[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

Joe Orozco jsorozco at gmail.com
Tue Aug 17 00:14:10 UTC 2010


Valerie,

I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  It
might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs are
likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting learning how to
deal with them, but if I were the school personnel and you said you needed a
sighted person to accompany you to a client's home, I'd grow suspicious all
over again about whether or not you would be fit to do the job.  I know
readers help us successfully complete exams, but this is because without
readers we sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With something
as hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal
with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be
prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
assistance.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany 
me, just to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't 
alter the program i would think.  It would be no diferent than 
having a reader read tests.

If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, 
i could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with 
me, simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess 
the situation.

Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

Thank you for your feedback.

Val
On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is 
that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a 
blind person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and 
may benefit sighted students.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
> 
> Original message:
>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>> but having that alternative training available has 
revoluationized the
>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.
> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
> 
>> Original message:
>>> Greetings all,
> 
>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind 
headquarters,
>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  
I gave him a
>>> rundown of what i told you guys.
> 
>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i 
shared. Going
>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in 
the fall of
>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i 
think, he will
>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.
> 
>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the 
fundalmental training
>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their 
program for you.
> 
>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:
> 
>>>> Val!
> 
>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.
> 
>>>> Justin
> 
>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
> 
>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide 
dogs. ittrains
>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.
> 
>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional 
dog trainer in some
>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question 
test that will
>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I 
do plan on
>>>>> training various service dogs.
> 
>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog 
training school, the
>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a 
confrontational pet
>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely 
to happen since
>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.
> 
>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i 
plan to contact the
>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.
> 
>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right 
now, my own family is
>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but 
is nevertheless.
>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.
> 
> 
>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean 
time i'll kep you
>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's 
thought about becoming a
>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their 
blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
> 
>>>>>> Hi Val and all,
> 
>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst 
discrimination we
>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of 
blind people,
>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The 
underlying attitude
>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized 
services, but
>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind 
that people
>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this 
school expect
>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations 
where their dog
>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>> confrontational"?
> 
>>>>>> Arielle
> 
>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make 
people like me for
>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to 
school and
>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's 
shelters.  So what
>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big 
violent guy?
>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>> Beth
> 
>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this 
school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.
> 
>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and 
this one seems to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of 
subjects related to
>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, 
health problems in
>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>> etc.
> 
>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that 
they liked, then
>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then 
told them, "now
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second 
best.", they would
>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.
> 
>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them 
in universities,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.
> 
>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with 
people who do not
>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not 
allow me to train
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.
> 
>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and 
foundation that i
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking 
anyone to like me
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:
> 
>>>>>>>>> Mark,
> 
>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding 
another school that
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for 
themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's 
career, but not
>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her 
to an awkward
>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it 
go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard 
time about my
>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the 
first two occasions
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I 
fought it and
>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from 
DC, but the
>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful 
muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but 
by then the case
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point 
is that the current
>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  
Finding another school
>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one 
option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not 
know Valerie
>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications 
associated with
>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied 
is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if 
for no other reason
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind 
applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow 
people to board their
>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know 
they'll at least
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."
> 
>>>>>>>>> Best,
> 
>>>>>>>>> Joe
> 
>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some 
turn up their
>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at 
all."--Sam Ewing
> 
> 
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> 
> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
> 
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