman > > The IABS Travel Kits make excellent gifts and are very useful to > everyone. > The proceeds from this fundraiser will be used to fund IABS programs and > activities. Thank you for your continued support of the Illinois Student > Division. > Regards, > Ronza Othman, Fundraising Chair and Treasurer > Illinois Association of Blind Students > > **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the > grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000004) > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From jackson.dezman at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 05:16:42 2009 From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:16:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643> <38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> Message-ID: Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jess" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Teal, > They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have > the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you > get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate > against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been > living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York > which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of > 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside > of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend > work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with > your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just > not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 > housing . > Jessica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teal Blooworth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Hi All >> >> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. >> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some >> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >> to talk to us any longer. >> >> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a >> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and >> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >> follow our dreams but still we are people. >> >> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >> >> -Teal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>> >>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>> slope. >>>> Sarah >>>> >>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>> >>>>> Hi all,, >>>>> >>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>> out >>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>> >>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>> >>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>> >>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>> >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>> LCB. >>>>>> I've >>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>> times >>>>>> so >>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>> there >>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>>> we >>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>> to >>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>> bee >>>>>> in >>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>> helping >>>>>> me >>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>>> said >>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>> happen in >>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>>> steps >>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>>> say >>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>>> there >>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>> hope >>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>> morning. >>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>> do >>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>> second-class >>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>> the >>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>>> of >>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>> sight >>>>>> in >>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>> leave >>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>> within >>>>>> the >>>>>> disabled >>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>> perform >>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>> >>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>> fact >>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>> how >>>>>> we >>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>> there >>>>>> are >>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>> it". >>>>>> This >>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>>> thirty >>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>> your >>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>> own >>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>> we've >>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>>> to >>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>> difference >>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>> you >>>>>> can >>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>>> that >>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>> education, >>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>> "gut" >>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>>> know >>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>> learn >>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>> yet, >>>>>> on >>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>>> a >>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> going >>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>> Braille. >>>>>> The >>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>> going to >>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how >>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>> figures >>>>>> out >>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>> training >>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>> skills, >>>>>> but >>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>> blindness. >>>>>> >>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>> treat us >>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>> our >>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>> tend to >>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> treat >>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>>> and >>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>>> for >>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>> the >>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>> own). >>>>>> >>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>>> Is >>>>>> it >>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>> educating >>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>> what >>>>>> can >>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>> on >>>>>> the >>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>>> tell >>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>> But >>>>>> for >>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>> still >>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>> educators >>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>> >>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>> to >>>>>> how >>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Wed Jun 24 08:12:24 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:12:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane In-Reply-To: <7165A18AE1014F55B66B4BCEDD3FAE67@usore540475a8f> References: <191267.11064.qm@web65710.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <7165A18AE1014F55B66B4BCEDD3FAE67@usore540475a8f> Message-ID: The web site says one every six months. Dave At 04:04 PM 6/23/2009, you wrote: >I ordered a free cane. I have a question though. Can you only order >1 free cane? Or can you order as many as you want? > > >Cause its been 18 days >Since I first held you >But to me it feels just like >It feels like a lifetime >I'm trying hard to re-arrange >Some say its the hardest thing to do >But that's another 18 days >Without you.. From JFreeh at nfb.org Wed Jun 24 08:36:34 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:36:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Senator Levin to Participate in the National Federation of the Blind Motor City March for Independence Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org Senator Levin to Participate in the National Federation of the Blind Motor City March for Independence Michigan Senator to Address the Marchers Detroit, Michigan (June 23, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind announced today that Senator Carl Levin (D-MI) will speak at the organization's third annual civil rights march and rally. The Motor City March for Independence will take place on the morning of July 6, 2009, as part of the National Federation of the Blind convention, which will be held in Detroit this year. Over one thousand blind people from across the nation will march to raise money to benefit blind people all over the United States and to raise awareness about the capabilities of the blind. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "We are pleased to have an outstanding public servant like Senator Levin show his commitment to first-class status for blind Americans by joining our March for Independence this year. We look forward to continuing to work with the Senator to achieve the full integration of the blind into society on a basis of equality." Senator Levin said: "As Detroit hosts the National Federation of the Blind's annual national convention, this is Michigan's chance to show that we fully support equality and opportunity for blind Americans. It is an honor for me to participate in the March for Independence, and I am looking forward to standing shoulder to shoulder with men and women who are so committed to this important cause." Senator Levin has served in the U.S. Senate since 1976 and is Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. He joins former Motown singer and current Detroit Councilwoman Martha Reeves, Representative John Dingell, and other local Detroit luminaries who will participate in the Motor City March for Independence. For more information about the March for Independence, including how to participate and how to sponsor a marcher, visit www.marchforindependence.org. To learn more about the National Federation of the Blind, please visit www.nfb.org. ### From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 11:00:33 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:00:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone References: <338209.57450.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004d01c9f4ba$ffe0b260$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Welcome back. Hoping everything goes well. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 10:40 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone > > hello everyone, > > I jsut wanted to take a minute to say hello to everyone, old friends and > new alike. It has been some time since I have posted to this list; I > unsubscribed for a while when i got busy with other things. I hope to get > active in it again and to keep everyone updated with what is going on with > me. FYI, I will be in Boston August 1-29 at the Boston Language Institute > doing certification to teach English as a Second Language, and then I will > be working on getting a job -- either domesticly or abroad. I would > rpefer to go ahead and get a job within the United States for a little > while just to get my feet under me. Anyway, I will be in the Back Bay > area, so if anyone is in that area and wants to hang out, or has > recommendations for sites to visit on the weekend, restaurants, pubs, etc. > just let me know. > > Thanks, and look forward to talking with all of you again. > > Harry > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From snowball07 at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 15:09:42 2009 From: snowball07 at gmail.com (Janice) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:09:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643><38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> Message-ID: Hello Teal, You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not a pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, I was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights on it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode of action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of an issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even in areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, I would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you shouldn't have to ask for either. Cheers, Janice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dezman Jackson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jess" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Teal, > They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have > the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you > get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate > against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been > living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York > which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of > 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside > of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend > work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with > your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just > not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 > housing . > Jessica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teal Blooworth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Hi All >> >> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. >> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some >> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >> to talk to us any longer. >> >> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a >> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and >> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >> follow our dreams but still we are people. >> >> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >> >> -Teal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>> >>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>> slope. >>>> Sarah >>>> >>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>> >>>>> Hi all,, >>>>> >>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>> out >>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>> >>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>> >>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>> >>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>> >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>> LCB. >>>>>> I've >>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>> times >>>>>> so >>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>> there >>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>>> we >>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>> to >>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>> bee >>>>>> in >>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>> helping >>>>>> me >>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>>> said >>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>> happen in >>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>>> steps >>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>>> say >>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>>> there >>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>> hope >>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>> morning. >>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>> do >>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>> second-class >>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>> the >>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>>> of >>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>> sight >>>>>> in >>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>> leave >>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>> within >>>>>> the >>>>>> disabled >>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>> perform >>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>> >>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>> fact >>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>> how >>>>>> we >>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>> there >>>>>> are >>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>> it". >>>>>> This >>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>>> thirty >>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>> your >>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>> own >>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>> we've >>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>>> to >>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>> difference >>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>> you >>>>>> can >>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>>> that >>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>> education, >>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>> "gut" >>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>>> know >>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>> learn >>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>> yet, >>>>>> on >>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>>> a >>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> going >>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>> Braille. >>>>>> The >>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>> going to >>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how >>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>> figures >>>>>> out >>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>> training >>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>> skills, >>>>>> but >>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>> blindness. >>>>>> >>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>> treat us >>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>> our >>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>> tend to >>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> treat >>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>>> and >>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>>> for >>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>> the >>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>> own). >>>>>> >>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>>> Is >>>>>> it >>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>> educating >>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>> what >>>>>> can >>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>> on >>>>>> the >>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>>> tell >>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>> But >>>>>> for >>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>> still >>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>> educators >>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>> >>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>> to >>>>>> how >>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 15:30:25 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Bloodworth) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:30:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643><38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> Message-ID: well yes i know they cannot legally do that and they did not say "no sorry we cant rent to you because you are blind and getting a guide dog" but i am just going by the way they spoke to me and how they never called me back after me teling them i was getting a dog. The thing with all of it though is western kentucky really is ignorant about blindness. There are not many visually impaired people and not really much help. In my home town we have 2 stoplights but no crosswalks. People here mostly just stare but i have gotten used to it. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dezman Jackson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jess" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Teal, > They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have > the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you > get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate > against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been > living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York > which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of > 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside > of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend > work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with > your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just > not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 > housing . > Jessica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teal Blooworth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Hi All >> >> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. >> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some >> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >> to talk to us any longer. >> >> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a >> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and >> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >> follow our dreams but still we are people. >> >> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >> >> -Teal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>> >>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>> slope. >>>> Sarah >>>> >>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>> >>>>> Hi all,, >>>>> >>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>> out >>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>> >>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>> >>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>> >>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>> >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>> LCB. >>>>>> I've >>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>> times >>>>>> so >>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>> there >>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>>> we >>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>> to >>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>> bee >>>>>> in >>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>> helping >>>>>> me >>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>>> said >>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>> happen in >>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>>> steps >>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>>> say >>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>>> there >>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>> hope >>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>> morning. >>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>> do >>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>> second-class >>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>> the >>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>>> of >>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>> sight >>>>>> in >>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>> leave >>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>> within >>>>>> the >>>>>> disabled >>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>> perform >>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>> >>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>> fact >>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>> how >>>>>> we >>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>> there >>>>>> are >>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>> it". >>>>>> This >>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>>> thirty >>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>> your >>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>> own >>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>> we've >>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>>> to >>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>> difference >>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>> you >>>>>> can >>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>>> that >>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>> education, >>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>> "gut" >>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>>> know >>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>> learn >>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>> yet, >>>>>> on >>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>>> a >>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> going >>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>> Braille. >>>>>> The >>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>> going to >>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how >>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>> figures >>>>>> out >>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>> training >>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>> skills, >>>>>> but >>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>> blindness. >>>>>> >>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>> treat us >>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>> our >>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>> tend to >>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> treat >>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>>> and >>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>>> for >>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>> the >>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>> own). >>>>>> >>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>>> Is >>>>>> it >>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>> educating >>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>> what >>>>>> can >>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>> on >>>>>> the >>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>>> tell >>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>> But >>>>>> for >>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>> still >>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>> educators >>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>> >>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>> to >>>>>> how >>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 15:51:03 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:51:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer> <20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca> <88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643> <38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906240851gcade24bg7048fd02f43a8ed3@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Janice. No pet fees, no deposits, nothing should be forced on you because the guide dog is not a pet. It's the same thing if you needed a wheelchair and you were also paralyzed and had one of them little monkeys. Beth On 6/24/09, Janice wrote: > Hello Teal, > > You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, > or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not a > pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, I > was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights on > it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode of > action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest > that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with > him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye > dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of an > issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even in > areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, I > would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you > shouldn't have to ask for either. > Cheers, > > Janice > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dezman Jackson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jess" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Teal, >> They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have >> the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you >> get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate >> >> against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been >> living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York >> which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of >> 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside >> of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend >> work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with >> your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just >> not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 >> housing . >> Jessica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Teal Blooworth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi All >>> >>> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. >>> >>> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >>> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >>> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >>> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >>> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some >>> >>> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >>> to talk to us any longer. >>> >>> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >>> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >>> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >>> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a >>> >>> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >>> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and >>> >>> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >>> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >>> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >>> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >>> follow our dreams but still we are people. >>> >>> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >>> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >>> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >>> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >>> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >>> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >>> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >>> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >>> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >>> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >>> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >>> >>> -Teal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>>> >>>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>>> slope. >>>>> Sarah >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all,, >>>>>> >>>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>>> out >>>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>>> >>>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>>> LCB. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>>> times >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>>> bee >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>>> helping >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>>> happen in >>>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>>>> steps >>>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>>> morning. >>>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>>> second-class >>>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>>> sight >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>>> leave >>>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>>> perform >>>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>>> fact >>>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>>> it". >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>>>> thirty >>>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>>> we've >>>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>>> difference >>>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>>> education, >>>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>>> "gut" >>>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>>> yet, >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>>> Braille. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>>> figures >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>>> training >>>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>>> skills, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>>> treat us >>>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>>> tend to >>>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> treat >>>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>>> own). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>>> educating >>>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>>> educators >>>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From ginisd at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 24 15:55:24 2009 From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:55:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Can I listen to some conventin events on line? Message-ID: Hi All, I would have loved to attend the NFB convention, alas it was not possible for me this year. Just writing to ask if some of the workshops or speeches can be heard somehow on line, as in live streaming or other audio feeds? Thanks, ginnie From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 16:26:13 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Bloodworth) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:26:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643><38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> <4383d01d0906240851gcade24bg7048fd02f43a8ed3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BFDE4B861AC4D5394434278C523F743@teal6e6857f643> what about a snake for seizures? there is an animal for just about everything now and you really wouldnt think about them helping. A friend told me that i didnt necessarily have to tell them even about the guide dog but i am not sure. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice I agree with Janice. No pet fees, no deposits, nothing should be forced on you because the guide dog is not a pet. It's the same thing if you needed a wheelchair and you were also paralyzed and had one of them little monkeys. Beth On 6/24/09, Janice wrote: > Hello Teal, > > You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, > or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not > a > pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, > I > was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights > on > it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode > of > action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest > that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with > him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye > dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of > an > issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even > in > areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, > I > would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you > shouldn't have to ask for either. > Cheers, > > Janice > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dezman Jackson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jess" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Teal, >> They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have >> the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you >> get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to >> discriminate >> >> against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been >> living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York >> which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of >> 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside >> of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend >> work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with >> your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just >> not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 >> housing . >> Jessica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Teal Blooworth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi All >>> >>> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular >>> topic. >>> >>> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >>> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >>> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >>> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >>> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after >>> some >>> >>> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >>> to talk to us any longer. >>> >>> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >>> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >>> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >>> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had >>> a >>> >>> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >>> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target >>> and >>> >>> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >>> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >>> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >>> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >>> follow our dreams but still we are people. >>> >>> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >>> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >>> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >>> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >>> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >>> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >>> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >>> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >>> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >>> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >>> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >>> >>> -Teal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>>> >>>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>>> slope. >>>>> Sarah >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all,, >>>>>> >>>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>>> out >>>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>>> >>>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, >>>>>> or >>>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>>> LCB. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>>> times >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>>> bee >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>>> helping >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>>> happen in >>>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> steps >>>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will >>>>>>> open >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>>> morning. >>>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>>> second-class >>>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the >>>>>>> tendency >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>>> sight >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>>> leave >>>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>>> perform >>>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>>> fact >>>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our >>>>>>> alternative >>>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>>> it". >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> thirty >>>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>>> we've >>>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>>> difference >>>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not >>>>>>> ignorance, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>>> education, >>>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>>> "gut" >>>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>>> yet, >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>>> Braille. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>>> figures >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>>> training >>>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>>> skills, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>>> treat us >>>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>>> tend to >>>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> treat >>>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before >>>>>>> me, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my >>>>>>> mother, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>>> own). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who >>>>>>> don't? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>>> educating >>>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>>> educators >>>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From jmassay1 at cox.net Wed Jun 24 17:50:23 2009 From: jmassay1 at cox.net (JMassay) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:50:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] People are weird when it comes to blindness Message-ID: <6D254BA4D2DF466489F1A62C40041BDA@MERLIN> Jim and all, In many cases, not just with regard to blindness but to all disabilities , when people make comments about how amazing you are it is not because of their generally low expectations but their own insecurities about how they would handle the disability. Until faced with such a disability people view them as a tragedy not a different way of having to live and navigate through the world. That being said , it seems as if people are actually saying , "Wow! I would never be able to do that!" Just my thoughts.. Jeannie From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 17:58:14 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Bloodworth) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:58:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader Message-ID: Hi All I have posted a similar email before but never got a response. Does anyone know if gmail/google calender is accessible with jaws? if so how do you use it, and if not then does anybody have something better for an electronic calender? -Teal From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 24 18:10:58 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Free NFB cane Message-ID: <397852.71300.qm@web65704.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I'm wondering why the free NFB canes are so short? I mean, I'm only 6 foot 4, and an NFB cane isn't long enough for me. I could understand the NFB not having a long enough cane for me if I was like 7 foot tall, but I am not that tall, and I am certianly not that far out of the norm for the average height of American males,  I find the 63 inch limit particularly odd since the NFB (or at least nost NFB members) all seem to recomend canes that are at least as tall, if not taller, than the person using it. This means (based on NFB recomendations) that a 63 inch cane should not be used by anyone taller than 5 foot 3. As far as I can tell, nearly all American men, and most American women and teenagers are going to be taller than 5 foot 3, so why won't the NFB offer a free cane that is large enough for most of society to benifit? I'm sure their is a legitimate and rational (probably economic) reason as to why the NFB has choosen to not offer canes longer than 63 inches, and I'd be curious to find out what that reason is. Thanks, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From guitargirl89 at windstream.net Wed Jun 24 18:20:06 2009 From: guitargirl89 at windstream.net (stacy timberlake) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:20:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62CD0E7B73324C319C5FF2290612181B@StacyPC> Teal! I miss you soooooooooo much! -Stacy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teal Bloodworth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:58 PM Subject: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader > Hi All > > I have posted a similar email before but never got a response. Does anyone > know if gmail/google calender is accessible with jaws? if so how do you > use it, and if not then does anybody have something better for an > electronic calender? > > -Teal > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/guitargirl89%40windstream.net From snowball07 at gmail.com Wed Jun 24 18:25:10 2009 From: snowball07 at gmail.com (Janice) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:25:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643><38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica><4383d01d0906240851gcade24bg7048fd02f43a8ed3@mail.gmail.com> <0BFDE4B861AC4D5394434278C523F743@teal6e6857f643> Message-ID: <6B5A684EA2EB43CE8A95C79A3BE9E802@your0d10610b06> Hello Teal, Like I said earlier, I think in this situation, you should just ask for forgiveness- rather than permission. Although, it is silly to have to deal with either, but I guess that only exists in a perfect world... sigh. LOL. You don't need to tell them. I would just withhold that information until it is necessary. Then at that point, you will have all the skills and knowledge that you would need to talk to the leasing office, or whomever about it. Not to mention, you will have your school backing you up, etc... hope that is kind of useful! Kindest Regards, Janice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teal Bloodworth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice what about a snake for seizures? there is an animal for just about everything now and you really wouldnt think about them helping. A friend told me that i didnt necessarily have to tell them even about the guide dog but i am not sure. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice I agree with Janice. No pet fees, no deposits, nothing should be forced on you because the guide dog is not a pet. It's the same thing if you needed a wheelchair and you were also paralyzed and had one of them little monkeys. Beth On 6/24/09, Janice wrote: > Hello Teal, > > You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, > or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not > a > pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, > I > was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights > on > it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode > of > action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest > that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with > him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye > dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of > an > issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even > in > areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, > I > would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you > shouldn't have to ask for either. > Cheers, > > Janice > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dezman Jackson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jess" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Teal, >> They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have >> the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you >> get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to >> discriminate >> >> against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been >> living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York >> which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of >> 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside >> of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend >> work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with >> your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just >> not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 >> housing . >> Jessica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Teal Blooworth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi All >>> >>> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular >>> topic. >>> >>> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >>> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >>> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >>> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >>> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after >>> some >>> >>> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >>> to talk to us any longer. >>> >>> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >>> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >>> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >>> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had >>> a >>> >>> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >>> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target >>> and >>> >>> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >>> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >>> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >>> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >>> follow our dreams but still we are people. >>> >>> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >>> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >>> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >>> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >>> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >>> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >>> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >>> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >>> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >>> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >>> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >>> >>> -Teal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>>> >>>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>>> slope. >>>>> Sarah >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all,, >>>>>> >>>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>>> out >>>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>>> >>>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, >>>>>> or >>>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>>> LCB. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>>> times >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>>> bee >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>>> helping >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>>> happen in >>>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> steps >>>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will >>>>>>> open >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>>> morning. >>>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>>> second-class >>>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the >>>>>>> tendency >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>>> sight >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>>> leave >>>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>>> perform >>>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>>> fact >>>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our >>>>>>> alternative >>>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>>> it". >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> thirty >>>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>>> we've >>>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>>> difference >>>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not >>>>>>> ignorance, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>>> education, >>>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>>> "gut" >>>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>>> yet, >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>>> Braille. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>>> figures >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>>> training >>>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>>> skills, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>>> treat us >>>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>>> tend to >>>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> treat >>>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before >>>>>>> me, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my >>>>>>> mother, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>>> own). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who >>>>>>> don't? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>>> educating >>>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>>> educators >>>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com From guitargirl89 at windstream.net Wed Jun 24 18:38:25 2009 From: guitargirl89 at windstream.net (stacy timberlake) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:38:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain In-Reply-To: <6C4102210ED04CC3880D488F9755D4D1@teal6e6857f643> References: <397543.51724.qm@web65716.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><4B41BDBBAE7C452EA2870530B8F3A4F8@useripvq7z5u3t> <6C4102210ED04CC3880D488F9755D4D1@teal6e6857f643> Message-ID: <3E2D31DBF0AE439DA733BCF3069796FF@StacyPC> Hey Jim, Try holding your index finger along the flat side of the cane but allowing the side with your index finger to be on the "side" not on the top. (If you are left handed then the flat part would be on the left side with your index finger running down it--and opposite that if you are right handed) Also to avoid the "gut shots" allow the top of the cane handle to end in the palm of your hand--that way if you do hit a crack your hand will absorb the force of impact. -Stacy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teal Blooworth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain > hmm well jim ...sounds like you need a marshmello (sp) tip that way it > won't get stuck in the cracks in the sidewalk. This tip rolls oppose to > simply making a point at the end of the cane. > > If the Kentucky OFB cane hurts your wrist like that maybe an NFB cane > would feel better. These already have the rounded tip at the end and they > are lighter canes. The change of the tip i think will help with it > stavving you in the gut (i used to do it all the time), and it may or may > not help with the wrist and arm pain because you can simply "glide". Also > a longer cane may be beneficial helping stand straighter and not "work as > hard". > > Congrats on feeling more comfortable with your cane and venturing out > indepentantly. Thats the only way you can really get the confidentce you > need for independant travel. > > -Teal > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:59 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain > > >> Jim, >> >> Being 6'5, 280 myself. Try a 69' or 72' Iowa style with a disc >> tip. Also try a pencil grip in addition to the fist grips, and I have no >> problems using my stick from the side, and it prevents me from getting >> gut pokes. >> >> Patrick >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jim Reed" >> To: "NABS mail list" >> Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 3:16 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain >> >> >> Hey all, >> The pain in my hand/wrist is not going away, and Now it seems to be >> spreading to my forearm, and even my bicep. Last night, I was ready to >> call it quits after just three blocks. The hand/wrist pain is not so bad >> that I can't or won't use my cane, but it certainly makes it >> uncomfortable to do so. A majority of the pain I experience is in my >> hand, mostly in the meaty section just below the thumb, and just above >> the wrist. My cane has one side of the handle that is flattened, and I've >> tried three different grips, and nothing works to alleviate the pain. >> Grip 1: make a fist with the cane inside the fist, with the thumb along >> the flat side, on top of the cane. Grip 2: Index finger pointed out, >> resting along the flat part of the cane and is on the top of the cane. >> Grip 3: make fist with cane in the middle of the fist, with thumb along >> the flat part of the handle, on top of the cane, while my pointer finger >> is extended and running along the side of the cane >> >> Additionally, I've been working on trying to keep my cane hand extending >> out in front of me, in the middle of my body, and I feel that that may be >> contributing to the forearm/bicep pain. Also, I find my cane hand >> drifting towards the side of my body (where it would normally be if I >> wasn't using a cane). One problem I have had with keeping my cane in >> front of me is that when the cane gets stuck in a crack or something in >> the sidewalk, I end up taking a poke to the gut. I don't really mind the >> poke to the gut, what worries me is that I will break the cane; with the >> speed that comes with being 6 foot four and having long legs, and with >> mass, energy, and momentum that comes with being 340 pounds, I have put >> some pretty severe bends into my cane via a gut poke, and I am afraid >> that once I move away from a strong aluminum cane, I will snap or >> otherwise destroy every cane I touch. Literally, my cane bent like I was >> in the process of doing a pole vault. After >> the bend, my cane had enough stored energy that the tip of it jumped 3 >> feet in the air without me doing anything. The unstopable force meets the >> immovable object. I pity that cane. >> >> I walked to my campus for the first time last night, and it went >> flawlessly. Prior to having this cane, I never even would have considered >> walking to class after dark. The route was just too dark, for too long. >> >> Any suggestions on the grip and location of the cane would be appreciated >> >> Jim >> >> "From compromise and things half done, >> Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >> And when at last the fight is won, >> ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pajohns1%40vt.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/guitargirl89%40windstream.net From lavar.phillips at hotmail.com Wed Jun 24 21:00:11 2009 From: lavar.phillips at hotmail.com (lavar phillips) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:00:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] I need a roomate please for convention Message-ID: I know it is kinda last minute but i need a roomate for this years convention. I have a room i reall need to split the cost of the room between one or two people. I will be staying for the whole convention that is fine. if you have a dog that is fine i love then. please email me back at lavar.phillips at hotmail.com or lavar.phillips at gmail.com or daflyest50 at yahoo.com or daflyest50 at aol.com _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Jun 24 23:52:14 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:52:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643><38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> Message-ID: <0856DFB2C16C4C5F99A55D0DAA3E8285@Ashley> What does dogs and renting homes have to do with this thread? I think you should change the subject line. Also several people have stated the same thing to Teal, that its illegal to barr you from renting with a guide dog. Since Teal went to a guide dog school I'm sure Teal is aware of the rights, responsibilities, and laws affecting guide dog owners. The problem is that although we have laws people don't always follow them and you can't do anything about it. Suing the offending entity whether it be a land lord or a school is fighting a company or beauracacy. I think if they don't want to rent to you, try and find another apartment. After all why would you want to contract with a land lord who is hostile? Better to find someone who is open minded and will work with you. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hello Teal, You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not a pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, I was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights on it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode of action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of an issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even in areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, I would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you shouldn't have to ask for either. Cheers, Janice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dezman Jackson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jess" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Teal, > They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have > the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you > get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate > against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been > living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York > which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of > 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside > of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend > work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with > your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just > not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 > housing . > Jessica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teal Blooworth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Hi All >> >> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. >> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some >> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >> to talk to us any longer. >> >> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a >> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and >> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >> follow our dreams but still we are people. >> >> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >> >> -Teal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>> >>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>> slope. >>>> Sarah >>>> >>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>> >>>>> Hi all,, >>>>> >>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>> out >>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>> >>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>> >>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>> >>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>> >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>> LCB. >>>>>> I've >>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>> times >>>>>> so >>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>> there >>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>>> we >>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>> to >>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>> bee >>>>>> in >>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>> helping >>>>>> me >>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>>> said >>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>> happen in >>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>>> steps >>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>>> say >>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>>> there >>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>> hope >>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>> morning. >>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>> do >>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>> second-class >>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>> the >>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>>> of >>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>> sight >>>>>> in >>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>> leave >>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>> within >>>>>> the >>>>>> disabled >>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>> perform >>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>> >>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>> fact >>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>> how >>>>>> we >>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>> there >>>>>> are >>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>> it". >>>>>> This >>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>>> thirty >>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>> your >>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>> own >>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>> we've >>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>>> to >>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>> difference >>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>> you >>>>>> can >>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>>> that >>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>> education, >>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>> "gut" >>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>>> know >>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>> learn >>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>> yet, >>>>>> on >>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>>> a >>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> going >>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>> Braille. >>>>>> The >>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>> going to >>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how >>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>> figures >>>>>> out >>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>> training >>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>> skills, >>>>>> but >>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>> blindness. >>>>>> >>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>> treat us >>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>> our >>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>> tend to >>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> treat >>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>>> and >>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>>> for >>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>> the >>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>> own). >>>>>> >>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>>> Is >>>>>> it >>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>> educating >>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>> what >>>>>> can >>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>> on >>>>>> the >>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>>> tell >>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>> But >>>>>> for >>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>> still >>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>> educators >>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>> >>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>> to >>>>>> how >>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4183 (20090624) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 00:02:55 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:02:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643><38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica><4383d01d0906240851gcade24bg7048fd02f43a8ed3@mail.gmail.com><0BFDE4B861AC4D5394434278C523F743@teal6e6857f643> <6B5A684EA2EB43CE8A95C79A3BE9E802@your0d10610b06> Message-ID: Janice, While the guide dog school will back you up, you are fighting a battle you may not have to. Why not just go to find another apartment whose company is responsive and open minded? Teal stated they did not return phone calls. If that were me I would not wish to wait around for them to respond. If that is the only apartment complex you can rent because its accessible to transportation, you are stuck. Then go forward with it with information about the law and the guide dog school backing you. Hopefully with some education to the company they will change their minds. As consumers we often have options and can buy from places that meet our needs. For instance some stores have been better about helping me when I request customer service at the counter. I'm going to those stores who are more customer friendly. Some restaurants are more accomodating than others about reading the menu, counting change when its brought back, etc. So I'm going to go to those places. Yes I can educate and maybe get demanding and confrontational at these services but I pick my battles. I'd rather be at a store, restaurant, apartment complex etc that is open minded and willing to make some accomodations so I can equally enjoy their services. In my opinion fighting an apartment complex about a dog issue or other reason is not a battle I'd fight. I'd rather just go rent a different apartment if at all possible! Hope this makes sense. I feel there's a time to combat predjudice and discrimination and a time to avoid it. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hello Teal, Like I said earlier, I think in this situation, you should just ask for forgiveness- rather than permission. Although, it is silly to have to deal with either, but I guess that only exists in a perfect world... sigh. LOL. You don't need to tell them. I would just withhold that information until it is necessary. Then at that point, you will have all the skills and knowledge that you would need to talk to the leasing office, or whomever about it. Not to mention, you will have your school backing you up, etc... hope that is kind of useful! Kindest Regards, Janice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teal Bloodworth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice what about a snake for seizures? there is an animal for just about everything now and you really wouldnt think about them helping. A friend told me that i didnt necessarily have to tell them even about the guide dog but i am not sure. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice I agree with Janice. No pet fees, no deposits, nothing should be forced on you because the guide dog is not a pet. It's the same thing if you needed a wheelchair and you were also paralyzed and had one of them little monkeys. Beth On 6/24/09, Janice wrote: > Hello Teal, > > You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, > or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not > a > pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, > I > was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights > on > it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode > of > action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest > that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with > him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye > dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of > an > issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even > in > areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, > I > would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you > shouldn't have to ask for either. > Cheers, > > Janice > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dezman Jackson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jess" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Teal, >> They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have >> the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you >> get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to >> discriminate >> >> against you because you have a disability. My fiancée and I have been >> living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York >> which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of >> 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside >> of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend >> work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with >> your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just >> not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 >> housing . >> Jessica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Teal Blooworth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi All >>> >>> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular >>> topic. >>> >>> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >>> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >>> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >>> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >>> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after >>> some >>> >>> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >>> to talk to us any longer. >>> >>> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >>> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >>> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >>> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had >>> a >>> >>> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >>> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target >>> and >>> >>> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >>> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >>> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >>> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >>> follow our dreams but still we are people. >>> >>> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >>> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >>> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >>> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >>> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >>> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >>> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >>> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >>> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >>> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >>> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >>> >>> -Teal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>>> >>>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>>> slope. >>>>> Sarah >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all,, >>>>>> >>>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>>> out >>>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>>> >>>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, >>>>>> or >>>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>>> LCB. