[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

[Jedi]

It seems to me that one way to get around that particular issue is to 
ask the owner some questions about how the dog visually looks/their 
overall temprament. Presumably, the owner would be involved in training 
the dog alongside the professional. Was it Peter who suggested that val 
contact some blind trainers? I wonder how they get around the language barrier?

Respectfully Submitted

Original message:
> I don't read Meghan as assuming sight is necessary so much as offering
> arguments for why certain aspects of training a dog can be visual.  I do
> completely agree that much of what we think requires sight only really
> requires some imagination, patience, and hard work.  There are very few
> things that I think a sufficiently motivated blind person cannot do.
> However, one important difference between training a person in mobility and
> training an animal is the use of language.  You can ask the person to
> describe what exactly she is doing.  You can't do this with a dog; though
> you can ask someone else, as has been suggested, to describe the actions of
> the dog.  Like Meghan, I don't mean to suggest that it can't be done, but
> the ability of the one being trained to use language does seem to be a
> fairly important difference between the cases of mobility instructor and dog
> trainer.

> Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 9:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>> I don't think the two are as different as we'd like to think they might be.
>> Remember that there are both blind and sighted people who honestly believe
>> that blind persons cannot teach cane travel, let alone travel with a cane
>> independently for all kinds of reasons including why vision is required to
>> maneuver obstacles or avoid getting hit by traffic; these individuals are
>> as certain on the necessity of vision for independent travel and/or
>> teaching independent travel as some blind and sighted people are regarding
>> the need for vision in dog training. It's important to recognize that in
>> every situation like this, that our lack of knowledge on non-visual
>> techniques in a given field does not necessarily mean that something can't
>> be done non-visually. Likewise, we must be careful in assuming that vision
>> is necessary in a given field because conventional wisdom tends to support
>> the primacy of sight without giving any thought to the possibility of
>> non-visual capacity for doing something. In other words, I always feel it's
>> important to ask myself whether or not something really requires sight
>> before I assume it does. More often than not, I find that my limitation in
>> a field has nothing to do with sight and more to do with a lack of
>> creativity on my part.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi


>> Original message:
>>> Honestly, cane travel and dog training are not at all the same, and I
>>> don't
>>> think it is fare to be comparing the two.

>>> Dealing with an agressive dog who is capable of causing bodily harm when
>>> you're just standing there, if you don't pick up on the visual queues
>>> that
>>> he's feeling threatened is different than coming up to a difficult to
>>> figure
>>> out obstacle with a cane.

>>> I don't think I'm making much sense here, so let me know if clarification
>>> is
>>> needed.

>>> Meghan
>>> I'm
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 10:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!


>>>> By taking a sighted person along in aggressive dog or potentially
>>>> aggressive dog situations, or by asking for such an accommodation in the
>>>> classroom setting, you're basically reinforcing the notion that sight is
>>>> required for getting feedback from an aggressive dog. That probably
>>>> wouldn't be so as much in the real world post dog school, but the dog
>>>> training school would definitely be problematic for that reason. It
>>>> would
>>>> be like saying that a blind person can be a cane travel teacher and
>>>> monitor their student non-visually, only to ask for a sighted person to
>>>> come along to monitor the student visually. Also, by asking for a
>>>> sighted
>>>> person to tag along, the issue of non-visual access to the training
>>>> doesn't get pushed, creativity slows down, and the status quo remains.
>>>> Maybe I'm wrong, but that sounds counterintuitive to what you're trying
>>>> to
>>>> advocate.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be
>>>>> altering
>>>>> the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just to tell me
>>>>> what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program i would
>>>>> think.
>>>>> It would be no diferent than having a reader read tests.

>>>>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i could
>>>>> inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, simply to
>>>>> give
>>>>> me visual feedback so that i could assess the situation.

>>>>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

>>>>> Thank you for your feedback.

>>>>> Val
>>>>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

>>>>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is that the
>>>>>> training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind person gets
>>>>>> involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit sighted
>>>>>> students.

>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi

>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the
>>>>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind cane
>>>>>>> travel instructors are tained a little differently from sighted ones,
>>>>>>> but having that alternative training available has revoluationized
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

>>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>>> Jedi

>>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>>> Greetings all,

>>>>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>>>> headquarters,
>>>>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.  I gave
>>>>>>>> him
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>>>>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i shared.
>>>>>>>> Going
>>>>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  "can
>>>>>>>> push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in the fall
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i think, he
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>>>>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about,
>>>>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the fundalmental
>>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable
>>>>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their program for
>>>>>>>> you.

>>>>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>>>>>>>> Val!

>>>>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>>>>>>>> Justin

>>>>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide dogs.
>>>>>>>>>> ittrains
>>>>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional dog
>>>>>>>>>> trainer
>>>>>>>>>> in some
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question test that
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I do plan
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog training
>>>>>>>>>> school, the
>>>>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>>>>>>>>>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely to happen
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i plan to
>>>>>>>>>> contact the
>>>>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right now, my own
>>>>>>>>>> family is
>>>>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but is
>>>>>>>>>> nevertheless.
>>>>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean time
>>>>>>>>>> i'll
>>>>>>>>>> kep you
>>>>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's thought about
>>>>>>>>>> becoming a
>>>>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their blindness.On Aug 15,
>>>>>>>>>> 2010, at
>>>>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst discrimination
>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of blind
>>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The underlying
>>>>>>>>>>> attitude
>>>>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>>>>>>>>>>> services,
>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even more
>>>>>>>>>>> important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind that
>>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to discriminate
>>>>>>>>>>> against blind trainers. For that matter, how does this school
>>>>>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations where their
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and
>>>>>>>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle

>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make people like
>>>>>>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to school
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's shelters.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big violent
>>>>>>>>>>>> guy?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty big
>>>>>>>>>>>> brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about one's
>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this school,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bcause
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and this one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of subjects
>>>>>>>>>>>>> related to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition, health
>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> liked, then
>>>>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then told them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "now
>>>>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second best.", they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> universities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with people who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not allow me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> train
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and foundation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that i
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking anyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like me
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's career,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her to an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awkward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it go.  A few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the first two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> occasions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I fought it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from DC, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful muttering.  On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> third
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but by then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.  Finding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one option,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not know
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications associated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if for no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applicants.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow people to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know they'll at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ewing


>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org

>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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