From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  1 02:02:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:02:58 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
Message-ID: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>

Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about 600  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense trying incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. Here is the link to the article.

http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are the 2 emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.

accessibility at apple.com
and
info at senseg.com

Take care all.

S

From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  1 02:16:05 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:16:05 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
In-Reply-To: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinrZ04g9gBChzbUReowfWGT+sFr4=ZSSkjJHoc4@mail.gmail.com>

There is a project here at North Carolina State University, headed by
a member of our local NFB group, developing a full-page refreshable
Braille display using, I believe, hydro power? Dr. Y, the inventor,
says they'll have one cell ready in about three years and then it'll
be no time at all before they have a full-page disaplay. I don't
remember how much they said it would be, but it's going to be around
4-6 or more years before it is out. Personally, from what Dr. Y has
told us, it will be well worth that wait!

Does anyone have a link to the information about this project? I
couldn't seem to find it. Justin, Brice, Shawn?

On 7/31/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about 600
>  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense trying
> incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. Here is
> the link to the article.
>
> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are the 2
> emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>
> accessibility at apple.com
> and
> info at senseg.com
>
> Take care all.
>
> S
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jj at bestmidi.com  Sun Aug  1 23:03:14 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 19:03:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Knowing your Books in Advance
Message-ID: <DBBAF908B0B14173867962C83EC0594C@jage>

There's a new law that may help out blind people who want to ensure they can get their books in an accessible format. This from Consumerist.

Finding the best textbooks prices just got a whole lot easier now that colleges are
required to provide students with a list of required textbooks when they register
for classes. The requirement was mandated back in the 2008 as part of the Higher
Education Opportunity Act, but only took effect this year.
"
Proponents say the law will give students more time to take advantage of textbook
buy-back programs, book rentals and prices that are often lower online than in college
bookstores. They expect it will also force professors to pay more attention to the
cost of books they assign.
"Until this year, many schools didn't give the book list until the week before classes,
and you really had no choice but to head to the college bookstore," says Christine
Frietchen, editor in chief of ConsumerSearch.com.
J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
A premier Code Factory, KNFB Reader, and Sendero distributor

From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sun Aug  1 23:22:47 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 19:22:47 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Knowing your Books in Advance
In-Reply-To: <DBBAF908B0B14173867962C83EC0594C@jage>
References: <DBBAF908B0B14173867962C83EC0594C@jage>
Message-ID: <C4181079C4F24C19B916941852065BDB@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Hello,

Thanks for the info.  I do happen to know the titles/authors, etc. to most 
of my textbooks for the upcoming semester.  I have been researching online 
to see if the books are available in an ebook format, and I discovered that 
at least one of them is.  My concern is that the book, even if I obtain the 
online version, will not be accessible to me.  Acording to the website I 
explored, it claims that books may not be accessible and to contact the 
publisher, but that it was working toward making the books accessible. 
Also, it did not mention that the books would be inaccessible to any 
specific disability group, such as blindness.  I am emailing to see if 
anyone on this list has experience with ebooks that are textbooks, and if 
so, were you able to access or obtain JAWS scripts to allow you to access 
the book.  Thank you.  Just FYI, the link I discovered is:
"Find your college textbook at low prices | CourseSmart"
http://www.coursesmart.com/search
Anita Adkins
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:03 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Knowing your Books in Advance


> There's a new law that may help out blind people who want to ensure they 
> can get their books in an accessible format. This from Consumerist.
>
> Finding the best textbooks prices just got a whole lot easier now that 
> colleges are
> required to provide students with a list of required textbooks when they 
> register
> for classes. The requirement was mandated back in the 2008 as part of the 
> Higher
> Education Opportunity Act, but only took effect this year.
> "
> Proponents say the law will give students more time to take advantage of 
> textbook
> buy-back programs, book rentals and prices that are often lower online 
> than in college
> bookstores. They expect it will also force professors to pay more 
> attention to the
> cost of books they assign.
> "Until this year, many schools didn't give the book list until the week 
> before classes,
> and you really had no choice but to head to the college bookstore," says 
> Christine
> Frietchen, editor in chief of ConsumerSearch.com.
> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
> A premier Code Factory, KNFB Reader, and Sendero distributor
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 00:33:48 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 20:33:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Knowing your Books in Advance
In-Reply-To: <C4181079C4F24C19B916941852065BDB@AnitaAdkinsPC>
References: <DBBAF908B0B14173867962C83EC0594C@jage>
	<C4181079C4F24C19B916941852065BDB@AnitaAdkinsPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikW5ioVLbm91r_hJMqS_9NJM4AuwHW1B-kdvHzo@mail.gmail.com>

In contrast, I know of only two of my four books for class. I know
them because I talked directly to the professors for the classes.
However, the professor for the third never replied to my inquiries,
and the fourth is either a new or temporary professor or from another
university, and so no one knows his/her information. I don't even know
if the professor is male or female! The others are all female, and I
do better with female professors, so I hope the fourth is female also.
Anyway, it's two weeks until school starts and we still don't have the
book information for two of the classes. The disability office needs
at least two weeks to scan the books to make them Word documents to be
accessible and add the alt tags for pictures. So, two of my books
probably won't be available in accessible format until a week after
classes start minimum. One is available from RFBD, though, and the
Spanish book has been scanned up (was scanned by DSS before I even
knew which book...the professor actually went to DSS and presented
them with a copy that they could scan before I bought my own
copy...now that's a nice professor!

So, this new law will be helpful for me so I'm not struggling to get
my books in time for classes. Thanks for the information!

~Jewel

On 8/1/10, Anita Adkins <aadkins7 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thanks for the info.  I do happen to know the titles/authors, etc. to most
> of my textbooks for the upcoming semester.  I have been researching online
> to see if the books are available in an ebook format, and I discovered that
> at least one of them is.  My concern is that the book, even if I obtain the
> online version, will not be accessible to me.  Acording to the website I
> explored, it claims that books may not be accessible and to contact the
> publisher, but that it was working toward making the books accessible.
> Also, it did not mention that the books would be inaccessible to any
> specific disability group, such as blindness.  I am emailing to see if
> anyone on this list has experience with ebooks that are textbooks, and if
> so, were you able to access or obtain JAWS scripts to allow you to access
> the book.  Thank you.  Just FYI, the link I discovered is:
> "Find your college textbook at low prices | CourseSmart"
> http://www.coursesmart.com/search
> Anita Adkins
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:03 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Knowing your Books in Advance
>
>
>> There's a new law that may help out blind people who want to ensure they
>> can get their books in an accessible format. This from Consumerist.
>>
>> Finding the best textbooks prices just got a whole lot easier now that
>> colleges are
>> required to provide students with a list of required textbooks when they
>> register
>> for classes. The requirement was mandated back in the 2008 as part of the
>> Higher
>> Education Opportunity Act, but only took effect this year.
>> "
>> Proponents say the law will give students more time to take advantage of
>> textbook
>> buy-back programs, book rentals and prices that are often lower online
>> than in college
>> bookstores. They expect it will also force professors to pay more
>> attention to the
>> cost of books they assign.
>> "Until this year, many schools didn't give the book list until the week
>> before classes,
>> and you really had no choice but to head to the college bookstore," says
>> Christine
>> Frietchen, editor in chief of ConsumerSearch.com.
>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
>> A premier Code Factory, KNFB Reader, and Sendero distributor
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jj at bestmidi.com  Mon Aug  2 17:30:06 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:30:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] A T Guys has the iBill, and is giving one Away
Message-ID: <DA580A081B0D43F4A4E282A49714F47F@jage>

A T Guys is proud to be a distributor of the iBill Banknote Identifier, the smallest and most affordable identifier of U.S. currency available.
And this week, we're giving one away during the A T Guys Summer of Prizes.
Go to http://www.atguys.com/summerprizesintro.php for more information about the contest and how to enter. Each week we're giving away a bigger prize, all leading up to the grand prize, an HTC S743 cell phone with Mobile Speak and Mobile Geo GPS along with an Iblue 737A+ GPS receiver.

To purchase the iBill, visit http://www.atguys.com to place your order or call 269-216-4798. If your name is drawn, we'll refund your order. The iBill is available for $99 plus actual shipping which is calculated at checkout and is usually around $6 for the iBill.

Thanks for reading, and good luck.


J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
A premier Code Factory, KNFB Reader, and Sendero distributor

From dianefilipe at peoplepc.com  Mon Aug  2 17:47:31 2010
From: dianefilipe at peoplepc.com (Diane)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:47:31 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blackboard questions,
	your post to the national Association of blind students was
In-Reply-To: <54059FCB-5760-4D55-9BA5-BA42870793C2@me.com>
References: <54059FCB-5760-4D55-9BA5-BA42870793C2@me.com>
Message-ID: <CFAF5727B40A4837BD713A4094B45738@DianePC>

Hey Maurice,
Either you are way behind or way ahead of your self as version 9.1 was just 
released and we heard about it at National.
Diane
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Maurice Mines" <minesm at me.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2010 10:16 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] Blackboard questions, your post to the national 
Association of blind students was


> Hello, I continue that I recently health University of Northern Colorado 
> finish the certification of blackboard 94 leaves of myself and other blind 
> students on our campus. I use Jaws for Windows, window eyes, and in my 
> graduate program in educational technology I use the Mac quite heavily. 
> I've had absolutely no major problems using blackboard either in the 
> evaluation phase of blackboard nine order in actual for real coursework. I 
> also have other disabilities that I have to accommodate while using 
> blackboard and would be happy to answer some questions on the other two. I 
> have a written expression disorder a.k.a. I use a cousin of Dragon 
> NaturallySpeaking called MacSpeech Dictate in order to write this message. 
> Half of the significant hearing last sol I use braille as well. As far as 
> technical specifications go. My blackboard tests and certifying blackboard 
> nine were done on an HP Pavilion desktop PC running Windows 7 professional 
> 64-bit so vast I use the 64-bit version of Jaws, and the 64-bit version of 
> window eyes. I also tested this with the 32-bit version of Windows on both 
> a MacBook and iMac specifications the virtual machine which was also 
> running Windows 7 was configured with approximately 2 GB of RAM and two 
> processor cores. The host machines MacBook 2.4 GHz processor for gig of 
> RAM running Mac OSx 10.6.4 with VM Ware fusion 3.2. Jaws version 11 32-bit 
> window eyes version 7.2 32-bit note the 64-bit versions of both of these 
> two screenwriters were used on the HP Pavilion desktop machine running at 
> 2.66 GHz core two dual +2 a.k.a. four processors. Continuing with the 
> Apple specifications iMac running at 2.66 GHz core two duo hard drive on 
> the MacBook 250 GB the iMac 1 TB. I also further tested this by using a 
> Gateway network, and unfortunately the results were not nearly as positive 
> when using them that book so I do have some concerns with the net book 
> when running either jobs or window eyes and using blackboard however due 
> to the rearing variety of net books and their configurations I would 
> simply say work with the student and/or students to attempt to resolve the 
> issues is that, MacSpeech Dictate a.k.a. Dragon is what it would be in the 
> PC world I only use blackboard and the dictation software while using the 
> Apple Mac operating system and Safari so I don't have any feedback on how 
> well the dictation might work in Windows. It's hard to dictation goes 
> blackboard was tested again with both the iMac and the MacBook both 
> machines had MacOS X 10.6.4, MacSpeech Dictate 1.5 acts if you have any 
> further questions comments or concerns please send me e-mail at my student 
> e-mail address listed below, if you need to talk to me via phone please 
> feel free to give me a call at 970-352-1833 I hope this helps you out you 
> do have my permission to use my comments as you see fit. I do have however 
> asked that if you do use my comments in case I am asked about them could 
> you please kindly provided me a copy of those comments if it is 
> appropriate that you very much for reading this and have a great day.
> maurice amateur radio call sign,kd0iko.
> national Federation of the blind of Cole Rondo assisted newsline 
> coordinator, office phone 970.
> 373-3076 Northern Colorado amateur radio club tried Vander, newsletter 
> editor. University of Northern Colorado student e-mail address , 
> mine1533 at bears.unco.edu.
> note this message has been dictate by using MacSpeech dictate,  Some words 
> may be spelled incorrectl, may also be in the wrong context.
> Please forgive any errors in the text of this communication.
> Thank you very much forreading this.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40peoplepc.com 



From mgoalball at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 17:34:10 2010
From: mgoalball at gmail.com (Matt McCubbin)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:34:10 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} [blind-bst] A T Guys has the iBill,
	and is giving one Away
Message-ID: <4C570192.7020100@gmail.com>

A T Guys is proud to be a distributor of the iBill Banknote Identifier, 
the smallest and most affordable identifier of U.S. currency available.
And this week, we're giving one away during the A T Guys Summer of Prizes.
Go to http://www.atguys.com/summerprizesintro.php for more information 
about the contest and how to enter. Each week we're giving away a bigger 
prize, all leading up to the grand prize, an HTC S743 cell phone with 
Mobile Speak and Mobile Geo GPS along with an Iblue 737A+ GPS receiver.

To purchase the iBill, visit http://www.atguys.com to place your order 
or call 269-216-4798. If your name is drawn, we'll refund your order. 
The iBill is available for $99 plus actual shipping which is calculated 
at checkout and is usually around $6 for the iBill.

Thanks for reading, and good luck.

Best regards,
Matt McCubbin
A T Guys, LLC
Your Assistive Technology Experts
(269) 216-4798
http://www.ATGuys.com
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From chickpowermusic at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 19:41:49 2010
From: chickpowermusic at gmail.com (Ginny Owens)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:41:49 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Abi-See EyePal: $495
In-Reply-To: <DF62CC178021461894A08DB888EB1B27@jage>
References: <DF62CC178021461894A08DB888EB1B27@jage>
Message-ID: <00b501cb327a$c1cdccc0$45696640$@com>

Great condition.  Paypal accepted.

Please email chickpowermusic at gmail.com for further details.



See description below:

ABiSee Eye-Pal: Converts print into speech and Braille for deaf blind

Weighing in under just 1lb, Eye-Pal is an extremely portable USB scanner
that instantly converts printed material into speech, text files or
refreshable Braille. Eye-Pal may be used with the most popular braille
displays from Freedom Scientific, Optelec, and Handytech.





Eye-Pal's Intelligent Design & Engineering: It Doesn't Get Much Easier Than
This.


We designed simplicity and ease of use into all facets of this instant
scanner. Eye-Pal has two lightweight legs pivot into a L-shaped position
from their compact carrying position. The L-shape configuration securely
supports the Eye-Pal, assures that its scanning camera is always at the
exact distance to obtain a crystal clear image and serves as a tactile guide
for blind users to precisely position the material to be scanned. No camera
focus adjustments are ever necessary.


The Eye-Pal Works Fast To Push Your Productivity Up


http://www.abisee.com/images/products/eye-pal(1).jpgAt home and at the
office, even in the dark, Eye-Pal allows you to quickly browse through piles
of letters and organize them either as paper or computer files. With Eye-Pal
you can read bound books, newspapers, professional magazines and even
instructions on the frozen dinner box. Comes with Human-Like Synthetic
Voices Kate <http://www.abisee.com/media/audio/vwkate.wav>  | and Paul
<http://www.abisee.com/media/audio/vwpaul.wav> 

Save text as MS document for future editing. With the press of a single key,
Eye-Pal will describe
<http://www.abisee.com/media/video/zoom-ex/4_description_of_page_zoom-ex.wmv
> a page layout as a sighted person sees it. You can instantly read text
placed under the camera using one of the most popular braille

Eye-Pal's patented motion detector can scan up to 20 pages per minute in a
bound book. Just turn a page in your book and wait for the shutter sound.
After you hear the shutter sound turn the page again. It's that easy. With a
single keystroke you can easily start and stop scanning or reading or get
the description of the page layout spoken as a sighted reader sees it. 



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From jlastar at comcast.net  Mon Aug  2 23:08:22 2010
From: jlastar at comcast.net (Jennifer Applegate)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:08:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1280682004.20809.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.12.1280682004.20809.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <000301cb3297$9f8a42c0$de9ec840$@net>

Does anyone know if the newer versions of jaws will open and read pdf
documents?  I am not able to do it with jaws 8.0.

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:00 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 1

Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to
	nabs-l at nfbnet.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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You can reach the person managing the list at
	nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. an idea for a 1 page braille display (Sarah Alawami)
   2. Re: an idea for a 1 page braille display (Jewel S.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:02:58 -0700
From: Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>
To: nabs list list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
Message-ID: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about 600
dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense trying
incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. Here is
the link to the article.

http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are the 2
emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.

accessibility at apple.com
and
info at senseg.com

Take care all.

S


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:16:05 -0400
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTinrZ04g9gBChzbUReowfWGT+sFr4=ZSSkjJHoc4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

There is a project here at North Carolina State University, headed by
a member of our local NFB group, developing a full-page refreshable
Braille display using, I believe, hydro power? Dr. Y, the inventor,
says they'll have one cell ready in about three years and then it'll
be no time at all before they have a full-page disaplay. I don't
remember how much they said it would be, but it's going to be around
4-6 or more years before it is out. Personally, from what Dr. Y has
told us, it will be well worth that wait!

Does anyone have a link to the information about this project? I
couldn't seem to find it. Justin, Brice, Shawn?

On 7/31/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about
600
>  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense trying
> incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. Here is
> the link to the article.
>
> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are the
2
> emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>
> accessibility at apple.com
> and
> info at senseg.com
>
> Take care all.
>
> S
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmai
l.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org


End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 1
*************************************



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Mon Aug  2 23:32:06 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 19:32:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 1
References: <mailman.12.1280682004.20809.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000301cb3297$9f8a42c0$de9ec840$@net>
Message-ID: <9FEC606066D74EDEA0C1C4F5EDDFDF55@hometwxakonvzn>

You should be able to get a verson of adobe reader accessible with Jaws.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jennifer Applegate" <jlastar at comcast.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 1


> Does anyone know if the newer versions of jaws will open and read pdf
> documents?  I am not able to do it with jaws 8.0.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:00 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: nabs-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 1
>
> Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. an idea for a 1 page braille display (Sarah Alawami)
>   2. Re: an idea for a 1 page braille display (Jewel S.)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 19:02:58 -0700
> From: Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com>
> To: nabs list list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
> Message-ID: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about 
> 600
> dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense trying
> incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. Here is
> the link to the article.
>
> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are the 
> 2
> emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>
> accessibility at apple.com
> and
> info at senseg.com
>
> Take care all.
>
> S
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 22:16:05 -0400
> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinrZ04g9gBChzbUReowfWGT+sFr4=ZSSkjJHoc4 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> There is a project here at North Carolina State University, headed by
> a member of our local NFB group, developing a full-page refreshable
> Braille display using, I believe, hydro power? Dr. Y, the inventor,
> says they'll have one cell ready in about three years and then it'll
> be no time at all before they have a full-page disaplay. I don't
> remember how much they said it would be, but it's going to be around
> 4-6 or more years before it is out. Personally, from what Dr. Y has
> told us, it will be well worth that wait!
>
> Does anyone have a link to the information about this project? I
> couldn't seem to find it. Justin, Brice, Shawn?
>
> On 7/31/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about
> 600
>>  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense trying
>> incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. Here is
>> the link to the article.
>>
>> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
>> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are 
>> the
> 2
>> emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>>
>> accessibility at apple.com
>> and
>> info at senseg.com
>>
>> Take care all.
>>
>> S
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmai
> l.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>
>
> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 46, Issue 1
> *************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From JFreeh at nfb.org  Tue Aug  3 01:39:05 2010
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:39:05 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Driver Challenge of the National Federation of the
 Blind Featured at NIWeek 2010
Message-ID: <auto-000162752742@mailfront2.g2host.com>


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE<?xml:namespace prefix = o 
ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

cdanielsen at nfb.org



Blind Driver Challenge of the National Federation of the Blind
Featured at NIWeek 2010



Austin, Texas (August 2, 2010): The Blind Driver 
Challenge of the National Federation of the Blind 
(NFB) is one of the new technological innovations 
that will be featured at this year’s NIWeek, held 
August 3–5.  Hosted by National Instruments (NI), 
NIWeek is the world’s leading graphical system 
design conference and exhibition, showcasing the 
latest developments in graphical system design, 
virtual instrumentation, and commercial 
technologies.  Dr. Dennis Hong of Virginia 
Polytechnic Institute and <?xml:namespace prefix 
= st1 ns = 
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" 
/>State University (Virginia Tech), College of 
Engineering will deliver a keynote presentation 
describing the work of the Virginia Tech/TORC 
team to create a nonvisual interface that will 
allow a blind person to drive an automobile independently.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National 
Federation of the Blind, said: “Building a 
nonvisual interface that will allow a blind 
person to operate an automobile independently and 
safely will expand the educational and employment 
opportunities of blind people.  We believe the 
technology that must be developed to make driving 
possible will offer opportunities for blind 
people to learn nonvisually in other areas; and 
in the process, we will learn more about how 
blind people perceive, gather, and manipulate 
information.  We believe that when this 
technology is fully developed, sighted people 
will also be able to operate their vehicles more 
safely and easily.  NIWeek provides us with an 
opportunity to highlight our Blind Driver 
Challenge and to encourage the developers of 
innovative technology to partner with us and make 
a car drivable by the blind a reality.”



Dr. Dennis Hong, director of the Robotics and 
Mechanisms Laboratory at Virginia Tech, said: 
“NIWeek is an excellent opportunity to showcase 
our work with the Blind Driver Challenge of the 
National Federation of the Blind, and to 
encourage other universities to accept the 
challenge.  As a professor, I have found that the 
Blind Driver Challenge is also a very important 
educational opportunity.  Last year we had twelve 
very talented undergraduate students working on 
our first prototype vehicle.  Throughout the 
project we teach all the fundamental theories of 
science, mathematics, and engineering, but this 
challenge was a fantastic chance for the students 
to apply all the things they learned to a 
real-life project.  I often ask my students, ‘How 
many opportunities in your lifetime do you have a 
chance to change the world?’  This is really a 
project that most people thought was impossible, 
but we are making the impossible possible.”



Ray Almgren, vice president of marketing for core 
platforms at National Instruments, said: 
“National Instruments is committed to providing 
tools that inspire engineers and scientists to 
improve the world.  Empowering students with the 
technology and training to solve the grand 
challenges facing society is at the core of this 
commitment.  We are thrilled that the Virginia 
Tech/TORC team is using National Instruments 
technology, including NI LabVIEW software and 
CompactRIO hardware, to create an interface for a 
blind-drivable vehicle that will literally change 
everyday life for the millions of blind and 
visually impaired Americans who cannot currently get behind the wheel.”



The National Federation of the Blind Jernigan 
Institute­the only research and training facility 
on blindness operated by the blind­has challenged 
universities, technology developers, and other 
interested innovators to establish NFB Blind 
Driver Challenge (BDC) teams, in collaboration 
with the NFB, to build interface technologies 
that will empower blind people to drive a car 
independently.  The purpose of the NFB Blind 
Driver Challenge is to stimulate the development 
of nonvisual interface technology.  The Virginia 
Tech/TORC team, under the direction of Dr. Dennis 
Hong, Director of the Robotics and Mechanisms 
Laboratory at Virginia Tech., is the only team 
that has accepted the challenge.  The team is 
currently working with the National Federation of 
the Blind on the second-generation prototype 
vehicle to integrate new and improved versions of 
the first-generation nonvisual interface technologies into a Ford Escape.



The NIWeek conference will be held August 3­–5, 
at the Austin Convention Center in Austin, Texas.



For more information about the National 
Federation of the Blind, please visit 
www.nfb.org.  For our digital news release about 
the Blind Driver Challenge and the planned debut 
of the BDC car at the Rolex 24, including audio 
and video clips for television and radio, please 
visit www.DigitalNewsRelease.com/?q=NFB_CarKit.







###





About the National Federation of the Blind



With more than 50,000 members, the National 
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most 
influential membership organization of blind 
people in the United States.  The NFB improves 
blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, 
research, technology, and programs encouraging 
independence and self-confidence.  It is the 
leading force in the blindness field today and 
the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 
the NFB opened the National Federation of the 
Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and 
training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind.



CompactRIO, LabVIEW, National Instruments, NI and 
NIWeek are trademarks of National Instruments. 
Other product and company names listed are 
trademarks or trade names of their respective companies.


__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, 
version of virus signature database 5335 (20100802) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

<http://www.eset.com>http://www.eset.com

From jbahm at pcdesk.net  Tue Aug  3 04:02:57 2010
From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger)
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 22:02:57 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about LaTeX and accessibility for blind people
Message-ID: <4C5794F1.2060304@pcdesk.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Good evening folks,
The subject says it all. I'm exploring the use of the LaTeX typesetting
system. I can use it to generate math equations and the like, but if i
do so it's not accessible once I generate the final product. That's fine
as far as writing goes, since I have the source I know what it says.
However, I'd rather not contribute to the problems we already face where
blindness and access to this sort of information is concerned. So, can
anyone provide me with information on formatting these types of
documents so they're accessible? Can it even be done? Even making it so
the LaTeX source appears for the blind where the equations would go for
the sighted would be a good thing.

Also, I've noticed that when using pdflatex from the texlive-latex
package under Linux, the resulting document appears to have one word per
line when read by Window-Eyes and adobe Acrobat. I can tell you visually
that it appears correctly on screen though. I see this as another
potential access problem. Any clue how to fix that? Using latex2rtf and
hevea for generating rtf and html result in documents that don't have
this property and can be read just fine, save for the problems with
equations which I've already discussed.

If I had to, I could always provide LaTeX source along side what ever
other formats I offer for my own work. However, in the case of
publishing and that it may not always be an option to do so. So I'm
exploring my options. LaTeX is one that math and computer scientists
seem to use heavily, so that's the obvious choice if I can make it work.
- -- 
They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
$ ar m God
ar: creating God
There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
really does exist!
Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
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=Jc3/
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From spangler.robert at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 15:22:07 2010
From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 11:22:07 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Knowing your Books in Advance
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikW5ioVLbm91r_hJMqS_9NJM4AuwHW1B-kdvHzo@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DBBAF908B0B14173867962C83EC0594C@jage>
	<C4181079C4F24C19B916941852065BDB@AnitaAdkinsPC>
	<AANLkTikW5ioVLbm91r_hJMqS_9NJM4AuwHW1B-kdvHzo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfidmFU4jTqxDxAoHOOhx6L5mCx0mN6mA8ueM1@mail.gmail.com>

As far as I know, the CourseSmart site is still inaccessible unless
there have been enhancements of which I am unaware.


On 8/1/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> In contrast, I know of only two of my four books for class. I know
> them because I talked directly to the professors for the classes.
> However, the professor for the third never replied to my inquiries,
> and the fourth is either a new or temporary professor or from another
> university, and so no one knows his/her information. I don't even know
> if the professor is male or female! The others are all female, and I
> do better with female professors, so I hope the fourth is female also.
> Anyway, it's two weeks until school starts and we still don't have the
> book information for two of the classes. The disability office needs
> at least two weeks to scan the books to make them Word documents to be
> accessible and add the alt tags for pictures. So, two of my books
> probably won't be available in accessible format until a week after
> classes start minimum. One is available from RFBD, though, and the
> Spanish book has been scanned up (was scanned by DSS before I even
> knew which book...the professor actually went to DSS and presented
> them with a copy that they could scan before I bought my own
> copy...now that's a nice professor!
>
> So, this new law will be helpful for me so I'm not struggling to get
> my books in time for classes. Thanks for the information!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/1/10, Anita Adkins <aadkins7 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Thanks for the info.  I do happen to know the titles/authors, etc. to most
>> of my textbooks for the upcoming semester.  I have been researching online
>> to see if the books are available in an ebook format, and I discovered
>> that
>> at least one of them is.  My concern is that the book, even if I obtain
>> the
>> online version, will not be accessible to me.  Acording to the website I
>> explored, it claims that books may not be accessible and to contact the
>> publisher, but that it was working toward making the books accessible.
>> Also, it did not mention that the books would be inaccessible to any
>> specific disability group, such as blindness.  I am emailing to see if
>> anyone on this list has experience with ebooks that are textbooks, and if
>> so, were you able to access or obtain JAWS scripts to allow you to access
>> the book.  Thank you.  Just FYI, the link I discovered is:
>> "Find your college textbook at low prices | CourseSmart"
>> http://www.coursesmart.com/search
>> Anita Adkins
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:03 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Knowing your Books in Advance
>>
>>
>>> There's a new law that may help out blind people who want to ensure they
>>> can get their books in an accessible format. This from Consumerist.
>>>
>>> Finding the best textbooks prices just got a whole lot easier now that
>>> colleges are
>>> required to provide students with a list of required textbooks when they
>>> register
>>> for classes. The requirement was mandated back in the 2008 as part of the
>>> Higher
>>> Education Opportunity Act, but only took effect this year.
>>> "
>>> Proponents say the law will give students more time to take advantage of
>>> textbook
>>> buy-back programs, book rentals and prices that are often lower online
>>> than in college
>>> bookstores. They expect it will also force professors to pay more
>>> attention to the
>>> cost of books they assign.
>>> "Until this year, many schools didn't give the book list until the week
>>> before classes,
>>> and you really had no choice but to head to the college bookstore," says
>>> Christine
>>> Frietchen, editor in chief of ConsumerSearch.com.
>>> J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
>>> A premier Code Factory, KNFB Reader, and Sendero distributor
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Robert Spangler
The University of Toledo
Student Senator - Administrative Affairs Committee Chair, College of
Arts and Sciences


From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Tue Aug  3 15:50:36 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 11:50:36 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about LaTeX and accessibility for
	blind	people
In-Reply-To: <4C5794F1.2060304@pcdesk.net>
References: <4C5794F1.2060304@pcdesk.net>
Message-ID: <20100803115036.bc6vwceqpogsc00s@webmail.utoronto.ca>

Hi Joseph,
You might want to direct your question to the Blind Math Mailing list;  
there are some LaTeX experts there and it's helped me a lot. I'll send  
the URL etc. once I find it again.
Sarah


Quoting "Joseph C. Lininger" <jbahm at pcdesk.net>:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> Good evening folks,
> The subject says it all. I'm exploring the use of the LaTeX typesetting
> system. I can use it to generate math equations and the like, but if i
> do so it's not accessible once I generate the final product. That's fine
> as far as writing goes, since I have the source I know what it says.
> However, I'd rather not contribute to the problems we already face where
> blindness and access to this sort of information is concerned. So, can
> anyone provide me with information on formatting these types of
> documents so they're accessible? Can it even be done? Even making it so
> the LaTeX source appears for the blind where the equations would go for
> the sighted would be a good thing.
>
> Also, I've noticed that when using pdflatex from the texlive-latex
> package under Linux, the resulting document appears to have one word per
> line when read by Window-Eyes and adobe Acrobat. I can tell you visually
> that it appears correctly on screen though. I see this as another
> potential access problem. Any clue how to fix that? Using latex2rtf and
> hevea for generating rtf and html result in documents that don't have
> this property and can be read just fine, save for the problems with
> equations which I've already discussed.
>
> If I had to, I could always provide LaTeX source along side what ever
> other formats I offer for my own work. However, in the case of
> publishing and that it may not always be an option to do so. So I'm
> exploring my options. LaTeX is one that math and computer scientists
> seem to use heavily, so that's the obvious choice if I can make it work.
> - --
> They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
> $ ar m God
> ar: creating God
> There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
> really does exist!
> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
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> =Jc3/
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>





From nabs.president at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 17:53:09 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 11:53:09 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: FW: IMPORTANT: U.S. Department of State Disability
	Action Group (DAG) & Secretary's Office of Civil Rights
	(S/OCR) 2010-11 Event for Students with Disabilities!!!
	(Invitation Attached in MS Word)
In-Reply-To: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B02E4A85B@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>
References: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B02E4A85B@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinn_NDToLvpQtMJhBJHckyvuhH=Hq+QhRzK=q1B@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Wilson, Joanne" <JWilson at nfb.org>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 10:18:02 -0400
Subject: FW: IMPORTANT: U.S. Department of State Disability Action
Group (DAG) & Secretary's Office of Civil Rights (S/OCR) 2010-11 Event
for Students with Disabilities!!! (Invitation Attached in MS Word)
To: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>

Arielle,



This might be an item you want to circulate to undergrad and grad
students.



Best,



Joanne Wilson

Executive Director of Affiliate Action

National Federation of the Blind

200 East Wells Street

Baltimore, MD 21230

410.659.9314 x 2335

(F) 410.659.6893

jwilson at nfb.org

"Voice of the Nation's Blind"

________________________________

From: Schafer, Paul P [mailto:SchaferPP at state.gov]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 10:50 AM
To: Christy Willis; Renee DeVigne; swillemin at towson.edu;
mwiedefeld at loyola.edu; ashurson at loyola.edu; phayeslip at jhu.edu;
sanders at jhu.edu; klr5 at georgetown.edu; holahajf at georgetown.edu;
benica at american.edu; demillew at american.edu; singere at cua.edu;
patricia.tesar at gallaudet.edu; anne.aichele at marymount.edu;
koppenheimer at towson.edu; arthur.roehrig at gallaudet.edu; Wilson, Joanne
Cc: Faggart, Crystal D
Subject: IMPORTANT: U.S. Department of State Disability Action Group
(DAG) & Secretary's Office of Civil Rights (S/OCR) 2010-11 Event for
Students with Disabilities!!! (Invitation Attached in MS Word)
Importance: High



<<DAG Event 2010-11 Invite Letter.docx>> Dear Colleagues,

Please read the attached MS Word doc as soon as possible, and let us
(i.e., me and Crystal) know if you have any questions.

        Thanks and Live Well! ---Paul, Disability Action Group (DAG)
Council Administrator (Chair)

*******************

Paul P. Schafer,

Information Technology (IT) Specialist & Assistant Section 508
Coordinator

IRM/BMP/GRP/SM

Strategic Sourcing, IMPACT, and IT CCB Management Team

"Working to serve you!"

U.S. Department of State, SA3

2121 Virginia Avenue N.W., RM 4148

Washington, D. C.  20037

Voice: 202.663.0223 (ext. 30223)

E-mail: schaferpp at state.gov <mailto:schaferpp at state.gov>




-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org
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From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 22:18:02 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 17:18:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
Message-ID: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone.

My name is Julie.  I am going into my second year of college.  I am
currently a double major in vocal performance and German.  In the fall
I will be taking a German culture class about Berlin.  This class is
about the history and culture of Berlin.  We will be reading several
novels, and the professor has emailed me to tell me that visual
material (movies with english or German subtitles, pictures, art work,
and arcatecture) are going to be a big part of the class.  I'm not
exactly sure what kind of accomidations I should ask for in this
class.
I am an auditory learner, but movies in German classes have always
been difficult for me to folow.  She suggested giving me a copy of the
movie to watch on my own time instead of in class, but I'm not sure
how that would help.

As for the various kinds of art work and photo material, I really
don't know.  If we are doing something about arcatecture, I'll just
ask if I can read about it instead of looking at it, but beyond that,
Ihave no clue.  Makes me wonder how I've survived until now.  Lol!

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Tue Aug  3 22:45:48 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 18:45:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <322CE62C79594295A3AF3B4031F21987@AnitaAdkinsPC>

It would be great if you could find a student fluent in German to provide 
you with audio descriptions of the movies in a similar way to an 
audiodescribed movie.  Maybe, someone who has previously taken the class or 
someone taking the class while you are taking it would work for this, and 
the Disability Service may be able to hire this person as a notetaker or 
whatever the red tape requires this individual to be titled.  Pictures and 
the like could be described in audio most likely by this person or another 
person in the Disability center at your school.  The challenge will be to 
find an individual who can both speak German and provide excellent audio 
descriptions of the material.  Some artwork can also be produced tactually 
using a raised line drawing kit.  The Braille Bookstore has a great board 
with a screen backing that allows the lines being drawn to be raised so that 
they can be felt, and this might be an option aside from the raised line 
drawing kit because it uses regular paper.  I have one of these boards, and 
they are only around 14 dollars, I think.  I realize this will probably not 
be a perfect sollution since it will be impossible to recreate difficult 
artwork, but I am brainstorming.  The Braille Bookstore's web address is:
www.braillebookstore.com
Another idea might be to have a English/German speaking scribe reproduce the 
German as is, and then you could translate it once it has been read to you 
in German as this would also give you practice translating from one language 
to the other.  The best sollution might be to have the movies analyzed and 
produced in an accessible format with audio descriptions and such prior to 
the start of your semester, but I fear this may not be able to occur.  Just 
some ideas to get others thinking.  Anita

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 6:18 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall


> Hi everyone.
>
> My name is Julie.  I am going into my second year of college.  I am
> currently a double major in vocal performance and German.  In the fall
> I will be taking a German culture class about Berlin.  This class is
> about the history and culture of Berlin.  We will be reading several
> novels, and the professor has emailed me to tell me that visual
> material (movies with english or German subtitles, pictures, art work,
> and arcatecture) are going to be a big part of the class.  I'm not
> exactly sure what kind of accomidations I should ask for in this
> class.
> I am an auditory learner, but movies in German classes have always
> been difficult for me to folow.  She suggested giving me a copy of the
> movie to watch on my own time instead of in class, but I'm not sure
> how that would help.
>
> As for the various kinds of art work and photo material, I really
> don't know.  If we are doing something about arcatecture, I'll just
> ask if I can read about it instead of looking at it, but beyond that,
> Ihave no clue.  Makes me wonder how I've survived until now.  Lol!
>
> Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Tue Aug  3 23:10:05 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 19:10:05 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
References: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5353451DE074A84860F3FA717CFF6AC@Espy>

Hi Julie: I majored in Secondary Education focusing in Spanish and Modern 
Languages, concentrating in Spanish and German. My instructors in my classes 
were good enough to either:
1. Sit and describe the movie to me (in English) and let me take the movie 
home to decifer the German.
2. Work with me one on one if I had difficulties understanding something. 
They would also describe any artwork or visual things that came up in class. 
My professors were my friends-- they enjoyed having me and my dog in class 
and were always willing to help. I'd always go in early for a meeting so 
they could get to know my dog and me.
I wish you luck in your German class this Fall. If you have any more 
questions, please don't hesitate to bring them to the list. I've found 
everyone here extremely helpful.
Sincerely,
Hope Paulos
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 6:18 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall


> Hi everyone.
>
> My name is Julie.  I am going into my second year of college.  I am
> currently a double major in vocal performance and German.  In the fall
> I will be taking a German culture class about Berlin.  This class is
> about the history and culture of Berlin.  We will be reading several
> novels, and the professor has emailed me to tell me that visual
> material (movies with english or German subtitles, pictures, art work,
> and arcatecture) are going to be a big part of the class.  I'm not
> exactly sure what kind of accomidations I should ask for in this
> class.
> I am an auditory learner, but movies in German classes have always
> been difficult for me to folow.  She suggested giving me a copy of the
> movie to watch on my own time instead of in class, but I'm not sure
> how that would help.
>
> As for the various kinds of art work and photo material, I really
> don't know.  If we are doing something about arcatecture, I'll just
> ask if I can read about it instead of looking at it, but beyond that,
> Ihave no clue.  Makes me wonder how I've survived until now.  Lol!
>
> Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 5338 (20100803) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5338 (20100803) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Tue Aug  3 23:30:24 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:30:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] a interesting opportunity for those who are writers and
	have a study abroad opportunity to share
Message-ID: <731495.75935.qm@web53804.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Thought this would be of interest to some.

$50 Offered for Stories on International Exchange Experiences

Due September 1.

If you are a person with a disability and have either studied, worked or volunteered abroad, the National Clearinghouse on Disability and Exchange (NCDE)
would like to hear from you.

There are three different ways to share:  



Personal Essay - NCDE's submission guidelines and writing tips are in a downloadable writing guidelines Word document. NCDE can post the personal essay on the Stories & Blogs web page and/or edit it and help to locate a publication to submit it to.

Blog - Please refer to this online resource Blogs: Steps on How Exchange Travelers with Disabilities Can Create a Blog  for more information about what
we are looking for in a blog submission. You can send the link to add to NCDE's website by filling out the online Become a Blogger submission form linked
from this page.

Featured Person Profile - If you want to be a featured person on the NCDE website and are willing to have peers contact you for advice about going abroad,
then you can fill out the online Form to Become a Featured Person.

Examples of personal essays, blogs and featured people profiles on the above web links will give a sense of the type of experiences NCDE includes. Personal
essays should:

Be between 750-1000 words in length, 

Include the author's 50 word biography
Include two captioned photos. 
NCDE staff is happy to engage in a collaborative writing process with authors, and will edit all articles. If you want further direction in your writing
or would like to submit a story for editing, email clearinghouse at miusa.org.

Requirements:

Submissions must come from people with disabilities residing in the United States, which includes people from other countries currently having an international
exchange experience in the United States.

Submissions are due by Wednesday, September 1, 2010. 

People whose stories, blogs and featured person profiles are accepted will be sent a form to submit by September 15 to receive the $50.

People will be provided only one payment of $50 regardless of if they submit more than one of the essays, blogs, and featured person forms.

International experiences must entail work, study, volunteer, or research abroad. 
Submissions must come from people with disabilities. A person with a disability is a person who has a physical or mental impairment that substantially
limits one or more major life activities including anxiety, arthritis, asperger's, attention deficit disorder, bipolar disorder, deafblindness, diabetes,
dyslexia, HIV, lupus, multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, etc.
NCDE looks forward to receiving submissions by September 1, 2010 to be considered for the $50.  Inquiries may be sent to clearinghouse at miusa.org or via
telephone or TTY at (541) 343-1284. The NCDE is administered by Mobility International USA and sponsored by the U.S. Department of State.


I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


      


From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 00:01:55 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 19:01:55 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
References: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <637E486C5B2047C1BB4FAD53F1B7ABC0@D3DTZP41>

Hello Julie:

     I suggest you find an upper class student who has gone through this 
course to serve as a reader. Depending on the city where you are, you might 
be able to find a native German speaker who could also help you. Contact the 
NLS. They have some materials in German, and ought to be able to point you 
to where you could find more German materials. You might even try contacting 
a German consolate if your city has one. I rarely advocate putting an ad in 
a paper for a reader, but this might be a good reason to do it. Depending on 
where you are, you might find a church catering to a German speaking 
congregation such as Lutherans. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 5:18 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall


> Hi everyone.
>
> My name is Julie.  I am going into my second year of college.  I am
> currently a double major in vocal performance and German.  In the fall
> I will be taking a German culture class about Berlin.  This class is
> about the history and culture of Berlin.  We will be reading several
> novels, and the professor has emailed me to tell me that visual
> material (movies with english or German subtitles, pictures, art work,
> and arcatecture) are going to be a big part of the class.  I'm not
> exactly sure what kind of accomidations I should ask for in this
> class.
> I am an auditory learner, but movies in German classes have always
> been difficult for me to folow.  She suggested giving me a copy of the
> movie to watch on my own time instead of in class, but I'm not sure
> how that would help.
>
> As for the various kinds of art work and photo material, I really
> don't know.  If we are doing something about arcatecture, I'll just
> ask if I can read about it instead of looking at it, but beyond that,
> Ihave no clue.  Makes me wonder how I've survived until now.  Lol!
>
> Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 



From freethaught at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 00:32:23 2010
From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:32:23 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>

Before we get all excited about Sarai's link, and company, project, I would 
ask if anyone has seen a prototype.

Ideas are great, but realistic ones are worth one's pursuit and energy.

If there really were the one page display for less than the cost of a used 
car, it would be out already. I don't think adaptive technology companies 
could keep the developments from unfolding right under our fingers.

Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies and 
fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable 
solutions.

Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.

Student, Western Governors University
(617) 744-9716
Eastern time zone
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sarah Alawami" <marrie12 at gmail.com>
To: "nabs list list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:02 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display


> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about 
> 600  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense 
> trying incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. 
> Here is the link to the article.
>
> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are the 
> 2 emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>
> accessibility at apple.com
> and
> info at senseg.com
>
> Take care all.
>
> S
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
> 



From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 00:38:54 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 17:38:54 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
In-Reply-To: <BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
Message-ID: <4C58B69E.4040608@gmail.com>

  Hello Antonio and all,

I am working to do a more complete investigation of the Senseg 
technology to see how it might actually be applicable to Braille and/or 
other forms of tactile feedback for us.

Stay tuned.

On 8/3/2010 5:32 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote:
> Before we get all excited about Sarai's link, and company, project, I 
> would ask if anyone has seen a prototype.
>
> Ideas are great, but realistic ones are worth one's pursuit and energy.
>
> If there really were the one page display for less than the cost of a 
> used car, it would be out already. I don't think adaptive technology 
> companies could keep the developments from unfolding right under our 
> fingers.
>
> Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies 
> and fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for 
> unviable solutions.
>
> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>
> Student, Western Governors University
> (617) 744-9716
> Eastern time zone
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" <marrie12 at gmail.com>
> To: "nabs list list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:02 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
>
>
>> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost 
>> about 600  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called 
>> ESense trying incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even 
>> an IPhone. Here is the link to the article.
>>
>> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
>> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here 
>> are the 2 emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>>
>> accessibility at apple.com
>> and
>> info at senseg.com
>>
>> Take care all.
>>
>> S
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com 
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com 
>



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 01:26:50 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 21:26:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
In-Reply-To: <BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
Message-ID: <B1D5DC2D67AD4AB884BD07B212CCE6B3@Rufus>

I thought Dean Blazie was already investigating this idea?  Me, I like it,
but if there's already so much upkeep with keeping one row of cells clean, I
can't begin to imagine how much labor would need to go into repairing one
cell or section of the display.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 8:32 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display

Before we get all excited about Sarai's link, and company, 
project, I would 
ask if anyone has seen a prototype.

Ideas are great, but realistic ones are worth one's pursuit and energy.

If there really were the one page display for less than the 
cost of a used 
car, it would be out already. I don't think adaptive technology 
companies 
could keep the developments from unfolding right under our fingers.

Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better 
technologies and 
fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable 
solutions.

Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.

Student, Western Governors University
(617) 744-9716
Eastern time zone
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sarah Alawami" <marrie12 at gmail.com>
To: "nabs list list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:02 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display


> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that 
cost about 
> 600  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense 
> trying incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even 
an IPhone. 
> Here is the link to the article.
>
> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. 
Here are the 
> 2 emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>
> accessibility at apple.com
> and
> info at senseg.com
>
> Take care all.
>
> S
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethau
ght%40gmail.com
> 


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 01:29:47 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 21:29:47 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
Message-ID: <21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>

Dear all,

Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
something.  Antonio said:

"Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies and 
fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
solutions.

I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project devoted to
cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally missed
it, but what do people generally think about it?

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us  Wed Aug  4 02:50:12 2010
From: David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us (Andrews,
	David B B (DEED))
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:50:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] UCLA Eye Study Seeks Volunteers
Message-ID: <auto-000165417625@mailfront1.g2host.com>

We have been asked to circulate the following:

David Andrews

The Jules Stein Eye Institute at University of California, Los 
Angeles is seeking clinical research volunteers. Dr. Michael B. Gorin 
is conducting a nationwide study of genetic and other risk factors 
that contribute to the development of age-related macular 
degeneration (also known as Age-Related Maculopathy). Individuals or 
members of their family may be eligible to participate in this 
observational study (this is not a treatment trial) which does not 
require that individuals travel to UCLA, but allows individuals to 
participate through a confidential and secure website. Individuals 
will be required to give 1 saliva sample or have their blood drawn 
(20 ml). Photographs of the retina will be covered by the study.

The study is looking for:
    * Individuals from 49 to 65 years old who have/had a least one 
parent with macular degeneration. Spouses or partners will be included.
    * The parent(s) who have Age-Related Macular degeneration or have 
a first-degree relative with the disease (siblings).

If an individual wishes to learn more about this study, they can go 
to the following website and read about the study with complete 
anonymity (and even send questions to the research coordinators).

<https://jseiclinres.jsei.ucla.edu/garm/>https://jseiclinres.jsei.ucla.edu/garm/ 


UCLA IRB Number: 08-11-008-02
Expiration Date: June 22, 2011

Feel free to contact me or one of our research coordinators TOLL-FREE 
at 1(800)286-8581 for more information.
-- 
Carlos Carballo
Clinical Research Coordinator
Retinal Disorders and Ophthalmic Genetics Division
David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
Jules Stein Eye Institute
100 Stein Plaza, DS-2-545
Los Angeles, CA 90095-7000
Phone:  (310)794-1250
Fax:        (310)794-5701
<https://jseiclinres.jsei.ucla.edu/garm/>https://jseiclinres.jsei.ucla.edu/garm/
<carballo at jsei.ucla.htm>carballo at jsei.ucla.edu

IMPORTANT WARNING:  This email (and any attachments) is only intended 
for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed, and may 
contain information that is privileged and confidential.  You, the 
recipient, are obligated to maintain it in a safe, secure and 
confidential manner.  Unauthorized re-disclosure or failure to 
maintain confidentiality may subject you to federal and state 
penalties. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately 
notify us by return email, and delete this message from your computer.
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From freethaught at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 04:03:19 2010
From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 00:03:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com><BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
	<B1D5DC2D67AD4AB884BD07B212CCE6B3@Rufus>
Message-ID: <7D0A6C6744E84579B1626ACCB16E1779@userf9b4fa60eb>

Dean Blazie is involved with the work to take place at National Braille 
Press to develop the braille display, but I can tell you with certainty and 
it is public knowledge that the project will yield a lower cost note-taker 
at first. They are talking prototypes for one with similar capabilities of 
the ones we're used to already, but at a price in the ball park of $2000, 
not $6000 we're used to.

That would be a start, and the goal according to NBP's president Brian 
MacDonald would be for the team to develop and deploy technology to create a 
low cost, full page braille display.

Let's see how they do.

Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.

Student, Western Governors University
(617) 744-9716
Eastern time zone
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display


>I thought Dean Blazie was already investigating this idea?  Me, I like it,
> but if there's already so much upkeep with keeping one row of cells clean, 
> I
> can't begin to imagine how much labor would need to go into repairing one
> cell or section of the display.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 8:32 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
>
> Before we get all excited about Sarai's link, and company,
> project, I would
> ask if anyone has seen a prototype.
>
> Ideas are great, but realistic ones are worth one's pursuit and energy.
>
> If there really were the one page display for less than the
> cost of a used
> car, it would be out already. I don't think adaptive technology
> companies
> could keep the developments from unfolding right under our fingers.
>
> Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better
> technologies and
> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
> solutions.
>
> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
>
> Student, Western Governors University
> (617) 744-9716
> Eastern time zone
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sarah Alawami" <marrie12 at gmail.com>
> To: "nabs list list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:02 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
>
>
>> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that
> cost about
>> 600  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense
>> trying incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even
> an IPhone.
>> Here is the link to the article.
>>
>> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
>> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too.
> Here are the
>> 2 emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>>
>> accessibility at apple.com
>> and
>> info at senseg.com
>>
>> Take care all.
>>
>> S
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethau
> ght%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
> 



From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Wed Aug  4 09:47:31 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 05:47:31 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about LaTeX and accessibility for
	blind	people
In-Reply-To: <20100803115036.bc6vwceqpogsc00s@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <4C5794F1.2060304@pcdesk.net>
	<20100803115036.bc6vwceqpogsc00s@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <20100804054731.baggb71ehw8swg4w@webmail.utoronto.ca>

Hi again,
Here's the BlindMath Mailing list homepage.

http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org

hth,
Sarah


Quoting sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca:

> Hi Joseph,
> You might want to direct your question to the Blind Math Mailing list;
> there are some LaTeX experts there and it's helped me a lot. I'll send
> the URL etc. once I find it again.
> Sarah
>
>
> Quoting "Joseph C. Lininger" <jbahm at pcdesk.net>:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA256
>>
>> Good evening folks,
>> The subject says it all. I'm exploring the use of the LaTeX typesetting
>> system. I can use it to generate math equations and the like, but if i
>> do so it's not accessible once I generate the final product. That's fine
>> as far as writing goes, since I have the source I know what it says.
>> However, I'd rather not contribute to the problems we already face where
>> blindness and access to this sort of information is concerned. So, can
>> anyone provide me with information on formatting these types of
>> documents so they're accessible? Can it even be done? Even making it so
>> the LaTeX source appears for the blind where the equations would go for
>> the sighted would be a good thing.
>>
>> Also, I've noticed that when using pdflatex from the texlive-latex
>> package under Linux, the resulting document appears to have one word per
>> line when read by Window-Eyes and adobe Acrobat. I can tell you visually
>> that it appears correctly on screen though. I see this as another
>> potential access problem. Any clue how to fix that? Using latex2rtf and
>> hevea for generating rtf and html result in documents that don't have
>> this property and can be read just fine, save for the problems with
>> equations which I've already discussed.
>>
>> If I had to, I could always provide LaTeX source along side what ever
>> other formats I offer for my own work. However, in the case of
>> publishing and that it may not always be an option to do so. So I'm
>> exploring my options. LaTeX is one that math and computer scientists
>> seem to use heavily, so that's the obvious choice if I can make it work.
>> - --
>> They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
>> $ ar m God
>> ar: creating God
>> There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
>> really does exist!
>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
>>
>> iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJMV5TxAAoJEMh8jNraUiwqFcgIAKqIPSdEtLc4ZvTm3YFTxlxp
>> Ry/e6B0KnHQRyatnJ3GMflaZK0vnxZk69k5TjH7gCJEChLi9TjKt01KPWpQN5mYA
>> /EzRzvZFVBHNr2UJVJvBMJn6oDba/eZP3Ay9JVIm2aLdkwehZDZzglbWFaQ8GrVf
>> BiBEfRbyPo07ssQsSHOrJBL/BOhe05rOZ32Jy7vccKFBDd0h+Y3MRlJCtUxiO8+l
>> Vyx17p+jSENwlZUq5AIDce8xRhYs9nvnLjb27knbuKlgSYb3RAgwgtPvTTDfwlpM
>> Xl8TkOJUKNdUWTE0SFYcSiNVKiLl2XHYAadw2STAQqHhc6fOgDvuDlWjLhkL5pU=
>> =Jc3/
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca





From jbahm at pcdesk.net  Wed Aug  4 15:09:23 2010
From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 09:09:23 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about LaTeX and accessibility
	for	blind	people
In-Reply-To: <20100804054731.baggb71ehw8swg4w@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <4C5794F1.2060304@pcdesk.net>	<20100803115036.bc6vwceqpogsc00s@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<20100804054731.baggb71ehw8swg4w@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <4C5982A3.5060605@pcdesk.net>

Sarah,
Thank you. I've posted my  question there. Of course you probably
already know that seeing in how you're on that list. wink
-- 
They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
$ ar m God
ar: creating God
There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
really does exist!
Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>

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From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 15:25:17 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:25:17 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Reminder: Nabs membership conference call sunday!
Message-ID: <AANLkTin0VMx2tmirYTudvvaHOEykKY=vmam_fiu25DzD@mail.gmail.com>

Happy Summer Fellow Students!

  We hope   that wherever your travels took / are taking you enable
you to gain enjoyment and excitement.     For all of you that were
able to join us in Dallas, thank you for sharing in another great
convention.  For those who were there in spirit; thank you for doing
just that and we are excited to get to see you in Orlando next year!
 But, enough about the past and the future; we’re here now in the
present, and as you all know, there’s a lot of work and exciting
things to get done!  With that, your nabs board is getting ready for
another great year working with and serving you.
 As you probably know by now, the national Association of Blind
Students operates year-round via its board of directors; many of us
co-chair committees that are vital to the success of the division.
 On Sunday, August 8 at 7 p.m. eastern time
We will be holding a conference call   that we would like to invite
all of you, our fellow students, to attend.   On this call, we will
introduce the    various committees we have, what these committees do,
and the board members who chair them.  It is at this call where we are
looking for any of  you  who have a   wit for websites,  feel for
fundraising,  eye for editing and writing or a mind for  membership
building who might have that itch to join a committee.  Maybe you have
an idea for a committee? Bring that too!
  We would appreciate your attendance, encourage your sharing of
suggestions and ideas, but more than that, welcome your participation
in all of our committees!
 So, come and join us, work with us, let us get to know each other and
how we can change what it means to be a blind student together!

 Information:
 What: Getting to know the Nabs Committees
When: Sunday, August 8. 7 p.m. EST.
How:  Call-in at 712.775.7100 (pass code 257963)
 Or listen via www.nabslinkaudio.org

 Thank you and we look forward to getting to know and work with you all.
  With warm regards,
  The committees of the national association of blind students


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Wed Aug  4 16:28:25 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 09:28:25 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs
Message-ID: <2A68138AF98646188ADE8BD94510DD5F@stanford.edu>

Can someone email me off list with instructions on how to use Google docs with JAWS?

Thanks,
Nicole

From liamskitten at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 16:42:11 2010
From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 11:42:11 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs
In-Reply-To: <2A68138AF98646188ADE8BD94510DD5F@stanford.edu>
References: <2A68138AF98646188ADE8BD94510DD5F@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimbW_X3q_k1xpwLCs0e9Fcn+=Sf8GeZeQ5brA9O@mail.gmail.com>

Nicole,

If you receive such instructions, would you pass them on to me?  I can
be reached off list at liamskitten at gmail.com.
Courtney

On 8/4/10, Nicole B. Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Can someone email me off list with instructions on how to use Google docs
> with JAWS?
>
> Thanks,
> Nicole
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com
>


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 16:51:59 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 12:51:59 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
In-Reply-To: <637E486C5B2047C1BB4FAD53F1B7ABC0@D3DTZP41>
References: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>
	<637E486C5B2047C1BB4FAD53F1B7ABC0@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=6M_90PY+4TsmmR2vnyUDavftfFj9bT2m35U=T@mail.gmail.com>

Julie,

A German-speaking describer would be nice, but I don't think it's
necessary...after all, are the other students required to think in
German when watching the movie? I know that that is what is wanted to
happen eventually, but an English description of the goings-on in the
movie, reading of subtitles, etc. would be equally good, I think. Here
in Raleigh, we have a group called Arts Access of Raleigh, INc. They
are a group of live audio describers who mainly do descriptions at
plays, movies at the local museums, and the like. Do you know if you
have a group like this? If you tell me what university you attend, I
might be able to find soemthing for you...I know Arts Access will be a
great reference for me when it comes to needing someone to describe
videos for classes. This is something your school should provide as an
accommodation. Live description would be best, because the person can
describe things and ifyou don't understand, they can try to describe
better. With live description, you can also watch the video again
without description. You can also record the describer's reading to
re-play later, pausing it with the movie.



On 8/3/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hello Julie:
>
>      I suggest you find an upper class student who has gone through this
> course to serve as a reader. Depending on the city where you are, you might
> be able to find a native German speaker who could also help you. Contact the
> NLS. They have some materials in German, and ought to be able to point you
> to where you could find more German materials. You might even try contacting
> a German consolate if your city has one. I rarely advocate putting an ad in
> a paper for a reader, but this might be a good reason to do it. Depending on
> where you are, you might find a church catering to a German speaking
> congregation such as Lutherans. Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 5:18 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
>
>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> My name is Julie.  I am going into my second year of college.  I am
>> currently a double major in vocal performance and German.  In the fall
>> I will be taking a German culture class about Berlin.  This class is
>> about the history and culture of Berlin.  We will be reading several
>> novels, and the professor has emailed me to tell me that visual
>> material (movies with english or German subtitles, pictures, art work,
>> and arcatecture) are going to be a big part of the class.  I'm not
>> exactly sure what kind of accomidations I should ask for in this
>> class.
>> I am an auditory learner, but movies in German classes have always
>> been difficult for me to folow.  She suggested giving me a copy of the
>> movie to watch on my own time instead of in class, but I'm not sure
>> how that would help.
>>
>> As for the various kinds of art work and photo material, I really
>> don't know.  If we are doing something about arcatecture, I'll just
>> ask if I can read about it instead of looking at it, but beyond that,
>> Ihave no clue.  Makes me wonder how I've survived until now.  Lol!
>>
>> Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
>> --
>> Julie McG
>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>> Eyes for the Blind
>>
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 18:12:31 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 12:12:31 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimbW_X3q_k1xpwLCs0e9Fcn+=Sf8GeZeQ5brA9O@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2A68138AF98646188ADE8BD94510DD5F@stanford.edu>
	<AANLkTimbW_X3q_k1xpwLCs0e9Fcn+=Sf8GeZeQ5brA9O@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F50EB5F517B4C8C9FE8042E894A5D8F@MarcPC>

As far as I can tell, the latest version of google docs cannot be used with 
JAWS.  I gather it used to be accessible but is no longer accessible.  If 
you do learn of a way to use google docs with JAWS, please let the list 
know.

Dropbox can be used as an alternative to google docs.  Though they function 
in quite different ways.  You may want to check it out.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Courtney Stover" <liamskitten at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Docs


> Nicole,
>
> If you receive such instructions, would you pass them on to me?  I can
> be reached off list at liamskitten at gmail.com.
> Courtney
>
> On 8/4/10, Nicole B. Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>> Can someone email me off list with instructions on how to use Google docs
>> with JAWS?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nicole
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 18:24:35 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 14:24:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs
In-Reply-To: <8F50EB5F517B4C8C9FE8042E894A5D8F@MarcPC>
References: <2A68138AF98646188ADE8BD94510DD5F@stanford.edu><AANLkTimbW_X3q_k1xpwLCs0e9Fcn+=Sf8GeZeQ5brA9O@mail.gmail.com>
	<8F50EB5F517B4C8C9FE8042E894A5D8F@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <C2226CF642DA464E89C6A44C5D6B40EF@Rufus>

I use Google Sync to manipulate Google Docs remotely, though I use the JAWS
cursor heavily on the web interface to set up and arrange files and folders.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 2:13 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Docs

As far as I can tell, the latest version of google docs cannot 
be used with 
JAWS.  I gather it used to be accessible but is no longer 
accessible.  If 
you do learn of a way to use google docs with JAWS, please let the list 
know.

Dropbox can be used as an alternative to google docs.  Though 
they function 
in quite different ways.  You may want to check it out.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Courtney Stover" <liamskitten at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Docs


> Nicole,
>
> If you receive such instructions, would you pass them on to me?  I can
> be reached off list at liamskitten at gmail.com.
> Courtney
>
> On 8/4/10, Nicole B. Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>> Can someone email me off list with instructions on how to 
use Google docs
>> with JAWS?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nicole
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskit
ten%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman
.lists%40gmail.com 


_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 20:14:49 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 14:14:49 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
	<21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com>

I think the race for independence is a great idea.  Will it end up
producing a car we can actually drive- who can say?  But I see nothing
wrong with trying.  I confess to being, even after convention, a bit
skeptical of a car that I could drive.  It sounds great on paper- but
that's a whole heck of a lot of technology to depend on.  (you're
talking cameras, laser sensors, and the interface to efficiently show
a blind driver everything a sighted person's brain unconsciously
processes in a matter of miliseconds)  I'm no expert, and I certainly
hope future developments prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's
going to work.  Does anyone have any information, other than what we
heard at onvention, about the specific technologies that could be
involved?  I'd be very interested.  Thanks and I appologize for the
rambling post.

On 8/3/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
> something.  Antonio said:
>
> "Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies and
> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
> solutions.
>
> I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project devoted to
> cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally missed
> it, but what do people generally think about it?
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 20:47:32 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 16:47:32 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about juggling 	multiple items)
Message-ID: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
hand something fierce!

Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!

My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
well.

I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
backpack or other items?

Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
falling often.

~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 21:14:08 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 17:14:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about juggling 	multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56BBDFE96A884ACCB903B854168AA607@Rufus>

Hi Jewel,

I don't know what you're planning on carrying from class to class, but a
notetaker should suffice.  If you're getting the Apex, this barely weighs
over a pound.  You may occasionally get handouts from your professors, but
this should not add a burden.  Hardly anyone carries books around since
you'll either be in labs or lectures, and most of your books should be
scanned or on CD anyway.  As for groceries and such, how are you dealing
with that now?  I would think that for a tip taxi drivers will help you
bring the bags into your home, if you don't have anyone to help you with
that already.  Good luck.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:48 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? 
(Question about juggling multiple items)

Hi everyone,

As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
hand something fierce!

Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!

My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
well.

I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
backpack or other items?

Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
falling often.

~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Wed Aug  4 21:14:18 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 17:14:18 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
 please? (Question about juggling 	multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9B00D1BB767A47EFBECFBE4741225877@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Hey,  Sounds like you need a horse.  lol.  I'm really at a loss.  What if 
you could somehow obtain a motorized scooter or wheelchair.  You could ride 
in it, use your cane to guide you, and have something on it that you could 
store your support cane and your backpack in.  Or, it may fit a bag or 
something that you could use to hold the items in your backpack.  I know you 
may not want to use such a system since you can walk, but I am just 
brainstorming.  At Blind Industries and Services of MD, I believe people 
with no vision have been taught to use a cane as they manuever a wheelchair, 
and you could certainly contact them at 1-888-3322-4567 and see if they have 
any suggestions.  Or, try calling an NFB training center to see if they have 
any recommendations  for you.  Some schools have lockers, and so maybe an 
idea would be to acquire lockers in each of your buildings where you could 
padlock your stuff and keep it there.  Or, could you take online classes? 
This way, you could be at class without needing to bring stuff to it.  Or, 
the Victor reader is very light.  Maybe, you could jus ttake it, record the 
class, and then listen to it and take notes when you arrive home.  The 
Victor can also play RFB&D files, and so you would have any books that are 
available through them with you.  Just suggestions.  Sorry I don't have a 
brilliant sollution for you.  Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:47 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about 
juggling multiple items)


> Hi everyone,
>
> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
> hand something fierce!
>
> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>
> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
> well.
>
> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
> backpack or other items?
>
> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
> falling often.
>
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 21:53:35 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 17:53:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <9B00D1BB767A47EFBECFBE4741225877@AnitaAdkinsPC>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B00D1BB767A47EFBECFBE4741225877@AnitaAdkinsPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=a=jGqmYAkWGuUygsE4-QehU_=fS_2n_5SfE_q@mail.gmail.com>

For groceries, I get my boyfriend to carry the bags in. He has no
problem with it. He says temporarily, he could pull my bag for me. In
my backpack will be:

1. Laptop
2. Seperate keyboard because a laptop keyboard cramps my hands badly
3. refreshable Braille display, a must since I do not do well
listening to a computer or book and a person
4. A small plastic folder for each class that has a velcro and can be
placed in the class's binder at home
5. index cards, Janus slate and stylus
6. voice recorder and/or VictorStream Reader. If I need to use the
Victor Stream for my book, I can't record class at the same time, so
need a voice recorder, which I just got (Olympus WS-400S, very small
and wonderful)
7. Braille notes, such as the class outlines, notes I've taken and
need to have at hand in class (verb conjugations, notes for a speech
in Communications class, etc)

No, I won't be carrying the books around every day. I will be rarely
carrying the print books when I meet with a reader or need some
clarification on something, but that will be seldom. However, the
laptop and accessories are already too heavy for me to carry on my
back or shoulder. Even just the laptop alone would be too much for me
to carry in this way, because a 15 inch laptop weighs 5 to 7 pounds. I
cannot carry that on my back or shoulder. I do not carry anything more
than a few pounds on my shoulder or back. When I go shopping, I bring
my rolling backpack to put things in, and Mike carries the rest
(boyfriend). If I am alone, the taxi driver will help me as they have
in the past and I tip. I never have the need to carry more than a few
pounds...the only exception is my cat, who is 7 pounds. She
distributes her weight between my hip and my shoulder (yes, she sits
on my hip like a baby with her front legs on my shoulder...everyone
thinks it is so adorable, but it is necessary). I have picked Mike's
dog up only once, and will not again...he's over twenty pounds, and my
back was out for the rest of the day.

I really do not want to have to use a motorized wheelchair/scooter. I
have been contemplating the need for one, and I know when I go to the
convention and to Disney next year, I will be renting a wheelchair,
but I really don't want to have to use one at school. A friend was
suggesting a walker that has a place to set a bag, but how would one
use a walker with a white cane (she's sighted)?

Unfortuantely, Wake Tech does not have lockers, so there goes that
idea...it was a good one, though, to have a locker in each building
(this semester, all but one of my classes are in one building), though
the things I need to carry around, I'll need for every class.

I will definitely try talking to Blind Industries and Services of MD,
as well as the Louisiana Center for the Blind and Blind, Inc. I am
hoping to come up with a better solution than using a wheelchair...I
have been fighting becoming a wheelchair user, even part-time, for
quite some time.

My boyfriend says a horse would be a great thing, if it didn't poop
and snort so much. He thinks a bull mastiff would be a better idea, or
a very large labrador retriever or some other strong dog. How about a
malamute or a Saint Brenard with a back harness and a wagon? I wish!
My boyfriend seems to think it would be a good option, but I think
it's just a wishful thought. He says if I got a malamute or husky,
maybe there'd be a way to hook the dog to my guide dog, the "lead dog"
and the pulling dog would pull the load while my guide dog lead the
way. I think it's a silly idea and wishful thinking, but what do you
guys think?

On 8/4/10, Anita Adkins <aadkins7 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Hey,  Sounds like you need a horse.  lol.  I'm really at a loss.  What if
> you could somehow obtain a motorized scooter or wheelchair.  You could ride
> in it, use your cane to guide you, and have something on it that you could
> store your support cane and your backpack in.  Or, it may fit a bag or
> something that you could use to hold the items in your backpack.  I know you
> may not want to use such a system since you can walk, but I am just
> brainstorming.  At Blind Industries and Services of MD, I believe people
> with no vision have been taught to use a cane as they manuever a wheelchair,
> and you could certainly contact them at 1-888-3322-4567 and see if they have
> any suggestions.  Or, try calling an NFB training center to see if they have
> any recommendations  for you.  Some schools have lockers, and so maybe an
> idea would be to acquire lockers in each of your buildings where you could
> padlock your stuff and keep it there.  Or, could you take online classes?
> This way, you could be at class without needing to bring stuff to it.  Or,
> the Victor reader is very light.  Maybe, you could jus ttake it, record the
> class, and then listen to it and take notes when you arrive home.  The
> Victor can also play RFB&D files, and so you would have any books that are
> available through them with you.  Just suggestions.  Sorry I don't have a
> brilliant sollution for you.  Anita
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:47 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
> juggling multiple items)
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>> hand something fierce!
>>
>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>
>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>> well.
>>
>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>> backpack or other items?
>>
>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>> falling often.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  4 22:15:03 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 17:15:03 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about juggling 	multiple items)
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41>

Hello Jewel:

     Some years ago, I heard of an electric golf cart that would follow a 
golfer around. The golfer wore a small device attached to his/her belt and 
the cart followed it. I have no clue if this type of device is still on the 
market. I'll check.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:47 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about 
juggling multiple items)


> Hi everyone,
>
> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
> hand something fierce!
>
> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>
> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
> well.
>
> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
> backpack or other items?
>
> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
> falling often.
>
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 



From beckyasabo at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 22:33:09 2010
From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (becky sabo)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 16:33:09 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] how to get involved on campus
Message-ID: <950AE1BF5FAB488482AB0595405ECC9E@BECKY1>

Dear Everyone,
I do not have allot of friends and I was wondering how do you get involved
on campus to make more friends?
If anyone has any suggestions I would like that a lot.
Sincerely 
Becky Sabo 

From brittney.urquhart at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 23:05:05 2010
From: brittney.urquhart at gmail.com (Brittney Urquhart)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:05:05 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] how to get involved on campus
In-Reply-To: <950AE1BF5FAB488482AB0595405ECC9E@BECKY1>
References: <950AE1BF5FAB488482AB0595405ECC9E@BECKY1>
Message-ID: <2F743CEE-1EE4-4773-9752-E9575184F321@gmail.com>

Hey Becky!
A great way to get involved on campus and meet new people is to join  
campus organizations and clubs. Try joining the Student Government  
Association or find out if your major has a club, I.e. Social Work Club.

Best Wishes,
Brittney


Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 4, 2010, at 5:33 PM, becky sabo <beckyasabo at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Everyone,
> I do not have allot of friends and I was wondering how do you get  
> involved
> on campus to make more friends?
> If anyone has any suggestions I would like that a lot.
> Sincerely
> Becky Sabo
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info  
> for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brittney.urquhart%40gmail.com


From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 23:20:48 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:20:48 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=6M_90PY+4TsmmR2vnyUDavftfFj9bT2m35U=T@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>
	<637E486C5B2047C1BB4FAD53F1B7ABC0@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTi=6M_90PY+4TsmmR2vnyUDavftfFj9bT2m35U=T@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=vwxM2fhGRVre8VAi5r69Kx9LxTcFmGB0UygV0@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Jewel and everyone else.  Jewel, I don't know if we have a
group like that in St. Louis.  I go to Webster University in St.
Louis, Mo.  I am going to email my professor with some of these ideas.
 I like the idea of a human describer.  One who would describe in
english.  I'm sure we aren't expected to think in German all the time.
 This has been really helpful.  I will talk to her and see what we can
do.

On 8/4/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Julie,
>
> A German-speaking describer would be nice, but I don't think it's
> necessary...after all, are the other students required to think in
> German when watching the movie? I know that that is what is wanted to
> happen eventually, but an English description of the goings-on in the
> movie, reading of subtitles, etc. would be equally good, I think. Here
> in Raleigh, we have a group called Arts Access of Raleigh, INc. They
> are a group of live audio describers who mainly do descriptions at
> plays, movies at the local museums, and the like. Do you know if you
> have a group like this? If you tell me what university you attend, I
> might be able to find soemthing for you...I know Arts Access will be a
> great reference for me when it comes to needing someone to describe
> videos for classes. This is something your school should provide as an
> accommodation. Live description would be best, because the person can
> describe things and ifyou don't understand, they can try to describe
> better. With live description, you can also watch the video again
> without description. You can also record the describer's reading to
> re-play later, pausing it with the movie.
>
>
>
> On 8/3/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hello Julie:
>>
>>      I suggest you find an upper class student who has gone through this
>> course to serve as a reader. Depending on the city where you are, you
>> might
>> be able to find a native German speaker who could also help you. Contact
>> the
>> NLS. They have some materials in German, and ought to be able to point you
>> to where you could find more German materials. You might even try
>> contacting
>> a German consolate if your city has one. I rarely advocate putting an ad
>> in
>> a paper for a reader, but this might be a good reason to do it. Depending
>> on
>> where you are, you might find a church catering to a German speaking
>> congregation such as Lutherans. Hope this helps.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 5:18 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
>>
>>
>>> Hi everyone.
>>>
>>> My name is Julie.  I am going into my second year of college.  I am
>>> currently a double major in vocal performance and German.  In the fall
>>> I will be taking a German culture class about Berlin.  This class is
>>> about the history and culture of Berlin.  We will be reading several
>>> novels, and the professor has emailed me to tell me that visual
>>> material (movies with english or German subtitles, pictures, art work,
>>> and arcatecture) are going to be a big part of the class.  I'm not
>>> exactly sure what kind of accomidations I should ask for in this
>>> class.
>>> I am an auditory learner, but movies in German classes have always
>>> been difficult for me to folow.  She suggested giving me a copy of the
>>> movie to watch on my own time instead of in class, but I'm not sure
>>> how that would help.
>>>
>>> As for the various kinds of art work and photo material, I really
>>> don't know.  If we are doing something about arcatecture, I'll just
>>> ask if I can read about it instead of looking at it, but beyond that,
>>> Ihave no clue.  Makes me wonder how I've survived until now.  Lol!
>>>
>>> Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
>>> --
>>> Julie McG
>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>
>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>> life."
>>> John 3:16
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 23:32:42 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:32:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=a=jGqmYAkWGuUygsE4-QehU_=fS_2n_5SfE_q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><9B00D1BB767A47EFBECFBE4741225877@AnitaAdkinsPC>
	<AANLkTi=a=jGqmYAkWGuUygsE4-QehU_=fS_2n_5SfE_q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3E0CD0FCDE054B0E9735DCD7ED16BF71@Rufus>

Jewel,

If I may ask, can you explain a little more about your hesitation to use a
wheelchair?  It sounds as though there will be no easy fix to your
circumstance, though I think you could probably reduce the number of things
you feel you need in your bag.  Regardless, even if you were to miraculously
lighten your load, I am sensing that it is difficult for you to get around
in general through no fault of your own.  Anyway, if you care to share,
enlighten us as to what would be so terrible about using a wheelchair as a
tool in much the same way you would currently use two separate canes.  It
does not seem as though you would always need a wheelchair.  You could pick
and choose the situations where the extra assistance would be of value, but
without an understanding of your situation, this is only a casual
observation.  You're certainly free to tell me to go to hell and not ask.
*grin*  I won't be offended.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Wed Aug  4 23:53:27 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 17:53:27 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <3E0CD0FCDE054B0E9735DCD7ED16BF71@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><9B00D1BB767A47EFBECFBE4741225877@AnitaAdkinsPC><AANLkTi=a=jGqmYAkWGuUygsE4-QehU_=fS_2n_5SfE_q@mail.gmail.com>
	<3E0CD0FCDE054B0E9735DCD7ED16BF71@Rufus>
Message-ID: <6A5E411B557149E897A7F3B6C3DE4A40@MarcPC>

I wondered about the reluctance to use a wheelchair as well.  It reminds me 
of the sort of reluctance some people have to using braille or a white cane. 
Some people resist using these tools because they will appear blind.  It 
might cause headaches and fatigue, and it might take much longer, but at 
least I am reading print rather than braille.  I might walk into the 
occasional poll, and I might trip over the occasional step, but at least I 
don't have to walk around with a white cane.  I would be surprised if people 
with mobility disabilities don't face the same struggles between trying to 
look normal and making use of tools that clearly mark them as different. 
Jewell, I no absolutely nothing about your motives, so please don't take 
this as me making presumptions about you.  I'm just noting the parallel.  I 
myself struggled with the transition to the white cane and waited longer 
than I should have.  I hope you are able to come up with a solution that 
works best for you.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about 
juggling multiple items)


> Jewel,
>
> If I may ask, can you explain a little more about your hesitation to use a
> wheelchair?  It sounds as though there will be no easy fix to your
> circumstance, though I think you could probably reduce the number of 
> things
> you feel you need in your bag.  Regardless, even if you were to 
> miraculously
> lighten your load, I am sensing that it is difficult for you to get around
> in general through no fault of your own.  Anyway, if you care to share,
> enlighten us as to what would be so terrible about using a wheelchair as a
> tool in much the same way you would currently use two separate canes.  It
> does not seem as though you would always need a wheelchair.  You could 
> pick
> and choose the situations where the extra assistance would be of value, 
> but
> without an understanding of your situation, this is only a casual
> observation.  You're certainly free to tell me to go to hell and not ask.
> *grin*  I won't be offended.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Thu Aug  5 00:01:10 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 20:01:10 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about	juggling  multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>

Jewel,
Try writing to the blind rollers mailing list; perhaps they have  
life-tested solutions.
Your reluctance to use a wheelchair has come up before and I  
completely understand why you wouldn't want one, but if it can improve  
life in some ways perhaps it could be a temporary solution?


Quoting Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>:

> Hello Jewel:
>
>     Some years ago, I heard of an electric golf cart that would follow
> a golfer around. The golfer wore a small device attached to his/her
> belt and the cart followed it. I have no clue if this type of device is
> still on the market. I'll check.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:47 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
> juggling multiple items)
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>> hand something fierce!
>>
>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>
>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>> well.
>>
>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>> backpack or other items?
>>
>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>> falling often.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca





From nabs.president at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 01:05:43 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 19:05:43 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] how to get involved on campus
In-Reply-To: <2F743CEE-1EE4-4773-9752-E9575184F321@gmail.com>
References: <950AE1BF5FAB488482AB0595405ECC9E@BECKY1>
	<2F743CEE-1EE4-4773-9752-E9575184F321@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikiP7s4yTUUOkFy_H5PROeqjiisPVH6M93qKLGR@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I think academic clubs can be a great way to meet people who share
interests with you. If you are religious or have a strong cultural
identity you can join religious or cultural organizations (i.e.
Asian-American groups, etc.) There are also lots of clubs that are
centered around community service and volunteering.

Arielle

On 8/4/10, Brittney Urquhart <brittney.urquhart at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Becky!
> A great way to get involved on campus and meet new people is to join
> campus organizations and clubs. Try joining the Student Government
> Association or find out if your major has a club, I.e. Social Work Club.
>
> Best Wishes,
> Brittney
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 4, 2010, at 5:33 PM, becky sabo <beckyasabo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Everyone,
>> I do not have allot of friends and I was wondering how do you get
>> involved
>> on campus to make more friends?
>> If anyone has any suggestions I would like that a lot.
>> Sincerely
>> Becky Sabo
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brittney.urquhart%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 01:45:37 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 21:45:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41>
	<20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

The thing that follows you around sounds really cool, like a motorized
pack mule!

As for my reluctance to use a wheelchair...I don't know. It's one of
those things. I had absolutely no problem using a white cane or
learning Braille (not that I had much choice if I wanted to not fall
and wanted to read!), but I am very reluctant to use a wheelchair. I
was reluctant to use a support cane for awhile, because I felt I was
simply too young to need a cane. I'm only 25 years old! But I finally
had to just accept the need because I found that it took me a whole
lot longer to walk somewhere on my bad days if I had a cane, and I was
veering and stumbling all over the place.

I do walk, it's just very difficult at times. My chiropractor told me
that I should stay away from using a wheelchair for as long as
possible, because once I start using a wheelchair part-time, my body
will deteriorate faster and I will have to use a wheelchair more and
more until it is full-time. I want to be able to walk. I don't want to
be a wheelchair-user full-time. I want to walk and jog and dance and
participate in sports like goalball and fencing. It's so hard to think
of myself being unable to do all these thing when I'm "a baby" as
everyone calls me (I look 16 instead of 25).

I guess it really is the stigmatism of the wheelchair, like white
canes or Braille. I feel that using a wheelchair more than at the mall
or for long distances will mean people pity me, think I can't walk,
that I am helpless. I already seem pitiful and helpless to people.
People already look at me strange because I ask them not to touch me
(patting my arm, holding my arm, patting my back or anything like that
is very painful). People already look at me weird and already pity
me...I feel a wheelchair would just make it worse. And when I stand up
from that wheelchair, people will tell me "You can stand, you can
walk. You don't need that chair!" They'll say I'm faking to get free
rides so to speak.

And then there is the practical side...when I'm not suing that
wheelchair, where does it go? When I'm not using my support cane, it
folds up and goes in my bag (it's a folding support cane from the NFB
center). But you can't fold up a motorized wheelchair. You can't stick
it in your backpack when you aren't using it. I'll end up using it
when I don't need it.

Further, there is the worry about mobility and orientation. I get so
confused when I'm walking...I can't imagine how confused I'd get when
in a chair! I'd have to learn O&M all over again, and the instructors
around here don't know how to work with a person in a wheelchair, so
I'd have to go away for it, and that would take me from my friends and
my boyfriend and my kitty cat...

I guess it's just that "scared" factor. I don't want things to change,
and I don't want to be helpless. I know I need to accept that it's
getting worse, that I'm having more tremors and the bad days are
outweighing the good these days, but I don't. want. to. Would you? If
you were 25 years old and had your entire life ahead of you, would you
want to have to accept that you'll never be able to run again (I
haven't been able to run since junior high school)? Would you want to
have to accept that you could never fence again (I used oto do
medieval fencing...about 7 years ago, before it got realy.ly bad)?
Would you want to have to accept that you can't walk without pain,
that you can't do things for yourself, that you need people to guide
you around because otherwise you fall over? It's just...well, it's
just not fair, though I know life's not fair.

And t hat's my rant about my physical condition, which is still of yet
diagnosed. It just keeps getting worse, and I'm constantly on pain
meds, but they still haven't figured it out. They just can't figure it
out, though several have suggested fibromyalgia.

It's...just so dang frustrating. Now, I am going to go take a bath and
mpe about my problems and leave you guys out of it

Hugs all around,
Jewel


On 8/4/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Jewel,
> Try writing to the blind rollers mailing list; perhaps they have
> life-tested solutions.
> Your reluctance to use a wheelchair has come up before and I
> completely understand why you wouldn't want one, but if it can improve
> life in some ways perhaps it could be a temporary solution?
>
>
> Quoting Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>:
>
>> Hello Jewel:
>>
>>     Some years ago, I heard of an electric golf cart that would follow
>> a golfer around. The golfer wore a small device attached to his/her
>> belt and the cart followed it. I have no clue if this type of device is
>> still on the market. I'll check.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:47 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
>> juggling multiple items)
>>
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>>> hand something fierce!
>>>
>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>
>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>>> backpack or other items?
>>>
>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>> falling often.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Thu Aug  5 02:51:37 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 21:51:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41><20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B5B82BDEADEB4A7AB773995389EAE652@D3DTZP41>

Hello Jewel:

     I just did a google search and indeed there are golf carts that will 
follow the golfer. I suggest you go to a high end golf store and look 
around. I suggest calling a store before visiting. Some of these carts are 
electric and you apparently give them a gentle pull and they move. Others 
you drive in front of you. The top of the line models have a remote control 
and some can follow automatically. Good luck.

Regards,

Robert



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 04:06:38 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 00:06:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <B5B82BDEADEB4A7AB773995389EAE652@D3DTZP41>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41>
	<20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>
	<B5B82BDEADEB4A7AB773995389EAE652@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim0wtisjwsNC_CeQV3OSrtm1QAXJoAQOmGLkWRs@mail.gmail.com>

How much do these carts cost, what stores carry them, and would it be
possible to get some kind of grant or insurance (I have Tricare Prime
and Medicaid) to pay for it? I doubt I could ever afford one of these
on my own, though it does sound like a really awesome idea! Defintely
want the one that goes behind, though so it's not in my cane's way.

Thanks for looking into it. I'll google it and see what I find!



On 8/4/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hello Jewel:
>
>      I just did a google search and indeed there are golf carts that will
> follow the golfer. I suggest you go to a high end golf store and look
> around. I suggest calling a store before visiting. Some of these carts are
> electric and you apparently give them a gentle pull and they move. Others
> you drive in front of you. The top of the line models have a remote control
> and some can follow automatically. Good luck.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 15:46:29 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:46:29 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41><20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <24F29A4BC7A24B70B8D1EDA2B6DE2123@Rufus>

Jewel,

My eyes often have difficulty adjusting to sunlight.  I've thought of
wearing sunglasses to minimize the discomfort, but I've always hesitated
partly because I felt I would be fitting the blind stereotype.  So, I slow
down my speed, wait for the adjustment to happen going outside or coming in,
but I think you'd agree that the people around me probably wouldn't notice.
In the end, the only person at a disadvantage is myself.

It's a matter of relativity.  People are already going to naturally look at
me for using a cane or handling my guide dog.  People's curiosity would not
dramatically increase by my wearing sunglasses.  By the same token, people
are not staring at me less for not wearing them.  People are going to look
regardless.  I mean, damn me for being a handsome Latino, right?  I kid, but
I believe that part of accepting your disability, any disability, is
learning how to keep control of how the disability is perceived in your
hands rather than in the hands of the general public.

Granted, sunglasses are far more portable than a wheelchair.  Yet, you will
never fully appreciate the comfort you might derive from using a wheelchair
until you put yourself in a real world scenario where you put a wheelchair
through its paces.  You can pick and choose where you take it, and if you
ever felt worried about whether you might be growing too dependent on it,
hit the gym and exercise your muscles.

To me, it is almost like the partially sighted person who refuses to use
blindness tools and techniques because they want to continue using their
vision as long as they have it.  There's nothing wrong with this position,
but could it not be argued that using some blindness techniques might
actually help prolong the person's vision because they aren't having to
strain it so often?

The issue is much more complicated.  My little rambling post is not going to
change your mind about this when there are so many issues of self-confidence
and self-esteem to work through.  It's easy for me to say you should take
advantage of a wheelchair, when I myself do not have to face this prospect,
but reading your response, I feel you are putting up your own obstacles.  I
think we all have to come to a point where we stop challenging ourselves.
There are enough challenges in life, and those tend to be far more
interesting than the ones we create all on our own.

Now, if I happen to join the convention in Orlando next summer, I'll put on
a pair of sunglasses, and maybe you'll let me volunteer to push you around
the hotel.  I can't promise we won't run over a person or three, nor can I
promise that we won't go flying out over a stair landing ET style, but you
can choose to see this as a collection of risks, or you can choose to think
of it as one crazy adventure you're not likely to forget anytime soon.
After all, it's all a matter of perception.  If we crash, it's probably
going to hurt no matter how you look at it, but as with most things, you'll
get up and move on.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 9:46 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? 
(Question about juggling multiple items)

Hi all,

The thing that follows you around sounds really cool, like a motorized
pack mule!

As for my reluctance to use a wheelchair...I don't know. It's one of
those things. I had absolutely no problem using a white cane or
learning Braille (not that I had much choice if I wanted to not fall
and wanted to read!), but I am very reluctant to use a wheelchair. I
was reluctant to use a support cane for awhile, because I felt I was
simply too young to need a cane. I'm only 25 years old! But I finally
had to just accept the need because I found that it took me a whole
lot longer to walk somewhere on my bad days if I had a cane, and I was
veering and stumbling all over the place.

I do walk, it's just very difficult at times. My chiropractor told me
that I should stay away from using a wheelchair for as long as
possible, because once I start using a wheelchair part-time, my body
will deteriorate faster and I will have to use a wheelchair more and
more until it is full-time. I want to be able to walk. I don't want to
be a wheelchair-user full-time. I want to walk and jog and dance and
participate in sports like goalball and fencing. It's so hard to think
of myself being unable to do all these thing when I'm "a baby" as
everyone calls me (I look 16 instead of 25).

I guess it really is the stigmatism of the wheelchair, like white
canes or Braille. I feel that using a wheelchair more than at the mall
or for long distances will mean people pity me, think I can't walk,
that I am helpless. I already seem pitiful and helpless to people.
People already look at me strange because I ask them not to touch me
(patting my arm, holding my arm, patting my back or anything like that
is very painful). People already look at me weird and already pity
me...I feel a wheelchair would just make it worse. And when I stand up
from that wheelchair, people will tell me "You can stand, you can
walk. You don't need that chair!" They'll say I'm faking to get free
rides so to speak.

And then there is the practical side...when I'm not suing that
wheelchair, where does it go? When I'm not using my support cane, it
folds up and goes in my bag (it's a folding support cane from the NFB
center). But you can't fold up a motorized wheelchair. You can't stick
it in your backpack when you aren't using it. I'll end up using it
when I don't need it.

Further, there is the worry about mobility and orientation. I get so
confused when I'm walking...I can't imagine how confused I'd get when
in a chair! I'd have to learn O&M all over again, and the instructors
around here don't know how to work with a person in a wheelchair, so
I'd have to go away for it, and that would take me from my friends and
my boyfriend and my kitty cat...

I guess it's just that "scared" factor. I don't want things to change,
and I don't want to be helpless. I know I need to accept that it's
getting worse, that I'm having more tremors and the bad days are
outweighing the good these days, but I don't. want. to. Would you? If
you were 25 years old and had your entire life ahead of you, would you
want to have to accept that you'll never be able to run again (I
haven't been able to run since junior high school)? Would you want to
have to accept that you could never fence again (I used oto do
medieval fencing...about 7 years ago, before it got realy.ly bad)?
Would you want to have to accept that you can't walk without pain,
that you can't do things for yourself, that you need people to guide
you around because otherwise you fall over? It's just...well, it's
just not fair, though I know life's not fair.

And t hat's my rant about my physical condition, which is still of yet
diagnosed. It just keeps getting worse, and I'm constantly on pain
meds, but they still haven't figured it out. They just can't figure it
out, though several have suggested fibromyalgia.

It's...just so dang frustrating. Now, I am going to go take a bath and
mpe about my problems and leave you guys out of it

Hugs all around,
Jewel


On 8/4/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca 
<sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Jewel,
> Try writing to the blind rollers mailing list; perhaps they have
> life-tested solutions.
> Your reluctance to use a wheelchair has come up before and I
> completely understand why you wouldn't want one, but if it can improve
> life in some ways perhaps it could be a temporary solution?
>
>
> Quoting Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>:
>
>> Hello Jewel:
>>
>>     Some years ago, I heard of an electric golf cart that 
would follow
>> a golfer around. The golfer wore a small device attached to his/her
>> belt and the cart followed it. I have no clue if this type 
of device is
>> still on the market. I'll check.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jewel S." 
<herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:47 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? 
(Question about
>> juggling multiple items)
>>
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, 
really. But
>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need 
that third
>>> hand something fierce!
>>>
>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra 
rolling backpack.
>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it 
easy to pull.
>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support 
cane. One
>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not 
too heavy,
>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>
>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me 
several times not
>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I 
have several
>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back 
and hips,
>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts 
of pain up
>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the 
question as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the 
college and
>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my 
problem. I
>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. 
Surely I'm not
>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you 
out there
>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands 
for rolling
>>> backpack or other items?
>>>
>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday 
when I was
>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>> falling often.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for nabs-l:
>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss
%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.je
vnikar%40utoronto.ca
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
ykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
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%40gmail.com



From jess28 at samobile.net  Thu Aug  5 17:21:43 2010
From: jess28 at samobile.net (Jess sA Mobile)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:21:43 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim0wtisjwsNC_CeQV3OSrtm1QAXJoAQOmGLkWRs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>	<3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41>	<20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>	<AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>	<B5B82BDEADEB4A7AB773995389EAE652@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim0wtisjwsNC_CeQV3OSrtm1QAXJoAQOmGLkWRs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03aa01cb34c2$ad822b40$088681c0$@net>

Jewel,
You could also just buy one of those Utility Carts. Which can be bought at
any Wal-Mart or any hardware store or you can always buy one online These
Utility carts can be pulled behind  you.
Jessica

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jewel S.
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:07 PM
To: Robert Jaquiss; National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand, please? (Question about
juggling multiple items)

How much do these carts cost, what stores carry them, and would it be
possible to get some kind of grant or insurance (I have Tricare Prime
and Medicaid) to pay for it? I doubt I could ever afford one of these
on my own, though it does sound like a really awesome idea! Defintely
want the one that goes behind, though so it's not in my cane's way.

Thanks for looking into it. I'll google it and see what I find!



On 8/4/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hello Jewel:
>
>      I just did a google search and indeed there are golf carts that will
> follow the golfer. I suggest you go to a high end golf store and look
> around. I suggest calling a store before visiting. Some of these carts are
> electric and you apparently give them a gentle pull and they move. Others
> you drive in front of you. The top of the line models have a remote
control
> and some can follow automatically. Good luck.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmai
l.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jess28%40samobile.ne
t



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 17:06:34 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:06:34 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about juggling 	multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2514D619-048F-4683-97A6-A83CB79405ED@gmail.com>

The thing is that, depending on how much money you are able to spend, I'm sure you can find substitutes for your laptop, keyboard and braille display which would be much smaller and portable. Smaller and portable things are not always as convenient as large ones, but maybe if you get used to them...
These days I take notes in class by using my iPhone and a small bluetooth keyboard. Maybe you want a bigger keyboard, but there are bluetooth keyboards of all sizes, and you can connect any of them to an iPhone or iPad. Both of these devices are much, much smaller and lighter than any laptop, and you can use them to take notes and organize them, read and write emails, browse the internet etc. I also know there are small, portable bluetooth braille displays available, and any of those will work just fine with either an iPhone or iPad. Plus, with an iPhone or iPad you can take notes and record the lecture at the same time.
If not, maybe using a BrailleNote would be a good idea. It has a braille display, can record, and can be used to take notes etc.
Basically what I'm saying is that I feel as though for what you need to do, you can find equipment that would be small enough for you to carry around with no need of a huge backpack. I'm really happy taking notes with my iPhone and keyboard. It's like having a laptop without having to take it around all the time. I only use the bluetooth keyboard when I'm writing long texts or taking notes in class. If not, the iPhone by itself is enough.
Just throwing in some ideas...!

Ignasi
On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jewel S. wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
> hand something fierce!
> 
> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
> 
> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
> well.
> 
> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
> backpack or other items?
> 
> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
> falling often.
> 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 17:12:36 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:12:36 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
	<21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>
	<AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com>

I also think it's a good idea, just because whether we end up making a car that we can drive or not, we will certainly learn something out of it. It is true that these days blind people are doing things which seemed impossible only 50 years ago. I wonder how many people in the 60s thought that it was possible to create a computer, and how many of those people thought it was possible to have a blind person use that computer independently like we do now. By then, it must have felt pretty much as impossible as driving a car feels now. I don't know if they'll get anything useful out of it, but technologies invented in order to make that car will certainly be useful in the future, both for blind and sighted people.
On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> I think the race for independence is a great idea.  Will it end up
> producing a car we can actually drive- who can say?  But I see nothing
> wrong with trying.  I confess to being, even after convention, a bit
> skeptical of a car that I could drive.  It sounds great on paper- but
> that's a whole heck of a lot of technology to depend on.  (you're
> talking cameras, laser sensors, and the interface to efficiently show
> a blind driver everything a sighted person's brain unconsciously
> processes in a matter of miliseconds)  I'm no expert, and I certainly
> hope future developments prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's
> going to work.  Does anyone have any information, other than what we
> heard at onvention, about the specific technologies that could be
> involved?  I'd be very interested.  Thanks and I appologize for the
> rambling post.
> 
> On 8/3/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
>> something.  Antonio said:
>> 
>> "Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies and
>> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
>> solutions.
>> 
>> I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project devoted to
>> cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally missed
>> it, but what do people generally think about it?
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 17:20:03 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 13:20:03 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=vwxM2fhGRVre8VAi5r69Kx9LxTcFmGB0UygV0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik3SWmcw-fzJR5QU=bOpzHVVnVEKPtdtF3HWPWy@mail.gmail.com>
	<637E486C5B2047C1BB4FAD53F1B7ABC0@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTi=6M_90PY+4TsmmR2vnyUDavftfFj9bT2m35U=T@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=vwxM2fhGRVre8VAi5r69Kx9LxTcFmGB0UygV0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <80DA1CC9-AD2E-4FF7-BFA5-B13EC243C7B6@gmail.com>

Hi!
Maybe you can just find the english version of the movie you are going to watch? Many times, DVD's come with the movie in several languages. Maybe if you watch it in english at home before you go to class, you won't have as much trouble following it. You will have a basic knowledge of what people are saying, and you will understand what's going on. An other idea is to get subtitle files from the DVD. This would not be nearly as convenient, but it's better than nothing. You could have a text file with the english subtitles that come with the DVD and look at it. This can be done easily. Of course, if you can't find a DVD version of the movie, all this is useless :).

Ignasi
On Aug 4, 2010, at 7:20 PM, Julie McGinnity wrote:

> Thanks Jewel and everyone else.  Jewel, I don't know if we have a
> group like that in St. Louis.  I go to Webster University in St.
> Louis, Mo.  I am going to email my professor with some of these ideas.
> I like the idea of a human describer.  One who would describe in
> english.  I'm sure we aren't expected to think in German all the time.
> This has been really helpful.  I will talk to her and see what we can
> do.
> 
> On 8/4/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Julie,
>> 
>> A German-speaking describer would be nice, but I don't think it's
>> necessary...after all, are the other students required to think in
>> German when watching the movie? I know that that is what is wanted to
>> happen eventually, but an English description of the goings-on in the
>> movie, reading of subtitles, etc. would be equally good, I think. Here
>> in Raleigh, we have a group called Arts Access of Raleigh, INc. They
>> are a group of live audio describers who mainly do descriptions at
>> plays, movies at the local museums, and the like. Do you know if you
>> have a group like this? If you tell me what university you attend, I
>> might be able to find soemthing for you...I know Arts Access will be a
>> great reference for me when it comes to needing someone to describe
>> videos for classes. This is something your school should provide as an
>> accommodation. Live description would be best, because the person can
>> describe things and ifyou don't understand, they can try to describe
>> better. With live description, you can also watch the video again
>> without description. You can also record the describer's reading to
>> re-play later, pausing it with the movie.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/3/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Hello Julie:
>>> 
>>>     I suggest you find an upper class student who has gone through this
>>> course to serve as a reader. Depending on the city where you are, you
>>> might
>>> be able to find a native German speaker who could also help you. Contact
>>> the
>>> NLS. They have some materials in German, and ought to be able to point you
>>> to where you could find more German materials. You might even try
>>> contacting
>>> a German consolate if your city has one. I rarely advocate putting an ad
>>> in
>>> a paper for a reader, but this might be a good reason to do it. Depending
>>> on
>>> where you are, you might find a church catering to a German speaking
>>> congregation such as Lutherans. Hope this helps.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Robert
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 5:18 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] difficulties with German class in the fall
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Hi everyone.
>>>> 
>>>> My name is Julie.  I am going into my second year of college.  I am
>>>> currently a double major in vocal performance and German.  In the fall
>>>> I will be taking a German culture class about Berlin.  This class is
>>>> about the history and culture of Berlin.  We will be reading several
>>>> novels, and the professor has emailed me to tell me that visual
>>>> material (movies with english or German subtitles, pictures, art work,
>>>> and arcatecture) are going to be a big part of the class.  I'm not
>>>> exactly sure what kind of accomidations I should ask for in this
>>>> class.
>>>> I am an auditory learner, but movies in German classes have always
>>>> been difficult for me to folow.  She suggested giving me a copy of the
>>>> movie to watch on my own time instead of in class, but I'm not sure
>>>> how that would help.
>>>> 
>>>> As for the various kinds of art work and photo material, I really
>>>> don't know.  If we are doing something about arcatecture, I'll just
>>>> ask if I can read about it instead of looking at it, but beyond that,
>>>> Ihave no clue.  Makes me wonder how I've survived until now.  Lol!
>>>> 
>>>> Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
>>>> --
>>>> Julie McG
>>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>> 
>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>>> life."
>>>> John 3:16
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
> 
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 21:25:44 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 15:25:44 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
	<21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>
	<AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com>

Absolutely- but, 50 years ago, the technology for computers and the
internet was still conceivable, although not available.  To me, the
hardest part would be getting a system which could show us everything
a sighted person could see on the road, and give us enough time to
react acordingly.  (we're talking split-second things here, stuff
sighted peoples' brains see and process practicly instantaneously)  I
think, if such an interface is possible, it's a long, long way off.
  That being said, I'm all for what's happening with the blind driver
challenge and the race for independence.  That could be what we need
to make those technologies possible, and who knows what else could
come from it.  I just don't see me driving in ten, twenty, even fifty
years.  Maybe never.  But I hope to be proven wrong.  By all means, as
long as the money and resources are available for this kind of
research, and it seems to me they very much are, why the heck not?

On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> I also think it's a good idea, just because whether we end up making a car
> that we can drive or not, we will certainly learn something out of it. It is
> true that these days blind people are doing things which seemed impossible
> only 50 years ago. I wonder how many people in the 60s thought that it was
> possible to create a computer, and how many of those people thought it was
> possible to have a blind person use that computer independently like we do
> now. By then, it must have felt pretty much as impossible as driving a car
> feels now. I don't know if they'll get anything useful out of it, but
> technologies invented in order to make that car will certainly be useful in
> the future, both for blind and sighted people.
> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>> I think the race for independence is a great idea.  Will it end up
>> producing a car we can actually drive- who can say?  But I see nothing
>> wrong with trying.  I confess to being, even after convention, a bit
>> skeptical of a car that I could drive.  It sounds great on paper- but
>> that's a whole heck of a lot of technology to depend on.  (you're
>> talking cameras, laser sensors, and the interface to efficiently show
>> a blind driver everything a sighted person's brain unconsciously
>> processes in a matter of miliseconds)  I'm no expert, and I certainly
>> hope future developments prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's
>> going to work.  Does anyone have any information, other than what we
>> heard at onvention, about the specific technologies that could be
>> involved?  I'd be very interested.  Thanks and I appologize for the
>> rambling post.
>>
>> On 8/3/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
>>> something.  Antonio said:
>>>
>>> "Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies
>>> and
>>> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
>>> solutions.
>>>
>>> I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project devoted
>>> to
>>> cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally
>>> missed
>>> it, but what do people generally think about it?
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 23:19:35 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 19:19:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <2514D619-048F-4683-97A6-A83CB79405ED@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<2514D619-048F-4683-97A6-A83CB79405ED@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimaQcj0-SDwv0ir=cxEuB3HojXy60OgcmAddDbM@mail.gmail.com>

I like the idea of carrying just an iPhone around. I just wish I had
the funds. I'm living on just SSDI and SSI. After rent and bills, I
have only $300 for transportation, food (now that EBT has been cut to
$16/month), apartment needs like toilet paper and cleaning supplies,
school supplies (DSB only pays for $50 of the supplies), and all sorts
of thigns like that. $300 doesn't go very far, especially when I'm
trying to save for the Orlando trip next year, and I'm trying to put
aside $200 each month for that...not that's it's happening like that,
but I'm trying.

It was hard enough getting DSB to pay for a laptop, refreshable
Braille display, embosser, scanner, and other things...I need the
Braille display because I have trouble with audio input. I really
can't do without them and do well in class. If I go without and just
record to take notes later, I might as well not be in class at all...

On the point of a utility cart, that would be the same problem as my
rolling backpack. How would I pull it if I'm using my white cane and
my support cane? I wouldn't be able to.

Talking today with people (VR counselor, rehab teachers, boyfriend),
I'm going to discuss the possibility of a motorized wheelchair for
part-time use (for around campus primarily). If insurance will pay for
it, I will get one and if I use it, I use it...I know I won't use it
every day, but just walking around today, I realized how much a
struggle it really is for me to walk sometimes. I was stumbling and
tripping and in such intense pain, I was actually wishing I had a
chair.

I did join the blind-rollers listserv. If I knew that was there
before, I would have joined...I didn't see it!

Thank you all for the ideas. Maybe I can save up for the new PacMate
Omni, which is small, or another small notetaker. For now, the laptop
is what I have to work with.

Thank you all,
Jewel

On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> The thing is that, depending on how much money you are able to spend, I'm
> sure you can find substitutes for your laptop, keyboard and braille display
> which would be much smaller and portable. Smaller and portable things are
> not always as convenient as large ones, but maybe if you get used to them...
> These days I take notes in class by using my iPhone and a small bluetooth
> keyboard. Maybe you want a bigger keyboard, but there are bluetooth
> keyboards of all sizes, and you can connect any of them to an iPhone or
> iPad. Both of these devices are much, much smaller and lighter than any
> laptop, and you can use them to take notes and organize them, read and write
> emails, browse the internet etc. I also know there are small, portable
> bluetooth braille displays available, and any of those will work just fine
> with either an iPhone or iPad. Plus, with an iPhone or iPad you can take
> notes and record the lecture at the same time.
> If not, maybe using a BrailleNote would be a good idea. It has a braille
> display, can record, and can be used to take notes etc.
> Basically what I'm saying is that I feel as though for what you need to do,
> you can find equipment that would be small enough for you to carry around
> with no need of a huge backpack. I'm really happy taking notes with my
> iPhone and keyboard. It's like having a laptop without having to take it
> around all the time. I only use the bluetooth keyboard when I'm writing long
> texts or taking notes in class. If not, the iPhone by itself is enough.
> Just throwing in some ideas...!
>
> Ignasi
> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jewel S. wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>> hand something fierce!
>>
>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>
>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>> well.
>>
>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>> backpack or other items?
>>
>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>> falling often.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Thu Aug  5 23:38:35 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:38:35 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimaQcj0-SDwv0ir=cxEuB3HojXy60OgcmAddDbM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<2514D619-048F-4683-97A6-A83CB79405ED@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimaQcj0-SDwv0ir=cxEuB3HojXy60OgcmAddDbM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinKrs6UyaOKFTJqXSzau1aXBz+cd4n6TH13yFPW@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jewel,

I'm a little surprised that DSB would get you heavy notetaking devices
like a laptop and separate Braille display if they are aware that you
have difficulty carrying heavy loads and considering that there are
much more portable options available like a Braille Note or netbook
and bluetooth Braille display. What about a Braille Note for
notetaking and reading in class, plus a netbook and Braille display
for home? Have your other disabilities been documented in your case
with them? The wheelchair sounds like an acceptable short-term
solution, but I can understand your reluctance to use it especially
given a legitimate concern that wheelchair use could impact the
mobility you still have. Perhaps getting more compact
Braille/notetaking devices would be a good long-term solution. It
would cost DSB a lot less to buy an I-phone or Braille Note, or
netbook and potable Braille display, than a laptop and big Braille
display; but of course rehab doesn't always make the most economical
or commonsense decisions. :)

Arielle;

On 8/5/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I like the idea of carrying just an iPhone around. I just wish I had
> the funds. I'm living on just SSDI and SSI. After rent and bills, I
> have only $300 for transportation, food (now that EBT has been cut to
> $16/month), apartment needs like toilet paper and cleaning supplies,
> school supplies (DSB only pays for $50 of the supplies), and all sorts
> of thigns like that. $300 doesn't go very far, especially when I'm
> trying to save for the Orlando trip next year, and I'm trying to put
> aside $200 each month for that...not that's it's happening like that,
> but I'm trying.
>
> It was hard enough getting DSB to pay for a laptop, refreshable
> Braille display, embosser, scanner, and other things...I need the
> Braille display because I have trouble with audio input. I really
> can't do without them and do well in class. If I go without and just
> record to take notes later, I might as well not be in class at all...
>
> On the point of a utility cart, that would be the same problem as my
> rolling backpack. How would I pull it if I'm using my white cane and
> my support cane? I wouldn't be able to.
>
> Talking today with people (VR counselor, rehab teachers, boyfriend),
> I'm going to discuss the possibility of a motorized wheelchair for
> part-time use (for around campus primarily). If insurance will pay for
> it, I will get one and if I use it, I use it...I know I won't use it
> every day, but just walking around today, I realized how much a
> struggle it really is for me to walk sometimes. I was stumbling and
> tripping and in such intense pain, I was actually wishing I had a
> chair.
>
> I did join the blind-rollers listserv. If I knew that was there
> before, I would have joined...I didn't see it!
>
> Thank you all for the ideas. Maybe I can save up for the new PacMate
> Omni, which is small, or another small notetaker. For now, the laptop
> is what I have to work with.
>
> Thank you all,
> Jewel
>
> On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The thing is that, depending on how much money you are able to spend, I'm
>> sure you can find substitutes for your laptop, keyboard and braille
>> display
>> which would be much smaller and portable. Smaller and portable things are
>> not always as convenient as large ones, but maybe if you get used to
>> them...
>> These days I take notes in class by using my iPhone and a small bluetooth
>> keyboard. Maybe you want a bigger keyboard, but there are bluetooth
>> keyboards of all sizes, and you can connect any of them to an iPhone or
>> iPad. Both of these devices are much, much smaller and lighter than any
>> laptop, and you can use them to take notes and organize them, read and
>> write
>> emails, browse the internet etc. I also know there are small, portable
>> bluetooth braille displays available, and any of those will work just fine
>> with either an iPhone or iPad. Plus, with an iPhone or iPad you can take
>> notes and record the lecture at the same time.
>> If not, maybe using a BrailleNote would be a good idea. It has a braille
>> display, can record, and can be used to take notes etc.
>> Basically what I'm saying is that I feel as though for what you need to
>> do,
>> you can find equipment that would be small enough for you to carry around
>> with no need of a huge backpack. I'm really happy taking notes with my
>> iPhone and keyboard. It's like having a laptop without having to take it
>> around all the time. I only use the bluetooth keyboard when I'm writing
>> long
>> texts or taking notes in class. If not, the iPhone by itself is enough.
>> Just throwing in some ideas...!
>>
>> Ignasi
>> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jewel S. wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>>> hand something fierce!
>>>
>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>
>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>>> backpack or other items?
>>>
>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>> falling often.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 00:04:11 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 20:04:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com><BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb><21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus><AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com><7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC>

In my opinion, a car that drives itself would be the best option. Eliminate 
human error from the equation. I don't just mean for blind drivers, but for 
everyone. Have your own personal Cray supercomputer under the hood along 
with the engine. Lol. But in all seriousness the computing power required to 
have a truly autonomous vehicle would be staggering.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind


> Absolutely- but, 50 years ago, the technology for computers and the
> internet was still conceivable, although not available.  To me, the
> hardest part would be getting a system which could show us everything
> a sighted person could see on the road, and give us enough time to
> react acordingly.  (we're talking split-second things here, stuff
> sighted peoples' brains see and process practicly instantaneously)  I
> think, if such an interface is possible, it's a long, long way off.
>  That being said, I'm all for what's happening with the blind driver
> challenge and the race for independence.  That could be what we need
> to make those technologies possible, and who knows what else could
> come from it.  I just don't see me driving in ten, twenty, even fifty
> years.  Maybe never.  But I hope to be proven wrong.  By all means, as
> long as the money and resources are available for this kind of
> research, and it seems to me they very much are, why the heck not?
>
> On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I also think it's a good idea, just because whether we end up making a 
>> car
>> that we can drive or not, we will certainly learn something out of it. It 
>> is
>> true that these days blind people are doing things which seemed 
>> impossible
>> only 50 years ago. I wonder how many people in the 60s thought that it 
>> was
>> possible to create a computer, and how many of those people thought it 
>> was
>> possible to have a blind person use that computer independently like we 
>> do
>> now. By then, it must have felt pretty much as impossible as driving a 
>> car
>> feels now. I don't know if they'll get anything useful out of it, but
>> technologies invented in order to make that car will certainly be useful 
>> in
>> the future, both for blind and sighted people.
>> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>
>>> I think the race for independence is a great idea.  Will it end up
>>> producing a car we can actually drive- who can say?  But I see nothing
>>> wrong with trying.  I confess to being, even after convention, a bit
>>> skeptical of a car that I could drive.  It sounds great on paper- but
>>> that's a whole heck of a lot of technology to depend on.  (you're
>>> talking cameras, laser sensors, and the interface to efficiently show
>>> a blind driver everything a sighted person's brain unconsciously
>>> processes in a matter of miliseconds)  I'm no expert, and I certainly
>>> hope future developments prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's
>>> going to work.  Does anyone have any information, other than what we
>>> heard at onvention, about the specific technologies that could be
>>> involved?  I'd be very interested.  Thanks and I appologize for the
>>> rambling post.
>>>
>>> On 8/3/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
>>>> something.  Antonio said:
>>>>
>>>> "Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies
>>>> and
>>>> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
>>>> solutions.
>>>>
>>>> I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project 
>>>> devoted
>>>> to
>>>> cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally
>>>> missed
>>>> it, but what do people generally think about it?
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
> 



From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 00:14:03 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
Message-ID: <99002.30931.qm@web30904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Does anyone know how to take a song from the purchaced list and put it in with the listed songs on the iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is using Jaws 10 with ITunes 9. Thanks.



      


From minesm at me.com  Fri Aug  6 00:48:22 2010
From: minesm at me.com (Maurice Mines)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 18:48:22 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <99002.30931.qm@web30904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <99002.30931.qm@web30904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <95FF6808-571F-4CAB-B871-9117EDF52965@me.com>

You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on a Windows PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on occasion. I've also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a matter of fact. I believe the sinking works the same way in Windows as it does on the Mac?
On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William ODonnell wrote:

> Does anyone know how to take a song from the purchaced list and put it in with the listed songs on the iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is using Jaws 10 with ITunes 9. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com

Maurice Mines
minesm at me.com





From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Thu Aug  5 23:46:29 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:46:29 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><3EDC32664E824225893806CC7FA3182E@D3DTZP41><20100804200110.ttb3omspw48osckw@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<AANLkTikfbh8jaxanm90D-9rZftA-040JOD-1Z27GmbBy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53FDF9065D7641E092062D54A00DB829@windows4c0ed96>

Dear Jewell, Thanks for your openness in describing some current obstacles
to your academic endeavors.  It sparks me to rethink some of my own balance
and mobility issues on campus.  To best describe my situation,  on a bad day
I can feel almost as if I am walking on stilts across my college .  So,
because of this lack of stability, caused by a couple of things probably
including degenearative disk disease,   just walking along can take a lot of
alertness and  can be draining. This can vary from day to day.  And if I can
rest, it is better for my balance.  But really, I was writing today to
mention something you might try and see if your mobility might benefit.  I
go, as often as I can, to work out classes held in a warm water pool in a
gym just nearby my apartment in San Diego.  The class involves some aerobics
and strengthening exercises done in water about four and one half feet and
the water is heated to ninety five degrees.  The water only seems delicious
and relaxing at that temperature, and after a while  of being in the medium
sized swimming pool it feels lukewarm or even tepid, so it is not a problem
in the summer.  Also the pool is in an air conditioned room.   One benefit,
not obvious unless you have balance problems, is that since you are in
water, you have no fear at any level of falling, even if your usual risk of
falling is slight, this is still a relief.   The classes have as a main
benefit to work to reduce pain.  The water  also helps to warm up  and
strengthen muscles and  lubricate joints, I am told, which helps keep people
mobile.  The class  is designed for arthritis patients, since it is put on
by the arthritis society and costs five dollars, but absolutely anyone could
benefit, in my view , in terms of pain relief, balance and lack of
stiffness.  Not to mention the endorphins usually associated with exercise.
I wonder if there is something similar, involving a hot water workout, that
is convenient for you.  Best always, Ginnie 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jewel S.
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 6:46 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
juggling multiple items)

Hi all,

The thing that follows you around sounds really cool, like a motorized
pack mule!

As for my reluctance to use a wheelchair...I don't know. It's one of
those things. I had absolutely no problem using a white cane or
learning Braille (not that I had much choice if I wanted to not fall
and wanted to read!), but I am very reluctant to use a wheelchair. I
was reluctant to use a support cane for awhile, because I felt I was
simply too young to need a cane. I'm only 25 years old! But I finally
had to just accept the need because I found that it took me a whole
lot longer to walk somewhere on my bad days if I had a cane, and I was
veering and stumbling all over the place.

I do walk, it's just very difficult at times. My chiropractor told me
that I should stay away from using a wheelchair for as long as
possible, because once I start using a wheelchair part-time, my body
will deteriorate faster and I will have to use a wheelchair more and
more until it is full-time. I want to be able to walk. I don't want to
be a wheelchair-user full-time. I want to walk and jog and dance and
participate in sports like goalball and fencing. It's so hard to think
of myself being unable to do all these thing when I'm "a baby" as
everyone calls me (I look 16 instead of 25).

I guess it really is the stigmatism of the wheelchair, like white
canes or Braille. I feel that using a wheelchair more than at the mall
or for long distances will mean people pity me, think I can't walk,
that I am helpless. I already seem pitiful and helpless to people.
People already look at me strange because I ask them not to touch me
(patting my arm, holding my arm, patting my back or anything like that
is very painful). People already look at me weird and already pity
me...I feel a wheelchair would just make it worse. And when I stand up
from that wheelchair, people will tell me "You can stand, you can
walk. You don't need that chair!" They'll say I'm faking to get free
rides so to speak.

And then there is the practical side...when I'm not suing that
wheelchair, where does it go? When I'm not using my support cane, it
folds up and goes in my bag (it's a folding support cane from the NFB
center). But you can't fold up a motorized wheelchair. You can't stick
it in your backpack when you aren't using it. I'll end up using it
when I don't need it.

Further, there is the worry about mobility and orientation. I get so
confused when I'm walking...I can't imagine how confused I'd get when
in a chair! I'd have to learn O&M all over again, and the instructors
around here don't know how to work with a person in a wheelchair, so
I'd have to go away for it, and that would take me from my friends and
my boyfriend and my kitty cat...

I guess it's just that "scared" factor. I don't want things to change,
and I don't want to be helpless. I know I need to accept that it's
getting worse, that I'm having more tremors and the bad days are
outweighing the good these days, but I don't. want. to. Would you? If
you were 25 years old and had your entire life ahead of you, would you
want to have to accept that you'll never be able to run again (I
haven't been able to run since junior high school)? Would you want to
have to accept that you could never fence again (I used oto do
medieval fencing...about 7 years ago, before it got realy.ly bad)?
Would you want to have to accept that you can't walk without pain,
that you can't do things for yourself, that you need people to guide
you around because otherwise you fall over? It's just...well, it's
just not fair, though I know life's not fair.

And t hat's my rant about my physical condition, which is still of yet
diagnosed. It just keeps getting worse, and I'm constantly on pain
meds, but they still haven't figured it out. They just can't figure it
out, though several have suggested fibromyalgia.

It's...just so dang frustrating. Now, I am going to go take a bath and
mpe about my problems and leave you guys out of it

Hugs all around,
Jewel


On 8/4/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Jewel,
> Try writing to the blind rollers mailing list; perhaps they have
> life-tested solutions.
> Your reluctance to use a wheelchair has come up before and I
> completely understand why you wouldn't want one, but if it can improve
> life in some ways perhaps it could be a temporary solution?
>
>
> Quoting Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>:
>
>> Hello Jewel:
>>
>>     Some years ago, I heard of an electric golf cart that would follow
>> a golfer around. The golfer wore a small device attached to his/her
>> belt and the cart followed it. I have no clue if this type of device is
>> still on the market. I'll check.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 3:47 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
>> juggling multiple items)
>>
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>>> hand something fierce!
>>>
>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>
>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>>> backpack or other items?
>>>
>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>> falling often.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for nabs-l:
>>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink
.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40uto
ronto.ca
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmai
l.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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et



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Fri Aug  6 01:48:54 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 20:48:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Boxes of Food available at a discount
Message-ID: <871C98D575C54B3C91C26151549F3D90@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     Since many students are on a limited budget, I thought I would pass on the following link to Angel Food Ministries:
https://www.angelfoodministries.com/

Angel Food Ministries sells boxes of food at a substantial discount. There are no applications to fill out. Food Stamps are accepted. There are several kinds of boxes. One type is what I would call general purpose. It is supposed to feed a family of four for a week. There are also specialty boxes such as one that is alergen free, a fruit and veggie box, 10 pound chicken box etc. As an example, I paid $22 for a ten pound box of boneless skinless chicken breasts.

     The way the program works is that you prepay your ordr and then pick it up at the middle or end of the month depending on your location. Hope this makes sense.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Fri Aug  6 02:04:17 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 19:04:17 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about 	juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimaQcj0-SDwv0ir=cxEuB3HojXy60OgcmAddDbM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><2514D619-048F-4683-97A6-A83CB79405ED@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimaQcj0-SDwv0ir=cxEuB3HojXy60OgcmAddDbM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FFCD18B9C6D641659AAD3312DF067DC9@windows4c0ed96>

Hi Jewell and list, I wonder if you could share with me a link to the blind
rollers list,  which I too had never heard of, or some way to find it?  With
my balance problems, I sometimes wonder about using a wheelchair at some
point.  And I have always had a tough time picturing how someone would use a
chair without any vision, but it must be done.  Thanks, Ginnie

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jewel S.
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 4:20 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
juggling multiple items)

I like the idea of carrying just an iPhone around. I just wish I had
the funds. I'm living on just SSDI and SSI. After rent and bills, I
have only $300 for transportation, food (now that EBT has been cut to
$16/month), apartment needs like toilet paper and cleaning supplies,
school supplies (DSB only pays for $50 of the supplies), and all sorts
of thigns like that. $300 doesn't go very far, especially when I'm
trying to save for the Orlando trip next year, and I'm trying to put
aside $200 each month for that...not that's it's happening like that,
but I'm trying.

It was hard enough getting DSB to pay for a laptop, refreshable
Braille display, embosser, scanner, and other things...I need the
Braille display because I have trouble with audio input. I really
can't do without them and do well in class. If I go without and just
record to take notes later, I might as well not be in class at all...

On the point of a utility cart, that would be the same problem as my
rolling backpack. How would I pull it if I'm using my white cane and
my support cane? I wouldn't be able to.

Talking today with people (VR counselor, rehab teachers, boyfriend),
I'm going to discuss the possibility of a motorized wheelchair for
part-time use (for around campus primarily). If insurance will pay for
it, I will get one and if I use it, I use it...I know I won't use it
every day, but just walking around today, I realized how much a
struggle it really is for me to walk sometimes. I was stumbling and
tripping and in such intense pain, I was actually wishing I had a
chair.

I did join the blind-rollers listserv. If I knew that was there
before, I would have joined...I didn't see it!

Thank you all for the ideas. Maybe I can save up for the new PacMate
Omni, which is small, or another small notetaker. For now, the laptop
is what I have to work with.

Thank you all,
Jewel

On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> The thing is that, depending on how much money you are able to spend, I'm
> sure you can find substitutes for your laptop, keyboard and braille
display
> which would be much smaller and portable. Smaller and portable things are
> not always as convenient as large ones, but maybe if you get used to
them...
> These days I take notes in class by using my iPhone and a small bluetooth
> keyboard. Maybe you want a bigger keyboard, but there are bluetooth
> keyboards of all sizes, and you can connect any of them to an iPhone or
> iPad. Both of these devices are much, much smaller and lighter than any
> laptop, and you can use them to take notes and organize them, read and
write
> emails, browse the internet etc. I also know there are small, portable
> bluetooth braille displays available, and any of those will work just fine
> with either an iPhone or iPad. Plus, with an iPhone or iPad you can take
> notes and record the lecture at the same time.
> If not, maybe using a BrailleNote would be a good idea. It has a braille
> display, can record, and can be used to take notes etc.
> Basically what I'm saying is that I feel as though for what you need to
do,
> you can find equipment that would be small enough for you to carry around
> with no need of a huge backpack. I'm really happy taking notes with my
> iPhone and keyboard. It's like having a laptop without having to take it
> around all the time. I only use the bluetooth keyboard when I'm writing
long
> texts or taking notes in class. If not, the iPhone by itself is enough.
> Just throwing in some ideas...!
>
> Ignasi
> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jewel S. wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>> hand something fierce!
>>
>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>
>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>> well.
>>
>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>> backpack or other items?
>>
>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>> falling often.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail
.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmai
l.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
et



From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Fri Aug  6 02:49:27 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:49:27 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about	 juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <FFCD18B9C6D641659AAD3312DF067DC9@windows4c0ed96>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><2514D619-048F-4683-97A6-A83CB79405ED@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimaQcj0-SDwv0ir=cxEuB3HojXy60OgcmAddDbM@mail.gmail.com>
	<FFCD18B9C6D641659AAD3312DF067DC9@windows4c0ed96>
Message-ID: <20100805224927.9v9ezxy3ac40gsc0@webmail.utoronto.ca>

HI Ginny,
Good to see you posting again :)
Here's the link to the Blind-Rollers list homepage:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-rollers_nfbnet.org
hth,
Sarah


Quoting V Nork <ginisd at sbcglobal.net>:

> Hi Jewell and list, I wonder if you could share with me a link to the blind
> rollers list,  which I too had never heard of, or some way to find it?  With
> my balance problems, I sometimes wonder about using a wheelchair at some
> point.  And I have always had a tough time picturing how someone would use a
> chair without any vision, but it must be done.  Thanks, Ginnie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jewel S.
> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 4:20 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
> juggling multiple items)
>
> I like the idea of carrying just an iPhone around. I just wish I had
> the funds. I'm living on just SSDI and SSI. After rent and bills, I
> have only $300 for transportation, food (now that EBT has been cut to
> $16/month), apartment needs like toilet paper and cleaning supplies,
> school supplies (DSB only pays for $50 of the supplies), and all sorts
> of thigns like that. $300 doesn't go very far, especially when I'm
> trying to save for the Orlando trip next year, and I'm trying to put
> aside $200 each month for that...not that's it's happening like that,
> but I'm trying.
>
> It was hard enough getting DSB to pay for a laptop, refreshable
> Braille display, embosser, scanner, and other things...I need the
> Braille display because I have trouble with audio input. I really
> can't do without them and do well in class. If I go without and just
> record to take notes later, I might as well not be in class at all...
>
> On the point of a utility cart, that would be the same problem as my
> rolling backpack. How would I pull it if I'm using my white cane and
> my support cane? I wouldn't be able to.
>
> Talking today with people (VR counselor, rehab teachers, boyfriend),
> I'm going to discuss the possibility of a motorized wheelchair for
> part-time use (for around campus primarily). If insurance will pay for
> it, I will get one and if I use it, I use it...I know I won't use it
> every day, but just walking around today, I realized how much a
> struggle it really is for me to walk sometimes. I was stumbling and
> tripping and in such intense pain, I was actually wishing I had a
> chair.
>
> I did join the blind-rollers listserv. If I knew that was there
> before, I would have joined...I didn't see it!
>
> Thank you all for the ideas. Maybe I can save up for the new PacMate
> Omni, which is small, or another small notetaker. For now, the laptop
> is what I have to work with.
>
> Thank you all,
> Jewel
>
> On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The thing is that, depending on how much money you are able to spend, I'm
>> sure you can find substitutes for your laptop, keyboard and braille
> display
>> which would be much smaller and portable. Smaller and portable things are
>> not always as convenient as large ones, but maybe if you get used to
> them...
>> These days I take notes in class by using my iPhone and a small bluetooth
>> keyboard. Maybe you want a bigger keyboard, but there are bluetooth
>> keyboards of all sizes, and you can connect any of them to an iPhone or
>> iPad. Both of these devices are much, much smaller and lighter than any
>> laptop, and you can use them to take notes and organize them, read and
> write
>> emails, browse the internet etc. I also know there are small, portable
>> bluetooth braille displays available, and any of those will work just fine
>> with either an iPhone or iPad. Plus, with an iPhone or iPad you can take
>> notes and record the lecture at the same time.
>> If not, maybe using a BrailleNote would be a good idea. It has a braille
>> display, can record, and can be used to take notes etc.
>> Basically what I'm saying is that I feel as though for what you need to
> do,
>> you can find equipment that would be small enough for you to carry around
>> with no need of a huge backpack. I'm really happy taking notes with my
>> iPhone and keyboard. It's like having a laptop without having to take it
>> around all the time. I only use the bluetooth keyboard when I'm writing
> long
>> texts or taking notes in class. If not, the iPhone by itself is enough.
>> Just throwing in some ideas...!
>>
>> Ignasi
>> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:47 PM, Jewel S. wrote:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>>> hand something fierce!
>>>
>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>
>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>>> backpack or other items?
>>>
>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>> falling often.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail
> .com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmai
> l.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>





From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 03:37:30 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 21:37:30 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
	<21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>
	<AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com>
	<CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com>

Man...no.  What if I wanna drag race, or do doughnuts in the middle of
the road, or something like that?  I'm not sure an autonomous computer
would let me be a risky driver like that.  But- in all seriousness,
I'm not sure there's any substitute for the human brain.  I really
wouldn't trust any computer, no matter how advanced, to drive me any
place.  Because, all the computing power in the world can't make up
for human intuition and reasoning.  I suppose avoiding obstacles and
the like would be possible with a computer driving you, but I think
there are situations on a road that require more complex problem
solving ability than that.  And- pardon my silliness, but where's the
fun in letting a computer drive you any place?  To me that almost
defeats the purpose of driving.  Just sayin.  :)
 Hope everyone's doing well,
Kirt

On 8/5/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> In my opinion, a car that drives itself would be the best option. Eliminate
> human error from the equation. I don't just mean for blind drivers, but for
> everyone. Have your own personal Cray supercomputer under the hood along
> with the engine. Lol. But in all seriousness the computing power required to
> have a truly autonomous vehicle would be staggering.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 5:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
>
>
>> Absolutely- but, 50 years ago, the technology for computers and the
>> internet was still conceivable, although not available.  To me, the
>> hardest part would be getting a system which could show us everything
>> a sighted person could see on the road, and give us enough time to
>> react acordingly.  (we're talking split-second things here, stuff
>> sighted peoples' brains see and process practicly instantaneously)  I
>> think, if such an interface is possible, it's a long, long way off.
>>  That being said, I'm all for what's happening with the blind driver
>> challenge and the race for independence.  That could be what we need
>> to make those technologies possible, and who knows what else could
>> come from it.  I just don't see me driving in ten, twenty, even fifty
>> years.  Maybe never.  But I hope to be proven wrong.  By all means, as
>> long as the money and resources are available for this kind of
>> research, and it seems to me they very much are, why the heck not?
>>
>> On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I also think it's a good idea, just because whether we end up making a
>>> car
>>> that we can drive or not, we will certainly learn something out of it. It
>>>
>>> is
>>> true that these days blind people are doing things which seemed
>>> impossible
>>> only 50 years ago. I wonder how many people in the 60s thought that it
>>> was
>>> possible to create a computer, and how many of those people thought it
>>> was
>>> possible to have a blind person use that computer independently like we
>>> do
>>> now. By then, it must have felt pretty much as impossible as driving a
>>> car
>>> feels now. I don't know if they'll get anything useful out of it, but
>>> technologies invented in order to make that car will certainly be useful
>>> in
>>> the future, both for blind and sighted people.
>>> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think the race for independence is a great idea.  Will it end up
>>>> producing a car we can actually drive- who can say?  But I see nothing
>>>> wrong with trying.  I confess to being, even after convention, a bit
>>>> skeptical of a car that I could drive.  It sounds great on paper- but
>>>> that's a whole heck of a lot of technology to depend on.  (you're
>>>> talking cameras, laser sensors, and the interface to efficiently show
>>>> a blind driver everything a sighted person's brain unconsciously
>>>> processes in a matter of miliseconds)  I'm no expert, and I certainly
>>>> hope future developments prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's
>>>> going to work.  Does anyone have any information, other than what we
>>>> heard at onvention, about the specific technologies that could be
>>>> involved?  I'd be very interested.  Thanks and I appologize for the
>>>> rambling post.
>>>>
>>>> On 8/3/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
>>>>> something.  Antonio said:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies
>>>>> and
>>>>> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
>>>>> solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project
>>>>> devoted
>>>>> to
>>>>> cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally
>>>>> missed
>>>>> it, but what do people generally think about it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Fri Aug  6 11:42:09 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 07:42:09 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
	<21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>
	<AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com>
	<CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9AB1D265DEE7432E8AC8902340033F39@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Ok, here is my input on the situation.  If finances are available, we should 
go for it.  If it does not benefit us blind people, it will benefit others 
who can see.  Also, it might create safer roads if the cars become so 
popular that the sighted begin to use them.  Also, airplanes are piloted by 
computers, and airplanes are safer than cars.  So who is to say that a car 
couldn't be as safe.  As for the hair trigger decisions, only doing it by 
testing it can we know if we can accomplish this.  Also, because the car can 
see in all directions at all times where as humans can only see in one, 
would it be less likely for an accident because the driver would know more 
information sooner.  Just thinking out loud here about this.  Anita

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind


> Man...no.  What if I wanna drag race, or do doughnuts in the middle of
> the road, or something like that?  I'm not sure an autonomous computer
> would let me be a risky driver like that.  But- in all seriousness,
> I'm not sure there's any substitute for the human brain.  I really
> wouldn't trust any computer, no matter how advanced, to drive me any
> place.  Because, all the computing power in the world can't make up
> for human intuition and reasoning.  I suppose avoiding obstacles and
> the like would be possible with a computer driving you, but I think
> there are situations on a road that require more complex problem
> solving ability than that.  And- pardon my silliness, but where's the
> fun in letting a computer drive you any place?  To me that almost
> defeats the purpose of driving.  Just sayin.  :)
> Hope everyone's doing well,
> Kirt
>
> On 8/5/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In my opinion, a car that drives itself would be the best option. 
>> Eliminate
>> human error from the equation. I don't just mean for blind drivers, but 
>> for
>> everyone. Have your own personal Cray supercomputer under the hood along
>> with the engine. Lol. But in all seriousness the computing power required 
>> to
>> have a truly autonomous vehicle would be staggering.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 5:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
>>
>>
>>> Absolutely- but, 50 years ago, the technology for computers and the
>>> internet was still conceivable, although not available.  To me, the
>>> hardest part would be getting a system which could show us everything
>>> a sighted person could see on the road, and give us enough time to
>>> react acordingly.  (we're talking split-second things here, stuff
>>> sighted peoples' brains see and process practicly instantaneously)  I
>>> think, if such an interface is possible, it's a long, long way off.
>>>  That being said, I'm all for what's happening with the blind driver
>>> challenge and the race for independence.  That could be what we need
>>> to make those technologies possible, and who knows what else could
>>> come from it.  I just don't see me driving in ten, twenty, even fifty
>>> years.  Maybe never.  But I hope to be proven wrong.  By all means, as
>>> long as the money and resources are available for this kind of
>>> research, and it seems to me they very much are, why the heck not?
>>>
>>> On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I also think it's a good idea, just because whether we end up making a
>>>> car
>>>> that we can drive or not, we will certainly learn something out of it. 
>>>> It
>>>>
>>>> is
>>>> true that these days blind people are doing things which seemed
>>>> impossible
>>>> only 50 years ago. I wonder how many people in the 60s thought that it
>>>> was
>>>> possible to create a computer, and how many of those people thought it
>>>> was
>>>> possible to have a blind person use that computer independently like we
>>>> do
>>>> now. By then, it must have felt pretty much as impossible as driving a
>>>> car
>>>> feels now. I don't know if they'll get anything useful out of it, but
>>>> technologies invented in order to make that car will certainly be 
>>>> useful
>>>> in
>>>> the future, both for blind and sighted people.
>>>> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think the race for independence is a great idea.  Will it end up
>>>>> producing a car we can actually drive- who can say?  But I see nothing
>>>>> wrong with trying.  I confess to being, even after convention, a bit
>>>>> skeptical of a car that I could drive.  It sounds great on paper- but
>>>>> that's a whole heck of a lot of technology to depend on.  (you're
>>>>> talking cameras, laser sensors, and the interface to efficiently show
>>>>> a blind driver everything a sighted person's brain unconsciously
>>>>> processes in a matter of miliseconds)  I'm no expert, and I certainly
>>>>> hope future developments prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's
>>>>> going to work.  Does anyone have any information, other than what we
>>>>> heard at onvention, about the specific technologies that could be
>>>>> involved?  I'd be very interested.  Thanks and I appologize for the
>>>>> rambling post.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/3/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
>>>>>> something.  Antonio said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better 
>>>>>> technologies
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for 
>>>>>> unviable
>>>>>> solutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project
>>>>>> devoted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally
>>>>>> missed
>>>>>> it, but what do people generally think about it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
> 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 14:15:14 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 10:15:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <9AB1D265DEE7432E8AC8902340033F39@AnitaAdkinsPC>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com><BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb><21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus><AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com><7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com><AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com><CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC><AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com>
	<9AB1D265DEE7432E8AC8902340033F39@AnitaAdkinsPC>
Message-ID: <DD69488722024D8EA06A60FF3671994A@Rufus>

Dear all,

I don't know that airplanes are an accurate analogy to cars that can be
driven by the blind.  Airplanes may rely on autopilot, but this is also
supplemented by traffic controllers, and there is far more space in the
skies than there is on crowded streets.

My concern is the massive overhaul that would need to occur for these cars
to function.  You'd need to retrofit traffic lights, stop signs, speed limit
posts, construction warnings and all manner of traffic indicators to
communicate with the onboard vehicle computer.  In order for the system to
work, you'd need to retrofit all vehicles.  Otherwise, how is a car for the
blind supposed to determine when it is safe to change lanes on a speedway,
especially if the other driver is not willing to yield?  How does the
computer compensate for abrupt changes like black ice, and if the system is
relying on satellites, as it must surely have to do to navigate accurately,
what happens in tunnels where reception is lost?

My issue with this project is not the idea itself.  There is a plethora of
technology today that could not have been imagined even 20 years ago.  My
extreme concerns fall into two categories:

First, one of the compelling reasons to support this project appears to be
the reduction in unemployment.  Ironically, the NFB did not support the
accessible currency idea, among other reasons, because it did not feel
accessible currency could be linked to a person's ability to hold a job.
The thought was that people could either fold their bills or use devices to
identify them.  Now we're somehow saying that a person's inability to hold a
job is related to a person's inability to get there.  I am not ignorant to
the fact that there are areas where public transportation is weak or
nonexistent, but this is not a brand-new issue.  A lot of local chapters
routinely battle with their transit authorities to expand service, and I
have to wonder why it is we have not taken a more systematic strategy to try
to mitigate the problem.

Yet, more to the point, the problem with linking accessible currency and
cars for the blind to employment is that these factors only answer the
question of means to employment, not employment opportunities themselves.
The high unemployment rate partly has to do with qualifications.  It partly
has to do with independent living skills.  It more than likely has to do
with other issues, but I would be willing to bet that it largely has to do
with attitudes.  Until we do more to change the overwhelming perception that
blind people are inept, I don't know how we're supposed to assume drivable
cars are going to make blind people employable.  My sense is that if blind
people were seen driving by, the casual bystander would be awed by the
engineering that went into the vehicle, not by the blind driver.

I won't even elaborate on the cost of such a technology to the end consumer.
I'll only say that we should look around at the cost of adaptive technology
now.  Add this to the cost of a new vehicle, its general maintenance and the
expense of its special technology.  Is someone going to argue that the
introduction of these vehicles is going to miraculously place blind people
in comfortable jobs with ample salaries to cover the expenses?

My second concern is my old mantra.  I question this race to make blind
people so much like sighted people.  Note this is not an "us" versus "them"
argument.  It just seems that we spend so much fundraising power and labor
on making it possible for blind people to do things like our sighted peers
that I wonder if it might not make more sense to invest in preventing
blindness altogether.  It seems we currently spend carrying out a mission of
suppositions: if we can convince people to follow universal access, if we
could raise the caps on social security, if we could get more people to read
Braille, if we could drive cars, if our notetakers could have more features,
if more books were accessible, if more websites were accessible...

I anticipate a counter argument that we cannot make things better for the
blind and try to reduce blindness simultaneously.  But, we haven't been
doing too much for the blind either.  Instead, the selling point for this
year's donor drive was to promote a project that our generation may not even
be able to witness.  I mean, what happened to good ol' grassroots
organizing?  Self-advocacy?  It's astounding how much the work of the
organization has changed in just the nine years I've been around.  Here here
for a car blind people may be able to drive in the distant future, but in
the meantime I'd sure like to see more blind people receiving the training
and equipment they need to be able to get good jobs, raise good families and
comfortably say they could afford all the technology that is yet to come.

Anyway, just my twenty dollar's worth,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 16:17:11 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 12:17:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <95FF6808-571F-4CAB-B871-9117EDF52965@me.com>
References: <99002.30931.qm@web30904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<95FF6808-571F-4CAB-B871-9117EDF52965@me.com>
Message-ID: <2F44F437-49D3-4BB7-A254-073641480403@gmail.com>

If you haven't changed the default settings, purchased music should go into the iPhone just by sinking it with your iTunes library. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Maurice Mines <minesm at me.com> wrote:

> You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on a Windows PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on occasion. I've also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a matter of fact. I believe the sinking works the same way in Windows as it does on the Mac?
> On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William ODonnell wrote:
> 
>> Does anyone know how to take a song from the purchaced list and put it in with the listed songs on the iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is using Jaws 10 with ITunes 9. Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com
> 
> Maurice Mines
> minesm at me.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Aug  6 16:37:01 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:37:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com><BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb><21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus><AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com><7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com><AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com><CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC><AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com><9AB1D265DEE7432E8AC8902340033F39@AnitaAdkinsPC>
	<DD69488722024D8EA06A60FF3671994A@Rufus>
Message-ID: <008401cb3585$9939b6d0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good morning everyone,
    Let me say something right now before the nay-saying gets out-of-hand! I 
for one dreamed of the possibility of being able to drive a car as far back 
as 1968. I got very excited in 2000 when this initiative was announced when 
construction of the NFB Jernigan Institute began. It is wonderful to see 
this dream finally becoming a reality. When full realization of that dream 
has been achieved is still up in the air but we've begun developing the 
technology to make it possible for us to drive a vehicle independently. This 
is exciting and empowering!

    It means the difference between being able to live where you wish or 
having your choice of local being determined by the availability or lack of 
public transportation. It means being able to travel on your schedule and 
not those of transportation providers. It means not having to rely on others 
for transportation particularly on a South Texas scortcher like today.

    It also has the potential to open up job possibilities previously not 
thought possible for the blind. Some of us have all ready imagined this 
technology being married to that used by airplane pilots to permit a blind 
person to pilot their own aircraft. Hence the airplane analogy is valid as 
some of the technology being developed for the car interface for the blind 
is all ready used to pilot airplanes. Others have also invisioned blind 
persons working as taxi drivers, bus drivers, railroad engineers, etc. I 
call upon you to explore the possibilities rather than rehashing many of the 
so-called reasons and excuses of why this will not work or why the blind 
shouldn't drive. We're supposed to be imaginators so let's act like it! We 
all have a right to disagree but when those disagreements cross the line and 
result in the destruction of the dreams, desires, and aspirations of those 
who imagine a future full of possibilities someone is going to sound the 
alarm and say, "Enough!" Thanks for listening and contemplating.

Peter Donahue



From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  6 16:40:31 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 09:40:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <2F44F437-49D3-4BB7-A254-073641480403@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <102149.85394.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

How do you check on the settings?


--- On Fri, 8/6/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 12:17 PM
> If you haven't changed the default
> settings, purchased music should go into the iPhone just by
> sinking it with your iTunes library. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Maurice Mines <minesm at me.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on a Windows
> PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on occasion. I've
> also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a matter of
> fact. I believe the sinking works the same way in Windows as
> it does on the Mac?
> > On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William ODonnell wrote:
> > 
> >> Does anyone know how to take a song from the
> purchaced list and put it in with the listed songs on the
> iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is using Jaws 10
> with ITunes 9. Thanks.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info for nabs-l:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com
> > 
> > Maurice Mines
> > minesm at me.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 17:20:04 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:20:04 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <008401cb3585$9939b6d0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com><BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb><21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus><AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com><7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com><AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com><CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC><AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com><9AB1D265DEE7432E8AC8902340033F39@AnitaAdkinsPC>
	<DD69488722024D8EA06A60FF3671994A@Rufus>
	<008401cb3585$9939b6d0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <010D7A88F8C24D0CB7614C1805DBE670@Rufus>

Peter wrote:
***

We all have a right to disagree but when those disagreements cross the line
and result in the destruction of the dreams, desires, and aspirations of
those who imagine a future full of possibilities someone is going to sound
the alarm and say, "Enough!"

***

1. Who gets to determine when and how that line of disagreement is crossed?
I think this statement is eerily representative of the position the
leadership has taken toward its members.

2. How is the expression of disagreement going to destroy people's dreams?
I think people dream of employment and general social acceptability.  I can
agree that having a car that is fully integrated and accessible would be
nice, but I think you would agree people are intelligent enough to
distinguish between what is a personal dream and what is a wish.  I am fully
employed and run a business on the side, neither of which was accomplished
by driving a car.

3. How do you respond to my practical points about affordability, attitude,
logistics, proper training, etc?  It seems that if we cannot answer those
questions beforehand, we are leaving too much to chance and raising millions
of dollars for some skewed priorities.  Does it not strike anyone as
backward that at the height of an economic recession where thousands of jobs
are being lost each month, we are choosing to spend money on a distant
reality, when we could be spending that money on hosting job fares, employer
training, co-op opportunities and other job readiness programs?

4. How can the airplane analogy stand when blind pilots are still not
allowed to take off or land with assistance let alone independently?  Let's
at least use comparable examples.

I have faith that in a distant future technology will have evolved to make
cars for the blind an acceptable reality.  Yet, I wonder if the NFB is the
right vehicle to devote its limited resources to the cause.  For many years
we have heard about the overwhelming unemployment rate among blind people,
and if the best evidence of putting a dent in that unemployment rate is the
promise of a car in the distant future, I think we have fallen dramatically
short of the mission we claim to serve.  As long as we continue to hear
about cases like the one in Missouri where the blind couple had their baby
taken away simply because they were blind, there is an enormous of work for
us to do right here and now in the present without exhausting precious
resources on a far removed future.

I'm an imaginator alright.  I imagine a world with a better education system
to prepare tomorrow's generation of leaders.  I imagine a world where the
technology we use right now does not break a person's bank.  I also imagine
a world where my dozens of blind and sighted friends without a job will be
able to be hired somewhere despite the economy.  Sadly, our world runs on
money, and if you don't have it, that's all you'll do in life, is imagine.

Respectfully,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Donahue [mailto:pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net] 
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 12:37 PM
To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students 
mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind

Good morning everyone,
    Let me say something right now before the nay-saying gets 
out-of-hand! I 
for one dreamed of the possibility of being able to drive a car 
as far back 
as 1968. I got very excited in 2000 when this initiative was 
announced when 
construction of the NFB Jernigan Institute began. It is 
wonderful to see 
this dream finally becoming a reality. When full realization of 
that dream 
has been achieved is still up in the air but we've begun developing the 
technology to make it possible for us to drive a vehicle 
independently. This 
is exciting and empowering!

    It means the difference between being able to live where 
you wish or 
having your choice of local being determined by the 
availability or lack of 
public transportation. It means being able to travel on your 
schedule and 
not those of transportation providers. It means not having to 
rely on others 
for transportation particularly on a South Texas scortcher like today.

    It also has the potential to open up job possibilities 
previously not 
thought possible for the blind. Some of us have all ready imagined this 
technology being married to that used by airplane pilots to 
permit a blind 
person to pilot their own aircraft. Hence the airplane analogy 
is valid as 
some of the technology being developed for the car interface 
for the blind 
is all ready used to pilot airplanes. Others have also invisioned blind 
persons working as taxi drivers, bus drivers, railroad 
engineers, etc. I 
call upon you to explore the possibilities rather than 
rehashing many of the 
so-called reasons and excuses of why this will not work or why 
the blind 
shouldn't drive. We're supposed to be imaginators so let's act 
like it! We 
all have a right to disagree but when those disagreements cross 
the line and 
result in the destruction of the dreams, desires, and 
aspirations of those 
who imagine a future full of possibilities someone is going to 
sound the 
alarm and say, "Enough!" Thanks for listening and contemplating.

Peter Donahue



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 18:03:11 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 14:03:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <102149.85394.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <102149.85394.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA445DE5-BCF7-4ADD-AA6C-3904487CA90F@gmail.com>

I have never used iTunes under Windows, but on the Mac you just select the iPhone on the main window and you can change settings related to it. There are tabs for each type of content and you can select what you want to sink to the iPhone and what you don't. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:40 PM, William ODonnell <william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> How do you check on the settings?
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 8/6/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 12:17 PM
>> If you haven't changed the default
>> settings, purchased music should go into the iPhone just by
>> sinking it with your iTunes library. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Maurice Mines <minesm at me.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on a Windows
>> PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on occasion. I've
>> also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a matter of
>> fact. I believe the sinking works the same way in Windows as
>> it does on the Mac?
>>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William ODonnell wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Does anyone know how to take a song from the
>> purchaced list and put it in with the listed songs on the
>> iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is using Jaws 10
>> with ITunes 9. Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com
>>> 
>>> Maurice Mines
>>> minesm at me.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com


From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Fri Aug  6 21:12:34 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 17:12:34 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <CA445DE5-BCF7-4ADD-AA6C-3904487CA90F@gmail.com>
References: <102149.85394.qm@web30906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<CA445DE5-BCF7-4ADD-AA6C-3904487CA90F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100806171234.6j6nyffmsw4ccw4g@webmail.utoronto.ca>

HI there,
 From the Itunes sorce list, hit enter on the iphone. Press tab a  
number of times and change any settings you wish. Once back on the  
iphone, press tab until you hear "summary tab". Press right arrow to  
get to the ""Apps tab". Cycle through the options with tab and make  
any adjustments you wish. Once back on the "apps tab", press right  
arrow to get to the music tab. Tab through the options again. Repeat  
these steps until everything is the way you want. You'll want to make  
sure the check boxes are checked for the items you want to sync  
(music, movies, etc.), and that the "mannually manage music and  
videos" checkbox is unchecked.
I hope this helps. Also, there is a portable player mailing list where  
you can get help with mainstream devices known to be accessible (apple  
products, mp3 players, probably digital recorders, etc.), whose  
homepage is
http://www.freelists.org/list/portable-player
Have a good one,
Sarah


Quoting Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>:

> I have never used iTunes under Windows, but on the Mac you just   
> select the iPhone on the main window and you can change settings   
> related to it. There are tabs for each type of content and you can   
> select what you want to sink to the iPhone and what you don't.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:40 PM, William ODonnell   
> <william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> How do you check on the settings?
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 8/6/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"   
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 12:17 PM
>>> If you haven't changed the default
>>> settings, purchased music should go into the iPhone just by
>>> sinking it with your iTunes library.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Maurice Mines <minesm at me.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on a Windows
>>> PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on occasion. I've
>>> also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a matter of
>>> fact. I believe the sinking works the same way in Windows as
>>> it does on the Mac?
>>>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William ODonnell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know how to take a song from the
>>> purchaced list and put it in with the listed songs on the
>>> iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is using Jaws 10
>>> with ITunes 9. Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>>> your account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com
>>>>
>>>> Maurice Mines
>>>> minesm at me.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>





From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Aug  6 21:35:18 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 17:35:18 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} FW: A Big Step Forward for Accessible Phones,
	TV and Internet!
Message-ID: <8B78F787FFB14A4D9A4583FDFC8F65CC@Rufus>

Subject: A Big Step Forward for Accessible Phones, TV and Internet!



 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhouGs6dPjR5sT
mVDc4on-jSXB1f8wJ_exOKJUSx_vzeY4lR-iafvr8kIMIcTKDcu2ln9CH87Sg58WZx-IPPwxi45T
o3C9K9Bpc-myrtORnnfIibDCCD5iyxdV73poQ8mwtaQd3koy77Efw==> DVP Logo	



Senate passes S. 3304 !!

 "21st Century Communications and Video Accessiblity Act of 2010"


	
	



Congratulations to the Coalition of Organizations for Accessible Technology
(COAT) and AAPD's Jenifer Simpson for a job well done!


 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=> AAPD logo 
They beat the telecom and electronic media industries with this historic
legislation that will...
 

*	Require captioned television programs to be captioned when delivered
over the Internet. 

*	Authorize the FCC to require 7 hours per week of TV video
description on the top 4 network channels and top 5 cable channels
nationwide. 

*	Allocate up to $10 million per year for communications equipment
used by individuals who are deaf-blind. 

*	Require televised emergency information to be accessible to
individuals who are blind or have low vision. 

*	Require accessibility of advanced communications equipment and
services, such as text messaging and e-mail. 

*	Require access to Internet services that are built-in to mobile
telephone devices, like smart phones, if achievable. 

*	Require devices of any size to be capable of displaying closed
captioning, to deliver available video description, and to make emergency
information accessible. 

*	Require accessible user controls for televisions and set-top boxes,
and easy access to closed captioning and video description. 

*	And more!

 
S. 3304 now goes to the House of of Representatives where it is expected to
pass. If you have any questions regarding this legislation, contact Jenifer
Simpson at 202-457-0046.

About the Disability Vote Project
DVP works in a non-partisan manner to eliminate the barriers to voting and,
in close collaboration with coalition partners in states around the country,
to increase political participation for individuals with disabilities. DVP
aims to get people with disabilities registered to vote; strives to educate
them on how to get to their polling places and what their rights are at the
polling places; and works to make polling places accessible to voters with
all disabilities. 

 
About AAPD 
The American Association of People with Disabilities (AAPD) is the largest
national nonprofit cross-disability member organization in the United
States. It organizes the disability community to be a powerful force for
change - politically, economically, and socially - and recognizes the value
of working in broad coalitions to foster unity, leadership and impact.  AAPD
is dedicated to achieving total equality for and full participation of
people with disabilities in all aspects of society, recognizing that this is
the social justice issue of our time. 
	


AAPD
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=>  

James Dickson  <mailto:vote at aapd.com> 
Vice President for Organizing and Civic Engagement

 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=> AAPD logo
	
	

Forward email
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il.com&a=1103604446224> 
 
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Email Marketing <http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=press01>  by
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AAPD | 1629 K Street NW | Suite 950 | Washington | DC | 20006
 
<http://r20.rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1103604446224.0.1102224460486.525&ts=S0514&o=ht
tp://ui.constantcontact.com/images1/s.gif> 

From ccook01 at knology.net  Sat Aug  7 03:59:46 2010
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 23:59:46 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} FW: A Big Step Forward for Accessible
	Phones, TV and Internet!
In-Reply-To: <8B78F787FFB14A4D9A4583FDFC8F65CC@Rufus>
References: <8B78F787FFB14A4D9A4583FDFC8F65CC@Rufus>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAPimgd9JHzREvUyTkwMMSxzCgAAAEAAAANVWQD7AIShDjZXqwLOyBSoBAAAAAA==@knology.net>

this is wonderful news.


Corey Cook
Email
ccook01 at knology.net
Facebook
ccook01 at knology.net
Skype
coreym821


-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 5:35 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'; 'National Association of Blind Students
mailing list'
Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} FW: A Big Step Forward for Accessible Phones,
TV and Internet!

Subject: A Big Step Forward for Accessible Phones, TV and Internet!



 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhouGs6dPjR5sT
mVDc4on-jSXB1f8wJ_exOKJUSx_vzeY4lR-iafvr8kIMIcTKDcu2ln9CH87Sg58WZx-IPPwxi45T
o3C9K9Bpc-myrtORnnfIibDCCD5iyxdV73poQ8mwtaQd3koy77Efw==> DVP Logo	



Senate passes S. 3304 !!

 "21st Century Communications and Video Accessiblity Act of 2010"


	
	



Congratulations to the Coalition of Organizations for Accessible Technology
(COAT) and AAPD's Jenifer Simpson for a job well done!


 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=> AAPD logo 
They beat the telecom and electronic media industries with this historic
legislation that will...
 

*	Require captioned television programs to be captioned when delivered
over the Internet. 

*	Authorize the FCC to require 7 hours per week of TV video
description on the top 4 network channels and top 5 cable channels
nationwide. 

*	Allocate up to $10 million per year for communications equipment
used by individuals who are deaf-blind. 

*	Require televised emergency information to be accessible to
individuals who are blind or have low vision. 

*	Require accessibility of advanced communications equipment and
services, such as text messaging and e-mail. 

*	Require access to Internet services that are built-in to mobile
telephone devices, like smart phones, if achievable. 

*	Require devices of any size to be capable of displaying closed
captioning, to deliver available video description, and to make emergency
information accessible. 

*	Require accessible user controls for televisions and set-top boxes,
and easy access to closed captioning and video description. 

*	And more!

 
S. 3304 now goes to the House of of Representatives where it is expected to
pass. If you have any questions regarding this legislation, contact Jenifer
Simpson at 202-457-0046.

About the Disability Vote Project
DVP works in a non-partisan manner to eliminate the barriers to voting and,
in close collaboration with coalition partners in states around the country,
to increase political participation for individuals with disabilities. DVP
aims to get people with disabilities registered to vote; strives to educate
them on how to get to their polling places and what their rights are at the
polling places; and works to make polling places accessible to voters with
all disabilities. 

 
About AAPD 
The American Association of People with Disabilities (AAPD) is the largest
national nonprofit cross-disability member organization in the United
States. It organizes the disability community to be a powerful force for
change - politically, economically, and socially - and recognizes the value
of working in broad coalitions to foster unity, leadership and impact.  AAPD
is dedicated to achieving total equality for and full participation of
people with disabilities in all aspects of society, recognizing that this is
the social justice issue of our time. 
	