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>>> times >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>>> bee >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>>> helping >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>>> happen in >>>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> steps >>>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will >>>>>>> open >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>>> morning. >>>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>>> second-class >>>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the >>>>>>> tendency >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>>> sight >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>>> leave >>>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>>> perform >>>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>>> fact >>>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our >>>>>>> alternative >>>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>>> it". >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> thirty >>>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>>> we've >>>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>>> difference >>>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not >>>>>>> ignorance, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>>> education, >>>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>>> "gut" >>>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>>> yet, >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>>> Braille. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>>> figures >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>>> training >>>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>>> skills, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>>> treat us >>>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>>> tend to >>>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> treat >>>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before >>>>>>> me, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my >>>>>>> mother, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>>> own). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who >>>>>>> don't? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>>> educating >>>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>>> educators >>>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4183 (20090624) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 00:30:27 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:30:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader References: Message-ID: <001101c9f52c$2480d980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> I have found the callender in Microsoftword 2003 is vary accessable with jaws. Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teal Bloodworth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:58 PM Subject: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader > Hi All > > I have posted a similar email before but never got a response. Does anyone > know if gmail/google calender is accessible with jaws? if so how do you > use it, and if not then does anybody have something better for an > electronic calender? > > -Teal > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 00:31:23 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:31:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice In-Reply-To: <0856DFB2C16C4C5F99A55D0DAA3E8285@Ashley> References: <263846867A974CB1A1F9CB8EB17EED39@sacomputer><20090616232358.wu1dt3udc0wcg4sg@webmail.utoronto.ca><88DF04C091484DFD84577AE7C8DA217C@teal6e6857f643><38BADE5E579340C9B83E449E9D29F69A@Jessica> <0856DFB2C16C4C5F99A55D0DAA3E8285@Ashley> Message-ID: <93E83057C4434934BA2A94885F065288@Jessica> Ashley, Teal hasn't gone to get her guide dog yet. If you read further back in the thread she mentioned that she wasn't going until the 29th of June. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice What does dogs and renting homes have to do with this thread? I think you should change the subject line. Also several people have stated the same thing to Teal, that its illegal to barr you from renting with a guide dog. Since Teal went to a guide dog school I'm sure Teal is aware of the rights, responsibilities, and laws affecting guide dog owners. The problem is that although we have laws people don't always follow them and you can't do anything about it. Suing the offending entity whether it be a land lord or a school is fighting a company or beauracacy. I think if they don't want to rent to you, try and find another apartment. After all why would you want to contract with a land lord who is hostile? Better to find someone who is open minded and will work with you. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janice" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Hello Teal, You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not a pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, I was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights on it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode of action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of an issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even in areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, I would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you shouldn't have to ask for either. Cheers, Janice ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dezman Jackson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. Dezman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jess" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > Teal, > They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have > the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you > get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate > against you because you have a disability. My fianc�e and I have been > living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York > which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of > 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside > of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend > work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with > your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just > not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 > housing . > Jessica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teal Blooworth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Hi All >> >> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. >> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some >> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >> to talk to us any longer. >> >> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a >> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and >> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >> follow our dreams but still we are people. >> >> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >> >> -Teal >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>> >>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>> slope. >>>> Sarah >>>> >>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>> >>>>> Hi all,, >>>>> >>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>> out >>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>> >>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>> >>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>> >>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>> >>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>> LCB. >>>>>> I've >>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>> times >>>>>> so >>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>> there >>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>>> we >>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>> to >>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>> bee >>>>>> in >>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>> helping >>>>>> me >>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>>> said >>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>> happen in >>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>>> steps >>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>> I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>>> say >>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>> can >>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>>> there >>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>> hope >>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>> morning. >>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>> do >>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>> second-class >>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>> the >>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>>> of >>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>> sight >>>>>> in >>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>> leave >>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>> within >>>>>> the >>>>>> disabled >>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>> perform >>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>> >>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>> fact >>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>> how >>>>>> we >>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>> there >>>>>> are >>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>> it". >>>>>> This >>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>>> thirty >>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>> your >>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>> own >>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>> we've >>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>>> to >>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>> difference >>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>> you >>>>>> can >>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>>> that >>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>> education, >>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>> "gut" >>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>>> know >>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>> learn >>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>> yet, >>>>>> on >>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>>> a >>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>> it's >>>>>> going >>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>> Braille. >>>>>> The >>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>> going to >>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>> matter >>>>>> how >>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>> figures >>>>>> out >>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>> training >>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>> skills, >>>>>> but >>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>> blindness. >>>>>> >>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>> treat us >>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>> our >>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>> tend to >>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>> who >>>>>> treat >>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>>> and >>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>>> for >>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>> the >>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>> own). >>>>>> >>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>>> Is >>>>>> it >>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>> educating >>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>> what >>>>>> can >>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>> on >>>>>> the >>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>>> tell >>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>> But >>>>>> for >>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>> still >>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>> educators >>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>> >>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>> to >>>>>> how >>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>> to >>>>>> be >>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4183 (20090624) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 01:52:58 2009 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (Teal Bloodworth) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 20:52:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader References: <001101c9f52c$2480d980$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <4C6FDE6893B64E33BBE8804D6BFC8655@teal6e6857f643> what about office 2007? how do you access it? -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rania" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader >I have found the callender in Microsoftword 2003 is vary accessable with >jaws. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teal Bloodworth" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:58 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] accessible calender for screen reader > > >> Hi All >> >> I have posted a similar email before but never got a response. Does >> anyone know if gmail/google calender is accessible with jaws? if so how >> do you use it, and if not then does anybody have something better for an >> electronic calender? >> >> -Teal >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 02:33:50 2009 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:33:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases Message-ID: Hi all, This is sort of a school question but also one for life. We have to research on the job so it won't go away. Since there's new people on the list, maybe some new ideas will come about. I graduated with a BA in liberal studies, studying social science and communication. I'm getting an internship and research has come up. I will help them research crime prevention and bullying and maybe other things; I'm working for the National crime prevention Council. Although I survived research and writing papers, it was something I disliked; it was time consuming and frustrating. My school had online databases but I still used hard copy sources in addition to online. Some info just wasn't electronic. Due to problems like the inability to skim with jaws for key things, image PDFs and paper sources, I used readers mainly. I directed them to skim for certain key points. We read abstracts in journals or table of contents if a book to see if it was relevant. Then we picked out the actual sections and read them. I researched on my own through the internet as well. I wonder what I can do if anything to do research better. I need to be more independent with it since I do not have a reader on the job. That's too bad because they can skim well where as with jaws you can only go by paragraph to get a sense of the document. My questions are: 1. Which databases did you find accessible? Is PSYCH Info accessible? 2. How do you use those PDF files? What can you do in Openbook to access them? Many full text articles were PDF rendering them inaccessible without using a scanner. 3. In databases with PDFs, do you find an option for a HTML link wich is a text link? When searching google.com they have PDF files as HTML as well. 4. What do you do to determine if an article is relevant? So far I thought of reading the abstract and/or intro. Sometimes I read entire articles only to find them not as useful as I thought they would be based on the intro. 5. Is googlescholar.com accessible? Thanks. Ashley From lavar.phillips at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 05:29:21 2009 From: lavar.phillips at hotmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:29:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list Message-ID: I just trying to get all the information I can about convention I would like to meet a whole lot of new people what events should I go to so I can have a good time From startrekcafe at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 07:04:20 2009 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:04:20 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] free accessible web hosting Message-ID: <638585E3E21E4FCF83EE650FFBADDD29@marvinPC> hi. looking for a free web hosting account that can handle side scripting, able to use such technologies as visual web developer, sql server, visualbasic, java script,etc. i am in devonport, tasmania, australia. i do not have a credit card, so a paid account is out of the question. i am a blind web site designer, using the jaws for windows screen reader from http://www.freedomscientific.com so if any one can help out and recommend a good one which also has plenty of large space. and using windows vista, let me know. cheers Marvin. E-Mail: startrekcafe at gmail.com Msn: startrekcafe at msn.com Skype: startrekcafe Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/ From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Jun 25 08:30:57 2009 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 03:30:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] message regarding what to PAC for Convention Message-ID: Greetings Fellow Federationists: As you are getting ready for Convention, you may be wondering what to PAC. Well, the answer is your check book or at least the account and routing numbers to your bank account. The PAC, or the Preauthorized Contribution Program, is one of the major fundraisers for our Federation. Each year we bring in about $360,000.00 to the organization. It is the program through which we can make easy, monthly donations to our national treasury. These general funds go to support our scholarship program, our legal advocacy, our public education campaigns, and more. A person can give as little as $5.00 a month or more to the Program. All we need is a bank account from which we can withdraw money. We need your bank's name, bank account number, and the bank's national routing number. Your bank can give you all of this information with one simple phone call. However, it would be best to get a voided check from you because that document has all the info we need. So, just throw that check book in your brief case and come ahead! Individuals aren't the only ones who can give. Any affiliate, chapter, division, or Federation group can get on the Program as long as you have a bank account, of course. We can take donations from savings accounts as long as the account permits external withdraws and you give the information noted above. Again, we will need your bank's name, your account number, and the bank's national, also known as ABA, routing number. As usual, We will be running a number of contests at Convention. For the NFB affiliate that has the most number of people/entities either start a new pledge or increase an existing one,, we will award the PAC Rat. The division with the most activity will receive the PAC Mule. At the national board meeting, I will be awarding special prizes to the state affiliates that have had the largest percentage increase over the last year, one award will go to a large affiliate and another to a smaller affiliate. Additionally, we will hold a cash drawing at the end of convention for two categories of people, those who start a new pledge and those who increase a pledge. The individual whose name is drawn will receive $150.00 in cash. There will be two drawings, one for the new pledges and one for the increases. However, if we reach our convention goal of increasing annualized PAC giving to $400,000.00 or more, the cash prizes will increase to $300.00. I look forward to seeing many of you at convention. For those who can't come, I look forward to your participation through other means. For example, I can email you a PAC form if you just shoot me a message at the below email. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. Chairman, PAC Plan Committee LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From jbahm at pcdesk.net Thu Jun 25 11:50:07 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:50:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A43646F.1070705@pcdesk.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Ashley, I don't claim to be any expert on research. I'm quite bad at it in fact unless it happens to be about something to do with computer security, software algorithms, cryptography, or some other completely geeky topic. However, I've given my thoughts on some of your questions below. Your question is quoted, followed by my thoughts. > 2. How do you use those PDF files? What can you do in Openbook to access them? > Many full text articles were PDF rendering them inaccessible without using a scanner. The fact a document is in PDF format doesn't automatically mean it can't be read. If you do come across one you can't read, the problem is most likely that you've got a PDF which simply contains a scanned image of an article instead of the actual text. The tell-tail sign of this is if you are told the document is empty when you open it in Acrobat. Many of the OCR packages out there can take such a PDF and run the image through OCR, thereby producing something you can read. I believe Openbook has this ability. I know for certain that Omnipage does since it's what I use. > 4. What do you do to determine if an article is relevant? So far I thought of reading > the abstract and/or intro. Sometimes I read entire articles only to find them not > as useful as I thought they would be based on the intro. I've never done research in the way you're thinking of, but in my occupation I do often have to thumb through books, magazine articles, the occasional journal article, white papers, etc. to see if there is anything useful to me in them. I've found the following techniques to be helpful. 1. As you suggested, read the abstract or introduction. 2. If the article is divided into sections, read the section titles, and possibly the first paragraph of each section to see if it yields anything promising. I'll give you an example of the process I might use. If I were looking for information on network intrusion detection systems, which is a topic I have needed to research. I might find an article on network monitoring, network defense, or remote exploitation of interest. From there, let's say I found a section called, "using encryption to protect against sniffing". Well, obviously that has nothing to do with anything I am interested in in this specific case. But let's say later I see something like, "detecting outside scans of your network". Well, since I know intrusion detection systems are used as one tool for that, that's a section I might want to take a closer look at. These titles are very boiler plate and hypothetical I know, but they illustrate the point. 3. If you know something about the content of the article, and you know what you're looking for, you might try searching the article for specific keywords. Continuing the previous example, I might look for things like: "intrusion detection", "network intrusion", "ids", "nids", "port scan", "exploit", "vulnerability" or "alarm". If I were on the other end, trying to sneak into someone's network unnoticed, I might be interested in keywords like, "elude" "eluding" "decoy" "evade" "evading" "penetration test" or "pen-test". This one requires you have a fairly good idea of exactly what you're looking for in order to form keywords or strings of keywords that will yield good results. In my case, it also requires a spell checker since I can't spell and a keyword search only works if you spell the keywords right. LOL Hope this helps. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKQ2RuAAoJEMh8jNraUiwq15IIAKiisktkMuE/Az5FY9zAQWfn 70uQAFOis71aV86SqQin/qu9UKdBZ4wYbvl+aFszwtHpHu3mM3xGqfjVAachRHvo oWb1l8+SLI5/vo0k//Tl/3dzuKWSQQhYBbtriyakdbd1e2hPXhclBR8YoflGdzzw /wi84SfkGgLUtZRKWVvBxEOi7WHHgvvlePAuDHGipOBiCQuAEUjdNhza9DGyjiw4 ykAUUsaoMFf3VYj6Pa7LcV/Tm+oaAYMOS06PsM0w9luHtIbNZEjQvf2Q1Gi6WkTC hpn5dRYS/YYHbzxjak9aehP10Tjd5TTATb4qHPQrtsVaL69v0RfFx+JAXFNw20A= =8T5b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 12:05:05 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:05:05 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Broke my firsy cane In-Reply-To: References: <632649.4990.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090625120505.GA44166@yumi.bluecherry.net> Arielle, The 50/50 only goes up to 64 and they're not making them anymore. Jim really needs a 69 or 71 inch model I think. Joseph On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 07:47:45AM +1000, Arielle Silverman wrote: >Hi Jim, > >Sorry; I forgot that the free canes have a more limited length >selection. You should be able to buy a 50/50 cane which folds in half >for $10, or a rigid or telescoping 70-inch or 72-inch fiberglass cane >for $25. > >Arielle From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 12:12:32 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 05:12:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Free NFB cane In-Reply-To: <397852.71300.qm@web65704.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <397852.71300.qm@web65704.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090625121232.GB44166@yumi.bluecherry.net> Jim, We generally recommend nose-high canes. A few use canes taller than they are, but only a few. *grin* I second your bafflement at the limitation in cane lengths. It should go as high as 69" at least. A lot of guys fall in the 65 and 67 range, and more than a few into the 69. I'd go straight for carbon fiber myself, which the NFB doesn't give away for free. They're light and they're strong. I might be concerned about a graphite/carbon cane in the frigid winter (can become more brittle), but the straight canes seem to be tough enough at least for Denver. Joseph On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:10:58AM -0700, Jim Reed wrote: >Hey all, > >I'm wondering why the free NFB canes are so short? I mean, I'm only 6 foot 4, and an NFB cane isn't long enough for me. I could understand the NFB not having a long enough cane for me if I was like 7 foot tall, but I am not that tall, and I am certianly not that far out of the norm for the average height of American males,  > >I find the 63 inch limit particularly odd since the NFB (or at least nost NFB members) all seem to recomend canes that are at least as tall, if not taller, than the person using it. This means (based on NFB recomendations) that a 63 inch cane should not be used by anyone taller than 5 foot 3. As far as I can tell, nearly all American men, and most American women and teenagers are going to be taller than 5 foot 3, so why won't the NFB offer a free cane that is large enough for most of society to benifit? I'm sure their is a legitimate and rational (probably economic) reason as to why the NFB has choosen to not offer canes longer than 63 inches, and I'd be curious to find out what that reason is. > > >Thanks, > >Jim > >"From compromise and things half done, >Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, >And when at last the fight is won, >... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net Thu Jun 25 14:19:48 2009 From: commanderlumpy2003 at earthlink.net (Kevin Wassmer) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:19:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Free NFB cane References: <397852.71300.qm@web65704.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20090625121232.GB44166@yumi.bluecherry.net> Message-ID: <1ED77418DE724DF1A364B11E6D1DE504@usore540475a8f> One thing about the free NFB canes is they fill very sexey. That might not matter to much because it will get scratched neat the bottem of the cane. But you have to admit the free NFB canes you get have a nice sexy feeling to them. Cause its been 18 days Since I first held you But to me it feels just like It feels like a lifetime I'm trying hard to re-arrange Some say its the hardest thing to do But that's another 18 days Without you.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "T. Joseph Carter" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 6:12 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free NFB cane > Jim, > > We generally recommend nose-high canes. A few use canes taller than they > are, but only a few. *grin* > > I second your bafflement at the limitation in cane lengths. It should go > as high as 69" at least. A lot of guys fall in the 65 and 67 range, and > more than a few into the 69. > > I'd go straight for carbon fiber myself, which the NFB doesn't give away > for free. They're light and they're strong. I might be concerned about a > graphite/carbon cane in the frigid winter (can become more brittle), but > the straight canes seem to be tough enough at least for Denver. > > Joseph > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:10:58AM -0700, Jim Reed wrote: >>Hey all, >>I'm wondering why the free NFB canes are so short? I mean, I'm only 6 foot >>4, and an NFB cane isn't long enough for me. I could understand the NFB >>not having a long enough cane for me if I was like 7 foot tall, but I am >>not that tall, and I am certianly not that far out of the norm for the >>average height of American males, >>I find the 63 inch limit particularly odd since the NFB (or at least nost >>NFB members) all seem to recomend canes that are at least as tall, if not >>taller, than the person using it. This means (based on NFB recomendations) >>that a 63 inch cane should not be used by anyone taller than 5 foot 3. As >>far as I can tell, nearly all American men, and most American women and >>teenagers are going to be taller than 5 foot 3, so why won't the NFB offer >>a free cane that is large enough for most of society to benifit? I'm sure >>their is a legitimate and rational (probably economic) reason as to why >>the NFB has choosen to not offer canes longer than 63 inches, and I'd be >>curious to find out what that reason is. >> >>Thanks, >>Jim >> >>"From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn >>pride, >>And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis >>Untermeyer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/commanderlumpy2003%40earthlink.net > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 17:54:45 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:54:45 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases In-Reply-To: <4A43646F.1070705@pcdesk.net> References: <4A43646F.1070705@pcdesk.net> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, A couple of points not mentioned: Most newer articles are going to be accessible PDF's. If you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your computer, email it to your Gmail account and then select the "View attachment as html" option. This only works for nonscanned PDF's, but as I said before, most newer articles are not scanned PDF's. If you do get a scanned PDF which says "empty document" when you try to open in Adobe, run it through OpenBook, Kurzweil or Omni Page. Psyc Info is accessible, as well as Academic Search Premier (Ebscohost). These are the two databases I use the most. Ebscohost also has a lot of articles in full-text html, which is easier to navigate through than PDF. I rarely use readers for research unless I have to select hard copy books. For articles, I usually just read the abstract and if I like that, read the first couple pages of the article before deciding whether or not it's helpful. Sometimes even if articles themselves aren't exactly topical, they will lead you to good references, so read the reference section too. And, by all means, take notes on some kind of Braille device while reading with JAWS. HTH, Arielle On 6/25/09, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > Ashley, > I don't claim to be any expert on research. I'm quite bad at it in fact > unless it happens to be about something to do with computer security, > software algorithms, cryptography, or some other completely geeky topic. > However, I've given my thoughts on some of your questions below. Your > question is quoted, followed by my thoughts. > >> 2. How do you use those PDF files? What can you do in Openbook to access >> them? >> Many full text articles were PDF rendering them inaccessible without using >> a scanner. > > The fact a document is in PDF format doesn't automatically mean it can't > be read. If you do come across one you can't read, the problem is most > likely that you've got a PDF which simply contains a scanned image of an > article instead of the actual text. The tell-tail sign of this is if you > are told the document is empty when you open it in Acrobat. Many of the > OCR packages out there can take such a PDF and run the image through > OCR, thereby producing something you can read. I believe Openbook has > this ability. I know for certain that Omnipage does since it's what I use. > >> 4. What do you do to determine if an article is relevant? So far I >> thought of reading >> the abstract and/or intro. Sometimes I read entire articles only to find >> them not >> as useful as I thought they would be based on the intro. > > I've never done research in the way you're thinking of, but in my > occupation I do often have to thumb through books, magazine articles, > the occasional journal article, white papers, etc. to see if there is > anything useful to me in them. I've found the following techniques to be > helpful. > > 1. As you suggested, read the abstract or introduction. > > 2. If the article is divided into sections, read the section titles, and > possibly the first paragraph of each section to see if it yields > anything promising. I'll give you an example of the process I might use. > If I were looking for information on network intrusion detection > systems, which is a topic I have needed to research. I might find an > article on network monitoring, network defense, or remote exploitation > of interest. From there, let's say I found a section called, "using > encryption to protect against sniffing". Well, obviously that has > nothing to do with anything I am interested in in this specific case. > But let's say later I see something like, "detecting outside scans of > your network". Well, since I know intrusion detection systems are used > as one tool for that, that's a section I might want to take a closer > look at. These titles are very boiler plate and hypothetical I know, but > they illustrate the point. > > 3. If you know something about the content of the article, and you know > what you're looking for, you might try searching the article for > specific keywords. Continuing the previous example, I might look for > things like: "intrusion detection", "network intrusion", "ids", "nids", > "port scan", "exploit", "vulnerability" or "alarm". If I were on the > other end, trying to sneak into someone's network unnoticed, I might be > interested in keywords like, "elude" "eluding" "decoy" "evade" "evading" > "penetration test" or "pen-test". This one requires you have a fairly > good idea of exactly what you're looking for in order to form keywords > or strings of keywords that will yield good results. In my case, it also > requires a spell checker since I can't spell and a keyword search only > works if you spell the keywords right. LOL > > Hope this helps. > Joe > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) > > iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKQ2RuAAoJEMh8jNraUiwq15IIAKiisktkMuE/Az5FY9zAQWfn > 70uQAFOis71aV86SqQin/qu9UKdBZ4wYbvl+aFszwtHpHu3mM3xGqfjVAachRHvo > oWb1l8+SLI5/vo0k//Tl/3dzuKWSQQhYBbtriyakdbd1e2hPXhclBR8YoflGdzzw > /wi84SfkGgLUtZRKWVvBxEOi7WHHgvvlePAuDHGipOBiCQuAEUjdNhza9DGyjiw4 > ykAUUsaoMFf3VYj6Pa7LcV/Tm+oaAYMOS06PsM0w9luHtIbNZEjQvf2Q1Gi6WkTC > hpn5dRYS/YYHbzxjak9aehP10Tjd5TTATb4qHPQrtsVaL69v0RfFx+JAXFNw20A= > =8T5b > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From Priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 18:07:02 2009 From: Priscillagarces1987 at hotmail.com (priscilla) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:07:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Discrimination Vs ignorance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, Im so excited towards going to convention on july 2nd and look forwards towards meeting new people and making new friendships. Anyway, I think that ignorance is one of the worst diseases rather than any other medical condition that can threaten your life. I think that ignorance is the worse disease because when people are very ignorant, they often become completely blind about the fact that everyone else is different in many ways. For example, people often treat aids patients like they are worth nothing to nobody. This goes towards anyone else who is different in other ways. I can relate to this because of personal experiences that made me realize that there are some people who are so ignorant that they are emotionally blind. I had a math teacher in the eighth grade who did not think that I was going to pass my math class because she thought I was slow and incompetent. She thought t this way because no mater how hard she try to explain things in regards to math class, I wouldn't get it. Why I wouldn't get the concept? Well because the way she explained things made no sense because she never described what she was doing on the board and never showed me what to do step by step whenever I needed help after school for homework. Then, she did not give me a chance to write out my homework in my own words because she didn't realize I could use my own ideas and that because I was slow, she had to spoonfeed my brain by making me write out the problem in words that were different than what I would write so I can comprehend. I was only 13 then, so I told mom about the situation and she then told the principle. Her ignorance blinded her because she never saw beyond her own nose and did not realize the capabilities I had. Another experience was during my senior year of high school when I took computer classes with a teacher who didn't think I could work with certain programs because again the same thing. >From the years in college, I haven't been discriminated because of this since many of the people whom I meet are willing to learn more about what I can do. Anyway, I wanted to study abroad and some of the professors were concerned because of the safety isues surrounding the experience. This summer I wanted to study abroad in Europe for one of my electives for international relations, and one of the professors said that Europe is not really a good place to go because of my first experience and that he is concerned about my comfort level. I will admit that I never traveled alone since I never had a chance to wander off mostly because everyone including myself is busy with work and school. + my dad especially is to afraid to let me go to a foreign country alone. But, I will fly to the convention for the first time with my parents which I am very excited since I feel weird going next to mom on the airplane while all my friends hand out with each other during the flight. This is even weird if I had to travel to Europ for a school trip with mom while all the other college kids are doing there own things besids me because for some reason, I feel kind of restricted. I feel this way because I have a preference of hanging out with friends who are my age. I also feel free without my parents because of the independence. Its not the same to joke around with a group of young people about planning to do pranks at a dorm than joke about it with the same group of people next to an older adult. The older adults tend to become irritated by them then we are, especially mom. This is only a scenario that I did just to see the difference between having an older adult such as a parent coming along with a bunch of young people on a college sponsored trip. I think that discrimination is mostly based on the actions done to a person who is different while the stereotype is based on an attitude which I completely agree with one of the posts. I hope to see you all at convention. Thank you very much Priscilla -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:00 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 32, Issue 31 Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to nabs-l at nfbnet.