[nabs-l] Braille Vs Technology: is there room for onlyone intown?

Thu Jan 7 22:05:13 UTC 2010

Jedi,

I think your comments reflect a sort of black and white understanding of
literacy.  First off, Patterson, as I recall, can read print if it is
magnified and he uses his good eye.  Since he can read, it stands to reason
that he can write.  I'm not sure about the woman, but I would be very
surprised if she were unable to write at all.

The problem is that people are throwing around a very loaded word,
illiterate/illiteracy, in a casual manner without offering any sort of
definition.  If illiteracy means the inability to read or write, then anyone
who can write is not illiterate, since they would not lack the ability to
read *and* write.  If this understanding of illiteracy is correct, then far
fewer blind people are actually illiterate than cannot read Braille (i.e.,
the number of blind people who are illiterate is much smaller than the
number of blind people who cannot read print or Braille).  This is because
many people are able to write without being able to read Braille.

Secondly, I don't know how you are defining reading.  Clearly, it is not how
most sighted people define reading (the visual processing of symbols into
associated meanings) since this would exclude Braille.  Now you could expand
this definition to say that reading is the visual or tactile processing of
symbols into associated meanings, but this really strikes me as a bit ad
hoc.  Why is it that only these two senses can be used for reading?

Your definition of reading seems to be the following: take symbols, process
them, and make meaning out of them.  Well, give me a printed book, an OCR
program, and screen-reading software, and I can do just that.  My guess is
that you too, as a Braille reader, would have to convert a printed book into
an alternative format if it were handed to you, so conversion into an
alternative format doesn't make the process any less legitimate.

Here's the research that I would like to see.  Let's assume that reading
activates a certain portion of the brain, and let's also assume that reading
Braille activates the same portion.  What I would like to know is whether
reading using a screen reader activates that same portion.  Don't be so
quick to dismiss the idea.  I can tell you that when I use a screen reader,
I imagine the words that I used to see when I read print.  This doesn't
happen when I listen to a human voice.  Reading using a screen reader and
listening to a human voice are not the same experience for me personally,
and I suspect that the part of my brain that used to be activated when I
read print is now being activated when I use a screen reader.  If this is
true, and I know there are a lot of assumptions here, would this not
demonstrate that one can read using ones sense of hearing? And I say why
not; why would reading be limited to the senses of vision and touch.
Remember that up until tactile forms of reading were invented only a few
hundred years ago, the idea of reading using any sense other than vision
would have been ludicrous.

I think it might help to recognize that a process as complicated as reading
cannot be easily reduced to either Braille or print.  Anyone who has read
Crashing Through, the book about Mike May, or anyone who knows someone with
a severe learning disability will know that reading is a very complicated
process that requires more than the ability to see printed letters.  It is a
process that no one really fully understands, and it seems entirely
reasonable to me that reading using screen readers is possible, particularly
for someone like me who read print until adulthood.

I suppose my main point here is that the label illiterate has been applied
far too liberally in this discussion, and an inability to read print or
Braille does not necessarily make one illiterate.

Best,

Marc

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
Behalf Of Jedi
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 12:50 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Braille Vs Technology: is there room for onlyone
intown?

No offense mate, but they are unable to read and write. If you give
them something in writing, they can't read it, can they? I don't
honestly know if they can write. As one person has observed, it's
possible to be well read and also be illiterate. No one is trying to
put anyone down. Instead, people are trying to get at the idea that to
physically read (take symbols, process them, and make meaning out of
them), Braille is the best method for the blind. If we're talking about
assimilating information, either Braille or audio will work. Most seem
to agree that both skills are important. Where people are especially
taking issue is when blind people aren't even given the opportunity to
learn braille even though sighted people are given the opportunity to
learn print.

I have a question for you. Do you read Braille? It wouldn't matter
except to say that your reaction to our discussion is quite violent and
I wonder if you yourself are feeling attacked.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> I cannot imagine calling clearly accomplished people such as the governor
of
> New York or the woman in the article "illiterate" as you did.  It is mean
> spirited, self indulgent, and most importantly indicates a
misunderstanding
> of the meaning of the word illiterate.  The American Heritage dictionary
> defines illiterate as follows:

> 1. illiterate. adjective.

> Unable to read and write.

> Having little or no formal education.

> 2. Marked by inferiority to an expected standard of familiarity with
> language and literature.

> Violating prescribed standards of speech or writing.

> 3. Ignorant of the fundamentals of a given art or branch of knowledge:
> musically illiterate. See Usage Note at literate.