AAPD
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=>  

James Dickson  <mailto:vote at aapd.com> 
Vice President for Organizing and Civic Engagement

 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=> AAPD logo
	
	

Forward email
<http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?m=1102224460486&ea=jsorozco%40gma
il.com&a=1103604446224> 
 
<http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?v=001JhAH0M7VcWdWYIkgrPIsKKhOeeM7Y
DTR8-oh-6fc3RGcZyrtkAq6Hw%3D%3D&p=un> Safe Unsubscribe 

This email was sent to jsorozco at gmail.com by vote at aapd.com.
Update Profile/Email Address
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DTR8-oh-6fc3RGcZyrtkAq6Hw%3D%3D&p=oo>  | Instant removal with
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<http://ui.constantcontact.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp> .
Email Marketing <http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=press01>  by
 <http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=press01>  
AAPD | 1629 K Street NW | Suite 950 | Washington | DC | 20006
 
<http://r20.rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1103604446224.0.1102224460486.525&ts=S0514&o=ht
tp://ui.constantcontact.com/images1/s.gif> 
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From ccook01 at knology.net  Sat Aug  7 04:09:57 2010
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 00:09:57 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} FW: A Big Step Forward for Accessible
	Phones, TV and Internet!
In-Reply-To: <8B78F787FFB14A4D9A4583FDFC8F65CC@Rufus>
References: <8B78F787FFB14A4D9A4583FDFC8F65CC@Rufus>
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAPimgd9JHzREvUyTkwMMSxzCgAAAEAAAAM3Q9kdt+V1Jj112MF/DUEsBAAAAAA==@knology.net>

This might be a bit off topic, but my only thought as wonderful as the news
is.
How can this be inforced, and to what level of accessibility will this be
carried out?
I am happy to say as someone who works in the cellphone industry that Google
and Apple seem to be a little ahead of the curve.


Corey Cook
Email
ccook01 at knology.net
Facebook
ccook01 at knology.net
Skype
coreym821


-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 5:35 PM
To: 'NFBnet Blind Law Mailing List'; 'National Association of Blind Students
mailing list'
Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} FW: A Big Step Forward for Accessible Phones,
TV and Internet!

Subject: A Big Step Forward for Accessible Phones, TV and Internet!



 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhouGs6dPjR5sT
mVDc4on-jSXB1f8wJ_exOKJUSx_vzeY4lR-iafvr8kIMIcTKDcu2ln9CH87Sg58WZx-IPPwxi45T
o3C9K9Bpc-myrtORnnfIibDCCD5iyxdV73poQ8mwtaQd3koy77Efw==> DVP Logo	



Senate passes S. 3304 !!

 "21st Century Communications and Video Accessiblity Act of 2010"


	
	



Congratulations to the Coalition of Organizations for Accessible Technology
(COAT) and AAPD's Jenifer Simpson for a job well done!


 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=> AAPD logo 
They beat the telecom and electronic media industries with this historic
legislation that will...
 

*	Require captioned television programs to be captioned when delivered
over the Internet. 

*	Authorize the FCC to require 7 hours per week of TV video
description on the top 4 network channels and top 5 cable channels
nationwide. 

*	Allocate up to $10 million per year for communications equipment
used by individuals who are deaf-blind. 

*	Require televised emergency information to be accessible to
individuals who are blind or have low vision. 

*	Require accessibility of advanced communications equipment and
services, such as text messaging and e-mail. 

*	Require access to Internet services that are built-in to mobile
telephone devices, like smart phones, if achievable. 

*	Require devices of any size to be capable of displaying closed
captioning, to deliver available video description, and to make emergency
information accessible. 

*	Require accessible user controls for televisions and set-top boxes,
and easy access to closed captioning and video description. 

*	And more!

 
S. 3304 now goes to the House of of Representatives where it is expected to
pass. If you have any questions regarding this legislation, contact Jenifer
Simpson at 202-457-0046.

About the Disability Vote Project
DVP works in a non-partisan manner to eliminate the barriers to voting and,
in close collaboration with coalition partners in states around the country,
to increase political participation for individuals with disabilities. DVP
aims to get people with disabilities registered to vote; strives to educate
them on how to get to their polling places and what their rights are at the
polling places; and works to make polling places accessible to voters with
all disabilities. 

 
About AAPD 
The American Association of People with Disabilities (AAPD) is the largest
national nonprofit cross-disability member organization in the United
States. It organizes the disability community to be a powerful force for
change - politically, economically, and socially - and recognizes the value
of working in broad coalitions to foster unity, leadership and impact.  AAPD
is dedicated to achieving total equality for and full participation of
people with disabilities in all aspects of society, recognizing that this is
the social justice issue of our time. 
	


AAPD
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=>  

James Dickson  <mailto:vote at aapd.com> 
Vice President for Organizing and Civic Engagement

 
<http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1103604446224&s=525&e=001mUOgXSZlhotpyq0cqsot7
RQWaY85vo5JYIaRdjW5Dx3FlSGGoZnwHlD7uS0PSe7lxfYtRGPlhSWSTp8-syNhRg97x1VKm8wSn
zafnB_4FUQ=> AAPD logo
	
	

Forward email
<http://ui.constantcontact.com/sa/fwtf.jsp?m=1102224460486&ea=jsorozco%40gma
il.com&a=1103604446224> 
 
<http://visitor.constantcontact.com/d.jsp?v=001JhAH0M7VcWdWYIkgrPIsKKhOeeM7Y
DTR8-oh-6fc3RGcZyrtkAq6Hw%3D%3D&p=un> Safe Unsubscribe 

This email was sent to jsorozco at gmail.com by vote at aapd.com.
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<http://ui.constantcontact.com/roving/CCPrivacyPolicy.jsp> .
Email Marketing <http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=press01>  by
 <http://www.constantcontact.com/index.jsp?cc=press01>  
AAPD | 1629 K Street NW | Suite 950 | Washington | DC | 20006
 
<http://r20.rs6.net/on.jsp?t=1103604446224.0.1102224460486.525&ts=S0514&o=ht
tp://ui.constantcontact.com/images1/s.gif> 
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From ccook01 at knology.net  Sat Aug  7 05:41:32 2010
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 01:41:32 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Update and question
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAPimgd9JHzREvUyTkwMMSxzCgAAAEAAAAPii2RqwiVlAqATFQIki2QQBAAAAAA==@knology.net>

Hello all, 
Just an update on my online learning experience so far.
I am in my second class, at the University of Phoenix. Iave pretty much
decided that I went for the wrong program.. Information systems are not my
cup of tea as far as the design and development of them. Currently I am
looking at my options as I know I do want my masters degree.
I am also considering changing schools as I am not happy with the university
of Phoenix.


Corey Cook
Email
ccook01 at knology.net
Facebook
ccook01 at knology.net
Skype
coreym821





From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 17:28:15 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:28:15 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Note for sale
Message-ID: <FA4A64CFEA434FC7B7747D07E9B29DDE@Espy>

I realize this is not a "swap shop" list, but since this device is used by many students, I figured I'd post it here. It's a good price if you're looking for a good note taker.
    For Sale: BN MPower BT 18 w/ Sendero GPS running latest build of Keysoft. This machine is in great condition. It was recently sent to Humanware for a cleaning and a new battery was installed several months ago. Hasn't been used  much since then. This machine has Sendero  GPS version  5. The Braille note will be packaged with Braille manual, AC adaptors, CFCard that came with  GPS with maps of Maine. (Other US maps can be downloaded free of charge). The receiver is a GPSSLIM 236 I believe- it's the receiver that was packaged with the gps at the time version 5 was released.   This Machine also comes with the wireless  card as well as the ethernet card.
Am asking $1,750. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me off-list. I accept paypal only. The reason I'm selling it is because I rarely use it anymore.
Thanks.
Hope Paulos



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5348 (20100806) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


From bwbddl at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  7 17:40:17 2010
From: bwbddl at yahoo.com (Debby B)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 12:40:17 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] For Sale-BrailleNoteQT, 32 cell
Message-ID: <auto-000166013424@mailfront1.g2host.com>


Winona is ready to sell her BrailleNote QT, with 32 cell display. It is in
excellent, like-new condition, complete with case, Braille and print user
guides, cords, connectors, etc, all in the original box. Purchased 
December, 2007, used
the balance of that school year.

Asking $2,500. Please contact us at 
<mailto:bwbddl at yahoo.com>bwbddl at yahoo.com if interested, or for more
information.
Thanks!
Winona and Debby Brackett
<mailto:bwbddl at yahoo.com>bwbddl at yahoo.com


From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Aug  7 20:16:51 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2010 15:16:51 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] 2011 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium
Message-ID: <auto-000163483179@mailfront2.g2host.com>


>
>Plans are well underway for the 2011 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law
>Symposium, "Bridging the Gap between the Civil Rights Movements and the
>Disability Rights Movement."  The 2011 symposium will be co-hosted by
>the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute and the American
>Association of People with Disabilities.
>
>
>
>Mark your calendar to attend the Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law
>Symposium at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute on
>April 14-15, 2011.  The symposium will conclude at approximately 12:30
>PM on Friday, April 15.
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the law symposium Web page at
>http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp
><http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp>  during the coming months for
>agenda, registration, and hotel information.  You will also find links
>to recordings of the 2008, 2009, and 2010 symposia on this Web page.
>
>
>
>The proceedings of the 2010 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium,
>held this past April, will be published by the Burton Blatt Institute.
>Additional information on availability of the proceedings will be
>included on the symposium Web page in the near future.  To view online
>the full text articles from the 2008 symposium volume or to purchase the
>2009 symposium volume, go to the Texas Journal on Civil Liberties and
>Civil Rights Web site at:
>http://www.utexas.edu/law/publications/issn/tjclcr/tjclcr_info.html.
>
>
>
>For additional information about the Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law
>Symposium, please contact:
>
>
>
>Lou Ann Blake, J.D.
>
>Law Symposium Coordinator
>Jacobus tenBroek Library
>Jernigan Institute
>NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
>200 East Wells Street
>     at Jernigan Place
>Baltimore, MD 21230
>Telephone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2221
>Fax: (410) 659-5129
>E-mail: lblake at nfb.org <mailto:lblake at nfb.org>
>Web site: www.nfb.org <http://www.nfb.org/>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 21:39:06 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 14:39:06 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
In-Reply-To: <BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
Message-ID: <94EF42F3-E932-4FD5-924C-E2063E181D0D@gmail.com>

Actually I already emailed the company and they said they would look in to it, the same wiht apple. i don't think this would happen over night but it is a push in the right direction.
On Aug 3, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote:

> Before we get all excited about Sarai's link, and company, project, I would ask if anyone has seen a prototype.
> 
> Ideas are great, but realistic ones are worth one's pursuit and energy.
> 
> If there really were the one page display for less than the cost of a used car, it would be out already. I don't think adaptive technology companies could keep the developments from unfolding right under our fingers.
> 
> Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies and fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable solutions.
> 
> Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.
> 
> Student, Western Governors University
> (617) 744-9716
> Eastern time zone
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Alawami" <marrie12 at gmail.com>
> To: "nabs list list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 10:02 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] an idea for a 1 page braille display
> 
> 
>> Have you ever thought of having a 1 page braille display that cost about 600  dollars? My goal here is to try and have a company called ESense trying incorporate this new technology in to the IPad or even an IPhone. Here is the link to the article.
>> 
>> http://www.senseg.com/technology/faq/
>> I've sent an email to apple accessibility regarding this too. Here are the 2 emails I've contacted. I encourage you to do the same.
>> 
>> accessibility at apple.com
>> and
>> info at senseg.com
>> 
>> Take care all.
>> 
>> S
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  7 21:43:15 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 14:43:15 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com>
	<BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb>
	<21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus>
	<AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com>
	<CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <43F8C401-D34D-4BC8-AEB0-ABFBD81EB527@gmail.com>

You pseak true. I want to have a car I can get in to and drive someware weather to run away or to go shoping. Now I can't wait for this to happen, but I am worried by one thing.

I got hit by a car last year and i tried hard to voat this down because of that. I don't want that responcibility on my shoulders.


On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:37 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> Man...no.  What if I wanna drag race, or do doughnuts in the middle of
> the road, or something like that?  I'm not sure an autonomous computer
> would let me be a risky driver like that.  But- in all seriousness,
> I'm not sure there's any substitute for the human brain.  I really
> wouldn't trust any computer, no matter how advanced, to drive me any
> place.  Because, all the computing power in the world can't make up
> for human intuition and reasoning.  I suppose avoiding obstacles and
> the like would be possible with a computer driving you, but I think
> there are situations on a road that require more complex problem
> solving ability than that.  And- pardon my silliness, but where's the
> fun in letting a computer drive you any place?  To me that almost
> defeats the purpose of driving.  Just sayin.  :)
> Hope everyone's doing well,
> Kirt
> 
> On 8/5/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In my opinion, a car that drives itself would be the best option. Eliminate
>> human error from the equation. I don't just mean for blind drivers, but for
>> everyone. Have your own personal Cray supercomputer under the hood along
>> with the engine. Lol. But in all seriousness the computing power required to
>> have a truly autonomous vehicle would be staggering.
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 5:25 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
>> 
>> 
>>> Absolutely- but, 50 years ago, the technology for computers and the
>>> internet was still conceivable, although not available.  To me, the
>>> hardest part would be getting a system which could show us everything
>>> a sighted person could see on the road, and give us enough time to
>>> react acordingly.  (we're talking split-second things here, stuff
>>> sighted peoples' brains see and process practicly instantaneously)  I
>>> think, if such an interface is possible, it's a long, long way off.
>>> That being said, I'm all for what's happening with the blind driver
>>> challenge and the race for independence.  That could be what we need
>>> to make those technologies possible, and who knows what else could
>>> come from it.  I just don't see me driving in ten, twenty, even fifty
>>> years.  Maybe never.  But I hope to be proven wrong.  By all means, as
>>> long as the money and resources are available for this kind of
>>> research, and it seems to me they very much are, why the heck not?
>>> 
>>> On 8/5/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I also think it's a good idea, just because whether we end up making a
>>>> car
>>>> that we can drive or not, we will certainly learn something out of it. It
>>>> 
>>>> is
>>>> true that these days blind people are doing things which seemed
>>>> impossible
>>>> only 50 years ago. I wonder how many people in the 60s thought that it
>>>> was
>>>> possible to create a computer, and how many of those people thought it
>>>> was
>>>> possible to have a blind person use that computer independently like we
>>>> do
>>>> now. By then, it must have felt pretty much as impossible as driving a
>>>> car
>>>> feels now. I don't know if they'll get anything useful out of it, but
>>>> technologies invented in order to make that car will certainly be useful
>>>> in
>>>> the future, both for blind and sighted people.
>>>> On Aug 4, 2010, at 4:14 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I think the race for independence is a great idea.  Will it end up
>>>>> producing a car we can actually drive- who can say?  But I see nothing
>>>>> wrong with trying.  I confess to being, even after convention, a bit
>>>>> skeptical of a car that I could drive.  It sounds great on paper- but
>>>>> that's a whole heck of a lot of technology to depend on.  (you're
>>>>> talking cameras, laser sensors, and the interface to efficiently show
>>>>> a blind driver everything a sighted person's brain unconsciously
>>>>> processes in a matter of miliseconds)  I'm no expert, and I certainly
>>>>> hope future developments prove me wrong, but I just don't see how it's
>>>>> going to work.  Does anyone have any information, other than what we
>>>>> heard at onvention, about the specific technologies that could be
>>>>> involved?  I'd be very interested.  Thanks and I appologize for the
>>>>> rambling post.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 8/3/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Something Antonio mentioned in his last post got me thinking about
>>>>>> something.  Antonio said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Let's support work to develop useful, cheaper, and better technologies
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> fully investigate something before becoming spoke persons for unviable
>>>>>> solutions.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I guess this is my sentiment as it relates to this whole project
>>>>>> devoted
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> cars for the blind.  If the topic's already been discussed, I totally
>>>>>> missed
>>>>>> it, but what do people generally think about it?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 00:59:48 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 17:59:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <20100806171234.6j6nyffmsw4ccw4g@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <412500.80506.qm@web30907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thanks.


--- On Fri, 8/6/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:

> From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 5:12 PM
> HI there,
> From the Itunes sorce list, hit enter on the iphone. Press
> tab a number of times and change any settings you wish. Once
> back on the iphone, press tab until you hear "summary tab".
> Press right arrow to get to the ""Apps tab". Cycle through
> the options with tab and make any adjustments you wish. Once
> back on the "apps tab", press right arrow to get to the
> music tab. Tab through the options again. Repeat these steps
> until everything is the way you want. You'll want to make
> sure the check boxes are checked for the items you want to
> sync (music, movies, etc.), and that the "mannually manage
> music and videos" checkbox is unchecked.
> I hope this helps. Also, there is a portable player mailing
> list where you can get help with mainstream devices known to
> be accessible (apple products, mp3 players, probably digital
> recorders, etc.), whose homepage is
> http://www.freelists.org/list/portable-player
> Have a good one,
> Sarah
> 
> 
> Quoting Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>:
> 
> > I have never used iTunes under Windows, but on the Mac
> you just  select the iPhone on the main window and you
> can change settings  related to it. There are tabs for
> each type of content and you can  select what you want
> to sink to the iPhone and what you don't.
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > 
> > On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:40 PM, William ODonnell 
> <william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > 
> >> How do you check on the settings?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --- On Fri, 8/6/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list"  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 12:17 PM
> >>> If you haven't changed the default
> >>> settings, purchased music should go into the
> iPhone just by
> >>> sinking it with your iTunes library.
> >>> 
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>> 
> >>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Maurice Mines
> <minesm at me.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on
> a Windows
> >>> PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on
> occasion. I've
> >>> also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a
> matter of
> >>> fact. I believe the sinking works the same way
> in Windows as
> >>> it does on the Mac?
> >>>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William
> ODonnell wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Does anyone know how to take a song
> from the
> >>> purchaced list and put it in with the listed
> songs on the
> >>> iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is
> using Jaws 10
> >>> with ITunes 9. Thanks.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or get
> >>> your account info for nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com
> >>>> 
> >>>> Maurice Mines
> >>>> minesm at me.com
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
> or get your
> >>> account info for nabs-l:
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> >>> 
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
> get your
> >>> account info for nabs-l:
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info  for nabs-l:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Sun Aug  8 02:27:07 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 19:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <20100806171234.6j6nyffmsw4ccw4g@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <741997.26437.qm@web30907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Is this on a windows PC??
When I do this, no settings come up, it togels between the apps option, iphone, and music; however, no other options for settings exist.


--- On Fri, 8/6/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:

> From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 5:12 PM
> HI there,
> From the Itunes sorce list, hit enter on the iphone. Press
> tab a number of times and change any settings you wish. Once
> back on the iphone, press tab until you hear "summary tab".
> Press right arrow to get to the ""Apps tab". Cycle through
> the options with tab and make any adjustments you wish. Once
> back on the "apps tab", press right arrow to get to the
> music tab. Tab through the options again. Repeat these steps
> until everything is the way you want. You'll want to make
> sure the check boxes are checked for the items you want to
> sync (music, movies, etc.), and that the "mannually manage
> music and videos" checkbox is unchecked.
> I hope this helps. Also, there is a portable player mailing
> list where you can get help with mainstream devices known to
> be accessible (apple products, mp3 players, probably digital
> recorders, etc.), whose homepage is
> http://www.freelists.org/list/portable-player
> Have a good one,
> Sarah
> 
> 
> Quoting Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>:
> 
> > I have never used iTunes under Windows, but on the Mac
> you just  select the iPhone on the main window and you
> can change settings  related to it. There are tabs for
> each type of content and you can  select what you want
> to sink to the iPhone and what you don't.
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > 
> > On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:40 PM, William ODonnell 
> <william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > 
> >> How do you check on the settings?
> >> 
> >> 
> >> --- On Fri, 8/6/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list"  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 12:17 PM
> >>> If you haven't changed the default
> >>> settings, purchased music should go into the
> iPhone just by
> >>> sinking it with your iTunes library.
> >>> 
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>> 
> >>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Maurice Mines
> <minesm at me.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on
> a Windows
> >>> PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on
> occasion. I've
> >>> also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a
> matter of
> >>> fact. I believe the sinking works the same way
> in Windows as
> >>> it does on the Mac?
> >>>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William
> ODonnell wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Does anyone know how to take a song
> from the
> >>> purchaced list and put it in with the listed
> songs on the
> >>> iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is
> using Jaws 10
> >>> with ITunes 9. Thanks.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
> options or get
> >>> your account info for nabs-l:
> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com
> >>>> 
> >>>> Maurice Mines
> >>>> minesm at me.com
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
> or get your
> >>> account info for nabs-l:
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> >>> 
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
> get your
> >>> account info for nabs-l:
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info  for nabs-l:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Sun Aug  8 04:31:35 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2010 00:31:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] ITunes:
In-Reply-To: <741997.26437.qm@web30907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <741997.26437.qm@web30907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100808003135.4ytoxgd1c0s4444c@webmail.utoronto.ca>

I have windows. Perhaps I've directed you to the wrong spot? Write me  
off list.


Quoting William ODonnell <william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com>:

> Is this on a windows PC??
> When I do this, no settings come up, it togels between the apps   
> option, iphone, and music; however, no other options for settings   
> exist.
>
>
> --- On Fri, 8/6/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca   
> <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
>> From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 5:12 PM
>> HI there,
>> From the Itunes sorce list, hit enter on the iphone. Press
>> tab a number of times and change any settings you wish. Once
>> back on the iphone, press tab until you hear "summary tab".
>> Press right arrow to get to the ""Apps tab". Cycle through
>> the options with tab and make any adjustments you wish. Once
>> back on the "apps tab", press right arrow to get to the
>> music tab. Tab through the options again. Repeat these steps
>> until everything is the way you want. You'll want to make
>> sure the check boxes are checked for the items you want to
>> sync (music, movies, etc.), and that the "mannually manage
>> music and videos" checkbox is unchecked.
>> I hope this helps. Also, there is a portable player mailing
>> list where you can get help with mainstream devices known to
>> be accessible (apple products, mp3 players, probably digital
>> recorders, etc.), whose homepage is
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/portable-player
>> Have a good one,
>> Sarah
>>
>>
>> Quoting Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>:
>>
>> > I have never used iTunes under Windows, but on the Mac
>> you just  select the iPhone on the main window and you
>> can change settings  related to it. There are tabs for
>> each type of content and you can  select what you want
>> to sink to the iPhone and what you don't.
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:40 PM, William ODonnell 
>> <william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> How do you check on the settings?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- On Fri, 8/6/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> From: Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] ITunes:
>> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students
>> mailing list"  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> >>> Date: Friday, August 6, 2010, 12:17 PM
>> >>> If you haven't changed the default
>> >>> settings, purchased music should go into the
>> iPhone just by
>> >>> sinking it with your iTunes library.
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:48 PM, Maurice Mines
>> <minesm at me.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> You tried syncing your iPod with iTunes on
>> a Windows
>> >>> PC? I am a Mac user, but I do use Windows on
>> occasion. I've
>> >>> also tested iTunes and Windows using Jaws is a
>> matter of
>> >>> fact. I believe the sinking works the same way
>> in Windows as
>> >>> it does on the Mac?
>> >>>> On Aug 5, 2010, at 6:14 PM, William
>> ODonnell wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Does anyone know how to take a song
>> from the
>> >>> purchaced list and put it in with the listed
>> songs on the
>> >>> iPod on an Iphone 3 or 4?  The user is
>> using Jaws 10
>> >>> with ITunes 9. Thanks.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list
>> options or get
>> >>> your account info for nabs-l:
>> >>>>>   
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minesm%40me.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Maurice Mines
>> >>>> minesm at me.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>> or get your
>> >>> account info for nabs-l:
>> >>>>   
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
>> get your
>> >>> account info for nabs-l:
>> >>>   
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> nabs-l mailing list
>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
>> your account info  for nabs-l:
>> >>   
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> >   
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>





From brice.smith319 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 20:08:48 2010
From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:08:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] 50/50 NFB Canes
Message-ID: <AANLkTik=7Uk6zOpRY8=Bk_dXoo2edQ-i6XbJTRqc98A4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Does anyone here have experience with or use an NFB 50/50 cane?

I've occasionally heard they're unstable and not worth the purchase,
but I don't know how reliable that information is. I'd think they'd be
more reliable than the very disappointing telescoping canes given they
only fold in two sections and they would seem like a nice compromise
between a long nonfolding model and one that folds in many small
pieces. Do they live up to expectation or should I just stick with the
regular NFB straight cane? If they're worth using, which material do
you prefer -- carbon fiber or fiberglass?

Thanks for any thoughts or opinions.

- Brice


From marsha.drenth at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 20:53:48 2010
From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:53:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] 50/50 NFB Canes
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=7Uk6zOpRY8=Bk_dXoo2edQ-i6XbJTRqc98A4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=7Uk6zOpRY8=Bk_dXoo2edQ-i6XbJTRqc98A4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90D9BE13BE1041A68FF528E8667D2AA3@Cptr233>

Bryce,

I purchased a 50/50 cane at the last national convention. I like the 50/50
canes, because as you stated the telescoping canes are just not stable. When
I was at convention I used my 50/50 cane. But within a few days of using it,
the screw that holds the elastic came out and got stuck in the top piece.
Once I was able to fish the elastic out, I found someone with super glue. I
then super glued the screw into the lower piece, so that now the screw won't
come out, and thus being able to fold the cane. And the elastic stays into
place. This is just what I did. I would be careful if you were going to
super glue it, that all the super glue only goes into the lower part of the
cane, as if there is any left over and it is connected to the top part, it
will become a straight cane. After super gluing, I did not unfold it, make
it straight for a good while so the glue could dry. I don't remember which
type of cane I got, but its very very sturdy. 

HTH
Marsha



-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Brice Smith
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 4:09 PM
To: nabs-L at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] 50/50 NFB Canes

Hi,

Does anyone here have experience with or use an NFB 50/50 cane?

I've occasionally heard they're unstable and not worth the purchase,
but I don't know how reliable that information is. I'd think they'd be
more reliable than the very disappointing telescoping canes given they
only fold in two sections and they would seem like a nice compromise
between a long nonfolding model and one that folds in many small
pieces. Do they live up to expectation or should I just stick with the
regular NFB straight cane? If they're worth using, which material do
you prefer -- carbon fiber or fiberglass?

Thanks for any thoughts or opinions.

- Brice

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
l.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5349 (20100807) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5349 (20100807) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 21:52:48 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 17:52:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] The AudioShockWave Radio Network Has Launched And The Djd
	Invasion Airs Tonight
Message-ID: <30290AB25B2940C4A3F4BD463B0B3E76@radio360usa>

Hi!
After tonight's conference call, perhaps some of you will be interested in checking out the following:
Hi All!
I am very excited to announce that ShockWaveRadio is going to be building a network of small or maybe not so small radio stations that you can access at any time of the day or night.
Looking for different types of programming? Looking for different personalities?
This network will aim to provide you just that. Think of us as the radio you can turn on using your computer, and jump to various sites and streams on our network carrying various types of content.
At approximately 4 PM eastern, this network will be launching, and we are happy to invite and welcome our first sister station to join the network, AudioMirrorFM!
Led by a talented and very dymamic duo from England, AudioMirrorFM aims to provide to you radio the way it should be. All types of music, passionate broadcasters, exciting programming are just some of the things you'll be getting.
And we'll be carrying some of their fine content on ShockWaveRadio, as we will some of there great shows!
AudioMirrorFM is scheduled to launch at approximately 4 PM eastern, at the same time as our network will grow.
The web site
http://www.audioshockwavenetwork.com
will be launching at around that time also, so that you can
Find out about what channels you can listen to
Listen to a random channel from that page to hear what's going on
Join our network and or stations if interested
And more...
I am very excited about partnering with the fine people from AudioMirrorFM, and I think you as listeners will reep the benefits of our fine partnership and network.
So stay tuned to your twitters, follow
shockwaveradio1
and
audiomirrorfm
on twitter for more details.
The AudioMirrorFM site once it launches can be found at
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
Stay tuned, great things are coming, for tonight's the night, it'll be alright, for nothing's gonna stop us now!
>From David and The ShockWaveRadio And AudioMirrorFM Teams

From kc2992a at student.american.edu  Sun Aug  8 22:28:45 2010
From: kc2992a at student.american.edu (Katy Carroll)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 18:28:45 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] 50/50 NFB Canes
In-Reply-To: <90D9BE13BE1041A68FF528E8667D2AA3@Cptr233>
References: <AANLkTik=7Uk6zOpRY8=Bk_dXoo2edQ-i6XbJTRqc98A4@mail.gmail.com>
	<90D9BE13BE1041A68FF528E8667D2AA3@Cptr233>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin2jJcV6QMnNjzwMuUEJTMFmdmT8rzJ9v8jXRzM@mail.gmail.com>

I bought a 50/50 cane and I unhappy that there is nothing to secure the cane
when fold the cane.
Kate



On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Marsha Drenth <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>wrote:

> Bryce,
>
> I purchased a 50/50 cane at the last national convention. I like the 50/50
> canes, because as you stated the telescoping canes are just not stable.
> When
> I was at convention I used my 50/50 cane. But within a few days of using
> it,
> the screw that holds the elastic came out and got stuck in the top piece.
> Once I was able to fish the elastic out, I found someone with super glue. I
> then super glued the screw into the lower piece, so that now the screw
> won't
> come out, and thus being able to fold the cane. And the elastic stays into
> place. This is just what I did. I would be careful if you were going to
> super glue it, that all the super glue only goes into the lower part of the
> cane, as if there is any left over and it is connected to the top part, it
> will become a straight cane. After super gluing, I did not unfold it, make
> it straight for a good while so the glue could dry. I don't remember which
> type of cane I got, but its very very sturdy.
>
> HTH
> Marsha
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Brice Smith
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 4:09 PM
> To: nabs-L at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] 50/50 NFB Canes
>
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone here have experience with or use an NFB 50/50 cane?
>
> I've occasionally heard they're unstable and not worth the purchase,
> but I don't know how reliable that information is. I'd think they'd be
> more reliable than the very disappointing telescoping canes given they
> only fold in two sections and they would seem like a nice compromise
> between a long nonfolding model and one that folds in many small
> pieces. Do they live up to expectation or should I just stick with the
> regular NFB straight cane? If they're worth using, which material do
> you prefer -- carbon fiber or fiberglass?
>
> Thanks for any thoughts or opinions.
>
> - Brice
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
> l.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai%0Al.com>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 5349 (20100807) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature
> database 5349 (20100807) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu
>



-- 
Kathryn CARROLL
BlueLaw International LLP
703-647-7508
Cell: 631-521-3018

From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sun Aug  8 23:37:13 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 19:37:13 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] 50/50 NFB Canes
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin2jJcV6QMnNjzwMuUEJTMFmdmT8rzJ9v8jXRzM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=7Uk6zOpRY8=Bk_dXoo2edQ-i6XbJTRqc98A4@mail.gmail.com>
	<90D9BE13BE1041A68FF528E8667D2AA3@Cptr233>
	<AANLkTin2jJcV6QMnNjzwMuUEJTMFmdmT8rzJ9v8jXRzM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=4h+xwLbWNO3xHwNzs9oW7hP6y4utTHaSEKgQo@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Brice,

I have a NFB 50/50 cane. I got it in May. It is fiberglass. I think it
is a great comporomise between a long white cane and a folding cane.
However, I did notice a problem with the cap after a few weeks, and
then the cap broke off. The caps are so inexpensive that I don't think
that's a major issue and the cane works just fine even with a broken
cap, but I don't use it for fear of getting fiberglass splinters in my
hand. I just haven't gotten around to getting a new cap. I think it
broke because of rough handling (I'm used to an aluminum folding
cane), so I'll have to learn to be a little less rough with this cane.

I'm going to order a new cap as soon as I get my replacement debit
card in (my purse got stolen *sigh*). After I get a new cap, if you'd
like, you're welcome to come take a look at it and try it out if you
want. It is very light and comfortable. I'd rather have a grip, but I
know NFB canes don't have grips. I've considered making one for it
from leather, though.

Give me a call if you want to take a look at it. Once school starts,
I'll be available every Tuesday and Thursday, and some weekend days,
so just call and we'll set up a time or something.

~Jewel Shuping

On 8/8/10, Katy Carroll <kc2992a at student.american.edu> wrote:
> I bought a 50/50 cane and I unhappy that there is nothing to secure the cane
> when fold the cane.
> Kate
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Marsha Drenth
> <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Bryce,
>>
>> I purchased a 50/50 cane at the last national convention. I like the 50/50
>> canes, because as you stated the telescoping canes are just not stable.
>> When
>> I was at convention I used my 50/50 cane. But within a few days of using
>> it,
>> the screw that holds the elastic came out and got stuck in the top piece.
>> Once I was able to fish the elastic out, I found someone with super glue.
>> I
>> then super glued the screw into the lower piece, so that now the screw
>> won't
>> come out, and thus being able to fold the cane. And the elastic stays into
>> place. This is just what I did. I would be careful if you were going to
>> super glue it, that all the super glue only goes into the lower part of
>> the
>> cane, as if there is any left over and it is connected to the top part, it
>> will become a straight cane. After super gluing, I did not unfold it, make
>> it straight for a good while so the glue could dry. I don't remember which
>> type of cane I got, but its very very sturdy.
>>
>> HTH
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Brice Smith
>> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 4:09 PM
>> To: nabs-L at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] 50/50 NFB Canes
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Does anyone here have experience with or use an NFB 50/50 cane?
>>
>> I've occasionally heard they're unstable and not worth the purchase,
>> but I don't know how reliable that information is. I'd think they'd be
>> more reliable than the very disappointing telescoping canes given they
>> only fold in two sections and they would seem like a nice compromise
>> between a long nonfolding model and one that folds in many small
>> pieces. Do they live up to expectation or should I just stick with the
>> regular NFB straight cane? If they're worth using, which material do
>> you prefer -- carbon fiber or fiberglass?
>>
>> Thanks for any thoughts or opinions.
>>
>> - Brice
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
>> l.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai%0Al.com>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5349 (20100807) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5349 (20100807) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kathryn CARROLL
> BlueLaw International LLP
> 703-647-7508
> Cell: 631-521-3018
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 18:30:59 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 11:30:59 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] please remember to text your vote for youth slam!
Message-ID: <AANLkTikunDYfYOAjxSOpBtGrR0KQf9rfPs4PhkxPgHKH@mail.gmail.com>

Hey fellow nabsters!

  I just texted my vote (101913) for nfb  youth slam to  PEPSI
(73774)!   it's real easy to do and takes practically no time  to do,
yet will benifit many many blind youth from all over the country.  You
can ask any  past participant or mentor about how amazing of  a
project  youth slam is  and what  an amazing oppertunity this  can be
if we do our part to make sure  youth slam is one of the top two vote
getters in the pepsi refresh everything project!
 Rumor has it we are right around number thirty in rankings and with
all of us students and our amazing ability to text, we can help change
that ranking in short order!
 So, lets work together in making youth slam 2011 a reality!

 Working  with you always for the common goal,
  Darian




-- 
Darian Smith
  Board member/ membership co-chair
National Association of Blind Students
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com  Mon Aug  9 18:34:49 2010
From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 14:34:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] 50-50 cane....
Message-ID: <AANLkTimCdBgFsFVM2jURqFhFHr1TbwcTi9PURSXVZGmp@mail.gmail.com>

HI, this is what you need to know about 50-50 canes.

1.	The rubber band and cap will snap off.
2.	 If this happens, after extensive use, the two pieces of the cane
might easily slip out of each other. Be careful, as this might cause
an accident, or you might drop one half and not be able to get it
back.
3.	 Other than the rubber band and cap, these canes are very sturdy.
If you can manage to glue the pieces on, or simply use the cane
without the elastic band, it will be very dependable, as it will not
easily snap, and it can be stored with relative ease.
4.	They are not as light as the telescoping canes, but they are
definitely lighter than aluminum canes.
5.	 They have a decent bounce to them and give back pretty useful feedback.
6.	 Again, the rubber band and cap will break.

Alex


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Mon Aug  9 19:26:40 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 14:26:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <AANLkTikunDYfYOAjxSOpBtGrR0KQf9rfPs4PhkxPgHKH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01cb37f8$cc07ee40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good afternoon everyone,

    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding from 
Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't have 
talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop applications 
that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a cell 
phone and how usable are they by the blind?

    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site 
security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our votes 
from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any CAPTCHAS 
for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the 
Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site 
accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.

Peter and Mary Donahue 



From missheather at comcast.net  Tue Aug 10 00:43:30 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:43:30 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <AANLkTikunDYfYOAjxSOpBtGrR0KQf9rfPs4PhkxPgHKH@mail.gmail.com>
	<001e01cb37f8$cc07ee40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <4737E74AAA5642ED942F86D59F11ACD0@heathersony>

go to.
www.txtdrop.com
totally accessible
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>; 
"NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:26 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Good afternoon everyone,

    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive 
funding from
Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't 
have
talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop 
applications
that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a 
cell
phone and how usable are they by the blind?

    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web 
site
security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our 
votes
from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any 
CAPTCHAS
for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see 
the
Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.

Peter and Mary Donahue


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 




From freethaught at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 01:16:33 2010
From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 21:16:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind
References: <781E3A86-1190-43E0-85D7-5C9BE11280F9@gmail.com><BA379FA395F44F65A612DDD4177645FE@userf9b4fa60eb><21BE2D843B724957818995644FBBE05A@Rufus><AANLkTinR1m0so9NEiSyGp1RGV99EJh78GcAnSWK2Db0g@mail.gmail.com><7A77B5F5-7222-4D24-84B8-3B668BB8EAE7@gmail.com><AANLkTi=5ghcZo5uoSpo3aSNd0LEw1-aMFyfKuYzvH_Vi@mail.gmail.com><CBAC3F9230404D649FD27AE0E8ECF304@SonyPC><AANLkTims7WKD7tOpH5VYojtZzmjykUP7CruBUX9af9gm@mail.gmail.com><9AB1D265DEE7432E8AC8902340033F39@AnitaAdkinsPC><DD69488722024D8EA06A60FF3671994A@Rufus>
	<008401cb3585$9939b6d0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <C2C9B285FB6B46AB95A195A5BAFA044D@userf9b4fa60eb>

Hello,

I do not pretend to take a position just because it is the dream, especially 
if I think it is the wrong dream.

Priorities must be focused on advancing the lives of blind people, and this 
is best done by addressing the rate of unemployment the blind face.

To think that a prohibitively expensive car will be the way to that mean is 
ignoring the dilemma of who pays for your sixty thousand dollar car so you 
can have a job making $30 thousand a year.

Will we go down to Washington to convince the government that they should 
pay for these cars for any blind person who thinks they want or need one?

How about driver's ed? Will I need training at one of the top 3 training 
centers in the country so I can learn the philosophy that it is respectable 
to be a blind driver?

And how will I get to the job interview, if I don't have the money to 
purchase the car?

I would agree that autonomous driving would benefit all, including the 
blind. What's so hot about knowing you're controlling all the aspects of 
driving, except that this is the way we do it now?

Smart highways would likely eliminate accidents, as was pointed out, no 
matter who is inside the car.

I too want to be proven wrong, and be able to drive in my lifetime, but I 
would much rather know that blindness is not a factor in deciding if I am 
good enough to work in my chosen field.

this is the path we're headed in, but no, I don't have to take it in as if I 
agreed with the idea wholeheartedly.

Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.

Student, Western Governors University
(617) 744-9716
Eastern time zone
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Cars for the Blind


> Good morning everyone,
>    Let me say something right now before the nay-saying gets out-of-hand! 
> I
> for one dreamed of the possibility of being able to drive a car as far 
> back
> as 1968. I got very excited in 2000 when this initiative was announced 
> when
> construction of the NFB Jernigan Institute began. It is wonderful to see
> this dream finally becoming a reality. When full realization of that dream
> has been achieved is still up in the air but we've begun developing the
> technology to make it possible for us to drive a vehicle independently. 
> This
> is exciting and empowering!
>
>    It means the difference between being able to live where you wish or
> having your choice of local being determined by the availability or lack 
> of
> public transportation. It means being able to travel on your schedule and
> not those of transportation providers. It means not having to rely on 
> others
> for transportation particularly on a South Texas scortcher like today.
>
>    It also has the potential to open up job possibilities previously not
> thought possible for the blind. Some of us have all ready imagined this
> technology being married to that used by airplane pilots to permit a blind
> person to pilot their own aircraft. Hence the airplane analogy is valid as
> some of the technology being developed for the car interface for the blind
> is all ready used to pilot airplanes. Others have also invisioned blind
> persons working as taxi drivers, bus drivers, railroad engineers, etc. I
> call upon you to explore the possibilities rather than rehashing many of 
> the
> so-called reasons and excuses of why this will not work or why the blind
> shouldn't drive. We're supposed to be imaginators so let's act like it! We
> all have a right to disagree but when those disagreements cross the line 
> and
> result in the destruction of the dreams, desires, and aspirations of those
> who imagine a future full of possibilities someone is going to sound the
> alarm and say, "Enough!" Thanks for listening and contemplating.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
> 



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 10 04:27:32 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 23:27:32 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <AANLkTikunDYfYOAjxSOpBtGrR0KQf9rfPs4PhkxPgHKH@mail.gmail.com><001e01cb37f8$cc07ee40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<4737E74AAA5642ED942F86D59F11ACD0@heathersony>
Message-ID: <50D08B10A75A4169ADA68771B2C95671@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     I just tried www.txtdrop.com. I was able to send a text message to my 
phone, so I know it works. The problem with the Youth Slam vote is that the 
destination number is not 10 digits long. Is there a way around this?

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


> go to.
> www.txtdrop.com
> totally accessible
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>;
> "NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:26 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Good afternoon everyone,
>
>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive
> funding from
> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
> have
> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
> applications
> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
> cell
> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>
>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web
> site
> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our
> votes
> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
> CAPTCHAS
> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see
> the
> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>
> Peter and Mary Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 



From jj at bestmidi.com  Tue Aug 10 04:44:40 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:44:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <AANLkTikunDYfYOAjxSOpBtGrR0KQf9rfPs4PhkxPgHKH@mail.gmail.com><001e01cb37f8$cc07ee40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><4737E74AAA5642ED942F86D59F11ACD0@heathersony>
	<50D08B10A75A4169ADA68771B2C95671@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <A91DF1479CCF468C98E7742956AC5754@jage>

Hello. The website to text gateways do not work with short codes such as 
this one. Texting via phone or the Pepsi Refresh project are the ways to 
enter.

J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
A premier Code Factory, KNFB Reader, and Sendero distributor
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


> Hello:
>
>     I just tried www.txtdrop.com. I was able to send a text message to my 
> phone, so I know it works. The problem with the Youth Slam vote is that 
> the destination number is not 10 digits long. Is there a way around this?
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>> go to.
>> www.txtdrop.com
>> totally accessible
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>;
>> "NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:26 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>
>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive
>> funding from
>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>> have
>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>> applications
>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>> cell
>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>
>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web
>> site
>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our
>> votes
>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>> CAPTCHAS
>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see
>> the
>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>
>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
> 



From jj at bestmidi.com  Tue Aug 10 04:46:42 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 00:46:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <AANLkTikunDYfYOAjxSOpBtGrR0KQf9rfPs4PhkxPgHKH@mail.gmail.com>
	<001e01cb37f8$cc07ee40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <F8DFFDB9E7DA4893A5FE636A48D41EF7@jage>

Peter,
While I can appreciate your stance on CAPTCHAs, this is ardly the time to 
put politics in front of a great cause. There are several solutions for 
solving CAPTCHAs available including Webvisum, Solona, etc.
Certainly, a perfect world would include an accessible solution for 
everything, but if we had a perfect world, there would be no need for Youth 
Slam either.


J.J.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>; "NFBnet 
NFBCS Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 3:26 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


> Good afternoon everyone,
>
>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding 
> from
> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't have
> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop 
> applications
> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a cell
> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>
>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site
> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our votes
> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any 
> CAPTCHAS
> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the
> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>
> Peter and Mary Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
> 



From JFreeh at nfb.org  Tue Aug 10 07:42:21 2010
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 02:42:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind
 Students
Message-ID: <auto-000166292429@mailfront1.g2host.com>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org





National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind Students





Calls for Equal Access to Information and Technology in America’s Universities



Baltimore, Maryland (August 9, 2010): The 
National Federation of the Blind (NFB) responded 
today to recent attacks on the right of blind 
students to have equal access to technologies 
used by America’s universities and to the 
textbooks and course materials offered by 
institutions of higher learning.  The NFB and the 
United States Department of Justice, Civil Rights 
Division, have come under attack in recent days 
for reaching settlements with universities 
requiring that the universities refrain from 
purchasing any e-book technology that is not fully accessible to the blind.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National 
Federation of the Blind, said: “Blind students 
must have access to the same textbooks and course 
materials and the same technology to read them as 
all other students.  This is not only a matter of 
fairness to blind students but a requirement of 
federal law.  For this reason, we applaud the 
United States Department of Justice, acting at 
our request and pursuant to its mandate to 
enforce this nation’s disability rights laws, for 
reaching landmark settlements with colleges and 
universities ensuring that e-book technologies 
deployed by these institutions will be accessible 
to all their students.  With the announcement of 
a new accessible Amazon Kindle, the recent 
introduction of the Apple iPad, and the promise 
of future accessible e-book products­many of 
which would not have been made accessible without 
our advocacy efforts­colleges and universities 
will find it increasingly easy to procure e-book 
technology that benefits everyone.  These 
settlements benefit not only blind students, who 
will now have access to the same books at the 
same time and at the same price as their sighted 
peers, but also institutions of higher learning, 
which will no longer incur the administrative 
burden of producing or procuring accessible books 
through separate and inferior methods.  To the 
extent that inaccessible e-book technology 
remains a barrier to the equal education of the 
blind, however, the National Federation of the 
Blind will continue to fight for the educational 
and legal rights of blind students, and we will 
not hesitate to call upon the Department of 
Justice and other government authorities to 
assist us in doing so when necessary.”





###



About the National Federation of the Blind

With more than 50,000 members, the National 
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most 
influential membership organization of blind 
people in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = 
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" 
/>United States.  The NFB improves blind people’s 
lives through advocacy, education, research, 
technology, and programs encouraging independence 
and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in 
the blindness field today and the voice of the 
nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened 
the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan 
Institute, the first research and training center 
in the United States for the blind led by the blind.



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 14:59:03 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (NabslinkAudioWebMaster)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:59:03 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
Message-ID: <mailman.5.1772982259.2863824.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>



Greetings!
This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.

Title: The Nabs Conference Call From August 2010
Description: On this call, we get to meet the various committees of Nabs and the great people behind them. Find out who these people are and what these committees do.


You can download the show directly at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/August2010Call.mp3

Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
to hear some of the other calls we've done.
Best regards,
David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
http://www.nabslink.org


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 10 15:29:43 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:29:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
Message-ID: <00ca01cb38a0$dbc7fa70$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello J. J. and everyone,

    Not around here! If this organization wants to seek funding for projects
such as this it needs to ensure that there are multiple ways for members to
submit votes for such funding to free us from having to deal with
inaccessible Web site components. I'm sorry but that's the rule around here.

Peter Donahue



 ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Peter,
While I can appreciate your stance on CAPTCHAs, this is hardly  the time to
put politics in front of a great cause. There are several solutions for
solving CAPTCHAs available including Webvisum, Solona, etc.
Certainly, a perfect world would include an accessible solution for
everything, but if we had a perfect world, there would be no need for Youth
Slam either.


J.J.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>; "NFBnet
NFBCS Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 3:26 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


> Good afternoon everyone,
>
>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
> from
> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't have
> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
> applications
> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a cell
> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>
>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site
> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our votes
> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
> CAPTCHAS
> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the
> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>
> Peter and Mary Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
>


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net

"Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber
      And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered.
      And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you
      On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you."
Will You Come to the Bower
Traditional Irish Folk Song



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 16:09:38 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 12:09:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <00ca01cb38a0$dbc7fa70$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <00ca01cb38a0$dbc7fa70$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS178EA7DBCFE9CF56449A198B950@phx.gbl>

Pepsi's captas were accessible.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 11:29 AM
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

> Hello J. J. and everyone,
>
>    Not around here! If this organization wants to seek funding for 
> projects
> such as this it needs to ensure that there are multiple ways for members 
> to
> submit votes for such funding to free us from having to deal with
> inaccessible Web site components. I'm sorry but that's the rule around 
> here.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Peter,
> While I can appreciate your stance on CAPTCHAs, this is hardly  the time 
> to
> put politics in front of a great cause. There are several solutions for
> solving CAPTCHAs available including Webvisum, Solona, etc.
> Certainly, a perfect world would include an accessible solution for
> everything, but if we had a perfect world, there would be no need for 
> Youth
> Slam either.
>
>
> J.J.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: <nfb-web at nfbnet.org>; "Mary Donahue" <braille at sbcglobal.net>; "NFBnet
> NFBCS Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 3:26 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>
>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>> from
>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't 
>> have
>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>> applications
>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a cell
>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>
>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site
>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our votes
>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>> CAPTCHAS
>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the
>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>
>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
> "Will you come and awake our lost land from its slumber
>      And her fetters we'll break, links that long are encumbered.
>      And the air will resound with hosannas to greet you
>      On the shore will be found gallant Irishmen to greet you."
> Will You Come to the Bower
> Traditional Irish Folk Song
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 19:37:22 2010
From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:37:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>

Peter,

They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
things out before complaining about them.



From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 20:10:10 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 13:10:10 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
Message-ID: <4C61B222.90005@gmail.com>

  Hello Sean,

There may still be a valid point, since audio CAPTCHA is inaccessible to 
someone who is deaf-blind.

Just saying...

On 8/10/2010 12:37 PM, Sean Whalen wrote:
> Peter,
>
> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
> things out before complaining about them.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com



From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 10 20:24:42 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:24:42 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
Message-ID: <001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Shawn and everyone,

    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to 
use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with 
them. Darrell is right on with this one.

Peter Donahue
.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Peter,

They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
things out before complaining about them.


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 



From marsha.drenth at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 20:44:40 2010
From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:44:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
	<001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>

Peter,

I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as Webvisum
would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve the
CAPTCHA. 

Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
hearing impaired person. 

No more excuses not to vote!





-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

Hello Shawn and everyone,

    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to 
use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with 
them. Darrell is right on with this one.

Peter Donahue
.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Peter,

They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
things out before complaining about them.


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
l.net 


_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
l.com
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5356 (20100810) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5356 (20100810) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com
 



From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 21:08:52 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:08:52 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Members on this list??
Message-ID: <BAF2ECEAC4714E32ABACE28A911C38E0@Espy>

I'm wondering if Rusty Perez is still on this list...? If so, can you please contact me off list? My question has to do with language line services.
Hope Paulos


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5356 (20100810) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 10 21:17:21 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:17:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
Message-ID: <001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello again everyone,

    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web 
sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when money 
is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these very 
components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use Web 
Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of 
CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle that 
we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be 
blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the 
$250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web 
accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special 
interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to 
encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the failure 
of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the 
Pepsi Web Site.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Peter,

I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as Webvisum
would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve the
CAPTCHA.

Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
hearing impaired person.

No more excuses not to vote!





-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

Hello Shawn and everyone,

    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
them. Darrell is right on with this one.

Peter Donahue
.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Peter,

They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
things out before complaining about them.


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
l.net


_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
l.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5356 (20100810) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 5356 (20100810) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
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From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 21:20:20 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:20:20 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>

I don't mean to sound blunt but they are in compliance even with our own 
standards of NFB policy. Captures are not against our policy as longa s they 
have audio.

Thanks Rob Blachowicz

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

> Hello again everyone,
>
>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when 
> money
> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these 
> very
> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use Web
> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle 
> that
> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the 
> failure
> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
> Pepsi Web Site.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as 
> Webvisum
> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve 
> the
> CAPTCHA.
>
> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
> hearing impaired person.
>
> No more excuses not to vote!
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>
>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>
> Peter Donahue
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Peter,
>
> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
> things out before complaining about them.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
> l.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
> l.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 10 21:27:53 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:27:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello again everyone,

    So they're in compliance if someone can neither read the characters or 
hear the audio? There is something called deaf-blindness. Many of our 
members have hearing impairments that are as varied as visual acuity 
limiting their ability to hear as well as see. Again its principles not 
CAPTCHA solving methods that are at issue.

Peter Donahue
.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


I don't mean to sound blunt but they are in compliance even with our own
standards of NFB policy. Captures are not against our policy as longa s they
have audio.

Thanks Rob Blachowicz

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

> Hello again everyone,
>
>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when
> money
> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these
> very
> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use Web
> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle
> that
> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the
> failure
> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
> Pepsi Web Site.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as
> Webvisum
> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve
> the
> CAPTCHA.
>
> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
> hearing impaired person.
>
> No more excuses not to vote!
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf
> Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>
>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>
> Peter Donahue
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Peter,
>
> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
> things out before complaining about them.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
> l.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
>
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From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 21:35:51 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:35:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>
	<003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>

There is no way currently to solve this problem.  You got to remember why 
they use these in the first place- to make sure your not a computer to 
protect their own servers.  As the NFB we can come up with a solution though 
to solve this problem maybe a braille tag or if you don't have a braille 
display  some other type of new type of varification.  Point being is, we 
can only change if we imagine and come up with a new solution to  the 
problem like our new car that we imagined.
Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:27 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

> Hello again everyone,
>
>    So they're in compliance if someone can neither read the characters or
> hear the audio? There is something called deaf-blindness. Many of our
> members have hearing impairments that are as varied as visual acuity
> limiting their ability to hear as well as see. Again its principles not
> CAPTCHA solving methods that are at issue.
>
> Peter Donahue
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> I don't mean to sound blunt but they are in compliance even with our own
> standards of NFB policy. Captures are not against our policy as longa s 
> they
> have audio.
>
> Thanks Rob Blachowicz
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
>> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when
>> money
>> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these
>> very
>> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use 
>> Web
>> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
>> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle
>> that
>> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
>> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
>> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
>> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
>> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
>> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the
>> failure
>> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
>> Pepsi Web Site.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as
>> Webvisum
>> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve
>> the
>> CAPTCHA.
>>
>> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
>> hearing impaired person.
>>
>> No more excuses not to vote!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>>
>>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
>> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
>> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>> .
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
>> things out before complaining about them.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
>> l.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
>> l.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
>
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 21:44:49 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:44:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <02A1477511724284B46D4FDB8EC23863@Rufus>

Peter,

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're refusing to vote in order to
prove the point that we should not use services that are not accessible to
all members.  This to me comes as something of an irony since just a few
days ago you railed against people who dared to deny other people their
dreams of one day driving a car.  I feel that if my posts were
philosophically objecting, your actions are practically blocking.  Youth
Slam is, after all, laying the foundation for students who want to build a
career in math and science.  But, maybe I'm reading you wrong?

Respectfully,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

Hello again everyone,

    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a 
position that Web 
sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. 
Yet when money 
is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that 
include these very 
components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the 
record I use Web 
Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the 
availability of 
CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying 
principle that 
we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be 
blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the 
$250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web 
accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop 
a special 
interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to 
encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to 
the failure 
of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to 
vote via the 
Pepsi Web Site.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Peter,

I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such 
as Webvisum
would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to 
help solve the
CAPTCHA.

Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
hearing impaired person.

No more excuses not to vote!





-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

Hello Shawn and everyone,

    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is 
deaf-blind able to
use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
them. Darrell is right on with this one.

Peter Donahue
.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Peter,

They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is 
beneficial to check
things out before complaining about them.


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue
1%40sbcgloba
l.net


_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.d
renth%40gmai
l.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature
database 5356 (20100810) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of 
virus signature
database 5356 (20100810) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
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1%40sbcglobal.net 


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
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%40gmail.com



From jj at bestmidi.com  Tue Aug 10 23:02:58 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:02:58 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <F5E7BCAB7DDA434C9B17B00CA73E0704@jage>

Great. I'll be looking for your check for $250,000. Until that comes, I hope 
you join the rest of us in voting for a worthy cause instead of just sitting 
on your 20-foot tall horse and talking about how you would do it better.
I'll be looking forward to your $250,000 fund raising idea. The more the 
better.
There are CAPTCHA solutions for blind people, deaf-blind people, and 
practically anyone who wishes to vote. The tools are there. They just need 
to be utilized.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


> Hello again everyone,
>
>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when 
> money
> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these 
> very
> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use Web
> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle 
> that
> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the 
> failure
> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
> Pepsi Web Site.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Peter,
>
> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as 
> Webvisum
> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve 
> the
> CAPTCHA.
>
> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
> hearing impaired person.
>
> No more excuses not to vote!
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>
>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>
> Peter Donahue
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Peter,
>
> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
> things out before complaining about them.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
> l.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
> l.com
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature
> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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> 



From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 23:07:38 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:07:38 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] national Assistance Dog Week.
Message-ID: <AANLkTinA0Sun4Ww94xcye23dnb7ui9jGxR82hhk_HmFJ@mail.gmail.com>

Found this as interesting and wanted to share
as  posted on  www.cfilc.org

National Assistance Dog Week Event

National Assistance Dog Week Event


National Assistance Dog Week Event

photo of small service dog holding its leash in its mouth
National Assistance Dog Week was created to recognize all the devoted,
hardworking assistance dogs helping individuals mitigate their
disability. In addition
to honoring assistance dogs during their special week, one of the
goals is to raise awareness about these very special and highly
trained animals. This
year National Assistance Dog Week is August 8-14.

Assistance Dogs transform the lives of their human partners with
physical and mental disabilities by serving as their devoted
companion, helper, aide, best
friend and close member of their family. Assistance dogs include Guide
Dogs, Service Dogs, Hearing Alert Dogs, Seizure Alert/Response Dogs
and Medical
Alert/Response Dogs.

National Assistance Dog Week was established due to the efforts of
Marcie Davis, a paraplegic for over 35 years and CEO of Davis
Innovations, a consulting
firm based in Santa Fe, NM. Davis is the author of Working Like Dogs:
The Service Dog Guidebook, a resource book that captures personal
stories, checklists
and practical tips to provide the reader with an A-Z guide about
service dogs and she is the host of the Internet radio program,
Working Like Dogs, at

www.petliferadio.com
. As a member of a service dog team, she founded Working Like Dogs to
honor assistance dogs around the world.

More information about National Assistance Dog week can be found at
www.assistancedogweek.org.


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 23:14:34 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:14:34 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <F5E7BCAB7DDA434C9B17B00CA73E0704@jage>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<F5E7BCAB7DDA434C9B17B00CA73E0704@jage>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS158AE80E1267EF3ADBA7238B950@phx.gbl>


I totally agree with you but we do have to respect his opinion after all we 
are a group that's tollerant of other ideas when voiced within the 
organization.
Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:02 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

> Great. I'll be looking for your check for $250,000. Until that comes, I 
> hope you join the rest of us in voting for a worthy cause instead of just 
> sitting on your 20-foot tall horse and talking about how you would do it 
> better.
> I'll be looking forward to your $250,000 fund raising idea. The more the 
> better.
> There are CAPTCHA solutions for blind people, deaf-blind people, and 
> practically anyone who wishes to vote. The tools are there. They just need 
> to be utilized.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
>
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
>> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when 
>> money
>> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these 
>> very
>> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use 
>> Web
>> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
>> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle 
>> that
>> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
>> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
>> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
>> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
>> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
>> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the 
>> failure
>> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
>> Pepsi Web Site.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as 
>> Webvisum
>> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve 
>> the
>> CAPTCHA.
>>
>> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
>> hearing impaired person.
>>
>> No more excuses not to vote!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>>
>>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
>> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
>> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>> .
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
>> things out before complaining about them.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
>> l.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
>> l.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From missheather at comcast.net  Tue Aug 10 23:22:18 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:22:18 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <674B5D1525BA436986817CBA82073257@heathersony>

Hi Rob,
Do you know why they don't use random questions that people could 
answer by writing an answer in a text box. Such questions require a 
human to think and figure out the answer. For example, a question 
could be, if a man's name was Tom, what would he be called if he came 
last in a race.  Possible answers, Tom, and, last.
Perhaps this approach has been tried and failed. However, if not, it 
seems to be a whole lot simpler than the whole capcha thing.
Just wondering.

Heather don't see
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


There is no way currently to solve this problem.  You got to remember 
why
they use these in the first place- to make sure your not a computer to
protect their own servers.  As the NFB we can come up with a solution 
though
to solve this problem maybe a braille tag or if you don't have a 
braille
display  some other type of new type of varification.  Point being is, 
we
can only change if we imagine and come up with a new solution to  the
problem like our new car that we imagined.
Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:27 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

> Hello again everyone,
>
>    So they're in compliance if someone can neither read the 
> characters or
> hear the audio? There is something called deaf-blindness. Many of 
> our
> members have hearing impairments that are as varied as visual acuity
> limiting their ability to hear as well as see. Again its principles 
> not
> CAPTCHA solving methods that are at issue.
>
> Peter Donahue
> .
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> I don't mean to sound blunt but they are in compliance even with our 
> own
> standards of NFB policy. Captures are not against our policy as 
> longa s
> they
> have audio.
>
> Thanks Rob Blachowicz
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position 
>> that Web
>> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet 
>> when
>> money
>> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include 
>> these
>> very
>> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I 
>> use
>> Web
>> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the 
>> availability of
>> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying 
>> principle
>> that
>> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
>> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised 
>> the
>> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
>> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a 
>> special
>> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having 
>> to
>> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the
>> failure
>> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote 
>> via the
>> Pepsi Web Site.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as
>> Webvisum
>> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help 
>> solve
>> the
>> CAPTCHA.
>>
>> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf 
>> blind or
>> hearing impaired person.
>>
>> No more excuses not to vote!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>> On
>> Behalf
>> Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>>
>>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind 
>> able to
>> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess 
>> with
>> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>> .
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to 
>> check
>> things out before complaining about them.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
>> l.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
>> l.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 




From trillian551 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 10 23:22:25 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:22:25 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <F5E7BCAB7DDA434C9B17B00CA73E0704@jage>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
	<001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<F5E7BCAB7DDA434C9B17B00CA73E0704@jage>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimmNE_WkG5n=G0ciRqgg5cT+a836Kjm-QT5SyrY@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Peter,
I see your point. However, because of our work, the captchas are no
longer the garbled mess they  used to be. Captchas now, if you had
taken the time to listen, are short clipse  of movie dialogues and or
books. they are human voices, further more, you only have o to
recognize a few words and type those in. No one has said that if we do
not win this contest we will not host YouthSlam in 2011. The program
will take place rgardless. However, winning the Pepsi contest will not
only provide  funds that will make the program bigger and allow more
students to go, but it will also give us wider recognition. This is a
national contest, and having enough people across the country realize
how important it is to open the fields of science and mathematics to
blind youth, will further our cause and even resolve problems such as
captchas. Sometimes you have to choose your battles. Web accessibility
is and will continue to be at the forefront of our efforts, but
educating blind youth, giving students the empowerment and toools to
pursue their dreams, will benefit all blind people in the long run.
With that said, you do not have to vote. If you feel so strongly that
this is somehow betraying what you thinkk the federation should do,
and ofends you as a federationist, then don't. After all, in the
federation we don't always agree as a whole, so we will respect your
opinion.
Thank you.
Mary F

On 8/10/10, J.J. Meddaugh <jj at bestmidi.com> wrote:
> Great. I'll be looking for your check for $250,000. Until that comes, I hope
> you join the rest of us in voting for a worthy cause instead of just sitting
> on your 20-foot tall horse and talking about how you would do it better.
> I'll be looking forward to your $250,000 fund raising idea. The more the
> better.
> There are CAPTCHA solutions for blind people, deaf-blind people, and
> practically anyone who wishes to vote. The tools are there. They just need
> to be utilized.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
>> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when
>> money
>> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these
>> very
>> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use Web
>> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
>> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle
>> that
>> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
>> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
>> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
>> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
>> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
>> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the
>> failure
>> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
>> Pepsi Web Site.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as
>> Webvisum
>> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve
>> the
>> CAPTCHA.
>>
>> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
>> hearing impaired person.
>>
>> No more excuses not to vote!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>>
>>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
>> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
>> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>> .
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
>> things out before complaining about them.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
>> l.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
>> l.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature
>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Tue Aug 10 23:34:29 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:34:29 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS158AE80E1267EF3ADBA7238B950@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<F5E7BCAB7DDA434C9B17B00CA73E0704@jage>
	<BAY130-DS158AE80E1267EF3ADBA7238B950@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20100810193429.8c9lhsnlcsssk848@webmail.utoronto.ca>

I have seen a site where a challenge question was used that only a  
human could answer, but it was completely accessible. It was simple  
math I think, like 14+4. I'll find the website and see if I can get in  
touch with them to see what they use.
I have to say that Peter has a point. On principle, it makes no sense  
to me why NABS should go anywhere near capchias. I'm disappointed they  
did.
However, they are not insurmountable; check out this website.
www.solona.net
a human solves capchias for you; you just have to install a small  
piece of software which takes an image of the webpage and saves it as  
a png file, then upload it to the site and bingo. you're capchia is  
solved for you. Just take the image before filling out any info on the  
online form, otherwise the person solving it will see what you've  
written.
hth,
Sarah


Quoting Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com>:

>
> I totally agree with you but we do have to respect his opinion after
> all we are a group that's tollerant of other ideas when voiced within
> the organization.
> Rob
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:02 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>> Great. I'll be looking for your check for $250,000. Until that   
>> comes, I hope you join the rest of us in voting for a worthy cause   
>> instead of just sitting on your 20-foot tall horse and talking   
>> about how you would do it better.
>> I'll be looking forward to your $250,000 fund raising idea. The   
>> more the better.
>> There are CAPTCHA solutions for blind people, deaf-blind people,   
>> and practically anyone who wishes to vote. The tools are there.   
>> They just need to be utilized.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"   
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>
>>>   This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
>>> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when money
>>> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include   
>>> these very
>>> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use Web
>>> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
>>> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle that
>>> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
>>> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
>>> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
>>> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
>>> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
>>> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the failure
>>> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
>>> Pepsi Web Site.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marsha Drenth"   
>>> <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as Webvisum
>>> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help  
>>>  solve the
>>> CAPTCHA.
>>>
>>> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
>>> hearing impaired person.
>>>
>>> No more excuses not to vote!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]  
>>>  On Behalf
>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>>>
>>>   How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
>>> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
>>> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> .
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
>>> things out before complaining about them.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
>>> l.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
>>> l.com
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus  
>>>  signature
>>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus  
>>>  signature
>>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>>> for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca





From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 10 23:38:29 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:38:29 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <674B5D1525BA436986817CBA82073257@heathersony>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<674B5D1525BA436986817CBA82073257@heathersony>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS6502AC1C2E00038F69F758B950@phx.gbl>


That would be a good answer to the problem.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "H. Field" <missheather at comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:22 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications

> Hi Rob,
> Do you know why they don't use random questions that people could
> answer by writing an answer in a text box. Such questions require a
> human to think and figure out the answer. For example, a question
> could be, if a man's name was Tom, what would he be called if he came
> last in a race.  Possible answers, Tom, and, last.
> Perhaps this approach has been tried and failed. However, if not, it
> seems to be a whole lot simpler than the whole capcha thing.
> Just wondering.
>
> Heather don't see
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> There is no way currently to solve this problem.  You got to remember
> why
> they use these in the first place- to make sure your not a computer to
> protect their own servers.  As the NFB we can come up with a solution
> though
> to solve this problem maybe a braille tag or if you don't have a
> braille
> display  some other type of new type of varification.  Point being is,
> we
> can only change if we imagine and come up with a new solution to  the
> problem like our new car that we imagined.
> Rob
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:27 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    So they're in compliance if someone can neither read the
>> characters or
>> hear the audio? There is something called deaf-blindness. Many of
>> our
>> members have hearing impairments that are as varied as visual acuity
>> limiting their ability to hear as well as see. Again its principles
>> not
>> CAPTCHA solving methods that are at issue.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>> .
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> I don't mean to sound blunt but they are in compliance even with our
>> own
>> standards of NFB policy. Captures are not against our policy as
>> longa s
>> they
>> have audio.
>>
>> Thanks Rob Blachowicz
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>
>>>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position
>>> that Web
>>> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet
>>> when
>>> money
>>> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include
>>> these
>>> very
>>> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I
>>> use
>>> Web
>>> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the
>>> availability of
>>> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying
>>> principle
>>> that
>>> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
>>> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised
>>> the
>>> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
>>> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a
>>> special
>>> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having
>>> to
>>> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the
>>> failure
>>> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote
>>> via the
>>> Pepsi Web Site.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as
>>> Webvisum
>>> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help
>>> solve
>>> the
>>> CAPTCHA.
>>>
>>> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf
>>> blind or
>>> hearing impaired person.
>>>
>>> No more excuses not to vote!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>>>
>>>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind
>>> able to
>>> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess
>>> with
>>> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> .
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to
>>> check
>>> things out before complaining about them.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
>>> l.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai
>>> l.com
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature
>>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature
>>> database 5356 (20100810) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 10 23:43:48 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:43:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Members on this list??
References: <BAF2ECEAC4714E32ABACE28A911C38E0@Espy>
Message-ID: <2DA3468B7B3043EAAA50737132F27594@Ashley>

Hi Hope,
You can see the subscribers list by logging into the nabs page on 
www.nfbnet.org.
So if you know his email address you will know if he's on the list.  The 
list has all email addresses there.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:08 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Members on this list??


> I'm wondering if Rusty Perez is still on this list...? If so, can you 
> please contact me off list? My question has to do with language line 
> services.
> Hope Paulos
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 5356 (20100810) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 11 00:16:44 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:16:44 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><F5E7BCAB7DDA434C9B17B00CA73E0704@jage>
	<AANLkTimmNE_WkG5n=G0ciRqgg5cT+a836Kjm-QT5SyrY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004501cb38ea$7be0e4b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Mary and everyone,

    Again this ignores the fact that some of us have hearing impairments 
severe enough to make audio CAPTCHAS of any kind unusable. Future 
improvements to solving CAPTCHAs need to be tactile as well as audio to 
enable deaf-blind individuals to use these Web sites. In this context I 
include those with a hearing loss of any degree.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 6:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications


Hello Peter,
I see your point. However, because of our work, the captchas are no
longer the garbled mess they  used to be. Captchas now, if you had
taken the time to listen, are short clipse  of movie dialogues and or
books. they are human voices, further more, you only have o to
recognize a few words and type those in. No one has said that if we do
not win this contest we will not host YouthSlam in 2011. The program
will take place rgardless. However, winning the Pepsi contest will not
only provide  funds that will make the program bigger and allow more
students to go, but it will also give us wider recognition. This is a
national contest, and having enough people across the country realize
how important it is to open the fields of science and mathematics to
blind youth, will further our cause and even resolve problems such as
captchas. Sometimes you have to choose your battles. Web accessibility
is and will continue to be at the forefront of our efforts, but
educating blind youth, giving students the empowerment and toools to
pursue their dreams, will benefit all blind people in the long run.
With that said, you do not have to vote. If you feel so strongly that
this is somehow betraying what you thinkk the federation should do,
and ofends you as a federationist, then don't. After all, in the
federation we don't always agree as a whole, so we will respect your
opinion.
Thank you.
Mary F

On 8/10/10, J.J. Meddaugh <jj at bestmidi.com> wrote:
> Great. I'll be looking for your check for $250,000. Until that comes, I 
> hope
> you join the rest of us in voting for a worthy cause instead of just 
> sitting
> on your 20-foot tall horse and talking about how you would do it better.
> I'll be looking forward to your $250,000 fund raising idea. The more the
> better.
> There are CAPTCHA solutions for blind people, deaf-blind people, and
> practically anyone who wishes to vote. The tools are there. They just need
> to be utilized.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 5:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    This whole business misses the point. We've taken a position that Web
>> sites should be accessible to all users including the blind. Yet when
>> money
>> is up for grabs we send our own members to Web sites that include these
>> very
>> components that pose accessibility issues for us. For the record I use 
>> Web
>> Vism and for the most part have had success. It's not the availability of
>> CAPTCHA solving services that is at issue but the underlying principle
>> that
>> we believe that Web sites and other Internet resources should be
>> blind-friendly. If we worked at hard enough we could have raised the
>> $250,000 ourselves or through other means where we can insure Web
>> accessibility. Were efforts made to work with Pepsi to develop a special
>> interface that would allow all voters to participate without having to
>> encounter that CAPTCHA? Sufficed to say we lost 62 votes due to the
>> failure
>> of our organization to provide a non-CAPTCHA way for all to vote via the
>> Pepsi Web Site.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marsha Drenth" <marsha.drenth at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 3:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I do believe that as a hearing impaired person, that using such as
>> Webvisum
>> would help with CAPTCHA. That is exactly what Webvisum is, to help solve
>> the
>> CAPTCHA.
>>
>> Someone previously stated this, it's the same answer for a deaf blind or
>> hearing impaired person.
>>
>> No more excuses not to vote!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 4:25 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>> Hello Shawn and everyone,
>>
>>    How is someone with a hearing impairment or who is deaf-blind able to
>> use an audio CAPTCHA? Those things are so garbled that I don't mess with
>> them. Darrell is right on with this one.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>> .
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> They have an audio CAPTCHA available. Sometimes it is beneficial to check
>> things out before complaining about them.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcgloba
>> l.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot

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From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 00:18:58 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:18:58 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of
	Blind Students
References: <auto-000166292429@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <A051AE43B3E447B2955AB90DEF3A1B3C@PC185582706413>

hello list

This is a big step since colleges are requiring these devices but does this 
include online courses? Is blackboard fully accessible for screen readers?

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)" 
<JFreeh at nfb.org>
To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:42 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind 
Students


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org





National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind Students





Calls for Equal Access to Information and Technology in America's 
Universities



Baltimore, Maryland (August 9, 2010): The
National Federation of the Blind (NFB) responded
today to recent attacks on the right of blind
students to have equal access to technologies
used by America's universities and to the
textbooks and course materials offered by
institutions of higher learning.  The NFB and the
United States Department of Justice, Civil Rights
Division, have come under attack in recent days
for reaching settlements with universities
requiring that the universities refrain from
purchasing any e-book technology that is not fully accessible to the blind.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National
Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind students
must have access to the same textbooks and course
materials and the same technology to read them as
all other students.  This is not only a matter of
fairness to blind students but a requirement of
federal law.  For this reason, we applaud the
United States Department of Justice, acting at
our request and pursuant to its mandate to
enforce this nation's disability rights laws, for
reaching landmark settlements with colleges and
universities ensuring that e-book technologies
deployed by these institutions will be accessible
to all their students.  With the announcement of
a new accessible Amazon Kindle, the recent
introduction of the Apple iPad, and the promise
of future accessible e-book products­many of
which would not have been made accessible without
our advocacy efforts­colleges and universities
will find it increasingly easy to procure e-book
technology that benefits everyone.  These
settlements benefit not only blind students, who
will now have access to the same books at the
same time and at the same price as their sighted
peers, but also institutions of higher learning,
which will no longer incur the administrative
burden of producing or procuring accessible books
through separate and inferior methods.  To the
extent that inaccessible e-book technology
remains a barrier to the equal education of the
blind, however, the National Federation of the
Blind will continue to fight for the educational
and legal rights of blind students, and we will
not hesitate to call upon the Department of
Justice and other government authorities to
assist us in doing so when necessary."





###



About the National Federation of the Blind

With more than 50,000 members, the National
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most
influential membership organization of blind
people in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
/>United States.  The NFB improves blind people's
lives through advocacy, education, research,
technology, and programs encouraging independence
and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in
the blindness field today and the voice of the
nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened
the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan
Institute, the first research and training center
in the United States for the blind led by the blind.


_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
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From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 00:24:38 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:24:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights
	ofBlind Students
In-Reply-To: <A051AE43B3E447B2955AB90DEF3A1B3C@PC185582706413>
References: <auto-000166292429@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<A051AE43B3E447B2955AB90DEF3A1B3C@PC185582706413>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS32E1E6C5DDD3C52B9BAC18B960@phx.gbl>

If you were at the convention Blackboard was there.
They say that they are commited to full accessibility.  The problem is many 
colleges do not have the new blackboard and of corse improvements can always 
be made .
Rob


--------------------------------------------------
From: "autTeal Bloodwortho" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:18 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights 
ofBlind Students

> hello list
>
> This is a big step since colleges are requiring these devices but does 
> this include online courses? Is blackboard fully accessible for screen 
> readers?
>
>        -Teal
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)" 
> <JFreeh at nfb.org>
> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:42 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind 
> Students
>
>
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>
>
>
> CONTACT:
>
> Chris Danielsen
>
> Director of Public Relations
>
> National Federation of the Blind
>
> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>
> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>
> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>
>
>
>
>
> National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind Students
>
>
>
>
>
> Calls for Equal Access to Information and Technology in America's 
> Universities
>
>
>
> Baltimore, Maryland (August 9, 2010): The
> National Federation of the Blind (NFB) responded
> today to recent attacks on the right of blind
> students to have equal access to technologies
> used by America's universities and to the
> textbooks and course materials offered by
> institutions of higher learning.  The NFB and the
> United States Department of Justice, Civil Rights
> Division, have come under attack in recent days
> for reaching settlements with universities
> requiring that the universities refrain from
> purchasing any e-book technology that is not fully accessible to the 
> blind.
>
>
>
> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National
> Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind students
> must have access to the same textbooks and course
> materials and the same technology to read them as
> all other students.  This is not only a matter of
> fairness to blind students but a requirement of
> federal law.  For this reason, we applaud the
> United States Department of Justice, acting at
> our request and pursuant to its mandate to
> enforce this nation's disability rights laws, for
> reaching landmark settlements with colleges and
> universities ensuring that e-book technologies
> deployed by these institutions will be accessible
> to all their students.  With the announcement of
> a new accessible Amazon Kindle, the recent
> introduction of the Apple iPad, and the promise
> of future accessible e-book products­many of
> which would not have been made accessible without
> our advocacy efforts­colleges and universities
> will find it increasingly easy to procure e-book
> technology that benefits everyone.  These
> settlements benefit not only blind students, who
> will now have access to the same books at the
> same time and at the same price as their sighted
> peers, but also institutions of higher learning,
> which will no longer incur the administrative
> burden of producing or procuring accessible books
> through separate and inferior methods.  To the
> extent that inaccessible e-book technology
> remains a barrier to the equal education of the
> blind, however, the National Federation of the
> Blind will continue to fight for the educational
> and legal rights of blind students, and we will
> not hesitate to call upon the Department of
> Justice and other government authorities to
> assist us in doing so when necessary."
>
>
>
>
>
> ###
>
>
>
> About the National Federation of the Blind
>
> With more than 50,000 members, the National
> Federation of the Blind is the largest and most
> influential membership organization of blind
> people in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
> "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
> />United States.  The NFB improves blind people's
> lives through advocacy, education, research,
> technology, and programs encouraging independence
> and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in
> the blindness field today and the voice of the
> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened
> the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan
> Institute, the first research and training center
> in the United States for the blind led by the blind.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 11 00:30:09 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 19:30:09 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello again everyone,

    There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting 
sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or spammed. It's 
called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very 
simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The 
individual is then required to type in their answer or is presented with a 
list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct 
response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the 
correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts of a Web 
site or can submit a Web form.

    Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the 
response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another computer, "A 
bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can submit their 
form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot is denied. I 
have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web sites that use 
this kind of verification instead of visual verification "CAPTCHAS." And 
best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually and without 
the involvement of third party solvers.

Peter Donahue 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 00:35:19 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:35:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS2A019DFC73A801A4086E08B960@phx.gbl>

I do agree with you but we do need to then add to this to our resolutions to 
change policy to prod companys to include this.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:30 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives

> Hello again everyone,
>
>    There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting
> sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or spammed. It's
> called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very
> simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The
> individual is then required to type in their answer or is presented with a
> list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct
> response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the
> correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts of a Web
> site or can submit a Web form.
>
>    Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the
> response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another computer, "A
> bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can submit their
> form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot is denied. I
> have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web sites that 
> use
> this kind of verification instead of visual verification "CAPTCHAS." And
> best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually and without
> the involvement of third party solvers.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 00:47:32 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:47:32 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>

Peter,

Great.  You brought a solution.  Now contact Pepsi and make them implement
it.  This may come off as more of my smart-asstifity, but seriously, I think
we need to help bring about the solutions to the problems we believe exist.
If you're willing to boycott the challenge on account of a perceived
exclusion, I hope you're willing to do your part to rectify it on behalf of
the people you think are at a disadvantage.  That's what the drill sergeant
so and so would do. *Inside joke.*

Sincerely,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:30 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives

Hello again everyone,

    There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting 
sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or 
spammed. It's 
called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very 
simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The 
individual is then required to type in their answer or is 
presented with a 
list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct 
response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the 
correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts 
of a Web 
site or can submit a Web form.

    Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the 
response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another 
computer, "A 
bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can 
submit their 
form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot 
is denied. I 
have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web 
sites that use 
this kind of verification instead of visual verification 
"CAPTCHAS." And 
best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually 
and without 
the involvement of third party solvers.

Peter Donahue 


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From liamskitten at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 01:01:40 2010
From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:01:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
	<001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>
	<003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>

Peter,

One factor you may not be aware of is the increasing inclusion of
auditory alternatives for visual verification solutions.  Oftentimes,
the website itself will have a link for an audio captcha.  You might
want to see if the website you're having trouble with utalizes this
method.
Courtney

On 8/10/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Great.  You brought a solution.  Now contact Pepsi and make them implement
> it.  This may come off as more of my smart-asstifity, but seriously, I think
> we need to help bring about the solutions to the problems we believe exist.
> If you're willing to boycott the challenge on account of a perceived
> exclusion, I hope you're willing to do your part to rectify it on behalf of
> the people you think are at a disadvantage.  That's what the drill sergeant
> so and so would do. *Inside joke.*
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:30 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>
> Hello again everyone,
>
>     There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting
> sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or
> spammed. It's
> called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very
> simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The
> individual is then required to type in their answer or is
> presented with a
> list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct
> response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the
> correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts
> of a Web
> site or can submit a Web form.
>
>     Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the
> response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another
> computer, "A
> bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can
> submit their
> form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot
> is denied. I
> have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web
> sites that use
> this kind of verification instead of visual verification
> "CAPTCHAS." And
> best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually
> and without
> the involvement of third party solvers.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com
>


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 01:19:26 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:19:26 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl><005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FADA4503E894C518DFF743A31C4EBED@hometwxakonvzn>

Courtney, You should try Web visum! RJ If you want, You can contact me on 
skype my skype name is smallistbaby1979
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Courtney Stover" <liamskitten at gmail.com>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives


> Peter,
>
> One factor you may not be aware of is the increasing inclusion of
> auditory alternatives for visual verification solutions.  Oftentimes,
> the website itself will have a link for an audio captcha.  You might
> want to see if the website you're having trouble with utalizes this
> method.
> Courtney
>
> On 8/10/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter,
>>
>> Great.  You brought a solution.  Now contact Pepsi and make them 
>> implement
>> it.  This may come off as more of my smart-asstifity, but seriously, I 
>> think
>> we need to help bring about the solutions to the problems we believe 
>> exist.
>> If you're willing to boycott the challenge on account of a perceived
>> exclusion, I hope you're willing to do your part to rectify it on behalf 
>> of
>> the people you think are at a disadvantage.  That's what the drill 
>> sergeant
>> so and so would do. *Inside joke.*
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:30 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>     There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting
>> sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or
>> spammed. It's
>> called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very
>> simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The
>> individual is then required to type in their answer or is
>> presented with a
>> list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct
>> response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the
>> correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts
>> of a Web
>> site or can submit a Web form.
>>
>>     Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the
>> response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another
>> computer, "A
>> bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can
>> submit their
>> form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot
>> is denied. I
>> have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web
>> sites that use
>> this kind of verification instead of visual verification
>> "CAPTCHAS." And
>> best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually
>> and without
>> the involvement of third party solvers.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 01:24:10 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:24:10 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
Message-ID: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!!

I have a couple of questions.

First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
through email?

I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
get any relevant results.
So I thought I'd ask what you all do!

My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
the round rubber band through the hole in the label?

I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
label to say...then stick it on the can.
Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...

My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
light it is is already chipping.
What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.

Thanks,
Kerri


From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Wed Aug 11 01:49:59 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:49:59 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
	<001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>
	<003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100810214959.aiss72rlwg0448cs@webmail.utoronto.ca>

I know I am clogging the list but this is getting ridiculous. Many  
times in this discussion it was said that audio capchias do nothing  
for the deaf-blind. Please read threads before posting.


Quoting Courtney Stover <liamskitten at gmail.com>:

> Peter,
>
> One factor you may not be aware of is the increasing inclusion of
> auditory alternatives for visual verification solutions.  Oftentimes,
> the website itself will have a link for an audio captcha.  You might
> want to see if the website you're having trouble with utalizes this
> method.
> Courtney
>
> On 8/10/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter,
>>
>> Great.  You brought a solution.  Now contact Pepsi and make them implement
>> it.  This may come off as more of my smart-asstifity, but seriously, I think
>> we need to help bring about the solutions to the problems we believe exist.
>> If you're willing to boycott the challenge on account of a perceived
>> exclusion, I hope you're willing to do your part to rectify it on behalf of
>> the people you think are at a disadvantage.  That's what the drill sergeant
>> so and so would do. *Inside joke.*
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:30 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>     There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting
>> sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or
>> spammed. It's
>> called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very
>> simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The
>> individual is then required to type in their answer or is
>> presented with a
>> list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct
>> response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the
>> correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts
>> of a Web
>> site or can submit a Web form.
>>
>>     Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the
>> response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another
>> computer, "A
>> bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can
>> submit their
>> form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot
>> is denied. I
>> have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web
>> sites that use
>> this kind of verification instead of visual verification
>> "CAPTCHAS." And
>> best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually
>> and without
>> the involvement of third party solvers.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>





From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 11 01:51:21 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:51:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl><005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology will 
not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much a do 
has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to help 
those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of 
individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even though I 
said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of 
certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.

Peter Donahue




From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Wed Aug 11 01:53:35 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:53:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100810215335.0a37jzqrk0kwsg8c@webmail.utoronto.ca>

About your first question, I know the CNIB library in Canada allows  
for online ordering of books, and sometimes there is a multinational  
agreement to use that service. I don't know much about NLS but maybe  
NLS eligible people can use the CNIB?
Just a thought


Quoting Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>:

> Hi All!!
>
> I have a couple of questions.
>
> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
> through email?
>
> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
> get any relevant results.
> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>
> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>
> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
> label to say...then stick it on the can.
> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>
> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
> light it is is already chipping.
> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>
> Thanks,
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>





From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 11 01:55:47 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:55:47 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
Message-ID: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello again everyone,

    Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely 
install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications


After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great success.
When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as well
as your normal IM user list.
I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap top,
and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This works
well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.

Cordially,
Gil Vickery

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications


> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone that
> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it with
> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>
> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we try
> to change it?  At least there is an audio
> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even better,
> I was even able to solve it which is more
> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve
>
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>
>>I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>cellphone.
>
>>Mike
>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>><KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly to
>>> the
>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>> others
>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>> and
>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>
>>> Warmly,
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>> History
>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and am
>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>
>>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>>> from
>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>> have
>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>> applications
>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>> cell
>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>
>>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site
>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our votes
>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>> CAPTCHAS
>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the
>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>
>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>> et
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nfbcs mailing list
>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>nfbcs:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nfbcs:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net


_______________________________________________
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From tamwill009 at comcast.net  Wed Aug 11 02:23:27 2010
From: tamwill009 at comcast.net (Tamika Williams)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 21:23:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D951AF7EAD214F2C962C6C30CDA0BD3A@TamikaPC>

Hello Kerri,

I don't have any help really on the cane and braille situations only because 
I don't read braille enough and I only have had experience with the 
telescope cane and the straight nfb cane,  but I will tell you how to 
address the can labeling situation I have done it before. To hold the label 
onto the rubber band you will have to insert one end of the rubber band into 
the hole of the label and take the other end and take it over the end that 
you inserted into the label and tighten it and that will hold the label on 
the rubber band. If that makes any sense.

HTH,
Tamika
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes


> Hi All!!
>
> I have a couple of questions.
>
> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
> through email?
>
> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
> get any relevant results.
> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>
> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>
> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
> label to say...then stick it on the can.
> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>
> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
> light it is is already chipping.
> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>
> Thanks,
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net 



From clb5590 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 02:41:33 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:41:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
In-Reply-To: <D951AF7EAD214F2C962C6C30CDA0BD3A@TamikaPC>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
	<D951AF7EAD214F2C962C6C30CDA0BD3A@TamikaPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikORAUs-z+cPd7iHg0W1+6sUY=yeh_R_gQNvq9w@mail.gmail.com>

North Carolina's library for the blind has a website, and i can order
books online, so call your state's and see if they have a website. I
know NC's isn't well advertised.

Couldn't you just stick the labels to the cans? I know you would have
to make new ones every time you go shopping, but i feel like punching
holes in dymo tape would be difficult especially since the width of
dymo tape is smaller than that of the hole a typical hole puncher
makes. Then again, i still use a meal plan, so i don't ened to label
my food, because i never have much at one time, so i am not the most
experienced at this and may not know the best way.

Cindy

On 8/10/10, Tamika Williams <tamwill009 at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hello Kerri,
>
> I don't have any help really on the cane and braille situations only because
> I don't read braille enough and I only have had experience with the
> telescope cane and the straight nfb cane,  but I will tell you how to
> address the can labeling situation I have done it before. To hold the label
> onto the rubber band you will have to insert one end of the rubber band into
> the hole of the label and take the other end and take it over the end that
> you inserted into the label and tighten it and that will hold the label on
> the rubber band. If that makes any sense.
>
> HTH,
> Tamika
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>
>
>> Hi All!!
>>
>> I have a couple of questions.
>>
>> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
>> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
>> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
>> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
>> through email?
>>
>> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
>> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
>> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
>> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
>> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
>> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
>> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
>> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
>> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
>> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
>> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
>> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
>> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
>> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
>> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
>> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
>> get any relevant results.
>> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>>
>> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
>> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
>> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
>> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
>> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
>> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>>
>> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
>> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
>> label to say...then stick it on the can.
>> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>>
>> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
>> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
>> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
>> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
>> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
>> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
>> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
>> light it is is already chipping.
>> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
>> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
>> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
>> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


From guitargirl89 at windstream.net  Wed Aug 11 02:42:20 2010
From: guitargirl89 at windstream.net (stacy timberlake)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:42:20 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
In-Reply-To: <D951AF7EAD214F2C962C6C30CDA0BD3A@TamikaPC>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
	<D951AF7EAD214F2C962C6C30CDA0BD3A@TamikaPC>
Message-ID: <BD7D1B5ACFC64CA0809987F1CF9EE094@StacyPC>

    I label cans by buying magnetic sheets (available in the wal-mart craft 
section for a couple dollars) loading them into the Braille writer and 
typing the label.  I then cut them down to size and clip off the top right 
corner so I can easily tell which side is up.  The labels stick to the tops 
of the cans and  you can store your labels on the fridge (creating a grocery 
list)
-Stacy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamika Williams" <tamwill009 at comcast.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes


> Hello Kerri,
>
> I don't have any help really on the cane and braille situations only 
> because
> I don't read braille enough and I only have had experience with the
> telescope cane and the straight nfb cane,  but I will tell you how to
> address the can labeling situation I have done it before. To hold the 
> label
> onto the rubber band you will have to insert one end of the rubber band 
> into
> the hole of the label and take the other end and take it over the end that
> you inserted into the label and tighten it and that will hold the label on
> the rubber band. If that makes any sense.
>
> HTH,
> Tamika
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>
>
>> Hi All!!
>>
>> I have a couple of questions.
>>
>> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
>> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
>> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
>> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
>> through email?
>>
>> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
>> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
>> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
>> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
>> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
>> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
>> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
>> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
>> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
>> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
>> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
>> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
>> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
>> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
>> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
>> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
>> get any relevant results.
>> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>>
>> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
>> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
>> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
>> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
>> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
>> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>>
>> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
>> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
>> label to say...then stick it on the can.
>> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>>
>> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
>> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
>> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
>> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
>> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
>> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
>> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
>> light it is is already chipping.
>> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
>> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
>> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
>> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/guitargirl89%40windstream.net


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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18:34:00



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 03:02:43 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:02:43 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <11603462443A47DE87E57B44A0CD02C0@radio360usa>

Give it a time. Any bot will crack that. The recaptcha system, while it's a 
captcha, honestly works great. And it helps to digitize books so we can read 
them online. While I appreciate this alternative to captchas, I don't see it 
as a very effective way to deal with spam, and therefore, don't see many 
sites adopting it all that quickly if at all. A bot can be programmed to 
type and act like a human is entering things in. Sadly, while it has its 
pitfalls if sites don't incorporate it correctly, captcha I think has its 
advantages. Tools like Solona and Web Visum for Firefox seem to do pretty 
well at handling such obstacles.
***
If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of people 
determined to have fun while providing a collective broadcasting excellence, 
and if you want to be entertained by said group, then come join us, either 
as a broadcaster listener or both, at ShockWaveRadio, for we are the driving 
force of entertainment on the internet. Visit us at
http://www.shockwaveradio.net
and follow us on twitter at
shockwaveradio1
Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:30 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives


> Hello again everyone,
>
>    There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting
> sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or spammed. It's
> called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very
> simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The
> individual is then required to type in their answer or is presented with a
> list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct
> response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the
> correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts of a Web
> site or can submit a Web form.
>
>    Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the
> response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another computer, "A
> bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can submit their
> form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot is denied. I
> have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web sites that 
> use
> this kind of verification instead of visual verification "CAPTCHAS." And
> best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually and without
> the involvement of third party solvers.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com 



From tamwill009 at comcast.net  Wed Aug 11 03:24:17 2010
From: tamwill009 at comcast.net (Tamika Williams)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:24:17 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikORAUs-z+cPd7iHg0W1+6sUY=yeh_R_gQNvq9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com><D951AF7EAD214F2C962C6C30CDA0BD3A@TamikaPC>
	<AANLkTikORAUs-z+cPd7iHg0W1+6sUY=yeh_R_gQNvq9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D91F211B17454EA290AABC9975DB004F@TamikaPC>

Actually, you would finding surprising to know that it is not difficult to 
do, and everthing works out efficiently. However the way that Stacy does her 
labeling sounds like an efficient way of getting the job done also. The only 
difference that I can see is you can do the rubber band labels on almost 
anything in the cabinet verses the magnetic labels that can only be used on 
metal.

HTH,
Tamika
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Bennett" <clb5590 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes


> North Carolina's library for the blind has a website, and i can order
> books online, so call your state's and see if they have a website. I
> know NC's isn't well advertised.
>
> Couldn't you just stick the labels to the cans? I know you would have
> to make new ones every time you go shopping, but i feel like punching
> holes in dymo tape would be difficult especially since the width of
> dymo tape is smaller than that of the hole a typical hole puncher
> makes. Then again, i still use a meal plan, so i don't ened to label
> my food, because i never have much at one time, so i am not the most
> experienced at this and may not know the best way.
>
> Cindy
>
> On 8/10/10, Tamika Williams <tamwill009 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hello Kerri,
>>
>> I don't have any help really on the cane and braille situations only 
>> because
>> I don't read braille enough and I only have had experience with the
>> telescope cane and the straight nfb cane,  but I will tell you how to
>> address the can labeling situation I have done it before. To hold the 
>> label
>> onto the rubber band you will have to insert one end of the rubber band 
>> into
>> the hole of the label and take the other end and take it over the end 
>> that
>> you inserted into the label and tighten it and that will hold the label 
>> on
>> the rubber band. If that makes any sense.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Tamika
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>>
>>
>>> Hi All!!
>>>
>>> I have a couple of questions.
>>>
>>> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
>>> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
>>> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
>>> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
>>> through email?
>>>
>>> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
>>> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
>>> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
>>> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
>>> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
>>> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
>>> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
>>> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
>>> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
>>> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
>>> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
>>> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
>>> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
>>> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
>>> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
>>> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
>>> get any relevant results.
>>> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>>>
>>> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
>>> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
>>> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
>>> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
>>> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
>>> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>>>
>>> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
>>> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
>>> label to say...then stick it on the can.
>>> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>>>
>>> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
>>> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
>>> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
>>> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
>>> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
>>> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
>>> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
>>> light it is is already chipping.
>>> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
>>> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
>>> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
>>> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 03:07:28 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:07:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl><005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus><AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <92FC0AD1DE644C2FA84F9CDF088BD203@radio360usa>

Yo Peter, you don't have to be nasty like you are on Pad and other lists 
I've seen you on. People are just pointing out to you the other ways this 
problem can and are being handled.
***
If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of people 
determined to have fun while providing a collective broadcasting excellence, 
and if you want to be entertained by said group, then come join us, either 
as a broadcaster listener or both, at ShockWaveRadio, for we are the driving 
force of entertainment on the internet. Visit us at
http://www.shockwaveradio.net
and follow us on twitter at
shockwaveradio1
Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives


> Hello everyone,
>
>    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology 
> will
> not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much a 
> do
> has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to 
> help
> those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
> individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even though 
> I
> said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
> certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com 


From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 03:42:28 2010
From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 23:42:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
In-Reply-To: <BD7D1B5ACFC64CA0809987F1CF9EE094@StacyPC>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
	<D951AF7EAD214F2C962C6C30CDA0BD3A@TamikaPC>
	<BD7D1B5ACFC64CA0809987F1CF9EE094@StacyPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXaJJtHbDb-K7fwwwXUQZe0UPHFbkpwcF6S2O2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Kerri,
  Regarding your first question, I'm pretty sure nLS does not have a
central site for ordering books on-line, but as others suggested
definitely check with your state library to see if such a system is
available. An alternative would be to browse the books on Web Braille,
locate the ones you like, and call in to request the specific titles.
You are right that it is difficult to browse by category on Web
Braille, but you can search for specific authors, and I have always
found the bi-monthly Braille Book Review very helpful. I'm also a very
fast braille reader, but I read almost exclusively on my braille
note-taker (I have a Braille Note MPower with 32 cells), and  am glad
to do without the bulky hard-copy braille. I don't know what type of
note-taker you have, but if you ever invest in a new one in the
future, you may want to consider the ease of reading on the braille
display (how cumbersome it is to move the cursor around, the number of
cells on the braille display, etc.), as more and more of the braille
media will be in electronic form (for example, Bookshare has  an
amazingly large collection of books) and it would be best if you find
reading on your note-taker a pleasant rather than cumbersome
experience.
  I can't help you much with the latter two questions, as I haven't
had much experience labeling canned food and i haven't use any of the
NFB canes before. I use a folding cane from the Ambutech website and
it has worked well for me.
   Katie


On 8/10/10, stacy timberlake <guitargirl89 at windstream.net> wrote:
>     I label cans by buying magnetic sheets (available in the wal-mart craft
> section for a couple dollars) loading them into the Braille writer and
> typing the label.  I then cut them down to size and clip off the top right
> corner so I can easily tell which side is up.  The labels stick to the tops
> of the cans and  you can store your labels on the fridge (creating a grocery
> list)
> -Stacy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tamika Williams" <tamwill009 at comcast.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>
>
>> Hello Kerri,
>>
>> I don't have any help really on the cane and braille situations only
>> because
>> I don't read braille enough and I only have had experience with the
>> telescope cane and the straight nfb cane,  but I will tell you how to
>> address the can labeling situation I have done it before. To hold the
>> label
>> onto the rubber band you will have to insert one end of the rubber band
>> into
>> the hole of the label and take the other end and take it over the end that
>> you inserted into the label and tighten it and that will hold the label on
>> the rubber band. If that makes any sense.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Tamika
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>>
>>
>>> Hi All!!
>>>
>>> I have a couple of questions.
>>>
>>> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
>>> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
>>> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
>>> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
>>> through email?
>>>
>>> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
>>> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
>>> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
>>> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
>>> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
>>> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
>>> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
>>> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
>>> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
>>> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
>>> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
>>> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
>>> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
>>> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
>>> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
>>> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
>>> get any relevant results.
>>> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>>>
>>> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
>>> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
>>> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
>>> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
>>> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
>>> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>>>
>>> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
>>> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
>>> label to say...then stick it on the can.
>>> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>>>
>>> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
>>> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
>>> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
>>> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
>>> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
>>> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
>>> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
>>> light it is is already chipping.
>>> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
>>> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
>>> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
>>> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/guitargirl89%40windstream.net
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3063 - Release Date: 08/10/10
> 18:34:00
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com
>


From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 03:07:31 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 20:07:31 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <11603462443A47DE87E57B44A0CD02C0@radio360usa>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<11603462443A47DE87E57B44A0CD02C0@radio360usa>
Message-ID: <4C6213F3.4020004@gmail.com>

  Hello,

There are at least two other CAPTCHA alternatives not yet discussed.

First is a CAPTCHA slider control:

http://accessibiliteweb.com/stuff/captcha-slider.html

Second is a telephone-based authentication scheme:

http://www.phonefactor.net

A deaf-blind person could even use this second one with a vibrating 
phone. All she must do is pick up the phone, wait a couple of seconds 
and press the pound key to be authenticated.

There are fully accessible alternatives.

We just need to be encouraging website owners to innovate and to make 
the inclusive choice.

Regards,

Darrell

On 8/10/2010 8:02 PM, David Dunphy wrote:
> Give it a time. Any bot will crack that. The recaptcha system, while 
> it's a captcha, honestly works great. And it helps to digitize books 
> so we can read them online. While I appreciate this alternative to 
> captchas, I don't see it as a very effective way to deal with spam, 
> and therefore, don't see many sites adopting it all that quickly if at 
> all. A bot can be programmed to type and act like a human is entering 
> things in. Sadly, while it has its pitfalls if sites don't incorporate 
> it correctly, captcha I think has its advantages. Tools like Solona 
> and Web Visum for Firefox seem to do pretty well at handling such 
> obstacles.
> ***
> If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of 
> people determined to have fun while providing a collective 
> broadcasting excellence, and if you want to be entertained by said 
> group, then come join us, either as a broadcaster listener or both, at 
> ShockWaveRadio, for we are the driving force of entertainment on the 
> internet. Visit us at
> http://www.shockwaveradio.net
> and follow us on twitter at
> shockwaveradio1
> Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
> <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:30 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>
>
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>    There are all ready alternatives to Visual CAPTCHAS for protecting
>> sensitive information and Web resources from being hacked or spammed. 
>> It's
>> called "Word verification." In word verification a user is given a very
>> simple question or two to answer for example, "What is today?" The
>> individual is then required to type in their answer or is presented 
>> with a
>> list of possible answers to choose from. The user types in the correct
>> response or chooses the right one from the list. Assuming they make the
>> correct choice they are then granted access to restricted parts of a Web
>> site or can submit a Web form.
>>
>>    Word verification utilities have the ability to detect whether the
>> response comes from a keyboard or if it is entered by another 
>> computer, "A
>> bot." Once this determination is made the legitimate user can submit 
>> their
>> form or is granted restricted access privileges while the bot is 
>> denied. I
>> have heard from several individuals that have encountered Web sites 
>> that use
>> this kind of verification instead of visual verification "CAPTCHAS." And
>> best of all word verification can be used audibly or tactually and 
>> without
>> the involvement of third party solvers.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com 
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com 
>


From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 15:48:22 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:48:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl><005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus><AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <09D1CD568DB949AC9851D86D85268869@PC185582706413>

Yeah but even for those of us that can still hear, I know that i can't ever 
understand those audiothings

        -Teal

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives


> Hello everyone,
>
>    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology 
> will
> not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much a 
> do
> has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to 
> help
> those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
> individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even though 
> I
> said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
> certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Wed Aug 11 15:50:47 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:50:47 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <09D1CD568DB949AC9851D86D85268869@PC185582706413>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl><005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus><AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com><001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<09D1CD568DB949AC9851D86D85268869@PC185582706413>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS86195ADA26352CF1923F58B960@phx.gbl>

Just so everyone knows you can use google voice to send text messages to a 
non-full number like to pepsi.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "autTeal Bloodwortho" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 11:48 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives

> Yeah but even for those of us that can still hear, I know that i can't 
> ever understand those audiothings
>
>        -Teal
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology 
>> will
>> not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much a 
>> do
>> has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to 
>> help
>> those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
>> individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even 
>> though I
>> said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
>> certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 11 15:59:47 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:59:47 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl><005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus><AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com><001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<92FC0AD1DE644C2FA84F9CDF088BD203@radio360usa>
Message-ID: <004301cb396e$396f1c80$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello David and everyone,

    And I repeatedly pointed out that one with a hearing impairment cannot 
use audio captchas. Had folks read my messages more carefully and paid 
attention to the fact that I'm one of those with a hearing disorder I 
wouldn't have had to go over the top. Anyway enough of this lot.

Peter Donahue




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives


Yo Peter, you don't have to be nasty like you are on Pad and other lists
I've seen you on. People are just pointing out to you the other ways this
problem can and are being handled.
***
If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of people
determined to have fun while providing a collective broadcasting excellence,
and if you want to be entertained by said group, then come join us, either
as a broadcaster listener or both, at ShockWaveRadio, for we are the driving
force of entertainment on the internet. Visit us at
http://www.shockwaveradio.net
and follow us on twitter at
shockwaveradio1
Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives


> Hello everyone,
>
>    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology
> will
> not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much a
> do
> has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to
> help
> those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
> individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even though
> I
> said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
> certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 



From missheather at comcast.net  Wed Aug 11 16:09:38 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 11:09:38 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <160552557C5A4A618DF3F829E33CFABE@heathersony>

Dear Kerri,
I too am an avid braille reader since childhood, and I am  proficient 
with a braille display but there is no feeling like the stillness and 
silence of a hard-copy braille book. So, I encourage you to keep 
borrowing braille books. Here's how I do it and it works well for me 
as I don't like bothering with the time it takes to call in my 
requests and try to call at a time when my reader adviser is 
available.

Every reader adviser in the Library Service has an e-mail address. I 
suggest you get the e-mail address of your reader adviser. Next, you 
can, indeed, go on to the website of the National Library Service for 
the Blind and Physically handicapped and search for the books you want 
by numerous search criteria. For example, author, title, subject.
Make a list of the books you want in an e-mail, being sure to include 
the catalogue number, and then simply e-mail your requests to your 
reader adviser.

It is important for braille readers to remember that if everyone stops 
borrowing braille books the government might decide that there is no 
longer a need for hard-copy braille books and dismantle the service. 
Reading braille on a book, as opposed to a braille display, is much 
faster and it is important to keep reading speed up. One doesn't have 
to take braille books on the bus or the plane on a flight, but reading 
a book at home is a good idea for the reasons which I've mentioned.
The website for the National Library Service is:
www.loc.gov/nls
Warmest regards,

Heather Field
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes


Hi All!!

I have a couple of questions.

First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
through email?

I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
get any relevant results.
So I thought I'd ask what you all do!

My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
the round rubber band through the hole in the label?

I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
label to say...then stick it on the can.
Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...

My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
light it is is already chipping.
What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.

Thanks,
Kerri

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 




From nabs.president at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 16:24:14 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:24:14 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Chronicle of Higher Education Request
In-Reply-To: <C887179E.7A62%Marc.Parry@chronicle.com>
References: <C887179E.7A62%Marc.Parry@chronicle.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=OtuEeo-Giythx2OsEMzv9ZfUuZySFn5qRbU5p@mail.gmail.com>

Dear students,

This is a great way to make your voice heard regarding difficulties
you've had accessing technology and educational materials-read on!
Arielle

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Marc Parry <Marc.Parry at chronicle.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 14:50:06 -0400
Subject: Chronicle of Higher Education Request
To: president at nabslink.org

Arielle,
Thanks for talking with me this morning. As I mentioned, I¹m writing an
article looking at how good a job‹or not‹colleges are doing providing
technology that is accessible to people with disabilities. I¹d like to speak
with students about technology challenges and problems they¹ve faced. I¹m
interested in stories about the full range of digital materials:
course-management systems (Blackboard, Moodle, etc.), online journals,
e-mail, e-books, administrative web sites (for applying, registering,
learning about colleges, etc.), lecture recordings, live meetings online,
and anything else that I may not have thought of. I¹d love to talk with
students about their experiences in online courses. I¹m also interested in
speaking with students who have tried to use the free online academic
materials known as ³open courseware,² the most famous example being MIT¹s
web site: http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm
I can be contacted via email or at the phone number below.
Thanks again for your help.
Best,
Marc

------------------------
Marc Parry
Staff Reporter
The Chronicle of Higher Education
1255 23rd St. NW
Suite 700
Washington, D.C. 20037
marc.parry at chronicle.com
(202) 466-1724
http://chronicle.com/section/Technology/30/
http://chronicle.com/article/Marc-Parry-Bio/65687/
Twitter: marcparry









-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From beckyasabo at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 16:35:02 2010
From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (becky sabo )
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:35:02 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
Message-ID: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo>

Dear all,

I am having trouble finding readers for this coming semester for school.
Does anyone have any suggestions for me?

Thanks again.

Sincerely 

Becky Sabo 


From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 16:41:29 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:41:29 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
In-Reply-To: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo>
References: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo>
Message-ID: <4C62D2B9.5060208@gmail.com>

  Hello Becky,

What steps have you taken already?

On 8/11/2010 9:35 AM, becky sabo wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I am having trouble finding readers for this coming semester for school.
> Does anyone have any suggestions for me?
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Becky Sabo
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com



From aphelps at bism.org  Wed Aug 11 16:42:00 2010
From: aphelps at bism.org (aphelps at bism.org)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:42:00 +0000
Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
In-Reply-To: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo>
References: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo>
Message-ID: <905940344-1281544921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-207802024-@bda2472.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

Post an add on the bulletin board at school. 
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:35:02 
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Reply-To: beckyasabo at gmail.com,
	National Association of Blind Students mailing list
	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall

Dear all,

I am having trouble finding readers for this coming semester for school.
Does anyone have any suggestions for me?

Thanks again.

Sincerely 

Becky Sabo 

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aphelps%40bism.org



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 18:24:29 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 14:24:29 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille
In-Reply-To: <160552557C5A4A618DF3F829E33CFABE@heathersony>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
	<160552557C5A4A618DF3F829E33CFABE@heathersony>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikCEro0ijqt+4tN2UbXaAQZDtXGO4rDp1YczMzb@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Heather and All!

Thanks so much for this!
When I received the hard-copy braille books from the library, I had
them sent to me randomly so I didn't call the library or anything.
When I signed up for Web Braille, and then in 2008 got my victor
stream, a lady named Terry Methony helped me both times. I do have her
email address...would she be my "reading advisor?"

Also what are the differences between the Iowa canes and the straight
fiberglass NFB canes? I'm trying to figure out what to get as a
backup...I have and love my straight NFB cane now...but I've been told
the Iowa ones are a lot sturdier and don't break nearly as easily or
often!

Thanks,
Kerri

On 8/11/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
> Dear Kerri,
> I too am an avid braille reader since childhood, and I am  proficient
> with a braille display but there is no feeling like the stillness and
> silence of a hard-copy braille book. So, I encourage you to keep
> borrowing braille books. Here's how I do it and it works well for me
> as I don't like bothering with the time it takes to call in my
> requests and try to call at a time when my reader adviser is
> available.
>
> Every reader adviser in the Library Service has an e-mail address. I
> suggest you get the e-mail address of your reader adviser. Next, you
> can, indeed, go on to the website of the National Library Service for
> the Blind and Physically handicapped and search for the books you want
> by numerous search criteria. For example, author, title, subject.
> Make a list of the books you want in an e-mail, being sure to include
> the catalogue number, and then simply e-mail your requests to your
> reader adviser.
>
> It is important for braille readers to remember that if everyone stops
> borrowing braille books the government might decide that there is no
> longer a need for hard-copy braille books and dismantle the service.
> Reading braille on a book, as opposed to a braille display, is much
> faster and it is important to keep reading speed up. One doesn't have
> to take braille books on the bus or the plane on a flight, but reading
> a book at home is a good idea for the reasons which I've mentioned.
> The website for the National Library Service is:
> www.loc.gov/nls
> Warmest regards,
>
> Heather Field
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>
>
> Hi All!!
>
> I have a couple of questions.
>
> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
> through email?
>
> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
> get any relevant results.
> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>
> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>
> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
> label to say...then stick it on the can.
> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>
> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
> light it is is already chipping.
> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>
> Thanks,
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 20:28:53 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:28:53 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <004301cb396e$396f1c80$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
	<001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>
	<003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<92FC0AD1DE644C2FA84F9CDF088BD203@radio360usa>
	<004301cb396e$396f1c80$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikp59QD-Y8cu6E7LSRyi-jQL057Ti0FGECMvP2r@mail.gmail.com>

Alright, I've been following this thread for a while, and this is kind of
ridiculous. Can someone please tell me why you can't just use Solona to
solve the capchas? You can't say it's the principal of the thing because as
we speak, we're all using some outside alternative to access our computers
(unless you're on a mac, of course), so why not just use Solona as a tool,
just like Jaws or a braille display, and get past this accessibility
hurdle?


On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> Hello David and everyone,
>
>    And I repeatedly pointed out that one with a hearing impairment cannot
> use audio captchas. Had folks read my messages more carefully and paid
> attention to the fact that I'm one of those with a hearing disorder I
> wouldn't have had to go over the top. Anyway enough of this lot.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>
>
> Yo Peter, you don't have to be nasty like you are on Pad and other lists
> I've seen you on. People are just pointing out to you the other ways this
> problem can and are being handled.
> ***
> If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of people
> determined to have fun while providing a collective broadcasting
> excellence,
> and if you want to be entertained by said group, then come join us, either
> as a broadcaster listener or both, at ShockWaveRadio, for we are the
> driving
> force of entertainment on the internet. Visit us at
> http://www.shockwaveradio.net
> and follow us on twitter at
> shockwaveradio1
> Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> >    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology
> > will
> > not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much a
> > do
> > has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to
> > help
> > those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
> > individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even
> though
> > I
> > said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
> > certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
> >
> > Peter Donahue
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>

From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 20:34:37 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 13:34:37 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikp59QD-Y8cu6E7LSRyi-jQL057Ti0FGECMvP2r@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>	<001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>	<068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>	<BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>	<003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>	<BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>	<C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>	<AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>	<001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>	<92FC0AD1DE644C2FA84F9CDF088BD203@radio360usa>	<004301cb396e$396f1c80$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<AANLkTikp59QD-Y8cu6E7LSRyi-jQL057Ti0FGECMvP2r@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C63095D.2070805@gmail.com>

  Hello Jamie,

At this time, Solona has one critical flaw. It isn't always available 
because there aren't always sighted volunteers logged in ready to solve 
the CAPTCHAs.

As long as this remains the case, Solona is not acceptable as a complete 
alternative that would let any website operator off the hook for their 
obligations to ensure their CAPTCHA doesn't exclude anyone.

Now, the only way I'd say a company might be able to claim Solona lets 
them off the hook would be if they acted to ensure full and permanent 
funding for the service and they also provided enough time from paid 
employees to ensure Solona had an operator online and ready at all times.

That's a pretty tall tale though.

On 8/11/2010 1:28 PM, Jamie Principato wrote:
> Alright, I've been following this thread for a while, and this is kind of
> ridiculous. Can someone please tell me why you can't just use Solona to
> solve the capchas? You can't say it's the principal of the thing because as
> we speak, we're all using some outside alternative to access our computers
> (unless you're on a mac, of course), so why not just use Solona as a tool,
> just like Jaws or a braille display, and get past this accessibility
> hurdle?
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Peter Donahue<pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>> Hello David and everyone,
>>
>>     And I repeatedly pointed out that one with a hearing impairment cannot
>> use audio captchas. Had folks read my messages more carefully and paid
>> attention to the fact that I'm one of those with a hearing disorder I
>> wouldn't have had to go over the top. Anyway enough of this lot.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Dunphy"<djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>
>>
>> Yo Peter, you don't have to be nasty like you are on Pad and other lists
>> I've seen you on. People are just pointing out to you the other ways this
>> problem can and are being handled.
>> ***
>> If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of people
>> determined to have fun while providing a collective broadcasting
>> excellence,
>> and if you want to be entertained by said group, then come join us, either
>> as a broadcaster listener or both, at ShockWaveRadio, for we are the
>> driving
>> force of entertainment on the internet. Visit us at
>> http://www.shockwaveradio.net
>> and follow us on twitter at
>> shockwaveradio1
>> Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue"<pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>
>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>>     How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology
>>> will
>>> not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much a
>>> do
>>> has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to
>>> help
>>> those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
>>> individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even
>> though
>>> I
>>> said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
>>> certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Wed Aug 11 20:39:35 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:39:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com><001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233><001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl><003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl><005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus><AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com><001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><92FC0AD1DE644C2FA84F9CDF088BD203@radio360usa><004301cb396e$396f1c80$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<AANLkTikp59QD-Y8cu6E7LSRyi-jQL057Ti0FGECMvP2r@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D9672B3E5BD547F7A5C83F1D3BF0658E@hometwxakonvzn>

Amen You hit the nail right on the head! Thanks! RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives


> Alright, I've been following this thread for a while, and this is kind of
> ridiculous. Can someone please tell me why you can't just use Solona to
> solve the capchas? You can't say it's the principal of the thing because 
> as
> we speak, we're all using some outside alternative to access our computers
> (unless you're on a mac, of course), so why not just use Solona as a tool,
> just like Jaws or a braille display, and get past this accessibility
> hurdle?
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Peter Donahue 
> <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>
>> Hello David and everyone,
>>
>>    And I repeatedly pointed out that one with a hearing impairment cannot
>> use audio captchas. Had folks read my messages more carefully and paid
>> attention to the fact that I'm one of those with a hearing disorder I
>> wouldn't have had to go over the top. Anyway enough of this lot.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>
>>
>> Yo Peter, you don't have to be nasty like you are on Pad and other lists
>> I've seen you on. People are just pointing out to you the other ways this
>> problem can and are being handled.
>> ***
>> If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of people
>> determined to have fun while providing a collective broadcasting
>> excellence,
>> and if you want to be entertained by said group, then come join us, 
>> either
>> as a broadcaster listener or both, at ShockWaveRadio, for we are the
>> driving
>> force of entertainment on the internet. Visit us at
>> http://www.shockwaveradio.net
>> and follow us on twitter at
>> shockwaveradio1
>> Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:51 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>
>>
>> > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> >    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology
>> > will
>> > not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much 
>> > a
>> > do
>> > has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to
>> > help
>> > those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
>> > individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even
>> though
>> > I
>> > said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
>> > certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
>> >
>> > Peter Donahue
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > nabs-l:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From datemeyer at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 11 20:36:29 2010
From: datemeyer at sbcglobal.net (David Meyer)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:36:29 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] [il-talk] FW: Free Victor Reader Stream Offer
Message-ID: <346DDE1F2DA140AD9DD5FCB9FBE817AC@dave>



 _____  

From: Kathy Austin [mailto:kathya at guildfortheblind.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 1:42 PM
To: David Meyer
Subject: Free Victor Reader Stream Offer



Win a Victor Reader Stream: Special opportunities are lurking on the Guild
for the Blind's new website!  Thanks to a generous donation, the Guild is
awarding a Victor Reader Stream to two deserving individuals who can tell us
how this popular personal listening device will enhance and bring joy to
their lives.  Check out the "Don't Miss" button on the Guild's home page  at
www.guildfortheblind.org <http://www.guildfortheblind.org/>  for more
details and information on how you can be a part of this special
opportunity.









Kathy Austin

Associate Manager of Rehabilitation Services

Guild for the Blind

180 N. Michigan Ave., Suite 1700

Chicago, IL 60601

312-236-8569

<mailto:kathya at guildfortheblind.org> kathya at guildfortheblind.org

<http://www.guildfortheblind.org/> www.guildfortheblind.org



The Victor Reader Stream is a great device that puts all your media in the
palm of your hand.  Visit the Guild's website to find out how you can
participate in our Stream giveaway.









No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3062 - Release Date: 08/11/10
01:34:00


_______________________________________________
il-talk mailing list
il-talk at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/il-talk_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for il-talk:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/il-talk_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net



From cowboy0210 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 00:30:11 2010
From: cowboy0210 at gmail.com (Kevin Ledford)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 18:30:11 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Fox News - Blind Car Demo
In-Reply-To: <459007.20424.qm@web65813.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <459007.20424.qm@web65813.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim6KT1A8RxFyBG58X9sZAYmoasY=ZHiw75rSG8d@mail.gmail.com>

  Just found this...

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/07/02/group-car-driven-blind/

   __._,_.___




-- 
Best Regards,

Kevin D. Ledford


"Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do."

- John Wooden

From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 02:12:27 2010
From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:12:27 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikCEro0ijqt+4tN2UbXaAQZDtXGO4rDp1YczMzb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
	<160552557C5A4A618DF3F829E33CFABE@heathersony>
	<AANLkTikCEro0ijqt+4tN2UbXaAQZDtXGO4rDp1YczMzb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZX-xtNmzj1mULGJpSGgNajy_O=u8o-+xGdPzu@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Kerri,
  Not all state libraries have a reading advisor system. When i lived
in Texas, I was able to request hard-copy braille books by speaking to
anyone who happen to answer the phone when I call the library, but
here in Connecticut I am required to speak to an advisor assigned to
me based on my last name. I would suggest calling your state library
and figure out how the book-borrowing system works for your state and
who your reading advisor is (if applicable). You can then ask for his
or her email address. Hope this helps!
   Katie

On 8/11/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Heather and All!
>
> Thanks so much for this!
> When I received the hard-copy braille books from the library, I had
> them sent to me randomly so I didn't call the library or anything.
> When I signed up for Web Braille, and then in 2008 got my victor
> stream, a lady named Terry Methony helped me both times. I do have her
> email address...would she be my "reading advisor?"
>
> Also what are the differences between the Iowa canes and the straight
> fiberglass NFB canes? I'm trying to figure out what to get as a
> backup...I have and love my straight NFB cane now...but I've been told
> the Iowa ones are a lot sturdier and don't break nearly as easily or
> often!
>
> Thanks,
> Kerri
>
> On 8/11/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Dear Kerri,
>> I too am an avid braille reader since childhood, and I am  proficient
>> with a braille display but there is no feeling like the stillness and
>> silence of a hard-copy braille book. So, I encourage you to keep
>> borrowing braille books. Here's how I do it and it works well for me
>> as I don't like bothering with the time it takes to call in my
>> requests and try to call at a time when my reader adviser is
>> available.
>>
>> Every reader adviser in the Library Service has an e-mail address. I
>> suggest you get the e-mail address of your reader adviser. Next, you
>> can, indeed, go on to the website of the National Library Service for
>> the Blind and Physically handicapped and search for the books you want
>> by numerous search criteria. For example, author, title, subject.
>> Make a list of the books you want in an e-mail, being sure to include
>> the catalogue number, and then simply e-mail your requests to your
>> reader adviser.
>>
>> It is important for braille readers to remember that if everyone stops
>> borrowing braille books the government might decide that there is no
>> longer a need for hard-copy braille books and dismantle the service.
>> Reading braille on a book, as opposed to a braille display, is much
>> faster and it is important to keep reading speed up. One doesn't have
>> to take braille books on the bus or the plane on a flight, but reading
>> a book at home is a good idea for the reasons which I've mentioned.
>> The website for the National Library Service is:
>> www.loc.gov/nls
>> Warmest regards,
>>
>> Heather Field
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>>
>>
>> Hi All!!
>>
>> I have a couple of questions.
>>
>> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
>> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
>> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
>> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
>> through email?
>>
>> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
>> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
>> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
>> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
>> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
>> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
>> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
>> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
>> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
>> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
>> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
>> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
>> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
>> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
>> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
>> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
>> get any relevant results.
>> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>>
>> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
>> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
>> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
>> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
>> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
>> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>>
>> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
>> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
>> label to say...then stick it on the can.
>> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>>
>> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
>> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
>> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
>> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
>> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
>> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
>> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
>> light it is is already chipping.
>> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
>> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
>> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
>> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com
>


From mgoalball at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 02:32:48 2010
From: mgoalball at gmail.com (Matt McCubbin)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:32:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikCEro0ijqt+4tN2UbXaAQZDtXGO4rDp1YczMzb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>	<160552557C5A4A618DF3F829E33CFABE@heathersony>
	<AANLkTikCEro0ijqt+4tN2UbXaAQZDtXGO4rDp1YczMzb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C635D50.2090907@gmail.com>

Kerri,
The Iowa canes cost about $25, and you do not need to be a resident of 
Iowa to purchase them. Please call the Iowa Department for the Blind at
515-281-1333, and you will be able to order one.
As for comparing them to the NFB cane, you won't find anything more 
sturdy and solid. It is a little bit heavier than your fiberglass or 
carbon Fiber straight cane, but the extra weight is worth the increased 
durability of the cane.
Hope this helps, and please feel free to write if you have further 
questions.
Best regards,
Matt

On 8/11/2010 2:24 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
> Hi Heather and All!
>
> Thanks so much for this!
> When I received the hard-copy braille books from the library, I had
> them sent to me randomly so I didn't call the library or anything.
> When I signed up for Web Braille, and then in 2008 got my victor
> stream, a lady named Terry Methony helped me both times. I do have her
> email address...would she be my "reading advisor?"
>
> Also what are the differences between the Iowa canes and the straight
> fiberglass NFB canes? I'm trying to figure out what to get as a
> backup...I have and love my straight NFB cane now...but I've been told
> the Iowa ones are a lot sturdier and don't break nearly as easily or
> often!
>
> Thanks,
> Kerri
>
> On 8/11/10, H. Field<missheather at comcast.net>  wrote:
>> Dear Kerri,
>> I too am an avid braille reader since childhood, and I am  proficient
>> with a braille display but there is no feeling like the stillness and
>> silence of a hard-copy braille book. So, I encourage you to keep
>> borrowing braille books. Here's how I do it and it works well for me
>> as I don't like bothering with the time it takes to call in my
>> requests and try to call at a time when my reader adviser is
>> available.
>>
>> Every reader adviser in the Library Service has an e-mail address. I
>> suggest you get the e-mail address of your reader adviser. Next, you
>> can, indeed, go on to the website of the National Library Service for
>> the Blind and Physically handicapped and search for the books you want
>> by numerous search criteria. For example, author, title, subject.
>> Make a list of the books you want in an e-mail, being sure to include
>> the catalogue number, and then simply e-mail your requests to your
>> reader adviser.
>>
>> It is important for braille readers to remember that if everyone stops
>> borrowing braille books the government might decide that there is no
>> longer a need for hard-copy braille books and dismantle the service.
>> Reading braille on a book, as opposed to a braille display, is much
>> faster and it is important to keep reading speed up. One doesn't have
>> to take braille books on the bus or the plane on a flight, but reading
>> a book at home is a good idea for the reasons which I've mentioned.
>> The website for the National Library Service is:
>> www.loc.gov/nls
>> Warmest regards,
>>
>> Heather Field
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten"<kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>>
>>
>> Hi All!!
>>
>> I have a couple of questions.
>>
>> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
>> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
>> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
>> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
>> through email?
>>
>> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
>> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
>> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
>> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
>> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
>> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
>> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
>> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
>> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
>> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
>> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
>> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
>> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
>> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
>> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
>> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
>> get any relevant results.
>> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>>
>> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
>> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
>> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
>> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
>> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
>> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>>
>> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
>> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
>> label to say...then stick it on the can.
>> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>>
>> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
>> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
>> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
>> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
>> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
>> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
>> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
>> light it is is already chipping.
>> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
>> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
>> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
>> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mgoalball%40gmail.com


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 02:54:33 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 22:54:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
In-Reply-To: <D9672B3E5BD547F7A5C83F1D3BF0658E@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <mailman.28.1281459604.5871.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<01ac01cb38c3$747dc9d0$5d795d70$@com>
	<001b01cb38ca$118d4010$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<068239D04F84449685A22B5075B834DE@Cptr233>
	<001501cb38d1$6cad5410$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS7F524F00944AF4C6612718B950@phx.gbl>
	<003701cb38d2$e47bfe50$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS3CA67D25760D1651A9B3E8B950@phx.gbl>
	<005101cb38ec$5b41fe40$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<C90A5C9AEAD64C7B9B8D71DD70E354F4@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikdCy7Pg9370TqsAvrfmNvt8M6rRouEm2Lp87=Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<001f01cb38f7$b36ddbb0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<92FC0AD1DE644C2FA84F9CDF088BD203@radio360usa>
	<004301cb396e$396f1c80$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<AANLkTikp59QD-Y8cu6E7LSRyi-jQL057Ti0FGECMvP2r@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9672B3E5BD547F7A5C83F1D3BF0658E@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiksBPJ0G-Y=XoQQUyQN0x3YvLr21_eAmS8UXgoe@mail.gmail.com>

I have encountered just such a word verification on a website for a
collection of tex-tbased roleplaying games by Skotos,
Inc.(www.skotos.net). For their forum registration, they require you
to do a word verification, which is often "What is 4 pouls 9?" or
something similar. It is text only, so my screenreader can read it
just fine, and I've never had troulbe determining the answer.

I don't see why all sites don't use word verification versus visual
capchas...they are much easier to use for everyone, not just the
blind. As a sighted person, I always preferred this question and
answer.

My two cents,
Jewel

On 8/11/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
> Amen You hit the nail right on the head! Thanks! RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>
>
>> Alright, I've been following this thread for a while, and this is kind of
>> ridiculous. Can someone please tell me why you can't just use Solona to
>> solve the capchas? You can't say it's the principal of the thing because
>> as
>> we speak, we're all using some outside alternative to access our computers
>> (unless you're on a mac, of course), so why not just use Solona as a tool,
>> just like Jaws or a braille display, and get past this accessibility
>> hurdle?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Peter Donahue
>> <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>
>>> Hello David and everyone,
>>>
>>>    And I repeatedly pointed out that one with a hearing impairment cannot
>>> use audio captchas. Had folks read my messages more carefully and paid
>>> attention to the fact that I'm one of those with a hearing disorder I
>>> wouldn't have had to go over the top. Anyway enough of this lot.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 10:07 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>>
>>>
>>> Yo Peter, you don't have to be nasty like you are on Pad and other lists
>>> I've seen you on. People are just pointing out to you the other ways this
>>> problem can and are being handled.
>>> ***
>>> If you want a station that dares to be different, has a group of people
>>> determined to have fun while providing a collective broadcasting
>>> excellence,
>>> and if you want to be entertained by said group, then come join us,
>>> either
>>> as a broadcaster listener or both, at ShockWaveRadio, for we are the
>>> driving
>>> force of entertainment on the internet. Visit us at
>>> http://www.shockwaveradio.net
>>> and follow us on twitter at
>>> shockwaveradio1
>>> Check us out, you'll be glad you did!
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 9:51 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CAPTCHA Alternatives
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hello everyone,
>>> >
>>> >    How many times do I need to repeat myself? Audio CAPTCHA technology
>>> > will
>>> > not work for those with hearing impairments or who are deaf-blind! Much
>>> >
>>> > a
>>> > do
>>> > has been made over auditory CAPTCHA solutions but this does nothing to
>>> > help
>>> > those with hearing loss. Future solutions need to include this group of
>>> > individuals. Sorry but this audio captcha stuff is getting old even
>>> though
>>> > I
>>> > said several times that those with hearing loss are still locked out of
>>> > certain Web resources due to captchas of any kind.
>>> >
>>> > Peter Donahue
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> > nabs-l:
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 03:35:35 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:35:35 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com>

Dear listers,
  I don't mean to be argumentative or anything.  But, Peter, I'm
curious about one thing.  Do you use jaws, or any sort of screen
reader?  Because, to me, it would seem that those aren't accessible by
the standards you're using to judge captchas.  What's the difference?
 Respectfully,
Kirt Manwaring

On 8/10/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello again everyone,
>
>     Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely
> install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
> texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great success.
> When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as well
> as your normal IM user list.
> I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap top,
> and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This works
> well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.
>
> Cordially,
> Gil Vickery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
>> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
>> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
>> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
>> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone that
>> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
>> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it with
>> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>>
>> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
>> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
>> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we try
>> to change it?  At least there is an audio
>> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even better,
>> I was even able to solve it which is more
>> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>
>>>I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>>cellphone.
>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>>><KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>>Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly to
>>>> the
>>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>>> others
>>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>>> and
>>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>>
>>>> Warmly,
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>>> History
>>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and am
>>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>
>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>
>>>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>>>> from
>>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>>> have
>>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>>> applications
>>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>>> cell
>>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>>
>>>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site
>>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our votes
>>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>>> CAPTCHAS
>>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the
>>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>>
>>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>>> et
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>nfbcs mailing list
>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>nfbcs:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>


From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Aug 12 08:16:13 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 03:16:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Post Your Job Openings on	www.teachblindstudents.org!
Message-ID: <auto-000164059783@mailfront2.g2host.com>


>
>Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>Content-Type: multipart/related;
>         boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB38AC.BD8B02F5";
>         type="multipart/alternative"
>
>[]
>Free Job Postings on teachblindstudents.org!
>
>We are pleased to announce that
><http://www.teachblindstudents.org/>www.teachblindstudents.org will 
>provide a free forum to post job listings in the field of blindness 
>education. We recognize that schools and other educational entities 
>are eager to find talented and well-qualified professionals to 
>educate their blind students, and we want to help with this effort! 
>We also encourage university teacher preparation programs to post 
>their vacancies on our site. If you would like to post a job 
>announcement, please visit 
><http://www.teachblindstudents.org/>www.teachblindstudents.org. You 
>will find a link to view and submit jobs on our homepage. Please 
>keep in mind that this resource is new and we are just beginning to 
>build our list of employment opportunities. Help us spread the word 
>about this new service! If you need additional information, please 
>contact me, I will be happy to answer your questions.
>
>Thanks,
>Rosy
>
>
>Rosy Carranza
>Manager of Program Services
>Department of Affiliate Action
>National Federation of the Blind
>200 E. Wells Street
>Baltimore, MD 21230
>Phone: (410) 659-9314, ext. 2283
>Email: rcarranza at nfb.org
>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
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From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 13:30:59 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:30:59 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49CEB702-6BDC-4DF1-AC6B-0270485EC058@gmail.com>

If he can't hear well enough, he could perfectly use a braille display with any screen reader, which is probably what he's doing. I think the problem here is very simple: he can use any of the available captcha solving tools, but he doesn't want to just because he doesn't agree with the mere idea of a captcha existing. We might agree with him or not, but given that it's his opinion, I think that keeping this thread alive is only going to make more and more people angry :).

Ignasi
On Aug 11, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> Dear listers,
>  I don't mean to be argumentative or anything.  But, Peter, I'm
> curious about one thing.  Do you use jaws, or any sort of screen
> reader?  Because, to me, it would seem that those aren't accessible by
> the standards you're using to judge captchas.  What's the difference?
> Respectfully,
> Kirt Manwaring
> 
> On 8/10/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hello again everyone,
>> 
>>    Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely
>> install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.
>> 
>> Peter Donahue
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>> 
>> 
>> After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
>> texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great success.
>> When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as well
>> as your normal IM user list.
>> I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap top,
>> and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This works
>> well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.
>> 
>> Cordially,
>> Gil Vickery
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>> 
>> 
>>> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
>>> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
>>> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
>>> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
>>> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone that
>>> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
>>> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it with
>>> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>>> 
>>> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
>>> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
>>> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we try
>>> to change it?  At least there is an audio
>>> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even better,
>>> I was even able to solve it which is more
>>> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Steve
>>> 
>>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>>> cellphone.
>>> 
>>>> Mike
>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>>>> <KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly to
>>>>> the
>>>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>>>> others
>>>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>>>> and
>>>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Gary
>>>>> 
>>>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>>>> History
>>>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and am
>>>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>> 
>>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>> 
>>>>>   We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>>>>> from
>>>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>>>> applications
>>>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>>>> cell
>>>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>>> 
>>>>>   We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site
>>>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our votes
>>>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>>>> CAPTCHAS
>>>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the
>>>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>>>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>>>> et
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nfbcs:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Aug 12 15:16:44 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:16:44 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
References: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a201cb3a31$60211360$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    I use JFW 11 and have a moderate hearing impairment. It's to the point 
that I keep my PC volume rather loud and view the HD channels when watching 
T.V. I've used hearing aids but don't get the total sound spectrum. Most 
listening devices do great at giving you the highs but they stink where 
reproducing low-frequency sounds are concerned. Many of the audio captchas 
I've encountered are in the low frequency end and are so garbled that even 
sighted persons can't understand them let alone someone with any degree of 
hearing loss.

    But again this misses the point. If we're going to engage in fundraising 
or other activities that require the interaction with an Internet resource 
more effort needs to be made to ensure that that resource is usable by a 
large number of us including those with additional disabilities such as 
hearing loss. If information for texting Pepsi via cell phone and PC had 
been provided this thread might not have been on this list. ?Any way we're 
preparing to move in two weeks so I need to concentrate on that. All the 
best.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications


Dear listers,
  I don't mean to be argumentative or anything.  But, Peter, I'm
curious about one thing.  Do you use jaws, or any sort of screen
reader?  Because, to me, it would seem that those aren't accessible by
the standards you're using to judge captchas.  What's the difference?
 Respectfully,
Kirt Manwaring

On 8/10/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello again everyone,
>
>     Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely
> install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
> texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great success.
> When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as 
> well
> as your normal IM user list.
> I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap top,
> and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This 
> works
> well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.
>
> Cordially,
> Gil Vickery
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
>> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
>> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
>> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
>> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone 
>> that
>> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
>> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it with
>> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>>
>> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
>> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
>> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we try
>> to change it?  At least there is an audio
>> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even 
>> better,
>> I was even able to solve it which is more
>> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>
>>>I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>>cellphone.
>>
>>>Mike
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>>><KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>>Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly 
>>>> to
>>>> the
>>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>>> others
>>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>>> and
>>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>>
>>>> Warmly,
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>>> History
>>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and am
>>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>
>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>
>>>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>>>> from
>>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>>> have
>>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>>> applications
>>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>>> cell
>>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>>
>>>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web site
>>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our 
>>>> votes
>>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>>> CAPTCHAS
>>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see the
>>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>>
>>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>>> et
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>
>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>nfbcs mailing list
>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>nfbcs:
>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nfbcs mailing list
> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nfbcs:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 12 15:38:38 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:38:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <00a201cb3a31$60211360$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a201cb3a31$60211360$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS147F88B94B90CB4EEC7F6D8B970@phx.gbl>


We agree that this should be done.  The problem is we do have a contest to 
vote for now so lets get this done and then start to prod companies to 
include accessibility for everyincluding the deff/blind.
Thanks
Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:16 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications

> Hello everyone,
>
>    I use JFW 11 and have a moderate hearing impairment. It's to the point
> that I keep my PC volume rather loud and view the HD channels when 
> watching
> T.V. I've used hearing aids but don't get the total sound spectrum. Most
> listening devices do great at giving you the highs but they stink where
> reproducing low-frequency sounds are concerned. Many of the audio captchas
> I've encountered are in the low frequency end and are so garbled that even
> sighted persons can't understand them let alone someone with any degree of
> hearing loss.
>
>    But again this misses the point. If we're going to engage in 
> fundraising
> or other activities that require the interaction with an Internet resource
> more effort needs to be made to ensure that that resource is usable by a
> large number of us including those with additional disabilities such as
> hearing loss. If information for texting Pepsi via cell phone and PC had
> been provided this thread might not have been on this list. ?Any way we're
> preparing to move in two weeks so I need to concentrate on that. All the
> best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Dear listers,
>  I don't mean to be argumentative or anything.  But, Peter, I'm
> curious about one thing.  Do you use jaws, or any sort of screen
> reader?  Because, to me, it would seem that those aren't accessible by
> the standards you're using to judge captchas.  What's the difference?
> Respectfully,
> Kirt Manwaring
>
> On 8/10/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>     Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely
>> install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
>> texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great 
>> success.
>> When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as
>> well
>> as your normal IM user list.
>> I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap top,
>> and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This
>> works
>> well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Gil Vickery
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>>> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
>>> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
>>> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
>>> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
>>> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone
>>> that
>>> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
>>> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it with
>>> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
>>> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
>>> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we try
>>> to change it?  At least there is an audio
>>> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even
>>> better,
>>> I was even able to solve it which is more
>>> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>>I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>>>cellphone.
>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>>>><KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>>>Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly
>>>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>>>> others
>>>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>>>> and
>>>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>>>> History
>>>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and 
>>>>> am
>>>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>>
>>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>>>>> from
>>>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>>>> applications
>>>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>>>> cell
>>>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>>>
>>>>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web 
>>>>> site
>>>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our
>>>>> votes
>>>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>>>> CAPTCHAS
>>>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see 
>>>>> the
>>>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>>>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>>>> et
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>nfbcs mailing list
>>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>nfbcs:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Thu Aug 12 16:43:10 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:43:10 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
References: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com><00a201cb3a31$60211360$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS147F88B94B90CB4EEC7F6D8B970@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <003901cb3a3d$73d276e0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    And be sure to include information about texting options in addition to 
cell phone text messages to enable those with difficulty using captchas to 
participate without encountering them. Had this been done in the first place 
this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications



We agree that this should be done.  The problem is we do have a contest to
vote for now so lets get this done and then start to prod companies to
include accessibility for everyincluding the deff/blind.
Thanks
Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:16 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications

> Hello everyone,
>
>    I use JFW 11 and have a moderate hearing impairment. It's to the point
> that I keep my PC volume rather loud and view the HD channels when
> watching
> T.V. I've used hearing aids but don't get the total sound spectrum. Most
> listening devices do great at giving you the highs but they stink where
> reproducing low-frequency sounds are concerned. Many of the audio captchas
> I've encountered are in the low frequency end and are so garbled that even
> sighted persons can't understand them let alone someone with any degree of
> hearing loss.
>
>    But again this misses the point. If we're going to engage in
> fundraising
> or other activities that require the interaction with an Internet resource
> more effort needs to be made to ensure that that resource is usable by a
> large number of us including those with additional disabilities such as
> hearing loss. If information for texting Pepsi via cell phone and PC had
> been provided this thread might not have been on this list. ?Any way we're
> preparing to move in two weeks so I need to concentrate on that. All the
> best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
> Dear listers,
>  I don't mean to be argumentative or anything.  But, Peter, I'm
> curious about one thing.  Do you use jaws, or any sort of screen
> reader?  Because, to me, it would seem that those aren't accessible by
> the standards you're using to judge captchas.  What's the difference?
> Respectfully,
> Kirt Manwaring
>
> On 8/10/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hello again everyone,
>>
>>     Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely
>> install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
>> texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great
>> success.
>> When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as
>> well
>> as your normal IM user list.
>> I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap top,
>> and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This
>> works
>> well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Gil Vickery
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>>> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
>>> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
>>> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
>>> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
>>> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone
>>> that
>>> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
>>> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it with
>>> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
>>> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
>>> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we try
>>> to change it?  At least there is an audio
>>> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even
>>> better,
>>> I was even able to solve it which is more
>>> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>
>>>>I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>>>cellphone.
>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>>>><KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>>>Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly
>>>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>>>> others
>>>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>>>> and
>>>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>>>> History
>>>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and
>>>>> am
>>>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>>
>>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>>>>> from
>>>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>>>> have
>>>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>>>> applications
>>>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>>>> cell
>>>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>>>
>>>>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web
>>>>> site
>>>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our
>>>>> votes
>>>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>>>> CAPTCHAS
>>>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see
>>>>> the
>>>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>>>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>>>> et
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>nfbcs mailing list
>>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>nfbcs:
>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nfbcs mailing list
>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nfbcs:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>

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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 19:21:45 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:21:45 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Two leadership opportunities with AIDemocracy (based
	anywhere in the US)
Message-ID: <A368EA4A37FF4F19A8695397CC595B66@Rufus>


 




----- Forwarded by David Hirschmann/dhirsch/AmericanU on 08/10/2010 09:41 PM
----- 

From:        "Karen Showalter, Americans for Informed Democracy"
<Karen at aidemocracy.org
<http://us.mc322.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Karen at aidemocracy.org> > 
To:        dhirsch at american.edu
<http://us.mc322.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dhirsch at american.edu>  
Date:        07/30/2010 12:41 PM 
Subject:        Two new leadership opportunities with AIDemocracy (based
anywhere in the US) 

  _____  





 
<http://org2.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=tGOH1aZJ7kZ8Cu%2BUt2U
4SFxVxW9bG8uZ> 




Dear David,

Ever heard Margaret Mead's famous quote that a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can change the world? Student activists have played a
decisive role in some of the biggest events of the last century, including
campaigns for civil rights, labor rights, divestment from Darfur, anti-war
protests, and the 2008 election of US President Barack Obama.

Americans for Informed Democracy's vision is that every American young
person is empowered to effectively contribute to peaceful, healthy, just and
sustainable solutions to the world's greatest challenges. We are currently
accepting applications for two pivotal positions in our network: Student
Advisory Board members and Regional Coordinators (West Coast, Southwest and
Gulf Coast regions only).

The Student Advisory Board will further ensure that student voices are
present in AIDemocracy's decision-making and programs. The advisory board
will be composed of 5-8 students who will shadow AIDemocracy's governing
board and serve as a student governance voice for the organization. They
represent the interests and concerns of student chapters and members. SAB
members are nominated and elected by members of the network.

Regional Coordinators (RCs) play a critical role in growing and cultivating
the AIDemocracy network of over 23,000 students and alumni on campuses
nation-wide. They lead member and chapter recruitment in their region; build
relationships with students, university and political leaders; and attend
regional and national events on behalf of the AIDemocracy network. They have
proven experience working with student groups, and are looking to expand
their leadership and organizing skills. 

Enough said? Ready to get started? Email applications to
opportunities at aidemocracy.org
<http://us.mc322.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=opportunities at aidemocracy.org>
. Contact karen at aidemocracy.org
<http://us.mc322.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=karen at aidemocracy.org>  with
questions. 
Need more information? See the complete position descriptions below. 
Position Description: Student Advisory Board
Americans for Informed Democracy announces the formation of a new Student
Advisory Board (SAB).  The SAB will further ensure that student voices are
present in AIDemocracy's decision-making and programs.  The advisory board
will be composed of 5-8 students who will shadow AIDemocracy's governing
board and serve as a student governance voice for the organization.  They
represent the interests and concerns of student chapters and members. SAB
members are nominated and elected by members of the network.

SAB member responsibilities: 

*	Decide, along with staff, which issues proposed at our annual
conference should be chosen for the next year's campaigns 

*	Inform and provide feedback on organization strategy, including how
we work with students, the structure of the network, 

*	Provide a strategic steer on existing campaigns and approach through
the year 

*	Vote and be present (in-person and/or online) during important
organizational decision making 

*	Attend AIDemocracy's annual conference 

*	Maintain regular communication with AIDemocracy staff 

*	Serve for a 1.5 year term

Eligibility: applicants should be: 

*	An active member of the AIDemocracy network - may include RCs,
Chapter Leaders, Chapter Members, and other members who have worked with
AIDemocracy in the past year 

*	An undergraduate or graduate student 

*	Experienced organizers: ideally have 2 years experience organizing
students and/or student groups on their campus 

*	Very familiar with at least one of our program areas: Global Peace
and Security, Global Environment, Global Health, Global Development, either
through coursework or organizing experience. 

*	Excited to learn about strategic planning and governance of a
non-profit student organization 

*	Available to serve for an 18-month term, and physically present in
the US for at least 15 of those months 

*	Dedicated, organized and responsible 

*	Note: This is a voluntary/unpaid position

Compensation:
AIDemocracy will cover position-related expenses, such as travel to annual
board meetings and the national conference. SAB members will also receive
personalized training and support from experienced AID staff and board in
order to perform their responsibilities. This is a great position for
student organizers who want to learn more about the governance of a national
organization. Other than the benefits listed above, this is an unpaid
position. 
Application/election process: 

*	Send email nominations with candidate's 1) name, 2) university, 3)
email address, and 4) phone number, along with 5) two-four sentences
explaining why you think they will be good for this position. Send
nominations to opportunities at aidemocracy.org
<http://us.mc322.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=opportunities at aidemocracy.org>
with "SAB Nominee!" in the subject line by August 16! Nominate someone you
feel would be great for this position or don't be shy, nominate yourself! 

*	Nominated members will be contacted by AIDemocracy staff by August
20 for interest/election statement which will be shared with the network for
voting 

*	Voting will be open for two weeks: August 23 - September 3. 

*	Student Advisory Board will be announced the second week of
September!

Position Description: Regional Coordinator
Regional Coordinators (RCs) play a critical role in growing and cultivating
the AIDemocracy network of over 23,000 students and alumni on campuses
nation-wide. They lead member and chapter recruitment in their region; build
relationships with students, university and political leaders; and attend
regional and national events on behalf of the AIDemocracy network. They have
proven experience working with student groups, and are looking to expand
their leadership and organizing skills. RCs ultimately help challenge
injustice, take action and promote social change on their campuses, in their
region and nationally.

Current regional openings: 

*	Northwest: WA, OR, ID,MT, WY 

*	Southwest: AZ, NM, UT, CO, NV, CA 

*	Gulf Coast: OK, AR, TX, LA, MS

Some of these regions may have more than one Regional Coordinator.

Responsibilities: 

*	Lead member and chapter recruitment in the region. Each RC will
develop clear and realistic recruitment targets, with the help of
AIDemocracy staff. 

*	Provide support, guidance and training to student organizers.
Support advocacy efforts in the region with help from AIDemocracy staff. 

*	Organize regional events and an in-district lobby day with help of
AIDemocracy staff. 

*	Attend regional and national events on behalf of the AIDemocracy
network, ranging from policy debates to student internship and opportunities
fairs. 

*	Build relationships with students, university and political leaders,
both online and via face-to-face meetings and events. 

*	Facilitate student communication across the region, for example by
connecting student leaders and organizations, creating Facebook groups, and
circulating information via email. 

*	Keep students in the region up-to-date with the latest news and
opportunities from Americans for Informed Democracy. Connect students to
AIDemocracy staff, programs and opportunities. 

*	Make regular contributions to the AIDemocracy online network: write
monthly contributions for AIDemocracy's blog - The World InSight, post
relevant regional news and events on AIDemocracy's Facebook Group, tweet
about regional events. 

*	Communicate with the main office on a bi-weekly basis. 

*	Contribute to AIDemocracy's strategy and program development
processes via periodic online surveys, evaluations and focus groups.

You'll like this position if you: 

*	Like working with friends or as part of a group 

*	Enjoy meeting people and staying connected 

*	Enjoy connecting people with one another 

*	Like keeping up-to-date with and sharing the latest news 

*	Enjoy impacting the world beyond your campus 

*	Like encouraging people to try new things 

*	Enjoy a challenge 

*	Are organized 

*	Enjoy writing

Training you'll get/skills you'll gain: 

*	Recruitment & leadership development 

*	Communications, new media & messaging 

*	Event planning & promotion 

*	Meeting facilitation 

*	Campaign strategy, planning, and implementation 

*	Network building

What's required: 

*	Willingness to invest time and energy to building your organizing
and leadership skills, as well as your understanding of U.S. foreign policy.
Strong interest in doing the same among your peers. 

*	Excitement to work outside your comfort level and your campus,
reaching out to your local community, policymakers, and the broader region. 

*	At least one year's worth of experience in/with the AIDemocracy
network (this might range from reading our newsletters to participating in
events to leading a chapter). 

*	Experience working with student groups and/or organizing. 

*	Attendance at the AIDemocracy Regional Coordinator Retreat in August
(we'll cover the cost). 

*	Bi-weekly communications with AIDemocracy staff. 

*	Physical presence in the U.S. during both semesters of your academic
year (if you are studying abroad, please apply again next year!). 

*	Access to a computer, internet and a phone. 

*	Commitment to work around 10-15 hours/month. Some months may be
more, some may be less.

Compensation:
AIDemocracy will cover position-related expenses, such as travel to
regional/national conferences, in-district lobby visits, or other
universities, materials and funds to put on events, etc. RCs will also
receive personalized training and support from experienced AID staff in
order to perform their responsibilities. This is a great position for
student activists who want to take their organizing and leadership skills to
the next level. Other than the benefits listed above, this is an unpaid
position. 
Application process:
Send a resume and cover letter explaining why you'd be a good fit for this
position to opportunities at aidemocracy.org
<http://us.mc322.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=opportunities at aidemocracy.org>
. RC applications accepted on a rolling basis. Questions? Contact
karen at aidemocracy.org
<http://us.mc322.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=karen at aidemocracy.org> .

  


 
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Copyright C 2002-2007 Americans for Informed Democracy - 218 D St SE, 1st
Floor, Washington, D.C. 20003 - (202) 544 9662 -
<http://www.aidemocracy.org/> www.aidemocracy.org
	




-- 
Karen Saba
DisAbility is a State of Mind,
War is Mindless.





From pyyhkala at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 20:41:41 2010
From: pyyhkala at gmail.com (Mika Pyyhkala)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:41:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
Message-ID: <AANLkTimuFZjOqu=-du-2naOgaqVQxFOGdnUNxiy9F9kB@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
http://m.facebook.com
about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
done in that stripped down interface.

I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?

As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
same status message, include an external link and other peoples
Facebook profile.

There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
your own status update or post.

So Jaws might read something like:
"I'm going to the
link Boston Common
with
link Jane Smith"

I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.

There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
work such as the chat to some extent.

The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
this up with in our leadership.

Best,
Mika Pyyhkala
MA state President & national board member
http://twitter.com/pyyhkala


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Thu Aug 12 21:46:37 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 17:46:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
Message-ID: <20100812214637.29290.18922@web1>

Mika,

I use System Access, but I hear this issue happens with other screen 
readers, too. When I log into the main site and try to use it, I notice 
that my screen reader lags. So, for example, I may be trying to do 
something and get a delayed response or no response from the screen 
reader. The folks at SEROTEK tell me that it's an issue with the type 
of content on the Facebook site (i.e. the code it's written with). I 
hear NVDA doesn't have this problem, but I don't really like NVDA with 
the web as I find the system a little clumsy and ungainly to work with. 
For that reason, I generally use the Facebook app that comes with my 
SAMNET subscription or the mobile site.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi,

> I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
> http://m.facebook.com
> about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
> done in that stripped down interface.

> I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?

> As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
> same status message, include an external link and other peoples
> Facebook profile.

> There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
> where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
> your own status update or post.

> So Jaws might read something like:
> "I'm going to the
> link Boston Common
> with
> link Jane Smith"

> I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
> here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
> latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.

> There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
> app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
> work such as the chat to some extent.

> The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
> but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
> this up with in our leadership.

> Best,
> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA state President & national board member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 22:06:24 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:06:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
References: <AANLkTimuFZjOqu=-du-2naOgaqVQxFOGdnUNxiy9F9kB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B0EB6867E4EB46AAA21AA5AE8653C2C8@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Mika:
I have had more success with the mobile site also, and was wondering how to 
link friends names and places in status updates using JAWS. I used to rely 
on the text message option but now when replying to a text a message is sent 
to the users inbox rather than commenting on the status.
I've found the iPhone facebook app crashes a lot so I primarily use 
Twitbook.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mika Pyyhkala" <pyyhkala at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site


> Hi,
>
> I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
> http://m.facebook.com
> about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
> done in that stripped down interface.
>
> I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?
>
> As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
> same status message, include an external link and other peoples
> Facebook profile.
>
> There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
> where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
> your own status update or post.
>
> So Jaws might read something like:
> "I'm going to the
> link Boston Common
> with
> link Jane Smith"
>
> I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
> here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
> latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.
>
> There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
> app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
> work such as the chat to some extent.
>
> The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
> but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
> this up with in our leadership.
>
> Best,
> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA state President & national board member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 22:11:48 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:11:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
References: <AANLkTimuFZjOqu=-du-2naOgaqVQxFOGdnUNxiy9F9kB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <068F653452FD40A48369970B01E834E5@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Mika:
I have had more success with the mobile site also, and was wondering how to 
link friends names and places in status updates using JAWS. I used to rely 
on the text message option but now when replying to a text a message is sent 
to the users inbox rather than commenting on the status.
I've found the iPhone facebook app crashes a lot so I primarily use 
TwitBook.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mika Pyyhkala" <pyyhkala at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site


> Hi,
>
> I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
> http://m.facebook.com
> about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
> done in that stripped down interface.
>
> I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?
>
> As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
> same status message, include an external link and other peoples
> Facebook profile.
>
> There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
> where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
> your own status update or post.
>
> So Jaws might read something like:
> "I'm going to the
> link Boston Common
> with
> link Jane Smith"
>
> I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
> here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
> latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.
>
> There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
> app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
> work such as the chat to some extent.
>
> The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
> but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
> this up with in our leadership.
>
> Best,
> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA state President & national board member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 22:13:37 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:13:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
References: <AANLkTimuFZjOqu=-du-2naOgaqVQxFOGdnUNxiy9F9kB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9893827E03154325A6396E338990E4C8@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Mika:
I have had more success with the mobile site also, and was wondering how to 
link friends names and places in status updates using JAWS. I used to rely 
on the text message option but now when replying to a text a message is sent 
to the users inbox rather than commenting on the status.
I've found the iPhone facebook app crashes a lot so I primarily use 
TwitBook.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mika Pyyhkala" <pyyhkala at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site


> Hi,
>
> I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
> http://m.facebook.com
> about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
> done in that stripped down interface.
>
> I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?
>
> As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
> same status message, include an external link and other peoples
> Facebook profile.
>
> There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
> where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
> your own status update or post.
>
> So Jaws might read something like:
> "I'm going to the
> link Boston Common
> with
> link Jane Smith"
>
> I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
> here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
> latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.
>
> There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
> app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
> work such as the chat to some extent.
>
> The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
> but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
> this up with in our leadership.
>
> Best,
> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA state President & national board member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 22:20:14 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:20:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
References: <AANLkTimuFZjOqu=-du-2naOgaqVQxFOGdnUNxiy9F9kB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DEDF121CBB54F29A8D801B6AC18CBD2@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Mika:
I have had more success with the mobile site also, and was wondering how to 
link friends names and places in status updates using JAWS. I used to rely 
on the text message option but now when replying to a text a message is sent 
to the users inbox rather than commenting on the status.
I've found the iPhone facebook app crashes a lot so I primarily use 
TwitBook.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mika Pyyhkala" <pyyhkala at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site


> Hi,
>
> I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
> http://m.facebook.com
> about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
> done in that stripped down interface.
>
> I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?
>
> As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
> same status message, include an external link and other peoples
> Facebook profile.
>
> There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
> where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
> your own status update or post.
>
> So Jaws might read something like:
> "I'm going to the
> link Boston Common
> with
> link Jane Smith"
>
> I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
> here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
> latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.
>
> There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
> app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
> work such as the chat to some extent.
>
> The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
> but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
> this up with in our leadership.
>
> Best,
> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA state President & national board member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 22:24:28 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:24:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
References: <AANLkTimuFZjOqu=-du-2naOgaqVQxFOGdnUNxiy9F9kB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC7CDD5BF7174E1FBE51B6BE8FBEA460@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Mika:
I have had more success with the mobile site also, and was wondering how to 
link friends names and places in status updates using JAWS. I used to rely 
on the text message option but now when replying to a text a message is sent 
to the users inbox rather than commenting on the status.
I've found the iPhone facebook app crashes a lot so I primarily use 
TwitBook.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mika Pyyhkala" <pyyhkala at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:41 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site


> Hi,
>
> I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
> http://m.facebook.com
> about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
> done in that stripped down interface.
>
> I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?
>
> As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
> same status message, include an external link and other peoples
> Facebook profile.
>
> There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
> where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
> your own status update or post.
>
> So Jaws might read something like:
> "I'm going to the
> link Boston Common
> with
> link Jane Smith"
>
> I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
> here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
> latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.
>
> There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
> app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
> work such as the chat to some extent.
>
> The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
> but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
> this up with in our leadership.
>
> Best,
> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA state President & national board member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 12 23:26:28 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 19:26:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights
	ofBlind Students
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS32E1E6C5DDD3C52B9BAC18B960@phx.gbl>
References: <auto-000166292429@mailfront1.g2host.com>
	<A051AE43B3E447B2955AB90DEF3A1B3C@PC185582706413>
	<BAY130-DS32E1E6C5DDD3C52B9BAC18B960@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin+GiuO=mAb32fEH0H0hGiU4ony_katcQcj4Cvj@mail.gmail.com>

The latest version of Blackboard, which I believe is 9.1 (?) is, I
believe, fully accessible with JAWs. The company that makes Blackboard
has been working with the NFB to make Blackboard accessible, and there
was a session at the national convention about it. I wasn't there, but
I heard that it was good information.

