[nabs-l] Fwd: Gamers Digest, Vol 51, Issue 199

Josh jkenn337 at gmail.com
Fri May 28 18:28:30 UTC 2010



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Gamers Digest, Vol 51, Issue 199
Date: 	Fri, 28 May 2010 11:06:07 -0700
From: 	gamers-request at audyssey.org
Reply-To: 	gamers at audyssey.org
To: 	gamers at audyssey.org



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Today's Topics:

    1. Re:  drastic change for audio games (Thomas Ward)
    2. Re:  drastic change for audio games (Thomas Ward)
    3.  The other side was  drastic change for audio games
       (Ron Schamerhorn)
    4. Re:  drastic change for audio games (Thomas Ward)
    5.  Friday's Out of Sight events (Charles Rivard)
    6. Re:  drastic change for audio games (David Mehler)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:10:47 -0400
From: Thomas Ward<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: Charles Rivard<wooferess at sbcglobal.net>,	Gamers Discussion list
	<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] drastic change for audio games
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTinkPGwOlhpRSWBz5lYANa-A3QEvllE2eZgVfXnS at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi,
Thanks Charles. I'm glad to see a little common sense on this list
besides myself. I'm really growing a bit sick of the people who want
to complain about the way things are, make it sound so easy to fix,
but when it comes down to doing something about it they are just hot
air.
If Josh really wants to see the laws changed why doesn't he go to
court and file a suit against any game company he chooses to take to
court. Why doesn't he fly to Washington, higher a lawyer, and go to
Congress with his ideas.   If it is so easy to do I want to see him do
it. Show us how he plans to over come all the usual problems of money,
influence, and on what legal grounds can he make his case.
Same goes for the gamers on this list who want games equal to Street
Fighter 4 or anything like that. I've got a very good suggestion for
them. Please, take a few programming courses, spend a couple thousand
for a high quality sound library, pay money for any tools/libraries
they need, and come back in five years or so and let us know how well
work on Accessible Street Fighter is coming along. I bet it will be a
much bigger task than they could ever have imagined possible. Still
according to them it is easy right? So show me how easy it is.

On 5/28/10, Charles Rivard<wooferess at sbcglobal.net>  wrote:
>  How do you plan to change laws that big business game corporations do not
>  want changed?  They have the clout and man power to keep things just as they
>  want them.  They also have the money to apply influence.  And that's just
>  one of the many hurdles to jump, and it's a huge one!  Saying what you think
>  has to be done is very easy.  Getting those things done is quite another.
>  Go ahead and pick any of your suggestions as to what needs to be done, work
>  on it, and let us know how you're progressing.  Thanks.
>  ---
>  In God we trust.



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:27:44 -0400
From: Thomas Ward<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: Gamers Discussion list<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] drastic change for audio games
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTiko_7kO_NibzQ7P0RlqyNZRPS1yt_UqKs1qIyth at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi,
Exactly. There also is no such thing as a standard programming
language. A lot of it comes down to what you need the language to do
as much as personal preference. If there was such a thing as a
standard programming language, one that could do everything wee need,
there wouldn't be so many of them to choose from.
Case in point. Most professional game studios write their games in
C++. Through a lot of personal research I've found C++ is in deed the
best language of choice for designing vidio games, but however it does
come at the price of added time and complexity. Newer rapid
development languages like Microsoft's C# .NET are so much easier to
use, handles things like strings better, etc but at the price of a
bunch of extra dependencies like the .NET Framework, XNA Framework,
and other .NET components that may or may not be present on your
Windows operating system. There are good solid arguments to go either
way.



On 5/28/10, Bryan Peterson<bpeterson2000 at cableone.net>  wrote:
>  That's the point Josh. Mainstream game designers have enough clout to see
>  that, barring more or less divine intervention, the law won't be changing
>  anytime soon, and certainly not without more money than we can afford to
>  fork over. As for the standard programming language, that's also not going
>  to happen since each developer has the language that he or she is most
>  familiar and comfortable with. So as much as I hate to say it, this probably
>  isn't going to happen.
>  We are the Knights who say...Ni!