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org You can reach the person managing the list at nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ignorance vs. Prejudice (Beth) 2. Can I listen to some conventin events on line? (V Nork) 3. Re: Ignorance vs. Prejudice (Teal Bloodworth) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:51:03 -0400 From: Beth Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Message-ID: <4383d01d0906240851gcade24bg7048fd02f43a8ed3 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I agree with Janice. No pet fees, no deposits, nothing should be forced on you because the guide dog is not a pet. It's the same thing if you needed a wheelchair and you were also paralyzed and had one of them little monkeys. Beth On 6/24/09, Janice wrote: > Hello Teal, > > You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, > or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not a > pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, I > was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights on > it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode of > action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest > that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with > him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye > dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of an > issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even in > areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, I > would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you > shouldn't have to ask for either. > Cheers, > > Janice > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dezman Jackson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jess" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Teal, >> They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have >> the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you >> get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to discriminate >> >> against you because you have a disability. My fianc?e and I have been >> living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York >> which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of >> 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside >> of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend >> work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with >> your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just >> not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 >> housing . >> Jessica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Teal Blooworth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi All >>> >>> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular topic. >>> >>> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >>> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >>> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >>> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >>> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after some >>> >>> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >>> to talk to us any longer. >>> >>> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >>> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >>> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >>> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had a >>> >>> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >>> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target and >>> >>> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >>> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >>> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >>> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >>> follow our dreams but still we are people. >>> >>> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >>> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >>> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >>> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >>> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >>> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >>> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >>> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >>> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >>> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >>> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >>> >>> -Teal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>>> >>>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>>> slope. >>>>> Sarah >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all,, >>>>>> >>>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>>> out >>>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>>> >>>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, or >>>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>>> LCB. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>>> times >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>>> bee >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>>> helping >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like I >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>>> happen in >>>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know the >>>>>>> steps >>>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will open >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>>> morning. >>>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>>> second-class >>>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the tendency >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>>> sight >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>>> leave >>>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>>> perform >>>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>>> fact >>>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our alternative >>>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>>> it". >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M for >>>>>>> thirty >>>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>>> we've >>>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>>> difference >>>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not ignorance, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>>> education, >>>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>>> "gut" >>>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students may >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>>> yet, >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher is >>>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>>> Braille. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>>> figures >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>>> training >>>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>>> skills, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>>> treat us >>>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>>> tend to >>>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> treat >>>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before me, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my mother, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read many >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>>> own). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who don't? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>>> educating >>>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>>> educators >>>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gma il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gma il.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.c om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm ail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 08:55:24 -0700 From: "V Nork" Subject: [nabs-l] Can I listen to some conventin events on line? To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi All, I would have loved to attend the NFB convention, alas it was not possible for me this year. Just writing to ask if some of the workshops or speeches can be heard somehow on line, as in live streaming or other audio feeds? Thanks, ginnie ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:26:13 -0500 From: "Teal Bloodworth" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Message-ID: <0BFDE4B861AC4D5394434278C523F743 at teal6e6857f643> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original what about a snake for seizures? there is an animal for just about everything now and you really wouldnt think about them helping. A friend told me that i didnt necessarily have to tell them even about the guide dog but i am not sure. -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice I agree with Janice. No pet fees, no deposits, nothing should be forced on you because the guide dog is not a pet. It's the same thing if you needed a wheelchair and you were also paralyzed and had one of them little monkeys. Beth On 6/24/09, Janice wrote: > Hello Teal, > > You are not allowed to be asked to pay a pet fee, a pet deposit, pet rent, > or anything else that is related to such. This is because your dog is not > a > pet. it is and will be a mobility aid. When I went to TSE- The Seeing Eye, > I > was provided little cards with the ADA and dog guide accessibility rights > on > it. I am sure that once you know exactly what your school preferred mode > of > action in these cases is, it will be easier to deal with. Might I suggest > that you just do not mention the dog for now. Then when you come back with > him/ her deal with it then. I have lived in dorm rooms with my Seeing Eye > dog, various apartments and houses, etc... and not really had too much of > an > issue. You know it is within your right by the law to have the dog, even > in > areas where dogs are quote "not allowed", because they are not a pet. So, > I > would say ask for forgiveness and not for permission... even though you > shouldn't have to ask for either. > Cheers, > > Janice > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dezman Jackson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:16 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > > Actually, I don't think you would even have to pay a pet fee. > > Dezman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jess" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice > > >> Teal, >> They are not allowed to discriminate against you especially when you have >> the guide dog. You may have to pay a pet deposit on an apartment once you >> get a guide dog but that is it. It's also illegal for them to >> discriminate >> >> against you because you have a disability. My fianc?e and I have been >> living in New York State since 2004. We lived in Cheektowaga New York >> which is 15 minutes outside of Buffalo from August of 2004 to December of >> 2005. Then moved to Watervliet New York which is fifteen minutes outside >> of Albany New York from December of 2005 to present. Does your boyfriend >> work or anything? The apartment complexes would have to accept you with >> your guide dog since about 90% of the time he or she is working and just >> not a pet. If neither one of you is working you could file for section 8 >> housing . >> Jessica >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Teal Blooworth" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 9:31 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >> >> >>> Hi All >>> >>> Actually I have found myself and others discussing this particular >>> topic. >>> >>> Stacey, Tim and I a couple weeks ago in Louisville ventured out on many >>> occasions to highland coffee and then later 4th st live and actually >>> everybody wanted to just take us there opposed to simply telling us left >>> or right or just directions when needed. People would "help" us off the >>> bus or to the bus stop rather than let us try it ourselves but after >>> some >>> >>> of them talked to us they realized we were people too and werent afraid >>> to talk to us any longer. >>> >>> In owensboro where i go to school though it is a different situation. >>> Teachers treat you differently in class and with me being the only blind >>> person on campus i was alienated. On one occasion the social psychology >>> class was doing a project "braking the social norms" and i actually had >>> a >>> >>> student ask me to borrow my cane for this project. In shock, I let the >>> girl borrow my spare cane just to find out that they went into target >>> and >>> >>> knocked stuff off of the shelves. This is a stereotype and us as blind >>> people cannot do that and really may be treated differently and >>> stereotipically but still have to follow the same set of rules. Yes we >>> have some accomodations, and yes we do have to work alittle harder to >>> follow our dreams but still we are people. >>> >>> One thing i have found is that some people really are curious and do ask >>> questions and personally i feel this is a good thing because they are >>> curious and if they know hoew to help you then there is a chance they >>> will. My boyfriend is also fine with the blindness and has really been a >>> big help but he still worries about me doing things alone which is >>> understandable. As for discrimination last week me and him were looking >>> at apartments and the people gave us the run around and i think this was >>> because i am blind. Also these apartments were not pet friendly and >>> friday i found out i was accepted to guiding eyes in new york for the >>> june 29th slot and they completely turned us down when i told them. >>> discrimination is out there but is it really worht all the fuss? >>> >>> -Teal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:48 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> According to social psychologists, prejudice is defined as an >>>> emotional reaction (usually negative, but can be positive) to members >>>> of a particular group. In common usage prejudice is often confused >>>> with stereotyping and discrimination. The three are related, but >>>> prejudice is the emotional component, while stereotyping is the >>>> attitude/cognition component and discrimination is the behavioral >>>> component. In the case of blindness, prejudice might be someone's >>>> reluctance to talk to us (fear or disgust), fear of becoming blind or >>>> anxiety about our safety. Stereotypes might include "blind people are >>>> slow/incompetent/dirty/can't do X job" or "blind people are all good >>>> at music". Discrimination would be actions like not teaching us to >>>> read, not letting us sit where we want on an airplane or giving us >>>> preferential treatment like less homework or discounted bus fare. What >>>> the three all have in common is that, even though technically they >>>> can all be either positive or negative, they arise from our group >>>> membership and lead to us all being treated or thought of as the same >>>> because of what group we belong to (i.e. blind people) rather than >>>> our individual strengths and weaknesses. >>>> >>>> My argument before was that the emotional component (prejudice) is >>>> what underlies a lot of the persistent and hostile discrimination we >>>> get (no matter how many times you show someone how you do a job, they >>>> still don't think you can do it safely/won't let you try) as well as >>>> a lot of deficiencies in the services and education we get (people >>>> feel an emotional aversion twoard blindness, and so are less willing >>>> to give us Braille/canes/let us have independent life experiences). >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 6/17/09, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Can we define prejudice? I know the meaning of the word but perhaps a >>>>> clearer definition or an example as it relates to blindness would >>>>> help. I'm just afraid this will turn into a sighted people bashing >>>>> event; I've seen it before (not on this list) but it's a slippery >>>>> slope. >>>>> Sarah >>>>> >>>>> Quoting Antonio Guimaraes : >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all,, >>>>>> >>>>>> We sometimes seam to do things to prove a point. I would rather take >>>>>> part in some activity because I enjoy it, and want to get something >>>>>> out >>>>>> of it than I have to prove to sighted people that I can dance, walk, >>>>>> swim, speak, read, sing, breathe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Some days we tolerate ignorance better than others, but we should not >>>>>> tolerate discrimination at any time. >>>>>> >>>>>> When have you been discriminated against, and what steps did you take >>>>>> to resolve the situation? What steps should you have taken instead, >>>>>> or >>>>>> do you think your actions were appropriate? >>>>>> >>>>>> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" >>>>>> >>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 3:21 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hmm this sounds like a seminar topic we once might have had at the >>>>>>> LCB. >>>>>>> I've >>>>>>> ben lucky so far. My dance teacher is making me, for the first fiew >>>>>>> times >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> I can get my barengs use my cane while doing the steps, and mainly >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> get my ballence issues sorted out, but there will come a time, and >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> already has where I am out there on my own with theother students >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> have to perform this stuff in less then a month. Will I have my cane >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> dance with, no, but I feel confident enough to know the ruteen and >>>>>>> bee >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the exact pisition I'm supposed to be in. Now the person who is >>>>>>> helping >>>>>>> me >>>>>>> just needs to tell me the steps and when to move and whair but like >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> said >>>>>>> bnefore there will come a time when even that will probably not >>>>>>> happen in >>>>>>> performance day. Am I afraid, Yes. However, I know that if I know >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> steps >>>>>>> and get my barengs, I will be able ot show the sighted audience that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance even though I have no site. There is a lot of truth in what >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> and I believe that by showing the sighted people, in my case that I >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> dance, maybe not well, but I can dance, sing, and act, this will >>>>>>> open >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> eyes, and many doors for me, and other blind people in the future. I >>>>>>> hope >>>>>>> what I said makes sence. Sorry I rambled it is way too early in the >>>>>>> morning. >>>>>>> Hehaha! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh just in case anyone is interested in the dance class and what we >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> google "life long dreams" in Nevada. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >>>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Arielle Silverman >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 10:01 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Ignorance vs. Prejudice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Recently we've been talking about airline discrimination, which has >>>>>>> historically served as a good representation of the kind of >>>>>>> second-class >>>>>>> treatment that we often get in everyday interactions with members of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> public. I think Jedi made some good points in describing the >>>>>>> tendency >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> some sighted people to judge us as incompetent based on the role of >>>>>>> sight >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> their own lives and their assumption that losing their sight would >>>>>>> leave >>>>>>> them incapacitated. It is true that we are a tiny minority (even >>>>>>> within >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> disabled >>>>>>> community) and that a lot of sighted people simply don't know how we >>>>>>> perform >>>>>>> everyday tasks. In some cases this ignorance leads to discriminatory >>>>>>> treatment ("The blind person can't sit in the exit >>>>>>> row") or stereotypes ("Blind people are slow"). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I've always found fascinating, though, is that lack of >>>>>>> knowledge-ignorance-doesn't always translate into discrimination. In >>>>>>> fact >>>>>>> many sighted people are simply curious, and if we tell or show them >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> use the computer, read or travel, they quickly accept our >>>>>>> alternative >>>>>>> techniques and treat us just the same as everyone else. >>>>>>> But this doesn't happen all the time. And then, on the flip side, >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> those who know all the facts about blindness and still "don't get >>>>>>> it". >>>>>>> This >>>>>>> includes, for instance, the mobility instructor who's taught O&M >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> thirty >>>>>>> years but who still insists that you should walk three blocks out of >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> way rather than cross a busy intersection. Many of us find that our >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> parents make more of a big deal out of our blindness than do people >>>>>>> we've >>>>>>> just met, even if our parents have met competent blind people or >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> blindness workshops, know Braille, etc. So there definitely is a >>>>>>> difference >>>>>>> between ignorance and prejudice. The combination of both is bad, but >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> easily have one without the other. And it's prejudice, not >>>>>>> ignorance, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> actually causes us trouble. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, while we can easily remedy ignorance with simple >>>>>>> education, >>>>>>> alleviating prejudice isn't that simple. It seems like much of the >>>>>>> persistence of people's prejudices comes from their emotional or >>>>>>> "gut" >>>>>>> reactions to blindness. The experienced teacher of blind students >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> all the facts about Braille, including the fact that children who >>>>>>> learn >>>>>>> Braille while young can read just as fast as sighted children. And >>>>>>> yet, >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> some gut level the teacher feels an aversion to Braille, seeing it >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> stigma or a symbol of weakness. So no matter how well this teacher >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> trained, if she gets a kid in her caseload who has partial sight, >>>>>>> it's >>>>>>> going >>>>>>> to be a struggle for the teacher to actively teach the child >>>>>>> Braille. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> parent who finds his child's blindness frightening, likewise, is >>>>>>> going to >>>>>>> have a hard time letting the child play outside or do chores, no >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> much he reads about what is best for blind children, unless he >>>>>>> figures >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> how to let go of his fear. I think so much of the success of our >>>>>>> training >>>>>>> centers comes from their ability to not only teach us practical >>>>>>> skills, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> also help us overcome our own fears and negative feelings about >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And yet, as Monica has demonstrated, there are those sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> display a lack of prejudice and who automatically include us and >>>>>>> treat us >>>>>>> normally without any prior knowledge about blindness or education on >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> parts. We all know sighted people like this, even though we often >>>>>>> tend to >>>>>>> spend most of our mental energy grumbling about the sighted people >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> treat >>>>>>> us strangely. My boyfriend never met a single blind person before >>>>>>> me, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> yet in some ways seems to instinctively "get it" more than my >>>>>>> mother, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> example, who besides raising me for twenty-four years, also read >>>>>>> many >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> leading books about raising a blind child. (Never mind that many of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> messages espoused in those books are rooted in prejudices of their >>>>>>> own). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So what do you guys think makes the difference between those >>>>>>> members of the sighted public who show prejudice and those who >>>>>>> don't? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> something about their personalities or experiences? And if simple >>>>>>> educating >>>>>>> isn't enough to address people's deep-seated emotional reactions, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> we do about it? Do we have any control over whether the sighted guy >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> street grabs us or treats us with respect? It's easy enough for us >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> tell >>>>>>> who will be responsive to education about blindness and who won't. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> those who aren't responsive, how do we deal with them civilly while >>>>>>> still >>>>>>> protecting our rights and our freedom? And how do we deal with >>>>>>> educators >>>>>>> like O&M instructors, who have power over what we learn or what >>>>>>> accommodations we get but whose judgments are affected by their >>>>>>> misconceptions about blindness? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I look forward to a lively discussion on this topic, as it's central >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> how >>>>>>> we act as an organization and how we can really change what it means >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> blind for ourselves and for others. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto ronto.ca >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gma il.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan %40gmail.com >> >> >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gma il.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.c om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gm ail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gma il.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 32, Issue 31 ************************************** From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 18:27:38 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases Message-ID: <967937.54297.qm@web65702.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Ashley, Thanks for writing this post. I had never really stopped to take a moment to consider how a blind person (using non-visual techniques) would go about writing a research paper. Wow, talk about a hard job made even harder! First, I wouldn't entierly dismiss the possibility of a reader. The internship is only temporary, so call your VR office to see if they will pay for a reader, since the position is only temporary, they may consider a reader a valid and worthwhile expense that will eventually help you land full time permant employment. Are you taking this internship for shool credit? If so, maybe the school DSS office can help with a reader. The only research suggrstion I have for you is to not forget about the face-to-face (or over the phone) interview. You can get alot of information, contacts, and leads via interviews. Don't forget that you work for an agency that provideds federal grant money; community leaders and law enforcement personell should want to talk to you. Use that to your advantage. Hope this helps and thanks for the info, Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Ashley Bramlett wrote: From: Ashley Bramlett Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 8:33 PM Hi all, This is sort of a school question but also one for life.  We have to research on the job so it won't go away. Since there's new people on the list, maybe some new ideas will come about.  I graduated with a BA in liberal studies, studying social science and communication.  I'm getting an internship  and research has come up.  I will help them research crime prevention and bullying and maybe other things; I'm working for the National crime prevention Council. Although I survived research and writing papers, it was something I disliked; it was time consuming and frustrating.  My school had online databases but I still used hard copy sources in addition to online.  Some info just wasn't electronic.  Due to problems like the inability to skim with jaws for key things, image PDFs and paper sources, I used readers mainly.  I directed them to skim for certain key points.  We read abstracts in journals or table of contents if a book to see if it was relevant.  Then we picked out the actual sections and read them. I researched on my own through the internet as well. I wonder what I can do if anything to do research better.  I need to be more independent with it since I do not have a reader on the job.  That's too bad because they can skim well where as with jaws you can only go by paragraph to get a sense of the document. My questions are: 1. Which databases did you find accessible?  Is PSYCH Info accessible? 2. How do you use those PDF files?  What can you do in Openbook to access them? Many full text articles were PDF rendering them inaccessible without using a scanner. 3. In databases with PDFs, do you find an option for a HTML link wich is a text link?  When searching google.com they have PDF files as HTML as well. 4. What do you do to determine if an article is relevant?  So far I thought of reading the abstract and/or intro.  Sometimes I read entire articles only to find them not as useful as I thought they would be based on the intro. 5. Is googlescholar.com accessible? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From raniaismail04 at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 18:40:26 2009 From: raniaismail04 at gmail.com (Rania) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:40:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases References: <4A43646F.1070705@pcdesk.net> Message-ID: <000501c9f5c4$69a6e430$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> I didn't know we could do that with g mail. Pritty cool! Rania, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases > Hi Ashley, > > A couple of points not mentioned: > > Most newer articles are going to be accessible PDF's. If you use > Gmail, you can save the PDF to your computer, email it to your Gmail > account and then select the "View attachment as html" option. This > only works for nonscanned PDF's, but as I said before, most newer > articles are not scanned PDF's. If you do get a scanned PDF which says > "empty document" when you try to open in Adobe, run it through > OpenBook, Kurzweil or Omni Page. > > Psyc Info is accessible, as well as Academic Search Premier > (Ebscohost). These are the two databases I use the most. Ebscohost > also has a lot of articles in full-text html, which is easier to > navigate through than PDF. > > I rarely use readers for research unless I have to select hard copy > books. For articles, I usually just read the abstract and if I like > that, read the first couple pages of the article before deciding > whether or not it's helpful. Sometimes even if articles themselves > aren't exactly topical, they will lead you to good references, so read > the reference section too. And, by all means, take notes on some kind > of Braille device while reading with JAWS. > > HTH, > Arielle > > On 6/25/09, Joseph C. Lininger wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA256 >> >> Ashley, >> I don't claim to be any expert on research. I'm quite bad at it in fact >> unless it happens to be about something to do with computer security, >> software algorithms, cryptography, or some other completely geeky topic. >> However, I've given my thoughts on some of your questions below. Your >> question is quoted, followed by my thoughts. >> >>> 2. How do you use those PDF files? What can you do in Openbook to >>> access >>> them? >>> Many full text articles were PDF rendering them inaccessible without >>> using >>> a scanner. >> >> The fact a document is in PDF format doesn't automatically mean it can't >> be read. If you do come across one you can't read, the problem is most >> likely that you've got a PDF which simply contains a scanned image of an >> article instead of the actual text. The tell-tail sign of this is if you >> are told the document is empty when you open it in Acrobat. Many of the >> OCR packages out there can take such a PDF and run the image through >> OCR, thereby producing something you can read. I believe Openbook has >> this ability. I know for certain that Omnipage does since it's what I >> use. >> >>> 4. What do you do to determine if an article is relevant? So far I >>> thought of reading >>> the abstract and/or intro. Sometimes I read entire articles only to >>> find >>> them not >>> as useful as I thought they would be based on the intro. >> >> I've never done research in the way you're thinking of, but in my >> occupation I do often have to thumb through books, magazine articles, >> the occasional journal article, white papers, etc. to see if there is >> anything useful to me in them. I've found the following techniques to be >> helpful. >> >> 1. As you suggested, read the abstract or introduction. >> >> 2. If the article is divided into sections, read the section titles, and >> possibly the first paragraph of each section to see if it yields >> anything promising. I'll give you an example of the process I might use. >> If I were looking for information on network intrusion detection >> systems, which is a topic I have needed to research. I might find an >> article on network monitoring, network defense, or remote exploitation >> of interest. From there, let's say I found a section called, "using >> encryption to protect against sniffing". Well, obviously that has >> nothing to do with anything I am interested in in this specific case. >> But let's say later I see something like, "detecting outside scans of >> your network". Well, since I know intrusion detection systems are used >> as one tool for that, that's a section I might want to take a closer >> look at. These titles are very boiler plate and hypothetical I know, but >> they illustrate the point. >> >> 3. If you know something about the content of the article, and you know >> what you're looking for, you might try searching the article for >> specific keywords. Continuing the previous example, I might look for >> things like: "intrusion detection", "network intrusion", "ids", "nids", >> "port scan", "exploit", "vulnerability" or "alarm". If I were on the >> other end, trying to sneak into someone's network unnoticed, I might be >> interested in keywords like, "elude" "eluding" "decoy" "evade" "evading" >> "penetration test" or "pen-test". This one requires you have a fairly >> good idea of exactly what you're looking for in order to form keywords >> or strings of keywords that will yield good results. In my case, it also >> requires a spell checker since I can't spell and a keyword search only >> works if you spell the keywords right. LOL >> >> Hope this helps. >> Joe >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) >> >> iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKQ2RuAAoJEMh8jNraUiwq15IIAKiisktkMuE/Az5FY9zAQWfn >> 70uQAFOis71aV86SqQin/qu9UKdBZ4wYbvl+aFszwtHpHu3mM3xGqfjVAachRHvo >> oWb1l8+SLI5/vo0k//Tl/3dzuKWSQQhYBbtriyakdbd1e2hPXhclBR8YoflGdzzw >> /wi84SfkGgLUtZRKWVvBxEOi7WHHgvvlePAuDHGipOBiCQuAEUjdNhza9DGyjiw4 >> ykAUUsaoMFf3VYj6Pa7LcV/Tm+oaAYMOS06PsM0w9luHtIbNZEjQvf2Q1Gi6WkTC >> hpn5dRYS/YYHbzxjak9aehP10Tjd5TTATb4qHPQrtsVaL69v0RfFx+JAXFNw20A= >> =8T5b >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com From corbbo at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 18:57:31 2009 From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbb O'Connor) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:57:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: U.S. Department of State Opportunity! In-Reply-To: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B01008D3C@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> References: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B01008D3C@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local> Message-ID: <4ed9a39a0906251157r6a427e7crf9e64f3dd237e217@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carranza, Rosy Date: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 2:55 PM Subject: U.S. Department of State Opportunity! If you are a motivated college student looking to learn more about internship and employment opportunities through the U.S. Department of State, then this message is for you! The U.S. Department of State is hosting a unique mentoring opportunity for students to learn about the variety of internship and employment options available through their network. We are helping them identify undergraduate or graduate students to participate in their day-long mentoring program on Wednesday, October 21, 2009. Spots are very limited, and interested students should email Joanne Wilson at jwilson at nfb.org by Thursday, July 16, 2009. This event will expose students to a variety of Department professionals with and without disabilities, to the Department's history/mission, to careers in civil/foreign service, and to intern, hiring, and recruitment programs in the Department. All participants must be U.S. citizens, full-time undergraduate or graduate/law students with at least a 3.0 G.P.A. on a 4.0 scale, and have a targeted disability. All participants will need to arrange and pay for their own transportation to and from the Department.  However, lunch is expected to be provided to student participants. While the Department's mission is one of foreign affairs, the Department's workforce consists of thousands of employees in either the Civil Service (CS) or in the Foreign Service (FS), and these employees' educations and professions vary widely.   Accordingly, student participants who are interested in or pursuing any of a variety of  studies or professions are welcome, including but not limited to the following: Business Management, Economics, Finance, Human Resource Management, Information Technology/Computer Science, International Affairs/Relations, Law, Physics, Political  Science, Psychology, Public Affairs, Public Diplomacy, Social Work.  More information should be available off of http://careers.state.gov. If you wish to be considered for this opportunity, please contact Joanne Wilson at (410) 659-9314, ext. 2335 or via email at   jwilson at nfb.org. You will need to send Joanne your most recent CV or resume, and a brief (no more than one-page) statement outlining why you want to participate in this event by Thursday, July 16. We are only able to select four students; therefore, we will review your information, and    will forward your materials to our contacts at the Department by July 23. You should hear something from the Department by late August. Good luck, and don't pass up this outstanding opportunity! Rosy Carranza From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 25 20:14:50 2009 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Dave Wright) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:14:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Easy Brailles with Bluetooth and USB for sale Message-ID: <41ED4188315548A6BC471ACBB746B97D@dwrigh6> Hi all, The new Handy Tech Easy Braille with HID support has begun shipping and as a result, Handy Tech North America has two used Easy Braille with Bluetooth 40 cell Braille displays for sale for only $2,495.00. these are demo units that are in like new condition and comes with a 1 year Product service agreement (PSA) which may be extended for up to 3 years from date of purchase. This is an outstanding bargain and these two units will be let go on the first come first serve basis. If you have questions, please don't hesitate to contact us at: 651-636-5184 sales at handytech.us Best Regards: Dave Wright Work Phone: 651-636-5184 X803 Email: dwrigh6 at gmail.com WebPage: http://www.knfbreader.com From JFreeh at nfb.org Thu Jun 25 20:25:15 2009 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:25:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind and American Council of the Blind File Discrimination Suit Against Arizona State University Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind and American Council of the Blind File Discrimination Suit Against Arizona State University University’s Amazon Kindle DX Pilot Program Discriminates Against the Blind Baltimore, Maryland (June 25, 2009): The National Federation of the Blind (NFB) and the American Council of the Blind (ACB) filed suit today against Arizona State University (ASU) to prevent the university from deploying Amazon’s Kindle DX electronic reading device as a means of distributing electronic textbooks to its students because the device cannot be used by blind students. Darrell Shandrow, a blind ASU student, is also a named plaintiff in the action. The Kindle DX features text-to-speech technology that can read textbooks aloud to blind students. The menus of the device are not accessible to the blind, however, making it impossible for a blind user to purchase books from Amazon’s Kindle store, select a book to read, activate the text-to-speech feature, and use the advanced reading functions available on the Kindle DX. In addition to ASU, five other institutions of higher education are deploying the Kindle DX as part of a pilot project to assess the role of electronic textbooks and reading devices in the classroom. The NFB and ACB have also filed complaints with the Office for Civil Rights of the U.S. Department of Education and the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice, asking for investigations of these five institutions, which are: Case Western Reserve University, the Darden School of Business at the University of Virginia, Pace University, Princeton University, and Reed College. The lawsuit and complaints allege violations of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: “Given the highly-advanced technology involved, there is no good reason that Amazon’s Kindle DX device should be inaccessible to blind students. Amazon could have used the same text-to-speech technology that reads e-books on the device aloud to make its menus accessible to the blind, but it chose not to do so. Worse yet, six American higher education institutions that are subject to federal laws requiring that they not discriminate against students with disabilities plan to deploy this device, even though they know that it cannot be used by blind students. The National Federation of the Blind will not tolerate this unconscionable discrimination against and callous indifference to the right of blind students to receive an equal education. We hope that this situation can be rectified in a manner that allows this exciting new reading technology to be made available to blind and sighted students alike.” Darrell Shandrow, a blind student pursuing a degree in journalism at ASU, said: “Not having access to the advanced reading features of the Kindle DX­including the ability to download books and course materials, add my own bookmarks and notes, and look up supplemental information instantly on the Internet when I encounter it in my reading­will lock me out of this new technology and put me and other blind students at a competitive disadvantage relative to our sighted peers. While my peers will have instant access to their course materials in electronic form, I will still have to wait weeks or months for accessible texts to be prepared for me, and these texts will not provide the access and features available to other students. That is why I am standing up for myself and with other blind Americans to end this blatant discrimination.” ### From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 25 20:38:36 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Free NFB cane Message-ID: <656091.34526.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Do you suppose the 63 inch cane limit is a defacto way of making the Free White Cane Program a program for blind children and their parents? But if that is the case, why not just have an age limit? --- On Thu, 6/25/09, T. Joseph Carter wrote: From: T. Joseph Carter Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Free NFB cane To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:12 AM Jim, We generally recommend nose-high canes.  A few use canes taller than they are, but only a few.  *grin* I second your bafflement at the limitation in cane lengths.  It should go as high as 69" at least.  A lot of guys fall in the 65 and 67 range, and more than a few into the 69. I'd go straight for carbon fiber myself, which the NFB doesn't give away for free.  They're light and they're strong.  I might be concerned about a graphite/carbon cane in the frigid winter (can become more brittle), but the straight canes seem to be tough enough at least for Denver. Joseph On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:10:58AM -0700, Jim Reed wrote: > Hey all, > I'm wondering why the free NFB canes are so short? I mean, I'm only 6 foot 4, and an NFB cane isn't long enough for me. I could understand the NFB not having a long enough cane for me if I was like 7 foot tall, but I am not that tall, and I am certianly not that far out of the norm for the average height of American males,  > I find the 63 inch limit particularly odd since the NFB (or at least nost NFB members) all seem to recomend canes that are at least as tall, if not taller, than the person using it. This means (based on NFB recomendations) that a 63 inch cane should not be used by anyone taller than 5 foot 3. As far as I can tell, nearly all American men, and most American women and teenagers are going to be taller than 5 foot 3, so why won't the NFB offer a free cane that is large enough for most of society to benifit? I'm sure their is a legitimate and rational (probably economic) reason as to why the NFB has choosen to not offer canes longer than 63 inches, and I'd be curious to find out what that reason is. > > Thanks, > Jim > > "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, > And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim275_2%40yahoo.com From nijat1989 at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 20:46:12 2009 From: nijat1989 at gmail.com (Nijat Worley) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:46:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with the march for independence Message-ID: <68925B70CACD4CFA9E173AB1873D9EBB@Nijatash> Dear NABS members, As you all probably know by now, we will be having yet another of our annual March For Independence this summer at convention in Detroit. I am one of the people that is in charge of recruiting some of our members to be ambassadors to help with the march. Kevan Worley, the chairman of the Imagination Fund, has asked me to get some folks from the students division to help with the march. Now, there is a misconception among lot of folks that students are lazy and that they will never get up early in the morning to go marching. So, that is why we have to prove them wrong by having a strong presence at the March for independence. When the chairman asks where are the students? We need to be able to shout with one strong voice and let our presence known. As we are the present and future leaders of the National Federation of the Blind, we need to be out there and be heard. I also need about 12 volunteers to be ambassadors and help people out of the hotel. We will be marshaling and telling folks where to go so that we can make the process as easy as possible. You all know that moving 1000 people in an orderly fashion can be difficult and that we have to be at different points along the hotel to help make the process go smoothly. We will also have to make sure that we return to the hotel before everyone else so that we can help them get back to the general session. We will have to be down at our posts by 6:15 A.M. Monday the 6th. Please e-mail me if you want to be an ambassador at the March for Independence. I would appreciate all your help. Let us prove misconceptions wrong by having a strong presence at the March so that we can make ourselves heard. Feel free to e-mail me at nijat1989 at gmail.com Thank you very much, and see you all at the march. Yours Nijat Worley From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 25 21:14:53 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:14:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list References: Message-ID: <006c01c9f5d9$fbf9cbd0$0701a8c0@Serene> If you're interested in learning about law or just wanna have a great time, you've gotta go to the mock trial! During the mock trial, blind lawyers hold a pretend trial based on true discrimination cases. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lavar Phillips" To: Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:29 AM Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list >I just trying to get all the information I can about convention I would >like to meet a whole lot of new people what events should I go to so I can >have a good time > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From LPovinelli at aol.com Thu Jun 25 21:20:18 2009 From: LPovinelli at aol.com (by way of David Andrews ) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:20:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Exploration; Creative Route Finding - Friday, July 3, 2009 Message-ID: Employment Exploration; Creative Route Finding Employment Committee National Federation of the Blind Friday, July 3rd, 2009 10 a.m until 5 p.m. Marriott - Richard B Room - Level 5 Detroit, Michigan AGENDA 10:00-10:30 a.m. Registration 10:30-11:00 a.m. Opening Session Buna Dahal Employment Trainer and Motivational Speaker DynamicBuna, Inc. Centennial, Colorado 11:00-11:30 a.m. Mapping Career Possibilities within the Social Security Administration Michele Eccles Lead Specialist in the Area 3 Director's Office for the Detroit Area Social Security Administration Orion, Michigan 11:30-12:00 p.m. 50 Ways to Not Get a Job Bryan Bashin Management Consultant Id Pro Quo Job Services Sacramento, California 12:00-1:30 p.m. Lunch 1:30-2:00 p.m. Where is that Next Opportunity? Audience 2:00-2:30 p.m. Getting Your Foot in the Unknown Tracy Soforenko (Moderator) Senior Project Manager Corporation for National and Community Service Arlington, Virginia Darian Smith AmeriCorps. Core Member National Civilian Community Core Denver, Colorado Angela Howard Frederick Ph.D. Candidate in Sociology University of Texas Austin, Texas Sam Gleese Americans with Disabilities Act Coordinator for the City of Jackson City of Jackson Jackson, Mississippi 2:30-3:00 p.m. ADAAA ­New Vistas Daron Calhoun Program Analyst Detroit Field Office Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Detroit, Michigan 3:00-3:20 p.m. Expanding your curiosity Audience 3:20-3:40 p.m. Creative Route Finding Michelle Chacon Teacher of the Blind and Low Vision and Orientation and Mobility Specialist Adams School District 50 Westminster, Colorado 3:40-4:00 p.m. Equip Yourself for Competency Phil Raistrick President David Bode Regional Sales Manager En-Vision America, Inc. Normal, Illinois 4:00-4:20 p.m. Online Applications Way-marking on the Federal Landsccape John Halverson Senior Program Management Analyst Department of Health and Human Services Office of Civil Rights Arlington, Virginia 4:20-4:40 p.m. Authenticity the Art of Being Genuine Dr. J. W. Smith Professor of Speech Communication Ohio University School of Communication Studies Athens, Ohio 4:40-5:00 p.m. Closing Remarks From hfurney at bgsu.edu Thu Jun 25 21:34:26 2009 From: hfurney at bgsu.edu (Hannah G Furney) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:34:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with the march for independence In-Reply-To: <68925B70CACD4CFA9E173AB1873D9EBB@Nijatash> References: <68925B70CACD4CFA9E173AB1873D9EBB@Nijatash> Message-ID: <023FF489B0008B4D9E6729B9F01EB2243646405056@MAIL6.bgsu.edu> I would help but I am already have another job for the march that morning. Hannah Furney Cru NABS OABs NFB NFB- Ohio NFB of Greater Toledo- Board Member At Large ________________________________________ From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nijat Worley [nijat1989 at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:46 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Help with the march for independence Dear NABS members, As you all probably know by now, we will be having yet another of our annual March For Independence this summer at convention in Detroit. I am one of the people that is in charge of recruiting some of our members to be ambassadors to help with the march. Kevan Worley, the chairman of the Imagination Fund, has asked me to get some folks from the students division to help with the march. Now, there is a misconception among lot of folks that students are lazy and that they will never get up early in the morning to go marching. So, that is why we have to prove them wrong by having a strong presence at the March for independence. When the chairman asks where are the students? We need to be able to shout with one strong voice and let our presence known. As we are the present and future leaders of the National Federation of the Blind, we need to be out there and be heard. I also need about 12 volunteers to be ambassadors and help people out of the hotel. We will be marshaling and telling folks where to go so that we can make the process as easy as possible. You all know that moving 1000 people in an orderly fashion can be difficult and that we have to be at different points along the hotel to help make the process go smoothly. We will also have to make sure that we return to the hotel before everyone else so that we can help them get back to the general session. We will have to be down at our posts by 6:15 A.M. Monday the 6th. Please e-mail me if you want to be an ambassador at the March for Independence. I would appreciate all your help. Let us prove misconceptions wrong by having a strong presence at the March so that we can make ourselves heard. Feel free to e-mail me at nijat1989 at gmail.com Thank you very much, and see you all at the march. Yours Nijat Worley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hfurney%40bgsu.edu From lavar.phillips at hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 21:41:20 2009 From: lavar.phillips at hotmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:41:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list In-Reply-To: <006c01c9f5d9$fbf9cbd0$0701a8c0@Serene> References: <006c01c9f5d9$fbf9cbd0$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: When is it what time On Jun 25, 2009, at 5:14 PM, "Serena" wrote: > If you're interested in learning about law or just wanna have a > great time, you've gotta go to the mock trial! During the mock > trial, blind lawyers hold a pretend trial based on true > discrimination cases. > > Serena > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lavar Phillips" > > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:29 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list > > >> I just trying to get all the information I can about convention I >> would like to meet a whole lot of new people what events should I >> go to so I can have a good time >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavar.phillips%40hotmail.com > From serenacucco at verizon.net Thu Jun 25 23:12:16 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:12:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list References: <006c01c9f5d9$fbf9cbd0$0701a8c0@Serene> Message-ID: <008501c9f5ea$62016220$0701a8c0@Serene> I don't have the whole agenda memorized! lol If you go on the NFB website and look for the convention, you'll find a link to the agenda in MS Word format. Download it on your hard drive and/or into your Braillenote or other note taking device. Good luck. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lavar Phillips" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 5:41 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New to the list > When is it what time > > On Jun 25, 2009, at 5:14 PM, "Serena" wrote: > >> If you're interested in learning about law or just wanna have a great >> time, you've gotta go to the mock trial! During the mock trial, blind >> lawyers hold a pretend trial based on true discrimination cases. >> >> Serena >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lavar Phillips" >> > > >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:29 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list >> >> >>> I just trying to get all the information I can about convention I >>> would like to meet a whole lot of new people what events should I go >>> to so I can have a good time >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavar.phillips%40hotmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From nijat1989 at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 03:27:48 2009 From: nijat1989 at gmail.com (Nijat Worley) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:27:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention References: Message-ID: Greetings, I called T-Mobile and tried to get them to turn off the romeing service on my KNFB Reader mobile phone for the convention, but they said that they could not do it. What is the correct procedure to get this done? Yours Nijat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wilson,Joanne (by way of David Andrews )" To: Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:36 PM Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention > > ---------- > From: Berggren, John > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:17 PM > To: NCB Staff > > For those of you travelling to convention, you'll notice that just a > couple hundred yards across the Detroit River is Canada, our neighbor to > the north (or in this unusual case, our neighbor to the south). Though > you will need a passport to cross the border, your cell phone doesn't. > Depending where you are in the hotel, your cell phone (or data card) may > give up on a weak signal from your carrier and switch to the Rogers > Communications cell signal from Canada. This constitutes international > roaming and can be very expensive. Unless you have a contract that > includes it, you might consider contacting your provider to disable > international roaming, if only for the first couple of weeks of July. I > found AT&T to be very helpful in providing assistance with my request. To > make it a bit easier for those interested, here are contact numbers for > the various carriers: > > AT&T : 611 or 800-331-0500 > Sprint : *2, press Talk or 888-211-4727 > T-Mobile : 800-937-8997 > Verizon : *611 or 800-922-0204 > Virgin Mobile : 888-322-1122 > > Here's to no cell phone bill surprises, eh? If you supervise anyone > without e-mail, please advise any of those attending convention. > > Regards, > John > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nijat1989%40gmail.com From harryhogue at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 06:00:08 2009 From: harryhogue at yahoo.com (Harry Hogue) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Not Receiving Messages Message-ID: <38858.47238.qm@web33508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Rania wrote: > From: Rania > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 6:00 AM > Welcome back. Hoping everything goes > well. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 10:40 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone > > > > > > hello everyone, > > > > I jsut wanted to take a minute to say hello to > everyone, old friends and new alike.  It has been some > time since I have posted to this list; I unsubscribed for a > while when i got busy with other things.  I hope to get > active in it again and to keep everyone updated with what is > going on with me.  FYI, I will be in Boston August 1-29 > at the Boston Language Institute doing certification to > teach English as a Second Language, and then I will be > working on getting a job -- either domesticly or > abroad.  I would rpefer to go ahead and get a job > within the United States for a little while just to get my > feet under me.  Anyway, I will be in the Back Bay area, > so if anyone is in that area and wants to hang out, or has > recommendations for sites to visit on the weekend, > restaurants, pubs, etc. just let me know. > > > > Thanks, and look forward to talking with all of you > again. > > > > Harry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/harryhogue%40yahoo.com >Hello, I first want to thank everyone for your welcome backs and good wishes in Boston. Secondly, I would like to mention that I am using the web-enterface of Yahoo! Mail and am not receiving my messages in my inbox--they are all being routed to my spam folder, and I just now checked it and saw where they all were! If anyone has tips for correcting this, as I've never delbt with anything like this before, I would appreciate it. Thank you very much. I'm not familiar with the addressbook in Yahoo, so thanks for the help, if adding a certain address to the addressbook is indeed what I should do. harry b From David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us Fri Jun 26 08:06:32 2009 From: David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us (David B Andrews) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:06:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: WinZoom leading the competition! Message-ID: >>> 6/24/2009 5:36 PM >>> Get more with WinZoom! WinZoom gives you magnification that enlarges material on your computer screen. If you have been having problems reading your computer screen, WinZoom is IDEAL for you. [] Installation A simple to use USB thumb drive makes the WinZoom 100% portable. It is a plug and play no installation required which means you don't have to have administrator privileges. WinZoom will run on any public computer. Simply insert the USB drive and you are ready to go. Use the WinZoom safely anywhere; at a hotel, public library, friends home, or family computer. Remove the USB drive and NO software is left. WinZoom leaves no trace behind! Zoomtext software requires administrator privileges and a full installation process. [] Speech Speech output is included in the WinZoom standard product at no extra cost to you. [] Price WinZoom is offered at $299 with speech out. Compare to ZoomText at $595. ZoomText without speech is still higher in cost at $395. Why pay more for less features and a higher price? WinZoom is also available on a USB thumb drive for $399. ZoomText with speech on a USB thumb drive is $695! Stretch your dollar with WinZoom. More value, less cost. If you are a sight center or government agency where funding is a continual challenge keep this in mind. You can spend the same amount on 10 copies of ZoomText with speech or buy 20 copies of WinZoom. The value is there! [] Compatibility WinZoom is 100% 64 bit Vista compatible. Hands down, WinZoom beats the competition! For more information or to get your free trial, visit: [] Clarity 800-575-1456 x204 http://www.getwinzoom.com email: winzoom at getwinzoom.com *Source:www.aisquared.com May 1st, 2009 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ac31bbd.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1313 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ac31bcc.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5907 bytes Desc: not available URL: From youthslammi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 08:34:12 2009 From: youthslammi at yahoo.com (melinda latham) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:34:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need for Marshalls on Monday, July 6th and volunteers throughout convention Message-ID: Greetings from the GREAT State of Michigan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As everyone knows the March for independence is Monday, July 6th. I am writing you about an opportunity that exists to serve your Federation Family. If you think you have a loud voice and don't mind using it, I need you. I need people to Marshall inside the hotel the morning of the March. This would mean meeting me in the hotel lobby , 3rd floor near the Volt Bar at 5:45 AM. We need time to go over things and get you in place by 6:15. You may still participate in the March if you'd like, very much encouraged. Also, if you would like to volunteer at any other point during convention please let me know. I need people to Marshall during lunch and the night of the Banquet. I can use you for as long or as short of a time as you'd like. Thank you for your Help and we welcome you to the Great state of Michigan. MELINDA LATHAM Youth Outreach Coordinator, NFB of MI 517.803.3800 From youthslammi at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 08:40:19 2009 From: youthslammi at yahoo.com (melinda latham) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:40:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Michigan Youth Outreach Welcome Party Message-ID: ATTENTION ALL YOUTH The Youth of Michigan welcome you to our GREAT STATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come join us for FREE FOOD and socialize. Friday, July 3, 2009 Location; Michigan suite, 6805 Open to youth age 12-20 Please bring cards and any other games you might want to play. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact me, information below. Thank You and have a Great stay in Michigan. MELINDA LATHAM Youth Outreach Coordinator, NFB of MI 517.803.3800 From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Jun 26 11:51:21 2009 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:51:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention In-Reply-To: Message-ID: To my knowledge, roaming must be turned off within the phone and not by the company. From past experience, Sprint was able to give me instructions as to how to do that, though, so possibly the suggestion to call your provider was with that in mind. On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:27:48 -0600, Nijat Worley wrote: >Greetings, > I called T-Mobile and tried to get them to turn off the romeing service >on my KNFB Reader mobile phone for the convention, but they said that they >could not do it. What is the correct procedure to get this done? > Yours > Nijat >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Wilson,Joanne (by way of David Andrews )" > >To: >Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:36 PM >Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention >> >> ---------- >> From: Berggren, John >> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:17 PM >> To: NCB Staff >> >> For those of you travelling to convention, you'll notice that just a >> couple hundred yards across the Detroit River is Canada, our neighbor to >> the north (or in this unusual case, our neighbor to the south). Though >> you will need a passport to cross the border, your cell phone doesn't. >> Depending where you are in the hotel, your cell phone (or data card) may >> give up on a weak signal from your carrier and switch to the Rogers >> Communications cell signal from Canada. This constitutes international >> roaming and can be very expensive. Unless you have a contract that >> includes it, you might consider contacting your provider to disable >> international roaming, if only for the first couple of weeks of July. I >> found AT&T to be very helpful in providing assistance with my request. To >> make it a bit easier for those interested, here are contact numbers for >> the various carriers: >> >> AT&T : 611 or 800-331-0500 >> Sprint : *2, press Talk or 888-211-4727 >> T-Mobile : 800-937-8997 >> Verizon : *611 or 800-922-0204 >> Virgin Mobile : 888-322-1122 >> >> Here's to no cell phone bill surprises, eh? If you supervise anyone >> without e-mail, please advise any of those attending convention. >> >> Regards, >> John >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nijat1989%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From albertyoo1 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 26 12:32:25 2009 From: albertyoo1 at hotmail.com (Albert Yoo) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:32:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Will any convention events be podcast to the nabs link website or to the nfb website to listen in while convention is going on? Message-ID: nabs-l at nfbnet.org nabs-l at nfbnet.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From aguimaraes at nbp.org Fri Jun 26 13:57:02 2009 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:57:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phonesat Convention References: Message-ID: With A t 'n T, you must call them, 611, and then be transferred to their international call service department. they turned mine off. At least this is how it works with A T 'n T. Other providers might work differently. Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 7:51 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phonesat Convention > To my knowledge, roaming must be turned off within the phone and not by > the company. From past experience, Sprint > was able to give me instructions as to how to do that, though, so possibly > the suggestion to call your provider was with > that in mind. > > On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:27:48 -0600, Nijat Worley wrote: > >>Greetings, >> I called T-Mobile and tried to get them to turn off the romeing service >>on my KNFB Reader mobile phone for the convention, but they said that they >>could not do it. What is the correct procedure to get this done? >> Yours >> Nijat > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Wilson,Joanne (by way of David Andrews )" >> >>To: >>Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:36 PM >>Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention > > >>> >>> ---------- >>> From: Berggren, John >>> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 2:17 PM >>> To: NCB Staff >>> >>> For those of you travelling to convention, you'll notice that just a >>> couple hundred yards across the Detroit River is Canada, our neighbor to >>> the north (or in this unusual case, our neighbor to the south). Though >>> you will need a passport to cross the border, your cell phone doesn't. >>> Depending where you are in the hotel, your cell phone (or data card) may >>> give up on a weak signal from your carrier and switch to the Rogers >>> Communications cell signal from Canada. This constitutes international >>> roaming and can be very expensive. Unless you have a contract that >>> includes it, you might consider contacting your provider to disable >>> international roaming, if only for the first couple of weeks of July. I >>> found AT&T to be very helpful in providing assistance with my request. >>> To >>> make it a bit easier for those interested, here are contact numbers for >>> the various carriers: >>> >>> AT&T : 611 or 800-331-0500 >>> Sprint : *2, press Talk or 888-211-4727 >>> T-Mobile : 800-937-8997 >>> Verizon : *611 or 800-922-0204 >>> Virgin Mobile : 888-322-1122 >>> >>> Here's to no cell phone bill surprises, eh? If you supervise anyone >>> without e-mail, please advise any of those attending convention. >>> >>> Regards, >>> John >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nijat1989%40gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org > From liz.bottner at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 14:22:59 2009 From: liz.bottner at gmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:22:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> I was told by AT&T that as long as I'm not physically in Canada, I shouldn't be charged. I wasn't told anything about needing to turn off roaming. Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com  Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot From aguimaraes at nbp.org Fri Jun 26 15:28:54 2009 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:28:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention References: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <41ABFD9A79AD4A75BC58857E015AAE8F@nbp2.local> Hello Liz, Interesting that a t and t told you this information. I hope they are correct, and that satellites can distinguish and charge correctly even though you may literally be less than a mile away from foreign lands. It sounds to me that one may be able to pick up a satellite signal, and still incur roaming charges. A T and t may re right about what they told you, but I would still cancel any chances of a hefty charge for using the cell phone. They tell me this would cost $.79 without an international plan, and still $.59 with a plan. Since it cost you nothing to block roaming charges on your plan, I still think it is an advantage. The alternative is that the one representative was mistaken in talking with you, and you attend convention with a big expensive surprise in the end. Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liz Bottner" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention I was told by AT&T that as long as I'm not physically in Canada, I shouldn't be charged. I wasn't told anything about needing to turn off roaming. Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org From aguimaraes at nbp.org Fri Jun 26 16:13:49 2009 From: aguimaraes at nbp.org (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:13:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list References: Message-ID: Here is a link to a page on the First Timer's Guide. No details are given about specific events, but it's a good read and a place to start. Other useful events include the Rookie Round up, Karaoke night, the NAB S business meeting, employment seminar, exhibit hall, etc. Consult the agenda available online for time and location. Now here is the first timer's document. http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/firsttime.htm Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lavar Phillips" To: Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:29 AM Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list >I just trying to get all the information I can about convention I would >like to meet a whole lot of new people what events should I go to so I can >have a good time > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org > From jim275_2 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 26 16:39:22 2009 From: jim275_2 at yahoo.com (Jim Reed) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] unsubscrining from NABS list Message-ID: <532081.23905.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hey all, I will be out of town for several weeks, so I am unsubscribing from NABS list until I get back. Jim "From compromise and things half done, Keep me with stern and stubborn pride, And when at last the fight is won, ... Keep me still unsatisfied." --Louis Untermeyer From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Fri Jun 26 17:46:15 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:46:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone In-Reply-To: <004d01c9f4ba$ffe0b260$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> References: <338209.57450.qm@web33502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <004d01c9f4ba$ffe0b260$2801a8c0@DHQ5QJF1> Message-ID: <20090626134615.2wyvgpnx8kk0w44g@webmail.utoronto.ca> Good to see you on here again, Harry. Good luck with that course of yours. :) Quoting Rania : > Welcome back. Hoping everything goes well. > Rania, > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Hogue" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 10:40 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Hello Everyone > > >> >> hello everyone, >> >> I jsut wanted to take a minute to say hello to everyone, old >> friends and new alike. It has been some time since I have posted >> to this list; I unsubscribed for a while when i got busy with other >> things. I hope to get active in it again and to keep everyone >> updated with what is going on with me. FYI, I will be in Boston >> August 1-29 at the Boston Language Institute doing certification to >> teach English as a Second Language, and then I will be working on >> getting a job -- either domesticly or abroad. I would rpefer to go >> ahead and get a job within the United States for a little while >> just to get my feet under me. Anyway, I will be in the Back Bay >> area, so if anyone is in that area and wants to hang out, or has >> recommendations for sites to visit on the weekend, restaurants, >> pubs, etc. just let me know. >> >> Thanks, and look forward to talking with all of you again. >> >> Harry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/raniaismail04%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 18:13:06 2009 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 04:13:06 +1000 Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lavar and all, Attached is a copy of the agenda in MS-Word format, which can be read on your computer or downloaded to a Braille Note or other similar device. The Mock Trial, one of my personal favorite events as well, will be held on Saturday, July 4 from 4:30-6:00 p.m. Immediately thereafter is the National Association of Blind Students (NABS) annual meeting. This year we will be celebrating the forty-second anniversary of our division's existence with speeches from several past presidents of our organization as well as other presentations of interest to students. The agenda for our NABS meeting will be posted shortly. Also check out the agenda for other seminars, meetings, and exhibits you may find of interest. Arielle Silverman First Vice-President, NABS On 6/27/09, Antonio Guimaraes wrote: > Here is a link to a page on the First Timer's Guide. > > No details are given about specific events, but it's a good read and a place > to start. > > Other useful events include the Rookie Round up, Karaoke night, the NAB S > business meeting, employment seminar, exhibit hall, etc. > > Consult the agenda available online for time and location. > > Now here is the first timer's document. > http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/firsttime.htm > Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lavar Phillips" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:29 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list > > >>I just trying to get all the information I can about convention I would >>like to meet a whole lot of new people what events should I go to so I can >> >>have a good time >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Convention 2009.doc Type: application/msword Size: 2599424 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brsmith2424 at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 18:17:49 2009 From: brsmith2424 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:17:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention In-Reply-To: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> References: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I was told the same thing by at&t. When I explained my concerns, they brushed them off and said that the signal would not be impacted and that as long as I do not cross into Canada I had nothing to worry about. I'm considering leaving my computer at home and only carrying my cell with me, so I hope that I will have strong at&t coverage. I expect I will. Brice On 6/26/09, Liz Bottner wrote: > I was told by AT&T that as long as I'm not physically in Canada, I shouldn't > be charged. I wasn't told anything about needing to turn off roaming. > > Liz > > email: > liz.bottner at gmail.com > Visit my livejournal: > http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > Follow me on Twitter: > http://twitter.com/lizbot > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com > From liz.bottner at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 18:30:07 2009 From: liz.bottner at gmail.com (Liz Bottner) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:30:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention In-Reply-To: References: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4a4513ae.47c1f10a.17e9.330f@mx.google.com> Brice, I was also told that if charges did occur, all I would need do is call and explain the situation and they would take them off for me. I would expect you could do the same, but you may want to call and ask to have your account noted as such in case they give you trouble should any charges show up. Liz email: liz.bottner at gmail.com Visit my livejournal: http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com  Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/lizbot From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca Sat Jun 27 00:25:59 2009 From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:25:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090626202559.bwz9tceswhwcw4gw@webmail.utoronto.ca> Hi Ashley, Sometimes databases have both pdf and html or sometimes txt files of articles, but pdf is by far the most common. Luckily, adobe and JAWS have both improved enough that usually the two work well together and pdf's aren't the horror they once were. If you have a recent version of JAWS and a recent version of acrobat then you should be okay. There is an option in adobe acrobat to set up accessibility options. I can't remember how to access it but I'm pretty sure it's there somewhere. As far as the accessibility of databases, I've used scholar's portal and some of the publishers's websites (Wiley for example) but I don't know about your specific requests. I hope it goes well, Sarah Quoting Ashley Bramlett : > Hi all, > > This is sort of a school question but also one for life. We have to > research on the job so it won't go away. > Since there's new people on the list, maybe some new ideas will come about. > > I graduated with a BA in liberal studies, studying social science > and communication. I'm getting an internship and research has come > up. I will help them research crime prevention and bullying and > maybe other things; I'm working for the National crime prevention > Council. > > > Although I survived research and writing papers, it was something I > disliked; it was time consuming and frustrating. My school had > online databases but I still used hard copy sources in addition to > online. Some info just wasn't electronic. Due to problems like the > inability to skim with jaws for key things, image PDFs and paper > sources, I used readers mainly. I directed them to skim for certain > key points. We read abstracts in journals or table of contents if > a book to see if it was relevant. Then we picked out the actual > sections and read them. > I researched on my own through the internet as well. > I wonder what I can do if anything to do research better. I need to > be more independent with it since I do not have a reader on the > job. That's too bad because they can skim well where as with jaws > you can only go by paragraph to get a sense of the document. > My questions are: > 1. Which databases did you find accessible? Is PSYCH Info accessible? > 2. How do you use those PDF files? What can you do in Openbook to > access them? > Many full text articles were PDF rendering them inaccessible without > using a scanner. > 3. In databases with PDFs, do you find an option for a HTML link > wich is a text link? When searching google.com they have PDF files > as HTML as well. > 4. What do you do to determine if an article is relevant? So far I > thought of reading the abstract and/or intro. Sometimes I read > entire articles only to find them not as useful as I thought they > would be based on the intro. > 5. Is googlescholar.com accessible? > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca > From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 03:21:51 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:21:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Convention room available Message-ID: <20090627032151.GC49970@yumi.bluecherry.net> Hi all, Carla McQuillan has an extra room available at the Courtyard Marriott for national convention. Call 541-915-0896 if you're interested. Joseph From terri.rupp at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 03:58:41 2009 From: terri.rupp at gmail.com (Terri Rupp) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 20:58:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS 2009 Convention Agenda Message-ID: *Celebrating 42 Year's of NABS* National Association of Blind Students Annual Seminar Detroit Marriott at the Renaissance Center 400 Renaissance Center Detroit, Michigan 48243 Saturday July 4, 2009 6:00PM to 10:00PM Ambassador Two Ballroom, Level 3 6:00PM - 7:00PM__Registration $5.00. To speed up registration please bring your information (name, school, phone, and email) in Braille on an index card. 6:00PM - 7:00PM__Meet and Greet Hour Representatives from Bookshare.org, ETS, RFBD, Department of Education, and many more will be there to talk with you and answer questions. 7:00PM - 7:10PM__Welcome from the President. Words from National Association of Blind Students President Terri Rupp 7:10PM - 8:00PM__"A Blast from the past" NABS Presidents: James Gashel, 1st NABS President Dr. Marc Maurer, National Federation of the Blind President Scott LeBarr, NFB of Colorado President Carlos Servan, Deputy Director of Nebraska Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired Shawn Mayo, Director of Blind Inc. Angela Wolf, NFB of Texas 1st Vice President Ryan Strunk, Braille Initiative Team Member Tai Blas, Transition Specialists, Iowa Department for the Blind 8:00PM - 8:03PM__You and the Motor City March Nijot Worley, Colorado Association of Blind Students Vice President 8:03PM - 8:10PM__A blind students experience with Ameri-Corp, Darian Smith 8:10PM - 8:30PM__Fight for Your rights to e-books Mehgan Sidhu, Brown, Goldstein & Levy LLP, 8:20PM –8:30PM__Updates from Bookshare.org Allison Hilliker 8:30PM - 8:40PM__News from RFBD Annemarie Cook and John Kelly 8:40PM - 8:45PM__Tactile sketchpad from University of Vermont Al Maneki 8:45PM - 9:15PM__Announcing the Scholarship Class of 2009 Anil Lewis, Scholarship Committee Chair 9:15PM - 10:00PM__NABS Board elections 10:00PM__ Adjourn -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS 2009 agenda.doc Type: application/msword Size: 22528 bytes Desc: not available URL: From terri.rupp at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 04:06:36 2009 From: terri.rupp at gmail.com (Terri Rupp) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:06:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Know Your Rights about E-Textbooks Message-ID: *KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!* *Accessible E-Books in Higher Education* Dear NABS Member, As many of you know, colleges and universities are rapidly transitioning from print to electronic textbooks and course materials. For most of us, who rely on our campus’s Disabled Students Services offices to obtain or create accessible books required for our classes, electronic books (“e-books”) and e-book readers should offer us the opportunity to have, for the first time, the same access to course materials as our sighted classmates. Instead, many e-book and e-reader services contain gratuitous accessibility barriers that exclude blind students from having the same access and enjoying the benefits of e-books as our sighted classmates. This document is intended to educate you about your rights, as a blind student, to have equal access to e-books and e-book readers. *Overview* *Many colleges and universities are starting to use e-books and e-textbooks to be read on e-readers and/or computer software. * ** *Your college or university must ensure that any e-textbooks or e-readers it offers are accessible. * ** *Offering accessible textbooks through the Disabled Services Office does NOT constitute equal access. * *Background* *The Advantages of E-Textbooks and E-Readers* Colleges and universities are increasingly adopting e-textbooks and e-book readers because of the many advantages they offer students. E-textbooks cost significantly less than print books, which is a great advantage for all students. Moreover, e-textbooks and the platforms on which they are read typically offer the ability to highlight, annotate, bookmark, search, instant dictionary look-up, navigational structure so that you can easily find the chapter or page you want to read, and other features that improve reading and studying. Also, e-books are available instantly and are portable. Because of these advantages, online e-textbook services, such as CourseSmart and Vital Source are flourishing. These retailers offer e-textbooks that you can purchase online and instantly download to a computer or laptop, or access online for a set period of time. Both services are currently inaccessible because the computer interface was not designed for compatibility with screen access software and, some of the book content is not offered in an accessible format. Other e-book services, like the Kindle, are also becoming popular. Recently, Amazon released a new e-book reader, the Kindle DX, which features a large screen that makes it particularly amenable to textbook use. Six colleges and universities are participating in a pilot program with Amazon that will start in the Fall of 2009 to test the Kindle in the classroom. The Kindle DX has text-to-speech and, to our knowledge, the e-textbooks are capable of being read aloud (unlike some of the trade books, where publishers have turned off the text-to-speech function). However, the controls on the Kindle DX are inaccessible to the blind. Specifically, the menus and settings do not have text-to-speech, so that there is currently no non-visual means to locate the book you want to read, change the settings, or check the battery status, etc. As a result, most of us cannot independently use the Kindle DX. As the e-textbook market takes off, many colleges and universities are taking note and offering e-textbooks and e-readers to their students, either by providing them directly to students, offering discounts, or requiring their use. Several state legislatures have introduced legislation that encourages their state universities and colleges to consider e-textbooks as a cost-saving measure. Meanwhile, some universities and university systems, such as Northwest Missouri State University and the University System of Ohio have entered into contracts with e-textbook vendors to offer their services to students. Finally, as mentioned, six universities are piloting the Kindle DX this fall, including Arizona State University, Princeton University, Case Western Reserve University, Pace University, Reed College, and the University of Virginia’s Darden School of Business. This is only the beginning of the tidal wave and we expect e-textbooks and e-book readers will become increasingly become commonplace on campuses. *Current Process for Obtaining Books as a Blind Student* While there are benefits to e-textbooks for everyone, they are particularly attractive to blind students. While each school has a different process for providing accessible books and course materials to students, most follow a procedure that requires blind students to purchase the print book months before their courses start and submit a request for an accessible book to the campus’s Disabled Students Services (DSS) office. Typically, the DSS office then attempts to locate an electronic file from the publisher or an accessible copy through services like RFB&D, Bookshare, or the National Library Service. Electronic files obtained through the publisher are often received at great delay and in PDF or other formats that are inaccessible or lack navigational structure. Moreover, books obtained through other services may not be available in your preferred reading format (for example, sometimes only audio is available which can be more difficult to study from than a text file). When the DSS office cannot locate an electronic or accessible file elsewhere, it must then create an in-house accessible file by scanning and OCR’ing the print book page by page. While not the fault of the DSS offices, which often work very hard to locate and provide accessible books, the process is time consuming and usually results in a text file that does not have any navigation and may have OCR or other errors. As a result, we often do not receive our books until well into the semester if at all. With e-textbooks and e-textbook readers, which unlike print books are inherently accessible provided the appropriate technology is in place, it should not be necessary to use a separate system to obtain access to books and course materials, particularly for those whose prefer to read using text-to-speech. Rather, provided that the interface and underlying content are accessible, a blind student should have the same experience as the sighted student: instant and independent access, for the same price, and with the same features, such as chapter headings, note taking features, dictionary look-up, and so forth. The problem is that vendors (such as CourseSmart and Amazon) are not building accessibility into their services and universities and colleges are not demanding that vendors do so. Until they do, blind students will be excluded from this technology, which is a significant piece that promises to level an unequal playing field. The remainder of this document will explain your rights to accessible e-book services and steps you can take to protect those rights. *Your Rights* *1. **Your college or university must ensure that any e-textbooks or e-readers it offers are accessible.* The obligation for accessibility falls on your school, in addition to any obligation on the company that makes the e-books or e-reader. Colleges and universities are required by federal law to provide students with equal access to their programs and services under, variously, Titles II and III of the Americans with Disabilities Act, and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act. In addition, your university may be subject to state civil rights laws or to state laws requiring that information technology be accessible. By providing e-textbooks or e-book readers to students, whether by offering Kindles or Kindle books to students, offering discounts if purchasing books through CourseSmart or other vendors, or otherwise making e-textbooks or e-reader technology available to students on campus, a university is engaging in a program or activity. Accordingly, the university or college must make that program equally accessible to everyone, including blind students, by ensuring that the technology it is offering is accessible. *2. **Offering accessible textbooks through the Disabled Services Office does NOT constitute equal access.* If your university is offering or will be offering e-textbooks to students, providing accessible books through the Disabled Students Services office does not constitute equal access under the law. As noted above, e-books offer advantages that include instant access, navigational structure, the ability to bookmark, note taking features, and reduced costs. Requiring blind students to obtain books through a separate system (when not technologically necessary) that results in a reading experience that is inferior to that offered by the e-book is not equal access and constitutes discrimination under the law. The university must offer you an e-book service that is accessible, or not contract with the vendor to offer the service at all. In short, if your university is offering or considering offering e-textbook or e-book reader services to students, it is legally obligated to ensure that the e-textbooks and e-readers it offers will be accessible to blind students. Requiring a blind student to obtain access through alternative and inferior means is not equal access where, as here, the only barrier is a simple, technological one. *3. **Steps you should take if your college or university is considering e-textbooks or e-book readers* Contact the president of your state’s NABS affiliate, if you have one, or Terri Rupp, the current NABS president, at (707) 567-3019 or by e-mail to HYPERLINK "mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com" nabs.president at gmail.com. They can provide you with guidance and additional information. If there are other blind students on campus, organize a meeting and develop an advocacy plan. Think about who on campus you will approach and how you will present the issue. Make an appointment with your university’s Information Office. Explain that you are a blind student who wants to ensure that you will be able to participate in the e-textbook program your school is considering, but will be excluded if the technology adopted is inaccessible. Remind the Information Officer that the university is obligated under federal law to ensure that the e-book technology it offers students is accessible. Be prepared to explain how you currently obtain accessible books and why that process is not equivalent to the benefits e-books offer. Meet with your Disabled Students Services Office, professors, and university personnel. When you meet with personnel on campus, remember to be calm and professional, explain your points clearly, and stick with your demand: that you are entitled to accessible e-textbooks and e-readers. If your request that the e-textbook or e-reader program be accessible is turned down, contact Anne Taylor at the National Federation of the Blind at 410-659-9314 or by e-mail to HYPERLINK "mailto:ataylor at nfb.org" ataylor at nfb.org. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: NABS Know Your Rights about E-Textbooks.doc Type: application/msword Size: 45568 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jbahm at pcdesk.net Sat Jun 27 04:53:23 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:53:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A45A5C3.10204@pcdesk.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Nijat, If your carrier can't help you, then you have a couple possibilities. 1. You might be able to set your phone not to rome. This varies by phone, and even by carrier. Mostly by carrier in my experience, actually. But it's worth looking at. 2. Depending on how the roming works in this specific situation, you might be uneffected. Sometimes, in order to rome you have to speak with someone on the target carrier's network and provide a credit card, etc. instead of it automatically happening and being billed to your phone later. I can't say if this is the case for you, but it might be. 3. Your phone probably displays your roming status. This isn't necessarily accurate, but it's a pretty strong indicator of roming if your phone's indicator shows roming. It's just that sometimes you could be roming and your indicator wouldn't show it. If you don't trust the indicator, see the final suggestion below. finally... 4. You can try dialing 611 before making a call. This is the number most carriers use for contacting customer service from your cell phone, and it doesn't generally result in any charges even when roming. Sprint PCS customers, dial *611 instead. This is how you reach your "current carrier" customer service, be it Sprint PCS or some roming provider. Everyone else should use 611. Nijat, specifically, use 611 since you're with T-Mobile. This is probably more reliable than your phone's indicator, but be aware there are cases when it could fail. For example, let's say you dial 611 and get t-mobile, your carrier. Then you hang up and start to dial the number you want to call. In the time you do that, your phone switches to roming. It is unlikely, but it is a possibility. Of these options, I recommend option 1 if you can do it, with options 3 and 4 together as a backup plan if you can't use option 1. Check the indicator, and if you aren't sure do 611 or *611 depending on if you use Sprint PCS or not. Then check the indicator again just before dialing your final destination. Hope this helps you all out. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKRaXDAAoJEMh8jNraUiwqIZ8H/01ciHOAAKHSMdli/T6rZUOM NY3qpdmzGQVlypH1jvYaAzxFhDoSObRWtyS9AXfamNVGgELkxA2G2oaJHvH2nJ/N BJFEUQVTf+DJx80Nrtl9kXM/v2HH76CgFBpJiZBocxYHlbPr/2TMZYeEIXCcpjYg wlvoDv0RkyZqiTeIT2OPcmYZR4Na8QXCxHemUfRzFNzJJt5hUkCd8GAUGGs1Dwya IorHDV/SoQsPeLE8AsX3zpB2oAcJB5p802FEbCOOL8wHk+2tgKUpP+hNOYNS1xcD FL4fhhnoVjNd1v8xiwkwHDAC93a5uIZy01jQsWxB+cOWmrTFUN5lY498SuADmfQ= =sD8J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jbahm at pcdesk.net Sat Jun 27 08:00:31 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 02:00:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones at Convention In-Reply-To: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> References: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4A45D19F.2060805@pcdesk.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Liz and others interested in this topic, As for a customer service rep making a statement that you have to physically be in Canada for there to be any chance of picking up a roming provider instead of your own provider, I have to say, bullshit. If you are interested in the technical details of why this can happen, read on. If not, then simply do the following to help ensure you don't accidentally rome. 1. If your carrier is Sprint PCS or one of the others whose phones let you set the phone for no roming (Sprint PCS is the only one I know that does it), then use this feature to deactivate roming. 2. Ask your carrier to deactivate international roming. Insist on this if you must, don't accept an explanation that it "shouldn't matter". If they can't, then explain the situation and ask them if they can issue you a credit should this happen. Make sure they note your account. If they have to issue a $400 credit, they'll be reluctant to do it me thinks. LOL 3. See my previous message on methods of avoiding accidental roming. Suggestion 1 in that message is preferred, with 3 and 4 as a backup option. Ok, now for the details of how this problem can occur. Every carrier has a list of prefered networks for roming purposes. This list is contained in your phone in something called the prefered roming list, at least in Verizon Speak. Others may call it something different. Anyway, this is a list of networks that your carrier has agreements with to provide roming service. If the carrier's network is unavailable, then your phone will attempt to locate one of these. Your phone can also use networks that aren't on the list in some cases, but we won't discuss that since doing so generally requires you take special steps like billing the call to a credit card. We'll only deal with prefered roming providers here. The problem that can occur if you are in close proximity to both your carrier's network and one of these roming providers is that your phone might fail to pick up your carrier's network and then succeed at picking up the roming provider's. For example, let's say you hit a dead spot in the hotel where your network drops out for some reason. Your phone will search for another, and it'll locate a roming providers if there is one available. Now, even though you're technically in the coverage area, you're roming because you're using a roming provider's network. And in this case, it's an international one to boot. Your phone will switch back to your provider's network when it can detect it in most cases, since in general it's set to prefer your provider's network over all other networks. But in the mean time, you're roming. Being physically in Canada doesn't make any difference for this. It's all a matter of how the radio waves travel. Radio waves don't know anything about national borders. The representitive is correct in saying it "shouldn't" happen. But "shouldn't" and "won't" aren't the same thing by any means. Finally, I want to point out that there is language in the terms of service for most mobile carriers that specifically addresses this issue. What it says varies a bit, but the basic points are this. 1. Your phone's indicator should show when you are roming. 2. It is possible to rome even if you are in the coverage area for your provider if your phone connects to a roming provider's network. One of them I read once specifically pointed out that this can happen if you're right on the edge of the coverage area for your provider's network as an example, but said that wasn't the only time it could happen. 3. Billing is based on what network you're actually connected to and using, not based on your phone's roming indicator or whether or not you're in the coverage area when you make or receive a call. 4. You're responsible for the bill, regardless of whether the phone showed you were roming and regardless of whether you were within the coverage area. Here in the US it's not as big of a problem as it could be because many carriers have agreements with one another to where a customer of one can use the network of another with no extra charges. However, in the case of a provider in another nation, that's not the case. *gasps* That was a long message. If any of you have any questions about this or need help dealing with it, feel free to contact me here or by private email. I'm also on MSN IM using this email address, on AIM using the name jcbahm99, and on Yahoo using the name jbahm99. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKRdGfAAoJEMh8jNraUiwqmLsH/2dVBkrmIN4bZWJWtJ5UJO38 QL3YM7O+zII4CQjLB2RJSpnOTgL4H3GiXdXJDqXuTFp5z+nVtTiVhSY++RVdLxHq Y96yMLtj3SmJ50R8wCfWsfyuucuO5jfhRKA+UYxE4g0dVZTO0pL/R9DT4QupPNHy 2CIk9545FFMycxlO2JnrxGJ9JKySdBIrHzqj29RKOHwpaHOlfNOguFuXEcx/eXPY vHBie55pdBBeILh99srxbMbjeVRNBR3PLGWuQQBkJMcUIRH3Gk1ZhVh6inS5izIj rsPYf7HtlKKcgbvEEXApo2JhLf8BBFuqrwFHwv1FtljneLPq7MCu6vk3SW1xvjc= =7KGd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 12:37:43 2009 From: queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com (Marsha) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 08:37:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] does anyone In-Reply-To: <532081.23905.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <532081.23905.