I expect online courses would be required to be as accessible as
physical classes. Some courses can only be taken online, depending on
the college (my local community college has one such, an introduction
to education, that is only available online).

I'd love to hear from students who are taking line courses just how
accessible they've found it.

~Jewel

On 8/10/10, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com> wrote:
> If you were at the convention Blackboard was there.
> They say that they are commited to full accessibility.  The problem is many
> colleges do not have the new blackboard and of corse improvements can always
> be made .
> Rob
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "autTeal Bloodwortho" <tealbloodworth at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:18 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights
> ofBlind Students
>
>> hello list
>>
>> This is a big step since colleges are requiring these devices but does
>> this include online courses? Is blackboard fully accessible for screen
>> readers?
>>
>>        -Teal
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Freeh,Jessica (by way of David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com>)"
>> <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>> To: <david.andrews at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 2:42 AM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind
>>
>> Students
>>
>>
>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>
>>
>>
>> CONTACT:
>>
>> Chris Danielsen
>>
>> Director of Public Relations
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>
>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>
>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Defends Rights of Blind Students
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Calls for Equal Access to Information and Technology in America's
>> Universities
>>
>>
>>
>> Baltimore, Maryland (August 9, 2010): The
>> National Federation of the Blind (NFB) responded
>> today to recent attacks on the right of blind
>> students to have equal access to technologies
>> used by America's universities and to the
>> textbooks and course materials offered by
>> institutions of higher learning.  The NFB and the
>> United States Department of Justice, Civil Rights
>> Division, have come under attack in recent days
>> for reaching settlements with universities
>> requiring that the universities refrain from
>> purchasing any e-book technology that is not fully accessible to the
>> blind.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National
>> Federation of the Blind, said: "Blind students
>> must have access to the same textbooks and course
>> materials and the same technology to read them as
>> all other students.  This is not only a matter of
>> fairness to blind students but a requirement of
>> federal law.  For this reason, we applaud the
>> United States Department of Justice, acting at
>> our request and pursuant to its mandate to
>> enforce this nation's disability rights laws, for
>> reaching landmark settlements with colleges and
>> universities ensuring that e-book technologies
>> deployed by these institutions will be accessible
>> to all their students.  With the announcement of
>> a new accessible Amazon Kindle, the recent
>> introduction of the Apple iPad, and the promise
>> of future accessible e-book products­many of
>> which would not have been made accessible without
>> our advocacy efforts­colleges and universities
>> will find it increasingly easy to procure e-book
>> technology that benefits everyone.  These
>> settlements benefit not only blind students, who
>> will now have access to the same books at the
>> same time and at the same price as their sighted
>> peers, but also institutions of higher learning,
>> which will no longer incur the administrative
>> burden of producing or procuring accessible books
>> through separate and inferior methods.  To the
>> extent that inaccessible e-book technology
>> remains a barrier to the equal education of the
>> blind, however, the National Federation of the
>> Blind will continue to fight for the educational
>> and legal rights of blind students, and we will
>> not hesitate to call upon the Department of
>> Justice and other government authorities to
>> assist us in doing so when necessary."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ###
>>
>>
>>
>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> With more than 50,000 members, the National
>> Federation of the Blind is the largest and most
>> influential membership organization of blind
>> people in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
>> "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
>> />United States.  The NFB improves blind people's
>> lives through advocacy, education, research,
>> technology, and programs encouraging independence
>> and self-confidence.  It is the leading force in
>> the blindness field today and the voice of the
>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened
>> the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan
>> Institute, the first research and training center
>> in the United States for the blind led by the blind.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Fri Aug 13 02:22:05 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 22:22:05 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Stuff for sale
Message-ID: <20100813022205.11190.15468@web1>

I have some things I'd like to get rid of that some of you might be 
interested in. The list is as follows with pricing information. The 
technology is half off the going retail price.

1 Victor Reader Wave: $130.00
1 APH Handi-Cassette II: $70.00
Plastic slate and stylus set (limited supply): $5.00 a set
Metal slate and stylus set (limited supply): $10.00 a set
Braille blocks for Braille learning/reading (limited supply): $5.00 a block
FS Squeaky Shark for the ultimate in annoying experiences: priceless, literally

Contact me at loneblindjedi at samobile.net for more info or to purchase.

Respectfully,
Jedi

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 04:56:49 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:56:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] disk player for sale
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZX-xtNmzj1mULGJpSGgNajy_O=u8o-+xGdPzu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com><160552557C5A4A618DF3F829E33CFABE@heathersony><AANLkTikCEro0ijqt+4tN2UbXaAQZDtXGO4rDp1YczMzb@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZX-xtNmzj1mULGJpSGgNajy_O=u8o-+xGdPzu@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS1109AE0F7486580C5A751D8B980@phx.gbl>

I have  a usb cd/dvd  for a netbook.  My netbook was stolen.  Name your 
price.  If you are really low income and have a real need for this and 
really can't aford it come and talkw ith me and we'll work something out.
Rob Blachowicz 



From valandkayla at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 05:16:37 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:16:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>

If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll start by giving a brief intro.

I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity of 150 feet.

I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
Valerie,
Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
Regards,
Deborah

If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if i should just call it a loss, please let me know.

Thank you so much for your responces to my last email. 
Look forward to hearing from you.

Val

From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Fri Aug 13 05:28:27 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 01:28:27 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <20100813052827.20591.99766@web2>

Val,

That sounds not too different from logic sighted O and M professionals 
use to explain why blind people shouldn't be cane travel instructors. 
but instead of aggressive dogs, the dangers in question are traffic and 
obstacles.

In fact, that's the same kind of logic sighted people (and some blind 
people, too) use: a blind person can't do X because one has to be able 
to see Y. There are really a small number of activities where that's 
honestly the case, and that number is getting smaller and smaller with 
advances in training, technology, and attitude development.

Well, here's some news for everyone. There are blind cane travel 
instructors and blind 
all-kinds-of-professionals-we've-never-imagined-until-nows.. In other 
words, your lack of sight isn't your limitation, their lack of insight 
is. Just because they've never witnessed a blind dog trainer, that 
doesn't mean it hasn't been, or can't be, done. What about those who 
train their own pets? What about those who train their own guide dogs? 
What about blind people who've managed aggressive dog situations 
before? It's not like aggressive dogs are terribly stealthy or anything.

So in other words, you should fight this even if it means cutting your 
losses with this school and choosing another more open-minded venue.

Good luck.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll start by 
> giving a brief intro.

> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a dog 
> trainer The school is based on California, but students can work from 
> home with the aid of a teacher and people in the area.  I guess it's 
> like a distance learning program.  I would not know however as they 
> will not send me imformation or allow me to enroll inthe program as 
> they said i do not meet their physical requirements.  That is, i do not 
> have a vusual equity of 150 feet.

> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this requirement 
> would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
> Valerie,
> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical 
> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set by the 
> state of California to keep you safe while you are in the program. You 
> would be training dogs in group sessions or in a clients home and it 
> would be imperative that you be able to see dogs approaching you that 
> may be aggressive or confrontational.
> Regards,
> Deborah

> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if i should 
> just call it a loss, please let me know.

> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
> Look forward to hearing from you.

> Val
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 06:48:51 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 00:48:51 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <20100813052827.20591.99766@web2>
References: <20100813052827.20591.99766@web2>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimfyCcGzy80ueEjQRx-xhk1AdJr2Nd-xGp6dhGm@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with what Jedi just said, and take this to court.  This goes
along the same logic as a case involving a guy who wants to be a spine
doctor/cairopractor.  Sorry, I forgot how to spell the word. lol
Anyway, the case was involving this guy who wanted to go to med
school, and they said he couldn't do it because he doesn't meet the
requirements that included sight.  Jedi's right, so I'd go ahead and
take this to court or find a more open venue like the response just
said.
Beth

On 8/12/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> Val,
>
> That sounds not too different from logic sighted O and M professionals
> use to explain why blind people shouldn't be cane travel instructors.
> but instead of aggressive dogs, the dangers in question are traffic and
> obstacles.
>
> In fact, that's the same kind of logic sighted people (and some blind
> people, too) use: a blind person can't do X because one has to be able
> to see Y. There are really a small number of activities where that's
> honestly the case, and that number is getting smaller and smaller with
> advances in training, technology, and attitude development.
>
> Well, here's some news for everyone. There are blind cane travel
> instructors and blind
> all-kinds-of-professionals-we've-never-imagined-until-nows.. In other
> words, your lack of sight isn't your limitation, their lack of insight
> is. Just because they've never witnessed a blind dog trainer, that
> doesn't mean it hasn't been, or can't be, done. What about those who
> train their own pets? What about those who train their own guide dogs?
> What about blind people who've managed aggressive dog situations
> before? It's not like aggressive dogs are terribly stealthy or anything.
>
> So in other words, you should fight this even if it means cutting your
> losses with this school and choosing another more open-minded venue.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll start by
>> giving a brief intro.
>
>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a dog
>> trainer The school is based on California, but students can work from
>> home with the aid of a teacher and people in the area.  I guess it's
>> like a distance learning program.  I would not know however as they
>> will not send me imformation or allow me to enroll inthe program as
>> they said i do not meet their physical requirements.  That is, i do not
>> have a vusual equity of 150 feet.
>
>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this requirement
>> would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>> Valerie,
>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set by the
>> state of California to keep you safe while you are in the program. You
>> would be training dogs in group sessions or in a clients home and it
>> would be imperative that you be able to see dogs approaching you that
>> may be aggressive or confrontational.
>> Regards,
>> Deborah
>
>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if i should
>> just call it a loss, please let me know.
>
>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>
>> Val
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>


From valandkayla at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 07:34:50 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 02:34:50 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimfyCcGzy80ueEjQRx-xhk1AdJr2Nd-xGp6dhGm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100813052827.20591.99766@web2>
	<AANLkTimfyCcGzy80ueEjQRx-xhk1AdJr2Nd-xGp6dhGm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0D9608E6-1541-47BD-B599-318BECEB0372@gmail.com>

I agree with what was said, and to be honest, i would have been highly disappointed if the responces i got were to find another career.

But is there any other way i can fight this with this particular school.   I'm not really familiar with  the ADA, so i wouldn't know what to do first.  I think this school is one of the best, so i don't want to give up on it just yet.  However, i wil keep looking for other schools like you all suggest, just in case.

Thank you for your help thus far, and if you know of anything further that would help me, i would be so incredibly greatfull.

Val
On Aug 13, 2010, at 1:48 AM, Beth wrote:

> I agree with what Jedi just said, and take this to court.  This goes
> along the same logic as a case involving a guy who wants to be a spine
> doctor/cairopractor.  Sorry, I forgot how to spell the word. lol
> Anyway, the case was involving this guy who wanted to go to med
> school, and they said he couldn't do it because he doesn't meet the
> requirements that included sight.  Jedi's right, so I'd go ahead and
> take this to court or find a more open venue like the response just
> said.
> Beth
> 
> On 8/12/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> Val,
>> 
>> That sounds not too different from logic sighted O and M professionals
>> use to explain why blind people shouldn't be cane travel instructors.
>> but instead of aggressive dogs, the dangers in question are traffic and
>> obstacles.
>> 
>> In fact, that's the same kind of logic sighted people (and some blind
>> people, too) use: a blind person can't do X because one has to be able
>> to see Y. There are really a small number of activities where that's
>> honestly the case, and that number is getting smaller and smaller with
>> advances in training, technology, and attitude development.
>> 
>> Well, here's some news for everyone. There are blind cane travel
>> instructors and blind
>> all-kinds-of-professionals-we've-never-imagined-until-nows.. In other
>> words, your lack of sight isn't your limitation, their lack of insight
>> is. Just because they've never witnessed a blind dog trainer, that
>> doesn't mean it hasn't been, or can't be, done. What about those who
>> train their own pets? What about those who train their own guide dogs?
>> What about blind people who've managed aggressive dog situations
>> before? It's not like aggressive dogs are terribly stealthy or anything.
>> 
>> So in other words, you should fight this even if it means cutting your
>> losses with this school and choosing another more open-minded venue.
>> 
>> Good luck.
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>> 
>> Original message:
>>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll start by
>>> giving a brief intro.
>> 
>>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a dog
>>> trainer The school is based on California, but students can work from
>>> home with the aid of a teacher and people in the area.  I guess it's
>>> like a distance learning program.  I would not know however as they
>>> will not send me imformation or allow me to enroll inthe program as
>>> they said i do not meet their physical requirements.  That is, i do not
>>> have a vusual equity of 150 feet.
>> 
>>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this requirement
>>> would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>>> Valerie,
>>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set by the
>>> state of California to keep you safe while you are in the program. You
>>> would be training dogs in group sessions or in a clients home and it
>>> would be imperative that you be able to see dogs approaching you that
>>> may be aggressive or confrontational.
>>> Regards,
>>> Deborah
>> 
>>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if i should
>>> just call it a loss, please let me know.
>> 
>>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>> 
>>> Val
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>> 
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com



From trillian551 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 09:55:26 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 05:55:26 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
In-Reply-To: <003901cb3a3d$73d276e0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com>
	<00a201cb3a31$60211360$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<BAY130-DS147F88B94B90CB4EEC7F6D8B970@phx.gbl>
	<003901cb3a3d$73d276e0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik0EzYQ7Uh_ZR5oGk5bTEgKsGro-KP_7+QyMdDN@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Peter,
I'm not sure if this is an option for you but if you have a facebook,
you can log in to vote that way.
Best
Mary F

On 8/12/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>     And be sure to include information about texting options in addition to
> cell phone text messages to enable those with difficulty using captchas to
> participate without encountering them. Had this been done in the first place
> this discussion wouldn't be taking place.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>
> We agree that this should be done.  The problem is we do have a contest to
> vote for now so lets get this done and then start to prod companies to
> include accessibility for everyincluding the deff/blind.
> Thanks
> Rob
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:16 AM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>    I use JFW 11 and have a moderate hearing impairment. It's to the point
>> that I keep my PC volume rather loud and view the HD channels when
>> watching
>> T.V. I've used hearing aids but don't get the total sound spectrum. Most
>> listening devices do great at giving you the highs but they stink where
>> reproducing low-frequency sounds are concerned. Many of the audio captchas
>> I've encountered are in the low frequency end and are so garbled that even
>> sighted persons can't understand them let alone someone with any degree of
>> hearing loss.
>>
>>    But again this misses the point. If we're going to engage in
>> fundraising
>> or other activities that require the interaction with an Internet resource
>> more effort needs to be made to ensure that that resource is usable by a
>> large number of us including those with additional disabilities such as
>> hearing loss. If information for texting Pepsi via cell phone and PC had
>> been provided this thread might not have been on this list. ?Any way we're
>> preparing to move in two weeks so I need to concentrate on that. All the
>> best.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Dear listers,
>>  I don't mean to be argumentative or anything.  But, Peter, I'm
>> curious about one thing.  Do you use jaws, or any sort of screen
>> reader?  Because, to me, it would seem that those aren't accessible by
>> the standards you're using to judge captchas.  What's the difference?
>> Respectfully,
>> Kirt Manwaring
>>
>> On 8/10/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>
>>>     Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely
>>> install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>> After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
>>> texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great
>>> success.
>>> When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as
>>> well
>>> as your normal IM user list.
>>> I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap top,
>>> and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This
>>> works
>>> well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Gil Vickery
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>>> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
>>>> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
>>>> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
>>>> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
>>>> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone
>>>> that
>>>> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
>>>> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it with
>>>> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
>>>> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
>>>> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we try
>>>> to change it?  At least there is an audio
>>>> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even
>>>> better,
>>>> I was even able to solve it which is more
>>>> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>>>>cellphone.
>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>>>>><KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>>>>> History
>>>>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive funding
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>>>>> applications
>>>>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>>>>> cell
>>>>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web
>>>>>> site
>>>>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our
>>>>>> votes
>>>>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>>>>> CAPTCHAS
>>>>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web site
>>>>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>nfbcs:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net
>>>
>>>
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>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l:
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-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From trillian551 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 10:17:11 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 06:17:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
In-Reply-To: <BC7CDD5BF7174E1FBE51B6BE8FBEA460@D9P3ZND1>
References: <AANLkTimuFZjOqu=-du-2naOgaqVQxFOGdnUNxiy9F9kB@mail.gmail.com>
	<BC7CDD5BF7174E1FBE51B6BE8FBEA460@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=8yEHn5nXQCp25ucuo7aicGHkbj-6w-0BTFtOS@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,
I have for the majority of the time used the normal facebook site. I
recently changed to firefox and am using Jaws 9. I really find the
page not that difficult to navigate. For example, if I am putting in
my status that I'm going somewhere with someone, you just type in that
person's name and facebook will put in the link for you. To navigate
through your friends' status the page is divided into headings. With
I.e. there are short cuts using the alt key and assigned numbers to
get to your home, friends, profile, and so on. To chat with firefox
and i.e. you simply click on the chat button on the top of the page
and a list of your available friends will show at the bottom
immediately. You simply click on their name and chat away. i do like
chatting on i.e. better though. Overall, I think that facebook has
done an effort to become accessible, it's not perfect but it's
definitely not unusuable in other than the mobile site. The mobile
site is very bare and basic and so looking at hte normal site at first
might be overwhelming but I promise that if you sit down and really
familiarize yourself with it it'll become more doable. For me Jaws
never really lags on facebook, and that might actually be caused by
the browser or particular computer.
Hope that helps a little.
Mary F

On 8/12/10, Anjelina <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Mika:
> I have had more success with the mobile site also, and was wondering how to
> link friends names and places in status updates using JAWS. I used to rely
> on the text message option but now when replying to a text a message is sent
> to the users inbox rather than commenting on the status.
> I've found the iPhone facebook app crashes a lot so I primarily use
> TwitBook.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mika Pyyhkala" <pyyhkala at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 4:41 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessibility and Usability of the Main Facebook Site
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have been using Facebook through the mobile interface:
>> http://m.facebook.com
>> about 95% of the time, but, I am finding certain functions cannot be
>> done in that stripped down interface.
>>
>> I'm just wondering what experiences people have had with the main site?
>>
>> As an example, I'd like to be able to update my status, and in the
>> same status message, include an external link and other peoples
>> Facebook profile.
>>
>> There is now a feature, similar in concept to Twitter at replies,
>> where you can essentially refer to another persons Facebook profile in
>> your own status update or post.
>>
>> So Jaws might read something like:
>> "I'm going to the
>> link Boston Common
>> with
>> link Jane Smith"
>>
>> I'm just wondering if anyone has gotten this to work.  On the pc right
>> here I have Firefox and IE6, but maybe it works better with IE8?  Also
>> latest Jas version, and access to a Mac.
>>
>> There are also serious accessibility flaws with the Facebook iPhone
>> app that have been confirmed by others.  Although, certain things do
>> work such as the chat to some extent.
>>
>> The lack of Facebook accessibility should become a higher priority,
>> but I just want to get some other experiences before further bringing
>> this up with in our leadership.
>>
>> Best,
>> Mika Pyyhkala
>> MA state President & national board member
>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Fri Aug 13 12:19:02 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:19:02 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness Blog Reminder--Employment
Message-ID: <B8D7981E2A8148D987BE5E6EBAD1748F@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Hello to all,

Last week, the Blindness Blog discussed shopping.  This week, I present some barriers for employment that result from blindness, and I share some possible sollutions, though they may not be acceptable sollutions to all of us.  Enjoy, and don't forget to check back each week.  Also, feel free to comment on the blog.
www.blindnessblog.blogspot.com

Remember, Jesus Loves You.
Anita Adkins
81 E. Mechanic ST
APT 207
Frostburg, MD 21532
p: 301-689-5212
c: 301-876-8669
aadkins7 at verizon.net

From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 12:57:49 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 08:57:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100813052827.20591.99766@web2>
Message-ID: <6BDDD8A5C739415D98524E18B1D666D4@Espy>

Hi there. I would write them back and explain that you'd be able to hear 
dogs approaching. You're going to be able to hear their toe nails clicking 
on the ground. Also I'd go with a different program. I'm not sure where you 
live, but talk to a local guide dog school if there is one in your area.
Hope and Beignet
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:28 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


> Val,
>
> That sounds not too different from logic sighted O and M professionals use 
> to explain why blind people shouldn't be cane travel instructors. but 
> instead of aggressive dogs, the dangers in question are traffic and 
> obstacles.
>
> In fact, that's the same kind of logic sighted people (and some blind 
> people, too) use: a blind person can't do X because one has to be able to 
> see Y. There are really a small number of activities where that's honestly 
> the case, and that number is getting smaller and smaller with advances in 
> training, technology, and attitude development.
>
> Well, here's some news for everyone. There are blind cane travel 
> instructors and blind 
> all-kinds-of-professionals-we've-never-imagined-until-nows.. In other 
> words, your lack of sight isn't your limitation, their lack of insight is. 
> Just because they've never witnessed a blind dog trainer, that doesn't 
> mean it hasn't been, or can't be, done. What about those who train their 
> own pets? What about those who train their own guide dogs? What about 
> blind people who've managed aggressive dog situations before? It's not 
> like aggressive dogs are terribly stealthy or anything.
>
> So in other words, you should fight this even if it means cutting your 
> losses with this school and choosing another more open-minded venue.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll start by 
>> giving a brief intro.
>
>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a dog 
>> trainer The school is based on California, but students can work from 
>> home with the aid of a teacher and people in the area.  I guess it's like 
>> a distance learning program.  I would not know however as they will not 
>> send me imformation or allow me to enroll inthe program as they said i do 
>> not meet their physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual 
>> equity of 150 feet.
>
>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this requirement would 
>> be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>> Valerie,
>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical 
>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set by the 
>> state of California to keep you safe while you are in the program. You 
>> would be training dogs in group sessions or in a clients home and it 
>> would be imperative that you be able to see dogs approaching you that may 
>> be aggressive or confrontational.
>> Regards,
>> Deborah
>
>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if i should 
>> just call it a loss, please let me know.
>
>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>
>> Val
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 5364 (20100813) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5364 (20100813) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com





From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 13:02:41 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:02:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>

Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought they
were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind instructors on
their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going with the
ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come out of
that organization.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll 
start by giving a brief intro.

I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a 
dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can 
work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the 
area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would 
not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow 
me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their 
physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity 
of 150 feet.

I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this 
requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
Valerie,
Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical 
requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set 
by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in 
the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in 
a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to 
see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
Regards,
Deborah

If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if 
i should just call it a loss, please let me know.

Thank you so much for your responces to my last email. 
Look forward to hearing from you.

Val
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 14:13:14 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:13:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>

I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
do so would mean that they win and that blind people will continue to
be left out of their program and they will continue to have
discriminatory practices.

Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual impairment
is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest contacting
NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to the blind and
have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.

I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
misconceptions of the worst kind.

~Jewel

On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought they
> were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind instructors on
> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going with the
> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come out of
> that organization.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
> start by giving a brief intro.
>
> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
> of 150 feet.
>
> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
> Valerie,
> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
> Regards,
> Deborah
>
> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>
> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
> Look forward to hearing from you.
>
> Val
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From agrima at nbp.org  Fri Aug 13 14:20:51 2010
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 10:20:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Author Wendy David on CRIS Radio's The Beacon this Sunday
Message-ID: <D4E81F29C86342F499E95B210BD9925F@nbp2.local>

Hello - here's an announcement from National Braille Press about one of
our authors.
-Tony Grima, NBP

Wendy David, author of "Sites Unseen: Traveling the World Without
Sight," will be featured on Chicago Lighthouse's radio show "The Beacon"
this weekend. Wendy will discuss her book and the world of travel.

"The Beacon" airs Sunday, August 15 at 4pm Central Time on CRIS Radio.
To stream, go to: 
www.chicagosprogressivetalk.com

or download from the Chicago Lighthouse after air-date at:
www.chicagolighthouse.org

"Every time I leave on another trip," says David, "blind friends and
acquaintances pepper me with questions: 'How do you get around countries
with no public transportation? How do you deal with different types and
sizes of currency? How do you travel overseas with a guide dog? Who
describes the unique sights to you?'"

In "Sites Unseen," David helps you decide where to go, when to go, how
best to get there, how to find accessible travel websites and social
networks; gives tips for navigating busy airports, sleeping overnight on
trains, enjoying today's more comfortable bus lines, selecting a
theme-based cruise, using accessible GPS, and more. "There are so many
resources out there," says David. "People just don't know about them."

With this book, you can travel the world with confidence.

Available in braille, eBraille, accessible PDF, and DAISY
(text-to-speech audio).

Note: The PDF version of this book is fully accessible and
hyperlink-enabled. This is our "green" alternative to offering a print
version of the book. You can purchase this and print it out, or read it
on your computer. 

You can order "Sites Unseen" (for $19.95) from National Braille Press
at:
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/TRAVEL.html


******
To order any books, send payment to:
NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 
20. Or order any of our books online at 
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html .




From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 15:10:07 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 09:10:07 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a blind O and M instructor here at CCB, and she's the best.
This goes to show that blind O and M instructors don't have to see.  I
have to do things differently with this lady, but she's really cool.
I like her a lot.
Beth

On 8/13/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
> do so would mean that they win and that blind people will continue to
> be left out of their program and they will continue to have
> discriminatory practices.
>
> Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
> discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual impairment
> is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
> discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest contacting
> NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
> school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
> to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
> to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to the blind and
> have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
> using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
> be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.
>
> I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
> argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
> obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
> misconceptions of the worst kind.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought
>> they
>> were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind instructors
>> on
>> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going with
>> the
>> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
>> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come out
>> of
>> that organization.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>
>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
>> start by giving a brief intro.
>>
>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
>> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
>> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
>> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
>> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
>> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
>> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
>> of 150 feet.
>>
>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
>> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>> Valerie,
>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
>> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
>> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
>> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
>> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
>> Regards,
>> Deborah
>>
>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
>> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>>
>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>>
>> Val
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Fri Aug 13 16:15:40 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 11:15:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
References: <004101cb38f8$518a3cd0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><AANLkTimMcCe5yFxD_opf+ABdg8=Z4+naSFjH524zTywK@mail.gmail.com><00a201cb3a31$60211360$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn><BAY130-DS147F88B94B90CB4EEC7F6D8B970@phx.gbl><003901cb3a3d$73d276e0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<AANLkTik0EzYQ7Uh_ZR5oGk5bTEgKsGro-KP_7+QyMdDN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ea01cb3b02$c6d01490$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Mary and everyone,

    If it involves a captcha at any stage of use we don't use it on 
principle. Facebook and company require the use of a captcha in the signup 
process so no thanks! And please spare me any more glories of audio captchas 
as I have a hearing impairment and have found them more trouble than 
helpful. Had information about other email texting options for submitting 
votes been given before this thing began I wouldn't be writing this message. 
Since our move is just over two weeks away we don't want to persue this any 
more.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications


Hey Peter,
I'm not sure if this is an option for you but if you have a facebook,
you can log in to vote that way.
Best
Mary F

On 8/12/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
>     And be sure to include information about texting options in addition 
> to
> cell phone text messages to enable those with difficulty using captchas to
> participate without encountering them. Had this been done in the first 
> place
> this discussion wouldn't be taking place.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>
>
>
> We agree that this should be done.  The problem is we do have a contest to
> vote for now so lets get this done and then start to prod companies to
> include accessibility for everyincluding the deff/blind.
> Thanks
> Rob
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:16 AM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>    I use JFW 11 and have a moderate hearing impairment. It's to the point
>> that I keep my PC volume rather loud and view the HD channels when
>> watching
>> T.V. I've used hearing aids but don't get the total sound spectrum. Most
>> listening devices do great at giving you the highs but they stink where
>> reproducing low-frequency sounds are concerned. Many of the audio 
>> captchas
>> I've encountered are in the low frequency end and are so garbled that 
>> even
>> sighted persons can't understand them let alone someone with any degree 
>> of
>> hearing loss.
>>
>>    But again this misses the point. If we're going to engage in
>> fundraising
>> or other activities that require the interaction with an Internet 
>> resource
>> more effort needs to be made to ensure that that resource is usable by a
>> large number of us including those with additional disabilities such as
>> hearing loss. If information for texting Pepsi via cell phone and PC had
>> been provided this thread might not have been on this list. ?Any way 
>> we're
>> preparing to move in two weeks so I need to concentrate on that. All the
>> best.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 10:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Fw: Desktop Texting Applications
>>
>>
>> Dear listers,
>>  I don't mean to be argumentative or anything.  But, Peter, I'm
>> curious about one thing.  Do you use jaws, or any sort of screen
>> reader?  Because, to me, it would seem that those aren't accessible by
>> the standards you're using to judge captchas.  What's the difference?
>> Respectfully,
>> Kirt Manwaring
>>
>> On 8/10/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hello again everyone,
>>>
>>>     Just wanted to pass this on if anyone is using AIM. I'll most likely
>>> install AIM on our computers after we move in a few weeks.
>>>
>>> Peter Donahue
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Guilbert Vickery" <citizen at ncia.net>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>> After reading all the posts I want to say I've been using AIM both for
>>> texting mobile, and regular IM for about two years now with great
>>> success.
>>> When you set it up for mobile text one can have a mobile buddy list as
>>> well
>>> as your normal IM user list.
>>> I hope I'm providing a resource, but now I find with my wireless lap 
>>> top,
>>> and AIM I feel I have a pretty mobile access to text messaging.  This
>>> works
>>> well with AIM 7, and scripts with JAWS.
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>> Gil Vickery
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "NFB in Computer Science Mailing List" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 7:12 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>
>>>
>>>> Some phone companies allow texting from the computer if you have an
>>>> account from them.  Sprint, for example, has a
>>>> place on their web site where you can send a text message.  This is of
>>>> course not relevant if you have a phone that you
>>>> can use for texting, but it could be an option if one has a cellphone
>>>> that
>>>> is not accessible.  There may be charges,
>>>> though, if one is not on an unlimited plan, and I have not tried it 
>>>> with
>>>> the shorter numbers such as this one.
>>>>
>>>> Frankly, I don't like CAPTCHAs, either, but to say that using them is
>>>> endorsing them is a bit of a stretch in my mind.
>>>> Where is the idea that we must live in the world as it is even as we 
>>>> try
>>>> to change it?  At least there is an audio
>>>> CAPTCHA alternative which makes this sight better than some.  Even
>>>> better,
>>>> I was even able to solve it which is more
>>>> than I can say for the GMail CAPTCHA.  <smile>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 9 Aug 2010 19:40:06 -0700, Mike Freeman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I know of no PC apps that will simulate a SMS text message utility on a
>>>>>cellphone.
>>>>
>>>>>Mike
>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Gary Wunder" <gwunder at earthlink.net>
>>>>>To: "'NFB in Computer Science Mailing List'" <nfbcs at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>Cc: "Marc Maurer" <officeofthepresident at nfb.org>; "Karen Zakhnini,"
>>>>><KZakhnini at NFB.ORG>; "Mark Riccobono" <MRiccobono at NFB.ORG>
>>>>>Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:18 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Pete, I note that you sent your concern to our lists but not directly
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> folks who may have some sway here - Dr. Maurer, Mark Riccobono, and
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> directly involved. Since I am sure this was an oversight and that you
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> Mary want something good to come from this, I will copy them here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warmly,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. Have you set your hand to writing something about the Living
>>>>>> History
>>>>>> meeting for me? I think it would be most helpful for the Monitor and
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> intrigued personally by what the group is attempting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nfbcs-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Peter Donahue
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 2:27 PM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Cc: nfb-web at nfbnet.org; Mary Donahue; NFBnet NFBCS Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: [nfbcs] Desktop Texting Applications
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    We wish to cast our votes for the NFB Youth SLAM to receive 
>>>>>> funding
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> Pepsi but not if we must deal with CAPTCHAS thank you. Since we don't
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> talking cell phones we're curious to know if there are desktop
>>>>>> applications
>>>>>> that allow one to send text messages as if they were doing it from a
>>>>>> cell
>>>>>> phone and how usable are they by the blind?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    We want to participate but not if we're forced to deal with Web
>>>>>> site
>>>>>> security methods that lock us out. If there's a way tos submit our
>>>>>> votes
>>>>>> from our desktops as text messages freeing us from dealing with any
>>>>>> CAPTCHAS
>>>>>> for any part of the process that would be wonderful. We want to see
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Youth SLAM funded but not at the expense of stances regarding Web 
>>>>>> site
>>>>>> accessibility taking a back seat when money is up for grabs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter and Mary Donahue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/gwunder%40earthlink.n
>>>>>> et
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nfbcs:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/k7uij%40panix.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>nfbcs mailing list
>>>>>nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>nfbcs:
>>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nfbcs:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/citizen%40ncia.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nfbcs mailing list
>>> nfbcs at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbcs_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nfbcs:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nfbcs_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
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From jty727 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 18:24:55 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:24:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Val annd all!
I agree to fight this.  I also agree with contacting the NFB
Headquarters.  I think they and the Department of Justice will show
the school you are having problems with just what equality is.  If you
want to be a dog trainer Val I say nothing should stop you from
accomplishing that goal.

Justin

On 8/13/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a blind O and M instructor here at CCB, and she's the best.
> This goes to show that blind O and M instructors don't have to see.  I
> have to do things differently with this lady, but she's really cool.
> I like her a lot.
> Beth
>
> On 8/13/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
>> do so would mean that they win and that blind people will continue to
>> be left out of their program and they will continue to have
>> discriminatory practices.
>>
>> Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
>> discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual impairment
>> is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
>> discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest contacting
>> NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
>> school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
>> to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
>> to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to the blind and
>> have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
>> using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
>> be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.
>>
>> I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
>> argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
>> obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
>> misconceptions of the worst kind.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought
>>> they
>>> were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind instructors
>>> on
>>> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going with
>>> the
>>> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
>>> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come out
>>> of
>>> that organization.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>
>>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
>>> start by giving a brief intro.
>>>
>>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
>>> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
>>> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
>>> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
>>> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
>>> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
>>> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
>>> of 150 feet.
>>>
>>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
>>> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>>> Valerie,
>>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
>>> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
>>> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
>>> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
>>> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
>>> Regards,
>>> Deborah
>>>
>>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
>>> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>>>
>>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>>>
>>> Val
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 18:27:14 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:27:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim2cSQU_=BxCdVzvMxzfUiJuGQxDW1JWUUvVKg5@mail.gmail.com>

Hi:

I have to agree with what everyone has said.
Definitely fight this no matter what...if you do, you'll make it
better for the next blind person who wants to become a trainer with
this school!

I would not however contact the ACB. Like someone else said, the NFB
is dedicated to fighting discrimination. We are much bigger, and in my
opinion much much better than the ACB is! I hope I don't get into any
trouble for saying this, but honestly to me...all the ACB does is sit
around, and talk about what needs to be done and doesn't take much
action when it comes down to it!
I would try contacting the NFB national office. You can call them at
410-659-9315. Also, I would contact the President of the NFB's Dog
Guide Division. It's called NAGDU, the National Association Dog Guide
Users!

Good luck, and keep up the good fight!

Kerri

On 8/13/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a blind O and M instructor here at CCB, and she's the best.
> This goes to show that blind O and M instructors don't have to see.  I
> have to do things differently with this lady, but she's really cool.
> I like her a lot.
> Beth
>
> On 8/13/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
>> do so would mean that they win and that blind people will continue to
>> be left out of their program and they will continue to have
>> discriminatory practices.
>>
>> Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
>> discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual impairment
>> is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
>> discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest contacting
>> NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
>> school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
>> to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
>> to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to the blind and
>> have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
>> using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
>> be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.
>>
>> I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
>> argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
>> obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
>> misconceptions of the worst kind.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought
>>> they
>>> were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind instructors
>>> on
>>> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going with
>>> the
>>> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
>>> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come out
>>> of
>>> that organization.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>
>>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
>>> start by giving a brief intro.
>>>
>>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
>>> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
>>> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
>>> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
>>> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
>>> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
>>> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
>>> of 150 feet.
>>>
>>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
>>> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>>> Valerie,
>>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
>>> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
>>> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
>>> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
>>> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
>>> Regards,
>>> Deborah
>>>
>>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
>>> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>>>
>>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>>>
>>> Val
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From valandkayla at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 20:02:23 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:02:23 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim2cSQU_=BxCdVzvMxzfUiJuGQxDW1JWUUvVKg5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim2cSQU_=BxCdVzvMxzfUiJuGQxDW1JWUUvVKg5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <609B3871-33BB-400C-98A0-B731E1A3F3F0@gmail.com>

After spending most of day researching both schools that offer dog training, i've decided to go with the first school because i believe it offers more thanmost.  

However, this is the school that denied me due to blindness.  I've decided to contact thenational headquarters of the NFB for further steps  i can take to ensure my entrance into the school, as well as guide dogs for the Blind to see how their trainers, assuming they are blind, to see what their techniques are so that i may apply them to the course.

I will keep you all updated on the progress.

I do have one final question: who would i need to speak to at the national headquarters, or what department?

Thank you all for your support and advice.
On Aug 13, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi:
> 
> I have to agree with what everyone has said.
> Definitely fight this no matter what...if you do, you'll make it
> better for the next blind person who wants to become a trainer with
> this school!
> 
> I would not however contact the ACB. Like someone else said, the NFB
> is dedicated to fighting discrimination. We are much bigger, and in my
> opinion much much better than the ACB is! I hope I don't get into any
> trouble for saying this, but honestly to me...all the ACB does is sit
> around, and talk about what needs to be done and doesn't take much
> action when it comes down to it!
> I would try contacting the NFB national office. You can call them at
> 410-659-9315. Also, I would contact the President of the NFB's Dog
> Guide Division. It's called NAGDU, the National Association Dog Guide
> Users!
> 
> Good luck, and keep up the good fight!
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 8/13/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a blind O and M instructor here at CCB, and she's the best.
>> This goes to show that blind O and M instructors don't have to see.  I
>> have to do things differently with this lady, but she's really cool.
>> I like her a lot.
>> Beth
>> 
>> On 8/13/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
>>> do so would mean that they win and that blind people will continue to
>>> be left out of their program and they will continue to have
>>> discriminatory practices.
>>> 
>>> Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
>>> discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual impairment
>>> is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
>>> discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest contacting
>>> NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
>>> school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
>>> to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
>>> to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to the blind and
>>> have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
>>> using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
>>> be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.
>>> 
>>> I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
>>> argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
>>> obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
>>> misconceptions of the worst kind.
>>> 
>>> ~Jewel
>>> 
>>> On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought
>>>> they
>>>> were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind instructors
>>>> on
>>>> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going with
>>>> the
>>>> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
>>>> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come out
>>>> of
>>>> that organization.
>>>> 
>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>> 
>>>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
>>>> start by giving a brief intro.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
>>>> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
>>>> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
>>>> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
>>>> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
>>>> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
>>>> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
>>>> of 150 feet.
>>>> 
>>>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
>>>> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>>>> Valerie,
>>>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>>>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
>>>> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
>>>> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
>>>> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
>>>> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Deborah
>>>> 
>>>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
>>>> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>>>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>>>> 
>>>> Val
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 20:23:19 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:23:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <609B3871-33BB-400C-98A0-B731E1A3F3F0@gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com><3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus><AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTim2cSQU_=BxCdVzvMxzfUiJuGQxDW1JWUUvVKg5@mail.gmail.com>
	<609B3871-33BB-400C-98A0-B731E1A3F3F0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00DEB9C52CD3402A98AF6966E7D4C14E@Rufus>

Call the National Center and ask for Joanne Wilson.  She's not going to be
the best direct resource for this issue, but she's going to know a lot of
people you can follow up with either at the National Center or in
California.  She's a no bs lady who should give you excellent help.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 4:02 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

After spending most of day researching both schools that offer 
dog training, i've decided to go with the first school because 
i believe it offers more thanmost.  

However, this is the school that denied me due to blindness.  
I've decided to contact thenational headquarters of the NFB for 
further steps  i can take to ensure my entrance into the 
school, as well as guide dogs for the Blind to see how their 
trainers, assuming they are blind, to see what their techniques 
are so that i may apply them to the course.

I will keep you all updated on the progress.

I do have one final question: who would i need to speak to at 
the national headquarters, or what department?

Thank you all for your support and advice.
On Aug 13, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi:
> 
> I have to agree with what everyone has said.
> Definitely fight this no matter what...if you do, you'll make it
> better for the next blind person who wants to become a trainer with
> this school!
> 
> I would not however contact the ACB. Like someone else said, the NFB
> is dedicated to fighting discrimination. We are much bigger, and in my
> opinion much much better than the ACB is! I hope I don't get into any
> trouble for saying this, but honestly to me...all the ACB does is sit
> around, and talk about what needs to be done and doesn't take much
> action when it comes down to it!
> I would try contacting the NFB national office. You can call them at
> 410-659-9315. Also, I would contact the President of the NFB's Dog
> Guide Division. It's called NAGDU, the National Association Dog Guide
> Users!
> 
> Good luck, and keep up the good fight!
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 8/13/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a blind O and M instructor here at CCB, and she's the best.
>> This goes to show that blind O and M instructors don't have 
to see.  I
>> have to do things differently with this lady, but she's really cool.
>> I like her a lot.
>> Beth
>> 
>> On 8/13/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
>>> do so would mean that they win and that blind people will 
continue to
>>> be left out of their program and they will continue to have
>>> discriminatory practices.
>>> 
>>> Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
>>> discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual 
impairment
>>> is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
>>> discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest 
contacting
>>> NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
>>> school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
>>> to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
>>> to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to 
the blind and
>>> have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
>>> using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
>>> be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.
>>> 
>>> I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
>>> argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
>>> obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
>>> misconceptions of the worst kind.
>>> 
>>> ~Jewel
>>> 
>>> On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the 
Blind?  I thought
>>>> they
>>>> were among one of the first schools to experiment with 
blind instructors
>>>> on
>>>> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I 
think going with
>>>> the
>>>> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't 
like directly
>>>> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good 
things come out
>>>> of
>>>> that organization.
>>>> 
>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at 
all."--Sam Ewing
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>> 
>>>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
>>>> start by giving a brief intro.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
>>>> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
>>>> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
>>>> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
>>>> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
>>>> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
>>>> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
>>>> of 150 feet.
>>>> 
>>>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
>>>> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>>>> Valerie,
>>>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>>>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
>>>> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
>>>> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
>>>> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
>>>> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Deborah
>>>> 
>>>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
>>>> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>>>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>>>> 
>>>> Val
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
ykat2%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theblues
isloose%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik20
06%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
yla%40gmail.com


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 13 21:11:39 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 14:11:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Sept. 1 deadline - $50call for blogs on int'l
	experiences
Message-ID: <85899.98562.qm@web53804.mail.re2.yahoo.com>





> From: Michele Scheib <mscheib at MIUSA.ORG>
> Subject: Sept. 1 deadline - $50call for blogs on int'l experiences
> To: NDSU at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU
> Date: Friday, August 13, 2010, 11:56 AM
> **Accessibility information at
> bottom**
> 
> People with disabilities are invited to send in personal
> blogs about
> participation in international exchange programs by
> September 1, 2010.
> Please share this paid opportunity with people with
> disabilities currently
> residing in the United States (all nationalities welcome).
> 
> Do you keep an international travel blog? Would you like to
> share it with
> other people with disabilities who are interested in going
> abroad? If you
> are a person with a disability and have either studied,
> worked or
> volunteered abroad, the National Clearinghouse on
> Disability and Exchange
> (NCDE) would like to hear from you. Qualifying authors will
> earn $50 and
> their blogs will be posted to NCDE's Stories and Blogs
> page
> (http://www.miusa.org/ncde/stories)! Visit
> <http://www.miusa.org/ncde/ncdenewsevents/storiescall>
> http://www.miusa.org/ncde/ncdenewsevents/storiescall to
> learn whether you
> qualify.
> 
>  
> 
> National Clearinghouse on Disability and Exchange (NCDE)
> 
> Mobility International USA
> 
> 132 E. Broadway, Suite 343
> 
> Eugene, OR 97401
> 
> Tel./TTY (541) 343-1284
> 
> Fax (541) 343-6812
> 
>  <http://www.miusa.org/ncde> www.miusa.org
> 
>  <http://www.facebook.com/mobility.international>
> www.facebook.com/mobility.international
> 
>  <http://www.twitter.com/mobilityINTL>
> www.twitter.com/mobilityINTL
> 
>  
> 
> The National Clearinghouse on Disability and Exchange
> (NCDE) provides free
> information and referral services related to the
> participation of people
> with disabilities in international exchange programs. The
> NCDE is sponsored
> by the Bureau of Educational and Cultural Affairs of the
> U.S. Department of
> State, and is managed by Mobility International USA, which
> is celebrating
> its third decade as a U.S.-based non-profit organization. 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> If you are having trouble accessing this listserv please
> contact Joe Hall at jozhall at gmail.com
> -------------------------------------------------------
> ACCESS IS A CIVIL RIGHT!! Please DO NOT forget to include a
> topic in the subject of every message you send to the NDSU
> listserv.
> 
> NDSU List Topics: CURR, ORG, GOV, DS, and ANN.
> 
> CURR: for current events. Education about current issues.
> ORG: for discussions of organizing. Practical education.
> GOV: Includes legislative, judicial, and executive
> information, organization, and calls to action on government
> issues. Political education.
> DS: for discussions of disability as a political and
> cultural issue. Theoretical education.
> ANN: for any general announcements and housekeeping,
> including discussions concerning accessibility.
> 
> If you would like to change the topics that you are
> currently subscribed to, go to: http://listserv.uic.edu/htbin/wa?LMGT1
> 
> For more information on NDSU visit:
> www.disabledstudents.org
> 


      



From nabs.president at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 22:53:58 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:53:58 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
Message-ID: <AANLkTimwrV-aXy15wCdNRdOg6xeq4Q5KgJAWiAQ5kTHN@mail.gmail.com>

I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
lawsuit appropriate?

Arielle
Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
By bob mims

The Salt Lake Tribune

Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
full of tree — and severe neck injuries.

Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.

The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
sidewalk.

“The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
presence by use of his cane.”

The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”

Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
negligence in the maintenance of the tree.

Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.

Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.

Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
it,” he said.

Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
citing the pending nature of the litigation.


__._,_.___


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Fri Aug 13 23:15:25 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:15:25 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <AANLkTimwrV-aXy15wCdNRdOg6xeq4Q5KgJAWiAQ5kTHN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2FE9169363674B0B97B3AD150E5E1246@radio360usa>

How does a tree knock a six foot five man to the ground anyway?
But really I see the problem here. He simply went to the wrong branch of the 
restaurant.
Now that we've gotten to the root of the matter...
Sorry couldn't resist.
>From David 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 13 23:41:24 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:41:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] more info on dvd burner
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS270A0EB10A25ACA4EDECF8B980@phx.gbl>

the DVD burner I have is
Toshiba PA3761U-1DV2 Portable/Slim USB SuperMulti DVD-Writer
I have it listed in a few places for 46 but am open to $39 or lower if your really need-based.
-Rob Blachowicz

From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Aug 14 01:30:56 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:30:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
Message-ID: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>

The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall 
people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide 
dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss 
those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it 
would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to 
blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident 
and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an 
inconvenience to one/all of us or not.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
> lawsuit appropriate?

> Arielle
> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
> By bob mims

> The Salt Lake Tribune

> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.

> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.

> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
> sidewalk.

> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
> presence by use of his cane.”

> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”

> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.

> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.

> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.

> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
> it,” he said.

> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
> citing the pending nature of the litigation.


> __._,_.___


> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

From jess28 at samobile.net  Sat Aug 14 02:43:48 2010
From: jess28 at samobile.net (Jess sA Mobile)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:43:48 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
Message-ID: <03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>

Hi All,
This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes. 
Jessica

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall 
people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide 
dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss 
those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it 
would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to 
blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident 
and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an 
inconvenience to one/all of us or not.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
> lawsuit appropriate?

> Arielle
> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
> By bob mims

> The Salt Lake Tribune

> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.

> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.

> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
> sidewalk.

> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
> presence by use of his cane.”

> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”

> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.

> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.

> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.

> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
> it,” he said.

> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
> citing the pending nature of the litigation.


> __._,_.___


> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
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www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jess28%40samobile.net



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 01:47:55 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:47:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS125FD66B11AB960019325D8B990@phx.gbl>


I totally agree this guy isn't using proper independence.  Anyone could have 
done what he did and I feel he used b"the blind card" as an excuse.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jess sA Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 10:43 PM
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

> Hi All,
> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but 
> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the 
> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything 
> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would 
> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the 
> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five 
> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
> Jessica
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jedi
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>> Arielle
>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>> By bob mims
>
>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>
>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>> sidewalk.
>
>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>> presence by use of his cane.”
>
>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>
>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>> it,” he said.
>
>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>> __._,_.___
>
>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jess28%40samobile.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Aug 14 01:59:08 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:59:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
Message-ID: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>

Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the 
day. After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree 
was coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his 
hand in front of his face just in case something like this happens 
again? Just a thought.

For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. 
The deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In 
any case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my 
face, I slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the 
object, or hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and 
overhead coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances 
where the branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate 
for the average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear 
dark glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).

Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi All,
> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane 
> but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he 
> knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do 
> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the 
> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the 
> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West 
> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
> Jessica

> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jedi
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.

> Respectfully,
> Jedi

> Original message:
>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>> lawsuit appropriate?

>> Arielle
>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>> By bob mims

>> The Salt Lake Tribune

>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.

>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.

>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>> sidewalk.

>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>> presence by use of his cane.”

>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”

>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.

>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.

>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.

>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>> it,” he said.

>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.


>> __._,_.___


>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Sat Aug 14 02:01:51 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:01:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
Message-ID: <20100813220151.kowh91jtfoocwos8@webmail.utoronto.ca>

It seems unreallistic that someone should have to have their arm out  
all the time in a defensive position. On the other hahand, if the tree  
branch was large enough to knock a grown man over, could it not be  
argued that he shoulda have perceived the tree through object  
perception? Unless he had a hearing impairment? Then again, couldn't  
this tree be a hazard for anyone?
It seems to set a dangerous precedent all round though. There's got to  
be a better way.


Quoting Jess sA Mobile <jess28 at samobile.net>:

> Hi All,
> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his   
> cane but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so   
> that he knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be  
>  able to do anything because especially if the tree roots are going   
> under the sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to  
>  cut up the sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I  
> lived  on the West Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see  
> that  sometimes.
> Jessica
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]   
> On Behalf Of Jedi
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>> Arielle
>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>> By bob mims
>
>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>> full of tree ? and severe neck injuries.
>
>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds ? who had been
>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind ? got off a
>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>> sidewalk.
>
>> ?The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>> ground,? states the suit, filed Tuesday. ?The tree was allowed to grow
>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>> presence by use of his cane.?
>
>> The suit argues that because the tree was ?rooted in the ground far to
>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>> sidewalk,? it had become a ?clear hazard.?
>
>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>> eatery, Reynolds? 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>> discuss the case. ?We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>> it,? he said.
>
>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>> __._,_.___
>
>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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>





From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 02:05:48 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:05:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS81F9304E06D6E6A1FEBBB8B990@phx.gbl>


We preach independence and we live what we preach. He should have had some 
sort of method.
Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 9:59 PM
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the day. 
> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was 
> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand in 
> front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a 
> thought.
>
> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. The 
> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any 
> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I 
> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object, or 
> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead 
> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the 
> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the 
> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark 
> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>
> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Hi All,
>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but 
>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew 
>> the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do 
>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the 
>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the 
>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West 
>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>> Jessica
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Jedi
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>> tree
>
>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>
>> Original message:
>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>>> Arielle
>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>> By bob mims
>
>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>
>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>> sidewalk.
>
>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>
>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>
>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>> it,” he said.
>
>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>>> __._,_.___
>
>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 02:13:34 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:13:34 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
Message-ID: <03A575D8-7D46-482B-90D9-F81266DE3020@gmail.com>

I agree. I think that man should have used the protective fore arm procedure I use everyware. Sure it might look silly but I've saved my face plenty of times.
On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Jedi wrote:

> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
> 
> Original message:
>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>> lawsuit appropriate?
> 
>> Arielle
>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> 
>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>> By bob mims
> 
>> The Salt Lake Tribune
> 
>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
> 
>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
> 
>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>> sidewalk.
> 
>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>> presence by use of his cane.”
> 
>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
> 
>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
> 
>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
> 
>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
> 
>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>> it,” he said.
> 
>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
> 
> 
>> __._,_.___
> 
> 
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
> 
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 02:14:58 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 19:14:58 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
Message-ID: <BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>

I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this would be my right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't have anything in it when using my cane.
On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:

> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the day. After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand in front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a thought.
> 
> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. The deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object, or hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
> 
> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
> 
> Original message:
>> Hi All,
>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>> Jessica
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> 
>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
> 
>> Original message:
>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>> lawsuit appropriate?
> 
>>> Arielle
>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> 
>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>> By bob mims
> 
>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
> 
>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
> 
>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
> 
>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>> sidewalk.
> 
>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>> presence by use of his cane.”
> 
>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
> 
>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
> 
>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
> 
>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
> 
>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>> it,” he said.
> 
>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
> 
> 
>>> __._,_.___
> 
> 
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
> 
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 03:01:04 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:01:04 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
	<BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=KW3pOHgyAE54vAE5L=_TYfxGTeKbvQa1FRnrN@mail.gmail.com>

I totally agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far.
But, allow me to go out on a limb for a second.  (sorry, I'm tired)
The suit doesn't worry me as much as the way the newspaper portrays
it.  I mean...it seems like this reporter's already pretty much just
gone and made the opening arguments for the plaintiff here.  Whatever
happened to balanced journalism?  Seriously though- all this guy's
lawyer has to do is read this article in front of the judge.  No need
to prepare any sort of argument, the reporter's pretty much summarized
(and agreed with) this guy's case.
  I'm sure there's nothing ill-intentioned about it.  The newspaper
writer probably felt quite sympathetic and wanted to help the poor,
hurt blind boy out.  Or- and this is what really scares me- social
atitudes about blind people not being able to travel independently
without getting hurt have influenced this reporter so much that he (or
maybe she, I dunno) perhaps didn't even realize the bias in the story?
 Just a thought.  Let me know if I'm being a bit overdramatic here,
but the atitude which clearly is conveyed in this article worries me
much, much more than a silly law suit ever could.

On 8/13/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this would be my
> right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't have anything in
> it when using my cane.
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the day.
>> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was
>> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand in
>> front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a
>> thought.
>>
>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. The
>> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any
>> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I
>> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object, or
>> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead
>> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the
>> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the
>> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark
>> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>>
>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but
>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew
>>> the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do
>>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the
>>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the
>>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West
>>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>> tree
>>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,” he said.
>>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
>
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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From valandkayla at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 03:03:56 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:03:56 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
	<BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C0C96E7-6968-470B-973A-5EB2C7079F46@gmail.com>

I do not think that the guy should keep his hand up all day. that would look a bit silly to me, and isn't the goal to fit into the sighted world?

His cane could have easily missed the tree; that's understandible, but think about it from a scientific point of view.  Can you imagine how fast the man must have been w walking to have a  tree knock him down?

And why hadn't the man noticed the tree before? was this a new place? if so, why was he walking so fast?
On Aug 13, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this would be my right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't have anything in it when using my cane.
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
> 
>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the day. After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand in front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a thought.
>> 
>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. The deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object, or hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>> 
>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>> 
>> Original message:
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>> 
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>> 
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>> 
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>> 
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>> 
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>> 
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>> 
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>> 
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>> 
>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>> 
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>> 
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>> 
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>> 
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>> 
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,” he said.
>> 
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>> 
>> 
>>>> __._,_.___
>> 
>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>> 
>> -- 
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com



From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sat Aug 14 03:27:13 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:27:13 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
Message-ID: <001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Jessica,
Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your face 
to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you must 
look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.

Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning 
hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions the 
party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the injuries. 
The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this 
particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The 
responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the 
building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer 
representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is 
responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all 
possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed 
against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.  If 
the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the 
building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge says 
that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include the 
city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of law 
is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in 
England, Canada and the U.S.
Best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jess sA Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> Hi All,
> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but 
> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the 
> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything 
> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would 
> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the 
> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five 
> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
> Jessica
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jedi
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>> Arielle
>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>> By bob mims
>
>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>
>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>> sidewalk.
>
>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>> presence by use of his cane.”
>
>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>
>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>> it,” he said.
>
>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>> __._,_.___
>
>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> nabs-l:
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>
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 



From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 03:30:51 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:30:51 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
	<001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>

Dennis,
  But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
pedestrian?
  With respect,
Kirt

On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello Jessica,
> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your face
> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you must
> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>
> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning
> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions the
> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the injuries.
> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed
> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.  If
> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge says
> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include the
> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of law
> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
> England, Canada and the U.S.
> Best,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jess sA Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
>> Hi All,
>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but
>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the
>>
>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would
>>
>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the
>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five
>>
>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>> Jessica
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Jedi
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>> Arielle
>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>> By bob mims
>>
>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>
>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>
>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>> it,” he said.
>>
>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jess28%40samobile.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From trillian551 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 03:34:10 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:34:10 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <3C0C96E7-6968-470B-973A-5EB2C7079F46@gmail.com>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
	<BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
	<3C0C96E7-6968-470B-973A-5EB2C7079F46@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinK80YBHBBFzfSmehVjNHQoEoCP40JBm0n73CKP@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,
I think that Kurt has a valid point. Think about it from a non-biased
point of view. A man is walking and gets knocked down by a tree. For
those of you who live in areas where it snows heavily in the winter,
or even in the tri-state where the snow isn't so heavy, how many law
suits occur every year because someone slips on ice? Someone who is
sighted. What if it had been a tall gentleman jabbering on his cell,
looks away, in some manner misses the huge branch coming up, and gets
knocked down? Would it be such an issue then? I totally understand the
independence issue here, and the message it sends to the sighted. But
to me this story isn't so much about the law suit, because lets face
it Americans are eager to file a suit whenever the occasion arises.
It's more of how the blind have to think and rethink every action. If
it had been any other case, equally as bizzarre,  it would have
gotten some coverage but it wouldn't even be controversial. The
reporter wouldn't have taken the pitying  and somewhat enabling tone
in his article. To me, it's double standards. If someone slips in snow
and they are blind, is it because they aren't using their canes
properly or is it because it is bound to happen to anyone. When they
sue, is it going to come up that they should have been using better
mobility skills, or perhaps that because of their blindness snow and
ice is even more of a hazard?
Just some thoughts.
Mary

P.S. Gosh, this makes me so thankful I'm 5 ft 2! All I ever run into
is over grown bushes!

On 8/13/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not think that the guy should keep his hand up all day. that would look
> a bit silly to me, and isn't the goal to fit into the sighted world?
>
> His cane could have easily missed the tree; that's understandible, but think
> about it from a scientific point of view.  Can you imagine how fast the man
> must have been w walking to have a  tree knock him down?
>
> And why hadn't the man noticed the tree before? was this a new place? if so,
> why was he walking so fast?
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>
>> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this would be my
>> right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't have anything
>> in it when using my cane.
>> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>
>>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the day.
>>> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was
>>> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand in
>>> front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a
>>> thought.
>>>
>>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. The
>>> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any
>>> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I
>>> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object, or
>>> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead
>>> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the
>>> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the
>>> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark
>>> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>>>
>>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane
>>>> but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he
>>>> knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do
>>>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the
>>>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the
>>>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West
>>>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>>> Jessica
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>> tree
>>>
>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>
>>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>>> By bob mims
>>>
>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>
>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>>
>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>
>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>> sidewalk.
>>>
>>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>>
>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>>
>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>
>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>
>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>
>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>> it,” he said.
>>>
>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> __._,_.___
>>>
>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>


-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 04:14:40 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:14:40 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinK80YBHBBFzfSmehVjNHQoEoCP40JBm0n73CKP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
	<BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
	<3C0C96E7-6968-470B-973A-5EB2C7079F46@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinK80YBHBBFzfSmehVjNHQoEoCP40JBm0n73CKP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinMKU4hM5CQMMZZREGYZ1Eq42PL7t_6TZLvE7Zv@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Listers,
  I'm sorry for all the posts.  But I have just a bit more to say.
  Think about what average Joe sighted guy's reaction will be when he
reads this article.  He probably hasn't thought much about blindness
before (let's assume he's never met a blind person), accept maybe he's
been curious and wondered how we do certain every-day things.  So, he
reads this article.  What's he gonna think.  Wil he think, at any
point here, "maybe blindness isn't as much of a handicap as I
assumed?"  And, if he meets another blind person, won't his first
thought be about that sad story where some poor, totally blameless
blind person, who was oh so marvelous because he could get around on a
bus, got hurt by a tree?  It's kinda sad because this happens a lot to
sighted people.  But, the message it sends about blindness, that blind
people can't avoid these sorts of things, gets to me more than
anything else about this business.
  Sincerely (and I won't write anything else tonight, promise!) :),
Kirt

On 8/13/10, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All,
> I think that Kurt has a valid point. Think about it from a non-biased
> point of view. A man is walking and gets knocked down by a tree. For
> those of you who live in areas where it snows heavily in the winter,
> or even in the tri-state where the snow isn't so heavy, how many law
> suits occur every year because someone slips on ice? Someone who is
> sighted. What if it had been a tall gentleman jabbering on his cell,
> looks away, in some manner misses the huge branch coming up, and gets
> knocked down? Would it be such an issue then? I totally understand the
> independence issue here, and the message it sends to the sighted. But
> to me this story isn't so much about the law suit, because lets face
> it Americans are eager to file a suit whenever the occasion arises.
> It's more of how the blind have to think and rethink every action. If
> it had been any other case, equally as bizzarre,  it would have
> gotten some coverage but it wouldn't even be controversial. The
> reporter wouldn't have taken the pitying  and somewhat enabling tone
> in his article. To me, it's double standards. If someone slips in snow
> and they are blind, is it because they aren't using their canes
> properly or is it because it is bound to happen to anyone. When they
> sue, is it going to come up that they should have been using better
> mobility skills, or perhaps that because of their blindness snow and
> ice is even more of a hazard?
> Just some thoughts.
> Mary
>
> P.S. Gosh, this makes me so thankful I'm 5 ft 2! All I ever run into
> is over grown bushes!
>
> On 8/13/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I do not think that the guy should keep his hand up all day. that would
>> look
>> a bit silly to me, and isn't the goal to fit into the sighted world?
>>
>> His cane could have easily missed the tree; that's understandible, but
>> think
>> about it from a scientific point of view.  Can you imagine how fast the
>> man
>> must have been w walking to have a  tree knock him down?
>>
>> And why hadn't the man noticed the tree before? was this a new place? if
>> so,
>> why was he walking so fast?
>> On Aug 13, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
>>
>>> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this would be my
>>> right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't have anything
>>> in it when using my cane.
>>> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the
>>>> day.
>>>> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was
>>>> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand
>>>> in
>>>> front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a
>>>> thought.
>>>>
>>>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items.
>>>> The
>>>> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any
>>>> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I
>>>> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object,
>>>> or
>>>> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead
>>>> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the
>>>> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the
>>>> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark
>>>> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane
>>>>> but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he
>>>>> knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do
>>>>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the
>>>>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the
>>>>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West
>>>>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>>>> Jessica
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>>> tree
>>>>
>>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>>
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>>>> By bob mims
>>>>
>>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>>
>>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>>>
>>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>>
>>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>>> sidewalk.
>>>>
>>>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>>>
>>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>>>
>>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>>
>>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>>
>>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>>> it,” he said.
>>>>
>>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> __._,_.___
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Mary Fernandez
> Emory University 2012
> P.O. Box 123056
> Atlanta Ga.
> 30322
> Phone: 732-857-7004
> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
> teachers."
> Charles W. Eliot
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>


From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sat Aug 14 06:43:28 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:43:28 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2><03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net><001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901cb3b7c$015aea30$6601a8c0@server>

Hi Curt,
Certainly the city and building owners are likely to argue that the injured
party was neglignet and not them.  Negligence means something quite specific
and it works like this.
The tort of negligance has 4 parts and all 4 parts must be true for their to
be negligance.
The alleged negligent party must have:
1.  Had a duty to act in a particular way or duty to refrain from acting in
a particular way:
2.  He must have breached that duty:
3.  some damage or injury must have occurred:
and
4.  the damage or injury must have been caused by the breach of the duty and
this injury must have been foreseeable.

I don't know exactly how high this branch was off the ground, but let's say
that it was 6 feet 2 inches above the sidewalk given that the injured party
was 6 foot 5 and he walked into it.

My first question would be how was the injured party negligent?  What duty
did he have?  Should he have been walking slower?  Should he have been
walking with his arm up at all times to ensure that he not be struck in the
face by low hanging objects?  Should he have not been walking without a
sighted person guiding him?  Should he have been using a guide dog which
might have noticed the overhanging branch?  I can't think of what other
mobility techniques he could have used so I can't see what duty he breached, 
but I will be interested in reading other peoples ideas.

>From the vantage point of the city, the building owner, and the tenant, did
any or all of them have any duty?  Should it have been foreseeable to any of 
them that someone 6 foot 5
inches might come walking along the sidewalk and be injured by the branch? 
I would think so.  Is it
foreseeable that such a person might run into a tree branch extending out
over a public sidewalk?  I would think so.  One could argue that a sighted
person would not run into the branch because they would see it, and how 
foreseeable is it that a tall blind
person is going to come along and run into it?  How about a tall sighted
person walking along the sidewalk at night?  Perhaps there is a streetlight
directly above the store, so day or night the branch is visible to a tall
sighted person.  Is it foreseeable that the streetlight bulb might burn out,
and then the tall sighted person just like the blind person will not see the 
overhanging branch and can be injured by it?
Does the store owner have to both foresee the possibility that a tall 
sighted person will come along, and also that this might happen at the very 
time the streetlight has burned out?  The answer is almost certainly yes.

Consider this.  I remember reading a case in law school where a negligent 
motorist, caused an injury to
a driver in another car.  The injury was not serious, but serious enough
that the injured party was hospitalized.  While in the hospital the injured 
party had minor surgery as a result of the accident.  Medical malpractice 
was committed during the surgery, and as a result of the malpractice, the 
patient died.  The party who caused the minor accident initially was held 
responsible for the damages resulting from the other parties death, because
the court held that medical malpractice is a foreseeable result from 
negligently causing an injury that results in the injured party being 
hospitalized.

In the actual Utah case being discussed it is also likely that the city has
ordinances which require a specific minimum clearance above all sidewalks of
at least 8 feet and above all roads of at least 12 or 13 feet.  This would
mean that if one has a tree with branches over either of these passageways 
lower than permitted, the owner is responsible to remove them, and he would 
also be
responsible for any damage resulting from failure to remove them.

Our legal system as well as some others around the world are really quite 
extraordinary, and even with their imperfections, it is a remarkabel thing 
when you see it unfold in front of you in law school and the way it all fits 
together.  If one gets their notions of law from television shows like 
Peoples Court or Judge Judy, law appears to be very unpredictable and it 
appears that judges simply do what personally strikes them as fair at the 
moment.  This really is not how it works.  Judges make their decisions based 
on the statutes and the interpretations of those statutes by the courts 
which are superior to the court hearing the case.  No matter what weird 
legal case one bumps into, when a lawyer begins researching similar cases 
you will usually find that it isn't weird at all and has occurred tens of 
thousands of times before, and has already been brilliantly analyzed in 
cases going back hundreds of years, and the legal reasoning of the judges in 
those earlier days was as good or better than much that is written today. 
Television shows like those mentioned drive lawyers and judges insane 
because they totally misrepresent the functioning of the legal system. 
There is nothing I would rather discuss than law, so please feel free to 
contact me on or off the list to talk law.  It is always a pleasure.
Best,
Dennis


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-law] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


Dennis,
  But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
pedestrian?
  With respect,
Kirt

On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello Jessica,
> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your face
> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you must
> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>
> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning
> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions
> the
> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the
> injuries.
> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed
> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.
> If
> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge says
> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include the
> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of
> law
> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
> England, Canada and the U.S.
> Best,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jess as Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
>> Hi All,
>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but
>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew
>> the
>>
>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it
>> would
>>
>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the
>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for
>> five
>>
>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>> Jessica
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Jedi
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>> tree
>>
>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>> Arielle
>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>> By bob mims
>>
>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>
>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>
>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>> it,” he said.
>>
>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
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From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 07:20:50 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 01:20:50 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <003901cb3b7c$015aea30$6601a8c0@server>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
	<001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>
	<003901cb3b7c$015aea30$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=LOoOdD4=doWk3ujQthrtFgjbhcsV0JDL5bGv6@mail.gmail.com>

Dennis,
  I'll contact you off list with more specific questions.  And-
assuming said city statute is in force, the suit could be valid.
However, as I said earlier, that's not what concerns me here.
  Still, and maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but isn't there a
"reasonable person" standard going along with the duty of care you
mentioned earlier?  (I'm getting this from high school mock trials
I've done, so I'm sure it has to be a huge simplification)  So, the
city had a duty of care to keep their sidewalks safe.  Did they breach
that?  Maybe.  But when anyone, blind or otherwise, becomes a
pedestrian, don't they assume a duty of care to keep themselves safe,
insofar as it's reasonable to do so?  I mean, if the plaintiff here
was in an unfamiliar area, wouldn't it be a reasonable precaution,
with the risk he assumed in traveling to a new place, to walk slower?
And, even if he'd gone there before, wouldn't a reasonable person do
everything in their power to avoid these obstacles and minimize the
damage done if you run in to them?  Think about it, for a tree to
"knock you down" you have to be running _pretty_ fast.  Wouldn't you
expect anyone using common sense to not run that fast, especially if
the area was even a little bit unknown? (and, as we all know, even
places we've gone to before can have obstacles and sprinting down a
road is probably not a good idea)  Maybe that's all irrelivant, but to
me it seems there's some room for interpretation.
  However, to me the suit's not the real issue.  Heck, maybe it's
legit.  The problem's the way it was covered.  To me, it points to the
misconceptions about blind people we see all around us.  Just think-
if it were a sighted person, this probably wouldn't have even made the
paper.
 Sincerely,
Kirt
P.S.  Sorry listers, caffeine made me do it! :)

On 8/14/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hi Curt,
> Certainly the city and building owners are likely to argue that the injured
> party was neglignet and not them.  Negligence means something quite specific
> and it works like this.
> The tort of negligance has 4 parts and all 4 parts must be true for their to
> be negligance.
> The alleged negligent party must have:
> 1.  Had a duty to act in a particular way or duty to refrain from acting in
> a particular way:
> 2.  He must have breached that duty:
> 3.  some damage or injury must have occurred:
> and
> 4.  the damage or injury must have been caused by the breach of the duty and
> this injury must have been foreseeable.
>
> I don't know exactly how high this branch was off the ground, but let's say
> that it was 6 feet 2 inches above the sidewalk given that the injured party
> was 6 foot 5 and he walked into it.
>
> My first question would be how was the injured party negligent?  What duty
> did he have?  Should he have been walking slower?  Should he have been
> walking with his arm up at all times to ensure that he not be struck in the
> face by low hanging objects?  Should he have not been walking without a
> sighted person guiding him?  Should he have been using a guide dog which
> might have noticed the overhanging branch?  I can't think of what other
> mobility techniques he could have used so I can't see what duty he breached,
> but I will be interested in reading other peoples ideas.
>
> >From the vantage point of the city, the building owner, and the tenant, did
> any or all of them have any duty?  Should it have been foreseeable to any of
> them that someone 6 foot 5
> inches might come walking along the sidewalk and be injured by the branch?
> I would think so.  Is it
> foreseeable that such a person might run into a tree branch extending out
> over a public sidewalk?  I would think so.  One could argue that a sighted
> person would not run into the branch because they would see it, and how
> foreseeable is it that a tall blind
> person is going to come along and run into it?  How about a tall sighted
> person walking along the sidewalk at night?  Perhaps there is a streetlight
> directly above the store, so day or night the branch is visible to a tall
> sighted person.  Is it foreseeable that the streetlight bulb might burn out,
> and then the tall sighted person just like the blind person will not see the
> overhanging branch and can be injured by it?
> Does the store owner have to both foresee the possibility that a tall
> sighted person will come along, and also that this might happen at the very
> time the streetlight has burned out?  The answer is almost certainly yes.
>
> Consider this.  I remember reading a case in law school where a negligent
> motorist, caused an injury to
> a driver in another car.  The injury was not serious, but serious enough
> that the injured party was hospitalized.  While in the hospital the injured
> party had minor surgery as a result of the accident.  Medical malpractice
> was committed during the surgery, and as a result of the malpractice, the
> patient died.  The party who caused the minor accident initially was held
> responsible for the damages resulting from the other parties death, because
> the court held that medical malpractice is a foreseeable result from
> negligently causing an injury that results in the injured party being
> hospitalized.
>
> In the actual Utah case being discussed it is also likely that the city has
> ordinances which require a specific minimum clearance above all sidewalks of
> at least 8 feet and above all roads of at least 12 or 13 feet.  This would
> mean that if one has a tree with branches over either of these passageways
> lower than permitted, the owner is responsible to remove them, and he would
> also be
> responsible for any damage resulting from failure to remove them.
>
> Our legal system as well as some others around the world are really quite
> extraordinary, and even with their imperfections, it is a remarkabel thing
> when you see it unfold in front of you in law school and the way it all fits
> together.  If one gets their notions of law from television shows like
> Peoples Court or Judge Judy, law appears to be very unpredictable and it
> appears that judges simply do what personally strikes them as fair at the
> moment.  This really is not how it works.  Judges make their decisions based
> on the statutes and the interpretations of those statutes by the courts
> which are superior to the court hearing the case.  No matter what weird
> legal case one bumps into, when a lawyer begins researching similar cases
> you will usually find that it isn't weird at all and has occurred tens of
> thousands of times before, and has already been brilliantly analyzed in
> cases going back hundreds of years, and the legal reasoning of the judges in
> those earlier days was as good or better than much that is written today.
> Television shows like those mentioned drive lawyers and judges insane
> because they totally misrepresent the functioning of the legal system.
> There is nothing I would rather discuss than law, so please feel free to
> contact me on or off the list to talk law.  It is always a pleasure.
> Best,
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-law] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
> Dennis,
>   But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
> hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
> pedestrian?
>   With respect,
> Kirt
>
> On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hello Jessica,
>> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your face
>> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you must
>> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>>
>> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning
>> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions
>> the
>> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the
>> injuries.
>> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
>> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
>> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
>> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
>> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
>> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
>> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed
>> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.
>> If
>> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
>> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge says
>> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include the
>> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of
>> law
>> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
>> England, Canada and the U.S.
>> Best,
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jess as Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but
>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew
>>> the
>>>
>>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it
>>> would
>>>
>>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the
>>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for
>>> five
>>>
>>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>> tree
>>>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>>>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>>>
>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,” he said.
>>>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>
>>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Aug 14 11:27:23 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 06:27:23 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with  tree
In-Reply-To: <03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
Message-ID: <auto-000164365720@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Do you really think that it is reasonable for a 
blind person to have to hold his/her arm up over his/her head all the time.

I don't think so!

Dave

At 09:43 PM 8/13/2010, you wrote:
>Hi All, This is ridiculous   the guy should have 
>been using not only his cane but he should have 
>also had his arm up in a protective way so that 
>he knew the tree was going to be coming up. The 
>city may not be able to do anything because 
>especially if the tree roots are going under the 
>sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much 
>to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the tree 
>and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side 
>of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that 
>sometimes. Jessica -----Original Message----- 
>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
>[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
>Jedi Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM To: 
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind 
>man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree 
>The tree could be an annoying obstacle for 
>anyone, particularly tall people. And yes, it is 
>true that tall blind people who don't use guide 
>dogs or some sort of hand guide 
>device/echolocation are going to miss those 
>overhead branches. However, suing could set a 
>bad precedent as it would reaify the notion that 
>obstacles of any kind are hazardous to blind 
>people because we are blind; the public may take 
>this incident and generalize it to all obstacles 
>whether they're really an inconvenience to 
>one/all of us or not. Respectfully, Jedi 
>Original message: > I thought this story was 
>interesting. What do you think? Is the > lawsuit 
>appropriate? > Arielle > Blind man sues 
>Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree > 
>http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp  
> > By bob mims > The Salt Lake Tribune > Updated 
>Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM > All Nathan Reynolds 
>wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind 
>man > walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant 
>last year, he got a face > full of tree — and 
>severe neck injuries. > Noww, the 36-year-old 
>Utah County man has filed a personal injury > 
>lawsuit against the owners of the 
>Wienerschnitzel at the corner of > North Temple 
>and 800 West in Salt Lake City. > The complaint 
>contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who 
>had been > on his way to the Utah School ffor 
>the Deaf and the Blind — got off a > bus near 
>the Wiienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 
>6-foot-5 man > navigated toward the entrance 
>with his cane swinging in front of him, > he hit 
>the tree, which the suit contends had encroached 
>on the > sidewalk. > “The tree struck him 
>squarely in the face and knocked him to the > 
>ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. 
>“The tree was allowed to grow > in such a way 
>that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to 
>detect its > presence by use of his cane.” > 
>The suit argues that because the tree was 
>“rooted in the ground far to > one side of the 
>sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the > 
>sidewalk,” it had become a “clear 
>hazard.” > Reynolds seeks unspecified 
>reimbursement for past and future medical > 
>expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering 
>stemming from alleged > negligence in the 
>maintenance of the tree. > Along with Grundmann 
>Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the > 
>eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit 
>names Salt Lake City Corp. > and five John Does 
>as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 
>3rd > District Judge Sandra Peuler has been 
>assigned the case. > Daniel J. Grundmann of 
>Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment > 
>Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served 
>with the suit. > Tom Amberger, vice president of 
>marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based > Galaradi 
>Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also 
>declined to > discuss the case. “We are 
>unaware of this lawsuit and will look into > 
>it,” he said. > Ed Rutan, city attorney for 
>Salt Lake City, would not comment, either, > 
>citing the pending nature of the litigation. > 
>__._,_.___ > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, 
>National Association of Blind Students > 
>Phone:  602-502-2255 > Email: > 
>nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > 
>www.nabslink.org > 
>_______________________________________________ > 
>  nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org  
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or 
>get your account info for nabs-l: > 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net 
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>Mobile Network.  Visit www.serotek.com to learn 
>more about accessibility anywhere.

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Aug 14 11:31:37 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 06:31:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with  tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
	<001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000164365827@mailfront2.g2host.com>

It could also be argued that it was negligence on 
the part of the property owner in that a branch 
stuck out over the sidewalk, at a height that 
some people would encounter.  I wouldn't be 
surprised if there isn't a local ordinance against this!

Dave


While a lawsuit may not be the right solution, I 
think most of you are far to quick to blame the 
blind guy.  This could have happened to any of us!

Dave


At 10:30 PM 8/13/2010, you wrote:
>Dennis,
>   But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
>hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
>pedestrian?
>   With respect,
>Kirt
>
>On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Hello Jessica,
> > Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your face
> > to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you must
> > look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
> >
> > Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning
> > hazardous conditions, and when injuries 
> result from hazardous conditions the
> > party or parties who created the condition 
> are responsible for the injuries.
> > The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
> > particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
> > responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
> > building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
> > representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
> > responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
> > possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed
> > against the non responsible parties, but this 
> must be done by the judge.  If
> > the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
> > building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge says
> > that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include the
> > city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of law
> > is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
> > England, Canada and the U.S.
> > Best,
> > Dennis
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jess sA Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> >
> >
> >> Hi All,
> >> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but
> >> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the
> >>
> >> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
> >> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would
> >>
> >> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the
> >> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five
> >>
> >> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
> >> Jessica
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> >> Behalf Of Jedi
> >> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
> >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> >>
> >> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
> >> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
> >> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
> >> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
> >> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
> >> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
> >> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
> >> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
> >>
> >> Respectfully,
> >> Jedi
> >>
> >> Original message:
> >>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
> >>> lawsuit appropriate?
> >>
> >>> Arielle
> >>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> >>
> >>> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
> >>> By bob mims
> >>
> >>> The Salt Lake Tribune
> >>
> >>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
> >>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
> >>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
> >>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
> >>
> >>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
> >>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
> >>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
> >>
> >>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
> >>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
> >>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
> >>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
> >>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
> >>> sidewalk.
> >>
> >>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
> >>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
> >>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
> >>> presence by use of his cane.”
> >>
> >>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
> >>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
> >>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
> >>
> >>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
> >>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
> >>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
> >>
> >>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
> >>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
> >>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
> >>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
> >>
> >>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
> >>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
> >>
> >>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
> >>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
> >>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
> >>> it,” he said.
> >>
> >>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
> >>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
> >>
> >>
> >>> __._,_.___
> >>
> >>
> >>> --
> >>> Arielle Silverman
> >>> President, National Association of Blind Students
> >>> Phone:  602-502-2255
> >>> Email:
> >>> nabs.president at gmail.com
> >>> Website:
> >>> www.nabslink.org
> >>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From tom at evengrounds.com  Sat Aug 14 11:58:24 2010
From: tom at evengrounds.com (Tom Babinszki)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 06:58:24 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Survey on Electronic mail for blind people
Message-ID: <auto-000164366523@mailfront2.g2host.com>

I have been asked to circulate the following:

David Andrews


Mailsurity in collaboration with Even Grounds is planning to start a service
which will allow blind and visually impaired people to receive their mail
electronically. Through this service, paper mail will be scanned and
processed electronically, so the users will be able to read their mail
online.

Users would also be able to receive their original mail, together with
Braille and large print copies if required.

We would like to ask you to fill in a short survey to help us shape this
service according to the needs of future users.

Before the service will be offered, we will meet federal guidelines on
privacy and security issues.

Please note that this service will initially only be available in the United
States.

You can find the survey at:
http://evengrounds.com/mail-survey

Thank you for your help!
-------------- next part --------------
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From jess28 at samobile.net  Sat Aug 14 14:04:26 2010
From: jess28 at samobile.net (Jess sA Mobile)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:04:26 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=LOoOdD4=doWk3ujQthrtFgjbhcsV0JDL5bGv6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>	<001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>	<AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>	<003901cb3b7c$015aea30$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTi=LOoOdD4=doWk3ujQthrtFgjbhcsV0JDL5bGv6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <076a01cb3bb9$9b797d10$d26c7730$@net>

Kirt,
You make sense totally. However we also don't know if the it was just a tree
limb that was hanging over the sidewalk or maybe if like I had said in my
earlier post that the tree could have also grown underneath the sidewalk as
well. If the latter is true though  there may not be much they can do
besides tearing up the sidewalk and taking out the tree and the only time
they'd do that is if the tree wasn't  healthy.
Jessica 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 1:21 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

Dennis,
  I'll contact you off list with more specific questions.  And-
assuming said city statute is in force, the suit could be valid.
However, as I said earlier, that's not what concerns me here.
  Still, and maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but isn't there a
"reasonable person" standard going along with the duty of care you
mentioned earlier?  (I'm getting this from high school mock trials
I've done, so I'm sure it has to be a huge simplification)  So, the
city had a duty of care to keep their sidewalks safe.  Did they breach
that?  Maybe.  But when anyone, blind or otherwise, becomes a
pedestrian, don't they assume a duty of care to keep themselves safe,
insofar as it's reasonable to do so?  I mean, if the plaintiff here
was in an unfamiliar area, wouldn't it be a reasonable precaution,
with the risk he assumed in traveling to a new place, to walk slower?
And, even if he'd gone there before, wouldn't a reasonable person do
everything in their power to avoid these obstacles and minimize the
damage done if you run in to them?  Think about it, for a tree to
"knock you down" you have to be running _pretty_ fast.  Wouldn't you
expect anyone using common sense to not run that fast, especially if
the area was even a little bit unknown? (and, as we all know, even
places we've gone to before can have obstacles and sprinting down a
road is probably not a good idea)  Maybe that's all irrelivant, but to
me it seems there's some room for interpretation.
  However, to me the suit's not the real issue.  Heck, maybe it's
legit.  The problem's the way it was covered.  To me, it points to the
misconceptions about blind people we see all around us.  Just think-
if it were a sighted person, this probably wouldn't have even made the
paper.
 Sincerely,
Kirt
P.S.  Sorry listers, caffeine made me do it! :)

On 8/14/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hi Curt,
> Certainly the city and building owners are likely to argue that the
injured
> party was neglignet and not them.  Negligence means something quite
specific
> and it works like this.
> The tort of negligance has 4 parts and all 4 parts must be true for their
to
> be negligance.
> The alleged negligent party must have:
> 1.  Had a duty to act in a particular way or duty to refrain from acting
in
> a particular way:
> 2.  He must have breached that duty:
> 3.  some damage or injury must have occurred:
> and
> 4.  the damage or injury must have been caused by the breach of the duty
and
> this injury must have been foreseeable.
>
> I don't know exactly how high this branch was off the ground, but let's
say
> that it was 6 feet 2 inches above the sidewalk given that the injured
party
> was 6 foot 5 and he walked into it.
>
> My first question would be how was the injured party negligent?  What duty
> did he have?  Should he have been walking slower?  Should he have been
> walking with his arm up at all times to ensure that he not be struck in
the
> face by low hanging objects?  Should he have not been walking without a
> sighted person guiding him?  Should he have been using a guide dog which
> might have noticed the overhanging branch?  I can't think of what other
> mobility techniques he could have used so I can't see what duty he
breached,
> but I will be interested in reading other peoples ideas.
>
> >From the vantage point of the city, the building owner, and the tenant,
did
> any or all of them have any duty?  Should it have been foreseeable to any
of
> them that someone 6 foot 5
> inches might come walking along the sidewalk and be injured by the branch?
> I would think so.  Is it
> foreseeable that such a person might run into a tree branch extending out
> over a public sidewalk?  I would think so.  One could argue that a sighted
> person would not run into the branch because they would see it, and how
> foreseeable is it that a tall blind
> person is going to come along and run into it?  How about a tall sighted
> person walking along the sidewalk at night?  Perhaps there is a
streetlight
> directly above the store, so day or night the branch is visible to a tall
> sighted person.  Is it foreseeable that the streetlight bulb might burn
out,
> and then the tall sighted person just like the blind person will not see
the
> overhanging branch and can be injured by it?
> Does the store owner have to both foresee the possibility that a tall
> sighted person will come along, and also that this might happen at the
very
> time the streetlight has burned out?  The answer is almost certainly yes.
>
> Consider this.  I remember reading a case in law school where a negligent
> motorist, caused an injury to
> a driver in another car.  The injury was not serious, but serious enough
> that the injured party was hospitalized.  While in the hospital the
injured
> party had minor surgery as a result of the accident.  Medical malpractice
> was committed during the surgery, and as a result of the malpractice, the
> patient died.  The party who caused the minor accident initially was held
> responsible for the damages resulting from the other parties death,
because
> the court held that medical malpractice is a foreseeable result from
> negligently causing an injury that results in the injured party being
> hospitalized.
>
> In the actual Utah case being discussed it is also likely that the city
has
> ordinances which require a specific minimum clearance above all sidewalks
of
> at least 8 feet and above all roads of at least 12 or 13 feet.  This would
> mean that if one has a tree with branches over either of these passageways
> lower than permitted, the owner is responsible to remove them, and he
would
> also be
> responsible for any damage resulting from failure to remove them.
>
> Our legal system as well as some others around the world are really quite
> extraordinary, and even with their imperfections, it is a remarkabel thing
> when you see it unfold in front of you in law school and the way it all
fits
> together.  If one gets their notions of law from television shows like
> Peoples Court or Judge Judy, law appears to be very unpredictable and it
> appears that judges simply do what personally strikes them as fair at the
> moment.  This really is not how it works.  Judges make their decisions
based
> on the statutes and the interpretations of those statutes by the courts
> which are superior to the court hearing the case.  No matter what weird
> legal case one bumps into, when a lawyer begins researching similar cases
> you will usually find that it isn't weird at all and has occurred tens of
> thousands of times before, and has already been brilliantly analyzed in
> cases going back hundreds of years, and the legal reasoning of the judges
in
> those earlier days was as good or better than much that is written today.
> Television shows like those mentioned drive lawyers and judges insane
> because they totally misrepresent the functioning of the legal system.
> There is nothing I would rather discuss than law, so please feel free to
> contact me on or off the list to talk law.  It is always a pleasure.
> Best,
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-law] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
tree
>
>
> Dennis,
>   But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
> hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
> pedestrian?
>   With respect,
> Kirt
>
> On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hello Jessica,
>> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your
face
>> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you
must
>> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>>
>> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning
>> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions
>> the
>> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the
>> injuries.
>> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
>> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
>> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
>> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
>> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
>> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
>> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed
>> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.
>> If
>> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
>> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge
says
>> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include
the
>> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of
>> law
>> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
>> England, Canada and the U.S.
>> Best,
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jess as Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
tree
>>
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane
but
>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew
>>> the
>>>
>>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it
>>> would
>>>
>>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out
the
>>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for
>>> five
>>>
>>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>> tree
>>>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>
>>>>
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-
suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>>>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree - and severe neck injuries.
>>>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds - who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind - got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>>>
>>>> "The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground," states the suit, filed Tuesday. "The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane."
>>>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was "rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk," it had become a "clear hazard."
>>>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds' 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. "We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it," he said.
>>>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>
>>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
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bile.net
>>>
>>> --
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>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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From trillian551 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 13:31:30 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:31:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <076a01cb3bb9$9b797d10$d26c7730$@net>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
	<001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>
	<003901cb3b7c$015aea30$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTi=LOoOdD4=doWk3ujQthrtFgjbhcsV0JDL5bGv6@mail.gmail.com>
	<076a01cb3bb9$9b797d10$d26c7730$@net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLQMtVM5SE9Sy_pvRNf4_fiH5mOoCL49oR1aAH@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,
I mean, if there's a local ordinance,  can't they just cut down the
overhanging branch. There's no need to cut down the whole tree, since
we need the extra oxygen anyway.
And Kurt, slowing down your pace of walking simply because you're in
an unfamiliar area kind of defeats the purpose of getting mobility
training. I'm not sure he had to be sprinting in order for this to
happen. Maybe it was a really big, strong branch. And maybe, if such a
big tree is growing in the area, the roots had caused a crack in the
sidewalk. Ug. Now I want to talk to this guy and see what really
happened!

Mary

On 8/14/10, Jess sA Mobile <jess28 at samobile.net> wrote:
> Kirt,
> You make sense totally. However we also don't know if the it was just a tree
> limb that was hanging over the sidewalk or maybe if like I had said in my
> earlier post that the tree could have also grown underneath the sidewalk as
> well. If the latter is true though  there may not be much they can do
> besides tearing up the sidewalk and taking out the tree and the only time
> they'd do that is if the tree wasn't  healthy.
> Jessica
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 1:21 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
> Dennis,
>   I'll contact you off list with more specific questions.  And-
> assuming said city statute is in force, the suit could be valid.
> However, as I said earlier, that's not what concerns me here.
>   Still, and maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but isn't there a
> "reasonable person" standard going along with the duty of care you
> mentioned earlier?  (I'm getting this from high school mock trials
> I've done, so I'm sure it has to be a huge simplification)  So, the
> city had a duty of care to keep their sidewalks safe.  Did they breach
> that?  Maybe.  But when anyone, blind or otherwise, becomes a
> pedestrian, don't they assume a duty of care to keep themselves safe,
> insofar as it's reasonable to do so?  I mean, if the plaintiff here
> was in an unfamiliar area, wouldn't it be a reasonable precaution,
> with the risk he assumed in traveling to a new place, to walk slower?
> And, even if he'd gone there before, wouldn't a reasonable person do
> everything in their power to avoid these obstacles and minimize the
> damage done if you run in to them?  Think about it, for a tree to
> "knock you down" you have to be running _pretty_ fast.  Wouldn't you
> expect anyone using common sense to not run that fast, especially if
> the area was even a little bit unknown? (and, as we all know, even
> places we've gone to before can have obstacles and sprinting down a
> road is probably not a good idea)  Maybe that's all irrelivant, but to
> me it seems there's some room for interpretation.
>   However, to me the suit's not the real issue.  Heck, maybe it's
> legit.  The problem's the way it was covered.  To me, it points to the
> misconceptions about blind people we see all around us.  Just think-
> if it were a sighted person, this probably wouldn't have even made the
> paper.
>  Sincerely,
> Kirt
> P.S.  Sorry listers, caffeine made me do it! :)
>
> On 8/14/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hi Curt,
>> Certainly the city and building owners are likely to argue that the
> injured
>> party was neglignet and not them.  Negligence means something quite
> specific
>> and it works like this.
>> The tort of negligance has 4 parts and all 4 parts must be true for their
> to
>> be negligance.
>> The alleged negligent party must have:
>> 1.  Had a duty to act in a particular way or duty to refrain from acting
> in
>> a particular way:
>> 2.  He must have breached that duty:
>> 3.  some damage or injury must have occurred:
>> and
>> 4.  the damage or injury must have been caused by the breach of the duty
> and
>> this injury must have been foreseeable.
>>
>> I don't know exactly how high this branch was off the ground, but let's
> say
>> that it was 6 feet 2 inches above the sidewalk given that the injured
> party
>> was 6 foot 5 and he walked into it.
>>
>> My first question would be how was the injured party negligent?  What duty
>> did he have?  Should he have been walking slower?  Should he have been
>> walking with his arm up at all times to ensure that he not be struck in
> the
>> face by low hanging objects?  Should he have not been walking without a
>> sighted person guiding him?  Should he have been using a guide dog which
>> might have noticed the overhanging branch?  I can't think of what other
>> mobility techniques he could have used so I can't see what duty he
> breached,
>> but I will be interested in reading other peoples ideas.
>>
>> >From the vantage point of the city, the building owner, and the tenant,
> did
>> any or all of them have any duty?  Should it have been foreseeable to any
> of
>> them that someone 6 foot 5
>> inches might come walking along the sidewalk and be injured by the branch?
>> I would think so.  Is it
>> foreseeable that such a person might run into a tree branch extending out
>> over a public sidewalk?  I would think so.  One could argue that a sighted
>> person would not run into the branch because they would see it, and how
>> foreseeable is it that a tall blind
>> person is going to come along and run into it?  How about a tall sighted
>> person walking along the sidewalk at night?  Perhaps there is a
> streetlight
>> directly above the store, so day or night the branch is visible to a tall
>> sighted person.  Is it foreseeable that the streetlight bulb might burn
> out,
>> and then the tall sighted person just like the blind person will not see
> the
>> overhanging branch and can be injured by it?
>> Does the store owner have to both foresee the possibility that a tall
>> sighted person will come along, and also that this might happen at the
> very
>> time the streetlight has burned out?  The answer is almost certainly yes.
>>
>> Consider this.  I remember reading a case in law school where a negligent
>> motorist, caused an injury to
>> a driver in another car.  The injury was not serious, but serious enough
>> that the injured party was hospitalized.  While in the hospital the
> injured
>> party had minor surgery as a result of the accident.  Medical malpractice
>> was committed during the surgery, and as a result of the malpractice, the
>> patient died.  The party who caused the minor accident initially was held
>> responsible for the damages resulting from the other parties death,
> because
>> the court held that medical malpractice is a foreseeable result from
>> negligently causing an injury that results in the injured party being
>> hospitalized.
>>
>> In the actual Utah case being discussed it is also likely that the city
> has
>> ordinances which require a specific minimum clearance above all sidewalks
> of
>> at least 8 feet and above all roads of at least 12 or 13 feet.  This would
>> mean that if one has a tree with branches over either of these passageways
>> lower than permitted, the owner is responsible to remove them, and he
> would
>> also be
>> responsible for any damage resulting from failure to remove them.
>>
>> Our legal system as well as some others around the world are really quite
>> extraordinary, and even with their imperfections, it is a remarkabel thing
>> when you see it unfold in front of you in law school and the way it all
> fits
>> together.  If one gets their notions of law from television shows like
>> Peoples Court or Judge Judy, law appears to be very unpredictable and it
>> appears that judges simply do what personally strikes them as fair at the
>> moment.  This really is not how it works.  Judges make their decisions
> based
>> on the statutes and the interpretations of those statutes by the courts
>> which are superior to the court hearing the case.  No matter what weird
>> legal case one bumps into, when a lawyer begins researching similar cases
>> you will usually find that it isn't weird at all and has occurred tens of
>> thousands of times before, and has already been brilliantly analyzed in
>> cases going back hundreds of years, and the legal reasoning of the judges
> in
>> those earlier days was as good or better than much that is written today.
>> Television shows like those mentioned drive lawyers and judges insane
>> because they totally misrepresent the functioning of the legal system.
>> There is nothing I would rather discuss than law, so please feel free to
>> contact me on or off the list to talk law.  It is always a pleasure.
>> Best,
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-law] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
> tree
>>
>>
>> Dennis,
>>   But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
>> hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
>> pedestrian?
>>   With respect,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hello Jessica,
>>> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your
> face
>>> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you
> must
>>> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>>>
>>> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning
>>> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions
>>> the
>>> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the
>>> injuries.
>>> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
>>> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
>>> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
>>> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
>>> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
>>> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
>>> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed
>>> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.
>>> If
>>> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
>>> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge
> says
>>> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include
> the
>>> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of
>>> law
>>> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
>>> England, Canada and the U.S.
>>> Best,
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jess as Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
> tree
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane
> but
>>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>>>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it
>>>> would
>>>>
>>>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out
> the
>>>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for
>>>> five
>>>>
>>>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>>> Jessica
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>> tree
>>>>
>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>>
>>>>>
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-
> suit.html.csp
>>>>> By bob mims
>>>>
>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>>
>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>> full of tree - and severe neck injuries.
>>>>
>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>>
>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds - who had been
>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind - got off a
>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>> sidewalk.
>>>>
>>>>> "The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>> ground," states the suit, filed Tuesday. "The tree was allowed to grow
>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>> presence by use of his cane."
>>>>
>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was "rooted in the ground far to
>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>> sidewalk," it had become a "clear hazard."
>>>>
>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>>
>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>> eatery, Reynolds' 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>>
>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>>
>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>> discuss the case. "We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>> it," he said.
>>>>
>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> __._,_.___
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo
> bile.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 13:59:54 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:59:54 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikLQMtVM5SE9Sy_pvRNf4_fiH5mOoCL49oR1aAH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<03b401cb3b5a$863cd460$92b67d20$@net>
	<001c01cb3b60$970c3550$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>
	<003901cb3b7c$015aea30$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTi=LOoOdD4=doWk3ujQthrtFgjbhcsV0JDL5bGv6@mail.gmail.com>
	<076a01cb3bb9$9b797d10$d26c7730$@net>
	<AANLkTikLQMtVM5SE9Sy_pvRNf4_fiH5mOoCL49oR1aAH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=hQr1+snYz0DmXXdxEs8DWQa1YtZby5Utphn__@mail.gmail.com>

This sounds like a gold digger to me... It will only make blind people
look incompetent and unable to avoid obstacles that are not detectable
by cane. Should I sue the city because the kudzu has taken over the
bridge and pulls my cane away from me constantly as I cross on my way
to the North Carolina Rehabilitation Center for the Blind? Should I
sue every property owner who has trees, bushes, or other plants
hanging over into the sidewalk (which is everywhere)? At one location,
I found the trees (large evergreens) had taken up so much of the
sidewalk that I had to step into the street to continue on my route,
but did I sue the company? Nope...that would be silly. I mentioned it
to them and they trimmed the trees so they didn't take over the
sidewalk.

Did he even *try* to fix this quietly? How much personal injury can
you accrue from running into a tree? I've run into a metal pole pretty
hard and it left a dent in my forehead (very small one, but it's there
as a reminder of the incidence) and it did not cause enough damage to
sue anyone, though I might have sued the person who grabbed my arm and
kept me from detecting the pole as I approached it (they claimed they
were trying to keep me from hitting the pole, but if they had left me
alone, my cane would have tapped it and I would have gone around). At
six foot five, this man should know that he's likely to find obstacles
with his head that shops don't realize is an obstacle. It must have
been pretty high up to hit him in the head. Did he even try to take it
up quietly with the shop manager to get them to put some kind of
warning obstacle or to take the tree down? Really sounds like he's
just in it for the money, and I don't think he really has enough of a
case to warrent a lawsuit. What, did he break his neck when he fell?
How did a tree cause enough damage to his person to warrant a full-out
lawsuit?

My two cents is that this is a gold digger who is just making all
blind people look bad.

~Jewel

On 8/14/10, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all,
> I mean, if there's a local ordinance,  can't they just cut down the
> overhanging branch. There's no need to cut down the whole tree, since
> we need the extra oxygen anyway.
> And Kurt, slowing down your pace of walking simply because you're in
> an unfamiliar area kind of defeats the purpose of getting mobility
> training. I'm not sure he had to be sprinting in order for this to
> happen. Maybe it was a really big, strong branch. And maybe, if such a
> big tree is growing in the area, the roots had caused a crack in the
> sidewalk. Ug. Now I want to talk to this guy and see what really
> happened!
>
> Mary
>
> On 8/14/10, Jess sA Mobile <jess28 at samobile.net> wrote:
>> Kirt,
>> You make sense totally. However we also don't know if the it was just a
>> tree
>> limb that was hanging over the sidewalk or maybe if like I had said in my
>> earlier post that the tree could have also grown underneath the sidewalk
>> as
>> well. If the latter is true though  there may not be much they can do
>> besides tearing up the sidewalk and taking out the tree and the only time
>> they'd do that is if the tree wasn't  healthy.
>> Jessica
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Kirt Manwaring
>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 1:21 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>> Dennis,
>>   I'll contact you off list with more specific questions.  And-
>> assuming said city statute is in force, the suit could be valid.
>> However, as I said earlier, that's not what concerns me here.
>>   Still, and maybe I'm oversimplifying here, but isn't there a
>> "reasonable person" standard going along with the duty of care you
>> mentioned earlier?  (I'm getting this from high school mock trials
>> I've done, so I'm sure it has to be a huge simplification)  So, the
>> city had a duty of care to keep their sidewalks safe.  Did they breach
>> that?  Maybe.  But when anyone, blind or otherwise, becomes a
>> pedestrian, don't they assume a duty of care to keep themselves safe,
>> insofar as it's reasonable to do so?  I mean, if the plaintiff here
>> was in an unfamiliar area, wouldn't it be a reasonable precaution,
>> with the risk he assumed in traveling to a new place, to walk slower?
>> And, even if he'd gone there before, wouldn't a reasonable person do
>> everything in their power to avoid these obstacles and minimize the
>> damage done if you run in to them?  Think about it, for a tree to
>> "knock you down" you have to be running _pretty_ fast.  Wouldn't you
>> expect anyone using common sense to not run that fast, especially if
>> the area was even a little bit unknown? (and, as we all know, even
>> places we've gone to before can have obstacles and sprinting down a
>> road is probably not a good idea)  Maybe that's all irrelivant, but to
>> me it seems there's some room for interpretation.
>>   However, to me the suit's not the real issue.  Heck, maybe it's
>> legit.  The problem's the way it was covered.  To me, it points to the
>> misconceptions about blind people we see all around us.  Just think-
>> if it were a sighted person, this probably wouldn't have even made the
>> paper.
>>  Sincerely,
>> Kirt
>> P.S.  Sorry listers, caffeine made me do it! :)
>>
>> On 8/14/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Curt,
>>> Certainly the city and building owners are likely to argue that the
>> injured
>>> party was neglignet and not them.  Negligence means something quite
>> specific
>>> and it works like this.
>>> The tort of negligance has 4 parts and all 4 parts must be true for their
>> to
>>> be negligance.
>>> The alleged negligent party must have:
>>> 1.  Had a duty to act in a particular way or duty to refrain from acting
>> in
>>> a particular way:
>>> 2.  He must have breached that duty:
>>> 3.  some damage or injury must have occurred:
>>> and
>>> 4.  the damage or injury must have been caused by the breach of the duty
>> and
>>> this injury must have been foreseeable.
>>>
>>> I don't know exactly how high this branch was off the ground, but let's
>> say
>>> that it was 6 feet 2 inches above the sidewalk given that the injured
>> party
>>> was 6 foot 5 and he walked into it.
>>>
>>> My first question would be how was the injured party negligent?  What
>>> duty
>>> did he have?  Should he have been walking slower?  Should he have been
>>> walking with his arm up at all times to ensure that he not be struck in
>> the
>>> face by low hanging objects?  Should he have not been walking without a
>>> sighted person guiding him?  Should he have been using a guide dog which
>>> might have noticed the overhanging branch?  I can't think of what other
>>> mobility techniques he could have used so I can't see what duty he
>> breached,
>>> but I will be interested in reading other peoples ideas.
>>>
>>> >From the vantage point of the city, the building owner, and the tenant,
>> did
>>> any or all of them have any duty?  Should it have been foreseeable to any
>> of
>>> them that someone 6 foot 5
>>> inches might come walking along the sidewalk and be injured by the
>>> branch?
>>> I would think so.  Is it
>>> foreseeable that such a person might run into a tree branch extending out
>>> over a public sidewalk?  I would think so.  One could argue that a
>>> sighted
>>> person would not run into the branch because they would see it, and how
>>> foreseeable is it that a tall blind
>>> person is going to come along and run into it?  How about a tall sighted
>>> person walking along the sidewalk at night?  Perhaps there is a
>> streetlight
>>> directly above the store, so day or night the branch is visible to a tall
>>> sighted person.  Is it foreseeable that the streetlight bulb might burn
>> out,
>>> and then the tall sighted person just like the blind person will not see
>> the
>>> overhanging branch and can be injured by it?
>>> Does the store owner have to both foresee the possibility that a tall
>>> sighted person will come along, and also that this might happen at the
>> very
>>> time the streetlight has burned out?  The answer is almost certainly yes.
>>>
>>> Consider this.  I remember reading a case in law school where a negligent
>>> motorist, caused an injury to
>>> a driver in another car.  The injury was not serious, but serious enough
>>> that the injured party was hospitalized.  While in the hospital the
>> injured
>>> party had minor surgery as a result of the accident.  Medical malpractice
>>> was committed during the surgery, and as a result of the malpractice, the
>>> patient died.  The party who caused the minor accident initially was held
>>> responsible for the damages resulting from the other parties death,
>> because
>>> the court held that medical malpractice is a foreseeable result from
>>> negligently causing an injury that results in the injured party being
>>> hospitalized.
>>>
>>> In the actual Utah case being discussed it is also likely that the city
>> has
>>> ordinances which require a specific minimum clearance above all sidewalks
>> of
>>> at least 8 feet and above all roads of at least 12 or 13 feet.  This
>>> would
>>> mean that if one has a tree with branches over either of these
>>> passageways
>>> lower than permitted, the owner is responsible to remove them, and he
>> would
>>> also be
>>> responsible for any damage resulting from failure to remove them.
>>>
>>> Our legal system as well as some others around the world are really quite
>>> extraordinary, and even with their imperfections, it is a remarkabel
>>> thing
>>> when you see it unfold in front of you in law school and the way it all
>> fits
>>> together.  If one gets their notions of law from television shows like
>>> Peoples Court or Judge Judy, law appears to be very unpredictable and it
>>> appears that judges simply do what personally strikes them as fair at the
>>> moment.  This really is not how it works.  Judges make their decisions
>> based
>>> on the statutes and the interpretations of those statutes by the courts
>>> which are superior to the court hearing the case.  No matter what weird
>>> legal case one bumps into, when a lawyer begins researching similar cases
>>> you will usually find that it isn't weird at all and has occurred tens of
>>> thousands of times before, and has already been brilliantly analyzed in
>>> cases going back hundreds of years, and the legal reasoning of the judges
>> in
>>> those earlier days was as good or better than much that is written today.
>>> Television shows like those mentioned drive lawyers and judges insane
>>> because they totally misrepresent the functioning of the legal system.
>>> There is nothing I would rather discuss than law, so please feel free to
>>> contact me on or off the list to talk law.  It is always a pleasure.
>>> Best,
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-law] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>> tree
>>>
>>>
>>> Dennis,
>>>   But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
>>> hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
>>> pedestrian?
>>>   With respect,
>>> Kirt
>>>
>>> On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello Jessica,
>>>> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your
>> face
>>>> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you
>> must
>>>> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>>>>
>>>> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear
>>>> concerning
>>>> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions
>>>> the
>>>> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the
>>>> injuries.
>>>> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
>>>> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
>>>> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
>>>> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
>>>> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
>>>> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
>>>> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be
>>>> dismissed
>>>> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.
>>>> If
>>>> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
>>>> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge
>> says
>>>> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include
>> the
>>>> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of
>>>> law
>>>> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
>>>> England, Canada and the U.S.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Dennis
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jess as Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>> tree
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane
>> but
>>>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew
>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>>>>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it
>>>>> would
>>>>>
>>>>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out
>> the
>>>>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for
>>>>> five
>>>>>
>>>>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>>>> Jessica
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>>> tree
>>>>>
>>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>>>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-
>> suit.html.csp
>>>>>> By bob mims
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>>>
>>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>>> full of tree - and severe neck injuries.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds - who had been
>>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind - got off a
>>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>>> sidewalk.
>>>>>
>>>>>> "The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>>> ground," states the suit, filed Tuesday. "The tree was allowed to grow
>>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>>> presence by use of his cane."
>>>>>
>>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was "rooted in the ground far to
>>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>>> sidewalk," it had become a "clear hazard."
>>>>>
>>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>>> eatery, Reynolds' 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>>> discuss the case. "We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>>> it," he said.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> __._,_.___
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo
>> bile.net
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcgl
>> obal.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
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>> il.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> Mary Fernandez
> Emory University 2012
> P.O. Box 123056
> Atlanta Ga.
> 30322
> Phone: 732-857-7004
> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
> teachers."
> Charles W. Eliot
>
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-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 15:06:40 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:06:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=KW3pOHgyAE54vAE5L=_TYfxGTeKbvQa1FRnrN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1><BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=KW3pOHgyAE54vAE5L=_TYfxGTeKbvQa1FRnrN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5BACC81A9CB94E96934CF849EEBFB11E@Rufus>

And what would happen if a blind driver were involved in an accident?  Would
the same attitudes prevail for a possible lawsuit against the car
manufacturer?  It only goes to show that we need to properly set the stage
for the invention by first fixing attitudes rather than the other way
around.

Sorry, couldn't help it.

As to this incident, I'm embarrassed to admit I laughed my head off.  No,
it's not at all funny that the guy was knocked over by a tree, but I think
the impetus for his proclaimed lawsuit came more out of an injured pride
than an injured body.  Yet, there are obstruction laws, and his case may
very well gain minor traction if only because of their existence.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:01 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with tree

I totally agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far.
But, allow me to go out on a limb for a second.  (sorry, I'm tired)
The suit doesn't worry me as much as the way the newspaper portrays
it.  I mean...it seems like this reporter's already pretty much just
gone and made the opening arguments for the plaintiff here.  Whatever
happened to balanced journalism?  Seriously though- all this guy's
lawyer has to do is read this article in front of the judge.  No need
to prepare any sort of argument, the reporter's pretty much summarized
(and agreed with) this guy's case.
  I'm sure there's nothing ill-intentioned about it.  The newspaper
writer probably felt quite sympathetic and wanted to help the poor,
hurt blind boy out.  Or- and this is what really scares me- social
atitudes about blind people not being able to travel independently
without getting hurt have influenced this reporter so much that he (or
maybe she, I dunno) perhaps didn't even realize the bias in the story?
 Just a thought.  Let me know if I'm being a bit overdramatic here,
but the atitude which clearly is conveyed in this article worries me
much, much more than a silly law suit ever could.

On 8/13/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this 
would be my
> right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't 
have anything in
> it when using my cane.
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the 
end of the day.
>> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was
>> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town 
with his hand in
>> front of his face just in case something like this happens 
again? Just a
>> thought.
>>
>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect 
overhanging items. The
>> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any
>> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front 
of my face, I
>> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block 
the object, or
>> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead
>> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in 
instances where the
>> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the
>> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark
>> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>>
>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not 
only his cane but
>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so 
that he knew
>>> the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do
>>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the
>>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to 
cut up the
>>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived 
on the West
>>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with
>>> tree
>>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who 
don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are 
going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad 
precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>>> 
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wien
erschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree - and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds - 
who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind - 
got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in 
front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>>> "The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground," states the suit, filed Tuesday. "The tree was 
allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane."
>>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was "rooted in the 
ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk," it had become a "clear hazard."
>>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and 
future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds' 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake 
City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. "We are unaware of this lawsuit and will 
look into
>>>> it," he said.
>>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not 
comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblin
djedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12
%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> 
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zydude%40gmail.com
>

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From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 17:55:53 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:55:53 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <5BACC81A9CB94E96934CF849EEBFB11E@Rufus>
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1>
	<BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=KW3pOHgyAE54vAE5L=_TYfxGTeKbvQa1FRnrN@mail.gmail.com>
	<5BACC81A9CB94E96934CF849EEBFB11E@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bVP87NuaYwRurAqWAXL_go8keQgD3SiOdVvWh@mail.gmail.com>

If there was a crack in the sidewalk, I think he should've been able
to feel it with his cane.  And, Mary, I'm not saying you walk really
slow down a sidewalk.  But, if the roots caused a crack in the
sidwalk, that's totally the sort of thing a cane _should_ be able to
pick up.  And, for a 6-5 man to get "knocked to the ground" by a tree
branch (even if it's a thick one) would take more than just walking at
a brisk pace.  Any thoughts?

On 8/14/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> And what would happen if a blind driver were involved in an accident?  Would
> the same attitudes prevail for a possible lawsuit against the car
> manufacturer?  It only goes to show that we need to properly set the stage
> for the invention by first fixing attitudes rather than the other way
> around.
>
> Sorry, couldn't help it.
>
> As to this incident, I'm embarrassed to admit I laughed my head off.  No,
> it's not at all funny that the guy was knocked over by a tree, but I think
> the impetus for his proclaimed lawsuit came more out of an injured pride
> than an injured body.  Yet, there are obstruction laws, and his case may
> very well gain minor traction if only because of their existence.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:01 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over
> run-in with tree
>
> I totally agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far.
> But, allow me to go out on a limb for a second.  (sorry, I'm tired)
> The suit doesn't worry me as much as the way the newspaper portrays
> it.  I mean...it seems like this reporter's already pretty much just
> gone and made the opening arguments for the plaintiff here.  Whatever
> happened to balanced journalism?  Seriously though- all this guy's
> lawyer has to do is read this article in front of the judge.  No need
> to prepare any sort of argument, the reporter's pretty much summarized
> (and agreed with) this guy's case.
>   I'm sure there's nothing ill-intentioned about it.  The newspaper
> writer probably felt quite sympathetic and wanted to help the poor,
> hurt blind boy out.  Or- and this is what really scares me- social
> atitudes about blind people not being able to travel independently
> without getting hurt have influenced this reporter so much that he (or
> maybe she, I dunno) perhaps didn't even realize the bias in the story?
>  Just a thought.  Let me know if I'm being a bit overdramatic here,
> but the atitude which clearly is conveyed in this article worries me
> much, much more than a silly law suit ever could.
>
> On 8/13/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this
> would be my
>> right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't
> have anything in
>> it when using my cane.
>> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>
>>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the
> end of the day.
>>> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was
>>> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town
> with his hand in
>>> front of his face just in case something like this happens
> again? Just a
>>> thought.
>>>
>>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect
> overhanging items. The
>>> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any
>>> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front
> of my face, I
>>> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block
> the object, or
>>> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead
>>> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in
> instances where the
>>> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the
>>> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark
>>> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>>>
>>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not
> only his cane but
>>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so
> that he knew
>>>> the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do
>>>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the
>>>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to
> cut up the
>>>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived
> on the West
>>>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>>> Jessica
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over
> run-in with
>>>> tree
>>>
>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who
> don't use guide
>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are
> going to miss
>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad
> precedent as it
>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>
>>>>>
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wien
> erschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>>> By bob mims
>>>
>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>
>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>> full of tree - and severe neck injuries.
>>>
>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>
>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds -
> who had been
>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind -
> got off a
>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in
> front of him,
>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>> sidewalk.
>>>
>>>>> "The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>> ground," states the suit, filed Tuesday. "The tree was
> allowed to grow
>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>> presence by use of his cane."
>>>
>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was "rooted in the
> ground far to
>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>> sidewalk," it had become a "clear hazard."
>>>
>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and
> future medical
>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>
>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>> eatery, Reynolds' 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake
> City Corp.
>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>
>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>
>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>> discuss the case. "We are unaware of this lawsuit and will
> look into
>>>>> it," he said.
>>>
>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not
> comment, either,
>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> __._,_.___
>>>
>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblin
> djedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12
> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.cra
> zydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
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> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>


From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 18:20:22 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:20:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] I think this point is importent for cross-posting: Re:
	Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimwrV-aXy15wCdNRdOg6xeq4Q5KgJAWiAQ5kTHN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <340519.76082.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I want to cross post because this topic infuriates me.
Stories like this make me want to say the following to the individual who sued or who is planning to sue because of a tree near a sidewalk:
Dear sir/madam, I would like to thank you for reinventing the wheel of negativity towards the blind as well as keeping old stereotypes alive and thriving about us as careless people in need of special demands. We are demanding blind people who will radically demand hour way because we are “blind people.” I am a blind person who feels that society owes us nothing.  Thank you for making me and others work harder at fixing the damage you caused.  A sudden careless action from individuals such as you will easily undo efforts of extensive leadership, education, legislation, etc.  Put yourself in the shoes of the next blind person who may decide to rent an apartment, seek employment, or just attempt to make a new friend or establish a relationship with a member of this company.  You just set the precedent that they need to be mindful of us in such a horrible context.  The next time you are told that someone is denied because they suspect discrimination of
 blindness, I want you to adequately reflect on your actions.  I hope you lose in court.  I hope they see that this is an individual acting as if they are owed something from society and not a poor blind person who is inadequate, untrained, and most importantly demanding of society to revolve around them.  Sincerely,
-Will-


--- On Fri, 8/13/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Friday, August 13, 2010, 6:53 PM
> I thought this story was interesting.
> What do you think? Is the
> lawsuit appropriate?
> 
> Arielle
> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
> By bob mims
> 
> The Salt Lake Tribune
> 
> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the
> blind man
> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he
> got a face
> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
> 
> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal
> injury
> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the
> corner of
> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
> 
> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds —
> who had been
> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind
> — got off a
> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5
> man
> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in
> front of him,
> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on
> the
> sidewalk.
> 
> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him
> to the
> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was
> allowed to grow
> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to
> detect its
> presence by use of his cane.”
> 
> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the
> ground far to
> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across
> the
> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
> 
> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and
> future medical
> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from
> alleged
> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
> 
> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner
> of the
> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake
> City Corp.
> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury
> trial; 3rd
> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
> 
> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to
> comment
> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the
> suit.
> 
> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine,
> Calif.-based
> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also
> declined to
> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and
> will look into
> it,” he said.
> 
> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not
> comment, either,
> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
> 
> 
> __._,_.___
> 
> 
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From jp100 at earthlink.net  Sat Aug 14 18:28:38 2010
From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:28:38 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] I think this point is important for cross-posting:
	Re:	Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <340519.76082.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTimwrV-aXy15wCdNRdOg6xeq4Q5KgJAWiAQ5kTHN@mail.gmail.com>
	<340519.76082.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00fd01cb3bde$84338ae0$8c9aa0a0$@net>

Very well said, Will!
Right on!


-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of William ODonnell
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:20 AM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org; nagdu at nfbnet.org; promotion-technology at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] I think this point is importent for cross-posting: Re: Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

I want to cross post because this topic infuriates me.
Stories like this make me want to say the following to the individual who sued or who is planning to sue because of a tree near a sidewalk:
Dear sir/madam, I would like to thank you for reinventing the wheel of negativity towards the blind as well as keeping old stereotypes alive and thriving about us as careless people in need of special demands. We are demanding blind people who will radically demand hour way because we are “blind people.” I am a blind person who feels that society owes us nothing.  Thank you for making me and others work harder at fixing the damage you caused.  A sudden careless action from individuals such as you will easily undo efforts of extensive leadership, education, legislation, etc.  Put yourself in the shoes of the next blind person who may decide to rent an apartment, seek employment, or just attempt to make a new friend or establish a relationship with a member of this company.  You just set the precedent that they need to be mindful of us in such a horrible context.  The next time you are told that someone is denied because they suspect discrimination of
 blindness, I want you to adequately reflect on your actions.  I hope you lose in court.  I hope they see that this is an individual acting as if they are owed something from society and not a poor blind person who is inadequate, untrained, and most importantly demanding of society to revolve around them.  Sincerely,
-Will-


--- On Fri, 8/13/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Friday, August 13, 2010, 6:53 PM
> I thought this story was interesting.
> What do you think? Is the
> lawsuit appropriate?
> 
> Arielle
> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> 
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
> By bob mims
> 
> The Salt Lake Tribune
> 
> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the
> blind man
> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he
> got a face
> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
> 
> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal
> injury
> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the
> corner of
> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
> 
> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds —
> who had been
> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind
> — got off a
> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5
> man
> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in
> front of him,
> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on
> the
> sidewalk.
> 
> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him
> to the
> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was
> allowed to grow
> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to
> detect its
> presence by use of his cane.”
> 
> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the
> ground far to
> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across
> the
> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
> 
> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and
> future medical
> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from
> alleged
> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
> 
> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner
> of the
> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake
> City Corp.
> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury
> trial; 3rd
> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
> 
> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to
> comment
> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the
> suit.
> 
> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine,
> Calif.-based
> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also
> declined to
> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and
> will look into
> it,” he said.
> 
> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not
> comment, either,
> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
> 
> 
> __._,_.___
> 
> 
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      

_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jp100%40earthlink.net



From jackson.dezman at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 20:04:18 2010
From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 15:04:18 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1><BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=KW3pOHgyAE54vAE5L=_TYfxGTeKbvQa1FRnrN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EBCA572AE33F447B8E070F2616C543C9@Dezman>

I'm inclined to agree with Kirt that this sounds like a jewel that the media 
took and ran with.

Dezman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kirt Manwaring" <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


I totally agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far.
But, allow me to go out on a limb for a second.  (sorry, I'm tired)
The suit doesn't worry me as much as the way the newspaper portrays
it.  I mean...it seems like this reporter's already pretty much just
gone and made the opening arguments for the plaintiff here.  Whatever
happened to balanced journalism?  Seriously though- all this guy's
lawyer has to do is read this article in front of the judge.  No need
to prepare any sort of argument, the reporter's pretty much summarized
(and agreed with) this guy's case.
  I'm sure there's nothing ill-intentioned about it.  The newspaper
writer probably felt quite sympathetic and wanted to help the poor,
hurt blind boy out.  Or- and this is what really scares me- social
atitudes about blind people not being able to travel independently
without getting hurt have influenced this reporter so much that he (or
maybe she, I dunno) perhaps didn't even realize the bias in the story?
 Just a thought.  Let me know if I'm being a bit overdramatic here,
but the atitude which clearly is conveyed in this article worries me
much, much more than a silly law suit ever could.

On 8/13/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this would be my
> right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't have anything 
> in
> it when using my cane.
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the day.
>> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was
>> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand in
>> front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a
>> thought.
>>
>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. The
>> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any
>> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I
>> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object, or
>> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead
>> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the
>> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the
>> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark
>> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>>
>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane 
>>> but
>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew
>>> the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do
>>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the
>>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the
>>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West
>>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>> tree
>>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,” he said.
>>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
>
>
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From jackson.dezman at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 20:06:46 2010
From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 15:06:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <20100814015908.13358.51470@web1><BFBD8AE7-2F02-4A50-9628-B7954FBD447F@gmail.com>
	<3C0C96E7-6968-470B-973A-5EB2C7079F46@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0B6146EF24FE473990449CC52437DB99@Dezman>

I don't care what anybody says, but I can garantee that none of you walk 
around with your forearm up all day.

Dezman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


I do not think that the guy should keep his hand up all day. that would look 
a bit silly to me, and isn't the goal to fit into the sighted world?

His cane could have easily missed the tree; that's understandible, but think 
about it from a scientific point of view.  Can you imagine how fast the man 
must have been w walking to have a  tree knock him down?

And why hadn't the man noticed the tree before? was this a new place? if so, 
why was he walking so fast?
On Aug 13, 2010, at 9:14 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I do. If I feel a shadow infront of me my hand goes up this would be my 
> right hand if I'm working my dog or my left hand if I don't have anything 
> in it when using my cane.
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Well, if he did that, his arm would be quite tired by the end of the day. 
>> After all, it sounds like this person didn't even know the tree was 
>> coming. In that case, is he supposed to walk around town with his hand in 
>> front of his face just in case something like this happens again? Just a 
>> thought.
>>
>> For issues like this, I use echolocation to detect overhanging items. The 
>> deaf-blind alternative would be a sonic guide or a hand guide. In any 
>> case, once I get a sense that something loarge is in front of my face, I 
>> slow down, either put my hand in front of my face to block the object, or 
>> hold my cane near verticle to get both ground coverage and overhead 
>> coverage. This generally works well enough accept in instances where the 
>> branch is so small that it would be difficult to echolocate for the 
>> average blind person. In that case, I generally prefer to wear dark 
>> glasses partially for eye protection (and for other reasons as well).
>>
>> Does anyone else have techniques on this issue they'd like to share?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane 
>>> but he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he 
>>> knew the tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do 
>>> anything because especially if the tree roots are going under the 
>>> sidewalk it would most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the 
>>> sidewalk pull out the tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West 
>>> Side of Salt Lake for five years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>>> tree
>>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,” he said.
>>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> -- 
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 20:24:44 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:24:44 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
Message-ID: <1DEE06BD2CB0449093705F71A279955C@MarcPC>

I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority of 
the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this 
story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought to 
walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims about how 
fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions about 
what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit, and 
we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going to 
set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.

Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only said 
first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.

However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the notion
that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we are
blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or not.

I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them are 
devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not be 
completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are doing 
us all harm.

1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one 
individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these sorts 
of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact that 
the person was travelling in the community independently, she might focus on 
the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might begin 
to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, or 
most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she 
reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation involved 
here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.

2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called the 
public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person and 
applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all need 
help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to 
discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what we 
judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react to 
them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our positions 
on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, I'm not 
saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much 
speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly unpredictable, 
it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of activities we 
should engage in.

3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on these 
sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why 
couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we suffer 
a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such 
conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, and 
that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they can 
comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without 
having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest 
hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, the 
more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships will 
be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.

Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most 
fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, the 
failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating 
institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as 
accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user 
having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is only 
navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has had 
training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical 
variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind, with 
little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances towards 
design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at 
first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe that 
blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern with 
NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that the 
public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, but 
they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not make us 
afraid to fight for what is right.

I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't 
really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective to 
this story that hasn't been aired fully.

Best,

Marc

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to blind
> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience to
> one/all of us or not.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>> Arielle
>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>> By bob mims
>
>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>
>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>> sidewalk.
>
>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>> presence by use of his cane.”
>
>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>
>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>> it,” he said.
>
>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>> __._,_.___
>
>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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> nabs-l:
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>



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 20:44:54 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:44:54 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Universal Design
In-Reply-To: <1DEE06BD2CB0449093705F71A279955C@MarcPC>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<1DEE06BD2CB0449093705F71A279955C@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <539E2628DEA44E47B1724FE7C42B569B@Rufus>

Marc,

Can you elaborate a little more on this idea of universal design?  You've
mentioned it briefly in several of your previous posts, but I must confess I
do not fully understand what it is or how it would work.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 21:11:48 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 17:11:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Bookshare Plug
Message-ID: <0E3CB9AD5F5A4671B773CB10D446338A@Rufus>

Dear all,

A couple months ago I inquired about Bookshare and whether it or not it was
a good service worth fifty bucks to resubscribe.  My main concern was not so
much the money as much the quality of the Braille.  I've now been using the
site for a little over a month, and I must say Bookshare's come a long way.
I've found books I never thought they would carry, and the quality of the
Braille is very, very satisfactory.  I can count the number of times I've
encountered errors in the text.  I mostly resubscribed to enjoy books on a
Braille notetaker, but it's excellent to be able to read using JAWS using FS
Reader on my PC.  Anyway, I don't gain anything from promoting Bookshare,
but I like making recommendations if I can personally testify to the
excellence of the service.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 21:18:18 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:18:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <1DEE06BD2CB0449093705F71A279955C@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <380451.21563.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

All good points but I especially like your objection two and I agree with Mark that filing a lawsuit will set a bad precedent. Unfortunately a big battle that blind people have to fight is the false proseption that society holds and even though law suits is sometimes necessary, but unfortunately it presents a fear to the sighted world when dealing with a blind person. Growing up I would spend my holidays in Chicago with my uncle and his family. My uncle based on news reports of families getting in trouble with law enforcement for leaving their disabled child home alone and something happening. This caused him not to leave me alone at home and mostly because he took a insident and totally exploited it without carefully researching the insidents where the families got in trouble for leaving their disabled child at home. These insidents even though may have some marrit but do not serve usas blind people well. I do not think this tree insident would have
 made a difference even if the person was sighted.
Anmol 

I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Sat, 8/14/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 3:24 PM
> I'm not very surprised, but
> nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority of the responses
> to this article.  Based on one reporters account of
> this story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that
> blind people ought to walk around holding one arm in the
> air, we have unjustified claims about how fast the person
> must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions about
> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a
> law suit, and we have highly speculative claims about how
> this one incident is going to set every confident,
> independent blind person back 20 years.
> 
> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi;
> she only said first, and with brevity and clarity, what many
> others said afterwards.
> 
> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would
> reaify the notion
> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind
> people because we are
> blind; the public may take this incident > and
> generalize it to all
> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to
> one/all of us or not.
> 
> I would raise three objections to this line of
> thinking.  None of them are devastating, but, taken
> together, I think there is good reason to not be completely
> convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are
> doing us all harm.
> 
> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict
> how any one individual, let alone the so called public, is
> going to react to these sorts of stories.  Someone
> reading the story might respond more to the fact that the
> person was travelling in the community independently, she
> might focus on the person's willingness to stand up for what
> he believes, she might begin to think about her own front
> yard tree with its low hanging branches, or most likely in
> my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of
> speculation involved here, and we should be cautious in the
> face of so much speculation.
> 
> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this
> thing called the public, and the public generalizes from the
> experience of one person and applies it to all of us blind
> people.  The public believes that we all need help
> getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this
> leads to discrimination and unemployment.  Should we
> base our positions on what we judge to be right, or should
> we base them on how the public will react to them? Probably
> the response will be to say that we should base our
> positions on both what we think is right and how the public
> will react.  Fine, I'm not saying we should ignore
> public reaction, but in the face of so much speculation, see
> objection 1, where public reaction is highly unpredictable,
> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort
> of activities we should engage in.
> 
> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions
> based on these sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that
> people can't be educated.  Why couldn't it be the case
> that by fighting to remove these barriers, we suffer a
> short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease
> of such conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out
> in the community, and that's how you will change
> attitudes.  The more people that feel they can
> comfortably and independently travel throughout the
> community, without having first spent 8 months intensively
> studying the latest hand-in-front-of-face technique for
> detecting over-hanging obsticles, the more people you will
> have out in the community, the more relationships will be
> developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
> 
> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two
> of the most fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies
> are misguided.  First, the failure to promote universal
> design.  Universal design means creating institutions,
> products, processes, services, and so on that are as
> accessible as possible to the widest number of people,
> without the user having to possess special equipment or
> training.  If environment A is only navigable by some
> blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has had
> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling
> physical variations, and environment B is navigable by
> someone recently blind, with little training, and with a bad
> hip, then we should adopt stances towards design that bring
> us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at
> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to
> believe that blindness equals incompetence, but this leads
> me to my second concern with NFB policy: there is far too
> much concern with the variety of ways that the public might
> think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter,
> but they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and
> should not make us afraid to fight for what is right.
> 
> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now,
> and I don't really expect to change anyone's mind, but there
> is another perspective to this story that hasn't been aired
> fully.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Marc
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over
> run-in with tree
> 
> 
> > The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone,
> particularly tall
> > people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who
> don't use guide
> > dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation
> are going to miss
> > those overhead branches. However, suing could set a
> bad precedent as it
> > would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are
> hazardous to blind
> > people because we are blind; the public may take this
> incident and
> > generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really
> an inconvenience to
> > one/all of us or not.
> > 
> > Respectfully,
> > Jedi
> > 
> > Original message:
> >> I thought this story was interesting. What do you
> think? Is the
> >> lawsuit appropriate?
> > 
> >> Arielle
> >> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
> tree
> > 
> >> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
> >> By bob mims
> > 
> >> The Salt Lake Tribune
> > 
> >> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
> >> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead,
> as the blind man
> >> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last
> year, he got a face
> >> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
> > 
> >> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a
> personal injury
> >> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel
> at the corner of
> >> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
> > 
> >> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009,
> Reynolds — who had been
> >> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the
> Blind — got off a
> >> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the
> 6-foot-5 man
> >> navigated toward the entrance with his cane
> swinging in front of him,
> >> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had
> encroached on the
> >> sidewalk.
> > 
> >> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and
> knocked him to the
> >> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The
> tree was allowed to grow
> >> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr.
> Reynolds to detect its
> >> presence by use of his cane.”
> > 
> >> The suit argues that because the tree was
> “rooted in the ground far to
> >> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown]
> diagonally across the
> >> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
> > 
> >> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past
> and future medical
> >> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering
> stemming from alleged
> >> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
> > 
> >> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan,
> the owner of the
> >> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names
> Salt Lake City Corp.
> >> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a
> jury trial; 3rd
> >> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the
> case.
> > 
> >> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises
> declined to comment
> >> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with
> the suit.
> > 
> >> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for
> Irvine, Calif.-based
> >> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel,
> also declined to
> >> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this
> lawsuit and will look into
> >> it,” he said.
> > 
> >> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would
> not comment, either,
> >> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
> > 
> > 
> >> __._,_.___
> > 
> > 
> >> --
> >> Arielle Silverman
> >> President, National Association of Blind Students
> >> Phone:  602-502-2255
> >> Email:
> >> nabs.president at gmail.com
> >> Website:
> >> www.nabslink.org
> > 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
> > 
> > -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile
> Network.  Visit
> > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility
> anywhere.
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
> > nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 21:22:17 2010
From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 16:22:17 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <mailman.38.1281805207.7843.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.38.1281805207.7843.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <000601cb3bf6$c681f3b0$5385db10$@com>

Thank you Dennis!

You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.

If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury, he has a case. A
sighted person could sue in the circumstances described where the branch is
not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is foreseeable, and
somebody was negligent.

A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:

The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my face is
ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but it certainly isn't
a requirement of safe travel.

Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas seems reasonable. I
do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution indicates that I have
subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area, it is certainly
easier to navigate it more quickly.

Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but neither should a
blind person graduating from a university, and I see that kind of thing
written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a story more
interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it, just saying it's
so.





From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 21:27:20 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 15:27:20 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <1DEE06BD2CB0449093705F71A279955C@MarcPC>
References: <20100814013056.9506.34073@web2>
	<1DEE06BD2CB0449093705F71A279955C@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinPEg6EW2uo1k=m3OKNxQ64wmaxaZuyLDE2k=gw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I think I underestimated how evocative this incident is and how many
different things it causes us to think about. I have a few comments:

First, regarding technique, I don't think anyone travels with their
arm up all the time. I will, however, put my arm up briefly if I
suspect an impending head-level obstacle, either because of what I
hear from echolocation or if I am on a familiar route where I remember
their being a head-level obstacle. Also, if this tall man had been
sighted, he probably would have ducked his head to go under the tree
upon seeing it. If he had perceived the tree with echolocation, he
could have ducked under it as well. I think it's possible, although we
don't know for sure, that the man's personal injuries were exaggerated
(i.e. he might have had neck problems to begin with, which were
exacerbated by the crash into the tree).

I don't worry too much about how cases like this will affect attitudes
of the general public or "Joe sightee" because I think most sighted
people's views about blindness are not that easily pushed around, and
the vast majority of random sighted folks don't exert a huge influence
on our lives. I am, however, concerned about how this incident will
play on the fears and misunderstandings that parents of blind children
and blindness professionals (i.e. O&M instructors, TVI's, rehab
counselors, etc.) have about dangers faced by blind travelers. I
originally saw this story posted on another list primarily made up of
mothers (and some fathers) of blind children. In response to the
stories, several listers commented about how worried they were about
their children traveling on routes with overgrown trees, etc. and one
mom who also teaches O&M talked about having to call the city and
complain about bushes obstructing her students' paths. Through my
years in the NFB and as I reflect on my own formative experiences as a
blind person, I am reaching the unfortunate conclusion that misguided
help from well-meaning, but misunderstanding, blindness professionals
is one of the biggest obstacles we face toward integration (not just
employment, but full social integration). I won't go into all the
details now, but when I was in Louisiana I felt like most of what I
was doing was struggling to break bad habits that had been ingrained
in me by my parents and teachers (mainly travel instructors) who
taught me that everyday travel situations, such as parking lots or
parallel traffic, were dangerous and should be avoided. It was only
after un-learning these bad habits and letting go of those fears that
I could become a safe and confident independent traveler, and I am
still not where I could be had I grown up learning to travel without
excessive fear from the beginning. I worry that cases like these will
make parents and travel teachers even more wary about enabling blind
students to acquire and develop solid travel skills.

Arielle

On 8/14/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority of
> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this
> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought to
> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims about how
> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions about
> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit, and
> we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going to
> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.
>
> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only said
> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.
>
> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the notion
> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we are
> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>
> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them are
> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not be
> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are doing
> us all harm.
>
> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these sorts
> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact that
> the person was travelling in the community independently, she might focus on
> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might begin
> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, or
> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation involved
> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.
>
> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called the
> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person and
> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all need
> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what we
> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react to
> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our positions
> on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, I'm not
> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly unpredictable,
> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of activities we
> should engage in.
>
> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on these
> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why
> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we suffer
> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, and
> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they can
> comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without
> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, the
> more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships will
> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
>
> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most
> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, the
> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user
> having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is only
> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has had
> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind, with
> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances towards
> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at
> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe that
> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern with
> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that the
> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, but
> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not make us
> afraid to fight for what is right.
>
> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't
> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective to
> this story that hasn't been aired fully.
>
> Best,
>
> Marc
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to blind
>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience to
>> one/all of us or not.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>> Arielle
>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>> By bob mims
>>
>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>
>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>
>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>> it,” he said.
>>
>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 14 21:29:02 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:29:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <000601cb3bf6$c681f3b0$5385db10$@com>
Message-ID: <730547.71055.qm@web53801.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Good points Sean!
To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the branch from hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the branches are hanging out so does this mean we should walk around with our hand in frunt at all times?
Anmol


--- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
> Thank you Dennis!
> 
> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
> 
> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
> he has a case. A
> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
> where the branch is
> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
> foreseeable, and
> somebody was negligent.
> 
> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:
> 
> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
> face is
> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
> it certainly isn't
> a requirement of safe travel.
> 
> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
> seems reasonable. I
> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
> indicates that I have
> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
> it is certainly
> easier to navigate it more quickly.
> 
> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
> neither should a
> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
> kind of thing
> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
> story more
> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
> just saying it's
> so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Aug 14 21:49:52 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 17:49:52 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] I think this point is importent for cross-posting:
 Re:	Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
Message-ID: <20100814214952.13077.45992@web2>

Will,

While it's important to be aware of how our individual actions and 
reactions affect the larger blindness community, it's equally important 
that we don't force blind individuals to be responsible for upkeeping a 
certain image of the entire blindness community. I think there's a lot 
we don't know about this case, and how the reporter wrote about the 
incident will definitely affect how we process the events mentally. The 
man may not have been knocked down at all. For that matter, he may have 
some other reason to sue and blindness just got in the middle somehow.

Some thoughts cross my mind at this point. The first is that victim 
blaming is not a good idea. Even if this person is using blindness to 
their advantage in a way that deminishes our work and increases the 
validity of stereotypes, we have to look at the systems of discourse 
that control his actions, the actions of the court, how the public 
interprets the event in the context of civil law and blindness, and how 
we interpret this event in the same contexts. In other words, this 
blind man may believe that he is entitled to certain demands because 
he's blind and thereby less able than his sighted counterparts. What 
events, people, places, ideas, and philosophies might have helped him 
to develop his beliefs? On the same line, what events, people, places, 
ideas, and philosophies have shaped our beliefs as a group and as 
individuals? Personally, I think the whole system of blindness 
discourse is at fault here, not the individual blind person in 
question. As to the incident itself, there's no good reason why a 
public establishment shouldn't maintain the surrounding grounds 
regardless of whomever should traverse them. In that sense, the 
accident is their fault because it could really have been anyone.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> I want to cross post because this topic infuriates me.
> Stories like this make me want to say the following to the individual 
> who sued or who is planning to sue because of a tree near a sidewalk:
> Dear sir/madam, I would like to thank you for reinventing the wheel of 
> negativity towards the blind as well as keeping old stereotypes alive 
> and thriving about us as careless people in need of special demands. We 
> are demanding blind people who will radically demand hour way because 
> we are “blind people.” I am a blind person who feels that society owes 
> us nothing.  Thank you for making me and others work harder at fixing 
> the damage you caused.  A sudden careless action from individuals such 
> as you will easily undo efforts of extensive leadership, education, 
> legislation, etc.  Put yourself in the shoes of the next blind person 
> who may decide to rent an apartment, seek employment, or just attempt 
> to make a new friend or establish a relationship with a member of this 
> company.  You just set the precedent that they need to be mindful of us 
> in such a horrible context.  The next time you are told that someone is 
> denied because they suspect discrimination of
>  blindness, I want you to adequately reflect on your actions.  I hope 
> you lose in court.  I hope they see that this is an individual acting 
> as if they are owed something from society and not a poor blind person 
> who is inadequate, untrained, and most importantly demanding of society 
> to revolve around them.  Sincerely,
> -Will-


> --- On Fri, 8/13/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:

>> From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, August 13, 2010, 6:53 PM
>> I thought this story was interesting.
>> What do you think? Is the
>> lawsuit appropriate?

>> Arielle
>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>> By bob mims

>> The Salt Lake Tribune

>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the
>> blind man
>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he
>> got a face
>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.

>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal
>> injury
>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the
>> corner of
>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.

>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds —
>> who had been
>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind
>> — got off a
>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5
>> man
>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in
>> front of him,
>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on
>> the
>> sidewalk.

>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him
>> to the
>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was
>> allowed to grow
>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to
>> detect its
>> presence by use of his cane.”

>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the
>> ground far to
>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across
>> the
>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”

>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and
>> future medical
>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from
>> alleged
>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.

>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner
>> of the
>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake
>> City Corp.
>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury
>> trial; 3rd
>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.

>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to
>> comment
>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the
>> suit.

>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine,
>> Calif.-based
>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also
>> declined to
>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and
>> will look into
>> it,” he said.

>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not
>> comment, either,
>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.


>> __._,_.___


>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com





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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Aug 14 22:04:12 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:04:12 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
Message-ID: <20100814220412.23909.41575@web1>

Marc,

I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I was 
trying to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true that 
bringing attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in 
fact solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been 
blind a while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been 
hiding under a rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public 
tends to view us through their own speculations of what their lives 
might be like if they were blinded immediately without realizing that 
they have considerable gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I 
also said is that the tree could have served as a legitimate obstacle 
for this particular blind man. Though I didn't say it directly, what I 
meant is that perhaps he does have a cause to seek remedy even if a 
lawsuit may not be the best way to handle things. In my opinion, this 
incident is much like the woman who spilled hot coffee in her lap and 
sued McDonnald's.

Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or 
at least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with 
universal design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people 
to look incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB 
does support (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about 
creating a universal design that honors the capacities of blind people 
while meeting our accessibility needs rather than creating a design 
that assumes that we have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority of
> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this
> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought to
> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims about how
> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions about
> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit, and
> we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going to
> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.

> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only said
> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.

> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the notion
> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we are
> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or not.

> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them are
> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not be
> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are doing
> us all harm.

> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these sorts
> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact that
> the person was travelling in the community independently, she might focus on
> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might begin
> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, or
> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation involved
> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.

> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called the
> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person and
> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all need
> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what we
> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react to
> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our positions
> on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, I'm not
> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly unpredictable,
> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of activities we
> should engage in.

> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on these
> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why
> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we suffer
> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, and
> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they can
> comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without
> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, the
> more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships will
> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.

> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most
> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, the
> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user
> having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is only
> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has had
> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind, with
> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances towards
> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at
> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe that
> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern with
> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that the
> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, but
> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not make us
> afraid to fight for what is right.

> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't
> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective to
> this story that hasn't been aired fully.

> Best,

> Marc

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to blind
>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience to
>> one/all of us or not.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> Original message:
>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>> lawsuit appropriate?

>>> Arielle
>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>> By bob mims

>>> The Salt Lake Tribune

>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.

>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.

>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>> sidewalk.

>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>> presence by use of his cane.”

>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”

>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.

>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.

>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.

>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>> it,” he said.

>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.


>>> __._,_.___


>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

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From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Sat Aug 14 22:13:48 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:13:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <730547.71055.qm@web53801.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <677357AF557A4FD4901A189902404D3D@Ashley>

Hi Anmol and all,
No don't place your hand in front at all times, but yes I think its 
reasonable to place an arm up or something to protect you when you are 
coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You can perceive this through 
echolocation or if its familiar you remember the overhanging obstacle.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> Good points Sean!
> To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the branch from 
> hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the branches are 
> hanging out so does this mean we should walk around with our hand in frunt 
> at all times?
> Anmol
>
>
> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>> tree
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
>> Thank you Dennis!
>>
>> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
>>
>> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
>> he has a case. A
>> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
>> where the branch is
>> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
>> foreseeable, and
>> somebody was negligent.
>>
>> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:
>>
>> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
>> face is
>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
>> it certainly isn't
>> a requirement of safe travel.
>>
>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
>> seems reasonable. I
>> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
>> indicates that I have
>> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
>> it is certainly
>> easier to navigate it more quickly.
>>
>> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
>> neither should a
>> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
>> kind of thing
>> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
>> story more
>> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
>> just saying it's
>> so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 



From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Sat Aug 14 22:18:11 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:18:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <677357AF557A4FD4901A189902404D3D@Ashley>
References: <730547.71055.qm@web53801.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<677357AF557A4FD4901A189902404D3D@Ashley>
Message-ID: <20100814181811.xmlfiqbc2s4gcs8o@webmail.utoronto.ca>

Hi all,
A few people have mentioned echolocation. I've seen youtube videos of  
it, but how do you all use it?
Just curious,
Sarah


Quoting Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>:

> Hi Anmol and all,
> No don't place your hand in front at all times, but yes I think its
> reasonable to place an arm up or something to protect you when you are
> coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You can perceive this through
> echolocation or if its familiar you remember the overhanging obstacle.
>
> Ashley
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
>> Good points Sean!
>> To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the branch   
>> from hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the   
>> branches are hanging out so does this mean we should walk around   
>> with our hand in frunt at all times?
>> Anmol
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
>>> Thank you Dennis!
>>>
>>> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
>>>
>>> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
>>> he has a case. A
>>> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
>>> where the branch is
>>> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
>>> foreseeable, and
>>> somebody was negligent.
>>>
>>> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:
>>>
>>> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
>>> face is
>>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
>>> it certainly isn't
>>> a requirement of safe travel.
>>>
>>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
>>> seems reasonable. I
>>> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
>>> indicates that I have
>>> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
>>> it is certainly
>>> easier to navigate it more quickly.
>>>
>>> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
>>> neither should a
>>> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
>>> kind of thing
>>> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
>>> story more
>>> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
>>> just saying it's
>>> so.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> for nabs-l:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca





From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 22:51:56 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:51:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <677357AF557A4FD4901A189902404D3D@Ashley>
References: <730547.71055.qm@web53801.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<677357AF557A4FD4901A189902404D3D@Ashley>
Message-ID: <DF2F174DB2394D999D0CE985F1A91A7C@Rufus>

No need for this holding out your hand nonsense.  I mean, just wave your
cane in the eyer, and wave it all around like you just don't cayer...Oh,
don't mind me.  I'm working on a Saturday and needed some dry amusement.
No, it does not take much to entertain me...

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 6:14 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with tree

Hi Anmol and all,
No don't place your hand in front at all times, but yes I think its 
reasonable to place an arm up or something to protect you when you are 
coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You can perceive this through 
echolocation or if its familiar you remember the overhanging obstacle.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with tree


> Good points Sean!
> To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the 
branch from 
> hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the branches are 
> hanging out so does this mean we should walk around with our 
hand in frunt 
> at all times?
> Anmol
>
>
> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with 
>> tree
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
>> Thank you Dennis!
>>
>> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
>>
>> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
>> he has a case. A
>> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
>> where the branch is
>> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
>> foreseeable, and
>> somebody was negligent.
>>
>> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:
>>
>> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
>> face is
>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
>> it certainly isn't
>> a requirement of safe travel.
>>
>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
>> seems reasonable. I
>> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
>> indicates that I have
>> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
>> it is certainly
>> easier to navigate it more quickly.
>>
>> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
>> neither should a
>> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
>> kind of thing
>> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
>> story more
>> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
>> just saying it's
>> so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbh
atia%40yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworm
ahb%40earthlink.net
> 


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 05:15:09 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 01:15:09 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com><3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus><AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>

The problem with forcing this school to accept you as a trainer is after you 
go threw the involved process of forcing them not to discriminate against 
you. After you do this, there is a million ways that they can make you feel 
unwelcomed. They could take the attitude that if they have to have you, they 
don't have to like you. It mite be better to find a program that is more 
enthusiastic about accepting you, go work with them, and let your actions 
speak for themselves.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


> Hello Val annd all!
> I agree to fight this.  I also agree with contacting the NFB
> Headquarters.  I think they and the Department of Justice will show
> the school you are having problems with just what equality is.  If you
> want to be a dog trainer Val I say nothing should stop you from
> accomplishing that goal.
>
> Justin
>
> On 8/13/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a blind O and M instructor here at CCB, and she's the best.
>> This goes to show that blind O and M instructors don't have to see.  I
>> have to do things differently with this lady, but she's really cool.
>> I like her a lot.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 8/13/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
>>> do so would mean that they win and that blind people will continue to
>>> be left out of their program and they will continue to have
>>> discriminatory practices.
>>>
>>> Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
>>> discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual impairment
>>> is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
>>> discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest contacting
>>> NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
>>> school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
>>> to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
>>> to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to the blind and
>>> have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
>>> using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
>>> be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.
>>>
>>> I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
>>> argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
>>> obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
>>> misconceptions of the worst kind.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>>
>>> On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought
>>>> they
>>>> were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind 
>>>> instructors
>>>> on
>>>> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going with
>>>> the
>>>> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
>>>> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come 
>>>> out
>>>> of
>>>> that organization.
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>>
>>>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
>>>> start by giving a brief intro.
>>>>
>>>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
>>>> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
>>>> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
>>>> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
>>>> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
>>>> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
>>>> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
>>>> of 150 feet.
>>>>
>>>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
>>>> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>>>> Valerie,
>>>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>>>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
>>>> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
>>>> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
>>>> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
>>>> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Deborah
>>>>
>>>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
>>>> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>>>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>>>>
>>>> Val
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 14 23:13:37 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:13:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com><3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus><AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS20107B45A2125487B0EC038B990@phx.gbl>


Yes this is a good idea but while going to another program fight the school 
at the same time to allow future students to go there.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 1:15 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

> The problem with forcing this school to accept you as a trainer is after 
> you go threw the involved process of forcing them not to discriminate 
> against you. After you do this, there is a million ways that they can make 
> you feel unwelcomed. They could take the attitude that if they have to 
> have you, they don't have to like you. It mite be better to find a program 
> that is more enthusiastic about accepting you, go work with them, and let 
> your actions speak for themselves.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
>> Hello Val annd all!
>> I agree to fight this.  I also agree with contacting the NFB
>> Headquarters.  I think they and the Department of Justice will show
>> the school you are having problems with just what equality is.  If you
>> want to be a dog trainer Val I say nothing should stop you from
>> accomplishing that goal.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>> On 8/13/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have a blind O and M instructor here at CCB, and she's the best.
>>> This goes to show that blind O and M instructors don't have to see.  I
>>> have to do things differently with this lady, but she's really cool.
>>> I like her a lot.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 8/13/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I actually don't think you should cut your losses on this school. To
>>>> do so would mean that they win and that blind people will continue to
>>>> be left out of their program and they will continue to have
>>>> discriminatory practices.
>>>>
>>>> Federal law trumps California law any day. The ADA tells us that
>>>> discrimination cannot be made based on a disability. Visual impairment
>>>> is, of course, a disability in today's society, so this is
>>>> discrimination based on disability. I would highly suggest contacting
>>>> NFB corporate headquarters for advice on how to go about suing this
>>>> school, because I think you should. If you don't, they will continue
>>>> to exclude people who have a visual impairment. The NFB is dedicated
>>>> to making schools, companies, and programs accessible to the blind and
>>>> have helped other students (such as the suing of Arizona State for
>>>> using an inaccessible e-text device, the Amazon Kindle). They should
>>>> be able to help or point you in the right direction at least.
>>>>
>>>> I would not give up on this! As others said, this is just like the
>>>> argument against blind O&M instructors not being able to see
>>>> obstacles, traffic, and the student. It is discrimintation and
>>>> misconceptions of the worst kind.
>>>>
>>>> ~Jewel
>>>>
>>>> On 8/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Have you contacted someone at the Guide Dogs for the Blind?  I thought
>>>>> they
>>>>> were among one of the first schools to experiment with blind 
>>>>> instructors
>>>>> on
>>>>> their campus, but I could be wrong.  For this issue, I think going 
>>>>> with
>>>>> the
>>>>> ACB's guide dog division would be a good idea.  I don't like directly
>>>>> pitting one group over the other, but I've seen some good things come 
>>>>> out
>>>>> of
>>>>> that organization.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:17 AM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone hasnt' followed up on what i'm trying to do, i'll
>>>>> start by giving a brief intro.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm tryingto get into a program that would allow me to become a
>>>>> dog trainer The school is based on California, but students can
>>>>> work from home with the aid of a teacher and people in the
>>>>> area.  I guess it's like a distance learning program.  I would
>>>>> not know however as they will not send me imformation or allow
>>>>> me to enroll inthe program as they said i do not meet their
>>>>> physical requirements.  That is, i do not have a vusual equity
>>>>> of 150 feet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was suggested to email back and ask in what way this
>>>>> requirement would be needed.  Here's the email i got:
>>>>> Valerie,
>>>>> Unfortunately, ABC is unable to make exceptions to the physical
>>>>> requirements necessary to enter the program. They have been set
>>>>> by the state of California to keep you safe while you are in
>>>>> the program. You would be training dogs in group sessions or in
>>>>> a clients home and it would be imperative that you be able to
>>>>> see dogs approaching you that may be aggressive or confrontational.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Deborah
>>>>>
>>>>> If anyone has any imformation on how i could fight this, or if
>>>>> i should just call it a loss, please let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you so much for your responces to my last email.
>>>>> Look forward to hearing from you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Val
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>> info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ~Jewel
>>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 23:28:30 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:28:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
Message-ID: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!!

I have some more questions!

First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has a Seko
watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in the NFB
Independence market. She told me that they have stopped making this
kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the independence
market there were like three different ones ranging in price from $45
to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in the Quartz
brand...so I was wondering what the differences between different
braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that is still
being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at convention and
she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in that area.

How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been told when
the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a free white
cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already on it. I
bought five tips during convention and have been told how to put them
on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my tip is
scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting to
stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels more rough
somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing down? If
so, how much should you let it wear down before changing it?

Also I want to make sure I know how to change properly...you basically
twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the new tip on
you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is that right?
Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else I should
know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto the cane
easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the new tip on,
do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want to make
sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on lol!

A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting lost, and
going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try going to the
dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the open
driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and go straight.
I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting either a
gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped me to the
trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong side), and I
just had them guide me back to my building but I want to try it again
and to improve so had some questions. First, is there anything more I
could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane and walked
faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was. I've read
that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person from veering
to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your arc by
standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to side making
sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read that it
needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my doorjamb and
tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I put my cane
in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried tapping in front
of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my arc became
much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of strain...like it felt
as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural somehow...Is
this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I am asking
these questions is because the more practice I get with my cane, the
better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there anything
else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?

Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much practice with a
cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I can get,
when going out when should I take an arm and when should I use the
cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and I've been
told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training what's up to me
isn't always the best because I need practice, practice, practice. I
know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to talk to
someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably better but
other than those situations should I be using the cane on my own? Ever
since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my cane on
the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me gain
confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is it hard from
the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside them? The
main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want to put the
sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate them...

Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the dumpster,and I end
up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help, should I
either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use my cane or
let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because too many
times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When someone
assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the next time I
have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At convention, by
the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which direction to go
because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I have a very
hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on my own.

I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I think once
you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so this kind
of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting out...I need
practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or just
leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I don't want
to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation. But, if I am
guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!

The few times I have used my cane on my own and either gotten
directions, or followed someone, I have done very very well. It gives
me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane more, and
makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my apartment
complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the pool. My
parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool sometimes. They
called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my own. My
parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the gate at a
picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers fiancae
just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on my left
side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they were
sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told him just
like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the way across
the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had been guided.

I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know I've rambled a
bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying to ask and
why I am asking these questions!