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:44:38 -0400
From: "Ron Schamerhorn"<blindwonder at cogeco.ca>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: [Audyssey] The other side was  drastic change for audio games
Message-ID:<A60E6EDC9D7E4457816BE5DF2E415499 at userj35ru5ew1c>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello all

   Okay here I go wading in to the optomistic side of such a discussion.
True our community lags behind the mainstream market when it comes to
gaming.  The points on this have been made by others so I won't repeat them
here.
   What I would like to point out to everyone is rather the achievements
which have been made in accessible gaming.  SOD was quite a pioneering
venture at the time, nothing like it had been attempted before.  We have
online play against other people with titles like Sound RTS, Rail Racer.
Chatting [granted it's text] with RR, All In Play,  Expansions and
improvements it's covered with ongoing updates from Final conflict, and the
Pinball party pack.  User creation TOC, and it looks as though Entombed will
soon have such a feature.  Other devs continue to improve their games,
squashing bugs or improving aspects of the game.
   The point I really would like to drive home here is that we've damnwell
come a long way in a much shorter period of time then mainstream.  Pong, or
the old console TeleStar, even the Atari 2600.  That is surely the
70's/80's.  Our devs have only been going at this for what?  The answer
being about 15 years give or take.  This compares with 30 or so?
   I believe the gaming for the blind has moved alot quicker in the overall
scheme of things.  I suggest instead of always looking at what isn't there,
look upon the distance which has been covered in such a short period of
time.
   Before it's said yes there is lots of room for improvement.  I believe it
will happen, but there will be some time taken for this evolution.
   One last point online scoreboards.  It didn't take long for those to
happen.
   Overall I'd rather encourage the inovation and envolope pushing of all
accessible devs rather then pointing out the shortcomings.

Thanks for reading
Ron
P.S. see other arguements on things like budgets, teams and such.




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:46:22 -0400
From: Thomas Ward<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>
To: Gamers Discussion list<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] drastic change for audio games
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTim-_Mv7Cxxx9tLT_SvRcPNSR7L7vKw7PEJeUuR7 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Dark,
Agreed. If we have to compare audio games to something let us try and
compare them to the small independant mainstream game market for the
PC. Although, it might be challenging it is at least something a one
to three man operation can achieve realistically. Those small
companies aren't trying to beat out Capcom or Nintendo, and neither
should we.
If we have to use Nintendo or somebody as a standard then let's aim
for the quality and standards of say the Super NES era. While old by
mainstream standards it would be extremely high considering the
majority of accessible games. there is nothing wrong with games like
Super Donkey Kong, Super Castlevania, Megaman, and other games of that
era. Even now I find games like that enjoyable, and my wife and son
enjoy them too.  Just because something is old and isn't the latest
and greatest doesn't make it necessarily bad.
As you mentioned yourself Chess is very old, but is still one of the
most enjoyable board games around. The rules haven't changed in 800
years or something like that. Should we now decide that it is old and
add new pieces, create a larger board, change the rules, etc just
because it hasn't been updated in so long? Of course not.
Same holds true for vidio games. Just because Super Castlevania is old
doesn't mean it is necessarily bad. It is true that it can't quite
compare to newer encarnations like the later roll playing Castlevania
games, but it still deserves to be considered a good game in its own
right. Judge it for the quality it is rather than trying to judge it
soully on what it lacks compared to modern games.

Smile.


On 5/28/10, dark<dark at xgam.org>  wrote:
>  Again Josh, who! is going to do all this?
>
>  Changing the law is a long and complex pprocess, and as I said, is dmnably
>  difficult when someone with big big money has a vested interest in the law
>  being otherwise.
>
>  Then, "just get" ppeople toc ollaborate in that way on a game is, as Tom
>  ward said, far easier said than done.
>
>  if you have the odd 500 k dollars floating around you might employ a bunch
>  of developers for a couple of years who will work full time, get enough
>  resources in terms of sound libraries, necessary third party developement
>  components etc, and perhaps come up with a game of similar quality to sf 4
>  etc.
>
>  As for the modification of a console, ---- see the above mentioning of law,
>  then apply the word license, ditto with publicity, ---- heck, i can't even
>  raise the thousand pounds or so it'd take for me to go to the site village
>  exhibition as a representative of audiogames.net
>
>  This is why I strongly suggest that people, instead of considdering audio
>  games comapred to the mainstream console markit, considder the independently
>  produced pc games which have been built with similar amounts of resources,
>  time and man power.
>
>  yes, audio games are stil behind in this respect, but the gap is
>  changing, ---- especially with games like time of conflict, rail racer and
>  entombed, and establishing a core of highly playable pc games with replay,
>  expantion and variety is I think a far more realistic aime than trying to
>  beat sony or nintendo.
>
>  Beware the grue!
>
>  Dark.