> It saddens me that it does not seem possible for us as blind people to
> discuss blindness without personal attacks.  As long as we can be induced
to
> continue attacking one another we are doing the work of those who would
like
> to see us excluded from all aspects of society.  All they need do is sit
on
> the sidelines and watch the feathers fly.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Braille Vs Technology: is there room for only one
> intown?

>> Let me first acknowledge the truth of what Mark has pointed out in terms
>> of
>> the anecdotal nature of much of the evidence proffered in support of
>> Braille
>> literacy increasing employment opportunities for the blind. I also admit
>> freely that I have never dug into the numbers we so often bandy about in
>> relation to literacy rates among the blind, literacy rates among the
>> employed blind and the unemployment rate for blind individuals and do not
>> know how carefully designed or well executed any of the studies from
which
>> we glean these numbers actually were.

>> All this being said, I absolutely believe that Braille, for persons who
>> are
>> unable and have never learned to read print, is a necessity and not
simply
>> a
>> tool in a toolbox. I qualify this because Marc was once again, I think,
>> correct in drawing the distinction between those who learn to read print
>> and
>> go blind later in life and those who are blind from a young age and never
>> learn to read via any medium. For somebody who read print and achieved
>> literacy, Braille is an incredibly useful tool that can make some tasks
>> easier and more efficient and allow one to recapture the pleasure of
>> reading
>> to oneself, but for those who never learned to read print, Braille is the
>> only path to literacy. So, barring any complicating factors such as
>> additional disabilities, I firmly believe that all blind children and all
>> non-print-reading blind adults must be expected to learn to read Braille.
>> Accepting anything less is to give the stamp of approval to lower
>> expectations of the blind among the general public. When Joe Sighted is
>> illiterate at age 25, we all recognize this as a big problem. It is no
>> different for the blind, it's a big problem.

>> I also agree with Joe, to a degree, that it is not a simple as Braille
>> literate equals employed. But I think that it is beyond dispute that
being
>> able to read is a crucial skill for nearly any job seeker to have.
Braille
>> is not "the difference", but all else being equal, it certainly puts
>> somebody who can read it at a great advantage over somebody else
similarly
>> situated who cannot. Just assume for a moment that the numbers we so
often
>> cite are close to accurate. 30 in 100 blind people are employed. Of those
>> 30, 24 of them are able to read Braille. WE don't really know what the
>> literacy rate among the working age blind is, but if it is under 50%,
>> which
>> it almost certainly is, you can do the math and see that there is
>> something
>> going on here.

>> I myself have been blind all my life. In elementary school attempts were
>> made to teach me to read print with the severely limited vision that I
>> had.
>> I did not learn to read. What I was doing was more akin to decoding;
>> agonizing over each letter to discern what it was and then piecing it
>> together to make a word. At age 25 I learned to read Braille. Braille has
>> proved useful in finding employment not only because of the specific
tasks
>> it makes easier on the job, but more so because of the fact that it has
>> made
>> me literate. Literacy means knowing how things are spelled and how
>> punctuation is used. Literacy means being able to express yourself in
>> writing in a manner that accurately reflects your level of intelligence.
>> Sure, it is nice to use a Braille display to access and take notes in
>> meetings where speech output would be distracting. Yes, it is great to be
>> able to use an outline or notes when addressing people publicly. However,
>> these are simply instances where Braille is a tool, and in my opinion the
>> best one, to get the job done. There are other ways to perform these
>> tasks.
>> Where there is no substitution for being literate is in communicating
your
>> ideas in writing. In college, I would hand in work of supposed high
>> academic
>> quality with the most egregious spelling and punctuation errors in it.
Who
>> can take that seriously? Yes there is spell-check and you can arrow
>> through
>> character by character to find out how words are spelled and things are
>> punctuated, but this approach means you only learn when you know you
don't
>> know. When you read, you pick things up naturally along the way and
>> assimilate them.

>> Of course it is true that some illiterate blind people like Laura Sloate
>> and
>> the Governor of New York have achieved the pinnacles of financial and
>> professional success. More power to them. I could point you toward people
>> who have become very successful without completing a high school
education
>> let alone a college degree. Will anybody stand up and argue based on this
>> fact that bachelor's and advanced degrees don't lead to more and better
>> employment prospects for those who hold them?

>> Literacy is absolutely essential for professional opportunities and
>> Braille
>> is the only means by which to achieve it if one does not read print.
Blind
>> people who don't know Braille are certainly not inferior people, but they
>> are absolutely working with an inferior set of skills, and if Laura
Sloate
>> would like to debate the point, I would gladly do so, regardless of how
>> much
>> money she makes.

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcgl
obal.net

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samo
bile.net

--
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gma
il.com