Thanks so much!
Kerri


From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sat Aug 14 23:33:58 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 17:33:58 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100814220412.23909.41575@web1>
References: <20100814220412.23909.41575@web1>
Message-ID: <16453DF861544BDA970B78DCF7BC5393@MarcPC>

Jedi,

I prefaced my comment by saying that it was not directed at you.  I wasn't 
objecting to what you said so much as the idea contained in the couple of 
sentences I quoted from you, and idea that was contained within the comments 
of many others.

Regarding what you say about universal design, that the NFB is "about 
creating a universal design that honors the capacities of blind people while 
meeting our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that assumes 
that we have more needs than we really do", this strikes me as a problematic 
way of understanding universal design.  The question I would ask is: 
capacities and needs of which blind people?

The problem is that blind people, like all people, have a tremendous amount 
of variation in the capacities they possess.  A blind person that is 
otherwise able-bodied, who has been blind for a long period of time, who has 
received a lot of training, who is intelligent, confident, and so on is 
going to have a different set of capacities than the person who is newly 
blind, has had little training, has mobility difficulties, and is hard of 
hearing on top of it, and considering how many lose their vision in old age, 
don't think this picture is that out of the ordinary.

So, who do we look at when we are fighting for universal design that honours 
the capacities of blind people without exaggerating their needs? Do we look 
at the capacities of the members of this list, or do we look at the 
capacities of blind seniors?

The problem I see with your understanding of universal design is that it 
isn't really universal.  For it to be universal, you can't limit its 
application to a group of people that possess a certain set of capacities 
and needs.

Responding to Joe who asked for more specifics on universal design, I 
understand it as a guiding principle, and ideal towards which we struggle 
without actually attaining it, something like equality, freedom, or justice. 
Basically, as I stated, you design institutions, products, processes, 
services and so on so that they are as accessible as possible to the 
greatest number of people with the greatest variation in abilities.  One 
slightly more concrete way of thinking about this is that it involves 
providing access to information in multiple ways.  So at a controlled 
intersection, the changing of the light is information that is only 
presented visually.  Universal design would promote the inclusion of an 
audible and even a tactile signal that conveys the visual information in 
alternative ways.  We obviously will never make everything completely 
accessible to everyone, but that is what makes it an ideal.  It's something 
towards which we ought to strive.

When things are universally designed, they include features that many many 
people will not actually make use of.  A large number of blind people may 
not need an audible signal, but some of course will, at the very least, find 
one very useful.  And the concern seems to be that people will assume that 
because some blind people have difficulty getting around without adapting 
the environment somewhat, then all blind people must need these adaptations, 
and then this leads to negative attitudes, discrimination, unemployment and 
so on.  For my objections to this line of argument, see my last post.

In closing, I want to leave you with a quote from Jacobus tenBroek, a fellow 
Albertan I might add.  It suggests to me that tenBroek would support the 
fight against unnecessary obsticles that prevent us from travelling in the 
manner in which we choose, including the issue that sparked this debate.  I 
also think it's a nod towards universal design, the kind that's actually 
universal.

tenBroek writes: “No courts have held or even darkly hinted that a blind man 
may rise in the morning, help get the children off to school, bid his wife 
goodbye,and proceed along the streets and bus lines to his daily work, 
without dog, cane, or guide, if such is his habit or preference, now and 
then brushing a tree or kicking a curb,but, notwithstanding, proceeding with 
firm step and sure air, knowing that he is part of the public for whom the 
streets are built and maintained in reasonable safety, by the help of his 
taxes, and that he shares with others this part of the world in which he, 
too,has a right to live” (1966, 867–68).

tenBroek, Jacobus. 1966. The right to live in the world: The disabled in the 
law of torts.California Law Review 54: 841–919.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> Marc,
>
> I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I was trying 
> to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true that bringing 
> attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in fact 
> solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been blind a 
> while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been hiding under a 
> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public tends to view us 
> through their own speculations of what their lives might be like if they 
> were blinded immediately without realizing that they have considerable 
> gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I also said is that the tree 
> could have served as a legitimate obstacle for this particular blind man. 
> Though I didn't say it directly, what I meant is that perhaps he does have 
> a cause to seek remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best way to handle 
> things. In my opinion, this incident is much like the woman who spilled 
> hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonnald's.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or at 
> least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with universal 
> design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people to look 
> incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB does support 
> (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about creating a 
> universal design that honors the capacities of blind people while meeting 
> our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that assumes that we 
> have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority 
>> of
>> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this
>> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought to
>> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims about 
>> how
>> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions 
>> about
>> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit, 
>> and
>> we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going to
>> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.
>
>> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only said
>> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.
>
>> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the notion
>> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we are
>> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
>> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or 
>> not.
>
>> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them 
>> are
>> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not be
>> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are 
>> doing
>> us all harm.
>
>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
>> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these 
>> sorts
>> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact 
>> that
>> the person was travelling in the community independently, she might focus 
>> on
>> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might 
>> begin
>> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, or
>> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
>> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation 
>> involved
>> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.
>
>> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called 
>> the
>> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person and
>> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all 
>> need
>> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
>> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what we
>> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react to
>> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our 
>> positions
>> on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, I'm 
>> not
>> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
>> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly 
>> unpredictable,
>> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of activities 
>> we
>> should engage in.
>
>> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on these
>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why
>> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we 
>> suffer
>> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
>> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, and
>> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they can
>> comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without
>> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
>> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, the
>> more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships 
>> will
>> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
>
>> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most
>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, the
>> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
>> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
>> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user
>> having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is 
>> only
>> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has 
>> had
>> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
>> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind, 
>> with
>> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances towards
>> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at
>> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe that
>> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern 
>> with
>> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that 
>> the
>> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, but
>> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not make 
>> us
>> afraid to fight for what is right.
>
>> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't
>> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective 
>> to
>> this story that hasn't been aired fully.
>
>> Best,
>
>> Marc
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>> tree
>
>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to 
>>> blind
>>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience 
>>> to
>>> one/all of us or not.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>
>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,” he said.
>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>>>> __._,_.___
>
>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
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>
>>> --
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>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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>
>
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> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> _______________________________________________
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sun Aug 15 00:10:07 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:10:07 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
Message-ID: <20100815001007.1721.15922@web1>

Marc,

The way to create a universal design honoring all blind people is to 
not only look at the varying capacities of bdifferent blind people, but 
to also consider the systems into which these capacities are imbedded 
and from which they are born. In so doing, we are more able to piece 
out the difference between a real need versus a perceived need. 
Universal design doesn't necessarily mean that every piece of (for 
example) visual information be conveyed non-visually. What it does mean 
is that blind people, no matter how it's done, have access to whatever 
a sighted person has access to in such a way that the access is 
convenient, cost-effective, built in, and meets the needs of most 
people.  Universal design doesn't have to be restricted to how products 
and services are created and maintained. Sometimes, it's about changing 
the surrounding systems  such that there are no ideologies placing 
beings into some kind of higherarchy. As it stands, sighted people 
still are considered more able than us. In order to create a universal 
design system debunking that assumption, we have to question why and 
how we've come to believe the inherent inability of blind people in 
comparison to the sighted in the first place, as well as how we (the 
blind and the sighted) perpetuate it.

This is really tough stuff to communicate via e-mail, but I can tell 
you now that universal design is not as simple as creating and 
sustaining certain kinds of accessibility. I think the NFB understands 
that, and that's why our philosophy sometimes seems to contradict 
universal design in the first place. Am i making any sense at all? 
Probably not, but it was worth a try.

Respectfully,
Jedi

-Original Message-
> Jedi,

> I prefaced my comment by saying that it was not directed at you.  I wasn't
> objecting to what you said so much as the idea contained in the couple of
> sentences I quoted from you, and idea that was contained within the comments
> of many others.

> Regarding what you say about universal design, that the NFB is "about
> creating a universal design that honors the capacities of blind people while
> meeting our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that assumes
> that we have more needs than we really do", this strikes me as a problematic
> way of understanding universal design.  The question I would ask is:
> capacities and needs of which blind people?

> The problem is that blind people, like all people, have a tremendous amount
> of variation in the capacities they possess.  A blind person that is
> otherwise able-bodied, who has been blind for a long period of time, who has
> received a lot of training, who is intelligent, confident, and so on is
> going to have a different set of capacities than the person who is newly
> blind, has had little training, has mobility difficulties, and is hard of
> hearing on top of it, and considering how many lose their vision in old age,
> don't think this picture is that out of the ordinary.

> So, who do we look at when we are fighting for universal design that honours
> the capacities of blind people without exaggerating their needs? Do we look
> at the capacities of the members of this list, or do we look at the
> capacities of blind seniors?

> The problem I see with your understanding of universal design is that it
> isn't really universal.  For it to be universal, you can't limit its
> application to a group of people that possess a certain set of capacities
> and needs.

> Responding to Joe who asked for more specifics on universal design, I
> understand it as a guiding principle, and ideal towards which we struggle
> without actually attaining it, something like equality, freedom, or justice.
> Basically, as I stated, you design institutions, products, processes,
> services and so on so that they are as accessible as possible to the
> greatest number of people with the greatest variation in abilities.  One
> slightly more concrete way of thinking about this is that it involves
> providing access to information in multiple ways.  So at a controlled
> intersection, the changing of the light is information that is only
> presented visually.  Universal design would promote the inclusion of an
> audible and even a tactile signal that conveys the visual information in
> alternative ways.  We obviously will never make everything completely
> accessible to everyone, but that is what makes it an ideal.  It's something
> towards which we ought to strive.

> When things are universally designed, they include features that many many
> people will not actually make use of.  A large number of blind people may
> not need an audible signal, but some of course will, at the very least, find
> one very useful.  And the concern seems to be that people will assume that
> because some blind people have difficulty getting around without adapting
> the environment somewhat, then all blind people must need these adaptations,
> and then this leads to negative attitudes, discrimination, unemployment and
> so on.  For my objections to this line of argument, see my last post.

> In closing, I want to leave you with a quote from Jacobus tenBroek, a fellow
> Albertan I might add.  It suggests to me that tenBroek would support the
> fight against unnecessary obsticles that prevent us from travelling in the
> manner in which we choose, including the issue that sparked this debate.  I
> also think it's a nod towards universal design, the kind that's actually
> universal.

> tenBroek writes: “No courts have held or even darkly hinted that a blind man
> may rise in the morning, help get the children off to school, bid his wife
> goodbye,and proceed along the streets and bus lines to his daily work,
> without dog, cane, or guide, if such is his habit or preference, now and
> then brushing a tree or kicking a curb,but, notwithstanding, proceeding with
> firm step and sure air, knowing that he is part of the public for whom the
> streets are built and maintained in reasonable safety, by the help of his
> taxes, and that he shares with others this part of the world in which he,
> too,has a right to live” (1966, 867–68).

> tenBroek, Jacobus. 1966. The right to live in the world: The disabled in the
> law of torts.California Law Review 54: 841–919.

> Best,

> Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


>> Marc,

>> I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I was trying
>> to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true that bringing
>> attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in fact
>> solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been blind a
>> while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been hiding under a
>> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public tends to view us
>> through their own speculations of what their lives might be like if they
>> were blinded immediately without realizing that they have considerable
>> gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I also said is that the tree
>> could have served as a legitimate obstacle for this particular blind man.
>> Though I didn't say it directly, what I meant is that perhaps he does have
>> a cause to seek remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best way to handle
>> things. In my opinion, this incident is much like the woman who spilled
>> hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonnald's.

>> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or at
>> least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with universal
>> design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people to look
>> incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB does support
>> (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about creating a
>> universal design that honors the capacities of blind people while meeting
>> our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that assumes that we
>> have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi


>> Original message:
>>> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority
>>> of
>>> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this
>>> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought to
>>> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims about
>>> how
>>> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions
>>> about
>>> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit,
>>> and
>>> we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going to
>>> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.

>>> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only said
>>> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.

>>> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the notion
>>> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we are
>>> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
>>> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or
>>> not.

>>> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them
>>> are
>>> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not be
>>> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are
>>> doing
>>> us all harm.

>>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
>>> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these
>>> sorts
>>> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact
>>> that
>>> the person was travelling in the community independently, she might focus
>>> on
>>> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might
>>> begin
>>> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, or
>>> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
>>> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation
>>> involved
>>> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.

>>> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called
>>> the
>>> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person and
>>> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all
>>> need
>>> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
>>> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what we
>>> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react to
>>> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our
>>> positions
>>> on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, I'm
>>> not
>>> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
>>> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly
>>> unpredictable,
>>> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of activities
>>> we
>>> should engage in.

>>> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on these
>>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why
>>> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we
>>> suffer
>>> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
>>> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, and
>>> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they can
>>> comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without
>>> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
>>> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, the
>>> more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships
>>> will
>>> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.

>>> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most
>>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, the
>>> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
>>> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
>>> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user
>>> having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is
>>> only
>>> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has
>>> had
>>> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
>>> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind,
>>> with
>>> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances towards
>>> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at
>>> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe that
>>> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern
>>> with
>>> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that
>>> the
>>> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, but
>>> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not make
>>> us
>>> afraid to fight for what is right.

>>> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't
>>> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective
>>> to
>>> this story that hasn't been aired fully.

>>> Best,

>>> Marc

>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>> tree


>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>> blind
>>>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>>>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience
>>>> to
>>>> one/all of us or not.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?

>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

>>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>>> By bob mims

>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune

>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.

>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.

>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>> sidewalk.

>>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>> presence by use of his cane.”

>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”

>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.

>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.

>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.

>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>> it,” he said.

>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.


>>>>> __._,_.___


>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org

>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

>>>> --
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From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 01:34:49 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:34:49 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100815001007.1721.15922@web1>
References: <20100815001007.1721.15922@web1>
Message-ID: <723FC0353E294E9CB2F87CDDDFF9F4E0@MarcPC>

Jedi,

I appreciate your attempt at clarification, but I believe there still exists 
a problem.

Jedi said,
> The way to create a universal design honoring all blind people is to not 
> only look at the varying capacities of bdifferent blind people, but to 
> also consider the systems into which these capacities are imbedded and 
> from which they are born.

Marc says,
Sure, that's why I included institutions in my list, institutions, products, 
processes, services and so on.  No disagreement there.

Jedi said,
In so doing, we are more able to piece out the difference between a real 
need versus a perceived need.

Marc says,
The problem is that there is no single set of needs that are either real or 
perceived for all blind people.  What is not a need for me may be a real 
need for someone else.  It is not possible to piece out differences between 
real and perceived needs for heterogenious groups of people.  You may be 
able to do this for an individual, but unless you assume that blind people 
all have the same needs, then you are going to have real needs, regardless 
of discourse, that are possessed by some, but not all, of the members of the 
group.

Jedi said,
> Universal design doesn't necessarily mean that every piece of (for 
> example) visual information be conveyed non-visually.

Marc says,
Agreed, it's a good thing I didn't say that that's what universal design 
meant.

Jedi said,
What it does mean is that blind people, no matter how it's done, have access 
to whatever a sighted person has access to in such a way that the access is 
convenient, cost-effective, built in, and meets the needs of most people.

Marc says,
Again, this sounds like you're taking the universal out of universal design. 
If instead of limiting it to most people, you said meeting the needs of as 
many people as possible, then I think I almost might agree with this 
definition.  I also would suggest a very high threshhold on convenience and 
cost effectiveness to ensure that these are not just excuses not to meet 
obligations.

Jedi said,
Universal design doesn't have to be restricted to how products and services 
are created and maintained.

Marc says,
I refer you to my original illustrative list which included institutions and 
processes.

Jedi said,
Sometimes, it's about changing the surrounding systems  such that there are 
no ideologies placing beings into some kind of higherarchy. As it stands, 
sighted people still are considered more able than us. In order to create a 
universal design system debunking that assumption, we have to question why 
and how we've come to believe the inherent inability of blind people in 
comparison to the sighted in the first place, as well as how we (the blind 
and the sighted) perpetuate it.

Marc says,
While I agree with the thrust of this statement, I don't exactly see how 
it's relevant.  We should be looking at institutions and challenging 
dominant discourses, but how does this relate to the discussion? Do you 
believe that if we successfully challenge the system, it will turn out that 
all blind people have the same needs? If not, then my point still stands: 
promoting universal design will always result in some adaptations being made 
which aren't necessary for everyone involved.  And even though some people 
will assume that every blind person needs the adaptation, when in fact it is 
only a small proportion of blind people that need the adaptation, we should 
still fight for the inclusion of everyone and not pay so much attention to 
whether or not the public will generalize.

Jedi said,
I can tell you now that universal design is not as simple as creating and 
sustaining certain kinds of accessibility. I think the NFB understands that, 
and that's why our philosophy sometimes seems to contradict universal design 
in the first place.

Marc says,
I just don't think this is right.  How often do NFB leaders talk about 
making things as accessible as possible, accessible even to the blind person 
with little training and not too much intelligence? Based on the comments 
I've read on a dozen NFB lists, and based on the press releases, 
presidential reports, and banquet addresses, it seems to me that this 
position isn't taken up all that often.  If I'm wrong about this, please 
tell me where to look to find promotion of universal design principles.

Regards,

Marc




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> Marc,
>
> The way to create a universal design honoring all blind people is to not 
> only look at the varying capacities of bdifferent blind people, but to 
> also consider the systems into which these capacities are imbedded and 
> from which they are born. In so doing, we are more able to piece out the 
> difference between a real need versus a perceived need. Universal design 
> doesn't necessarily mean that every piece of (for example) visual 
> information be conveyed non-visually. What it does mean is that blind 
> people, no matter how it's done, have access to whatever a sighted person 
> has access to in such a way that the access is convenient, cost-effective, 
> built in, and meets the needs of most people.  Universal design doesn't 
> have to be restricted to how products and services are created and 
> maintained. Sometimes, it's about changing the surrounding systems  such 
> that there are no ideologies placing beings into some kind of higherarchy. 
> As it stands, sighted people still are considered more able than us. In 
> order to create a universal design system debunking that assumption, we 
> have to question why and how we've come to believe the inherent inability 
> of blind people in comparison to the sighted in the first place, as well 
> as how we (the blind and the sighted) perpetuate it.
>
> This is really tough stuff to communicate via e-mail, but I can tell you 
> now that universal design is not as simple as creating and sustaining 
> certain kinds of accessibility. I think the NFB understands that, and 
> that's why our philosophy sometimes seems to contradict universal design 
> in the first place. Am i making any sense at all? Probably not, but it was 
> worth a try.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> -Original Message-
>> Jedi,
>
>> I prefaced my comment by saying that it was not directed at you.  I 
>> wasn't
>> objecting to what you said so much as the idea contained in the couple of
>> sentences I quoted from you, and idea that was contained within the 
>> comments
>> of many others.
>
>> Regarding what you say about universal design, that the NFB is "about
>> creating a universal design that honors the capacities of blind people 
>> while
>> meeting our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that 
>> assumes
>> that we have more needs than we really do", this strikes me as a 
>> problematic
>> way of understanding universal design.  The question I would ask is:
>> capacities and needs of which blind people?
>
>> The problem is that blind people, like all people, have a tremendous 
>> amount
>> of variation in the capacities they possess.  A blind person that is
>> otherwise able-bodied, who has been blind for a long period of time, who 
>> has
>> received a lot of training, who is intelligent, confident, and so on is
>> going to have a different set of capacities than the person who is newly
>> blind, has had little training, has mobility difficulties, and is hard of
>> hearing on top of it, and considering how many lose their vision in old 
>> age,
>> don't think this picture is that out of the ordinary.
>
>> So, who do we look at when we are fighting for universal design that 
>> honours
>> the capacities of blind people without exaggerating their needs? Do we 
>> look
>> at the capacities of the members of this list, or do we look at the
>> capacities of blind seniors?
>
>> The problem I see with your understanding of universal design is that it
>> isn't really universal.  For it to be universal, you can't limit its
>> application to a group of people that possess a certain set of capacities
>> and needs.
>
>> Responding to Joe who asked for more specifics on universal design, I
>> understand it as a guiding principle, and ideal towards which we struggle
>> without actually attaining it, something like equality, freedom, or 
>> justice.
>> Basically, as I stated, you design institutions, products, processes,
>> services and so on so that they are as accessible as possible to the
>> greatest number of people with the greatest variation in abilities.  One
>> slightly more concrete way of thinking about this is that it involves
>> providing access to information in multiple ways.  So at a controlled
>> intersection, the changing of the light is information that is only
>> presented visually.  Universal design would promote the inclusion of an
>> audible and even a tactile signal that conveys the visual information in
>> alternative ways.  We obviously will never make everything completely
>> accessible to everyone, but that is what makes it an ideal.  It's 
>> something
>> towards which we ought to strive.
>
>> When things are universally designed, they include features that many 
>> many
>> people will not actually make use of.  A large number of blind people may
>> not need an audible signal, but some of course will, at the very least, 
>> find
>> one very useful.  And the concern seems to be that people will assume 
>> that
>> because some blind people have difficulty getting around without adapting
>> the environment somewhat, then all blind people must need these 
>> adaptations,
>> and then this leads to negative attitudes, discrimination, unemployment 
>> and
>> so on.  For my objections to this line of argument, see my last post.
>
>> In closing, I want to leave you with a quote from Jacobus tenBroek, a 
>> fellow
>> Albertan I might add.  It suggests to me that tenBroek would support the
>> fight against unnecessary obsticles that prevent us from travelling in 
>> the
>> manner in which we choose, including the issue that sparked this debate. 
>> I
>> also think it's a nod towards universal design, the kind that's actually
>> universal.
>
>> tenBroek writes: “No courts have held or even darkly hinted that a blind 
>> man
>> may rise in the morning, help get the children off to school, bid his 
>> wife
>> goodbye,and proceed along the streets and bus lines to his daily work,
>> without dog, cane, or guide, if such is his habit or preference, now and
>> then brushing a tree or kicking a curb,but, notwithstanding, proceeding 
>> with
>> firm step and sure air, knowing that he is part of the public for whom 
>> the
>> streets are built and maintained in reasonable safety, by the help of his
>> taxes, and that he shares with others this part of the world in which he,
>> too,has a right to live” (1966, 867–68).
>
>> tenBroek, Jacobus. 1966. The right to live in the world: The disabled in 
>> the
>> law of torts.California Law Review 54: 841–919.
>
>> Best,
>
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>> tree
>
>
>>> Marc,
>
>>> I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I was trying
>>> to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true that bringing
>>> attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in fact
>>> solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been blind a
>>> while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been hiding under a
>>> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public tends to view us
>>> through their own speculations of what their lives might be like if they
>>> were blinded immediately without realizing that they have considerable
>>> gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I also said is that the tree
>>> could have served as a legitimate obstacle for this particular blind 
>>> man.
>>> Though I didn't say it directly, what I meant is that perhaps he does 
>>> have
>>> a cause to seek remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best way to 
>>> handle
>>> things. In my opinion, this incident is much like the woman who spilled
>>> hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonnald's.
>
>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or 
>>> at
>>> least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with universal
>>> design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people to look
>>> incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB does 
>>> support
>>> (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about creating a
>>> universal design that honors the capacities of blind people while 
>>> meeting
>>> our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that assumes that 
>>> we
>>> have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority
>>>> of
>>>> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this
>>>> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought 
>>>> to
>>>> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims 
>>>> about
>>>> how
>>>> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions
>>>> about
>>>> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit,
>>>> and
>>>> we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going 
>>>> to
>>>> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.
>
>>>> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only 
>>>> said
>>>> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.
>
>>>> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the 
>>>> notion
>>>> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we 
>>>> are
>>>> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
>>>> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or
>>>> not.
>
>>>> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them
>>>> are
>>>> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not 
>>>> be
>>>> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are
>>>> doing
>>>> us all harm.
>
>>>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
>>>> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these
>>>> sorts
>>>> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact
>>>> that
>>>> the person was travelling in the community independently, she might 
>>>> focus
>>>> on
>>>> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might
>>>> begin
>>>> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, 
>>>> or
>>>> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
>>>> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation
>>>> involved
>>>> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.
>
>>>> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called
>>>> the
>>>> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person 
>>>> and
>>>> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all
>>>> need
>>>> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
>>>> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what 
>>>> we
>>>> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react 
>>>> to
>>>> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our
>>>> positions
>>>> on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, 
>>>> I'm
>>>> not
>>>> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
>>>> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly
>>>> unpredictable,
>>>> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of 
>>>> activities
>>>> we
>>>> should engage in.
>
>>>> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on 
>>>> these
>>>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why
>>>> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we
>>>> suffer
>>>> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
>>>> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, 
>>>> and
>>>> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they 
>>>> can
>>>> comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without
>>>> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
>>>> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, 
>>>> the
>>>> more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships
>>>> will
>>>> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
>
>>>> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most
>>>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, 
>>>> the
>>>> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
>>>> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
>>>> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user
>>>> having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is
>>>> only
>>>> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who 
>>>> has
>>>> had
>>>> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
>>>> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind,
>>>> with
>>>> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances 
>>>> towards
>>>> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, 
>>>> at
>>>> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe 
>>>> that
>>>> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern
>>>> with
>>>> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that
>>>> the
>>>> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, 
>>>> but
>>>> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not 
>>>> make
>>>> us
>>>> afraid to fight for what is right.
>
>>>> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't
>>>> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective
>>>> to
>>>> this story that hasn't been aired fully.
>
>>>> Best,
>
>>>> Marc
>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>> tree
>
>
>>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as 
>>>>> it
>>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>>> blind
>>>>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>>>>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience
>>>>> to
>>>>> one/all of us or not.
>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>>>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>>>> By bob mims
>
>>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>
>>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>>> sidewalk.
>
>>>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to 
>>>>>> grow
>>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>
>>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>
>>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>>> it,” he said.
>
>>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, 
>>>>>> either,
>>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>>>>>> __._,_.___
>
>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
>>>>> --
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>
>
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From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Aug 15 01:40:32 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:40:32 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000167069510@mailfront1.g2host.com>

The Independence Market doesn't sell the Seiko Braille watches.  I 
believe I got mine from Independent Living Aids, www.independentliving.com

They are more expensive than the watches the NFB sells, and you have 
to decide if it is worth it to you or not.  i think they last longer, 
so it was to me.

The cane tip is a metal cap over a rubber base.  Eventually the metal 
will wear out, around the edge that hits the road.  Then most of the 
metal cap drops away and a ring is left.  It is obvious when this 
happens the rubber sticks to things, and doesn't tap well.  Some 
people wait for the ring to change, I do, others may change sooner, 
it is up to you.

The tip is just forced over the end of the cane.  Depending on the 
tip, some go on relatively easily, some take more force.  No two are 
the same.  If it is a tight one, it may help to turn it on a slight 
angle and work over the screw end that holds it on.  Just experiment, 
you won't break anything.

Dave

At 06:28 PM 8/14/2010, you wrote:
>Hi All!!
>
>I have some more questions!
>
>First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has a Seko
>watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in the NFB
>Independence market. She told me that they have stopped making this
>kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the independence
>market there were like three different ones ranging in price from $45
>to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in the Quartz
>brand...so I was wondering what the differences between different
>braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that is still
>being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at convention and
>she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in that area.
>
>How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been told when
>the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a free white
>cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already on it. I
>bought five tips during convention and have been told how to put them
>on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my tip is
>scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting to
>stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels more rough
>somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing down? If
>so, how much should you let it wear down before changing it?
>
>Also I want to make sure I know how to change properly...you basically
>twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the new tip on
>you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is that right?
>Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else I should
>know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto the cane
>easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the new tip on,
>do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want to make
>sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on lol!
>
>A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting lost, and
>going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try going to the
>dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the open
>driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and go straight.
>I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting either a
>gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped me to the
>trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong side), and I
>just had them guide me back to my building but I want to try it again
>and to improve so had some questions. First, is there anything more I
>could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane and walked
>faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was. I've read
>that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person from veering
>to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your arc by
>standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to side making
>sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read that it
>needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my doorjamb and
>tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I put my cane
>in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried tapping in front
>of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my arc became
>much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of strain...like it felt
>as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural somehow...Is
>this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I am asking
>these questions is because the more practice I get with my cane, the
>better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there anything
>else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>
>Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much practice with a
>cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I can get,
>when going out when should I take an arm and when should I use the
>cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and I've been
>told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training what's up to me
>isn't always the best because I need practice, practice, practice. I
>know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to talk to
>someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably better but
>other than those situations should I be using the cane on my own? Ever
>since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my cane on
>the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me gain
>confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is it hard from
>the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside them? The
>main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want to put the
>sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate them...
>
>Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the dumpster,and I end
>up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help, should I
>either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use my cane or
>let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because too many
>times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When someone
>assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the next time I
>have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At convention, by
>the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which direction to go
>because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I have a very
>hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on my own.
>
>I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I think once
>you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so this kind
>of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting out...I need
>practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or just
>leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I don't want
>to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation. But, if I am
>guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>
>The few times I have used my cane on my own and either gotten
>directions, or followed someone, I have done very very well. It gives
>me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane more, and
>makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my apartment
>complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the pool. My
>parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool sometimes. They
>called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my own. My
>parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the gate at a
>picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers fiancae
>just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on my left
>side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they were
>sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told him just
>like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the way across
>the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had been guided.
>
>I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know I've rambled a
>bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying to ask and
>why I am asking these questions!
>
>Thanks so much!
>Kerri

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 01:44:48 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 18:44:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Kerri,
When you do let someone guide, try to mentally remember the directions as you are walking. Basically don't just let them guide but try to follow along the directions as you are walking. You have the right idea of traveling independently "practice practice practice". After all practice makes perfect.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
> Hi All!!
> 
> I have some more questions!
> 
> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has
> a Seko
> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in
> the NFB
> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped
> making this
> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the
> independence
> market there were like three different ones ranging in
> price from $45
> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in
> the Quartz
> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between
> different
> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that
> is still
> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at
> convention and
> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in
> that area.
> 
> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been
> told when
> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a
> free white
> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already
> on it. I
> bought five tips during convention and have been told how
> to put them
> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my
> tip is
> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting
> to
> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels
> more rough
> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing
> down? If
> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing
> it?
> 
> Also I want to make sure I know how to change
> properly...you basically
> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the
> new tip on
> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is
> that right?
> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else
> I should
> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto
> the cane
> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the
> new tip on,
> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want
> to make
> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on
> lol!
> 
> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting
> lost, and
> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try
> going to the
> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the
> open
> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and
> go straight.
> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting
> either a
> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped
> me to the
> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong
> side), and I
> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to
> try it again
> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there
> anything more I
> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane
> and walked
> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was.
> I've read
> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person
> from veering
> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your
> arc by
> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to
> side making
> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read
> that it
> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my
> doorjamb and
> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I
> put my cane
> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried
> tapping in front
> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my
> arc became
> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of
> strain...like it felt
> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural
> somehow...Is
> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I
> am asking
> these questions is because the more practice I get with my
> cane, the
> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there
> anything
> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
> 
> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much
> practice with a
> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I
> can get,
> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I
> use the
> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and
> I've been
> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training
> what's up to me
> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice,
> practice. I
> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to
> talk to
> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably
> better but
> other than those situations should I be using the cane on
> my own? Ever
> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my
> cane on
> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me
> gain
> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is
> it hard from
> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside
> them? The
> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want
> to put the
> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate
> them...
> 
> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the
> dumpster,and I end
> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help,
> should I
> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use
> my cane or
> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because
> too many
> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When
> someone
> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the
> next time I
> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At
> convention, by
> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which
> direction to go
> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I
> have a very
> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on
> my own.
> 
> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I
> think once
> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so
> this kind
> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting
> out...I need
> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or
> just
> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I
> don't want
> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation.
> But, if I am
> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
> 
> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either
> gotten
> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very
> well. It gives
> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane
> more, and
> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my
> apartment
> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the
> pool. My
> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool
> sometimes. They
> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my
> own. My
> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the
> gate at a
> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers
> fiancae
> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on
> my left
> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they
> were
> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told
> him just
> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the
> way across
> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had
> been guided.
> 
> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know
> I've rambled a
> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying
> to ask and
> why I am asking these questions!
> 
> Thanks so much!
> Kerri
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From dandrews at visi.com  Sun Aug 15 01:45:06 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:45:06 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with  tree
In-Reply-To: <723FC0353E294E9CB2F87CDDDFF9F4E0@MarcPC>
References: <20100815001007.1721.15922@web1>
	<723FC0353E294E9CB2F87CDDDFF9F4E0@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <auto-000164403996@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Actually, "universal design" is for all people 
disabled and non-disabled alike, not just all blind persons.

Dave

At 08:34 PM 8/14/2010, you wrote:
>Jedi, I appreciate your attempt at 
>clarification, but I believe there still exists 
>a problem. Jedi said, > The way to create a 
>universal design honoring all blind people is to 
>not > only look at the varying capacities of 
>bdifferent blind people, but to > also consider 
>the systems into which these capacities are 
>imbedded and > from which they are born. Marc 
>says, Sure, that's why I included institutions 
>in my list, institutions, products, processes, 
>services and so on.  No disagreement there. Jedi 
>said, In so doing, we are more able to piece out 
>the difference between a real need versus a 
>perceived need. Marc says, The problem is that 
>there is no single set of needs that are either 
>real or perceived for all blind people.  What is 
>not a need for me may be a real need for someone 
>else.  It is not possible to piece out 
>differences between real and perceived needs for 
>heterogenious groups of people.  You may be able 
>to do this for an individual, but unless you 
>assume that blind people all have the same 
>needs, then you are going to have real needs, 
>regardless of discourse, that are possessed by 
>some, but not all, of the members of the group. 
>Jedi said, > Universal design doesn't 
>necessarily mean that every piece of (for > 
>example) visual information be conveyed 
>non-visually. Marc says, Agreed, it's a good 
>thing I didn't say that that's what universal 
>design meant. Jedi said, What it does mean is 
>that blind people, no matter how it's done, have 
>access to whatever a sighted person has access 
>to in such a way that the access is convenient, 
>cost-effective, built in, and meets the needs of 
>most people. Marc says, Again, this sounds like 
>you're taking the universal out of universal 
>design. If instead of limiting it to most 
>people, you said meeting the needs of as many 
>people as possible, then I think I almost might 
>agree with this definition.  I also would 
>suggest a very high threshhold on convenience 
>and cost effectiveness to ensure that these are 
>not just excuses not to meet obligations. Jedi 
>said, Universal design doesn't have to be 
>restricted to how products and services are 
>created and maintained. Marc says, I refer you 
>to my original illustrative list which included 
>institutions and processes. Jedi said, 
>Sometimes, it's about changing the surrounding 
>systems  such that there are no ideologies 
>placing beings into some kind of higherarchy. As 
>it stands, sighted people still are considered 
>more able than us. In order to create a 
>universal design system debunking that 
>assumption, we have to question why and how 
>we've come to believe the inherent inability of 
>blind people in comparison to the sighted in the 
>first place, as well as how we (the blind and 
>the sighted) perpetuate it. Marc says, While I 
>agree with the thrust of this statement, I don't 
>exactly see how it's relevant.  We should be 
>looking at institutions and challenging dominant 
>discourses, but how does this relate to the 
>discussion? Do you believe that if we 
>successfully challenge the system, it will turn 
>out that all blind people have the same needs? 
>If not, then my point still stands: promoting 
>universal design will always result in some 
>adaptations being made which aren't necessary 
>for everyone involved.  And even though some 
>people will assume that every blind person needs 
>the adaptation, when in fact it is only a small 
>proportion of blind people that need the 
>adaptation, we should still fight for the 
>inclusion of everyone and not pay so much 
>attention to whether or not the public will 
>generalize. Jedi said, I can tell you now that 
>universal design is not as simple as creating 
>and sustaining certain kinds of accessibility. I 
>think the NFB understands that, and that's why 
>our philosophy sometimes seems to contradict 
>universal design in the first place. Marc says, 
>I just don't think this is right.  How often do 
>NFB leaders talk about making things as 
>accessible as possible, accessible even to the 
>blind person with little training and not too 
>much intelligence? Based on the comments I've 
>read on a dozen NFB lists, and based on the 
>press releases, presidential reports, and 
>banquet addresses, it seems to me that this 
>position isn't taken up all that often.  If I'm 
>wrong about this, please tell me where to look 
>to find promotion of universal design 
>principles. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message 
>----- From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> 
>To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> Sent: Saturday, August 
>14, 2010 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man 
>sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree > 
>Marc, > > The way to create a universal design 
>honoring all blind people is to not > only look 
>at the varying capacities of bdifferent blind 
>people, but to > also consider the systems into 
>which these capacities are imbedded and > from 
>which they are born. In so doing, we are more 
>able to piece out the > difference between a 
>real need versus a perceived need. Universal 
>design > doesn't necessarily mean that every 
>piece of (for example) visual > information be 
>conveyed non-visually. What it does mean is that 
>blind > people, no matter how it's done, have 
>access to whatever a sighted person > has access 
>to in such a way that the access is convenient, 
>cost-effective, > built in, and meets the needs 
>of most people.  Universal design doesn't > have 
>to be restricted to how products and services 
>are created and > maintained. Sometimes, it's 
>about changing the surrounding systems  such > 
>that there are no ideologies placing beings into 
>some kind of higherarchy. > As it stands, 
>sighted people still are considered more able 
>than us. In > order to create a universal design 
>system debunking that assumption, we > have to 
>question why and how we've come to believe the 
>inherent inability > of blind people in 
>comparison to the sighted in the first place, as 
>well > as how we (the blind and the sighted) 
>perpetuate it. > > This is really tough stuff to 
>communicate via e-mail, but I can tell you > now 
>that universal design is not as simple as 
>creating and sustaining > certain kinds of 
>accessibility. I think the NFB understands that, 
>and > that's why our philosophy sometimes seems 
>to contradict universal design > in the first 
>place. Am i making any sense at all? Probably 
>not, but it was > worth a try. > > 
>Respectfully, > Jedi > > -Original Message- >> 
>Jedi, > >> I prefaced my comment by saying that 
>it was not directed at you.  I >> wasn't >> 
>objecting to what you said so much as the idea 
>contained in the couple of >> sentences I quoted 
>from you, and idea that was contained within 
>the >> comments >> of many others. > >> 
>Regarding what you say about universal design, 
>that the NFB is "about >> creating a universal 
>design that honors the capacities of blind 
>people >> while >> meeting our accessibility 
>needs rather than creating a design that >> 
>assumes >> that we have more needs than we 
>really do", this strikes me as a >> 
>problematic >> way of understanding universal 
>design.  The question I would ask is: >> 
>capacities and needs of which blind people? > >> 
>The problem is that blind people, like all 
>people, have a tremendous >> amount >> of 
>variation in the capacities they possess.  A 
>blind person that is >> otherwise able-bodied, 
>who has been blind for a long period of time, 
>who >> has >> received a lot of training, who is 
>intelligent, confident, and so on is >> going to 
>have a different set of capacities than the 
>person who is newly >> blind, has had little 
>training, has mobility difficulties, and is hard 
>of >> hearing on top of it, and considering how 
>many lose their vision in old >> age, >> don't 
>think this picture is that out of the 
>ordinary. > >> So, who do we look at when we are 
>fighting for universal design that >> honours >> 
>the capacities of blind people without 
>exaggerating their needs? Do we >> look >> at 
>the capacities of the members of this list, or 
>do we look at the >> capacities of blind 
>seniors? > >> The problem I see with your 
>understanding of universal design is that it >> 
>isn't really universal.  For it to be universal, 
>you can't limit its >> application to a group of 
>people that possess a certain set of 
>capacities >> and needs. > >> Responding to Joe 
>who asked for more specifics on universal 
>design, I >> understand it as a guiding 
>principle, and ideal towards which we 
>struggle >> without actually attaining it, 
>something like equality, freedom, or >> 
>justice. >> Basically, as I stated, you design 
>institutions, products, processes, >> services 
>and so on so that they are as accessible as 
>possible to the >> greatest number of people 
>with the greatest variation in 
>abilities.  One >> slightly more concrete way of 
>thinking about this is that it involves >> 
>providing access to information in multiple 
>ways.  So at a controlled >> intersection, the 
>changing of the light is information that is 
>only >> presented visually.  Universal design 
>would promote the inclusion of an >> audible and 
>even a tactile signal that conveys the visual 
>information in >> alternative ways.  We 
>obviously will never make everything 
>completely >> accessible to everyone, but that 
>is what makes it an ideal.  It's >> something >> 
>towards which we ought to strive. > >> When 
>things are universally designed, they include 
>features that many >> many >> people will not 
>actually make use of.  A large number of blind 
>people may >> not need an audible signal, but 
>some of course will, at the very least, >> 
>find >> one very useful.  And the concern seems 
>to be that people will assume >> that >> because 
>some blind people have difficulty getting around 
>without adapting >> the environment somewhat, 
>then all blind people must need these >> 
>adaptations, >> and then this leads to negative 
>attitudes, discrimination, unemployment >> 
>and >> so on.  For my objections to this line of 
>argument, see my last post. > >> In closing, I 
>want to leave you with a quote from Jacobus 
>tenBroek, a >> fellow >> Albertan I might 
>add.  It suggests to me that tenBroek would 
>support the >> fight against unnecessary 
>obsticles that prevent us from travelling in >> 
>the >> manner in which we choose, including the 
>issue that sparked this debate. >> I >> also 
>think it's a nod towards universal design, the 
>kind that's actually >> universal. > >> tenBroek 
>writes: “No courts have held or even darkly 
>hinted that a blind >> man >> may rise in the 
>morning, help get the children off to school, 
>bid his >> wife >> goodbye,and proceed along the 
>streets and bus lines to his daily work, >> 
>without dog, cane, or guide, if such is his 
>habit or preference, now and >> then brushing a 
>tree or kicking a curb,but, notwithstanding, 
>proceeding >> with >> firm step and sure air, 
>knowing that he is part of the public for 
>whom >> the >> streets are built and maintained 
>in reasonable safety, by the help of his >> 
>taxes, and that he shares with others this part 
>of the world in which he, >> too,has a right to 
>live” (1966, 867­68). > >> tenBroek, Jacobus. 
>1966.. The right to live in the world: The 
>disabled in >> the >> law of torts.California 
>Law Review 54: 841­919. > >>> Best, > >> Marc >> 
>----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi" 
><loneblindjedi at samobile.net> >> To: 
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >> Sent: Saturday, August 
>14, 2010 4:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind 
>man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with >> 
>tree > > >>> Marc, > >>> I feel that my comments 
>were taken out of context somewhat. I was 
>trying >>> to give both sides of the issue a 
>fair hearing. It's true that bringing >>> 
>attention to the incident in the way it's being 
>done might in fact >>> solidify negative 
>perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been 
>blind a >>> while shouldn't miss that 
>possibility unless they've been hiding under 
>a >>> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, 
>the public tends to view us >>> through their 
>own speculations of what their lives might be 
>like if they >>> were blinded immediately 
>without realizing that they have 
>considerable >>> gaps in knowledge regarding 
>blindness. What I also said is that the tree >>> 
>could have served as a legitimate obstacle for 
>this particular blind >>> man. >>> Though I 
>didn't say it directly, what I meant is that 
>perhaps he does >>> have >>> a cause to seek 
>remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best way 
>to >>> handle >>> things. In my opinion, this 
>incident is much like the woman who spilled >>> 
>hot coffee in her lap and sued 
>McDonnald's. > >>> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I 
>hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or >>> 
>at >>> least your understanding of it) seems to 
>be out of sync with universal >>> design 
>principles for the reason of not wanting blind 
>people to look >>> incompetent. I don't think 
>this is the case. I think the NFB does >>> 
>support >>> (and fights for) universal design, 
>but we're also about creating a >>> universal 
>design that honors the capacities of blind 
>people while >>> meeting >>> our accessibility 
>needs rather than creating a design that assumes 
>that >>> we >>> have more needs than we really 
>do. Does that make sense? > >>> 
>Respectfully, >>> Jedi > > >>> Original 
>message: >>>> I'm not very surprised, but 
>nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority >>>> 
>of >>>> the responses to this article.  Based on 
>one reporters account of this >>>> story, we 
>have rediculous proposals insisting that blind 
>people ought >>>> to >>>> walk around holding 
>one arm in the air, we have unjustified 
>claims >>>> about >>>> how >>>> fast the person 
>must have been walking, we have unfounded 
>assumptions >>>> about >>>> what this person may 
>have tried to do before escalating to a law 
>suit, >>>> and >>>> we have highly speculative 
>claims about how this one incident is going >>>> 
>to >>>> set every confident, independent blind 
>person back 20 years. > >>>> Jedi wrote the 
>following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she 
>only >>>> said >>>> first, and with brevity and 
>clarity, what many others said 
>afterwards. > >>>> However, suing could set a 
>bad precedent as it > would reaify the >>>> 
>notion >>>> that obstacles of any kind are 
>hazardous to > blind people because we >>>> 
>are >>>> blind; the public may take this 
>incident > and generalize it to all >>>> 
>obstacles whether they're really an > 
>inconvenience to one/all of us or >>>> 
>not. > >>>> I would raise three objections to 
>this line of thinking.  None of them >>>> 
>are >>>> devastating, but, taken together, I 
>think there is good reason to not >>>> be >>>> 
>completely convinced that people who fight these 
>sorts of battles are >>>> doing >>>> us all 
>harm. > >>>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to 
>think that we can predict how any one >>>> 
>individual, let alone the so called public, is 
>going to react to these >>>> sorts >>>> of 
>stories.  Someone reading the story might 
>respond more to the fact >>>> that >>>> the 
>person was travelling in the community 
>independently, she might >>>> focus >>>> on >>>> 
>the person's willingness to stand up for what he 
>believes, she might >>>> begin >>>> to think 
>about her own front yard tree with its low 
>hanging branches, >>>> or >>>> most likely in my 
>opinion, she won't think twice about it, 
>assuming she >>>> reads it at all.  The point is 
>that there is a lot of speculation >>>> 
>involved >>>> here, and we should be cautious in 
>the face of so much speculation. > >>>> 2. Let's 
>say, for the sake of argument, that there is 
>this thing called >>>> the >>>> public, and the 
>public generalizes from the experience of one 
>person >>>> and >>>> applies it to all of us 
>blind people.  The public believes that we 
>all >>>> need >>>> help getting around all these 
>obsticles, and eventually this leads to >>>> 
>discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base 
>our positions on what >>>> we >>>> judge to be 
>right, or should we base them on how the public 
>will react >>>> to >>>> them? Probably the 
>response will be to say that we should base 
>our >>>> positions >>>> on both what we think is 
>right and how the public will react.  Fine, >>>> 
>I'm >>>> not >>>> saying we should ignore public 
>reaction, but in the face of so much >>>> 
>speculation, see objection 1, where public 
>reaction is highly >>>> unpredictable, >>>> it 
>should play only a very minor role in deciding 
>what sort of >>>> activities >>>> we >>>> should 
>engage in. > >>>> 3. Even if the public does 
>develop negative misconceptions based on >>>> 
>these >>>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean 
>that people can't be educated.  Why >>>> 
>couldn't it be the case that by fighting to 
>remove these barriers, we >>>> suffer >>>> a 
>short-term increase in negative conceptions for 
>a decrease of such >>>> conceptions in the long 
>term? Get blind people out in the 
>community, >>>> and >>>> that's how you will 
>change attitudes.  The more people that feel 
>they >>>> can >>>> comfortably and independently 
>travel throughout the community, without >>>> 
>having first spent 8 months intensively studying 
>the latest >>>> hand-in-front-of-face technique 
>for detecting over-hanging obsticles, >>>> 
>the >>>> more people you will have out in the 
>community, the more relationships >>>> will >>>> 
>be developed, and the more likely you are to 
>change attitudes. > >>>> Many of the comments 
>thus far in this thread illustrate two of the 
>most >>>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB 
>policies are misguided.  First, >>>> the >>>> 
>failure to promote universal design.  Universal 
>design means creating >>>> institutions, 
>products, processes, services, and so on that 
>are as >>>> accessible as possible to the widest 
>number of people, without the user >>>> having 
>to possess special equipment or training.  If 
>environment A is >>>> only >>>> navigable by 
>some blind person who has been blind for ten 
>years, who >>>> has >>>> had >>>> training at an 
>NFB Center, and who has no other disabling 
>physical >>>> variations, and environment B is 
>navigable by someone recently blind, >>>> 
>with >>>> little training, and with a bad hip, 
>then we should adopt stances >>>> towards >>>> 
>design that bring us closer to environment 
>B.  It might be true that, >>>> at >>>> first, 
>taking these positions causes that foolish 
>public to believe >>>> that >>>> blindness 
>equals incompetence, but this leads me to my 
>second concern >>>> with >>>> NFB policy: there 
>is far too much concern with the variety of ways 
>that >>>> the >>>> public might think less of 
>us.  Of course public perceptions matter, >>>> 
>but >>>> they are highly unpredictable, 
>changeable over time, and should not >>>> 
>make >>>> us >>>> afraid to fight for what is 
>right. > >>>> I've been preaching this sort of 
>attitude for a while now, and I don't >>>> 
>really expect to change anyone's mind, but there 
>is another perspective >>>> to >>>> this story 
>that hasn't been aired fully. > >>>> 
>Best, > >>>> Marc > >>>> ----- Original Message 
>----- >>>> From: "Jedi" 
><loneblindjedi at samobile.net> >>>> To: 
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>>> Sent: Friday, August 
>13, 2010 7:30 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] 
>Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in 
>with >>>> tree > > >>>>> The tree could be an 
>annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly 
>tall >>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall 
>blind people who don't use guide >>>>> dogs or 
>some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are 
>going to miss >>>>> those overhead branches. 
>However, suing could set a bad precedent 
>as >>>>> it >>>>> would reaify the notion that 
>obstacles of any kind are hazardous to >>>>> 
>blind >>>>> people because we are blind; the 
>public may take this incident and >>>>> 
>generalize it to all obstacles whether they're 
>really an inconvenience >>>>> to >>>>> one/all 
>of us or not. > >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> 
>Jedi > >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> I thought 
>this story was interesting. What do you think? 
>Is the >>>>>> lawsuit appropriate? > >>>>>> 
>Arielle >>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel 
>over run-in with tree > >>>>>> 
>http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp  
> >>>>>> By bob mims > >>>>>> The Salt Lake 
>Tribune > >>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 
>10:59PM >>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a 
>hot dog. Instead, as the blind man >>>>>> walked 
>toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, 
>he got a face >>>>>> full of tree — and severe 
>neck injuries. > >>>>>> Now, the 36--year-old 
>Utah County man has filed a personal 
>injury >>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the 
>Wienerschnitzel at the corner of >>>>>> North 
>Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City. > >>>>>> 
>The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, 
>Reynolds — who had been >>>>>> on his way to the 
>UUtah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got 
>off a >>>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to 
>get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man >>>>>> navigated 
>toward the entrance with his cane swinging in 
>front of him, >>>>>> he hit the tree, which the 
>suit contends had encroached on the >>>>>> 
>sidewalk. > >>>>>> “The tree struck him 
>squarely in the face and knocked him to 
>the >>>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed 
>Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to >>>>>> 
>grow >>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible 
>for Mr. Reynolds to detect its >>>>>> presence 
>by use of his cane.” > >>>>>> The suit argues 
>that because the tree was “rooted in the 
>ground far >>>>>> to >>>>>> one side of the 
>sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across 
>the >>>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear 
>hazard.” > >>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified 
>reimbursement for past and future medical >>>>>> 
>expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering 
>stemming from alleged >>>>>> negligence in the 
>maintenance of the tree. > >>>>>> Along with 
>Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner 
>of the >>>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District 
>Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp. >>>>>> and 
>five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a 
>jury trial; 3rd >>>>>> District Judge Sandra 
>Peuler has been assigned the case. > >>>>>> 
>Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises 
>declined to comment >>>>>> Wednesday, noting he 
>had not yet been served with the suit. > >>>>>> 
>Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for 
>Irvine, Calif.-based >>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., 
>which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined 
>to >>>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of 
>this lawsuit and will look into >>>>>> it,” he 
>said. > >>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt 
>Lake City, would not comment, >>>>>> 
>either, >>>>>> citing the pending nature of the 
>litigation. > > >>>>>> __._,_.___ > > >>>>>> 
>-- >>>>>> Arielle Silverman >>>>>> President, 
>National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> 
>Phone:  602-502-2255 >>>>>> Email: >>>>>> 
>nabs.president at gmail.com >>>>>> Website: >>>>>> 
>www.nabslink.org > >>>>>> 
>_______________________________________________ > 
> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> 
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org  
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options 
>or get your account info for >>>>>> 
>nabs-l: >>>>>> 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net  
> > >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the 
>System Access Mobile Network.  Visit >>>>> 
>www.serotek.com to learn more about 
>accessibility anywhere. >>>>> 
>_______________________________________________ > 
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> 
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org  
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options 
>or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 01:49:08 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 21:49:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com><3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus><AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>

Mark,

I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that might
be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a good
thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago I
sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my guide dog
on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions the
situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the traveling
consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case was
already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school while
still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie personally.
I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with enrollment
and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot see.
If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason than
that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I don't
know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least think
twice before saying "no."

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 02:03:19 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 20:03:19 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>
	<946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikQ_K2kaX-tbKk9wgksLtJxP8eOf2b+HVNkdFfQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kerri,

It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing because you'll hear a
noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground while you are
walking, and then your cane will stick on everything and won't give
you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of extra tips, you can
change them as soon as you start to notice scratches on your tip, but
if you want to be more economical, you can wait until the ring falls
off.

Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting help from a stranger,
I'll almost always follow behind them instead of taking their arm, not
only so I can know where we're going, but also because I don't know
the person and don't want to be led somewhere I don't want to go
without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone I know and trust,
then a key factor in the decision is "is this a route I'll likely be
taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow behind them using my
cane so I can really be aware of where we're going and be able to
remember the route for later trips. Most people will understand and
not be offended if you say "I'd like to just follow you so I can
remember how to get here next time". If it's not someplace I'm likely
to go back to again, then the decision really depends on my mood, how
crowded the place is, whether I want to be carrying something in my
non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide inconvenient), etc. If it's a
good friend they should be understanding that you might move a little
slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm but that the
practice and confidence is good for you.

Arielle

On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Kerri,
> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally remember the directions as
> you are walking. Basically don't just let them guide but try to follow along
> the directions as you are walking. You have the right idea of traveling
> independently "practice practice practice". After all practice makes
> perfect.
> Anmol
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps
> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze
> among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
>
>
> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
>> Hi All!!
>>
>> I have some more questions!
>>
>> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has
>> a Seko
>> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in
>> the NFB
>> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped
>> making this
>> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the
>> independence
>> market there were like three different ones ranging in
>> price from $45
>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in
>> the Quartz
>> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between
>> different
>> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that
>> is still
>> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at
>> convention and
>> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in
>> that area.
>>
>> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been
>> told when
>> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a
>> free white
>> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already
>> on it. I
>> bought five tips during convention and have been told how
>> to put them
>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my
>> tip is
>> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting
>> to
>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels
>> more rough
>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing
>> down? If
>> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing
>> it?
>>
>> Also I want to make sure I know how to change
>> properly...you basically
>> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the
>> new tip on
>> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is
>> that right?
>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else
>> I should
>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto
>> the cane
>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the
>> new tip on,
>> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want
>> to make
>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on
>> lol!
>>
>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting
>> lost, and
>> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try
>> going to the
>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the
>> open
>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and
>> go straight.
>> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting
>> either a
>> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped
>> me to the
>> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong
>> side), and I
>> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to
>> try it again
>> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there
>> anything more I
>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane
>> and walked
>> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was.
>> I've read
>> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person
>> from veering
>> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your
>> arc by
>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to
>> side making
>> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read
>> that it
>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my
>> doorjamb and
>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I
>> put my cane
>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried
>> tapping in front
>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my
>> arc became
>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of
>> strain...like it felt
>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural
>> somehow...Is
>> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I
>> am asking
>> these questions is because the more practice I get with my
>> cane, the
>> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there
>> anything
>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>>
>> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much
>> practice with a
>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I
>> can get,
>> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I
>> use the
>> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and
>> I've been
>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training
>> what's up to me
>> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice,
>> practice. I
>> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to
>> talk to
>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably
>> better but
>> other than those situations should I be using the cane on
>> my own? Ever
>> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my
>> cane on
>> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me
>> gain
>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is
>> it hard from
>> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside
>> them? The
>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want
>> to put the
>> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate
>> them...
>>
>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the
>> dumpster,and I end
>> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help,
>> should I
>> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use
>> my cane or
>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because
>> too many
>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When
>> someone
>> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the
>> next time I
>> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At
>> convention, by
>> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which
>> direction to go
>> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I
>> have a very
>> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on
>> my own.
>>
>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I
>> think once
>> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so
>> this kind
>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting
>> out...I need
>> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or
>> just
>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I
>> don't want
>> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation.
>> But, if I am
>> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>>
>> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either
>> gotten
>> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very
>> well. It gives
>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane
>> more, and
>> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my
>> apartment
>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the
>> pool. My
>> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool
>> sometimes. They
>> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my
>> own. My
>> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the
>> gate at a
>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers
>> fiancae
>> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on
>> my left
>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they
>> were
>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told
>> him just
>> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the
>> way across
>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had
>> been guided.
>>
>> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know
>> I've rambled a
>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying
>> to ask and
>> why I am asking these questions!
>>
>> Thanks so much!
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 02:39:12 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 22:39:12 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <auto-000164403996@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <20100815001007.1721.15922@web1>
	<723FC0353E294E9CB2F87CDDDFF9F4E0@MarcPC>
	<auto-000164403996@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinaEsW=1-xSugc_HSS9FK6Wj6PY5kEa5EDy984y@mail.gmail.com>

No one keeps up their forearm all the time, I hope. But I do have a
suggestion that is a much better way to avoid hitting things with your
head. Wear a cap with a stiff bill. I do this sometimes. It shields my
face from the sun and it has saved me from getting slapped in the face
by a low-hanging branch or getting rained on by branches after it
rains several times. It also has prevented from hitting my face on a
partially-closed door a few times, as well.

Just an idea,
Jewel

On 8/14/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> Actually, "universal design" is for all people
> disabled and non-disabled alike, not just all blind persons.
>
> Dave
>
> At 08:34 PM 8/14/2010, you wrote:
>>Jedi, I appreciate your attempt at
>>clarification, but I believe there still exists
>>a problem. Jedi said, > The way to create a
>>universal design honoring all blind people is to
>>not > only look at the varying capacities of
>>bdifferent blind people, but to > also consider
>>the systems into which these capacities are
>>imbedded and > from which they are born. Marc
>>says, Sure, that's why I included institutions
>>in my list, institutions, products, processes,
>>services and so on.  No disagreement there. Jedi
>>said, In so doing, we are more able to piece out
>>the difference between a real need versus a
>>perceived need. Marc says, The problem is that
>>there is no single set of needs that are either
>>real or perceived for all blind people.  What is
>>not a need for me may be a real need for someone
>>else.  It is not possible to piece out
>>differences between real and perceived needs for
>>heterogenious groups of people.  You may be able
>>to do this for an individual, but unless you
>>assume that blind people all have the same
>>needs, then you are going to have real needs,
>>regardless of discourse, that are possessed by
>>some, but not all, of the members of the group.
>>Jedi said, > Universal design doesn't
>>necessarily mean that every piece of (for >
>>example) visual information be conveyed
>>non-visually. Marc says, Agreed, it's a good
>>thing I didn't say that that's what universal
>>design meant. Jedi said, What it does mean is
>>that blind people, no matter how it's done, have
>>access to whatever a sighted person has access
>>to in such a way that the access is convenient,
>>cost-effective, built in, and meets the needs of
>>most people. Marc says, Again, this sounds like
>>you're taking the universal out of universal
>>design. If instead of limiting it to most
>>people, you said meeting the needs of as many
>>people as possible, then I think I almost might
>>agree with this definition.  I also would
>>suggest a very high threshhold on convenience
>>and cost effectiveness to ensure that these are
>>not just excuses not to meet obligations. Jedi
>>said, Universal design doesn't have to be
>>restricted to how products and services are
>>created and maintained. Marc says, I refer you
>>to my original illustrative list which included
>>institutions and processes. Jedi said,
>>Sometimes, it's about changing the surrounding
>>systems  such that there are no ideologies
>>placing beings into some kind of higherarchy. As
>>it stands, sighted people still are considered
>>more able than us. In order to create a
>>universal design system debunking that
>>assumption, we have to question why and how
>>we've come to believe the inherent inability of
>>blind people in comparison to the sighted in the
>>first place, as well as how we (the blind and
>>the sighted) perpetuate it. Marc says, While I
>>agree with the thrust of this statement, I don't
>>exactly see how it's relevant.  We should be
>>looking at institutions and challenging dominant
>>discourses, but how does this relate to the
>>discussion? Do you believe that if we
>>successfully challenge the system, it will turn
>>out that all blind people have the same needs?
>>If not, then my point still stands: promoting
>>universal design will always result in some
>>adaptations being made which aren't necessary
>>for everyone involved.  And even though some
>>people will assume that every blind person needs
>>the adaptation, when in fact it is only a small
>>proportion of blind people that need the
>>adaptation, we should still fight for the
>>inclusion of everyone and not pay so much
>>attention to whether or not the public will
>>generalize. Jedi said, I can tell you now that
>>universal design is not as simple as creating
>>and sustaining certain kinds of accessibility. I
>>think the NFB understands that, and that's why
>>our philosophy sometimes seems to contradict
>>universal design in the first place. Marc says,
>>I just don't think this is right.  How often do
>>NFB leaders talk about making things as
>>accessible as possible, accessible even to the
>>blind person with little training and not too
>>much intelligence? Based on the comments I've
>>read on a dozen NFB lists, and based on the
>>press releases, presidential reports, and
>>banquet addresses, it seems to me that this
>>position isn't taken up all that often.  If I'm
>>wrong about this, please tell me where to look
>>to find promotion of universal design
>>principles. Regards, Marc ----- Original Message
>>----- From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> Sent: Saturday, August
>>14, 2010 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man
>>sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree >
>>Marc, > > The way to create a universal design
>>honoring all blind people is to not > only look
>>at the varying capacities of bdifferent blind
>>people, but to > also consider the systems into
>>which these capacities are imbedded and > from
>>which they are born. In so doing, we are more
>>able to piece out the > difference between a
>>real need versus a perceived need. Universal
>>design > doesn't necessarily mean that every
>>piece of (for example) visual > information be
>>conveyed non-visually. What it does mean is that
>>blind > people, no matter how it's done, have
>>access to whatever a sighted person > has access
>>to in such a way that the access is convenient,
>>cost-effective, > built in, and meets the needs
>>of most people.  Universal design doesn't > have
>>to be restricted to how products and services
>>are created and > maintained. Sometimes, it's
>>about changing the surrounding systems  such >
>>that there are no ideologies placing beings into
>>some kind of higherarchy. > As it stands,
>>sighted people still are considered more able
>>than us. In > order to create a universal design
>>system debunking that assumption, we > have to
>>question why and how we've come to believe the
>>inherent inability > of blind people in
>>comparison to the sighted in the first place, as
>>well > as how we (the blind and the sighted)
>>perpetuate it. > > This is really tough stuff to
>>communicate via e-mail, but I can tell you > now
>>that universal design is not as simple as
>>creating and sustaining > certain kinds of
>>accessibility. I think the NFB understands that,
>>and > that's why our philosophy sometimes seems
>>to contradict universal design > in the first
>>place. Am i making any sense at all? Probably
>>not, but it was > worth a try. > >
>>Respectfully, > Jedi > > -Original Message- >>
>>Jedi, > >> I prefaced my comment by saying that
>>it was not directed at you.  I >> wasn't >>
>>objecting to what you said so much as the idea
>>contained in the couple of >> sentences I quoted
>>from you, and idea that was contained within
>>the >> comments >> of many others. > >>
>>Regarding what you say about universal design,
>>that the NFB is "about >> creating a universal
>>design that honors the capacities of blind
>>people >> while >> meeting our accessibility
>>needs rather than creating a design that >>
>>assumes >> that we have more needs than we
>>really do", this strikes me as a >>
>>problematic >> way of understanding universal
>>design.  The question I would ask is: >>
>>capacities and needs of which blind people? > >>
>>The problem is that blind people, like all
>>people, have a tremendous >> amount >> of
>>variation in the capacities they possess.  A
>>blind person that is >> otherwise able-bodied,
>>who has been blind for a long period of time,
>>who >> has >> received a lot of training, who is
>>intelligent, confident, and so on is >> going to
>>have a different set of capacities than the
>>person who is newly >> blind, has had little
>>training, has mobility difficulties, and is hard
>>of >> hearing on top of it, and considering how
>>many lose their vision in old >> age, >> don't
>>think this picture is that out of the
>>ordinary. > >> So, who do we look at when we are
>>fighting for universal design that >> honours >>
>>the capacities of blind people without
>>exaggerating their needs? Do we >> look >> at
>>the capacities of the members of this list, or
>>do we look at the >> capacities of blind
>>seniors? > >> The problem I see with your
>>understanding of universal design is that it >>
>>isn't really universal.  For it to be universal,
>>you can't limit its >> application to a group of
>>people that possess a certain set of
>>capacities >> and needs. > >> Responding to Joe
>>who asked for more specifics on universal
>>design, I >> understand it as a guiding
>>principle, and ideal towards which we
>>struggle >> without actually attaining it,
>>something like equality, freedom, or >>
>>justice. >> Basically, as I stated, you design
>>institutions, products, processes, >> services
>>and so on so that they are as accessible as
>>possible to the >> greatest number of people
>>with the greatest variation in
>>abilities.  One >> slightly more concrete way of
>>thinking about this is that it involves >>
>>providing access to information in multiple
>>ways.  So at a controlled >> intersection, the
>>changing of the light is information that is
>>only >> presented visually.  Universal design
>>would promote the inclusion of an >> audible and
>>even a tactile signal that conveys the visual
>>information in >> alternative ways.  We
>>obviously will never make everything
>>completely >> accessible to everyone, but that
>>is what makes it an ideal.  It's >> something >>
>>towards which we ought to strive. > >> When
>>things are universally designed, they include
>>features that many >> many >> people will not
>>actually make use of.  A large number of blind
>>people may >> not need an audible signal, but
>>some of course will, at the very least, >>
>>find >> one very useful.  And the concern seems
>>to be that people will assume >> that >> because
>>some blind people have difficulty getting around
>>without adapting >> the environment somewhat,
>>then all blind people must need these >>
>>adaptations, >> and then this leads to negative
>>attitudes, discrimination, unemployment >>
>>and >> so on.  For my objections to this line of
>>argument, see my last post. > >> In closing, I
>>want to leave you with a quote from Jacobus
>>tenBroek, a >> fellow >> Albertan I might
>>add.  It suggests to me that tenBroek would
>>support the >> fight against unnecessary
>>obsticles that prevent us from travelling in >>
>>the >> manner in which we choose, including the
>>issue that sparked this debate. >> I >> also
>>think it's a nod towards universal design, the
>>kind that's actually >> universal. > >> tenBroek
>>writes: “No courts have held or even darkly
>>hinted that a blind >> man >> may rise in the
>>morning, help get the children off to school,
>>bid his >> wife >> goodbye,and proceed along the
>>streets and bus lines to his daily work, >>
>>without dog, cane, or guide, if such is his
>>habit or preference, now and >> then brushing a
>>tree or kicking a curb,but, notwithstanding,
>>proceeding >> with >> firm step and sure air,
>>knowing that he is part of the public for
>>whom >> the >> streets are built and maintained
>>in reasonable safety, by the help of his >>
>>taxes, and that he shares with others this part
>>of the world in which he, >> too,has a right to
>>live† (1966, 867­68). > >> tenBroek, Jacobus.
>>1966.. The right to live in the world: The
>>disabled in >> the >> law of torts.California
>>Law Review 54: 841­919. > >>> Best, > >> Marc >>
>>----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jedi"
>><loneblindjedi at samobile.net> >> To:
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >> Sent: Saturday, August
>>14, 2010 4:04 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind
>>man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with >>
>>tree > > >>> Marc, > >>> I feel that my comments
>>were taken out of context somewhat. I was
>>trying >>> to give both sides of the issue a
>>fair hearing. It's true that bringing >>>
>>attention to the incident in the way it's being
>>done might in fact >>> solidify negative
>>perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been
>>blind a >>> while shouldn't miss that
>>possibility unless they've been hiding under
>>a >>> rock a while. Whether we like it or not,
>>the public tends to view us >>> through their
>>own speculations of what their lives might be
>>like if they >>> were blinded immediately
>>without realizing that they have
>>considerable >>> gaps in knowledge regarding
>>blindness. What I also said is that the tree >>>
>>could have served as a legitimate obstacle for
>>this particular blind >>> man. >>> Though I
>>didn't say it directly, what I meant is that
>>perhaps he does >>> have >>> a cause to seek
>>remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best way
>>to >>> handle >>> things. In my opinion, this
>>incident is much like the woman who spilled >>>
>>hot coffee in her lap and sued
>>McDonnald's. > >>> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I
>>hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or >>>
>>at >>> least your understanding of it) seems to
>>be out of sync with universal >>> design
>>principles for the reason of not wanting blind
>>people to look >>> incompetent. I don't think
>>this is the case. I think the NFB does >>>
>>support >>> (and fights for) universal design,
>>but we're also about creating a >>> universal
>>design that honors the capacities of blind
>>people while >>> meeting >>> our accessibility
>>needs rather than creating a design that assumes
>>that >>> we >>> have more needs than we really
>>do. Does that make sense? > >>>
>>Respectfully, >>> Jedi > > >>> Original
>>message: >>>> I'm not very surprised, but
>>nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority >>>>
>>of >>>> the responses to this article.  Based on
>>one reporters account of this >>>> story, we
>>have rediculous proposals insisting that blind
>>people ought >>>> to >>>> walk around holding
>>one arm in the air, we have unjustified
>>claims >>>> about >>>> how >>>> fast the person
>>must have been walking, we have unfounded
>>assumptions >>>> about >>>> what this person may
>>have tried to do before escalating to a law
>>suit, >>>> and >>>> we have highly speculative
>>claims about how this one incident is going >>>>
>>to >>>> set every confident, independent blind
>>person back 20 years. > >>>> Jedi wrote the
>>following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she
>>only >>>> said >>>> first, and with brevity and
>>clarity, what many others said
>>afterwards. > >>>> However, suing could set a
>>bad precedent as it > would reaify the >>>>
>>notion >>>> that obstacles of any kind are
>>hazardous to > blind people because we >>>>
>>are >>>> blind; the public may take this
>>incident > and generalize it to all >>>>
>>obstacles whether they're really an >
>>inconvenience to one/all of us or >>>>
>>not. > >>>> I would raise three objections to
>>this line of thinking.  None of them >>>>
>>are >>>> devastating, but, taken together, I
>>think there is good reason to not >>>> be >>>>
>>completely convinced that people who fight these
>>sorts of battles are >>>> doing >>>> us all
>>harm. > >>>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to
>>think that we can predict how any one >>>>
>>individual, let alone the so called public, is
>>going to react to these >>>> sorts >>>> of
>>stories.  Someone reading the story might
>>respond more to the fact >>>> that >>>> the
>>person was travelling in the community
>>independently, she might >>>> focus >>>> on >>>>
>>the person's willingness to stand up for what he
>>believes, she might >>>> begin >>>> to think
>>about her own front yard tree with its low
>>hanging branches, >>>> or >>>> most likely in my
>>opinion, she won't think twice about it,
>>assuming she >>>> reads it at all.  The point is
>>that there is a lot of speculation >>>>
>>involved >>>> here, and we should be cautious in
>>the face of so much speculation. > >>>> 2. Let's
>>say, for the sake of argument, that there is
>>this thing called >>>> the >>>> public, and the
>>public generalizes from the experience of one
>>person >>>> and >>>> applies it to all of us
>>blind people.  The public believes that we
>>all >>>> need >>>> help getting around all these
>>obsticles, and eventually this leads to >>>>
>>discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base
>>our positions on what >>>> we >>>> judge to be
>>right, or should we base them on how the public
>>will react >>>> to >>>> them? Probably the
>>response will be to say that we should base
>>our >>>> positions >>>> on both what we think is
>>right and how the public will react.  Fine, >>>>
>>I'm >>>> not >>>> saying we should ignore public
>>reaction, but in the face of so much >>>>
>>speculation, see objection 1, where public
>>reaction is highly >>>> unpredictable, >>>> it
>>should play only a very minor role in deciding
>>what sort of >>>> activities >>>> we >>>> should
>>engage in. > >>>> 3. Even if the public does
>>develop negative misconceptions based on >>>>
>>these >>>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean
>>that people can't be educated.  Why >>>>
>>couldn't it be the case that by fighting to
>>remove these barriers, we >>>> suffer >>>> a
>>short-term increase in negative conceptions for
>>a decrease of such >>>> conceptions in the long
>>term? Get blind people out in the
>>community, >>>> and >>>> that's how you will
>>change attitudes.  The more people that feel
>>they >>>> can >>>> comfortably and independently
>>travel throughout the community, without >>>>
>>having first spent 8 months intensively studying
>>the latest >>>> hand-in-front-of-face technique
>>for detecting over-hanging obsticles, >>>>
>>the >>>> more people you will have out in the
>>community, the more relationships >>>> will >>>>
>>be developed, and the more likely you are to
>>change attitudes. > >>>> Many of the comments
>>thus far in this thread illustrate two of the
>>most >>>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB
>>policies are misguided.  First, >>>> the >>>>
>>failure to promote universal design.  Universal
>>design means creating >>>> institutions,
>>products, processes, services, and so on that
>>are as >>>> accessible as possible to the widest
>>number of people, without the user >>>> having
>>to possess special equipment or training.  If
>>environment A is >>>> only >>>> navigable by
>>some blind person who has been blind for ten
>>years, who >>>> has >>>> had >>>> training at an
>>NFB Center, and who has no other disabling
>>physical >>>> variations, and environment B is
>>navigable by someone recently blind, >>>>
>>with >>>> little training, and with a bad hip,
>>then we should adopt stances >>>> towards >>>>
>>design that bring us closer to environment
>>B.  It might be true that, >>>> at >>>> first,
>>taking these positions causes that foolish
>>public to believe >>>> that >>>> blindness
>>equals incompetence, but this leads me to my
>>second concern >>>> with >>>> NFB policy: there
>>is far too much concern with the variety of ways
>>that >>>> the >>>> public might think less of
>>us.  Of course public perceptions matter, >>>>
>>but >>>> they are highly unpredictable,
>>changeable over time, and should not >>>>
>>make >>>> us >>>> afraid to fight for what is
>>right. > >>>> I've been preaching this sort of
>>attitude for a while now, and I don't >>>>
>>really expect to change anyone's mind, but there
>>is another perspective >>>> to >>>> this story
>>that hasn't been aired fully. > >>>>
>>Best, > >>>> Marc > >>>> ----- Original Message
>>----- >>>> From: "Jedi"
>><loneblindjedi at samobile.net> >>>> To:
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org> >>>> Sent: Friday, August
>>13, 2010 7:30 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
>>Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in
>>with >>>> tree > > >>>>> The tree could be an
>>annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly
>>tall >>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall
>>blind people who don't use guide >>>>> dogs or
>>some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are
>>going to miss >>>>> those overhead branches.
>>However, suing could set a bad precedent
>>as >>>>> it >>>>> would reaify the notion that
>>obstacles of any kind are hazardous to >>>>>
>>blind >>>>> people because we are blind; the
>>public may take this incident and >>>>>
>>generalize it to all obstacles whether they're
>>really an inconvenience >>>>> to >>>>> one/all
>>of us or not. > >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>>
>>Jedi > >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> I thought
>>this story was interesting. What do you think?
>>Is the >>>>>> lawsuit appropriate? > >>>>>>
>>Arielle >>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel
>>over run-in with tree > >>>>>>
>>http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>
>> >>>>>> By bob mims > >>>>>> The Salt Lake
>>Tribune > >>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010
>>10:59PM >>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a
>>hot dog. Instead, as the blind man >>>>>> walked
>>toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year,
>>he got a face >>>>>> full of tree — and severe
>>neck injuries. > >>>>>> Now, the 36--year-old
>>Utah County man has filed a personal
>>injury >>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the
>>Wienerschnitzel at the corner of >>>>>> North
>>Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City. > >>>>>>
>>The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009,
>>Reynolds — who had been >>>>>> on his way to the
>>UUtah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got
>>off a >>>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to
>>get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man >>>>>> navigated
>>toward the entrance with his cane swinging in
>>front of him, >>>>>> he hit the tree, which the
>>suit contends had encroached on the >>>>>>
>>sidewalk. > >>>>>> “The tree struck him
>>squarely in the face and knocked him to
>>the >>>>>> ground,† states the suit, filed
>>Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to >>>>>>
>>grow >>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible
>>for Mr. Reynolds to detect its >>>>>> presence
>>by use of his cane.† > >>>>>> The suit argues
>>that because the tree was “rooted in the
>>ground far >>>>>> to >>>>>> one side of the
>>sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across
>>the >>>>>> sidewalk,† it had become a “clear
>>hazard.† > >>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified
>>reimbursement for past and future medical >>>>>>
>>expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering
>>stemming from alleged >>>>>> negligence in the
>>maintenance of the tree. > >>>>>> Along with
>>Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner
>>of the >>>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District
>>Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp. >>>>>> and
>>five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a
>>jury trial; 3rd >>>>>> District Judge Sandra
>>Peuler has been assigned the case. > >>>>>>
>>Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises
>>declined to comment >>>>>> Wednesday, noting he
>>had not yet been served with the suit. > >>>>>>
>>Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for
>>Irvine, Calif.-based >>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc.,
>>which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined
>>to >>>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of
>>this lawsuit and will look into >>>>>> it,† he
>>said. > >>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt
>>Lake City, would not comment, >>>>>>
>>either, >>>>>> citing the pending nature of the
>>litigation. > > >>>>>> __._,_.___ > > >>>>>>
>>-- >>>>>> Arielle Silverman >>>>>> President,
>>National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>
>>Phone:  602-502-2255 >>>>>> Email: >>>>>>
>>nabs.president at gmail.com >>>>>> Website: >>>>>>
>>www.nabslink.org > >>>>>>
>>_______________________________________________ >
>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>or get your account info for >>>>>>
>>nabs-l: >>>>>>
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> > >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the
>>System Access Mobile Network.  Visit >>>>>
>>www.serotek.com to learn more about
>>accessibility anywhere. >>>>>
>>_______________________________________________ >
>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
>>or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>
>
>                          David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 03:00:14 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:00:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQ_K2kaX-tbKk9wgksLtJxP8eOf2b+HVNkdFfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>
	<946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTikQ_K2kaX-tbKk9wgksLtJxP8eOf2b+HVNkdFfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=jpAW8MwpHKbxkJ-uZXdLz-bfou0YndCPMGL6j@mail.gmail.com>

I had a similar problem with getting lost and having someone guide me
to find my way...the next time, I got just as lost! This is what I
started doing.

Me: Man, I'm lost...I don't recognize anything around me.
Good Person: Can I help you find something?
Me: Yea, I'm looking for <address>. Can you tell me what address I'm at?
GP: You're at <number>. You need to go down the street to your left
and you'll find the place you're looking for.
Me: Thank you. Are there any plants, stairs, or other features that
will tell me that I'm there?
GP: Yea, they have two big crepe myrtles out front and the building
has six steps to the front door.
Me: Thank you!

Then I walk there, and when I find two crepe myrtles and a building
with six steps, I am 99 percent likely to have the right building.

Another method I've used is "Are you going that way? I would be
grateful if you'd let me walk with you." Then I walk beside them and
talk while I walk (I talk too much), and watch out for landmarks. I
have to pay attention to where I'm going because I'm following, but at
the same time, I don't have to try to remember directions (I have a
bad memory).

For following, I have a bit of a cheat in my favour. I can ee some
colours, so if the person is wearing a bright coloured shirt, such a
construction worker's orange vest or a pretty pink shirt, I just keep
the pink or orange blob in my sight and follow that. If you don't have
colour vision, use scent and/or sound. For example, at the bank today
there was a lady with high heels that made it very easy to follow her,
and I have a friend who wears very distinct cologne...as long as I can
smell his cologne, I know he's not far away. If I'm not sure where
someone is, I'll ask. For example, while my boyfriend and I are out, I
might say "Hey, Mike." and he'll say "Yea?" or "Here." and I'll know
exactly where he is based on his voice. This works better with people
you know well, because they'll know that you're just asking for some
audio feedback.

Hope that helps,
Jewel

On 8/14/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Kerri,
>
> It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing because you'll hear a
> noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground while you are
> walking, and then your cane will stick on everything and won't give
> you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of extra tips, you can
> change them as soon as you start to notice scratches on your tip, but
> if you want to be more economical, you can wait until the ring falls
> off.
>
> Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting help from a stranger,
> I'll almost always follow behind them instead of taking their arm, not
> only so I can know where we're going, but also because I don't know
> the person and don't want to be led somewhere I don't want to go
> without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone I know and trust,
> then a key factor in the decision is "is this a route I'll likely be
> taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow behind them using my
> cane so I can really be aware of where we're going and be able to
> remember the route for later trips. Most people will understand and
> not be offended if you say "I'd like to just follow you so I can
> remember how to get here next time". If it's not someplace I'm likely
> to go back to again, then the decision really depends on my mood, how
> crowded the place is, whether I want to be carrying something in my
> non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide inconvenient), etc. If it's a
> good friend they should be understanding that you might move a little
> slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm but that the
> practice and confidence is good for you.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Kerri,
>> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally remember the directions as
>> you are walking. Basically don't just let them guide but try to follow
>> along
>> the directions as you are walking. You have the right idea of traveling
>> independently "practice practice practice". After all practice makes
>> perfect.
>> Anmol
>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps
>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze
>> among flowers.
>> Hellen Keller
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
>>> Hi All!!
>>>
>>> I have some more questions!
>>>
>>> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has
>>> a Seko
>>> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in
>>> the NFB
>>> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped
>>> making this
>>> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the
>>> independence
>>> market there were like three different ones ranging in
>>> price from $45
>>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in
>>> the Quartz
>>> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between
>>> different
>>> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that
>>> is still
>>> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at
>>> convention and
>>> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in
>>> that area.
>>>
>>> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been
>>> told when
>>> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a
>>> free white
>>> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already
>>> on it. I
>>> bought five tips during convention and have been told how
>>> to put them
>>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my
>>> tip is
>>> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting
>>> to
>>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels
>>> more rough
>>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing
>>> down? If
>>> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing
>>> it?
>>>
>>> Also I want to make sure I know how to change
>>> properly...you basically
>>> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the
>>> new tip on
>>> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is
>>> that right?
>>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else
>>> I should
>>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto
>>> the cane
>>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the
>>> new tip on,
>>> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want
>>> to make
>>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on
>>> lol!
>>>
>>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting
>>> lost, and
>>> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try
>>> going to the
>>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the
>>> open
>>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and
>>> go straight.
>>> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting
>>> either a
>>> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped
>>> me to the
>>> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong
>>> side), and I
>>> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to
>>> try it again
>>> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there
>>> anything more I
>>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane
>>> and walked
>>> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was.
>>> I've read
>>> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person
>>> from veering
>>> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your
>>> arc by
>>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to
>>> side making
>>> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read
>>> that it
>>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my
>>> doorjamb and
>>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I
>>> put my cane
>>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried
>>> tapping in front
>>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my
>>> arc became
>>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of
>>> strain...like it felt
>>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural
>>> somehow...Is
>>> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I
>>> am asking
>>> these questions is because the more practice I get with my
>>> cane, the
>>> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there
>>> anything
>>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>>>
>>> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much
>>> practice with a
>>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I
>>> can get,
>>> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I
>>> use the
>>> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and
>>> I've been
>>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training
>>> what's up to me
>>> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice,
>>> practice. I
>>> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to
>>> talk to
>>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably
>>> better but
>>> other than those situations should I be using the cane on
>>> my own? Ever
>>> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my
>>> cane on
>>> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me
>>> gain
>>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is
>>> it hard from
>>> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside
>>> them? The
>>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want
>>> to put the
>>> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate
>>> them...
>>>
>>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the
>>> dumpster,and I end
>>> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help,
>>> should I
>>> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use
>>> my cane or
>>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because
>>> too many
>>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When
>>> someone
>>> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the
>>> next time I
>>> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At
>>> convention, by
>>> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which
>>> direction to go
>>> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I
>>> have a very
>>> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on
>>> my own.
>>>
>>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I
>>> think once
>>> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so
>>> this kind
>>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting
>>> out...I need
>>> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or
>>> just
>>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I
>>> don't want
>>> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation.
>>> But, if I am
>>> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>>>
>>> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either
>>> gotten
>>> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very
>>> well. It gives
>>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane
>>> more, and
>>> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my
>>> apartment
>>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the
>>> pool. My
>>> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool
>>> sometimes. They
>>> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my
>>> own. My
>>> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the
>>> gate at a
>>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers
>>> fiancae
>>> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on
>>> my left
>>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they
>>> were
>>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told
>>> him just
>>> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the
>>> way across
>>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had
>>> been guided.
>>>
>>> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know
>>> I've rambled a
>>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying
>>> to ask and
>>> why I am asking these questions!
>>>
>>> Thanks so much!
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From valandkayla at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 05:31:38 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 00:31:38 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com><3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus><AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
	<7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>
Message-ID: <D72B2E3C-5451-4E5A-A4ED-68B9F726F122@gmail.com>

I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause of the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to be the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to dog training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in breeds, etc.

2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then find a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now take that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would most likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities, and that does not mean that they should switch classes.  

Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train their dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i need to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me for it.
On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

> Mark,
> 
> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that might
> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a good
> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago I
> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my guide dog
> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions the
> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the traveling
> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case was
> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school while
> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie personally.
> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with enrollment
> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot see.
> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason than
> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I don't
> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least think
> twice before saying "no."
> 
> Best,
> 
> Joe
> 
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 05:54:59 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 23:54:59 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <D72B2E3C-5451-4E5A-A4ED-68B9F726F122@gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
	<7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>
	<D72B2E3C-5451-4E5A-A4ED-68B9F726F122@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=rLBRmaR53MywwP+ywa2jSQF9Ye9dDRaWvksMY@mail.gmail.com>

Val,
I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
attitude.
Beth

On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause of
> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>
> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to be
> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to dog
> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in breeds,
> etc.
>
> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then find
> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now take
> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would most
> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>
> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities, and
> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>
> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train their
> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>
> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i need
> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me for
> it.
> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>> might
>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>> good
>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago I
>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my guide
>> dog
>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>> the
>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the traveling
>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case was
>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>> while
>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>> personally.
>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with enrollment
>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>> see.
>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>> than
>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I don't
>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least think
>> twice before saying "no."
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 07:20:44 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 03:20:44 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=jpAW8MwpHKbxkJ-uZXdLz-bfou0YndCPMGL6j@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>
	<946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTikQ_K2kaX-tbKk9wgksLtJxP8eOf2b+HVNkdFfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=jpAW8MwpHKbxkJ-uZXdLz-bfou0YndCPMGL6j@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinA716on8-yAkUNVEaxF5r2iGrbweqSjeU_r7LD@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

Wow, awesome responses!

Thanks a ton...this helps clear up the issue so much for me!

Just one more question though. In her message, Arielle said she often
bases whether she follows someone or takes their arm by whether she
will likely be going to the same place or traveling the same route
again.

What about if you are just going to a restaurant?

Often, I go out to eat with my family. They park, we get out of the
car, then it's just a matter of walking to where the door is, and then
going to the seat in the restaurant. Usually, I just let Mom guide
me...but in a situation like this, should I be using my cane? It's not
necessarily a place I'll be going to again or a lot, but it's another
situation where I could be using my cane and getting more practice.
However, again I don't want to cause trouble or be extreme. So, what
do you usually do in situations where you just have to go from a
vehicle, to the door, then to a seat?

Kerri

On 8/14/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a similar problem with getting lost and having someone guide me
> to find my way...the next time, I got just as lost! This is what I
> started doing.
>
> Me: Man, I'm lost...I don't recognize anything around me.
> Good Person: Can I help you find something?
> Me: Yea, I'm looking for <address>. Can you tell me what address I'm at?
> GP: You're at <number>. You need to go down the street to your left
> and you'll find the place you're looking for.
> Me: Thank you. Are there any plants, stairs, or other features that
> will tell me that I'm there?
> GP: Yea, they have two big crepe myrtles out front and the building
> has six steps to the front door.
> Me: Thank you!
>
> Then I walk there, and when I find two crepe myrtles and a building
> with six steps, I am 99 percent likely to have the right building.
>
> Another method I've used is "Are you going that way? I would be
> grateful if you'd let me walk with you." Then I walk beside them and
> talk while I walk (I talk too much), and watch out for landmarks. I
> have to pay attention to where I'm going because I'm following, but at
> the same time, I don't have to try to remember directions (I have a
> bad memory).
>
> For following, I have a bit of a cheat in my favour. I can ee some
> colours, so if the person is wearing a bright coloured shirt, such a
> construction worker's orange vest or a pretty pink shirt, I just keep
> the pink or orange blob in my sight and follow that. If you don't have
> colour vision, use scent and/or sound. For example, at the bank today
> there was a lady with high heels that made it very easy to follow her,
> and I have a friend who wears very distinct cologne...as long as I can
> smell his cologne, I know he's not far away. If I'm not sure where
> someone is, I'll ask. For example, while my boyfriend and I are out, I
> might say "Hey, Mike." and he'll say "Yea?" or "Here." and I'll know
> exactly where he is based on his voice. This works better with people
> you know well, because they'll know that you're just asking for some
> audio feedback.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Jewel
>
> On 8/14/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Kerri,
>>
>> It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing because you'll hear a
>> noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground while you are
>> walking, and then your cane will stick on everything and won't give
>> you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of extra tips, you can
>> change them as soon as you start to notice scratches on your tip, but
>> if you want to be more economical, you can wait until the ring falls
>> off.
>>
>> Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting help from a stranger,
>> I'll almost always follow behind them instead of taking their arm, not
>> only so I can know where we're going, but also because I don't know
>> the person and don't want to be led somewhere I don't want to go
>> without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone I know and trust,
>> then a key factor in the decision is "is this a route I'll likely be
>> taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow behind them using my
>> cane so I can really be aware of where we're going and be able to
>> remember the route for later trips. Most people will understand and
>> not be offended if you say "I'd like to just follow you so I can
>> remember how to get here next time". If it's not someplace I'm likely
>> to go back to again, then the decision really depends on my mood, how
>> crowded the place is, whether I want to be carrying something in my
>> non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide inconvenient), etc. If it's a
>> good friend they should be understanding that you might move a little
>> slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm but that the
>> practice and confidence is good for you.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Kerri,
>>> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally remember the directions as
>>> you are walking. Basically don't just let them guide but try to follow
>>> along
>>> the directions as you are walking. You have the right idea of traveling
>>> independently "practice practice practice". After all practice makes
>>> perfect.
>>> Anmol
>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps
>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>> breeze
>>> among flowers.
>>> Hellen Keller
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
>>>> Hi All!!
>>>>
>>>> I have some more questions!
>>>>
>>>> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has
>>>> a Seko
>>>> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in
>>>> the NFB
>>>> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped
>>>> making this
>>>> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the
>>>> independence
>>>> market there were like three different ones ranging in
>>>> price from $45
>>>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in
>>>> the Quartz
>>>> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between
>>>> different
>>>> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that
>>>> is still
>>>> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at
>>>> convention and
>>>> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in
>>>> that area.
>>>>
>>>> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been
>>>> told when
>>>> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a
>>>> free white
>>>> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already
>>>> on it. I
>>>> bought five tips during convention and have been told how
>>>> to put them
>>>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my
>>>> tip is
>>>> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting
>>>> to
>>>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels
>>>> more rough
>>>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing
>>>> down? If
>>>> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing
>>>> it?
>>>>
>>>> Also I want to make sure I know how to change
>>>> properly...you basically
>>>> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the
>>>> new tip on
>>>> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is
>>>> that right?
>>>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else
>>>> I should
>>>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto
>>>> the cane
>>>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the
>>>> new tip on,
>>>> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want
>>>> to make
>>>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on
>>>> lol!
>>>>
>>>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting
>>>> lost, and
>>>> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try
>>>> going to the
>>>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the
>>>> open
>>>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and
>>>> go straight.
>>>> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting
>>>> either a
>>>> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped
>>>> me to the
>>>> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong
>>>> side), and I
>>>> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to
>>>> try it again
>>>> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there
>>>> anything more I
>>>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane
>>>> and walked
>>>> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was.
>>>> I've read
>>>> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person
>>>> from veering
>>>> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your
>>>> arc by
>>>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to
>>>> side making
>>>> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read
>>>> that it
>>>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my
>>>> doorjamb and
>>>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I
>>>> put my cane
>>>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried
>>>> tapping in front
>>>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my
>>>> arc became
>>>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of
>>>> strain...like it felt
>>>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural
>>>> somehow...Is
>>>> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I
>>>> am asking
>>>> these questions is because the more practice I get with my
>>>> cane, the
>>>> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there
>>>> anything
>>>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>>>>
>>>> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much
>>>> practice with a
>>>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I
>>>> can get,
>>>> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I
>>>> use the
>>>> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and
>>>> I've been
>>>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training
>>>> what's up to me
>>>> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice,
>>>> practice. I
>>>> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to
>>>> talk to
>>>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably
>>>> better but
>>>> other than those situations should I be using the cane on
>>>> my own? Ever
>>>> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my
>>>> cane on
>>>> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me
>>>> gain
>>>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is
>>>> it hard from
>>>> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside
>>>> them? The
>>>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want
>>>> to put the
>>>> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate
>>>> them...
>>>>
>>>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the
>>>> dumpster,and I end
>>>> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help,
>>>> should I
>>>> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use
>>>> my cane or
>>>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because
>>>> too many
>>>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When
>>>> someone
>>>> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the
>>>> next time I
>>>> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At
>>>> convention, by
>>>> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which
>>>> direction to go
>>>> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I
>>>> have a very
>>>> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on
>>>> my own.
>>>>
>>>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I
>>>> think once
>>>> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so
>>>> this kind
>>>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting
>>>> out...I need
>>>> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or
>>>> just
>>>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I
>>>> don't want
>>>> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation.
>>>> But, if I am
>>>> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>>>>
>>>> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either
>>>> gotten
>>>> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very
>>>> well. It gives
>>>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane
>>>> more, and
>>>> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my
>>>> apartment
>>>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the
>>>> pool. My
>>>> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool
>>>> sometimes. They
>>>> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my
>>>> own. My
>>>> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the
>>>> gate at a
>>>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers
>>>> fiancae
>>>> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on
>>>> my left
>>>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they
>>>> were
>>>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told
>>>> him just
>>>> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the
>>>> way across
>>>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had
>>>> been guided.
>>>>
>>>> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know
>>>> I've rambled a
>>>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying
>>>> to ask and
>>>> why I am asking these questions!
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much!
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 08:33:52 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 01:33:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinA716on8-yAkUNVEaxF5r2iGrbweqSjeU_r7LD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <407516.65646.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Usually in situations like going to a restaurant I will choose to go sighted guide because I do not want to run into people and cause bring attention to myself. Usually in restaurant the space is narrow and there is a large croud so it is better to just go sighted guide.
Hope this helps.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Sun, 8/15/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] some more questions...
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:20 AM
> Hi All!
> 
> Wow, awesome responses!
> 
> Thanks a ton...this helps clear up the issue so much for
> me!
> 
> Just one more question though. In her message, Arielle said
> she often
> bases whether she follows someone or takes their arm by
> whether she
> will likely be going to the same place or traveling the
> same route
> again.
> 
> What about if you are just going to a restaurant?
> 
> Often, I go out to eat with my family. They park, we get
> out of the
> car, then it's just a matter of walking to where the door
> is, and then
> going to the seat in the restaurant. Usually, I just let
> Mom guide
> me...but in a situation like this, should I be using my
> cane? It's not
> necessarily a place I'll be going to again or a lot, but
> it's another
> situation where I could be using my cane and getting more
> practice.
> However, again I don't want to cause trouble or be extreme.
> So, what
> do you usually do in situations where you just have to go
> from a
> vehicle, to the door, then to a seat?
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 8/14/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I had a similar problem with getting lost and having
> someone guide me
> > to find my way...the next time, I got just as lost!
> This is what I
> > started doing.
> >
> > Me: Man, I'm lost...I don't recognize anything around
> me.
> > Good Person: Can I help you find something?
> > Me: Yea, I'm looking for <address>. Can you tell
> me what address I'm at?
> > GP: You're at <number>. You need to go down the
> street to your left
> > and you'll find the place you're looking for.
> > Me: Thank you. Are there any plants, stairs, or other
> features that
> > will tell me that I'm there?
> > GP: Yea, they have two big crepe myrtles out front and
> the building
> > has six steps to the front door.
> > Me: Thank you!
> >
> > Then I walk there, and when I find two crepe myrtles
> and a building
> > with six steps, I am 99 percent likely to have the
> right building.
> >
> > Another method I've used is "Are you going that way? I
> would be
> > grateful if you'd let me walk with you." Then I walk
> beside them and
> > talk while I walk (I talk too much), and watch out for
> landmarks. I
> > have to pay attention to where I'm going because I'm
> following, but at
> > the same time, I don't have to try to remember
> directions (I have a
> > bad memory).
> >
> > For following, I have a bit of a cheat in my favour. I
> can ee some
> > colours, so if the person is wearing a bright coloured
> shirt, such a
> > construction worker's orange vest or a pretty pink
> shirt, I just keep
> > the pink or orange blob in my sight and follow that.
> If you don't have
> > colour vision, use scent and/or sound. For example, at
> the bank today
> > there was a lady with high heels that made it very
> easy to follow her,
> > and I have a friend who wears very distinct
> cologne...as long as I can
> > smell his cologne, I know he's not far away. If I'm
> not sure where
> > someone is, I'll ask. For example, while my boyfriend
> and I are out, I
> > might say "Hey, Mike." and he'll say "Yea?" or "Here."
> and I'll know
> > exactly where he is based on his voice. This works
> better with people
> > you know well, because they'll know that you're just
> asking for some
> > audio feedback.
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> > Jewel
> >
> > On 8/14/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Hi Kerri,
> >>
> >> It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing
> because you'll hear a
> >> noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground
> while you are
> >> walking, and then your cane will stick on
> everything and won't give
> >> you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of
> extra tips, you can
> >> change them as soon as you start to notice
> scratches on your tip, but
> >> if you want to be more economical, you can wait
> until the ring falls
> >> off.
> >>
> >> Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting
> help from a stranger,
> >> I'll almost always follow behind them instead of
> taking their arm, not
> >> only so I can know where we're going, but also
> because I don't know
> >> the person and don't want to be led somewhere I
> don't want to go
> >> without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone
> I know and trust,
> >> then a key factor in the decision is "is this a
> route I'll likely be
> >> taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow
> behind them using my
> >> cane so I can really be aware of where we're going
> and be able to
> >> remember the route for later trips. Most people
> will understand and
> >> not be offended if you say "I'd like to just
> follow you so I can
> >> remember how to get here next time". If it's not
> someplace I'm likely
> >> to go back to again, then the decision really
> depends on my mood, how
> >> crowded the place is, whether I want to be
> carrying something in my
> >> non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide
> inconvenient), etc. If it's a
> >> good friend they should be understanding that you
> might move a little
> >> slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm
> but that the
> >> practice and confidence is good for you.
> >>
> >> Arielle
> >>
> >> On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >>> Kerri,
> >>> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally
> remember the directions as
> >>> you are walking. Basically don't just let them
> guide but try to follow
> >>> along
> >>> the directions as you are walking. You have
> the right idea of traveling
> >>> independently "practice practice practice".
> After all practice makes
> >>> perfect.
> >>> Anmol
> >>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they
> never make me sad. Perhaps
> >>> there is just a touch of yearning at times;
> but it is vague, like a
> >>> breeze
> >>> among flowers.
> >>> Hellen Keller
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind
> Students mailing list"
> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
> >>>> Hi All!!
> >>>>
> >>>> I have some more questions!
> >>>>
> >>>> First, I have decided to get a braille
> watch. My friend has
> >>>> a Seko
> >>>> watch which she says is very good, but I
> can't find it in
> >>>> the NFB
> >>>> Independence market. She told me that they
> have stopped
> >>>> making this
> >>>> kind of watch. When I looked at the
> watches online in the
> >>>> independence
> >>>> market there were like three different
> ones ranging in
> >>>> price from $45
> >>>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure
> they were all in
> >>>> the Quartz
> >>>> brand...so I was wondering what the
> differences between
> >>>> different
> >>>> braille watches are and which one you
> recomend I get that
> >>>> is still
> >>>> being made today lol! I looked at my
> friends watch at
> >>>> convention and
> >>>> she told me how to read time on it so I
> should do fine in
> >>>> that area.
> >>>>
> >>>> How do you know when your cane tip needs
> changed? I've been
> >>>> told when
> >>>> the ring falls off. What does this mean?
> What ring? I got a
> >>>> free white
> >>>> cane from the NFB in January so it came
> with a tip already
> >>>> on it. I
> >>>> bought five tips during convention and
> have been told how
> >>>> to put them
> >>>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I
> am noticing my
> >>>> tip is
> >>>> scratched. It is still on but it's
> scratched. It's starting
> >>>> to
> >>>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I
> tap...it feels
> >>>> more rough
> >>>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this
> mean it's wearing
> >>>> down? If
> >>>> so, how much should you let it wear down
> before changing
> >>>> it?
> >>>>
> >>>> Also I want to make sure I know how to
> change
> >>>> properly...you basically
> >>>> twist the tip off where the rubber
> is...and then to put the
> >>>> new tip on
> >>>> you just stick the hole of the new tip
> onto the cane...is
> >>>> that right?
> >>>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is
> there anything else
> >>>> I should
> >>>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or
> does it fit onto
> >>>> the cane
> >>>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off?
> When putting the
> >>>> new tip on,
> >>>> do you have to twist it or anything like
> that? I just want
> >>>> to make
> >>>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't
> put a new tip on
> >>>> lol!
> >>>>
> >>>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating
> outside, getting
> >>>> lost, and
> >>>> going through parking lots. Last week, I
> decided to try
> >>>> going to the
> >>>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best.
> When I got to the
> >>>> open
> >>>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to
> center my cane and
> >>>> go straight.
> >>>> I must've really veered horribly because I
> ended up hitting
> >>>> either a
> >>>> gate or fence that I had never seen
> before. Someone helped
> >>>> me to the
> >>>> trash (I was going the right way but was
> on the wrong
> >>>> side), and I
> >>>> just had them guide me back to my building
> but I want to
> >>>> try it again
> >>>> and to improve so had some questions.
> First, is there
> >>>> anything more I
> >>>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to
> center my cane
> >>>> and walked
> >>>> faster though I know I could've walked
> faster than I was.
> >>>> I've read
> >>>> that an arc that is even from side to side
> keeps a person
> >>>> from veering
> >>>> to one side or the other. I read how you
> can measure your
> >>>> arc by
> >>>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the
> cane from side to
> >>>> side making
> >>>> sure the cane hits each side of the
> doorjamb. I also read
> >>>> that it
> >>>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder.
> So, I stood at my
> >>>> doorjamb and
> >>>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the
> other. Then, I
> >>>> put my cane
> >>>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it,
> then tried
> >>>> tapping in front
> >>>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in
> both instances my
> >>>> arc became
> >>>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to
> kind of
> >>>> strain...like it felt
> >>>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it
> didn't feel natural
> >>>> somehow...Is
> >>>> this feeling normal when first starting
> out? The reason I
> >>>> am asking
> >>>> these questions is because the more
> practice I get with my
> >>>> cane, the
> >>>> better, faster, and more efficient I will
> become. Is there
> >>>> anything
> >>>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering
> so much?
> >>>>
> >>>> Since I am not yet in training, and
> haven't had much
> >>>> practice with a
> >>>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all
> the practice I
> >>>> can get,
> >>>> when going out when should I take an arm
> and when should I
> >>>> use the
> >>>> cane? I know this question always brings
> up much debate and
> >>>> I've been
> >>>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't
> had training
> >>>> what's up to me
> >>>> isn't always the best because I need
> practice, practice,
> >>>> practice. I
> >>>> know that if I am in a very very noisy
> place or I want to
> >>>> talk to
> >>>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an
> arm is probably
> >>>> better but
> >>>> other than those situations should I be
> using the cane on
> >>>> my own? Ever
> >>>> since convention, when taking someones
> arm, I always use my
> >>>> cane on
> >>>> the other side which is nice but that
> isn't helping me
> >>>> gain
> >>>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster
> with the cane. Is
> >>>> it hard from
> >>>> the sighted persons perspective to follow
> or walk beside
> >>>> them? The
> >>>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much
> is I don't want
> >>>> to put the
> >>>> sighted person in an uncomfortable
> situation or irritate
> >>>> them...
> >>>>
> >>>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere,
> such as the
> >>>> dumpster,and I end
> >>>> up getting lost, when a sighted person
> asks if I need help,
> >>>> should I
> >>>> either follow/walk beside them, or get
> directions and use
> >>>> my cane or
> >>>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking
> this is because
> >>>> too many
> >>>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go
> somewhere. When
> >>>> someone
> >>>> assists me, I end up letting them guide
> me, and then the
> >>>> next time I
> >>>> have no idea where to go because I was
> just guided. At
> >>>> convention, by
> >>>> the end of the week, I still had no idea
> of even which
> >>>> direction to go
> >>>> because I was pretty much just guided all
> the time and I
> >>>> have a very
> >>>> hard time of knowing where to go if I
> don't use my cane on
> >>>> my own.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I
> offend anyone. I
> >>>> think once
> >>>> you've had training, you just know you can
> do whatever, so
> >>>> this kind
> >>>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone
> just starting
> >>>> out...I need
> >>>> practice, practice, practice. And what is
> always easiest or
> >>>> just
> >>>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best
> for me because I
> >>>> don't want
> >>>> to put the sighted person in an
> uncomfortable situation.
> >>>> But, if I am
> >>>> guided all the time I don't get that
> practice I need!
> >>>>
> >>>> The few times I have used my cane on my
> own and either
> >>>> gotten
> >>>> directions, or followed someone, I have
> done very very
> >>>> well. It gives
> >>>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me
> to use my cane
> >>>> more, and
> >>>> makes it so I actually like using my cane!
> For example, my
> >>>> apartment
> >>>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a
> little to get to the
> >>>> pool. My
> >>>> parents live nearby, and like to come to
> the pool
> >>>> sometimes. They
> >>>> called me, and I walked to the pool using
> my cane all on my
> >>>> own. My
> >>>> parents were sitting all the way across
> the pool from the
> >>>> gate at a
> >>>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to
> guide me, my mothers
> >>>> fiancae
> >>>> just gave me directions. He told me to
> keep these poles on
> >>>> my left
> >>>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic
> table where they
> >>>> were
> >>>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I
> successfully told
> >>>> him just
> >>>> like that how to reverse and get back to
> the gate all the
> >>>> way across
> >>>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do
> that if I had
> >>>> been guided.
> >>>>
> >>>> I know this is a very long, detailed
> message and I know
> >>>> I've rambled a
> >>>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of
> what I am trying
> >>>> to ask and
> >>>> why I am asking these questions!
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks so much!
> >>>> Kerri
> >>>>
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
> or get your
> >>>> account info for nabs-l:
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
> get your account info for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Arielle Silverman
> >> President, National Association of Blind Students
> >> Phone:  602-502-2255
> >> Email:
> >> nabs.president at gmail.com
> >> Website:
> >> www.nabslink.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ~Jewel
> > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
> > nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> 


      



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 15 08:35:18 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 01:35:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinA716on8-yAkUNVEaxF5r2iGrbweqSjeU_r7LD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <791172.25264.qm@web53804.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

One more thing I ment to mention: this would also go for any situations where there is a croud.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Sun, 8/15/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] some more questions...
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010, 2:20 AM
> Hi All!
> 
> Wow, awesome responses!
> 
> Thanks a ton...this helps clear up the issue so much for
> me!
> 
> Just one more question though. In her message, Arielle said
> she often
> bases whether she follows someone or takes their arm by
> whether she
> will likely be going to the same place or traveling the
> same route
> again.
> 
> What about if you are just going to a restaurant?
> 
> Often, I go out to eat with my family. They park, we get
> out of the
> car, then it's just a matter of walking to where the door
> is, and then
> going to the seat in the restaurant. Usually, I just let
> Mom guide
> me...but in a situation like this, should I be using my
> cane? It's not
> necessarily a place I'll be going to again or a lot, but
> it's another
> situation where I could be using my cane and getting more
> practice.
> However, again I don't want to cause trouble or be extreme.
> So, what
> do you usually do in situations where you just have to go
> from a
> vehicle, to the door, then to a seat?
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 8/14/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I had a similar problem with getting lost and having
> someone guide me
> > to find my way...the next time, I got just as lost!
> This is what I
> > started doing.
> >
> > Me: Man, I'm lost...I don't recognize anything around
> me.
> > Good Person: Can I help you find something?
> > Me: Yea, I'm looking for <address>. Can you tell
> me what address I'm at?
> > GP: You're at <number>. You need to go down the
> street to your left
> > and you'll find the place you're looking for.
> > Me: Thank you. Are there any plants, stairs, or other
> features that
> > will tell me that I'm there?
> > GP: Yea, they have two big crepe myrtles out front and
> the building
> > has six steps to the front door.
> > Me: Thank you!
> >
> > Then I walk there, and when I find two crepe myrtles
> and a building
> > with six steps, I am 99 percent likely to have the
> right building.
> >
> > Another method I've used is "Are you going that way? I
> would be
> > grateful if you'd let me walk with you." Then I walk
> beside them and
> > talk while I walk (I talk too much), and watch out for
> landmarks. I
> > have to pay attention to where I'm going because I'm
> following, but at
> > the same time, I don't have to try to remember
> directions (I have a
> > bad memory).
> >
> > For following, I have a bit of a cheat in my favour. I
> can ee some
> > colours, so if the person is wearing a bright coloured
> shirt, such a
> > construction worker's orange vest or a pretty pink
> shirt, I just keep
> > the pink or orange blob in my sight and follow that.
> If you don't have
> > colour vision, use scent and/or sound. For example, at
> the bank today
> > there was a lady with high heels that made it very
> easy to follow her,
> > and I have a friend who wears very distinct
> cologne...as long as I can
> > smell his cologne, I know he's not far away. If I'm
> not sure where
> > someone is, I'll ask. For example, while my boyfriend
> and I are out, I
> > might say "Hey, Mike." and he'll say "Yea?" or "Here."
> and I'll know
> > exactly where he is based on his voice. This works
> better with people
> > you know well, because they'll know that you're just
> asking for some
> > audio feedback.
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> > Jewel
> >
> > On 8/14/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Hi Kerri,
> >>
> >> It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing
> because you'll hear a
> >> noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground
> while you are
> >> walking, and then your cane will stick on
> everything and won't give
> >> you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of
> extra tips, you can
> >> change them as soon as you start to notice
> scratches on your tip, but
> >> if you want to be more economical, you can wait
> until the ring falls
> >> off.
> >>
> >> Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting
> help from a stranger,
> >> I'll almost always follow behind them instead of
> taking their arm, not
> >> only so I can know where we're going, but also
> because I don't know
> >> the person and don't want to be led somewhere I
> don't want to go
> >> without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone
> I know and trust,
> >> then a key factor in the decision is "is this a
> route I'll likely be
> >> taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow
> behind them using my
> >> cane so I can really be aware of where we're going
> and be able to
> >> remember the route for later trips. Most people
> will understand and
> >> not be offended if you say "I'd like to just
> follow you so I can
> >> remember how to get here next time". If it's not
> someplace I'm likely
> >> to go back to again, then the decision really
> depends on my mood, how
> >> crowded the place is, whether I want to be
> carrying something in my
> >> non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide
> inconvenient), etc. If it's a
> >> good friend they should be understanding that you
> might move a little
> >> slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm
> but that the
> >> practice and confidence is good for you.
> >>
> >> Arielle
> >>
> >> On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >>> Kerri,
> >>> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally
> remember the directions as
> >>> you are walking. Basically don't just let them
> guide but try to follow
> >>> along
> >>> the directions as you are walking. You have
> the right idea of traveling
> >>> independently "practice practice practice".
> After all practice makes
> >>> perfect.
> >>> Anmol
> >>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they
> never make me sad. Perhaps
> >>> there is just a touch of yearning at times;
> but it is vague, like a
> >>> breeze
> >>> among flowers.
> >>> Hellen Keller
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
> >>>> To: "National Association of Blind
> Students mailing list"
> >>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
> >>>> Hi All!!
> >>>>
> >>>> I have some more questions!
> >>>>
> >>>> First, I have decided to get a braille
> watch. My friend has
> >>>> a Seko
> >>>> watch which she says is very good, but I
> can't find it in
> >>>> the NFB
> >>>> Independence market. She told me that they
> have stopped
> >>>> making this
> >>>> kind of watch. When I looked at the
> watches online in the
> >>>> independence
> >>>> market there were like three different
> ones ranging in
> >>>> price from $45
> >>>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure
> they were all in
> >>>> the Quartz
> >>>> brand...so I was wondering what the
> differences between
> >>>> different
> >>>> braille watches are and which one you
> recomend I get that
> >>>> is still
> >>>> being made today lol! I looked at my
> friends watch at
> >>>> convention and
> >>>> she told me how to read time on it so I
> should do fine in
> >>>> that area.
> >>>>
> >>>> How do you know when your cane tip needs
> changed? I've been
> >>>> told when
> >>>> the ring falls off. What does this mean?
> What ring? I got a
> >>>> free white
> >>>> cane from the NFB in January so it came
> with a tip already
> >>>> on it. I
> >>>> bought five tips during convention and
> have been told how
> >>>> to put them
> >>>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I
> am noticing my
> >>>> tip is
> >>>> scratched. It is still on but it's
> scratched. It's starting
> >>>> to
> >>>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I
> tap...it feels
> >>>> more rough
> >>>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this
> mean it's wearing
> >>>> down? If
> >>>> so, how much should you let it wear down
> before changing
> >>>> it?
> >>>>
> >>>> Also I want to make sure I know how to
> change
> >>>> properly...you basically
> >>>> twist the tip off where the rubber
> is...and then to put the
> >>>> new tip on
> >>>> you just stick the hole of the new tip
> onto the cane...is
> >>>> that right?
> >>>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is
> there anything else
> >>>> I should
> >>>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or
> does it fit onto
> >>>> the cane
> >>>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off?
> When putting the
> >>>> new tip on,
> >>>> do you have to twist it or anything like
> that? I just want
> >>>> to make
> >>>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't
> put a new tip on
> >>>> lol!
> >>>>
> >>>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating
> outside, getting
> >>>> lost, and
> >>>> going through parking lots. Last week, I
> decided to try
> >>>> going to the
> >>>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best.
> When I got to the
> >>>> open
> >>>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to
> center my cane and
> >>>> go straight.
> >>>> I must've really veered horribly because I
> ended up hitting
> >>>> either a
> >>>> gate or fence that I had never seen
> before. Someone helped
> >>>> me to the
> >>>> trash (I was going the right way but was
> on the wrong
> >>>> side), and I
> >>>> just had them guide me back to my building
> but I want to
> >>>> try it again
> >>>> and to improve so had some questions.
> First, is there
> >>>> anything more I
> >>>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to
> center my cane
> >>>> and walked
> >>>> faster though I know I could've walked
> faster than I was.
> >>>> I've read
> >>>> that an arc that is even from side to side
> keeps a person
> >>>> from veering
> >>>> to one side or the other. I read how you
> can measure your
> >>>> arc by
> >>>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the
> cane from side to
> >>>> side making
> >>>> sure the cane hits each side of the
> doorjamb. I also read
> >>>> that it
> >>>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder.
> So, I stood at my
> >>>> doorjamb and
> >>>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the
> other. Then, I
> >>>> put my cane
> >>>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it,
> then tried
> >>>> tapping in front
> >>>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in
> both instances my
> >>>> arc became
> >>>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to
> kind of
> >>>> strain...like it felt
> >>>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it
> didn't feel natural
> >>>> somehow...Is
> >>>> this feeling normal when first starting
> out? The reason I
> >>>> am asking
> >>>> these questions is because the more
> practice I get with my
> >>>> cane, the
> >>>> better, faster, and more efficient I will
> become. Is there
> >>>> anything
> >>>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering
> so much?
> >>>>
> >>>> Since I am not yet in training, and
> haven't had much
> >>>> practice with a
> >>>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all
> the practice I
> >>>> can get,
> >>>> when going out when should I take an arm
> and when should I
> >>>> use the
> >>>> cane? I know this question always brings
> up much debate and
> >>>> I've been
> >>>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't
> had training
> >>>> what's up to me
> >>>> isn't always the best because I need
> practice, practice,
> >>>> practice. I
> >>>> know that if I am in a very very noisy
> place or I want to
> >>>> talk to
> >>>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an
> arm is probably
> >>>> better but
> >>>> other than those situations should I be
> using the cane on
> >>>> my own? Ever
> >>>> since convention, when taking someones
> arm, I always use my
> >>>> cane on
> >>>> the other side which is nice but that
> isn't helping me
> >>>> gain
> >>>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster
> with the cane. Is
> >>>> it hard from
> >>>> the sighted persons perspective to follow
> or walk beside
> >>>> them? The
> >>>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much
> is I don't want
> >>>> to put the
> >>>> sighted person in an uncomfortable
> situation or irritate
> >>>> them...
> >>>>
> >>>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere,
> such as the
> >>>> dumpster,and I end
> >>>> up getting lost, when a sighted person
> asks if I need help,
> >>>> should I
> >>>> either follow/walk beside them, or get
> directions and use
> >>>> my cane or
> >>>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking
> this is because
> >>>> too many
> >>>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go
> somewhere. When
> >>>> someone
> >>>> assists me, I end up letting them guide
> me, and then the
> >>>> next time I
> >>>> have no idea where to go because I was
> just guided. At
> >>>> convention, by
> >>>> the end of the week, I still had no idea
> of even which
> >>>> direction to go
> >>>> because I was pretty much just guided all
> the time and I
> >>>> have a very
> >>>> hard time of knowing where to go if I
> don't use my cane on
> >>>> my own.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I
> offend anyone. I
> >>>> think once
> >>>> you've had training, you just know you can
> do whatever, so
> >>>> this kind
> >>>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone
> just starting
> >>>> out...I need
> >>>> practice, practice, practice. And what is
> always easiest or
> >>>> just
> >>>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best
> for me because I
> >>>> don't want
> >>>> to put the sighted person in an
> uncomfortable situation.
> >>>> But, if I am
> >>>> guided all the time I don't get that
> practice I need!
> >>>>
> >>>> The few times I have used my cane on my
> own and either
> >>>> gotten
> >>>> directions, or followed someone, I have
> done very very
> >>>> well. It gives
> >>>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me
> to use my cane
> >>>> more, and
> >>>> makes it so I actually like using my cane!
> For example, my
> >>>> apartment
> >>>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a
> little to get to the
> >>>> pool. My
> >>>> parents live nearby, and like to come to
> the pool
> >>>> sometimes. They
> >>>> called me, and I walked to the pool using
> my cane all on my
> >>>> own. My
> >>>> parents were sitting all the way across
> the pool from the
> >>>> gate at a
> >>>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to
> guide me, my mothers
> >>>> fiancae
> >>>> just gave me directions. He told me to
> keep these poles on
> >>>> my left
> >>>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic
> table where they
> >>>> were
> >>>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I
> successfully told
> >>>> him just
> >>>> like that how to reverse and get back to
> the gate all the
> >>>> way across
> >>>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do
> that if I had
> >>>> been guided.
> >>>>
> >>>> I know this is a very long, detailed
> message and I know
> >>>> I've rambled a
> >>>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of
> what I am trying
> >>>> to ask and
> >>>> why I am asking these questions!
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks so much!
> >>>> Kerri
> >>>>
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options
> or get your
> >>>> account info for nabs-l:
> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or
> get your account info for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Arielle Silverman
> >> President, National Association of Blind Students
> >> Phone:  602-502-2255
> >> Email:
> >> nabs.president at gmail.com
> >> Website:
> >> www.nabslink.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get
> your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ~Jewel
> > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
> > nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
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> 


      



From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 12:03:15 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 08:03:15 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com><946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com><AANLkTikQ_K2kaX-tbKk9wgksLtJxP8eOf2b+HVNkdFfQ@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTi=jpAW8MwpHKbxkJ-uZXdLz-bfou0YndCPMGL6j@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinA716on8-yAkUNVEaxF5r2iGrbweqSjeU_r7LD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F97F3A903DB7469C8670DD0E5B20C108@D9P3ZND1>

I don't think wanting to use your cane or choosing to challenge yourself in 
a restaurant is at all extreme. It'll give your the practice you're looking 
for, and you'll become accustomed to depending on yourself and the cane.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] some more questions...


> Hi All!
>
> Wow, awesome responses!
>
> Thanks a ton...this helps clear up the issue so much for me!
>
> Just one more question though. In her message, Arielle said she often
> bases whether she follows someone or takes their arm by whether she
> will likely be going to the same place or traveling the same route
> again.
>
> What about if you are just going to a restaurant?
>
> Often, I go out to eat with my family. They park, we get out of the
> car, then it's just a matter of walking to where the door is, and then
> going to the seat in the restaurant. Usually, I just let Mom guide
> me...but in a situation like this, should I be using my cane? It's not
> necessarily a place I'll be going to again or a lot, but it's another
> situation where I could be using my cane and getting more practice.
> However, again I don't want to cause trouble or be extreme. So, what
> do you usually do in situations where you just have to go from a
> vehicle, to the door, then to a seat?
>
> Kerri
>
> On 8/14/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I had a similar problem with getting lost and having someone guide me
>> to find my way...the next time, I got just as lost! This is what I
>> started doing.
>>
>> Me: Man, I'm lost...I don't recognize anything around me.
>> Good Person: Can I help you find something?
>> Me: Yea, I'm looking for <address>. Can you tell me what address I'm at?
>> GP: You're at <number>. You need to go down the street to your left
>> and you'll find the place you're looking for.
>> Me: Thank you. Are there any plants, stairs, or other features that
>> will tell me that I'm there?
>> GP: Yea, they have two big crepe myrtles out front and the building
>> has six steps to the front door.
>> Me: Thank you!
>>
>> Then I walk there, and when I find two crepe myrtles and a building
>> with six steps, I am 99 percent likely to have the right building.
>>
>> Another method I've used is "Are you going that way? I would be
>> grateful if you'd let me walk with you." Then I walk beside them and
>> talk while I walk (I talk too much), and watch out for landmarks. I
>> have to pay attention to where I'm going because I'm following, but at
>> the same time, I don't have to try to remember directions (I have a
>> bad memory).
>>
>> For following, I have a bit of a cheat in my favour. I can ee some
>> colours, so if the person is wearing a bright coloured shirt, such a
>> construction worker's orange vest or a pretty pink shirt, I just keep
>> the pink or orange blob in my sight and follow that. If you don't have
>> colour vision, use scent and/or sound. For example, at the bank today
>> there was a lady with high heels that made it very easy to follow her,
>> and I have a friend who wears very distinct cologne...as long as I can
>> smell his cologne, I know he's not far away. If I'm not sure where
>> someone is, I'll ask. For example, while my boyfriend and I are out, I
>> might say "Hey, Mike." and he'll say "Yea?" or "Here." and I'll know
>> exactly where he is based on his voice. This works better with people
>> you know well, because they'll know that you're just asking for some
>> audio feedback.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>> Jewel
>>
>> On 8/14/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Kerri,
>>>
>>> It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing because you'll hear a
>>> noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground while you are
>>> walking, and then your cane will stick on everything and won't give
>>> you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of extra tips, you can
>>> change them as soon as you start to notice scratches on your tip, but
>>> if you want to be more economical, you can wait until the ring falls
>>> off.
>>>
>>> Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting help from a stranger,
>>> I'll almost always follow behind them instead of taking their arm, not
>>> only so I can know where we're going, but also because I don't know
>>> the person and don't want to be led somewhere I don't want to go
>>> without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone I know and trust,
>>> then a key factor in the decision is "is this a route I'll likely be
>>> taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow behind them using my
>>> cane so I can really be aware of where we're going and be able to
>>> remember the route for later trips. Most people will understand and
>>> not be offended if you say "I'd like to just follow you so I can
>>> remember how to get here next time". If it's not someplace I'm likely
>>> to go back to again, then the decision really depends on my mood, how
>>> crowded the place is, whether I want to be carrying something in my
>>> non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide inconvenient), etc. If it's a
>>> good friend they should be understanding that you might move a little
>>> slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm but that the
>>> practice and confidence is good for you.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,
>>>> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally remember the directions 
>>>> as
>>>> you are walking. Basically don't just let them guide but try to follow
>>>> along
>>>> the directions as you are walking. You have the right idea of traveling
>>>> independently "practice practice practice". After all practice makes
>>>> perfect.
>>>> Anmol
>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. 
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>> breeze
>>>> among flowers.
>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
>>>>> Hi All!!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have some more questions!
>>>>>
>>>>> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has
>>>>> a Seko
>>>>> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in
>>>>> the NFB
>>>>> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped
>>>>> making this
>>>>> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the
>>>>> independence
>>>>> market there were like three different ones ranging in
>>>>> price from $45
>>>>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in
>>>>> the Quartz
>>>>> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between
>>>>> different
>>>>> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that
>>>>> is still
>>>>> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at
>>>>> convention and
>>>>> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in
>>>>> that area.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been
>>>>> told when
>>>>> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a
>>>>> free white
>>>>> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already
>>>>> on it. I
>>>>> bought five tips during convention and have been told how
>>>>> to put them
>>>>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my
>>>>> tip is
>>>>> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting
>>>>> to
>>>>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels
>>>>> more rough
>>>>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing
>>>>> down? If
>>>>> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing
>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also I want to make sure I know how to change
>>>>> properly...you basically
>>>>> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the
>>>>> new tip on
>>>>> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is
>>>>> that right?
>>>>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else
>>>>> I should
>>>>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto
>>>>> the cane
>>>>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the
>>>>> new tip on,
>>>>> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want
>>>>> to make
>>>>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on
>>>>> lol!
>>>>>
>>>>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting
>>>>> lost, and
>>>>> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try
>>>>> going to the
>>>>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the
>>>>> open
>>>>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and
>>>>> go straight.
>>>>> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting
>>>>> either a
>>>>> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped
>>>>> me to the
>>>>> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong
>>>>> side), and I
>>>>> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to
>>>>> try it again
>>>>> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there
>>>>> anything more I
>>>>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane
>>>>> and walked
>>>>> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was.
>>>>> I've read
>>>>> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person
>>>>> from veering
>>>>> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your
>>>>> arc by
>>>>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to
>>>>> side making
>>>>> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read
>>>>> that it
>>>>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my
>>>>> doorjamb and
>>>>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I
>>>>> put my cane
>>>>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried
>>>>> tapping in front
>>>>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my
>>>>> arc became
>>>>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of
>>>>> strain...like it felt
>>>>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural
>>>>> somehow...Is
>>>>> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I
>>>>> am asking
>>>>> these questions is because the more practice I get with my
>>>>> cane, the
>>>>> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there
>>>>> anything
>>>>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much
>>>>> practice with a
>>>>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I
>>>>> can get,
>>>>> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I
>>>>> use the
>>>>> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and
>>>>> I've been
>>>>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training
>>>>> what's up to me
>>>>> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice,
>>>>> practice. I
>>>>> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to
>>>>> talk to
>>>>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably
>>>>> better but
>>>>> other than those situations should I be using the cane on
>>>>> my own? Ever
>>>>> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my
>>>>> cane on
>>>>> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me
>>>>> gain
>>>>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is
>>>>> it hard from
>>>>> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside
>>>>> them? The
>>>>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want
>>>>> to put the
>>>>> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate
>>>>> them...
>>>>>
>>>>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the
>>>>> dumpster,and I end
>>>>> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help,
>>>>> should I
>>>>> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use
>>>>> my cane or
>>>>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because
>>>>> too many
>>>>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When
>>>>> someone
>>>>> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the
>>>>> next time I
>>>>> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At
>>>>> convention, by
>>>>> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which
>>>>> direction to go
>>>>> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I
>>>>> have a very
>>>>> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on
>>>>> my own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I
>>>>> think once
>>>>> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so
>>>>> this kind
>>>>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting
>>>>> out...I need
>>>>> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or
>>>>> just
>>>>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I
>>>>> don't want
>>>>> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation.
>>>>> But, if I am
>>>>> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>>>>>
>>>>> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either
>>>>> gotten
>>>>> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very
>>>>> well. It gives
>>>>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane
>>>>> more, and
>>>>> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my
>>>>> apartment
>>>>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the
>>>>> pool. My
>>>>> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool
>>>>> sometimes. They
>>>>> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my
>>>>> own. My
>>>>> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the
>>>>> gate at a
>>>>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers
>>>>> fiancae
>>>>> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on
>>>>> my left
>>>>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they
>>>>> were
>>>>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told
>>>>> him just
>>>>> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the
>>>>> way across
>>>>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had
>>>>> been guided.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know
>>>>> I've rambled a
>>>>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying
>>>>> to ask and
>>>>> why I am asking these questions!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much!
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 



From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sat Aug 14 13:24:35 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 08:24:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimAf4PeVTcgvW_niy-TfX7hHM0W2VdAf+DZnauR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000164431086@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Assuming that the law is on the side of the guy filing the suit, at what point does it become defensible to say that we 
don't have the right to travel because our safety can't be guaranteed?  The long term answer is for us to have devices 
that help us detect such things, and some of us have tried to work in that direction.  

On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:30:51 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

>Dennis,
>  But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
>hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
>pedestrian?
>  With respect,
>Kirt

>On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hello Jessica,
>> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your face
>> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you must
>> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>>
>> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear concerning
>> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions the
>> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the injuries.
>> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
>> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
>> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
>> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
>> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
>> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
>> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be dismissed
>> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge.  If
>> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
>> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge says
>> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include the
>> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of law
>> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
>> England, Canada and the U.S.
>> Best,
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jess sA Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane but
>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew the
>>>
>>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it would
>>>
>>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out the
>>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for five
>>>
>>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>> Jessica
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>>>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree  and severe neck injuries.
>>>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds  who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind  got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>>>
>>>> 
The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,
 states the suit, filed Tuesday. 
The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.

>>>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was 
rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,
 it had become a 
clear hazard.

>>>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. 
We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,
 he said.
>>>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>
>>>
>>>> __._,_.___
>>>
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>

>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
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>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 16:33:42 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:33:42 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=rLBRmaR53MywwP+ywa2jSQF9Ye9dDRaWvksMY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
	<7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>
	<D72B2E3C-5451-4E5A-A4ED-68B9F726F122@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=rLBRmaR53MywwP+ywa2jSQF9Ye9dDRaWvksMY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiknNS7GDTt8UQxHmnwka5-auBBpU3Rug3F_PSzR@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Val and all,

I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
confrontational"?

Arielle

On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
> Val,
> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
> attitude.
> Beth
>
> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause of
>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>
>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to be
>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>> dog
>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>> breeds,
>> etc.
>>
>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>> find
>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now take
>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would most
>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>
>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities, and
>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>
>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>> their
>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>
>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>> need
>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>> for
>> it.
>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>> might
>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>> good
>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago I
>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my guide
>>> dog
>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>> the
>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>> traveling
>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case was
>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>> while
>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>> personally.
>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>> enrollment
>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>> see.
>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>> than
>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I don't
>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least think
>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From valandkayla at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 18:02:01 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:02:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiknNS7GDTt8UQxHmnwka5-auBBpU3Rug3F_PSzR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
	<7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>
	<D72B2E3C-5451-4E5A-A4ED-68B9F726F122@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=rLBRmaR53MywwP+ywa2jSQF9Ye9dDRaWvksMY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiknNS7GDTt8UQxHmnwka5-auBBpU3Rug3F_PSzR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9026BE32-B98E-46BF-9119-118E81263C0E@gmail.com>

Hi all,

Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on training various service dogs.

You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.  

Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.  It helps to have the support from the NFB.


Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

> Hi Val and all,
> 
> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
> confrontational"?
> 
> Arielle
> 
> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Val,
>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>> attitude.
>> Beth
>> 
>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause of
>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>> 
>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to be
>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>> dog
>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>> breeds,
>>> etc.
>>> 
>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>> find
>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now take
>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would most
>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>> 
>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities, and
>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>> 
>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>> their
>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>> 
>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>> need
>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>> for
>>> it.
>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Mark,
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>> might
>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>> good
>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago I
>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my guide
>>>> dog
>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>> the
>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>> traveling
>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case was
>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>> while
>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>> personally.
>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>> enrollment
>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>> see.
>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>> than
>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I don't
>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least think
>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 18:22:53 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 14:22:53 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <9026BE32-B98E-46BF-9119-118E81263C0E@gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
	<7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>
	<D72B2E3C-5451-4E5A-A4ED-68B9F726F122@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=rLBRmaR53MywwP+ywa2jSQF9Ye9dDRaWvksMY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiknNS7GDTt8UQxHmnwka5-auBBpU3Rug3F_PSzR@mail.gmail.com>
	<9026BE32-B98E-46BF-9119-118E81263C0E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikcaHXmNER4AQJJYVBSt9BjKjzBG-8YPDCRBR-B@mail.gmail.com>

Val!

Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

Justin

On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>
> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
> training various service dogs.
>
> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>
> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>
> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>
>
> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>> Hi Val and all,
>>
>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>> confrontational"?
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Val,
>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>> attitude.
>>> Beth
>>>
>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>> of
>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>>
>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>> be
>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>> dog
>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>> breeds,
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>> find
>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>> take
>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>> most
>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>>
>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>> and
>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>>
>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>> their
>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>>
>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>> need
>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>> for
>>>> it.
>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>> might
>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>>> good
>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>> I
>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>> guide
>>>>> dog
>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>> the
>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>> traveling
>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>> was
>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>> while
>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>> personally.
>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>> enrollment
>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>> see.
>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>> than
>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>> think
>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
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From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Sun Aug 15 18:32:54 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 13:32:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <auto-000164431086@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <B677AD57C620421AAE3FC4E0B192E8A7@PC185582706413>

Hi List

i havent been keeping up with this topic but i have a question. Was this guy 
even hurt or was his pride jeopardized? had he had experience on this 
particular sidewalk?

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> Assuming that the law is on the side of the guy filing the suit, at what 
> point does it become defensible to say that we
> don't have the right to travel because our safety can't be guaranteed? 
> The long term answer is for us to have devices
> that help us detect such things, and some of us have tried to work in that 
> direction.
>
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2010 21:30:51 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
>
>>Dennis,
>>  But couldn't there be room to argue if this was, in fact, a
>>hazardous condition or just negligence on the part of the blind
>>pedestrian?
>>  With respect,
>>Kirt
>
>>On 8/13/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hello Jessica,
>>> Do you really walk around all the time with your arm up guarding your 
>>> face
>>> to ensure that you don't run into anything at face level.  If so, you 
>>> must
>>> look quite strange to sighted people, and your arm must be very tired.
>>>
>>> Seriously though, speaking as a lawyer, the law is quite clear 
>>> concerning
>>> hazardous conditions, and when injuries result from hazardous conditions 
>>> the
>>> party or parties who created the condition are responsible for the 
>>> injuries.
>>> The only question is which party is responsible for the hazard in this
>>> particular jurisdiction, because this varies from state to state.  The
>>> responsible party will be either the city, the building occupant or the
>>> building owner, or possibly a combination of all three.  The lawyer
>>> representing the injured party does not get to choose who he believes is
>>> responsible, because that is a decision for the court.  As a result all
>>> possible responsible parties must be sued, and the case will be 
>>> dismissed
>>> against the non responsible parties, but this must be done by the judge. 
>>> If
>>> the attorney were to decide for example, that in his opinion only the
>>> building owner is responsible and he then gets to court and the judge 
>>> says
>>> that the city is actually responsible and the attorney did not include 
>>> the
>>> city in the suit, the attorney has committed malpractice.  This area of 
>>> law
>>> is called torts, and this is how it has worked for hundreds of years in
>>> England, Canada and the U.S.
>>> Best,
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jess sA Mobile" <jess28 at samobile.net>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>>> tree
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> This is ridiculous   the guy should have been using not only his cane 
>>>> but
>>>> he should have also had his arm up in a protective way so that he knew 
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> tree was going to be coming up. The city may not be able to do anything
>>>> because especially if the tree roots are going under the sidewalk it 
>>>> would
>>>>
>>>> most likely cost them to much to have to cut up the sidewalk pull out 
>>>> the
>>>> tree and redo the sidewalk. I lived on the West Side of Salt Lake for 
>>>> five
>>>>
>>>> years. And, I did see that sometimes.
>>>> Jessica
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Jedi
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:31 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>>>> tree
>>>>
>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to
>>>> blind people because we are blind; the public may take this incident
>>>> and generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an
>>>> inconvenience to one/all of us or not.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>>> By bob mims
>>>>
>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>>
>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>> full of tree  and severe neck injuries.
>>>>
>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>>
>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds  who had been
>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind  got off a
>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>> sidewalk.
>>>>
>>>>> 
The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>> ground,
 states the suit, filed Tuesday. 
The tree was allowed to grow
>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>> presence by use of his cane.

>>>>
>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was 
rooted in the ground far to
>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>> sidewalk,
 it had become a 
clear hazard.

>>>>
>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>>
>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>> eatery, Reynolds 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>>
>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>>
>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>> discuss the case. 
We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>> it,
 he said.
>>>>
>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> __._,_.___
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sun Aug 15 22:33:49 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 15:33:49 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <730547.71055.qm@web53801.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<677357AF557A4FD4901A189902404D3D@Ashley>
Message-ID: <00d501cb3cc9$eefc0d20$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Ashley,
What is echolocation?
Thanks,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> Hi Anmol and all,
> No don't place your hand in front at all times, but yes I think its 
> reasonable to place an arm up or something to protect you when you are 
> coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You can perceive this through 
> echolocation or if its familiar you remember the overhanging obstacle.
>
> Ashley
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
>> Good points Sean!
>> To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the branch from 
>> hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the branches are 
>> hanging out so does this mean we should walk around with our hand in 
>> frunt at all times?
>> Anmol
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>>> tree
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
>>> Thank you Dennis!
>>>
>>> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
>>>
>>> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
>>> he has a case. A
>>> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
>>> where the branch is
>>> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
>>> foreseeable, and
>>> somebody was negligent.
>>>
>>> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:
>>>
>>> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
>>> face is
>>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
>>> it certainly isn't
>>> a requirement of safe travel.
>>>
>>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
>>> seems reasonable. I
>>> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
>>> indicates that I have
>>> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
>>> it is certainly
>>> easier to navigate it more quickly.
>>>
>>> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
>>> neither should a
>>> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
>>> kind of thing
>>> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
>>> story more
>>> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
>>> just saying it's
>>> so.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sun Aug 15 23:52:47 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 16:52:47 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <20100814220412.23909.41575@web1>
Message-ID: <00d901cb3cd4$f6e75480$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Jedi,

Like Mark I am not addressing you specifically, but your post articulated 
some issues very clearly which were also voiced by others, so I am 
responding to your post generally.  It appears to me that universal design 
is being proposed on one hand and then argued against on the other hand.  In 
almost all cities in the United States public walkways by law are an 
excellent example of the concept of universal design, and the laws 
specifying safety precautions for public walkways demonstrate how this 
principle should work.  Public walkways are required by law to be kept clear 
of obstacles to prevent injury to all those using the walkways, and this 
includes objects placed on the walkways and objects hanging into and 
obstructing the walkways.  Even though the walkway is usually a sidewalk 
owned by the city, The store owner, landlord, or the city itself is 
responsible for keeping the walkway clear of obstacles, and if they fail in 
this duty they are responsible for the damages resulting from their failure. 
The universal design of a public walkway should clearly mandate that people 
of any height be able to walk along the sidewalk without injury, and this is 
what the safety laws are attempting to accomplish. In the late 1970's it 
became clear that public walkways were not as universal as needed, because 
people in wheelchairs could not navigate curbs, so this defect was 
corrected.  The governing design principle is that everyone must be able to 
safely and easily use the public walkway.  Clearly an obstacle at head 
height for some portion of the population is not safe, it has not been 
permitted for a long time, and it is contrary to the notion of universal 
design.

Some have stated directly or indirectly that a law suit is not the correct 
way to handle such a case.  What do people believe would be the correct way 
to handle it?

The message I am taking from most of the respondents of this post is that 
the sighted world should be permitted to do whatever they choose to do, and 
it is our responsibility as blind people to find a way to accommodate those 
decisions.  That is certainly a legitimate position and it would be embraced 
by those who label themselves libertarians, but it is not a position that I 
personally agree with.  In fact my position is the opposite.  My goal is to 
persuade the legislatures and courts to recognize our rights as blind 
people, and then to force everyone to comply with those laws, voluntarily if 
possible and if they move quickly, but if not then by suing them in court. 
That is what all businesses do, and it is the only language they understand, 
and it is what they immediately do when they themselves have a problem with 
another business.  This is how our system works today and it is how it has 
always worked.  Judges are the referees or umpires of the free enterprise 
system.  The courts are not filled with individuals suing businesses or 
suing one another as the newspapers would have you believe. The courts are 
actually filled with businesses suing other businesses.  Litigation is 
expensive, and individuals for the most part cannot afford it.  The idea 
that a lawyer is going to take a small case like the one being discussed 
here on a contingent fee arrangement is a fantasy.

Best,
Dennis



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> Marc,
>
> I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I was trying 
> to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true that bringing 
> attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in fact 
> solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been blind a 
> while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been hiding under a 
> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public tends to view us 
> through their own speculations of what their lives might be like if they 
> were blinded immediately without realizing that they have considerable 
> gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I also said is that the tree 
> could have served as a legitimate obstacle for this particular blind man. 
> Though I didn't say it directly, what I meant is that perhaps he does have 
> a cause to seek remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best way to handle 
> things. In my opinion, this incident is much like the woman who spilled 
> hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonnald's.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or at 
> least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with universal 
> design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people to look 
> incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB does support 
> (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about creating a 
> universal design that honors the capacities of blind people while meeting 
> our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that assumes that we 
> have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority 
>> of
>> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this
>> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought to
>> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims about 
>> how
>> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions 
>> about
>> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit, 
>> and
>> we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going to
>> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.
>
>> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only said
>> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.
>
>> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the notion
>> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we are
>> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
>> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or 
>> not.
>
>> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them 
>> are
>> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not be
>> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are 
>> doing
>> us all harm.
>
>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
>> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these 
>> sorts
>> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact 
>> that
>> the person was travelling in the community independently, she might focus 
>> on
>> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might 
>> begin
>> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, or
>> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
>> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation 
>> involved
>> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.
>
>> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called 
>> the
>> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person and
>> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all 
>> need
>> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
>> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what we
>> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react to
>> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our 
>> positions
>> on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, I'm 
>> not
>> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
>> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly 
>> unpredictable,
>> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of activities 
>> we
>> should engage in.
>
>> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on these
>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why
>> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we 
>> suffer
>> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
>> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, and
>> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they can
>> comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without
>> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
>> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, the
>> more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships 
>> will
>> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
>
>> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most
>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, the
>> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
>> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
>> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user
>> having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is 
>> only
>> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has 
>> had
>> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
>> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind, 
>> with
>> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances towards
>> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at
>> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe that
>> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern 
>> with
>> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that 
>> the
>> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, but
>> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not make 
>> us
>> afraid to fight for what is right.
>
>> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't
>> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective 
>> to
>> this story that hasn't been aired fully.
>
>> Best,
>
>> Marc
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>> tree
>
>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to 
>>> blind
>>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience 
>>> to
>>> one/all of us or not.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>
>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>> it,” he said.
>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>>>> __._,_.___
>
>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
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>
>
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From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 15 23:53:37 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:53:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <00d901cb3cd4$f6e75480$6601a8c0@server>
References: <20100814220412.23909.41575@web1>
	<00d901cb3cd4$f6e75480$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS139894402BA99182746E6D8B9A0@phx.gbl>

I do agree with your point what I have aproblem with is the way the article 
was written.   It makes it sound like the poor blind guy instead of oh the 
poor man that hit himself against a tree.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 7:52 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree

> Hello Jedi,
>
> Like Mark I am not addressing you specifically, but your post articulated 
> some issues very clearly which were also voiced by others, so I am 
> responding to your post generally.  It appears to me that universal design 
> is being proposed on one hand and then argued against on the other hand. 
> In almost all cities in the United States public walkways by law are an 
> excellent example of the concept of universal design, and the laws 
> specifying safety precautions for public walkways demonstrate how this 
> principle should work.  Public walkways are required by law to be kept 
> clear of obstacles to prevent injury to all those using the walkways, and 
> this includes objects placed on the walkways and objects hanging into and 
> obstructing the walkways.  Even though the walkway is usually a sidewalk 
> owned by the city, The store owner, landlord, or the city itself is 
> responsible for keeping the walkway clear of obstacles, and if they fail 
> in this duty they are responsible for the damages resulting from their 
> failure. The universal design of a public walkway should clearly mandate 
> that people of any height be able to walk along the sidewalk without 
> injury, and this is what the safety laws are attempting to accomplish. In 
> the late 1970's it became clear that public walkways were not as universal 
> as needed, because people in wheelchairs could not navigate curbs, so this 
> defect was corrected.  The governing design principle is that everyone 
> must be able to safely and easily use the public walkway.  Clearly an 
> obstacle at head height for some portion of the population is not safe, it 
> has not been permitted for a long time, and it is contrary to the notion 
> of universal design.
>
> Some have stated directly or indirectly that a law suit is not the correct 
> way to handle such a case.  What do people believe would be the correct 
> way to handle it?
>
> The message I am taking from most of the respondents of this post is that 
> the sighted world should be permitted to do whatever they choose to do, 
> and it is our responsibility as blind people to find a way to accommodate 
> those decisions.  That is certainly a legitimate position and it would be 
> embraced by those who label themselves libertarians, but it is not a 
> position that I personally agree with.  In fact my position is the 
> opposite.  My goal is to persuade the legislatures and courts to recognize 
> our rights as blind people, and then to force everyone to comply with 
> those laws, voluntarily if possible and if they move quickly, but if not 
> then by suing them in court. That is what all businesses do, and it is the 
> only language they understand, and it is what they immediately do when 
> they themselves have a problem with another business.  This is how our 
> system works today and it is how it has always worked.  Judges are the 
> referees or umpires of the free enterprise system.  The courts are not 
> filled with individuals suing businesses or suing one another as the 
> newspapers would have you believe. The courts are actually filled with 
> businesses suing other businesses.  Litigation is expensive, and 
> individuals for the most part cannot afford it.  The idea that a lawyer is 
> going to take a small case like the one being discussed here on a 
> contingent fee arrangement is a fantasy.
>
> Best,
> Dennis
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
>> Marc,
>>
>> I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I was trying 
>> to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true that bringing 
>> attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in fact 
>> solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has been blind a 
>> while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been hiding under a 
>> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public tends to view us 
>> through their own speculations of what their lives might be like if they 
>> were blinded immediately without realizing that they have considerable 
>> gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I also said is that the tree 
>> could have served as a legitimate obstacle for this particular blind man. 
>> Though I didn't say it directly, what I meant is that perhaps he does 
>> have a cause to seek remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best way to 
>> handle things. In my opinion, this incident is much like the woman who 
>> spilled hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonnald's.
>>
>> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB philosophy (or at 
>> least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with universal 
>> design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people to look 
>> incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB does support 
>> (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about creating a 
>> universal design that honors the capacities of blind people while meeting 
>> our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that assumes that 
>> we have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
>> Original message:
>>> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by a majority 
>>> of
>>> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters account of this
>>> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind people ought to
>>> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified claims about 
>>> how
>>> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded assumptions 
>>> about
>>> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a law suit, 
>>> and
>>> we have highly speculative claims about how this one incident is going 
>>> to
>>> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.
>>
>>> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; she only 
>>> said
>>> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said afterwards.
>>
>>> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would reaify the notion
>>> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people because we 
>>> are
>>> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
>>> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to one/all of us or 
>>> not.
>>
>>> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  None of them 
>>> are
>>> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good reason to not be
>>> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of battles are 
>>> doing
>>> us all harm.
>>
>>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
>>> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to react to these 
>>> sorts
>>> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to the fact 
>>> that
>>> the person was travelling in the community independently, she might 
>>> focus on
>>> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might 
>>> begin
>>> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging branches, or
>>> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, assuming she
>>> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation 
>>> involved
>>> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.
>>
>>> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this thing called 
>>> the
>>> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of one person and
>>> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes that we all 
>>> need
>>> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
>>> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our positions on what 
>>> we
>>> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public will react 
>>> to
>>> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our 
>>> positions
>>> on both what we think is right and how the public will react.  Fine, I'm 
>>> not
>>> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
>>> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly 
>>> unpredictable,
>>> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort of 
>>> activities we
>>> should engage in.
>>
>>> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions based on 
>>> these
>>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be educated.  Why
>>> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these barriers, we 
>>> suffer
>>> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
>>> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the community, and
>>> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that feel they 
>>> can
>>> comfortably and independently travel throughout the community, without
>>> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
>>> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging obsticles, 
>>> the
>>> more people you will have out in the community, the more relationships 
>>> will
>>> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
>>
>>> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two of the most
>>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are misguided.  First, 
>>> the
>>> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
>>> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
>>> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, without the user
>>> having to possess special equipment or training.  If environment A is 
>>> only
>>> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten years, who has 
>>> had
>>> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
>>> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone recently blind, 
>>> with
>>> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt stances 
>>> towards
>>> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be true that, at
>>> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to believe that
>>> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my second concern 
>>> with
>>> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety of ways that 
>>> the
>>> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions matter, but
>>> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and should not make 
>>> us
>>> afraid to fight for what is right.
>>
>>> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, and I don't
>>> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another perspective 
>>> to
>>> this story that hasn't been aired fully.
>>
>>> Best,
>>
>>> Marc
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>>> tree
>>
>>
>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who don't use guide
>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are going to miss
>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad precedent as it
>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to 
>>>> blind
>>>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>>>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an inconvenience 
>>>> to
>>>> one/all of us or not.
>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>
>>>>> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wienerschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>>> By bob mims
>>
>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>
>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>> full of tree — and severe neck injuries.
>>
>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>
>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds — who had been
>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind — got off a
>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in front of him,
>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>> sidewalk.
>>
>>>>> “The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>> ground,” states the suit, filed Tuesday. “The tree was allowed to grow
>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>> presence by use of his cane.”
>>
>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was “rooted in the ground far to
>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>> sidewalk,” it had become a “clear hazard.”
>>
>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and future medical
>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>
>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>> eatery, Reynolds’ 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake City Corp.
>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>
>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>
>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>> discuss the case. “We are unaware of this lawsuit and will look into
>>>>> it,” he said.
>>
>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not comment, either,
>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>
>>
>>>>> __._,_.___
>>
>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>>>> --
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>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Mon Aug 16 00:35:20 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:35:20 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
Message-ID: <20100816003520.15144.49599@web3>

I'm not Ashley, but I can tell you what echolation is.

Just like light, sound bounces off of, or is absorbed by, objects and 
then bounces back into our ears. Echolocation takes advantage of this 
in the same way sight does. The main difference is that, for the most 
part, there is an outside light source apart from the seer. In this 
case, the listener generally produces the sound that will bounce off of 
objects. Cane taps are usually sufficient. The quality of the sound 
tells the listener if it has been absorbed or bounced back and to what 
extent. Those who get good at it can even tell the shapes of the 
objects they listen to, where they are exactly located, and how far 
away they are. A listener can also gain this kind of information by 
using outside sound sources and listening to how those sounds bounce 
off of the objects they're close to.

The average echolocation user can generally tell where trees and bushes 
are, people, large buildings, glass windows and doors, metalic objects 
like cars, curbs, and other very noticeable things like that. Some of 
us can tell smaller objects such as street poles, planters, and other 
things of the sort. Echolocation takes practice. I had to study it in 
Louisiana (I studied under Roland Allen, who is quite adept at 
echolocation). I would love to study under Dan Kish, the king of 
echolocation, however.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hello Ashley,
> What is echolocation?
> Thanks,
> Dennis

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


>> Hi Anmol and all,
>> No don't place your hand in front at all times, but yes I think its
>> reasonable to place an arm up or something to protect you when you are
>> coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You can perceive this through
>> echolocation or if its familiar you remember the overhanging obstacle.

>> Ashley
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


>>> Good points Sean!
>>> To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the branch from
>>> hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the branches are
>>> hanging out so does this mean we should walk around with our hand in
>>> frunt at all times?
>>> Anmol


>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>> tree
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
>>>> Thank you Dennis!

>>>> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.

>>>> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
>>>> he has a case. A
>>>> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
>>>> where the branch is
>>>> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
>>>> foreseeable, and
>>>> somebody was negligent.

>>>> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:

>>>> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
>>>> face is
>>>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
>>>> it certainly isn't
>>>> a requirement of safe travel.

>>>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
>>>> seems reasonable. I
>>>> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
>>>> indicates that I have
>>>> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
>>>> it is certainly
>>>> easier to navigate it more quickly.

>>>> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
>>>> neither should a
>>>> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
>>>> kind of thing
>>>> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
>>>> story more
>>>> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
>>>> just saying it's
>>>> so.




>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> account info for nabs-l:
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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From oliver.doug1 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 01:19:53 2010
From: oliver.doug1 at gmail.com (Doug Oliver)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:19:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me
Message-ID: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>

Ok all. I have a slight issue here.
I have a counseler that is not wanting to work with me with my local blind agency.
I'm in the Dallas Texas area.
What's going on is I called her the other day to ask for her assistance with counseling as I've got some emotional issues that I'm needing help with and can't do it on my own.
She says she needs to do a program review as I'm not doing anything that they've trained me on,  and I have made a change in plan as I want to go back to school instead of just going back to work as finding work right now just isn't cutting it.
I don't want to put on my iep that I'm going to school as she'll want to cover the schooling, and I don't want to have to take 12 hours of classes.  I for me, since I've not been in school since I graduated high school, I want to start out with 1 class at a time and go from there.
What do I do?  as I have a meeting with her this Thursday.
I want to tell her exactly what I want, but not sure how to approach it without coming across as harsh, or as a jerk.
Please let me know what to do before I have to go meet with her Thursday.

From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 01:36:51 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:36:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
In-Reply-To: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS1335320E99C771289E7A258B9B0@phx.gbl>


The best thing that I can tell you is to have a clear plan.  After outlining 
your plan in a clear manor and if she refuses to do what you ask then 
politely ask for her response in written form.  Continue future 
conversations with her by e-mail so you have a copy of all communications. 
There is usually a policy "handbook" with each rehab agency that clearly 
defines what they will and will not do.   If it does follow the policies of 
that agency then you can quote the paragraph of the handbook to your 
counselor and if she's still unwilling to help take it to her supervisor. 
After all these resources are followed up you can then contact the 
commissioner of the agency or a complaint board.  There of course is a lot 
more to this depending on your situation.  If you would like to know more 
I'm sure our fellow students will also respond to this and I will be happy 
to help as well.
Respectfully,
Rob Blachowicz
 



From oliver.doug1 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 01:39:38 2010
From: oliver.doug1 at gmail.com (Doug Oliver)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:39:38 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
	<BAY130-DS1335320E99C771289E7A258B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <44358F6A64E945019338B248F6E16C90@computer>

thanks, everyone else please write in with your experiences too.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me


>
> The best thing that I can tell you is to have a clear plan.  After 
> outlining your plan in a clear manor and if she refuses to do what you ask 
> then politely ask for her response in written form.  Continue future 
> conversations with her by e-mail so you have a copy of all communications. 
> There is usually a policy "handbook" with each rehab agency that clearly 
> defines what they will and will not do.   If it does follow the policies 
> of that agency then you can quote the paragraph of the handbook to your 
> counselor and if she's still unwilling to help take it to her supervisor. 
> After all these resources are followed up you can then contact the 
> commissioner of the agency or a complaint board.  There of course is a lot 
> more to this depending on your situation.  If you would like to know more 
> I'm sure our fellow students will also respond to this and I will be happy 
> to help as well.
> Respectfully,
> Rob Blachowicz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oliver.doug1%40gmail.com 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 01:43:12 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:43:12 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
In-Reply-To: <44358F6A64E945019338B248F6E16C90@computer>
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer><BAY130-DS1335320E99C771289E7A258B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<44358F6A64E945019338B248F6E16C90@computer>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS345D086E9BD6CCDBC61C48B9B0@phx.gbl>

One really important thing I missed.  Try to stay away from getting actual 
emotional counsling from your rehab counsler.  If you have medicaid or 
medicare or some other type ofinsurance try to get this emotional counsling 
from a psychologist or certified social worker.  The psychologist or social 
worker can also write up a letter to the rehab counsler that says that your 
emotionally and mentally capable of taking one class but that any more 
classes than this would put to much pressure on you.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Doug Oliver" <oliver.doug1 at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:39 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me

> thanks, everyone else please write in with your experiences too.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 8:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
>
>
>>
>> The best thing that I can tell you is to have a clear plan.  After 
>> outlining your plan in a clear manor and if she refuses to do what you 
>> ask then politely ask for her response in written form.  Continue future 
>> conversations with her by e-mail so you have a copy of all 
>> communications. There is usually a policy "handbook" with each rehab 
>> agency that clearly defines what they will and will not do.   If it does 
>> follow the policies of that agency then you can quote the paragraph of 
>> the handbook to your counselor and if she's still unwilling to help take 
>> it to her supervisor. After all these resources are followed up you can 
>> then contact the commissioner of the agency or a complaint board.  There 
>> of course is a lot more to this depending on your situation.  If you 
>> would like to know more I'm sure our fellow students will also respond to 
>> this and I will be happy to help as well.
>> Respectfully,
>> Rob Blachowicz
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oliver.doug1%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From oliver.doug1 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 01:46:43 2010
From: oliver.doug1 at gmail.com (Doug Oliver)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:46:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer><BAY130-DS1335320E99C771289E7A258B9B0@phx.gbl><44358F6A64E945019338B248F6E16C90@computer>
	<BAY130-DS345D086E9BD6CCDBC61C48B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B3E520830F3645FFB38F774E0C3E681C@computer>

thing is I don't even want her involved with it.  I'm paying all of it with 
my financial aid, my schooling that is.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 8:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me


> One really important thing I missed.  Try to stay away from getting actual 
> emotional counsling from your rehab counsler.  If you have medicaid or 
> medicare or some other type ofinsurance try to get this emotional 
> counsling from a psychologist or certified social worker.  The 
> psychologist or social worker can also write up a letter to the rehab 
> counsler that says that your emotionally and mentally capable of taking 
> one class but that any more classes than this would put to much pressure 
> on you.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Doug Oliver" <oliver.doug1 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:39 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
>
>> thanks, everyone else please write in with your experiences too.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 8:36 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The best thing that I can tell you is to have a clear plan.  After 
>>> outlining your plan in a clear manor and if she refuses to do what you 
>>> ask then politely ask for her response in written form.  Continue future 
>>> conversations with her by e-mail so you have a copy of all 
>>> communications. There is usually a policy "handbook" with each rehab 
>>> agency that clearly defines what they will and will not do.   If it does 
>>> follow the policies of that agency then you can quote the paragraph of 
>>> the handbook to your counselor and if she's still unwilling to help take 
>>> it to her supervisor. After all these resources are followed up you can 
>>> then contact the commissioner of the agency or a complaint board.  There 
>>> of course is a lot more to this depending on your situation.  If you 
>>> would like to know more I'm sure our fellow students will also respond 
>>> to this and I will be happy to help as well.
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Rob Blachowicz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oliver.doug1%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oliver.doug1%40gmail.com 



From jess28 at samobile.net  Mon Aug 16 01:48:55 2010
From: jess28 at samobile.net (Jess sA Mobile)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 19:48:55 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
In-Reply-To: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
Message-ID: <061501cb3ce5$306c4390$9144cab0$@net>

Doug, 
The Plan you would be writing  is called an IPE or and Individual Plan for
Employment and not an  IEP or an Individual Education Plan.  In most states
they want you to fill out the FAFSA to help fund  your education as well as
the help that you would get from the state. Also, the FAFSA and the state
require you to at least go part time. Because generally they won't pay for
you just to take one class at a time and it would also take you forever to
receive your degree if you only did it one class at a time.  Also, in order
to get Financial aid you would need to go at least part time. Which is at
least six credits. 
Jessica
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Doug Oliver
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 7:20 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me

Ok all. I have a slight issue here.
I have a counseler that is not wanting to work with me with my local blind
agency.
I'm in the Dallas Texas area.
What's going on is I called her the other day to ask for her assistance with
counseling as I've got some emotional issues that I'm needing help with and
can't do it on my own.
She says she needs to do a program review as I'm not doing anything that
they've trained me on,  and I have made a change in plan as I want to go
back to school instead of just going back to work as finding work right now
just isn't cutting it.
I don't want to put on my iep that I'm going to school as she'll want to
cover the schooling, and I don't want to have to take 12 hours of classes.
I for me, since I've not been in school since I graduated high school, I
want to start out with 1 class at a time and go from there.
What do I do?  as I have a meeting with her this Thursday.
I want to tell her exactly what I want, but not sure how to approach it
without coming across as harsh, or as a jerk.
Please let me know what to do before I have to go meet with her Thursday.
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jess28%40samobile.ne
t



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 02:06:09 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:06:09 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
In-Reply-To: <061501cb3ce5$306c4390$9144cab0$@net>
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
	<061501cb3ce5$306c4390$9144cab0$@net>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS19D3DA3F173F166814F1028B9B0@phx.gbl>

If your nto asking for comission funding I don't see what the problem is.  I 
did the exact same thing for two semesters and paid for the two classes 
myself and the comissionjust bought equipment and other services.
 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 16 02:14:36 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:14:36 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
Message-ID: <3EB08888B262418CA5E3B3BA907AEE96@Ashley>

Doug,
I'm confused because you haven't told us your plan.  You need a plan so you 
can discuss your vocational goal with your counselor.  Further I'm confused
why you'd request your VR counselor's assistance
in getting counseling for your emotional issues.
If you're young you're still a dependent on your parent's income and their 
insurance should cover counseling.
If not you probably have Medicade and this also covers counseling services. 
Its not your VR counselor's job to get this psychological service although 
it would be helpful if she gave you some resources for mental health 
services.
I do hope you get those services though.