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1966901B408C4EBDBF05237715B3127D@Cptr233> Does anyone have a N75 battery, that they no longer need. I am absolutely desperate for one. If anyone who does not need the battery anymore, who could email me privately it would be wonderful. Thank you, Marsha Lindsey Queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4193 (20090626) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From empower at smart.net Sat Jun 27 16:21:59 2009 From: empower at smart.net (Jamal Mazrui) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:21:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] McTwit 2.0 released Message-ID: http://EmpowermentZone.com/mtsetup.exe McTwit is a powerful, accessible client on Windows for the popular networking site twitter.com. As reported widely, Twitter has been key to the sharing of breaking news by citizens, themselves (e.g., communication by Iranians about human rights). McTwit offers nearly comprehensive access to Twitter capabilities, which are provided, not through a generic web browser interface, but through a dedicated Windows dialog that is completely accessible with screen reader programs used by blind people today. We can thereby participate fully in a popular communications medium, and benefit equally from a leading networking technology! Since the last major announcement about McTwit, it has gained many improvements from collaborative efforts. As the author, I am glad to work with anyone interested in developing an extension that implements additional features. Two leading script developers for the most popular screen readers have developed extensions that are now distributed with McTwit, as well as available separately. Jeff Bishop has developed scripts for Window-Eyes users, available at https://www.gwmicro.com/Script_Central/Scripts/Script_Details/?scriptid=1244 Brian Hartgen has developed scripts for JAWS users, available at http://hartgen.org Recently, the blind community has also produced several audio presentations about new media, Twitter, and McTwit. A piece by Erin Edgar introduces Twitter from a blindness perspective at http://BlindCoolTech.com He also appeared on ACB Radio at http://www2.acbradio.org/mainmenu/shows.php Michael Lauf podcasted on accessible Twitter tools at http://serotalk.com/podcasts/TechChat016.mp3 Jonathan Mosen organized a panel on Twitter tools from a JAWS perspective at http://www.freedomscientific.com/FSCast/episodes/fscast030-may2009.asp Rich Cavallaro did an Accessible World training on Twitter at http://accessibleworld.org/category/site-categories/tek-talk-archives Mika Pyyhkala made a presentation on new media to blind computer users at http://www.vibug.org/audio/vbg0609-c.mp3 Feature enhancements in McTwit 2.0 include the following. Managed tweets that you bookmark as favorites. Review a chain of reply tweets. Temporarily save and then restore a list of items. Determine whether someone is following another person on Twitter. Forward a tweet in an email message. Select priority tweets based on criteria you specify. Exclude junk tweets based on other criteria. Update your Twitter profile. Users report that McTwit is working with JAWS, System Access, and Window-Eyes on both 32 and 64 bit versions of Windows -- including XP, Vista and Windows 7. Reports also confirm that McTwit runs on a portable media device. McTwit and its script extensions may be conveniently updated from the software, itself. The free, friendly, and portable nature of McTwit can play a useful role at the upcoming conventions of the American Council of the Blind and National Federation of the Blind. Let me suggest the "hash tags" #ACBCon and #NFBCon to help connect conversations about these events! Jamal Twitter screen name: JamalMazrui From Andrew.Baracco at va.gov Sat Jun 27 16:32:51 2009 From: Andrew.Baracco at va.gov (Baracco, Andrew W) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:32:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Bay Area Digital Press Release Message-ID: Bay Area Digital, LLC From the Office of the President 870 Market Street, Suite 653, San Francisco, CA 94102 (415) 217-6667 Fax (415) 962-2520 chris at bayareadigital.us ********************************************************** June 23, 2009 Bay Area Digital Partners with Royal National Institute of Blind People For Immediate Release For additional information contact Christopher Gray. Bay Area Digital is very pleased to announce its partnership as a registered agent, beginning immediately, with the Royal National Institute of Blind People. For the first time, United States residents can access RNIB's product offerings from a U.S.-based company. "RNIB's products have been world-renown for over a century," said Christopher Gray, President of Bay Area Digital. "We thought it was high time they were available easily and affordably to U.S residents without all of the difficulties and issues involved in overseas commerce." To initiate the relationship, Bay Area Digital is importing a carefully selected subset of RNIB products to introduce and demonstrate. The product line will be enhanced in the coming months based on customer feedback and interest. In addition, Bay Area Digital will make available any product requested and ordered by a U.S. resident whether or not it is a part of our initial general catalog. To receive a free product catalog from Bay Area Digital, please visit http://rnibcatalog.blinkweb.com. From this site, people can also sign up to receive future product demonstrations as they become available online. Bay Area Digital LLC is an adaptive technology company working in the fields of health care and superior quality technology for the blind and visually impaired. We invite you to visit us on the web at http://www.bayareadigital.us. Also, company president Chris Gray invites you to visit his personal blog at http://ChristopherGray.squarespace.com. The Royal National Institute of Blind People is the UK's leading charity offering information, support and advice to over two million people with sight loss. In addition to offering braille books, Talking Books, and a whole host of superior products that assist people with daily living, RNIB continuously assists the blind and visually impaired with imaginative and practical solutions to everyday challenges. Projects such as "Talk and Support" and "Parents' Place" make a difference to people's lives as well. To learn more about the Royal National Institute of Blind People, visit their website at http://rnib.co.uk. NOTE: Some products carried in the RNIB master catalog are actually manufactured and owned by U.S. manufacturers and imported from the U.S. by RNIB solely for UK distribution. These products will not be available through Bay Area Digital. No such product is listed in our current catalog. Should you request a product through us directly from the RNIB catalog that falls within this category, we will immediately advise you of this and make every attempt to identify a U.S. source through which you can procure the item. ---------------------------------------- Christopher Gray, President Bay Area Digital Promoting good health with innovative technology and superior health products 870 Market Street, #653 San Francisco, CA 94102 Phone: (415) 217-6667 fax: (415) 962-2520 Email: chris at bayareadigital.us Visit my blog at http://ChristopherGray.squarespace.com Visit me on Facebook by linking to http://www.facebook.com/cpgray From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 16:55:19 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 09:55:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Cane grip and hand, wrist, forearm pain In-Reply-To: <4A41A53A.9070408@gmail.com> References: <397203.37382.qm@web65713.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4A41A53A.9070408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090627165519.GE51791@yumi.bluecherry.net> Robert, No it won't keep it from collapsing, but it will help. *grin* Joseph On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:02:02AM -0400, Robert Spangler wrote: > If you are very light with the cane and use the palm-up method it should > not stick in cracks. Also, have it at belly-button level and out about > an arm's length. Carbon fiber tends to be the lightest but not as bendy > and will break easier. The fiberglass canes are very bendy but are > slightly heavier. With the telescoping canes, you need to pull them all > the way out but twist each piece tightly after pulling it out; this will > keep it from collapsing on itself when traveling. From lindsayupschulte at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 18:21:58 2009 From: lindsayupschulte at gmail.com (Lindsay Upschulte) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:21:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question Message-ID: i will be a junior in high school this year, but i had a question about college. how much braille is available in college? does it just depend what university you go to? one university i had in mind is the university of maryland, college park. i've heard many thins, so in your expierence, how mucdh braille is available? i think it would be almost impossible to do math verbally. with everything else icould get used to doing it verbally but i would prefer braille. thanks! -Lindsay From KBowman at nfb.org Sat Jun 27 17:39:21 2009 From: KBowman at nfb.org (Bowman, Kristi) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:39:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] 2009 March Information Packet (Large Print).doc Message-ID: The 2009 Motor City March for Independence: NFB in the D Before the March * An information session for Marchers will be held on Saturday, July 4, at 6:45 p.m. in the Greco Room on Level 4. * The ambassador briefing sessions will be held on Sunday, July 5, from 7:00 to 10:00 p.m. in Brulé B Room on Level 5. Those Federationists wanting to serve as ambassadors or wanting to familiarize themselves with the March and rally, can drop in any time during the three hour briefing session. The March route and tasks will be covered in detail. * Marchers can register for the March, turn in donations, and pick up their March items (such as t-shirts and medallions) at the Imagination Fund table in the Renaissance Foyer on Level 4 near the Convention registration table during registration times. March Gathering Places and Times—Be Ready to Chant and Cheer * Ambassadors and other March volunteers need to report at the Wintergarden entrance on Atwater Street by 6:00 a.m. on Monday, July 6. * Appointed sign and banner carriers need to gather 100 yards to the left of the Wintergarden entrance by 6:30 a.m. to pick up their banners/signs. * Torchbearers need to gather toward the front of the procession, at least 100 yards to the right of the Wintergarden entrance at 6:30 a.m. * Rally coordinators and stagers need to report to Rivard Plaza by 6:30 a.m. * Marchers need to gather at least 100 yards to the right of the Wintergarden entrance by 6:45 a.m. What Will Happen at the March At 6:45 a.m. the March for Independence will begin with opening remarks by Dr. Maurer. The Torch of Freedom will be lit and the March will begin by 7:00 a.m.! Around 7:30 a.m., as we are heading back toward the Renaissance Center, the “mini-Marchers” will join the procession and we'll all march together toward the rally site at Rivard Plaza. By 8:00 a.m. we will reach Rivard Plaza and the rally will begin. Route Description 1. Gather at the Wintergarden entrance on Atwater Street. Walk west on the south side of Atwater Street toward Renaissance Drive West. Be aware of potential traffic on the north side of the street. 2. Just after Bates Street (on your right), take a left back onto the RiverWalk. 3. Follow the RiverWalk until passing Hart Plaza (on your right) and the Detroit Princess Riverboat (on your left). 4. Return back to Atwater Street, which becomes Civic Center Drive. Follow Civic Center Drive to Joe Louis Arena. 5. At the intersection of 3rd Street and Civic Center Drive (with Joe Louis Arena on the right) make a left back onto the RiverWalk, and follow it back toward Hart Plaza. 6. Take the cobblestone path that leads up to Hart Plaza. 7. Go through Hart Plaza, past the fountain, and toward East Jefferson Avenue. 8. Just before East Jefferson Avenue, follow the large concrete path to the right that crosses a dead-end street (to the Ford Auditorium on the right) and leads to Bates Street. 9. Turn right onto Bates Street and continue southeast to Atwater Street. Make a left back onto Atwater Street and follow it east, back toward the Renaissance Center. We will then take the ramp to the RiverWalk. 10. Continue east along the RiverWalk the short distance to Rivard Plaza for the rally. 11. Join the rally at Rivard Plaza! The Mini-March For those who cannot walk the full 4 kilometer route (1 kilometer less than last year), there is a shorter route of approximately four blocks. This mini-March will join the main procession as it passes back by the Renaissance Center on the way to the rally site. To join the mini-March, please gather at 7:15 a.m. at the Wintergarden exit of the Renaissance Center. We will take the ramp down to the RiverWalk. If you choose to use the steps instead of the ramp to the RiverWalk, please note these steps are especially deep. There will be ambassadors on hand to make sure mini-Marchers connect with the main procession at the right time. The Rally Program The rally will begin at approximately 8:00 a.m. at Rivard Plaza. Water will be available at the rally site for all participants. The rally program will include speeches by Dr. Maurer, Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, and Dave McCurdy of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. Three outstanding Imagination Fund grant programs will be featured, and be ready to dance in the streets when Martha Reeves performs some of her Motown hits. At about 8:45 a.m., Dr. Maurer and other VIPs will lead the procession out of the plaza back to the Wintergarden. Marchers should make their way to the opening of General Session in the Renaissance Ballroom on Level 4 by 9:30 a.m. Be sure to stay for the entire rally—there are bound to be lots of surprises throughout the morning! Transportation Those with wheelchairs or special transportation needs should come to the Imagination Fund table during registration times to make sure their needs are met. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2009 March Information Packet (Large Print).doc Type: application/msword Size: 12702720 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com Sat Jun 27 19:44:56 2009 From: jessicac.kostiw at gmail.com (Jessica Kostiw) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 14:44:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Paying a Driver References: <532081.23905.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1966901B408C4EBDBF05237715B3127D@Cptr233> Message-ID: <002c01c9f75f$c08debd0$0256a962@Jessica> Hello Everyone, I have a question. When hiring a driver, is there a standard formula for determining how much you should pay them? Besides distance, I understand that time and in the Washington area traffic is a major factor. (Yesterday, a trip that should have taken about 25 minutes took over an hour.) This driver is very good, very punctual, and I want to be good to him without being ridiculous. For the six days that I have hired him I am estimating that he will be in the car for about eight and a half hours total. Our agreement is for $200, but I am wondering if that is enough now? He is paying for gas. He drives a Honda Civic, which thankfully I think is pretty good on gas. He will be making about forty dollars a trip both ways, if my calculations are correct. Any impute is appreciated. Jessica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marsha" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 7:37 AM Subject: [nabs-l] does anyone > Does anyone have a N75 battery, that they no longer need. I am absolutely > desperate for one. If anyone who does not need the battery anymore, who > could email me privately it would be wonderful. > > Thank you, > Marsha Lindsey > > Queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 4193 (20090626) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessicac.kostiw%40gmail.com From ginisd at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 27 22:44:57 2009 From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:44:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases References: Message-ID: Hi Ashley and all, Thanks for a terrific topic.. As a new, returning college student unused to doing rresearch without vision, I can really relate to your sometime frustration. Recently I took a one unit class called Library Science 101 at my college and found it tremendously helpful, although I am still learning of course. I am far, far, from an expert. Below are some of my thoughts in response to your questions, hope it helps.. In your e mail, you asked about on line library databases.Before I enrolled in my library science class, I had never used on line library databases, and frankly, was clueless what This kind of on line resource could offer. So below is a bit of info about one fairly typical database I use, I hope not too much detail, in case there are listers who might be as I was, needing the basics..Now I am an enthusiastic user of the library on line database called ProQuest. It is usually available through a college library or a public library. Typically in order to log in, a student types in his or her ID number and password, or in the case of a public library offeringProQuest, the library card number. You can then access the articles in the database, from any computer with an internet connection, so you are not restricted to school.ProQuest can vary in the scope of publications it has available to search depending on what the campus or public library decides to pay for, since it is a subscription service. Once you log in, you can search for, read on line using standard reading commands like the arrow keys and so on, and then E mail yourself articles to save Or you can copy and paste bits of text you want to go in another place.. The range of publications on ProQuest is pretty wide. For example, most academic disciplines are represented by articles from scholarly journals, from anthropology to medicine to psychology. In addition to scholarly articles, such popular magazines as People or cosmopolitan are available. I use the screen reader Window Eyes, and another blind user of ProQuest currently on campus uses Jaws. I find it very intuitive and accessible to use this database. In order to scan an article, I read the abstract, or use the Window Eyes keyboard command called mouse find to look for key terms in an on line document. I think Jaws has a similar go to function for html or online documents. Just for a off the top of my head example, say I have an article on Hilary Clinton on my screen, and I want to see if there is relevant info about her role as a mom. In Window Eyes, I would hold down the control key and shift key and tap the letter f and then type in a word like parent or chelsea, and press enter. I should then be at the point in the text where the word first occurs. But to start a search on any topic with either screen reader, , you enter search terms in an edit box, click on search, and a list of articles are displayed. Then, You can then click on a link to choose abstract, citation, or full text article. Most of the time, the article is in full text, I believe html, and the few articles that are in PdF I simply avoid at this point. I think it is fairly easy to use Open Book or a similar scanning set up, for example, to make an article in PDF format easier to read with a screen reader. I would suggest calling customer support at Freedom Scientific, in the case of Open Book, for specific keyboard steps to do this.Google is something I also use, but one advantage of a database over Google is that you do not have to navigate through ads while reading an article. I am not familiar with Google scholar , but would like to know more. To get started with on line data bases, of course you would ask for the log in information from your librarian, and once logged in, you may be able to figure out through trial and error how to use the database. Or you could ask for help if there is tech support at your school computer lab. Usually if you select your search terms carefully to enter into the database search box, you can avoid irrelevant articles. I have not yet had access to readers, so it was interesting to hear your experience with them. It is my plan now to see how far I can get on my own with research, and then see how much sighted help I will need. ProQuest is also not only for school, but also for any personal searches you want to do. Watch out for the sheer fun factor it can be addictive and trigger major bouts of goofing off. A friend of mine told me she once spent hours researching such frivolous stuff as fashion, make up and movie reviews as relief from the serious side of student life.Remember also if what you want is just a fact, like the states bordering California, , or statistics on a country, a library on line database is probably not the place to look. Here is where you can use on line encyclopedias, again, available in both college libraries or from public libraries. I am still figuring out how to use this resource.Sometimes if I want a quick fact, I will sometimes call the reference librarian at school or in the public library, they are surprisingly willing to look up answers to both serious and frivolous of questions. Time permitting, answering brief questions seems a part of their job description.Say you just absolutely had to know the name of the actress who played Zelda in the ancient TV show "The adventures of Dobie Gillis" you could call the reference librarian like I did once.) You never know when this could come up. (smile) Finally, if you want, I can look for a few articles on a topic you are searching for, it would be good practice for me, this summer I have a bit of time. I can e mail you article or two, write me off list if you like. Best, ginnie----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:33 PM Subject: [nabs-l] research techniques and databases > Hi all, > > This is sort of a school question but also one for life. We have to > research on the job so it won't go away. > Since there's new people on the list, maybe some new ideas will come > about. > > I graduated with a BA in liberal studies, studying social science and > communication. I'm getting an internship and research has come up. I > will help them research crime prevention and bullying and maybe other > things; I'm working for the National crime prevention Council. > > > Although I survived research and writing papers, it was something I > disliked; it was time consuming and frustrating. My school had online > databases but I still used hard copy sources in addition to online. Some > info just wasn't electronic. Due to problems like the inability to skim > with jaws for key things, image PDFs and paper sources, I used readers > mainly. I directed them to skim for certain key points. We read > abstracts in journals or table of contents if a book to see if it was > relevant. Then we picked out the actual sections and read them. > I researched on my own through the internet as well. > I wonder what I can do if anything to do research better. I need to be > more independent with it since I do not have a reader on the job. That's > too bad because they can skim well where as with jaws you can only go by > paragraph to get a sense of the document. > My questions are: > 1. Which databases did you find accessible? Is PSYCH Info accessible? > 2. How do you use those PDF files? What can you do in Openbook to access > them? > Many full text articles were PDF rendering them inaccessible without using > a scanner. > 3. In databases with PDFs, do you find an option for a HTML link wich is a > text link? When searching google.com they have PDF files as HTML as well. > 4. What do you do to determine if an article is relevant? So far I > thought of reading the abstract and/or intro. Sometimes I read entire > articles only to find them not as useful as I thought they would be based > on the intro. > 5. Is googlescholar.com accessible? > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.net From jw927 at comcast.net Sun Jun 28 01:16:44 2009 From: jw927 at comcast.net (Jessica) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 21:16:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] facebook applications Message-ID: <8C6B68D0330C4A6184311191355505CF@Jess> Hi all, this is for everyone who uses facebook. I am wondering if any other totally blind people on this list have been able to successfully use any of the facebook applications? I think being able to use the applications just like sighted people would be cool. Any help would be greatly appreciated. thank you From jbahm at pcdesk.net Sun Jun 28 04:07:25 2009 From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 22:07:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Paying a Driver In-Reply-To: <002c01c9f75f$c08debd0$0256a962@Jessica> References: <532081.23905.qm@web65701.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <1966901B408C4EBDBF05237715B3127D@Cptr233> <002c01c9f75f$c08debd0$0256a962@Jessica> Message-ID: <4A46EC7D.8020607@pcdesk.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hi there Jessica, I'm not entirely sure how far you've got to go, so I can't figure in gass properly. However, I can say this. $200 / 8.5 hours = aprox. $23.50 per hour This is, of course, minus his gas. If you subtract that, let's call it $20.00 per hour even, which is probably actually overdoing it a little as far as gas is concerned. Either way, between $20.00 per hour and $23.50 per hour to drive a car is more than reasonable in my opinion. This is, of course provided you aren't asking him to drive a super long distance to pick you up initially, to work super long hours or odd hours (3 am or something), that sort of thing. Joe -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKRux9AAoJEMh8jNraUiwqSAwH/082o1kb5uV+ZRz3do7ywGUk 2Kz9KUZeD4hc4RGEr0fpPSIbwxWGzOdbhuBssF+pjVJbmRleyEwLeoyQZ/hQ/prx tXYH8sBQtDlYagmoUHza4HIng534sugS6Dc3kvoVv9uzjDNFJEom1F1er/w73E0J NJN+vBcYQ87iCb9HDPDrvOEosmfBd8kxSVMdGqTHTc2aZafwF5Ar1XGVRse3TAlm euWn314xQEAuNoLgp8odltwGHYMWZrQmZ7wsbuslZHSnjW9LtsqerwiO/n6Tf1II +LljGrkJ1QJlqAZqqqtY8ZwpY4xQvQwLgW16haI1S4nIdED+gfjW0ygBbm+1BPk= =lhld -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From youthslammi at yahoo.com Sun Jun 28 01:40:06 2009 From: youthslammi at yahoo.com (melinda latham) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 20:40:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Michigan Youth Outreach Welcome Party (time included) Message-ID: I have been asked to resend as the original message didn't have the time. Dave --- On Fri, 6/26/09, melinda latham wrote: From: melinda latham Subject: [nfbmi-talk] Michigan Youth Outreach Welcome Party To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 4:40 AM ATTENTION ALL YOUTH The Youth of Michigan welcome you to our GREAT STATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Come join us for FREE FOOD and socialize. Friday, July 3, 2009 from 8;30- 11:30 PM Location; Michigan suite, 6805 Open to youth age 12-20 Please bring cards and any other games you might want to play. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to contact me, information below. Thank You and have a Great stay in Michigan. MELINDA LATHAM Youth Outreach Coordinator, NFB of MI 517.803.3800 From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 06:49:11 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 23:49:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] iPhone 3Gs Message-ID: <20090628064911.GF51791@yumi.bluecherry.net> Okay, first, who's in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRZuBe3TZyU&feature=related I have several answers on the iPhone 3Gs, and will have more in a few days (and still more in a few weeks..) Q: Will the older iPhones see VoiceOver, Zoom, or other accessibility features? A: In short, no. The iPhone began with a small, fast operating system, but the features that have been added over the past two years really are pushing the limits of the hardware. The 3Gs is clocked 50% higher than the older phones and has a generally more advanced processor. More advanced mobile screen reader users are well aware of how much of a performance hit their devices take to use a screen reader. The older iPhone would just be frustrating with that much extra load. Q: What speech engine does it use? Eloquence? Apple's Alex? A: The 3Gs uses the same Nuance Vocalizer Samantha voice you find on the Victor Reader Stream. I do not believe Apple intends to offer a choice of speech options as they do on the Mac. It would likely require a separate firmware as on the Victor Reader Stream, and I don't picture Apple doing that. Q: How accessible is it? A: So far, all functions using the iPhone's native user interface work great. It's basically tap to read, double-tap to do a regular tap. That's got to make the keyboard crazy unless Apple's got something else going for that—I'll be able to try one out before I head to Detroit for convention, and I'll be sure to offer an update when I get a chance to have a look. So far it's promising. Q: Can you edit MS Office documents with it? A: There are three solutions for editing documents on the go with the iPhone at present: Documents to Go, QuickOffice, and Google Documents. They are at various states of useful, and mobile device users may recognize DataViz DocumentsToGo. The future is promising in this area. Q: What about external keyboards? A: So far as I can tell, there is still no Bluetooth keyboard support for the iPhone. Apple touts their soft keyboard as far better than the integrated mechanical keypads on most phones that force people to lug around a separate keyboard, and it is indeed a wonderful thing for sighted people once they get used to it, but the lack of a hardware keyboard is a disadvantage to us. One way or another, there will be Bluetooth keyboards on the iPhone, but no word that Apple supports it out of the box yet. Q: Is the iPhone going to replace a note taker? A: Not yet. The signs are promising, and the iPhone is easily a giant step in the right direction. That said, it's a first step, and time will tell if Apple's notorious secrecy and control will wind up hobbling the effort, or if AT&T's stranglehold on their exclusivity contract (they won't unlock the phone for international business travelers!) is going to interfere. Q: Will we see kNFB Reader on the App Store soon? A: Yeah, and it'll be $4.99 too. *grin* Seriously though, no, the kNFB Reader software requires a 5 megapixel camera of decent quality. The iPhone 3Gs camera is only 3 megapixels, so kNFB Reader is not possible on this generation of iPhone. The camera's macro photo mode might make a note teller application possible, though! I have something a little more personal about the iPhone 3Gs as well. I've been part of the iPhone "jailbreak" community for two years now. Without the community, there would never have been an App Store or 50,000 applications out there, because Apple originally said web applications only for the iPhone. I've helped probably a thousand people apply the hacks, fix "bricked" phones, and generally use the device they paid for how they wanted to. I helped others gain full access to devices that I could not fully access myself. If I want a 3Gs, I need to get it SIM-unlocked, and you just can't get that in the United States. I had no plans to upgrade, since I would have to import a device from a reputable source at a cost of $700 or more. I'm a student, so that wasn't going to happen! One member of the community, using the alias Octothorpe, started talking to others. He said that if anybody should have an accessible iPhone, it should be me. The community has agreed to the tune of over $1000. Shortly after the iPhone becomes available in a factory unlocked market, I'll have one. The remainder of the contributions are going to the Imagination Fund, on behalf of the community. I'm also going to be working with the dev team to make the tools we use accessible to screen readers. Joseph From carter.tjoseph at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 13:45:51 2009 From: carter.tjoseph at gmail.com (T. Joseph Carter) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 06:45:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Free NFB cane In-Reply-To: <656091.34526.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <656091.34526.qm@web65712.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090628134551.GG51791@yumi.bluecherry.net> I think it has more to do with what people were likely to order most often. Regardless of what we think works best, a lot of people insist that a cane should be sternum height and folding so that you can put it away any time you "don't need to have a cane". The program should still include longer canes, in my opinion, since we want to encourage people to use a cane that is long enough for them to get around safely. Joseph On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 01:38:36PM -0700, Jim Reed wrote: >Do you suppose the 63 inch cane limit is a defacto way of making the Free White Cane Program a program for blind children and their parents? But if that is the case, why not just have an age limit? From RWest at nfb.org Sun Jun 28 15:19:26 2009 From: RWest at nfb.org (West, Renee) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 10:19:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?A_Special_Invitation_to_Learn_About_NFB-N?= =?iso-8859-1?q?EWSLINE=AE_Online=92s_Exciting_New__Initiatives_at_Nationa?= =?iso-8859-1?q?l_Convention=A0?