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:09:37 -0500
From: "Charles Rivard"<wooferess at sbcglobal.net>
To:<Undisclosed-Recipient: ;@smtp108.sbc.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Subject: [Audyssey] Friday's Out of Sight events
Message-ID:<1CA0A974B09A4C7299484D901DA7508B at charlescd60016>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
	reply-type=original

The Out of Sight main site is at:

http://www.out-of-sight.net

Good morning gang!


New Game Hosts!
First of all, we would like to thank Lyn so much for her two years of
hosting our On Stage and Memory Lane events!  We can't thank you enough Lyn,
and hope to see you soon!

Second, two lovely ladies have graciously agreed to host these events, and
they are:  Suzy B. to host Memory Lane, beginning tonight, and Lisa filroy
will host On Stage beginning on Saturday.  Thank you ladies for volunteering
to take over these very popular events!


Cancellation:
Trivial Pursuit is cancelled for this Saturday.  In its place, Shelley will
host her chain Reaction game for one hour, from 7:00 PM to 8:00 PM eastern.
Thank you Shelley.


Here are the events scheduled for Friday, May 28th:


Word Burst

6:00 PM eastern

Hosted by Kathy Mertz

Location:  Games Anyone

Do you love to play Outburst? Do you love words? Let's put the two together
and play Word Burst! Word Burst is the same as Outburst, except that you
don't call out items in categories, such as Elvis hits or makes of cars.
Instead, the members of each team call out anagrams of the word I will give
you. So come in and find the words within a word. Hope to see you there.





God's Praise and Worship Hour

7:00 PM eastern

Hosted by Diane

Location:  How Great Thou Art

Hi everyone come and join me, Diane, known as Live by Faith, for God's
Praise and Worship hour from 7:00 to 8:00 PM eastern, on Fridays.  We can
come
together and listen to a selection of songs that I have created to praise
and worship God.  Look forward to seeing you there.  Be blessed!




Memory Lane
8:00 PM eastern
Hosted by Suzy B.
Location:  Out of Sight Presents
Would you like to know more about your friends here on Out of Sight? Do you
wonder what caused their blindness?  Would you like to know about their
passions?  What careers they've had throughout life? If so, let's take a
trip down Memory Lane. This event will be held on the fourth Friday evening
of every month.  Come on in and get to know a fellow Out of Sight member!
This month's featured guest is: James Clayton, aka Plowboy!





Have a wonderful holiday weekend!








------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:06:03 -0400
From: David Mehler<dave.mehler at gmail.com>
To: Gamers Discussion list<gamers at audyssey.org>
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] drastic change for audio games
Message-ID:
	<AANLkTimBfNuGejchCa-4aSaLTdev2vq3gIOFY_G50yIm at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hello,
I'd like to chime in my two cents on this issue. This is just my
opinion take it for what it's worth.
First of all, i agree with everything regarding the difficulty of
changing a law. If your an individual, frankly forget it. NFB, ACB,
and AFB, they won't take on a single person's task, casen point I had
$5000+ worth of assistive technology in a bag illegally seized and
destroyed, the perpetrators just lied to an official investigation and
i'm still out. I took the situation to both the state and national NFB
and ACB, neither would assist me. My point is unless it's an issue
effecting the as Thomas put it 80%+ of blind individuals it's not
financially feasible for them to do so. Frankly, it's rubbish, but
it's also reality.
As far as the issue of games vs. books I really don't see where we're
doing so great in the books category either. Please don't take this
next comment as a slight on bookshare, for it certainly is not and is
not intended to be, I am a bookshare member myself and enjoy the
service having also recommended it to several friends. I'm going to
speak of college textbooks, and while it's true bookshare does have
some, they don't have all, and they don't have the fifth edition of x
book but only the third, whereas the profesor wants edition five and
won't consent to you having an older edition of the book, forget the
fact that 90% of the text probably hasn't changed. To get it in an
accessible format, last time I went through college, I had to pay the
full price for a print book just to take that to disability services,
said sarcastically, just so they not me could contact the publisher
and get that book on disk, the publisher won't talk to me directly.
And does it come in that day, oh no, six weeks. I hope this has
changed.
Sorry, i didn't mean to get on a soap box with that  last one, but it
iritates me when people say things are easy to do and they are not.
Collaboration, as Thomas mentioned there are Linux utilities out there
that can do source code control but there are also windows
equivalents. I would recommend a source code control system such as
cvs or subversion for any project whether it's a single individual, or
two or more in a collaborative effort. As for setting up a web site
that's easy enough to do, paypal donations are no problem, i'm doing
both of those at the moment, the point is there are ways to make it
all come together. Skype for example can be used for computer to
computer calls if there's a time zone difference between developers or
long distance charges are a concern. It is possible in my opinion for
two or more individuals to work on games, as for standardized language
I don't think there is one, but if both developers are confident and
competent with C++ for example, use that as your standardized
language.
Just my two cents.
Dave.