What do you want to go to school for? What
have they trained you on?
Its reasonable for a VR counselor to do a program review if you are not 
doing the agreed upon plan;
you can change your mind of course, everyone does change career goals, but 
you need to let VR know.  This VR goal will be in your individualized plan 
for employment, IPE.


Unless I'm missing something, I really don't see why its so bad you tell VR 
you're going to school.  Tell them what you're going for.  You say she'll 
want to cover the
schooling.  If so, can't you just say you have financial resources to cover 
schooling?  I don't think you are under any obligation to accept financial 
help from VR, but you should tell them you're attending school.

Do you have any college course work?
Its a bad time to look for work now but I hope you made the decission to 
attend school on several factors, not just that you are fed up looking for 
work; many people are frustrated with the job hunt now.

My counselor was glad she didn't have to cover my schooling.
In fact in my state VA, VR will not cover private or religious schools, nor 
will they cover you if your parent's income is above a certain amount.

As long as you have a clear plan, your counselor is supposed to follow it 
and support your VR goal.  Its not her job to pick it for you.  If she does 
not follow your plan, take it to her supervisor.

HTH,
Ashley

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Oliver" <oliver.doug1 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:19 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me


> Ok all. I have a slight issue here.
> I have a counseler that is not wanting to work with me with my local blind 
> agency.
> I'm in the Dallas Texas area.
> What's going on is I called her the other day to ask for her assistance 
> with counseling as I've got some emotional issues that I'm needing help 
> with and can't do it on my own.
> She says she needs to do a program review as I'm not doing anything that 
> they've trained me on,  and I have made a change in plan as I want to go 
> back to school instead of just going back to work as finding work right 
> now just isn't cutting it.
> I don't want to put on my iep that I'm going to school as she'll want to 
> cover the schooling, and I don't want to have to take 12 hours of classes. 
> I for me, since I've not been in school since I graduated high school, I 
> want to start out with 1 class at a time and go from there.
> What do I do?  as I have a meeting with her this Thursday.
> I want to tell her exactly what I want, but not sure how to approach it 
> without coming across as harsh, or as a jerk.
> Please let me know what to do before I have to go meet with her Thursday.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From oliver.doug1 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 02:37:31 2010
From: oliver.doug1 at gmail.com (Doug Oliver)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:37:31 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
	<3EB08888B262418CA5E3B3BA907AEE96@Ashley>
Message-ID: <DAA787D114804869A40EAC65916A4B4D@computer>

thing is she has stated that I can't be doing strictly school,  and that is 
my plan is to go back to school.  I'll ask her to give me some resources for 
counseling,  which might be helpful although another counselor paid for 
someone to be able to have counseling,  but I will have her look up some 
resources.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me


> Doug,
> I'm confused because you haven't told us your plan.  You need a plan so 
> you can discuss your vocational goal with your counselor.  Further I'm 
> confused
> why you'd request your VR counselor's assistance
> in getting counseling for your emotional issues.
> If you're young you're still a dependent on your parent's income and their 
> insurance should cover counseling.
> If not you probably have Medicade and this also covers counseling 
> services. Its not your VR counselor's job to get this psychological 
> service although it would be helpful if she gave you some resources for 
> mental health services.
> I do hope you get those services though.
>
> What do you want to go to school for? What
> have they trained you on?
> Its reasonable for a VR counselor to do a program review if you are not 
> doing the agreed upon plan;
> you can change your mind of course, everyone does change career goals, but 
> you need to let VR know.  This VR goal will be in your individualized plan 
> for employment, IPE.
>
>
> Unless I'm missing something, I really don't see why its so bad you tell 
> VR you're going to school.  Tell them what you're going for.  You say 
> she'll want to cover the
> schooling.  If so, can't you just say you have financial resources to 
> cover schooling?  I don't think you are under any obligation to accept 
> financial help from VR, but you should tell them you're attending school.
>
> Do you have any college course work?
> Its a bad time to look for work now but I hope you made the decission to 
> attend school on several factors, not just that you are fed up looking for 
> work; many people are frustrated with the job hunt now.
>
> My counselor was glad she didn't have to cover my schooling.
> In fact in my state VA, VR will not cover private or religious schools, 
> nor will they cover you if your parent's income is above a certain amount.
>
> As long as you have a clear plan, your counselor is supposed to follow it 
> and support your VR goal.  Its not her job to pick it for you.  If she 
> does not follow your plan, take it to her supervisor.
>
> HTH,
> Ashley
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Doug Oliver" <oliver.doug1 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:19 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me
>
>
>> Ok all. I have a slight issue here.
>> I have a counseler that is not wanting to work with me with my local 
>> blind agency.
>> I'm in the Dallas Texas area.
>> What's going on is I called her the other day to ask for her assistance 
>> with counseling as I've got some emotional issues that I'm needing help 
>> with and can't do it on my own.
>> She says she needs to do a program review as I'm not doing anything that 
>> they've trained me on,  and I have made a change in plan as I want to go 
>> back to school instead of just going back to work as finding work right 
>> now just isn't cutting it.
>> I don't want to put on my iep that I'm going to school as she'll want to 
>> cover the schooling, and I don't want to have to take 12 hours of 
>> classes. I for me, since I've not been in school since I graduated high 
>> school, I want to start out with 1 class at a time and go from there.
>> What do I do?  as I have a meeting with her this Thursday.
>> I want to tell her exactly what I want, but not sure how to approach it 
>> without coming across as harsh, or as a jerk.
>> Please let me know what to do before I have to go meet with her Thursday.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oliver.doug1%40gmail.com 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 16 02:55:00 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 22:55:00 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer><061501cb3ce5$306c4390$9144cab0$@net>
	<BAY130-DS19D3DA3F173F166814F1028B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3F5355834A38427D89052795F7D7FD7B@Ashley>

Hi Rob and all,
That's what happened with me.  Sometimes I was full time, others part time. 
When I took biology as a general ed requirement, I was part time.

Like you I just paid for it through family assistance on my own.

While in school the VR department just bought
me equipment and supplied other services such as a mobility specialist to 
help me orient to campus.

If the client is not asking for funding I don't see what the
problem is either.  Anyone, sighted or blind, goes back to school at any 
stage of life for a career change or to get their degree they never finished 
or obtained.
Its actually pretty common.  My sighted brother worked a while after high 
school and then years later went back to school to get an undergraduate 
degree
when he was ready to commit to school.  This college degree opened up more 
job opportunities for him.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me


> If your nto asking for comission funding I don't see what the problem is. 
> I did the exact same thing for two semesters and paid for the two classes 
> myself and the comissionjust bought equipment and other services.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 16 03:12:13 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:12:13 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer>
	<3EB08888B262418CA5E3B3BA907AEE96@Ashley>
	<DAA787D114804869A40EAC65916A4B4D@computer>
Message-ID: <712B6D3E85214C658E43AD64B7CC7C34@Ashley>

Doug,
Again, I hope you have a career goal in going back to school. Do some 
research on the career you want such as the salary, work environment, 
whether its a growing field and if possible talk to people working in that 
field.  This way you can talk about why this is a good career for you.

I think you might need an advocate.  Why is your counselor telling you that 
you can't
do "strictly school" if that will help you get a good job and better salary? 
Generally those who have obtained a BA/BS have more job opportunities and 
get paid more for doing the same work a non graduate has.

As long as you're not just going to school for the heck of it, but going for 
a real purpose related to your employment goal, then VR should be fine with 
that.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Doug Oliver" <oliver.doug1 at gmail.com>
To: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>; "National Association of 
Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me


> thing is she has stated that I can't be doing strictly school,  and that 
> is my plan is to go back to school.  I'll ask her to give me some 
> resources for counseling,  which might be helpful although another 
> counselor paid for someone to be able to have counseling,  but I will have 
> her look up some resources.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me
>
>
>> Doug,
>> I'm confused because you haven't told us your plan.  You need a plan so 
>> you can discuss your vocational goal with your counselor.  Further I'm 
>> confused
>> why you'd request your VR counselor's assistance
>> in getting counseling for your emotional issues.
>> If you're young you're still a dependent on your parent's income and 
>> their insurance should cover counseling.
>> If not you probably have Medicade and this also covers counseling 
>> services. Its not your VR counselor's job to get this psychological 
>> service although it would be helpful if she gave you some resources for 
>> mental health services.
>> I do hope you get those services though.
>>
>> What do you want to go to school for? What
>> have they trained you on?
>> Its reasonable for a VR counselor to do a program review if you are not 
>> doing the agreed upon plan;
>> you can change your mind of course, everyone does change career goals, 
>> but you need to let VR know.  This VR goal will be in your individualized 
>> plan for employment, IPE.
>>
>>
>> Unless I'm missing something, I really don't see why its so bad you tell 
>> VR you're going to school.  Tell them what you're going for.  You say 
>> she'll want to cover the
>> schooling.  If so, can't you just say you have financial resources to 
>> cover schooling?  I don't think you are under any obligation to accept 
>> financial help from VR, but you should tell them you're attending school.
>>
>> Do you have any college course work?
>> Its a bad time to look for work now but I hope you made the decission to 
>> attend school on several factors, not just that you are fed up looking 
>> for work; many people are frustrated with the job hunt now.
>>
>> My counselor was glad she didn't have to cover my schooling.
>> In fact in my state VA, VR will not cover private or religious schools, 
>> nor will they cover you if your parent's income is above a certain 
>> amount.
>>
>> As long as you have a clear plan, your counselor is supposed to follow it 
>> and support your VR goal.  Its not her job to pick it for you.  If she 
>> does not follow your plan, take it to her supervisor.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Ashley
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Doug Oliver" <oliver.doug1 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 9:19 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone thaqt can assist me
>>
>>
>>> Ok all. I have a slight issue here.
>>> I have a counseler that is not wanting to work with me with my local 
>>> blind agency.
>>> I'm in the Dallas Texas area.
>>> What's going on is I called her the other day to ask for her assistance 
>>> with counseling as I've got some emotional issues that I'm needing help 
>>> with and can't do it on my own.
>>> She says she needs to do a program review as I'm not doing anything that 
>>> they've trained me on,  and I have made a change in plan as I want to go 
>>> back to school instead of just going back to work as finding work right 
>>> now just isn't cutting it.
>>> I don't want to put on my iep that I'm going to school as she'll want to 
>>> cover the schooling, and I don't want to have to take 12 hours of 
>>> classes. I for me, since I've not been in school since I graduated high 
>>> school, I want to start out with 1 class at a time and go from there.
>>> What do I do?  as I have a meeting with her this Thursday.
>>> I want to tell her exactly what I want, but not sure how to approach it 
>>> without coming across as harsh, or as a jerk.
>>> Please let me know what to do before I have to go meet with her 
>>> Thursday.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oliver.doug1%40gmail.com
>
> 



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Mon Aug 16 04:02:40 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 21:02:40 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] IPhone and ITunes
Message-ID: <DA19F355F9F9434AB2852A472E7FA15B@stanford.edu>

Would someone who has an IPhone and synchronizes it with a PC using ITunes please email me off list?

Thanks,
Nicole

From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 04:34:27 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:34:27 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
In-Reply-To: <3F5355834A38427D89052795F7D7FD7B@Ashley>
References: <5DD8978BDFF24E8FB866BA62FE335AC7@computer><061501cb3ce5$306c4390$9144cab0$@net><BAY130-DS19D3DA3F173F166814F1028B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<3F5355834A38427D89052795F7D7FD7B@Ashley>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS6D6034729D82E4D2D7B688B9B0@phx.gbl>

Yes that's the cycle  of life.  Anyways are you on nfb newsline; if so the 
handbook for VR in texas should be on option 2 which is your state's 
information channel and select the comission .

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Ashley  Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 10:55 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me

> Hi Rob and all,
> That's what happened with me.  Sometimes I was full time, others part 
> time. When I took biology as a general ed requirement, I was part time.
>
> Like you I just paid for it through family assistance on my own.
>
> While in school the VR department just bought
> me equipment and supplied other services such as a mobility specialist to 
> help me orient to campus.
>
> If the client is not asking for funding I don't see what the
> problem is either.  Anyone, sighted or blind, goes back to school at any 
> stage of life for a career change or to get their degree they never 
> finished or obtained.
> Its actually pretty common.  My sighted brother worked a while after high 
> school and then years later went back to school to get an undergraduate 
> degree
> when he was ready to commit to school.  This college degree opened up more 
> job opportunities for him.
>
> Ashley
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 10:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help from anyone that can assist me
>
>
>> If your nto asking for comission funding I don't see what the problem is. 
>> I did the exact same thing for two semesters and paid for the two classes 
>> myself and the comissionjust bought equipment and other services.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From davidschool97 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 05:26:00 2010
From: davidschool97 at gmail.com (David Thomas)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:26:00 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] IPhone and ITunes
In-Reply-To: <DA19F355F9F9434AB2852A472E7FA15B@stanford.edu>
References: <DA19F355F9F9434AB2852A472E7FA15B@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FB1227EA-8884-48DB-9CB6-B37E079DEBEA@gmail.com>

I have an iPhone and I sink it with iTunes what do you need h
Help with from my iPhone

On Aug 15, 2010, at 11:02 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:

> Would someone who has an IPhone and synchronizes it with a PC using ITunes please email me off list?
> 
> Thanks,
> Nicole
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidschool97%40gmail.com


From davidschool97 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 14:28:07 2010
From: davidschool97 at gmail.com (David)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:28:07 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] IPhone and ITunes
In-Reply-To: <DA19F355F9F9434AB2852A472E7FA15B@stanford.edu>
References: <DA19F355F9F9434AB2852A472E7FA15B@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <BE9E152384944CED884498A3B263B202@Davidpc>

Hi it is David.
I have an Iphone and sinc it with windows.
What is your question and I would be happy to help.
you can contact me on skype skype name david.william.thomas1997
or just on E-mail davidschool97 at gmail.com
David Thomas
Owner and moderator of electronicsandmorefortheblind at 
electronicsfortheblind-request at emissives.com with subscribe in the subject 
line
Vice President of Paez Production Networks
subscribe to No Eyes required on iTunes e-mail me with any concerns at 
davidschool97 at gmail.com
Please note:
this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication 
is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the 
subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this 
message and/or any accompanying media.




--------------------------------------------------
From: "Nicole B. Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 11:02 PM
To: "NABS-L" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] IPhone and ITunes

> Would someone who has an IPhone and synchronizes it with a PC using ITunes 
> please email me off list?
>
> Thanks,
> Nicole
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidschool97%40gmail.com 



From gera1027 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 16:49:52 2010
From: gera1027 at gmail.com (Gerardo Corripio)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:49:52 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking psychology-related blogs and sharing article
Message-ID: <007f01cb3d63$0f461960$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>

Hi listers, especially psychology students or those like myself who have 
already graduated: I'm always in the search for blogs and sites of articles 
where I can continue learning about new topics, thus I recently discovered 
the blogs for
http://www.selfhelpmagazine.com/podcasts/rss.xml

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.rss
and began reading an article which I paste below; got trapped but can't find 
anywhere the continuation! Here it is in case I also get you guys trapped 
and hopes in finding how it ends and also in learning about new blogs you 
guys might have to offerp:
This Charming Psychopath

How to spot social predators before they attack.

By
Robert Hare,
published on January 01, 1994 - last reviewed on June 01, 2010

Psychology Today looks at Laughter

Jeffrey Dahmer. Ted Bundy. Hannibal Lecter. These are the psychopaths whose 
stunning lack of
conscience
 we see in the movies and in tabloids. Yet, as this report makes abundantly 
clear, these predators, both male and female, haunt our everyday lives at 
work,
at home, and in relationships. Here's how to find them before they find you.

She met him in a laundromat in London. He was open and friendly and they hit 
it off right away. From the start she thought he was hilarious. Of course,
she'd been lonely. The weather was grim and sleety and she didn't know a 
soul east of the Atlantic.

"Ah, travelers'
loneliness,"
Dan crooned sympathetically over dinner. "It's the worst."

After dessert he was embarrassed to discover he'd come without his wallet. 
She was more than happy to pay for dinner. At the pub, over drinks, he told 
her
he was a translator for the United Nations. He was, for now, between 
assignments.

Related Articles 



From brice.smith319 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 17:11:18 2010
From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:11:18 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] copyediting symbols
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=vyznJ3hjQtSrNTbtiqNht0pMuQdiRyB-5ywvz@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm taking a journalism class this semester, and one of the
requirements involves copyediting tests. According to the instructor
these are pencil editing tests using symbols that will be given out on
the first day of the class.

Has anyone used these before? I'm trying to figure out methods for
completing the work, and or If I need to come up with any adaptations
since this involves printed visual symbols.

-Brice


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 18:29:30 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:29:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] a couple more questions about travel/cane technique
Message-ID: <AANLkTimiceGA4wO=wFfdYUs1i5R2+dtx-5cpq61Zh8EF@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

I have a couple of more questions about travel, and proper arc/cane technique.

When you follow
someone, do you usually walk behind them or beside them? Do you find it
harder to hear the person if you are following behind them as they are
usually walking ahead of you with their back turned to you? Is it
easier to hear someone if you walk beside them?

Also, when doing a proper arc with the two-point touch technique is it
supposed to be/feel wide since it is covering both sides from shoulder
to shoulder? When doing a proper arc for the first time should it feel
a little strained/unnatural/too wide at first?

How do most of you do the open-palm technique? I was taught it once
very briefly at convention...the way I do it is I keep my palm facing
up, as flat as possible holding the cane with all my fingers wrapped
around it. I then move the cane with both my wrist and hand. I read
that your supposed to move the cane with only three fingers...but I
can't figure this out...it seems tricky and doesn't feel as
comfortable as moving both my hand and wrist does. How do all of you
do it?

Thanks,
Kerri


From valandkayla at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 18:41:34 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:41:34 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikcaHXmNER4AQJJYVBSt9BjKjzBG-8YPDCRBR-B@mail.gmail.com>
References: <EFE8C058-ED9A-462F-91B0-2825DC5520A7@gmail.com>
	<3CDD71F3DCCB4FB4AA3768C756036EE9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikNB60zZUwDQccq2ziWdW-Hz0L-uNy739XJBiKN@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFS46EEvoX51opspWAVj5hdp-S6za__Db4wOGZ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=oxo+vVuXiJ-PQDJp1Qx5WkDU1+HMoax0xwEq-@mail.gmail.com>
	<CE87BF47EAD145DCB3AA40D41CB01108@SonyPC>
	<7A16B50607434622BF9BEDED7D8F19A0@Rufus>
	<D72B2E3C-5451-4E5A-A4ED-68B9F726F122@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=rLBRmaR53MywwP+ywa2jSQF9Ye9dDRaWvksMY@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTiknNS7GDTt8UQxHmnwka5-auBBpU3Rug3F_PSzR@mail.gmail.com>
	<9026BE32-B98E-46BF-9119-118E81263C0E@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikcaHXmNER4AQJJYVBSt9BjKjzBG-8YPDCRBR-B@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F24BEF9-2D47-470C-B8AC-7C63A1376CEF@gmail.com>

Greetings all,

I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters, and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a rundown of what i told you guys.  

Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.  

The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about, wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for you.

Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

> Val!
> 
> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
> 
> Justin
> 
> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>> 
>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>> training various service dogs.
>> 
>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>> 
>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>> 
>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>> 
>> 
>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Val and all,
>>> 
>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>> confrontational"?
>>> 
>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Val,
>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>> attitude.
>>>> Beth
>>>> 
>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>>> of
>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>>> be
>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>>> dog
>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>>> breeds,
>>>>> etc.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>>> find
>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>>> take
>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>>> most
>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>>> and
>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>>> their
>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>>> need
>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>>> for
>>>>> it.
>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>>> might
>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>>> see.
>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com



From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Mon Aug 16 19:12:04 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:12:04 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <20100816191204.21924.1334@web2>

Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the 
training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane 
travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones, 
but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the 
cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Greetings all,

> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters, 
> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a 
> rundown of what i told you guys.

> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going 
> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can 
> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of 
> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will 
> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about, 
> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training 
> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable 
> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for you.

> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>> Val!

>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>> Justin

>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi all,

>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>> training various service dogs.

>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>> confrontational"?

>>>> Arielle

>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Val,
>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>> attitude.
>>>>> Beth

>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>>>> find
>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>>>> take
>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>>>> most
>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing


>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com


>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com


>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com



>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org

>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com


>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com


>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com


> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Mon Aug 16 19:15:30 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:15:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>

Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the 
training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets 
involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted students.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

> Respectfully,
> Jedi

> Original message:
>> Greetings all,

>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a
>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training
>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for you.

>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>> Val!

>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>> Justin

>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi all,

>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>> Arielle

>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing


>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com


>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com


>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com



>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org

>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com


>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com


>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com


>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
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From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 19:22:51 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:22:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>


Hello everyone,
This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus or no 
parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to offer health 
club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or in relm of 
the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice that I'm not 
aware of.
Rob 



From skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 19:28:33 2010
From: skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com (Karrie Kinstetter)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:28:33 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>

Rob,
If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to do 
what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire 
county...
What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them $20 
or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have no 
options... well... yeah.
Hth,
Karrie

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue

>
> Hello everyone,
> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus or 
> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to offer 
> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or in 
> relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice that 
> I'm not aware of.
> Rob
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5371 (20100816) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com





From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 19:31:59 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:31:59 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl>



Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know own 
cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only other 
answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
  --------------------------------------------------
From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue

> Rob,
> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to do 
> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire 
> county...
> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them $20 
> or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have no 
> options... well... yeah.
> Hth,
> Karrie
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus or 
>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to offer 
>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or in 
>> relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice that 
>> I'm not aware of.
>> Rob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 19:32:07 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:32:07 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikdPmznj9N_PCOcgA-erBN1OBKD7NtLam8gOyZ9@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rob:

I live in a mall town and though we odo have a bus it's pretty bad.

What I unfortunately have to do all the time is take cabs everywhere.
They are only like $5 each way so I've been told that's not bad
considering how expensive they are in other places. I also have to
rely on family and friends a lot too.

Hope that helps.
Kerri

On 8/16/10, Karrie Kinstetter <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Rob,
> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to do
> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire
> county...
> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them $20
> or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have no
> options... well... yeah.
> Hth,
> Karrie
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus or
>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to offer
>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or in
>> relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice that
>> I'm not aware of.
>> Rob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 19:34:27 2010
From: skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com (Karrie Kinstetter)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:34:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
	<BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>

I was going to suggest that as well.
Other than that, I'm not sure what else to tell you on this matter.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue

>
>
> Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know 
> own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only 
> other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
>  --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>> Rob,
>> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to do 
>> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire 
>> county...
>> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them 
>> $20 or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have no 
>> options... well... yeah.
>> Hth,
>> Karrie
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus or 
>>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to offer 
>>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or 
>>> in relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice 
>>> that I'm not aware of.
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5371 (20100816) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com





From spangler.robert at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 21:04:11 2010
From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:04:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <20100816003520.15144.49599@web3>
References: <20100816003520.15144.49599@web3>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinc26T7OR-O535g0y11RPsV_79Bhs-pnf-OULAY@mail.gmail.com>

The problem with this view is that we as blind people are labeled as
walking lawsuits.  My ability to get a job has been severely limited
by such laws as the ADA which, FORCE, companies to comply.  who would
want to hire someone who has a larger chance of potentially sueing
them?  I sure wouldn't.  I would wish to hire the person who is going
to cost my business less and will allow me to operate much more
efficiently.  that being said, I am able to walk into any business
with all of the equipment that I will need to conduct the job without
asking the company to buy it for me.  the utilization of force never
works; it will cause companies to look for ways around hiring us.

On 8/15/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> I'm not Ashley, but I can tell you what echolation is.
>
> Just like light, sound bounces off of, or is absorbed by, objects and
> then bounces back into our ears. Echolocation takes advantage of this
> in the same way sight does. The main difference is that, for the most
> part, there is an outside light source apart from the seer. In this
> case, the listener generally produces the sound that will bounce off of
> objects. Cane taps are usually sufficient. The quality of the sound
> tells the listener if it has been absorbed or bounced back and to what
> extent. Those who get good at it can even tell the shapes of the
> objects they listen to, where they are exactly located, and how far
> away they are. A listener can also gain this kind of information by
> using outside sound sources and listening to how those sounds bounce
> off of the objects they're close to.
>
> The average echolocation user can generally tell where trees and bushes
> are, people, large buildings, glass windows and doors, metalic objects
> like cars, curbs, and other very noticeable things like that. Some of
> us can tell smaller objects such as street poles, planters, and other
> things of the sort. Echolocation takes practice. I had to study it in
> Louisiana (I studied under Roland Allen, who is quite adept at
> echolocation). I would love to study under Dan Kish, the king of
> echolocation, however.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Hello Ashley,
>> What is echolocation?
>> Thanks,
>> Dennis
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>
>>> Hi Anmol and all,
>>> No don't place your hand in front at all times, but yes I think its
>>> reasonable to place an arm up or something to protect you when you are
>>> coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You can perceive this through
>>> echolocation or if its familiar you remember the overhanging obstacle.
>
>>> Ashley
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>> tree
>
>
>>>> Good points Sean!
>>>> To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the branch from
>>>> hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the branches are
>>>> hanging out so does this mean we should walk around with our hand in
>>>> frunt at all times?
>>>> Anmol
>
>
>>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>>> tree
>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
>>>>> Thank you Dennis!
>
>>>>> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
>
>>>>> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
>>>>> he has a case. A
>>>>> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
>>>>> where the branch is
>>>>> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
>>>>> foreseeable, and
>>>>> somebody was negligent.
>
>>>>> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:
>
>>>>> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
>>>>> face is
>>>>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
>>>>> it certainly isn't
>>>>> a requirement of safe travel.
>
>>>>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
>>>>> seems reasonable. I
>>>>> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
>>>>> indicates that I have
>>>>> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
>>>>> it is certainly
>>>>> easier to navigate it more quickly.
>
>>>>> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
>>>>> neither should a
>>>>> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
>>>>> kind of thing
>>>>> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
>>>>> story more
>>>>> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
>>>>> just saying it's
>>>>> so.
>
>
>
>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Robert Spangler
The University of Toledo
Student Senator - Administrative Affairs Committee Chair, College of
Arts and Sciences


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 21:05:19 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:05:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille
In-Reply-To: <4C635D50.2090907@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
	<160552557C5A4A618DF3F829E33CFABE@heathersony>
	<AANLkTikCEro0ijqt+4tN2UbXaAQZDtXGO4rDp1YczMzb@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C635D50.2090907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim+8QuzajeiPww4XcdxPwr9okXzMB8DaRA2mM4N@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Matt and All:

Just wanted to give an update. I ordered an Iowa cane. I am also going
to get an extra fiberglass cane from the NFB because that's the one I
know I like. I'm also going to get a telescoping one too for when I am
just going to a restaurant or something so it's easier to store.

For the labeling, I'm just going to order those pre-made labels as
they seem the easiest.

For the braille books, I know who to contact from my library so I may
read some books with my braille display and order others in hard-copy.

Thanks so much!

Kerri

On 8/11/10, Matt McCubbin <mgoalball at gmail.com> wrote:
> Kerri,
> The Iowa canes cost about $25, and you do not need to be a resident of
> Iowa to purchase them. Please call the Iowa Department for the Blind at
> 515-281-1333, and you will be able to order one.
> As for comparing them to the NFB cane, you won't find anything more
> sturdy and solid. It is a little bit heavier than your fiberglass or
> carbon Fiber straight cane, but the extra weight is worth the increased
> durability of the cane.
> Hope this helps, and please feel free to write if you have further
> questions.
> Best regards,
> Matt
>
> On 8/11/2010 2:24 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>> Hi Heather and All!
>>
>> Thanks so much for this!
>> When I received the hard-copy braille books from the library, I had
>> them sent to me randomly so I didn't call the library or anything.
>> When I signed up for Web Braille, and then in 2008 got my victor
>> stream, a lady named Terry Methony helped me both times. I do have her
>> email address...would she be my "reading advisor?"
>>
>> Also what are the differences between the Iowa canes and the straight
>> fiberglass NFB canes? I'm trying to figure out what to get as a
>> backup...I have and love my straight NFB cane now...but I've been told
>> the Iowa ones are a lot sturdier and don't break nearly as easily or
>> often!
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 8/11/10, H. Field<missheather at comcast.net>  wrote:
>>> Dear Kerri,
>>> I too am an avid braille reader since childhood, and I am  proficient
>>> with a braille display but there is no feeling like the stillness and
>>> silence of a hard-copy braille book. So, I encourage you to keep
>>> borrowing braille books. Here's how I do it and it works well for me
>>> as I don't like bothering with the time it takes to call in my
>>> requests and try to call at a time when my reader adviser is
>>> available.
>>>
>>> Every reader adviser in the Library Service has an e-mail address. I
>>> suggest you get the e-mail address of your reader adviser. Next, you
>>> can, indeed, go on to the website of the National Library Service for
>>> the Blind and Physically handicapped and search for the books you want
>>> by numerous search criteria. For example, author, title, subject.
>>> Make a list of the books you want in an e-mail, being sure to include
>>> the catalogue number, and then simply e-mail your requests to your
>>> reader adviser.
>>>
>>> It is important for braille readers to remember that if everyone stops
>>> borrowing braille books the government might decide that there is no
>>> longer a need for hard-copy braille books and dismantle the service.
>>> Reading braille on a book, as opposed to a braille display, is much
>>> faster and it is important to keep reading speed up. One doesn't have
>>> to take braille books on the bus or the plane on a flight, but reading
>>> a book at home is a good idea for the reasons which I've mentioned.
>>> The website for the National Library Service is:
>>> www.loc.gov/nls
>>> Warmest regards,
>>>
>>> Heather Field
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kerri Kosten"<kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2010 8:24 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading braille, labeling, and canes
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi All!!
>>>
>>> I have a couple of questions.
>>>
>>> First, for braille readers out there, do you find you read more on
>>> your note-taker and braille displays and get your books from Bookshare
>>> and Web Braille or do you still call your library and order hard-copy
>>> books? Also, can you order hard-copy braille books either online or
>>> through email?
>>>
>>> I have been blind from birth and am a very very fast braille reader. I
>>> used to get books from the library and loved reading hard-copy
>>> braille, but then in 2007 when I got my notetaker which had a braille
>>> display on it I stopped having them send me hard-copy books. But, I
>>> find I miss reading hard-copy braille, and though reading on the
>>> braille display is nice it's kind of cumbersome.
>>> I am trying to figure out whether I should do the easy thing and just
>>> download my books from Bookshare and Web Braille and reading them on
>>> my display or go through the hassle that is calling the library,
>>> picking categories of books, and ordering them hard-copy.
>>> I really wish NLS had an online system where you could just go online,
>>> fill out a form, enter in the book title/author, submit it
>>> electronically, then just wait for the book to come through the mail.
>>> Even on the Web-braille website, it is very hard to browse...they
>>> don't have it set up so you can browse by category...I know you can
>>> type in keywords but for whatever reason every time I try this I don't
>>> get any relevant results.
>>> So I thought I'd ask what you all do!
>>>
>>> My next question has to do with labeling canned foods. A blind friend
>>> told me to use dymo tape, then get a hole puncher and some rubber
>>> bands, punch a hole in the tape, and somehow thread the rubber band
>>> through the hole? She explained to me how to do this...but I'm not
>>> getting it...the rubber band is round...I don't understand how you put
>>> the round rubber band through the hole in the label?
>>>
>>> I saw that you could order these pre-made labels with rubber bands
>>> already on them...so all you have to do is write what you want the
>>> label to say...then stick it on the can.
>>> Which way do you prefer/use? I'm very confused by the dymo tape way...
>>>
>>> My final question has to do with canes. I need to get a backup. I got
>>> a free white cane in January and really like it. However, I've been
>>> told that the Iowa Canes (the canes you get from the Iowa Center) are
>>> much sturdier and can last pretty much forever. What should I get as a
>>> backup...one extra nfb cane and then one Iowa one? I've never used an
>>> Iowa cane...but my friend has had hers for over three years and it
>>> hasn't broken yet...and my NFB one though I like it a lot because how
>>> light it is is already chipping.
>>> What do you prefer? What are the pros/cons of the Iowa canes? What are
>>> the differences between the Iowa canes and the fiberglass NFB canes?
>>> Also...does anyone know how much the Iowa canes cost if you order them
>>> and are out-of-state? I'm not from Iowa.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mgoalball%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 21:21:58 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:21:58 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] copyediting symbols
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=vyznJ3hjQtSrNTbtiqNht0pMuQdiRyB-5ywvz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=vyznJ3hjQtSrNTbtiqNht0pMuQdiRyB-5ywvz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim=eoHXDg25Oe7PPyct9k=5r7P_vQtRDpmuXM3j@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bryce:

I'm a journalism major in college. I've never had this.

Maybe you could use a reader or have someone read the test orally to
you and maybe somehow you could tell them which symbol to mark?

Hmm...may not work but just a thought...I have no idea!

I want to be a sports reporter but I want to do online and multi-media
not print...I thought most journalism is online now and I thought most
stuff was done via the computer...

Also, I would suggest subscribing and posting your message to the
Blind Journalists list...maybe they would have some suggestions?

Hope this helps some...and please keep us posted on what solution you
come up with as I hope I don't run into this problem!

Kerri

On 8/16/10, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm taking a journalism class this semester, and one of the
> requirements involves copyediting tests. According to the instructor
> these are pencil editing tests using symbols that will be given out on
> the first day of the class.
>
> Has anyone used these before? I'm trying to figure out methods for
> completing the work, and or If I need to come up with any adaptations
> since this involves printed visual symbols.
>
> -Brice
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 22:19:23 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:19:23 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
	<BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikQy+hj6ky9=UWQwUgiC0WjRniyRafK-a+iqSse@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Rob,

If you're a student you could try advertising on student listservs at
your school, or with the student employment office, for a driver you
could pay $7/hr or so for the health club and other trips. You could
also talk with community service clubs at your school (such as
sororities, frats, or purely service organizations) and see if there
are students looking for volunteer hours, and then offer volunteer
time in exchange for rides. Even though the drivers aren't getting
paid directly, they need the hours for a requirement, which will keep
them accountable. I know some honors programs/courses require service
hours as well.

Arielle

On 8/16/10, Karrie Kinstetter <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was going to suggest that as well.
> Other than that, I'm not sure what else to tell you on this matter.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>>
>>
>> Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know
>> own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only
>> other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
>>  --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>
>>> Rob,
>>> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to do
>>>
>>> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire
>>> county...
>>> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them
>>> $20 or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have no
>>>
>>> options... well... yeah.
>>> Hth,
>>> Karrie
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus or
>>>>
>>>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to offer
>>>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or
>>>> in relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice
>>>> that I'm not aware of.
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Mon Aug 16 22:28:56 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:28:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] IPhone and ITunes
In-Reply-To: <BE9E152384944CED884498A3B263B202@Davidpc>
References: <DA19F355F9F9434AB2852A472E7FA15B@stanford.edu>
	<BE9E152384944CED884498A3B263B202@Davidpc>
Message-ID: <20100816182856.2brkoph7okwosc0c@webmail.utoronto.ca>

I have an ipod touch. Would that help? the synchronization process is  
similar I think.


Quoting David <davidschool97 at gmail.com>:

> Hi it is David.
> I have an Iphone and sinc it with windows.
> What is your question and I would be happy to help.
> you can contact me on skype skype name david.william.thomas1997
> or just on E-mail davidschool97 at gmail.com
> David Thomas
> Owner and moderator of electronicsandmorefortheblind at
> electronicsfortheblind-request at emissives.com with subscribe in the
> subject line
> Vice President of Paez Production Networks
> subscribe to No Eyes required on iTunes e-mail me with any concerns at
> davidschool97 at gmail.com
> Please note:
> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this
> communication is directed to.
> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the
> subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of
> this message and/or any accompanying media.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 11:02 PM
> To: "NABS-L" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] IPhone and ITunes
>
>> Would someone who has an IPhone and synchronizes it with a PC using  
>>  ITunes please email me off list?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nicole
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info   
>> for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidschool97%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca





From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 22:30:51 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:30:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQy+hj6ky9=UWQwUgiC0WjRniyRafK-a+iqSse@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>
	<AANLkTikQy+hj6ky9=UWQwUgiC0WjRniyRafK-a+iqSse@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS1753EE2A15BCFE1D2C9E608B9B0@phx.gbl>

Thanks I never even thought of that option.  I will be sure to post that on 
the message board next week when school starts.
Rob


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:19 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue

> Hi Rob,
>
> If you're a student you could try advertising on student listservs at
> your school, or with the student employment office, for a driver you
> could pay $7/hr or so for the health club and other trips. You could
> also talk with community service clubs at your school (such as
> sororities, frats, or purely service organizations) and see if there
> are students looking for volunteer hours, and then offer volunteer
> time in exchange for rides. Even though the drivers aren't getting
> paid directly, they need the hours for a requirement, which will keep
> them accountable. I know some honors programs/courses require service
> hours as well.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 8/16/10, Karrie Kinstetter <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was going to suggest that as well.
>> Other than that, I'm not sure what else to tell you on this matter.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know
>>> own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only
>>> other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
>>>  --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>
>>>> Rob,
>>>> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to 
>>>> do
>>>>
>>>> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire
>>>> county...
>>>> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them
>>>> $20 or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have 
>>>> no
>>>>
>>>> options... well... yeah.
>>>> Hth,
>>>> Karrie
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus 
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to 
>>>>> offer
>>>>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or
>>>>> in relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice
>>>>> that I'm not aware of.
>>>>> Rob
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature
>> database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Mon Aug 16 22:41:29 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:41:29 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
References: <20100816003520.15144.49599@web3>
	<AANLkTinc26T7OR-O535g0y11RPsV_79Bhs-pnf-OULAY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014e01cb3d94$2b98f610$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Rob,
Do you believe that women and blacks have achieved their improved success in 
employment without force, and this improvement in employment has resulted 
from the employers who would not hire them in the past, simply now changing 
their minds and deciding they were wrong previously?  That is not my 
understanding of history.  Also, I don't remember the good old days pre ADA 
when employers welcomed blind people with open arms and then deciding that 
as a result of the ADA that they are now afraid that they will be sued if 
they hire blind people.  As a lawyer I would advise them that they are at 
greater risk if they don't hire than if they do.  Also, why would you be 
sued if you are obeying the law?  I have been a lawyer since 1991 and I have 
never seen someone be in trouble for following the law.  My clients find 
themselves in difficulty because they didn't follow the law, not because 
they did.  This is usually because they didn't like the particular law in 
question, and they thought they could get away with not following it, just 
like speeders think they can drive faster than the posted speed limit.  I 
guess our experiences in life are very different.
Best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Spangler" <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree


> The problem with this view is that we as blind people are labeled as
> walking lawsuits.  My ability to get a job has been severely limited
> by such laws as the ADA which, FORCE, companies to comply.  who would
> want to hire someone who has a larger chance of potentially sueing
> them?  I sure wouldn't.  I would wish to hire the person who is going
> to cost my business less and will allow me to operate much more
> efficiently.  that being said, I am able to walk into any business
> with all of the equipment that I will need to conduct the job without
> asking the company to buy it for me.  the utilization of force never
> works; it will cause companies to look for ways around hiring us.
>
> On 8/15/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> I'm not Ashley, but I can tell you what echolation is.
>>
>> Just like light, sound bounces off of, or is absorbed by, objects and
>> then bounces back into our ears. Echolocation takes advantage of this
>> in the same way sight does. The main difference is that, for the most
>> part, there is an outside light source apart from the seer. In this
>> case, the listener generally produces the sound that will bounce off of
>> objects. Cane taps are usually sufficient. The quality of the sound
>> tells the listener if it has been absorbed or bounced back and to what
>> extent. Those who get good at it can even tell the shapes of the
>> objects they listen to, where they are exactly located, and how far
>> away they are. A listener can also gain this kind of information by
>> using outside sound sources and listening to how those sounds bounce
>> off of the objects they're close to.
>>
>> The average echolocation user can generally tell where trees and bushes
>> are, people, large buildings, glass windows and doors, metalic objects
>> like cars, curbs, and other very noticeable things like that. Some of
>> us can tell smaller objects such as street poles, planters, and other
>> things of the sort. Echolocation takes practice. I had to study it in
>> Louisiana (I studied under Roland Allen, who is quite adept at
>> echolocation). I would love to study under Dan Kish, the king of
>> echolocation, however.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hello Ashley,
>>> What is echolocation?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Dennis
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:13 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with 
>>> tree
>>
>>
>>>> Hi Anmol and all,
>>>> No don't place your hand in front at all times, but yes I think its
>>>> reasonable to place an arm up or something to protect you when you are
>>>> coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You can perceive this through
>>>> echolocation or if its familiar you remember the overhanging obstacle.
>>
>>>> Ashley
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>> tree
>>
>>
>>>>> Good points Sean!
>>>>> To who ever said to keep your hand in frunt to prevent the branch from
>>>>> hitting you, we do not when a tree is in frunt and the branches are
>>>>> hanging out so does this mean we should walk around with our hand in
>>>>> frunt at all times?
>>>>> Anmol
>>
>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
>>>>>> tree
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22 PM
>>>>>> Thank you Dennis!
>>
>>>>>> You said everything I wanted to say, and then some.
>>
>>>>>> If the man was injured and incurred costs from the injury,
>>>>>> he has a case. A
>>>>>> sighted person could sue in the circumstances described
>>>>>> where the branch is
>>>>>> not illuminated at night. The limb causing injury is
>>>>>> foreseeable, and
>>>>>> somebody was negligent.
>>
>>>>>> A few other thoughts brought up by the discussion so far:
>>
>>>>>> The idea that I should always have my hand in front of my
>>>>>> face is
>>>>>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm not knocking it, but
>>>>>> it certainly isn't
>>>>>> a requirement of safe travel.
>>
>>>>>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in unfamiliar areas
>>>>>> seems reasonable. I
>>>>>> do it, and I don't think that exercising some caution
>>>>>> indicates that I have
>>>>>> subpar travel skills. Once you are familiar with an area,
>>>>>> it is certainly
>>>>>> easier to navigate it more quickly.
>>
>>>>>> Kirt is right in that this maybe shouldn't be news, but
>>>>>> neither should a
>>>>>> blind person graduating from a university, and I see that
>>>>>> kind of thing
>>>>>> written up frequently. Blindness is different, and makes a
>>>>>> story more
>>>>>> interesting to the general public. Not saying I like it,
>>>>>> just saying it's
>>>>>> so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/spangler.robert%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Robert Spangler
> The University of Toledo
> Student Senator - Administrative Affairs Committee Chair, College of
> Arts and Sciences
>
> _______________________________________________
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 22:45:40 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:45:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>
Message-ID: <37209BBB67C942459996974F70D89991@hometwxakonvzn>

Do you have buses? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue


>I was going to suggest that as well.
> Other than that, I'm not sure what else to tell you on this matter.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>>
>>
>> Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know 
>> own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only 
>> other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
>>  --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>
>>> Rob,
>>> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to 
>>> do what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my 
>>> entire county...
>>> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them 
>>> $20 or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have 
>>> no options... well... yeah.
>>> Hth,
>>> Karrie
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus 
>>>> or no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to 
>>>> offer health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the 
>>>> bus or in relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new 
>>>> advice that I'm not aware of.
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 22:50:16 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:50:16 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
Message-ID: <BBC799089A654204A71D24C606E5AE45@hometwxakonvzn>

Karrie, That's what I have to do in my county as well. I had a church ask me 
to preach two services for them, so the chairmen of the deacons came to the 
house and picked me up. RJ P.S. I'm playing Monopoly, if you wish to play a 
game. Please contact me on skype if you want to chat.
smallistbaby1979 is my skype name.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue


> Rob,
> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to do 
> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire 
> county...
> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them $20 
> or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have no 
> options... well... yeah.
> Hth,
> Karrie
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus or 
>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to offer 
>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or in 
>> relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice that 
>> I'm not aware of.
>> Rob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:06:46 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:06:46 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <37209BBB67C942459996974F70D89991@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>
	<37209BBB67C942459996974F70D89991@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS3BFFE2DBDFC7F60A68EA68B9B0@phx.gbl>

yes we do it's just that the place that I'd be going is a mile away from 
where the bus is or more.  Parrit transit could get me within a mile of 
where it is which I could then use a cab but I would like to avodid to if 
possible. 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 16 23:26:15 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:26:15 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] job development services and vr
Message-ID: <662A5AC1792A47FE9A5E43E0EC81D1BD@Ashley>

Hi all,

I was wondering what support, if any, you got to transition to your first job or internship with rehab.  Did they have someone work with you on job skills such as writing effective cover letters, how to conduct informational interviews, and interview tips? Did someone help you find the job?

Right now I am frustrated.  I am doing a job development program through Service source, which is an agency who has an agreement with the department here.
But I thought we were going to work on interview skills there.  I'm disappointed though because all we do is sit with her laptop and fill out job applications.  Except for some cluttered websites, I can search myself and submit cover letters.

I feel I was mislead.  They told me there would be mock interviews and "anything you need to know to get a job and keep the job".  

So how has rehab supported you in getting a job?

I might get out of this program if they're not going to teach me job skills; I can find jobs online and fill out the forms unless its inaccessible.  But I need help in "selling myself".

Thanks.
Ashley

From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 16 23:28:43 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:28:43 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] job coaching
Message-ID: <451F00E8767E4755A9BD7B89D43FB5DF@Ashley>

Hi all,

Have you worked with job coaches?  If so what do they do?
I might be able to use a job coach after I get a job.  But not sure if I need one.  I am outspoken for my needs.

Thanks.
Ashley

From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:30:44 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:30:44 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] job development services and vr
In-Reply-To: <662A5AC1792A47FE9A5E43E0EC81D1BD@Ashley>
References: <662A5AC1792A47FE9A5E43E0EC81D1BD@Ashley>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS2B65B337ACFD7CF7C0E4B8B9B0@phx.gbl>



I was in a program like this when  i lived in Florida.
This program was at their rehab center.  The rest of the program I hated but 
this particular training was very helpful and they did teah the interview 
process. My view on it it's often based on the person teaching you.
Rob
 



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:31:04 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:31:04 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] copyediting symbols
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim=eoHXDg25Oe7PPyct9k=5r7P_vQtRDpmuXM3j@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=vyznJ3hjQtSrNTbtiqNht0pMuQdiRyB-5ywvz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim=eoHXDg25Oe7PPyct9k=5r7P_vQtRDpmuXM3j@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4246FC7E-681E-4DB3-B6AC-663A3AE26162@gmail.com>

Here's what I would do. It should work for you as long as the instructor is willing to cooperate. I guess the idea here is to print symbols that have particular meanings, right? I'm sorry if I'm not understanding this correctly... What I would do is to agree with the instructor on an alternative set of symbols, which you can make with your computer. For example you could take each symbol and assign a letter to it. This way, you can just type the letters that correspond to each symbol, and as long as your instructor knows them, you should be able to do it.
Again, sorry if I'm not understanding this well..!


On Aug 16, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi Bryce:
> 
> I'm a journalism major in college. I've never had this.
> 
> Maybe you could use a reader or have someone read the test orally to
> you and maybe somehow you could tell them which symbol to mark?
> 
> Hmm...may not work but just a thought...I have no idea!
> 
> I want to be a sports reporter but I want to do online and multi-media
> not print...I thought most journalism is online now and I thought most
> stuff was done via the computer...
> 
> Also, I would suggest subscribing and posting your message to the
> Blind Journalists list...maybe they would have some suggestions?
> 
> Hope this helps some...and please keep us posted on what solution you
> come up with as I hope I don't run into this problem!
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 8/16/10, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm taking a journalism class this semester, and one of the
>> requirements involves copyediting tests. According to the instructor
>> these are pencil editing tests using symbols that will be given out on
>> the first day of the class.
>> 
>> Has anyone used these before? I'm trying to figure out methods for
>> completing the work, and or If I need to come up with any adaptations
>> since this involves printed visual symbols.
>> 
>> -Brice
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:37:34 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:37:34 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS3BFFE2DBDFC7F60A68EA68B9B0@phx.gbl>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>
	<37209BBB67C942459996974F70D89991@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY130-DS3BFFE2DBDFC7F60A68EA68B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <41FA3F1E-143B-4159-B036-4A183E5CAB70@gmail.com>

Where I live, the same company that runs city busses offers a special service for people with disabilities. You pay a dollar each way (at least that's what I pay as a student) and they pick you up with a van and take you wherever you want in town. They can even park the van and help you if you need to find something in a store. You might want to check and see if that service exists in your area.
On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Rob Blachowicz wrote:

> yes we do it's just that the place that I'd be going is a mile away from where the bus is or more.  Parrit transit could get me within a mile of where it is which I could then use a cab but I would like to avodid to if possible. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:46:39 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:46:39 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Universal Design
In-Reply-To: <16453DF861544BDA970B78DCF7BC5393@MarcPC>
References: <20100814220412.23909.41575@web1>
	<16453DF861544BDA970B78DCF7BC5393@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <156E425800F14416BF92F837A7F6B6AA@Rufus>

Hi Marc,

You pose an interesting notion.  I don't know where I sit on aspects of
universal design like audible traffic signals.  I myself have not found them
exceptionally useful, but nor did I find the NFB's active protest in
Portland eight or nine years ago all that necessary either.  I am of the
opinion that people have a choice to use or not use available resources.

My fear with this is not so much the scope to all persons as much as the
availability.  I believe the NFB follows a methodology to help persons to
adopt to their environment no matter where they might find themselves,
whether they should venture into a different city or a different country.
Universal design seems like a daunting endeavor that would require a change
in the way we think fundamentally, not just the way we perceive individual
tasks.  I don't know that I disagree with the notion of universal design
exactly.  I just question the feasibility, and again I am concerned with the
immediacy of training all blind individuals regardless of skill level to
confront and successfully maneuver their environment.

This reminds me of an article a group of us debated once about an apartment
complex designed specifically for persons with disabilities complete with
textured walls, hand rails and all manner of amenities.  To some this home
appeared to be the ideal setting, but as you may have guessed, I was
vehemently opposed to it for the false sense of confidence it established
and the bubble-like environment it promoted.  I may be missing this concept
of universal design altogether, but I genuinely believe it would be
difficult to make people with disabilities catch up to the rest of society
by creating certain standardized norms.  There is too much of a gap, and in
the meantime more people fall through the cracks.

Still, the notion is an interesting one, and I'll admit to feeling curious
about its consequences.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:34 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with tree

Jedi,

I prefaced my comment by saying that it was not directed at 
you.  I wasn't 
objecting to what you said so much as the idea contained in the 
couple of 
sentences I quoted from you, and idea that was contained within 
the comments 
of many others.

Regarding what you say about universal design, that the NFB is "about 
creating a universal design that honors the capacities of blind 
people while 
meeting our accessibility needs rather than creating a design 
that assumes 
that we have more needs than we really do", this strikes me as 
a problematic 
way of understanding universal design.  The question I would ask is: 
capacities and needs of which blind people?

The problem is that blind people, like all people, have a 
tremendous amount 
of variation in the capacities they possess.  A blind person that is 
otherwise able-bodied, who has been blind for a long period of 
time, who has 
received a lot of training, who is intelligent, confident, and so on is 
going to have a different set of capacities than the person who 
is newly 
blind, has had little training, has mobility difficulties, and 
is hard of 
hearing on top of it, and considering how many lose their 
vision in old age, 
don't think this picture is that out of the ordinary.

So, who do we look at when we are fighting for universal design 
that honours 
the capacities of blind people without exaggerating their 
needs? Do we look 
at the capacities of the members of this list, or do we look at the 
capacities of blind seniors?

The problem I see with your understanding of universal design 
is that it 
isn't really universal.  For it to be universal, you can't limit its 
application to a group of people that possess a certain set of 
capacities 
and needs.

Responding to Joe who asked for more specifics on universal design, I 
understand it as a guiding principle, and ideal towards which 
we struggle 
without actually attaining it, something like equality, 
freedom, or justice. 
Basically, as I stated, you design institutions, products, processes, 
services and so on so that they are as accessible as possible to the 
greatest number of people with the greatest variation in 
abilities.  One 
slightly more concrete way of thinking about this is that it involves 
providing access to information in multiple ways.  So at a controlled 
intersection, the changing of the light is information that is only 
presented visually.  Universal design would promote the inclusion of an 
audible and even a tactile signal that conveys the visual 
information in 
alternative ways.  We obviously will never make everything completely 
accessible to everyone, but that is what makes it an ideal.  
It's something 
towards which we ought to strive.

When things are universally designed, they include features 
that many many 
people will not actually make use of.  A large number of blind 
people may 
not need an audible signal, but some of course will, at the 
very least, find 
one very useful.  And the concern seems to be that people will 
assume that 
because some blind people have difficulty getting around 
without adapting 
the environment somewhat, then all blind people must need these 
adaptations, 
and then this leads to negative attitudes, discrimination, 
unemployment and 
so on.  For my objections to this line of argument, see my last post.

In closing, I want to leave you with a quote from Jacobus 
tenBroek, a fellow 
Albertan I might add.  It suggests to me that tenBroek would 
support the 
fight against unnecessary obsticles that prevent us from 
travelling in the 
manner in which we choose, including the issue that sparked 
this debate.  I 
also think it's a nod towards universal design, the kind that's 
actually 
universal.

tenBroek writes: "No courts have held or even darkly hinted 
that a blind man 
may rise in the morning, help get the children off to school, 
bid his wife 
goodbye,and proceed along the streets and bus lines to his daily work, 
without dog, cane, or guide, if such is his habit or 
preference, now and 
then brushing a tree or kicking a curb,but, notwithstanding, 
proceeding with 
firm step and sure air, knowing that he is part of the public 
for whom the 
streets are built and maintained in reasonable safety, by the 
help of his 
taxes, and that he shares with others this part of the world in 
which he, 
too,has a right to live" (1966, 867-68).

tenBroek, Jacobus. 1966. The right to live in the world: The 
disabled in the 
law of torts.California Law Review 54: 841-919.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with tree


> Marc,
>
> I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I 
was trying 
> to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true 
that bringing 
> attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in fact 
> solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has 
been blind a 
> while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been 
hiding under a 
> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public tends to view us 
> through their own speculations of what their lives might be 
like if they 
> were blinded immediately without realizing that they have 
considerable 
> gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I also said is 
that the tree 
> could have served as a legitimate obstacle for this 
particular blind man. 
> Though I didn't say it directly, what I meant is that perhaps 
he does have 
> a cause to seek remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best 
way to handle 
> things. In my opinion, this incident is much like the woman 
who spilled 
> hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonnald's.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB 
philosophy (or at 
> least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with 
universal 
> design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people to look 
> incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB 
does support 
> (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about creating a 
> universal design that honors the capacities of blind people 
while meeting 
> our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that 
assumes that we 
> have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by 
a majority 
>> of
>> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters 
account of this
>> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind 
people ought to
>> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified 
claims about 
>> how
>> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded 
assumptions 
>> about
>> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a 
law suit, 
>> and
>> we have highly speculative claims about how this one 
incident is going to
>> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.
>
>> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; 
she only said
>> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said 
afterwards.
>
>> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would 
reaify the notion
>> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people 
because we are
>> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
>> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to 
one/all of us or 
>> not.
>
>> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  
None of them 
>> are
>> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good 
reason to not be
>> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of 
battles are 
>> doing
>> us all harm.
>
>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
>> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to 
react to these 
>> sorts
>> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to 
the fact 
>> that
>> the person was travelling in the community independently, 
she might focus 
>> on
>> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might 
>> begin
>> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging 
branches, or
>> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, 
assuming she
>> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation 
>> involved
>> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.
>
>> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this 
thing called 
>> the
>> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of 
one person and
>> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes 
that we all 
>> need
>> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
>> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our 
positions on what we
>> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public 
will react to
>> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our 
>> positions
>> on both what we think is right and how the public will 
react.  Fine, I'm 
>> not
>> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
>> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly 
>> unpredictable,
>> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort 
of activities 
>> we
>> should engage in.
>
>> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions 
based on these
>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be 
educated.  Why
>> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these 
barriers, we 
>> suffer
>> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
>> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the 
community, and
>> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that 
feel they can
>> comfortably and independently travel throughout the 
community, without
>> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
>> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging 
obsticles, the
>> more people you will have out in the community, the more 
relationships 
>> will
>> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
>
>> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two 
of the most
>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are 
misguided.  First, the
>> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
>> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
>> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, 
without the user
>> having to possess special equipment or training.  If 
environment A is 
>> only
>> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten 
years, who has 
>> had
>> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
>> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone 
recently blind, 
>> with
>> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt 
stances towards
>> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be 
true that, at
>> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to 
believe that
>> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my 
second concern 
>> with
>> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety 
of ways that 
>> the
>> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions 
matter, but
>> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and 
should not make 
>> us
>> afraid to fight for what is right.
>
>> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, 
and I don't
>> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another 
perspective 
>> to
>> this story that hasn't been aired fully.
>
>> Best,
>
>> Marc
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
run-in with 
>> tree
>
>
>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who 
don't use guide
>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are 
going to miss
>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad 
precedent as it
>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to 
>>> blind
>>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an 
inconvenience 
>>> to
>>> one/all of us or not.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>
>>>> Arielle
>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>
>>>> 
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wien
erschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>>>> By bob mims
>
>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>
>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>> full of tree - and severe neck injuries.
>
>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>
>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds - 
who had been
>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind - 
got off a
>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in 
front of him,
>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>> sidewalk.
>
>>>> "The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>> ground," states the suit, filed Tuesday. "The tree was 
allowed to grow
>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>> presence by use of his cane."
>
>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was "rooted in the 
ground far to
>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>> sidewalk," it had become a "clear hazard."
>
>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and 
future medical
>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>
>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>> eatery, Reynolds' 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake 
City Corp.
>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>
>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>
>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>> discuss the case. "We are unaware of this lawsuit and will 
look into
>>>> it," he said.
>
>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not 
comment, either,
>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>
>
>>>> __._,_.___
>
>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
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From valandkayla at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:50:45 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:50:45 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
Message-ID: <1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com>

When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.

If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.

Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

Thank you for your feedback.

Val
On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted students.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
> 
> Original message:
>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
> 
>> Original message:
>>> Greetings all,
> 
>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a
>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
> 
>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
> 
>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training
>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for you.
> 
>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
> 
>>>> Val!
> 
>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
> 
>>>> Justin
> 
>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
> 
>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
> 
>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>> training various service dogs.
> 
>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
> 
>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
> 
>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
> 
> 
>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
> 
>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
> 
>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>> confrontational"?
> 
>>>>>> Arielle
> 
>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>> Beth
> 
>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
> 
>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>> etc.
> 
>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
> 
>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
> 
>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
> 
>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
> 
>>>>>>>>> Mark,
> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
> 
>>>>>>>>> Best,
> 
>>>>>>>>> Joe
> 
>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
> 
> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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> 
> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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> 
> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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> 
> 
> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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> 
> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:56:50 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:56:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] job coaching
References: <451F00E8767E4755A9BD7B89D43FB5DF@Ashley>
Message-ID: <BA4FE5523239405FA92DA3BB030D9B86@Espy>

>From what the vr counselor told me, a job coach is similar to your 
supervisor. If you are outspoken as far as your needs are concerned, i don't 
think you'll need one.
Hope and Beignet
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] job coaching


> Hi all,
>
> Have you worked with job coaches?  If so what do they do?
> I might be able to use a job coach after I get a job.  But not sure if I 
> need one.  I am outspoken for my needs.
>
> Thanks.
> Ashley
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>
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> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 


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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 23:57:49 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:57:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] job development services and vr
References: <662A5AC1792A47FE9A5E43E0EC81D1BD@Ashley>
Message-ID: <D4D8F91441F44838A6D55274365F516F@Espy>

The hadley school offers a free course regarding finding employment. I just 
took it and it involves writing a good cover letter and resumme, talks about 
interviews, etc.
Hth
Hope and Beignet
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:26 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] job development services and vr


> Hi all,
>
> I was wondering what support, if any, you got to transition to your first 
> job or internship with rehab.  Did they have someone work with you on job 
> skills such as writing effective cover letters, how to conduct 
> informational interviews, and interview tips? Did someone help you find 
> the job?
>
> Right now I am frustrated.  I am doing a job development program through 
> Service source, which is an agency who has an agreement with the 
> department here.
> But I thought we were going to work on interview skills there.  I'm 
> disappointed though because all we do is sit with her laptop and fill out 
> job applications.  Except for some cluttered websites, I can search myself 
> and submit cover letters.
>
> I feel I was mislead.  They told me there would be mock interviews and 
> "anything you need to know to get a job and keep the job".
>
> So how has rehab supported you in getting a job?
>
> I might get out of this program if they're not going to teach me job 
> skills; I can find jobs online and fill out the forms unless its 
> inaccessible.  But I need help in "selling myself".
>
> Thanks.
> Ashley
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 17 00:12:57 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:12:57 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8E4A00163314B31A152CE3B1D393067@Ashley>

No having a sighted assistant occassionally does not altar the program or 
your job. Blind employees do it all the time.  For instance teachers of the 
vision impaired who are blind have sighted help administering low vision 
assessments.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering 
> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me 
> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think. 
> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>
> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could 
> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give 
> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>
> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
> Thank you for your feedback.
>
> Val
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the 
>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets 
>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted students.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Greetings all,
>>
>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a
>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>
>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>
>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training
>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for 
>>>> you.
>>
>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>
>>>>> Val!
>>
>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>
>>>>> Justin
>>
>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>
>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. 
>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>
>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer 
>>>>>> in some
>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that 
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>
>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training 
>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational 
>>>>>> pet
>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen 
>>>>>> since
>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>
>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to 
>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>
>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own 
>>>>>> family is
>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is 
>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>
>>
>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll 
>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about 
>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 
>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>
>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind 
>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, 
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their 
>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>
>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So 
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent 
>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply 
>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one 
>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects 
>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems 
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, 
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, 
>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they 
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in 
>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do 
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to 
>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation 
>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to 
>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves. 
>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but 
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an 
>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few 
>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about 
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two 
>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it 
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the 
>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the 
>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the 
>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another 
>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but 
>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she 
>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other 
>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants. 
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board 
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at 
>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam 
>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>> -- 
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 00:14:10 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:14:10 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus>

Valerie,

I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how to
deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed a
sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious all
over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With something
as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
assistance.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany 
me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't 
alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than 
having a reader read tests.

If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, 
i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with 
me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess 
the situation.

Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

Thank you for your feedback.

Val
On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is 
that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a 
blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and 
may benefit sighted students.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
> 
> Original message:
>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>> but having that alternative training available has 
revoluationized the
>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
> 
>> Original message:
>>> Greetings all,
> 
>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind 
headquarters,
>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  
I gave him a
>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
> 
>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i 
shared. Going
>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in 
the fall of
>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i 
think, he will
>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
> 
>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the 
fundalmental training
>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their 
program for you.
> 
>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
> 
>>>> Val!
> 
>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
> 
>>>> Justin
> 
>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
> 
>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide 
dogs. ittrains
>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
> 
>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional 
dog trainer in some
>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question 
test that will
>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I 
do plan on
>>>>> training various service dogs.
> 
>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog 
training school, the
>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a 
confrontational pet
>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely 
to happen since
>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
> 
>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i 
plan to contact the
>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
> 
>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right 
now, my own family is
>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but 
is nevertheless.
>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
> 
> 
>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean 
time i'll kep you
>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's 
thought about becoming a
>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their 
blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
> 
>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
> 
>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst 
discrimination we
>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of 
blind people,
>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The 
underlying attitude
>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized 
services, but
>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind 
that people
>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this 
school expect
>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations 
where their dog
>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>> confrontational"?
> 
>>>>>> Arielle
> 
>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make 
people like me for
>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to 
school and
>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's 
shelters.  So what
>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big 
violent guy?
>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>> Beth
> 
>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this 
school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
> 
>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and 
this one seems to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of 
subjects related to
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, 
health problems in
>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>> etc.
> 
>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that 
they liked, then
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then 
told them, "now
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second 
best.", they would
>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
> 
>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them 
in universities,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
> 
>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with 
people who do not
>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not 
allow me to train
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
> 
>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and 
foundation that i
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking 
anyone to like me
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
> 
>>>>>>>>> Mark,
> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding 
another school that
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for 
themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's 
career, but not
>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her 
to an awkward
>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it 
go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard 
time about my
>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the 
first two occasions
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I 
fought it and
>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from 
DC, but the
>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful 
muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but 
by then the case
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point 
is that the current
>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  
Finding another school
>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one 
option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not 
know Valerie
>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications 
associated with
>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied 
is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if 
for no other reason
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind 
applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow 
people to board their
>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know 
they'll at least
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
> 
>>>>>>>>> Best,
> 
>>>>>>>>> Joe
> 
>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some 
turn up their
>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at 
all."--Sam Ewing
> 
> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
yla%40gmail.com
> 
> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> 
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isloose%40gmail.com
> 
> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pre
sident%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
yla%40gmail.com
> 
> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> 
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> 
> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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account info for nabs-l:
>>>> 
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yla%40gmail.com
> 
> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
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> 
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  
Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From kramc11 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 00:32:19 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:32:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikQy+hj6ky9=UWQwUgiC0WjRniyRafK-a+iqSse@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776>
	<AANLkTikQy+hj6ky9=UWQwUgiC0WjRniyRafK-a+iqSse@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B907EB9C6DA74A4E899DEF33C118FCD9@SonyPC>

Another thing that I do is find a friend that is going to the gym at the 
same time as I am going and just carpool with them. My friend likes to go to 
the YMCA like every day, and, she will be going there anyway, regardless of 
if I ask her for a ride or not, so, she drives me to the Y a lot. It is not 
a problem for her, it helps me, and everyone is happy.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue


> Hi Rob,
>
> If you're a student you could try advertising on student listservs at
> your school, or with the student employment office, for a driver you
> could pay $7/hr or so for the health club and other trips. You could
> also talk with community service clubs at your school (such as
> sororities, frats, or purely service organizations) and see if there
> are students looking for volunteer hours, and then offer volunteer
> time in exchange for rides. Even though the drivers aren't getting
> paid directly, they need the hours for a requirement, which will keep
> them accountable. I know some honors programs/courses require service
> hours as well.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 8/16/10, Karrie Kinstetter <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was going to suggest that as well.
>> Other than that, I'm not sure what else to tell you on this matter.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know
>>> own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only
>>> other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
>>>  --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>
>>>> Rob,
>>>> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to 
>>>> do
>>>>
>>>> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire
>>>> county...
>>>> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them
>>>> $20 or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have 
>>>> no
>>>>
>>>> options... well... yeah.
>>>> Hth,
>>>> Karrie
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus 
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to 
>>>>> offer
>>>>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or
>>>>> in relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice
>>>>> that I'm not aware of.
>>>>> Rob
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature
>> database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From valandkayla at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 00:33:16 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:33:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com>
	<F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus>
Message-ID: <2841182F-DC36-4C5E-8019-D14687A2AB8E@gmail.com>

Joe,

The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and i could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to look for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations, for  the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing when to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back.  They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the dog is doing.

Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test, and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.  

So the way i se it, i have two options:

1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40  to 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt. Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits of 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and 300 hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal shelters.

or

2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can, apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer at a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was talking about.

Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts

Val

PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

> Valerie,
> 
> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how to
> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed a
> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious all
> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With something
> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
> assistance.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Joe
> 
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany 
> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't 
> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than 
> having a reader read tests.
> 
> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, 
> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with 
> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess 
> the situation.
> 
> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
> 
> Thank you for your feedback.
> 
> Val
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
> 
>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is 
> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a 
> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and 
> may benefit sighted students.
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>> 
>> Original message:
>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>> but having that alternative training available has 
> revoluationized the
>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>> 
>>> Original message:
>>>> Greetings all,
>> 
>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind 
> headquarters,
>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  
> I gave him a
>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>> 
>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i 
> shared. Going
>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in 
> the fall of
>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i 
> think, he will
>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>> 
>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the 
> fundalmental training
>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their 
> program for you.
>> 
>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>> 
>>>>> Val!
>> 
>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>> 
>>>>> Justin
>> 
>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>> 
>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide 
> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>> 
>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional 
> dog trainer in some
>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question 
> test that will
>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I 
> do plan on
>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>> 
>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog 
> training school, the
>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a 
> confrontational pet
>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely 
> to happen since
>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>> 
>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i 
> plan to contact the
>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>> 
>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right 
> now, my own family is
>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but 
> is nevertheless.
>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean 
> time i'll kep you
>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's 
> thought about becoming a
>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their 
> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>> 
>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst 
> discrimination we
>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of 
> blind people,
>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The 
> underlying attitude
>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized 
> services, but
>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind 
> that people
>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this 
> school expect
>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations 
> where their dog
>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>> 
>>>>>>> Arielle
>> 
>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make 
> people like me for
>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to 
> school and
>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's 
> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big 
> violent guy?
>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this 
> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and 
> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of 
> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, 
> health problems in
>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that 
> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then 
> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second 
> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them 
> in universities,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with 
> people who do not
>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not 
> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and 
> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking 
> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding 
> another school that
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for 
> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's 
> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her 
> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it 
> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard 
> time about my
>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the 
> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I 
> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from 
> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful 
> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but 
> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point 
> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  
> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one 
> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not 
> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications 
> associated with
>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied 
> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if 
> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind 
> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow 
> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know 
> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some 
> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at 
> all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
> account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
> yla%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
> account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theblues
> isloose%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
> account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> 
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> yla%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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> account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> 
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> 0gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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From valandkayla at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 00:37:21 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:37:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <A8E4A00163314B31A152CE3B1D393067@Ashley>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com>
	<A8E4A00163314B31A152CE3B1D393067@Ashley>
Message-ID: <17817DEF-92F3-4644-B81C-1628A6288BEB@gmail.com>

a bit of an after thought when i was talking about my two options. Either way, i would have to do option 2, wether or not i got into the school or not so that i couls tay up to date on new dog training techniques, but i have more to gain i think with option one
On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote:

> No having a sighted assistant occassionally does not altar the program or your job. Blind employees do it all the time.  For instance teachers of the vision impaired who are blind have sighted help administering low vision assessments.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think. It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>> 
>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>> 
>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>> 
>> Thank you for your feedback.
>> 
>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>> 
>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted students.
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,
>>> 
>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>> 
>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>> 
>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for you.
>>> 
>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> Val!
>>> 
>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>> 
>>>>>> Justin
>>> 
>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>> 
>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>> 
>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves. It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants. I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> -- 
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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> 
> 
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From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 17 02:18:26 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:18:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinc26T7OR-O535g0y11RPsV_79Bhs-pnf-OULAY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <293172.13989.qm@web30902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Robert,
Thank you.  In essence, that is what my response, I'll be it a little harsh was trying to stress the other day.


--- On Mon, 8/16/10, Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Robert Spangler <spangler.robert at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Monday, August 16, 2010, 5:04 PM
> The problem with this view is that we
> as blind people are labeled as
> walking lawsuits.  My ability to get a job has been
> severely limited
> by such laws as the ADA which, FORCE, companies to
> comply.  who would
> want to hire someone who has a larger chance of potentially
> sueing
> them?  I sure wouldn't.  I would wish to hire the
> person who is going
> to cost my business less and will allow me to operate much
> more
> efficiently.  that being said, I am able to walk into
> any business
> with all of the equipment that I will need to conduct the
> job without
> asking the company to buy it for me.  the utilization
> of force never
> works; it will cause companies to look for ways around
> hiring us.
> 
> On 8/15/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> wrote:
> > I'm not Ashley, but I can tell you what echolation
> is.
> >
> > Just like light, sound bounces off of, or is absorbed
> by, objects and
> > then bounces back into our ears. Echolocation takes
> advantage of this
> > in the same way sight does. The main difference is
> that, for the most
> > part, there is an outside light source apart from the
> seer. In this
> > case, the listener generally produces the sound that
> will bounce off of
> > objects. Cane taps are usually sufficient. The quality
> of the sound
> > tells the listener if it has been absorbed or bounced
> back and to what
> > extent. Those who get good at it can even tell the
> shapes of the
> > objects they listen to, where they are exactly
> located, and how far
> > away they are. A listener can also gain this kind of
> information by
> > using outside sound sources and listening to how those
> sounds bounce
> > off of the objects they're close to.
> >
> > The average echolocation user can generally tell where
> trees and bushes
> > are, people, large buildings, glass windows and doors,
> metalic objects
> > like cars, curbs, and other very noticeable things
> like that. Some of
> > us can tell smaller objects such as street poles,
> planters, and other
> > things of the sort. Echolocation takes practice. I had
> to study it in
> > Louisiana (I studied under Roland Allen, who is quite
> adept at
> > echolocation). I would love to study under Dan Kish,
> the king of
> > echolocation, however.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Jedi
> >
> > Original message:
> >> Hello Ashley,
> >> What is echolocation?
> >> Thanks,
> >> Dennis
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list"
> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 3:13 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues
> Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
> >
> >
> >>> Hi Anmol and all,
> >>> No don't place your hand in front at all
> times, but yes I think its
> >>> reasonable to place an arm up or something to
> protect you when you are
> >>> coming to an obstacle like a branch.  You
> can perceive this through
> >>> echolocation or if its familiar you remember
> the overhanging obstacle.
> >
> >>> Ashley
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list"
> >>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 5:29 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues
> Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
> >>> tree
> >
> >
> >>>> Good points Sean!
> >>>> To who ever said to keep your hand in
> frunt to prevent the branch from
> >>>> hitting you, we do not when a tree is in
> frunt and the branches are
> >>>> hanging out so does this mean we should
> walk around with our hand in
> >>>> frunt at all times?
> >>>> Anmol
> >
> >
> >>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>>>> From: Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues
> Wienerschnitzel over run-in with
> >>>>> tree
> >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:22
> PM
> >>>>> Thank you Dennis!
> >
> >>>>> You said everything I wanted to say,
> and then some.
> >
> >>>>> If the man was injured and incurred
> costs from the injury,
> >>>>> he has a case. A
> >>>>> sighted person could sue in the
> circumstances described
> >>>>> where the branch is
> >>>>> not illuminated at night. The limb
> causing injury is
> >>>>> foreseeable, and
> >>>>> somebody was negligent.
> >
> >>>>> A few other thoughts brought up by the
> discussion so far:
> >
> >>>>> The idea that I should always have my
> hand in front of my
> >>>>> face is
> >>>>> ridiculous. If it works for you, I'm
> not knocking it, but
> >>>>> it certainly isn't
> >>>>> a requirement of safe travel.
> >
> >>>>> Walking at a somewhat reduced pace in
> unfamiliar areas
> >>>>> seems reasonable. I
> >>>>> do it, and I don't think that
> exercising some caution
> >>>>> indicates that I have
> >>>>> subpar travel skills. Once you are
> familiar with an area,
> >>>>> it is certainly
> >>>>> easier to navigate it more quickly.
> >
> >>>>> Kirt is right in that this maybe
> shouldn't be news, but
> >>>>> neither should a
> >>>>> blind person graduating from a
> university, and I see that
> >>>>> kind of thing
> >>>>> written up frequently. Blindness is
> different, and makes a
> >>>>> story more
> >>>>> interesting to the general public. Not
> saying I like it,
> >>>>> just saying it's
> >>>>> so.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> > --
> > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile
> Network.  Visit
> > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility
> anywhere.
> >
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Robert Spangler
> The University of Toledo
> Student Senator - Administrative Affairs Committee Chair,
> College of
> Arts and Sciences
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 02:30:41 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:30:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] a couple more questions about travel/cane technique
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimiceGA4wO=wFfdYUs1i5R2+dtx-5cpq61Zh8EF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimiceGA4wO=wFfdYUs1i5R2+dtx-5cpq61Zh8EF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim7KebtPu8jcd0hvG2mhQ8OqPtZ1PVyuxGNrpQe@mail.gmail.com>

When following, I soemteims follow behind and sometimes beside the
person. It depends on several things. If it is someone I know, I'll
place a hand on their shoulder or upper arm to keep in contact with
them and keep them in my "sight" and walk beside them. A stranger, I
might as for an elbow or tell them that I can follow behind them. I
don't tell them I can follow behind if I know I can't. I know I can
follow behind if they have 1) brightly coloured clothes, 2) a
distinctive smell, or 3) high heels or other noisy shoes. It is a
matter of preference, really. I prefer to walk beside the person or
behind, not touching or using sighted guide. This is mainly because of
my poor balance that has caused some people to be knocked off balance
by me and the nerve damage in my body that makes it hurt to be
touched. Try it both ways a few times and see what is easier for you.
There's no hard fast rule.

As for the arcing...I always use a "pencil grip." Wrap your hand
around the cane with your thumb and index finger on opposite sides.
Grip the cane with all fingers except the index finger, which is
pointing down the shaft of the cane (as if you are pointing at where
your cane is pointing). It's hard to describe, but you know how you
hold a pen to sign a paper? That's how I hold my cane. This allows me
to swing the cane with only my wrist, and on good days, I swing it
with just the two fingers, using the middle finger as a sort of rest
on which the cane sits...hard to describe, which I could just show
you. And when my  hands are very full, I have actually used just my
index finger to sweep the cane back and forth (rolling with a roller
tip, not arcing) and holding the cane against my hand with whatever
I'm carrying.

I hope this makes some sense...ask someone in your area if there is
anyone? I'm sure they'd be willing to show you how they hold their
cane. Ask them if they use a "pencil grip." In my opinion, that is the
best grip, as it gives the most fluid movement of the wrist and most
stable hold on the cane.

~Jewel

On 8/16/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All!
>
> I have a couple of more questions about travel, and proper arc/cane
> technique.
>
> When you follow
> someone, do you usually walk behind them or beside them? Do you find it
> harder to hear the person if you are following behind them as they are
> usually walking ahead of you with their back turned to you? Is it
> easier to hear someone if you walk beside them?
>
> Also, when doing a proper arc with the two-point touch technique is it
> supposed to be/feel wide since it is covering both sides from shoulder
> to shoulder? When doing a proper arc for the first time should it feel
> a little strained/unnatural/too wide at first?
>
> How do most of you do the open-palm technique? I was taught it once
> very briefly at convention...the way I do it is I keep my palm facing
> up, as flat as possible holding the cane with all my fingers wrapped
> around it. I then move the cane with both my wrist and hand. I read
> that your supposed to move the cane with only three fingers...but I
> can't figure this out...it seems tricky and doesn't feel as
> comfortable as moving both my hand and wrist does. How do all of you
> do it?
>
> Thanks,
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 17 02:50:00 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:50:00 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com><F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus>
	<2841182F-DC36-4C5E-8019-D14687A2AB8E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012301cb3db6$e32201b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Valerie and everyone,

    If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider 
your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or 
other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this 
purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors can 
be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has 
been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors. People 
who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe 
that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!

    I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with 
success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle 
aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers before 
persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to 
deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this 
helps.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


Joe,

The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and i 
could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to look 
for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations, for 
the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing when 
to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back. 
They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the 
dog is doing.

Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not 
dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test, 
and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that 
working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.

So the way i se it, i have two options:

1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon 
graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40  to 
60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt. 
Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits of 
250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and 300 
hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal 
shelters.

or

2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many 
dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can, 
apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer at 
a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to 
market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was talking 
about.

Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts

Val

PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

> Valerie,
>
> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how 
> to
> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed 
> a
> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious 
> all
> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With 
> something
> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
> assistance.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
> having a reader read tests.
>
> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
> the situation.
>
> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
> Thank you for your feedback.
>
> Val
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
> may benefit sighted students.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>> but having that alternative training available has
> revoluationized the
>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Greetings all,
>>
>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
> headquarters,
>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
> I gave him a
>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>
>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
> shared. Going
>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
> the fall of
>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
> think, he will
>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>
>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
> fundalmental training
>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
> program for you.
>>
>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>
>>>>> Val!
>>
>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>
>>>>> Justin
>>
>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>
>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>
>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
> dog trainer in some
>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
> test that will
>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
> do plan on
>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>
>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
> training school, the
>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
> confrontational pet
>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
> to happen since
>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>
>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
> plan to contact the
>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>
>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
> now, my own family is
>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
> is nevertheless.
>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>
>>
>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
> time i'll kep you
>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
> thought about becoming a
>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>
>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
> discrimination we
>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
> blind people,
>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
> underlying attitude
>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
> services, but
>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
> that people
>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
> school expect
>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
> where their dog
>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>
>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
> people like me for
>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
> school and
>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
> violent guy?
>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>> Beth
>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
> health problems in
>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>
>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
> in universities,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
> people who do not
>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
> another school that
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
> time about my
>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
> associated with
>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>
>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
> all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
> yla%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
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> isloose%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
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> sident%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
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> yla%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>
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> 0gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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> djedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> -- 
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.
> Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Aug 17 03:08:36 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:08:36 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <20100817030836.20952.22110@web3>

By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially 
aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in 
the classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that 
sight is required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That 
probably wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but 
the dog training school would definitely be problematic for that 
reason. It would be like saying that a blind person can be a cane 
travel teacher and monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for 
a sighted person to come along to monitor the student visually. Also, 
by asking for a sighted person to tag along, the issue of non-visual 
access to the training doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and 
the status quo remains. Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds 
counterintuitive to what you're trying to advocate.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just 
> to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i 
> would think.  It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.

> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could 
> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to 
> give me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.

> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

> Thank you for your feedback.

> Val
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the 
>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets 
>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted students.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> Original message:
>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi

>>> Original message:
>>>> Greetings all,

>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him a
>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental training
>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for you.

>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>>>> Val!

>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>>>> Justin

>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. ittrains
>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer in some
>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that will
>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training school, the
>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a confrontational pet
>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen since
>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to contact the
>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own family is
>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is nevertheless.
>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll kep you
>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about becoming a
>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind people,
>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying attitude
>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, but
>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that people
>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school expect
>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their dog
>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>>>> Arielle

>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me for
>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent guy?
>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one seems to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects related to
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems in
>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they liked, then
>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, "now
>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they would
>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in universities,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do not
>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to train
>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation that i
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school that
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but not
>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about my
>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it and
>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the case
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the current
>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to board their
>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing


>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com


>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org

>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Aug 17 03:19:23 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:19:23 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <20100817031923.24122.71652@web2>

I've already said something similar, but I think it's worth saying 
again. By having a sighted person give you visual feedback on the dog, 
the notion that sight is requiried for that feedback in the first place 
is reconfirmed. Instead, it would be worth it to you for all kinds of 
reasons to learn to get that feedback non-visually. Not only would you 
prove that sight is not required thereby opening opportunities for 
other blind people, but you also have a skill set that you can use 
whether sighted people are available or not. Does that make sense?

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Joe,

> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, 
> and i could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on 
> what to look for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in 
> agressive situations, for  the most part, not being able to see would 
> hender me ffrom not knowing when to react. Hence bringing along someone 
> who could give me visual feed back.  They wouldn't be telling me what 
> to do; they would be telling me what the dog is doing.

> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not 
> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification 
> test, and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was 
> that working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.

> So the way i se it, i have two options:

> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job 
> apon graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course 
> of 40  to 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate 
> under my belt. Then after the school, take a national certification 
> test, which consits of 250 multiple choice questions relating to every 
> part of dog training and 300 hours of dog traing with 25 percent of 
> that being working at local animal shelters.

> or

> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as 
> many dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i 
> can, apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, 
> volonteer at a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes 
> to learn how to market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice 
> question test i was talking about.

> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts

> Val

> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>> Valerie,

>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how to
>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed a
>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious all
>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With something
>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>> assistance.

>> Best,

>> Joe

>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>> having a reader read tests.

>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>> the situation.

>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

>> Thank you for your feedback.

>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>> may benefit sighted students.

>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi

>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>> revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,

>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>> headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>> I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>> shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>> the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>> think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>> fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>> program for you.

>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>>>>> Val!

>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>>>>> Justin

>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>> test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>> do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>> training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>> to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>> blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>> services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>> that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>> school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>> where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>>>>> Arielle

>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>> school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>> all."--Sam Ewing


>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:

>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>> yla%40gmail.com


>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:

>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theblues
>> isloose%40gmail.com


>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:

>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pre
>> sident%40gmail.com



>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org

>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>> account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:

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>> yla%40gmail.com


>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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From mewhalen at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 03:20:42 2010
From: mewhalen at gmail.com (Meghan Whalen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:20:42 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com><F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus><2841182F-DC36-4C5E-8019-D14687A2AB8E@gmail.com>
	<012301cb3db6$e32201b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <01B5F97EFBBD4AA18F6E3B80648CF6AE@YOURZVIRQM73LR>

Peter:

Some of what you say is true, however, a blind person cannot tell if the dog 
is giving a whale eye.  There are some dogs who do not make a sound before 
making an agressive move.  There are a series of visual indicators before a 
dog begins barking and/or growling.

I am in no way saying blind people cannot train dogs.  I live with a fear 
agressive dog, and we get on just fine since I can read him, but I'm sure 
there have been situations I could have more quickly quelled if there had 
been someone who could see who could have told me what the dog is doing.

The idea of having someone sighted there to provide visual feedback is far 
from rubbish.  Dogs are very visual animals.  There are so many nuances of 
their language we cannot pick up on, and there are so many that a 
well-trained eye, or a blind person asking the right questions, can pick up 
on.

This is actually something I too would love to do for a living.  I was going 
to go through the same school and became discouraged when I read of the 
restrictions.  Back then, I wasn't much of a fighter.

Regardless, telling someone to choose a different career because they are 
seaking opinions and/or solutions is not exactly the support I am used to 
finding within the NFB.

Take care,
Meghan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


> Hello Valerie and everyone,
>
>    If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider
> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or
> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this
> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors 
> can
> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has
> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors. 
> People
> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe
> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
>
>    I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with
> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle
> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers 
> before
> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to
> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this
> helps.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing
> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
> Joe,
>
> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and 
> i
> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to 
> look
> for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations, 
> for
> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing 
> when
> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back.
> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the
> dog is doing.
>
> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not
> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test,
> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that
> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.
>
> So the way i se it, i have two options:
>
> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon
> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40 
> to
> 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt.
> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits 
> of
> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and 
> 300
> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal
> shelters.
>
> or
>
> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many
> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can,
> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer 
> at
> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to
> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was 
> talking
> about.
>
> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
>
> Val
>
> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Valerie,
>>
>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how
>> to
>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you 
>> needed
>> a
>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious
>> all
>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With
>> something
>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>> assistance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>
>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>> having a reader read tests.
>>
>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>> the situation.
>>
>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>>
>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>
>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>
>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>> may benefit sighted students.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>> revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>
>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>> headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>> I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>>
>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>> shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>> the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>> think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>>
>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>> fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>> program for you.
>>>
>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Val!
>>>
>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>>
>>>>>> Justin
>>>
>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>>
>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>> test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>> do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>>
>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>> training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>> to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>>
>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>> blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>> services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>> that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>> school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>> where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>> school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theblues
>> isloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pre
>> sident%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>> 0gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>
>>>
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>> djedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.
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From mewhalen at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 03:24:47 2010
From: mewhalen at gmail.com (Meghan Whalen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:24:47 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100817030836.20952.22110@web3>
Message-ID: <091DC56F544D4FA29B3E0105A12CF27C@YOURZVIRQM73LR>

Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I don't 
think it is fare to be comparing the two.

Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when 
you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues that 
he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to figure 
out obstacle with a cane.

I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification is 
needed.

Meghan
I'm
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially 
> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the 
> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is 
> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably 
> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog 
> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It would 
> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and 
> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to 
> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a sighted 
> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training 
> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains. 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying to 
> advocate.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering 
>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me 
>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think. 
>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>
>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could 
>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give 
>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>
>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
>> Thank you for your feedback.
>
>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the 
>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets 
>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted 
>>> students.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,
>
>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him 
>>>>> a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>
>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>
>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental 
>>>>> training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for 
>>>>> you.
>
>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>
>>>>>> Val!
>
>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>
>>>>>> Justin
>
>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>
>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs. 
>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>
>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer 
>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that 
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>
>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training 
>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a 
>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen 
>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>
>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to 
>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>
>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own 
>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is 
>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>
>
>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll 
>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about 
>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15, 
>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>
>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind 
>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying 
>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services, 
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that 
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school 
>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their 
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me 
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So 
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent 
>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply 
>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one 
>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects 
>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems 
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they 
>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them, 
>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they 
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in 
>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>
>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do 
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to 
>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>
>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation 
>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to 
>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school 
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves. 
>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but 
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an 
>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few 
>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about 
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two 
>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the 
>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the 
>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the 
>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another 
>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but 
>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she 
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other 
>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants. 
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to 
>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at 
>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam 
>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
>
>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>
>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
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From mewhalen at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 03:33:19 2010
From: mewhalen at gmail.com (Meghan Whalen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:33:19 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100817031923.24122.71652@web2>
Message-ID: <CE7F2255529C4CE4B8C99CC4DBF377E7@YOURZVIRQM73LR>

If fighto will bight your hand off if you touch him, and he is lifting his 
lip, or moving his eyes/ears/tail/body in an aggressive manor, but making no 
sound, I'm surely not going to be fool enough to touch him to figure out 
what he's doing.

If someone tells me their dog is aggressive and bites strangers when they 
try to pet him, I'm not going to give it a try with no one to provide 
critical information about his body language.  Dogs can and are silently 
aggressive.  Their tension can sometimes be found exclusively in the 
tightness of their muscles, the rigidity of the tail wag etc.  As I said 
before, this is not to say that a blind person cannot work with aggressive 
dogs, it is just to help you all understand that there are just some things 
that can not magically be made accessible.  There are other methods perhaps, 
but the body language is critical while working with dogs.

I'm trying to come up with an analogy and drastically failing.  There are 
some circumstances where a reader is the only option.  Why are we okay with 
that and not telling people to figure out another way?  Just as deaf people 
have interpreters when they cannot read a situation, having someone describe 
the dog's body language is reasonable.

Would it be fare to say that the deaf person working with an interpreter was 
not independent?  No, of course not.  He has advocated for what he needs to 
be independent.

I think we are trapped in an attitude of extreme criticism.  It is so 
important to understand that independence lies in the heart of each of us. 
If I had never gone out on my own, and I walked around the block, I would 
feel amazing.  I would feel so independent and free, and who cares if that's 
no big deal to you.  It has given me that serge, that desire to keep 
reaching.

I am rambling at this point, so I will cease fire.

Meghan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


> I've already said something similar, but I think it's worth saying again. 
> By having a sighted person give you visual feedback on the dog, the notion 
> that sight is requiried for that feedback in the first place is 
> reconfirmed. Instead, it would be worth it to you for all kinds of reasons 
> to learn to get that feedback non-visually. Not only would you prove that 
> sight is not required thereby opening opportunities for other blind 
> people, but you also have a skill set that you can use whether sighted 
> people are available or not. Does that make sense?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Joe,
>
>> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, 
>> and i could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what 
>> to look for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive 
>> situations, for  the most part, not being able to see would hender me 
>> ffrom not knowing when to react. Hence bringing along someone who could 
>> give me visual feed back.  They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they 
>> would be telling me what the dog is doing.
>
>> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not 
>> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test, 
>> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that 
>> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit 
>> easier.
>
>> So the way i se it, i have two options:
>
>> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon 
>> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40 
>> to 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my 
>> belt. Then after the school, take a national certification test, which 
>> consits of 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog 
>> training and 300 hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being 
>> working at local animal shelters.
>
>> or
>
>> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many 
>> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can, 
>> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer 
>> at a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how 
>> to market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was 
>> talking about.
>
>> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
>
>> Val
>
>> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>> Valerie,
>
>>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school. 
>>> It
>>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning 
>>> how to
>>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you 
>>> needed a
>>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious 
>>> all
>>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With 
>>> something
>>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>>> assistance.
>
>>> Best,
>
>>> Joe
>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>>> having a reader read tests.
>
>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>>> the situation.
>
>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>
>>> Val
>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>>> may benefit sighted students.
>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>>> revoluationized the
>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Greetings all,
>
>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>> headquarters,
>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>>> I gave him a
>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>
>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>>> shared. Going
>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>>> the fall of
>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>>> think, he will
>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>
>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>>> fundalmental training
>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>>> program for you.
>
>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Val!
>
>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>
>>>>>>> Justin
>
>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>
>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>
>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>>> test that will
>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>>> do plan on
>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>
>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>>> training school, the
>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>>> to happen since
>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>
>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>
>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>
>
>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>
>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>>> blind people,
>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>> services, but
>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>>> that people
>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>>> school expect
>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>>> where their dog
>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>
>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>>> school and
>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>>> all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>
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>>> yla%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Aug 17 03:39:06 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:39:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>

I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might 
be. Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly 
believe that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel 
with a cane independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision 
is required to maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; 
these individuals are as certain on the necessity of vision for 
independent travel and/or teaching independent travel as some blind and 
sighted people are regarding the need for vision in dog training. It's 
important to recognize that in every situation like this, that our lack 
of knowledge on non-visual techniques in a given field does not 
necessarily mean that something can't be done non-visually. Likewise, 
we must be careful in assuming that vision is necessary in a given 
field because conventional wisdom tends to support the primacy of sight 
without giving any thought to the possibility of non-visual capacity 
for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's important to 
ask myself whether or not something really requires sight before I 
assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in a 
field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of 
creativity on my part.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I don't
> think it is fare to be comparing the two.

> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues that
> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to figure
> out obstacle with a cane.

> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification is
> needed.

> Meghan
> I'm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It would
>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a sighted
>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying to
>> advocate.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> Original message:
>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering
>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think.
>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.

>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give
>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.

>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

>>> Thank you for your feedback.

>>> Val
>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>> students.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi

>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Greetings all,

>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>> training
>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>> you.

>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>>>>>> Val!

>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>>>>>> Justin

>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer
>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll
>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services,
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>>>>>> Arielle

>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.  So
>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply
>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems
>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do
>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to
>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to
>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the
>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the
>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she
>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other
>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing


>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org

>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> for
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> --
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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From mewhalen at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 03:44:57 2010
From: mewhalen at gmail.com (Meghan Whalen)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:44:57 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>
Message-ID: <B80DC8891F5940D0AF56A15C380FA766@YOURZVIRQM73LR>

I never said sight is necessary.  I am currently raising and training a 
guide dog puppy.  I live with an aggressive dog.

I'm just pointing out that there are definitely some visual parts of dog 
training that are simply that, visual.

I agree there are other methods, that is undisputable.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be. 
>Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe 
>that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane 
>independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to 
>maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are 
>as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or 
>teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding 
>the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in 
>every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual 
>techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't 
>be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision 
>is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support 
>the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of 
>non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's 
>important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight 
>before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in 
>a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of 
>creativity on my part.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I 
>> don't
>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>
>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues 
>> that
>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to 
>> figure
>> out obstacle with a cane.
>
>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification 
>> is
>> needed.
>
>> Meghan
>> I'm
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It 
>>> would
>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a 
>>> sighted
>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying 
>>> to
>>> advocate.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
>>>> altering
>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would 
>>>> think.
>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>
>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to 
>>>> give
>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>
>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>
>>>> Val
>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>> students.
>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>
>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind 
>>>>>>> headquarters,
>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave 
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>
>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. 
>>>>>>> Going
>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he 
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>
>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>> you.
>
>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Val!
>
>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>
>>>>>>>> Justin
>
>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>
>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>
>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog 
>>>>>>>>> trainer
>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan 
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>
>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>
>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>
>
>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time 
>>>>>>>>> i'll
>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination 
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized 
>>>>>>>>>> services,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like 
>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters. 
>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health 
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who 
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
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>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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> 



From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 17 03:57:37 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:57:37 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS1753EE2A15BCFE1D2C9E608B9B0@phx.gbl>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776><AANLkTikQy+hj6ky9=UWQwUgiC0WjRniyRafK-a+iqSse@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY130-DS1753EE2A15BCFE1D2C9E608B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <3571FA7BB7E243888CD3D752B4F4FF33@windows4c0ed96>

Hi, I also have this issue with  transportation to my water aerobics class.
Let me know how you do with ariel's ideas.  In a lucky scenario, which
depends on personal chemistry striking, I guess, you might find a work out
buddy near you and travel together.  I used to belong to a gym, and
sometimes this worked for me.  Ginnie

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Rob Blachowicz
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:31 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue

Thanks I never even thought of that option.  I will be sure to post that on 
the message board next week when school starts.
Rob


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:19 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue

> Hi Rob,
>
> If you're a student you could try advertising on student listservs at
> your school, or with the student employment office, for a driver you
> could pay $7/hr or so for the health club and other trips. You could
> also talk with community service clubs at your school (such as
> sororities, frats, or purely service organizations) and see if there
> are students looking for volunteer hours, and then offer volunteer
> time in exchange for rides. Even though the drivers aren't getting
> paid directly, they need the hours for a requirement, which will keep
> them accountable. I know some honors programs/courses require service
> hours as well.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 8/16/10, Karrie Kinstetter <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was going to suggest that as well.
>> Other than that, I'm not sure what else to tell you on this matter.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know
>>> own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only
>>> other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
>>>  --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>
>>>> Rob,
>>>> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to 
>>>> do
>>>>
>>>> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my entire
>>>> county...
>>>> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them
>>>> $20 or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have 
>>>> no
>>>>
>>>> options... well... yeah.
>>>> Hth,
>>>> Karrie
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus 
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to 
>>>>> offer
>>>>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus or
>>>>> in relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new advice
>>>>> that I'm not aware of.
>>>>> Rob
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
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ail.com
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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il.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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From valandkayla at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 03:59:19 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:59:19 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <012301cb3db6$e32201b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com><F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus>
	<2841182F-DC36-4C5E-8019-D14687A2AB8E@gmail.com>
	<012301cb3db6$e32201b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <FCE42456-E060-416A-B68D-2C7ED31C10B9@gmail.com>

I agree that you don't need vision to be able to see if a dog is behaving agressively. i've grown up with as many as 13 dogs at a time. my point is, if i'm going to continue to get negative fedback from the school, i could find an alternative way to become a dog trainer.
On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:

> Hello Valerie and everyone,
> 
>    If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider 
> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or 
> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this 
> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors can 
> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has 
> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors. People 
> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe 
> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
> 
>    I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with 
> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle 
> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers before 
> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to 
> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this 
> helps.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and i 
> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to look 
> for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations, for 
> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing when 
> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back. 
> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the 
> dog is doing.
> 
> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not 
> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test, 
> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that 
> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.
> 
> So the way i se it, i have two options:
> 
> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon 
> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40  to 
> 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt. 
> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits of 
> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and 300 
> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal 
> shelters.
> 
> or
> 
> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many 
> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can, 
> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer at 
> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to 
> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was talking 
> about.
> 
> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
> 
> Val
> 
> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
> 
>> Valerie,
>> 
>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how 
>> to
>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed 
>> a
>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious 
>> all
>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With 
>> something
>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>> assistance.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>> having a reader read tests.
>> 
>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>> the situation.
>> 
>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>> 
>> Thank you for your feedback.
>> 
>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>> 
>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>> may benefit sighted students.
>>> 
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>> revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,
>>> 
>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>> headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>> I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>> 
>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>> shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>> the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>> think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>> 
>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>> fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>> program for you.
>>> 
>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> Val!
>>> 
>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>> 
>>>>>> Justin
>>> 
>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>> test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>> do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>> 
>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>> training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>> to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>> 
>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>> 
>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>> 
>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>> blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>> services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>> that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>> school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>> where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>> school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>> yla%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>> 
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>> sident%40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 04:01:31 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:01:31 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>
References: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>
Message-ID: <630FE7F8D7F3493FB1A69C501C426D7E@MarcPC>

I don't read Meghan as assuming sight is necessary so much as offering 
arguments for why certain aspects of training a dog can be visual.  I do 
completely agree that much of what we think requires sight only really 
requires some imagination, patience, and hard work.  There are very few 
things that I think a sufficiently motivated blind person cannot do. 
However, one important difference between training a person in mobility and 
training an animal is the use of language.  You can ask the person to 
describe what exactly she is doing.  You can't do this with a dog; though 
you can ask someone else, as has been suggested, to describe the actions of 
the dog.  Like Meghan, I don't mean to suggest that it can't be done, but 
the ability of the one being trained to use language does seem to be a 
fairly important difference between the cases of mobility instructor and dog 
trainer.

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be. 
>Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe 
>that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane 
>independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to 
>maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are 
>as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or 
>teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding 
>the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in 
>every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual 
>techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't 
>be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision 
>is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support 
>the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of 
>non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's 
>important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight 
>before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in 
>a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of 
>creativity on my part.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I 
>> don't
>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>
>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues 
>> that
>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to 
>> figure
>> out obstacle with a cane.
>
>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification 
>> is
>> needed.
>
>> Meghan
>> I'm
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It 
>>> would
>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a 
>>> sighted
>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying 
>>> to
>>> advocate.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
>>>> altering
>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would 
>>>> think.
>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>
>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to 
>>>> give
>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>
>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>
>>>> Val
>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>> students.
>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>
>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind 
>>>>>>> headquarters,
>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave 
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>
>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. 
>>>>>>> Going
>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he 
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>
>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>> you.
>
>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Val!
>
>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>
>>>>>>>> Justin
>
>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>
>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>
>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog 
>>>>>>>>> trainer
>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan 
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>
>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>
>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>
>
>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time 
>>>>>>>>> i'll
>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination 
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized 
>>>>>>>>>> services,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like 
>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters. 
>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health 
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who 
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
>
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>
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>
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From valandkayla at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 04:02:55 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:02:55 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <01B5F97EFBBD4AA18F6E3B80648CF6AE@YOURZVIRQM73LR>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com><F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus><2841182F-DC36-4C5E-8019-D14687A2AB8E@gmail.com>
	<012301cb3db6$e32201b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<01B5F97EFBBD4AA18F6E3B80648CF6AE@YOURZVIRQM73LR>
Message-ID: <A4BE7F2E-E1F7-4BC6-8A70-03B2A0B05465@gmail.com>

Totally agree with you Meghan.  I'm hearing a lot of what not to do, so if anyone has any solutions on how to handle agressive dogs nonvisually,  i'm all ears.

I am trying to find blind dog trainers, so again, if anyone knows of any, please send them my way, if they don't mind.

Thanks so much for your help thus far.

Val
On Aug 16, 2010, at 10:20 PM, Meghan Whalen wrote:

> Peter:
> 
> Some of what you say is true, however, a blind person cannot tell if the dog is giving a whale eye.  There are some dogs who do not make a sound before making an agressive move.  There are a series of visual indicators before a dog begins barking and/or growling.
> 
> I am in no way saying blind people cannot train dogs.  I live with a fear agressive dog, and we get on just fine since I can read him, but I'm sure there have been situations I could have more quickly quelled if there had been someone who could see who could have told me what the dog is doing.
> 
> The idea of having someone sighted there to provide visual feedback is far from rubbish.  Dogs are very visual animals.  There are so many nuances of their language we cannot pick up on, and there are so many that a well-trained eye, or a blind person asking the right questions, can pick up on.
> 
> This is actually something I too would love to do for a living.  I was going to go through the same school and became discouraged when I read of the restrictions.  Back then, I wasn't much of a fighter.
> 
> Regardless, telling someone to choose a different career because they are seaking opinions and/or solutions is not exactly the support I am used to finding within the NFB.
> 
> Take care,
> Meghan
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
>> Hello Valerie and everyone,
>> 
>>   If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider
>> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or
>> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this
>> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors can
>> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has
>> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors. People
>> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe
>> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
>> 
>>   I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with
>> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle
>> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers before
>> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to
>> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this
>> helps.
>> 
>> Peter Donahue
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
>> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing
>> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> 
>> Joe,
>> 
>> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and i
>> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to look
>> for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations, for
>> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing when
>> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back.
>> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the
>> dog is doing.
>> 
>> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not
>> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test,
>> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that
>> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.
>> 
>> So the way i se it, i have two options:
>> 
>> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon
>> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40 to
>> 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt.
>> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits of
>> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and 300
>> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal
>> shelters.
>> 
>> or
>> 
>> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many
>> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can,
>> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer at
>> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to
>> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was talking
>> about.
>> 
>> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
>> 
>> Val
>> 
>> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>> 
>>> Valerie,
>>> 
>>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how
>>> to
>>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed
>>> a
>>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious
>>> all
>>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With
>>> something
>>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>>> assistance.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Joe
>>> 
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>> 
>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>>> having a reader read tests.
>>> 
>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>>> the situation.
>>> 
>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>> 
>>> Val
>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>>> may benefit sighted students.
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>>> revoluationized the
>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>>> 
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>> 
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>> 
>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>> headquarters,
>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>>> I gave him a
>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>>> 
>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>>> shared. Going
>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>>> the fall of
>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>>> think, he will
>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>>> 
>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>>> fundalmental training
>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>>> program for you.
>>>> 
>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Val!
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Justin
>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>>> test that will
>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>>> do plan on
>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>>> training school, the
>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>>> to happen since
>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>>> blind people,
>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>> services, but
>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>>> that people
>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>>> school expect
>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>>> where their dog
>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>>> school and
>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>> account info for
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>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>> isloose%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>> sident%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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>>>>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> 
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>>> 0gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> account info for nabs-l:
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>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
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>>> djedi%40samobile.net
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.
>>> Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 04:10:33 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:10:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <3571FA7BB7E243888CD3D752B4F4FF33@windows4c0ed96>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776><AANLkTikQy+hj6ky9=UWQwUgiC0WjRniyRafK-a+iqSse@mail.gmail.com><BAY130-DS1753EE2A15BCFE1D2C9E608B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<3571FA7BB7E243888CD3D752B4F4FF33@windows4c0ed96>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS1337DCFA1D1F2435D84C098B9C0@phx.gbl>

Well I didn't think this would be an option but after all of that I think I 
found aplace that's almost the same as the place I was looking at so I don't 
think I'll even need to worry and this place is covered by the bus.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "V Nork" <ginisd at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 11:57 PM
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue

> Hi, I also have this issue with  transportation to my water aerobics 
> class.
> Let me know how you do with ariel's ideas.  In a lucky scenario, which
> depends on personal chemistry striking, I guess, you might find a work out
> buddy near you and travel together.  I used to belong to a gym, and
> sometimes this worked for me.  Ginnie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Rob Blachowicz
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:31 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
> Thanks I never even thought of that option.  I will be sure to post that 
> on
> the message board next week when school starts.
> Rob
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 6:19 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>> If you're a student you could try advertising on student listservs at
>> your school, or with the student employment office, for a driver you
>> could pay $7/hr or so for the health club and other trips. You could
>> also talk with community service clubs at your school (such as
>> sororities, frats, or purely service organizations) and see if there
>> are students looking for volunteer hours, and then offer volunteer
>> time in exchange for rides. Even though the drivers aren't getting
>> paid directly, they need the hours for a requirement, which will keep
>> them accountable. I know some honors programs/courses require service
>> hours as well.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 8/16/10, Karrie Kinstetter <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I was going to suggest that as well.
>>> Other than that, I'm not sure what else to tell you on this matter.
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I know
>>>> own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; the only
>>>> other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.
>>>>  --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Karrie Kinstetter" <skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 3:28 PM
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>>
>>>>> Rob,
>>>>> If there aren't any of those services available, well.. you'll have to
>>>>> do
>>>>>
>>>>> what I'm forced to do, since I have none of those services in my 
>>>>> entire
>>>>> county...
>>>>> What I've ended up doing is asking family or friends and offering them
>>>>> $20 or so for the trip. It's a pain relying on others, but if you have
>>>>> no
>>>>>
>>>>> options... well... yeah.
>>>>> Hth,
>>>>> Karrie
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:22 PM
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello everyone,
>>>>>> This is nothing new what I'm about to discuss.  The Problem of no bus
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no parrit transit of where I want to go.  My insurance happens to
>>>>>> offer
>>>>>> health club memberships.  The place I want to go isn't near the bus 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> in relm of the parrit transit system.  Does anyone have any new 
>>>>>> advice
>>>>>> that I'm not aware of.
>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gm
> ail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.
> com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
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> ail.com
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>>> signature database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature
>>> database 5371 (20100816) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma
> il.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.
> com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From valandkayla at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 04:16:57 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:16:57 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <630FE7F8D7F3493FB1A69C501C426D7E@MarcPC>
References: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>
	<630FE7F8D7F3493FB1A69C501C426D7E@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <2C8E997C-B29F-41F3-BBFF-B992149F9B39@gmail.com>

I would like to commend meghan on her analogy of a dog to a deaf person, as that is what i was going for when i brought up the idea of having a sighted person to come along and tell me what the dog is doing.

Dogs don't just chillax onemoment and jump up and lunge at you at the next instant. there are cues that the dog would give.

And who knows, i may decide for the first year or so that i do not want to train agressive dogs, but for the purpose of the school, i need some ideas.

I had an akita, who passed away last week at the age of 11. When he was a puppy, we took him to obediance classes.  If anyone knows dogs, you'll know thatan akita is known to be fierce, loyal, and yes prone to violence when not properly socialized.  Because i worked with him, he never had a problem with violence.  My trainer was the type who trained me to train the dog, so i do know blind people can train obediance.

As i have said before, and as meghan pointed out, i would be using a sighted person to tell me what the dog is doing, very similar to an interpreter.
I asked you guys about that idea to see if it was a good one, not to advocate that blind people couldn't train.  I also asked that question so that maybe someone would have a better idea.  Right now, i'm only hearing how i'm hearing a bit how my idea was a bad one.

As i have said in my last email, i am trying to search for blind trainers to seek thier advice as well, and i am also registering for some dog training mailing lists to see if even a sighted person is willing ot think out of the box for this one.

If anyone knows of a blind trainer, or even a sighted one, hwho is willing to help me out, i would love to hear from them, or if anyone has any creative ideas, i'm listening.

I again thank you for all of your help and constructive critism thus far. Keep the comments coming. :)
Val
On Aug 16, 2010, at 11:01 PM, Marc Workman wrote:

> I don't read Meghan as assuming sight is necessary so much as offering arguments for why certain aspects of training a dog can be visual.  I do completely agree that much of what we think requires sight only really requires some imagination, patience, and hard work.  There are very few things that I think a sufficiently motivated blind person cannot do. However, one important difference between training a person in mobility and training an animal is the use of language.  You can ask the person to describe what exactly she is doing.  You can't do this with a dog; though you can ask someone else, as has been suggested, to describe the actions of the dog.  Like Meghan, I don't mean to suggest that it can't be done, but the ability of the one being trained to use language does seem to be a fairly important difference between the cases of mobility instructor and dog trainer.
> 
> Marc
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
>> I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be. Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of creativity on my part.
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>> 
>> 
>> Original message:
>>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I don't
>>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>> 
>>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues that
>>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to figure
>>> out obstacle with a cane.
>> 
>>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification is
>>> needed.
>> 
>>> Meghan
>>> I'm
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> 
>>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It would
>>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a sighted
>>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying to
>>>> advocate.
>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be altering
>>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would think.
>>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>> 
>>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to give
>>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>> 
>>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>> 
>>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>> 
>>>>> Val
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>>> students.
>> 
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>> 
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized the
>>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>> 
>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Jedi
>> 
>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>> 
>>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind headquarters,
>>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave him
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>> 
>>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared. Going
>>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall of
>>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he will
>>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>> 
>>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>>> you.
>> 
>>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Val!
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>> 
>>>>>>>>> Justin
>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog trainer
>>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan on
>>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time i'll
>>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination we
>>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized services,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school and
>>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters. So
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school, simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>> --
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>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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> 
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Aug 17 04:34:01 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:34:01 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
Message-ID: <20100817043401.21093.6400@web3>

It seems to me that one way to get around that particular issue is to 
ask the owner some questions about how the dog visually looks/their 
overall temprament. Presumably, the owner would be involved in training 
the dog alongside the professional. Was it Peter who suggested that val 
contact some blind trainers? I wonder how they get around the language barrier?

Respectfully Submitted

Original message:
> I don't read Meghan as assuming sight is necessary so much as offering
> arguments for why certain aspects of training a dog can be visual.  I do
> completely agree that much of what we think requires sight only really
> requires some imagination, patience, and hard work.  There are very few
> things that I think a sufficiently motivated blind person cannot do.
> However, one important difference between training a person in mobility and
> training an animal is the use of language.  You can ask the person to
> describe what exactly she is doing.  You can't do this with a dog; though
> you can ask someone else, as has been suggested, to describe the actions of
> the dog.  Like Meghan, I don't mean to suggest that it can't be done, but
> the ability of the one being trained to use language does seem to be a
> fairly important difference between the cases of mobility instructor and dog
> trainer.

> Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>> I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be.
>> Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe
>> that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane
>> independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to
>> maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are
>> as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or
>> teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding
>> the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in
>> every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual
>> techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't
>> be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision
>> is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support
>> the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of
>> non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's
>> important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight
>> before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in
>> a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of
>> creativity on my part.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi


>> Original message:
>>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I
>>> don't
>>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.

>>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues
>>> that
>>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to
>>> figure
>>> out obstacle with a cane.

>>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification
>>> is
>>> needed.

>>> Meghan
>>> I'm
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It
>>>> would
>>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a
>>>> sighted
>>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying
>>>> to
>>>> advocate.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>>>> altering
>>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would
>>>>> think.
>>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.

>>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to
>>>>> give
>>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.

>>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

>>>>> Thank you for your feedback.

>>>>> Val
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

>>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>>> students.

>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi

>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Jedi

>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>> Greetings all,

>>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>> headquarters,
>>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared.
>>>>>>>> Going
>>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>>> you.

>>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Val!

>>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>>>>>>>> Justin

>>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog
>>>>>>>>>> trainer
>>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time
>>>>>>>>>> i'll
>>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>>>>>>>>>> services,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle

>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like
>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing


>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org

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From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 17 04:12:35 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:12:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com><F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus><2841182F-DC36-4C5E-8019-D14687A2AB8E@gmail.com><012301cb3db6$e32201b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<01B5F97EFBBD4AA18F6E3B80648CF6AE@YOURZVIRQM73LR>
Message-ID: <004401cb3dc2$bf6e55a0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Meghan and everyone,

    As was true last week please read my messages carefully. I knew of a 
blind person who successfully trained police and guide dogs and had 
nonvisual ways of reading aggressiveness in a dog. I'm not sure if this 
gentleman is still alive let alone training dogs. In addition to being blind 
he also had seizures.

    I also grew up in a home we shared with 14 Boxer dogs plus brood stock 
that lived in several kennels. I came to know each dog's disposition and 
temprament using various nonvisual techniques to judge what kind of day they 
were having, who was friendly, and who should be delt with caution. If I 
needed to deal with one of the more aggressive dogs I handled him/her 
myself.

    Clipper was a very quiet house dog who would let you pet him or do 
whatever else you wanted to do to him. I always knew when he was sleeping 
because he had a unique snore. Honeyboy on the other hand would let you know 
on no uncertain terms that his body belonged to him and that he was the 
boss! He lived in one of the kennels and was very lively. His behavior let 
me know both nonvisually as well as letting others know visually that he was 
a male dog to be handled with caution.

    Dutchis was one of our brood bitches who gave birth to four pups in 
1964. She along with several other dogs in the breeding stock would not 
allow just anyone to handle her puppies. Her growl was venomous if you bent 
over her to touch her pups. Eventually I discovered that by talking to her 
gently and patting her away from the litter she became easier for me to read 
and handle something any sighted dog trainer would do. By observing her 
breathing, her pulse, and how she behaved around me I knew she was gaining 
confidence in me. Soon I was able to approach her and the pups without her 
becoming protective. When her breating and pulse were normal I knew she was 
relaxed and could handle the pups safely.
    Hence it's possible to work with all types of dogs without vision. 
Perhaps others on the list can share their alternative techniques used when 
managing dogs and other animals to give Valerie the information she needs to 
encourage these organizations to allow her to prove herself.

    Peter Donahue who will soon be writing to you from the Acacia.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


Peter:

Some of what you say is true, however, a blind person cannot tell if the dog
is giving a whale eye.  There are some dogs who do not make a sound before
making an agressive move.  There are a series of visual indicators before a
dog begins barking and/or growling.

I am in no way saying blind people cannot train dogs.  I live with a fear
agressive dog, and we get on just fine since I can read him, but I'm sure
there have been situations I could have more quickly quelled if there had
been someone who could see who could have told me what the dog is doing.

The idea of having someone sighted there to provide visual feedback is far
from rubbish.  Dogs are very visual animals.  There are so many nuances of
their language we cannot pick up on, and there are so many that a
well-trained eye, or a blind person asking the right questions, can pick up
on.

This is actually something I too would love to do for a living.  I was going
to go through the same school and became discouraged when I read of the
restrictions.  Back then, I wasn't much of a fighter.

Regardless, telling someone to choose a different career because they are
seaking opinions and/or solutions is not exactly the support I am used to
finding within the NFB.

Take care,
Meghan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


> Hello Valerie and everyone,
>
>    If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider
> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or
> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this
> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors
> can
> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has
> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors.
> People
> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe
> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
>
>    I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with
> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle
> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers
> before
> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to
> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this
> helps.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing
> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
> Joe,
>
> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and
> i
> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to
> look
> for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations,
> for
> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing
> when
> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back.
> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the
> dog is doing.
>
> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not
> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test,
> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that
> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.
>
> So the way i se it, i have two options:
>
> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon
> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40
> to
> 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt.
> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits
> of
> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and
> 300
> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal
> shelters.
>
> or
>
> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many
> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can,
> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer
> at
> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to
> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was
> talking
> about.
>
> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
>
> Val
>
> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> Valerie,
>>
>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how
>> to
>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you
>> needed
>> a
>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious
>> all
>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With
>> something
>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>> assistance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>
>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>> having a reader read tests.
>>
>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>> the situation.
>>
>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>>
>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>
>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>
>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>> may benefit sighted students.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>> revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>
>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>> headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>> I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>>
>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>> shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>> the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>> think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>>
>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>> fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>> program for you.
>>>
>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Val!
>>>
>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>>
>>>>>> Justin
>>>
>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>>
>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>> test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>> do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>>
>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>> training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>> to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>>
>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>> blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>> services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>> that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>> school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>> where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>> school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theblues
>> isloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pre
>> sident%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> 0gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> djedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.
>> Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 17 04:18:15 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:18:15 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>
	<630FE7F8D7F3493FB1A69C501C426D7E@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <001301cb3dc3$37b13af0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Mark and everyone,

    You can also use environmental queues to gather much of the same 
information.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Workman" <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


I don't read Meghan as assuming sight is necessary so much as offering
arguments for why certain aspects of training a dog can be visual.  I do
completely agree that much of what we think requires sight only really
requires some imagination, patience, and hard work.  There are very few
things that I think a sufficiently motivated blind person cannot do.
However, one important difference between training a person in mobility and
training an animal is the use of language.  You can ask the person to
describe what exactly she is doing.  You can't do this with a dog; though
you can ask someone else, as has been suggested, to describe the actions of
the dog.  Like Meghan, I don't mean to suggest that it can't be done, but
the ability of the one being trained to use language does seem to be a
fairly important difference between the cases of mobility instructor and dog
trainer.

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be.
>Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe
>that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane
>independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to
>maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are
>as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or
>teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding
>the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in
>every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual
>techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't
>be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision
>is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support
>the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of
>non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's
>important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight
>before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in
>a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of
>creativity on my part.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I
>> don't
>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.
>
>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues
>> that
>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to
>> figure
>> out obstacle with a cane.
>
>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification
>> is
>> needed.
>
>> Meghan
>> I'm
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>
>
>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It
>>> would
>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a
>>> sighted
>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying
>>> to
>>> advocate.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>>> altering
>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would
>>>> think.
>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.
>
>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to
>>>> give
>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.
>
>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>
>>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>
>>>> Val
>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>
>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>> students.
>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Greetings all,
>
>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>> headquarters,
>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave
>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>
>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared.
>>>>>>> Going
>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>
>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>> you.
>
>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Val!
>
>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>
>>>>>>>> Justin
>
>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>
>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>
>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog
>>>>>>>>> trainer
>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>
>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>
>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>
>
>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time
>>>>>>>>> i'll
>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>>>>>>>>> services,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like
>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.
>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school,
>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health
>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>
>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>
>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>
>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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From brittney.urquhart at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 04:41:44 2010
From: brittney.urquhart at gmail.com (Brittney Urquhart)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:41:44 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Universal Design
In-Reply-To: <156E425800F14416BF92F837A7F6B6AA@Rufus>
References: <20100814220412.23909.41575@web1>	<16453DF861544BDA970B78DCF7BC5393@MarcPC>
	<156E425800F14416BF92F837A7F6B6AA@Rufus>
Message-ID: <4C6A1308.9060703@gmail.com>

Hello Joe and List,

The notion of universal design is not specifically targeted for persons 
with disabilities, but at society as a whole. The purpose of universal 
design is to make as many products, services, and environments 
accessible to as many people as possible.

For example, if the notion of universal design is used in the 
construction of a building, a ramp would be implemented not only for 
wheelchair users, but also for the little old lady that just had a hip 
replacement. All bathroom stalls would be the size of accessible ones, 
not just for the person using a walker, but for the mother with three 
kids and a stroller who doesn’t want to leave her kids unattended while 
one has to use the restroom.

The Apple iPhone and iPod Touch are the most perfect examples of the 
notion of universal design. Just by Apple including Voiceover, screen 
magnification, and other accessibility features on these devices they 
have created a product that is accessible to people with and with out 
disabilities. Due to the universal design of this product, my sighted 
mother and I were able to walk in the same AT&T store and purchase the 
same phone without me having to buy additional products to be able to 
use it. If more devices were created with the notion of universal design 
anyone, disabled or not, could walk in a store and buy a product and be 
able to use it.

Brittney




Joe Orozco wrote:
> Hi Marc,
>
> You pose an interesting notion.  I don't know where I sit on aspects of
> universal design like audible traffic signals.  I myself have not found them
> exceptionally useful, but nor did I find the NFB's active protest in
> Portland eight or nine years ago all that necessary either.  I am of the
> opinion that people have a choice to use or not use available resources.
>
> My fear with this is not so much the scope to all persons as much as the
> availability.  I believe the NFB follows a methodology to help persons to
> adopt to their environment no matter where they might find themselves,
> whether they should venture into a different city or a different country.
> Universal design seems like a daunting endeavor that would require a change
> in the way we think fundamentally, not just the way we perceive individual
> tasks.  I don't know that I disagree with the notion of universal design
> exactly.  I just question the feasibility, and again I am concerned with the
> immediacy of training all blind individuals regardless of skill level to
> confront and successfully maneuver their environment.
>
> This reminds me of an article a group of us debated once about an apartment
> complex designed specifically for persons with disabilities complete with
> textured walls, hand rails and all manner of amenities.  To some this home
> appeared to be the ideal setting, but as you may have guessed, I was
> vehemently opposed to it for the false sense of confidence it established
> and the bubble-like environment it promoted.  I may be missing this concept
> of universal design altogether, but I genuinely believe it would be
> difficult to make people with disabilities catch up to the rest of society
> by creating certain standardized norms.  There is too much of a gap, and in
> the meantime more people fall through the cracks.
>
> Still, the notion is an interesting one, and I'll admit to feeling curious
> about its consequences.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marc Workman
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:34 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
> run-in with tree
>
> Jedi,
>
> I prefaced my comment by saying that it was not directed at 
> you.  I wasn't 
> objecting to what you said so much as the idea contained in the 
> couple of 
> sentences I quoted from you, and idea that was contained within 
> the comments 
> of many others.
>
> Regarding what you say about universal design, that the NFB is "about 
> creating a universal design that honors the capacities of blind 
> people while 
> meeting our accessibility needs rather than creating a design 
> that assumes 
> that we have more needs than we really do", this strikes me as 
> a problematic 
> way of understanding universal design.  The question I would ask is: 
> capacities and needs of which blind people?
>
> The problem is that blind people, like all people, have a 
> tremendous amount 
> of variation in the capacities they possess.  A blind person that is 
> otherwise able-bodied, who has been blind for a long period of 
> time, who has 
> received a lot of training, who is intelligent, confident, and so on is 
> going to have a different set of capacities than the person who 
> is newly 
> blind, has had little training, has mobility difficulties, and 
> is hard of 
> hearing on top of it, and considering how many lose their 
> vision in old age, 
> don't think this picture is that out of the ordinary.
>
> So, who do we look at when we are fighting for universal design 
> that honours 
> the capacities of blind people without exaggerating their 
> needs? Do we look 
> at the capacities of the members of this list, or do we look at the 
> capacities of blind seniors?
>
> The problem I see with your understanding of universal design 
> is that it 
> isn't really universal.  For it to be universal, you can't limit its 
> application to a group of people that possess a certain set of 
> capacities 
> and needs.
>
> Responding to Joe who asked for more specifics on universal design, I 
> understand it as a guiding principle, and ideal towards which 
> we struggle 
> without actually attaining it, something like equality, 
> freedom, or justice. 
> Basically, as I stated, you design institutions, products, processes, 
> services and so on so that they are as accessible as possible to the 
> greatest number of people with the greatest variation in 
> abilities.  One 
> slightly more concrete way of thinking about this is that it involves 
> providing access to information in multiple ways.  So at a controlled 
> intersection, the changing of the light is information that is only 
> presented visually.  Universal design would promote the inclusion of an 
> audible and even a tactile signal that conveys the visual 
> information in 
> alternative ways.  We obviously will never make everything completely 
> accessible to everyone, but that is what makes it an ideal.  
> It's something 
> towards which we ought to strive.
>
> When things are universally designed, they include features 
> that many many 
> people will not actually make use of.  A large number of blind 
> people may 
> not need an audible signal, but some of course will, at the 
> very least, find 
> one very useful.  And the concern seems to be that people will 
> assume that 
> because some blind people have difficulty getting around 
> without adapting 
> the environment somewhat, then all blind people must need these 
> adaptations, 
> and then this leads to negative attitudes, discrimination, 
> unemployment and 
> so on.  For my objections to this line of argument, see my last post.
>
> In closing, I want to leave you with a quote from Jacobus 
> tenBroek, a fellow 
> Albertan I might add.  It suggests to me that tenBroek would 
> support the 
> fight against unnecessary obsticles that prevent us from 
> travelling in the 
> manner in which we choose, including the issue that sparked 
> this debate.  I 
> also think it's a nod towards universal design, the kind that's 
> actually 
> universal.
>
> tenBroek writes: "No courts have held or even darkly hinted 
> that a blind man 
> may rise in the morning, help get the children off to school, 
> bid his wife 
> goodbye,and proceed along the streets and bus lines to his daily work, 
> without dog, cane, or guide, if such is his habit or 
> preference, now and 
> then brushing a tree or kicking a curb,but, notwithstanding, 
> proceeding with 
> firm step and sure air, knowing that he is part of the public 
> for whom the 
> streets are built and maintained in reasonable safety, by the 
> help of his 
> taxes, and that he shares with others this part of the world in 
> which he, 
> too,has a right to live" (1966, 867-68).
>
> tenBroek, Jacobus. 1966. The right to live in the world: The 
> disabled in the 
> law of torts.California Law Review 54: 841-919.
>
> Best,
>
> Marc
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
> run-in with tree
>
>
>   
>> Marc,
>>
>> I feel that my comments were taken out of context somewhat. I 
>>     
> was trying 
>   
>> to give both sides of the issue a fair hearing. It's true 
>>     
> that bringing 
>   
>> attention to the incident in the way it's being done might in fact 
>> solidify negative perceptions of blindness; anyone who has 
>>     
> been blind a 
>   
>> while shouldn't miss that possibility unless they've been 
>>     
> hiding under a 
>   
>> rock a while. Whether we like it or not, the public tends to view us 
>> through their own speculations of what their lives might be 
>>     
> like if they 
>   
>> were blinded immediately without realizing that they have 
>>     
> considerable 
>   
>> gaps in knowledge regarding blindness. What I also said is 
>>     
> that the tree 
>   
>> could have served as a legitimate obstacle for this 
>>     
> particular blind man. 
>   
>> Though I didn't say it directly, what I meant is that perhaps 
>>     
> he does have 
>   
>> a cause to seek remedy even if a lawsuit may not be the best 
>>     
> way to handle 
>   
>> things. In my opinion, this incident is much like the woman 
>>     
> who spilled 
>   
>> hot coffee in her lap and sued McDonnald's.
>>
>> Maybe I'm wrong, but what I hear you saying is that NFB 
>>     
> philosophy (or at 
>   
>> least your understanding of it) seems to be out of sync with 
>>     
> universal 
>   
>> design principles for the reason of not wanting blind people to look 
>> incompetent. I don't think this is the case. I think the NFB 
>>     
> does support 
>   
>> (and fights for) universal design, but we're also about creating a 
>> universal design that honors the capacities of blind people 
>>     
> while meeting 
>   
>> our accessibility needs rather than creating a design that 
>>     
> assumes that we 
>   
>> have more needs than we really do. Does that make sense?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
>> Original message:
>>     
>>> I'm not very surprised, but nevertheless still disturbed, by 
>>>       
> a majority 
>   
>>> of
>>> the responses to this article.  Based on one reporters 
>>>       
> account of this
>   
>>> story, we have rediculous proposals insisting that blind 
>>>       
> people ought to
>   
>>> walk around holding one arm in the air, we have unjustified 
>>>       
> claims about 
>   
>>> how
>>> fast the person must have been walking, we have unfounded 
>>>       
> assumptions 
>   
>>> about
>>> what this person may have tried to do before escalating to a 
>>>       
> law suit, 
>   
>>> and
>>> we have highly speculative claims about how this one 
>>>       
> incident is going to
>   
>>> set every confident, independent blind person back 20 years.
>>>       
>>> Jedi wrote the following, and this is not directed at Jedi; 
>>>       
> she only said
>   
>>> first, and with brevity and clarity, what many others said 
>>>       
> afterwards.
>   
>>> However, suing could set a bad precedent as it > would 
>>>       
> reaify the notion
>   
>>> that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to > blind people 
>>>       
> because we are
>   
>>> blind; the public may take this incident > and generalize it to all
>>> obstacles whether they're really an > inconvenience to 
>>>       
> one/all of us or 
>   
>>> not.
>>>       
>>> I would raise three objections to this line of thinking.  
>>>       
> None of them 
>   
>>> are
>>> devastating, but, taken together, I think there is good 
>>>       
> reason to not be
>   
>>> completely convinced that people who fight these sorts of 
>>>       
> battles are 
>   
>>> doing
>>> us all harm.
>>>       
>>> 1. We shouldn't be so quick to think that we can predict how any one
>>> individual, let alone the so called public, is going to 
>>>       
> react to these 
>   
>>> sorts
>>> of stories.  Someone reading the story might respond more to 
>>>       
> the fact 
>   
>>> that
>>> the person was travelling in the community independently, 
>>>       
> she might focus 
>   
>>> on
>>> the person's willingness to stand up for what he believes, she might 
>>> begin
>>> to think about her own front yard tree with its low hanging 
>>>       
> branches, or
>   
>>> most likely in my opinion, she won't think twice about it, 
>>>       
> assuming she
>   
>>> reads it at all.  The point is that there is a lot of speculation 
>>> involved
>>> here, and we should be cautious in the face of so much speculation.
>>>       
>>> 2. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there is this 
>>>       
> thing called 
>   
>>> the
>>> public, and the public generalizes from the experience of 
>>>       
> one person and
>   
>>> applies it to all of us blind people.  The public believes 
>>>       
> that we all 
>   
>>> need
>>> help getting around all these obsticles, and eventually this leads to
>>> discrimination and unemployment.  Should we base our 
>>>       
> positions on what we
>   
>>> judge to be right, or should we base them on how the public 
>>>       
> will react to
>   
>>> them? Probably the response will be to say that we should base our 
>>> positions
>>> on both what we think is right and how the public will 
>>>       
> react.  Fine, I'm 
>   
>>> not
>>> saying we should ignore public reaction, but in the face of so much
>>> speculation, see objection 1, where public reaction is highly 
>>> unpredictable,
>>> it should play only a very minor role in deciding what sort 
>>>       
> of activities 
>   
>>> we
>>> should engage in.
>>>       
>>> 3. Even if the public does develop negative misconceptions 
>>>       
> based on these
>   
>>> sorts of stories, this doesn't mean that people can't be 
>>>       
> educated.  Why
>   
>>> couldn't it be the case that by fighting to remove these 
>>>       
> barriers, we 
>   
>>> suffer
>>> a short-term increase in negative conceptions for a decrease of such
>>> conceptions in the long term? Get blind people out in the 
>>>       
> community, and
>   
>>> that's how you will change attitudes.  The more people that 
>>>       
> feel they can
>   
>>> comfortably and independently travel throughout the 
>>>       
> community, without
>   
>>> having first spent 8 months intensively studying the latest
>>> hand-in-front-of-face technique for detecting over-hanging 
>>>       
> obsticles, the
>   
>>> more people you will have out in the community, the more 
>>>       
> relationships 
>   
>>> will
>>> be developed, and the more likely you are to change attitudes.
>>>       
>>> Many of the comments thus far in this thread illustrate two 
>>>       
> of the most
>   
>>> fundamental ways in which I think NFB policies are 
>>>       
> misguided.  First, the
>   
>>> failure to promote universal design.  Universal design means creating
>>> institutions, products, processes, services, and so on that are as
>>> accessible as possible to the widest number of people, 
>>>       
> without the user
>   
>>> having to possess special equipment or training.  If 
>>>       
> environment A is 
>   
>>> only
>>> navigable by some blind person who has been blind for ten 
>>>       
> years, who has 
>   
>>> had
>>> training at an NFB Center, and who has no other disabling physical
>>> variations, and environment B is navigable by someone 
>>>       
> recently blind, 
>   
>>> with
>>> little training, and with a bad hip, then we should adopt 
>>>       
> stances towards
>   
>>> design that bring us closer to environment B.  It might be 
>>>       
> true that, at
>   
>>> first, taking these positions causes that foolish public to 
>>>       
> believe that
>   
>>> blindness equals incompetence, but this leads me to my 
>>>       
> second concern 
>   
>>> with
>>> NFB policy: there is far too much concern with the variety 
>>>       
> of ways that 
>   
>>> the
>>> public might think less of us.  Of course public perceptions 
>>>       
> matter, but
>   
>>> they are highly unpredictable, changeable over time, and 
>>>       
> should not make 
>   
>>> us
>>> afraid to fight for what is right.
>>>       
>>> I've been preaching this sort of attitude for a while now, 
>>>       
> and I don't
>   
>>> really expect to change anyone's mind, but there is another 
>>>       
> perspective 
>   
>>> to
>>> this story that hasn't been aired fully.
>>>       
>>> Best,
>>>       
>>> Marc
>>>       
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 7:30 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over 
>>>       
> run-in with 
>   
>>> tree
>>>       
>>     
>>>> The tree could be an annoying obstacle for anyone, particularly tall
>>>> people. And yes, it is true that tall blind people who 
>>>>         
> don't use guide
>   
>>>> dogs or some sort of hand guide device/echolocation are 
>>>>         
> going to miss
>   
>>>> those overhead branches. However, suing could set a bad 
>>>>         
> precedent as it
>   
>>>> would reaify the notion that obstacles of any kind are hazardous to 
>>>> blind
>>>> people because we are blind; the public may take this incident and
>>>> generalize it to all obstacles whether they're really an 
>>>>         
> inconvenience 
>   
>>>> to
>>>> one/all of us or not.
>>>>         
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>         
>>>> Original message:
>>>>         
>>>>> I thought this story was interesting. What do you think? Is the
>>>>> lawsuit appropriate?
>>>>>           
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> Blind man sues Wienerschnitzel over run-in with tree
>>>>>           
> http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/50092926-78/tree-reynolds-wien
> erschnitzel-suit.html.csp
>   
>>>>> By bob mims
>>>>>           
>>>>> The Salt Lake Tribune
>>>>>           
>>>>> Updated Aug 12, 2010 10:59PM
>>>>> All Nathan Reynolds wanted was a hot dog. Instead, as the blind man
>>>>> walked toward a Wienerschnitzel restaurant last year, he got a face
>>>>> full of tree - and severe neck injuries.
>>>>>           
>>>>> Now, the 36-year-old Utah County man has filed a personal injury
>>>>> lawsuit against the owners of the Wienerschnitzel at the corner of
>>>>> North Temple and 800 West in Salt Lake City.
>>>>>           
>>>>> The complaint contends that on June 9, 2009, Reynolds - 
>>>>>           
> who had been
>   
>>>>> on his way to the Utah School for the Deaf and the Blind - 
>>>>>           
> got off a
>   
>>>>> bus near the Wienerschnitzel to get a meal. As the 6-foot-5 man
>>>>> navigated toward the entrance with his cane swinging in 
>>>>>           
> front of him,
>   
>>>>> he hit the tree, which the suit contends had encroached on the
>>>>> sidewalk.
>>>>>           
>>>>> "The tree struck him squarely in the face and knocked him to the
>>>>> ground," states the suit, filed Tuesday. "The tree was 
>>>>>           
> allowed to grow
>   
>>>>> in such a way that it was impossible for Mr. Reynolds to detect its
>>>>> presence by use of his cane."
>>>>>           
>>>>> The suit argues that because the tree was "rooted in the 
>>>>>           
> ground far to
>   
>>>>> one side of the sidewalk and [had grown] diagonally across the
>>>>> sidewalk," it had become a "clear hazard."
>>>>>           
>>>>> Reynolds seeks unspecified reimbursement for past and 
>>>>>           
> future medical
>   
>>>>> expenses, lost income, and pain and suffering stemming from alleged
>>>>> negligence in the maintenance of the tree.
>>>>>           
>>>>> Along with Grundmann Enterprises of South Jordan, the owner of the
>>>>> eatery, Reynolds' 3rd District Court suit names Salt Lake 
>>>>>           
> City Corp.
>   
>>>>> and five John Does as defendants. Reynolds seeks a jury trial; 3rd
>>>>> District Judge Sandra Peuler has been assigned the case.
>>>>>           
>>>>> Daniel J. Grundmann of Grundmann Enterprises declined to comment
>>>>> Wednesday, noting he had not yet been served with the suit.
>>>>>           
>>>>> Tom Amberger, vice president of marketing for Irvine, Calif.-based
>>>>> Galaradi Group Inc., which runs Wienerschnitzel, also declined to
>>>>> discuss the case. "We are unaware of this lawsuit and will 
>>>>>           
> look into
>   
>>>>> it," he said.
>>>>>           
>>>>> Ed Rutan, city attorney for Salt Lake City, would not 
>>>>>           
> comment, either,
>   
>>>>> citing the pending nature of the litigation.
>>>>>           
>>     
>>>>> __._,_.___
>>>>>           
>>     
>>>>> --
>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>> Email:
>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>> Website:
>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>           
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
>>>>>           
> account info for
>   
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>           
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> djedi%40samobile.net
>   
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
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>>>> nabs-l:
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>   
>>
>>     
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>> -- 
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From jj at bestmidi.com  Tue Aug 17 04:52:28 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:52:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776><37209BBB67C942459996974F70D89991@hometwxakonvzn>
	<BAY130-DS3BFFE2DBDFC7F60A68EA68B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <588503D25DED41B59544551F7A1F97E4@jage>

Also, it depends on where you live, but a mile really isn't a bad of a walk 
as it may seem. Most people can do it in 15-20 minutes or so.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue


> yes we do it's just that the place that I'd be going is a mile away from 
> where the bus is or more.  Parrit transit could get me within a mile of 
> where it is which I could then use a cab but I would like to avodid to if 
> possible.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
> 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 05:02:24 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:02:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <588503D25DED41B59544551F7A1F97E4@jage>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl><8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776><BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl><ECDC773EEE9C4E3E9B7CC83A85C533BC@kerrie025e8776><37209BBB67C942459996974F70D89991@hometwxakonvzn><BAY130-DS3BFFE2DBDFC7F60A68EA68B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<588503D25DED41B59544551F7A1F97E4@jage>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS17A9936548891341700E9F8B9C0@phx.gbl>

There is a bridge with no sidewalks and no sholder there which is what the 
problem is.  But as I said I found another place which avoids the problem 
entirely but this was a nice discussion to find out what everyone does.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "J.J. Meddaugh" <jj at bestmidi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:52 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue

> Also, it depends on where you live, but a mile really isn't a bad of a 
> walk as it may seem. Most people can do it in 15-20 minutes or so.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] transportation issue
>
>
>> yes we do it's just that the place that I'd be going is a mile away from 
>> where the bus is or more.  Parrit transit could get me within a mile of 
>> where it is which I could then use a cab but I would like to avodid to if 
>> possible.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From freespirit328 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 05:14:55 2010
From: freespirit328 at gmail.com (Jennifer Aberdeen)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:14:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
References: <20100817031923.24122.71652@web2>
Message-ID: <E56AF9C8897144A2B9C272F5EF7C681D@Gateway>

Hi all,

In my experience with my own dog, who is a pet not a guide dog, sight is not 
needed to be able to tell what kind of mood he is in. My dog is an American 
Eskimo; these dogs are friendly, however they have their moments of 
aggressive behavior. I can always sense when he's in a mood where he may 
bite if I touch him. Also I can tell what kind of mood he's in by the sound 
of his bark or growl. I also know when he's in a calm state of mind just by 
sense.

I realize that I'm talking about a dog I'm familiar with, but even with an 
unfamiliar dog, it's quite easy to determine their state of mind. It may 
take a few minutes to get a feel for the dog, but it can be done in a 
relatively short amount of time.

Jen


___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products!
www.youravon.com/jaberdeen

Get paid to read email!
http://www.sendearnings.com/?r=ref1487633 



From valandkayla at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 06:33:57 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:33:57 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <004401cb3dc2$bf6e55a0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1><1A8A315D-2219-4EF0-8B49-A5D8D8C1106F@gmail.com><F3C85B3E487844D585EC7F9CB84F1974@Rufus><2841182F-DC36-4C5E-8019-D14687A2AB8E@gmail.com><012301cb3db6$e32201b0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<01B5F97EFBBD4AA18F6E3B80648CF6AE@YOURZVIRQM73LR>
	<004401cb3dc2$bf6e55a0$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <1E622EB5-C49B-4833-8012-BB101DF4C56B@gmail.com>

Peter,

Thank you so much for sharing.  As i have said, my idea of having a  sighted person to tell mewhat'sgoing on
 visually may not have been the best idea, and i was not trying to come across as to say that blindpeople could not train.

It is good to hear of ways people communicate with their pets, as that willbe a great help.  

Most of my own pets, i've raised from pupyhood, and evenbreeds that are known for agression never had a problem.

thank you for your story.

ValOn Aug 16, 2010, at 11:12 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:

> Hello Meghan and everyone,
> 
>    As was true last week please read my messages carefully. I knew of a 
> blind person who successfully trained police and guide dogs and had 
> nonvisual ways of reading aggressiveness in a dog. I'm not sure if this 
> gentleman is still alive let alone training dogs. In addition to being blind 
> he also had seizures.
> 
>    I also grew up in a home we shared with 14 Boxer dogs plus brood stock 
> that lived in several kennels. I came to know each dog's disposition and 
> temprament using various nonvisual techniques to judge what kind of day they 
> were having, who was friendly, and who should be delt with caution. If I 
> needed to deal with one of the more aggressive dogs I handled him/her 
> myself.
> 
>    Clipper was a very quiet house dog who would let you pet him or do 
> whatever else you wanted to do to him. I always knew when he was sleeping 
> because he had a unique snore. Honeyboy on the other hand would let you know 
> on no uncertain terms that his body belonged to him and that he was the 
> boss! He lived in one of the kennels and was very lively. His behavior let 
> me know both nonvisually as well as letting others know visually that he was 
> a male dog to be handled with caution.
> 
>    Dutchis was one of our brood bitches who gave birth to four pups in 
> 1964. She along with several other dogs in the breeding stock would not 
> allow just anyone to handle her puppies. Her growl was venomous if you bent 
> over her to touch her pups. Eventually I discovered that by talking to her 
> gently and patting her away from the litter she became easier for me to read 
> and handle something any sighted dog trainer would do. By observing her 
> breathing, her pulse, and how she behaved around me I knew she was gaining 
> confidence in me. Soon I was able to approach her and the pups without her 
> becoming protective. When her breating and pulse were normal I knew she was 
> relaxed and could handle the pups safely.
>    Hence it's possible to work with all types of dogs without vision. 
> Perhaps others on the list can share their alternative techniques used when 
> managing dogs and other animals to give Valerie the information she needs to 
> encourage these organizations to allow her to prove herself.
> 
>    Peter Donahue who will soon be writing to you from the Acacia.
> 
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Meghan Whalen" <mewhalen at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
> Peter:
> 
> Some of what you say is true, however, a blind person cannot tell if the dog
> is giving a whale eye.  There are some dogs who do not make a sound before
> making an agressive move.  There are a series of visual indicators before a
> dog begins barking and/or growling.
> 
> I am in no way saying blind people cannot train dogs.  I live with a fear
> agressive dog, and we get on just fine since I can read him, but I'm sure
> there have been situations I could have more quickly quelled if there had
> been someone who could see who could have told me what the dog is doing.
> 
> The idea of having someone sighted there to provide visual feedback is far
> from rubbish.  Dogs are very visual animals.  There are so many nuances of
> their language we cannot pick up on, and there are so many that a
> well-trained eye, or a blind person asking the right questions, can pick up
> on.
> 
> This is actually something I too would love to do for a living.  I was going
> to go through the same school and became discouraged when I read of the
> restrictions.  Back then, I wasn't much of a fighter.
> 
> Regardless, telling someone to choose a different career because they are
> seaking opinions and/or solutions is not exactly the support I am used to
> finding within the NFB.
> 
> Take care,
> Meghan
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
> 
> 
>> Hello Valerie and everyone,
>> 
>>   If you're going to go down that track perhaps you need to reconsider
>> your career of choice. One need not have vision to determine when a dog or
>> other animal is behaving aggressively. One's ears work well for this
>> purpose. Barking, growling, heavy breathing, lunging and other behaviors
>> can
>> be heard as well as seen. This believe it or not is one reason why it has
>> been difficult for blind individuals to become guide dog instructors.
>> People
>> who operate guide dog schools and other animal training facilities believe
>> that one can only read a dog visually. This is absolute rubbish!
>> 
>>   I once knew of a blind man that trained guard dogs and did it with
>> success and little worries by his employer over his ability to handle
>> aggressive dogs. I would seek out some successful blind dog trainers
>> before
>> persuing the enrollment process to equip yourself with the ammunission to
>> deal with such questions and concerns raised by these outfits. Hope this
>> helps.
>> 
>> Peter Donahue
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Valerie Gibson" <valandkayla at gmail.com>
>> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing
>> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>> 
>> 
>> Joe,
>> 
>> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, and
>> i
>> could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on what to
>> look
>> for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in agressive situations,
>> for
>> the most part, not being able to see would hender me ffrom not knowing
>> when
>> to react. Hence bringing along someone who could give me visual feed back.
>> They wouldn't be telling me what to do; they would be telling me what the
>> dog is doing.
>> 
>> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and not
>> dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training certification test,
>> and become nationally certified that way. However my thought was that
>> working with the schedule would make  learning to train dogs a bit easier.
>> 
>> So the way i se it, i have two options:
>> 
>> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job apon
>> graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course of 40
>> to
>> 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate under my belt.
>> Then after the school, take a national certification test, which consits
>> of
>> 250 multiple choice questions relating to every part of dog training and
>> 300
>> hours of dog traing with 25 percent of that being working at local animal
>> shelters.
>> 
>> or
>> 
>> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as many
>> dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as i can,
>> apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, volonteer
>> at
>> a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes to learn how to
>> market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice question test i was
>> talking
>> about.
>> 
>> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts
>> 
>> Val
>> 
>> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>> 
>>> Valerie,
>>> 
>>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
>>> might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
>>> likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how
>>> to
>>> deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you
>>> needed
>>> a
>>> sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious
>>> all
>>> over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
>>> readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
>>> readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With
>>> something
>>> as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
>>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
>>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
>>> assistance.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> 
>>> Joe
>>> 
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
>>> 
>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany
>>> me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't
>>> alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than
>>> having a reader read tests.
>>> 
>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog,
>>> i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with
>>> me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess
>>> the situation.
>>> 
>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your feedback.
>>> 
>>> Val
>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a
>>> blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and
>>> may benefit sighted students.
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>> but having that alternative training available has
>>> revoluationized the
>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
>>>> 
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>> 
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Greetings all,
>>>> 
>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>> headquarters,
>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>>> I gave him a
>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
>>>> 
>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>>> shared. Going
>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>>> the fall of
>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>>> think, he will
>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
>>>> 
>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>>> fundalmental training
>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>>> program for you.
>>>> 
>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Val!
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
>>>> 
>>>>>>> Justin
>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>>> test that will
>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>>> do plan on
>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>>> training school, the
>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>>> to happen since
>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>>> blind people,
>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>> services, but
>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>>> that people
>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this
>>> school expect
>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>>> where their dog
>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>>> school and
>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>> Beth
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>>> all."--Sam Ewing
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theblues
>>> isloose%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pre
>>> sident%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%4
>>> 0gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandka
>>> yla%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>> 
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblin
>>> djedi%40samobile.net
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.
>>> Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
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>>> yla%40gmail.com
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
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>>> 
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
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>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mewhalen%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 
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From dandrews at visi.com  Tue Aug 17 09:23:44 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:23:44 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Thru Our Eyes Internet Radio August 18th with Mary Jo
 Hartle
Message-ID: <auto-000164637381@mailfront2.g2host.com>


>
>Save The Date:
>On Wednesday, August 18 at 8:00 PM EDT, host of Thru Our Eyes, Joe 
>Ruffalo, member of the national board of the NFB and state affiliate 
>president in New Jersey,
>interviews Mary Jo Hartle, director of education at the Jernigan 
>Institute, Baltimore, Maryland.
>The purposes, goals and objectives of the educational programs 
>conducted at the Jernigan Institute will be discussed.
>The recent Junior Science Academy will be highlighted.
>Participants in the Junior Science Academy and their parents are 
>welcomed to call in with their comments.
>How to access Thru Our Eyes
>logging into
><http://www.thruoureyes.org/>www.thruoureyes.org
>or for JAWS,
><http://www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html>www.thruoureyes.org/jaws.html
>If you wish to call in with a question and or comment, please phone
>1 888 572 0141
>Please save the date and join us for an educational, inspirational 
>and motivational interview.
>Remember: When we all do, it becomes doable!
>Best,
>Joe Ruffalo, host
>Thru Our Eyes
>The more we try, the more we succeed.
>Everything is impossible until you do it.
>  Keep believing.  Keep dreaming.  Keep learning
>Let's work together.  Let's make a difference!
>Joseph J. Ruffalo
>President, National Federation of the Blind of New Jersey
>Phone:  973-743-0075
>Please visit our State and National Web Sites
><http://www.nfbnj.org/>http://www.nfbnj.org
>http://www.thruoureyes.org
><http://www.blindchildren.org/>http://www.blindchildren.org
>http://www.nfb.org
>Email:
><mailto:nfbnj at yahoo.com>nfbnj at yahoo.com
>
>
>Vinny
>Vincent Chaney Jr
>NFB Diabetes Action Network (DAN) Board of Directors
>NFBNJ Diabetes Division President
>NJAGDU (NFBNJ Association of Guide Dog Users) Division President
>NFBNJ Technology Division Vice President
>NFBNJ Resolutions Committee Member
>NFBNJ.ORG Webmaster
>Mail: <mailto:vgc732 at optonline.net>vgc732 at optonline.net
>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920

From skane at uw.edu  Tue Aug 17 09:37:36 2010
From: skane at uw.edu (Shaun Kane)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:37:36 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Survey on Accessibility Barriers
Message-ID: <auto-000164637840@mailfront2.g2host.com>

I have been asked to circulate the following:

David Andrews



 >> ----
 >>
 >> student survey: help with university of washington accessibility research
 >>
 >> Hello,
 >>
 >> My name is Shaun Kane, and I'm a doctoral student at the University of
 >> Washington in Seattle, WA. Our research group, the AIM Research Group
 >> (http://depts.washington.edu/aimgroup) is working to develop new tools
 >> to improve the accessibility of computers and other technologies for
 >> blind and visually impaired people.
 >>
 >> We are currently conducting research to remove accessibility barriers
 >> in schools, especially for group classroom activities. To help with
 >> this research, we are currently conducting a survey to understand
 >> current accessibility problems in classrooms for blind and visually
 >> impaired people.
 >>
 >> This survey is for current college students or people who attended
 >> college courses within the last 5 years, who are blind or visually
 >> impaired. You must be 18 or over to complete this survey.
 >>
 >> The survey is available over the web at http://bit.ly/classroomsurvey
 >> . The survey should take approximately 10 to 15 minutes to complete,
 >> and is anonymous.
 >>
 >> Whether or not you complete this survey, we would appreciate it if you
 >> could pass this announcement on to anyone who might wish to complete
 >> it. This research will help us to develop new tools and technologies
 >> to improve accessibility in school and classroom settings.
 >>
 >> If you experience any problems with the survey, or if you have any
 >> questions about the research in general, please contact me, Shaun
 >> Kane, by email at skane at uw.edu or by phone at 206-923-8306.
 >>
 >> Thank you for your time.
 >>
 >> Sincerely,
 >>
 >> Shaun Kane
 >> PhD Candidate
 >> The Information School
 >> University of Washington
 >> skane at uw.edu
 >> http://students.washington.edu/skane
 >> Phone: 206-923-8306
 >>



From JFreeh at nfb.org  Tue Aug 17 09:40:16 2010
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:40:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Driver Challenge Receives Top Graphical System
 Design Achievement Awards at NIWeek 2010
Message-ID: <auto-000167317332@mailfront1.g2host.com>


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org



Blind Driver Challenge Receives Top Graphical System
Design Achievement Awards at NIWeek 2010



Baltimore, Maryland (August 16, 2010): The 
National Federation of the Blind’s Blind Driver 
Challenge­an innovative effort to create a 
nonvisual interface that empowers a blind person 
to operate an automobile­received the 2010 
Application of the Year Award at the National 
Instruments Graphical System Design Achievement 
Awards ceremony held during the NIWeek annual 
conference in Austin, Texas.  In response to a 
challenge issued by the National Federation of 
the Blind (NFB), students and researchers at 
Virginia Tech­using National Instruments (NI) 
technology­developed a semi-autonomous vehicle 
that allows a blind driver to successfully 
navigate, control speed, and avoid collision 
while traversing a closed driving 
course.  NIWeek, hosted by National Instruments, 
is the world’s leading graphical system design 
conference and exhibition, showcasing the latest 
developments in graphical system design, virtual 
instrumentation, and commercial 
technologies.  The Virginia Tech/TORC Blind 
Driver Challenge team project also received the 
Graphical System Design Achievement Award in the Robotics category.



Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National 
Federation of the Blind, said: “The Blind Driver 
Challenge is a National Federation of the Blind 
initiative to cause the creation of a nonvisual 
driving interface for the blind.  We can build a 
car that the blind can drive independently and 
safely.  All we need is an interface that can 
capture information from the environment and 
provide it to the blind driver in nonvisual 
ways.  The innovations produced in the process of 
creating this blind-drivable vehicle will help 
the blind gain access to a great deal of 
information that has traditionally been presented 
only visually.  These innovations will also help 
the sighted find ways to learn more than they now 
know and operate machines with increased efficiency and safety.”



The paper describing the project was submitted by 
Dr. Dennis Hong, director of the Robotics and 
Mechanisms Laboratory (RoMeLa) at Virginia Tech’s 
<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = 
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" 
/>College of Engineering, along with Greg 
Jannaman and Kimberly Wenger, two of the 
undergraduate students that worked under Dr. 
Hong's direction on the first-generation 
prototype of the nonvisual interface for a 
blind-drivable vehicle.  Dr. Hong and his 
students are currently working with the NFB on 
the second-generation prototype vehicle, which 
will integrate new and improved versions of the 
first-generation nonvisual interface technologies 
into a Ford Escape.  The vehicle is scheduled to 
be demonstrated to the public as part of the 
pre-race activities at the 2011 Rolex 24 At Daytona on January 29, 2011.



Dr. Hong said: “Three years ago we accepted the 
NFB Blind Driver Challenge to develop a vehicle 
that can be driven by a blind person.  I 
recognized this as an opportunity to motivate my 
students to challenge themselves to change the 
world.  Winning the National Instruments 
Graphical System Design Achievement Award is a 
tremendous validation of their hard work and creativity.”



Ray Almgren, vice president of marketing for core 
platforms at National Instruments, said: “The 
competition was very intense this year, with more 
than one hundred applications submitted by 
universities and technology companies from around 
the world who are using National Instruments 
hardware and software to create life-changing 
technologies.  The Blind Driver Challenge of the 
National Federation of the Blind is truly 
reflective of our commitment to provide students, 
engineers, and scientists with the technology and 
training to improve quality of life worldwide.”



For more information about the NFB, please visit 
<http://www.nfb.org/>www.nfb.org.  For our 
digital news release about the Blind Driver 
Challenge and the planned debut of the BDC car at 
the Rolex 24, including audio and video clips for 
television and radio, please visit 
<http://www.digitalnewsrelease.com/?q=NFB_CarKit>www.DigitalNewsRelease.com/?q=NFB_CarKit. 






###







About the National Federation of the Blind



With more than 50,000 members, the National 
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most 
influential membership organization of blind 
people in the United States.  The NFB improves 
blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, 
research, technology, and programs encouraging 
independence and self-confidence.  It is the 
leading force in the blindness field today and 
the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 
the NFB opened the National Federation of the 
Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and 
training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind.



About National Instruments



National Instruments 
(<http://www.ni.com/>www.ni.com) is transforming 
the way engineers and scientists design, 
prototype and deploy systems for measurement, 
automation and embedded applications.  NI 
empowers customers with off-the-shelf software 
such as NI LabVIEW and modular cost-effective 
hardware, and sells to a broad base of more than 
30,000 different companies worldwide, with no one 
customer representing more than 3 percent of 
revenue and no one industry representing more 
than 15 percent of revenue.  Headquartered in 
Austin, Texas, NI has more than 5,000 employees 
and direct operations in more than 40 
countries.  For the past 11 years, FORTUNE 
magazine has named NI one of the 100 best companies to work for in America.



LabVIEW, National Instruments, NI, ni.com and 
NIWeek are trademarks of National Instruments. 
Other product and company names listed are 
trademarks or trade names of their respective companies.











__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, 
version of virus signature database 5371 (20100816) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

<http://www.eset.com>http://www.eset.com

From dandrews at visi.com  Tue Aug 17 10:04:11 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:04:11 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] transportation issue
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl>
References: <20100816191530.10392.95391@web1>
	<BAY130-DS166346EDFE2205240FB3188B9B0@phx.gbl>
	<8BA02AFE886D47A3AA93D924323B8AA0@kerrie025e8776>
	<BAY130-DS16C64F13D8D6B816AEEFD88B9B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <auto-000164639146@mailfront2.g2host.com>

There is the cab option, you could put up a notice, to hire a driver, 
at the Club, at a grocery store, or where ever people put up notices, 
or put ad in newspaper for driver etc.  Sometimes people are able to 
find volunteer drivers as well.

Dave

At 02:31 PM 8/16/2010, you wrote:


>Kind of thought that would be the answer.  Sadly only two people I 
>know own cars and there both very concervative in where they drive; 
>the only other answer I can think of is the expensive cab option.

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From chriswright11 at verizon.net  Tue Aug 17 11:29:55 2010
From: chriswright11 at verizon.net (Christopher Wright)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:29:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] special schools versus mainstreaming
Message-ID: <8EE7307E8CC74204B39D2D8E3F298BAF@DHP4VFK1>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jonathan Mosen 
To: announce at mushroomfm.com ; announce at mosenexplosion.com ; exploders at mosenexplosion.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 3:53 AM
Subject: This Week on Mosen and Minx, Special Schools versus Mainstreaming


It's another edition of Mosen and Minx, the show that's got the blind community talking.

This week, we want to get your perspective on special schools versus mainstreaming. Some people say that blind people have a better chance in life if they attend a special school for at least some of their education, where concentrated Braille instruction and instruction in alternative techniques is available. It's said that the resources simply don't exist for mainstreaming to work well, and too much time is spent by qualified teachers travelling to their various students.

Others say that people who attend special schools aren't as well able to function in the sighted world, and point to the dysfunctional family relationships created by young children living at school far away from their parents and siblings.'

We're interested in hearing your perspectives. Did you attend a mainstream school and were the resources there for you? If you attended a special school, do you think it gave you an advantage you wouldn't have received had you attended a mainstream school? And is there some sort of hybrid model where the best of both worlds can be achieved.

As always, this show only works if we hear from you, so we would be really pleased if you would listen to this show live, so you can call in with your views and respond to the opinions of others. You can do that by adding MosenAndMinx to Skype.

And join us live on http://www.MushroomFM.com on Tuesday at 8 PM Eastern, that's Wednesday at 0 UTC, noon in New Zealand, 10 AM in Eastern Australia. Julia and I look forward very much to hearing your thoughts and sharing experiences.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you wanna get a life and get off this dumb list, send a blank message to exploders-unsubscribe at mosenexplosion.com_______________________________________________
Exploders mailing list
Exploders at mosenexplosion.com
http://mosenexplosion.com/mailman/listinfo/exploders_mosenexplosion.com

From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 15:02:22 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:02:22 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!
In-Reply-To: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>
References: <20100817033906.16003.85742@web1>
Message-ID: <1F91D129937442F4B853DF36B6F2DDBE@Rufus>

Valerie,

I don't know that anyone has specifically ruled out the need for sighted
assistance when it comes to dog training.  For my part at least, I believe
it is essential during the training phase to learn alternative techniques
alongside an instructor to learn how to deal with varying situations when
you're finally out on your own.  We're speaking of aggression as though this
temperament is isolated, but it's been my experience that aggressive
behavior is only one manifestation of hyperactive behavior.  An overly
excited dog is just as likely to accidentally pounce as one that is simply
pissed off, and the reality is that if you're called out to a person's house
to train their canine, it's not going to be because the canine is a sweet,
easygoing animal.  Otherwise, they would have probably been able to carry
out the training themselves.

The most recent example of a time I dealt with an aggressive dog was with
the handling of my own pit-bull.  She flounced into my home believing she
would be the natural alpha in our household.  If she was sleeping and you
accidentally nudged her, she would wake up snapping.  If you took away the
toy she was chewing on, she would growl menacingly.  If a strange dog came
walking past her line of sight, she would nearly choke herself in her
attempt to lunge.  Every so often I still need to have a heart to heart to
remind her of her place in this chain, but for the most part she's been
tamed and is okay with mingling in public.  This is not to say it was an
easy task.  I used to grab her muzzle and shake her head just firm enough to
catch her attention when she would hit the peak of her tantrums.  I would
wrestle her to the ground and pin her with one hand until she learned to lie
still.  We experimented with a few other strategies I'd read about, not all
of them professional, but I never had to physically abuse her to make her
understand I would always be the authority figure above her.  I think deep
inside she feels as though she is still the alpha and only allows me to
think differently.  Regardless, she's a great animal.

Honestly, I think confidence is probably the key ingredient in dog training.
People who do not own or who have never worked with animals probably
underestimate the unique personalities of each animals.  They can read
humans better than we would think, and I know there are visual cues they
exhibit before attacking.  My own beast levers a concentrated, penetrating
glare before trying something stupid.  I can no longer pick up on this cue,
but we've gotten to know each other well enough not to have to solely rely
on visual indications.  In a training situation you will not have enough
time to become buddy-buddy with the canine in question, but I'm sure you'll
learn how to assert your alpha position early on to set the terms of how the
interaction is going to unravel.

With respect to confidence, I also think you need to be more confident in
yourself.  It seems as though you are going back and forth on how you want
to pursue your credentials.  Figure out which approach you want to take, and
then stick with it.  There is nothing wrong with expressing to the school
that you will need sighted assistance to familiarize yourself with
aggressive dog behavior.  But, ask it in a way that makes it clear to the
school that this is merely a supplemental dimension to your training, not an
essential one.  After all, they're looking for reasons to keep you out of
their program.  It's up to you to be like: "Look here, bitches.  I'm
applying to your program, and if I'm qualified, you're going to take me in,
because if you don't, I'm going to raise all kinds of hell seven ways to
Sunday."

I mean, have you already applied?  Have they already rejected you?  I hope
this is the case, because as long as this has not happen, and you're just
asking them questions about your eligibility, this is all hypothetical.
It's easier for them to tell you "no" without an application on hand.  If
you've already been rejected and you've already appealed the decision, then
we can talk about next steps.

Anyway, hope this helps,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From troubleclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 15:30:32 2010
From: troubleclark at gmail.com (Nathan Clark)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:30:32 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
In-Reply-To: <905940344-1281544921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-207802024-@bda2472.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo>
	<905940344-1281544921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-207802024-@bda2472.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Ke3kt4TnoJp3J1bStTwAkdxkw23V4jcNTfdWs@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Becky
Have you talked to the office of students with disabilities and see if
they can help you?
Sincerely,
Nathan Clark


On 8/11/10, aphelps at bism.org <aphelps at bism.org> wrote:
> Post an add on the bulletin board at school.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
> Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:35:02
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Reply-To: beckyasabo at gmail.com,
> 	National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am having trouble finding readers for this coming semester for school.
> Does anyone have any suggestions for me?
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Becky Sabo
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aphelps%40bism.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com
>


From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 17:09:00 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:09:00 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] questions about reading Braille, labeling, and canes
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinDJV8e0ZB3Qn1+n3JQeJdY9fr6ZvXhz6fYxtLp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS1998AF63EA5A9A2D08F3AEBA9C0@phx.gbl>

I'm a little late on this thread, but as far as Braille goes, I use a
combination of a notetaker and hardcopy Braille. There really isn't
anything, I feel, like opening up a physical book and reading it. I think
both ways of doing it have their place.

Liz 

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 17 17:16:55 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:16:55 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
References: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo><905940344-1281544921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-207802024-@bda2472.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=Ke3kt4TnoJp3J1bStTwAkdxkw23V4jcNTfdWs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27796225D7BD45B3AD140EE1DFFC969B@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     When I have needed to find readers, putting an add in a church bulletin 
or newsletter would often get me quality readers. One time, I put an add in 
the college newspaper. Contacting your local Lions club might be another 
option. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nathan Clark" <troubleclark at gmail.com>
To: <aphelps at bism.org>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall


> Dear Becky
> Have you talked to the office of students with disabilities and see if
> they can help you?
> Sincerely,
> Nathan Clark
>
>
> On 8/11/10, aphelps at bism.org <aphelps at bism.org> wrote:
>> Post an add on the bulletin board at school.
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
>> Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:35:02
>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing 
>> list'<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Reply-To: beckyasabo at gmail.com,
>> National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am having trouble finding readers for this coming semester for school.
>> Does anyone have any suggestions for me?
>>
>> Thanks again.
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> Becky Sabo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aphelps%40bism.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 17:35:39 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:35:39 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Requesting a Reader during Class?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikU59dWXSaJVOYLpGM7wC5mGAQxF8f-QjMCsXhw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I wanted to ask here before I took it up with the school, to get ideas
and advice.

Looking at the syllabi for my classes, several of them will have a
library day later in the semester. This library day is intended for
research time. Can I request a reader for these days (one day per
class)? I would want the reader throughout the class that day and
after school for further research (I doubt I'll get it all done during
the 1 hour class). Is this something I can request, or are readers
generally only available after classes? Should I tell the professor I
will have a reader that day, or just meet with the reader at the
library and not bother the professor with information that won't
effect the class?

I've never used a reader before, so I'm not really sure about these
things, but since I don't have a scanner yet and not all the resources
I need are available from e-books or webistes, I know I'll need
someone to help me with books in the library.

I would be grateful for any advice on this specifically and using a
reader in general.

~Jewel

-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 18:28:43 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:28:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Requesting a Reader during Class?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikU59dWXSaJVOYLpGM7wC5mGAQxF8f-QjMCsXhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikU59dWXSaJVOYLpGM7wC5mGAQxF8f-QjMCsXhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=w7Xtj3+4p6suMg8KdGLeYaf_70a_WgW9aMEmN@mail.gmail.com>

Jewel.  I'm sure you can get a reader to help you with your research.
I had a reader to come during my class last year when I had tests in
music theory.  The disability services office just needs to find one
whose schedule works with yours.  It shouldn't be a problem at all.

On 8/17/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I wanted to ask here before I took it up with the school, to get ideas
> and advice.
>
> Looking at the syllabi for my classes, several of them will have a
> library day later in the semester. This library day is intended for
> research time. Can I request a reader for these days (one day per
> class)? I would want the reader throughout the class that day and
> after school for further research (I doubt I'll get it all done during
> the 1 hour class). Is this something I can request, or are readers
> generally only available after classes? Should I tell the professor I
> will have a reader that day, or just meet with the reader at the
> library and not bother the professor with information that won't
> effect the class?
>
> I've never used a reader before, so I'm not really sure about these
> things, but since I don't have a scanner yet and not all the resources
> I need are available from e-books or webistes, I know I'll need
> someone to help me with books in the library.
>
> I would be grateful for any advice on this specifically and using a
> reader in general.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 19:13:33 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:13:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Requesting a Reader during Class?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikU59dWXSaJVOYLpGM7wC5mGAQxF8f-QjMCsXhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikU59dWXSaJVOYLpGM7wC5mGAQxF8f-QjMCsXhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CBA41B3A-78BF-4F9D-86AE-E59AA07A81FC@gmail.com>

Well, it all depends on what they mean by "research". Typically 100 level classes do have some kind of library day, which means that they want to familiarize students with the library, how to search for a book in the catalogue, how to find it in physically in the library etc. If that's what they want, you might not even need a reader. Library staff should be able to assist you. I've seen things like "look for a book by this author and make a copy of the front and back covers...". I know it sounds completely stupid, but I actually had to do this three years ago. I simply did it along with some friends and didn't need any assistance. But what I mean is that if the type of work you need to do at the library is very basic, a reader might not be necessary. Just ask the professor and I'm sure you'll figure it out.
On Aug 17, 2010, at 1:35 PM, Jewel S. wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I wanted to ask here before I took it up with the school, to get ideas
> and advice.
> 
> Looking at the syllabi for my classes, several of them will have a
> library day later in the semester. This library day is intended for
> research time. Can I request a reader for these days (one day per
> class)? I would want the reader throughout the class that day and
> after school for further research (I doubt I'll get it all done during
> the 1 hour class). Is this something I can request, or are readers
> generally only available after classes? Should I tell the professor I
> will have a reader that day, or just meet with the reader at the
> library and not bother the professor with information that won't
> effect the class?
> 
> I've never used a reader before, so I'm not really sure about these
> things, but since I don't have a scanner yet and not all the resources
> I need are available from e-books or webistes, I know I'll need
> someone to help me with books in the library.
> 
> I would be grateful for any advice on this specifically and using a
> reader in general.
> 
> ~Jewel
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 19:15:29 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:15:29 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
In-Reply-To: <27796225D7BD45B3AD140EE1DFFC969B@D3DTZP41>
References: <82E33B236B6846A3A93AC31820F6FD37@BeckySabo><905940344-1281544921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-207802024-@bda2472.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
	<AANLkTi=Ke3kt4TnoJp3J1bStTwAkdxkw23V4jcNTfdWs@mail.gmail.com>
	<27796225D7BD45B3AD140EE1DFFC969B@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <1645AA26-92C8-4B01-BC0B-7C343D009E48@gmail.com>

In my school, the disability services for students office pays for readers or any kind of assistants needed for classes. You might want to talk to them, because if they can take care of finding them and paying them, it would make things easier for you.
On Aug 17, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Robert Jaquiss wrote:

> Hello:
> 
>    When I have needed to find readers, putting an add in a church bulletin or newsletter would often get me quality readers. One time, I put an add in the college newspaper. Contacting your local Lions club might be another option. Hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robert
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nathan Clark" <troubleclark at gmail.com>
> To: <aphelps at bism.org>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
> 
> 
>> Dear Becky
>> Have you talked to the office of students with disabilities and see if
>> they can help you?
>> Sincerely,
>> Nathan Clark
>> 
>> 
>> On 8/11/10, aphelps at bism.org <aphelps at bism.org> wrote:
>>> Post an add on the bulletin board at school.
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
>>> Sender: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:35:02
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Reply-To: beckyasabo at gmail.com,
>>> National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] need help finding readers for the fall
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>> 
>>> I am having trouble finding readers for this coming semester for school.
>>> Does anyone have any suggestions for me?
>>> 
>>> Thanks again.
>>> 
>>> Sincerely
>>> 
>>> Becky Sabo
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aphelps%40bism.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/troubleclark%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 21:27:07 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:27:07 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
Message-ID: <AANLkTinjaZ3ja1F-y_fxzoPz=PBAHRwPzFGaiM=VxkDF@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago, but it was amidst
many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just start a new
thread about braille watches.

I am considering getting a braille watch because it would make it much
easier to independently tell the time in noisy or quiet situations. My
friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told me to look on
Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this, but I also did a
google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko watch I can find is
$150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent Living Aids is $179.
Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch? That's almost
$200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's up to me but I've
never really seen or used a braille watch before so I have no idea of
what prices are good, and what to look for.

Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them useful?

Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time and that has
worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille watch may help.

What are the differences between the expensive Seiko watches and the
cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...

What things/characteristics should I look at when trying to decide on a watch?

I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille watches...so which
ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get that is similar to
the Seiko?

Are there any other ones being made that you don't have to wind the
hands for? I've been told that with most other watches you have to
wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to do this.

Also, are you required to use a braille watch during training at
either LCB or CCB?

If so, which ones do they give?

Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually my computer
and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I have to ask
someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover on the Iphone.
The voice they use is kind of soft.

Thanks,
Kerri


From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 17 21:44:59 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:44:59 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
References: <AANLkTinjaZ3ja1F-y_fxzoPz=PBAHRwPzFGaiM=VxkDF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90ED06FF0FB44500921CB6BDCB8931FD@D3DTZP41>

Hello Kerri:

     In my opinion, if you have not used a braille watch before, get a cheap 
one. It isn't hard to learn, but if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't 
out too much money. There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The 
first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies, you wind it up 
each day. The second kind is the self winding watch. This type of watch has 
a mechanism that uses your body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the 
quartz movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open in one 
of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown or end of the winding 
stem. This releases a catch which lets the crystal string open so you can 
very gently feel the hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the 
two o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type opens at the 
six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes of braille watches. One for 
men which is the largest and one for ladies which is smaller. The lady's 
watch is a bit harder to read. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!


> Hi All!
>
> I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago, but it was amidst
> many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just start a new
> thread about braille watches.
>
> I am considering getting a braille watch because it would make it much
> easier to independently tell the time in noisy or quiet situations. My
> friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told me to look on
> Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this, but I also did a
> google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko watch I can find is
> $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent Living Aids is $179.
> Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch? That's almost
> $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's up to me but I've
> never really seen or used a braille watch before so I have no idea of
> what prices are good, and what to look for.
>
> Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them useful?
>
> Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time and that has
> worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille watch may help.
>
> What are the differences between the expensive Seiko watches and the
> cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>
> What things/characteristics should I look at when trying to decide on a 
> watch?
>
> I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille watches...so which
> ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get that is similar to
> the Seiko?
>
> Are there any other ones being made that you don't have to wind the
> hands for? I've been told that with most other watches you have to
> wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to do this.
>
> Also, are you required to use a braille watch during training at
> either LCB or CCB?
>
> If so, which ones do they give?
>
> Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually my computer
> and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I have to ask
> someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover on the Iphone.
> The voice they use is kind of soft.
>
> Thanks,
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net 



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 21:46:46 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:46:46 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinjaZ3ja1F-y_fxzoPz=PBAHRwPzFGaiM=VxkDF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinjaZ3ja1F-y_fxzoPz=PBAHRwPzFGaiM=VxkDF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B1EE8478-F40F-4D99-A334-C2E9062F666E@gmail.com>

In my opinion, a watch is a watch, and it's supposed to help you tell what time it is. What I mean is that if you want a watch that looks particularly cool and that's constructed with particularly great materials, then it might be worth spending $200 on it. But if you just need a watch that's practical and that you won't regret scratching and/or losing, then don't spend too much money on it. The ones that the independence market sells are just fine. I checked them out at convention and there was nothing wrong with them. Just think that these watches can't be used under water (I.E. when swimming, taking a shower etc). I'm really bad with these things and I've killed many watches by happily swimming with them on. So I would never spend $200 on a watch that I'll be wearing every day. I have a very good braille watch that I got in Switzerland for a lot of money, and I only use that for special occasions or just some days when I feel like using it. But it's definitely not something I use every day. These are all the things I would consider when buying a watch...!

Ignasi
On Aug 17, 2010, at 5:27 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi All!
> 
> I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago, but it was amidst
> many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just start a new
> thread about braille watches.
> 
> I am considering getting a braille watch because it would make it much
> easier to independently tell the time in noisy or quiet situations. My
> friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told me to look on
> Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this, but I also did a
> google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko watch I can find is
> $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent Living Aids is $179.
> Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch? That's almost
> $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's up to me but I've
> never really seen or used a braille watch before so I have no idea of
> what prices are good, and what to look for.
> 
> Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them useful?
> 
> Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time and that has
> worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille watch may help.
> 
> What are the differences between the expensive Seiko watches and the
> cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
> 
> What things/characteristics should I look at when trying to decide on a watch?
> 
> I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille watches...so which
> ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get that is similar to
> the Seiko?
> 
> Are there any other ones being made that you don't have to wind the
> hands for? I've been told that with most other watches you have to
> wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to do this.
> 
> Also, are you required to use a braille watch during training at
> either LCB or CCB?
> 
> If so, which ones do they give?
> 
> Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually my computer
> and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I have to ask
> someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover on the Iphone.
> The voice they use is kind of soft.
> 
> Thanks,
> Kerri
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From gera1027 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 22:12:41 2010
From: gera1027 at gmail.com (Gerardo Corripio)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:12:41 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking Talking Watch recommendation
Message-ID: <00fe01cb3e59$534d56e0$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>

Hi listers: Here in Mexico we have talking watches of those cheap ones with 
a woman's voice and the three alarms; they seem to be made of disposible 
material because I've tried taking them to get their battery changed but the 
machine in the watch is the one that doesn't work! I believe they're the 
same you guys have in the Chinese stores that costs $5 or $6, thus am 
wondering is there a better quality talking watch somewhere that has a 
better voice and that not only tells times but has a timer, stopwatch and 
other functions or are you guys stuck with those cheap watches that I'm 
talking about? I used to have a Seiko watch back in the eighties which 
lasted about fifteen years: the watch you guys might remember with a female 
voice and that you could set up to sound every half hour either by voice or 
just beeps; that was certainly a great watch! and am wondering is there 
something similar or are there only those cheap $6 watches I'm talking about 
those that only last for about a year before having to buy another one? here 
in Mexico they cost about eighty pesos; imagine spending eighty pesos every 
year rather than buying a good talking watch and having to spend only the 
cost of the battery! Hoefully there's something like what I'm looking for.
Gerardo 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 23:13:45 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:13:45 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking Talking Watch recommendation
In-Reply-To: <00fe01cb3e59$534d56e0$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
References: <00fe01cb3e59$534d56e0$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=XcLj9x--wJJg6mAiU-xhbz-iwsdcL7LNOjSUJ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I know MaxiAids has them and its good kind.
I think their site is www.maxiaid.org or .com, I'm not sure.
Justin

On 8/17/10, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi listers: Here in Mexico we have talking watches of those cheap ones with
> a woman's voice and the three alarms; they seem to be made of disposible
> material because I've tried taking them to get their battery changed but the
> machine in the watch is the one that doesn't work! I believe they're the
> same you guys have in the Chinese stores that costs $5 or $6, thus am
> wondering is there a better quality talking watch somewhere that has a
> better voice and that not only tells times but has a timer, stopwatch and
> other functions or are you guys stuck with those cheap watches that I'm
> talking about? I used to have a Seiko watch back in the eighties which
> lasted about fifteen years: the watch you guys might remember with a female
> voice and that you could set up to sound every half hour either by voice or
> just beeps; that was certainly a great watch! and am wondering is there
> something similar or are there only those cheap $6 watches I'm talking about
> those that only last for about a year before having to buy another one? here
> in Mexico they cost about eighty pesos; imagine spending eighty pesos every
> year rather than buying a good talking watch and having to spend only the
> cost of the battery! Hoefully there's something like what I'm looking for.
> Gerardo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 23:22:11 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:22:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking Talking Watch recommendation
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=XcLj9x--wJJg6mAiU-xhbz-iwsdcL7LNOjSUJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00fe01cb3e59$534d56e0$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
	<AANLkTi=XcLj9x--wJJg6mAiU-xhbz-iwsdcL7LNOjSUJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS13751AD84234A55F714DB28B9C0@phx.gbl>

We are in pending lidigation with that company right now I would suggest ILA 
or our own independence market.  I also had some issues with them stealing 
credit cards.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:13 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Seeking Talking Watch recommendation

> Well, I know MaxiAids has them and its good kind.
> I think their site is www.maxiaid.org or .com, I'm not sure.
> Justin
>
> On 8/17/10, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi listers: Here in Mexico we have talking watches of those cheap ones 
>> with
>> a woman's voice and the three alarms; they seem to be made of disposible
>> material because I've tried taking them to get their battery changed but 
>> the
>> machine in the watch is the one that doesn't work! I believe they're the
>> same you guys have in the Chinese stores that costs $5 or $6, thus am
>> wondering is there a better quality talking watch somewhere that has a
>> better voice and that not only tells times but has a timer, stopwatch and
>> other functions or are you guys stuck with those cheap watches that I'm
>> talking about? I used to have a Seiko watch back in the eighties which
>> lasted about fifteen years: the watch you guys might remember with a 
>> female
>> voice and that you could set up to sound every half hour either by voice 
>> or
>> just beeps; that was certainly a great watch! and am wondering is there
>> something similar or are there only those cheap $6 watches I'm talking 
>> about
>> those that only last for about a year before having to buy another one? 
>> here
>> in Mexico they cost about eighty pesos; imagine spending eighty pesos 
>> every
>> year rather than buying a good talking watch and having to spend only the
>> cost of the battery! Hoefully there's something like what I'm looking 
>> for.
>> Gerardo
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From jty727 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 17 23:29:29 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:29:29 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking Talking Watch recommendation
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS13751AD84234A55F714DB28B9C0@phx.gbl>
References: <00fe01cb3e59$534d56e0$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
	<AANLkTi=XcLj9x--wJJg6mAiU-xhbz-iwsdcL7LNOjSUJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY130-DS13751AD84234A55F714DB28B9C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxuedrJOjftsSUyTdtJ4BPTP4SkU0S-Phr+ha8@mail.gmail.com>

Really?  I wasn't aware of that.  Are in accessible or something?

On 8/17/10, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com> wrote:
> We are in pending lidigation with that company right now I would suggest ILA
> or our own independence market.  I also had some issues with them stealing
> credit cards.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:13 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Seeking Talking Watch recommendation
>
>> Well, I know MaxiAids has them and its good kind.
>> I think their site is www.maxiaid.org or .com, I'm not sure.
>> Justin
>>
>> On 8/17/10, Gerardo Corripio <gera1027 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi listers: Here in Mexico we have talking watches of those cheap ones
>>> with
>>> a woman's voice and the three alarms; they seem to be made of disposible
>>> material because I've tried taking them to get their battery changed but
>>> the
>>> machine in the watch is the one that doesn't work! I believe they're the
>>> same you guys have in the Chinese stores that costs $5 or $6, thus am
>>> wondering is there a better quality talking watch somewhere that has a
>>> better voice and that not only tells times but has a timer, stopwatch and
>>> other functions or are you guys stuck with those cheap watches that I'm
>>> talking about? I used to have a Seiko watch back in the eighties which
>>> lasted about fifteen years: the watch you guys might remember with a
>>> female
>>> voice and that you could set up to sound every half hour either by voice
>>> or
>>> just beeps; that was certainly a great watch! and am wondering is there
>>> something similar or are there only those cheap $6 watches I'm talking
>>> about
>>> those that only last for about a year before having to buy another one?
>>> here
>>> in Mexico they cost about eighty pesos; imagine spending eighty pesos
>>> every
>>> year rather than buying a good talking watch and having to spend only the
>>> cost of the battery! Hoefully there's something like what I'm looking
>>> for.
>>> Gerardo
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 17 23:40:44 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:40:44 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Seeking Talking Watch recommendation
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimxuedrJOjftsSUyTdtJ4BPTP4SkU0S-Phr+ha8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00fe01cb3e59$534d56e0$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1><AANLkTi=XcLj9x--wJJg6mAiU-xhbz-iwsdcL7LNOjSUJ@mail.gmail.com><BAY130-DS13751AD84234A55F714DB28B9C0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTimxuedrJOjftsSUyTdtJ4BPTP4SkU0S-Phr+ha8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS14445E686DFCC499DD59F78B9C0@phx.gbl>

I was informed by the state affiliate that I had to take them off our 
resources page because of pending settlement.
 



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 18 00:55:09 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:55:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <90ED06FF0FB44500921CB6BDCB8931FD@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but I do not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch or water prouf braille watch?
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
> Hello Kerri:
> 
>     In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
> harder to read. Hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robert Jaquiss
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
> 
> 
> > Hi All!
> > 
> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
> but it was amidst
> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
> start a new
> > thread about braille watches.
> > 
> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
> would make it much
> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
> quiet situations. My
> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
> me to look on
> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
> but I also did a
> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
> watch I can find is
> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
> Living Aids is $179.
> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
> That's almost
> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
> up to me but I've
> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
> have no idea of
> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
> > 
> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
> useful?
> > 
> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
> and that has
> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
> watch may help.
> > 
> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
> watches and the
> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
> > 
> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
> trying to decide on a watch?
> > 
> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
> watches...so which
> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
> that is similar to
> > the Seiko?
> > 
> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
> have to wind the
> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
> you have to
> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
> do this.
> > 
> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
> training at
> > either LCB or CCB?
> > 
> > If so, which ones do they give?
> > 
> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
> my computer
> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
> have to ask
> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
> on the Iphone.
> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Kerri
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From haltaf at carrollu.edu  Wed Aug 18 12:04:16 2010
From: haltaf at carrollu.edu (Hina)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:04:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>

yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of 
Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!


Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but I do 
not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch or 
water prouf braille watch?
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps 
there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze 
among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:

> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
> Hello Kerri:
>
> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert Jaquiss
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>
>
> > Hi All!
> >
> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
> but it was amidst
> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
> start a new
> > thread about braille watches.
> >
> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
> would make it much
> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
> quiet situations. My
> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
> me to look on
> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
> but I also did a
> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
> watch I can find is
> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
> Living Aids is $179.
> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
> That's almost
> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
> up to me but I've
> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
> have no idea of
> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
> >
> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
> useful?
> >
> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
> and that has
> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
> watch may help.
> >
> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
> watches and the
> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
> >
> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
> trying to decide on a watch?
> >
> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
> watches...so which
> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
> that is similar to
> > the Seiko?
> >
> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
> have to wind the
> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
> you have to
> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
> do this.
> >
> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
> training at
> > either LCB or CCB?
> >
> > If so, which ones do they give?
> >
> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
> my computer
> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
> have to ask
> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
> on the Iphone.
> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kerri
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>




_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu 



From blind.biker94 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 17:38:12 2010
From: blind.biker94 at gmail.com (Zach--the blind bike rider)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 11:38:12 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Requesting a Reader during Class?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikU59dWXSaJVOYLpGM7wC5mGAQxF8f-QjMCsXhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikU59dWXSaJVOYLpGM7wC5mGAQxF8f-QjMCsXhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2E49C34F2F7E419DAF9B8C8E89C813BA@zachPC>

Hi, yes; in 11th I am starting out with over 100 people who are willing to 
help in class.
Zach DreicerGriego
Phones
mobile (ABQ): +1 505 750 8483
Skype (PHX) +(1)480-2455057 ext. 584
Skype LHR (Lundon, UK) +(44)203-0516246 ext. 496

On the following networks, my user ID is chickerland: Skype, klango, twitter
 google talk ID/Facebook: blind.biker94 at gmail.com
My Telespace: +1 575 802 8600 ext. 8495
Are you a blind student in any level of education? If so, please join me on 
the blind-education list! To join: point your browser to:
Http://freelists.org/list/blind-education

are you interested in electronics? Then send a message to
electronicsfortheblind-request at emissives.com
with subscribe in the subject.
NOTICE
this message may contain confidential information. Such information is only 
revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed. If you have 
received this message in error, please contact the sender and destroy all 
copies of this message.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 11:35 AM
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] Requesting a Reader during Class?

> Hi all,
>
> I wanted to ask here before I took it up with the school, to get ideas
> and advice.
>
> Looking at the syllabi for my classes, several of them will have a
> library day later in the semester. This library day is intended for
> research time. Can I request a reader for these days (one day per
> class)? I would want the reader throughout the class that day and
> after school for further research (I doubt I'll get it all done during
> the 1 hour class). Is this something I can request, or are readers
> generally only available after classes? Should I tell the professor I
> will have a reader that day, or just meet with the reader at the
> library and not bother the professor with information that won't
> effect the class?
>
> I've never used a reader before, so I'm not really sure about these
> things, but since I don't have a scanner yet and not all the resources
> I need are available from e-books or webistes, I know I'll need
> someone to help me with books in the library.
>
> I would be grateful for any advice on this specifically and using a
> reader in general.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.biker94%40gmail.com 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 19:19:36 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:19:36 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>

Hi:

So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)

Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?

Are the quartz watches hard to read?

Kerri

On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>
>
> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but I do
> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch or
> water prouf braille watch?
> Anmol
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps
> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze
> among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>> Hello Kerri:
>>
>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert Jaquiss
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>
>>
>> > Hi All!
>> >
>> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>> but it was amidst
>> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>> start a new
>> > thread about braille watches.
>> >
>> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>> would make it much
>> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>> quiet situations. My
>> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>> me to look on
>> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>> but I also did a
>> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>> watch I can find is
>> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>> Living Aids is $179.
>> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>> That's almost
>> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>> up to me but I've
>> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>> have no idea of
>> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
>> >
>> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>> useful?
>> >
>> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>> and that has
>> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>> watch may help.
>> >
>> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>> watches and the
>> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>> >
>> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
>> trying to decide on a watch?
>> >
>> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>> watches...so which
>> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>> that is similar to
>> > the Seiko?
>> >
>> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>> have to wind the
>> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>> you have to
>> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>> do this.
>> >
>> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>> training at
>> > either LCB or CCB?
>> >
>> > If so, which ones do they give?
>> >
>> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>> my computer
>> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>> have to ask
>> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>> on the Iphone.
>> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Kerri
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>


From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 18 20:34:49 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:34:49 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com><EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>

Hello Kerri:

     If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an inexpensive
windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't want to
accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is expensive. Hope 
this helps.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!


> Hi:
>
> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>
> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>
> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>
> Kerri
>
> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>
>>
>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but I
>> do
>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch
>> or
>> water prouf braille watch?
>> Anmol
>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps
>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>> breeze
>> among flowers.
>> Hellen Keller
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>
>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hi All!
>>> >
>>> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>> but it was amidst
>>> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>> start a new
>>> > thread about braille watches.
>>> >
>>> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>> would make it much
>>> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>> quiet situations. My
>>> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>> me to look on
>>> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>> but I also did a
>>> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>> watch I can find is
>>> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>> That's almost
>>> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>> up to me but I've
>>> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>> have no idea of
>>> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>> >
>>> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>> useful?
>>> >
>>> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>> and that has
>>> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>> watch may help.
>>> >
>>> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>> watches and the
>>> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>> >
>>> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>> >
>>> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>> watches...so which
>>> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>> that is similar to
>>> > the Seiko?
>>> >
>>> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>> have to wind the
>>> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>> you have to
>>> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>> do this.
>>> >
>>> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>> training at
>>> > either LCB or CCB?
>>> >
>>> > If so, which ones do they give?
>>> >
>>> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>> my computer
>>> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>> have to ask
>>> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>> on the Iphone.
>>> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Kerri
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 20:44:56 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:44:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cleaning Braille Watches
In-Reply-To: <BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com><EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1><AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <886088A741F74BC7A93894AC4FA88A7D@Rufus>

Can anyone shed light on cleaning Braille watches?  I broke the band on
mine, let it sit for over a year and just recently brought it out again.
But, the crystal is atrocious.  You guys think it's something a jewelry
store could handle?

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 21:08:10 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:08:10 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Robert:

Where can you get one of those?

I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.

I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
independence market online is a $45 quartz one.

Kerri

On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hello Kerri:
>
>      If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an inexpensive
> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't want to
> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is expensive. Hope
> this helps.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>
>
>> Hi:
>>
>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>
>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>
>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but I
>>> do
>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch
>>> or
>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>> Anmol
>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps
>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>> breeze
>>> among flowers.
>>> Hellen Keller
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Hi All!
>>>> >
>>>> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>> but it was amidst
>>>> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>> start a new
>>>> > thread about braille watches.
>>>> >
>>>> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>> would make it much
>>>> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>> me to look on
>>>> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>> but I also did a
>>>> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>> watch I can find is
>>>> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>> That's almost
>>>> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>> up to me but I've
>>>> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>> have no idea of
>>>> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>> >
>>>> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>> useful?
>>>> >
>>>> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>> and that has
>>>> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>> watch may help.
>>>> >
>>>> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>> watches and the
>>>> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>> >
>>>> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>> >
>>>> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>> watches...so which
>>>> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>> that is similar to
>>>> > the Seiko?
>>>> >
>>>> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>> have to wind the
>>>> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>> you have to
>>>> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>> do this.
>>>> >
>>>> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>> training at
>>>> > either LCB or CCB?
>>>> >
>>>> > If so, which ones do they give?
>>>> >
>>>> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>> my computer
>>>> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>> have to ask
>>>> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> > Kerri
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 21:09:14 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:09:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cleaning Braille Watches
In-Reply-To: <886088A741F74BC7A93894AC4FA88A7D@Rufus>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<886088A741F74BC7A93894AC4FA88A7D@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpyB6eAnzv0s-kwVZ4k1MwkgAv9bYQpxRdq4EV@mail.gmail.com>

Joe:

Just curious...which kind do you have?

Kerri

On 8/18/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone shed light on cleaning Braille watches?  I broke the band on
> mine, let it sit for over a year and just recently brought it out again.
> But, the crystal is atrocious.  You guys think it's something a jewelry
> store could handle?
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 18 21:26:33 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:26:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com><EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1><AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com><BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>

Kerri,
Try looking at American print house for the blind; sometimes they sell 
accessories.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of 
Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!


> Hi Robert:
>
> Where can you get one of those?
>
> I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
> seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
> any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.
>
> I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
> expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
> out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
> independence market online is a $45 quartz one.
>
> Kerri
>
> On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hello Kerri:
>>
>>      If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an 
>> inexpensive
>> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't want 
>> to
>> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is expensive. 
>> Hope
>> this helps.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>
>>
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>>
>>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>>
>>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but 
>>>> I
>>>> do
>>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch
>>>> or
>>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>>> Anmol
>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. 
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>> breeze
>>>> among flowers.
>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten" 
>>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hi All!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>>> but it was amidst
>>>>> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>>> start a new
>>>>> > thread about braille watches.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>>> would make it much
>>>>> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>>> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>>> me to look on
>>>>> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>>> but I also did a
>>>>> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>>> watch I can find is
>>>>> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>>> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>>> That's almost
>>>>> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>>> up to me but I've
>>>>> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>>> have no idea of
>>>>> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>>> useful?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>>> and that has
>>>>> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>>> watch may help.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>>> watches and the
>>>>> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>>> watches...so which
>>>>> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>>> that is similar to
>>>>> > the Seiko?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>>> have to wind the
>>>>> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>>> you have to
>>>>> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>>> do this.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>>> training at
>>>>> > either LCB or CCB?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If so, which ones do they give?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>>> my computer
>>>>> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>>> have to ask
>>>>> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>>> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>> > Kerri
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 21:28:01 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:28:01 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Cleaning Braille Watches
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com><EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1><AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com><BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<886088A741F74BC7A93894AC4FA88A7D@Rufus>
Message-ID: <5729571592B24C2F83BFB739F18E5E41@D9P3ZND1>

I've taken my Braille watch to a jewelry store and they were able to clean 
it in no time.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'Robert Jaquiss'" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "'National Association of 
Blind Students mailing list'" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:44 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Cleaning Braille Watches


> Can anyone shed light on cleaning Braille watches?  I broke the band on
> mine, let it sit for over a year and just recently brought it out again.
> But, the crystal is atrocious.  You guys think it's something a jewelry
> store could handle?
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 22:33:15 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:33:15 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All:

I just looked again on the nfb site. In ladies braille watches, they
have a quartz one that I'm assuming is battery-powered for $45.

How long do the batteries usually last on these?

When they need a new battery, can you just get one and put it in
yourself or does the watch have to be taken into a jewelry store?

Are the batteries expensive?

Ashley, I will check out American Printing House but I'm leaning on
just getting the $45 one from NFB.

Kerri

On 8/18/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Kerri,
> Try looking at American print house for the blind; sometimes they sell
> accessories.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>
>
>> Hi Robert:
>>
>> Where can you get one of those?
>>
>> I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
>> seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
>> any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.
>>
>> I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
>> expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
>> out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
>> independence market online is a $45 quartz one.
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>
>>>      If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an
>>> inexpensive
>>> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't want
>>> to
>>> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is expensive.
>>> Hope
>>> this helps.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi:
>>>>
>>>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>>>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>>>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>>>
>>>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>>>
>>>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but
>>>>> I
>>>>> do
>>>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch
>>>>> or
>>>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>>>> Anmol
>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>>> breeze
>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten"
>>>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Hi All!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>>>> but it was amidst
>>>>>> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>>>> start a new
>>>>>> > thread about braille watches.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>>>> would make it much
>>>>>> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>>>> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>>>> me to look on
>>>>>> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>>>> but I also did a
>>>>>> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>>>> watch I can find is
>>>>>> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>>>> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>>>> That's almost
>>>>>> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>>>> up to me but I've
>>>>>> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>>>> have no idea of
>>>>>> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>>>> useful?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>>>> and that has
>>>>>> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>>>> watch may help.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>>>> watches and the
>>>>>> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>>>> watches...so which
>>>>>> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>>>> that is similar to
>>>>>> > the Seiko?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>>>> have to wind the
>>>>>> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>>>> you have to
>>>>>> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>>>> do this.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>>>> training at
>>>>>> > either LCB or CCB?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If so, which ones do they give?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>>>> my computer
>>>>>> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>>>> have to ask
>>>>>> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>>>> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>>> > Kerri
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From jackson.dezman at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 23:00:21 2010
From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:00:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com><EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1><AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com><BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41><AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com><4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C88E0BB06D8465EACA77FF037B57F60@Dezman>

I think the average person, even those inexperienced in reading Braille 
watches, with reasonable handling can deal with them without causing damage. 
However, unless you're looking for something fancy, the cheaper ones hold up 
quite well.

Best,
Dezman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>; "National Association of 
Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!


> Hi All:
>
> I just looked again on the nfb site. In ladies braille watches, they
> have a quartz one that I'm assuming is battery-powered for $45.
>
> How long do the batteries usually last on these?
>
> When they need a new battery, can you just get one and put it in
> yourself or does the watch have to be taken into a jewelry store?
>
> Are the batteries expensive?
>
> Ashley, I will check out American Printing House but I'm leaning on
> just getting the $45 one from NFB.
>
> Kerri
>
> On 8/18/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Kerri,
>> Try looking at American print house for the blind; sometimes they sell
>> accessories.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>
>>
>>> Hi Robert:
>>>
>>> Where can you get one of those?
>>>
>>> I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
>>> seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
>>> any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.
>>>
>>> I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
>>> expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
>>> out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
>>> independence market online is a $45 quartz one.
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>
>>>>      If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an
>>>> inexpensive
>>>> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't 
>>>> want
>>>> to
>>>> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is expensive.
>>>> Hope
>>>> this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>>>>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>>>>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>>>>
>>>>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere 
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille 
>>>>>> watch
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>>>>> Anmol
>>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>>>> breeze
>>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten"
>>>>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> > Hi All!
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>>>>> but it was amidst
>>>>>>> > many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>>>>> start a new
>>>>>>> > thread about braille watches.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>>>>> would make it much
>>>>>>> > easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>>>>> > friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>>>>> me to look on
>>>>>>> > Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>>>>> but I also did a
>>>>>>> > google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>>>>> watch I can find is
>>>>>>> > $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>>>>> > Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>>>>> That's almost
>>>>>>> > $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>>>>> up to me but I've
>>>>>>> > never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>>>>> have no idea of
>>>>>>> > what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>>>>> useful?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>>>>> and that has
>>>>>>> > worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>>>>> watch may help.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>>>>> watches and the
>>>>>>> > cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>>>>> watches...so which
>>>>>>> > ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>>>>> that is similar to
>>>>>>> > the Seiko?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>>>>> have to wind the
>>>>>>> > hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>>>>> you have to
>>>>>>> > wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>>>>> do this.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>>>>> training at
>>>>>>> > either LCB or CCB?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > If so, which ones do they give?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>>>>> my computer
>>>>>>> > and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>>>>> have to ask
>>>>>>> > someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>>>>> > The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Thanks,
>>>>>>> > Kerri
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com
> 



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 00:49:49 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:49:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: [nabs] Fwd: Recruiting for D.C.-Area Focus Group,
	Accessibility of High-Stakes Testing
Message-ID: <642102.54387.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>



 

 




> 
> Hello. Please see the announcement/invitation below 
>to participate in an upcoming focus group. Forwarding and reposting is encouraged. 
> Thank you.
> 
> Recruiting for D.C. Area Focus Group, Accessibility 
>of High Stakes Testing
> 
> The Graduate Management Admission Council (GMAC®) is working with WGBH's 
>Carl and Ruth Shapiro National Center for Accessible Media (WGBH-NCAM) to conduct 
>a focus group on the accessibility of the Graduate Management Admission Test (GMAT®) 
>by people who are blind, have low vision or have a mobility impairment, and who 
>use a keyboard vs. a mouse for online navigation. Your participation is requested. 
> Preference is given to individuals who have had experience taking a high stakes 
>graduate admission test.
> 
> Focus Group participants will be asked questions about test taking experiences 
>including test functionality and navigation, and to provide preferences for potential 
>delivery of accessible graphics and other imagery.
> 
> An honorarium will be offered, and transportation to the site of the focus 
>group (Reston, VA) arranged and costs reimbursed.
> 
> Please send an email to access at wgbh.org with "participate" in the subject line. The focus 
>group will be held in the morning of one of these three dates. Please include your 
>preferences of dates by indicating first choice and second choice.
> 
> Thursday, September 16
> Tuesday, September 21
> Monday, October 4
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> -- 
> Mary Watkins
> Director of Communications 
> and Outreach
> Media Access Group at WGBH
> One Guest Street
> Boston, MA 02135
> 617 300-3700
> mary_watkins at wgbh.org
> access.wgbh.org
> 
> Follow the Media Access Group on Facebook and Twitter (@AccessWGBH)
> 
> WGBH Boston informs, inspires, and entertains millions through public
> broadcasting, the Web, educational multimedia, and access services for
> people with disabilities.
> 
> 
> 
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
nabs mailing list
nabs at acb.org
http://www.acb.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs



      

From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 01:16:22 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:16:22 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>

Just don't worry too much about the battery for now. It can literally last for years. You will need to take it to a jewelry store to change the battery, but they take two or three minutes to do it and it's not expensive.
On Aug 18, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi All:
> 
> I just looked again on the nfb site. In ladies braille watches, they
> have a quartz one that I'm assuming is battery-powered for $45.
> 
> How long do the batteries usually last on these?
> 
> When they need a new battery, can you just get one and put it in
> yourself or does the watch have to be taken into a jewelry store?
> 
> Are the batteries expensive?
> 
> Ashley, I will check out American Printing House but I'm leaning on
> just getting the $45 one from NFB.
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 8/18/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Kerri,
>> Try looking at American print house for the blind; sometimes they sell
>> accessories.
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>> 
>> 
>>> Hi Robert:
>>> 
>>> Where can you get one of those?
>>> 
>>> I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
>>> seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
>>> any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.
>>> 
>>> I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
>>> expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
>>> out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
>>> independence market online is a $45 quartz one.
>>> 
>>> Kerri
>>> 
>>> On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>> 
>>>>     If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an
>>>> inexpensive
>>>> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't want
>>>> to
>>>> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is expensive.
>>>> Hope
>>>> this helps.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Robert
>>>> 
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi:
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>>>>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>>>>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>>>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere but
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille watch
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>>>>> Anmol
>>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>>>> breeze
>>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten"
>>>>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi All!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>>>>> but it was amidst
>>>>>>>> many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>>>>> start a new
>>>>>>>> thread about braille watches.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>>>>> would make it much
>>>>>>>> easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>>>>>> friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>>>>> me to look on
>>>>>>>> Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>>>>> but I also did a
>>>>>>>> google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>>>>> watch I can find is
>>>>>>>> $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>>>>>> Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>>>>> That's almost
>>>>>>>> $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>>>>> up to me but I've
>>>>>>>> never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>>>>> have no idea of
>>>>>>>> what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>>>>> useful?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>>>>> and that has
>>>>>>>> worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>>>>> watch may help.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>>>>> watches and the
>>>>>>>> cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>>>>> watches...so which
>>>>>>>> ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>>>>> that is similar to
>>>>>>>> the Seiko?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>>>>> have to wind the
>>>>>>>> hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>>>>> you have to
>>>>>>>> wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>>>>> do this.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>>>>> training at
>>>>>>>> either LCB or CCB?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> If so, which ones do they give?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>>>>> my computer
>>>>>>>> and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>>>>> have to ask
>>>>>>>> someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>>>>>> The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 01:49:06 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:49:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
	<D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimyZvA16b0yj1ET949S5j3UkSAsktN3UaA8PJnz@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All:

Okay.

Are the seiko ones battery-powered or wind-up?

Kerri

On 8/18/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Just don't worry too much about the battery for now. It can literally last
> for years. You will need to take it to a jewelry store to change the
> battery, but they take two or three minutes to do it and it's not expensive.
> On Aug 18, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
>> Hi All:
>>
>> I just looked again on the nfb site. In ladies braille watches, they
>> have a quartz one that I'm assuming is battery-powered for $45.
>>
>> How long do the batteries usually last on these?
>>
>> When they need a new battery, can you just get one and put it in
>> yourself or does the watch have to be taken into a jewelry store?
>>
>> Are the batteries expensive?
>>
>> Ashley, I will check out American Printing House but I'm leaning on
>> just getting the $45 one from NFB.
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 8/18/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Kerri,
>>> Try looking at American print house for the blind; sometimes they sell
>>> accessories.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Robert:
>>>>
>>>> Where can you get one of those?
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
>>>> seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
>>>> any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.
>>>>
>>>> I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
>>>> expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
>>>> out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
>>>> independence market online is a $45 quartz one.
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>
>>>>>     If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an
>>>>> inexpensive
>>>>> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't
>>>>> want
>>>>> to
>>>>> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is expensive.
>>>>> Hope
>>>>> this helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>>>>>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>>>>>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille
>>>>>>> watch
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>>>>>> Anmol
>>>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>>>>> breeze
>>>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>>>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>>>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>>>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>>>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>>>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>>>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>>>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>>>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>>>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>>>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>>>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>>>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>>>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>>>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>>>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>>>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>>>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten"
>>>>>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi All!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>>>>>> but it was amidst
>>>>>>>>> many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>>>>>> start a new
>>>>>>>>> thread about braille watches.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>>>>>> would make it much
>>>>>>>>> easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>>>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>>>>>>> friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>>>>>> me to look on
>>>>>>>>> Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>>>>>> but I also did a
>>>>>>>>> google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>>>>>> watch I can find is
>>>>>>>>> $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>>>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>>>>>>> Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>>>>>> That's almost
>>>>>>>>> $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>>>>>> up to me but I've
>>>>>>>>> never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>>>>>> have no idea of
>>>>>>>>> what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>>>>>> useful?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>>>>>> and that has
>>>>>>>>> worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>>>>>> watch may help.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>>>>>> watches and the
>>>>>>>>> cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>>>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>>>>>> watches...so which
>>>>>>>>> ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>>>>>> that is similar to
>>>>>>>>> the Seiko?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>>>>>> have to wind the
>>>>>>>>> hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>>>>>> you have to
>>>>>>>>> wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>>>>>> do this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>>>>>> training at
>>>>>>>>> either LCB or CCB?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If so, which ones do they give?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>>>>>> my computer
>>>>>>>>> and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>>>>>> have to ask
>>>>>>>>> someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>>>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>>>>>>> The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Aug 19 01:53:06 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:53:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] test
Message-ID: <69A16CCA-7734-421F-AFC3-50F12BF63586@mac.com>

Hi guys:
this is Jorge.
I'm just testing to see if I can post.
Sorry about this but I couldn't post before and I was testing to see if that was my error.

Thanks.

Jorge





From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 02:42:50 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:42:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com><EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1><AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com><BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41><AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com><4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley><AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com><D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimyZvA16b0yj1ET949S5j3UkSAsktN3UaA8PJnz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <447B823FA8C74E1BA5879834EA50D080@D9P3ZND1>

The Seiko is battery powered.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!


> Hi All:
>
> Okay.
>
> Are the seiko ones battery-powered or wind-up?
>
> Kerri
>
> On 8/18/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just don't worry too much about the battery for now. It can literally 
>> last
>> for years. You will need to take it to a jewelry store to change the
>> battery, but they take two or three minutes to do it and it's not 
>> expensive.
>> On Aug 18, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All:
>>>
>>> I just looked again on the nfb site. In ladies braille watches, they
>>> have a quartz one that I'm assuming is battery-powered for $45.
>>>
>>> How long do the batteries usually last on these?
>>>
>>> When they need a new battery, can you just get one and put it in
>>> yourself or does the watch have to be taken into a jewelry store?
>>>
>>> Are the batteries expensive?
>>>
>>> Ashley, I will check out American Printing House but I'm leaning on
>>> just getting the $45 one from NFB.
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> On 8/18/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,
>>>> Try looking at American print house for the blind; sometimes they sell
>>>> accessories.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Robert:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where can you get one of those?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
>>>>> seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
>>>>> any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
>>>>> expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
>>>>> out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
>>>>> independence market online is a $45 quartz one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an
>>>>>> inexpensive
>>>>>> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is 
>>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>> Hope
>>>>>> this helps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>>>>>>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>>>>>>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National 
>>>>>>>> Association
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille
>>>>>>>> watch
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>>>>>>> Anmol
>>>>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>>>>>> breeze
>>>>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>>>>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>>>>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>>>>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>>>>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>>>>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>>>>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>>>>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>>>>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>>>>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>>>>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>>>>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>>>>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>>>>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>>>>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>>>>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>>>>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>>>>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten"
>>>>>>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi All!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>>>>>>> but it was amidst
>>>>>>>>>> many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>>>>>>> start a new
>>>>>>>>>> thread about braille watches.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>>>>>>> would make it much
>>>>>>>>>> easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>>>>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>>>>>>>> friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>>>>>>> me to look on
>>>>>>>>>> Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>>>>>>> but I also did a
>>>>>>>>>> google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>>>>>>> watch I can find is
>>>>>>>>>> $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>>>>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>>>>>>>> Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>>>>>>> That's almost
>>>>>>>>>> $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>>>>>>> up to me but I've
>>>>>>>>>> never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>>>>>>> have no idea of
>>>>>>>>>> what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>>>>>>> useful?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>>>>>>> and that has
>>>>>>>>>> worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>>>>>>> watch may help.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>>>>>>> watches and the
>>>>>>>>>> cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>>>>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>>>>>>> watches...so which
>>>>>>>>>> ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>>>>>>> that is similar to
>>>>>>>>>> the Seiko?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>>>>>>> have to wind the
>>>>>>>>>> hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>>>>>>> you have to
>>>>>>>>>> wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>>>>>>> do this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>>>>>>> training at
>>>>>>>>>> either LCB or CCB?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If so, which ones do they give?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>>>>>>> my computer
>>>>>>>>>> and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>>>>>>> have to ask
>>>>>>>>>> someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>>>>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>>>>>>>> The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
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>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 



From liamskitten at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 03:37:22 2010
From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:37:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] test
In-Reply-To: <69A16CCA-7734-421F-AFC3-50F12BF63586@mac.com>
References: <69A16CCA-7734-421F-AFC3-50F12BF63586@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikT3ZE-StXwpiJ4ORLNFzFZSW=P7a_bwE0uC8Ot@mail.gmail.com>

Jorge,

The message came through.
Courtney

On 8/18/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
> Hi guys:
> this is Jorge.
> I'm just testing to see if I can post.
> Sorry about this but I couldn't post before and I was testing to see if that
> was my error.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com
>


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 04:10:37 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:10:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <447B823FA8C74E1BA5879834EA50D080@D9P3ZND1>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
	<D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimyZvA16b0yj1ET949S5j3UkSAsktN3UaA8PJnz@mail.gmail.com>
	<447B823FA8C74E1BA5879834EA50D080@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinPbTejWtakc0owYVsSuuGCV8HDYXXa+DX+UZLq@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All:

Okay, I have decided to just go with the $45 quartz. I was told that
with watches there really isn't much of a difference they all do the
same thing...it's just whether you want a fancier more expensive
brand-name watch. So, I'm just going with the cheaper quartz.

Thanks for all your help! I hope I like it!
Kerri

On 8/18/10, Anjelina <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
> The Seiko is battery powered.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 9:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>
>
>> Hi All:
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> Are the seiko ones battery-powered or wind-up?
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 8/18/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just don't worry too much about the battery for now. It can literally
>>> last
>>> for years. You will need to take it to a jewelry store to change the
>>> battery, but they take two or three minutes to do it and it's not
>>> expensive.
>>> On Aug 18, 2010, at 6:33 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi All:
>>>>
>>>> I just looked again on the nfb site. In ladies braille watches, they
>>>> have a quartz one that I'm assuming is battery-powered for $45.
>>>>
>>>> How long do the batteries usually last on these?
>>>>
>>>> When they need a new battery, can you just get one and put it in
>>>> yourself or does the watch have to be taken into a jewelry store?
>>>>
>>>> Are the batteries expensive?
>>>>
>>>> Ashley, I will check out American Printing House but I'm leaning on
>>>> just getting the $45 one from NFB.
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> On 8/18/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Kerri,
>>>>> Try looking at American print house for the blind; sometimes they sell
>>>>> accessories.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National Association of
>>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:08 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Robert:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where can you get one of those?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't want to get anything from Maxiaids, Independent Living Aids
>>>>>> seems really pricy, and then there is the NFB store but I didn't see
>>>>>> any wind-up watches online, just the quartz ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am definitely not getting the $175 one as that's way too
>>>>>> expensive...I want to take your advice and get a cheaper one to start
>>>>>> out with but the cheapest I can find at least from the NFB
>>>>>> independence market online is a $45 quartz one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/18/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     If you have never used a braille watch, I advise getting an
>>>>>>> inexpensive
>>>>>>> windup one. It takes practice to read a braille watch and you don't
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> accidentally dammage a $170+ watch. Getting them repaired is
>>>>>>> expensive.
>>>>>>> Hope
>>>>>>> this helps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 2:19 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, looking online, the independence market seems to only have the
>>>>>>>> quartz kind, which according to what Robert said is the one I would
>>>>>>>> want since it is battery-powered (I don't want to wind up anything.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Should I just get the cheapest quartz I can find?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are the quartz watches hard to read?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/18/10, Hina <haltaf at carrollu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> yes there is vibrating braille watch in our store at work.
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Anmol Bhatia" <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "Robert Jaquiss" <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>; "National
>>>>>>>>> Association
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 7:55 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there a vibirating braille watch? I thought I saw one somewhere
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> not remember where. Also is there such thing as a digital braille
>>>>>>>>> watch
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> water prouf braille watch?
>>>>>>>>> Anmol
>>>>>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>>>>>>> breeze
>>>>>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: Robert Jaquiss <rjaquiss at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 4:44 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Kerri:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In my opinion, if you have not used a braille
>>>>>>>>>> watch before, get a cheap one. It isn't hard to learn, but
>>>>>>>>>> if you mess up a cheap watch, you aren't out too much money.
>>>>>>>>>> There are basically three kinds of braille watches. The
>>>>>>>>>> first and oldest is the wind up watch. As the name implies,
>>>>>>>>>> you wind it up each day. The second kind is the self winding
>>>>>>>>>> watch. This type of watch has a mechanism that uses your
>>>>>>>>>> body's motion to keep it wound. The third is the quartz
>>>>>>>>>> movement type which is battery powered. Braille watches open
>>>>>>>>>> in one of three ways. The first way is to press on the crown
>>>>>>>>>> or end of the winding stem. This releases a catch which lets
>>>>>>>>>> the crystal string open so you can very gently feel the
>>>>>>>>>> hands. Other release mechanisms have a button at the two
>>>>>>>>>> o'clock position which release the crystal. The third type
>>>>>>>>>> opens at the six o'clock position. There are two basic sizes
>>>>>>>>>> of braille watches. One for men which is the largest and one
>>>>>>>>>> for ladies which is smaller. The lady's watch is a bit
>>>>>>>>>> harder to read. Hope this helps.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Robert Jaquiss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kerri Kosten"
>>>>>>>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I asked briefly about this in a post a few days ago,
>>>>>>>>>> but it was amidst
>>>>>>>>>>> many other questions so I figured it'd be best to just
>>>>>>>>>> start a new
>>>>>>>>>>> thread about braille watches.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am considering getting a braille watch because it
>>>>>>>>>> would make it much
>>>>>>>>>>> easier to independently tell the time in noisy or
>>>>>>>>>> quiet situations. My
>>>>>>>>>>> friend has a Seiko braille watch. David Andrews told
>>>>>>>>>> me to look on
>>>>>>>>>>> Independent Living Aids for it. I not only did this,
>>>>>>>>>> but I also did a
>>>>>>>>>>> google shopping search for it. The cheapest Seiko
>>>>>>>>>> watch I can find is
>>>>>>>>>>> $150 from Amazon. The Seiko watch on Independent
>>>>>>>>>> Living Aids is $179.
>>>>>>>>>>> Please help! Is this a good price for a braille watch?
>>>>>>>>>> That's almost
>>>>>>>>>>> $200. My friend, and David Andrews told me that it's
>>>>>>>>>> up to me but I've
>>>>>>>>>>> never really seen or used a braille watch before so I
>>>>>>>>>> have no idea of
>>>>>>>>>>> what prices are good, and what to look for.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do many of you use braille watches? Do you find them
>>>>>>>>>> useful?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Right now, I use my Iphone or my computer to tell time
>>>>>>>>>> and that has
>>>>>>>>>>> worked but when I am in a noisy environment a braille
>>>>>>>>>> watch may help.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What are the differences between the expensive Seiko
>>>>>>>>>> watches and the
>>>>>>>>>>> cheaper ones? I saw ones on the NFB site for $45...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What things/characteristics should I look at when
>>>>>>>>>> trying to decide on a watch?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I also know Seiko has stopped making their braille
>>>>>>>>>> watches...so which
>>>>>>>>>>> ones do most of you use? What is a good one to get
>>>>>>>>>> that is similar to
>>>>>>>>>>> the Seiko?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any other ones being made that you don't
>>>>>>>>>> have to wind the
>>>>>>>>>>> hands for? I've been told that with most other watches
>>>>>>>>>> you have to
>>>>>>>>>>> wind the hands but with the Seikos you don't have to
>>>>>>>>>> do this.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, are you required to use a braille watch during
>>>>>>>>>> training at
>>>>>>>>>>> either LCB or CCB?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, which ones do they give?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Is it even worth getting one? Lol. Like I said usually
>>>>>>>>>> my computer
>>>>>>>>>>> and/or my Iphone are fine, but in noisy environments I
>>>>>>>>>> have to ask
>>>>>>>>>>> someone what time it is because I can't hear Voiceover
>>>>>>>>>> on the Iphone.
>>>>>>>>>>> The voice they use is kind of soft.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rjaquiss%40earthlink.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haltaf%40carrollu.edu
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>


From empower at smart.net  Thu Aug 19 10:55:22 2010
From: empower at smart.net (Jamal Mazrui)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 05:55:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Announcing Encoding utility
Message-ID: <auto-000167700084@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Now available at
http://EmpowermentZone.com/Encoding.zip

Encoding
Version 1.0
August 8, 2010
Copyright 2010 by Jamal Mazrui
GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL)
----------

Contents

Description
Installation
Operation
Development Notes
----------

Description

Encoding is a free, open source, command-line utility for performing 
encoding-related operations on files.  It can show the encoding of 
files, and convert between different encodings.  Batch operations are 
supported if wildcard characters are used in the file 
specification.  The executable, Encoding.exe, should run on any 
version of Windows.  The source code, Encoding.py, should run on 
other platforms as well.

An encoding is an agreement about how to represent textual characters 
with computer bytes.  Characters are encoded as byte sequences that 
may be stored in disk files or computer memory.  A byte stream is 
decoded to produce characters in a human language.  If a text file is 
not readable, the reason may be that it has an encoding that was 
either not recognized or not decoded properly.  This utility may help 
with such issues, benefiting software developers or end users.  It 
works with over a hundred character encodings.
----------

Installation

Unarchive Encoding.zip into a directory, e.g., into
C:\Encoding

Run Encoding.exe at a command prompt, e.g., one created by entering
cmd.exe

at the Windows Start/Run prompt.

Since Encoding is developed in a cross-platform language, Python, it 
should also be possible to run the source code, Encoding.py, on other 
platforms that have a Python interpreter.
----------

Operation

The complete command-line syntax of Encoding is as follows:

Encoding.exe TaskName FileSpec SourceEncoding TargetEncoding

Some parameters are optional or not applicable depending on the name 
of the task.  Typing the .exe extension is optional.  Capitalization 
does not matter in task or encoding names .  The following tasks are 
supported, illustrated with example parameter values:

encoding help

provides a help summary.  The help parameter is assumed if no other 
valid task name is entered.

encoding default

provides the default language and encoding of the computer, e.g.,
en-us cp1252

which means U.S. English using code page 1252.

encoding show *.txt

provides the encoding of all files meeting the *.txt 
specification.  If a file has a Unicode byte order mark (BOM), the 
encoding can be exactly determined.  Otherwise, the encoding is 
huristically detected by analyzing various factors.  This is the same 
algorithm used by the Firefox web browser to detect the encoding of 
text.  It is usually correct, but not always.

encoding convert *.txt utf-8b

converts all *.txt files to UTF-8 encoding with a BOM.  Use utf-8n to 
get utf-8 without a BOM, which is the norm on Linux and the Mac.  For 
ease of typing, the dash character (-) is optional, so utf8b or utf8n 
may be used instead.  Note that these are not official encoding 
names, but conventions to help clarify whether utf-8 is being encoded 
with or without a BOM. Some Windows programs prefer one, while others do not.

encode convert *.txt utf8n utf8b

converts *.txt files to UTF8 with a BOM.  In this case, both a source 
and target encoding are specified.  Rather than detecting the source 
encoding, it is treated as UTF-8 without a BOM.

If the word 'backup' rather than 'convert' is used for the task, the 
original files will be backed up with the same names except for the 
addition of a .bak extension.

encode url http://python.org

provides encoding information about the web page at that address. 
Encoding references are sought in the server response headers and 
meta data of the page.  A conflict between encoding references is reported.

encoding bytes *.txt

provides a list of numeric byte values, one per line, for all files 
matching the pattern.  The first line is the file name.  This is 
probably most useful when analyzing a single source file, and when 
redirecting standard output to another file that may be examined in 
an editor, e.g.,
encoding bytes test.txt >temp.txt

encoding chars temp.txt >test.txt

provides output in a similar form except that each line shows 
information about a character rather than a byte (Unicode can 
represent a character with multiple bytes).  Each line has the 
Unicode name of the character, its numeric code point, and an ASCII 
equivalent of the character if available and different from the 
original character.  For example, the ellipses symbol  has the code 
point U2026, and an ASCII equivalent of three consecutive periods 
(...), so it would appear as
HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS 8230 ...


Add a SourceEncoding parameter to specify the file's encoding 
directly, rather than auto-detect it.
----------

Development Notes

The Encoding utility is developed with the Python 2.5 language from
http://python.org

The following built-in packages are used:  codecs, glob, locale, os, 
shutil, sys, and unicodedata.

The following third-party packages are used:

chardet -- Universal encoding detector
http://chardet.feedparser.org

encutils -- Encoding detection collection for Python
http://cthedot.de/encutils/

py2exe -- Build standalone executables for Windows
http://py2exe.org

unidecode -- Unicode transliteration in Python
http://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/archives/2009/01/unicode_transliteration_in_python/

The batch file, RunSetup.bat, runs the py2exe script, setup.py, to 
create the stand-alone executable, Encoding.exe.

I welcome feedback, suggestions, and code contributions, which will 
help this project improve over time.



From minichiellog at comcast.net  Thu Aug 19 11:03:21 2010
From: minichiellog at comcast.net (Gina Minichiello)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:03:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] LAST CHANCE Cruise of a Lifetime Raffle
Message-ID: <auto-000167700619@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Hurry! Hurry! The big day is fast approaching. Don't miss your chance to win.


Cruise of a Lifetime Raffle

  Win up to a 7 night Holland America cruise for two oceanview cabin
Choose the date and itinerary. No expiration date. A $1600 value.
Destinations: Caribbean, Mexico, Alaska, or New England/Canada.
All taxes excluded. Winner need not be present to win.
1 for $3.00 or 2 for $5.00

Drawing: September 6, 2010


If you would like to pay by check, if possible, please include your 
email address in the memo field. Make checks payable to NFBF and mail to:

NFBF
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3708 West Bay to Bay Blvd.
Tampa, FL 33629

If you have any questions, my contact information is below.


Gina Minichiello
NFBF Fundraising Committee Chairperson
Greater Jacksonville Chapter, Treasurer
minichiellog at comcast.net
904-571-9117



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 14:30:11 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:30:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
Message-ID: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
"define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
than the rest!

~Jewel

-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jackson.dezman at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 14:33:15 2010
From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:33:15 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15F910D86B67427A92DF4FE857E3AAAA@Dezman>

Jewel,

Try www.dictionary.com

Dezman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:30 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com
> 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Aug 19 14:34:46 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:34:46 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F6272579-4055-463C-B42A-6E5A0A582D03@mac.com>

Google the Free Online Marrium Webster dictionarry.
I'm not sure of the site, but once you get there it should be easy to get the deffenitions.

 



On Aug 19, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Jewel S. wrote:

> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
> 
> ~Jewel
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 14:35:58 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:35:58 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>

In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed by a colon.
Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
"define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
than the rest!

~Jewel

-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Aug 19 15:01:11 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:01:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
Message-ID: <0C2654E4-856E-42CF-B024-96DBA29DDC74@mac.com>

Hello list:
Just had a quick queestion.
So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful, as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can just flip the cover up and write something.

Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?



I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not meant for personal stuff.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.


Jorge


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 15:14:38 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:14:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>

The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
more important homework to get to.

~Jewel

On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed by a colon.
> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jackson.dezman at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 15:43:13 2010
From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:43:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
	<AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61068748FD974BE48A7A621A4E917ECA@Dezman>

Jewel,

If you navigate by heading after you've hit search, pressing the letter H if 
you use jaws, that should get you to the results quicker.

Best,
Dezman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
> reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
> as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
> definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
> online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
> advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
> Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
> low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
> definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
> This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
> more important homework to get to.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed by a colon.
>> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>
>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>> than the rest!
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com
> 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 15:56:55 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:56:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
	<AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>

I'll look around, see if I can find a plain text dictionary.  I don't know
if Dictionary.com has a mobile interface, but that might be a possible
solution.  Also, not to add to your technology pile, but the Franklin
Language Master is an excellent tool.  Mine broke a few years back, and I
still have it on my list of things to get.  It's a dictionary and then some
and talks out of the box, though its price is a little beyond what one would
pay for a hardcopy at a bookstore, $400 or so.  Still, if you're planning on
doing professional writing in your future, which gathering from your posts
on Stylist this would appear to be the case, it would seem like something to
add to your list of equipment for your counselor.  And, come on!  Don't hate
on Wikipedia!  It's helped me make sense out of many a complicated concepts!
(grin)

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jewel S. [mailto:herekittykat2 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students 
mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
more important homework to get to.

~Jewel

On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed 
by a colon.
> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
ykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Aug 19 16:13:05 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:13:05 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
	<AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
	<5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>
Message-ID: <A4CCC283-E4C0-4FD8-8B9A-56AA21328EDA@mac.com>

Joe:
I'm not one to hate on Wikipedia, but I am aware that, at least in NY, starting in 9th grade you can be expelled for using it.

So, wouldn't be surprised if colleges banned it too.



On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:56 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:

> I'll look around, see if I can find a plain text dictionary.  I don't know
> if Dictionary.com has a mobile interface, but that might be a possible
> solution.  Also, not to add to your technology pile, but the Franklin
> Language Master is an excellent tool.  Mine broke a few years back, and I
> still have it on my list of things to get.  It's a dictionary and then some
> and talks out of the box, though its price is a little beyond what one would
> pay for a hardcopy at a bookstore, $400 or so.  Still, if you're planning on
> doing professional writing in your future, which gathering from your posts
> on Stylist this would appear to be the case, it would seem like something to
> add to your list of equipment for your counselor.  And, come on!  Don't hate
> on Wikipedia!  It's helped me make sense out of many a complicated concepts!
> (grin)
> 
> Joe
> 
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jewel S. [mailto:herekittykat2 at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students 
> mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
> 
> The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
> reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
> as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
> definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
> online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
> advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
> Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
> low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
> definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
> This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
> more important homework to get to.
> 
> ~Jewel
> 
> On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed 
> by a colon.
>> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
> their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>> 
>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>> than the rest!
>> 
>> ~Jewel
>> 
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
> ykat2%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From brice.smith319 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 19:24:42 2010
From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:24:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] copyediting symbols
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim=eoHXDg25Oe7PPyct9k=5r7P_vQtRDpmuXM3j@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=vyznJ3hjQtSrNTbtiqNht0pMuQdiRyB-5ywvz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTim=eoHXDg25Oe7PPyct9k=5r7P_vQtRDpmuXM3j@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim2yPvNQtfhCLHEX6auHJa_9reYV3rxbpZzumdO@mail.gmail.com>

I am coming to realize there is a huge difference between lecture
based courses and practical courses. This course might very well put
all my advocacy skills to the test, in part because the instructor,
while helpful and knowledgeable, has very limited computer skills and
experience. Kerri, while media in general is moving online and to
electronic formats, that hardly helps when your instructor requires
close readings of the print (yes, print) newspaper every day and uses
printed news stories from the 80's and 90's as writing examples in
class. The instructor's student assistants can certainly scan these
stories into PDF files, but the quality is questionable and using a
tool like Omnipage is of little help.

Sure, the NFB has Newsline which you can view on the web. But
Newsline, while a great tool for reading the contents of papers, is
disappointedly not actually organized like a newspaper. That is, when
a student brings up an article on the front page or something on page
3B, I have to hunt the article down. Newsline organizes papers by
sections and categories but not by pages which makes following class
discussion exceptionally difficult. This morning's front page story in
print was buried under the category "local and state" on the Newsline
interface. Likewise, the next print story was a national story in a
different category on the Newsline site.

I still believe I will succeed in the course. At least, I have to
succeed with nothing less than a B+ for my public relations major and
I've come up with enough methods and work arounds for many issues.
Luckily, the instructor is very kind although admittedly elderly and
somewhat out of touch with modern media. Ignasi's suggestion may work
well and I believe I can pay to access a PDF of my local paper which,
according to my parents, is actually organized just like a printed
newspaper. But I still worry I'll spend more time trying to access the
material than actually studying or accessing the material, something
that should always be minimized or avoided as much as possible.

Brice

On 8/16/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bryce:
>
> I'm a journalism major in college. I've never had this.
>
> Maybe you could use a reader or have someone read the test orally to
> you and maybe somehow you could tell them which symbol to mark?
>
> Hmm...may not work but just a thought...I have no idea!
>
> I want to be a sports reporter but I want to do online and multi-media
> not print...I thought most journalism is online now and I thought most
> stuff was done via the computer...
>
> Also, I would suggest subscribing and posting your message to the
> Blind Journalists list...maybe they would have some suggestions?
>
> Hope this helps some...and please keep us posted on what solution you
> come up with as I hope I don't run into this problem!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 8/16/10, Brice Smith <brice.smith319 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm taking a journalism class this semester, and one of the
>> requirements involves copyediting tests. According to the instructor
>> these are pencil editing tests using symbols that will be given out on
>> the first day of the class.
>>
>> Has anyone used these before? I'm trying to figure out methods for
>> completing the work, and or If I need to come up with any adaptations
>> since this involves printed visual symbols.
>>
>> -Brice
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>


From blind.biker94 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 19:41:34 2010
From: blind.biker94 at gmail.com (Zach--the blind bike rider)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:41:34 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
In-Reply-To: <0C2654E4-856E-42CF-B024-96DBA29DDC74@mac.com>
References: <0C2654E4-856E-42CF-B024-96DBA29DDC74@mac.com>
Message-ID: <0C7B322804EA474AB0B3C4F7EF5CCE5E@zachPC>

Hi jorge yes u should. Given your reasoning, that is. PS: call me when 
timeallows.
Zach DreicerGriego
Phones
mobile (ABQ): +1 505 750 8483
Skype (PHX) +(1)480-2455057 ext. 584
Skype LHR (Lundon, UK) +(44)203-0516246 ext. 496

On the following networks, my user ID is chickerland: Skype, klango, twitter
 google talk ID/Facebook: blind.biker94 at gmail.com
My Telespace: +1 575 802 8600 ext. 8495
Are you a blind student in any level of education? If so, please join me on 
the blind-education list! To join: point your browser to:
Http://freelists.org/list/blind-education

are you interested in electronics? Then send a message to
electronicsfortheblind-request at emissives.com
with subscribe in the subject.
NOTICE
this message may contain confidential information. Such information is only 
revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed. If you have 
received this message in error, please contact the sender and destroy all 
copies of this message.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:01 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?

> Hello list:
> Just had a quick queestion.
> So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm 
> using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
> However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful, 
> as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
> Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but 
> doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can 
> just flip the cover up and write something.
>
> Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?
>
>
>
> I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have 
> to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not 
> meant for personal stuff.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Jorge
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.biker94%40gmail.com 



From stevemax83 at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 19 19:45:00 2010
From: stevemax83 at yahoo.com (Steven Max-Faults)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
In-Reply-To: <0C2654E4-856E-42CF-B024-96DBA29DDC74@mac.com>
Message-ID: <78958.18866.qm@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>





Hi Jorge,

Throughout high school, the Board of Ed also gave me a
Braille Note. For the reasons you mentioned, I also found it very convenient
for personal stuff as well. I recommend using the Braille Note from the Board
of Ed for all your needs. I know it’s only supposed to be used for
school-related stuff, but I don’t think anyone would mind. Buying another note
taker would be an unnecessary expense, and not to mention, it would be really
annoying to have to carry around both, remembering to precisely divide your
life into personal and school.

 

Just my thoughts. How do others feel about this?

 

Best,

Steven

--- On Thu, 8/19/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:

From: Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 11:01 AM

Hello list:
Just had a quick queestion.
So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful, as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can just flip the cover up and write something.

Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?



I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not meant for personal stuff.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks.


Jorge

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/stevemax83%40yahoo.com



      

From blind.biker94 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 19:41:34 2010
From: blind.biker94 at gmail.com (Zach--the blind bike rider)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:41:34 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
In-Reply-To: <0C2654E4-856E-42CF-B024-96DBA29DDC74@mac.com>
References: <0C2654E4-856E-42CF-B024-96DBA29DDC74@mac.com>
Message-ID: <0C7B322804EA474AB0B3C4F7EF5CCE5E@zachPC>

Hi jorge yes u should. Given your reasoning, that is. PS: call me when 
timeallows.
Zach DreicerGriego
Phones
mobile (ABQ): +1 505 750 8483
Skype (PHX) +(1)480-2455057 ext. 584
Skype LHR (Lundon, UK) +(44)203-0516246 ext. 496

On the following networks, my user ID is chickerland: Skype, klango, twitter
 google talk ID/Facebook: blind.biker94 at gmail.com
My Telespace: +1 575 802 8600 ext. 8495
Are you a blind student in any level of education? If so, please join me on 
the blind-education list! To join: point your browser to:
Http://freelists.org/list/blind-education

are you interested in electronics? Then send a message to
electronicsfortheblind-request at emissives.com
with subscribe in the subject.
NOTICE
this message may contain confidential information. Such information is only 
revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed. If you have 
received this message in error, please contact the sender and destroy all 
copies of this message.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:01 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?

> Hello list:
> Just had a quick queestion.
> So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm 
> using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
> However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful, 
> as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
> Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but 
> doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can 
> just flip the cover up and write something.
>
> Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?
>
>
>
> I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have 
> to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not 
> meant for personal stuff.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Jorge
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blind.biker94%40gmail.com 



From bhunter at nfbga.org  Thu Aug 19 20:30:29 2010
From: bhunter at nfbga.org (Beverly Hunter)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:30:29 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] 2010 NFB of Georgia State Convention
Message-ID: <auto-000167818789@mailfront1.g2host.com>



The National Federation of the Blind of Georgia 
would like to invite you to our Thirty-Seventh 
Annual State Convention.  Our theme is: “Touching 
the Future Toward Braille Literacy.”  This year, 
our State Convention will be held on Friday, 
October 8 thru Sunday, October 10.  Registration 
is $35.00 (including lunch on Saturday), and the 
banquet cost is $35.00.  The convention will be 
held in Downtown Decatur, Georgia at theHoliday 
Inn Conference Center located at 130 Clairmont 
Avenue, Decatur, GA 30030.  Room rates are 
$89.00.    Early registration and a banquet 
ticket can be purchased at a discount before 
September 30th for $30.00 each. Room reservations 
can be made by calling 800-465-4329.  Don't 
forget to mention that you will be staying at 
theHoliday Inn in Decatur, Georgia, and make 
mention of the NFB convention to receive the special room rate.



The state Convention of the National Federation 
of the Blind of Georgia is the largest gathering 
of the blind in the state.  Approximately 200 
blind people, family members, friends, and 
blindness service providers come together for a 
weekend of seminars, presentations, workshops, 
and general discussions on training, technology, 
and strategies for improving the quality of life 
of blind people.  The following is just a sample 
of the topics an activities:



* NFB-NEWSLINE® New Features and Enhancements

* Braille Literacy Initiatives

* Georgians Empowered Through Mentoring Success

* Braille Enrichment through Literacy and Nonvisual Learning

* NFB Youth Slam

* Parents of blind Children Seminar

* Blind Students Luncheon

* Updates on State Education and Rehabilitation Programs



For more information, or to register for the 
event, visit <http://WWW.NFBGA.ORG>WWW.NFBGA.ORG, 
or call the office at 866-316-3242.  It promises 
to be an exciting and educational weekend.
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From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Thu Aug 19 20:44:13 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:44:13 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <15F910D86B67427A92DF4FE857E3AAAA@Dezman>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
	<15F910D86B67427A92DF4FE857E3AAAA@Dezman>
Message-ID: <DF4DC798FCEA4A3F97EAFF6F829C7814@windows4c0ed96>

Hi Jewel, A  librarian suggested  to me using freedictionary.com. Let me
know if you have luck with this, I have not had time to try it yet.  I
think, for the long term, I am going to use the  online dictionaries and
encyclopedias in my public library at San diego available to library card
holders.  This may have alearning curve, but I am planning to tackle it
soon.  I have useed some online databases, such as Proquest, where you type
in a student identification number, and have access to a number  of
databases and sometimes dictionaries.  I think using this method would be
prefereable because it might be faster and maybe more detailed.  I too find
it exasperating to go the google route by typing in define: and the word you
are looking for.  So ;many headings and adds for me to travel.  And even
though as a hopeless bookworm I know the definitions of most words, there
are always subtle nuances  that can be found in a good dictionary.  My
favorite is Random House.   Good luck!Best, Ginny

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Dezman Jackson
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:33 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

Jewel,

Try www.dictionary.com

Dezman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:30 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gma
il.com
> 


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
et



From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 20:45:02 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:45:02 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Remember to vote for youth slam!!
Message-ID: <AANLkTi==1D16F0nk-icTKsagfB=yDgOoxtP+r28v4Y83@mail.gmail.com>

Hey fellow nabsters!

 I just texted my vote (101913) for nfb  youth slam to  PEPSI
(73774)!   it's real easy to do and takes practically no time to
make it happen,
yet will benifit many many blind youth from all over the country.  You
can ask any  past participant or mentor about how amazing of  a
project  youth slam is  and what  an amazing oppertunity this  can be
if we do our part to make sure  youth slam is one of the top two vote
getters in the pepsi refresh everything project!
 With our amazing ability to  text, and  our tremendous persistence,
we can  help in a big way to secure a wonderful opportunity for  our
youth in  short order!
 So, lets work together in making youth slam 2011 a reality!

 Working  with you always for the common goal,
 Darian


-- 
Darian Smith
Board member
 Membership Co - Chair
National Association of Blind Students
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Thu Aug 19 21:17:03 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:17:03 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus><AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
	<5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>
Message-ID: <59B5913D74A24ACBAA764F9598D430D3@windows4c0ed96>

Hi Jo, this Franklin dictionary, I am curious, it sounds super.  Does it
work as a standalone?  Or does it plug into a computer?  Also, I have never
heard of it, where would you buyit?  A splurge, but it sounds like something
I would enjoy.  Best, Ginnie

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:57 AM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

I'll look around, see if I can find a plain text dictionary.  I don't know
if Dictionary.com has a mobile interface, but that might be a possible
solution.  Also, not to add to your technology pile, but the Franklin
Language Master is an excellent tool.  Mine broke a few years back, and I
still have it on my list of things to get.  It's a dictionary and then some
and talks out of the box, though its price is a little beyond what one would
pay for a hardcopy at a bookstore, $400 or so.  Still, if you're planning on
doing professional writing in your future, which gathering from your posts
on Stylist this would appear to be the case, it would seem like something to
add to your list of equipment for your counselor.  And, come on!  Don't hate
on Wikipedia!  It's helped me make sense out of many a complicated concepts!
(grin)

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jewel S. [mailto:herekittykat2 at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students 
mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
more important homework to get to.

~Jewel

On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed 
by a colon.
> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
ykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
et



From davidschool97 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 21:32:03 2010
From: davidschool97 at gmail.com (David)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:32:03 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <59B5913D74A24ACBAA764F9598D430D3@windows4c0ed96>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus><AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com><5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>
	<59B5913D74A24ACBAA764F9598D430D3@windows4c0ed96>
Message-ID: <21053E30C26646669B1F9E2FBFF45656@Davidpc>

hi do you have a braille note empower. because you cood by the franklin 
dictonarry and not have to carry around 2 devices
David Thomas
Owner and moderator of electronicsandmorefortheblind at 
electronicsfortheblind-request at emissives.com with subscribe in the subject 
line
Vice President of Paez Production Networks
subscribe to No Eyes required on iTunes e-mail me with any concerns at 
davidschool97 at gmail.com
Please note:
this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication 
is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the 
subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this 
message and/or any accompanying media.




--------------------------------------------------
From: "V Nork" <ginisd at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 4:17 PM
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list'" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

> Hi Jo, this Franklin dictionary, I am curious, it sounds super.  Does it
> work as a standalone?  Or does it plug into a computer?  Also, I have 
> never
> heard of it, where would you buyit?  A splurge, but it sounds like 
> something
> I would enjoy.  Best, Ginnie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Joe Orozco
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:57 AM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
> I'll look around, see if I can find a plain text dictionary.  I don't know
> if Dictionary.com has a mobile interface, but that might be a possible
> solution.  Also, not to add to your technology pile, but the Franklin
> Language Master is an excellent tool.  Mine broke a few years back, and I
> still have it on my list of things to get.  It's a dictionary and then 
> some
> and talks out of the box, though its price is a little beyond what one 
> would
> pay for a hardcopy at a bookstore, $400 or so.  Still, if you're planning 
> on
> doing professional writing in your future, which gathering from your posts
> on Stylist this would appear to be the case, it would seem like something 
> to
> add to your list of equipment for your counselor.  And, come on!  Don't 
> hate
> on Wikipedia!  It's helped me make sense out of many a complicated 
> concepts!
> (grin)
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jewel S. [mailto:herekittykat2 at gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
> The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
> reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
> as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
> definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
> online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
> advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
> Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
> low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
> definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
> This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
> more important homework to get to.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed
> by a colon.
>> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
> their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>
>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>> than the rest!
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
> ykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidschool97%40gmail.com 



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 22:49:40 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:49:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
In-Reply-To: <78958.18866.qm@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <78958.18866.qm@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <9E962DFF-C33C-401F-9883-AC149F627058@gmail.com>

I feel exactly the same way. Use the one you have for all your needs...!
On Aug 19, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Steven Max-Faults wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jorge,
> 
> Throughout high school, the Board of Ed also gave me a
> Braille Note. For the reasons you mentioned, I also found it very convenient
> for personal stuff as well. I recommend using the Braille Note from the Board
> of Ed for all your needs. I know it’s only supposed to be used for
> school-related stuff, but I don’t think anyone would mind. Buying another note
> taker would be an unnecessary expense, and not to mention, it would be really
> annoying to have to carry around both, remembering to precisely divide your
> life into personal and school.
> 
>  
> 
> Just my thoughts. How do others feel about this?
> 
>  
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steven
> 
> --- On Thu, 8/19/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> From: Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 11:01 AM
> 
> Hello list:
> Just had a quick queestion.
> So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
> However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful, as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
> Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can just flip the cover up and write something.
> 
> Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?
> 
> 
> 
> I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not meant for personal stuff.
> 
> What are your thoughts?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Jorge
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/stevemax83%40yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org  Thu Aug 19 23:11:46 2010
From: gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org (Greg)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:11:46 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] New member with intro and a question.
Message-ID: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba>

Hello everyone,
My name is Greg Wocher and I am 35 years old.  I am getting ready to start at DeVry doing my studies online.  I will be a Computer Engineering Technology major.  My question is this, has anyone ever used a program called MyScribe?  At DeVry online they use this program for the books for the students.
Thank you in advance,
Greg Wocher

From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 23:56:50 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 19:56:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
In-Reply-To: <9E962DFF-C33C-401F-9883-AC149F627058@gmail.com>
References: <78958.18866.qm@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<9E962DFF-C33C-401F-9883-AC149F627058@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinFGStgPDrZAV-EKdJajQs+UHK9Qd7bSY2RGVMy@mail.gmail.com>

Hi George:

I cagree 100 percent with everyone else.

Notetakers are very expensive. You should not have to get a econd one,
and it would be ridiculous trying to divide your personal and school
life around between two notetakers.

Kerri

On 8/19/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> I feel exactly the same way. Use the one you have for all your needs...!
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Steven Max-Faults wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Jorge,
>>
>> Throughout high school, the Board of Ed also gave me a
>> Braille Note. For the reasons you mentioned, I also found it very
>> convenient
>> for personal stuff as well. I recommend using the Braille Note from the
>> Board
>> of Ed for all your needs. I know it’s only supposed to be used for
>> school-related stuff, but I don’t think anyone would mind. Buying another
>> note
>> taker would be an unnecessary expense, and not to mention, it would be
>> really
>> annoying to have to carry around both, remembering to precisely divide
>> your
>> life into personal and school.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just my thoughts. How do others feel about this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Steven
>>
>> --- On Thu, 8/19/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 11:01 AM
>>
>> Hello list:
>> Just had a quick queestion.
>> So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm
>> using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
>> However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful,
>> as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
>> Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but
>> doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can
>> just flip the cover up and write something.
>>
>> Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?
>>
>>
>>
>> I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have
>> to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not
>> meant for personal stuff.
>>
>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/stevemax83%40yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 02:42:40 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:42:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
Message-ID: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>

Hello,

It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to quit
fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head for
several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that it
will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more than
just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...

Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind characters
portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed.  They're
either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can either
go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of my
original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback of
the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of my
ramblings, right?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character should be
featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this person
would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience the
typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule out
a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a balanced
prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic reactions in
someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to be
very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, I'd
like to know this as well.

Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation in
the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously shared
with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel free to
tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question so
that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
(grin)  Thanks in advance.

Joe

***

	Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter would
one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his e-mail
inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the kind
Christian and his family could do without.
	They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been right
to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a total
surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
encounter.
	On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of them
often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out the
door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising plot.
With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids who
would have already forgotten what they learned.
	Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish state
of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice Christian
hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
	"Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
	Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British accent
emanating from it.
	"I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
	The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes riveted
to the machine.
	"Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the phone.
This is most urgent."
	Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it was
almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
collected.
	"Hello," he croaked.
	"Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
genuinely relieved.
	"Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
	"Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
	"We are not friends," Christian countered.
	"So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
	"You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
	"Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
let me get to the purpose of my call."
	Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far preferable to
the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
	"One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
	"I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
whisper.
	"I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
	"I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
	"You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity.  No
one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
	"I was told I could--"
	"You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend your
allegiance never existed?"
	Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son, Aaron,
stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a newborn
cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had felt
that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could just
get away?
	"One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
	"I beg your pardon?"
	"A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
	Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin to
imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, well,
random!
	"What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
	Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
eighteen years?"
	After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
	"Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
"You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy to
just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
something?"
	"I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier brothers
would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
	"I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
taking in a child from a family I never even met."
	"Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will be
coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
	"And if I refuse?"
	"Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
touch."
	The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in his
head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The nature
of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed with
secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered how
long they had been monitoring his family.

***

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing



From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 03:18:40 2010
From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 22:18:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.28.1282237206.21353.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.28.1282237206.21353.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <004601cb4016$63af6b90$2b0e42b0$@com>

Jewel,

On dictionary.com I just do a control F and search for "show." That will
take you directly to the top of the entries returned by your search; where
it says something like "show pronunciation."

Hope it's useful,

Sean



From treyman19 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 04:11:49 2010
From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:11:49 +0800
Subject: [nabs-l] re n
Message-ID: <AANLkTinS3ZOg5YTQ80tAsVBWF73hBMN2YRAFQwRu_Kx0@mail.gmail.com>

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From marrie12 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 04:27:05 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 21:27:05 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [M-A] FW: [MSS] Fw: I'm filing an official complaint
	against Microsoft
References: <CD0AF067-BACE-4E9B-AFB8-4782FCE13ED9@msu.edu>
Message-ID: <CF1617BB-C6B6-4F0C-971E-C9AB58DEB9CC@gmail.com>

I got this off of another list.
Take care.
>> Please forward this to all blind mailing lists that have anything to do with
>> technology.  You may also, submit this to magazines such as The Braille
>> Forum, the Braille Monitor, and any other magazine for the blind.
>> 
>> To all the blind of America,
>> 
>> Well, nobody has had the guts to do it, so, I have done it.  I have filed an
>> official complaint with the US Justice department on behalf of the blind of
>> America!
>> 
>> This complaint is about Microsoft's new operating system for cell phones and
>> PDAS.  I have the complaint below, so you can see it.
>> 
>> It is time to put Microsoft in the corner, and push them around, like we
>> should have done, with computer screen readers, years ago!
>> 
>> The address, for the Justice Department ADA complaints office, as you'll
>> see, is below, so, if other blind people want to join me on the cell phone
>> complaint, they can.  I'm excited, that finally, someone is gonna make
>> Microsoft face the music, and it should be loud, and thunderous!
>> 
>> If anyone does want to file a complaint with the justice department, you
>> must be sure to mention your full name, your mailing address, phone number
>> with Area code, and the date of your complaint.
>> 
>> Many blind people have asked me in the past year, "Harry, does it really do
>> any good to file a complaint against a big corporation?"  You'll see it
>> does, below, in my complaint history, in the past 15 months!  I thought like
>> many blind folks did, before that.  I thought, "I'm a nobody, they won't
>> listen to me."
>> 
>> I filed a complaint against Motorola last year, about their phones with no
>> screen readers on them, and we settled in a week, and out of my complaint,
>> came a talking cell phone, with a built in web browser, voice note recorder,
>> word processor, talking clock, and internet radio station player.  They were
>> wonderful with me!  They gave me a phone, with a screen reader installed
>> from Code factory, which I use everywhere I go!
>> 
>> the NFB and Motorola had an agreement that all cell phones using the Android
>> operating system will be fully accessible, out of the box.  This has started
>> to take place, as of January, 2010!  I also filed a complaint with the FCC
>> against Apple, about touch screens not being accessible for the blind, and
>> the latest from Apple is, a braille expert on refreshable braille screens,
>> has been hired by Apple, as of 2 weeks ago!  This man, Apple says, will make
>> all their touch screens on their iPhones to use refreshable braille, so, the
>> blind can feel where they are on the screen at all times, and tap all icons,
>> because they will be able to feel all icon labels!
>> 
>> So, want something changed? Get bold, and don't back down, and file that
>> complaint!
>> 
>> You take care,
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> 
>> From: Harry Brown <mailto:wd8oep2464 at sbcglobal.net>  
>> 
>> To: ADA.Complaint at usdoj.gov 
>> 
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 5:09 PM
>> 
>> Subject: I'm filing an official complaint against Microsoft
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> August 19, 2010
>> 
>> To whom it may concern,
>> 
>> My name is Harry Brown, and I'm a blind man living at address was in the
>> official complaint, but not in this copy).  I'm filing a complaint against
>> Microsoft.
>> 
>> As you may know, Microsoft, is coming out with Windows phone 7, an operating
>> system for cell phones, and PDAs.  Right now, they're using Windows Mobile
>> 6.5.  which is not fully accessible, out of the box.  As to this date of
>> writing, they have never put speech on their phones.  Whereas Apple, has put
>> built in speech on their IPhones.
>> 
>> I request that the Justice department, give Microsoft an ultimatum.  They
>> either put a fully functioning built in screen reader on their windows phone
>> 7 operating system within the next year, or, they will be sued by the
>> justice department, or,  their Windows Mobile operating system department
>> will be shut down by the federal government.
>> 
>> This is blatent descrimination, and they have proven they don't care about
>> making their cell phone operating system fully accessible.  Now, what you
>> will hear from them is, "we can't do it, because we have no people on staff
>> with experience in screen reader implementation."
>> 
>> I will give you the name of a company whose employees Microsoft can hire,
>> that knows everything about screen readers for Windows mobile cell phones,
>> and how to make Microsoft's new upcoming operating system completely
>> accessible, for every new Windows Mobile cell phone, out of the box.
>> 
>> The company who Microsoft needs to hire people from is called Code Factory,
>> and their web site is
>> 
>> http://www.codefactory.es
>> 
>> Please follow up with me on this official complaint.
>> 
>> The blind of America will not put up any more, with being second class
>> citizens, by a company who doesn't care, and has never made it's computer
>> operating systems, or, it's cell phone operating systems, fully accessible,
>> right out of the box.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> Harry Brown
>> 
>> _____  
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Code Factory: Moving accessibility forward! (www.codefactory.es)
>> To view list archives, go to
>> http://list.codefactory.cat/mailman/private/codefactory.cat.mss_mailing
>> To post: Send message to mss_mailing at codefactory.cat
>> TO unsubscribe: Send blank email to mss_mailing-unsubscribe at codefactory.cat
>> To change subscription options and list password: GO to
>> http://list.codefactory.cat/mailman/listinfo/codefactory.cat.mss_mailing
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Code Factory: Moving accessibility forward! (www.codefactory.es)
>> To view list archives, go to http://list.codefactory.cat/mailman/private/codefactory.cat.mss_mailing
>> To post: Send message to mss_mailing at codefactory.cat
>> TO unsubscribe: Send blank email to mss_mailing-unsubscribe at codefactory.cat
>> To change subscription options and list password: GO to http://list.codefactory.cat/mailman/listinfo/codefactory.cat.mss_mailing
>> ______________________________________
>> ________
>> 
>> * My Axess is on Twitter!
>> http://www.twitter.com/MyAxess
>> 
>> * Manage your membership at:
>> http://www.myaxess.com/community.php
>> 
>> * For any issues, questions or feedback, send mail to:
>> chat-owner at myaxess.com
>> or
>> taylor at myaxess.com
> 
> 
> ______________________________________
> ________
> 
> * My Axess is on Twitter!
> http://www.twitter.com/MyAxess
> 
> * Manage your membership at:
> http://www.myaxess.com/community.php
> 
> * For any issues, questions or feedback, send mail to:
> chat-owner at myaxess.com
> or
> taylor at myaxess.com



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 05:10:28 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:10:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinFGStgPDrZAV-EKdJajQs+UHK9Qd7bSY2RGVMy@mail.gmail.com>
References: <78958.18866.qm@web113810.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><9E962DFF-C33C-401F-9883-AC149F627058@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinFGStgPDrZAV-EKdJajQs+UHK9Qd7bSY2RGVMy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A8BC2D52B2A40C3AF5A5C15A5C019DF@SonyPC>

The school is not looking over your shoulder to see what you have on the 
device, and besides, these devices are so specialized that I doubt a school 
administrator could discover your non school related files even if you left 
the note taker in front of them. Just remember to remove your files before 
returning the device. Don’t want to flaunt your rule braking.
The school also told me to only use my laptop for school related things, but 
if I check my facebook on it the world will not end.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?


Hi George:

I cagree 100 percent with everyone else.

Notetakers are very expensive. You should not have to get a econd one,
and it would be ridiculous trying to divide your personal and school
life around between two notetakers.

Kerri

On 8/19/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> I feel exactly the same way. Use the one you have for all your needs...!
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Steven Max-Faults wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Jorge,
>>
>> Throughout high school, the Board of Ed also gave me a
>> Braille Note. For the reasons you mentioned, I also found it very
>> convenient
>> for personal stuff as well. I recommend using the Braille Note from the
>> Board
>> of Ed for all your needs. I know it’s only supposed to be used for
>> school-related stuff, but I don’t think anyone would mind. Buying another
>> note
>> taker would be an unnecessary expense, and not to mention, it would be
>> really
>> annoying to have to carry around both, remembering to precisely divide
>> your
>> life into personal and school.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just my thoughts. How do others feel about this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Steven
>>
>> --- On Thu, 8/19/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 11:01 AM
>>
>> Hello list:
>> Just had a quick queestion.
>> So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm
>> using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
>> However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful,
>> as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
>> Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but
>> doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can
>> just flip the cover up and write something.
>>
>> Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?
>>
>>
>>
>> I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have
>> to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not
>> meant for personal stuff.
>>
>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/stevemax83%40yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 05:12:56 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:12:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <61068748FD974BE48A7A621A4E917ECA@Dezman>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus><AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
	<61068748FD974BE48A7A621A4E917ECA@Dezman>
Message-ID: <A2AEE6B06CCD434A810C0BD39217F937@SonyPC>

The Franklin Language Master is pretty effective; you can pick up a used one 
for short money.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dezman Jackson" <jackson.dezman at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> Jewel,
>
> If you navigate by heading after you've hit search, pressing the letter H 
> if you use jaws, that should get you to the results quicker.
>
> Best,
> Dezman
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
>
>> The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
>> reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
>> as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
>> definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
>> online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
>> advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
>> Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
>> low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
>> definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
>> This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
>> more important homework to get to.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed by a 
>>> colon.
>>> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>>
>>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>>> than the rest!
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>>
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
> 



From th404 at comcast.net  Fri Aug 20 17:59:22 2010
From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:59:22 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
Message-ID: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>

This fall, I will be taking an environmental science course at my local community college. There are two concerns I have, and I was wondering if anyone out there has taken this kind of course before, and how you may have addressed them.

1. I did the research about the textbook I need, and discovered that RFB&D has the previous eddition, but not the one my instructor is asking everyone to get. If you've been in this situation before, how have you addressed this issue?

2. Lab work. I know that there is going to be a lab in this course, and I am not willing to have it waved. If you've done lab work for a course like this, what have you done to make sure you're able to participate?

Thanks in advance for any advice you might have on these concerns.

From mjf68ster at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 18:54:24 2010
From: mjf68ster at gmail.com (Matthew Ford)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:54:24 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
In-Reply-To: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>
References: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinq4DvvYfcdbGTxqDxuFO=_byYfVCUQGGtviX3H@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, I am a graduate student majoring in rehab. counseling. I took courses as
an undergrad like this before. Most of my graduate courses have the same
issue as number one. For the first concern, I suggest talking to the
instructor to see if there are many differences in the two editions. My
environmental. science teacher gave me an older edition textbook and said to
use it and not waste the money buying the new one. If the teacher is
strongly believes there are differences that can result in not learning the
material,  then get vocational rehab. for the blind to purchase one for you
in the regular text. I would then ask for a reader from the disability
support office at the college. All colleges are required to have one. You
can also use assistive technology to help with reading related needs.

For the second issue, communication with teh lab instructor is essential. On
the first day, ask if you can receive assitance form another classmate or
individual to be your eyes. My group members workded hard to allow me to
fully participate in all my labs. The cordination was done by the instructor
though. The instructor would stay after class with me to discuss the lab and
anything I may have felt I did not get due to the lack of vision. Most of
the labs are not written with the blind in mind. It helps when you have an
instructor with an open mind and good ears to listen and accept the needs
when you communicate them to the instructor.

I hope these points helped and you have a successful semester.

Your friend in the NFB,

Matthew J. Ford

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:59 PM, Tina Hansen <th404 at comcast.net> wrote:

> This fall, I will be taking an environmental science course at my local
> community college. There are two concerns I have, and I was wondering if
> anyone out there has taken this kind of course before, and how you may have
> addressed them.
>
> 1. I did the research about the textbook I need, and discovered that RFB&D
> has the previous eddition, but not the one my instructor is asking everyone
> to get. If you've been in this situation before, how have you addressed this
> issue?
>
> 2. Lab work. I know that there is going to be a lab in this course, and I
> am not willing to have it waved. If you've done lab work for a course like
> this, what have you done to make sure you're able to participate?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice you might have on these concerns.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mjf68ster%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Matthew J. Ford

From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 19:24:55 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:24:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
References: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <F625541945444BCBA8AF7E8A0D7FC900@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Tina:
I'd talk to the professor to see if the previous edition is drastically 
different from the required version. Sometimes it might be wording 
differences or chapters are organized differently. Have you tried Bookshare 
or contacting the publisher to get the current version in an accessible 
format? If those options don't pan out you could scan the book yourself.
Keep in constant contact with the professor and use the office hours to get 
clarification for parts of the course that may be visual. For labs you could 
hire a reader who could help with-in class experiments. You'd tell them what 
to do and they could tell you the results.
Just my thoughts.

Anjelina
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:59 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course


> This fall, I will be taking an environmental science course at my local 
> community college. There are two concerns I have, and I was wondering if 
> anyone out there has taken this kind of course before, and how you may 
> have addressed them.
>
> 1. I did the research about the textbook I need, and discovered that RFB&D 
> has the previous eddition, but not the one my instructor is asking 
> everyone to get. If you've been in this situation before, how have you 
> addressed this issue?
>
> 2. Lab work. I know that there is going to be a lab in this course, and I 
> am not willing to have it waved. If you've done lab work for a course like 
> this, what have you done to make sure you're able to participate?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice you might have on these concerns.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Fri Aug 20 21:04:33 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:04:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
In-Reply-To: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>
References: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <940AAEF6A968484BA2B7239474E3034C@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Hello,

First, I took a Geography course last semester.  I think that counts as an 
environmental science course.  My main piece of advice is to be certain to 
meet with the instructor regularly outside of class to make certain you and 
she are on the same page.  You will need someone to create diagrams for you. 
If you do not have a reader, the college may be able to provide this person, 
or you may need to hire this person by placing an ad up at your college or 
through other means.  I used a drawing board I purchased from The Braille 
Bookstore, www.braillebookstore.com, on which I had my reader to create 
diagrams.  Unlike the raised line drawing kit, one can draw on regular paper 
with a regular pen.  Remember, it is your job to guide your reader.  Think 
of it as you being the employer and the reader being the employee.  Be 
certain to indicate that one must be consistent.  In other words, always 
label a diagram on its left side, or always cause water to be created with 
felt material, for instance.  I also purchased a talking globe from 
Independent Living Aids because I had to know Geography information about 
where certain continents were and so on.  It has a pen that one touches to 
it, and then it verbally announces the location or other information 
depending on how you have it set.  It can do population, geography, time, 
National Anthem, distance, and more.  I am going into teaching, and so I 
felt purchasing this globe would be good for my future classroom.  Remember 
that you can purchase tactile drawings of maps from the National Braille 
Press, and I had one of the United States and another one of the World that 
I found to be helpful.  In addition, the library has a Braille/tactile set 
that is very much more detailed your college mayor you may be able to 
borrow.  My school did that for me.  Also, I think you can purchase it.  I 
believe the individual who created it used aluminum foil and some other sort 
of stuff.  To me, it felt like thermoform, and some of its pages folded out 
to make the map larger.  Sorry I do not remember the name of it.  As far as 
creating diagrams, models and the like for this course and another science 
course, I used, with a reader, string, clay, Styrofome, tape, wikki sticks, 
a ball to create my own globe, other construction paper and fabrics of 
varying textures, creativity, verbal input from the instructor and other 
classmates, etc.  Do not hesitate to raise your hand and ask a question if 
you did not hear something, do not understand it, etc. because most likely, 
you are not only helping yourself.  Do not relax when it comes to insisting 
on placing string/tape or wikki sticks on a globe to create raised longitude 
and lattitude lines and other diagrams as the instructor may want to take 
the easy way out if he or she can do so.  When necessary, ask for diagrams 
to be provided so that they can be produced prior to class.  Ask for your 
reader to be present in the classroom so that he or she can creat on-the-fly 
tactile graphics using the above mentioned items.  In my class, for example, 
we used string and tape on a paper to make a topographical map.  In 
addition, the teacher produced a clay model of the topographical map.  In 
class, we cut this model appropriately because one must first draw the 
highest point, I think, and place this on the board where I, myself, drew 
around it using a regular pen.  Then, my reader created the outline using 
string, which I could feel before we moved on to cutting out the next 
highest piece.  Use a Braille labeler to label each section in a diagram, 
being creative and making up a key where the letter a represents 10 ft, if 
necessary.  Again, you must feel the model before you begin to cut it at all 
and continue by doing most of this work yourself so you will understand it. 
I believe we discovered that Styrofome would have been better to create the 
topographical map with because the fishing line or whatever it was we tried 
to cut with was difficult on the clay.  When we learned about the moon, the 
teacher had a Styrofome ball about the size of a tennis ball.  She created a 
sort of shell that covered half of the ball and that could be taken on and 
off.  I sat in a chair that rotated.  If I was facing the light, meaning I 
was facing the table, I was facing the sun.  The tape shell always faced 
away from me.  So if I was facing the sun, the back of the moon was 
completely covered.  If I rotated around to 3 o'clock, a different part or 
portion of the ball was in viewof the son because now the left side was 
visible, I think.  Anyway, you get the idea even if I am forgetting exactly 
what I was learning.  lol.   For a globe I made as a homework project, I 
purchased a round Styrofome ball in the kraft section at Walmart and other 
items.  If you need to draw, the drawing board or a raised line drawing kit 
will work.  Also, you can place a sheet of paper over cardboard and created 
a sort of raised line that one can feel as I did this for an art class, and 
it worked well.  There is a free program to draw graphics if your college 
has access to Duxbury and a Braille embosser.   The program is called 
QuickTack.  Many times if you ask your instructor and explain that you can 
only obtain the previous edition of the book, the instructor will be okay 
with it because not much changes from edition to edition.  If not, you can 
use a reader to record your book in audioformat or you can use Kurzweil 
software or other reading software to scan it into the computer.  One thing 
I like to do is to look up information on trusted Internet sites to help 
myself grasp concepts.  I am not ashamed to check out the sites for kids 
either because the words and concepts are broken down for them.  Perhaps, if 
you are a member of Bookshare, you can find a kid's science book about the 
type of environmental science you are studying.  When I say trusted, I mean 
a .edu or .gov site.  Well, I have probably given you too much info, and so 
I will leave off for now.  The main thing is creativity, communicating with 
your instructor and reader, and making certain that as much diagrams and 
models are available as possible prior to the class.  Don't forget that the 
college may already have some raised models of which they are not aware, and 
so use your creativity to determine this.  For example, if it were a biology 
course, they would have a skeleton you could feel.  In my class, there were 
models of volcanoes and such I could feel, even though they were not created 
for that purpose.  I'll paste the link for the QuickTack program below:
http://www.duxburysystems.com/product2.asp?product=QuickTac&level=free&action=up

Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:59 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course


> This fall, I will be taking an environmental science course at my local 
> community college. There are two concerns I have, and I was wondering if 
> anyone out there has taken this kind of course before, and how you may 
> have addressed them.
>
> 1. I did the research about the textbook I need, and discovered that RFB&D 
> has the previous eddition, but not the one my instructor is asking 
> everyone to get. If you've been in this situation before, how have you 
> addressed this issue?
>
> 2. Lab work. I know that there is going to be a lab in this course, and I 
> am not willing to have it waved. If you've done lab work for a course like 
> this, what have you done to make sure you're able to participate?
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice you might have on these concerns.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Fri Aug 20 21:05:50 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:05:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
In-Reply-To: <F625541945444BCBA8AF7E8A0D7FC900@D9P3ZND1>
References: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>
	<F625541945444BCBA8AF7E8A0D7FC900@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <B83F16AF-A10A-48DA-917E-8C6B83797FE3@gmail.com>

Hello,
I don't really know how your school works, but what I do is to buy the regular book at the bookstore and take it to the Adaptive Technology and Accessibility Center in my university, which puts it in accessible format for me. They always ask for the syllabus for the class, so they can know what I am going to need for each day. You should check if your school has an adaptive technology center like that. Mine works great and I really don't know what I would do without it.
On Aug 20, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Anjelina wrote:

> Hi Tina:
> I'd talk to the professor to see if the previous edition is drastically different from the required version. Sometimes it might be wording differences or chapters are organized differently. Have you tried Bookshare or contacting the publisher to get the current version in an accessible format? If those options don't pan out you could scan the book yourself.
> Keep in constant contact with the professor and use the office hours to get clarification for parts of the course that may be visual. For labs you could hire a reader who could help with-in class experiments. You'd tell them what to do and they could tell you the results.
> Just my thoughts.
> 
> Anjelina
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:59 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
> 
> 
>> This fall, I will be taking an environmental science course at my local community college. There are two concerns I have, and I was wondering if anyone out there has taken this kind of course before, and how you may have addressed them.
>> 
>> 1. I did the research about the textbook I need, and discovered that RFB&D has the previous eddition, but not the one my instructor is asking everyone to get. If you've been in this situation before, how have you addressed this issue?
>> 
>> 2. Lab work. I know that there is going to be a lab in this course, and I am not willing to have it waved. If you've done lab work for a course like this, what have you done to make sure you're able to participate?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance for any advice you might have on these concerns.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net  Fri Aug 20 22:05:42 2010
From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:05:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
Message-ID: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN>

As a student who successfully graduated from college I think that you Tina should try to avoid all classes with visual elements.  Depending on how much time and energy your reader has to do this tactile work is probably minimal at best.  Do as much writing work as possible if the reader can't be in your class room with you.  What is your major Tina?  I was a broadcast journalism major myself.

From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Aug 21 02:28:32 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:28:32 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] KNFB-Reader for Sale
Message-ID: <auto-000165296948@mailfront2.g2host.com>


>From: "Don & June Galloway" <dnj.galloway at rcn.com>
>To: <dandrews at visi.com>
>Subject: listing items
>
>David,
>
>Would you please list an item for me to sell:
>
>New; never used, KNFB reader 82; $1300.
>
>I can be reached via e-mail 2 
><mailto:dnj.galloway at starpower.net>dnj.galloway at starpower.net or 
>phone 202 882-3816.
>
>Thank you.
>Don Galloway

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920

From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:07:20 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:07:20 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
In-Reply-To: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN>
References: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=+Ucgsq3h919DVzaLdWEcM1qn-04ba4gG-AueK@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorry, but I have to be honest, that sounds down right unrealistic. It
may work for some majors, but for the vast majority of fields, you simply
cannot avoid classes with visual elements, and it is this kind of thinking
that causes a lot of blind students to not even consider careers in, for
example, STEM fields. Anyway, if you avoid facing situations where you'll
have to find a way to deal with visual elements all through college, when
will you get the hang of dealing with them? When you're a working adult who,
despite ADA compliance at work, still has to find a way to read
non-electronic mail, materials that simply can't be made accessible in a
timely enough manner, etc? I can say from esperience that working with a
reader is a pain in the nect, especially for special circumstances like
these, but while striving to get the accommodations you need can be
tiresome, better you do it now and get good at doing it than limit your
opportunities as a blind individual to save yourself the hassle.

Best of luck. i really hope everything works out for you.

-Jamie

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Brian Hatgelakas <
brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:

> As a student who successfully graduated from college I think that you Tina
> should try to avoid all classes with visual elements.  Depending on how much
> time and energy your reader has to do this tactile work is probably minimal
> at best.  Do as much writing work as possible if the reader can't be in your
> class room with you.  What is your major Tina?  I was a broadcast journalism
> major myself.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>

From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:11:06 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:11:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=+Ucgsq3h919DVzaLdWEcM1qn-04ba4gG-AueK@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<AANLkTi=+Ucgsq3h919DVzaLdWEcM1qn-04ba4gG-AueK@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS7133EE40FD26BAFBFDE078B800@phx.gbl>

I partially agree with you but there are some courses that  iwould disagree 
such as a course that deals with complete visual interpretation  unless your 
taking a arts major.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:07 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble

> I'm sorry, but I have to be honest, that sounds down right unrealistic. It
> may work for some majors, but for the vast majority of fields, you simply
> cannot avoid classes with visual elements, and it is this kind of thinking
> that causes a lot of blind students to not even consider careers in, for
> example, STEM fields. Anyway, if you avoid facing situations where you'll
> have to find a way to deal with visual elements all through college, when
> will you get the hang of dealing with them? When you're a working adult 
> who,
> despite ADA compliance at work, still has to find a way to read
> non-electronic mail, materials that simply can't be made accessible in a
> timely enough manner, etc? I can say from esperience that working with a
> reader is a pain in the nect, especially for special circumstances like
> these, but while striving to get the accommodations you need can be
> tiresome, better you do it now and get good at doing it than limit your
> opportunities as a blind individual to save yourself the hassle.
>
> Best of luck. i really hope everything works out for you.
>
> -Jamie
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Brian Hatgelakas <
> brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> As a student who successfully graduated from college I think that you 
>> Tina
>> should try to avoid all classes with visual elements.  Depending on how 
>> much
>> time and energy your reader has to do this tactile work is probably 
>> minimal
>> at best.  Do as much writing work as possible if the reader can't be in 
>> your
>> class room with you.  What is your major Tina?  I was a broadcast 
>> journalism
>> major myself.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From th404 at comcast.net  Sat Aug 21 03:45:02 2010
From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:45:02 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom
Message-ID: <15424AC2F9C447D3AF99DC54EBE9BB5B@userbafffee1fc>

I know that there has been a great deal of discussion on this list in the past about the use of recording media in the classroom to record lectures. I also am aware that some people use either a laptop, Braille note taker, or slate and stylus to do notes. I, for one will not hire a live note taker, because to me, it just doesn't seem right.

Anyway, I'd be interested in your thoughts about the use of digital voice recorder units during the lectures. If you've used them, what have you done to get the most out of the lectures? Do you think it's a good idea to use this tool alone or in combination with another note taking tool?

Also, I have access to more than one unit with recording abilities: the Victor Reader Stream, the Book Port Plus, and the Book Sense. I also have a commercial voice recorder from Sony, but since the others are able to record mp3 files directly, I don't see the need to use that one unless I have no other option.

Which units have others found works best in the lecture setting? Also, if anyone out there has other thoughts on how to use these tools effectively, I'm all ears. Thanks.

From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:51:24 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:51:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS7133EE40FD26BAFBFDE078B800@phx.gbl>
References: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<AANLkTi=+Ucgsq3h919DVzaLdWEcM1qn-04ba4gG-AueK@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY130-DS7133EE40FD26BAFBFDE078B800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSvuJd4vXepei3=wtFXQx-wNS4CnavwSnsW-Eq@mail.gmail.com>

Well certainly. I would certainly advise against taking a figure drawing
course if you have absolutely no vision and no sound idea of how you're
going to function in the course. But the vast majority of courses with
visual elements cannot be avoided without unreasonably limiting one's
opportunities.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com>wrote:

> I partially agree with you but there are some courses that  iwould disagree
> such as a course that deals with complete visual interpretation  unless your
> taking a arts major.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:07 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
>
>  I'm sorry, but I have to be honest, that sounds down right unrealistic. It
>> may work for some majors, but for the vast majority of fields, you simply
>> cannot avoid classes with visual elements, and it is this kind of thinking
>> that causes a lot of blind students to not even consider careers in, for
>> example, STEM fields. Anyway, if you avoid facing situations where you'll
>> have to find a way to deal with visual elements all through college, when
>> will you get the hang of dealing with them? When you're a working adult
>> who,
>> despite ADA compliance at work, still has to find a way to read
>> non-electronic mail, materials that simply can't be made accessible in a
>> timely enough manner, etc? I can say from esperience that working with a
>> reader is a pain in the nect, especially for special circumstances like
>> these, but while striving to get the accommodations you need can be
>> tiresome, better you do it now and get good at doing it than limit your
>> opportunities as a blind individual to save yourself the hassle.
>>
>> Best of luck. i really hope everything works out for you.
>>
>> -Jamie
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Brian Hatgelakas <
>> brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>  As a student who successfully graduated from college I think that you
>>> Tina
>>> should try to avoid all classes with visual elements.  Depending on how
>>> much
>>> time and energy your reader has to do this tactile work is probably
>>> minimal
>>> at best.  Do as much writing work as possible if the reader can't be in
>>> your
>>> class room with you.  What is your major Tina?  I was a broadcast
>>> journalism
>>> major myself.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>

From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:55:19 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:55:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom
In-Reply-To: <15424AC2F9C447D3AF99DC54EBE9BB5B@userbafffee1fc>
References: <15424AC2F9C447D3AF99DC54EBE9BB5B@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS17BE7A93BBC1E38E1F7A3B8B800@phx.gbl>



I love recording classes.  It makes it so much easyer to pay attention and 
partisapate.  That way you can listen and take notes later which is  a lot 
easyer than listening and taking notes while the professor is talking . 
I've always missed some important key notes by taking notes the first time. 
I personally waited to take all notes so I could consintrate and answer 
questions that were up for discussion as a class.
Just my thoughts I'm sure others have other things to say or add to this or 
different opinions.
Rob Blachowicz

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:45 PM
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom

> I know that there has been a great deal of discussion on this list in the 
> past about the use of recording media in the classroom to record lectures. 
> I also am aware that some people use either a laptop, Braille note taker, 
> or slate and stylus to do notes. I, for one will not hire a live note 
> taker, because to me, it just doesn't seem right.
>
> Anyway, I'd be interested in your thoughts about the use of digital voice 
> recorder units during the lectures. If you've used them, what have you 
> done to get the most out of the lectures? Do you think it's a good idea to 
> use this tool alone or in combination with another note taking tool?
>
> Also, I have access to more than one unit with recording abilities: the 
> Victor Reader Stream, the Book Port Plus, and the Book Sense. I also have 
> a commercial voice recorder from Sony, but since the others are able to 
> record mp3 files directly, I don't see the need to use that one unless I 
> have no other option.
>
> Which units have others found works best in the lecture setting? Also, if 
> anyone out there has other thoughts on how to use these tools effectively, 
> I'm all ears. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:56:31 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:56:31 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B46C134A0F4747CFADA71D3B09CDC4C9@Netbook>

Joy and all!

http://www.wordreference.com! It's the bomb! You do have to scroll down past 
a lot of other languages' dictionaries, but this is an amazing source! Do 
enjoy!

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 07:30
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com 



From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:57:05 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:57:05 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
	<F6272579-4055-463C-B42A-6E5A0A582D03@mac.com>
Message-ID: <5839DE519E264303B8AB562A89B1996D@Netbook>

www.m-w.com

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 07:34
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> Google the Free Online Marrium Webster dictionarry.
> I'm not sure of the site, but once you get there it should be easy to get 
> the deffenitions.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Jewel S. wrote:
>
>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>> than the rest!
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> -- 
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:57:52 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:57:52 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSvuJd4vXepei3=wtFXQx-wNS4CnavwSnsW-Eq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN><AANLkTi=+Ucgsq3h919DVzaLdWEcM1qn-04ba4gG-AueK@mail.gmail.com><BAY130-DS7133EE40FD26BAFBFDE078B800@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTikSvuJd4vXepei3=wtFXQx-wNS4CnavwSnsW-Eq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS16D617F35A6D5A7496E4278B800@phx.gbl>

What I was refering to  was a class I had to take called understanding and 
visualizing the arts and what it was was a text based class to analize 
colors and things.  Their claim was that a blind person should still know 
the colors even if they are blind.  Now, how am I suppose to know what one 
of the colors are that aren't a regular color like teal?  Maybe you guys 
would disagree but I'm so glad I swhiched colleges after that for other 
reasons.
Rob
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:51 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble

> Well certainly. I would certainly advise against taking a figure drawing
> course if you have absolutely no vision and no sound idea of how you're
> going to function in the course. But the vast majority of courses with
> visual elements cannot be avoided without unreasonably limiting one's
> opportunities.
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Rob Blachowicz 
> <rob_blach at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I partially agree with you but there are some courses that  iwould 
>> disagree
>> such as a course that deals with complete visual interpretation  unless 
>> your
>> taking a arts major.
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:07 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
>>
>>  I'm sorry, but I have to be honest, that sounds down right unrealistic. 
>> It
>>> may work for some majors, but for the vast majority of fields, you 
>>> simply
>>> cannot avoid classes with visual elements, and it is this kind of 
>>> thinking
>>> that causes a lot of blind students to not even consider careers in, for
>>> example, STEM fields. Anyway, if you avoid facing situations where 
>>> you'll
>>> have to find a way to deal with visual elements all through college, 
>>> when
>>> will you get the hang of dealing with them? When you're a working adult
>>> who,
>>> despite ADA compliance at work, still has to find a way to read
>>> non-electronic mail, materials that simply can't be made accessible in a
>>> timely enough manner, etc? I can say from esperience that working with a
>>> reader is a pain in the nect, especially for special circumstances like
>>> these, but while striving to get the accommodations you need can be
>>> tiresome, better you do it now and get good at doing it than limit your
>>> opportunities as a blind individual to save yourself the hassle.
>>>
>>> Best of luck. i really hope everything works out for you.
>>>
>>> -Jamie
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Brian Hatgelakas <
>>> brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>  As a student who successfully graduated from college I think that you
>>>> Tina
>>>> should try to avoid all classes with visual elements.  Depending on how
>>>> much
>>>> time and energy your reader has to do this tactile work is probably
>>>> minimal
>>>> at best.  Do as much writing work as possible if the reader can't be in
>>>> your
>>>> class room with you.  What is your major Tina?  I was a broadcast
>>>> journalism
>>>> major myself.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 


From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 03:59:02 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:59:02 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
	<AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41883C0D5625477795F69C1DB8EC3816@Netbook>

Jewel,

I'm sorry that I called you Joy earlier but:

Use your heading commands (h, shift+h, insert+f6) to try to get around the 
ads. Also, do a find on the page with ctrl+f to find the word that you just 
searched. You can get around the bullcrap by searching for that same word.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 08:14
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
> reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
> as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
> definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
> online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
> advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
> Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
> low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
> definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
> This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
> more important homework to get to.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed by a colon.
>> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>
>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>> than the rest!
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com 



From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 04:00:50 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:00:50 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus><AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com><5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>
	<A4CCC283-E4C0-4FD8-8B9A-56AA21328EDA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <23719FDEE2F74F3981BA284DBB6A241B@Netbook>

I could start a whole thread on Wikipedia, but I tell you! For linguistical 
information, it is a treasure trove! Obviously, use the references that are 
provided. That's how to get around the Wikipedia nonsense.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 09:13
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> Joe:
> I'm not one to hate on Wikipedia, but I am aware that, at least in NY, 
> starting in 9th grade you can be expelled for using it.
>
> So, wouldn't be surprised if colleges banned it too.
>
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:56 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>> I'll look around, see if I can find a plain text dictionary.  I don't 
>> know
>> if Dictionary.com has a mobile interface, but that might be a possible
>> solution.  Also, not to add to your technology pile, but the Franklin
>> Language Master is an excellent tool.  Mine broke a few years back, and I
>> still have it on my list of things to get.  It's a dictionary and then 
>> some
>> and talks out of the box, though its price is a little beyond what one 
>> would
>> pay for a hardcopy at a bookstore, $400 or so.  Still, if you're planning 
>> on
>> doing professional writing in your future, which gathering from your 
>> posts
>> on Stylist this would appear to be the case, it would seem like something 
>> to
>> add to your list of equipment for your counselor.  And, come on!  Don't 
>> hate
>> on Wikipedia!  It's helped me make sense out of many a complicated 
>> concepts!
>> (grin)
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jewel S. [mailto:herekittykat2 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
>> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students
>> mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>
>> The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
>> reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
>> as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
>> definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
>> online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
>> advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
>> Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
>> low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
>> definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
>> This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
>> more important homework to get to.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed
>> by a colon.
>>> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>> their sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>>
>>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>>> than the rest!
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>>
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
>> ykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 04:02:58 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:02:58 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom
In-Reply-To: <15424AC2F9C447D3AF99DC54EBE9BB5B@userbafffee1fc>
References: <15424AC2F9C447D3AF99DC54EBE9BB5B@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <64C5654697324434848BD5E11F7F8EE2@Rufus>

1. Ask the professor for their permission just as a general courtesy.

2. Make sure the recording device will not be close enough to your notetaker
to pick up the clatter of your typing unless the keyboard on the notetaker
is quiet.  For this reason I would not use the same device to take notes and
record unless you are using a Braille Sense, which I dare say is most quiet
of all the notetakers for the blind out there.

3. Make use of indicator tones, if available, to segment the recording to
keep track of changing topics.

4. If you are recording, only jot down key points.  Later you can fill in
the gaps, but allow yourself to fully concentrate and absorb what's being
discussed.  It sounds like an elementary point, but I know people, namely
myself, who try to pull off a stenographic record.

I use an Olympus digital recorder, small and excellent sound quality for
lecture and conference environments.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina Hansen
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:45 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom

I know that there has been a great deal of discussion on this 
list in the past about the use of recording media in the 
classroom to record lectures. I also am aware that some people 
use either a laptop, Braille note taker, or slate and stylus to 
do notes. I, for one will not hire a live note taker, because 
to me, it just doesn't seem right.

Anyway, I'd be interested in your thoughts about the use of 
digital voice recorder units during the lectures. If you've 
used them, what have you done to get the most out of the 
lectures? Do you think it's a good idea to use this tool alone 
or in combination with another note taking tool?

Also, I have access to more than one unit with recording 
abilities: the Victor Reader Stream, the Book Port Plus, and 
the Book Sense. I also have a commercial voice recorder from 
Sony, but since the others are able to record mp3 files 
directly, I don't see the need to use that one unless I have no 
other option.

Which units have others found works best in the lecture 
setting? Also, if anyone out there has other thoughts on how to 
use these tools effectively, I'm all ears. Thanks.
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 04:03:49 2010
From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:03:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
Message-ID: <28A89551F6774CA4A3732315005A5D18@OwnerPC>

I like your idea.  I am a writer myself, and struggle with the same problem 
concerning the blind in books.  I don't want to fall in to a stereotype, but 
you are rite when you say it would help educate people.  It is true that 
blind individuals are either overly romanticized or seriously degraded, no 
one seems to find that reality.  I think it is a good idea to put a blind 
character in your book, but to dissuade from stereotypes I guess I would 
make it a secondary character.  That however depends on what angle your 
going for.  Since you said you wanted the person to go blind later in life 
and it is a rival gang theme, perhaps the individual could get shot.  I have 
a few friends who went blind that way all later in life.  I myself can't 
attest to losing my vision quickly as I was young when I lost a large chunk 
and it is now a gradual decline however the friends I know who went through 
it in a "now I see, now I don't" faction, told me a bit of what they went 
through.  Of course it was different for each individual, most agree that 
the first emotion was: helplessness, followed by denial, then sadness, then 
most prominently anger, and then for the strong acceptance, and for the week 
back to denial.  I don't mean to be harsh but I have friends that took both 
paths.  I think if your story has a sudden blindness it is important to 
cover all this, but if your trying to educate the reader I would pick the 
stronger of the two characters, as one negative takes ten positives to 
remedy.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:42 PM
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character

> Hello,
>
> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to 
> quit
> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head for
> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that it
> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more 
> than
> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>
> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind characters
> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed.  They're
> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can 
> either
> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of my
> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback of
> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of 
> my
> ramblings, right?
>
> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character should 
> be
> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this 
> person
> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience 
> the
> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule 
> out
> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a balanced
> prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic reactions 
> in
> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to 
> be
> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, I'd
> like to know this as well.
>
> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation in
> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously 
> shared
> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel free 
> to
> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question so
> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>
> Joe
>
> ***
>
> Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter 
> would
> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his 
> e-mail
> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the kind
> Christian and his family could do without.
> They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been 
> right
> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a total
> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
> encounter.
> On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of them
> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out 
> the
> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising 
> plot.
> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids 
> who
> would have already forgotten what they learned.
> Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish 
> state
> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice Christian
> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
> "Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
> Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British accent
> emanating from it.
> "I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
> The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes riveted
> to the machine.
> "Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the phone.
> This is most urgent."
> Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it 
> was
> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
> collected.
> "Hello," he croaked.
> "Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
> genuinely relieved.
> "Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
> "Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
> "We are not friends," Christian countered.
> "So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
> "You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
> "Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
> let me get to the purpose of my call."
> Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far preferable 
> to
> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
> "One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
> "I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
> whisper.
> "I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
> "I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
> "You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity. 
> No
> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
> "I was told I could--"
> "You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend 
> your
> allegiance never existed?"
> Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son, 
> Aaron,
> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a newborn
> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had 
> felt
> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could just
> get away?
> "One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
> "I beg your pardon?"
> "A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
> Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin to
> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, well,
> random!
> "What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
> Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
> eighteen years?"
> After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
> "Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy to
> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
> something?"
> "I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier 
> brothers
> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
> "I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
> "Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will 
> be
> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
> "And if I refuse?"
> "Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
> touch."
> The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in 
> his
> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The nature
> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed with
> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered how
> long they had been monitoring his family.
>
> ***
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com
> 


From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 04:12:50 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:12:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS16D617F35A6D5A7496E4278B800@phx.gbl>
References: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<AANLkTi=+Ucgsq3h919DVzaLdWEcM1qn-04ba4gG-AueK@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY130-DS7133EE40FD26BAFBFDE078B800@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTikSvuJd4vXepei3=wtFXQx-wNS4CnavwSnsW-Eq@mail.gmail.com>
	<BAY130-DS16D617F35A6D5A7496E4278B800@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin7S-yBX5E8yPCT-i7V=ZF7xKdJzf+Vh-N+QZcT@mail.gmail.com>

Was this a required class? I know Humanities/Fine Arts is often an undergrad
requirement, but there are usually a number of nonvisual ways of fulfilling
this requirement.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com>wrote:

> What I was refering to  was a class I had to take called understanding and
> visualizing the arts and what it was was a text based class to analize
> colors and things.  Their claim was that a blind person should still know
> the colors even if they are blind.  Now, how am I suppose to know what one
> of the colors are that aren't a regular color like teal?  Maybe you guys
> would disagree but I'm so glad I swhiched colleges after that for other
> reasons.
> Rob
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:51 PM
>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
>
>  Well certainly. I would certainly advise against taking a figure drawing
>> course if you have absolutely no vision and no sound idea of how you're
>> going to function in the course. But the vast majority of courses with
>> visual elements cannot be avoided without unreasonably limiting one's
>> opportunities.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  I partially agree with you but there are some courses that  iwould
>>> disagree
>>> such as a course that deals with complete visual interpretation  unless
>>> your
>>> taking a arts major.
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:07 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
>>>
>>>  I'm sorry, but I have to be honest, that sounds down right unrealistic.
>>> It
>>>
>>>> may work for some majors, but for the vast majority of fields, you
>>>> simply
>>>> cannot avoid classes with visual elements, and it is this kind of
>>>> thinking
>>>> that causes a lot of blind students to not even consider careers in, for
>>>> example, STEM fields. Anyway, if you avoid facing situations where
>>>> you'll
>>>> have to find a way to deal with visual elements all through college,
>>>> when
>>>> will you get the hang of dealing with them? When you're a working adult
>>>> who,
>>>> despite ADA compliance at work, still has to find a way to read
>>>> non-electronic mail, materials that simply can't be made accessible in a
>>>> timely enough manner, etc? I can say from esperience that working with a
>>>> reader is a pain in the nect, especially for special circumstances like
>>>> these, but while striving to get the accommodations you need can be
>>>> tiresome, better you do it now and get good at doing it than limit your
>>>> opportunities as a blind individual to save yourself the hassle.
>>>>
>>>> Best of luck. i really hope everything works out for you.
>>>>
>>>> -Jamie
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Brian Hatgelakas <
>>>> brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  As a student who successfully graduated from college I think that you
>>>>
>>>>> Tina
>>>>> should try to avoid all classes with visual elements.  Depending on how
>>>>> much
>>>>> time and energy your reader has to do this tactile work is probably
>>>>> minimal
>>>>> at best.  Do as much writing work as possible if the reader can't be in
>>>>> your
>>>>> class room with you.  What is your major Tina?  I was a broadcast
>>>>> journalism
>>>>> major myself.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>

From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sat Aug 21 04:18:26 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:18:26 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin7S-yBX5E8yPCT-i7V=ZF7xKdJzf+Vh-N+QZcT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001401cb40b3$d6629660$9560c747@BRIAN><AANLkTi=+Ucgsq3h919DVzaLdWEcM1qn-04ba4gG-AueK@mail.gmail.com><BAY130-DS7133EE40FD26BAFBFDE078B800@phx.gbl><AANLkTikSvuJd4vXepei3=wtFXQx-wNS4CnavwSnsW-Eq@mail.gmail.com><BAY130-DS16D617F35A6D5A7496E4278B800@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTin7S-yBX5E8yPCT-i7V=ZF7xKdJzf+Vh-N+QZcT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS1CD3A645D9AD9EA6F9E088B800@phx.gbl>


Yes it was and I did do it but dropped it and luckally I avoided it since it 
is not a requirement by the SUNY system but was by Florida.
Rob

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:12 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble

> Was this a required class? I know Humanities/Fine Arts is often an 
> undergrad
> requirement, but there are usually a number of nonvisual ways of 
> fulfilling
> this requirement.
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Rob Blachowicz 
> <rob_blach at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>> What I was refering to  was a class I had to take called understanding 
>> and
>> visualizing the arts and what it was was a text based class to analize
>> colors and things.  Their claim was that a blind person should still know
>> the colors even if they are blind.  Now, how am I suppose to know what 
>> one
>> of the colors are that aren't a regular color like teal?  Maybe you guys
>> would disagree but I'm so glad I swhiched colleges after that for other
>> reasons.
>> Rob
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:51 PM
>>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
>>
>>  Well certainly. I would certainly advise against taking a figure drawing
>>> course if you have absolutely no vision and no sound idea of how you're
>>> going to function in the course. But the vast majority of courses with
>>> visual elements cannot be avoided without unreasonably limiting one's
>>> opportunities.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 11:11 PM, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>  I partially agree with you but there are some courses that  iwould
>>>> disagree
>>>> such as a course that deals with complete visual interpretation  unless
>>>> your
>>>> taking a arts major.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> From: "Jamie Principato" <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:07 PM
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why go through all of that trouble
>>>>
>>>>  I'm sorry, but I have to be honest, that sounds down right 
>>>> unrealistic.
>>>> It
>>>>
>>>>> may work for some majors, but for the vast majority of fields, you
>>>>> simply
>>>>> cannot avoid classes with visual elements, and it is this kind of
>>>>> thinking
>>>>> that causes a lot of blind students to not even consider careers in, 
>>>>> for
>>>>> example, STEM fields. Anyway, if you avoid facing situations where
>>>>> you'll
>>>>> have to find a way to deal with visual elements all through college,
>>>>> when
>>>>> will you get the hang of dealing with them? When you're a working 
>>>>> adult
>>>>> who,
>>>>> despite ADA compliance at work, still has to find a way to read
>>>>> non-electronic mail, materials that simply can't be made accessible in 
>>>>> a
>>>>> timely enough manner, etc? I can say from esperience that working with 
>>>>> a
>>>>> reader is a pain in the nect, especially for special circumstances 
>>>>> like
>>>>> these, but while striving to get the accommodations you need can be
>>>>> tiresome, better you do it now and get good at doing it than limit 
>>>>> your
>>>>> opportunities as a blind individual to save yourself the hassle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best of luck. i really hope everything works out for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Jamie
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Brian Hatgelakas <
>>>>> brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  As a student who successfully graduated from college I think that you
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tina
>>>>>> should try to avoid all classes with visual elements.  Depending on 
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> time and energy your reader has to do this tactile work is probably
>>>>>> minimal
>>>>>> at best.  Do as much writing work as possible if the reader can't be 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> class room with you.  What is your major Tina?  I was a broadcast
>>>>>> journalism
>>>>>> major myself.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Aug 21 04:56:48 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:56:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
Message-ID: <20100821045648.5957.86988@web2>

Joe,

If you're looking for a good example of how blindness could be 
positively and realistically portrayed in a novel, check out the 
children's book entitled A GIRL'S BEST FRIEND. It's about a pre-teen 
girl whose dog falls ill and needs medication that she decides to raise 
money for by working. While blindness is one of the issues she faces 
(dealing with teachers and the like) it doesn't take center stage in 
the way that blindness tends to in literature.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> I like your idea.  I am a writer myself, and struggle with the same problem
> concerning the blind in books.  I don't want to fall in to a stereotype, but
> you are rite when you say it would help educate people.  It is true that
> blind individuals are either overly romanticized or seriously degraded, no
> one seems to find that reality.  I think it is a good idea to put a blind
> character in your book, but to dissuade from stereotypes I guess I would
> make it a secondary character.  That however depends on what angle your
> going for.  Since you said you wanted the person to go blind later in life
> and it is a rival gang theme, perhaps the individual could get shot.  I have
> a few friends who went blind that way all later in life.  I myself can't
> attest to losing my vision quickly as I was young when I lost a large chunk
> and it is now a gradual decline however the friends I know who went through
> it in a "now I see, now I don't" faction, told me a bit of what they went
> through.  Of course it was different for each individual, most agree that
> the first emotion was: helplessness, followed by denial, then sadness, then
> most prominently anger, and then for the strong acceptance, and for the week
> back to denial.  I don't mean to be harsh but I have friends that took both
> paths.  I think if your story has a sudden blindness it is important to
> cover all this, but if your trying to educate the reader I would pick the
> stronger of the two characters, as one negative takes ten positives to
> remedy.

> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:42 PM
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character

>> Hello,

>> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to
>> quit
>> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head for
>> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that it
>> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more
>> than
>> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
>> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...

>> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind characters
>> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed.  They're
>> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
>> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can
>> either
>> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of my
>> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback of
>> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
>> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of
>> my
>> ramblings, right?

>> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character should
>> be
>> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this
>> person
>> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
>> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience
>> the
>> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule
>> out
>> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
>> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a balanced
>> prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic reactions
>> in
>> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
>> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to
>> be
>> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
>> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, I'd
>> like to know this as well.

>> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
>> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation in
>> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously
>> shared
>> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel free
>> to
>> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question so
>> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
>> (grin)  Thanks in advance.

>> Joe

>> ***

>> Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
>> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter
>> would
>> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his
>> e-mail
>> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
>> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
>> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the kind
>> Christian and his family could do without.
>> They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
>> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been
>> right
>> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a total
>> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
>> encounter.
>> On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
>> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of them
>> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out
>> the
>> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising
>> plot.
>> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
>> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids
>> who
>> would have already forgotten what they learned.
>> Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
>> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish
>> state
>> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
>> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice Christian
>> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
>> "Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
>> Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
>> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British accent
>> emanating from it.
>> "I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
>> The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
>> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes riveted
>> to the machine.
>> "Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
>> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the phone.
>> This is most urgent."
>> Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
>> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
>> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it
>> was
>> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
>> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
>> collected.
>> "Hello," he croaked.
>> "Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
>> genuinely relieved.
>> "Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
>> "Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
>> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
>> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
>> "We are not friends," Christian countered.
>> "So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
>> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
>> "You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
>> "Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
>> let me get to the purpose of my call."
>> Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
>> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far preferable
>> to
>> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
>> "One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
>> "I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
>> whisper.
>> "I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
>> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
>> "I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
>> "You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
>> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity.
>> No
>> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
>> "I was told I could--"
>> "You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
>> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend
>> your
>> allegiance never existed?"
>> Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
>> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son,
>> Aaron,
>> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a newborn
>> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had
>> felt
>> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
>> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
>> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could just
>> get away?
>> "One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
>> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
>> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
>> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
>> "I beg your pardon?"
>> "A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
>> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
>> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
>> Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
>> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
>> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin to
>> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, well,
>> random!
>> "What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
>> Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
>> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
>> eighteen years?"
>> After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
>> "Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
>> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy to
>> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
>> something?"
>> "I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
>> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
>> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier
>> brothers
>> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
>> "I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
>> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
>> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
>> "Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
>> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will
>> be
>> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
>> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
>> "And if I refuse?"
>> "Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
>> touch."
>> The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
>> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in
>> his
>> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The nature
>> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
>> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed with
>> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered how
>> long they had been monitoring his family.

>> ***

>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing


>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com


> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 06:15:43 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:15:43 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
Message-ID: <F1422E479D22453CAF66A79459BE3C49@MarcPC>

Joe,

I commend you for your ambition.  I'm sure it's a daunting task.  I've 
occasionally considered creative writing, particularly when an interesting 
idea for a story strikes me, but I've never been motivated enough to start, 
let alone finish.  The few ideas I've had usually did involve blind 
characters, and I think that's fine.  Someone somewhere must have once said, 
write about what you know.

I also think the fact that there aren't many good portrayals of blind 
people, and by good I mean realistic and genuine, is all the more reason for 
you to write one.

I think it's okay, and even necessary, to present the very real struggles 
that anyone losing his or her sight rapidly would inevitably face.  My only 
concern is that readers may fail to see this as part of an adjustment phase, 
that is, unless you somehow managed to make this clear in the book.

I can't resist a couple of comments on the teaser, for whatever they're 
worth.  It's very attention grabbing.  I'm certainly interested.  I was 
distracted, though, twice.  First, there is the name of the character, 
Christian Slater.  I assume he was intentionally named after the actor, or 
perhaps you've never heard of him, but he is fairly well known, and I think, 
at some point, there has to be some reference to his sharing the name of a 
Hollywood playboy, some sort of comment on the coincidence.  Secondly, 
there's the answering machine.  Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I don't 
think anyone uses those anymore.  Besides a couple of people, usually older 
and usually not very tech savvy, I can't think of too many people who use 
them.  I see this all the time in movies and television shows, and it tends 
to strike me as sort of funny.  It' sets up an interesting tension, in that 
the character can listen to the message as it is recording and then 
interrupt it, so I understand why it's used as often as it is, but it just 
seems to completely overlook changes in telecommunications technology.  I 
mean, unless you are using it just as a device without regard to its 
authenticity, then there must be a reason why he is still using an answering 
machine in the age of voice mail.  Maybe it says something about the kind of 
person he is that he still uses one.  Maybe explaining why he still has one 
will give the reader some insight into the character.

I hope you do finish the novel, and I wish you nothing but success with it.

Cheers,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character


> Hello,
>
> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to 
> quit
> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head for
> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that it
> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more 
> than
> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>
> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind characters
> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed.  They're
> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can 
> either
> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of my
> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback of
> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of 
> my
> ramblings, right?
>
> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character should 
> be
> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this 
> person
> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience 
> the
> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule 
> out
> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a balanced
> prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic reactions 
> in
> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to 
> be
> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, I'd
> like to know this as well.
>
> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation in
> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously 
> shared
> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel free 
> to
> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question so
> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>
> Joe
>
> ***
>
> Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter 
> would
> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his 
> e-mail
> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the kind
> Christian and his family could do without.
> They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been 
> right
> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a total
> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
> encounter.
> On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of them
> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out 
> the
> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising 
> plot.
> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids 
> who
> would have already forgotten what they learned.
> Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish 
> state
> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice Christian
> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
> "Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
> Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British accent
> emanating from it.
> "I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
> The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes riveted
> to the machine.
> "Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the phone.
> This is most urgent."
> Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it 
> was
> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
> collected.
> "Hello," he croaked.
> "Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
> genuinely relieved.
> "Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
> "Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
> "We are not friends," Christian countered.
> "So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
> "You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
> "Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
> let me get to the purpose of my call."
> Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far preferable 
> to
> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
> "One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
> "I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
> whisper.
> "I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
> "I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
> "You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity. 
> No
> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
> "I was told I could--"
> "You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend 
> your
> allegiance never existed?"
> Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son, 
> Aaron,
> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a newborn
> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had 
> felt
> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could just
> get away?
> "One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
> "I beg your pardon?"
> "A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
> Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin to
> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, well,
> random!
> "What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
> Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
> eighteen years?"
> After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
> "Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy to
> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
> something?"
> "I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier 
> brothers
> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
> "I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
> "Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will 
> be
> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
> "And if I refuse?"
> "Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
> touch."
> The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in 
> his
> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The nature
> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed with
> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered how
> long they had been monitoring his family.
>
> ***
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 14:20:58 2010
From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:20:58 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom
In-Reply-To: <64C5654697324434848BD5E11F7F8EE2@Rufus>
References: <15424AC2F9C447D3AF99DC54EBE9BB5B@userbafffee1fc>
	<64C5654697324434848BD5E11F7F8EE2@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Ky3evf3L0jPP=R=+oPDNeiNAsM-=Krh5DoKTO@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Tina,
  I use an Olympus digital recorder, and it has worked very well for
me, but I have also heard lots of good things about the Victor Reader
Stream as a recording device. Because I'm more of a tactile rather
than auditory learner, I personally find it most beneficial to use my
voice recorder in combination with my braille note-taker. I try to
write down as much as possible during lecture and would refer to the
recording later for anything I'm not clear about.  While I recorded
most of my courses when I first started college, I soon found that my
braille notes are sufficient in most situations, and I did not have
the extra time to go back and listen to all of my recorded lectures,
so I  began to record only those courses in which I found note-taking
more difficult (foreign language classes or classes of a more visual
nature). Many of my professors also made their PowerPoint lecture
slides available for download after class, which served as a useful
study tool for me as well.
 I would encourage you to bring both of your recorder and braille
note-taker/laptop to class and figure out what works best for you. A
lot of this depends on your personal learning style and I'm sure you
will discover the note-taking solution that is most efficient for you
soon. good luck with the start of the semester!
   Katie

On 8/21/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. Ask the professor for their permission just as a general courtesy.
>
> 2. Make sure the recording device will not be close enough to your notetaker
> to pick up the clatter of your typing unless the keyboard on the notetaker
> is quiet.  For this reason I would not use the same device to take notes and
> record unless you are using a Braille Sense, which I dare say is most quiet
> of all the notetakers for the blind out there.
>
> 3. Make use of indicator tones, if available, to segment the recording to
> keep track of changing topics.
>
> 4. If you are recording, only jot down key points.  Later you can fill in
> the gaps, but allow yourself to fully concentrate and absorb what's being
> discussed.  It sounds like an elementary point, but I know people, namely
> myself, who try to pull off a stenographic record.
>
> I use an Olympus digital recorder, small and excellent sound quality for
> lecture and conference environments.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina Hansen
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:45 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom
>
> I know that there has been a great deal of discussion on this
> list in the past about the use of recording media in the
> classroom to record lectures. I also am aware that some people
> use either a laptop, Braille note taker, or slate and stylus to
> do notes. I, for one will not hire a live note taker, because
> to me, it just doesn't seem right.
>
> Anyway, I'd be interested in your thoughts about the use of
> digital voice recorder units during the lectures. If you've
> used them, what have you done to get the most out of the
> lectures? Do you think it's a good idea to use this tool alone
> or in combination with another note taking tool?
>
> Also, I have access to more than one unit with recording
> abilities: the Victor Reader Stream, the Book Port Plus, and
> the Book Sense. I also have a commercial voice recorder from
> Sony, but since the others are able to record mp3 files
> directly, I don't see the need to use that one unless I have no
> other option.
>
> Which units have others found works best in the lecture
> setting? Also, if anyone out there has other thoughts on how to
> use these tools effectively, I'm all ears. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
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> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>


From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sat Aug 21 16:01:27 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:01:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Use of Digital Voice Recorders in the Classroom
Message-ID: <auto-000165333884@mailfront2.g2host.com>

While I can't comment specifically on the use of a digital voice recorder, this issue has been with us for at least forty 
years.  Old cassette recorders could not mark up in DAISY which could make digital recordings more useful, but one 
could put index markers that could be scanned for and found.  Clearly, digital recorders add flexibility that these old 
recorders didn't have, but in my experience I rarely attended a lecture where I really wanted to relive it.  For me, the 
process of taking notes assisted me in organizing what I was hearing and caused me to maintain my concentration.  
Even if I got behind and missed something, what I missed was less significant than all that I learned because I took 
notes.  I am old enough that notes were taken with a slate and stylus using Grade Three braille which I felt allowed me 
to write as fast as sighted people were writing with a pencil.  I can't help but envy students now with the new note-
takers that let you write at the speed of a braille writer or typing into a computer, and I can only conclude that professors 
must be much more interesting now for students to even consider recording them.  <smile>    

Some of whether you record lectures or not will depend on your skill at doing this, but knowing you have that recording 
to fall back on will likely cause you to not concentrate on taking notes as you would if taking notes were the only thing 
you were doing.  You could have classes where the professor describes things in such a way that it might be handy to 
review, I can see that, but in general, I find the process of taking notes as a way to organize and efficiently recalling the 
important points of a class when reviewing is still very important for me.  I will also add that I still have to take classes as 
part of my job and I now generally take notes with a laptop, but I find that the process of taking notes is as helpful as it 
ever was.

Regarding art classes, There is a lot we can learn about painting styles and even colors without seeing them.  For us, it 
is going to be more theoretical, but we shouldn't undersell our own abilities to learn in such settings.  I had a physics 
professor who wondered how he could ever teach me about light and colors when I had not seen them.  I pointed out to 
him that he teaches everyone about gas and electricity and nobody actually sees them except in rare manifestations 
and he had never thought of that.  In the end, I did well on the unit on light, and my professor concluded that I may well 
have ended up understanding the physics better because I did learn it theoretically.  Art isn't the same as learning 
something like light, but there are sometimes unanticipated paths that can be taken.  Someone who has no ear for 
music could still learn the strengths of Bach versus brahms, for example.  Whether they should have to or not is an 
academic argument and will vary, but one doesn't have to physically experience everything they learn.  If I could choose 
to fill an art requirement by taking music rather than the examination of paintings, I would take music, no doubt about it, 
and that is what I did.  However, if exposure to paintings was required, I believe I could have gotten enough out of it to 
pass.  If I had to copy a painting as part of a test, I would definitely be in trouble, though.  <smile>

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:45:02 -0700, Tina Hansen wrote:

>I know that there has been a great deal of discussion on this list in the past about the use of recording media in the 
classroom to record lectures. I also am aware that some people use either a laptop, Braille note taker, or slate and stylus 
to do notes. I, for one will not hire a live note taker, because to me, it just doesn't seem right.

>Anyway, I'd be interested in your thoughts about the use of digital voice recorder units during the lectures. If you've 
used them, what have you done to get the most out of the lectures? Do you think it's a good idea to use this tool alone 
or in combination with another note taking tool?

>Also, I have access to more than one unit with recording abilities: the Victor Reader Stream, the Book Port Plus, and 
the Book Sense. I also have a commercial voice recorder from Sony, but since the others are able to record mp3 files 
directly, I don't see the need to use that one unless I have no other option.

>Which units have others found works best in the lecture setting? Also, if anyone out there has other thoughts on how 
to use these tools effectively, I'm all ears. Thanks.
>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com









From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 17:39:28 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:39:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <F1422E479D22453CAF66A79459BE3C49@MarcPC>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
	<F1422E479D22453CAF66A79459BE3C49@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinNkVjRcQ4RXeP9Cf0WVjSrQo-sAvsaBTpnd6+b@mail.gmail.com>

Hey...I still use an answering machine, and I'm not some old non-tech
savvy person! Voicemail costs once a month, whereas answering machines
cost only once (and mine only cost $5). Voicemail requires that you
remember to check it, with no blinking light to let you know;
answering machines say "Look at me, you have a message!" Voicemail
doesn't let you listen to the message as it's being recorded; if I
don't recognize the number, I can let my answering machine pick it up
and decide if I want to talk to the person. Answering machines are not
a thing of the past, though many people don't use them. I much prefer
the answering machine to voicemail anyday!