= Message-ID: A Special Invitation to Members of the National Association of Blind Students Division Come to the NFB-NEWSLINE® suite to learn about NFB-NEWSLINE® Online’s exciting new initiatives, Web News on Demand, NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, Podable News, and KeyStream. NFB-NEWSLINE® Online can serve as a valuable tool in the performance of your coursework and in keeping up-to-date on current events and breaking news. Further, NFB-NEWSLINE® Online provides you with enhanced flexibility in how you choose to access the news; by making use of the modern assistive technology and devices that you use every day, these initiatives allow you to access the news whenever, wherever, and however you prefer. The NFB-NEWSLINE® suite, in room 6401, has computer workstations where you can get hands-on experience with these new initiatives in a more relaxed atmosphere. Staff and experienced volunteers will be there to answer any questions you may have. The open-house session days and times are below. We encourage you to stop by at any time during these sessions as fits your schedule. We look forward to seeing you there! Renee West Manager, Marketing and Outreach Sponsored Technology Programs NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND Phone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2411 Schedule follows: Friday, July 3: 9:00am - 11:00am 2:00pm - 6:00pm 8:30pm - 10:00pm Saturday, July 4: 3:30pm - 6:00pm 8:30pm - 10:00pm Sunday, July 5: 8:00am - 11:00 1:30pm - 5:30pm 8:30pm – 10:00pm Monday, July 6: 6:30pm until 10:00pm Tuesday, July 7: 6:30pm until 10:00pm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2009-06-27 Letter to Students division.doc Type: application/msword Size: 29184 bytes Desc: not available URL: From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 16:52:11 2009 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:52:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Prepare For Convention With The Djd Invasion Tonight Message-ID: <1939B740871D4F0F952A9CF7F24FB868@thedjdinvasion> Hi! Are you doing your last minute prep for convention? Maybe you're just trying to relax in preparation for the little sleep you'll get? What ever it is you're doing, get yourself psyched up with an upbeat and energetic show from The Djd Invasion!!! Join me and my co host for tonight, Performing Arts Division President and long time friend Dennis, host of Pop Tops and Super Star Groan Folk Radio, as we bring you what will I have no doubt be one of the most unique and interesting Djd Invasions ever! This evening's show will be dominated by upbeat pop, rock, and country, plus my back and forth banter with Dennis. Your phone calls and requests will be welcome By email, aol instant messenger, or msn at live at radio360.us by skype at radio360usa when we're both on the mic, or when we're on the mic, you can call us up by phone at 516-717-4425 if you don't wish to use skype to chat with us. This will be a great to welcome in the summer, and close out the month of June, and make the beginning of the week a little easier to deal with, so if you want to listen, save this email, and at 7 PM eastern tonight, which is 6 PM central, 5 PM mountain, and 4 PM pacific, go to http://www.radio360.us/players/playerselection.html to join the fun! I hope to see you all there! Best regards, David Dunphy, Radio360 Station Manager and host of The Djd Invasion http://www.radio360.us From ginisd at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 28 18:55:02 2009 From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:55:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [real-eyes] Unique "pocket" wwhite cane Message-ID: <55131F7356924004817C962AEB923E6F@windows4c0ed96> hmmmmmmmmm, intersting, Ginnie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Klamm Magic LLC" To: Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 8:23 AM Subject: [real-eyes] Unique "pocket" wwhite cane > > > UNIQUE "POCKET" CANE FOR THE BLIND! > > At last! A white cane you can put in your pocket or purse! Always > available for emergency use, or for those times when it is > inconvenient to carry a full-size cane. Made of razor blade steel, > when collapsed it measures only about 4 inches. Opens instantly to a > rigid 44 inches. Compatible with standard tips. Not recommended for > long distances, but a real life-saver in a pinch. $65 pllus $10.50 > shipping. > > The original use of this item is as a magical appearing cane for > magicians. It is just now available in this quality. I immediately > saw the advantages to those who can use a cane to get around. For > more info, call me at 816 254 0432. > > > > Looking for something fun and entertaining to read, hear, and watch? > Check out our new interactive web site at www.klammbooks.com. > > Looking for something fun and entertaining to perform? Check out: > www.klamm-magic.com, one of the few magic shopping carts you can trust! > > To subscribe or to leave the list, or to set other subscription options, > go to www.freelists.org/list/real-eyes > > From marrie12 at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 19:19:20 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 12:19:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DB6DB01F31C448398363E1313AB059B@sacomputer> Good luck when it comes to braille as for me it took 6-8 weeks to get everything brailled and I gave it toi the DRC and sometimes they took for ever getting the music or the books to me. It sucked! -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lindsay Upschulte Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:22 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] question i will be a junior in high school this year, but i had a question about college. how much braille is available in college? does it just depend what university you go to? one university i had in mind is the university of maryland, college park. i've heard many thins, so in your expierence, how mucdh braille is available? i think it would be almost impossible to do math verbally. with everything else icould get used to doing it verbally but i would prefer braille. thanks! -Lindsay _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Sun Jun 28 20:28:35 2009 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 16:28:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] question References: <5DB6DB01F31C448398363E1313AB059B@sacomputer> Message-ID: <002e01c9f82f$033fbd30$0501a8c0@Serene> Generally speaking, you don't really get Braille in college, except for an occasional novel from your library for the blind. The universities usually have nothing to do with getting Braille. I didn't take Math in college cuz I wasn't required to for my major. If it is required for yours or if you just wanna take it, using a reader can work well if you're experienced using readers. One of my friends from my college (not on this list) used a reader and he did all right in Math. The reader just happened to be a friend of his, so I think that helped in his case. Serena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question > Good luck when it comes to braille as for me it took 6-8 weeks to get > everything brailled and I gave it toi the DRC and sometimes they took > for > ever getting the music or the books to me. It sucked! > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Lindsay Upschulte > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] question > > i will be a junior in high school this year, but i had a question about > college. how much braille is available in college? does it just depend > what university you go to? one university i had in mind is the university > of maryland, college park. i've heard many thins, so in your expierence, > how mucdh braille is available? i think it would be almost impossible to > do > math verbally. with everything else icould get used to doing it verbally > but i would prefer braille. > > thanks! > -Lindsay > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 01:09:57 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:09:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] This week's show Message-ID: <611A631E15284798ABFFB2CBB5E24EEF@sacomputer> for those who are new or don't normally get this anouncement, I do a show on 2 stations. I don't normally post here on this list as I don't want to stray off topic. the message follows as well as an anouncement we will be doing for tomorrow's show. All times are in eastern tome. Take care. Well all we will be hearing a whole boatload of patriotic music as the 4th of July is coming up shortly. We will also be having the listener surprise of the week, if I receive any requests. If not I might end with the battle hymn of the republic or something like that. Info is below. Place: www.hkcradio.com Time: 9-11 pm eastern Request link: http://www.marrie.org/search.php Archives: http://feeds2.feedburner.com/tcjwb Contact link for subscribing to this list can be found at www.marrie.org and clicking the contact link near the top of the page. From snowball07 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 07:57:30 2009 From: snowball07 at gmail.com (Janice) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:57:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention References: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I was under the assumption, and I only know this for T-Mobile for certain... but that international roaming is not turned on by default. it is something that needs to be requested... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brice Smith" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention >I was told the same thing by at&t. When I explained my concerns, they > brushed them off and said that the signal would not be impacted and > that as long as I do not cross into Canada I had nothing to worry > about. > > I'm considering leaving my computer at home and only carrying my cell > with me, so I hope that I will have strong at&t coverage. I expect I > will. > > Brice > On 6/26/09, Liz Bottner wrote: >> I was told by AT&T that as long as I'm not physically in Canada, I >> shouldn't >> be charged. I wasn't told anything about needing to turn off roaming. >> >> Liz >> >> email: >> liz.bottner at gmail.com >> Visit my livejournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com From marrie12 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 08:25:30 2009 From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:25:30 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention In-Reply-To: References: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <46AA7427C61D4E0D88A8A3F9DE5124D9@sacomputer> Actually I called t-mobial and they said just about the same thing, except I think it is turned on and you can disable the network feature under the settings menu if memmory serves me. Data roming is on if you have a data plan. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Janice Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 12:58 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention I was under the assumption, and I only know this for T-Mobile for certain... but that international roaming is not turned on by default. it is something that needs to be requested... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brice Smith" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention >I was told the same thing by at&t. When I explained my concerns, they >brushed them off and said that the signal would not be impacted and >that as long as I do not cross into Canada I had nothing to worry >about. > > I'm considering leaving my computer at home and only carrying my cell > with me, so I hope that I will have strong at&t coverage. I expect I > will. > > Brice > On 6/26/09, Liz Bottner wrote: >> I was told by AT&T that as long as I'm not physically in Canada, I >> shouldn't be charged. I wasn't told anything about needing to turn >> off roaming. >> >> Liz >> >> email: >> liz.bottner at gmail.com >> Visit my livejournal: >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com >> Follow me on Twitter: >> http://twitter.com/lizbot >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%4 >> 0gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com From snowball07 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 08:40:12 2009 From: snowball07 at gmail.com (Janice) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:40:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list References: Message-ID: Hello Lavar and Nabsters, I have found that getting to know the different divisions of the NFB, is a great way to meet people with common interests. Our divisions really help illustrate the different skills and the wealth of knowledge we have here, in the Federation. I have included a link to the divisions page. All of the groups are here for networking and other great opportunities. For example, one of my favorite groups, the Sports and Rec. division, will be doing a swim workshop at the pool. The president of each division is named in the below website- with their contact information. http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Divisions_and_Committees.asp?SnID=1893477116#Divisions The information about divisions, minus the contact information is also on the agenda. Of course, there is the meeting of everybody's "favorite" division- the national Association of Blind Students. and I am expecting to have you guys all attend our annual meeting on Saturday July 4, 2009. It will be from 6:00p.m. to 10:00p.m. in the Ambassador Two Ballroom. Have a safe trip guys and catch everybody in Detroit! Kindest Regards, Janice Jeang Second Vice-President National Associate of Blind Students ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Guimaraes" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New to the list > Here is a link to a page on the First Timer's Guide. > > No details are given about specific events, but it's a good read and a > place to start. > > Other useful events include the Rookie Round up, Karaoke night, the NAB S > business meeting, employment seminar, exhibit hall, etc. > > Consult the agenda available online for time and location. > > Now here is the first timer's document. > http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/convent/firsttime.htm > Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lavar Phillips" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:29 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] New to the list > > >>I just trying to get all the information I can about convention I would >>like to meet a whole lot of new people what events should I go to so I >>can have a good time >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aguimaraes%40nbp.org >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com From newmanrl at cox.net Mon Jun 29 10:58:57 2009 From: newmanrl at cox.net (Robert Newman) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 05:58:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New THOUGHT PROVOKER #147- Don't Look Message-ID: <46346B9344D54156804F2F2E27DAB1C7@D78R0TG1> NABS member RE: Don't Look THOUGHT PROVOKER #147 is all about a parent who is overly protective of her blind child. See if you recognize any of this behavior and what was it that helped your parents achieve a healthier balance with their concern and your freedom. If you have not read the PROVOKER, it follows. Recall that I collect responses and post them upon my web site for all the WWW to read and learn from and that URL is- Http://thoughtprovoker.info If you wish to receive THOUGHT PROVOKERS sent directly to you, just write me and ask, at- newmanrl at cox.net THOUGHT PROVOKER 147 Don't Look "Ohhh." a faint cry of concern squeezed out from where Meagan pressed the back of her hand against her mouth. Sitting at the kitchen table, she watched her ten year old blind daughter, Carrie standing at the stove with her Rehabilitation Teacher, learning to fry her first pancake. Meagan couldn't stand it, her remaining hand flew up to cover her eyes (one bright green pupil peeking through parted fingers). "I think it's ready to turn over --- it slides when I touch it with the spatula." Carrie's tone suggesting both self-talk and an open question to the adult at her side. Pam responded with a question. "What do you think? How might you tell?" "Well, it's all one piece and --- when I put the spatula just a little under it, it has that special feel of not bending --- if I can catch up with it again." The sounds of a spatula tapping and scraping sounded as the young cook worked to flip the cake over, before it burned. "You're doing great." Pam's calming voice was intended for both Carrie and Meagan. She wasn't worried about her student. However in working with this family, it hadn't taken long to recognize the over protectiveness of the mother. And from the get-go, she had encouraged Meagan to be an observer of all lessons; though she hadn't yet noticed any major revelation on Meagan's part that blindness in and of itself wasn't a major handicapping feature to Carrie's abilities. Meagan, still tense, sat as quietly as she could. It always took an effort to not step in and help her daughter; watching Carrie searching for things or hesitating or fumbling with something new always pulled Meagan's heartstrings. Having Pam come in once a week to work with Carrie had been a solution to a problem that Meagan hadn't thought could be answered, until she had joined a parents group and learned that there were professionals who could teach independent living skills. Later, cooking and follow-up cleaning successfully completed, teacher gone, the exultant Carrie was in her room looking for an outfit that she would wear the next day for a special outing. "Oh fudge buckets --- where did that new top go?" She hurriedly fingered one hanging garment after another, sliding them sharply to the side, reaching for the next. "Darling, here, let me help you." Meagan stood behind her daughter, reaching out. "Is it the fuzzy purple with the square buttons, that you want?" "Mom, please. I can find it." "Oh I know, darling. I'll just be faster." "Mom! Pam wants me to practice more, doing stuff for myself. Okay." "Oh --- you're right. I'll go and start supper. So if you need me, yell." Meagan walked out of the room, making a show of leaving. However, she silently paused, aligning one eye to peek around the corner of the open doorway. The next day- "Meagan, hi, coming in?" Said the woman walking up to where Meagan stood waiting and watching at the corner of a lighted, moderately busy intersection. Melinda and Meagan were both members of a local chapter of Parents of blind children. The parents had agreed to wait for their children in side a coffee shop across the street from where the kids were to be dropped off. The idea being, the students would de-bus, cross the street, find the shop, come in and find their parent. "Oh --- I'll be in before they get to the shop --- I just worry --- oh, it's silly." Meagan knew her answer hadn't come across well; it hadn't even made her, feel better. "Meagan," said Melinda, lightly touching her friend's arm. "The kids will be fine. They've had training. These outings are to give them experience and as they work to learn and perfect their blindness skills, they will struggle. It's how all of us learn." Pausing, reflecting, Melinda finished with, "Meagan, may I share with you the best piece of advice I have ever been given?" Seeing the acceptance, the need in Meagan's eyes, Melinda said, "It was --- don't look." Robert Leslie Newman Email- newmanrl at cox.net THOUGHT PROVOKER Website- Http://www.thoughtprovoker.info From jsorozco at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 14:21:02 2009 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:21:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] U Improving U Student Seminar Message-ID: Subject: U Improving U Student Seminar "U Improving U" Student Seminar Brought to you by the National Association of Blind Students, Southern Region. Hosted by the Georgia Association of Blind Students. Where: The Ramada Plaza, 100 1st street, Downtown Macon, Georgia When: August 14 to August 16, 2009 Who: All blind students from Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee are encouraged to attend. What: There will be exciting topics such as: o Technology o Preparing for College o Fashion o Developing a Student Division o Career Development o NFB Philosophy o And Much Much More!!! To reserve your hotel room, call the Ramada Plaza at: (478) 746-1461 The registration fee is $20 for the seminar and $20 for the banquet. Pre-Register now before the deadline August 1st to receive a $10 discount. Go to www.nfbga.org/GABS/ to register. Come join us in an eventfull weekend that will inspire you to improve yourself personally. You will have opportunities to meet new people, be exposed to valuable information, and to have fun! For more information contact Isaiah Wilcox by phone (404) 291-7791 or by e-mail, iwilcox at nfbga.org Isaiah Wilcox President of the Georgia Association of Blind Students Phone: 404-291-7791 E-mail: iwilcox2011 at gmail.com From snowball07 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 15:40:17 2009 From: snowball07 at gmail.com (Janice) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:40:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [Fabs] U Improving U Student Seminar References: Message-ID: <15326576B99B40ACA8E7666B6373ECC9@your0d10610b06> Joe and memebers of Fabs, Sorry guys! There is a little bit of incorrect information. It is the South East Region.... Not the South East. I would hate for you guys to check the website and see that you are not in the correct region! Thanks! Kindest Regards, Janice Jeang South-East Regional Rep. Second Vice-President national Association of Blind Students. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'Arizona Students'" ; "'California Students'" ; "'Colorado Center'" ; "'Colorado Students'" ; "'Florida Students'" ; "'Illinois Students'" ; "'Kansas Students'" ; "'Kentucky Students'" ; "'Louisiana Students'" ; "'Michigan'" ; "'Minnesota Students'" ; "'Missouri'" ; "'National'" ; "'Nebraska'" ; "'New Hampshire Students'" ; "'New Jersey Students'" ; "'North Carolina Students'" ; "'Ohio'" ; "'Pennsylvania'" ; "'Presidents'" ; "'TABS Students'" ; "'Tennessee Students'" ; "'Utah Students'" ; "'Virginia Students'" Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 9:21 AM Subject: [Fabs] U Improving U Student Seminar > Subject: U Improving U Student Seminar > > > > "U Improving U" Student Seminar > > Brought to you by the National Association of Blind Students, Southern > Region. > > Hosted by the Georgia Association of Blind Students. > > Where: The Ramada Plaza, 100 1st street, Downtown Macon, Georgia > > When: August 14 to August 16, 2009 > > Who: All blind students from Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, > South Carolina, and Tennessee are encouraged to attend. > > What: There will be exciting topics such as: > > o Technology > o Preparing for College > o Fashion > o Developing a Student Division > o Career Development > o NFB Philosophy > o And Much Much More!!! > > To reserve your hotel room, call the Ramada Plaza at: (478) 746-1461 > > The registration fee is $20 for the seminar and $20 for the banquet. > Pre-Register now before the deadline August 1st to receive a $10 discount. > Go to www.nfbga.org/GABS/ to register. > > Come join us in an eventfull weekend that will inspire you to improve > yourself personally. You will have opportunities to meet new people, be > exposed to valuable information, and to have fun! > > For more information contact Isaiah Wilcox by phone (404) 291-7791 or by > e-mail, iwilcox at nfbga.org > > Isaiah Wilcox > President of the Georgia Association of Blind Students > Phone: 404-291-7791 > E-mail: iwilcox2011 at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Fabs mailing list > Fabs at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/fabs_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Fabs: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/fabs_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com From jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 23:13:18 2009 From: jessica.trask.reagan at gmail.com (Jess) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:13:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] facebook applications In-Reply-To: <8C6B68D0330C4A6184311191355505CF@Jess> References: <8C6B68D0330C4A6184311191355505CF@Jess> Message-ID: Jessica, For the most part all the applications are highly visual more the most part. The only things that I believe are accessible are all the quizzes. Jess ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jessica" To: Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 9:16 PM Subject: [nabs-l] facebook applications > Hi all, this is for everyone who uses facebook. I am wondering if any > other totally blind people on this list have been able to successfully use > any of the facebook applications? I think being able to use the > applications just like sighted people would be cool. Any help would be > greatly appreciated. thank you > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jessica.trask.reagan%40gmail.com From nijat1989 at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 15:31:55 2009 From: nijat1989 at gmail.com (Nijat Worley) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:31:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phonesat Convention References: <4A45A5C3.10204@pcdesk.net> Message-ID: <6CFCD3FB71834A948C0B21FC260541FB@Nijatash> Greetings Joe, Thank you very much for your explaination about the romeing problem. I will try out your suggestions. Thanks again. Yours Nijat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph C. Lininger" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phonesat Convention > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > Nijat, > If your carrier can't help you, then you have a couple possibilities. > > 1. You might be able to set your phone not to rome. This varies by > phone, and even by carrier. Mostly by carrier in my experience, > actually. But it's worth looking at. > > 2. Depending on how the roming works in this specific situation, you > might be uneffected. Sometimes, in order to rome you have to speak with > someone on the target carrier's network and provide a credit card, etc. > instead of it automatically happening and being billed to your phone > later. I can't say if this is the case for you, but it might be. > > 3. Your phone probably displays your roming status. This isn't > necessarily accurate, but it's a pretty strong indicator of roming if > your phone's indicator shows roming. It's just that sometimes you could > be roming and your indicator wouldn't show it. If you don't trust the > indicator, see the final suggestion below. > > finally... > > 4. You can try dialing 611 before making a call. This is the number most > carriers use for contacting customer service from your cell phone, and > it doesn't generally result in any charges even when roming. Sprint PCS > customers, dial *611 instead. This is how you reach your "current > carrier" customer service, be it Sprint PCS or some roming provider. > Everyone else should use 611. Nijat, specifically, use 611 since you're > with T-Mobile. This is probably more reliable than your phone's > indicator, but be aware there are cases when it could fail. For example, > let's say you dial 611 and get t-mobile, your carrier. Then you hang up > and start to dial the number you want to call. In the time you do that, > your phone switches to roming. It is unlikely, but it is a possibility. > > Of these options, I recommend option 1 if you can do it, with options 3 > and 4 together as a backup plan if you can't use option 1. Check the > indicator, and if you aren't sure do 611 or *611 depending on if you use > Sprint PCS or not. Then check the indicator again just before dialing > your final destination. > > > Hope this helps you all out. > Joe > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) > > iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJKRaXDAAoJEMh8jNraUiwqIZ8H/01ciHOAAKHSMdli/T6rZUOM > NY3qpdmzGQVlypH1jvYaAzxFhDoSObRWtyS9AXfamNVGgELkxA2G2oaJHvH2nJ/N > BJFEUQVTf+DJx80Nrtl9kXM/v2HH76CgFBpJiZBocxYHlbPr/2TMZYeEIXCcpjYg > wlvoDv0RkyZqiTeIT2OPcmYZR4Na8QXCxHemUfRzFNzJJt5hUkCd8GAUGGs1Dwya > IorHDV/SoQsPeLE8AsX3zpB2oAcJB5p802FEbCOOL8wHk+2tgKUpP+hNOYNS1xcD > FL4fhhnoVjNd1v8xiwkwHDAC93a5uIZy01jQsWxB+cOWmrTFUN5lY498SuADmfQ= > =sD8J > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nijat1989%40gmail.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 00:01:33 2009 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:01:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] facebook applications In-Reply-To: <8C6B68D0330C4A6184311191355505CF@Jess> References: <8C6B68D0330C4A6184311191355505CF@Jess> Message-ID: <4383d01d0906291701n160892f2i3286fadbaa965516@mail.gmail.com> Nearly all of the FB aps are accessible, Jessica, with JAWS. I take quizzes and I sometimes even do the How Well do You Know Me? stuff. It's pretty cool. Beth On 6/27/09, Jessica wrote: > Hi all, this is for everyone who uses facebook. I am wondering if any other > totally blind people on this list have been able to successfully use any of > the facebook applications? I think being able to use the applications just > like sighted people would be cool. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > thank you > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com > From MRiccobono at nfb.org Tue Jun 30 14:32:03 2009 From: MRiccobono at nfb.org (Riccobono, Mark) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 09:32:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Join a town hall meeting on Equal Access at the Pharmacy Counter Message-ID: An important opportunity to impact pharmacy accessibility: Saturday, July 4 at the NFB National Convention 4:30 - 5:30 pm—WAL-MART AND NFB JERNIGAN INSTITUTE: FUTURE INNOVATIONS FORUM Brulé A Room, Level 5 Join a town hall meeting on Equal Access at the Pharmacy Counter. Discuss emerging issues, best practices, and preferences as a blind or low-vision consumer. Influence future work through the NFB Jernigan Institute to encourage innovative Pharmacy practices and take the opportunity for the world's largest retailer to hear your voice. From hope.paulos at maine.edu Tue Jun 30 16:29:14 2009 From: hope.paulos at maine.edu (Hope Paulos) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:29:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] question References: <5DB6DB01F31C448398363E1313AB059B@sacomputer> Message-ID: <82BCE4F2F9714A1BAF09162C3E2797ED@Hope> Depends on the University I believe. OUr disability support services is really good hre at UMaine. But it took awhile for them to actually purchase a braille embosser. When they did it's absolutely wonderful. Or else you could get a braille note taker which would show you the text in Braille on the display. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question > Good luck when it comes to braille as for me it took 6-8 weeks to get > everything brailled and I gave it toi the DRC and sometimes they took > for > ever getting the music or the books to me. It sucked! > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Lindsay Upschulte > Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:22 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] question > > i will be a junior in high school this year, but i had a question about > college. how much braille is available in college? does it just depend > what university you go to? one university i had in mind is the university > of maryland, college park. i've heard many thins, so in your expierence, > how mucdh braille is available? i think it would be almost impossible to > do > math verbally. with everything else icould get used to doing it verbally > but i would prefer braille. > > thanks! > -Lindsay > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40maine.edu From alberto.2500 at gmail.com Tue Jun 30 16:41:05 2009 From: alberto.2500 at gmail.com (alberto arreola) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:41:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] face book applications In-Reply-To: <8C6B68D0330C4A6184311191355505CF@Jess> References: <8C6B68D0330C4A6184311191355505CF@Jess> Message-ID: <4a4a4024.1aba720a.4199.1e9b@mx.google.com> Jessica I am completely blind and I have both a my space page, and Face book. Out of the two I've been able to use everything on face book. I've tried lots of different applications, and they are very accessible. If you have any other questions email me at alberto.2500 at gmail.com. I'll be glad to answer any questions you might have. Alberto -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jessica Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 7:17 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] facebook applications Hi all, this is for everyone who uses facebook. I am wondering if any other totally blind people on this list have been able to successfully use any of the facebook applications? I think being able to use the applications just like sighted people would be cool. Any help would be greatly appreciated. thank you _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/alberto.2500%40gmail .com From info at michaelhingson.com Tue Jun 30 17:12:47 2009 From: info at michaelhingson.com (Michael Hingson) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:12:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] KnfbReader Mobile new pricing and exciting news Message-ID: KnfbReader Mobile new pricing and exciting news Greetings everyone, I am excited to announce to you that the National Federation of the Blind Reader sales program will be selling the KnfbReader Mobile at this year's convention in Detroit. If you have wanted a KnfbReader and have not had a chance to experience it then come to Detroit and see this exciting and innovative technology marvel for yourself. You can also walk away from the convention with a Reader of your own for the best price ever. Because of negotiations with our suppliers we now are offering a KnfbReader Mobile including software, the Nokia N82 phone, and Talks all for a bundled price of $1,595.00. This price is only good for the purchase of the full bundle. Our normal price for Talks is $295.00. The Reader including the phone without Talks is $1,370. This means that buying the Reader now and Talks later will cost $1,665.00 or $70 more than the bundled price. We also can provide the Reader with MobileSpeak for the same $1,665 price. At this point we cannot offer the less expensive bundled price with MobileSpeak. For those who do not have a credit card or cash on hand we will be taking NFB technology loan applications in the exhibit hall. We are working on a way to provide expedited approval for applications received at the NFB convention. In all, owning a KnfbReader Mobile has never been more affordable and it has never been easier. Come see us in Detroit and learn how you too can go totally globally mobile. Oh yes, if you plan to buy a Reader at the convention and wish to pre order with a credit card, please call me at (415) 827-4084. By pre ordering all you need do in Detroit is come by and pick up the Reader with your name on it. See you in Michigan. To your success, Mike Hingson The Michael Hingson Group "Speaking with Vision" Michael Hingson, President (415) 827-4084 info at michaelhingson.com www.michaelhingson.com for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit: http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com From dandrews at visi.com Tue Jun 30 21:09:08 2009 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:09:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] =?iso-8859-1?q?Availability_of_Organizational_Convention?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Agendas_on_NFB-NEWSLINE=AE?= Message-ID: Availability of Organizational Convention Agendas on NFB-NEWSLINE® Both the ACB and the NFB will be holding their conventions within the next few weeks, and as a service to our subscribers we are making the convention agendas for both consumer organizations available on NFB-NEWSLINE®. To access these convention agendas, from the main menu press option number five “Newspapers in a Different State” for regions, and choose option number four “National Meetings of Interest to the Print Disabled.” From that point you may select option number one to access the ACB 2009 Convention Agenda, or option number two for the NFB 2009 Convention Agenda, or option number three for NFB-NEWSLINE® Detailed Convention Agenda. For those of you who use NFB-NEWSLINE® In Your Pocket, you may choose to download these convention agendas onto your personal digital talking book player and enjoy having the entire agenda on your small portable device. To do so, you will first need to add the convention agenda(s) to your Favorites list (option number four from the main menu) over the phone. This information is also available online via Web News on Demand at www.nfbnewslineonline.org. To find the agenda of your choice, search for the agenda title in the “Publications Organized Alphabetically” category. Using Web News on Demand to read your agenda(s) allows you to easily search for details such as a particular meeting’s start time or room number. You can also have an e-mail of the entire agenda, a particular day’s schedule, or meeting information sent to your inbox on demand. If you should have any questions, please call Bob Watson, NFB-NEWSLINE® Content Manager, at (410) 659-9314, extension 2356. David Andrews and white cane Harry. From brsmith24 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 30 21:11:44 2009 From: brsmith24 at hotmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:11:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention In-Reply-To: References: <4a44d98f.1420720a.1696.ffffe3fd@mx.google.com> Message-ID: AT&T international roaming will automatically activate If you leave any AT&T coverage area. If you frequently travel internationally, you can pay extra to roam internationally at reduced rates. I know AT&T offers packages for frequent travelers to Canada and perhaps Mexico, but you must sign up for these discounts or you will be charged at standard rates for international roaming. I called customer service today, And while they again reassured me that I shouldn't have any problems, they logged my concerns and said they would credit me back any international roaming charges as long as I stayed in Detroit. A couple quick Google searches on the subject note the same thing, that you *can* receive cell signals from Canada in the Metro, but that AT&T usually will remove those charges in the unlikely event they become a problem. Most posts from internet forum users who work at the Marriott don't have problems. I'm glad that this topic was brought to our attention, for it's something most of us would probably overlook. But I wouldn't worry too much. Brice > From: snowball07 at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:57:30 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones atConvention > > I was under the assumption, and I only know this for T-Mobile for certain... > but that international roaming is not turned on by default. it is something > that needs to be requested... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brice Smith" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 1:17 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] international roaming and your Cell Phones > atConvention > > > >I was told the same thing by at&t. When I explained my concerns, they > > brushed them off and said that the signal would not be impacted and > > that as long as I do not cross into Canada I had nothing to worry > > about. > > > > I'm considering leaving my computer at home and only carrying my cell > > with me, so I hope that I will have strong at&t coverage. I expect I > > will. > > > > Brice > > On 6/26/09, Liz Bottner wrote: > >> I was told by AT&T that as long as I'm not physically in Canada, I > >> shouldn't > >> be charged. I wasn't told anything about needing to turn off roaming. > >> > >> Liz > >> > >> email: > >> liz.bottner at gmail.com > >> Visit my livejournal: > >> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com > >> Follow me on Twitter: > >> http://twitter.com/lizbot > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith2424%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/snowball07%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brsmith24%40hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From jw927 at comcast.net Tue Jun 30 21:25:57 2009 From: jw927 at comcast.net (Jessica) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:25:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] non-credit meditation class Message-ID: Hi everyone. I hope everyone is having a nice summer. Ok, I am considering taking a non-credit meditation class in July. My questions are: is meditation visual? Meaning are the meditation techniques visual? If so, how should I go about taking the class? Please help me because I am wanting to take this class to hopefully reduce my stress level. thank you