On 5/28/10, Thomas Ward<thomasward1978 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>  Hi Dark,
>  Agreed. If we have to compare audio games to something let us try and
>  compare them to the small independant mainstream game market for the
>  PC. Although, it might be challenging it is at least something a one
>  to three man operation can achieve realistically. Those small
>  companies aren't trying to beat out Capcom or Nintendo, and neither
>  should we.
>  If we have to use Nintendo or somebody as a standard then let's aim
>  for the quality and standards of say the Super NES era. While old by
>  mainstream standards it would be extremely high considering the
>  majority of accessible games. there is nothing wrong with games like
>  Super Donkey Kong, Super Castlevania, Megaman, and other games of that
>  era. Even now I find games like that enjoyable, and my wife and son
>  enjoy them too.  Just because something is old and isn't the latest
>  and greatest doesn't make it necessarily bad.
>  As you mentioned yourself Chess is very old, but is still one of the
>  most enjoyable board games around. The rules haven't changed in 800
>  years or something like that. Should we now decide that it is old and
>  add new pieces, create a larger board, change the rules, etc just
>  because it hasn't been updated in so long? Of course not.
>  Same holds true for vidio games. Just because Super Castlevania is old
>  doesn't mean it is necessarily bad. It is true that it can't quite
>  compare to newer encarnations like the later roll playing Castlevania
>  games, but it still deserves to be considered a good game in its own
>  right. Judge it for the quality it is rather than trying to judge it
>  soully on what it lacks compared to modern games.
>
>  Smile.
>
>
>  On 5/28/10, dark<dark at xgam.org>  wrote:
>>  Again Josh, who! is going to do all this?
>>
>>  Changing the law is a long and complex pprocess, and as I said, is dmnably
>>  difficult when someone with big big money has a vested interest in the law
>>  being otherwise.
>>
>>  Then, "just get" ppeople toc ollaborate in that way on a game is, as Tom
>>  ward said, far easier said than done.
>>
>>  if you have the odd 500 k dollars floating around you might employ a bunch
>>  of developers for a couple of years who will work full time, get enough
>>  resources in terms of sound libraries, necessary third party developement
>>  components etc, and perhaps come up with a game of similar quality to sf 4
>>  etc.
>>
>>  As for the modification of a console, ---- see the above mentioning of
>>  law,
>>  then apply the word license, ditto with publicity, ---- heck, i can't even
>>  raise the thousand pounds or so it'd take for me to go to the site village
>>  exhibition as a representative of audiogames.net
>>
>>  This is why I strongly suggest that people, instead of considdering audio
>>  games comapred to the mainstream console markit, considder the
>>  independently
>>  produced pc games which have been built with similar amounts of resources,
>>  time and man power.
>>
>>  yes, audio games are stil behind in this respect, but the gap is
>>  changing, ---- especially with games like time of conflict, rail racer and
>>  entombed, and establishing a core of highly playable pc games with replay,
>>  expantion and variety is I think a far more realistic aime than trying to
>>  beat sony or nintendo.
>>
>>  Beware the grue!
>>
>>  Dark.
>
>  ---
>  Gamers mailing list __ Gamers at audyssey.org
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>



------------------------------

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End of Gamers Digest, Vol 51, Issue 199
***************************************



-- 
Josh Kennedy jkenn337 at gmail.com



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