As for blind people in stories, I'll point to the best stories I know,
the mysteries of Sir John Fielding. These are awesome, based on a real
person, and are a great portrayla of a blind person who isn't helpless
or pitiful. Sir John, as in real life, is a strong, commanding
persona. Another book I read, a young adult's book, is about a boy who
becomes invisible because of a faulty electric blanket. It's called
"Things Unseen," but I don't remember the author. In the story, he
meets a blind girl, and they become friends. I thought it was a very
interesting portrayal of a young blind girl and did a great job of
showing her as strong, proud, independent...and it even threw in the
whole thing with the mother, who was always around the corner watching
her, afraid her poor little blind daughter would get into trouble.
That was a very hilarious spin on things, and ever so true.

~Jewel

On 8/21/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> I commend you for your ambition.  I'm sure it's a daunting task.  I've
> occasionally considered creative writing, particularly when an interesting
> idea for a story strikes me, but I've never been motivated enough to start,
> let alone finish.  The few ideas I've had usually did involve blind
> characters, and I think that's fine.  Someone somewhere must have once said,
> write about what you know.
>
> I also think the fact that there aren't many good portrayals of blind
> people, and by good I mean realistic and genuine, is all the more reason for
> you to write one.
>
> I think it's okay, and even necessary, to present the very real struggles
> that anyone losing his or her sight rapidly would inevitably face.  My only
> concern is that readers may fail to see this as part of an adjustment phase,
> that is, unless you somehow managed to make this clear in the book.
>
> I can't resist a couple of comments on the teaser, for whatever they're
> worth.  It's very attention grabbing.  I'm certainly interested.  I was
> distracted, though, twice.  First, there is the name of the character,
> Christian Slater.  I assume he was intentionally named after the actor, or
> perhaps you've never heard of him, but he is fairly well known, and I think,
> at some point, there has to be some reference to his sharing the name of a
> Hollywood playboy, some sort of comment on the coincidence.  Secondly,
> there's the answering machine.  Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I don't
> think anyone uses those anymore.  Besides a couple of people, usually older
> and usually not very tech savvy, I can't think of too many people who use
> them.  I see this all the time in movies and television shows, and it tends
> to strike me as sort of funny.  It' sets up an interesting tension, in that
> the character can listen to the message as it is recording and then
> interrupt it, so I understand why it's used as often as it is, but it just
> seems to completely overlook changes in telecommunications technology.  I
> mean, unless you are using it just as a device without regard to its
> authenticity, then there must be a reason why he is still using an answering
> machine in the age of voice mail.  Maybe it says something about the kind of
> person he is that he still uses one.  Maybe explaining why he still has one
> will give the reader some insight into the character.
>
> I hope you do finish the novel, and I wish you nothing but success with it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
>
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to
>> quit
>> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head for
>> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that it
>> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more
>> than
>> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
>> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>>
>> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind characters
>> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed.  They're
>> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
>> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can
>> either
>> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of my
>> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback of
>> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
>> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of
>> my
>> ramblings, right?
>>
>> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character should
>> be
>> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this
>> person
>> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
>> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience
>> the
>> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule
>> out
>> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
>> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a balanced
>> prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic reactions
>> in
>> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
>> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to
>> be
>> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
>> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, I'd
>> like to know this as well.
>>
>> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
>> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation in
>> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously
>> shared
>> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel free
>> to
>> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question so
>> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
>> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> ***
>>
>> Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
>> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter
>> would
>> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his
>> e-mail
>> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
>> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
>> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the kind
>> Christian and his family could do without.
>> They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
>> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been
>> right
>> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a total
>> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
>> encounter.
>> On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
>> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of them
>> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out
>> the
>> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising
>> plot.
>> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
>> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids
>> who
>> would have already forgotten what they learned.
>> Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
>> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish
>> state
>> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
>> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice Christian
>> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
>> "Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
>> Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
>> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British accent
>> emanating from it.
>> "I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
>> The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
>> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes riveted
>> to the machine.
>> "Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
>> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the phone.
>> This is most urgent."
>> Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
>> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
>> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it
>> was
>> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
>> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
>> collected.
>> "Hello," he croaked.
>> "Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
>> genuinely relieved.
>> "Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
>> "Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
>> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
>> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
>> "We are not friends," Christian countered.
>> "So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
>> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
>> "You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
>> "Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
>> let me get to the purpose of my call."
>> Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
>> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far preferable
>> to
>> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
>> "One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
>> "I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
>> whisper.
>> "I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
>> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
>> "I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
>> "You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
>> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity.
>> No
>> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
>> "I was told I could--"
>> "You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
>> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend
>> your
>> allegiance never existed?"
>> Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
>> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son,
>> Aaron,
>> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a newborn
>> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had
>> felt
>> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
>> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
>> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could just
>> get away?
>> "One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
>> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
>> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
>> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
>> "I beg your pardon?"
>> "A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
>> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
>> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
>> Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
>> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
>> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin to
>> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, well,
>> random!
>> "What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
>> Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
>> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
>> eighteen years?"
>> After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
>> "Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
>> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy to
>> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
>> something?"
>> "I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
>> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
>> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier
>> brothers
>> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
>> "I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
>> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
>> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
>> "Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
>> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will
>> be
>> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
>> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
>> "And if I refuse?"
>> "Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
>> touch."
>> The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
>> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in
>> his
>> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The nature
>> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
>> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed with
>> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered how
>> long they had been monitoring his family.
>>
>> ***
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 17:44:03 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:44:03 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <23719FDEE2F74F3981BA284DBB6A241B@Netbook>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
	<E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
	<AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
	<5A64466BC25C42018BC03271368C0F30@Rufus>
	<A4CCC283-E4C0-4FD8-8B9A-56AA21328EDA@mac.com>
	<23719FDEE2F74F3981BA284DBB6A241B@Netbook>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bubSbc34P5J3+RvbQzh8N-G6qStj690b-VC7J@mail.gmail.com>

Don't worry about calling me Joy. I am not in the least offended. I
didn't even notice! You could probably call me poop-head and I
wouldn't respond. I am not offended in the least.

~Jewel

On 8/21/10, Ben J. Bloomgren <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com> wrote:
> I could start a whole thread on Wikipedia, but I tell you! For linguistical
> information, it is a treasure trove! Obviously, use the references that are
> provided. That's how to get around the Wikipedia nonsense.
>
> Ben
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing
> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 09:13
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
>
>> Joe:
>> I'm not one to hate on Wikipedia, but I am aware that, at least in NY,
>> starting in 9th grade you can be expelled for using it.
>>
>> So, wouldn't be surprised if colleges banned it too.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:56 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:
>>
>>> I'll look around, see if I can find a plain text dictionary.  I don't
>>> know
>>> if Dictionary.com has a mobile interface, but that might be a possible
>>> solution.  Also, not to add to your technology pile, but the Franklin
>>> Language Master is an excellent tool.  Mine broke a few years back, and I
>>> still have it on my list of things to get.  It's a dictionary and then
>>> some
>>> and talks out of the box, though its price is a little beyond what one
>>> would
>>> pay for a hardcopy at a bookstore, $400 or so.  Still, if you're planning
>>>
>>> on
>>> doing professional writing in your future, which gathering from your
>>> posts
>>> on Stylist this would appear to be the case, it would seem like something
>>>
>>> to
>>> add to your list of equipment for your counselor.  And, come on!  Don't
>>> hate
>>> on Wikipedia!  It's helped me make sense out of many a complicated
>>> concepts!
>>> (grin)
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jewel S. [mailto:herekittykat2 at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:15 AM
>>> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students
>>> mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>>
>>> The Google serach is what I was doing, but I don't consider that a
>>> reliable source, since they quote wikipedia and wikipedia's dictionary
>>> as good sources...I don't think that's a good source of prper
>>> definitions. I also had difficulty navigating dictionary.com and the
>>> online Merriam-Webster. I guess it's just me, but all those
>>> advertisements really get in the way! Any tips for quick navigation?
>>> Is there anywhere I can get a dictionary program for my comuter for a
>>> low price, or an inexpensive talking handheld dictionary? These
>>> definitions took me nearly an hour, and there were only 10 of them!
>>> This task should not take me more than 15 minutes, I think. I have
>>> more important homework to get to.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>>
>>> On 8/19/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In Google, in the search box, type the word "define" followed
>>> by a colon.
>>>> Then enter the word or phrase you're interested in researching.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>> their sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel S.
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:30 AM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>>>>
>>>> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
>>>> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
>>>> "define <word>" and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
>>>> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
>>>> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
>>>> than the rest!
>>>>
>>>> ~Jewel
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ~Jewel
>>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekitt
>>> ykat2%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 18:46:38 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 12:46:38 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinNkVjRcQ4RXeP9Cf0WVjSrQo-sAvsaBTpnd6+b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus><F1422E479D22453CAF66A79459BE3C49@MarcPC>
	<AANLkTinNkVjRcQ4RXeP9Cf0WVjSrQo-sAvsaBTpnd6+b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AAB8C565005C450EA1D82DEB538D5418@MarcPC>

I actually specifically said "*usually* older and *usually* not very tech 
savvy" because I know this doesn't apply to everyone.  I should also have 
included those who wish to save money, which is another reason for 
preferring answering machines.  Though, typically, you don't actually pay 
all that much for voice mail when you get several features bundled into a 
package (e.g., caller ID, call waiting, and voice mail for only slightly 
more than call waiting by itself).  I know not all systems do this, but my 
voice mail system alerts me of a waiting message through a distinctive dial 
tone, which is more than the answering machine with its flashing light did 
when I was a kid.

Incidentally, it is possible to listen to the voice mail while it is being 
recorded and even to interrupt it, at least if you're with Telus up here in 
Canada.  Just pick up the phone after the short ring, and you'll hear your 
greeting followed by the person's message.  When you want to interrupt, do 
whatever it is that you would do to switch lines with call waiting.

But that's really my point: you love your answering machine, and you have 
all kinds of reasons for preferring it.  It strikes me as the same as using 
VCRs and cassette tapes.  People still use these things, and they have 
reasons for using them, but it's a little unusual, and I, at least, would 
wonder why someone was still popping cassette tapes into the walkman if I 
were reading a book set in the twenty-first century.

Regards,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character


> Hey...I still use an answering machine, and I'm not some old non-tech
> savvy person! Voicemail costs once a month, whereas answering machines
> cost only once (and mine only cost $5). Voicemail requires that you
> remember to check it, with no blinking light to let you know;
> answering machines say "Look at me, you have a message!" Voicemail
> doesn't let you listen to the message as it's being recorded; if I
> don't recognize the number, I can let my answering machine pick it up
> and decide if I want to talk to the person. Answering machines are not
> a thing of the past, though many people don't use them. I much prefer
> the answering machine to voicemail anyday!
>
> As for blind people in stories, I'll point to the best stories I know,
> the mysteries of Sir John Fielding. These are awesome, based on a real
> person, and are a great portrayla of a blind person who isn't helpless
> or pitiful. Sir John, as in real life, is a strong, commanding
> persona. Another book I read, a young adult's book, is about a boy who
> becomes invisible because of a faulty electric blanket. It's called
> "Things Unseen," but I don't remember the author. In the story, he
> meets a blind girl, and they become friends. I thought it was a very
> interesting portrayal of a young blind girl and did a great job of
> showing her as strong, proud, independent...and it even threw in the
> whole thing with the mother, who was always around the corner watching
> her, afraid her poor little blind daughter would get into trouble.
> That was a very hilarious spin on things, and ever so true.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/21/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Joe,
>>
>> I commend you for your ambition.  I'm sure it's a daunting task.  I've
>> occasionally considered creative writing, particularly when an 
>> interesting
>> idea for a story strikes me, but I've never been motivated enough to 
>> start,
>> let alone finish.  The few ideas I've had usually did involve blind
>> characters, and I think that's fine.  Someone somewhere must have once 
>> said,
>> write about what you know.
>>
>> I also think the fact that there aren't many good portrayals of blind
>> people, and by good I mean realistic and genuine, is all the more reason 
>> for
>> you to write one.
>>
>> I think it's okay, and even necessary, to present the very real struggles
>> that anyone losing his or her sight rapidly would inevitably face.  My 
>> only
>> concern is that readers may fail to see this as part of an adjustment 
>> phase,
>> that is, unless you somehow managed to make this clear in the book.
>>
>> I can't resist a couple of comments on the teaser, for whatever they're
>> worth.  It's very attention grabbing.  I'm certainly interested.  I was
>> distracted, though, twice.  First, there is the name of the character,
>> Christian Slater.  I assume he was intentionally named after the actor, 
>> or
>> perhaps you've never heard of him, but he is fairly well known, and I 
>> think,
>> at some point, there has to be some reference to his sharing the name of 
>> a
>> Hollywood playboy, some sort of comment on the coincidence.  Secondly,
>> there's the answering machine.  Perhaps I'm wrong about this, but I don't
>> think anyone uses those anymore.  Besides a couple of people, usually 
>> older
>> and usually not very tech savvy, I can't think of too many people who use
>> them.  I see this all the time in movies and television shows, and it 
>> tends
>> to strike me as sort of funny.  It' sets up an interesting tension, in 
>> that
>> the character can listen to the message as it is recording and then
>> interrupt it, so I understand why it's used as often as it is, but it 
>> just
>> seems to completely overlook changes in telecommunications technology.  I
>> mean, unless you are using it just as a device without regard to its
>> authenticity, then there must be a reason why he is still using an 
>> answering
>> machine in the age of voice mail.  Maybe it says something about the kind 
>> of
>> person he is that he still uses one.  Maybe explaining why he still has 
>> one
>> will give the reader some insight into the character.
>>
>> I hope you do finish the novel, and I wish you nothing but success with 
>> it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:42 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
>>
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to
>>> quit
>>> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head 
>>> for
>>> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that 
>>> it
>>> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more
>>> than
>>> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
>>> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>>>
>>> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind 
>>> characters
>>> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed. 
>>> They're
>>> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
>>> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can
>>> either
>>> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of 
>>> my
>>> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback 
>>> of
>>> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
>>> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of
>>> my
>>> ramblings, right?
>>>
>>> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character 
>>> should
>>> be
>>> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this
>>> person
>>> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
>>> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience
>>> the
>>> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule
>>> out
>>> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
>>> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a 
>>> balanced
>>> prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic 
>>> reactions
>>> in
>>> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
>>> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to
>>> be
>>> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
>>> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, 
>>> I'd
>>> like to know this as well.
>>>
>>> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
>>> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation 
>>> in
>>> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously
>>> shared
>>> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel 
>>> free
>>> to
>>> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question 
>>> so
>>> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
>>> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> ***
>>>
>>> Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
>>> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter
>>> would
>>> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his
>>> e-mail
>>> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
>>> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
>>> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the 
>>> kind
>>> Christian and his family could do without.
>>> They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
>>> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been
>>> right
>>> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a 
>>> total
>>> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
>>> encounter.
>>> On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
>>> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of 
>>> them
>>> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out
>>> the
>>> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising
>>> plot.
>>> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
>>> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids
>>> who
>>> would have already forgotten what they learned.
>>> Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
>>> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish
>>> state
>>> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
>>> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice 
>>> Christian
>>> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
>>> "Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
>>> Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
>>> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British 
>>> accent
>>> emanating from it.
>>> "I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
>>> The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
>>> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes 
>>> riveted
>>> to the machine.
>>> "Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
>>> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the 
>>> phone.
>>> This is most urgent."
>>> Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
>>> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
>>> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it
>>> was
>>> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
>>> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
>>> collected.
>>> "Hello," he croaked.
>>> "Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
>>> genuinely relieved.
>>> "Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
>>> "Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
>>> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
>>> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
>>> "We are not friends," Christian countered.
>>> "So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
>>> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
>>> "You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
>>> "Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
>>> let me get to the purpose of my call."
>>> Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
>>> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far 
>>> preferable
>>> to
>>> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
>>> "One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
>>> "I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
>>> whisper.
>>> "I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
>>> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
>>> "I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
>>> "You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
>>> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity.
>>> No
>>> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
>>> "I was told I could--"
>>> "You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
>>> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend
>>> your
>>> allegiance never existed?"
>>> Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
>>> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son,
>>> Aaron,
>>> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a 
>>> newborn
>>> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had
>>> felt
>>> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
>>> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
>>> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could 
>>> just
>>> get away?
>>> "One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
>>> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
>>> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
>>> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
>>> "I beg your pardon?"
>>> "A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
>>> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
>>> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
>>> Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
>>> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
>>> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin 
>>> to
>>> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, 
>>> well,
>>> random!
>>> "What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
>>> Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
>>> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
>>> eighteen years?"
>>> After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
>>> "Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
>>> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy 
>>> to
>>> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
>>> something?"
>>> "I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
>>> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
>>> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier
>>> brothers
>>> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
>>> "I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
>>> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
>>> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
>>> "Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
>>> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will
>>> be
>>> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
>>> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
>>> "And if I refuse?"
>>> "Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
>>> touch."
>>> The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
>>> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in
>>> his
>>> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The 
>>> nature
>>> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
>>> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed 
>>> with
>>> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered 
>>> how
>>> long they had been monitoring his family.
>>>
>>> ***
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Aug 21 20:14:23 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:14:23 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New New Jersey Diabetics Division List
Message-ID: <auto-000165347928@mailfront2.g2host.com>

The Diabetics  Division of the New Jersey affiliate has a new list 
nj-diabetes-division at nfbnet.org

Below is a description of this new list, plus instructions on how to subscribe.

Dave

The purpose of this list is to offer New Jersey diabetics a list to 
discuss living with diabetes and its complications. This list is open 
to both Type I and Type II Diabetics from New Jersey to support our 
NFBNJ Diabetic Division locally and encourage new and long-time 
members in the control of their diabetes and join our division.
Although the focus is on blindness and diabetes, any and all 
discussion concerning diabetes is welcome. Discussions on topics such 
as diet, dealing with healthcare, devices and control of diabetes are 
some possible topics.
Please, however, do not ask any direct medical questions or give any 
direct medical advice. Please refer all of this type of 
question/information to a medical professional.

The moderator of the list is Vincent Chaney Jr.  You can reach him at:
vgc732 at optonline.net



You can subscribe to the list by either going to:

http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nj-diabetes-division_nfbnet.org

or by sending e-mail to nj-diabetes-division-request at nfbnet.org and 
put the word subscribe by itself in the subject line.

Dave




                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Aug 21 20:21:47 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:21:47 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <28A89551F6774CA4A3732315005A5D18@OwnerPC>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
	<28A89551F6774CA4A3732315005A5D18@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <ADEE2B916BF74905B0AD551437F60905@Rufus>

Hello everyone,

Thank you for your thoughts on this project.

Andi,

I guess you figured out how the plot unravels.  The character is shot, and I
was on the fence about whether to make the consequence blindness or
paralysis.  Unfortunately my knowledge of the latter is limited, and I do
agree it's better to write about what one knows.  A friend suggested moving
forward with the blind character, and assuming the first installment was
published, a later sequel could allow more space to fully depict what the
character is experiencing.  I also thought of including a second blind
character, someone to counterbalance the first, motivate him to recover more
quickly, but then I would be seriously running a risk of steering away from
the main theme of the book.  I feel the blindness feature would already be a
significant secondary plot to undertake, but we'll see how it goes.

Jedi,

Excellent.  I'll have to check out this book you recommended.  I like good
examples that positively resonated with readers.

Marc,

That adjustment phase is what scares me.  Even if my character was a
headstrong go-getter, one must factor in the realistic range of emotions
they must endure before returning to the front of the action.

And you know, the name association never even occurred to me.  Names
randomly pop up, and I put them down temporarily until I can come up with
something more fitting.  Eight or so years ago I wrote my own short story
rendition of the Hotel California lyrics, and the character's name in that
piece wound up being Randy Strope.  At the time I hadn't met or ever heard
of the lady who is now Ryan Strunk's wife, though my character was a guy and
the real life person spells her name with an "i".  At any rate, this guy's
name will not stay the same.

Your point about the answering machine cracked me up.  In my home office I
have a phone with answering machine even though I prefer to use the
telephone provider's voice mail system.  If I went with the voice mail
approach, he could have easily ignored the call, and I needed something to
jar him into picking up the receiver.  We'll see.  I'll give it some
thought, though he is an older character and could probably get away with
choosing older technology.

Thanks again all.  I will most definitely give the NABS-L due credit in the
Acknowledgements if any publishing house winds up picking it up.  I may post
links where more portions of the ongoing manuscript can be read for anyone
interested.

Thanks,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andi [mailto:adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 12:04 AM
To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students 
mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character

I like your idea.  I am a writer myself, and struggle with the 
same problem 
concerning the blind in books.  I don't want to fall in to a 
stereotype, but 
you are rite when you say it would help educate people.  It is 
true that 
blind individuals are either overly romanticized or seriously 
degraded, no 
one seems to find that reality.  I think it is a good idea to 
put a blind 
character in your book, but to dissuade from stereotypes I 
guess I would 
make it a secondary character.  That however depends on what angle your 
going for.  Since you said you wanted the person to go blind 
later in life 
and it is a rival gang theme, perhaps the individual could get 
shot.  I have 
a few friends who went blind that way all later in life.  I 
myself can't 
attest to losing my vision quickly as I was young when I lost a 
large chunk 
and it is now a gradual decline however the friends I know who 
went through 
it in a "now I see, now I don't" faction, told me a bit of what 
they went 
through.  Of course it was different for each individual, 
most agree that 
the first emotion was: helplessness, followed by denial, then 
sadness, then 
most prominently anger, and then for the strong acceptance, and 
for the week 
back to denial.  I don't mean to be harsh but I have friends 
that took both 
paths.  I think if your story has a sudden blindness it is important to 
cover all this, but if your trying to educate the reader I 
would pick the 
stronger of the two characters, as one negative takes ten positives to 
remedy.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 10:42 PM
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character

> Hello,
>
> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've 
decided to 
> quit
> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering 
in my head for
> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can 
tell you that it
> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight 
for more 
> than
> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think 
Stephen King
> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>
> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to 
blind characters
> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been 
disappointed.  They're
> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can 
> either
> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was 
not part of my
> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the 
easy fallback of
> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very 
good means of
> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family 
bought a copy of 
> my
> ramblings, right?
>
> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind 
character should 
> be
> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this 
> person
> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able 
to come out
> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to 
experience 
> the
> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in 
itself rule 
> out
> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking 
for a balanced
> prospective between educating in a positive light and 
realistic reactions 
> in
> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, 
something to
> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and 
continues to 
> be
> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's 
actions, I'd
> like to know this as well.
>
> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it 
anywhere, but by
> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your 
participation in
> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously 
> shared
> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so 
please feel free 
> to
> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my 
original question so
> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews 
off my back.
> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>
> Joe
>
> ***
>
> Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter 
> would
> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his 
> e-mail
> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news 
of the kind
> Christian and his family could do without.
> They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been 
> right
> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would 
come as a total
> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the 
inevitable
> encounter.
> On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so 
many of them
> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his 
family out 
> the
> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising 
> plot.
> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to 
his writing
> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high 
school kids 
> who
> would have already forgotten what they learned.
> Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his 
feverish 
> state
> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in 
progress.  The
> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a 
voice Christian
> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
> "Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
> Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped 
British accent
> emanating from it.
> "I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
> The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, 
eyes riveted
> to the machine.
> "Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick 
up the phone.
> This is most urgent."
> Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled 
Christian.  Now it 
> was
> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be 
foolish.  He
> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to 
sound calm and
> collected.
> "Hello," he croaked.
> "Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
> genuinely relieved.
> "Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
> "Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not 
having heard
> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
> "We are not friends," Christian countered.
> "So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold 
a grudge."
> "You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
> "Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
> let me get to the purpose of my call."
> Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be 
far preferable 
> to
> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
> "One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
> "I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
> whisper.
> "I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
> "I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
> "You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the 
fraternity. 
> No
> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
> "I was told I could--"
> "You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave 
and pretend 
> your
> allegiance never existed?"
> Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son, 
> Aaron,
> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, 
was a newborn
> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the 
photo, he had 
> felt
> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his 
past would
> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his 
stomach, he
> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed 
he could just
> get away?
> "One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been 
left behind
> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
> "I beg your pardon?"
> "A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
> Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more 
despicable.
> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want 
to begin to
> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless 
boy was, well,
> random!
> "What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
> Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to 
in more than
> eighteen years?"
> After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
> "Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think 
you're crazy to
> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name 
from a hat or
> something?"
> "I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier 
> brothers
> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
> "I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being 
coerced into
> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
> "Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  
The boy will 
> be
> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall 
term.  This
> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
> "And if I refuse?"
> "Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
> touch."
> The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions 
colliding in 
> his
> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a 
shock.  The nature
> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed 
obsessed with
> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly 
wondered how
> long they had been monitoring his family.
>
> ***
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne
.dempsey%40gmail.com
> 



From dandrews at visi.com  Sat Aug 21 20:45:37 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:45:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimyZvA16b0yj1ET949S5j3UkSAsktN3UaA8PJnz@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
	<D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimyZvA16b0yj1ET949S5j3UkSAsktN3UaA8PJnz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000165349118@mailfront2.g2host.com>

The Seikko is battery-powered.

Dave

At 08:49 PM 8/18/2010, you wrote:
>Hi All:
>
>Okay.
>
>Are the seiko ones battery-powered or wind-up?
>
>Kerri

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Sat Aug 21 22:05:08 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:05:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] braille-note 32 cell immpower for sale
Message-ID: <773173.43169.qm@web53807.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

A friend of mine wants to cell a Braille Note Immpower 32 cell. It is in excellent condition never used perchased in 2009 still in the box
with all matterial with extended 5 year warranty. She is asking for 4000 dollars. If interested email her at

s.lovewisdom at gmail.com

Anmol

I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


      


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sun Aug 22 02:54:55 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:54:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness Items for Sale
Message-ID: <20100822025455.12716.15981@web2>

I have some blindness-related items for sale. Some of these are 
recreational while others are functional. Below is the list.

Braille Playing Cards: $5

Audio Book - Winning Every Time (CD): $10

Audio Book - Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter (cassette): $10

Audio Book - Conversations with God (cassette) $10

Audio Book - The Ha-Ha (CD): $10

Talking Watch (white with female voice) $5

Talking Watch (Black/gold with male voice) $5

Writing Guide - envelope: $3

Writing Guide - letter: $3

Wooden Braille Blocks (limited supply): $5 each

Slate and stylus set (limited supplies) - plastic: $5

Slate and stylus Set (limited supplies) - metal: $10

Victor Reader Wave (CD DAISY Reader): $100

Please contact me off-list at loneblindjedi at samobile.net for more 
information on any of these items. I'd like to be rid of them by the 
end of next week if at all possible.

Respectfully,
Jedi

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sun Aug 22 03:33:37 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 23:33:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Books
Message-ID: <20100822033337.23501.63255@web1>

This is an inventory of books I'd like to give away. All of these are 
in Grade 2 Braille and most are soft cover. Please distribute this list 
to anyone you think might be interested in some Braille books for their 
students. Otherwise, feel free to contact me if you wish to get back in 
touch with your childhood favorites. My e-mail is 
loneblindjedi at samobile.net. I'd like to have all these in transit to 
someone else's bookshelf by the end of next week if at all possible.

Grade 2 and below
The Little Engine That Could
The Velveteen Rabbit
The Emperors Birthday suit

Grades 3-5
Through Grampa's Eyes
Hurricane
Cam Janson and the Mystery of the Missing Dinosaur Bones
The Chocolate Touch
Trumpet of the Swan
Aladdin
Bed-Knobs and Broomsticks

Grades 6-9
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone
The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter
Ella Enchanted
Basic Cooking
Black Beauty
Pleasing the Ghost
The Indian and the Cupboard
Blubber
Walk Two Moons
View from Saturday
Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

Grades 9 and Over
When You Become 18
The Pigman
The Princess Diaries
The Girls' Book of Wisdom

Thanks for your help.

Respectfully,
Jedi

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 03:50:06 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:50:06 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Books
In-Reply-To: <20100822033337.23501.63255@web1>
References: <20100822033337.23501.63255@web1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7fK9MWaE_=FFBe31itPqtEYB8KgczS6r977xA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jedi.  My name is Julie.  Unless anyone mentions that they want
anything in particular, I can take all of those.  The Delta Gamma
center here in St. Louis is trying to set up a braille library.  We
are doing quite well, but we are looking for new titles all the time,
and I know for a fact that we do not have a lot of those books.  If
you email me off list I will give you an address where you can send
them.  Thanks.

On 8/21/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> This is an inventory of books I'd like to give away. All of these are
> in Grade 2 Braille and most are soft cover. Please distribute this list
> to anyone you think might be interested in some Braille books for their
> students. Otherwise, feel free to contact me if you wish to get back in
> touch with your childhood favorites. My e-mail is
> loneblindjedi at samobile.net. I'd like to have all these in transit to
> someone else's bookshelf by the end of next week if at all possible.
>
> Grade 2 and below
> The Little Engine That Could
> The Velveteen Rabbit
> The Emperors Birthday suit
>
> Grades 3-5
> Through Grampa's Eyes
> Hurricane
> Cam Janson and the Mystery of the Missing Dinosaur Bones
> The Chocolate Touch
> Trumpet of the Swan
> Aladdin
> Bed-Knobs and Broomsticks
>
> Grades 6-9
> Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone
> The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter
> Ella Enchanted
> Basic Cooking
> Black Beauty
> Pleasing the Ghost
> The Indian and the Cupboard
> Blubber
> Walk Two Moons
> View from Saturday
> Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
>
> Grades 9 and Over
> When You Become 18
> The Pigman
> The Princess Diaries
> The Girls' Book of Wisdom
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 04:01:12 2010
From: skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com (Karrie Kinstetter)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 23:01:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Books
In-Reply-To: <20100822033337.23501.63255@web1>
References: <20100822033337.23501.63255@web1>
Message-ID: <873E5B8CCFE94D23B0CA7717FE08CCE9@kerrie025e8776>

 I'd like the
ones that are grade 2 and below.
I volonteer at a daycare and read to preschoolers once a week and my supply 
of braille books is limited in that level.
If anyone else from this  list has any braille books grade 2 and below 
preferably twin vision as these are all sighted children please email me off 
list at
skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com
----------------------------------
Sincerely,
Karrie Kinstetter----------------
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 10:33 PM
To: <nfbwatlk at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; <cane.travel at gmail.com>; 
<john.glenn at bellinghamschools.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Books

> This is an inventory of books I'd like to give away. All of these are in 
> Grade 2 Braille and most are soft cover. Please distribute this list to 
> anyone you think might be interested in some Braille books for their 
> students. Otherwise, feel free to contact me if you wish to get back in 
> touch with your childhood favorites. My e-mail is 
> loneblindjedi at samobile.net. I'd like to have all these in transit to 
> someone else's bookshelf by the end of next week if at all possible.
>
> Grade 2 and below
> The Little Engine That Could
> The Velveteen Rabbit
> The Emperors Birthday suit
>
> Grades 3-5
> Through Grampa's Eyes
> Hurricane
> Cam Janson and the Mystery of the Missing Dinosaur Bones
> The Chocolate Touch
> Trumpet of the Swan
> Aladdin
> Bed-Knobs and Broomsticks
>
> Grades 6-9
> Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone
> The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter
> Ella Enchanted
> Basic Cooking
> Black Beauty
> Pleasing the Ghost
> The Indian and the Cupboard
> Blubber
> Walk Two Moons
> View from Saturday
> Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
>
> Grades 9 and Over
> When You Become 18
> The Pigman
> The Princess Diaries
> The Girls' Book of Wisdom
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5385 (20100821) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5385 (20100821) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com





From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 04:52:39 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:52:39 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Fw: Important - Recruiting for D.C.-Area Focus Group,
 Accessibility of High-Stakes Testing
In-Reply-To: <0BCDF5FC848A484C9010A794DF82EC6C@IndigoPC>
References: <0BCDF5FC848A484C9010A794DF82EC6C@IndigoPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikmih2uGHibpowcQAJ57HruzxACttEy5n4Y2_Nq@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Allison Hilliker <hillikera at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:26:13 -0700
Subject: Fw: Important - Recruiting for D.C.-Area Focus Group,
Accessibility of High-Stakes Testing
To: NABS President <nabs.president at gmail.com>

Recruiting for D.C.-Area Focus Group, Accessibility of High-Stakes
TestingHi Arielle,

Have you seen this?  I thought it's something NABS students might like
to be involved in.

Allison

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Watkins
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 8:14 AM
Subject: Recruiting for D.C.-Area Focus Group, Accessibility of
High-Stakes Testing


Recruiting for D.C. Area Focus Group, Accessibility of High Stakes Testing

The Graduate Management Admission Council (GMAC®) is working with
WGBH's Carl and Ruth Shapiro National Center for Accessible Media
(WGBH-NCAM) to conduct a focus group on the accessibility of the
Graduate Management Admission Test (GMAT®) by people who are blind,
have low vision or have a mobility impairment, and who use a keyboard
vs. a mouse for online navigation. Your participation is requested.
Preference is given to individuals who have had experience taking a
high stakes graduate admission test.

Focus Group participants will be asked questions about test taking
experiences including test functionality and navigation, and to
provide preferences for potential delivery of accessible graphics and
other imagery.

An honorarium will be offered, and transportation to the site of the
focus group (Reston, VA) arranged and costs reimbursed.

Please send an email to access at wgbh.org with "participate" in the
subject line. The focus group will be held in the morning of one of
these three dates. Please include your preferences of dates by
indicating first choice and second choice.

Thursday, September 16
Tuesday, September 21
Monday, October 4

Thank you.

-- 
Mary Watkins
Director of Communications
  and Outreach
Media Access Group at WGBH



-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 05:34:24 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 23:34:24 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
In-Reply-To: <B83F16AF-A10A-48DA-917E-8C6B83797FE3@gmail.com>
References: <7528D9AF6922431DA90B6969CF352A17@userbafffee1fc>
	<F625541945444BCBA8AF7E8A0D7FC900@D9P3ZND1>
	<B83F16AF-A10A-48DA-917E-8C6B83797FE3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJKre36hbGWcC9faxozeFC94=2Z85GyLQmhK0N@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tina and all,

As others mentioned, you can simply ask your instructor whether the
older edition will be OK or if you need the newest one, and go from
there. If the instructor is using the textbook as a supplement, but
not assigning homework strictly based on what is in the text, you will
probably be fine with the older edition unless there are drastic
changes.

I was a bio major in college and took two semesters of general bio
with labs and two semesters of general chemistry with labs. All my bio
labs and almost all my chem labs were done in pairs or groups, so I
could participate equally in almost all aspects of the lab projects in
collaboration with my group. The only accommodation that's generally
necessary is to ask your partner(s) to verbalize what is happening in
the experiment. This kind of discussion is good for helping all group
members clarify and understand the information gained in the lab. With
this information conveyed verbally, you can participate as an equal
partner in the processes of experiment design, data recording,
analysis, and writing/reporting. Keeping your instructor in the loop
is great, but I don't think you need to ask for any special
accommodations if it's a group/partner lab. If for some reason you
have to complete lab experiments on your own, you may or may not need
a reader depending on whether you'll need to know about visual things
happening in your experiment, such as color changes or readings on
inaccessible measuring devices.

Finally, taking advantage of your instructor's office hours if you get
confused about any course material is a good idea. But, don't assume
that you'll necessarily be struggling more than other students. You
may benefit from tactile diagrams, but you may also find that the
diagrams are redundant and you can follow the course concepts without
them. You should have a good feel after a week or two of class about
what kind of additional accommodations, if any, you could benefit
from.

Arielle

On 8/20/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I don't really know how your school works, but what I do is to buy the
> regular book at the bookstore and take it to the Adaptive Technology and
> Accessibility Center in my university, which puts it in accessible format
> for me. They always ask for the syllabus for the class, so they can know
> what I am going to need for each day. You should check if your school has an
> adaptive technology center like that. Mine works great and I really don't
> know what I would do without it.
> On Aug 20, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Anjelina wrote:
>
>> Hi Tina:
>> I'd talk to the professor to see if the previous edition is drastically
>> different from the required version. Sometimes it might be wording
>> differences or chapters are organized differently. Have you tried
>> Bookshare or contacting the publisher to get the current version in an
>> accessible format? If those options don't pan out you could scan the book
>> yourself.
>> Keep in constant contact with the professor and use the office hours to
>> get clarification for parts of the course that may be visual. For labs you
>> could hire a reader who could help with-in class experiments. You'd tell
>> them what to do and they could tell you the results.
>> Just my thoughts.
>>
>> Anjelina
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 1:59 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need Advice: Environmental Science Course
>>
>>
>>> This fall, I will be taking an environmental science course at my local
>>> community college. There are two concerns I have, and I was wondering if
>>> anyone out there has taken this kind of course before, and how you may
>>> have addressed them.
>>>
>>> 1. I did the research about the textbook I need, and discovered that
>>> RFB&D has the previous eddition, but not the one my instructor is asking
>>> everyone to get. If you've been in this situation before, how have you
>>> addressed this issue?
>>>
>>> 2. Lab work. I know that there is going to be a lab in this course, and I
>>> am not willing to have it waved. If you've done lab work for a course
>>> like this, what have you done to make sure you're able to participate?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any advice you might have on these concerns.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sun Aug 22 05:40:30 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:40:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Books
Message-ID: <20100822054030.1321.55436@web2>

I'll be happy to send you whatever's left.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi Jedi.  My name is Julie.  Unless anyone mentions that they want
> anything in particular, I can take all of those.  The Delta Gamma
> center here in St. Louis is trying to set up a braille library.  We
> are doing quite well, but we are looking for new titles all the time,
> and I know for a fact that we do not have a lot of those books.  If
> you email me off list I will give you an address where you can send
> them.  Thanks.

> On 8/21/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> This is an inventory of books I'd like to give away. All of these are
>> in Grade 2 Braille and most are soft cover. Please distribute this list
>> to anyone you think might be interested in some Braille books for their
>> students. Otherwise, feel free to contact me if you wish to get back in
>> touch with your childhood favorites. My e-mail is
>> loneblindjedi at samobile.net. I'd like to have all these in transit to
>> someone else's bookshelf by the end of next week if at all possible.

>> Grade 2 and below
>> The Little Engine That Could
>> The Velveteen Rabbit
>> The Emperors Birthday suit

>> Grades 3-5
>> Through Grampa's Eyes
>> Hurricane
>> Cam Janson and the Mystery of the Missing Dinosaur Bones
>> The Chocolate Touch
>> Trumpet of the Swan
>> Aladdin
>> Bed-Knobs and Broomsticks

>> Grades 6-9
>> Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone
>> The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter
>> Ella Enchanted
>> Basic Cooking
>> Black Beauty
>> Pleasing the Ghost
>> The Indian and the Cupboard
>> Blubber
>> Walk Two Moons
>> View from Saturday
>> Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

>> Grades 9 and Over
>> When You Become 18
>> The Pigman
>> The Princess Diaries
>> The Girls' Book of Wisdom

>> Thanks for your help.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com



> --
> Julie McG
>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind

> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sun Aug 22 05:40:41 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:40:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Books
Message-ID: <20100822054041.1416.54800@web2>

I'll be happy to send you whatever's left.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi Jedi.  My name is Julie.  Unless anyone mentions that they want
> anything in particular, I can take all of those.  The Delta Gamma
> center here in St. Louis is trying to set up a braille library.  We
> are doing quite well, but we are looking for new titles all the time,
> and I know for a fact that we do not have a lot of those books.  If
> you email me off list I will give you an address where you can send
> them.  Thanks.

> On 8/21/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> This is an inventory of books I'd like to give away. All of these are
>> in Grade 2 Braille and most are soft cover. Please distribute this list
>> to anyone you think might be interested in some Braille books for their
>> students. Otherwise, feel free to contact me if you wish to get back in
>> touch with your childhood favorites. My e-mail is
>> loneblindjedi at samobile.net. I'd like to have all these in transit to
>> someone else's bookshelf by the end of next week if at all possible.

>> Grade 2 and below
>> The Little Engine That Could
>> The Velveteen Rabbit
>> The Emperors Birthday suit

>> Grades 3-5
>> Through Grampa's Eyes
>> Hurricane
>> Cam Janson and the Mystery of the Missing Dinosaur Bones
>> The Chocolate Touch
>> Trumpet of the Swan
>> Aladdin
>> Bed-Knobs and Broomsticks

>> Grades 6-9
>> Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone
>> The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter
>> Ella Enchanted
>> Basic Cooking
>> Black Beauty
>> Pleasing the Ghost
>> The Indian and the Cupboard
>> Blubber
>> Walk Two Moons
>> View from Saturday
>> Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

>> Grades 9 and Over
>> When You Become 18
>> The Pigman
>> The Princess Diaries
>> The Girls' Book of Wisdom

>> Thanks for your help.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com



> --
> Julie McG
>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind

> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From gera1027 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 16:16:46 2010
From: gera1027 at gmail.com (Gerardo Corripio)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:16:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] About leaving IPod's cable attached to PC DOES IT HARM IT
	COMPUTER?
Message-ID: <002d01cb4215$6cba5b90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>

Hi listers: Hoping you guys with IPods can help me out With the IPod comes a 
cable to connect the IPod to the USB port on the computer, and thought I'd 
leave the USB end attached to my computer so that everytime I want to charge 
or sync my IPod I don't have to bother connecting and disconnecting, but 
want to know does it harm the PC IN SOME WAY TO LEAVE THE USB end attached? 
The PC THINKS THERE'S NOTHING CONNECTED BECAUSE THE IPod isn't connected, 
thus my question, or is it better to unplug the cable completely as before?
Gerardo 



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 16:20:16 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:20:16 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] About leaving IPod's cable attached to PC DOES IT HARM
	IT COMPUTER?
In-Reply-To: <002d01cb4215$6cba5b90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
References: <002d01cb4215$6cba5b90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
Message-ID: <85CF2F18-D736-4147-8802-D445CD5A9BC6@gmail.com>

It won't do anything bad to your computer. Basically it doesn't matter what you do.
On Aug 22, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Gerardo Corripio wrote:

> Hi listers: Hoping you guys with IPods can help me out With the IPod comes a 
> cable to connect the IPod to the USB port on the computer, and thought I'd 
> leave the USB end attached to my computer so that everytime I want to charge 
> or sync my IPod I don't have to bother connecting and disconnecting, but 
> want to know does it harm the PC IN SOME WAY TO LEAVE THE USB end attached? 
> The PC THINKS THERE'S NOTHING CONNECTED BECAUSE THE IPod isn't connected, 
> thus my question, or is it better to unplug the cable completely as before?
> Gerardo 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From seacknit at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 17:00:20 2010
From: seacknit at gmail.com (Sally Thomas)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:00:20 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] About leaving IPod's cable attached to PC DOES IT HARM
	ITCOMPUTER?
In-Reply-To: <002d01cb4215$6cba5b90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
References: <002d01cb4215$6cba5b90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
Message-ID: <1CADB43437E84FA4A896DD8E83C440B7@OwnerPC>

I leave my cable attached and I've never had a problem.

Sally Thomas
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gerardo Corripio" <gera1027 at gmail.com>
To: "BlindStudents" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 11:16 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] About leaving IPod's cable attached to PC DOES IT HARM 
ITCOMPUTER?


> Hi listers: Hoping you guys with IPods can help me out With the IPod comes 
> a
> cable to connect the IPod to the USB port on the computer, and thought I'd
> leave the USB end attached to my computer so that everytime I want to 
> charge
> or sync my IPod I don't have to bother connecting and disconnecting, but
> want to know does it harm the PC IN SOME WAY TO LEAVE THE USB end 
> attached?
> The PC THINKS THERE'S NOTHING CONNECTED BECAUSE THE IPod isn't connected,
> thus my question, or is it better to unplug the cable completely as 
> before?
> Gerardo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/seacknit%40gmail.com 



From astrochem119 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 18:54:14 2010
From: astrochem119 at gmail.com (Chelsea Cook)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:54:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
Message-ID: <AANLkTim4fxOyXekTc+n3E8ZxPmQzNHcWbJGA5rcpxBqq@mail.gmail.com>

Hi George,

What I did was very helpful. I always put personal files on an
external flash drive or SD card; that way, I could just remove the
card when sending it back for repairs, etc. I also learned where the
database files were, so just copied my address lists when I needed
them. (This is a great back-up option, too.)

Hope this helps,
Chelsea

Chelsea Cook

Virginia Tech 2015; Physics Major
cook2010 at vt.edu
"I ask you to look both ways.  For the road to a knowledge of the
stars leads through the atom; and important knowledge of the atom has
been reached through
the stars."
Sir Arthur Eddington, British astrophysicist (1882-1944), Stars and
Atoms (1928), Lecture 1


From trising at sbcglobal.net  Sun Aug 22 20:15:02 2010
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 16:15:02 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Washtenaw County Chapter
Message-ID: <0C2CC4A4A1E543E693B857E2892377D5@user6389c7a3c9>


Please send this announcement to any blind student or person you know about in Washtenaw County Michigan.







            We invite you to attend  the Washtenaw County Chapter Meeting of the National Federation of the Blind of Michigan. We 
meet every second Saturday of the month, from 12 P.M. to 3 P.M. We  meet at

Pizza Pino

221 West Liberty Street,

Ann Arbor MI, 48104

with the exception of July, when we have no Chapter Meeting because of National Convention.

Learn how our state affiliate of the National Federation of the Blind is changing what it means to be blind in Michigan. Learn that 
it is respectable to be blind. Hear about our State and National Conventions. Network and learn from other blind people about skills 
of blindness.

 Braille menus are available. The proprietor will not charge us for the room, as long as everyone order something.

Sincerely,

Terri Wilcox

Secretary, National Federation of the Blind of Michigan

Feel free to contact me at

trising at sbcglobal.net



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 22 22:41:28 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:41:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] re n
References: <AANLkTinS3ZOg5YTQ80tAsVBWF73hBMN2YRAFQwRu_Kx0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CF15D6C2403E47649E6E64E0CD93BA23@Ashley>

Is this spam?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trey Bradley" <treyman19 at gmail.com>
To: <metallica10476 at hotmail.com>; <mich at ntl.sympatico.ca>; 
<mzost at earthlink.net>; <michegodwin at comcast.net>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:11 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] re n


> hello friends:
> I tell you a good news!
> I Buy 5 products Philips 56PFL9954H/12 56 inch last week in a Chinese
> website:<dhsellso.com>
> I already received the product. And I above ebay, resell these the
> product which purchases from China, I already earned many money.
> It's amazing! The item is original, brand new and has high quality,
> but it's much cheaper. I'm pleased to sh匹are this good news with you!
> I believe you will find what you want there and have an good experience
> on shopping from them.
> Regards！
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 23:58:35 2010
From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:58:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] AIM 7 and JAWS 10
Message-ID: <AANLkTikLdfYobObQX0qVJxt6FReMXLVW+K+UkEvjx5sT@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, all,
  Have any of you tried using the latest version of AIM (7.2, I
believe) with JAWS 10? Are the basic features accessible and do the
keyboard commands work properly? I'm currently running AIM 6.9 and it
works very well, but I'm interested in checking out some of the new
features of AIM 7, such as the ability to chat with my Facebook
friends. Also, my current version of AIM is sometimes unreliable about
showing my friends' status accurately, which happened to me before
when I was running an out-of-date version of AIM. I know AIM 7 is
supposed to work with JAWS 11, and according to the Freedom Scientific
website, i will need to download some sort of script to make JAWS 10
work with it, but i'm wondering whether this is really the case. Any
experiences would be much appreciated! Thanks!
   Katie


From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 00:09:59 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 18:09:59 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] AIM 7 and JAWS 10
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikLdfYobObQX0qVJxt6FReMXLVW+K+UkEvjx5sT@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikLdfYobObQX0qVJxt6FReMXLVW+K+UkEvjx5sT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin-DxtAghJ4fQZ2HzqMzSvxCTxzSR1V+XRaGXk_@mail.gmail.com>

I don't need any scripts for AIM 7 and JAWS 10.  I've never needed
scripts personally.  I'm tired of downloading scripts for any program.
 Anyway, I love the AIM 7, but sometimes it doesn't load the FB
friends list properly and doesn't show it either.  But other than
that, the FB friends thing is awesome.  I enjoy chatting with over 600
people, and seeing how they are in the statuses.  I even added my
Twitter account to my Life Stream.
Beth

On 8/22/10, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, all,
>   Have any of you tried using the latest version of AIM (7.2, I
> believe) with JAWS 10? Are the basic features accessible and do the
> keyboard commands work properly? I'm currently running AIM 6.9 and it
> works very well, but I'm interested in checking out some of the new
> features of AIM 7, such as the ability to chat with my Facebook
> friends. Also, my current version of AIM is sometimes unreliable about
> showing my friends' status accurately, which happened to me before
> when I was running an out-of-date version of AIM. I know AIM 7 is
> supposed to work with JAWS 11, and according to the Freedom Scientific
> website, i will need to download some sort of script to make JAWS 10
> work with it, but i'm wondering whether this is really the case. Any
> experiences would be much appreciated! Thanks!
>    Katie
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>


From jj at bestmidi.com  Mon Aug 23 00:20:21 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:20:21 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Another Way to Help Bring in More Votes
Message-ID: <395CCFAF53334D40BB06EE5B66D4E94E@jage>

In looking at the comments on the Refresh Everything Youth Slam grant, a lot of the votes which come to projects are done through people voting on other projects.
What we can do is vote for worthy and cool projects at the 5k and 50k level and then post a comment on their page stating you voted for them and asking them to vote for NFB in return. Look at some of the comments posted to get an idea of how people are doing this. This may help get the word out to more people.
Feel free to pass this on if you feel others may benefit.

J.J.

From kramc11 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 00:36:15 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:36:15 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] re n
In-Reply-To: <CF15D6C2403E47649E6E64E0CD93BA23@Ashley>
References: <AANLkTinS3ZOg5YTQ80tAsVBWF73hBMN2YRAFQwRu_Kx0@mail.gmail.com>
	<CF15D6C2403E47649E6E64E0CD93BA23@Ashley>
Message-ID: <47B726BA336E4B65BC838BD83C6C8B6F@SonyPC>

Yes! The spam meter is pegging off the charts.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] re n


> Is this spam?
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Trey Bradley" <treyman19 at gmail.com>
> To: <metallica10476 at hotmail.com>; <mich at ntl.sympatico.ca>; 
> <mzost at earthlink.net>; <michegodwin at comcast.net>
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 12:11 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] re n
>
>
>> hello friends:
>> I tell you a good news!
>> I Buy 5 products Philips 56PFL9954H/12 56 inch last week in a Chinese
>> website:<dhsellso.com>
>> I already received the product. And I above ebay, resell these the
>> product which purchases from China, I already earned many money.
>> It's amazing! The item is original, brand new and has high quality,
>> but it's much cheaper. I'm pleased to sh匹are this good news with you!
>> I believe you will find what you want there and have an good experience
>> on shopping from them.
>> Regards！
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
> 



From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Aug 23 00:32:28 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:32:28 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] re n
In-Reply-To: <CF15D6C2403E47649E6E64E0CD93BA23@Ashley>
References: <AANLkTinS3ZOg5YTQ80tAsVBWF73hBMN2YRAFQwRu_Kx0@mail.gmail.com>
	<CF15D6C2403E47649E6E64E0CD93BA23@Ashley>
Message-ID: <auto-000165414488@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Kind of, he is a legitimate list user -- his 
address has either been hijacked, or he has 
spyware that is using his address book.  Just 
ignore -- so far there has just been one.

Dave

At 05:41 PM 8/22/2010, you wrote:
>Is this spam? ----- Original Message ----- From: 
>"Trey Bradley" <treyman19 at gmail.com> To: 
><metallica10476 at hotmail.com>; 
><mich at ntl.sympatico.ca>; <mzost at earthlink.net>; 
><michegodwin at comcast.net> Sent: Friday, August 
>20, 2010 12:11 AM Subject: [nabs-l] re n > hello 
>friends: > I tell you a good news! > I Buy 5 
>products Philips 56PFL9954H/12 56 inch last week 
>in a Chinese > website:<dhsellso.com> > I 
>already received the product. And I above ebay, 
>resell these the > product which purchases from 
>China, I already earned many money. > It's 
>amazing! The item is original, brand new and has 
>high quality, > but it's much cheaper. I'm 
>pleased to sh匹are this good news with you! > I 
>believe you will find what you want there and 
>have an good experience > on shopping from 
>them. > Regards！ > > 
>_______________________________________________ > 
>  nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org  
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or 
>get your account info for > nabs-l: > 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net  
> > 
>_______________________________________________ 
>nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org 
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get 
>your account info for nabs-l: 
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com 
></x-flowed>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From kc2992a at student.american.edu  Mon Aug 23 00:32:35 2010
From: kc2992a at student.american.edu (Katy Carroll)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:32:35 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Slate Committee Conference Call this Sunday
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinOfzW9igejztaQ5uALPzTd0ZaW4gMowoA6MSGG@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00d801cb2e22$f3b48190$db1d84b0$@com>
	<AANLkTinBb7CwWLvWgLVrfr9b8C9t+RfSmLRrAo5+UHDG@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinOfzW9igejztaQ5uALPzTd0ZaW4gMowoA6MSGG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=SVKaWANO3C=rnZ=7ud-vm+JRqqywWuZKBoeOz@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Sean,

Just wanted to let you know I am submitting an article for the Student Slate
about MIUSA. Also, Anmol and I are collaborating on an article about the NCD
Summiit.

Hope all's well!

Kate

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:42 PM, Katy Carroll
<kc2992a at student.american.edu>wrote:

> When is the next deadline for student Slate submissions?
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Katy Carroll <
> kc2992a at student.american.edu> wrote:
>
>>  I would like to participate; I think I can make it.
>>
>> Best,
>> Kate Carroll
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Good evening,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am writing to let anybody who is interested know that the Student Slate
>>> Committee will be having a conference call this Sunday, August 1st, at
>>> 8:00
>>> eastern time. Anybody who is interested in either writing an article for
>>> the
>>> Slate or helping us to identify potential authors with interesting
>>> stories
>>> to tell is most welcome to attend. The dial in information is as follows:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Number: (712) 775-7100
>>>
>>> Participant Code: 257963
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As always, thank you for your help, and we look forward to talking with
>>> you
>>> on Sunday.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kathryn CARROLL
>> BlueLaw International LLP
>> 703-647-7508
>> Cell: 631-521-3018
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Kathryn CARROLL
> BlueLaw International LLP
> 703-647-7508
> Cell: 631-521-3018
>
>


-- 
Kathryn CARROLL
BlueLaw International LLP
703-647-7508
Cell: 631-521-3018

From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Mon Aug 23 02:16:20 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 19:16:20 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] About leaving IPod's cable attached to PC DOES IT HARM
 IT COMPUTER?
In-Reply-To: <002d01cb4215$6cba5b90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
References: <002d01cb4215$6cba5b90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>
Message-ID: <D024924F-2F62-4306-8D81-AECDBC566DEF@mac.com>

Its better to unplug it, but there's no harm either way.

Jorge




Thanks.



Jorge Paez


---
President And CEO:
Paez Production Networks





Please note:
this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media.

On Aug 22, 2010, at 9:16 AM, Gerardo Corripio wrote:

> Hi listers: Hoping you guys with IPods can help me out With the IPod comes a 
> cable to connect the IPod to the USB port on the computer, and thought I'd 
> leave the USB end attached to my computer so that everytime I want to charge 
> or sync my IPod I don't have to bother connecting and disconnecting, but 
> want to know does it harm the PC IN SOME WAY TO LEAVE THE USB end attached? 
> The PC THINKS THERE'S NOTHING CONNECTED BECAUSE THE IPod isn't connected, 
> thus my question, or is it better to unplug the cable completely as before?
> Gerardo 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From j.schmude at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 08:03:26 2010
From: j.schmude at gmail.com (Jacob Schmude)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 01:03:26 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] For Sale: Mid 2008 Macbook and Pac Mate 40-cell display
Message-ID: <4C722B4E.9020405@gmail.com>

Hi all
I have a couple tech items for sale.
Item 1: Apple Macbook revision 4,1
This is a mid 2008 Macbook that's seen a lot of use over the two years I've owned it. Specs are:
Intel Core2 Duo at 2.4 ghz
Intel GMA 3100 graphics
4 gb of Kingston HyperX DDR2 ram (upgraded from stock 2 gb)
160 gb, 5400 rpm hard drive
Mac OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard)
This Macbook is in great working condition though it does have some scratches on the outside. As I said, I've used it a lot and even though handled carefully the white casing attracts scratches and fingerprints rather easily. It originally came with Leopard, though I've since upgraded it. You'll get both the original Leopard disks as well as the Snow Leopard disk. The battery is still good and gets about 5 hours on average. Unlike the latest models, this battery is user-replaceable as are the ram and hard drive. It will only come with OS X, though you can add Windows if you wish. It runs Windows 7 extremely well. However, this Macbook does not have an embedded numpad, as Apple removed that feature some time before this model was released. It has a slot-loading 8x DVD burner (dual-layer compatible), 2 USB ports, a Firewire 400 port, gigabit ethernet, and 802.11 B/G and Draft N Wireless.
Price: $450

Item 2: Pac Mate 40-cell Braille Display
This is a 40 cell Pac Mate display. This is just the display, no Pac Mate itself. All cells and buttons are working and the unit is in very good condition. This display will work with pretty much any system that supports USB. It works with most major Windows screen readers (excluding System Access from Serotek), Macintosh, and Linux as well as other BRLTTY-supported platforms. Display and Mini-USB cable are included. I don't have the driver disk, but the drivers can be downloaded from Freedom Scientific if your screen reader needs them (Windows only). Voiceover on the Mac doesn't need any drivers (just plug it in while Voiceover is running and it will be detected).
Price: $450

These items can either go separately or together. I'm selling because the extra money will help me out with a move. If anyone's interested in either of these, let me know.

Contact info:
Jacob Schmude
AIM: schmudej85
Email and Windows Live Messenger: j.schmude at gmail.com
Skype: j.schmude
Phone: 814-806-1586 (forwards to Skype)

Thanks





From corbbo at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 17:00:20 2010
From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbbmacc O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:00:20 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Recruiting for D.C. Area Focus Group,
 Accessibility of High Stakes Testing (GMAT)
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWw45kK8Ajbi=-fJUQ+C1J4LUgv+VdDmwrDzRO@mail.gmail.com>

Please see the announcement/invitation below to participate in an upcoming
focus group. Forwarding and reposting is encouraged. Thank you.

Recruiting for D.C. Area Focus Group, Accessibility of High Stakes Testing

The Graduate Management Admission Council (GMAC®) is working with WGBH's
Carl and Ruth Shapiro National Center for Accessible Media (WGBH-NCAM) to
conduct a focus group on the accessibility of the Graduate Management
Admission Test (GMAT®) by people who are blind, have low vision or have a
mobility impairment, and who use a keyboard vs. a mouse for online
navigation. Your participation is requested. Preference is given to
individuals who have had experience taking a high stakes graduate admission
test.

Focus Group participants will be asked questions about test taking
experiences including test functionality and navigation, and to provide
preferences for potential delivery of accessible graphics and other imagery.

An honorarium will be offered, and transportation to the site of the focus
group (Reston, VA) arranged and costs reimbursed.

Please send an email to access at wgbh.org with "participate" in the subject
line. The focus group will be held in the morning of one of these three
dates. Please include your preferences of dates by indicating first choice
and second choice.

Thursday, September 16
Tuesday, September 21
Monday, October 4

Thank you.

-- 
Mary Watkins
Director of Communications
and Outreach
Media Access Group at WGBH
One Guest Street
Boston, MA 02135
617 300-3700
mary_watkins at wgbh.org
access.wgbh.org

Follow the Media Access Group on Facebook and Twitter (@AccessWGBH)

WGBH Boston informs, inspires, and entertains millions through public
broadcasting, the Web, educational multimedia, and access services for
people with disabilities.


From cassonw at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 20:19:49 2010
From: cassonw at gmail.com (Bill)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:19:49 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi
Message-ID: <AANLkTim4t4EH==cO1YkvHUqbq5yp3qCcNYit_BXy7s0w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I will be taking a class in the hindi Language in the fall. I was wondering
if anyone else has taken the class or a similar one. If so, what challenges
did the class present and what did you do to overcome those challenges. The
one that comes to mind for me is the reading and writing. What did you do
for reading and writing assignments. Were you able to do them in braille? If
so, how did you produce the braille and turn in assignments? Your help would
be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bill

From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 23 21:21:27 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:21:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim4t4EH==cO1YkvHUqbq5yp3qCcNYit_BXy7s0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <966348.29546.qm@web53803.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Hello Bill,
Since I am from India, I actually speak Hindi and would be glad to assist you. Although I must confess that I do not know how to write Hindi in Braille so perhaps you could help me learn how to write my own language. lol However, if you need someone to speak the language with or have any other questions feel free to email me off list.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Mon, 8/23/10, Bill <cassonw at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Bill <cassonw at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Monday, August 23, 2010, 3:19 PM
> Hi,
> I will be taking a class in the hindi Language in the fall.
> I was wondering
> if anyone else has taken the class or a similar one. If so,
> what challenges
> did the class present and what did you do to overcome those
> challenges. The
> one that comes to mind for me is the reading and writing.
> What did you do
> for reading and writing assignments. Were you able to do
> them in braille? If
> so, how did you produce the braille and turn in
> assignments? Your help would
> be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From ccook01 at knology.net  Mon Aug 23 23:51:07 2010
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:51:07 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Alice,
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAPimgd9JHzREvUyTkwMMSxzCgAAAEAAAANgWEr7Fpp5Gj1t/l/lFU+QBAAAAAA==@knology.net>

Hello all,
Are any of you familiar with a software application called alice?
It is going to be used in my programming concepts class and I am wondering
if any of you have experience using it with jaws.





From amylsabo at comcast.net  Tue Aug 24 04:12:35 2010
From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 04:12:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2124588420.254479.1282623155020.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

hello jules,

thanks for posting this to the list. for using a online dictionary i have used websters.com and also dictionary.com for school stuff. both are accessible with jfw and work well. i hope this information is helpful for you. take care and, i will talk to you soon.


hugs,
from amy		

----- Original Message -----
From: Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:30:11 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
"define " and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
than the rest!

~Jewel

-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net

From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 24 04:30:17 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:30:17 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <2124588420.254479.1282623155020.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>
	<2124588420.254479.1282623155020.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <407E20BE7099411E9F3FAB3D1E661DD5@windows4c0ed96>

Hi all, I am wondering if there is a thesaurus on line people have liked?
Sometimes just finding an alternative word in something I am writing can
spur on my thinking.  Best, Ginnie

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Amy Sabo
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 9:13 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

hello jules,

thanks for posting this to the list. for using a online dictionary i have
used websters.com and also dictionary.com for school stuff. both are
accessible with jfw and work well. i hope this information is helpful for
you. take care and, i will talk to you soon.


hugs,
from amy		

----- Original Message -----
From: Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:30:11 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?

Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
"define " and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
than the rest!

~Jewel

-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.n
et
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
et



From mewhalen at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 04:40:30 2010
From: mewhalen at gmail.com (Meghan Whalen)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:40:30 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com><2124588420.254479.1282623155020.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<407E20BE7099411E9F3FAB3D1E661DD5@windows4c0ed96>
Message-ID: <F00958AF4C4C46E2801ACC6B2350AF53@YOURZVIRQM73LR>

There is one built into ms-word if you highlight the word and right click on 
it/bring up the applications menu.

Also, dictionary.com has a feature that will do the same thing, and I have 
found it to be quite useful at times.

Meghan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "V Nork" <ginisd at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?


> Hi all, I am wondering if there is a thesaurus on line people have liked?
> Sometimes just finding an alternative word in something I am writing can
> spur on my thinking.  Best, Ginnie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Amy Sabo
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 9:13 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
> hello jules,
>
> thanks for posting this to the list. for using a online dictionary i have
> used websters.com and also dictionary.com for school stuff. both are
> accessible with jfw and work well. i hope this information is helpful for
> you. take care and, i will talk to you soon.
>
>
> hugs,
> from amy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:30:11 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
>
> Hey guys, does anyone know a good online dictionary? I gotta do
> definitions for my English class, and I'm getting tired of Googling
> "define " and getting all these websites that I can't seem to
> find the definition on...how hard can it be to look up a definition?
> This is supposed to be an easy task, but it's turning into harder work
> than the rest!
>
> ~Jewel
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.n
> et
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ginisd%40sbcglobal.n
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mewhalen%40gmail.com
> 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 04:49:21 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 00:49:21 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille note as a display with jaws
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS326A0C61BDCF8B2AEAA858B830@phx.gbl>

Hi,
Does anyone know how to get the Apex to work with jaws 11 in windows 7 as a braille display?
Thanks
Rob Blachowicz

From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 06:06:20 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:06:20 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi
References: <AANLkTim4t4EH==cO1YkvHUqbq5yp3qCcNYit_BXy7s0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC9BC6612163460AB243094D58DD3AA3@Netbook>

I cannot tell you where to get this gem, but there is a voice called 
ScanSoft Lekha that speaks Hindi. She needs some work on her retroflex 
sounds and other issues, but she's tons better than shoonya, or zero!

Being that you're taking a language that, up to now anyway, is outside the 
box for most DRS's, you'll have to pay a classmate to describe the alphabet 
to you. I haven't taken an actual course in Hindi... Yet!

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill" <cassonw at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 13:19
Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi


> Hi,
> I will be taking a class in the hindi Language in the fall. I was 
> wondering
> if anyone else has taken the class or a similar one. If so, what 
> challenges
> did the class present and what did you do to overcome those challenges. 
> The
> one that comes to mind for me is the reading and writing. What did you do
> for reading and writing assignments. Were you able to do them in braille? 
> If
> so, how did you produce the braille and turn in assignments? Your help 
> would
> be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com 



From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 14:15:04 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:15:04 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille note as a display with jaws
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS326A0C61BDCF8B2AEAA858B830@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY130-DS326A0C61BDCF8B2AEAA858B830@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS21D809CDCB23116C14D160BA830@phx.gbl>

Hi, 

As of right now, I think it can be done via USB, but not via Bluetooth.
According to Humanware, FS needs to allow the Apex to work with Jaws. The
customer support rep I spoke with a few weeks back said to expect a patch
sometime, (he wasn't sure when), with the fix for this. Of course, when I
called FS, they said it was on Humanware's end... I haven't tried to hook
the display up via USB myself, though.

Liz 

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 




From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 24 14:28:24 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:28:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille note as a display with jaws
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS21D809CDCB23116C14D160BA830@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY130-DS326A0C61BDCF8B2AEAA858B830@phx.gbl>
	<SNT124-DS21D809CDCB23116C14D160BA830@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS2076B1ABF623FAF5FF14E08B830@phx.gbl>


The problem I am having is theres no other displays in the fs list other 
than their own displays.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Liz Bottner" <liziswhatis at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 10:15 AM
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Braille note as a display with jaws

> Hi,
>
> As of right now, I think it can be done via USB, but not via Bluetooth.
> According to Humanware, FS needs to allow the Apex to work with Jaws. The
> customer support rep I spoke with a few weeks back said to expect a patch
> sometime, (he wasn't sure when), with the fix for this. Of course, when I
> called FS, they said it was on Humanware's end... I haven't tried to hook
> the display up via USB myself, though.
>
> Liz
>
> email:
> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
> Visit my LiveJournal:
> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
> Follow me on Twitter:
> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca  Tue Aug 24 15:17:24 2010
From: sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca (sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:17:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
Message-ID: <20100824111724.5220nxdmkg8ck8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca>

Hi Joe,
This is really exciting. I can't wait to read it.

I couldn't agree with you more on your feelings of portrayals of blind  
characters in books and movies. My added frustration is that any  
competent blind characters are those who have lost vision later in  
life. Could someone please write a book about someone blind from birth  
who's also competent? I'd like a fully relateable character.
Just my thoughts.
Sarah


Quoting Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com>:

> Hello,
>
> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to quit
> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head for
> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that it
> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more than
> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>
> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind characters
> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed.  They're
> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can either
> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of my
> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback of
> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of my
> ramblings, right?
>
> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character should be
> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this person
> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience the
> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule out
> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a balanced
> prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic reactions in
> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to be
> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, I'd
> like to know this as well.
>
> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation in
> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously shared
> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel free to
> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question so
> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>
> Joe
>
> ***
>
> 	Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter would
> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his e-mail
> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the kind
> Christian and his family could do without.
> 	They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been right
> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a total
> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
> encounter.
> 	On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of them
> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out the
> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising plot.
> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids who
> would have already forgotten what they learned.
> 	Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish state
> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice Christian
> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
> 	"Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
> 	Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British accent
> emanating from it.
> 	"I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
> 	The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes riveted
> to the machine.
> 	"Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the phone.
> This is most urgent."
> 	Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it was
> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
> collected.
> 	"Hello," he croaked.
> 	"Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
> genuinely relieved.
> 	"Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
> 	"Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
> 	"We are not friends," Christian countered.
> 	"So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
> 	"You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
> 	"Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
> let me get to the purpose of my call."
> 	Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far preferable to
> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
> 	"One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
> 	"I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
> whisper.
> 	"I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
> 	"I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
> 	"You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity.  No
> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
> 	"I was told I could--"
> 	"You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend your
> allegiance never existed?"
> 	Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son, Aaron,
> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a newborn
> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had felt
> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could just
> get away?
> 	"One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
> 	"I beg your pardon?"
> 	"A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
> 	Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin to
> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, well,
> random!
> 	"What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
> 	Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
> eighteen years?"
> 	After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
> 	"Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy to
> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
> something?"
> 	"I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier brothers
> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
> 	"I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
> 	"Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will be
> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
> 	"And if I refuse?"
> 	"Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
> touch."
> 	The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in his
> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The nature
> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed with
> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered how
> long they had been monitoring his family.
>
> ***
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>





From frost at ecenet.com  Tue Aug 24 14:18:54 2010
From: frost at ecenet.com (Clarence and Tammy Frost)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:18:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] For Sale Lower Price Zoom-EX
Message-ID: <22AC0FEFE00247DCA262460CCC8F5CFB@tammy>

ABiSee Zoom-Ex - Portable Scanning, Reading, Real Time Magnification
(about 18 months old)
(paid $2,395.00 at Handy Tech North America)
(asking $500 or best offer)
Zoom-Ex is the seamless integration of an instant digital scanner and a lightning fast OCR. It allows you to convert any printed text into multiple accessible
formats like speech, large print, sound file, text file, etc. -within seconds. Zoom-Ex is easy to use, too: the foldable stand holds a digital scanning
camera that is always at the exact distance needed to create a clear image. Low vision users know exactly where to place the material to be read because
they can touch and feel L-shaped edges of the stand. Zoom-Ex works with any IBM compatible personal computer.
Zoom-Ex Is Four Powerful Tools In One:
List of 4 items
1. Instant Reader: It's the world's first instant book-to-speech tool-our proprietary OCR software provides lightning fast performance for real-time page-to-speech.
2. Smart Magnifier: It's a magnifier that eliminates the need for an X-Y table and delivers text wrapping on screen for easy reading.
3. Book Scanner-Reader: It's a fast 20ppm scanner (allowing you to keep books bound and intact) that provides you with OCR.
4. Real-time CCTV: This mode allows you to use Zoom-Ex as CCTV magnifier up to 12X on 19" monitor.
list end
Always Handy: Zoom-Ex Weighs just 1lb and folds up and fits in your laptop bag.
Zoom-Ex Features:
Astounding: Get real-time page-to-speech
Easy: Place your printed material under the Zoom-Ex camera and press a key on your keyboard. Within a few seconds your document is read aloud
Adjustable: Alter reading speed to your likening. Magnify text as much or as little as you need ( up to 40X)
Helpful: Highlights words as they are read
Useful: Enables user to print large font books
Fast: Scans up to 20 pages per minute
Accommodating: Place your document upside down, in landscape position, etc. Orientation of the page does not matter.
Versatile: Convert any printed text into multiple accessible formats like speech, large print, sound or text file, etc
Efficient: Provides fast forward and rewind capabilities
Multi-Lingual: Ability to read in 9 foreign languages
Minimum System Requirements
List of 6 items
. An IBM compatible personal computer
. 2 GHz Pentium or equivalent AMD processor
. 1 GB RAM Memory
. 1 GB free space on Hard Drive
. High Speed USB 2.0 port
. Microsoft Windows® XP, Vista (32 and 64 bit), Windows 7
list end
If you are interested in either of these products we may be reached by telephone at 320-396-4871 or email
frost at ecenet.com
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From jj at bestmidi.com  Tue Aug 24 02:17:52 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:17:52 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] iBills in Stock with Free Duracell Battery
Message-ID: <3DDE408CBDE74FD9AFB15CF13E3DC094@jage>

Hello. A T Guys is pleased to run a limited time special with the iBill Banknote Identifier. Receive a free Duracell AAA battery with each iBill purchased through September 7. The iBill is available for $99 plus actual shipping/handling charges, usually around $6.
Mention the free battery in the comments when placing your order. 

To place your order with any major credit card or Paypal, visit http://www.atguys.com or call 269-216-4798.

Don't forget to register for the A T Guys Summer of Prizes while you're there.

Thanks, and have a great week.

J.J. Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
A premier licensed Code Factory, Sendero, KNFB Reader, and iBill distributor
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From frost at ecenet.com  Tue Aug 24 14:14:09 2010
From: frost at ecenet.com (Clarence and Tammy Frost)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:14:09 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] for sale Lower Price Voice Sense
Message-ID: <466443DCE5EE45BB844A839E425E4813@tammy>

Hello Everyone:
I have for sale a barely used Voice Sense.  I am asking $1,100.00 or best offer.
GW Micro - Voice Sense
The Voice Sense is the smallest, lightest and most fashionable PDA for the visually impaired with a Perkins style keyboard for inputting information and
synthesized voice for outputting information.
It has multimedia functions: a Daisy talking book player, an MP3 player and voice recording capabilities. Wireless networking features (such as wireless
LAN and Bluetooth) are also available, as are many other Braille notetaker features.
The Voice Sense boasts a high speed CPU and large memory storage.
Hardware
List of 12 items
. Processor: PXA270, 540MHz
. Memory: 1GB (separate user data area), 192MB (128 RAM and 64 OS storage)
. OS: Windows CE.NET 5.0
. Ports: USB OTG (USB 2.0 Compatible), SD Slot, CF Slot
. Keyboard: Perkins style Braille keyboard
. Audio Output: Stereo Speakers, Headphone jack
. Audio Input: Internal condenser microphone, Microphone jack
. Battery: rechargeable, detachable, user-replaceable, lithium polymer, 12 hours continuous use
. Networking: Wireless LAN (IEEE 802.11b/g) Bluetooth 1.1
. FM Radio Receiver
. Dimensions: W 18.8cm (7.4") x D 7.7cm (3.6") x H 2.5cm (0.98")
. Weight: .58lbs (266g)
list end
Software
List of 19 items
. File Manager
. Word Processor
. Address Manager
. Schedule Manager
. E-mail
. Media Player
. FM Radio Tuner
. Web Browser
. Daisy Player
. Bluetooth Manager
. MSN Messenger
. Database Manager
. Calculator
. Date/Time
. Calendar
. Stopwatch
. Power Status
. OS Upgrade
. Context Sensitive Help
list end
Options
Connect a portable Braille display, such as the
SyncBraille,
for maximum Braille portability.
Package includes: Voice Sense, battery pack, carrying case, neck strap, AC power adapter, ear buds, mini-USB to standard USB cable, mini-USB to female USB
adapter cable, Braille Reference Guide, CD user manual.
If interested please contact Tammy at 320-396-4871 or email
frost at ecenet.com
Tammy Frost
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From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 21:11:13 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:11:13 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Molecular Bio Lab
Message-ID: <AANLkTinwxm0M+922Lkd7RJ+xN-2AMj2k-B6EVwAWSPPB@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, List,

This semester I'll be taking my first lab course (Well, actually my second
since the community college where I took Chemistry was epic fail in the area
of accommodations and I thus had to drop the lab). I'm taking Biological
Science 1 which is essentially Molecular Biology. I was wondering if anyone
familiar with the general content of a for-majors Bio course could offer
some tips and suggestions for gaining the most access to lab activities and
the most cooperation from lab coordinators. What did you do/need? How did
you get what you needed? What worked and what didn't? I'd love to hear your
experiences.

-Jamie

From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 22:47:15 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 18:47:15 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Instead of Cars, Jobs
Message-ID: <A77E530406494F2D9453B2B51734A9F2@Rufus>

See, instead of using current resources on distant future projects like the
blind driver challenge, the NFB could be using funds to pursue opportunities
like the one below, projects that actively find ways to put people into jobs
in the here and now.  I hope someone in Baltimore tracks these kinds of
opportunities:

 Department of Labor: Add Us In Initiative 

CFDA: 17.720

Deadline: September 1, 2010 

Amount: Estimated funds available: $2,300,000. Estimated grant range:
$500,000-$625,000. Estimated number of awards: Up to 4. 

Eligibility: Eligible consortiums consisting of four organization types,
including an association of targeted business owners or other similar
entity, a
disability-serving organization, a local workforce investment board, and a
youth-serving organization (See full announcement for additional
information.)


Description: This program provides support to eligible consortia efforts to
design, implement, and evaluate innovative systems models that support
integrated
employment opportunities for people with disabilities within targeted
businesses. Priority will be given to proposed activities that integrate the
following
objectives: increase the ability of targeted businesses to employ adults and
youth with disabilities; develop and evaluate replicable models, strategies
and policies that would ensure that youth and adults from targeted
populations with disabilities have access to a broader range of employment
and mentoring
opportunities; and, form and strengthen connections between targeted
businesses, diversity-serving organizations, youth-serving organizations,
and disability-serving
organizations, building a national and local network of experts skilled in
serving individuals with disabilities.

Contact: 
Cassandra Mitchell,
202-693-4570 



Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing



From nabs.president at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 23:21:04 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 17:21:04 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
Message-ID: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

So this isn't directly related to NABS, but I wanted to ask you for
some brainstorming help and start a discussion which I think we will
all find fun and personally relevant:

As you may know, I'm working on my Ph.D. in social psychology. One of
my co-grad students and I are designing an experiment to investigate
the effects of blindness simulations (i.e. activities where people
blindfold themselves and stumble around a room for a few minutes, eat
a meal, etc.) on sighted people's attitudes and actions toward blind
people. More generally, we're interested in finding out how sighted
people try to understand the perspective of being blind and how those
attempts affect their beliefs about blindness. Based on
perspective-taking theory and past research (as well as my personal
experience with blindness simulation exercises), we are predicting
that when people do blindness simulations, they may like us more and
express more sympathy and desire to help the blind, but that they will
also think of the blind as less competent or capable, since they just
went through the frightening and disconcerting experience of "being
blind" and might be inclined to think that this is how real blind
people feel and act.

We have some ways of measuring people's attitudes toward the blind,
but we'd also like to set up a real interaction with a real blind
person and assess how sighted people treat a real person, and if
people act differently toward a real blind person when they have
undergone a blindness simulation. We think that people who do the
simulation might tend to be more excessively or obnoxiously helpful,
or less respectful, toward a blind person. What we're trying to figure
out is how to measure this "over-helpfulness" in a way that shows that
it's clearly undesirable. For example, we can't just keep track of how
many people try to help the blind person and how many people don't,
since people might argue that helping the blind is a good thing and
that maybe these simulations are actually a good idea.

So my question for you guys is, in your experience, what distinguishes
people who are appropriately helpful from people who are obnoxiously
so? Can you think of any good ways we can quantify these kinds of
undesirable interactions, which I know we've all had at times with
members of the public?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Arielle


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 23:37:04 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:37:04 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2BA0BCEE6A8F4F0B991CA0522B30E602@Rufus>

For some reason, my patience is generous when it comes to people offering
assistance.  My only real trigger is when people grab hold of me.  Insisting
on providing assistance is something I've always chalked up to human
instinct.  I think it might be something blind people are just as likely to
exhibit as anyone else.  Grab my arm, however, and you're likely to get
dealt with.  Just last week this old lady grabbed my arm in church in her
attempt to lead me across a classroom.  I did not yank my arm away or
anything that rude, but I did resist her help and firmly said I was okay
until she let go.  I feel Washington DC is a great place to learn all about
personal space.  Perhaps the environment has made me grow abnormally
cautious, but I'd like to think that in general people do not appreciate
being touched without being asked or outside of what is socially acceptable.
Other than physical contact though, I generally do not mind people going out
of their way to help.  It helps me believe the best in people.  I do not
always need or want the assistance, but there have been several times when
their offer to help has sparked some good, random conversations that provide
an excellent means to educate people on what blind people can do for
themselves.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:21 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Cc: jason.gwinn at colorado.edu
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions

Hi all,

So this isn't directly related to NABS, but I wanted to ask you for
some brainstorming help and start a discussion which I think we will
all find fun and personally relevant:

As you may know, I'm working on my Ph.D. in social psychology. One of
my co-grad students and I are designing an experiment to investigate
the effects of blindness simulations (i.e. activities where people
blindfold themselves and stumble around a room for a few minutes, eat
a meal, etc.) on sighted people's attitudes and actions toward blind
people. More generally, we're interested in finding out how sighted
people try to understand the perspective of being blind and how those
attempts affect their beliefs about blindness. Based on
perspective-taking theory and past research (as well as my personal
experience with blindness simulation exercises), we are predicting
that when people do blindness simulations, they may like us more and
express more sympathy and desire to help the blind, but that they will
also think of the blind as less competent or capable, since they just
went through the frightening and disconcerting experience of "being
blind" and might be inclined to think that this is how real blind
people feel and act.

We have some ways of measuring people's attitudes toward the blind,
but we'd also like to set up a real interaction with a real blind
person and assess how sighted people treat a real person, and if
people act differently toward a real blind person when they have
undergone a blindness simulation. We think that people who do the
simulation might tend to be more excessively or obnoxiously helpful,
or less respectful, toward a blind person. What we're trying to figure
out is how to measure this "over-helpfulness" in a way that shows that
it's clearly undesirable. For example, we can't just keep track of how
many people try to help the blind person and how many people don't,
since people might argue that helping the blind is a good thing and
that maybe these simulations are actually a good idea.

So my question for you guys is, in your experience, what distinguishes
people who are appropriately helpful from people who are obnoxiously
so? Can you think of any good ways we can quantify these kinds of
undesirable interactions, which I know we've all had at times with
members of the public?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Arielle

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From trising at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 24 23:53:50 2010
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:53:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31A4ED77B3834C60B4D7E69AF4EDCFB8@user6389c7a3c9>

    I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever they think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and 
actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses are near so you can actually make your own choices. Others 
might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions 
what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a friend or family member what I want as if I am not there, I 
answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants a large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon 
as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it sounds silly.
    At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the street in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man 
who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over. My husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We 
finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting to him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going 
to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
    Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that is between several feet, to several store lengths away. We 
either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them to stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the 
obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact an obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an 
obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt without finding it.
Terri Wilcox 



From pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 25 00:12:04 2010
From: pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:12:04 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
References: <A77E530406494F2D9453B2B51734A9F2@Rufus>
	<AANLkTik9a=tUdKLWqgsRcZiCqten-66pF7qdgAFv09Z3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01cb43ea$26fb9020$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good evening everyone,

    Cars drivable by a blind person can mean more employment opportunities. 
In another ten years or so it could be common to see blind cab drivers, 
blind bus drivers, blind engineers, and blind pilots to name a few. If you 
take the time to study and understand the goals of the Blind Driver 
Challenge you will observe that the aims and goals of the NFB are all 
interconnected. For those who don't know there is now a Web site dedicated 
solly to the Blind Driver Challenge. The URL is:
http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org

        The site contains lots of information about this dynamic project; 
one I imagined and shared with others as far back as 1968.  Creating new 
employment possibilities is just one facet of this endeavor. Remember that 
the next time the bus or your paratransit vehicle is late or fails to show 
and you're forced to travel on their schedule, not your own. All the best.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "Writer's Division Mailing List" 
<stylist at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs


Who says the NFB can't persue both? The NFB has been working hard for
*both* jobs for blind people and the accessible car project. Why can't
we have both? I just don't understand this hostility toward the
project to create a car that is accessible to the blind. It is
interesting, and may someday produce easier transportation for the
blind, which will in turn allow for more jobs for the blind. Two birds
with one stone! For example, I worked as a nanny. One of the reasons I
would not be able to work as a nanny now (as verbalized by the few
families who took the time to interview me after seeing my white cane)
was that I did not have reliable transportation. If there was an
emergency, I could not simply hop in the car with their child/ren and
rush to the emergency room. Nor could I drive to the child's school on
the drop of a dime to pick them up if they got sick or were in
trouble. If there were a car that I could drive, this would not be a
valid point. So, having a blind-friendly car would create jobs!

My two cents,
Jewel

On 8/24/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> See, instead of using current resources on distant future projects like 
> the
> blind driver challenge, the NFB could be using funds to pursue 
> opportunities
> like the one below, projects that actively find ways to put people into 
> jobs
> in the here and now.  I hope someone in Baltimore tracks these kinds of
> opportunities:
>
>  Department of Labor: Add Us In Initiative
>
> CFDA: 17.720
>
> Deadline: September 1, 2010
>
> Amount: Estimated funds available: $2,300,000. Estimated grant range:
> $500,000-$625,000. Estimated number of awards: Up to 4.
>
> Eligibility: Eligible consortiums consisting of four organization types,
> including an association of targeted business owners or other similar
> entity, a
> disability-serving organization, a local workforce investment board, and a
> youth-serving organization (See full announcement for additional
> information.)
>
>
> Description: This program provides support to eligible consortia efforts 
> to
> design, implement, and evaluate innovative systems models that support
> integrated
> employment opportunities for people with disabilities within targeted
> businesses. Priority will be given to proposed activities that integrate 
> the
> following
> objectives: increase the ability of targeted businesses to employ adults 
> and
> youth with disabilities; develop and evaluate replicable models, 
> strategies
> and policies that would ensure that youth and adults from targeted
> populations with disabilities have access to a broader range of employment
> and mentoring
> opportunities; and, form and strengthen connections between targeted
> businesses, diversity-serving organizations, youth-serving organizations,
> and disability-serving
> organizations, building a national and local network of experts skilled in
> serving individuals with disabilities.
>
> Contact:
> Cassandra Mitchell,
> 202-693-4570
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> stylist:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

_______________________________________________
Writers Division web site:
http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>

stylist mailing list
stylist at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
stylist:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net 



From jj at bestmidi.com  Wed Aug 25 01:10:06 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:10:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
References: <A77E530406494F2D9453B2B51734A9F2@Rufus><AANLkTik9a=tUdKLWqgsRcZiCqten-66pF7qdgAFv09Z3@mail.gmail.com>
	<001d01cb43ea$26fb9020$4001a8c0@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <109C1F0917BA4CA0B7DA2F28482E0437@jage>

To me, the push for the Blind Driver Challenge isn't about actually driving. 
While this may be possible in 10, 20, 30? years or more, there are still 
plenty of obstacles to overcome before it becomes a reality. Where the real 
strength of this program seems to be is to advance technology which may 
benefit the blind. GPS was developed for the military but now is ubiquitous 
in civilian society. Speech synthesizers, OCR, IVR systems, and much more 
all came out of far-flung ideas but now are used much beyond their original 
intended market segments.

While we won't be driving in the cities tomorrow, there's a plethora of 
potential new technologies which could benefit us. Everything from new ways 
of presenting visual information either tactually or verbally, safety 
systems for preventing colisions, or improved navigational aids is possible. 
These could very well have the potential to open up new employment arenas in 
places far beyond the highway.

As a side note, I do hope we are pursuing grant money like what Joe has 
posted here. In fact, I believe we have people in Baltimore who do exactly 
this, so you may consider forwarding this information on to them if they 
don't have it already.

One of the cool things about being an organization this large is that we're 
able to take a multi-faceted approach to solving problems and creating 
opportunities. And while I may not agree with every idea that is put forth, 
I know that I both have the opportunity to find an idea I do agree with or 
propose my own.

J.J.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue1 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs


> Good evening everyone,
>
>    Cars drivable by a blind person can mean more employment opportunities.
> In another ten years or so it could be common to see blind cab drivers,
> blind bus drivers, blind engineers, and blind pilots to name a few. If you
> take the time to study and understand the goals of the Blind Driver
> Challenge you will observe that the aims and goals of the NFB are all
> interconnected. For those who don't know there is now a Web site dedicated
> solly to the Blind Driver Challenge. The URL is:
> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>
>        The site contains lots of information about this dynamic project;
> one I imagined and shared with others as far back as 1968.  Creating new
> employment possibilities is just one facet of this endeavor. Remember that
> the next time the bus or your paratransit vehicle is late or fails to show
> and you're forced to travel on their schedule, not your own. All the best.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "Writer's Division Mailing List"
> <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
>
>
> Who says the NFB can't persue both? The NFB has been working hard for
> *both* jobs for blind people and the accessible car project. Why can't
> we have both? I just don't understand this hostility toward the
> project to create a car that is accessible to the blind. It is
> interesting, and may someday produce easier transportation for the
> blind, which will in turn allow for more jobs for the blind. Two birds
> with one stone! For example, I worked as a nanny. One of the reasons I
> would not be able to work as a nanny now (as verbalized by the few
> families who took the time to interview me after seeing my white cane)
> was that I did not have reliable transportation. If there was an
> emergency, I could not simply hop in the car with their child/ren and
> rush to the emergency room. Nor could I drive to the child's school on
> the drop of a dime to pick them up if they got sick or were in
> trouble. If there were a car that I could drive, this would not be a
> valid point. So, having a blind-friendly car would create jobs!
>
> My two cents,
> Jewel
>
> On 8/24/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> See, instead of using current resources on distant future projects like
>> the
>> blind driver challenge, the NFB could be using funds to pursue
>> opportunities
>> like the one below, projects that actively find ways to put people into
>> jobs
>> in the here and now.  I hope someone in Baltimore tracks these kinds of
>> opportunities:
>>
>>  Department of Labor: Add Us In Initiative
>>
>> CFDA: 17.720
>>
>> Deadline: September 1, 2010
>>
>> Amount: Estimated funds available: $2,300,000. Estimated grant range:
>> $500,000-$625,000. Estimated number of awards: Up to 4.
>>
>> Eligibility: Eligible consortiums consisting of four organization types,
>> including an association of targeted business owners or other similar
>> entity, a
>> disability-serving organization, a local workforce investment board, and 
>> a
>> youth-serving organization (See full announcement for additional
>> information.)
>>
>>
>> Description: This program provides support to eligible consortia efforts
>> to
>> design, implement, and evaluate innovative systems models that support
>> integrated
>> employment opportunities for people with disabilities within targeted
>> businesses. Priority will be given to proposed activities that integrate
>> the
>> following
>> objectives: increase the ability of targeted businesses to employ adults
>> and
>> youth with disabilities; develop and evaluate replicable models,
>> strategies
>> and policies that would ensure that youth and adults from targeted
>> populations with disabilities have access to a broader range of 
>> employment
>> and mentoring
>> opportunities; and, form and strengthen connections between targeted
>> businesses, diversity-serving organizations, youth-serving organizations,
>> and disability-serving
>> organizations, building a national and local network of experts skilled 
>> in
>> serving individuals with disabilities.
>>
>> Contact:
>> Cassandra Mitchell,
>> 202-693-4570
>>
>>
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>> sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Writers Division web site:
>> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org 
>> <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>>
>> stylist mailing list
>> stylist at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> stylist:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Writers Division web site:
> http://www.nfb-writers-division.org <http://www.nfb-writers-division.org/>
>
> stylist mailing list
> stylist at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/stylist_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> stylist:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/stylist_nfbnet.org/pdonahue1%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
> 



From clb5590 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 01:20:34 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:20:34 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <31A4ED77B3834C60B4D7E69AF4EDCFB8@user6389c7a3c9>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
	<31A4ED77B3834C60B4D7E69AF4EDCFB8@user6389c7a3c9>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikyuAeXTJBXwVaO8rK48===xMWiW5S4i+MiVH7M@mail.gmail.com>

I think some good ways to quantify over helpfulness would be to count
how many times the blind person is physically touched. Also, the
number of times the sighted person offering help asks something along
the lines of, "are you sure?" or repeats their request to help after
the blind person has clearly said no.

Also, i think that Joe brought up a good point. Over helpfulness is a
product of the helper's offers and the feelings of the one being
helped, so maybe a discomfort scale, or something of the sort, could
be given to the blind person after the incident. Sorry, i'm not really
familiar with any specific ones, but i'm sure they're out there. I
think this would be good, because some blind people honestly aren't
bothered by many offers to help whereas some become frustrated. There
could be a problem if the same blind person is used in simulation,
because after a while, they may be not as frustrated, because it is
just a study, or more frustrated because they have been put through
the simulation multiple times.

Cindy

On 8/24/10, trising <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>     I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever they
> think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and
> actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses are
> near so you can actually make your own choices. Others
> might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our
> brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions
> what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a friend
> or family member what I want as if I am not there, I
> answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants a
> large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon
> as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it sounds
> silly.
>     At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the street
> in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man
> who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over. My
> husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We
> finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting to
> him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going
> to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
>     Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that is
> between several feet, to several store lengths away. We
> either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them to
> stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the
> obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact an
> obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an
> obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt
> without finding it.
> Terri Wilcox
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


From kc2992a at student.american.edu  Wed Aug 25 01:42:48 2010
From: kc2992a at student.american.edu (Katy Carroll)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:42:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikyuAeXTJBXwVaO8rK48===xMWiW5S4i+MiVH7M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
	<31A4ED77B3834C60B4D7E69AF4EDCFB8@user6389c7a3c9>
	<AANLkTikyuAeXTJBXwVaO8rK48===xMWiW5S4i+MiVH7M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinp+JEWY6GbSq3o+_dyBRjBUYP3i8EdFZd6qyrC@mail.gmail.com>

I think Cindy's ideas are very good. Maybe you could have a point-system to
incorporate how many times a blind  person is touched, the discomfort scale
number of the blind person, the number of times the assistant would ask, Are
you sure? (as Cindy suggested), perhaps take-away points if the assistant
attempts to engage in "normal" conversation, offers his/her elbow (the
proper sighted-guide method), etc.

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think some good ways to quantify over helpfulness would be to count
> how many times the blind person is physically touched. Also, the
> number of times the sighted person offering help asks something along
> the lines of, "are you sure?" or repeats their request to help after
> the blind person has clearly said no.
>
> Also, i think that Joe brought up a good point. Over helpfulness is a
> product of the helper's offers and the feelings of the one being
> helped, so maybe a discomfort scale, or something of the sort, could
> be given to the blind person after the incident. Sorry, i'm not really
> familiar with any specific ones, but i'm sure they're out there. I
> think this would be good, because some blind people honestly aren't
> bothered by many offers to help whereas some become frustrated. There
> could be a problem if the same blind person is used in simulation,
> because after a while, they may be not as frustrated, because it is
> just a study, or more frustrated because they have been put through
> the simulation multiple times.
>
> Cindy
>
> On 8/24/10, trising <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >     I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever they
> > think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and
> > actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses are
> > near so you can actually make your own choices. Others
> > might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our
> > brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions
> > what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a
> friend
> > or family member what I want as if I am not there, I
> > answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants a
> > large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon
> > as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it sounds
> > silly.
> >     At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the
> street
> > in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man
> > who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over.
> My
> > husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We
> > finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting to
> > him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going
> > to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
> >     Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that is
> > between several feet, to several store lengths away. We
> > either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them to
> > stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the
> > obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact an
> > obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an
> > obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt
> > without finding it.
> > Terri Wilcox
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
> >
>
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>
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>



-- 
Kathryn CARROLL
BlueLaw International LLP
703-647-7508
Cell: 631-521-3018

From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Wed Aug 25 02:00:05 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:00:05 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
Message-ID: <20100825020005.23082.42107@web1>

I'd still take points away for "offering an elbow." I've seen sighted 
people walk up to me, stand near me, and do this funny little chicken 
wing thing as they way "want and elbow?" or "want help?" It's a bit 
ridiculous. I'd much rather they start by asking me if want my help, 
hear my answer, and leave me alone if I don't want help or ask me how I 
want them to help me if I do.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> I think Cindy's ideas are very good. Maybe you could have a point-system to
> incorporate how many times a blind  person is touched, the discomfort scale
> number of the blind person, the number of times the assistant would ask, Are
> you sure? (as Cindy suggested), perhaps take-away points if the assistant
> attempts to engage in "normal" conversation, offers his/her elbow (the
> proper sighted-guide method), etc.

> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:

>> I think some good ways to quantify over helpfulness would be to count
>> how many times the blind person is physically touched. Also, the
>> number of times the sighted person offering help asks something along
>> the lines of, "are you sure?" or repeats their request to help after
>> the blind person has clearly said no.

>> Also, i think that Joe brought up a good point. Over helpfulness is a
>> product of the helper's offers and the feelings of the one being
>> helped, so maybe a discomfort scale, or something of the sort, could
>> be given to the blind person after the incident. Sorry, i'm not really
>> familiar with any specific ones, but i'm sure they're out there. I
>> think this would be good, because some blind people honestly aren't
>> bothered by many offers to help whereas some become frustrated. There
>> could be a problem if the same blind person is used in simulation,
>> because after a while, they may be not as frustrated, because it is
>> just a study, or more frustrated because they have been put through
>> the simulation multiple times.

>> Cindy

>> On 8/24/10, trising <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>     I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever they
>>> think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and
>>> actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses are
>>> near so you can actually make your own choices. Others
>>> might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our
>>> brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions
>>> what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a
>> friend
>>> or family member what I want as if I am not there, I
>>> answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants a
>>> large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon
>>> as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it sounds
>>> silly.
>>>     At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the
>> street
>>> in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man
>>> who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over.
>> My
>>> husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We
>>> finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting to
>>> him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going
>>> to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
>>>     Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that is
>>> between several feet, to several store lengths away. We
>>> either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them to
>>> stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the
>>> obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact an
>>> obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an
>>> obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt
>>> without finding it.
>>> Terri Wilcox


>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:

>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com


>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:

>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu




> --
> Kathryn CARROLL
> BlueLaw International LLP
> 703-647-7508
> Cell: 631-521-3018
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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-- 
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www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From kc2992a at student.american.edu  Wed Aug 25 02:18:08 2010
From: kc2992a at student.american.edu (Katy Carroll)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:18:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <20100825020005.23082.42107@web1>
References: <20100825020005.23082.42107@web1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimGQHVq3sdFQFPBb_VO2ac2BBup5n74Syzk_L0C@mail.gmail.com>

Good point, Jedi. i didn't finish my thought in the email, but I wanted to
give points to people who didn't just grab you or something like that.

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:00 PM, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:

> I'd still take points away for "offering an elbow." I've seen sighted
> people walk up to me, stand near me, and do this funny little chicken wing
> thing as they way "want and elbow?" or "want help?" It's a bit ridiculous.
> I'd much rather they start by asking me if want my help, hear my answer, and
> leave me alone if I don't want help or ask me how I want them to help me if
> I do.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>
>  I think Cindy's ideas are very good. Maybe you could have a point-system
>> to
>> incorporate how many times a blind  person is touched, the discomfort
>> scale
>> number of the blind person, the number of times the assistant would ask,
>> Are
>> you sure? (as Cindy suggested), perhaps take-away points if the assistant
>> attempts to engage in "normal" conversation, offers his/her elbow (the
>> proper sighted-guide method), etc.
>>
>
>  On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>
>  I think some good ways to quantify over helpfulness would be to count
>>> how many times the blind person is physically touched. Also, the
>>> number of times the sighted person offering help asks something along
>>> the lines of, "are you sure?" or repeats their request to help after
>>> the blind person has clearly said no.
>>>
>>
>  Also, i think that Joe brought up a good point. Over helpfulness is a
>>> product of the helper's offers and the feelings of the one being
>>> helped, so maybe a discomfort scale, or something of the sort, could
>>> be given to the blind person after the incident. Sorry, i'm not really
>>> familiar with any specific ones, but i'm sure they're out there. I
>>> think this would be good, because some blind people honestly aren't
>>> bothered by many offers to help whereas some become frustrated. There
>>> could be a problem if the same blind person is used in simulation,
>>> because after a while, they may be not as frustrated, because it is
>>> just a study, or more frustrated because they have been put through
>>> the simulation multiple times.
>>>
>>
>  Cindy
>>>
>>
>  On 8/24/10, trising <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>    I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever they
>>>> think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and
>>>> actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses
>>>> are
>>>> near so you can actually make your own choices. Others
>>>> might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our
>>>> brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions
>>>> what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a
>>>>
>>> friend
>>>
>>>> or family member what I want as if I am not there, I
>>>> answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants
>>>> a
>>>> large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon
>>>> as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it
>>>> sounds
>>>> silly.
>>>>    At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the
>>>>
>>> street
>>>
>>>> in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man
>>>> who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over.
>>>>
>>> My
>>>
>>>> husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We
>>>> finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting to
>>>> him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going
>>>> to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
>>>>    Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that is
>>>> between several feet, to several store lengths away. We
>>>> either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them to
>>>> stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the
>>>> obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact an
>>>> obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an
>>>> obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt
>>>> without finding it.
>>>> Terri Wilcox
>>>>
>>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>
>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>
>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>  --
>> Kathryn CARROLL
>> BlueLaw International LLP
>> 703-647-7508
>> Cell: 631-521-3018
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
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>>
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
Kathryn CARROLL
BlueLaw International LLP
703-647-7508
Cell: 631-521-3018

From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 02:30:53 2010
From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:30:53 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <20100825020005.23082.42107@web1>
References: <20100825020005.23082.42107@web1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfBdUO6nM7npuXv8XWgnCzWVLD4WvY=TKKz0Wm@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Arielle,
  Very interesting study! I like Cindy's ideas-- The number of times a
blind person is physically touched and the number of times the helper
insists on offering assistance even after the blind person has said
"no" are both good ways to quantify excessive helpfulness. As the
subjective perception of over-helpfulness can vary widely from person
to person, it may be a bit more difficult to make generalizations
based on what the blind person in this study (which I suppose might be
you) feels, but a discomfort scale is definitely worth including.
Also, it may be a good idea to record the interaction and have another
blind person rate his level of discomfort if he were in the same
situation so that you can establish some sort of interrater
reliability, although I realize that this may not be very feasible.
Overall, I think your hypotheses make a lot of sense and that you are
likely to get very interesting results. Good luck and keep me posted
about how it goes!
   Katie


On 8/24/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> I'd still take points away for "offering an elbow." I've seen sighted
> people walk up to me, stand near me, and do this funny little chicken
> wing thing as they way "want and elbow?" or "want help?" It's a bit
> ridiculous. I'd much rather they start by asking me if want my help,
> hear my answer, and leave me alone if I don't want help or ask me how I
> want them to help me if I do.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> I think Cindy's ideas are very good. Maybe you could have a point-system
>> to
>> incorporate how many times a blind  person is touched, the discomfort
>> scale
>> number of the blind person, the number of times the assistant would ask,
>> Are
>> you sure? (as Cindy suggested), perhaps take-away points if the assistant
>> attempts to engage in "normal" conversation, offers his/her elbow (the
>> proper sighted-guide method), etc.
>
>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I think some good ways to quantify over helpfulness would be to count
>>> how many times the blind person is physically touched. Also, the
>>> number of times the sighted person offering help asks something along
>>> the lines of, "are you sure?" or repeats their request to help after
>>> the blind person has clearly said no.
>
>>> Also, i think that Joe brought up a good point. Over helpfulness is a
>>> product of the helper's offers and the feelings of the one being
>>> helped, so maybe a discomfort scale, or something of the sort, could
>>> be given to the blind person after the incident. Sorry, i'm not really
>>> familiar with any specific ones, but i'm sure they're out there. I
>>> think this would be good, because some blind people honestly aren't
>>> bothered by many offers to help whereas some become frustrated. There
>>> could be a problem if the same blind person is used in simulation,
>>> because after a while, they may be not as frustrated, because it is
>>> just a study, or more frustrated because they have been put through
>>> the simulation multiple times.
>
>>> Cindy
>
>>> On 8/24/10, trising <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>     I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever they
>>>> think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and
>>>> actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses
>>>> are
>>>> near so you can actually make your own choices. Others
>>>> might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our
>>>> brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions
>>>> what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a
>>> friend
>>>> or family member what I want as if I am not there, I
>>>> answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants
>>>> a
>>>> large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon
>>>> as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it
>>>> sounds
>>>> silly.
>>>>     At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the
>>> street
>>>> in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man
>>>> who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over.
>>> My
>>>> husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We
>>>> finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting to
>>>> him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going
>>>> to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
>>>>     Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that
>>>> is
>>>> between several feet, to several store lengths away. We
>>>> either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them to
>>>> stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the
>>>> obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact an
>>>> obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an
>>>> obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt
>>>> without finding it.
>>>> Terri Wilcox
>
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu
>
>
>
>
>> --
>> Kathryn CARROLL
>> BlueLaw International LLP
>> 703-647-7508
>> Cell: 631-521-3018
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>> nabs-l:
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>
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> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
> _______________________________________________
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From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net  Wed Aug 25 02:50:25 2010
From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 22:50:25 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Jamie's Question
Message-ID: <000801cb4400$4642e8f0$9560c747@BRIAN>

Jamie how old are you?  Are you a biology major?  Are you totally blind?  What college do you attend?  Are you on facebook?  Do you have friends at school?  You sound really cool.

From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 03:17:31 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 23:17:31 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Jamie's Question
In-Reply-To: <000801cb4400$4642e8f0$9560c747@BRIAN>
References: <000801cb4400$4642e8f0$9560c747@BRIAN>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikWCPgW9UbrEwzU6PhYj8jKAUcPjg5PZ963rYiC@mail.gmail.com>

Um, not exactly what i was expecting, but okay, always willing to get to
know people. Here are my answers to your questions in the order you asked
the.

20, no, not quite, FSU, yes but more active on Twitter, yes of course, and
thank you! :)

On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Brian Hatgelakas <
brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:

> Jamie how old are you?  Are you a biology major?  Are you totally blind?
>  What college do you attend?  Are you on facebook?  Do you have friends at
> school?  You sound really cool.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>

From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 25 03:50:32 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 20:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] Instead of Cars, Jobs
In-Reply-To: <A77E530406494F2D9453B2B51734A9F2@Rufus>
Message-ID: <509630.63077.qm@web30901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You are preaching to the quire… I support and validate this post.

--- On Tue, 8/24/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Instead of Cars, Jobs
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, "'Writer's Division Mailing List'" <stylist at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Tuesday, August 24, 2010, 6:47 PM
> See, instead of using current
> resources on distant future projects like the
> blind driver challenge, the NFB could be using funds to
> pursue opportunities
> like the one below, projects that actively find ways to put
> people into jobs
> in the here and now.  I hope someone in Baltimore
> tracks these kinds of
> opportunities:
> 
>  Department of Labor: Add Us In Initiative 
> 
> CFDA: 17.720
> 
> Deadline: September 1, 2010 
> 
> Amount: Estimated funds available: $2,300,000. Estimated
> grant range:
> $500,000-$625,000. Estimated number of awards: Up to 4. 
> 
> Eligibility: Eligible consortiums consisting of four
> organization types,
> including an association of targeted business owners or
> other similar
> entity, a
> disability-serving organization, a local workforce
> investment board, and a
> youth-serving organization (See full announcement for
> additional
> information.)
> 
> 
> Description: This program provides support to eligible
> consortia efforts to
> design, implement, and evaluate innovative systems models
> that support
> integrated
> employment opportunities for people with disabilities
> within targeted
> businesses. Priority will be given to proposed activities
> that integrate the
> following
> objectives: increase the ability of targeted businesses to
> employ adults and
> youth with disabilities; develop and evaluate replicable
> models, strategies
> and policies that would ensure that youth and adults from
> targeted
> populations with disabilities have access to a broader
> range of employment
> and mentoring
> opportunities; and, form and strengthen connections between
> targeted
> businesses, diversity-serving organizations, youth-serving
> organizations,
> and disability-serving
> organizations, building a national and local network of
> experts skilled in
> serving individuals with disabilities.
> 
> Contact: 
> Cassandra Mitchell,
> 202-693-4570 
> 
> 
> 
> Joe
> 
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
> their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
> all."--Sam Ewing
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net  Wed Aug 25 04:50:38 2010
From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 00:50:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Jamie look me up on Face Book.
Message-ID: <000801cb4411$1129b570$9560c747@BRIAN>

Look me up on Face Book my email is brian.hatgelakas at verzizon.net.  You are so lucky to be in a warm climate.  I am a broadcast journalism alumn who is living in Pittsburgh and I'd love to move south for the weather.

From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 05:05:41 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 01:05:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Jamie look me up on Face Book.
In-Reply-To: <000801cb4411$1129b570$9560c747@BRIAN>
References: <000801cb4411$1129b570$9560c747@BRIAN>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikMf5+UFhd-gJeczeawQ2wK6m8DTb=OBNaub_8c@mail.gmail.com>

The weather may sound appealing, but trust me, blind people in general are
better off outside of Florida. Accessibility here is terrible in terms of
transit and general road construction.

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:50 AM, Brian Hatgelakas <
brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net> wrote:

> Look me up on Face Book my email is brian.hatgelakas at verzizon.net.  You
> are so lucky to be in a warm climate.  I am a broadcast journalism alumn who
> is living in Pittsburgh and I'd love to move south for the weather.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>

From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 14:15:20 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:15:20 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <20100824111724.5220nxdmkg8ck8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus>
	<20100824111724.5220nxdmkg8ck8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiniFYMJRypWgU6ZET4A0me1duJBCxwzUBpi+4H9@mail.gmail.com>

Joe,
  This book sounds awesome.  Really awesome.  The whole blind thing
aside, I think it's right up my alley.  And that brings me to an
important point.  Heaven knows we need positive portrayals of blind
people in literature.  But, and I'm not saying don't do it, were I in
your place I probably wouldn't.  I know it's good to "write what you
know", but, because you know so much firsthand about blindness, and if
I'm understanding you right that's not even supposed to be close to
the main plot of the novel, I think you may run the risk of amplifying
that secondary subplot, even subconsciously.  I know I would.  Just a
thought.
  Looking forward to reading more of this,
Kirt
P.s.  If and when this gets published, I'm so totally buying it.

On 8/24/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca <sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> This is really exciting. I can't wait to read it.
>
> I couldn't agree with you more on your feelings of portrayals of blind
> characters in books and movies. My added frustration is that any
> competent blind characters are those who have lost vision later in
> life. Could someone please write a book about someone blind from birth
> who's also competent? I'd like a fully relateable character.
> Just my thoughts.
> Sarah
>
>
> Quoting Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com>:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've decided to
>> quit
>> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering in my head for
>> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can tell you that it
>> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that fight for more
>> than
>> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think Stephen King
>> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>>
>> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to blind characters
>> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been disappointed.  They're
>> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
>> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can
>> either
>> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was not part of my
>> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the easy fallback of
>> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very good means of
>> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family bought a copy of
>> my
>> ramblings, right?
>>
>> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind character should
>> be
>> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this
>> person
>> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able to come out
>> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to experience
>> the
>> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in itself rule
>> out
>> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of emphasizing
>> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking for a balanced
>> prospective between educating in a positive light and realistic reactions
>> in
>> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, something to
>> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and continues to
>> be
>> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
>> stereotypes according to how people interpret the character's actions, I'd
>> like to know this as well.
>>
>> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it anywhere, but by
>> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your participation in
>> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously
>> shared
>> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so please feel free
>> to
>> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my original question so
>> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews off my back.
>> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> ***
>>
>> 	Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
>> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter
>> would
>> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his
>> e-mail
>> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
>> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
>> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing news of the kind
>> Christian and his family could do without.
>> 	They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never guessed the
>> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been
>> right
>> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would come as a total
>> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the inevitable
>> encounter.
>> 	On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in the first
>> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as so many of them
>> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen his family out
>> the
>> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising
>> plot.
>> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to his writing
>> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high school kids
>> who
>> would have already forgotten what they learned.
>> 	Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
>> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In his feverish
>> state
>> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in progress.  The
>> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a voice Christian
>> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
>> 	"Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
>> 	Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
>> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped British accent
>> emanating from it.
>> 	"I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
>> 	The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  His blood ran
>> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his seat, eyes riveted
>> to the machine.
>> 	"Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
>> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick up the phone.
>> This is most urgent."
>> 	Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
>> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
>> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled Christian.  Now it
>> was
>> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be foolish.  He
>> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to sound calm and
>> collected.
>> 	"Hello," he croaked.
>> 	"Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
>> genuinely relieved.
>> 	"Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
>> 	"Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old friend."  The
>> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not having heard
>> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
>> 	"We are not friends," Christian countered.
>> 	"So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
>> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold a grudge."
>> 	"You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
>> 	"Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds after all.  So,
>> let me get to the purpose of my call."
>> 	Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had never cared
>> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be far preferable
>> to
>> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
>> 	"One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
>> 	"I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that was just over a
>> whisper.
>> 	"I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done being coy.
>> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
>> 	"I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
>> 	"You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as though exercising
>> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the fraternity.
>> No
>> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
>> 	"I was told I could--"
>> 	"You were told you could what," the man interrupted, dropping all
>> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave and pretend
>> your
>> allegiance never existed?"
>> 	Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
>> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son,
>> Aaron,
>> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, was a newborn
>> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the photo, he had
>> felt
>> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that his past would
>> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his stomach, he
>> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed he could just
>> get away?
>> 	"One of the brothers and his wife have met with an untimely death,"
>> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been left behind
>> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and decided your
>> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the young man."
>> 	"I beg your pardon?"
>> 	"A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The voice was slow
>> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
>> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
>> 	Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
>> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more despicable.
>> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not want to begin to
>> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless boy was, well,
>> random!
>> 	"What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
>> 	Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
>> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to in more than
>> eighteen years?"
>> 	After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem with that?"
>> 	"Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
>> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think you're crazy to
>> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name from a hat or
>> something?"
>> 	"I do not pretend to understand the Council's decisions.  You have
>> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a tone that was
>> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier
>> brothers
>> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
>> 	"I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
>> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being coerced into
>> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
>> 	"Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You are right to
>> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  The boy will
>> be
>> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall term.  This
>> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
>> 	"And if I refuse?"
>> 	"Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
>> touch."
>> 	The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into its cradle and
>> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions colliding in
>> his
>> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a shock.  The nature
>> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
>> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed obsessed with
>> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He suddenly wondered how
>> long they had been monitoring his family.
>>
>> ***
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.jevnikar%40utoronto.ca
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 16:42:08 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:42:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfBdUO6nM7npuXv8XWgnCzWVLD4WvY=TKKz0Wm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100825020005.23082.42107@web1>
	<AANLkTikfBdUO6nM7npuXv8XWgnCzWVLD4WvY=TKKz0Wm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin96aoYuAZMQYnfodTFmbVSkYVrt9whEu-zkeWf@mail.gmail.com>

I think the scale should be based on the blind person's response to
the offered aid. For example, someone might offer "Are you going up?"
in an elevator, and the blind person would possibly be a-ok with that
(I know I would) and respond something like "Yes, the second floor.
Could you hit the button, please?" However, unwanted aid may include
grabbing without asking, calling instructions as the blind person
passes, and assuming the blind person is incapable of going where they
want to go.

I have nerve pain, so the "no touch" is especially important. Every
touch they make to my body shoots pain down my arm/leg/back/etc.
People just don't seem to get this. I tell them "Please don't touch
me. I have nerve pain, and your touch hurts me." and they get offended
like it's rude to not want to be touched. Many, after being told not
to touch, will walk away, whether I actuallyl needed assistance or
not, as if they don't know how to help if they can't hold my arm. Many
more are shocked that I can follow their lead without holding their
arm or being held by the arm, and praise me for doing "such a good job
of following me."

I have had peole, as I pass, call out instructions without asking,
without even saying Hello. One man made me break out into full
laughs....I was walking down the sidewalk, and he said "Ok, doing
good...there's a crack a foot ahead...you are over it...now there's a
branch in front of you about two feet to the right...good! And a curb
down...(as I was going down on the curb) All right, you got it! Watch
out for cars now...you're good to cross the parking lot now. Keep
going straight now...turn left here...(and so on and so on until I was
outside of earshot). I kept saying "Thank you, but I have it." and "I
see it with my cane" and all sorts of re-assuring remarks. I just
wonder how he thought I got in the middle of a shopping center as big
as Cameron Village and how I was going to get out of it or
whatever...did he think once I was out of his earshot, there'd be
another magically appearing weirdo to call directions as I passed him?
It freaked me out, but it also cracked me up how stupid it was.

A survey of both blind and sighted people would be a good idea, I
think. Ask questions like "Did you feel uncomfortable?" to the blind
person and "Do you think the blind person was uncomfortable?" to the
sighted person. Other questions might include "Were you touched
without permission?" (blind person) / "Did you touch the blind person
without permission?" (sighted....you'd be surprised, I think, how many
people don't realize they are doing anything wrong.

My two cents,
Jewel

On 8/24/10, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, Arielle,
>   Very interesting study! I like Cindy's ideas-- The number of times a
> blind person is physically touched and the number of times the helper
> insists on offering assistance even after the blind person has said
> "no" are both good ways to quantify excessive helpfulness. As the
> subjective perception of over-helpfulness can vary widely from person
> to person, it may be a bit more difficult to make generalizations
> based on what the blind person in this study (which I suppose might be
> you) feels, but a discomfort scale is definitely worth including.
> Also, it may be a good idea to record the interaction and have another
> blind person rate his level of discomfort if he were in the same
> situation so that you can establish some sort of interrater
> reliability, although I realize that this may not be very feasible.
> Overall, I think your hypotheses make a lot of sense and that you are
> likely to get very interesting results. Good luck and keep me posted
> about how it goes!
>    Katie
>
>
> On 8/24/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> I'd still take points away for "offering an elbow." I've seen sighted
>> people walk up to me, stand near me, and do this funny little chicken
>> wing thing as they way "want and elbow?" or "want help?" It's a bit
>> ridiculous. I'd much rather they start by asking me if want my help,
>> hear my answer, and leave me alone if I don't want help or ask me how I
>> want them to help me if I do.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
>> Original message:
>>> I think Cindy's ideas are very good. Maybe you could have a point-system
>>> to
>>> incorporate how many times a blind  person is touched, the discomfort
>>> scale
>>> number of the blind person, the number of times the assistant would ask,
>>> Are
>>> you sure? (as Cindy suggested), perhaps take-away points if the assistant
>>> attempts to engage in "normal" conversation, offers his/her elbow (the
>>> proper sighted-guide method), etc.
>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I think some good ways to quantify over helpfulness would be to count
>>>> how many times the blind person is physically touched. Also, the
>>>> number of times the sighted person offering help asks something along
>>>> the lines of, "are you sure?" or repeats their request to help after
>>>> the blind person has clearly said no.
>>
>>>> Also, i think that Joe brought up a good point. Over helpfulness is a
>>>> product of the helper's offers and the feelings of the one being
>>>> helped, so maybe a discomfort scale, or something of the sort, could
>>>> be given to the blind person after the incident. Sorry, i'm not really
>>>> familiar with any specific ones, but i'm sure they're out there. I
>>>> think this would be good, because some blind people honestly aren't
>>>> bothered by many offers to help whereas some become frustrated. There
>>>> could be a problem if the same blind person is used in simulation,
>>>> because after a while, they may be not as frustrated, because it is
>>>> just a study, or more frustrated because they have been put through
>>>> the simulation multiple times.
>>
>>>> Cindy
>>
>>>> On 8/24/10, trising <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>     I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever
>>>>> they
>>>>> think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and
>>>>> actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses
>>>>> are
>>>>> near so you can actually make your own choices. Others
>>>>> might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our
>>>>> brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions
>>>>> what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a
>>>> friend
>>>>> or family member what I want as if I am not there, I
>>>>> answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants
>>>>> a
>>>>> large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon
>>>>> as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it
>>>>> sounds
>>>>> silly.
>>>>>     At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the
>>>> street
>>>>> in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man
>>>>> who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over.
>>>> My
>>>>> husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We
>>>>> finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting
>>>>> to
>>>>> him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going
>>>>> to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
>>>>>     Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that
>>>>> is
>>>>> between several feet, to several store lengths away. We
>>>>> either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them
>>>>> to
>>>>> stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the
>>>>> obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact
>>>>> an
>>>>> obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an
>>>>> obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt
>>>>> without finding it.
>>>>> Terri Wilcox
>>
>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> nabs-l:
>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> --
>>> Kathryn CARROLL
>>> BlueLaw International LLP
>>> 703-647-7508
>>> Cell: 631-521-3018
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Wed Aug 25 19:17:56 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:17:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
Message-ID: <20100825191756.27553.9543@web3>

I find that sighted people get offended no matter if I or someone else 
has nerve pain or not. I think what's happened is that, by saying no, 
we've interrupted their ability to be helpful or show they care. In 
other words, we've (in their mind) disconfirmed their helpful nature 
and compromised their identity as helpful upstanding citizens. The 
problem is that they've based that sense of self concept on something 
that has more to do with them and nothing to do with us although we are 
the targets of their helpfulness. In a real world situation, there may 
not be much that can be done about this except to acknowledge that the 
person is trying to be helpful and firmly telling them that you're not 
interested if a polite no thanks doesn't help. Alternatively, you could 
find some way they could be helpful. For example, someone might ask me 
if I want help crossing the street, and I'll (if I feel like it) offer 
them the ability to serve as conversational companion or something 
similar as we walk in the same direction. That way, we all more or less 
get what we want. But again, that's not always realistic, either. 
Sometimes, we just have to shrug when sighted folks get offended and 
not be afraid of their hurt feelings.

The most effective way I've learned to help sighted people understand 
how obnoxious they can be is to turn it back around on them. I do this 
in blindness seminars where I ask for volunteers to serve as helpers. 
They then target a friend in the class and act exactly as sighted 
people tend to act toward us. By the end of the activity, both helpers 
and helpees (as well as observers) get the point quite well. My 
seminars also include some activities and iscussion about blindness to 
help them understand that blind people are very similar to the sighted; 
this activity is one step in that process.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> I think the scale should be based on the blind person's response to
> the offered aid. For example, someone might offer "Are you going up?"
> in an elevator, and the blind person would possibly be a-ok with that
> (I know I would) and respond something like "Yes, the second floor.
> Could you hit the button, please?" However, unwanted aid may include
> grabbing without asking, calling instructions as the blind person
> passes, and assuming the blind person is incapable of going where they
> want to go.

> I have nerve pain, so the "no touch" is especially important. Every
> touch they make to my body shoots pain down my arm/leg/back/etc.
> People just don't seem to get this. I tell them "Please don't touch
> me. I have nerve pain, and your touch hurts me." and they get offended
> like it's rude to not want to be touched. Many, after being told not
> to touch, will walk away, whether I actuallyl needed assistance or
> not, as if they don't know how to help if they can't hold my arm. Many
> more are shocked that I can follow their lead without holding their
> arm or being held by the arm, and praise me for doing "such a good job
> of following me."

> I have had peole, as I pass, call out instructions without asking,
> without even saying Hello. One man made me break out into full
> laughs....I was walking down the sidewalk, and he said "Ok, doing
> good...there's a crack a foot ahead...you are over it...now there's a
> branch in front of you about two feet to the right...good! And a curb
> down...(as I was going down on the curb) All right, you got it! Watch
> out for cars now...you're good to cross the parking lot now. Keep
> going straight now...turn left here...(and so on and so on until I was
> outside of earshot). I kept saying "Thank you, but I have it." and "I
> see it with my cane" and all sorts of re-assuring remarks. I just
> wonder how he thought I got in the middle of a shopping center as big
> as Cameron Village and how I was going to get out of it or
> whatever...did he think once I was out of his earshot, there'd be
> another magically appearing weirdo to call directions as I passed him?
> It freaked me out, but it also cracked me up how stupid it was.

> A survey of both blind and sighted people would be a good idea, I
> think. Ask questions like "Did you feel uncomfortable?" to the blind
> person and "Do you think the blind person was uncomfortable?" to the
> sighted person. Other questions might include "Were you touched
> without permission?" (blind person) / "Did you touch the blind person
> without permission?" (sighted....you'd be surprised, I think, how many
> people don't realize they are doing anything wrong.

> My two cents,
> Jewel

> On 8/24/10, Katie Wang <bunnykatie6 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi, Arielle,
>>   Very interesting study! I like Cindy's ideas-- The number of times a
>> blind person is physically touched and the number of times the helper
>> insists on offering assistance even after the blind person has said
>> "no" are both good ways to quantify excessive helpfulness. As the
>> subjective perception of over-helpfulness can vary widely from person
>> to person, it may be a bit more difficult to make generalizations
>> based on what the blind person in this study (which I suppose might be
>> you) feels, but a discomfort scale is definitely worth including.
>> Also, it may be a good idea to record the interaction and have another
>> blind person rate his level of discomfort if he were in the same
>> situation so that you can establish some sort of interrater
>> reliability, although I realize that this may not be very feasible.
>> Overall, I think your hypotheses make a lot of sense and that you are
>> likely to get very interesting results. Good luck and keep me posted
>> about how it goes!
>>    Katie


>> On 8/24/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> I'd still take points away for "offering an elbow." I've seen sighted
>>> people walk up to me, stand near me, and do this funny little chicken
>>> wing thing as they way "want and elbow?" or "want help?" It's a bit
>>> ridiculous. I'd much rather they start by asking me if want my help,
>>> hear my answer, and leave me alone if I don't want help or ask me how I
>>> want them to help me if I do.

>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi


>>> Original message:
>>>> I think Cindy's ideas are very good. Maybe you could have a point-system
>>>> to
>>>> incorporate how many times a blind  person is touched, the discomfort
>>>> scale
>>>> number of the blind person, the number of times the assistant would ask,
>>>> Are
>>>> you sure? (as Cindy suggested), perhaps take-away points if the assistant
>>>> attempts to engage in "normal" conversation, offers his/her elbow (the
>>>> proper sighted-guide method), etc.

>>>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>> I think some good ways to quantify over helpfulness would be to count
>>>>> how many times the blind person is physically touched. Also, the
>>>>> number of times the sighted person offering help asks something along
>>>>> the lines of, "are you sure?" or repeats their request to help after
>>>>> the blind person has clearly said no.

>>>>> Also, i think that Joe brought up a good point. Over helpfulness is a
>>>>> product of the helper's offers and the feelings of the one being
>>>>> helped, so maybe a discomfort scale, or something of the sort, could
>>>>> be given to the blind person after the incident. Sorry, i'm not really
>>>>> familiar with any specific ones, but i'm sure they're out there. I
>>>>> think this would be good, because some blind people honestly aren't
>>>>> bothered by many offers to help whereas some become frustrated. There
>>>>> could be a problem if the same blind person is used in simulation,
>>>>> because after a while, they may be not as frustrated, because it is
>>>>> just a study, or more frustrated because they have been put through
>>>>> the simulation multiple times.

>>>>> Cindy

>>>>> On 8/24/10, trising <trising at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>     I think overly helpful people grab you and pull you to wherever
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> think you want to go. It is hard to get them to stop and
>>>>>> actually listen to your question about what restaurants or businesses
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> near so you can actually make your own choices. Others
>>>>>> might shout at us or talk to us very slowly, as if the synapses in our
>>>>>> brains must take a while to fire. Others ask our companions
>>>>>> what we want for lunch or give them our change. When a person asks a
>>>>> friend
>>>>>> or family member what I want as if I am not there, I
>>>>>> answer as if I am not there either by saying something like, "She wants
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> large Coke without ice and some fish and chips." As soon
>>>>>> as they talk to me, I stop talking as if I am not there because it
>>>>>> sounds
>>>>>> silly.
>>>>>>     At another time my husband and I were casually walking down the
>>>>> street
>>>>>> in the local town where we live. We became aware of a man
>>>>>> who was positively shrieking, "You missed the bus stop," over and over.
>>>>> My
>>>>>> husband and I are both totally blind from birth. We
>>>>>> finally realized he must be talking to us because no one was reacting
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> him, and he was not letting up. I said, "We are not going
>>>>>> to the bus stop," and the man immediately stopped yelling.
>>>>>>     Many times we have had people yelling at us about an obstacle that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> between several feet, to several store lengths away. We
>>>>>> either say Thanks, or say, "I will find it with My cane," to get them
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> stop yelling. Then, I keep walking until I find the
>>>>>> obstacle. I have found it makes people nervous when our canes contact
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> obstacle. However, it is a lot easier to get around an
>>>>>> obstacle that my cane has already found than one I am trying to skirt
>>>>>> without finding it.
>>>>>> Terri Wilcox


>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> nabs-l:

>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com


>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kc2992a%40student.american.edu




>>>> --
>>>> Kathryn CARROLL
>>>> BlueLaw International LLP
>>>> 703-647-7508
>>>> Cell: 631-521-3018
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

>>> _______________________________________________
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>> _______________________________________________
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> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com

> _______________________________________________
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From trising at sbcglobal.net  Wed Aug 25 22:24:17 2010
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:24:17 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus><20100824111724.5220nxdmkg8ck8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<AANLkTiniFYMJRypWgU6ZET4A0me1duJBCxwzUBpi+4H9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8DE6D31D2B7F43B5A21105C1CEB20284@user6389c7a3c9>

I know! I love to read, and this sounds really great!
Terri Wilcox


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 22:40:42 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:40:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiniFYMJRypWgU6ZET4A0me1duJBCxwzUBpi+4H9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus><20100824111724.5220nxdmkg8ck8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca>
	<AANLkTiniFYMJRypWgU6ZET4A0me1duJBCxwzUBpi+4H9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <424A5C55F30D44EBA4B4730E202BE516@Rufus>

Dear Kirt and all,

Thank you for your vote of confidence.  I'm truly on the fence as to whether
the guy will wind up losing his sight.  I've decided to write two
alternatives and see which one develops better.  Now, thanks to your guys'
encouragement , I am motivated to finish the book.  I only hope the rest of
the story lives up to the expectations set by the excerpt.  If there are
other writers on the list, I'd encourage you to join the Stylist mailing
list.  The traffic is moderate, and the discussions have gotten
substantially more helpful for up and coming writers.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:15 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character

Joe,
  This book sounds awesome.  Really awesome.  The whole blind thing
aside, I think it's right up my alley.  And that brings me to an
important point.  Heaven knows we need positive portrayals of blind
people in literature.  But, and I'm not saying don't do it, were I in
your place I probably wouldn't.  I know it's good to "write what you
know", but, because you know so much firsthand about blindness, and if
I'm understanding you right that's not even supposed to be close to
the main plot of the novel, I think you may run the risk of amplifying
that secondary subplot, even subconsciously.  I know I would.  Just a
thought.
  Looking forward to reading more of this,
Kirt
P.s.  If and when this gets published, I'm so totally buying it.

On 8/24/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca 
<sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> This is really exciting. I can't wait to read it.
>
> I couldn't agree with you more on your feelings of portrayals of blind
> characters in books and movies. My added frustration is that any
> competent blind characters are those who have lost vision later in
> life. Could someone please write a book about someone blind from birth
> who's also competent? I'd like a fully relateable character.
> Just my thoughts.
> Sarah
>
>
> Quoting Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com>:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've 
decided to
>> quit
>> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering 
in my head for
>> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can 
tell you that it
>> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that 
fight for more
>> than
>> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think 
Stephen King
>> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>>
>> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to 
blind characters
>> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been 
disappointed.  They're
>> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
>> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can
>> either
>> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was 
not part of my
>> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the 
easy fallback of
>> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very 
good means of
>> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family 
bought a copy of
>> my
>> ramblings, right?
>>
>> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind 
character should
>> be
>> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this
>> person
>> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able 
to come out
>> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to 
experience
>> the
>> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in 
itself rule
>> out
>> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of 
emphasizing
>> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking 
for a balanced
>> prospective between educating in a positive light and 
realistic reactions
>> in
>> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, 
something to
>> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and 
continues to
>> be
>> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
>> stereotypes according to how people interpret the 
character's actions, I'd
>> like to know this as well.
>>
>> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it 
anywhere, but by
>> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your 
participation in
>> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously
>> shared
>> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so 
please feel free
>> to
>> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my 
original question so
>> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews 
off my back.
>> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> ***
>>
>> 	Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
>> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter
>> would
>> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his
>> e-mail
>> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
>> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
>> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing 
news of the kind
>> Christian and his family could do without.
>> 	They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never 
guessed the
>> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been
>> right
>> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would 
come as a total
>> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the 
inevitable
>> encounter.
>> 	On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in 
the first
>> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as 
so many of them
>> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen 
his family out
>> the
>> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising
>> plot.
>> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to 
his writing
>> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high 
school kids
>> who
>> would have already forgotten what they learned.
>> 	Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
>> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In 
his feverish
>> state
>> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in 
progress.  The
>> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a 
voice Christian
>> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
>> 	"Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
>> 	Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
>> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped 
British accent
>> emanating from it.
>> 	"I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
>> 	The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  
His blood ran
>> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his 
seat, eyes riveted
>> to the machine.
>> 	"Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
>> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick 
up the phone.
>> This is most urgent."
>> 	Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
>> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
>> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled 
Christian.  Now it
>> was
>> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be 
foolish.  He
>> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to 
sound calm and
>> collected.
>> 	"Hello," he croaked.
>> 	"Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
>> genuinely relieved.
>> 	"Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
>> 	"Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old 
friend."  The
>> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not 
having heard
>> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
>> 	"We are not friends," Christian countered.
>> 	"So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
>> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold 
a grudge."
>> 	"You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
>> 	"Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds 
after all.  So,
>> let me get to the purpose of my call."
>> 	Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had 
never cared
>> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be 
far preferable
>> to
>> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
>> 	"One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
>> 	"I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that 
was just over a
>> whisper.
>> 	"I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done 
being coy.
>> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
>> 	"I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
>> 	"You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as 
though exercising
>> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the 
fraternity.
>> No
>> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
>> 	"I was told I could--"
>> 	"You were told you could what," the man interrupted, 
dropping all
>> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave 
and pretend
>> your
>> allegiance never existed?"
>> 	Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
>> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son,
>> Aaron,
>> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, 
was a newborn
>> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the 
photo, he had
>> felt
>> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that 
his past would
>> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his 
stomach, he
>> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed 
he could just
>> get away?
>> 	"One of the brothers and his wife have met with an 
untimely death,"
>> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been 
left behind
>> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and 
decided your
>> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the 
young man."
>> 	"I beg your pardon?"
>> 	"A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The 
voice was slow
>> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
>> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
>> 	Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
>> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more 
despicable.
>> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not 
want to begin to
>> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless 
boy was, well,
>> random!
>> 	"What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
>> 	Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
>> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to 
in more than
>> eighteen years?"
>> 	After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem 
with that?"
>> 	"Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
>> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think 
you're crazy to
>> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name 
from a hat or
>> something?"
>> 	"I do not pretend to understand the Council's 
decisions.  You have
>> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a 
tone that was
>> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier
>> brothers
>> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
>> 	"I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
>> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being 
coerced into
>> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
>> 	"Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You 
are right to
>> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  
The boy will
>> be
>> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall 
term.  This
>> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
>> 	"And if I refuse?"
>> 	"Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
>> touch."
>> 	The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into 
its cradle and
>> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions 
colliding in
>> his
>> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a 
shock.  The nature
>> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
>> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed 
obsessed with
>> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He 
suddenly wondered how
>> long they had been monitoring his family.
>>
>> ***
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.je
vnikar%40utoronto.ca
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Thu Aug 26 00:16:56 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:16:56 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character
In-Reply-To: <424A5C55F30D44EBA4B4730E202BE516@Rufus>
References: <DAC2F0BBDF424C34842F6B7ADFB5F8CD@Rufus><20100824111724.5220nxdmkg8ck8oo@webmail.utoronto.ca><AANLkTiniFYMJRypWgU6ZET4A0me1duJBCxwzUBpi+4H9@mail.gmail.com>
	<424A5C55F30D44EBA4B4730E202BE516@Rufus>
Message-ID: <03329767830F43E8A03FA9BF1C4AD909@windows4c0ed96>

Hi Jo, Do you have a   link we might   use to join the list?

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Joe Orozco
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:41 PM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character

Dear Kirt and all,

Thank you for your vote of confidence.  I'm truly on the fence as to whether
the guy will wind up losing his sight.  I've decided to write two
alternatives and see which one develops better.  Now, thanks to your guys'
encouragement , I am motivated to finish the book.  I only hope the rest of
the story lives up to the expectations set by the excerpt.  If there are
other writers on the list, I'd encourage you to join the Stylist mailing
list.  The traffic is moderate, and the discussions have gotten
substantially more helpful for up and coming writers.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 10:15 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] To Be, or Not to Be, A Blind Character

Joe,
  This book sounds awesome.  Really awesome.  The whole blind thing
aside, I think it's right up my alley.  And that brings me to an
important point.  Heaven knows we need positive portrayals of blind
people in literature.  But, and I'm not saying don't do it, were I in
your place I probably wouldn't.  I know it's good to "write what you
know", but, because you know so much firsthand about blindness, and if
I'm understanding you right that's not even supposed to be close to
the main plot of the novel, I think you may run the risk of amplifying
that secondary subplot, even subconsciously.  I know I would.  Just a
thought.
  Looking forward to reading more of this,
Kirt
P.s.  If and when this gets published, I'm so totally buying it.

On 8/24/10, sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca 
<sarah.jevnikar at utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> This is really exciting. I can't wait to read it.
>
> I couldn't agree with you more on your feelings of portrayals of blind
> characters in books and movies. My added frustration is that any
> competent blind characters are those who have lost vision later in
> life. Could someone please write a book about someone blind from birth
> who's also competent? I'd like a fully relateable character.
> Just my thoughts.
> Sarah
>
>
> Quoting Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com>:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> It's no mystery I thoroughly enjoy writing.  This year I've 
decided to
>> quit
>> fiddling around and finish that novel that's been festering 
in my head for
>> several years.  Without divulging too many details, I can 
tell you that it
>> will most likely be a piece about two street gangs that 
fight for more
>> than
>> just respect in a classic war between good and evil.  Think 
Stephen King
>> meets S.E. Hinton in a more aggressive version of The Outsiders...
>>
>> Now, here's my question:  What has been your response to 
blind characters
>> portrayed in books and movies?  I have mostly been 
disappointed.  They're
>> either too Super Hero or too wimpy.  I've progressed far enough in my
>> writing to come to the pivotal point where one of my protagonists can
>> either
>> go blind or not.  Actually, featuring a blind character was 
not part of my
>> original thought process.  I did not want to fit into the 
easy fallback of
>> the blind writing about the blind, but it would be a very 
good means of
>> educating the public, assuming anyone outside my family 
bought a copy of
>> my
>> ramblings, right?
>>
>> I'm curious to hear your thoughts.  If you think a blind 
character should
>> be
>> featured, what would you want him or her to portray?  Mind you, this
>> person
>> would have just lost their sight, so they would not be able 
to come out
>> swinging as a hyper independent role model.  They'll need to 
experience
>> the
>> typical stages of acceptance, a daunting process that may in 
itself rule
>> out
>> a blind person in my plot, but it would be a good means of 
emphasizing
>> Braille and other forms of essential training.  I'm looking 
for a balanced
>> prospective between educating in a positive light and 
realistic reactions
>> in
>> someone who lost their vision from one moment to the next, 
something to
>> which I cannot relate since my own vision loss has been and 
continues to
>> be
>> very slow.  If you think blind characters run the risk of reaffirming
>> stereotypes according to how people interpret the 
character's actions, I'd
>> like to know this as well.
>>
>> Naturally I have no idea if my little book will make it 
anywhere, but by
>> golly it's going to be finished, and in exchange for your 
participation in
>> the brainstorming phase, I will offer you a teaser which I previously
>> shared
>> with the writer's list.  It is very much a raw draft, so 
please feel free
>> to
>> tear it up so long as the main discussion is about my 
original question so
>> that the discussion stays on topic and I keep David Andrews 
off my back.
>> (grin)  Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> ***
>>
>> 	Christian Slater knew they would come calling one day.  He just
>> wasn't sure how they would make contact.  Perhaps a mysterious letter
>> would
>> one day appear in their mailbox.  Maybe one morning he would open his
>> e-mail
>> inbox to discover a message from an obscure sender, but given their
>> obsession with secrecy, it was more likely that someone from the old
>> fraternity would simply appear at the front door bearing 
news of the kind
>> Christian and his family could do without.
>> 	They chose the telephone.  Christian would have never 
guessed the
>> fraternity would gamble with an unsecure line, but he had always been
>> right
>> to assume that when they did reconnect with him, it would 
come as a total
>> surprise no matter how much he thought he'd prepared for the 
inevitable
>> encounter.
>> 	On the morning the call came, he was deeply immersed in 
the first
>> chapter of his latest novel.  The idea had come to him, as 
so many of them
>> often did, without forethought, and by the time he'd seen 
his family out
>> the
>> door, the kernel of an idea had grown into the makings of a promising
>> plot.
>> With school out, he had the rest of the summer to devote to 
his writing
>> without the burden of teaching the craft to a bunch of high 
school kids
>> who
>> would have already forgotten what they learned.
>> 	Christian snapped a glance at the caller ID, saw that it was a
>> restricted number and dismissed it as a telemarketer.  In 
his feverish
>> state
>> of mind he only wanted to be left alone with his story in 
progress.  The
>> call went to the machine, and after the obligatory beep, a 
voice Christian
>> hadn't heard in years came from the speaker.
>> 	"Mr. Slater, this is Don speaking.
>> 	Christian froze, fingers hovering over the laptop keyboard, eyes
>> slowly moving back to the answering machine and the clipped 
British accent
>> emanating from it.
>> 	"I trust you are well," the cultured voice said.
>> 	The energy left Christian in a stomach-turning lurch.  
His blood ran
>> cold when doubt turned to certainty.  He slumped in his 
seat, eyes riveted
>> to the machine.
>> 	"Mr. Slater, it is important that we speak at your earliest
>> opportunity," the man said.  "If you are there, please pick 
up the phone.
>> This is most urgent."
>> 	Christian pondered it for a moment.  He could ignore the call,
>> pretend he was not home.  Then a memory of the man's ice blue glare
>> surfaced.  That penetrating stare had always troubled 
Christian.  Now it
>> was
>> almost as though the man were in the room, daring him to be 
foolish.  He
>> slowly reached out for the receiver, willing his voice to 
sound calm and
>> collected.
>> 	"Hello," he croaked.
>> 	"Ah, good.  You are home after all," the caller said, sounding
>> genuinely relieved.
>> 	"Wha, what do you want?" Christian stammered.
>> 	"Come now, Mr. Slater that is no way to greet an old 
friend."  The
>> man's voice appeared to be amiable.  Christian, despite not 
having heard
>> this man's voice in nearly twenty years, knew this was only a facade.
>> 	"We are not friends," Christian countered.
>> 	"So you are still a bit sore about that old business," the man
>> mused.  "I dare say it has been far too long for you to hold 
a grudge."
>> 	"You're unbelievable," Christian hissed.
>> 	"Alas, it would appear time may not heel all wounds 
after all.  So,
>> let me get to the purpose of my call."
>> 	Christian's hand tightened around the receiver.  He had 
never cared
>> for the man's false joviality, but he was sure it would be 
far preferable
>> to
>> the blow that was no doubt coming.  "Please do," Christian said.
>> 	"One of your brothers has met with an unfortunate...accident."
>> 	"I have no brothers," Christian said in a voice that 
was just over a
>> whisper.
>> 	"I'm sorry," the man replied.  "I thought we were done 
being coy.
>> Of course I was referring to the brotherhood in the fraternity."
>> 	"I left the fraternity," Christian muttered.
>> 	"You never left the fraternity," the man sighed as 
though exercising
>> immense patience with a stubborn child.  "You never left the 
fraternity.
>> No
>> one ever leaves the fraternity, Mr. Slater."
>> 	"I was told I could--"
>> 	"You were told you could what," the man interrupted, 
dropping all
>> pretense of pleasantries. "You thought you could just leave 
and pretend
>> your
>> allegiance never existed?"
>> 	Christian's eyes strayed to the family photo hanging over the
>> fireplace in his study.  In the picture his then three-year-old son,
>> Aaron,
>> stood blithely between his parents.  Their daughter, Trish, 
was a newborn
>> cradled in the arms of a smiling Carolyn.  Posing for the 
photo, he had
>> felt
>> that his life had truly taken a turn for the better, that 
his past would
>> fade into distant memory.  Now, despite the fear raking his 
stomach, he
>> almost grinned at his own stupidity.  Had he truly believed 
he could just
>> get away?
>> 	"One of the brothers and his wife have met with an 
untimely death,"
>> the caller went on.  "They had a son, Theodore, who has been 
left behind
>> with no suitable guardians.  The High Council has met and 
decided your
>> family would be best suited to take responsibility for the 
young man."
>> 	"I beg your pardon?"
>> 	"A family has died.  Their son needs a home."  The 
voice was slow
>> and irritatingly precise, exhibiting all the patience of a teacher
>> explaining to his dimwitted student the basic principles of gravity.
>> 	Christian was torn.  On the one hand he could not have felt more
>> relieved.  He had been certain the request would be far more 
despicable.
>> Exactly what he thought they might ask of him he did not 
want to begin to
>> imagine, but on the other hand, this business of a homeless 
boy was, well,
>> random!
>> 	"What part of it is confusing, Mr. Slater?"
>> 	Christian sat forward.  "You want me to just take in a boy I've
>> never met?  From a group of people I haven't even spoken to 
in more than
>> eighteen years?"
>> 	After a pause, the man asked, "Do you foresee a problem 
with that?"
>> 	"Do I foresee a problem with that?"  Christian was appalled.
>> "You're damn right I foresee a problem with that.  I think 
you're crazy to
>> just call me up this way.  What, did you just draw my name 
from a hat or
>> something?"
>> 	"I do not pretend to understand the Council's 
decisions.  You have
>> an obligation to the fraternity," the man explained in a 
tone that was
>> almost brittle with disdain.  "Your respite is over.  Far worthier
>> brothers
>> would be all too glad to assume this responsibility."
>> 	"I'm sorry for the boy's loss," Christian hissed.  "But you just
>> can't call me and expect me to be overjoyed when I'm being 
coerced into
>> taking in a child from a family I never even met."
>> 	"Coercion," the man pondered, savoring the word.  "You 
are right to
>> assume that you do not really have a choice in the matter.  
The boy will
>> be
>> coming to your home in two months, just in time for the fall 
term.  This
>> should give you ample time to prepare for his arrival."
>> 	"And if I refuse?"
>> 	"Mr. Slater," the man chuckled.  "Don't be silly.  I'll be in
>> touch."
>> 	The line went dead.  Christian dropped the phone into 
its cradle and
>> then just sat staring at it.  There were too many questions 
colliding in
>> his
>> head, too many competing thoughts.  The call had been a 
shock.  The nature
>> of the call had been just plain strange, and...  With dawning horror,
>> Christian looked around the room.  The fraternity was indeed 
obsessed with
>> secrecy.  It would never take unnecessary risks.  He 
suddenly wondered how
>> long they had been monitoring his family.
>>
>> ***
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up 
their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sarah.je
vnikar%40utoronto.ca
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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et



From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 02:03:46 2010
From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:03:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.17.1282755603.20349.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.17.1282755603.20349.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <002201cb44c2$ebf7f070$c3e7d150$@com>

There is absolutely no way that blind people will be driving cars on
America's roadways within 10 years, or 20 for that matter. I highly doubt
whether it will even be technically feasible in 10 years, but am absolutely
certain that such a system will not have gained the requisite widespread
public acceptance within that time frame.

Having a generation of literate blind children would open more employment
opportunities than a car operable by the blind. So will the slow, but
persistent, shifting of public attitudes relative to the capacities of blind
people. The idea that the existence of a car drivable by blind people will
all of a sudden create employment opportunities is, in my opinion,
misguided. I also don't by the idea that seeing a blind person operating a
vehicle will shift public attitudes significantly. I think people will be
impressed as hell by the technology, but am not convinced that they will
view blind people as any more capable.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to hop in a car and go where I want
to go when I want to go there, but there are a number of ways the resources
being poured into this project could be better spent. They have been
outlined here before, so I won't go into that here. I surely understand that
there will be advancements in technology made, which will benefit the
sighted and the blind alike, because of the ambitious undertaking of such a
project. The work that is being done is impressive, interesting and
innovative. It just seems to me that, given the fact that we are working
with limited resources, we could focus them elsewhere with more immediate
effect.

Sean



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 05:35:30 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:35:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
In-Reply-To: <002201cb44c2$ebf7f070$c3e7d150$@com>
References: <mailman.17.1282755603.20349.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<002201cb44c2$ebf7f070$c3e7d150$@com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimD8G1rv2cQXMBp2k3JaxJHN3rcnja656d8DfA2@mail.gmail.com>

On the subject of transportation and the alternatives to the dreaded
buses and such...why haven't they developed something much simpler,
like a motorized scooter that has a system for feedback that a cane
provides...I imagine it is difficult to use a cane from a motorized
scooter or wheelchair...what are the alternatives? I know about the K
Sonar...but they say that it is not a replacement but should be used
*with* the white cane...what else is avaialble? Why not create
something like what they are working on for the blind driver challenge
for wheelchairs that points out obstacles and indicates how to avoid
stuff like that? What do you guys think of this? Motorized wheelchairs
and scooters go much slower than cars, and have far fewer dangers
since they are on sidewalks where there aren't high-speeding vehicles
to watch out for...but I think it'd be a great tool. Or what about
those things that people stand on that are motorized, like
min-scooters...you know, like some mall cops use? I forgot what they
are called...anyone remember? We could maybe figure out some way of
making those easier to use by the blind?

I know I for one would be grateful for an easier way to get around
than my own two feet...I have mobility and balance issues and
sometimes struggle a lot walking around town. I'd be soo grateful for
some way of navigating with a a small motorized mobility tool like a
scooter or that thing mall cops use. Ideas? Comments?

~Jewel

On 8/25/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
> There is absolutely no way that blind people will be driving cars on
> America's roadways within 10 years, or 20 for that matter. I highly doubt
> whether it will even be technically feasible in 10 years, but am absolutely
> certain that such a system will not have gained the requisite widespread
> public acceptance within that time frame.
>
> Having a generation of literate blind children would open more employment
> opportunities than a car operable by the blind. So will the slow, but
> persistent, shifting of public attitudes relative to the capacities of blind
> people. The idea that the existence of a car drivable by blind people will
> all of a sudden create employment opportunities is, in my opinion,
> misguided. I also don't by the idea that seeing a blind person operating a
> vehicle will shift public attitudes significantly. I think people will be
> impressed as hell by the technology, but am not convinced that they will
> view blind people as any more capable.
>
> I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to hop in a car and go where I want
> to go when I want to go there, but there are a number of ways the resources
> being poured into this project could be better spent. They have been
> outlined here before, so I won't go into that here. I surely understand that
> there will be advancements in technology made, which will benefit the
> sighted and the blind alike, because of the ambitious undertaking of such a
> project. The work that is being done is impressive, interesting and
> innovative. It just seems to me that, given the fact that we are working
> with limited resources, we could focus them elsewhere with more immediate
> effect.
>
> Sean
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Aug 26 05:39:25 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:39:25 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimD8G1rv2cQXMBp2k3JaxJHN3rcnja656d8DfA2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.17.1282755603.20349.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<002201cb44c2$ebf7f070$c3e7d150$@com>
	<AANLkTimD8G1rv2cQXMBp2k3JaxJHN3rcnja656d8DfA2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5B250644-B725-482A-8424-0DA3FDF5D5DD@mac.com>

Yes.
That would be interesting to look at, though I guess it may come out to be a side-product of the car challenge too?


Thanks.



Jorge Paez


---
President And CEO:
Paez Production Networks





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this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media.

On Aug 25, 2010, at 10:35 PM, Jewel S. wrote:

> On the subject of transportation and the alternatives to the dreaded
> buses and such...why haven't they developed something much simpler,
> like a motorized scooter that has a system for feedback that a cane
> provides...I imagine it is difficult to use a cane from a motorized
> scooter or wheelchair...what are the alternatives? I know about the K
> Sonar...but they say that it is not a replacement but should be used
> *with* the white cane...what else is avaialble? Why not create
> something like what they are working on for the blind driver challenge
> for wheelchairs that points out obstacles and indicates how to avoid
> stuff like that? What do you guys think of this? Motorized wheelchairs
> and scooters go much slower than cars, and have far fewer dangers
> since they are on sidewalks where there aren't high-speeding vehicles
> to watch out for...but I think it'd be a great tool. Or what about
> those things that people stand on that are motorized, like
> min-scooters...you know, like some mall cops use? I forgot what they
> are called...anyone remember? We could maybe figure out some way of
> making those easier to use by the blind?
> 
> I know I for one would be grateful for an easier way to get around
> than my own two feet...I have mobility and balance issues and
> sometimes struggle a lot walking around town. I'd be soo grateful for
> some way of navigating with a a small motorized mobility tool like a
> scooter or that thing mall cops use. Ideas? Comments?
> 
> ~Jewel
> 
> On 8/25/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> There is absolutely no way that blind people will be driving cars on
>> America's roadways within 10 years, or 20 for that matter. I highly doubt
>> whether it will even be technically feasible in 10 years, but am absolutely
>> certain that such a system will not have gained the requisite widespread
>> public acceptance within that time frame.
>> 
>> Having a generation of literate blind children would open more employment
>> opportunities than a car operable by the blind. So will the slow, but
>> persistent, shifting of public attitudes relative to the capacities of blind
>> people. The idea that the existence of a car drivable by blind people will
>> all of a sudden create employment opportunities is, in my opinion,
>> misguided. I also don't by the idea that seeing a blind person operating a
>> vehicle will shift public attitudes significantly. I think people will be
>> impressed as hell by the technology, but am not convinced that they will
>> view blind people as any more capable.
>> 
>> I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to hop in a car and go where I want
>> to go when I want to go there, but there are a number of ways the resources
>> being poured into this project could be better spent. They have been
>> outlined here before, so I won't go into that here. I surely understand that
>> there will be advancements in technology made, which will benefit the
>> sighted and the blind alike, because of the ambitious undertaking of such a
>> project. The work that is being done is impressive, interesting and
>> innovative. It just seems to me that, given the fact that we are working
>> with limited resources, we could focus them elsewhere with more immediate
>> effect.
>> 
>> Sean
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 26 08:32:39 2010
From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:32:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimD8G1rv2cQXMBp2k3JaxJHN3rcnja656d8DfA2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <646283.21736.qm@web53803.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Good idea Jewel. Realisticly would you suggest would much more likely to happen then cars that blind people can drive. What you are suggesting can actually be achieved I am sure of this. It would just require some thinking. Perhaps using the technology in current GPS devices to make what you are suggesting happen. But I think it can be done.
Anmol
I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
Hellen Keller


--- On Thu, 8/26/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 12:35 AM
> On the subject of transportation and
> the alternatives to the dreaded
> buses and such...why haven't they developed something much
> simpler,
> like a motorized scooter that has a system for feedback
> that a cane
> provides...I imagine it is difficult to use a cane from a
> motorized
> scooter or wheelchair...what are the alternatives? I know
> about the K
> Sonar...but they say that it is not a replacement but
> should be used
> *with* the white cane...what else is avaialble? Why not
> create
> something like what they are working on for the blind
> driver challenge
> for wheelchairs that points out obstacles and indicates how
> to avoid
> stuff like that? What do you guys think of this? Motorized
> wheelchairs
> and scooters go much slower than cars, and have far fewer
> dangers
> since they are on sidewalks where there aren't
> high-speeding vehicles
> to watch out for...but I think it'd be a great tool. Or
> what about
> those things that people stand on that are motorized, like
> min-scooters...you know, like some mall cops use? I forgot
> what they
> are called...anyone remember? We could maybe figure out
> some way of
> making those easier to use by the blind?
> 
> I know I for one would be grateful for an easier way to get
> around
> than my own two feet...I have mobility and balance issues
> and
> sometimes struggle a lot walking around town. I'd be soo
> grateful for
> some way of navigating with a a small motorized mobility
> tool like a
> scooter or that thing mall cops use. Ideas? Comments?
> 
> ~Jewel
> 
> On 8/25/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > There is absolutely no way that blind people will be
> driving cars on
> > America's roadways within 10 years, or 20 for that
> matter. I highly doubt
> > whether it will even be technically feasible in 10
> years, but am absolutely
> > certain that such a system will not have gained the
> requisite widespread
> > public acceptance within that time frame.
> >
> > Having a generation of literate blind children would
> open more employment
> > opportunities than a car operable by the blind. So
> will the slow, but
> > persistent, shifting of public attitudes relative to
> the capacities of blind
> > people. The idea that the existence of a car drivable
> by blind people will
> > all of a sudden create employment opportunities is, in
> my opinion,
> > misguided. I also don't by the idea that seeing a
> blind person operating a
> > vehicle will shift public attitudes significantly. I
> think people will be
> > impressed as hell by the technology, but am not
> convinced that they will
> > view blind people as any more capable.
> >
> > I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to hop in a
> car and go where I want
> > to go when I want to go there, but there are a number
> of ways the resources
> > being poured into this project could be better spent.
> They have been
> > outlined here before, so I won't go into that here. I
> surely understand that
> > there will be advancements in technology made, which
> will benefit the
> > sighted and the blind alike, because of the ambitious
> undertaking of such a
> > project. The work that is being done is impressive,
> interesting and
> > innovative. It just seems to me that, given the fact
> that we are working
> > with limited resources, we could focus them elsewhere
> with more immediate
> > effect.
> >
> > Sean
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for
> > nabs-l:
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 14:38:10 2010
From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:38:10 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Interactions....
Message-ID: <AANLkTiniWzTZ_jGcBUdMYq2QxV_6UQ_UTUWhP8DbxZGk@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Arielle, distinguishing the obnoxious from the helpful is something
I do on a daily basis, as I live in NYC and New Yorkers tend to be one
or the other, and rarely in the middle.

A simple statement that might help is that the obnoxious person
believes you need their help, and will directly or indirectly inform
you of this belief; as where the helpful person will offer when
appropriate.

Someone obnoxious will stand and expect me to sit when I enter a
subway car. Someone helpful will ask me if I would like a seat.

You mentioned having participants undergo blindness simulations, and
blindness simulations and then interaction with someone who is blind,
and how those people involved in the simulation might react in the
interaction. One of the reasons why blindness is viewed as so
stigmatizing is that the average person has no skills with which to
feel comfortable in a non-sighted oriented environment. In other
words, it might be interesting not only to see how people react to
someone who is blind after undergoing a blindness simulation, but it
would also be interesting to know how those people interact with
someone blind after undergoing a blindness simulation and possibly
learning of a skill which would facilitate their comfort ability level
while they participate in that simulation. I would think that
acquiring this skill might lead participants to healthier beliefs
concerning blind people, as now they are able to achieve something
while blind, and not just see themselves as stumbling around.

Perhaps these attitudes can be measured by also having participants
view vignettes of blind individuals performing an activity, and
assessing on a scale, how competent they view the blind person as
being while doing so. For example: A blind woman walking up to the
curve who is clearly going to cross the street: a blind man who is
about to fire up a BBQ grill…

Alex


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Aug 26 16:22:01 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:22:01 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
In-Reply-To: <646283.21736.qm@web53803.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <646283.21736.qm@web53803.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <664344D2-2BA5-4E00-B1AF-CB474F9B4B90@mac.com>

Its a little more complicated then simply using GPS technology.
It requires some scanners to spot obsticles arround it, directional mechanisms such as a compass so it can tell itself where it is, etc., but certainly doable if you have the right funds.




On Aug 26, 2010, at 1:32 AM, Anmol Bhatia wrote:

> Good idea Jewel. Realisticly would you suggest would much more likely to happen then cars that blind people can drive. What you are suggesting can actually be achieved I am sure of this. It would just require some thinking. Perhaps using the technology in current GPS devices to make what you are suggesting happen. But I think it can be done.
> Anmol
> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers.
> Hellen Keller
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 8/26/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [stylist] Instead of Cars, Jobs
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: Thursday, August 26, 2010, 12:35 AM
>> On the subject of transportation and
>> the alternatives to the dreaded
>> buses and such...why haven't they developed something much
>> simpler,
>> like a motorized scooter that has a system for feedback
>> that a cane
>> provides...I imagine it is difficult to use a cane from a
>> motorized
>> scooter or wheelchair...what are the alternatives? I know
>> about the K
>> Sonar...but they say that it is not a replacement but
>> should be used
>> *with* the white cane...what else is avaialble? Why not
>> create
>> something like what they are working on for the blind
>> driver challenge
>> for wheelchairs that points out obstacles and indicates how
>> to avoid
>> stuff like that? What do you guys think of this? Motorized
>> wheelchairs
>> and scooters go much slower than cars, and have far fewer
>> dangers
>> since they are on sidewalks where there aren't
>> high-speeding vehicles
>> to watch out for...but I think it'd be a great tool. Or
>> what about
>> those things that people stand on that are motorized, like
>> min-scooters...you know, like some mall cops use? I forgot
>> what they
>> are called...anyone remember? We could maybe figure out
>> some way of
>> making those easier to use by the blind?
>> 
>> I know I for one would be grateful for an easier way to get
>> around
>> than my own two feet...I have mobility and balance issues
>> and
>> sometimes struggle a lot walking around town. I'd be soo
>> grateful for
>> some way of navigating with a a small motorized mobility
>> tool like a
>> scooter or that thing mall cops use. Ideas? Comments?
>> 
>> ~Jewel
>> 
>> On 8/25/10, Sean Whalen <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> There is absolutely no way that blind people will be
>> driving cars on
>>> America's roadways within 10 years, or 20 for that
>> matter. I highly doubt
>>> whether it will even be technically feasible in 10
>> years, but am absolutely
>>> certain that such a system will not have gained the
>> requisite widespread
>>> public acceptance within that time frame.
>>> 
>>> Having a generation of literate blind children would
>> open more employment
>>> opportunities than a car operable by the blind. So
>> will the slow, but
>>> persistent, shifting of public attitudes relative to
>> the capacities of blind
>>> people. The idea that the existence of a car drivable
>> by blind people will
>>> all of a sudden create employment opportunities is, in
>> my opinion,
>>> misguided. I also don't by the idea that seeing a
>> blind person operating a
>>> vehicle will shift public attitudes significantly. I
>> think people will be
>>> impressed as hell by the technology, but am not
>> convinced that they will
>>> view blind people as any more capable.
>>> 
>>> I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to hop in a
>> car and go where I want
>>> to go when I want to go there, but there are a number
>> of ways the resources
>>> being poured into this project could be better spent.
>> They have been
>>> outlined here before, so I won't go into that here. I
>> surely understand that
>>> there will be advancements in technology made, which
>> will benefit the
>>> sighted and the blind alike, because of the ambitious
>> undertaking of such a
>>> project. The work that is being done is impressive,
>> interesting and
>>> innovative. It just seems to me that, given the fact
>> that we are working
>>> with limited resources, we could focus them elsewhere
>> with more immediate
>>> effect.
>>> 
>>> Sean
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Aug 26 16:41:59 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 09:41:59 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Interactions....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTiniWzTZ_jGcBUdMYq2QxV_6UQ_UTUWhP8DbxZGk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTiniWzTZ_jGcBUdMYq2QxV_6UQ_UTUWhP8DbxZGk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65570943-7BBD-44A5-A15A-30D4638F69BE@mac.com>

Good point Alex.
Its like that question that people keep asking me a lot, which is "would you want to be sighted?"
The thing many people don't get, is that since blindness for many of us has been since a very early age, and something around which we learn all our skills and techniques, sight for us would mean getting used to a whole new world--and its the same thing for blindness simulation extercies.
Sighted people don't know the skills to get around places, since all their skills rely on vision, and hence the bad impression.

I think Alex's points are very good, and you should also try to contrast the 2 types of simmulations, 1 with skills learned and 1 without, see if that changes that way people communicate with real-life situations that include blind people.

Jorge










On Aug 26, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Alexander Castillo wrote:

> Hi Arielle, distinguishing the obnoxious from the helpful is something
> I do on a daily basis, as I live in NYC and New Yorkers tend to be one
> or the other, and rarely in the middle.
> 
> A simple statement that might help is that the obnoxious person
> believes you need their help, and will directly or indirectly inform
> you of this belief; as where the helpful person will offer when
> appropriate.
> 
> Someone obnoxious will stand and expect me to sit when I enter a
> subway car. Someone helpful will ask me if I would like a seat.
> 
> You mentioned having participants undergo blindness simulations, and
> blindness simulations and then interaction with someone who is blind,
> and how those people involved in the simulation might react in the
> interaction. One of the reasons why blindness is viewed as so
> stigmatizing is that the average person has no skills with which to
> feel comfortable in a non-sighted oriented environment. In other
> words, it might be interesting not only to see how people react to
> someone who is blind after undergoing a blindness simulation, but it
> would also be interesting to know how those people interact with
> someone blind after undergoing a blindness simulation and possibly
> learning of a skill which would facilitate their comfort ability level
> while they participate in that simulation. I would think that
> acquiring this skill might lead participants to healthier beliefs
> concerning blind people, as now they are able to achieve something
> while blind, and not just see themselves as stumbling around.
> 
> Perhaps these attitudes can be measured by also having participants
> view vignettes of blind individuals performing an activity, and
> assessing on a scale, how competent they view the blind person as
> being while doing so. For example: A blind woman walking up to the
> curve who is clearly going to cross the street: a blind man who is
> about to fire up a BBQ grill…
> 
> Alex
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Thu Aug 26 17:18:13 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 13:18:13 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Interactions....
In-Reply-To: <65570943-7BBD-44A5-A15A-30D4638F69BE@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTiniWzTZ_jGcBUdMYq2QxV_6UQ_UTUWhP8DbxZGk@mail.gmail.com>
	<65570943-7BBD-44A5-A15A-30D4638F69BE@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6AF72B314EBB464F9CDE11A7C9E7B3E8@AnitaAdkinsPC>

The discussion here is very interesting.  I agree with Alex and George.  To 
add to that, I think that the more sighted people are around confident and 
competent blind people and the more they personally experience performing 
tasks without vision on their own, the more confident they will become. 
Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Interactions....


Good point Alex.
Its like that question that people keep asking me a lot, which is "would you 
want to be sighted?"
The thing many people don't get, is that since blindness for many of us has 
been since a very early age, and something around which we learn all our 
skills and techniques, sight for us would mean getting used to a whole new 
world--and its the same thing for blindness simulation extercies.
Sighted people don't know the skills to get around places, since all their 
skills rely on vision, and hence the bad impression.

I think Alex's points are very good, and you should also try to contrast the 
2 types of simmulations, 1 with skills learned and 1 without, see if that 
changes that way people communicate with real-life situations that include 
blind people.

Jorge










On Aug 26, 2010, at 7:38 AM, Alexander Castillo wrote:

> Hi Arielle, distinguishing the obnoxious from the helpful is something
> I do on a daily basis, as I live in NYC and New Yorkers tend to be one
> or the other, and rarely in the middle.
>
> A simple statement that might help is that the obnoxious person
> believes you need their help, and will directly or indirectly inform
> you of this belief; as where the helpful person will offer when
> appropriate.
>
> Someone obnoxious will stand and expect me to sit when I enter a
> subway car. Someone helpful will ask me if I would like a seat.
>
> You mentioned having participants undergo blindness simulations, and
> blindness simulations and then interaction with someone who is blind,
> and how those people involved in the simulation might react in the
> interaction. One of the reasons why blindness is viewed as so
> stigmatizing is that the average person has no skills with which to
> feel comfortable in a non-sighted oriented environment. In other
> words, it might be interesting not only to see how people react to
> someone who is blind after undergoing a blindness simulation, but it
> would also be interesting to know how those people interact with
> someone blind after undergoing a blindness simulation and possibly
> learning of a skill which would facilitate their comfort ability level
> while they participate in that simulation. I would think that
> acquiring this skill might lead participants to healthier beliefs
> concerning blind people, as now they are able to achieve something
> while blind, and not just see themselves as stumbling around.
>
> Perhaps these attitudes can be measured by also having participants
> view vignettes of blind individuals performing an activity, and
> assessing on a scale, how competent they view the blind person as
> being while doing so. For example: A blind woman walking up to the
> curve who is clearly going to cross the street: a blind man who is
> about to fire up a BBQ grill…
>
> Alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 




From mrsmigs at migliorelli.org  Thu Aug 26 17:18:42 2010
From: mrsmigs at migliorelli.org (Maryann Migliorelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:18:42 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Online Dictionary?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimTXcGLfA8-9mKxZM+omNODxD_y0U+H38mKw7aA@mail.gmail.com>	<E6F10D2A98D4447484B4AB1839CAA4A0@Rufus>
	<AANLkTimk2Pr-0nGobaXQFtStpsti8h2SGn5LAGmKK7hY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01cb4542$bbff2610$33fd7230$@org>

Hi Jewel,  Are you using Jaws?  Have you tried the "research it" function
yet.  There is a good dictionary on it with easy accessibility built in.
Maryann Migliorelli 



From mrsmigs at migliorelli.org  Thu Aug 26 17:18:42 2010
From: mrsmigs at migliorelli.org (Maryann Migliorelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:18:42 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member with intro and a question.
In-Reply-To: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba>
Message-ID: <001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>

Hello Greg,  My name is Maryann Migliorelli, and I am attending Devry also.
I have not had any success yet with the MyScribe books.  I have been getting
my texts from RFB&D and through the publishers when necessary.  You can
contact me off list to chat further at
mrsmigs at migliorelli.org

It would be good to compare notes so to speak.  

Best of luck with your studies.

Regards,

Maryann Migliorelli




From mrsmigs at migliorelli.org  Thu Aug 26 18:27:00 2010
From: mrsmigs at migliorelli.org (Maryann Migliorelli)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 12:27:00 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003101cb454c$48ed1880$dac74980$@org>

There have been many valid points made on this topic, but I'd like to bring
up another.  I think that attitudes of the sighted depend on what type of
simulation they go through, whether or not someone blind goes through it
with them, and whether or not they are given any instruction on alternative
techniques while going through the exercise will all be variables that might
be considered for the study.  Also whether or not the simulation is
discussed after the fact, and is it being done alone or in a group setting
are factors to consider.

One of the questions if asked that deserves major bad points on the study
is, "Where are you trying to go?" as opposed to, "Where are you going?".
The "trying to go" implies that you probably won't make it there.  That's
always been something that annoys me.

Regards,

Maryann Migliorelli



From cassonw at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 20:19:46 2010
From: cassonw at gmail.com (Bill)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 14:19:46 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <003101cb454c$48ed1880$dac74980$@org>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb454c$48ed1880$dac74980$@org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimQwqCozotGx3evvPgRxfooYiZKVMSKCD9S7Dy0@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
I am going to disagree with the point about where are you trying to go. I
think it is a common question to ask of someone you are offering help to.
For example, when my campus is hosting students who are not from the school,
and I hear a group who is not quite sure where they are going, I ask them
where they are trying to go. If a sighted individual were to ask a lost
looking other sighted individual they would pose the question in the same
way. When I offer help to other blind individuals, say at convension or when
I was at a training center, again, the question was where are you trying to
go.I believe it doesn't have much to do with the person's belief if the
other can get there or not. The same applies for a sighted asking a blind,
or a blind asking a blind. Of course, we all prefer being asked if I would
like help rather than demanding information of me. Of course, sadly, we all
know that if a poor helpless blind person were to ask a superior sighted
person, who is lost, if I can help them, the answer is almost always no.

On the more relevant topic, I agree that there should be controls for
whether the sighted individual who goes through blind experiences is given
any training or shown techniques. As we all have heard before from the
sighted who think blindness is closing their eyes and trying to walk around
their own house is, I could never do it. whoever mentioned the grabbing has
probably the most notable point. I just returned from a cruise to mexico, I
think I was grabbed by people on average 10 times a day on the boat.
Honestly people, if my cane touches you, I am not going to fall over.

Well, that's my... a bit more than 2 cents, I hope your research goes well
Arielle.
Bill
Lewis & Clark '11

On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Maryann Migliorelli <
mrsmigs at migliorelli.org> wrote:

> There have been many valid points made on this topic, but I'd like to bring
> up another.  I think that attitudes of the sighted depend on what type of
> simulation they go through, whether or not someone blind goes through it
> with them, and whether or not they are given any instruction on alternative
> techniques while going through the exercise will all be variables that
> might
> be considered for the study.  Also whether or not the simulation is
> discussed after the fact, and is it being done alone or in a group setting
> are factors to consider.
>
> One of the questions if asked that deserves major bad points on the study
> is, "Where are you trying to go?" as opposed to, "Where are you going?".
> The "trying to go" implies that you probably won't make it there.  That's
> always been something that annoys me.
>
> Regards,
>
> Maryann Migliorelli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com
>

From clb5590 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 21:03:39 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 17:03:39 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimQwqCozotGx3evvPgRxfooYiZKVMSKCD9S7Dy0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
	<003101cb454c$48ed1880$dac74980$@org>
	<AANLkTimQwqCozotGx3evvPgRxfooYiZKVMSKCD9S7Dy0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinNVdJANj-DrP6Y+dfPUvOMTMx7ujJOmdK-sL7C@mail.gmail.com>

I somewhat disagree, and this does kind of tangent from the intent of
the discussion, but as i have found that as i have become more
confident with my campus, i have been asked for help, and i am happy
to give directions. Sometimes, if i notice that someone who is being
asked for help isn't able to give the answer, i will politely tell
them where they need to go. It has been humorous at times sensing the
surprise in both of the people, that i knew and the person asked
didn't, but i think that whether we are asked for help might certainly
have something to do with blindness, but confidence in where you are
definitely decreases that probability.

Cindy

On 8/26/10, Bill <cassonw at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I am going to disagree with the point about where are you trying to go. I
> think it is a common question to ask of someone you are offering help to.
> For example, when my campus is hosting students who are not from the school,
> and I hear a group who is not quite sure where they are going, I ask them
> where they are trying to go. If a sighted individual were to ask a lost
> looking other sighted individual they would pose the question in the same
> way. When I offer help to other blind individuals, say at convension or when
> I was at a training center, again, the question was where are you trying to
> go.I believe it doesn't have much to do with the person's belief if the
> other can get there or not. The same applies for a sighted asking a blind,
> or a blind asking a blind. Of course, we all prefer being asked if I would
> like help rather than demanding information of me. Of course, sadly, we all
> know that if a poor helpless blind person were to ask a superior sighted
> person, who is lost, if I can help them, the answer is almost always no.
>
> On the more relevant topic, I agree that there should be controls for
> whether the sighted individual who goes through blind experiences is given
> any training or shown techniques. As we all have heard before from the
> sighted who think blindness is closing their eyes and trying to walk around
> their own house is, I could never do it. whoever mentioned the grabbing has
> probably the most notable point. I just returned from a cruise to mexico, I
> think I was grabbed by people on average 10 times a day on the boat.
> Honestly people, if my cane touches you, I am not going to fall over.
>
> Well, that's my... a bit more than 2 cents, I hope your research goes well
> Arielle.
> Bill
> Lewis & Clark '11
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Maryann Migliorelli <
> mrsmigs at migliorelli.org> wrote:
>
>> There have been many valid points made on this topic, but I'd like to
>> bring
>> up another.  I think that attitudes of the sighted depend on what type of
>> simulation they go through, whether or not someone blind goes through it
>> with them, and whether or not they are given any instruction on
>> alternative
>> techniques while going through the exercise will all be variables that
>> might
>> be considered for the study.  Also whether or not the simulation is
>> discussed after the fact, and is it being done alone or in a group setting
>> are factors to consider.
>>
>> One of the questions if asked that deserves major bad points on the study
>> is, "Where are you trying to go?" as opposed to, "Where are you going?".
>> The "trying to go" implies that you probably won't make it there.  That's
>> always been something that annoys me.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cassonw%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


From corbbo at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 21:11:27 2010
From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbbmacc O'Connor)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 17:11:27 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <auto-000165349118@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
	<D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimyZvA16b0yj1ET949S5j3UkSAsktN3UaA8PJnz@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000165349118@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim16d_-Uhg+hHJPeTyptrBkS1Trs1DcV96O3ZoO@mail.gmail.com>

Seiko isn't making them anymore? I got mine in May for $150, I think
from ILA. I would encourage you to NOT get a cheap Braille
watch...just spend the bucks and get the nicer one. You'll be glad you
did. The only thing I found a little bit challenging to adapt to is
touching lightly enough to not move the hands but heavy enough to read
them. It's easy to change the time accidentally...but after a few
weeks, I got used to it. As for using a watch versus an Iphone...it's
easier to check in a meeting than pulling out my phone...less
impolite.

I haven't heard too many good things about the ones at the
Independence Market. I love the Market, don't get me wrong...but their
watches are a little on the cheapy side.

And, for guys looking for Braille watches, you're in luck -- there's
only one that I could find! I think there might be a few for
women..but the selection isn't huge.

Corbb



On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:45 PM, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> The Seikko is battery-powered.
>
> Dave
>
> At 08:49 PM 8/18/2010, you wrote:
>>
>> Hi All:
>>
>> Okay.
>>
>> Are the seiko ones battery-powered or wind-up?
>>
>> Kerri
>
>                        David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com
>


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 22:14:06 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:14:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] braille watches help!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim16d_-Uhg+hHJPeTyptrBkS1Trs1DcV96O3ZoO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <665072.83168.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<EC5AB4052A614A29AA0D9F95D3EAD00C@DB8D43F1>
	<AANLkTi=tH1gveozcmAWTnJeAXEdOo_PbSmmXip1nnN2Y@mail.gmail.com>
	<BB4C270538124BBA9E8A984010285A57@D3DTZP41>
	<AANLkTim96NvJLuzBsTyw73UbF4rOqzM7KnuERAsHU6NX@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A2CDEA3D5594CEB94D7BD902AE81140@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikvfSUeH7mqTRP1uiTitSv9Xnr9xq=wvgd2ZTdq@mail.gmail.com>
	<D77DF75A-8FF4-4872-A53E-3B91D65F3361@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimyZvA16b0yj1ET949S5j3UkSAsktN3UaA8PJnz@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000165349118@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<AANLkTim16d_-Uhg+hHJPeTyptrBkS1Trs1DcV96O3ZoO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ezaR2hnpXSNtQLJyiUm2voBhkUvPihe09Mx6k@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Corb:

Thanks for your message!

It's a little late lol, as I went ahead and ordered a $45 quartz one.

I was told by my friend Seiko wasn't making them anymore, but looking
online you can still find them, they are just really expensive...like
$150 or more.

I probably should've went ahead and spent the bucks and gotten a good
one but I figured if I don't like this one or it breaks or something
I'm not out of too much money.

I'm going to see how I like this quartz one and if I really don't like
it I'll consider spending the bucks and getting a more expensive one
like the Seiko.

Thanks so much for your message!
Kerri

On 8/26/10, Corbbmacc O'Connor <corbbo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Seiko isn't making them anymore? I got mine in May for $150, I think
> from ILA. I would encourage you to NOT get a cheap Braille
> watch...just spend the bucks and get the nicer one. You'll be glad you
> did. The only thing I found a little bit challenging to adapt to is
> touching lightly enough to not move the hands but heavy enough to read
> them. It's easy to change the time accidentally...but after a few
> weeks, I got used to it. As for using a watch versus an Iphone...it's
> easier to check in a meeting than pulling out my phone...less
> impolite.
>
> I haven't heard too many good things about the ones at the
> Independence Market. I love the Market, don't get me wrong...but their
> watches are a little on the cheapy side.
>
> And, for guys looking for Braille watches, you're in luck -- there's
> only one that I could find! I think there might be a few for
> women..but the selection isn't huge.
>
> Corbb
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:45 PM, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> The Seikko is battery-powered.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 08:49 PM 8/18/2010, you wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All:
>>>
>>> Okay.
>>>
>>> Are the seiko ones battery-powered or wind-up?
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>
>>                        David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
>> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/corbbo%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 22:46:30 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:46:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba>
	<001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
Message-ID: <CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>


I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or book 
share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital files of the 
book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of the book, I am 
going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of a professional 
company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner with a paper feed 
device that works well with OCR software?

Thanks
Mark



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 22:54:08 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:54:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
	<CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS12B8B6F287B4E066BF8CBA8B850@phx.gbl>


There are tons of answers to this question but here are the onesI have.
Try talking to your disabilities office they can contact the publisher as to 
a digital edition.  Keep in mind you do have to either buy the 
non-accessible digital edition first or purchase the standard print textbook 
for them to provide this.  The federation is trying to go after publishers 
to try and directly download our own books but only a few publishers have 
agreed as you can already see.
Rob Blachowicz
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions

>
> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or book 
> share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital files of 
> the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of the book, I 
> am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of a professional 
> company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner with a paper feed 
> device that works well with OCR software?
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From jp100 at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 26 22:54:23 2010
From: jp100 at earthlink.net (Jim)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:54:23 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Facebook?
Message-ID: <005e01cb4571$a13de440$e3b9acc0$@net>

Is it me or have they changed the Mobile Facebook site?  I no longer know
when new notifications are out, and the beginning part of the site has
changed somewhat.

Any idea what's going on?

Jim

 


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 26 23:01:22 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:01:22 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS12B8B6F287B4E066BF8CBA8B850@phx.gbl>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org><CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
	<BAY130-DS12B8B6F287B4E066BF8CBA8B850@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <88CC4BC3F1834A52B66A819C2C522802@SonyPC>

Thanks for your answer, but I forgot to mention. I am in high school, and 
high schools don't have a college stile disability office. The school did 
what they know, AKA contacting RFBD and book share, but they are like, we 
don't know what to do. So, to be able to have the books by the time school 
starts, I have to find a solution on how to make the text books digital.

Thanks
Mark


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions


>
> There are tons of answers to this question but here are the onesI have.
> Try talking to your disabilities office they can contact the publisher as 
> to a digital edition.  Keep in mind you do have to either buy the 
> non-accessible digital edition first or purchase the standard print 
> textbook for them to provide this.  The federation is trying to go after 
> publishers to try and directly download our own books but only a few 
> publishers have agreed as you can already see.
> Rob Blachowicz
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
>
>>
>> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or book 
>> share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital files of 
>> the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of the book, I 
>> am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of a 
>> professional company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner with a 
>> paper feed device that works well with OCR software?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 26 23:38:21 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:38:21 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <88CC4BC3F1834A52B66A819C2C522802@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org><CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC><BAY130-DS12B8B6F287B4E066BF8CBA8B850@phx.gbl>
	<88CC4BC3F1834A52B66A819C2C522802@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS2D5075BC9DDEB8D515A2C8B850@phx.gbl>



Ok well y ou can call the publisher but they will tell u that you need a 
school administrator to sign off on it.  So they will usually ask you for 
theschools fax number.
 --------------------------------------------------
From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 7:01 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions

> Thanks for your answer, but I forgot to mention. I am in high school, and 
> high schools don't have a college stile disability office. The school did 
> what they know, AKA contacting RFBD and book share, but they are like, we 
> don't know what to do. So, to be able to have the books by the time school 
> starts, I have to find a solution on how to make the text books digital.
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
>
>
>>
>> There are tons of answers to this question but here are the onesI have.
>> Try talking to your disabilities office they can contact the publisher as 
>> to a digital edition.  Keep in mind you do have to either buy the 
>> non-accessible digital edition first or purchase the standard print 
>> textbook for them to provide this.  The federation is trying to go after 
>> publishers to try and directly download our own books but only a few 
>> publishers have agreed as you can already see.
>> Rob Blachowicz
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
>>
>>>
>>> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or 
>>> book share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital 
>>> files of the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of 
>>> the book, I am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of 
>>> a professional company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner 
>>> with a paper feed device that works well with OCR software?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org  Thu Aug 26 23:43:30 2010
From: gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org (Greg)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:43:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
	<CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <E35D497C12794393AFF41DAF092A03B3@GregsToshiba>

Hello Mark,
Try www.coursesmart .com  I have been looking into them.  Their textbooks 
are all in an electronic format.  From what I read on an accessibility link 
on the site, they are committed to accessibility.  You can either get the 
books in an online format or downloadable format that you read with their 
reader.  You get the books for 180 days and you can copy and paste what you 
need.  I have not purchased a book yet, but I thought I would mention it. 
Their prices seem pretty reasonable.
Hope this helps,
Greg W.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions


>
> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or book 
> share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital files of 
> the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of the book, I 
> am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of a professional 
> company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner with a paper feed 
> device that works well with OCR software?
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gwblindman1%40gwblindman.org 



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 00:03:18 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:03:18 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <E35D497C12794393AFF41DAF092A03B3@GregsToshiba>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
	<CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
	<E35D497C12794393AFF41DAF092A03B3@GregsToshiba>
Message-ID: <3CFB282C-7525-4D1C-9A6C-C5FDA86F60FC@gmail.com>

Just make sure the books are actually accessible... Maybe you can send them an email or call them or something... These days everyone loves saying that they are committed to accessibility, but that really doesn't necessarily mean that their products are actually accessible to everyone...
On Aug 26, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Greg wrote:

> Hello Mark,
> Try www.coursesmart .com  I have been looking into them.  Their textbooks are all in an electronic format.  From what I read on an accessibility link on the site, they are committed to accessibility.  You can either get the books in an online format or downloadable format that you read with their reader.  You get the books for 180 days and you can copy and paste what you need.  I have not purchased a book yet, but I thought I would mention it. Their prices seem pretty reasonable.
> Hope this helps,
> Greg W.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
> 
> 
>> 
>> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or book share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital files of the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of the book, I am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of a professional company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner with a paper feed device that works well with OCR software?
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Mark
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gwblindman1%40gwblindman.org 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Fri Aug 27 00:03:24 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:03:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Facebook?
In-Reply-To: <005e01cb4571$a13de440$e3b9acc0$@net>
References: <005e01cb4571$a13de440$e3b9acc0$@net>
Message-ID: <5286F6E1-1F59-4DEA-BF84-3B2AAB158B55@insightbb.com>

Yes, it looks different to me as well.  It seems as though there are numbers after each post that I have no clue of the purpose.  
On Aug 26, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Jim wrote:

> Is it me or have they changed the Mobile Facebook site?  I no longer know
> when new notifications are out, and the beginning part of the site has
> changed somewhat.
> 
> Any idea what's going on?
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 00:11:14 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:11:14 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <3CFB282C-7525-4D1C-9A6C-C5FDA86F60FC@gmail.com>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org><CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC><E35D497C12794393AFF41DAF092A03B3@GregsToshiba>
	<3CFB282C-7525-4D1C-9A6C-C5FDA86F60FC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A55B297186684D8494000AB731467604@SonyPC>

Those books on that website say that they work on the i-pad. Anyone have 
experience with e-text on the i-pad?

Thanks for all of your quick responses.
Mark


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ignasi Cambra" <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions


> Just make sure the books are actually accessible... Maybe you can send 
> them an email or call them or something... These days everyone loves 
> saying that they are committed to accessibility, but that really doesn't 
> necessarily mean that their products are actually accessible to 
> everyone...
> On Aug 26, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Greg wrote:
>
>> Hello Mark,
>> Try www.coursesmart .com  I have been looking into them.  Their textbooks 
>> are all in an electronic format.  From what I read on an accessibility 
>> link on the site, they are committed to accessibility.  You can either 
>> get the books in an online format or downloadable format that you read 
>> with their reader.  You get the books for 180 days and you can copy and 
>> paste what you need.  I have not purchased a book yet, but I thought I 
>> would mention it. Their prices seem pretty reasonable.
>> Hope this helps,
>> Greg W.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or 
>>> book share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital 
>>> files of the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of 
>>> the book, I am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of 
>>> a professional company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner 
>>> with a paper feed device that works well with OCR software?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gwblindman1%40gwblindman.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 27 01:51:12 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:51:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone had experience with Certiport testing?
Message-ID: <3F242AA0829A4B88A5EB3D06012060A3@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     Anyone had experience using Certiport testing? How accessible was it? Thank you.

Regards,

Robert

From serenacucco at verizon.net  Fri Aug 27 02:16:32 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 22:16:32 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about juggling 	multiple items)
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D04D2182C16E46278B19CC20A43FD484@Serene>

I really don't see why the DSS office can't find a volunteer to carry your 
backpack for you.  After all, they don't have to spend anymore money to do 
that.  Since you have a mobility impairment, having someone carry your 
backpack is similar to using a reader, except maybe, the person won't get 
paid.  Other than that, I don't have any creative ideas myself.  However, I 
have a good friend with a mobility impairment who might have some ideas. 
I'll ask her ...

Serena


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:47 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about 
juggling multiple items)


> Hi everyone,
>
> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
> hand something fierce!
>
> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>
> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
> well.
>
> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
> backpack or other items?
>
> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
> falling often.
>
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net 



From jbahm at pcdesk.net  Fri Aug 27 02:19:37 2010
From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger)
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:19:37 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Alice,
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAPimgd9JHzREvUyTkwMMSxzCgAAAEAAAANgWEr7Fpp5Gj1t/l/lFU+QBAAAAAA==@knology.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAPimgd9JHzREvUyTkwMMSxzCgAAAEAAAANgWEr7Fpp5Gj1t/l/lFU+QBAAAAAA==@knology.net>
Message-ID: <4C7720B9.2050202@pcdesk.net>

Corey,
As it happens there are two possible things with that name. One of them
is a programming language which follows the functional paradigm. It's a
lot like ML. The other is a software package designed to teach
programming. It's an object oriented language which is heavily
integrated with it's IDE. Which Alice are you refering to?
-- 
They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
$ ar m God
ar: creating God
There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
really does exist!
Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
On 8/23/2010 5:51 PM, Corey Cook wrote:
> Hello all,
> Are any of you familiar with a software application called alice?
> It is going to be used in my programming concepts class and I am wondering
> if any of you have experience using it with jaws.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net


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From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 05:49:54 2010
From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:49:54 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Facebook?
In-Reply-To: <5286F6E1-1F59-4DEA-BF84-3B2AAB158B55@insightbb.com>
References: <005e01cb4571$a13de440$e3b9acc0$@net>
	<5286F6E1-1F59-4DEA-BF84-3B2AAB158B55@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXFYmw=eeH2aG3p7Y0Bw5DSUa09E73KGBGvfwJ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Jim,
  Yes, it does look like they have changed the site a bit, which is
done way too often in my opinion. There is still a link to view all
notifications on the home page, but it's trickier to tell which ones
are new. I personally set Facebook to email me whenever a new
notification comes in so this is less of a problem for me.
And Kimberly-- The number after each post is the number of people who
liked that post. You can tell this by clicking on the number, which
takes you to a list of their names.
   Katie

On 8/26/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Yes, it looks different to me as well.  It seems as though there are numbers
> after each post that I have no clue of the purpose.
> On Aug 26, 2010, at 6:54 PM, Jim wrote:
>
>> Is it me or have they changed the Mobile Facebook site?  I no longer know
>> when new notifications are out, and the beginning part of the site has
>> changed somewhat.
>>
>> Any idea what's going on?
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com
>


From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 07:29:07 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 03:29:07 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <A55B297186684D8494000AB731467604@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org><CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC><E35D497C12794393AFF41DAF092A03B3@GregsToshiba>
	<3CFB282C-7525-4D1C-9A6C-C5FDA86F60FC@gmail.com>
	<A55B297186684D8494000AB731467604@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <C06A8077-39E7-4F96-B01F-0481DDD157D5@gmail.com>

Again, eBooks downloaded through iBooks from the Apple eBook store work really well on the iPad, and PDF files which contain text will also work just fine. But a PDF with pictures of scanned pages, for example, will work well on the iPad for most people, but not for us.
On Aug 26, 2010, at 8:11 PM, Mark J. Cadigan wrote:

> Those books on that website say that they work on the i-pad. Anyone have experience with e-text on the i-pad?
> 
> Thanks for all of your quick responses.
> Mark
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ignasi Cambra" <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 8:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
> 
> 
>> Just make sure the books are actually accessible... Maybe you can send them an email or call them or something... These days everyone loves saying that they are committed to accessibility, but that really doesn't necessarily mean that their products are actually accessible to everyone...
>> On Aug 26, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Greg wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Mark,
>>> Try www.coursesmart .com  I have been looking into them.  Their textbooks are all in an electronic format.  From what I read on an accessibility link on the site, they are committed to accessibility.  You can either get the books in an online format or downloadable format that you read with their reader.  You get the books for 180 days and you can copy and paste what you need.  I have not purchased a book yet, but I thought I would mention it. Their prices seem pretty reasonable.
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> Greg W.
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or book share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital files of the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of the book, I am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of a professional company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner with a paper feed device that works well with OCR software?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Mark
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gwblindman1%40gwblindman.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 12:48:50 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:48:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
 please? (Question about juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <D04D2182C16E46278B19CC20A43FD484@Serene>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<D04D2182C16E46278B19CC20A43FD484@Serene>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinn+mxYhrpDP0yLENrjPNB2dZev1oxdU8Xp4bk0@mail.gmail.com>

Well, because of the lack of equipment (don't even have JAWS now, nor
even Microsoft Word), I had to drop my classes. If I left right after
classes, I didn't get home until 6:30pm, so staying after school to do
homework was not possible with my chronic fatigue, and the trips back
and forth just to do homework were driving me crazy already, and it
was just the first week! I told DSB that if they were not going to get
my equipment until the end of the semester, I would have to drop my
classes until they *did* get my equipment. I've been told that I'll be
lucky if it comes in by December...totally ridiculous, isn't it? Four
months?? I've never heard of anyone having to wait four months to get
equipment for school.

Anyway, for the first week, I just carried a bag on my back (since I
only had my binder, paper, voice recorder, and slate and stylus). That
worked, though my shoulder hurt by the end of the day. Still not sure
what I'll do when I have the equipment I need...DSS just won't do it,
saying they don't have the resources.

~Jewel

On 8/26/10, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
> I really don't see why the DSS office can't find a volunteer to carry your
> backpack for you.  After all, they don't have to spend anymore money to do
> that.  Since you have a mobility impairment, having someone carry your
> backpack is similar to using a reader, except maybe, the person won't get
> paid.  Other than that, I don't have any creative ideas myself.  However, I
> have a good friend with a mobility impairment who might have some ideas.
> I'll ask her ...
>
> Serena
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:47 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
> juggling multiple items)
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>> hand something fierce!
>>
>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>
>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>> well.
>>
>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>> backpack or other items?
>>
>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>> falling often.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 15:13:25 2010
From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:13:25 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B0B86A95CA047CBAEC52496CE5735F2@OwnerPC>

For many years I worked at a summer camp for the blind.  We had both blind 
and sighted staff, and that varry experience was part of the training for 
the sighted staf.  We did several activities in witch the sighted staff 
members had to be blindfolded.  The first one to get them comfortable was 
traveling sighted guide with a blind person as the guide.  The blindfolded 
staff also had to travel a rout with a cane, but no guide.  They then hade 
to get through a lunch line with their tray and eat blind folded.  It was 
always interesting to hear the opinians of those who had to be blind folded. 
Most felt helpless at first and moved very slowly for feer of running in to 
something or tripping.  But we tought them to look for different texters and 
terains with their feet and canes, and most prefered a cane to a flashlight 
when travling at night.  Eating was funny as many of them made messes or 
barely ate because they couldn't find their food.  Once we taught them 
techniques they realized it wasn't as hard as they thought it was.  Most of 
the people who traind in this manner came to have grate respect for the 
blind, and realize blind people can do most if not all that a sighted person 
can do.  They didn't coddle our blind campers and instead encouraged them to 
be as independent as possible.  There is of course acceptions to every rool 
and a fiew became obnoctiously over helpful as all they got from the 
expirience was that it was hard for them so it must be hard for us.  That 
however is a risk you take with that training. Most liked the expirience and 
wanted to learn more throughout the summer, and treeted us like human 
beeings. The fiew who still over dramatized the blind are stupid and 
incapable of learning much or just didn't want to learn and didn't pay 
attention.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:21 PM
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Cc: <jason.gwinn at colorado.edu>
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions

> Hi all,
>
> So this isn't directly related to NABS, but I wanted to ask you for
> some brainstorming help and start a discussion which I think we will
> all find fun and personally relevant:
>
> As you may know, I'm working on my Ph.D. in social psychology. One of
> my co-grad students and I are designing an experiment to investigate
> the effects of blindness simulations (i.e. activities where people
> blindfold themselves and stumble around a room for a few minutes, eat
> a meal, etc.) on sighted people's attitudes and actions toward blind
> people. More generally, we're interested in finding out how sighted
> people try to understand the perspective of being blind and how those
> attempts affect their beliefs about blindness. Based on
> perspective-taking theory and past research (as well as my personal
> experience with blindness simulation exercises), we are predicting
> that when people do blindness simulations, they may like us more and
> express more sympathy and desire to help the blind, but that they will
> also think of the blind as less competent or capable, since they just
> went through the frightening and disconcerting experience of "being
> blind" and might be inclined to think that this is how real blind
> people feel and act.
>
> We have some ways of measuring people's attitudes toward the blind,
> but we'd also like to set up a real interaction with a real blind
> person and assess how sighted people treat a real person, and if
> people act differently toward a real blind person when they have
> undergone a blindness simulation. We think that people who do the
> simulation might tend to be more excessively or obnoxiously helpful,
> or less respectful, toward a blind person. What we're trying to figure
> out is how to measure this "over-helpfulness" in a way that shows that
> it's clearly undesirable. For example, we can't just keep track of how
> many people try to help the blind person and how many people don't,
> since people might argue that helping the blind is a good thing and
> that maybe these simulations are actually a good idea.
>
> So my question for you guys is, in your experience, what distinguishes
> people who are appropriately helpful from people who are obnoxiously
> so? Can you think of any good ways we can quantify these kinds of
> undesirable interactions, which I know we've all had at times with
> members of the public?
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> Arielle
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com
> 


From mrsmigs at migliorelli.org  Fri Aug 27 15:58:41 2010
From: mrsmigs at migliorelli.org (Maryann Migliorelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:58:41 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba>	<001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
	<CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <000b01cb4600$be9e49a0$3bdadce0$@org>

Hi Mark,  Have you tried looking at 
www.coursesmart.com

Are they reasonably accessible?

You may have to have your disability students services office request the
digital copies from the publishers for you.  I had to do that with one of my
books this semester.  Sometimes they already have digital copies in their
office.  It's worth checking on it.
Hope this helps.

Maryann Migliorelli 



From mrsmigs at migliorelli.org  Fri Aug 27 16:04:33 2010
From: mrsmigs at migliorelli.org (Maryann Migliorelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:04:33 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <88CC4BC3F1834A52B66A819C2C522802@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org><CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>	<BAY130-DS12B8B6F287B4E066BF8CBA8B850@phx.gbl>
	<88CC4BC3F1834A52B66A819C2C522802@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <000c01cb4601$8a40b840$9ec228c0$@org>

Hi Mark, You can have your itinerant teacher or school teachers inquire with
the publishers in the same way.  Are these courses or texts brand new?
Perhaps your teachers can check to see if there is a place for collected
materials in your county or state.  You can chat with me off list at
mrsmigs at migliorelli.org for some further suggestions if you'd like.

Regards,

Maryann Migliorelli


From beckyasabo at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 18:24:29 2010
From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (becky sabo )
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:24:29 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
Message-ID: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>

Dear list,

I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my books
from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor stream.  If
anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need this
done as soon as possible.

Sincerely

Becky sabo 


From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 27 18:29:42 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:29:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
In-Reply-To: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS2D6268DBE88EA4CA04A748B860@phx.gbl>


I can help you.  Contact me off list via e-mail and I'll walk you through it 
that way or through phone.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:24 PM
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream

> Dear list,
>
> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my books
> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor stream. 
> If
> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need this
> done as soon as possible.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Becky sabo
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Fri Aug 27 18:31:53 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:31:53 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
In-Reply-To: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
Message-ID: <79DD49E198034491BA7BC6A52AF54E9B@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Hello,  I am pasting the instructions I received from RFB&D on how to do 
this below.  Please note that how to do it from a CD is first, and how to do 
it from a file you downloaded is next.  Anita
"You can locate your RFB&D books in the My Documents folder under RFB&D 
Media Files.

Transferring an RFB&D Book to the Humanware Stream


Before you begin, you will need the following:

·        A PC running under Windows XP or VISTA

·        An SD (secure digital) card

·        Your StreamOR A card reader, capable of reading High capacity SD 
cards.  The reader may either be built into the PC or connected via a USB 
cable.

·        An RFB&D AudioPlus CD or an RFB&D AudioPlus download.

To transfer the book from the CD



1. Insert an SD card into the SD card reader or your player.

2. Insert the CD containing the book into the CD drive of your PC.

3. Open Windows Explorer.  You can press the Windows key with E to 
accomplish this.

4. Find the drive containing the CD by using the arrow keys.

5. Press the Enter key or double click to open it.

6. Press control-a, or if you are using a mouse, highlight all of the files.

7. Press control-C to copy the files to the clipboard.

8. Press the backspace key to return to the list of drives on your PC.

9. Use your arrow keys to find the drive letter of the SD card and press 
enter, or double     click to open it.

10. Find the folder called $VRDTB and press enter or double click to open 
it.

To create a folder inside of this folder, you need to:

Chapter 1 press alt-F, or click File on the menu bar.

Chapter 2 Use the down arrow to find "new," and Press the Enter key,  or 
click on it

Chapter 3 press the enter key on "folder," or click on it.

Chapter 4 In the edit box that appears, type a name for the new folder and 
then press the enter key.

Press the enter key again, or double click to open the folder which you have 
just created.

press control-V to paste the files from the clipboard into the folder.

After all of the files are pasted into the folder, press alt-F4, or click on 
the X to close Windows Explorer.

Please note: If you have a multiple-CD book, you will need to follow all of 
these steps and create a separate folder for each CD.

To ensure that the SD card does not become corrupted, before removing it 
from the card reader, please do the following:



1.  Press the Windows key with B to focus on the sys-tray, or use your 
screen reader's hotkey.

2.  Press the letter S until the focus is on Safely Remove Hardware and then 
press the enter key, or double click to open it.  If you have used your 
screen reader's hotkey to focus on the sys-tray, you may need to enter 
again.

3.  Follow the prompts to stop what may be called "the USB mass Storage 
Device," or the "the SD Memory card."

4.  When you receive the message that it is safe to remove the "USB mass 
storage device," or "the SD memory card," you can close the Safely Remove 
Hardware window and remove the SD card from the card reader.

You are now ready to insert the SD card into the Stream and listen to the 
book.



Transferring from an RFB&D Daisy Download



Chapter 1 Open Windows Explorer.  You can press the Windows key with E to 
accomplish this.
Go to "my documents"

Locate and open the RFB&D Media Files folder
Open the folder for the book you have downloaded (eg.DL-HJ234)
open the CD01 folder
Press control-a, or if you are using a mouse, highlight all of the files.
Press control-C to copy the files to the clipboard.
Locate the list of drives on your PC.
Use your arrow keys to find the drive letter of the SD card and press enter, 
or double click to open it.
Find the folder called $VRDTB and press enter or double click to open it.
To create a folder inside of this folder, you need to:

Chapter 2 Press alt-F, or click File on the menu bar.

Chapter 3 Use the down arrow to find "new," and Press the Enter key,  or 
click on it

Chapter 4 Press the enter key on "folder," or click on it.

Chapter 5 In the edit box that appears, type a name for the new folder and 
then press the enter key.

·

9.      Press the enter key again, or double click to open the folder which 
you have just created.

10.  Press control-V to paste the files from the clipboard into the folder.

11.  After all of the files are pasted into the folder, press alt-F4, or 
click on the X to close Windows Explorer.

Please note: If you have a multiple-CD book, you will need to follow all of 
these steps and create a separate folder for each CD.



To ensure that the SD card does not become corrupted, before removing it 
from the card reader, please do the following:



1.  Press the Windows key with B to focus on the sys-tray, or use your 
screen reader's hotkey.

2.  Press the letter S until the focus is on Safely Remove Hardware and then 
press the enter key, or double click to open it.  If you have used your 
screen reader's hotkey to focus on the sys-tray, you may need to enter 
again.

3.  Follow the prompts to stop what may be called "the USB mass Storage 
Device," or the "the SD Memory card."

4.  When you receive the message that it is safe to remove the "USB mass 
storage device," or "the SD memory card," you can close the Safely Remove 
Hardware window and remove the SD card from the card reader.

You are now ready to insert the SD card into the Stream and listen to the 
book.





Sincerely,





Becky Worrell
Member Services Representative,
Member Services
_______________________________
Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®
20 Roszel Road, Princeton NJ 08540
800-221-4792 / Member Services
609-987-8116 / Fax
rworrell at rfbd.org"
www.rfbd.org



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream


> Dear list,
>
> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my books
> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor stream. 
> If
> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need this
> done as soon as possible.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Becky sabo
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 




From nabs.president at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 19:15:32 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:15:32 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
 please? (Question about juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinn+mxYhrpDP0yLENrjPNB2dZev1oxdU8Xp4bk0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<D04D2182C16E46278B19CC20A43FD484@Serene>
	<AANLkTinn+mxYhrpDP0yLENrjPNB2dZev1oxdU8Xp4bk0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinbDvMswBLstG3Rir+x40VMXokk_DT-4_uATG7C@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jewel,

I'm just curious-what equipment are you currently using to write and
read email and keep up with the NABS list? Are you going on campus or
using public computers to use email, or do you have some way to access
it at home?

I'm just curious if there's any way the computer you're using for
email could also be used for school.

I'm sorry you had to drop your classes, and agree it's ridiculous and
unfortunate you have to wait so long for equipment. I hope you can
find a resolution soon.

Arielle

On 8/27/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, because of the lack of equipment (don't even have JAWS now, nor
> even Microsoft Word), I had to drop my classes. If I left right after
> classes, I didn't get home until 6:30pm, so staying after school to do
> homework was not possible with my chronic fatigue, and the trips back
> and forth just to do homework were driving me crazy already, and it
> was just the first week! I told DSB that if they were not going to get
> my equipment until the end of the semester, I would have to drop my
> classes until they *did* get my equipment. I've been told that I'll be
> lucky if it comes in by December...totally ridiculous, isn't it? Four
> months?? I've never heard of anyone having to wait four months to get
> equipment for school.
>
> Anyway, for the first week, I just carried a bag on my back (since I
> only had my binder, paper, voice recorder, and slate and stylus). That
> worked, though my shoulder hurt by the end of the day. Still not sure
> what I'll do when I have the equipment I need...DSS just won't do it,
> saying they don't have the resources.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/26/10, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>> I really don't see why the DSS office can't find a volunteer to carry your
>> backpack for you.  After all, they don't have to spend anymore money to do
>> that.  Since you have a mobility impairment, having someone carry your
>> backpack is similar to using a reader, except maybe, the person won't get
>> paid.  Other than that, I don't have any creative ideas myself.  However,
>> I
>> have a good friend with a mobility impairment who might have some ideas.
>> I'll ask her ...
>>
>> Serena
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:47 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
>> juggling multiple items)
>>
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>>> hand something fierce!
>>>
>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>
>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>>> backpack or other items?
>>>
>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>> falling often.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Aug 27 19:49:21 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:49:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba>
	<001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
	<CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <auto-000166246830@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Try bookshare.org they may have some and/or they may scan for you and 
make them available to everybody.

Dave

At 05:46 PM 8/26/2010, you wrote:

>I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or 
>book share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital 
>files of the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy 
>of the book, I am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone 
>know of a professional company that will do this? Has anyone found a 
>scanner with a paper feed device that works well with OCR software?
>
>Thanks
>Mark

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Aug 27 19:58:54 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:58:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
In-Reply-To: <88CC4BC3F1834A52B66A819C2C522802@SonyPC>
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba>
	<001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
	<CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
	<BAY130-DS12B8B6F287B4E066BF8CBA8B850@phx.gbl>
	<88CC4BC3F1834A52B66A819C2C522802@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <auto-000168976409@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Well, do you have a techer of the visually impaired?  Can she/he be 
of some help?  Your state should have some mechanism in place for 
getting NIMAS books from publishers, through their resource center 
for the blind or something?  What state are you in?

Also, digital isn't necessarily your only solution.  You might have 
to use yhuman readers -- as we did in the old days.  Not perfect but 
we should have a variety of tools available to us so we can adapt to 
all situations.

Also, RFB&D and bookshare should do bookd when requested.  You will 
have to provide copies and they may not have them right away, so you 
may have to fill in with scanning or human readers.  You can't ever 
assume everything will be available.  When in college I used to work 
one semester ahead, if I could that was back in mid 70's.


Dave

At 06:01 PM 8/26/2010, you wrote:
>Thanks for your answer, but I forgot to mention. I am in high 
>school, and high schools don't have a college stile disability 
>office. The school did what they know, AKA contacting RFBD and book 
>share, but they are like, we don't know what to do. So, to be able 
>to have the books by the time school starts, I have to find a 
>solution on how to make the text books digital.
>
>Thanks
>Mark

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 27 23:58:38 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:58:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
 please? (Question about juggling multiple items)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinbDvMswBLstG3Rir+x40VMXokk_DT-4_uATG7C@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com>
	<D04D2182C16E46278B19CC20A43FD484@Serene>
	<AANLkTinn+mxYhrpDP0yLENrjPNB2dZev1oxdU8Xp4bk0@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinbDvMswBLstG3Rir+x40VMXokk_DT-4_uATG7C@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=M_GiYkGYBT4csUdoNkoGTXc8mO+sd3QOrSr0c@mail.gmail.com>

I am using a personal computer for e-mail and such. It's an old one,
though and has so many problems...I don't have Microsoft Office, so
have to use WordPad, which means I can't do even basic underlining,
bolding, accents, etc. I am using NVDA, which can be a bit of a pain
as a primary, though it is a great secondary screenreader. Not having
JAWS or Word make it very difficult to do many of the assignments I
need. Plus, my Acrobat Reader is broken, and I can't seem to figure
out how to do it. Then there's the lack of a printer...so many
problems, it drove me crazy trying to get my homework done. Oh, and I
can't seem to get internet in my bedroom where my desk is (because I
need lots of quiet to do my work...I get distracted very easily by
sounds), so I have to have my PC in the living room where my boyfriend
and his dog often are...the dog is annoying with all his whining and
squirming, and my b/f often plays games, reads a book, or works on his
own work...he has as much right as I do to have noise, especially
since with his ADHD, he needs background noise to keep him on task.

Anyway, my b/f was able to get internet in my room with his laptop,
but I guess my wireless card is just too weak. I'm hoping the new
laptop will pick it up like his does, and I can do all my homework in
the closed-off quiet of my room where I can concentrate.



On 8/27/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jewel,
>
> I'm just curious-what equipment are you currently using to write and
> read email and keep up with the NABS list? Are you going on campus or
> using public computers to use email, or do you have some way to access
> it at home?
>
> I'm just curious if there's any way the computer you're using for
> email could also be used for school.
>
> I'm sorry you had to drop your classes, and agree it's ridiculous and
> unfortunate you have to wait so long for equipment. I hope you can
> find a resolution soon.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 8/27/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, because of the lack of equipment (don't even have JAWS now, nor
>> even Microsoft Word), I had to drop my classes. If I left right after
>> classes, I didn't get home until 6:30pm, so staying after school to do
>> homework was not possible with my chronic fatigue, and the trips back
>> and forth just to do homework were driving me crazy already, and it
>> was just the first week! I told DSB that if they were not going to get
>> my equipment until the end of the semester, I would have to drop my
>> classes until they *did* get my equipment. I've been told that I'll be
>> lucky if it comes in by December...totally ridiculous, isn't it? Four
>> months?? I've never heard of anyone having to wait four months to get
>> equipment for school.
>>
>> Anyway, for the first week, I just carried a bag on my back (since I
>> only had my binder, paper, voice recorder, and slate and stylus). That
>> worked, though my shoulder hurt by the end of the day. Still not sure
>> what I'll do when I have the equipment I need...DSS just won't do it,
>> saying they don't have the resources.
>>
>> ~Jewel
>>
>> On 8/26/10, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> I really don't see why the DSS office can't find a volunteer to carry
>>> your
>>> backpack for you.  After all, they don't have to spend anymore money to
>>> do
>>> that.  Since you have a mobility impairment, having someone carry your
>>> backpack is similar to using a reader, except maybe, the person won't get
>>> paid.  Other than that, I don't have any creative ideas myself.  However,
>>> I
>>> have a good friend with a mobility impairment who might have some ideas.
>>> I'll ask her ...
>>>
>>> Serena
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:47 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
>>> juggling multiple items)
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>>>> hand something fierce!
>>>>
>>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>>
>>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>>>> backpack or other items?
>>>>
>>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>>> falling often.
>>>>
>>>> ~Jewel
>>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From graduate56 at juno.com  Sat Aug 28 00:41:27 2010
From: graduate56 at juno.com (Melissa Green)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:41:27 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
Message-ID: <40F778502C2942D0922A8799F1675143@melissa>

First, did you download the key from the RFB&D website?
If you haven't done that.  Then the books won't play on your stream.
In order to get a key for your stream.  You must, log on to your online 
account and follow the instructions
on the Authorize a DAISY Player link on the My Account page.
Hth.
Blessings!
Melissa Green
A journey is best measured in friends rather than miles.
Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
liss.wordpress.com
topaz1531.wordpress.com
live journal: topaz5674
Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
twitter: melissa5674
messenger: graduate1531
Skype: lissa5674
Linked in
http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
Friend feed Melissa green

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream


> Dear list,
>
> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my books
> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor stream. 
> If
> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need this
> done as soon as possible.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Becky sabo
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
> 

____________________________________________________________
1 Tip for Losing Weight
Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c785b2bc55938afabbst05duc


From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 02:00:45 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:00:45 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
In-Reply-To: <3B0B86A95CA047CBAEC52496CE5735F2@OwnerPC>
References: <AANLkTik=pwF81uAbmV2LaNEsjS6CAgYVkj4TAbD1uVsN@mail.gmail.com>
	<3B0B86A95CA047CBAEC52496CE5735F2@OwnerPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimojahE5=69Kepx5arVnjedirssQay+r-dx72yF@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with the previous statements.  I think it depends on the
simulation.  Do the simulation once, and you instill fear in the
sighted people who now believe that it is so difficult to be blind,
but give them training and techniques as part of the simulation over
an exptended period of time, and they learn that being blind isn't as
scary as they thought.

Last year someone sat down next to me for lunch and told me that she
had just gone through a blindness simulation.  I can't remember what
her exact words were, but she was like "I had to be blindfolded, and I
just couldn't do it.  I was so afraid I would crash into things."  She
proceeded to ask me how I do things like get around campus confidently
and whatnot.  I told her everything she wanted to know and explained
to her that being blind really isn't that scary because we learn
techniques to deal with everything from walking around to eating.  I
didn't mind explaining this, but I definitely thought it strange that
they didn't cover that as part of the blindness simulation.  The camp
simulation above sounds really cool and worth while, but some of these
one-time simulations are just reinforcing the idea that we as blind
people have such hard lives and can't do anything independently.



On 8/27/10, Andi <adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com> wrote:
> For many years I worked at a summer camp for the blind.  We had both blind
> and sighted staff, and that varry experience was part of the training for
> the sighted staf.  We did several activities in witch the sighted staff
> members had to be blindfolded.  The first one to get them comfortable was
> traveling sighted guide with a blind person as the guide.  The blindfolded
> staff also had to travel a rout with a cane, but no guide.  They then hade
> to get through a lunch line with their tray and eat blind folded.  It was
> always interesting to hear the opinians of those who had to be blind folded.
> Most felt helpless at first and moved very slowly for feer of running in to
> something or tripping.  But we tought them to look for different texters and
> terains with their feet and canes, and most prefered a cane to a flashlight
> when travling at night.  Eating was funny as many of them made messes or
> barely ate because they couldn't find their food.  Once we taught them
> techniques they realized it wasn't as hard as they thought it was.  Most of
> the people who traind in this manner came to have grate respect for the
> blind, and realize blind people can do most if not all that a sighted person
> can do.  They didn't coddle our blind campers and instead encouraged them to
> be as independent as possible.  There is of course acceptions to every rool
> and a fiew became obnoctiously over helpful as all they got from the
> expirience was that it was hard for them so it must be hard for us.  That
> however is a risk you take with that training. Most liked the expirience and
> wanted to learn more throughout the summer, and treeted us like human
> beeings. The fiew who still over dramatized the blind are stupid and
> incapable of learning much or just didn't want to learn and didn't pay
> attention.
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 7:21 PM
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: <jason.gwinn at colorado.edu>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Defining Excessively Helpful People and Interactions
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> So this isn't directly related to NABS, but I wanted to ask you for
>> some brainstorming help and start a discussion which I think we will
>> all find fun and personally relevant:
>>
>> As you may know, I'm working on my Ph.D. in social psychology. One of
>> my co-grad students and I are designing an experiment to investigate
>> the effects of blindness simulations (i.e. activities where people
>> blindfold themselves and stumble around a room for a few minutes, eat
>> a meal, etc.) on sighted people's attitudes and actions toward blind
>> people. More generally, we're interested in finding out how sighted
>> people try to understand the perspective of being blind and how those
>> attempts affect their beliefs about blindness. Based on
>> perspective-taking theory and past research (as well as my personal
>> experience with blindness simulation exercises), we are predicting
>> that when people do blindness simulations, they may like us more and
>> express more sympathy and desire to help the blind, but that they will
>> also think of the blind as less competent or capable, since they just
>> went through the frightening and disconcerting experience of "being
>> blind" and might be inclined to think that this is how real blind
>> people feel and act.
>>
>> We have some ways of measuring people's attitudes toward the blind,
>> but we'd also like to set up a real interaction with a real blind
>> person and assess how sighted people treat a real person, and if
>> people act differently toward a real blind person when they have
>> undergone a blindness simulation. We think that people who do the
>> simulation might tend to be more excessively or obnoxiously helpful,
>> or less respectful, toward a blind person. What we're trying to figure
>> out is how to measure this "over-helpfulness" in a way that shows that
>> it's clearly undesirable. For example, we can't just keep track of how
>> many people try to help the blind person and how many people don't,
>> since people might argue that helping the blind is a good thing and
>> that maybe these simulations are actually a good idea.
>>
>> So my question for you guys is, in your experience, what distinguishes
>> people who are appropriately helpful from people who are obnoxiously
>> so? Can you think of any good ways we can quantify these kinds of
>> undesirable interactions, which I know we've all had at times with
>> members of the public?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Aug 28 02:16:11 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:16:11 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Books
Message-ID: <20100828021611.13232.92773@web1>

At this point, all braille books now have homes. Those of you who I've 
guaranteed books to will get them shortly.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi Jedi.  My name is Julie.  Unless anyone mentions that they want
> anything in particular, I can take all of those.  The Delta Gamma
> center here in St. Louis is trying to set up a braille library.  We
> are doing quite well, but we are looking for new titles all the time,
> and I know for a fact that we do not have a lot of those books.  If
> you email me off list I will give you an address where you can send
> them.  Thanks.

> On 8/21/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> This is an inventory of books I'd like to give away. All of these are
>> in Grade 2 Braille and most are soft cover. Please distribute this list
>> to anyone you think might be interested in some Braille books for their
>> students. Otherwise, feel free to contact me if you wish to get back in
>> touch with your childhood favorites. My e-mail is
>> loneblindjedi at samobile.net. I'd like to have all these in transit to
>> someone else's bookshelf by the end of next week if at all possible.

>> Grade 2 and below
>> The Little Engine That Could
>> The Velveteen Rabbit
>> The Emperors Birthday suit

>> Grades 3-5
>> Through Grampa's Eyes
>> Hurricane
>> Cam Janson and the Mystery of the Missing Dinosaur Bones
>> The Chocolate Touch
>> Trumpet of the Swan
>> Aladdin
>> Bed-Knobs and Broomsticks

>> Grades 6-9
>> Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's stone
>> The Magical Worlds of Harry Potter
>> Ella Enchanted
>> Basic Cooking
>> Black Beauty
>> Pleasing the Ghost
>> The Indian and the Cupboard
>> Blubber
>> Walk Two Moons
>> View from Saturday
>> Alice's Adventures in Wonderland

>> Grades 9 and Over
>> When You Become 18
>> The Pigman
>> The Princess Diaries
>> The Girls' Book of Wisdom

>> Thanks for your help.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com



> --
> Julie McG
>  Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind

> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sat Aug 28 15:22:22 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:22:22 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness Blog reminder
Message-ID: <FCC2D0FEFA71450380FB681CA84C8397@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Hello Everyone,

Just reminding you to check out the Blindness Blog this week and every Friday.  I am about to enter into a new semester of school, and so I might not be sending reminders to you as often.  Please share news about the blog with those you think would find it interesting.  This week, the blog discusses how sound can assist one during travel.
www.blindnessblog.blogspot.com
Thank you.

Anita Adkins

From serenacucco at verizon.net  Sat Aug 28 18:00:51 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:00:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FD875E4E292D4E98B07029A8560B023D@Serene>

Try to use your cane as much as possible.  It is true, however, that most 
sighted people don't know much, if anything, about how to verbally direct 
you.  When you get lost and a stranger helps you, try to ask them to 
verbally direct you.  If, however, you figure out that circumstances make it 
hard to teach the person what to do, E.G. the person seems to not speak very 
good English, or you're not feeling your best that day so don't feel like 
fighting the battle of educating people, it might be better for you to 
simply let he/she guide you back.

Serena


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 7:28 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...


> Hi All!!
>
> I have some more questions!
>
> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has a Seko
> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in the NFB
> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped making this
> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the independence
> market there were like three different ones ranging in price from $45
> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in the Quartz
> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between different
> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that is still
> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at convention and
> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in that area.
>
> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been told when
> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a free white
> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already on it. I
> bought five tips during convention and have been told how to put them
> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my tip is
> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting to
> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels more rough
> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing down? If
> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing it?
>
> Also I want to make sure I know how to change properly...you basically
> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the new tip on
> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is that right?
> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else I should
> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto the cane
> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the new tip on,
> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want to make
> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on lol!
>
> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting lost, and
> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try going to the
> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the open
> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and go straight.
> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting either a
> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped me to the
> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong side), and I
> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to try it again
> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there anything more I
> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane and walked
> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was. I've read
> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person from veering
> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your arc by
> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to side making
> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read that it
> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my doorjamb and
> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I put my cane
> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried tapping in front
> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my arc became
> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of strain...like it felt
> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural somehow...Is
> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I am asking
> these questions is because the more practice I get with my cane, the
> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there anything
> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>
> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much practice with a
> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I can get,
> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I use the
> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and I've been
> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training what's up to me
> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice, practice. I
> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to talk to
> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably better but
> other than those situations should I be using the cane on my own? Ever
> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my cane on
> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me gain
> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is it hard from
> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside them? The
> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want to put the
> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate them...
>
> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the dumpster,and I end
> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help, should I
> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use my cane or
> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because too many
> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When someone
> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the next time I
> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At convention, by
> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which direction to go
> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I have a very
> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on my own.
>
> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I think once
> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so this kind
> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting out...I need
> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or just
> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I don't want
> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation. But, if I am
> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>
> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either gotten
> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very well. It gives
> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane more, and
> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my apartment
> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the pool. My
> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool sometimes. They
> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my own. My
> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the gate at a
> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers fiancae
> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on my left
> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they were
> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told him just
> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the way across
> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had been guided.
>
> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know I've rambled a
> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying to ask and
> why I am asking these questions!
>
> Thanks so much!
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net 



From mrsmigs at migliorelli.org  Sat Aug 28 20:39:31 2010
From: mrsmigs at migliorelli.org (Maryann Migliorelli)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:39:31 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] jaws question
Message-ID: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>

Greetings all,

Does anyone know how to make a bootable drive with Jaws?  I just bought a
new u3 smart drive and need to get Jaws on it for college.  I do have
authorizations left.  I just need to know how to put one on the drive.

Thanks for any help.

If it's easier, you can respond off list at mrsmigs at migliorelli.org

 

Have a great weekend.

 

Study hard and play hard,

 

Maryann Migliorelli 


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sat Aug 28 20:45:18 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:45:18 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] jaws question
In-Reply-To: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>
References: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>
Message-ID: <F9DEC447-8526-45B8-9505-023ADDF07B35@mac.com>

Maryann:
Visit http://www.freedomscientific.com.
All the instructions and files you need to download are there.


Hope this helps.

Jorge




Thanks.



Jorge Paez


---
President And CEO:
Paez Production Networks





Please note:
this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media.

On Aug 28, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Maryann Migliorelli wrote:

> Greetings all,
> 
> Does anyone know how to make a bootable drive with Jaws?  I just bought a
> new u3 smart drive and need to get Jaws on it for college.  I do have
> authorizations left.  I just need to know how to put one on the drive.
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> If it's easier, you can respond off list at mrsmigs at migliorelli.org
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> Study hard and play hard,
> 
> 
> 
> Maryann Migliorelli 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 20:55:20 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:55:20 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness Blog reminder
References: <FCC2D0FEFA71450380FB681CA84C8397@AnitaAdkinsPC>
Message-ID: <E2D1806666694675A1F4B01F7EBC7C2B@Netbook>

I just subscribed to your blog in my SharpReader.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anita Adkins" <aadkins7 at verizon.net>
To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>; "National 
Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "Jobs for 
the Blind" <jobs at nfbnet.org>; "National Organization of Blind Educators 
Mailing List" <nobe-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 08:22
Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness Blog reminder


> Hello Everyone,
>
> Just reminding you to check out the Blindness Blog this week and every 
> Friday.  I am about to enter into a new semester of school, and so I might 
> not be sending reminders to you as often.  Please share news about the 
> blog with those you think would find it interesting.  This week, the blog 
> discusses how sound can assist one during travel.
> www.blindnessblog.blogspot.com
> Thank you.
>
> Anita Adkins
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 21:05:08 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:05:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
In-Reply-To: <40F778502C2942D0922A8799F1675143@melissa>
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
	<40F778502C2942D0922A8799F1675143@melissa>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin3cL5vcS7NW3G9NkGU5y40-9Eduihc=kLUPAj+@mail.gmail.com>

hey all!

Okay, I followed all of the steps listed and I still am having
trouble.  My problem is I've downloaded many RFB&d books onto the
stream.  When I turn it off and power back on all it says is "Notes".
I've ever used a stream before now.  I had the wave before.  so it a
bit different for me.
thanks
Justin

On 8/27/10, Melissa Green <graduate56 at juno.com> wrote:
> First, did you download the key from the RFB&D website?
> If you haven't done that.  Then the books won't play on your stream.
> In order to get a key for your stream.  You must, log on to your online
> account and follow the instructions
> on the Authorize a DAISY Player link on the My Account page.
> Hth.
> Blessings!
> Melissa Green
> A journey is best measured in friends rather than miles.
> Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
> liss.wordpress.com
> topaz1531.wordpress.com
> live journal: topaz5674
> Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
> twitter: melissa5674
> messenger: graduate1531
> Skype: lissa5674
> Linked in
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
> Friend feed Melissa green
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
>
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my books
>> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor stream.
>> If
>> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need this
>> done as soon as possible.
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> Becky sabo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
>>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> 1 Tip for Losing Weight
> Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c785b2bc55938afabbst05duc
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sat Aug 28 21:27:19 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:27:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin3cL5vcS7NW3G9NkGU5y40-9Eduihc=kLUPAj+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
	<40F778502C2942D0922A8799F1675143@melissa>
	<AANLkTin3cL5vcS7NW3G9NkGU5y40-9Eduihc=kLUPAj+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0EE6F60B26224A7587908DDADE0ACB4E@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Did you press the number 1 key repeatedly to go from the Notes Folder around 
to the appropriate folder on Your Victor.  It could be called Talking books 
or DBT or something like that.  Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream


> hey all!
>
> Okay, I followed all of the steps listed and I still am having
> trouble.  My problem is I've downloaded many RFB&d books onto the
> stream.  When I turn it off and power back on all it says is "Notes".
> I've ever used a stream before now.  I had the wave before.  so it a
> bit different for me.
> thanks
> Justin
>
> On 8/27/10, Melissa Green <graduate56 at juno.com> wrote:
>> First, did you download the key from the RFB&D website?
>> If you haven't done that.  Then the books won't play on your stream.
>> In order to get a key for your stream.  You must, log on to your online
>> account and follow the instructions
>> on the Authorize a DAISY Player link on the My Account page.
>> Hth.
>> Blessings!
>> Melissa Green
>> A journey is best measured in friends rather than miles.
>> Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
>> liss.wordpress.com
>> topaz1531.wordpress.com
>> live journal: topaz5674
>> Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
>> twitter: melissa5674
>> messenger: graduate1531
>> Skype: lissa5674
>> Linked in
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
>> Friend feed Melissa green
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
>>
>>
>>> Dear list,
>>>
>>> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my books
>>> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor stream.
>>> If
>>> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need this
>>> done as soon as possible.
>>>
>>> Sincerely
>>>
>>> Becky sabo
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
>>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________
>> 1 Tip for Losing Weight
>> Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c785b2bc55938afabbst05duc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sat Aug 28 21:30:30 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:30:30 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness Blog reminder
In-Reply-To: <E2D1806666694675A1F4B01F7EBC7C2B@Netbook>
References: <FCC2D0FEFA71450380FB681CA84C8397@AnitaAdkinsPC>
	<E2D1806666694675A1F4B01F7EBC7C2B@Netbook>
Message-ID: <DC012090C96B44B99063C1415B5DAB76@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Cool!  What is a SharpReader?  And, just out of curiosity, how did you 
subscribe to the blog because I do not notice a new follower?  I am sort of 
new at doing some of this.  Thanks.  Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blindness Blog reminder


>I just subscribed to your blog in my SharpReader.
>
> Ben
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Anita Adkins" <aadkins7 at verizon.net>
> To: "Writer's Division Mailing List" <stylist at nfbnet.org>; "National 
> Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "Jobs for 
> the Blind" <jobs at nfbnet.org>; "National Organization of Blind Educators 
> Mailing List" <nobe-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 08:22
> Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness Blog reminder
>
>
>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>> Just reminding you to check out the Blindness Blog this week and every 
>> Friday.  I am about to enter into a new semester of school, and so I 
>> might not be sending reminders to you as often.  Please share news about 
>> the blog with those you think would find it interesting.  This week, the 
>> blog discusses how sound can assist one during travel.
>> www.blindnessblog.blogspot.com
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Anita Adkins
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 21:42:02 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:42:02 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
In-Reply-To: <0EE6F60B26224A7587908DDADE0ACB4E@AnitaAdkinsPC>
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
	<40F778502C2942D0922A8799F1675143@melissa>
	<AANLkTin3cL5vcS7NW3G9NkGU5y40-9Eduihc=kLUPAj+@mail.gmail.com>
	<0EE6F60B26224A7587908DDADE0ACB4E@AnitaAdkinsPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik8dTVLXpLENtN41jTTd4vFR+apEJcECeQ_yjnk@mail.gmail.com>

I just tried it and it worked.  I appreciate your help!

On 8/28/10, Anita Adkins <aadkins7 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Did you press the number 1 key repeatedly to go from the Notes Folder around
> to the appropriate folder on Your Victor.  It could be called Talking books
> or DBT or something like that.  Anita
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
>
>
>> hey all!
>>
>> Okay, I followed all of the steps listed and I still am having
>> trouble.  My problem is I've downloaded many RFB&d books onto the
>> stream.  When I turn it off and power back on all it says is "Notes".
>> I've ever used a stream before now.  I had the wave before.  so it a
>> bit different for me.
>> thanks
>> Justin
>>
>> On 8/27/10, Melissa Green <graduate56 at juno.com> wrote:
>>> First, did you download the key from the RFB&D website?
>>> If you haven't done that.  Then the books won't play on your stream.
>>> In order to get a key for your stream.  You must, log on to your online
>>> account and follow the instructions
>>> on the Authorize a DAISY Player link on the My Account page.
>>> Hth.
>>> Blessings!
>>> Melissa Green
>>> A journey is best measured in friends rather than miles.
>>> Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
>>> liss.wordpress.com
>>> topaz1531.wordpress.com
>>> live journal: topaz5674
>>> Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
>>> twitter: melissa5674
>>> messenger: graduate1531
>>> Skype: lissa5674
>>> Linked in
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
>>> Friend feed Melissa green
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:24 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear list,
>>>>
>>>> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my books
>>>> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor stream.
>>>> If
>>>> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need this
>>>> done as soon as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely
>>>>
>>>> Becky sabo
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> 1 Tip for Losing Weight
>>> Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
>>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c785b2bc55938afabbst05duc
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From beckyasabo at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 22:04:46 2010
From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (becky sabo )
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:04:46 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] still need he putting rfb and d books on the victor streem
Message-ID: <6B9ACE8451044ECB95E2298AF8A2A8E5@BeckySabo>

Hello all,

I have a rfb and d key on my victor stream but I can not get my books for
school on the player.  I downloaded my books but some reason they are not
getting onto the stream.  I do not know what I am doing wrong.  If someone
could help me I would appreciate that a lot.

Sincerely 

Becky sabo 


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sat Aug 28 22:11:55 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:11:55 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik8dTVLXpLENtN41jTTd4vFR+apEJcECeQ_yjnk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
	<40F778502C2942D0922A8799F1675143@melissa>
	<AANLkTin3cL5vcS7NW3G9NkGU5y40-9Eduihc=kLUPAj+@mail.gmail.com>
	<0EE6F60B26224A7587908DDADE0ACB4E@AnitaAdkinsPC>
	<AANLkTik8dTVLXpLENtN41jTTd4vFR+apEJcECeQ_yjnk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28DABA66B9EC447C8FAA39C4E86A216D@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Cool.  Remember that 4 and 6 move you back and forward through the list of 
files in the folder, number zero tells you information about your file, free 
space, battery level, etc, number 5 tells you the name of the file you are 
on, and if it is a music track, it will tell you the title of the song and 
artist, I think.  Number eight switches between file and folder.  For 
example, in your music folder, which you would get to by pressing 1 until 
you hear the word music, you might have three different folders.  If you 
have it on file, when you press 4 and 6 to move back and forward, you will 
go from song to song.  However, if you have it on folder, you will skip the 
rest of the files in that particular folder and move to the first file in 
the previous or next folder.  Again, the number eight is the key to switch 
from file to folder.   Sorry if this is confusing.  And, you may not care if 
you are only reading textbooks on there.  hahaha!!!  Enjoy.  Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream


>I just tried it and it worked.  I appreciate your help!
>
> On 8/28/10, Anita Adkins <aadkins7 at verizon.net> wrote:
>> Did you press the number 1 key repeatedly to go from the Notes Folder 
>> around
>> to the appropriate folder on Your Victor.  It could be called Talking 
>> books
>> or DBT or something like that.  Anita
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the 
>> stream
>>
>>
>>> hey all!
>>>
>>> Okay, I followed all of the steps listed and I still am having
>>> trouble.  My problem is I've downloaded many RFB&d books onto the
>>> stream.  When I turn it off and power back on all it says is "Notes".
>>> I've ever used a stream before now.  I had the wave before.  so it a
>>> bit different for me.
>>> thanks
>>> Justin
>>>
>>> On 8/27/10, Melissa Green <graduate56 at juno.com> wrote:
>>>> First, did you download the key from the RFB&D website?
>>>> If you haven't done that.  Then the books won't play on your stream.
>>>> In order to get a key for your stream.  You must, log on to your online
>>>> account and follow the instructions
>>>> on the Authorize a DAISY Player link on the My Account page.
>>>> Hth.
>>>> Blessings!
>>>> Melissa Green
>>>> A journey is best measured in friends rather than miles.
>>>> Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
>>>> liss.wordpress.com
>>>> topaz1531.wordpress.com
>>>> live journal: topaz5674
>>>> Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
>>>> twitter: melissa5674
>>>> messenger: graduate1531
>>>> Skype: lissa5674
>>>> Linked in
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
>>>> Friend feed Melissa green
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:24 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the 
>>>> stream
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my 
>>>>> books
>>>>> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor 
>>>>> stream.
>>>>> If
>>>>> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need 
>>>>> this
>>>>> done as soon as possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely
>>>>>
>>>>> Becky sabo
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>> 1 Tip for Losing Weight
>>>> Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
>>>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c785b2bc55938afabbst05duc
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sat Aug 28 22:24:47 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:24:47 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] still need he putting rfb and d books on the victor
	streem
In-Reply-To: <6B9ACE8451044ECB95E2298AF8A2A8E5@BeckySabo>
References: <6B9ACE8451044ECB95E2298AF8A2A8E5@BeckySabo>
Message-ID: <F2C063EE3CAA43D7BD1EB620C86DBA9E@AnitaAdkinsPC>

I could help, but I don't know exactly what you are doing or not doing.  Did 
you actually try to copy and paste a file into a folder on your Victor yet. 
If not, first connect the Victor Reader to your computer via its USB cable. 
Or, put the USB card into your computer in its appropriate slot.  If it 
automatically comes up and wants to know what you want to do, choose view 
files on this device or whatever it says.  Or, to make it simple, hit alt 
f4, then go into your computer or my computer folder and choose the 
appropriate drive for which your victor reader or USB card is located.  Once 
you open this drive by pressing enter on it, down arrow to dtb which may 
have a ~ symbol or something before it.  Press enter to open this folder. 
Now, press your applications key and down arrow until you hear new, which 
will be a submenu.  Press enter or press right arrow here.  Then, if it says 
folder, press enter.  If not, down arrow until you hear it say folder and 
press enter.  Name this folder something like English and press enter.  Now, 
press windows+ m to go to your desktop.  When I say +, I mean hold down the 
first key, tap and release the second key, and then release the first key. 
After pressing control+m, you will then need to go to your RFB&D media file 
folder.  This could be in your documents or my documents folder.  Once you 
arrive here, choose the book by down arrowing until it is highlighted.  Then 
press enter on it.  Now, I think you can press control+a to select all. 
Then, press control+c to copy.  Now, press alt+tab until you are back into 
your Victor Reader English folder you just created.  If necessary, tab to 
the spot where the files would be displayed, which, in this case, will say 0 
items since you have not yet placed anything here.  Then, press control+v to 
paste, and the book should now be in this folder.  Note, It may be necessary 
to create a folder inside of English if the English book is more than one 
cd, for instance.  Use the steps above for creating this first folder called 
English, except this time name it cd 1.  Now, open this cd 1 folder.  Then, 
go back to the documents or my documents folder located on your computer or 
go on your computer to where the RFB&D folder is located, down arrow to the 
book you want, press enter, press space bar to select cd1, press enter, and 
then copy and paste as mentioned above.  When you alt+tab to get back to 
your cd 1 folder on your victor, you will paste as above.  Hope I am not 
confusing you more.  Anita

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:04 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] still need he putting rfb and d books on the victor streem


> Hello all,
>
> I have a rfb and d key on my victor stream but I can not get my books for
> school on the player.  I downloaded my books but some reason they are not
> getting onto the stream.  I do not know what I am doing wrong.  If someone
> could help me I would appreciate that a lot.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Becky sabo
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 28 23:02:33 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 19:02:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
In-Reply-To: <28DABA66B9EC447C8FAA39C4E86A216D@AnitaAdkinsPC>
References: <02743D9D4B5245E3B6D5A338C83F32E6@BeckySabo>
	<40F778502C2942D0922A8799F1675143@melissa>
	<AANLkTin3cL5vcS7NW3G9NkGU5y40-9Eduihc=kLUPAj+@mail.gmail.com>
	<0EE6F60B26224A7587908DDADE0ACB4E@AnitaAdkinsPC>
	<AANLkTik8dTVLXpLENtN41jTTd4vFR+apEJcECeQ_yjnk@mail.gmail.com>
	<28DABA66B9EC447C8FAA39C4E86A216D@AnitaAdkinsPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinkiA4b-hrDpOgeE314w1B0pCDjFwYcg1L5wQHf@mail.gmail.com>

haha.  Cool stuff to know

On 8/28/10, Anita Adkins <aadkins7 at verizon.net> wrote:
> Cool.  Remember that 4 and 6 move you back and forward through the list of
> files in the folder, number zero tells you information about your file, free
> space, battery level, etc, number 5 tells you the name of the file you are
> on, and if it is a music track, it will tell you the title of the song and
> artist, I think.  Number eight switches between file and folder.  For
> example, in your music folder, which you would get to by pressing 1 until
> you hear the word music, you might have three different folders.  If you
> have it on file, when you press 4 and 6 to move back and forward, you will
> go from song to song.  However, if you have it on folder, you will skip the
> rest of the files in that particular folder and move to the first file in
> the previous or next folder.  Again, the number eight is the key to switch
> from file to folder.   Sorry if this is confusing.  And, you may not care if
> you are only reading textbooks on there.  hahaha!!!  Enjoy.  Anita
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the stream
>
>
>>I just tried it and it worked.  I appreciate your help!
>>
>> On 8/28/10, Anita Adkins <aadkins7 at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> Did you press the number 1 key repeatedly to go from the Notes Folder
>>> around
>>> to the appropriate folder on Your Victor.  It could be called Talking
>>> books
>>> or DBT or something like that.  Anita
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 5:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the
>>> stream
>>>
>>>
>>>> hey all!
>>>>
>>>> Okay, I followed all of the steps listed and I still am having
>>>> trouble.  My problem is I've downloaded many RFB&d books onto the
>>>> stream.  When I turn it off and power back on all it says is "Notes".
>>>> I've ever used a stream before now.  I had the wave before.  so it a
>>>> bit different for me.
>>>> thanks
>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>> On 8/27/10, Melissa Green <graduate56 at juno.com> wrote:
>>>>> First, did you download the key from the RFB&D website?
>>>>> If you haven't done that.  Then the books won't play on your stream.
>>>>> In order to get a key for your stream.  You must, log on to your online
>>>>> account and follow the instructions
>>>>> on the Authorize a DAISY Player link on the My Account page.
>>>>> Hth.
>>>>> Blessings!
>>>>> Melissa Green
>>>>> A journey is best measured in friends rather than miles.
>>>>> Blog: http://readergirl5674.blogspot.com
>>>>> liss.wordpress.com
>>>>> topaz1531.wordpress.com
>>>>> live journal: topaz5674
>>>>> Facebook: melissa green northern colorado
>>>>> twitter: melissa5674
>>>>> messenger: graduate1531
>>>>> Skype: lissa5674
>>>>> Linked in
>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
>>>>> Friend feed Melissa green
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "becky sabo " <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:24 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] need help putting books from rfb and d onto the
>>>>> stream
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am starting the semester off in a bad way.  I have downloaded my
>>>>>> books
>>>>>> from rfb and d but I do not know how to put them onto my victor
>>>>>> stream.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> anyone knows how to do this could they give me suggestions.  I need
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> done as soon as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Becky sabo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>> 1 Tip for Losing Weight
>>>>> Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
>>>>> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c785b2bc55938afabbst05duc
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 00:24:04 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:24:04 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] jaws question
In-Reply-To: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>
References: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>
Message-ID: <8B4E67AE-748C-40FA-99EE-8B760BFC0434@gmail.com>

I haven't used JAWS regularly for years now, so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong. There is a version of JAWS designed to be installed in a flash drive, but at least by the time I used it 3 years ago, there had to be a JAWS authorization installed on the computer for it to work for more than 40 minutes, or a network authorization had to be found. What I mean is that I'm not sure if you can install the authorization in the drive. My university, for example, has a network license for JAWS installed on campus, which means that up to five people can use JAWS at the same time on public workstations on campus, This is not a problem because there are only 2 or 3 blind students. When I had to use the flash drive version of JAWS three years ago, I plugged it into the computer and it detected the network license. Without that license, it would have worked in demo mode. This is all I know...

Ignasi
On Aug 28, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Maryann Migliorelli wrote:

> Greetings all,
> 
> Does anyone know how to make a bootable drive with Jaws?  I just bought a
> new u3 smart drive and need to get Jaws on it for college.  I do have
> authorizations left.  I just need to know how to put one on the drive.
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> If it's easier, you can respond off list at mrsmigs at migliorelli.org
> 
> 
> 
> Have a great weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> Study hard and play hard,
> 
> 
> 
> Maryann Migliorelli 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From serenacucco at verizon.net  Sun Aug 29 00:47:52 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:47:52 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com><946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com><AANLkTikQ_K2kaX-tbKk9wgksLtJxP8eOf2b+HVNkdFfQ@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTi=jpAW8MwpHKbxkJ-uZXdLz-bfou0YndCPMGL6j@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinA716on8-yAkUNVEaxF5r2iGrbweqSjeU_r7LD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <829B2710E0F842919DC9A351BC767DD7@Serene>

Use your cane from the car into the restaurant.  You might want to use 
sighted guide to your seat, only cuz restaurants are so crowded!

Serena


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] some more questions...


> Hi All!
>
> Wow, awesome responses!
>
> Thanks a ton...this helps clear up the issue so much for me!
>
> Just one more question though. In her message, Arielle said she often
> bases whether she follows someone or takes their arm by whether she
> will likely be going to the same place or traveling the same route
> again.
>
> What about if you are just going to a restaurant?
>
> Often, I go out to eat with my family. They park, we get out of the
> car, then it's just a matter of walking to where the door is, and then
> going to the seat in the restaurant. Usually, I just let Mom guide
> me...but in a situation like this, should I be using my cane? It's not
> necessarily a place I'll be going to again or a lot, but it's another
> situation where I could be using my cane and getting more practice.
> However, again I don't want to cause trouble or be extreme. So, what
> do you usually do in situations where you just have to go from a
> vehicle, to the door, then to a seat?
>
> Kerri
>
> On 8/14/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I had a similar problem with getting lost and having someone guide me
>> to find my way...the next time, I got just as lost! This is what I
>> started doing.
>>
>> Me: Man, I'm lost...I don't recognize anything around me.
>> Good Person: Can I help you find something?
>> Me: Yea, I'm looking for <address>. Can you tell me what address I'm at?
>> GP: You're at <number>. You need to go down the street to your left
>> and you'll find the place you're looking for.
>> Me: Thank you. Are there any plants, stairs, or other features that
>> will tell me that I'm there?
>> GP: Yea, they have two big crepe myrtles out front and the building
>> has six steps to the front door.
>> Me: Thank you!
>>
>> Then I walk there, and when I find two crepe myrtles and a building
>> with six steps, I am 99 percent likely to have the right building.
>>
>> Another method I've used is "Are you going that way? I would be
>> grateful if you'd let me walk with you." Then I walk beside them and
>> talk while I walk (I talk too much), and watch out for landmarks. I
>> have to pay attention to where I'm going because I'm following, but at
>> the same time, I don't have to try to remember directions (I have a
>> bad memory).
>>
>> For following, I have a bit of a cheat in my favour. I can ee some
>> colours, so if the person is wearing a bright coloured shirt, such a
>> construction worker's orange vest or a pretty pink shirt, I just keep
>> the pink or orange blob in my sight and follow that. If you don't have
>> colour vision, use scent and/or sound. For example, at the bank today
>> there was a lady with high heels that made it very easy to follow her,
>> and I have a friend who wears very distinct cologne...as long as I can
>> smell his cologne, I know he's not far away. If I'm not sure where
>> someone is, I'll ask. For example, while my boyfriend and I are out, I
>> might say "Hey, Mike." and he'll say "Yea?" or "Here." and I'll know
>> exactly where he is based on his voice. This works better with people
>> you know well, because they'll know that you're just asking for some
>> audio feedback.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>> Jewel
>>
>> On 8/14/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Kerri,
>>>
>>> It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing because you'll hear a
>>> noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground while you are
>>> walking, and then your cane will stick on everything and won't give
>>> you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of extra tips, you can
>>> change them as soon as you start to notice scratches on your tip, but
>>> if you want to be more economical, you can wait until the ring falls
>>> off.
>>>
>>> Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting help from a stranger,
>>> I'll almost always follow behind them instead of taking their arm, not
>>> only so I can know where we're going, but also because I don't know
>>> the person and don't want to be led somewhere I don't want to go
>>> without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone I know and trust,
>>> then a key factor in the decision is "is this a route I'll likely be
>>> taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow behind them using my
>>> cane so I can really be aware of where we're going and be able to
>>> remember the route for later trips. Most people will understand and
>>> not be offended if you say "I'd like to just follow you so I can
>>> remember how to get here next time". If it's not someplace I'm likely
>>> to go back to again, then the decision really depends on my mood, how
>>> crowded the place is, whether I want to be carrying something in my
>>> non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide inconvenient), etc. If it's a
>>> good friend they should be understanding that you might move a little
>>> slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm but that the
>>> practice and confidence is good for you.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,
>>>> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally remember the directions 
>>>> as
>>>> you are walking. Basically don't just let them guide but try to follow
>>>> along
>>>> the directions as you are walking. You have the right idea of traveling
>>>> independently "practice practice practice". After all practice makes
>>>> perfect.
>>>> Anmol
>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. 
>>>> Perhaps
>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>> breeze
>>>> among flowers.
>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
>>>>> Hi All!!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have some more questions!
>>>>>
>>>>> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has
>>>>> a Seko
>>>>> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in
>>>>> the NFB
>>>>> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped
>>>>> making this
>>>>> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the
>>>>> independence
>>>>> market there were like three different ones ranging in
>>>>> price from $45
>>>>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in
>>>>> the Quartz
>>>>> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between
>>>>> different
>>>>> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that
>>>>> is still
>>>>> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at
>>>>> convention and
>>>>> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in
>>>>> that area.
>>>>>
>>>>> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been
>>>>> told when
>>>>> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a
>>>>> free white
>>>>> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already
>>>>> on it. I
>>>>> bought five tips during convention and have been told how
>>>>> to put them
>>>>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my
>>>>> tip is
>>>>> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting
>>>>> to
>>>>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels
>>>>> more rough
>>>>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing
>>>>> down? If
>>>>> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing
>>>>> it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also I want to make sure I know how to change
>>>>> properly...you basically
>>>>> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the
>>>>> new tip on
>>>>> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is
>>>>> that right?
>>>>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else
>>>>> I should
>>>>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto
>>>>> the cane
>>>>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the
>>>>> new tip on,
>>>>> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want
>>>>> to make
>>>>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on
>>>>> lol!
>>>>>
>>>>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting
>>>>> lost, and
>>>>> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try
>>>>> going to the
>>>>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the
>>>>> open
>>>>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and
>>>>> go straight.
>>>>> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting
>>>>> either a
>>>>> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped
>>>>> me to the
>>>>> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong
>>>>> side), and I
>>>>> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to
>>>>> try it again
>>>>> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there
>>>>> anything more I
>>>>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane
>>>>> and walked
>>>>> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was.
>>>>> I've read
>>>>> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person
>>>>> from veering
>>>>> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your
>>>>> arc by
>>>>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to
>>>>> side making
>>>>> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read
>>>>> that it
>>>>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my
>>>>> doorjamb and
>>>>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I
>>>>> put my cane
>>>>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried
>>>>> tapping in front
>>>>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my
>>>>> arc became
>>>>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of
>>>>> strain...like it felt
>>>>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural
>>>>> somehow...Is
>>>>> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I
>>>>> am asking
>>>>> these questions is because the more practice I get with my
>>>>> cane, the
>>>>> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there
>>>>> anything
>>>>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much
>>>>> practice with a
>>>>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I
>>>>> can get,
>>>>> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I
>>>>> use the
>>>>> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and
>>>>> I've been
>>>>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training
>>>>> what's up to me
>>>>> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice,
>>>>> practice. I
>>>>> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to
>>>>> talk to
>>>>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably
>>>>> better but
>>>>> other than those situations should I be using the cane on
>>>>> my own? Ever
>>>>> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my
>>>>> cane on
>>>>> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me
>>>>> gain
>>>>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is
>>>>> it hard from
>>>>> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside
>>>>> them? The
>>>>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want
>>>>> to put the
>>>>> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate
>>>>> them...
>>>>>
>>>>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the
>>>>> dumpster,and I end
>>>>> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help,
>>>>> should I
>>>>> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use
>>>>> my cane or
>>>>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because
>>>>> too many
>>>>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When
>>>>> someone
>>>>> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the
>>>>> next time I
>>>>> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At
>>>>> convention, by
>>>>> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which
>>>>> direction to go
>>>>> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I
>>>>> have a very
>>>>> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on
>>>>> my own.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I
>>>>> think once
>>>>> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so
>>>>> this kind
>>>>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting
>>>>> out...I need
>>>>> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or
>>>>> just
>>>>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I
>>>>> don't want
>>>>> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation.
>>>>> But, if I am
>>>>> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>>>>>
>>>>> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either
>>>>> gotten
>>>>> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very
>>>>> well. It gives
>>>>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane
>>>>> more, and
>>>>> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my
>>>>> apartment
>>>>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the
>>>>> pool. My
>>>>> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool
>>>>> sometimes. They
>>>>> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my
>>>>> own. My
>>>>> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the
>>>>> gate at a
>>>>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers
>>>>> fiancae
>>>>> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on
>>>>> my left
>>>>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they
>>>>> were
>>>>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told
>>>>> him just
>>>>> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the
>>>>> way across
>>>>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had
>>>>> been guided.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know
>>>>> I've rambled a
>>>>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying
>>>>> to ask and
>>>>> why I am asking these questions!
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much!
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Arielle Silverman
>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>> Email:
>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>> Website:
>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 03:09:50 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:09:50 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
In-Reply-To: <829B2710E0F842919DC9A351BC767DD7@Serene>
References: <AANLkTim55v6RvC5WgACtbN9_EiwcfsS0BFf9X_HQUjWy@mail.gmail.com>
	<946873.34187.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<AANLkTikQ_K2kaX-tbKk9wgksLtJxP8eOf2b+HVNkdFfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=jpAW8MwpHKbxkJ-uZXdLz-bfou0YndCPMGL6j@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinA716on8-yAkUNVEaxF5r2iGrbweqSjeU_r7LD@mail.gmail.com>
	<829B2710E0F842919DC9A351BC767DD7@Serene>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikuXFow9egaNS_EJGJqxHZHg7RVGfHbPTPRJoKU@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Serena:

Thanks for your tips!

I've actually been doing really well!

I only use sighted guide if I'm in a hurry, or if the place is too
noisy to hear the person giving me directions.

This works unbelievably well.

First, because I use a wider arc, my veering has gone down
significantly. I still veer a tiny bit, but not nearly as badly!

Second, it's amazing how much information I can get from using my cane
and how even just going in somewhere once using my cane I can pretty
much reverse the directions on my own!

It's awesome now!

I really want to thank everyone. You gave me the courage to really
speak up to sighted people and showed me that it's okay to like/want
to use my cane rather than being guided all the time.

Kerri

On 8/28/10, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
> Use your cane from the car into the restaurant.  You might want to use
> sighted guide to your seat, only cuz restaurants are so crowded!
>
> Serena
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 3:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] some more questions...
>
>
>> Hi All!
>>
>> Wow, awesome responses!
>>
>> Thanks a ton...this helps clear up the issue so much for me!
>>
>> Just one more question though. In her message, Arielle said she often
>> bases whether she follows someone or takes their arm by whether she
>> will likely be going to the same place or traveling the same route
>> again.
>>
>> What about if you are just going to a restaurant?
>>
>> Often, I go out to eat with my family. They park, we get out of the
>> car, then it's just a matter of walking to where the door is, and then
>> going to the seat in the restaurant. Usually, I just let Mom guide
>> me...but in a situation like this, should I be using my cane? It's not
>> necessarily a place I'll be going to again or a lot, but it's another
>> situation where I could be using my cane and getting more practice.
>> However, again I don't want to cause trouble or be extreme. So, what
>> do you usually do in situations where you just have to go from a
>> vehicle, to the door, then to a seat?
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 8/14/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I had a similar problem with getting lost and having someone guide me
>>> to find my way...the next time, I got just as lost! This is what I
>>> started doing.
>>>
>>> Me: Man, I'm lost...I don't recognize anything around me.
>>> Good Person: Can I help you find something?
>>> Me: Yea, I'm looking for <address>. Can you tell me what address I'm at?
>>> GP: You're at <number>. You need to go down the street to your left
>>> and you'll find the place you're looking for.
>>> Me: Thank you. Are there any plants, stairs, or other features that
>>> will tell me that I'm there?
>>> GP: Yea, they have two big crepe myrtles out front and the building
>>> has six steps to the front door.
>>> Me: Thank you!
>>>
>>> Then I walk there, and when I find two crepe myrtles and a building
>>> with six steps, I am 99 percent likely to have the right building.
>>>
>>> Another method I've used is "Are you going that way? I would be
>>> grateful if you'd let me walk with you." Then I walk beside them and
>>> talk while I walk (I talk too much), and watch out for landmarks. I
>>> have to pay attention to where I'm going because I'm following, but at
>>> the same time, I don't have to try to remember directions (I have a
>>> bad memory).
>>>
>>> For following, I have a bit of a cheat in my favour. I can ee some
>>> colours, so if the person is wearing a bright coloured shirt, such a
>>> construction worker's orange vest or a pretty pink shirt, I just keep
>>> the pink or orange blob in my sight and follow that. If you don't have
>>> colour vision, use scent and/or sound. For example, at the bank today
>>> there was a lady with high heels that made it very easy to follow her,
>>> and I have a friend who wears very distinct cologne...as long as I can
>>> smell his cologne, I know he's not far away. If I'm not sure where
>>> someone is, I'll ask. For example, while my boyfriend and I are out, I
>>> might say "Hey, Mike." and he'll say "Yea?" or "Here." and I'll know
>>> exactly where he is based on his voice. This works better with people
>>> you know well, because they'll know that you're just asking for some
>>> audio feedback.
>>>
>>> Hope that helps,
>>> Jewel
>>>
>>> On 8/14/10, Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Kerri,
>>>>
>>>> It'll be obvious when your tip needs changing because you'll hear a
>>>> noise like a piece of metal dropping on the ground while you are
>>>> walking, and then your cane will stick on everything and won't give
>>>> you nearly as much feedback. If you have a lot of extra tips, you can
>>>> change them as soon as you start to notice scratches on your tip, but
>>>> if you want to be more economical, you can wait until the ring falls
>>>> off.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding getting help when lost, if I'm getting help from a stranger,
>>>> I'll almost always follow behind them instead of taking their arm, not
>>>> only so I can know where we're going, but also because I don't know
>>>> the person and don't want to be led somewhere I don't want to go
>>>> without realizing it. If I'm walking with someone I know and trust,
>>>> then a key factor in the decision is "is this a route I'll likely be
>>>> taking again?" If so, then I'll want to follow behind them using my
>>>> cane so I can really be aware of where we're going and be able to
>>>> remember the route for later trips. Most people will understand and
>>>> not be offended if you say "I'd like to just follow you so I can
>>>> remember how to get here next time". If it's not someplace I'm likely
>>>> to go back to again, then the decision really depends on my mood, how
>>>> crowded the place is, whether I want to be carrying something in my
>>>> non-cane hand (which makes sighted guide inconvenient), etc. If it's a
>>>> good friend they should be understanding that you might move a little
>>>> slower or more awkwardly without holding their arm but that the
>>>> practice and confidence is good for you.
>>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>> On 8/14/10, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Kerri,
>>>>> When you do let someone guide, try to mentally remember the directions
>>>>> as
>>>>> you are walking. Basically don't just let them guide but try to follow
>>>>> along
>>>>> the directions as you are walking. You have the right idea of traveling
>>>>> independently "practice practice practice". After all practice makes
>>>>> perfect.
>>>>> Anmol
>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad.
>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>> there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a
>>>>> breeze
>>>>> among flowers.
>>>>> Hellen Keller
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Sat, 8/14/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] some more questions...
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 6:28 PM
>>>>>> Hi All!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some more questions!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, I have decided to get a braille watch. My friend has
>>>>>> a Seko
>>>>>> watch which she says is very good, but I can't find it in
>>>>>> the NFB
>>>>>> Independence market. She told me that they have stopped
>>>>>> making this
>>>>>> kind of watch. When I looked at the watches online in the
>>>>>> independence
>>>>>> market there were like three different ones ranging in
>>>>>> price from $45
>>>>>> to like $60-something. I am pretty sure they were all in
>>>>>> the Quartz
>>>>>> brand...so I was wondering what the differences between
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> braille watches are and which one you recomend I get that
>>>>>> is still
>>>>>> being made today lol! I looked at my friends watch at
>>>>>> convention and
>>>>>> she told me how to read time on it so I should do fine in
>>>>>> that area.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do you know when your cane tip needs changed? I've been
>>>>>> told when
>>>>>> the ring falls off. What does this mean? What ring? I got a
>>>>>> free white
>>>>>> cane from the NFB in January so it came with a tip already
>>>>>> on it. I
>>>>>> bought five tips during convention and have been told how
>>>>>> to put them
>>>>>> on. The reason I am asking about this is I am noticing my
>>>>>> tip is
>>>>>> scratched. It is still on but it's scratched. It's starting
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> stick...it doesn't feel as smooth when I tap...it feels
>>>>>> more rough
>>>>>> somehow...if that makes sense! Does this mean it's wearing
>>>>>> down? If
>>>>>> so, how much should you let it wear down before changing
>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also I want to make sure I know how to change
>>>>>> properly...you basically
>>>>>> twist the tip off where the rubber is...and then to put the
>>>>>> new tip on
>>>>>> you just stick the hole of the new tip onto the cane...is
>>>>>> that right?
>>>>>> Is it pretty easy/straightforward or is there anything else
>>>>>> I should
>>>>>> know? Is it hard to get the new tip on or does it fit onto
>>>>>> the cane
>>>>>> easily? Is the old tip hard to twist off? When putting the
>>>>>> new tip on,
>>>>>> do you have to twist it or anything like that? I just want
>>>>>> to make
>>>>>> sure so I'm not left with a cane I can't put a new tip on
>>>>>> lol!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A few weeks ago, I posted about navigating outside, getting
>>>>>> lost, and
>>>>>> going through parking lots. Last week, I decided to try
>>>>>> going to the
>>>>>> dumpster. It went okay, but not the best. When I got to the
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> driveway you have to cross, I tried to center my cane and
>>>>>> go straight.
>>>>>> I must've really veered horribly because I ended up hitting
>>>>>> either a
>>>>>> gate or fence that I had never seen before. Someone helped
>>>>>> me to the
>>>>>> trash (I was going the right way but was on the wrong
>>>>>> side), and I
>>>>>> just had them guide me back to my building but I want to
>>>>>> try it again
>>>>>> and to improve so had some questions. First, is there
>>>>>> anything more I
>>>>>> could do to correct my veering? I tried to center my cane
>>>>>> and walked
>>>>>> faster though I know I could've walked faster than I was.
>>>>>> I've read
>>>>>> that an arc that is even from side to side keeps a person
>>>>>> from veering
>>>>>> to one side or the other. I read how you can measure your
>>>>>> arc by
>>>>>> standing at a doorjamb and tapping the cane from side to
>>>>>> side making
>>>>>> sure the cane hits each side of the doorjamb. I also read
>>>>>> that it
>>>>>> needs to be about shoulder to shoulder. So, I stood at my
>>>>>> doorjamb and
>>>>>> tried tapping my cane from one side to the other. Then, I
>>>>>> put my cane
>>>>>> in front of my right shoulder, tapped it, then tried
>>>>>> tapping in front
>>>>>> of my other shoulder. I noticed that in both instances my
>>>>>> arc became
>>>>>> much much wider. I also noticed I had to kind of
>>>>>> strain...like it felt
>>>>>> as if it was too wide. Basically, it didn't feel natural
>>>>>> somehow...Is
>>>>>> this feeling normal when first starting out? The reason I
>>>>>> am asking
>>>>>> these questions is because the more practice I get with my
>>>>>> cane, the
>>>>>> better, faster, and more efficient I will become. Is there
>>>>>> anything
>>>>>> else I can try to maybe keep from veering so much?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since I am not yet in training, and haven't had much
>>>>>> practice with a
>>>>>> cane and am very slow and clearly need all the practice I
>>>>>> can get,
>>>>>> when going out when should I take an arm and when should I
>>>>>> use the
>>>>>> cane? I know this question always brings up much debate and
>>>>>> I've been
>>>>>> told it's up to me, but when you haven't had training
>>>>>> what's up to me
>>>>>> isn't always the best because I need practice, practice,
>>>>>> practice. I
>>>>>> know that if I am in a very very noisy place or I want to
>>>>>> talk to
>>>>>> someone/carry on a conversation taking an arm is probably
>>>>>> better but
>>>>>> other than those situations should I be using the cane on
>>>>>> my own? Ever
>>>>>> since convention, when taking someones arm, I always use my
>>>>>> cane on
>>>>>> the other side which is nice but that isn't helping me
>>>>>> gain
>>>>>> confidence, gain trust, and walk faster with the cane. Is
>>>>>> it hard from
>>>>>> the sighted persons perspective to follow or walk beside
>>>>>> them? The
>>>>>> main reason I end up taking an arm so much is I don't want
>>>>>> to put the
>>>>>> sighted person in an uncomfortable situation or irritate
>>>>>> them...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also,when I am trying to go somewhere, such as the
>>>>>> dumpster,and I end
>>>>>> up getting lost, when a sighted person asks if I need help,
>>>>>> should I
>>>>>> either follow/walk beside them, or get directions and use
>>>>>> my cane or
>>>>>> let them guide me? The reason I am asking this is because
>>>>>> too many
>>>>>> times I have gotten lost when trying to go somewhere. When
>>>>>> someone
>>>>>> assists me, I end up letting them guide me, and then the
>>>>>> next time I
>>>>>> have no idea where to go because I was just guided. At
>>>>>> convention, by
>>>>>> the end of the week, I still had no idea of even which
>>>>>> direction to go
>>>>>> because I was pretty much just guided all the time and I
>>>>>> have a very
>>>>>> hard time of knowing where to go if I don't use my cane on
>>>>>> my own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am very sorry to bring this up, or if I offend anyone. I
>>>>>> think once
>>>>>> you've had training, you just know you can do whatever, so
>>>>>> this kind
>>>>>> of thing doesn't matter but for someone just starting
>>>>>> out...I need
>>>>>> practice, practice, practice. And what is always easiest or
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> leaving it up to me isn't always the best for me because I
>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>> to put the sighted person in an uncomfortable situation.
>>>>>> But, if I am
>>>>>> guided all the time I don't get that practice I need!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The few times I have used my cane on my own and either
>>>>>> gotten
>>>>>> directions, or followed someone, I have done very very
>>>>>> well. It gives
>>>>>> me a little sense of pride, motivates me to use my cane
>>>>>> more, and
>>>>>> makes it so I actually like using my cane! For example, my
>>>>>> apartment
>>>>>> complex has a pool. You have to walk a little to get to the
>>>>>> pool. My
>>>>>> parents live nearby, and like to come to the pool
>>>>>> sometimes. They
>>>>>> called me, and I walked to the pool using my cane all on my
>>>>>> own. My
>>>>>> parents were sitting all the way across the pool from the
>>>>>> gate at a
>>>>>> picnic table. Instead of getting up to guide me, my mothers
>>>>>> fiancae
>>>>>> just gave me directions. He told me to keep these poles on
>>>>>> my left
>>>>>> side, and soon enough I came to the picnic table where they
>>>>>> were
>>>>>> sitting. Because of how I used my cane, I successfully told
>>>>>> him just
>>>>>> like that how to reverse and get back to the gate all the
>>>>>> way across
>>>>>> the pool! I wouldn't have been able to do that if I had
>>>>>> been guided.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know this is a very long, detailed message and I know
>>>>>> I've rambled a
>>>>>> bit...but I wanted to give an example of what I am trying
>>>>>> to ask and
>>>>>> why I am asking these questions!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks so much!
>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From serenacucco at verizon.net  Sun Aug 29 17:26:04 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:26:04 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?
References: <0C2654E4-856E-42CF-B024-96DBA29DDC74@mac.com>
Message-ID: <B6EC3DE7490D44AFB94C35DEB2C5E34D@Serene>

Who actually baught the BrailleNote for you?  Who told you it's not for 
personal stuff?  If your Commission for the Blind baught it for you, they 
may say it's only for school, but nobody really checks what you're using it 
for.  Definitely get one for yourseelf!  Get your Commission to pay for it 
... Since you have a laptop, you probably will have to fight hard to get it 
cuz they'll want to just say you're good to go with the laptop.

Serena


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:01 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] should I get a notetaker?


> Hello list:
> Just had a quick queestion.
> So, I'm now a freshmen at MANHATTAN HUNTER SCIENCE HIGHSCHOOL, and I'm 
> using a Braille Note the board has given me for school purposes only.
> However, I have found the Note's flexibility for quick notes very useful, 
> as in when I need to take phone numbers, etc.
> Currently I have a laptop which is doing great for what I need, but 
> doesn't have that easy note-taking flexibility of the Note, where I can 
> just flip the cover up and write something.
>
> Do you guys suggest I get one for personal use?
>
>
>
> I could use the one I'm given, but do not, if I can help it, or if I have 
> to usually end up transfering stuff to the PC since its technically not 
> meant for personal stuff.
>
> What are your thoughts?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Jorge
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net 



From serenacucco at verizon.net  Sun Aug 29 18:01:00 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 14:01:00 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi
References: <AANLkTim4t4EH==cO1YkvHUqbq5yp3qCcNYit_BXy7s0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E2FE401974494505805A2F34B080648B@Serene>


Hey Bill!

I haven't taken it, but was just wondering, what makes you interested in 
that particular language?

Serena

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill" <cassonw at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 4:19 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi


> Hi,
> I will be taking a class in the hindi Language in the fall. I was 
> wondering
> if anyone else has taken the class or a similar one. If so, what 
> challenges
> did the class present and what did you do to overcome those challenges. 
> The
> one that comes to mind for me is the reading and writing. What did you do
> for reading and writing assignments. Were you able to do them in braille? 
> If
> so, how did you produce the braille and turn in assignments? Your help 
> would
> be appreciated.
> Thanks,
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Aug 29 18:36:34 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:36:34 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] jaws question
In-Reply-To: <8B4E67AE-748C-40FA-99EE-8B760BFC0434@gmail.com>
References: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>
	<8B4E67AE-748C-40FA-99EE-8B760BFC0434@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A9D718CB-3472-4FD9-8E5F-35922A793788@mac.com>

Yes.
I think you're right about that.


On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:

> I haven't used JAWS regularly for years now, so anyone please correct me if I'm wrong. There is a version of JAWS designed to be installed in a flash drive, but at least by the time I used it 3 years ago, there had to be a JAWS authorization installed on the computer for it to work for more than 40 minutes, or a network authorization had to be found. What I mean is that I'm not sure if you can install the authorization in the drive. My university, for example, has a network license for JAWS installed on campus, which means that up to five people can use JAWS at the same time on public workstations on campus, This is not a problem because there are only 2 or 3 blind students. When I had to use the flash drive version of JAWS three years ago, I plugged it into the computer and it detected the network license. Without that license, it would have worked in demo mode. This is all I know...
> 
> Ignasi
> On Aug 28, 2010, at 4:39 PM, Maryann Migliorelli wrote:
> 
>> Greetings all,
>> 
>> Does anyone know how to make a bootable drive with Jaws?  I just bought a
>> new u3 smart drive and need to get Jaws on it for college.  I do have
>> authorizations left.  I just need to know how to put one on the drive.
>> 
>> Thanks for any help.
>> 
>> If it's easier, you can respond off list at mrsmigs at migliorelli.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Have a great weekend.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Study hard and play hard,
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Maryann Migliorelli 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com

Thanks.



Jorge Paez


---
President And CEO:
Paez Production Networks





Please note:
this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media.



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Aug 29 18:37:08 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:37:08 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] still need he putting rfb and d books on the victor
	streem
In-Reply-To: <6B9ACE8451044ECB95E2298AF8A2A8E5@BeckySabo>
References: <6B9ACE8451044ECB95E2298AF8A2A8E5@BeckySabo>
Message-ID: <8E86D13B-B50B-467A-9456-FCDFEEE051B8@mac.com>

Do you use the companion software?


Thank you.


Jorge

http://www.jorgepaez.com

http://www.twitter.com/jorgepaez

On Aug 28, 2010, at 3:04 PM, becky sabo wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> I have a rfb and d key on my victor stream but I can not get my books for
> school on the player.  I downloaded my books but some reason they are not
> getting onto the stream.  I do not know what I am doing wrong.  If someone
> could help me I would appreciate that a lot.
> 
> Sincerely 
> 
> Becky sabo 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com

Thanks.



Jorge Paez


---
President And CEO:
Paez Production Networks





Please note:
this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media.



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 29 18:58:40 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 14:58:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi
In-Reply-To: <E2FE401974494505805A2F34B080648B@Serene>
References: <AANLkTim4t4EH==cO1YkvHUqbq5yp3qCcNYit_BXy7s0w@mail.gmail.com>
	<E2FE401974494505805A2F34B080648B@Serene>
Message-ID: <AANLkTind0GDB_9LcS3ma600O_qbix4KJDsesM2Qy2h8L@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Bill,

I suggest doing a search for Bahrati Braille. This is the form of
Braille used by Hindi-speaking people in India. It allows for all of
the different letters and such. I have learned a little Hindi (not
much, just basic), and am studying it on my own along with Bahrati
Braille. I hope to someday work in India with a school for the blind
there, so that's why I'm studying it.

I definitely suggest learning the Bahrati Braille symbolds. Also,
there is a book called "It's Not On the Keyboard: Typing Special
Characters in Word." I believe it is from APH. It is an excellent
resource for people looking to type in another language.

You are probably not going to learn the shapes of the Hindi letters,
though you could ask for tactile images of the basic alphabet so you
know what it looks like. Bahrati Braille is, though, your best bet for
writing in Hindi. Find someone who can transcribe this language's
Braille to be your transcriber/scribe. The Department of Services for
the Blind should be willing to pay for this service as a reasonable
accommodation. Or you could get a Braille keyboard and one of the
programs that translates Braille to text and back (like Duxbury) and
type in Braille and let it print it out in printed Hindi.

I can't stress the importance of learning Bahrati Braille enough. In
learning it, you wil have as much chance of learning Hindi as any
other student in the class because the symbols are equivalent to the
print symbols. Just don't expect your Hindi teacher to be able to help
you with that part...you might ask around and see if there is anyone
who knos Bahrati Braille very well who can tutor you in it...I can't
think of anyone personally.

My two cents,
Jewel

On 8/29/10, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Hey Bill!
>
> I haven't taken it, but was just wondering, what makes you interested in
> that particular language?
>
> Serena
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill" <cassonw at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 4:19 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Hindi
>
>
>> Hi,
>> I will be taking a class in the hindi Language in the fall. I was
>> wondering
>> if anyone else has taken the class or a similar one. If so, what
>> challenges
>> did the class present and what did you do to overcome those challenges.
>> The
>> one that comes to mind for me is the reading and writing. What did you do
>> for reading and writing assignments. Were you able to do them in braille?
>> If
>> so, how did you produce the braille and turn in assignments? Your help
>> would
>> be appreciated.
>> Thanks,
>> Bill
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From aec732 at msn.com  Sun Aug 29 19:15:31 2010
From: aec732 at msn.com (Annemarie Cooke)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:15:31 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1283101204.26855.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.13.1283101204.26855.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <COL106-W1337F3EFF0B45F139E7E1C94880@phx.gbl>


Becky, at what point are you having difficulty? Are you uploading from your RFB&D Media File?
There are tutorials on the RFB&D site; you also cancall 1-800-221-4792 selection 3 and gettech assistance live on the phone.
It would be useful t know where you are having idifficulty in order to trouble-shoot for you.
Annemarie Cooke 		 	   		  

From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 29 21:37:57 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:37:57 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>

I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people.  I have noticed a lot of people have the same sort of perseptions that Blind people can not properly take care of a new born child on their own including the past case we helped fight.  I've talked to some sighted people on this case and they said
"Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a child's head and will hurt or break the baby's bones".  
This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels me how many people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear others comments.
Rob Blachowicz

From gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org  Sun Aug 29 21:43:28 2010
From: gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org (Greg)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:43:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <68B3AB45DAF64544BDE80DA33C3098A9@GregsToshiba>

Hello,
I am the parent of a seven year old.  I had no problems with my son when he 
was younger.  My wife and I are divorced now, but I fed him with no 
problems.  I also have changed his diapers, fixed him food, and myriads of 
other things.  People who say that we cant do it have no clue what they are 
talking about.  It might take us a little longer to do something, but that 
does not mean we cant do it right.
Greg Wocher
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:37 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents


>I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people.  I have 
>noticed a lot of people have the same sort of perseptions that Blind people 
>can not properly take care of a new born child on their own including the 
>past case we helped fight.  I've talked to some sighted people on this case 
>and they said
> "Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a child's head 
> and will hurt or break the baby's bones".
> This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels me how many 
> people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear others comments.
> Rob Blachowicz
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gwblindman1%40gwblindman.org 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 29 22:06:41 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:06:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
In-Reply-To: <68B3AB45DAF64544BDE80DA33C3098A9@GregsToshiba>
References: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
	<68B3AB45DAF64544BDE80DA33C3098A9@GregsToshiba>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS215A9FFC49F645FE9898B8B880@phx.gbl>


I tjut thought we needed to talk about this after those events with those 
parents because this is a ongoing problem that we all face of people always 
looking at us very closely and not allowing usto make the mistakes that they 
can.
Rob
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Greg" <gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:43 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents

> Hello,
> I am the parent of a seven year old.  I had no problems with my son when 
> he was younger.  My wife and I are divorced now, but I fed him with no 
> problems.  I also have changed his diapers, fixed him food, and myriads of 
> other things.  People who say that we cant do it have no clue what they 
> are talking about.  It might take us a little longer to do something, but 
> that does not mean we cant do it right.
> Greg Wocher
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:37 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>
>
>>I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people.  I have 
>>noticed a lot of people have the same sort of perseptions that Blind 
>>people can not properly take care of a new born child on their own 
>>including the past case we helped fight.  I've talked to some sighted 
>>people on this case and they said
>> "Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a child's head 
>> and will hurt or break the baby's bones".
>> This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels me how many 
>> people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear others comments.
>> Rob Blachowicz
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gwblindman1%40gwblindman.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 00:46:45 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:46:45 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8AC337E4B732423086EB5E087BCE81BF@Rufus>

I think you're preaching to the choir.  No one would ever claim blind people
cannot properly care for children.  In my opinion, where certain techniques
fall short, nature firmly takes over.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Blachowicz
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:38 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents

I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people. 
 I have noticed a lot of people have the same sort of 
perseptions that Blind people can not properly take care of a 
new born child on their own including the past case we helped 
fight.  I've talked to some sighted people on this case and they said
"Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a 
child's head and will hurt or break the baby's bones".  
This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels 
me how many people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear 
others comments.
Rob Blachowicz
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 01:03:20 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 21:03:20 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
In-Reply-To: <8AC337E4B732423086EB5E087BCE81BF@Rufus>
References: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
	<8AC337E4B732423086EB5E087BCE81BF@Rufus>
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS1626B823EF11526E26058E8B890@phx.gbl>


My point in bringing this up is to ask how do we educate and be ambassadors 
for the blind on this issue.


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 8:46 PM
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents

> I think you're preaching to the choir.  No one would ever claim blind 
> people
> cannot properly care for children.  In my opinion, where certain 
> techniques
> fall short, nature firmly takes over.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Blachowicz
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:38 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>
> I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people.
> I have noticed a lot of people have the same sort of
> perseptions that Blind people can not properly take care of a
> new born child on their own including the past case we helped
> fight.  I've talked to some sighted people on this case and they said
> "Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a
> child's head and will hurt or break the baby's bones".
> This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels
> me how many people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear
> others comments.
> Rob Blachowicz
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
> 


From aec732 at msn.com  Mon Aug 30 01:41:06 2010
From: aec732 at msn.com (Annemarie Cooke)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 21:41:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] to Mark re: textbooks
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1283014803.24052.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.15.1283014803.24052.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <COL106-W60D9EABD08C478919ECA7594890@phx.gbl>


Hi Mark, RFB&D often will record books on request if readers are available in that subject area. If semester is tarting this week or next, you are going to be behind if you pursue this route.
Have you contacted your school's DSS office? Publishers will provide the e-files through this channel as long as you have a recweipt for purchase of a print copy. Publishers will provide files to your DSS office but not necessarily to you directly because they want to ensure protection of their copyright.
Which books do you need, please?
Thanks,
Annemarie Cooke 		 	   		  

From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 02:04:03 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:04:03 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS1626B823EF11526E26058E8B890@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
	<8AC337E4B732423086EB5E087BCE81BF@Rufus>
	<BAY130-DS1626B823EF11526E26058E8B890@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin_cgrR_=k9o4iigoBe_Ng+zf44wqR3J4ydY9wk@mail.gmail.com>

I always thought i could be a parent, and some people have said I
should marry a sighted man just so I wouldn't have these problems.
But my current significant other is blind, and if we married and had
kids, I don't see why we would have problems in the first place.
First-time mothers should know that ALL first-time mothers go through
nursing things.  My aunt had nine kids, or she has a ninth child on
the way, and she had her eighth child premature.  He had a few nursing
difficulties, but it wasn't my aunt's fault.  She is sighted, luckily,
but if it were I having had nine kids, ... well, I wouldn't have that
many kids because it's just too many to put on a bus or lite rail.  My
friend Blake said I should control the number and spacing of kids, but
that's a whole different subject right there.  There is a blind
parents division listserv for those interested btw.
Beth

On 8/29/10, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> My point in bringing this up is to ask how do we educate and be ambassadors
> for the blind on this issue.
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 8:46 PM
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>
>> I think you're preaching to the choir.  No one would ever claim blind
>> people
>> cannot properly care for children.  In my opinion, where certain
>> techniques
>> fall short, nature firmly takes over.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Blachowicz
>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:38 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>>
>> I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people.
>> I have noticed a lot of people have the same sort of
>> perseptions that Blind people can not properly take care of a
>> new born child on their own including the past case we helped
>> fight.  I've talked to some sighted people on this case and they said
>> "Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a
>> child's head and will hurt or break the baby's bones".
>> This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels
>> me how many people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear
>> others comments.
>> Rob Blachowicz
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 02:07:42 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 22:07:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] to Mark re: textbooks
In-Reply-To: <COL106-W60D9EABD08C478919ECA7594890@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.15.1283014803.24052.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<COL106-W60D9EABD08C478919ECA7594890@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <144214C869AE44A8BD74348F6EB5DBD9@SonyPC>

I am in high school, so sadly I don't have a disability services office to 
work with. However, my TVI is working on getting the books, and she says she 
will find a way to get them ASAP. I purchased hard copy print books from the 
school's bookstore, and the school was going to find the books in an 
accessible format, but they had no luck.
Thanks for all of your suggestions.
Mark

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Annemarie Cooke" <aec732 at msn.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 9:41 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] to Mark re: textbooks


>
> Hi Mark, RFB&D often will record books on request if readers are available 
> in that subject area. If semester is tarting this week or next, you are 
> going to be behind if you pursue this route.
> Have you contacted your school's DSS office? Publishers will provide the 
> e-files through this channel as long as you have a recweipt for purchase 
> of a print copy. Publishers will provide files to your DSS office but not 
> necessarily to you directly because they want to ensure protection of 
> their copyright.
> Which books do you need, please?
> Thanks,
> Annemarie Cooke
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Mon Aug 30 03:48:35 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:48:35 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTin_cgrR_=k9o4iigoBe_Ng+zf44wqR3J4ydY9wk@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl>
	<8AC337E4B732423086EB5E087BCE81BF@Rufus>
	<BAY130-DS1626B823EF11526E26058E8B890@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTin_cgrR_=k9o4iigoBe_Ng+zf44wqR3J4ydY9wk@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2CC6CF2B-8D1B-4D89-90CA-10A4E0C5AE18@mac.com>

To be honest, I'm probably the youngest member of the list, so I haven't come across such ignorance, but I'm shocked at how much of this still exists today.
I think the only way to dismiss these myths is the way we've always dealt with issues like this, to keep showing people threw blind roll models, and when needed, to fight it out in the court system.

I really don't see another way.

Jorge



Thanks.



Jorge Paez


---
President And CEO:
Paez Production Networks





Please note:
this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication is directed to.
If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this message and/or any accompanying media.

On Aug 29, 2010, at 7:04 PM, Beth wrote:

> I always thought i could be a parent, and some people have said I
> should marry a sighted man just so I wouldn't have these problems.
> But my current significant other is blind, and if we married and had
> kids, I don't see why we would have problems in the first place.
> First-time mothers should know that ALL first-time mothers go through
> nursing things.  My aunt had nine kids, or she has a ninth child on
> the way, and she had her eighth child premature.  He had a few nursing
> difficulties, but it wasn't my aunt's fault.  She is sighted, luckily,
> but if it were I having had nine kids, ... well, I wouldn't have that
> many kids because it's just too many to put on a bus or lite rail.  My
> friend Blake said I should control the number and spacing of kids, but
> that's a whole different subject right there.  There is a blind
> parents division listserv for those interested btw.
> Beth
> 
> On 8/29/10, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> My point in bringing this up is to ask how do we educate and be ambassadors
>> for the blind on this issue.
>> 
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 8:46 PM
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>> 
>>> I think you're preaching to the choir.  No one would ever claim blind
>>> people
>>> cannot properly care for children.  In my opinion, where certain
>>> techniques
>>> fall short, nature firmly takes over.
>>> 
>>> Joe
>>> 
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Blachowicz
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:38 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>>> 
>>> I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people.
>>> I have noticed a lot of people have the same sort of
>>> perseptions that Blind people can not properly take care of a
>>> new born child on their own including the past case we helped
>>> fight.  I've talked to some sighted people on this case and they said
>>> "Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a
>>> child's head and will hurt or break the baby's bones".
>>> This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels
>>> me how many people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear
>>> others comments.
>>> Rob Blachowicz
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From mrsmigs at migliorelli.org  Mon Aug 30 04:03:01 2010
From: mrsmigs at migliorelli.org (Maryann Migliorelli)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 22:03:01 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
Message-ID: <000701cb47f8$3eba7660$bc2f6320$@org>

Greetings fellow students,

 

I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the formatting
for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates for
this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

Regards,

 

Maryann Migliorelli 


From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 04:17:33 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:17:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
References: <000701cb47f8$3eba7660$bc2f6320$@org>
Message-ID: <81A2B94CF20440648B71D243A7E7D62C@Espy>

If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some 
accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu 
University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have the 
link off hand, though. I'm sorry
Hope and Beignet
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Maryann Migliorelli" <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources


> Greetings fellow students,
>
>
>
> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the 
> formatting
> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates for
> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>
> Thanks in advance for the help.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Maryann Migliorelli
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5407 (20100829) __________

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From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 04:22:46 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:22:46 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
References: <BAY130-DS10CBD9BF772F12E2A9023E8B880@phx.gbl><8AC337E4B732423086EB5E087BCE81BF@Rufus><BAY130-DS1626B823EF11526E26058E8B890@phx.gbl><AANLkTin_cgrR_=k9o4iigoBe_Ng+zf44wqR3J4ydY9wk@mail.gmail.com>
	<2CC6CF2B-8D1B-4D89-90CA-10A4E0C5AE18@mac.com>
Message-ID: <ABAB5DB5FBD4411DB1EC244481BFBF15@D9P3ZND1>

George: I wholeheartedly agree laws need to be put into effect in every 
state and on a national level to protect the rights of blind parents. I'm a 
parent of a toddler and have faced some negative attitudes about being a 
blind parent, but in most cases when I explain to a sighted person the 
alternative techniques I use the lines of communication are open.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents


> To be honest, I'm probably the youngest member of the list, so I haven't 
> come across such ignorance, but I'm shocked at how much of this still 
> exists today.
> I think the only way to dismiss these myths is the way we've always dealt 
> with issues like this, to keep showing people threw blind roll models, and 
> when needed, to fight it out in the court system.
>
> I really don't see another way.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Jorge Paez
>
>
> ---
> President And CEO:
> Paez Production Networks
>
>
>
>
>
> Please note:
> this message may contain confidential and/or classified information.
> Such information is only revealed to the person to whom this communication 
> is directed to.
> If you have received this message in error, please type "error" in the 
> subject line for the reply message and destroy any and all copies of this 
> message and/or any accompanying media.
>
> On Aug 29, 2010, at 7:04 PM, Beth wrote:
>
>> I always thought i could be a parent, and some people have said I
>> should marry a sighted man just so I wouldn't have these problems.
>> But my current significant other is blind, and if we married and had
>> kids, I don't see why we would have problems in the first place.
>> First-time mothers should know that ALL first-time mothers go through
>> nursing things.  My aunt had nine kids, or she has a ninth child on
>> the way, and she had her eighth child premature.  He had a few nursing
>> difficulties, but it wasn't my aunt's fault.  She is sighted, luckily,
>> but if it were I having had nine kids, ... well, I wouldn't have that
>> many kids because it's just too many to put on a bus or lite rail.  My
>> friend Blake said I should control the number and spacing of kids, but
>> that's a whole different subject right there.  There is a blind
>> parents division listserv for those interested btw.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 8/29/10, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> My point in bringing this up is to ask how do we educate and be 
>>> ambassadors
>>> for the blind on this issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 8:46 PM
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>>>
>>>> I think you're preaching to the choir.  No one would ever claim blind
>>>> people
>>>> cannot properly care for children.  In my opinion, where certain
>>>> techniques
>>>> fall short, nature firmly takes over.
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Blachowicz
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 5:38 PM
>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] perseptions of future parents
>>>>
>>>> I know we've been discussing the perseptions of sighted people.
>>>> I have noticed a lot of people have the same sort of
>>>> perseptions that Blind people can not properly take care of a
>>>> new born child on their own including the past case we helped
>>>> fight.  I've talked to some sighted people on this case and they said
>>>> "Blind parents could not see to properly nurse or support a
>>>> child's head and will hurt or break the baby's bones".
>>>> This is the kind of ignarence we fight every day and it fuels
>>>> me how many people actually believe this.  I'd like to hear
>>>> others comments.
>>>> Rob Blachowicz
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>>> %40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/rob_blach%40hotmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net  Mon Aug 30 04:28:37 2010
From: christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net (christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:28:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
In-Reply-To: <81A2B94CF20440648B71D243A7E7D62C@Espy>
References: <000701cb47f8$3eba7660$bc2f6320$@org>
	<81A2B94CF20440648B71D243A7E7D62C@Espy>
Message-ID: <E04B6249AD944D8487D1A3EDC1241326@ChristineTHINK>

Maryann,

Here's the link to Purdue's on-line APA style guide. It's not the easiest 
page to navigate, but it has a lot of good information and examples. I work 
for a university Writing Center, and this is the link I always give to my 
students who have questions about APA.

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/

Chris Parsons



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:17 PM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] essays and sources

> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some 
> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu 
> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have the 
> link off hand, though. I'm sorry
> Hope and Beignet
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Maryann Migliorelli" <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>
>
>> Greetings fellow students,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the 
>> formatting
>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates 
>> for
>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus 
> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/christine-parsons%40sbcglobal.net 



From thebluesisloose at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 04:57:13 2010
From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 22:57:13 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
In-Reply-To: <E04B6249AD944D8487D1A3EDC1241326@ChristineTHINK>
References: <000701cb47f8$3eba7660$bc2f6320$@org>
	<81A2B94CF20440648B71D243A7E7D62C@Espy>
	<E04B6249AD944D8487D1A3EDC1241326@ChristineTHINK>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWi+vc4hMdhkDp7Mc90Nb9kUJtMsDnqDpnmK8F@mail.gmail.com>

If you use Microsoft Word 2007, and you use the sources tool on there,
there should be an installed template for APA style.  Then, if you add
in all the info for the source, the formatting is automatically laid
out.  FSU expected me to do this and use this tool.  It comes in
handy.
Beth

On 8/29/10, christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net
<christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Maryann,
>
> Here's the link to Purdue's on-line APA style guide. It's not the easiest
> page to navigate, but it has a lot of good information and examples. I work
> for a university Writing Center, and this is the link I always give to my
> students who have questions about APA.
>
> http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/
>
> Chris Parsons
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:17 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>
>> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some
>> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu
>> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have the
>> link off hand, though. I'm sorry
>> Hope and Beignet
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Maryann Migliorelli" <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>
>>
>>> Greetings fellow students,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>>> formatting
>>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates
>>> for
>>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/christine-parsons%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>


From lawnmower84 at hotmail.com  Mon Aug 30 06:42:27 2010
From: lawnmower84 at hotmail.com (Jacob Struiksma)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 23:42:27 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Facebook?
In-Reply-To: <005e01cb4571$a13de440$e3b9acc0$@net>
References: <005e01cb4571$a13de440$e3b9acc0$@net>
Message-ID: <COL107-DS23A9CD7584E66406C27D18B5890@phx.gbl>

For some reason face book changed the mobile site of face book.  I not sure
why they changed it.  I do not like it.  The mobile site face book was just
find the way it was week ago.
From
Jacob Struiksma
 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jim
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 3:54 PM
To: 'Blind Talk Mailing List'; 'National Association of Blind Students
mailing list'
Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Facebook?

Is it me or have they changed the Mobile Facebook site?  I no longer know
when new notifications are out, and the beginning part of the site has
changed somewhat.

Any idea what's going on?

Jim

 

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lawnmower84%40hotmai
l.com



From jbahm at pcdesk.net  Mon Aug 30 06:58:32 2010
From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:58:32 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
In-Reply-To: <000701cb47f8$3eba7660$bc2f6320$@org>
References: <000701cb47f8$3eba7660$bc2f6320$@org>
Message-ID: <4C7B5698.1070603@pcdesk.net>

I need a little clarification before I can answer that question clearly.
Are you asking for help with the general A.P.A. format, or are you
asking how to implement that format using a specific word processing
solution?
-- 
They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
$ ar m God
ar: creating God
There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
really does exist!
Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
On 8/29/2010 10:03 PM, Maryann Migliorelli wrote:
> Greetings fellow students,
> 
>  
> 
> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the formatting
> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates for
> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Maryann Migliorelli 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net
On 8/29/2010 10:17 PM, Hope Paulos wrote:
> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some
> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu
> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have the
> link off hand, though. I'm sorry
> Hope and Beignet
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maryann Migliorelli"
> <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
> 
> 
>> Greetings fellow students,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>> formatting
>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates
>> for
>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
> 
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> 
> http://www.eset.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net
On 8/29/2010 10:28 PM, christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> Maryann,
> 
> Here's the link to Purdue's on-line APA style guide. It's not the
> easiest page to navigate, but it has a lot of good information and
> examples. I work for a university Writing Center, and this is the link I
> always give to my students who have questions about APA.
> 
> http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/
> 
> Chris Parsons
> 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:17 PM
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] essays and sources
> 
>> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some
>> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu
>> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have
>> the link off hand, though. I'm sorry
>> Hope and Beignet
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maryann Migliorelli"
>> <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>
>>
>>> Greetings fellow students,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>>> formatting
>>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use
>>> templates for
>>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/christine-parsons%40sbcglobal.net
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net
On 8/29/2010 10:57 PM, Beth wrote:
> If you use Microsoft Word 2007, and you use the sources tool on there,
> there should be an installed template for APA style.  Then, if you add
> in all the info for the source, the formatting is automatically laid
> out.  FSU expected me to do this and use this tool.  It comes in
> handy.
> Beth
> 
> On 8/29/10, christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net
> <christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Maryann,
>>
>> Here's the link to Purdue's on-line APA style guide. It's not the easiest
>> page to navigate, but it has a lot of good information and examples. I work
>> for a university Writing Center, and this is the link I always give to my
>> students who have questions about APA.
>>
>> http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/
>>
>> Chris Parsons
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:17 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>
>>> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some
>>> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu
>>> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have the
>>> link off hand, though. I'm sorry
>>> Hope and Beignet
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Maryann Migliorelli" <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>>
>>>
>>>> Greetings fellow students,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>>>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>>>> formatting
>>>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates
>>>> for
>>>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/christine-parsons%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net





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From jbahm at pcdesk.net  Mon Aug 30 07:07:17 2010
From: jbahm at pcdesk.net (Joseph C. Lininger)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:07:17 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] jaws question
In-Reply-To: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>
References: <000d01cb46f1$1edc2e40$5c948ac0$@org>
Message-ID: <4C7B58A5.8030600@pcdesk.net>

Maryann,
You can't place a standard authorization for JAWS on something like a
portable drive and then use it on several computers. However, there are
a couple of options. You can place a portable version of JAWS on the
drive, but each machine has to be authorized separately. So, here are
the three choices.

1. Use one authorization for each machine you want to use.
2. If all machines are on a network, you can purchase a network
authorization.
3. If you want to be able to have a copy of jaws you can take between
several computers,, obtain an authorization dongle. Freedom Scientific
will give you your first one free, at least they used to. This dongle is
a little USB or parallel device which you connect to the computer you're
going to use. When you start JAWS, it will look for that dongle before
searching for authorization on the computer. If it finds it, then you
are authorized. You have to leave that dongle in the port the entire
time JAWS is running.

Probably, if you're wanting to have a copy of JAWS on a portable hard
drive or flash drive, and you're wanting to be able to use it on several
different computers like on a college campus, the dongle is probably the
best option. Just be aware that you have to have the JAWS video
intercept and the dongle driver installed on any machine you're going to
use, and that installing those things usually requires administrator access.
-- 
They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
$ ar m God
ar: creating God
There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
really does exist!
Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>

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From clb5590 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 12:21:40 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:21:40 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
In-Reply-To: <4C7B5698.1070603@pcdesk.net>
References: <000701cb47f8$3eba7660$bc2f6320$@org> <4C7B5698.1070603@pcdesk.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikgvd-e17_JkJSkjiqRjsrkSYRGi0UvnNbidWMV@mail.gmail.com>

I strongly recommend buying an APA manual 6th ed, and getting each new
edition as they come out. If you are in psychology for the long run,
it will definitely come in handy, and it is worth asking a reader or
someone exactly how the format will be as it would be cumbersome to
look at a website and know all of the italics, bolds, etc. I'm sure
websites that do the formatting can be great, but i guess i am too
anal to trust them. I also run things by my professor before i turn
papers in. Even though there is an established system, i find that
each one has their version of what they think is correct.

Cindy

On 8/30/10, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
> I need a little clarification before I can answer that question clearly.
> Are you asking for help with the general A.P.A. format, or are you
> asking how to implement that format using a specific word processing
> solution?
> --
> They say god has always been. Linux and I will now disprove that:
> $ ar m God
> ar: creating God
> There you have it. God was created by the ar program. Good news is, God
> really does exist!
> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
> On 8/29/2010 10:03 PM, Maryann Migliorelli wrote:
>> Greetings fellow students,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>> formatting
>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates for
>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net
> On 8/29/2010 10:17 PM, Hope Paulos wrote:
>> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some
>> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu
>> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have the
>> link off hand, though. I'm sorry
>> Hope and Beignet
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maryann Migliorelli"
>> <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>
>>
>>> Greetings fellow students,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>>> formatting
>>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates
>>> for
>>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net
> On 8/29/2010 10:28 PM, christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net wrote:
>> Maryann,
>>
>> Here's the link to Purdue's on-line APA style guide. It's not the
>> easiest page to navigate, but it has a lot of good information and
>> examples. I work for a university Writing Center, and this is the link I
>> always give to my students who have questions about APA.
>>
>> http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/
>>
>> Chris Parsons
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:17 PM
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>
>>> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some
>>> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu
>>> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have
>>> the link off hand, though. I'm sorry
>>> Hope and Beignet
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maryann Migliorelli"
>>> <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>>
>>>
>>>> Greetings fellow students,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>>>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>>>> formatting
>>>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use
>>>> templates for
>>>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/christine-parsons%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net
> On 8/29/2010 10:57 PM, Beth wrote:
>> If you use Microsoft Word 2007, and you use the sources tool on there,
>> there should be an installed template for APA style.  Then, if you add
>> in all the info for the source, the formatting is automatically laid
>> out.  FSU expected me to do this and use this tool.  It comes in
>> handy.
>> Beth
>>
>> On 8/29/10, christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net
>> <christine-parsons at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Maryann,
>>>
>>> Here's the link to Purdue's on-line APA style guide. It's not the easiest
>>> page to navigate, but it has a lot of good information and examples. I
>>> work
>>> for a university Writing Center, and this is the link I always give to my
>>> students who have questions about APA.
>>>
>>> http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/
>>>
>>> Chris Parsons
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>> From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at gmail.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 11:17 PM
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>>
>>>> If you google writers guide APA style, you should be able to find some
>>>> accessible sources. I don't know of any templates but I know Perdu
>>>> University has a nice accessible online writer's guide. I don't have the
>>>> link off hand, though. I'm sorry
>>>> Hope and Beignet
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Maryann Migliorelli" <mrsmigs at migliorelli.org>
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:03 AM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] essays and sources
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Greetings fellow students,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a question about documenting sources.  My college wants sources
>>>>> documented in A.P.A. style.  Does anyone know how to lay out the
>>>>> formatting
>>>>> for bibliography and in text sources?  Are there easy to use templates
>>>>> for
>>>>> this purpose, and, if so, where do I get them?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance for the help.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maryann Migliorelli
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>>>
>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
>>>> signature database 5407 (20100829) __________
>>>>
>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/christine-parsons%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/thebluesisloose%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jbahm%40pcdesk.net
>
>
>
>
>
>


From serenacucco at verizon.net  Mon Aug 30 19:18:39 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:18:39 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions
References: <32BFA9D4471546FEA65E566253D224B2@GregsToshiba><001901cb4542$bbb80af0$332820d0$@org>
	<CAB63CFCF8814816A176B351E8B073CE@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <30706245E1304734B0CC3821DCD782B8@Serene>

Usually, the publishers prefer that the disability office request the files, 
not the student.  Ask your disability office to request them.

Serena


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 6:46 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Textbook Questions


>
> I am unable to find any of my text books this year either on RFBD or book 
> share. I am wondering if anyone has tips on how to get digital files of 
> the book from publishers. If I can't get the digital copy of the book, I 
> am going to have to scan it and OCR it. Does anyone know of a professional 
> company that will do this? Has anyone found a scanner with a paper feed 
> device that works well with OCR software?
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net 



From serenacucco at verizon.net  Mon Aug 30 19:24:49 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:24:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,
	please? (Question about juggling multiple items)
References: <AANLkTim9XnGJJexh-Rdjyik_6=VrsUxx99H3GvbAz8uL@mail.gmail.com><D04D2182C16E46278B19CC20A43FD484@Serene>
	<AANLkTinn+mxYhrpDP0yLENrjPNB2dZev1oxdU8Xp4bk0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3854B06E252C4D21B99B367F12F8DD93@Serene>

I'm truely sorry you had to drop your classes.  Your Commission for the 
Blind is being absolutely insane!

Serena


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand, please? (Question about 
juggling multiple items)


> Well, because of the lack of equipment (don't even have JAWS now, nor
> even Microsoft Word), I had to drop my classes. If I left right after
> classes, I didn't get home until 6:30pm, so staying after school to do
> homework was not possible with my chronic fatigue, and the trips back
> and forth just to do homework were driving me crazy already, and it
> was just the first week! I told DSB that if they were not going to get
> my equipment until the end of the semester, I would have to drop my
> classes until they *did* get my equipment. I've been told that I'll be
> lucky if it comes in by December...totally ridiculous, isn't it? Four
> months?? I've never heard of anyone having to wait four months to get
> equipment for school.
>
> Anyway, for the first week, I just carried a bag on my back (since I
> only had my binder, paper, voice recorder, and slate and stylus). That
> worked, though my shoulder hurt by the end of the day. Still not sure
> what I'll do when I have the equipment I need...DSS just won't do it,
> saying they don't have the resources.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 8/26/10, Serena <serenacucco at verizon.net> wrote:
>> I really don't see why the DSS office can't find a volunteer to carry 
>> your
>> backpack for you.  After all, they don't have to spend anymore money to 
>> do
>> that.  Since you have a mobility impairment, having someone carry your
>> backpack is similar to using a reader, except maybe, the person won't get
>> paid.  Other than that, I don't have any creative ideas myself.  However, 
>> I
>> have a good friend with a mobility impairment who might have some ideas.
>> I'll ask her ...
>>
>> Serena
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 4:47 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Could someone lend me a hand,please? (Question about
>> juggling multiple items)
>>
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> As the title suggests, I need a bit of help...some advice, really. But
>>> I sure wish someone could literally lend me a hand. I need that third
>>> hand something fierce!
>>>
>>> Here's my dilemma. I will be starting school at the local community
>>> college in two weeks. I have a very nice High Sierra rolling backpack.
>>> It has a retractable handle with a T-grip which makes it easy to pull.
>>> However, I also have a long white cane and a T-grip support cane. One
>>> hand for the white cane, one hand for the support cane (I have tried
>>> carrying things in my right hand while using the support cane and I
>>> simply can't put enough weight on the cane to use it properly if I'm
>>> holding something...if it can hang on my wrist, and is not too heavy,
>>> I can do that, but it must be very light, such as a bag of light
>>> groceries {a bag of papertwoels, a bag with shampoo and conditiner,
>>> some small grocery items, etc.}, and one hand for the rolling
>>> backpack. That just doesn't add up to two!
>>>
>>> My primary doctor and my chiropractor have warned me several times not
>>> to put anything more than a few pounds on my shoulders or back, and
>>> definitely not a backpack full of books, so carrying the bag on my
>>> back when I use my support cane is out of the question. I have several
>>> slipped discs in my neck and severe misalignment in my back and hips,
>>> so I have to be careful not to carry too much. I also have problems
>>> with my arms and wrists; if I carry something heavy on my wrist or
>>> forearm, it will start tingling and sending lightning bolts of pain up
>>> and down my arm. Further, with my bad hips and knees, using a waist
>>> harness of some sort to pull the backpack seems out of the question as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> I brought this concern up to the Disability office at the college and
>>> they and I together could not think of anything to solve my problem. I
>>> suggested a volunteer pulling my bag from class to class, but they
>>> said they do not have the means to find someone or schedule such a
>>> volunteer's time. I am going to ask my VR counselor and my O&M
>>> instructor about it tomorrow, but I wanted to ask here. Surely I'm not
>>> the only one who has had this dilemma? Are there any of you out there
>>> who use both a white cane and a support cane with no hands for rolling
>>> backpack or other items?
>>>
>>> Any advice, suggestions, or ideas would be invaluable to me, as I'm
>>> truly at a loss. I didn't even think of it until yesterday when I was
>>> at the college and tried to do it and couldn't, and was in no
>>> condition to walk without my support cane without stumbling and/or
>>> falling often.
>>>
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizon.net 



From beckyasabo at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 22:49:08 2010
From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (becky sabo)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:49:08 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream
In-Reply-To: <COL106-W1337F3EFF0B45F139E7E1C94880@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.13.1283101204.26855.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<COL106-W1337F3EFF0B45F139E7E1C94880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <559F3BAA885F45F794F2D4A4D51B5C2A@BECKY1>

hello,
I download the books from the website rfb&d the books are in folder rfb&d
downloads I open the file folder copy the zip files to new folder on the sd
card that is in the computer put the new folder in talking books folder and
put the zip files in the folder.  it does not show up the books on the
stream when I put the sd card into the victor stream.  I do not understand
how the rfb&d manager program is post work and what it post to do?  I using
jaws 11.00  windows xp.  I need this to works SOON AS POSSIBLE TODAY I have
to read so I can do my homework for my college classes.  Why does RFB&D have
to make the process of getting books from the website to put on my stream so
hard coma plated for me?
Thanks 
Becky sabo 
beckyasabo at gmail.com 
303-350-9392 or 303-795-5747 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Annemarie Cooke
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 1:16 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream


Becky, at what point are you having difficulty? Are you uploading from your
RFB&D Media File?
There are tutorials on the RFB&D site; you also cancall 1-800-221-4792
selection 3 and gettech assistance live on the phone.
It would be useful t know where you are having idifficulty in order to
trouble-shoot for you.
Annemarie Cooke 		 	   		  
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.c
om


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Mon Aug 30 23:07:08 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 19:07:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream
In-Reply-To: <559F3BAA885F45F794F2D4A4D51B5C2A@BECKY1>
References: <mailman.13.1283101204.26855.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<COL106-W1337F3EFF0B45F139E7E1C94880@phx.gbl>
	<559F3BAA885F45F794F2D4A4D51B5C2A@BECKY1>
Message-ID: <3ED2E9E44C814BF6966E050625820C9C@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Ok, the step you need to do in the middle is to first creat a folder on the 
SD card, and then open the RFB&D downloads thing, press enter on the book 
you want to place on the Victor reader, and then copy the files from with in 
that folder to your new folder you just created on the Victor.  I know it 
seems that you should just be able to copy the folder itself, but you can't 
do it that way.  You must create the folder inside the DTB or Talking books 
folder on the SD card, open it, then go into the RFB&D downloads folder on 
your PC, open the appropriate folder with the book, and then select all with 
control+a and copy with control+c and then go back over into your new folder 
on the SD card and paste with control+v.  It should work that way.  Remember 
the key concept here is to create folders on the SD card, and copy files 
(not folders) onto the sd card inside the folders you create.  The folders 
must be inside the dtb folder.  Call RFB&D if you need further assistance, 
perhaps, and maybe, they can walk you through the entire process for one 
book.  Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "becky sabo" <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream


> hello,
> I download the books from the website rfb&d the books are in folder rfb&d
> downloads I open the file folder copy the zip files to new folder on the 
> sd
> card that is in the computer put the new folder in talking books folder 
> and
> put the zip files in the folder.  it does not show up the books on the
> stream when I put the sd card into the victor stream.  I do not understand
> how the rfb&d manager program is post work and what it post to do?  I 
> using
> jaws 11.00  windows xp.  I need this to works SOON AS POSSIBLE TODAY I 
> have
> to read so I can do my homework for my college classes.  Why does RFB&D 
> have
> to make the process of getting books from the website to put on my stream 
> so
> hard coma plated for me?
> Thanks
> Becky sabo
> beckyasabo at gmail.com
> 303-350-9392 or 303-795-5747
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Annemarie Cooke
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 1:16 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream
>
>
> Becky, at what point are you having difficulty? Are you uploading from 
> your
> RFB&D Media File?
> There are tutorials on the RFB&D site; you also cancall 1-800-221-4792
> selection 3 and gettech assistance live on the phone.
> It would be useful t know where you are having idifficulty in order to
> trouble-shoot for you.
> Annemarie Cooke
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.c
> om
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 30 23:11:31 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 19:11:31 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream
References: <mailman.13.1283101204.26855.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><COL106-W1337F3EFF0B45F139E7E1C94880@phx.gbl>
	<559F3BAA885F45F794F2D4A4D51B5C2A@BECKY1>
Message-ID: <E89737DE416D40AA968CA9F97ECD3324@Ashley>

Becky,
It takes several steps to download the books.  You could always buy a 
special cd player such as the Victor Wave and use the digital Cds instead.
That is a simple nontechnological way.

I agree the RFB download proccess is more complex than say downloading NLS 
books.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "becky sabo" <beckyasabo at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream


> hello,
> I download the books from the website rfb&d the books are in folder rfb&d
> downloads I open the file folder copy the zip files to new folder on the 
> sd
> card that is in the computer put the new folder in talking books folder 
> and
> put the zip files in the folder.  it does not show up the books on the
> stream when I put the sd card into the victor stream.  I do not understand
> how the rfb&d manager program is post work and what it post to do?  I 
> using
> jaws 11.00  windows xp.  I need this to works SOON AS POSSIBLE TODAY I 
> have
> to read so I can do my homework for my college classes.  Why does RFB&D 
> have
> to make the process of getting books from the website to put on my stream 
> so
> hard coma plated for me?
> Thanks
> Becky sabo
> beckyasabo at gmail.com
> 303-350-9392 or 303-795-5747
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Annemarie Cooke
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 1:16 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] To Becky re: downloading onto the Stream
>
>
> Becky, at what point are you having difficulty? Are you uploading from 
> your
> RFB&D Media File?
> There are tutorials on the RFB&D site; you also cancall 1-800-221-4792
> selection 3 and gettech assistance live on the phone.
> It would be useful t know where you are having idifficulty in order to
> trouble-shoot for you.
> Annemarie Cooke
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.c
> om
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Tue Aug 31 03:16:00 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:16:00 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] mac adress on braille note apex
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS131B50FAB68DDC41C6E84A8B8A0@phx.gbl>

Does anyone know how to acess the mac adress on braille notes?
Thanks
Rob Blachowicz

From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 31 03:46:53 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:46:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Registration Open for 2011 NASA Lunabotics Mining
	Competition
Message-ID: <7573C8CA1893498F88E948BAD22A8B8E@D3DTZP41>

Hello:

     I thought this might be of possible interest.

Regards,

Robert

----- Original Message ----- 
From: NASA Education 
To: Robert Jaquiss 
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 3:25 PM
Subject: Registration Open for 2011 NASA Lunabotics Mining Competition


NASA is challenging U.S. and international undergraduate and graduate student teams to design and build a remote-controlled or autonomous excavator that could be used on the moon. The excavator must be able to collect and deposit a minimum of 10 kilograms (22 pounds) of lunar simulant in 15 minutes.

Design teams must include one faculty advisor from a college or university and two or more undergraduate or graduate students. A group of universities may work in collaboration, and multidisciplinary teams are encouraged.

Selected teams will compete in the Lunabotics Mining Competition at NASA’s Kennedy Space Center in Florida on May 23-28, 2011.

Teams must apply no later than Feb. 28, 2011. There will be a limited number of teams allowed to compete.

A webcast will be held on Sept. 22, 2010, at 3 p.m. EDT covering details about applying for the competition, the required milestones to compete on-site, and the requirements of the competition. There will be a review of the lessons learned from this past year’s competitors. This webcast is an opportunity for teams, new and old, to discover what ideas worked and what did not. This is your chance to ask your questions and get answers. You may submit questions during the webcast to lunabotics at gmail.com.

In advance of the webcast
--  Please visit http://dln.nasa.gov/ and click on the DLiNfo Channel button on the left-hand side.
--  Pop-ups must be enabled in your Web browser.
--  Please complete the brief usage form.
--  A plug-in may be necessary to download, depending on your computer/browser.

For more information about the competition and to apply online, visit http://www.nasa.gov/lunabotics.

Please e-mail any questions about this opportunity to Susan Sawyer at Susan.G.Sawyer at nasa.gov.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note: You received this message due to your subscription to the NASA Education EXPRESS mailing list. If you wish to unsubscribe, go to http://www.nasa.gov/education/express and follow the instructions.

------
NASA Education
http://www.nasa.gov/education

      EXPRESS | Modify Your Subscription  

From gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org  Tue Aug 31 14:03:18 2010
From: gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org (Greg)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:03:18 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Question about note taking
Message-ID: <9532C6CEAE1A43FB893A62EDF12B8D74@GregsToshiba>

Hello all,
I was curious if anyone had any suggestions on where to find infromation on effective note taking?  For instance, a good website or book.
Thank you in advance,
Greg Wocher

From agrima at nbp.org  Tue Aug 31 17:00:17 2010
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:00:17 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Leo Lionni's "It's Mine!" in print/braille
Message-ID: <6F91D7B7714940FEB3FF7F31214EAF0F@nbp2.local>

Here's the latest print/braille books from National Braille Press.
-Tony Grima, NBP

September 2010 Book Club Selection
It's Mine!
By Leo Lionni
Print/braille edition, $6.99
In contracted braille with skiplines
Ages 4-8

In this charmer from Caldecott-winner Leo Lionni, three childlike frogs
spend their days bickering and baiting each other: "It's mine," claims
one about the water. Another claims to own the earth, or a worm, or a
butterfly - or whatever. It isn't until disaster almost strikes and they
are saved by a toad that Milton, Rupert and Lydia realize that private
ownership isn't that important. 

Whether grumbling for the sake of being difficult or dancing with
delight, Lionni's frogs spring to life. 

"This story of selfishness on the pond, carried out in beautifully
simple collages and language, is a fine choice for story hours."--School
Library Journal.   

"Lionni captures the essence of siblings in the cute frog characters.
The moral is easy to understand and something to remember for all ages,
not just children. A definite must have." - An Amazon reader



To order or read more about this book online, visit 
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BC1009-ITSMINE.html



******
To order any books, send payment to:
NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 
20. Or order any of our books online at 
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html .




From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 17:07:49 2010
From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:07:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Question about note taking
In-Reply-To: <9532C6CEAE1A43FB893A62EDF12B8D74@GregsToshiba>
References: <9532C6CEAE1A43FB893A62EDF12B8D74@GregsToshiba>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzcY71Et-S=AtbMF5hzCvhtj2kdqfQKjBZKYW-@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Greg,

I am partially sighted and hand-write  notes. i didn't realize it until now,
but I use the "Cornell" method of note-taking. You can google it and there
are guides. What I put in each of the three sections varies a little bit,
though i.e. I put vocabulary, concepts I want to look up int eh bottom
section; questions i have, and the comments of other students and the
professor in the left column, and my standard notes in the large right-hand
section.

Kate

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Greg <gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
> I was curious if anyone had any suggestions on where to find infromation on
> effective note taking?  For instance, a good website or book.
> Thank you in advance,
> Greg Wocher
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Kathryn CARROLL
BlueLaw international LLP
703-647-7508 W
631-521-318 C

From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 21:14:40 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:14:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Question about note taking
References: <9532C6CEAE1A43FB893A62EDF12B8D74@GregsToshiba>
Message-ID: <BAB9FE72E9BC4AAA90FAF6E0143A0EEE@PC185582706413>

Hi Greg

I have never posted on this topic since there is probably much easier 
concepts. I am completely blind and find that i rather get my books from the 
publisher since it is on my computer and my stream and can easily look up a 
word for spelling. What i do for notetaking is simply record the class on my 
stream then later open a word doc and type out the main points that i will 
need to study later. In some classes professors gave out handouts and my DSS 
office would scan them and save them as a word doc then attatch it to an 
email, however i also had a notetaker write out some of the stuff wrote on 
the board then DSS office would type it and email.

hope this helps
        -TTeal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <gwblindman1 at gwblindman.org>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:03 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] Question about note taking


> Hello all,
> I was curious if anyone had any suggestions on where to find infromation 
> on effective note taking?  For instance, a good website or book.
> Thank you in advance,
> Greg Wocher
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>